49, Discussions with Aidan Hart, liturgical iconographer

Aidan Hart is a world-renowned iconographer. Aidan discusses his experience designing and installing liturgical works in ancient and modern cathedrals across the world.
His understanding of both Islamic and Christian architecture in the provision of his works is profound.

Aidan Hart Icons: https://aidanharticons.com/.

Episode Transcript

(00:15):
Hello Aiden, Hello Willian, loveme to see you again. Love to
see you again, and thank youfor coming back on our program Local Architecture.
Now for our Christmas special which youagreed to participate in way back and
I think May, which we're reallyreally happy about. And interestingly, it

(00:37):
just so happens that your your programwill go to air on Christmas Eve,
New Zealand time one o'clock in theafternoon, but in Britain it'll be midnight.
Yeah, Christmas Eve. Yeah,so that's really lovely timing. I
think that I was a novice monk. We would have all night vision for

(01:00):
the major feasts, so midnight we'dbe in church and finish at about seven
in the mornings. Midnight. Sucha strange time for me. That would
be midnight, midnight Christmas Eve.Yeah, okay, As I said,
this is every year I have aChristmas Special and having you with us regarding

(01:23):
your work in across the world,working in the turgical arts in churches and
cathedrals across the world. So yes, I think you had a name for
this program. Ah, you haveto remind me you thought you thought you
might call it Faces and Spaces becauseof I guess the icon connection and the

(01:49):
spatial connection, and this is anarchitectural program. So I would just like
to tell the listeners that that Aidenjoined us in May, if few days
after King Charles's coronation and described workingas their designer for the embroidered tree of
life panel for King Charles's anointing,and that was quite fresh in everybody's minds

(02:17):
at the time. And we wenton to discuss all lots of things as
to how your work is influenced bythe churches and cathedrals that you work in
across the world, and also howyou may feel that your work influences those
who experience those spaces aside, dowe talk about faces and spaces because and

(02:42):
the coronation screen for King Charles's coronationwas a point relating to this that churches
all to do with relationship between people'sultimately, but it involves the material world.
The material world is like a giftto a friend or I loved one,
that the materiality of that gift expressesyour face, your person. So

(03:07):
matter is just a mediator between persons. If you gave me a gift that
I grabbed the gift off you hadwalked away, say a box of chocolates.
Had ate the chocolates, well,that chocolate box would be dead for
me because I'm not seeing it asa gift. But if I say,
oh thanks, Rosalind, you knowthat gift becomes an expression of your love

(03:27):
for me, of you, ofa friendship, of you being my cousin.
So that matter then has a faceto it. So this is what
I'm interested in. An architecture,particularly church architecture, where you're creating a
space where you relate to one another, You relate to God, relate to
the angels, relate to the materialworld. But everything has a little card
on it saying from God with love. So just love this idea of architecture

(03:49):
which makes stuff, that the stuffcreates space, and the church architecture,
a good church should use that spaceand that stuff to mediate a relation.
I like to think you're three ratherthan two. I think that our materialistic
aid has got bogged down with twoand me and matter, or me and
my friend. But it should betriadic, you know, like when I

(04:12):
see a person to me and they'renot just a wonderful being, but to
me the revelation of some of somethingof God's love. And this is the
meaning of the inclination I think.But anyway, I'm jumping the gun incarnation
incarnation. Yeah, because our vicarfrom some who didn't know you and has
followed your work for a long time, in the middle of winter, he,
I think, inspired by your recentpresence, you know, with coronation,

(04:38):
he ran a series of courses midwinterand they were called I think Icons
and Incarnation or Icons and Incarnation,and he referred to some of your work
as well as he discussed works byVengo and it was called Art and Beauty
and Incarnation and and yeah, hewas using icons but also working with abstract

(05:00):
contemporary van Go and stuff. Yeah, he's just in the middle of another
one right now, actually a series. Yeah. I really enjoyed my time
with him. We had a coffeeof from the Lovely Cafe in the Auckland
Art Gallery. Yeah, a veryspecial person. But his teacher at Oxford
University was my spiritual father, killus us where so here was a sort

(05:21):
of a connection there, like brotherswith the same spiritual father. Ah.
Yeah, I'm actually going up toAuckland in a few days. I've been
wanting to go back ever since thattrip I made last year to visit you.
And I went up there in Augustlast year when you came over to
New Zealand for the icon exhibition atthe Auckland Art Gallery. And I got

(05:45):
such a kick out of being inPrince's Street and around the gallery and in
the area of the university down byPrincess Street. And I've just been wanting
to go back ever since. SoI'm going up to see some relatives and
your sister in a few days.And reavers at that hole. There were
some buildings. I just really enjoyedthat time in Auckland. So it's been
late. I was put up bythe Art Gallery in a house sort of

(06:11):
in the century, just on theedge of the park there, and I
had about five days really where Iused to be university for three years,
and I was surprised how little hadchanged. Actually something changed, but it's
like going back in time. Theyhave a beautiful park there. You've got
some older buildings, you've got somenew ones, and yeah, no,
I've got the same rich associations.And people often asked me about in the

(06:34):
icon tradition, about the new andthe old. You know, how does
the new icon making process relate tothe old, And sometimes I give an
example the Auckland Art Gallery. Soyou've got this original gallery which is basically
French chateau influence, isn't it right, And then whenever it was the seventies
whatever, they added the extension,which is like white minimalism. But it

(06:57):
works really, really well. Doyou have to play in the seventies?
Interestingly, it's obviously different, butunless you stop and really study it,
you don't realize it actually is amodern extension, somehow married than you and
the old. Beautifully, it didnot castige, They didn't imitate the French
chateau design. That there was asensitivity and a desire to be in relationship

(07:19):
with what there was. I thinksome architects of other egotistic I want to
rubber stamp the ego over everything.But in this case there was a sort
of a listening to what was there, but being true to twenty century architecture
at the same time. It's abrilliant work and it really opened your experience
up to the park. There wasthat wonderful cafe there. I used to

(07:41):
meet your father there for lunch actually, you know, when I was a
student, and we'd always go thereand look out over the park and that
sort of lovely modern brick extension.Yeah, yeah, we're having that discussion.
Yeah. Sorry, Yeah, I'vebeen doing a little bit of rereading
of a wonderful book on an Agiasof Fear and Constantinople Onstanba, just to

(08:07):
refreshed some of my thoughts about spaceand face and light and all these things.
So I jotted down some things.I wondered if we could we could
sort of discuss that, not justwith Vguas of Fear, but this whole
thing of space and space and lightand also sound because architectures, architecture,

(08:28):
particular orthodox architecture, involves all thesenses, and at least in the past,
I think we're re gaining this abilitynow that sitting in the past is
an incredible sort of symbiosis between forexample, acoustics, the skillful architectural adjustment
of angles of walls and reveals,which we discussed last time, so that

(08:52):
there's a sort of a choreography,a dance involving all the different arts.
So the art chitect just didn't makea box and just leave it to the
artists to do what they could withthis rather body designed symphony of spaces that
actually designed with in mind the artistsmaking mosaics or friscoes inside, also in

(09:15):
mind to the acoustics, not justthe spoken acoustics, but the sung acoustics,
even the marble that they might havechosen to line the walls. And
this is what Bancheba talks of,is that this a strong element of water
and light moving like water in thedesign of Vaguancy if it was really close

(09:35):
to the mosoph for this, soeven chosen the marble floor slabs and the
marble that lined the walls to imitatethis water because some marbles okay, yeah,
wavy water, yes, And theMiddle Eastern architects were very much into
sort of water, and the theOttoman gardens was water. Yeah. Do

(10:03):
you know why water is important?I know, but I'm just asking what
you think why water is important forthese Muslim Christian gardens. Do you know
what for these gardens, because there'snot a lot of it. That's a
bit prosaic, isn't it? Oris it life giving? It's it's paradise
because the the four rivers of Paradise. So we tend to think of a

(10:28):
garden as something you walk around thatit's much more a place of contemplation in
the Islamic gardens, so often youwould have four rivers coming out, as
it were, four ponds radiating up, and you would be in the center
and you contemplate this. So you'rein paradise and you're contemplating these four rivers
going out. So the water wasan evocation of paradise. And of course

(10:50):
if you live in a dry country, then water is associated with for the
luxury and produces weanery, et cetera. So have you it's iconographic. A
garden is an icon it's not justa pleasure of all experience farm that's actually
an image of something higher. That'sright, the Islamic garden of the Christian

(11:11):
garden in the Middle East. Haveyou been to them with these reverlets of
water. I've been to one reconstructionof one at a place called Hampton Court.
It's not Hampton hand Palace in England. It's it's another one and it's
sort of revived. It's in theMiddland somewhere, and they reconstructed the Islamic

(11:33):
garden there with the sort of rayradiation you're inspiring me. I'm going to
call into the Hamilton Gardens later inthe Week and the Hamilton Gardens if you
look them up there, they're amazing. They're in Hamilton, but they've designed
a garden for very very many cultures. And I'll see, I'll have a
look and see what if I havean Islamic garden there. Aiden was talking

(11:54):
about Son Sophia, the cathedral andIstanbuld just in case people didn't get there.
Yes, so if we can perhapstalk about the different elements that make
up this successful church architecture. SoI think a lot of principles said that
can be applied to secular, domestic, even public architecture. So we've really

(12:20):
talked about the stuff of the building, which creates a space. And it's
interesting that the Greek term for thespace under the dome because most Meastern Christian
architecture is centered on the dome.We're used to the basilica design, which
is basically rectangle with an apse atthe end. The apps is made of
a half cylinder and the top ofthat you've got a quarter dome. They're

(12:41):
basically rectangle with a bit of roundthem are stuck at the end. But
the Eastern church architecture is centered morethink of a cube on the top of
the cube, you've got a cylinder, the drum, then on top of
that you've got a dome, andthen you've got the app so it's actually
more like a womb. We're talkingabout incarnation here, coming up to the
Nativity, and of course Christmas isabout God in dwelling in the whole of

(13:01):
the world that he created, notjust becoming a human person a man,
but also entering the whole of hismaterial creation. So so the church reflects
that. So you've got a dome, which is like a womb. And
it's interesting that the Greek term forthe space under the dome is callichorus,

(13:22):
which means beautiful space. So thenwe're not hups of the object of the
dome. As incredible as that isthat Saint Sophia's I mean, it's the
biggest dome in the world until what'sit, imp I can't remember, but
you know, for for over thousandyears, which was the biggest dome,
so great feet. But the Byzantineswhen so much interested in the dome as

(13:43):
the space, the beautiful space clellichorusunderneath. That's wonderful. Yeah, so
you've got got matter, you've gotspace. But also I think we discussed
last time you got light. Sowhen of Byzantine described in any church,
but the descriptions of our years offear, they talk about the movement.

(14:05):
They don't know where to sit intheir eyes because it's so much so they're
not just sort of sitting still lookingat the static, beautiful object, but
they actually being drawn to travel throughthe space the way the light moves.
So you've got form, you've gotspace, you've got movement where light drawers

(14:26):
are around, and fourthly you've gottime. It's interesting that they would often
describe and this umbilicular term for thesepoetic descriptions of architecture, and they weren't
really poetic, had to sort ofpaint a picture with words that they would
talking about the journey from the west, moving toward the church. They would

(14:46):
see this courtyard which was like agarden, had a fountain in the middle,
and you'd enjoy that and you cooldown because of the fountain. So
they described that. Then they noticedthese anarctics, the sort of slightly darker
space, so they're drawn into that. Then they see light coming down from
above into the narctics of the moveinto that. So the architecture involves the

(15:07):
movement through time, so you've gotthat other metal fourth dimension. And then
you've got sound. You know,the acoustics and these church are incredible.
You have have a reverberation of elevenpoint three seconds, so when you're choir
singing, the church are singing backto them. It's like a two part
choir. You've got the choir andthe building is responding. So I think

(15:28):
this unity that they had. Andthen finally they've got the faces of the
images, the frescoes or mosaics.So as I said earlier, you're the
architecture is like an icon, soyou don't just see blank or even beautiful
walls. You've got your marble downbelow, but above that you know fiscoes
of mosaic, so the architect isactually creating a surface for painted or mosaic

(15:52):
icons, so that the walls thendisappeared away. I think, as we
discussed, I did up the halfof my appearance and now have died my
New Zealand parents. We restored somebuildings and made one of the buildings an
old barn into a chapel, andI frescoed all around, and I took
some of my students here recently.It's a very small chapel. It's only

(16:15):
about probably five meters by five ormight be more by it. But because
it's committee fresco, it creates thisatmosphere when you walk in and you're not
walking into so much stone building,but you're walking into heaven because all the
saints are like they've been standing thereworshiping, garden on stuff. And we
just joined in for a few minutes, an how I didn't leave. So

(16:36):
you've got this amazing sense of thewar's disappearing and you've you're enter your family,
then the community. I'm loving thisidea that the building isn't just the
object. The building is a vesselor a vehicle to experience time and it's
it's yeah, I love that ideathat it's the building is very fluid,

(16:59):
it's very transparent, even though it'smade of stone, it's actually connecting with
tup past and present and light.And in our last sorry just jump in.
Our last recent previous session was withan architect from Paris. It was
actually a key we but he's currentlydoing a He won a competition for a

(17:21):
five thousand student university out of Cairo, and he was talking about this and
we started talking about shadow and lightand how the shadow it is not just
the object of the ability. You'vegot the shadow which creates. Yeah,
we got into this sort of thing, and then I mentioned how you had
been describing the making of the windowcells and stunts for fear and how they

(17:45):
were designed to reflect light. Andhe was quite struck by that because we
were in this discussion around you know, Islamic and Middle Eastern environments. Yeah,
that idea of a dark and shadowworking together really important. And I've
noticed that the Mount Athos and Greecebuy was for a total of two years.
The walls of every thick without cement. You need to provide the necessary

(18:11):
strength by thickness, so the windowshave deep reveals. So I really noticed
when effect of this is this amazingcontrast looking darken light. So light's coming
in through the window round the sidethat's dark, so you've got this sort
of contrast of light and dark.So that creates a really mysterious effect.
And so basically you've got a cube, but you've got a drum that's sworden

(18:36):
the cube often so then you've gotto columns to support that. So even
though it's basically a cube. Withthe dome, you've got these form massive
columns, and that creates all sortsof depth. They've got shadow light,
shadow light, and that sort ofdraws your eye around. You can't see
everything at once. And in fact, in as of fear, the columns

(18:57):
around the outside they are given ain a name this man called poor less
cil entry. He described phil soonafter it was finished. And these these
columns, he describes them as frozendance. Frozen dance, dance. It's

(19:18):
like a dance, okay, likethe person who way back at the start
he described I know someone who livedabout his time is built in this.
Essentially he describes these columns, andso he goes in to describe the dome.
It's like a pot spun on awheel, potter's wheel. So for
him, the dome isn't just astatic thing. It's actually spinning, and

(19:41):
he describes it like this, sothat the architecture is spinning. And of
course down below you've got the choir. You'd always have two choirs, and
you'd have this movement left choir,right choir, and you'd normally have a
cantle who moves between them. Andthen certain times in the liturgy deacons,
but you had come out of thenorth wall of what's called the icon screen

(20:04):
that persists all around the church,then go back in. So the dome
was like something spinning, something moving. And the word rus is used quite
a lot, which means dance andchoir or related. So again we don't
we tend to think of arch predictureas a static thing, but they didn't
think of it like that. Itis wonderful, just this wonderful description of

(20:27):
this Paul Cidentury. He says,as a helmet spins the year in shape's
form, a helmet rising above intothe boundar's ear spins it from both sides
into a sphere raiding as the heavens. The dome bestrides the roof of the
church. So he actually talks ofthe dome spinning and forming the ear inside

(20:52):
it. Okay, so I justlove this idea of this wonderful new information.
Mm hmmm. Yeah, but it'svery interesting. We we we sort
of read back into these things ourown ideas, but in fact, if
you read contemporary descriptions Byzantine architecture inthis case, you get a completely different
view. They saw it differently,you know, they didn't see beauty something

(21:15):
static and balanced. They saw beautyas relationship, as movement. Relationship,
Yeah, very much so. Andthe word art, of course, I
think we might have mentioned, comesfrom the ancient word ours, which means
to fitly join together. That's that'swhat that's what that means effectively an articulate
person. So already you're talking withrelationship and movement, aren't you. When

(21:37):
you've got two people, there's alwaysa movement given. So art isn't just
an object, it's it's a relationship. It's actually about fitting together. Yeah,
means meaning. I'd just like tosay that aid Aidan's work is really
painting icons and breckeating all sorts ofother liturgical works. That is your Yeah.

(22:06):
Yeah. So I was a sculptorin New Zealand. So I started
carving icons and relief work in stoneand wood. Then I started painting panel
icons in each tempertu. Then Istarted frescoing as well, and in the
last fifteen years I've done off amosaic and also been involved in making lighting
for churches. We can talk aboutthat a little. How light is used

(22:29):
in Orthodox churches as part of thedance, part of the symphony of party
choreography, but the last ten yearshave been involved a lot with architecture,
both helping to design or adapt newchurches, but also as a consultant interiors
of churches. In fact, I'mgoing up to Durham on Tuesday. These
are a church there. They wantme to come up with the scheme in

(22:52):
the long term for how to friscoet et cetera, what sort of furnishings.
And then two days later I'm goingup to a Scottish castle. This
tends to be in this case togive him a price for restoring some war
paintings in a chapel inside the castlewhich have been destroyed with a water league.
But the same family had given landfor a new monastery, so I'm

(23:15):
working with the church architect on thisnew monastery. So I'll be involved with
designing the new church there. SoI'm I've been involved with the whole joining
all these things together, and thebeginning I was making individual things, but
now I'm interested in joining them togetherlike a conductor as well as a player
in the orchestra. It really excitesme, really exciting. And of course

(23:37):
you know your work as always withothers and relating with others and having other
makers and teams and apprentices and thatis all part of it too, the
time involved and the people and gettingall of the people in their time to
produce the various works. That's right. I had this love working in teams.
In fact, a New Zealand apprenticejust derived three days ago. He's

(23:59):
going to work with me for afew years. And I met him when
I did a short workshop at theAuckland Gallery last year. Really yeah,
I was there to give some talksrelated to the icon exhibition, but I
did a little short workshop with aboutI don't know twelve people doing basically water
colors on paper and this young manwho was probably about twenty three. Then
had a discussion after where it's actuallyin the copy place you mentioned and we

(24:23):
and you said, well, what'sthe best way to train? And I
mentioned the possibilities including apprenticeship. Helived another side of the world, so
I didn't think twice about it.The amount of lated emails thinking be your
apprentice, Wow, that's wonderful.So that came out of being present at
Auckland that last August a year ago. That's Mark Fisher. And then I've

(24:45):
got another news here to coming nextyear. Yes, she's going to be
sort of short apprenticeship longer if shecan. We can sort things out with
visas and that. But yeah,I've got two new Zealanders to one with
one next year a part time adventus. So I want to hand on what
I've learned. I mean, themore I learned, the more I I

(25:07):
know, I don't know s.I'm a master handing on of wisdom.
I'm a co learner that I'm awareof myself. How slow the learning process
is if you do it all yourself. I think you learn much more,
particularly if you've got someone to sortof help your avoid mistakes and just point
you in the right direction, andyou must learn as you go. Having
people learning from you definitely well.In fact, I asked Mark yesterday I'm

(25:30):
designing an icon and asked his thoughtsabout background color, so that it was
great. You know, we hada dialogue and we came up with the
conclusion pretty quickly. I was fluffingaround in my head really not coming to
a conclusion, that is, verbalizingbetween ourselves the pros and conuns that different
colors. In three minutes, wecame up with a solution that it might
take me half an hour and perhapsit would have been the wrong decision.

(25:52):
So yeah, yeah, we're learningtogether. Yeah yeah, No, that
sounds really successful that that came outof arriving in museum last year. That
you were talking about the choreography.I mean, I didn't expect to get
so much from the coronation, thewhole coronation service, but there was so
much going on. But really itwas so beautiful. It was one kind

(26:15):
of incredible. It was a choreography. That's what I got from the church
and the movement and the passage ofpeople and people moving in the sort of
ordered way as to where they weremeant to go. But it was it
was kind of amazing just seeing iton television. Well, a month ago
we had a meeting. It wascalled a Mansion House. That's the City

(26:37):
of London, the Mayor of theCity of London sort of headquarters, really
incredibly grand room. But the functionof this meeting was for us makers and
designers of the screen to explain tothe donors because the money came from the
City of London and from the differentliveries, the guilds, the ancient organizations.
So there were questions afterwards. Oneman asked me, well, why

(27:02):
do you have to conceal this anointing? You know, we democratic country.
Why do you could of cover thingsup? Would have been bitter, just
sort of let it all be open. So I to think on the hoof,
and I said two things. Well, first of all, the most
wonderful things in life are mysterious.I've known you, I was for sixty
years, and I do know you, but you are a human person and

(27:25):
your mystery and immediately I think Iknow you, then I've lost you.
Always surprising me these knowing and unknowing. So I said, well, the
most wonderful things I'm just mysterious.So putting a screen there is an acknowledgment
that this is a profound mystery.But the other hand, I said,
the screen is also a revelation ina clear way than if you actually just

(27:48):
saw this man having oil put onus in Yeah, it's it's a clear
manifestation of the meaning of that action. So in this way, ritual went
hand in hand with form. Butanyway, the thing I'm going to mention
about the choreography was one of thespeakers was actually the soldier in charge of
bringing that screen on. There weresix soldiers carrying them, and the amount

(28:11):
of work that went into that simplemovement that took about thirty seconds was enormous.
Yeah, the skill involved in you'rewhere do they come out, where
do the screens come up? Whichdoor? How do you move them so
it looks elegant? Where do thesoldiers stand like? They realized pretty quickly
that if you had two soldiers ona corner, it just wouldn't work.
So you had six soldiers being thethree piers, and then two had to

(28:33):
go to the side and then oneon each corner holding them. So he
showed the pictures of all the planning, So that simple movement had a lot
of thought behind it. But asyou're viewing it, you knew that this
couldn't have happened even though it justflowed. You knew that it couldn't have
happened without real with all of whatyou've just said going on behind the scenes.

(28:53):
And also he's just talking about ritual. I mean, I didn't think
I knew much about ritual, butjust seeing that, as you say,
you don't see the whole thing,so that literally the mystery you kind of
it gives you a chance to sortof Yeah, I think that sort of
yea, that they're not seeing thewhole thing and the ritual definitely, you

(29:15):
know, it has such an incredibleplace and sort of extraordinary events like that.
Well, I think I was talkingto Mark and I Apprentice yesterday about
how thing used to going in NewZealand, and it has become quite a
secular place and it's quite trendy.I think to think of ritual as sold
to fine but no, I meanwe acknowledged the richness of marticulture. That's

(29:36):
all senter the ritual. Yes,Now the hard is the ritual for particular
function. When you meet another tribe, you would sort of reiterate your givingss
from the past, not to sortof start killing each other, but to
okay with with the toll drug givances. Now let's sort of be in harmony.
So that's a ritual thing in thecontext of which is a really important

(29:59):
dynamic thing happen. So I thinkyou seeming has got to be careful as
it tries to rEFInd find its sortof identity that you reject ritual. Because
ritual embodies the wisdom of the past, It creates a context you can have
relationships. It actually supports re relationshipin the present, your ritual, because
it's something you hear from the part. Isn't the enemy of the present.

(30:22):
I've found that it supports the presentand riches the present. Yes, and
it enables to encapsulate. It's hardto put into the words for me,
but the ritual enables then to concapsulatein the present so that all of us
can experience it such such a sortof big thing that was so much history
behind it, but we can experienceit now because it's kind of well you're

(30:48):
talking about the icons and sort ofthe abstraction and the symbolism, you know,
enables many many people, lay peopleand everybody to connect with an idea
through symbolism and through ritual. Howto prescribe it in the way that you
do. It's a language is inthis like there was a lot in the
ritual of the coronation which people didn'tunderstand. Some we did. We know,

(31:10):
putting a crown on your head meanssomething. Also a lot of people
saying they said to me that theanointing was the most moving part and part
because they saw this king being strippeddown to just plain white garments and then
he goes and to be hidden away, and then he comes out and has
robed in wealth. So obviously something'shappened between being stripped down to humanity.

(31:34):
Something happens behind the screen. Thenhe comes out bedeeled. So in other
words, this anointing has made himsomething more than he is. Anointing is
essentral to the becoming a Christian.You're baptized but also anointed. So you
made a king or queen, aprince or princess. There's a transformation.
You're you're a person, but aperson who's been restored to a princely vole

(31:59):
within the world, so that thatritual sort of encapsulates, crystallizes, manifest
something it was hidden. Yeah,and I think that not what don want
to waste your time, mate,but that humanity of him stripping right back
he was like a human person.But the fact that he had so much
support from all of his elders aroundhim, you think, oh, this,

(32:22):
this vulnerable human person is so humanthat he's got these people who know
what their roles are, but they'redoing it with absolute kind of tenacity and
they're all supporting him. And thatwas another whole kind of you made you
realize this guy is taking on ahuge life role and he can't do it,

(32:43):
but it's so big that he's gotthese loving, supportive people all around
them, and that was quite moving. And then of course, as you
say, he comes out and allof his new robes and things. Yeah,
and that's not just that something thatdoesn't just happened to the king.
That that's an icon and image whatcan happen to all of us. Yeah,

(33:04):
you wanted to study architecture. Youdidn't lock yourself in the room over
six years and become an architect,your panic, part of the community,
the architectural school. Yeah, youwent through rituals, going to class every
days of ritual so all these thingsbecome more than just Rosland Diarby. You
know, you're drawing on thousands ofyears of experience of architecture funneled through your

(33:25):
lecturers and your fellow students. Soso what happened in the combination, there's
actually a little image of what canhappen to all of us supporting other people.
And yeah, that's a great,great, great way to see it.
I mentioned Earli about lighting, howlighting in church worship, it's in

(33:45):
the Orthodox monastic worship, isn't justa functional thing. So you can read
or not trip over. It's actuallyused to participate in hitherny worship because it's
thought that the heavenly bodies can praiseGod. One of the last sums of
the Bible says, praise them sunand moon, praise them all these stars

(34:06):
and lights. There's this wonderful ideathat it's just not us humans using our
lips to praise God, but allthe creation, in its own way is
praising Him. So during an ordnightservice it mount Athos, you would like,
depending on the importance of the feast, you would like more or less
candles. You'd like these massive chandeliers, and you'd swing them. When I
say swing, though really big,so they would one swing might take five

(34:30):
seconds, it was such a bigart. And then you had, apart
from the single chandelier with one chain, you would have the corona, which
is like normally an eight sided circleas it were, and not knocking you
as eight side, adopting him ifyou like, And that has vertical change.

(34:50):
When that swung, that goes backand forwards. In the middle you've
got a circular motion. So it'sto say you've got these different orbits of
the heavens and this is the thenight. There's no electricity, no blearing
lights everywhere, no outside light,so the only light are the oil lamps
in front of the icons. Butthen you've got this sort of dance of

(35:10):
the heavenly bodies around. So lightingthere is used as part of the architectural
symphony of phrase. I just lovethis light being used symbolically, not just
just practically. And that's why darknessis important to When darkness it doesn't work
during the daytime and you've got onlylight, we've got light everywhere, you

(35:30):
can't really play with light. Butif it's dark, then that's like a
blank canvas. Then you can paintlight onto it. That's why a lot
of services, well most services areat night. It gives the opportunity to
use light and dark to effect.And I think if we appreciate light and
dark, we get closer to lightand the spiritual, you know, we

(35:51):
get closer to the spread of life, don't we. We understand light and
dark exactly and darkness and orthodox theologyis it can be evil doesn't exist in
itself, it's just the misuse ofthe good or the absence of rediction of
good. So darkness has that pejodativesense, like icons of Hades of Christ
descend into Hades Deliver, Adam andEve. Hades is dark there, But

(36:15):
also darkness can be the opposite,can be found presence of God in a
mystery, but it's so profound wecan't perceive it. So a black hole
in physics, it's not actually awhole. In one sense, it's the
presence of incredible mass. That thismass is to so massive that time slows

(36:37):
down so much that though within itlight is traveling out as far as we
can see in the light never getsto us. So what appears to us
a black hole, isn't that anincredible presence condensed matter? So behind Christ
often an icon, so the transfigurationicon, he's got a deep, deep
blue background, and then round theoutside he got light, but in the

(36:58):
center it gets darker. The opposite, isn't it. If you have a
light bulb, it's light close toit, then dark or further away.
But here it's the opposite. It'sdark and the center of light on the
outside. So their darkness is profoundpresent. So often in the Old Testament,
God would appear to someone like Mosesas darkness as well as lights.
So a Mount Sinai who had lightningbut also a dark cloud. Yeah.

(37:22):
I think dark and light, ashe says, profoundly spiritual, meaning not
just good and bad, but moreprofounding known in the unknowability of God and
the no ability of God. Yeahyeah, yeah, yeah, and as
you said that, the heavens andthe cosmos, and yeah, the light
the stars at night and yeah,this is morning. I came across an

(37:45):
amazing illuminated manuscript, and the onewe have at the moment is ninth century.
It's now in the Vatican that it'sactually a copy of a sixth century
manuscript, and it shows the prophetDavid, who is a composer of hymns
of the Sands. But around himyou've got some circles, and in the
circles are choirs. That what's fascinatingis that though solemn, sorry, David

(38:10):
has painted so viewed from the frontis facing us, so that's sort of
horizontal. These I think six circleswith singers in and profits and various other
people. They are like sort ofcan imagine people standing in a circle,
then you'll lie down facing upwards.Yeah, so that's how these people are

(38:30):
depicted. So Basically they're depicted andso they're looked at by God from above,
and they're also looking up. Soyou've got the horisontal element because we
see David face to face, butalso you've got the vertical that God's looking
down. This icon shows the worldnot from our point of view only,
but God's point of view. Butalso they're looking up at God. So

(38:52):
you've got this, this, andthis. Yeah. Yeah, vertical ascending
and descending. And I think that'sanother important part of architecture that it's not
just horizontal, but you've got thevertical. Yeah, and particularly with church
architectures experience, it's expressing that horizontalityof the people together and communion together on

(39:13):
the ground, but also the verticalyeah, yeah, yeah. And there
is a bit theology called Dionysius Oliopigite, probably a sixth century writer, and
he talks about when you have thosemovements, plush the circle because he talks
about the choirs of angels with Godand the center. They just sort of
dancing around God praising him. Soit's all centered on worship of God.

(39:37):
That I don't need to go outand do work to get food because they
don't need food so they're just continuedin a circle praising God. But then
God in the incarnation at Christmas,comes down and then then we're raised up
to God. So you've got ifyou if you combine a circular movement with
vertical, then ed up for thespiral. Yeah, so spiral is a

(39:58):
circle sort of stretched like the spring. So that's another part of church architecture.
There's always a spiral there. Soif you enter a church's frescoed all
around you into the horizontal, soyou've got normally you've got images of repentance,
purification in the first layer called anarchect like so narctics. And then

(40:19):
you move forward and into you're closeand closer to the Old into the light.
But then when you're in the Oldin the nave under the dome,
you see you realize that there's awhole hierarchy of paintings going up. So
at the bottom you've got saints fromthe last two thousand years, and then
you've got scenes in the Night ofChrist two thousand years ago, and then
you've got profits from the Old Testamenton the drum, then angels the First

(40:44):
greator then Christ in the dome.So you go on horizontally, and you've
got the circle of the dome andoften the and you've got this Westminster abby.
In fact, the floor where thecombination occurred has what's called a cosmoty
pavement. It's like mosaic on thefloor and circles, lots of circles spinning
up to other circles. So thisthis this movement forward and the circle and

(41:07):
the ascent and descent indicated the fiscoscreates as an Asian spiral that goes up,
comes down, goes up, soGod became man, so man can
be drawn up to God. Andit goes on and on like this.
Yeah, yeah, and constant likelife. Life is never sort of static,

(41:29):
because I mean we're just always movingforward backward time as a relative as
well. And I guess in thechurch you can get them with ritual you
can get that sense of connection ofpast as well. And then I guess
that Yeah. Literally, if yougo to my website ww dot aidenhard icons

(41:54):
dot com and look under Frescoes theFisco paid, you see a wall painting
I just finished locally, it's inthe apps, so it's go occurred,
and that talks about this union ofpast present and future that you just indicated
consialentes. So you've got Christ there, so he's present in the present,

(42:15):
but also above him the sunrise coloredclouds are painted in and that suggests Christ's
second coming in the future. Sothe colored because when the sun rises,
you get this colored cloud, Soyou're looking at Christ as he is now
and present with us, but alsoChrist coming to us out of the future.
But also I've put on the leftdown below Bethleyhem and on the right

(42:37):
Jerusalem a sheep coming out, sothat's like Christ's incarnation and the past and
Bethlehem, but Jerusalem, and thenhe's crucified in Jerusalem, so that indicates
the past. So past, present, and future or combined in this one
painting. How does that sort offeel for you in a sort of transformational
sense while you're doing it or doyou is it a experience for you?

(43:00):
Or is it a piece of work? Or do you change as you're doing
it? All those three? Really? All those three yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, so yeah.I mean the planning stage is where one
is trying to find a way ofexpressing this union a past, present of
future. I mean I was exposedto this taking my students on a field
trip to Rome about twenty ten,I think it was, but I noticed

(43:22):
that most most of the old mosaicsand the apses had these sunrise clored clouds.
I thought, what are they allabout? And then I realized it
was Christ coming to us out ofthe future. So I got interested in
this. So I've done a numberof works recently where I'm sort of drawing

(43:43):
together past, present in future.So in this particular on each space is
different. This church is dedicated toSaint Christopher and has relics of some saints
as well, so the priest wantedthose five saints. Try those four saints
to either side. Then I said, we love nature in England, so
let's bring nature in to sort ofrelate it to the creator. So I

(44:07):
included flowers and sheep and things likethat, but all not just sort of
as add ons, but part ofthat whole theological symbolism. So the design
work was really interesting, and thatwas out of community as well, and
when I came up with some designs, but then I had discussions with various
people and we adapted it and changedit. So far I was responsible for

(44:27):
it, I mean, other peoplehad a lot of input. And then
for the painting of it. Thereare a lot of technical things involved that
you are how I prepared the wall, so it's going to be durable.
I like to paint things that theylast at least one thousand years, so
I was doing my best to comparethe water the wall. So and then
I had apprentices helping me, soI pay apprentices to help out. So

(44:49):
the painting of it was a communeand event as well. The joyous thing
for me was to have feedback frompeople, because some people were posed to
having it. They didn't want change. They thought having an image of people
saints on the wall might distract them. I don't know how they thought of
that, but they thought it woulddistract them. So quite a few older
people were against the idea. Butanyway went ahead, and over the months

(45:10):
I've been asked to go back togive talks and for the blessing of it
by the archbishop. So people comeup to me and said, well,
actually I was supposed to this initially, but now they've bot it. Oh,
it's the fantastic. You know,we're but we're we're entering another depth
of worship. You know, we'renot hearing things that we're seeing in theology
as well. Yeah, and havingyour apprentices you know, you're actually going

(45:31):
to have other people working to producethese works, so that's as well.
That's that team and that teaching andthat and that making and craftsmanship that you
have to you have to communicate tothe people who are actually doing the work
as well for you. That's itand that and the balance is keeping unified

(45:52):
vision. So I've got to bequite strict, you know, how to
do things in the sense that Ican't just let them riff highly fail.
It would just be a hotch.On the other hand, you've got to
give them certain freedom within those parameters, you know, to find their voice.
So that's a bit of a balancesometimes so that the priority is always
given to the people are going tosee it, so that we've got to

(46:14):
make as good as possible so itworks theologically and liturgically is phechically for the
viewer, we disappear and we'd beforgotten. But on the other hand,
also one's trying to make it agood experience for the students, so they
learn a not technically, but alsothey have a bit of freedom to have
their input. They're not just sortof photocopy machines serving my vision, So

(46:37):
I enjoy that dynamic, yeah,as well as having to be quite strict
so that you're actually achieving the visionthat's there, so that you know that
the viewers are going to have thebest experience, you know, likely,
Yeah, yours like yours an architect, it's your client comes first. Yes,
yes, yes, this is aquestion. Do you find that sometimes

(46:59):
it knows what end result they want, but then they start telling you how
to get it, whereas you asan arkid, do you want to know
what the end result is that theyrequire? But do you find your something
well, why they ask me todesign if they want to design it?
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, So
how do you get around that?Out of interest? You don't want to
say, you know stuff? Youvery good question. I think the communication

(47:25):
point that the briefing process. TheyI think the client realizes that through that
initial briefing pro I'm very sort ofvery careful about how I produce a brief
in response to that first meeting sothat they know that I'm doing the work
that is required to meet their brief. But we the brief is an open

(47:47):
as an ongoing dialogue tool, youknow, and but yeah, there is
a bit of that just recently doingthe working drawings, you know, the
technical stuff for the build consent,which is what we do. Our job
was also to get the thing consentedso we can build this work. And
I'm noticing recent clients thinking they cantell me how to do detailing and construction

(48:14):
this, and you know, panickingabout the consent, you know, and
all of this is such a wasteof time because I know what needs to
be done to get thing consented.So that's been it was quite a recent
experience of that. Definitely what theywant, but not how to do it.
Your job is how to how todo it? Yeah, and then
they relax and think, oh,thank thank you know so I think the
process of confrontation is also part ofit. And then they've put up their

(48:36):
kind of resistance and then you know, they realize, oh, okay,
this is what you do. Thisis you're delivering this thing for me.
So yeah, someone said to methat obviously people are commissioning some church for
me or a piece of architecture inyour cage, but in a sense the
commissioning you as a person as wellas an object, they're going to have
that trust in the company was byreference or the light past work or whatever.

(48:59):
But it's a building of trust,isn't it. So at some point
they're going to trust you to comeup with something that's going to do hopefully
get planned permission. There's some peoplefind it difficult to hand over things,
so they were to get control ofit, which actually makes the worse results.
So you must have you must havehad experience of that. Yes,
I've been asked to submit expression ofinterest for mosaics for Westminster Cathedral, not

(49:23):
at the abbey, but the cathedral. The Westminster Cathedral. It's a big
Catholic cathedral in London, a beautifulwork which was designed to be mosaic,
massive space. So they're doing itstep by step. Twice have been asked
to submit designs, but it wasall sort of designed by committee. There
was a committee there and the generalconsensus is that the work that that commission

(49:45):
asked that ars hasn't been very successful. It's been far too much and that
so it's designers have asked individuals todesign, but big choice and their choice
of people, the method used ithasn't worked really, So now they've got
a different structure to commission work andthe archbishop has involved is thinks for these

(50:07):
sort of theologically obviously liaturitically, hesaid, a priest a bishop. So
yeah, the commissioning process is reallyimportant. In fact, I don't know
if we discussed this, but Iwas approached by Chichester Cathedral two years ago.
This is a major cathedral in thesouth of England, Anglican Cathedral to
help them set up a liturgical artcenter. So I've got two problems.

(50:29):
Yeah, this is going really well. So the two problems to it.
One is training people and the skillof liturgical arts, not just painting but
fisco mosaic carving. So my twopast apprentices were now fully trained, are
down there. The've moved out andthey're taking on apprentices so in panel painting,
mosaic frisco stone, wood carving andthe associated skills. But the second

(50:52):
element, and I really emphasized thisto the pre center who approached me,
we need to train commissioners how tobreak to know because not in the church,
they're not many specialists in church architecture. So if I come to you
for a church, I kind ofsaid, could you just build a space

(51:13):
for us, and you'll be ata loss. You know what what's the
formability? So I've got to briefyou how do how does the liturgy move?
What what surfaces we want for fesscosand mosaics. So the success of
the building depends just as much onthe commissioner their intelligence then their knowledge as
it does on the architect. Nowwe need to tell you what is required

(51:35):
and you produce the how to dothat. So we're developing videos, texts,
having conferences, et cetera, reallyaimed at commissioners, which are ultimately
priests, by seminarians and bishops andthis sort of thing. So there's been
really interesting working not so much fromthe making side, but from the other
side. I think that's very important. I mean, in the architecture side,

(51:59):
we're talking about this a lot,and we call it procurement, how
like, particularly with government, howthey procure projects for architects to design public
buildings or whatever. And it's we'retalking about it a lot because we we
want good works to be done.We know as architects what a public building

(52:20):
needs to do in terms of servingreal people's needs, you know, and
that is just in the same wayyou're just described in the delivery liturgical works
or a church. We know whatour job is, what we can do,
but if we can't get the procurementright, if the people who are
commissioning it, there's a lot ofwork on our part to do the brief.
But some you think, I thinkthat I can communicate the brief so

(52:44):
clearly that that is my job andthat's that's going to be fine. But
I think we see so much needas architects now in society around what buildings
and what public space is an urbandesign intervention are required to meet current immediate
problems that we're waiting for these we'rewaiting for these procurements, we're waiting for

(53:07):
these commissions. And it's not aseasy as just saying this is what has
to happen. I think people don't. Yeah, it's the commissioners who don't.
Really, Yeah, they don't theyallocate the importance of design into it,
or the procurement process what they're askedfor is actually too poor. So
you've got to say, actually,you just want a building I don't know

(53:27):
for the I don't know how homelesspeople, and that's what they asked for.
We say, okay, we cando that, but in fact there's
a bigger picture here, can weexpand the brief the commission, because if
we just build a hut for thesepeople to keep the lane off, we're
not actually solving the problem. Andyou're how about doing this as well?

(53:49):
Can do you find that you're Isupposely your government bodies off on your A
council bodies, they're open actually torevising the brief that they give you as
an architect, revising their procurement document. I haven't had a lot of big
projects in that way that I'm reallyI'm gearing that's where I want to go.
This is the key question right nowis that we can we as designers

(54:10):
we are sensitive to we're so sensitiveas artists to what the problems are.
But also as designers, we understandhow to get from A to B.
We understand the briefing process. We'rejust driven to want to provide the bigger
picture, the overall solution, andunderstand the politics and the sociology of it

(54:31):
and the environment of it. Doyou have any conferences or some platform where
by us architects can as it work, go back to the whatever it is
the government bodies, council bodies,whatever that actually train them how to procure
a very good question. This isreally prescient and it's exactly what the institute

(54:52):
and lead architects are discussing right now, and so thank you for asking.
There is a big question that theythat is coming up a lot, is
that from our professions that we feelwe need to reinstate a government architect position
so that design is considered around thetable across various ministries and portfolios. It's

(55:13):
not siloed. But or even mylocal local body here, local council,
no one really wants to say pickup the line and talk to an architect.
And you've got the parks people,you've got the infrastructure people, you've
got the strategic growth people, butthey all sort of have their idea about
what they want. But you know, you need design systems thinking across pipes

(55:34):
and services at the same time asyou need it at the parks. Whereas,
because it's so siloed these areas ofexpertise and there's no real employed architect
or even designer in the team,that overall questions are not being asked and
they think, oh, well,at procurement, we can just dial up
the architect and they can do it. I do think the greatest things normally

(55:54):
have one person who is the capitulationof everything. So we put it that
way. They're after tyrant who doesn'twork to do and people just mechanically do
it. But I think you needone person with vision or a humble person
who's able to draw together the visionof others. So when you've got a

(56:15):
big, big committee, if it'sa ARMBA committee, you tend to go
to the most common denominator. You'vegot a one person got vision and drive,
and you say, if you've gota problem as an architect, you
go to the one government architect andsay, you know, we took to
do this parts person that person.But it's all completely confusion, you know.
So you've got one person to who'sgot your finger. We're in all

(56:36):
the different parts. So there isa unity I think. I mean like
composing a symphony is done by oneperson. But then it's a corporate thing.
You need one person with vision andthey might get advice from other people.
But I think you do need thisthis this singularity. I think otherwise
it just just spiles down to thethose common denominations and a good designer and

(56:57):
I got an architect and understand theit's the range of people that are involved,
that we're impacting, that we're serving, that we've got to talk to.
That is what we do. Weunderstand all of those elements. I
just want to go back to yourstatement. Poor procurement. Yeah, poor
procurement, not big enough, vision, not deep enough fission an architect or
make a response to a need.And if the need is rather poor,

(57:20):
why not deeply understood? Then theresult is not going to meet the need.
It might appear to that it's likea sticking plaster on a cut.
Yeah, I think we're going tohave to finish. Aiden. Thank you
so much. Happy Christmas and thankyou. This is our aiden heart.
We're talking to in Shropshire, EnglandLocal Architecture now for December Christmas Eve twenty

(57:44):
twenty three. Thank you, anwish everyone happy Christmas. I've blessed.
This program was made with assistance fromNew Zealand on Air for radio broadcast and

(58:07):
throughadaccessmedia dot m Z website. Thankyou New Zealand on Air.