50, Paula Clarke of Go Architecture discusses business

Paula Clarke of Go Architecture in Lower Hutt discusses the business of architecture. Her excellent design studio is managed with well-considered systems and structure, achieving an optimum working environment for her team, clients and colleagues. Business and communication systems and a well-designed office environment support her delivery of high-quality architecture.’

Episode Transcript

(00:15):
Rosland Derby here for our first interviewon local architecture now for the year,
and we have Paula Clark. Hi, Hi, Paula. It's wonderful you've
come all the way out here fromthe Hut. It's wonderful to be here.
This is a new experience. Yeah. No, it was excellent talking
with you the other day in yourbeautiful offices. But you're here to talk

(00:36):
about the business of architecture and awhole lot of other things. But I
first was alluded to your the waythat you cross over and manage and present
an architecture by the seminar that youpresented later last year, and it struck
me that, you know, everyonedoes presentations and communicating, but the way

(00:58):
that you the graph around it andthe presentation of the slides was such that
there was a sense of if we'regoing to get things done, if we're
going to be working in the designindustry, communication is important through every level,
even in the presentation. So hereI am talking to you, and
then I visited subsequently visited your officeand it was even more inspiring. Thank

(01:18):
you. Yeah, So we hada long conversation and I guess I thought
this would be great to start theyear off with kind of like the real
stuff about architecture, the business ofa practice, systems and structures and systems
as to being able to have asort of long term practice that works really
well, which is the other sideof working apart from design. But designing

(01:42):
a practice and running a practice ispart of design, do you think.
I do think it is. Andfrom what I've observed, a lot of
designers identify themselves as being a designerand that's who they are and that's part
of their psyche. And I admitthat's where I started out. But as
my business grew, I came torealization I'm a business owner. But very
few designers who run businesses identify asthat. They tend to identify as designers

(02:07):
still or even if they have twelvestaff. So I've kind of taken more
of a business approach or a lotof running the practice because that's what I
am realistically. So I've built someof the network around business stuff and learning
from other people in business in differentareas, which has helped with the practice
and helped with the design as well. I think because you did sort of

(02:29):
say that you are you like structure, you like systems, but then looking
at your presentation powerpoints and then goingto your practice. All of that efficacy
around business approach has a sort ofdesign overall design outcome because systems allow design

(02:51):
to be Yeah, they formulate design. I think it kind of all goes
hand in hand, doesn't it,Because when we're designing buildings, are building
is a system and the building isa whole thing, So we're looking at
the function of it as well asthe design of it, and everything goes
hand in hand. And then ourdrawings that we're doing, we're producing drawings,
but really our job isn't to producedrawings. Our job is to communicate

(03:13):
the design to the people who needto know, which is firstly, at
concept stage, we're communicating the designto the clients. So it's all about
how we present that and how wetailor that to their own personality or their
own ability to read plans, orthe need to see three D things or
to be explained stuff they just don'tunderstand through When we're doing the technical stuff,

(03:34):
we're explaining it to the engineer,so the engineer knows what they're adding
into our design, and then we'reexplaining it to council and we're communicating how
the building is going to go tocouncil to show that it complies and for
the resource consents, and then finallyit's communicated to the builder how to build
it. So we've been thinking aboutall these things and it's all one thing,
and our job throughout it is tocommunicate to all those people and to

(03:57):
try and get to the end wherea client has a house. That's the
way that it was at the conceptsideally, because they haven't made changes because
we've been successful in a communication.So it kind of I suppose the system's
approach I take. I suppose itpermeates everything that I do. Like I
can't walk into a space without thinkingabout how it should be laid out,
or how it should be functional,or how to make it better. So

(04:18):
I mean, for a while,my staff would come in and make a
joke that they were trying to findwhat had changed since the day before and
when we first moved in the office. That was true for about six months
I would have gotten a new thingoff trade me or something and kind of
change stuff around. So it's alwaysabout I suppose, looking at how it
could be better, and that appliesto powerpoints and every part of what I

(04:45):
do. I suppose it's the funof it. It's the fun of it,
And yeah, I love that,because do you think that's the joy
is that we're there to get abuilding belt that meets the clients hugely huge
range of needs like shelter, butalso connect to the site and budget and
family life and sun and shelter andconnection to the garden. But then we

(05:09):
have to enable that design to actuallyhappen. And so part of architecture and
design is the process, isn't it. And it's an immensely practical process,
Like it's not just an ephemerial idea. It's like something that actually has to
be buildable. It has to workwith physics, I mean, it has
to not leak. So we areall these bits that we're pulling from everywhere

(05:30):
to make it all work. Andoften clients might have an idea that isn't
necessarily practical or might not work forthem. So our job, as somebody
who's sort of seen what works andwhat doesn't is to help them understand maybe
why it doesn't work or what mightwork differently, and give them options and
let them see some alternatives rather thanjust do exactly what they say they think
they want rather than what they actuallyneed, but also while not enforcing our

(05:56):
idea about what might be amazing onthem either. They're the people who go
to live in it. So thefirst step to communication is actually understanding what
they need and how they live andhow they communicate and what kind of level
of information they need or how theymight interpret information. So the first step
is finding out and then the acceptsthe communicating I suppose, and yeah,

(06:23):
that joy of having the client withyou all the way through the various stages.
The complexity of it all is alsopart of the communication. I mean,
of course they're not necessarily going totalk to the engineer is a hugely
amount, but they've got this concept, and then there's the challenges, and
then there's the doubts, and thenthere's the things that you know you have
to over, you have to workthrough, you have to solve problems.

(06:45):
And to get them from coming toyou as a client initially with what they
want and then to have them gothrough all those stages is also part of
that kind of management of that.They come out and they move to their
house, but they've been through apretty transformational experience in terms of the construction
and managing the contract, signing thecontract, selecting the tender so much.

(07:10):
True. Yeah, so that ispart of design, isn't it. And
I think as architecture, ultimately weknow that we have to we want to
build this design. We have tobuild this we have to get it consented.
But also we want something that's gota good outcome. So I mean
we approach it as it's collaboration whereeverybody who's involved. Our goal should all

(07:32):
be to make the best outcome wecan for the client, and that includes
the builders, and it includes theengineers, and it includes the council.
As much as many people like tobag on the council, it includes them.
So it needs to bring everybody alongfor the ride in a way that
everybody's been constructive and working towards thebest outcome. So we don't want the
council to dictate stuff to us thatwe think isn't right. But having said

(07:54):
that, we want to make adesign that we know is going to be
appropriate and be suitable and that thecouncil will be happy with because they can
see that we've made it suitable.So that so I suppose the goal will
bring everybody along for the ride sothat you don't have the communication breakdown,
yeah, or the arguments or thedifficulties that can happen. And that's part

(08:15):
of the design process, isn't itIs that team work, is that communicating
the idea, and that's what itcomes down to. So people actually,
even if there is a point wherethere's big decisions have to be made that
you don't necessarily know that people arekind of and they've been through enough of
that knowing that you know, we'reworking at it together, that there's that
moment everyone's around the table just solvingthat problem because they've been taken through it

(08:37):
to that point in a sort ofcollaborative way. And that's a really it
can be a very stressful process fora lot of people, especially people who
are really competent in whatever they doon a daily basis and are quite detailed
driven. They can feel quite overwhelmedand quite out of their depth and it
can get quite stressful. So peoplestress levels can be quite high that when

(09:00):
they're dealing with something they don't knowanything about. So we need to find
the appropriate level of communication to givethem enough information so that they understand what's
happening, so that they don't feelout of control, and then it means
that they're in a better frame ofmind to be able to make good decisions
without just overwhelming them absolutely, sothat it just helps them sort of understand

(09:20):
what's happening and understanding the reasons fordecisions throughout the way. If they've made
decisions based on good information, theyfeel comfortable in the decision they've made and
they don't second guess themselves later becausethey're confident and we sort of invested and
them having that kind of decision makingprocess, aren't they that they feel comfortable
because they don't have to second guessthemselves. That's our investment in the design

(09:45):
process. Yeah, And it meansthen you don't have changes. We don't
want them to be making changes.And then if you suddenly decide that you
do want to make a change forwhatever reason, systems we make sure that
we don't have to. But ifsomething comes up, people know that you're
doing Yeah, they have some sortof sense of faith and you and your
kind of in why you're making thatdecision and that you're going to do it

(10:07):
for the right reasons and helping themwork through Sometimes suddenly comes up, but
they go I want to make thischange, We talk through why they want
to make it and find out ifthat's the best thing, because the risk
the later you make a change,The risk is the less you think about
everything. Because when you're at thestart, you think about how everything integrates
with everything. You've got a muchhigher chance of something going wrong if you

(10:28):
make a change later without reconsidering everything, which can be hard to do depending
on where you are in the process. So definitely think these higher quality decisions
happen at the start, and youhave to be very careful and very aware
if you make very quick late decisionsthat they don't have some implication somewhere else
that you haven't thought of. Thatis such an important point for me,

(10:48):
because suddenly clients who are a bitoverbearing, they suddenly want to tinker because
they've got a bit of confidence andthe building's going up and that they want
to tinker. And if you're not, you know, it's sort of and
control of things. Then you canmaybe make a quick decision to please the
client, which we don't but insome circuits, and then then you're liable

(11:09):
down the track if that kind ofminor correction doesn't actually work, and we
would rather things came out well.So we would rather we would rather get
more questions about things than less.If people think they can do things without
asking, we'd rather get a questionthat we can say that's not a problem
than not get asked the question whenit was a problem. Yeah, And
I think look, it came outin your presentation to this presentation that Paula

(11:33):
made to members of AD and ZArchitectural Designers in New Zealand, and you
are stressing or you're conveying in thatyou know the importance of systems and quality
of systems and how you you know, And that was I think it's always
good to have that revision again withinour within our collegial group. Yeah.

(11:54):
So I was talking about like continuousimprovement, because we all think when we
start a business we should set everyup all at once and have a bit
of a panic about making sure everything'sperfect when we start. Maybe that's what
we do, but my policy isto do bits of everything and to continually
improve it. So code is alwayschanging and the rules always changing, and
it can get overwhelming. But thelonger you leave it before you keep an

(12:16):
eye on it, the harder itis to keep up and I've seen a
lot of businesses where they haven't keptup and they keep the software rold or
they have set up their systems andthen they haven't touched them and it's been
six years, and then suddenly it'sthis overwhelming amount of work they would have
to do to get everything back upto date again. So I'm always tinkering
with the systems and always improving somethinga little bit at a time. And

(12:39):
if code is going to change,we get a year's notice, so we
implement that before that happens, sothat by the time the code has changed,
we don't have to rush through andchange our furrings because we've already got
it in place from that change ayear ahead. So it smooths It smooths
us through council because we're not suddenlygetting questions from council about things that we

(13:00):
haven't kept up with, and itjust it means we're always improving the systems
and things are always getting better,which means we're always dealing with change.
But we're never going to get inthe position where we're suddenly twenty years out
of date or it's really difficult tocatch up with where we should be.
And because we're keeping on top ofthings and have systems in place to be

(13:20):
keep an eye out for new productsand for new rules on products and different
things that have worked. And we'rereading the like the determinations that come out
of MB about what has gone wrongor what arguments counsels have had with other
people. Were keeping an eye onhow the rules are being interpreted and then
making sure that we've got the rightadvice that we can give our clients and

(13:41):
that we're always looking ahead rather thanjust doing doing doing doing. We have
to set some side of time,some time aside to set up systems and
keep them up to date. Andso do you you were talking in that
seminar, you know, how doyou set that time aside? You have
choices. You might have one morninga week, or you might do it,
You'll say, and you could doit's incrementally in stages when you're starting

(14:03):
a new project and then new templateor something. Yeah, So I have
tried doing a default diary. Itworks for some people. It doesn't work
for me. I'll end up drawingbecause I've got a deadline and then I'm
like, hey, I'm not goingto do that. It's really easy to
skip systems because there's always something Ihave to do. So with the template
updates, Yeah, I've set itup where I'm not allowed to start a
new project until I've done the templateupdates. We've got a spreadsheet that all

(14:26):
the staff can add to so theycan make suggestions for things I think aren't
working well. And before I starta new project, I do all the
updates, and I make myself doit before I'm allowed to start the fun
thing of a new project. Okay, so that gets that happening. By
templates, do you mean that thedrawing that's the drawing template. The drawing
template is the house style of howyou present your notes. Yeah, so

(14:50):
I suppose a little bit more involvedthan that. So on the surface level,
it is around what our pages looklike, what our notes look like,
our fonts, our standard drawing things. But because we're working in three
D modeling, we're using ARCHAICAD.There's quite a lot that goes into the
template around making like furniture layouts thatlook nice in the concepts, so we've

(15:13):
got one made that makes it easyfor staff to put them into concepts.
So there's quite a lot of buildingI suppose that goes on and setting like
favorite objects and stuff. So sonot only are we making the drawings look
consistent, so that communicates consistently andwe know we're hitting all the compliance things,
we're also putting in the modeling thingsso that it makes the staff more
efficient when they're modeling, so thatthey can get more accurate models, because

(15:37):
really it all comes down to havinga very accurate model, because drawing drawing
now isn't We're not producing of thispage, that page, the next page.
We're producing a model and from thatmodel, we're creating the information,
So we focus a lot on gettingthat model right right. That's where we're
leveraging. We're wanting to keep ourquality up, but we're wanting to be

(15:58):
a bit more efficient on time overtime. So that's how we're leveraging.
That was with the template in buildingsystems into it to help staff. Yeah,
and like my feeling, I mean, you've obviously been building this practice
for five years or so, butyou've been being worked so having done your
having works for your practice seven seven, your own practice prior to that,

(16:22):
having many years of work experience,did you then, I mean it seemed
to be so clear to me asa recipient of the seminar that this information
was committed, like you felt likeyou presented a way, but it needed
to be heard again and again andagain. Was that because of your own
experience sitting up the practice that you'reready to now sort of impart the knowledge
to others, or that's just thenature of your personality. You want to

(16:45):
share information all the time. It'show you are. It's probably like that.
I know I talk rather too muchat work. I do. I
did discover like I did always thinkI would just be an employee forever and
I'd be happy just drawing and workingfor somebody and never think about running a
business until I overnight decided I wasgoing to start a business and kind of

(17:07):
went out contracting while setting up thebusiness, and then the contracting dropped off
as I picked up the business.So it was quite a low risk way
of getting into business for myself.I didn't suddenly have no income. I
have discovered that I do really enjoyshowing people how to do stuff okay,
and learning how to do stuff,and I found that it's actually as I've

(17:27):
done more management and less drawing.I thought I thought I would not like
the management. I thought I misseddoing the drawing, and I still definitely
draw. I'd probably draw forty percentof my time, but I do actually
really enjoy the tutoring and the helpingpeople and watching people like improve their knowledge

(17:47):
and stuff. So it's been interestinglearning for me. Yeah, And that's
a basis for really healthy business andthat you actually want to contact, that
you have the capacity to communicate itto other people, other professionals, that
you enjoy doing that, because that'sthe commitment to knowing that you want a
good date at the office. Youwant to have people working happily and effectively

(18:08):
and learning things, and that comesout means that the office is sustainable as
a sort of day to day goingconcern because people getting what they need out
of it. Yeah. I thinkthat's been one of my big focuses.
I've worked at several places that theirfocus was on pumping out work quite fast
and getting it out heading deadlines.There was a lot of overtime, there

(18:29):
was a lot of stress. Therewasn't a lot of peer support, and
I don't know how prevalent is inthe industry. I haven't worked in huge
numbers of offices, but I reallywanted to work somewhere I enjoyed working,
so I wanted to make it somewherethat people would enjoy working. And so
we probably don't have the profit marginsthat would be lovely to have, but

(18:51):
we all enjoy working there and welike coming into the office. People can
work from home if they want to, but most people find they enjoy coming
into the office more often than notand getting to learn from each other.
And so I do quite enjoy workingthere, which is, yeah, I
like the boss. You like theboss. But that's also part of enjoying

(19:15):
design, you know, it's actuallyhaving the working environment that enables you to
to be able to share knowledge withyou with your colleagues and comfortably so that
you can, you know, Ireally want to be able to discuss a
design with others and have them sharetheir knowledge and get through this thing together.
That is the fun of it.Like when we're doing concepts, everybody

(19:37):
will gather around and look at somebody'sand we'll talk through and people ask questions
or say things they don't like,and we end up with a better concept
because everybody's kind of had to sayso, even even if it's somebod who
hasn't really been involved in drawing acertain project. They have a certain level
of pride and various different projects thatcome through the office because they've been involved
wonderful in some way or another.And that's some you know, if you

(20:00):
love what you do, you reallywant to be you really ultimately want to
be doing with other people, don'tyou. Yeah, because you want to
talk about what you do. Andif that means that you with your employees
talking about what you do, andyou're working, and I would imagine making
quite a good profit from the waythat your office appears to me. Yeah,
that's quite successful, I would say. And it's endurable being successful and
knowing that you're solving these problems,these multitudinous problems are running an architecture business.

(20:27):
It is good. Yeah. Yeah, Because so I wandered in the
other day, you know, andit was a hot, hot day.
It was just after the summer holidays. I think it was my first day
or two back at work or maybe, Yeah, and it was sort of
like, first of all, itwas beautiful, it was cool, it
was air conditioned, but you alsohad somehow, you know, got that

(20:51):
choice situation where you're sharing the commercialbuilding with others on that floor. So
you had that already you know,before you enter your office space a sense
of color electiveness around other businesses whoall shared the same sort of reception area.
And it was quite funky and nicelylaid out, and so that's enjoyable

(21:11):
that you're not on your own andyou're you know, it's a difference from
working as you were before in yourown little bedroom, extra garage space or
whatever at home. Yes, wedid get quite cramped before we moved to
the office. We've been in theoffice for two and a half years and
we had a fifteen square meter itwas the second living room at my house
and at one point we had fivepeople one day a week anyway in fifteen

(21:32):
square meters. So we moved intoone hundred and ten square meter office.
So that was definitely quite nice tospread out. So you had five you've
usually grew to five people within workingfrom home from your from your home base.
Yes, but I think one ofthem was a student, so I
was coming in one day a week, so it wasn't five days with everybody
cramped in the end, but yes, we were definitely bursting at the seams.

(21:55):
And was it quite a big decisionbreaking process having to go out there
and find a new a new,a new offer space, the one that
worked or whatever it was available orwhere you wanted it to be, or
the light quality or what. Essentially, it was really difficult to get off
of space and the size I waslooking for at the time I was looking.
I'm not sure what it's like now, but we'd looked at at least

(22:15):
five that we'd tried to get beforewe got the one that we got.
So really it was the one thatwe could get that was available, that
was a good size, and itturned out I think it was the best
of the ones we'd seen. SoI'm quite glad that's the one that we
got. And we've got a greatlandlord, so you're space with him.
Oh so the landlord is someone whohas officed there, have been speaking to

(22:37):
him after I left your office.Yeah, so it did work out very
well, and it was bigger thanI was looking for, But it means
that we've had the opportunity to growa bit more, which is good.
And you've got several thort You've gotlike a big office desk area where everyone
works, and then you've got likea meeting room and you've got a little
reception there in a kitchen off thatand a kind of equipment room all of

(23:00):
your gears. So it's quite systematized, and I imagine clients would feel like
they were walking into somewhere where theycould kind of think. It was room
for them to think and if they'rea little bit overwhelmed, they can Yeah,
it's and I've kind of I'm busychanging at the moment. I've bought
some more things. I've traded meto play around with the meeting room some

(23:21):
more. But it was, Imean, it was what it was.
We've got the rooms that were there, so we were quite lucky in that
we've got quite a large meeting room, which has enabled us. It kind
of doubles up as our staff room, so we've got couches, and we've
got an area for the kids toys, and we've got a big TV so
that when the clients come in,we can pull the models up in three

(23:41):
D, so that works really well. We do send out a file it's
three D that people can walk around, but that takes a certain level of
technological expertise, so some people findthat a bit hard. So we can
pull up the model in three Don the screen and they consider in that
in that room and we can walkaround and talk about the things quite often.

(24:03):
So we'll send out the concepts firstso people can kind of digest them
and are they in print version,they're electronic, But we send them a
PDF so they get a plan andthey get three D pictures, and then
they get a file they can walkaround if they want to, just so
they can digest it, because Idon't want them coming in and seeing it
for the first time and just beingoverwhelmed and only hearing part of what we're

(24:26):
saying to them, because they're justtrying to process what they're looking at.
So we get them to come inafter they've had a bit of a look,
but then we do kind of atalk through the reasons we did things,
and that is written on the PDFs, but but we kind of go
through so we can get a senseof how they've really the skepch designs.
With the client, you really haveto with them before they go too much
into it. You can get abit lost and start making funny decisions because

(24:51):
of something they think they've seen,but it's not exactly what they're seeing.
So we talk through that and itgives us the sense of what they've understood
or not understood or what matters tothem, and we do too. We
always do two concepts so that theycan always see an alternative, because otherwise
limits your ability to think of alternatives. If you feel like this is where
your starting point is, you onlychange it a bit rather than having two,

(25:14):
and it helps. Sometimes one ofthem they'll hate, which is perfect,
Like that helps just as much asif they loved it, because it
points us to where we want toget them. But having the big screen
in the meeting room that was agame changer, going from a home office
where there was no separate meeting roomto having this nice separate space that,
as you say, it is quitecalm and it's quiet, and we can
put it up on the screen andit really helps people to sit down and

(25:37):
work through. And it's big enoughthat if people have questions about how big
is this room that we want,we can pull out the tape measure and
move furniture around and show them,like how big the dining room will be
or something, so they can getus. Because on a plan things often
look more cramped than they are inreality. So we find it it's helpful
having a large room because it letsus do that kind of thing, and

(26:03):
so they don't get confused by havingtwo different two completely different designs, or
the designs kind of aligned together,or it's more helpful than confusing. We've
never had anybody get confused, apartfrom I think sometimes people have thought once
they see one of them, theyhave to choose one of them and they
can't make changes, which were allowed. We're allowed for changes, and we've

(26:23):
tried it with just one. We'vehad people say we don't want to spend
the money onto, so we justwant one. And we've found overall that
took more hours and it took moretime to get to where they wanted to
get. So we've found like wewon't do less than two now. So
that's critical. I think about designas you're talking about getting the information at
the start and opening up all thequestions at the start, and if you

(26:44):
start have that open design process thestart, then down the track you've exposed
all the questions and that's critical tothe whole brief making process. And so
that you are that's design is reallyis really exploring and where you go yeah
yeah, and often like we're oftentalking to a couple, it's not uncommon

(27:06):
for them to think that they can'tboth have what they want, and they'll
say what they both want and theythink that they have to choose one or
the other. So our mission inthose situations is always to see if we
can get what they both want.And I think we've probably got a ninety
nine percent success rate on that,yes, So having the two can help,
and it can help with budget decisionsbecause you don't know for sure an
exact budget when you're first doing especiallyin a renovation, you need a certain

(27:27):
amount of information before you can geta good price from a builder or a
quantity surveyor so they might think theywant something. They might say, I
want this big deck because we thinkwe need a big deck. So part
of what we're working through is,well, how could you get the functionality
of a big deck without spending theirmoney doing that? And so we look
at alternative ways to get the outcomethey're looking for. So having this second

(27:51):
concept means the first one we canlisten to what they say they think.
Some people have got a more specificbrief than others, so one of them
will be more based on what they'vecome to us with and said that's what
they want. But in the quotediscussions, I will find out why they
want it, and then we're tryingto do a second one. And either
the second one lets them be moresure that they want what they wanted,

(28:12):
because they'll go, oh, no, I don't want that, or they
go, wow, that's something Ihad never actually considered. We love that,
And often when they come in forthe meeting and we're going through the
two, the go I love this, but I don't particularly like this,
And with a conversation between us,we come up with some third idea that
we wouldn't have come up with onour own and they wouldn't have come up
with on their own, and weactually that design meeting is so productive.

(28:36):
Will come out with something nobody everwould have come up with, and it
just makes it so collaborative. Butby starting with the two, it opens
those conversations fantastic and it lets themreally see, well, if I want
to spend heaps and heaps of money, I can have no compromises, but
really that's not much of a compromise, or actually like that better, but
I can save a whole heap ofmoney. So that's what we yeah trying

(28:56):
to really get so that they've madea good decision and they and they're happy
with their decision. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's that's
really robust and yeah it's well it'sdesign communicat Yeah, that's great. And
it makes it quicker, makes itquicker, much fun. It shortens the
process, Yeah, it really doesit. It saves money because you're opening

(29:18):
up all the information at the start. Yeah. Yeah, and then they're
not thinking what if because like whenwe're having a quote meeting, they're be
like, oh, one of themwill say something and they're like, we
weren't going to talk about that,we weren't going to raise that one.
And so I always ask, orI'll ask what's your dream? What's your
dream? Like do you dream ofa butler's pantry or do you really not
care? Because some people don't wantto tell me because they think they wouldn't

(29:41):
be able to fit it, andthey might not be able to fit it.
But if we know that, thenthat can sit there as a function
and it might be something that wecan fit in, or it might be
something that we can make work.And sometimes we can and sometimes there isn't
a space and you can't. Butif we know that, that's kind of
in the back of the head.You can give them something, we can
give it or they might go,oh, yeah, I can see that
you can make that, but Idon't actually like it that much, and

(30:03):
then they're not thinking what over forthe next ten years because they've gone,
I yet didn't work, and thenit's not something that they're wondering about.
So there's value in that. Yeah, And it's great, you know talking
to you like having the confidence toknow that you've got this process that you're
that you're committed and committed to andbelieve in because you're talking about something that
they're going to be having for tenyears and it was going to be there

(30:26):
for fifty years. So like asa professional, it's brilliant, you know,
having all that experience that you canoperate in that world, in that
space comfortably and have be open tobe able to make decisions because they because
you need to have confidence in thatprocess. Is it because the building is
going to be there for and ithas to be weather time and structural and

(30:51):
all of those things, and ithas to be you know, you're almost
have to be ahead of trends becauseyou've got to think about the importance of
north and sun and all those you'vegot to have, Yeah, understand site
and yeah, there's so there's somuch, there's so many moving pieces.
It's amazing. How do we doit every day? It every day because

(31:15):
we know it and we believe init. Yeah, and it's critical to
the client to house them properly.So but it is interesting, yeah,
from a kind of your own businesspoint of view. I mean I know
it was. I mean I thinkclients would come and they wouldn't know that

(31:36):
you'd built half the stuff, halfthe furniture and footings in that space.
But if they did, that wouldbe even more confidence that they would gain
that you can make stuff for yourself. Like would you like to subscribe the
I mean there's incredible little bits andpieces. You installed your own damn kitchen.
Yeah. So my hobby is likekucking around building stuff. So I've

(31:56):
renovated. I'm on my third houseand done on my own kitchen joinery.
Usually usually I get things second handoff trade me and then muck around with
them because that's cheap and easy.Paula has actually had this tiny little cubbyhole
of a space, and you boughta kind of except of kitchen units off
trade me. But you on yourown managed to like sort of cut them

(32:21):
down a bit so they fitted inthis kind of funny angular space and you
got them in the you yourself man. Yeah, yep. We converted the
oven tower into a fridge tower andput a chopping board in the old hob
space and just yeah, chopped upthe cabinets to make them fit fat full.
And I mean it helps that Ihave CARED software and I can draw
everything up and measure everything. Yes, and I built a timber screen.

(32:43):
I bought some sleepers, so Ihad to rip cut them down into small
pieces and dry them out and thicknessthem and made my first route jig for
the router to route in some littlehinges so that we can direct their air
conditioned to air. Because they're hepumpers only the foyer. It's very attractive
string so that the heat pump isonly in the foyer and its size for

(33:05):
the whole office. But the coldierdoesn't get all the way around, and
it made one person cold, soit's like the fan vents in your car.
So I've made them on little That'swhy it was there. It's not
just a pretty looking it's there fora function. So it's to stop that
person getting cold and so that I'llget a little bit more cold air in
my hot corner of the office.Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, there
are lots, so you think that'swhat you found. The timber. It's

(33:25):
lovely when you can work with timber, and then you actually have because you
found a little hard where the littleswivel kind of hinges. These verticals,
these vertical fins is what these are. Yeah. Yeah, and they've got
hinges top and bottom into kind ofa rebated plate. Yeah, the pin
hingers I think they're called. Arethey called pins? It's very nice.
Yeah. I was quite placed withthat one. Yeah yeah. And then

(33:46):
all the little timbershelves that you broughtfrom the house, Yeah, so I
built I built them. I justbought bits of what off Bunnings from Bunnings
just shelf and just made them intoboxes that fitted onto the walls. They
went ply where they pop up timber. They were they were timber, yeah
yeah, yeah, And and theywere they were at home, and then
we moved them to the office sothat you've probably got somewhere for their folders,

(34:07):
so that just the right size forYeah, it's not overwhelmed with documentation
of course, because it's all online, it's all on the on the software,
but just enough you have to haveall of the three six, o
four on all those folds freach job. And like the location of the office,

(34:29):
it's quite close to the actual hotcity center, isn't it. Yeah,
I was, Yeah, I waslooking for an office that wasn't in
the city center. Because when Iwas looking for an office, I was
really aware that staff need to beable to park. And if you if
you have an office in the citycenter, then there's they have to pay
for parking. Where is the parking. There's there's free parking, and there's

(34:50):
car park by the bridge. Sowe're right by the Dowson to change,
so there's there's a free car parkthere, but that gets a bit full
and we've got some car packs atthe back that I pay for four car
packs. But in the city center, the offices that were available, So
there were offices available in the citycenter, but they just had no parking
and nowhere for staff to get there. And I mean the downside is it's
not super close to a train station. I mean it's ten minute walk,

(35:13):
so it's not terrible, but it'sreally quite close to that little building on
that corner. It's quite an urbansort of space. Yeah, and it
was. It was actually the EMIStudios building. They got a custom built
for themselves in the seventies. Ohso it was the my studio's headquarters.
Okay, what's good. And theyused to make the records at the back.
Okay. Yeah, well that's quitecreative. Yeah. No, it's
a good location. Yeah, it'squite fast to get places. If you're

(35:36):
coming and going to clients and meetings, you can just jet in your car
and come straight back. Yeah,that was the vibe it had. Yeah,
it does have, which is goodfor clients as well. They feel
that it's accessible. Yeah, it'sjust right yeah, right off the motorway.
So were your clients Lower Hut basedmainly or Wellington or you're very much
like a Lower Hut niche business.We're about seventy percent and then it would

(36:00):
be the next biggest would be WellingtonCity and then probably the wided Upper and
then Protador would be after that.And we do a few up the coast,
but mostly it's the heart, butwe do the whole area and we've
done further Afield on the occasion.Yeah, and is that through advertising,

(36:22):
branding website. Since we moved intoan office, I've noticed that we've had
more coming from Google. Before wemoved into an office, when it was
a home office, we got veryfew coming through, even though the website
is the same website I had then, So I think the location probably makes
a difference to how we're popping upon the Google search results. But within

(36:42):
a month of starting my business,I joined a business group. So I
joined a business networking group, andthat helped me in the first few years
certainly learn a bit about being abusiness person. And because it's a group
of people from different businesses, sothere's like a lawyer and accountant and builder
and like anything you name it,they're there. So it was a really
good place to get advice about howto set up a business and what systems

(37:06):
I needed and what stuff I neededto know about. But also it's a
referrals based group, so we refereach other job so that was helping.
So that got me probably eighty percentof my work in the first couple of
years, so that's quite successful thesebusiness groups. Yeah, OK, yeah,
And then so now I get morethat's not from there, but a

(37:27):
lot of that's come from jobs thatwere originally from there. We've done a
good job, so they were fortheir friends. So there's a high percentage
comes from referrals, and quite alot come from referrals from builders, So
you're a lot busy on Facebook advertisingyourself the whole time. No, I
think I paid for one print atonce and we got one person call and
it didn't turn into a job.So we've never done any print here certainly

(37:49):
after that, like a newspaper.We've occasionally, I think we might have
paid for two Facebook ads and sevenyears and we do posts. We'll probably
post this on and and when clientsgive us photos, we'll post them with
their permission. We'll post before andafters because who doesn't love a good before

(38:09):
and after. But we're definitely notso great at social media as we should
be. You don't need to be. Yeah, well, it's one of
the continuous improvements that we'll get to. Yeah, yes, yeah, these
continuous improvements. So it's most it'smostly word of mouth, and a lot
comes from builders. Yeah, yeah, because they like our plans. So
they like your plans, like yourdrawings, and they like working with us

(38:31):
because we're helpful. Yes, andwe're problem solvers, so we do get
a lot of referrals that way.That's great. It's really good working with
builders when they know that they appreciateyour drawings and your on site work and
that you can solve problems. It'sa huge amount of what it's about and

(38:51):
satisfaction. And we enjoy working withbuilders who will ask questions because that's how
we're going to learn more the more. If they make the same or changes
without involving us, we don't learnfrom it. If they have something come
up and they involve us, thenwe learn more from it and that helps
us and they gain more sort ofenjoyment that they know they can communicate if
the architectural design, Yeah, whichis good, a good way to operate

(39:14):
on for a good science environment anda better outcome for the client. Yeah,
yeah for sure. But then youalso have a relationship with counsel,
don't you somehow? Yeah, SoI'm on their customer advisory Group which meets
every three months. So that's forhat City Council Customer Advisory Group. So

(39:34):
that was something that was set up. I think Auckland Council has one and
I think christ Church has one.And then so have started one as a
way to find out from the communityor from the stakeholders, so builders and
engineers and designers and planners and stuffwhat they can do better and how they
can better work with the community toserve the stakeholders needed. So so they're

(40:00):
going through it continuous. They're goingthrough an improvement process and they're involving us
and giving them feedback about because theyrolled out a new electronics system objective build
for submitting consents, so they sohard. There's a different one from capity.
Yeah, so there's quite a fewcouncils now an objective build. So
there's the two main ones. There'ssimply an objective build and most councils are

(40:22):
one or the other. So soit's been quite good finding out what's happening
behind the scenes of the council andwhat issues they're facing. And then they're
asking us what we need or they'refinding out about forward workload because often councils
only find out when suddenly everything's landedon their desks. So so it's kind
of a way for them to improves, like yours advice and aster how much

(40:44):
work is heading their way. Yeah, it's it's all very much like how
busy is everyone, right, Andpeople say so, it's it's not like
it's properly scientific, yeah, butjust sort of a little bit of an
ear to the ground. So that'sthat's your connection with the outs of these
Yeah. Yeah, and you're learningthrough that the planning, and you get

(41:06):
much knowledge around resource concending conversations andor only what we have to know anyway
is well, yeah, it's onlyit's only like two hours every three months,
so it's not a massive amount.So we I mean, we know,
we know that they're going through anew plan at the moment, and
they've seen stuff. Sometimes I'm toobusy to read all the stuff that I
can set because there's a lot ofchange happening in the plans at the moment.

(41:29):
It's really hard to keep up withbecause every council's got two or three
on the go. It feels likeplans yeah, long term and so we
read it, but we also haverelationships with other people who specialize in that
and have conversations with them, yes, and planners and get updates. That's
specifically towards the practice, but thedefinitely just raising the bar. I was

(41:52):
just thinking you went through various subjects. So I just thought it might be
might be helpful, Like you werejust driving the growth of different practices,
and how you grow from just beingholding all the information in your head is
a sole practitioner and just working fromjob to job, and then you get
to get to the practice for that, I say, eight plus people,

(42:13):
and this seems to be your goal. And how where you've got to is
having systems in place and constantly improving. Yeah. So, and that's the
work that you love, is runningmanaging the business. Yeah, I mean
I like all the things. Ilike doing the drawing, and I like
managing the business, and I liketraining people. That's my problem was I

(42:34):
try and do too much. Yeah. So I wrote that for the presentation,
and basically it was off the topof my head because i've place.
So the first place I worked hadfourteen people and they had heaps of systems.
They'd been a business for a while, and I think they probably had
too many systems was their problem.And then I went to a company that
was literally two people in a houseand by the time I left there fourteen.

(42:57):
So I'd helped grow that to fourteenbefore up leaving. So I've kind
of seen how a business changes naturallywhen you've got more people and seeing a
lot of people who work. Thereare a lot of sole practitioners who work
in the industry, and it isall in your head, like you don't
have the need for the systems becauseyou just do it the same way every
time and you remember what you did. And then when you like I went

(43:19):
from being just made having a parttimer, and suddenly I was having to
communicate what I did to her.So that's kind of where the systems start
from, is how do you communicatehow we do it and what we do
to somebody else. So that's yourbasic level of systems. And then I
suppose over time and as you getmore people, you realize, well,
I have to repeat this more thanonce. So therefore I need a system
about how I set up a newstaff member, or I've got a manual

(43:44):
about how to do stuff for Thenyou've got drawing standards that you have to
communicate to everybody, because the challengethe more people you have. Everybody does
things differently, and it doesn't matterhow many systems you have. Everybody does
things differently, and everybody's brains workdifferently, and with the software we use,
you can do lots of differently andyou can still come to the same
outcome. So any systems have torespect the fact that people think differently and

(44:06):
work differently, but also communicate theimportant stuff and the stuff that you need
to make it look. You wantit to look branded like it looks like
your stuff. You don't want somebodyto pick it up and go, I
know exactly who drew that, becausei've it's drawn, but I suppose they.
As you have more people, yourealize what more systems you need because
you realize that you've repeated something.And that's my trigger for working out if

(44:29):
I need a system. Is thissomething that I repeat all the time,
If it's something I'm doing for fiveminutes every day, is there a way
I can systemize there to save thatfive minutes every day? Or if I'm
repeating stuff for the stuff member andthat stuff member, therefore I need a
system to manage it. Yeah,So that was one of the statements.
You said, how many times amI doing this? And can I just

(44:49):
stop repeating it? And that setsup a new system. And if it
takes me four hours to set upa system to save me half an hour
a week, it's paid itself offreasonably quickly. Yeah, even though it
feels like a lot of time whenyou're doing it, like it's worth it,
Yes, it's worth it. Yeah. And so actually by employing more
people or get all the practice growsnaturally, it's actually a benefit because you
are driven to create more streamline systemsand then you're actually knowing that you're working

(45:15):
more effectively anyway. Yeah, ratherthan so just yourself, we don't you
can just keep tuning it out andalso learning to delegate knowledge sometimes. So
like there's a difference with somebody who'sjust come out of study. They're reading
everything and they're soaking it all in, and they're reading the newest rules,
and they'll find things that you've forgottenover fifteen years and point out that you've

(45:37):
got something that you haven't been doingright. But I wouldn't have the patience
to read a whole book. Iwouldn't read three six so forward front and
back again. I did at thestart. So it's quite good having young
staff and older stuff and having amixture of different levels of experience because people
approach it differently, and the youngpeople that don't have the experience about making
judgment calls but often the older peoplehave forgotten why they make those judgments because

(46:00):
they've got the actual rule. Theyjust know it feels right. So you
get this balance of knowledge or somebodywho's really good and really enjoys really technical
stuff versus somebody who's more creative ina different way. Being able to sort
of outsource something that somebody is goodat or wants to get better at is
quite awesome. Being able to dothat in a business and taking the when

(46:23):
you get to a certain point,being able to or people getting to a
certain experience level, me being ableto say, well, I don't actually
need to know that answer, becauseI can ask that person to find out
that answer, and like delegating someof that as an ongoing learning curve I
suppose, Yeah, But also quiteI am, you know, quite a
need to discover and to see peopleenjoying it or really growing when yeah,

(46:47):
when they grow or they discover somethingthey really love, and being able to
give them jobs they really love orthings that like seeing them go from one
level of skill up to one andrealizing they're now confident and some decisions they're
making where it was before. They'reasking all the time that we en sure
it's quite nice seeing that grow becausewe know that experience ourselves of learning stuff
and becoming confident at it, andhow littlebrating it is and then you get

(47:10):
to the next challenge. Yeah,And that was one thing I had to
learn going from being an employee torunning a business was that I had to
make the decisions and I couldn't asksomebody else if I was making the right
decision. I had to be confidentin my decision making. And that's quite
a step. That's quite a hardstep. But also I mean, I
suppose when I first started, Ihad people like a call. There were

(47:31):
a few people I knew who wererecently in business, so we would for
a while, they call each otherand bounce ideas off each other, because
that's when you're on your own,that's something you kind of miss out on
as getting there. And that's what'sreally nice about having staff. You can
bounce ideas off each other or checkyour thinking when you're not quite sure.
Yeah, no ideal situation to bein, but it takes years to It

(47:52):
takes confidence and sort of honesty toget to that point where you've got that
quality work environment. I think,and like you know, you've got here
implementing a new system system from youlevering systems to improve quality, and it's
just really clear, kind of graphics, is there a better way? And

(48:15):
you've got this thing of quality,putting a change in place, time it
takes and then the quality of theworld. But you were saying what struck
me. You were talking about businessmanagement software, you know, like you're
invoicing and all of that, andyou used to spend two or three days
not working, just focusing on whichsoftware to choose for your business management tool.

(48:37):
That's what you told me. Yes, it was interesting. Yes,
you actually looked through them all andlooked at the cost and the time involved
and the effectiveness of them all.And it took a while because to really
know how well it's going to workfor you, you have to set up
a whole project. So you haveto get a certain amount in there and
put the time in so, becausewhat we're doing is we manage the projects.

(49:00):
We're managing the stages of the projects. When the stages due how much
time we've got on the various taskswe're doing on the project. But then
it's also where the staff are recordingtheir time that they're spending on it so
that we know how long it's beenspent on it. And there's all sorts
of different software out there, andones that I'd worked with at previous workplaces
for payroll. They felt like hardwork and they took forty minutes to set

(49:22):
up one project, and it washard to change dates, and so I
did try. I googled, andI found some American ones, and I
found various. I think the onewe've ended up with is an Australian one,
but yeah, I think it wasfour days. It was basically a
week, so you actually had tosit whole had to set up a whole
project, and then I had totry and and then I so I had

(49:44):
to input data, but then Ihad to try and stress test and go
can I do this? And howeasy it is to make another one?
Now? How easy is it tochange the dates? Because because our dates
for our stages start when the clientapproves the stage, so you can't just
settle the dates at the start ofthe project. We don't know when the
client's going to say yes, pleaseover the next stage. So it has
to be flexible. It has tomake it easy for us to do there.

(50:04):
None of them quite do everything likeit's an ongoing challenge. Scheduling because
to a certain degree, I kindof let it happen scheduling time to like
scheduling time for projects, because somebodymight have three months worth of projects ahead
of them potentially, but some areat the engineer, some of them the
clients deciding when they're ready, likethe care staff member. Yeah, the

(50:27):
client might be getting a price tofind out what it's going to cost before
they tell us that East Pleas wouldlike to do the next stage of the
drawings. So we actually have noidea. We know that there's two weeks
worth of work on that project,but we don't know if it's coming in
next week, if it's coming inin a month, So we can't schedule
somebody three months out. So we'rebasically on the fly quite a lot in

(50:47):
terms of working out what everybody's workloadis looking like, and if something urgent
is happening, if there are otherpeople who can step in and help.
So none of the software did agreat job of making that easy, but
it really did take quite It takesquite a while to really get in and
see where the limitations are on itand then see if something else has the

(51:09):
same limitations or different ones. You'reworking out which ones you're happy with.
You investigate all of that with thatand more than that one week. That's
a pretty good resource because I knowthat once you've chosen it, all your
data is in there, and it'sexpensive. And so we've been We've got
one that we've had since I started, and we've researched a local New Zealand
one that started up a year ortwo ago. And one question is how

(51:34):
easily can the data be transferred?Because if they can't transfer the data,
that's probably a month's worth of workfor one person to data entry it to
go from one system to another.And we don't want to lose that data
because it's all our data about howefficient we are and how much time we're
spending on each job and how muchbecause we're charging a fixed price, so
if we take longer, we takelonger and time doesn't get charged more.

(51:57):
So all that is all data thatfeeds into KPIs and just understanding how the
practice works and if I'm quoting theright amounts it was by doing that,
I always need the feedback to seeif I'm quoting correctly because I don't want
to be under quoting because then staffare stressed because they don't have enough time
to do a good job. Wewant to do a good job, so
it's yeah, so's once you've madethat decision, you're locked down. And
it's similar to drawing software. Ifwe change drawing software now for whatever reason,

(52:22):
I think we have about two yearsof lost productivity and that's massive.
So we want to make the rightdecision when we're making it at the start.
Because you invest, you pay alicense per month or something for that
for the management software basically everything.Yeah, per month. Now you're saying
you've got you've got CAD software foreach staff, which you have to pay
a license to your staff member.Yeah, so it's it's quite commitment.

(52:44):
But you have to work out theprofit the profit margins of that. When
you sit in that seminar, thatation, you said that you know, mentioned
the word KPIs, the great flyersoff people's tongues KPIs. But you said
it's all you know, you've gotto get the right KPIs. You've got
to decide on what the KPIs shouldbe. Yeah, if you have the
wrong KPIs, you've just destroyed yourbusiness because you're measuring the wrong thing and

(53:05):
then your target's the wrong thing.It's like you hear about I mean,
it's an example that you hear about, not that I think it's necessarily wrong,
but like you hear about people beingtalked to the test where they're doing
maths and they're getting taught stuff sothey're past the test, and if the
test has the wrong questions in it, you're going to be learning the wrong
maths. And that's what KPIs are. If they're the wrong KPIs, then

(53:28):
you're targeting the wrong thing. Solike we look at we'll look at how
much time somebody takes compared to howmuch time I've allowed for it. But
as well as that, we're alsolooking at what percentage they're being utilized in
a month. And they feed intoeach other. So somebody's numbers might look
really great for their time, butthey might have been putting more time against
training versus somebody who's been leaving theirtraining time and their project time, and

(53:52):
they might look worse. So youhave to look at them together to see
if those are balancing. And alsohow much talking I'm doing and distracting people
in the office. So we actuallywe actually have time. We have time
in there that people can put in. It's f A, which could stand
for anything you choose that to standfor. That's your time talking. That's

(54:15):
that's Paula has been talking to themabout nonsense and distracted them so it doesn't
get measured against their job. Yes, So the idea is that will remind
me not to talk so much nonsense. But that's part of but that's part
of it as well of your ofyour exactly exactly yes, and then that
transfers to how does that crossover toinvoicing. That's that's another. Yeah.

(54:36):
So we're we're basically I'm doing aquote and it's a fixed price for concepts
and for the measuring the building andstuff, yes, And it's an estimate
for the technical drawings and once theconcepts are confirmed, we know what the
scope of the work is. It'sa fixed price, yes, for those
other stages. So if we've donesomething wrong, or something's taken longer,
or somebody's learning something, I'll tellthem put half your time against training because

(54:57):
this is the first time you've everdone something like this, so it's going
to take you longer, and I'mnot going to make the client pay extra
for them having a junior person ontheir job. So so so that doesn't
turn into invoicing. The only extraswe invoice extras if somebody's made a change,
if they say I would like toadd this or or this has changed

(55:19):
and I've changed my mind to thenwe'll charge that what that takes. But
if a junior is doing it,I'll have their time. Okay, you'll
have the time. Yeah, SoI don't invoice. I'm careful. I
want to be fair. So we'renot just and we're not just invoicing all
our time. So so our profitmargins are huge because because I've made those
decisions that I want to invest thebusiness time and energy into training people and

(55:43):
having people feeling that they've got thetime to do the quality work within reason.
But I want people to ask questionsand I want them to read.
I don't want them to rash andtry and get something done on time because
they're stressed about hitting the time.And I don't want them to stress about
the client having to pay lots becausethey've spent this time researching something, so
they put it against research time ortraining time, and we try and have

(56:06):
I mean, it's hard because everyit's on flexible working from home, so
it's hard to have times where everybody'sthere at once. But we try and
do training sessions on a semi regularbasis where where I'm teaching people how to
do things in archacad or other peoplecould be teaching them to try and keep
some of that training because I thinkthat's important. Yeah, yeah, so
that's what we've chosen. Our focusis that, Yeah, that's a wonderful

(56:31):
way to start sort of drawing toa close because you know, I'm hearing
that you're comfortable, You've got comfortableenough setup. And it's also in the
it's also in the software that peoplehave got time to learn because with architecture,
you're always learning something new and youknow that you need to put that

(56:51):
time and to learn it, andthen when you know it you can utilize
that information. You can utilize thatso much, you know, it makes
it always learning new stuff and tohave kind of a real concrete awareness within
the software that that's how a memberof your staff is operating. Then you

(57:12):
know, those are sort of KPIsthat you can sort of talk to,
Yeah, aren't they. Yeah,And we try and leverage that so there
might be a new tool or anew like when they update the software,
the tools change how you use it, and they can be quite a steep
learning curve. So I'll say toone person, how about you spend a
day learning that, and then youcan show us all how it works.

(57:34):
That's how you do it. Yeah, yeah, So we're kind of leveraging
off each other so that we getthe improved rather than going that's too hard,
I'm not going to do what.I'm gonna do it the way I
always did it, which is reallycommon to see. We try and make
sure we keep up with the softwareand keep that learning happening. And the
only way to make that happen isto be aware that we need to have
the training time and give people thebreathing room to do that, because if

(57:54):
they're always under pressure for deadlines,they just don't and they're too stress to
be in a space to learn anyway. So then that's what we try,
and that's what's important to me.So that's what we focus on. Fantastic,
fantastic, because architecture is such anenjoyable occupation, but it is if

(58:15):
you've got a chance to continue tolearn and to continue to solve the new
stuff that's coming up, because itcan be a very high pressure career as
well. It can be very highpressure, but to actually be able to
deliver properly, you've actually got tohave that learning knowledge time. We all
have to do it, but ifyou if you're doing it within it,
I mean, it's always pressure.But yeah, I know that sounds like

(58:38):
the real character. The heart ofthe practice and all that time is as
you say, it's actually providing theclient with the design design service so that
they can have a building at theend of it, and the right building
that works for them. Yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah. And so
just quietly when clients come in,do you do you do you kind of

(58:59):
enjoy the response that you know thatthey come in and you know that they're
getting the best sort of experience andwell a comfortable experience. Yeah. It's
always really nice hearing from people howthey found it, from their perspective and
the things that they appreciated about whatwe did. So I had one the
other week. We went to seea finished project and they said they've seen

(59:22):
some other designers and they liked thatI gave them suggestions that saved them from
building stuff that would have made theirbuilding worse and suggested building less but making
what they've got more functional. AndI was the only person who had said
that, and that's what they endedup doing and it works really well.
So it's always nice to hear thatpeople can see what we've done or what

(59:44):
value we've added, and that theyappreciate it. And it's also nice when
they will say Often people will saythat they've designed something, and that's good.
It means they feel like, andwe've designed stuff, but they've been
involved the whole way, so they'relike code designers were. Yeah, So
that's always really nice. That's reallyreally nice, and so that people are
actually you're really adding to that communicationthat design adds value and that rap means

(01:00:07):
a robust business is able to sustainthat and people are valuing good architecture.
So thank you for providing that outin the industry. Paula. Paula Clark
from we didn't mention the name ofyour business, Go Architecture in Lower Heart.
Yes, thank you. It's beenlovely being here. Oh good,
thank you. I'm glad you enjoyedit. Okay, this is Rosalind Darby

(01:00:27):
with Paula Clark here and local architecturenow for February twenty twenty four. Thanks
for starting off the year for us. Thank you very much for having me.
Bye. This program was made withassistance from New Zealand on Air,
radio, broadcast and through the AccessMedia dot m Z website. Thank you

(01:00:49):
New Zealand on Air