Episode 240: Black Games for BHM: Or; The Blackity Black Episode (Part 1?)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:32):
Hello, and welcome to episode twohundred and forty of the Night Your Mom's
Gamer podcast, the podcast where wetalk about living, working, playing,
in and around the games industry,and we do so from hey feminist perspective.
My name is Samantha Blackman, andI am an associate professor here at
Purdue University in West Lafayette, Indiana, and I am joined it tonight by

(00:54):
two fabulous guests. First up,we have Cinco Holmes, who is a
podcaster or game player and still theBruce Wayne of Chicago. How are you
doing this those wonderful cars. I'mdoing great. Thank you very much,
dam for having me. Uh,Mama, I made it not your mama

(01:15):
was gaging. We also joined tonightby Trey Andrea Ross Firm, who is
the Professor of fun at USC Hey. Trey, Hey, Sam. In

(01:41):
the Sunshine State, it was sohot today. It was ninety five.
I was like, this is notI don't know how it got to be,
but it was. I looked inmy car was like, are you
this is what you wanted? Thisis it's ninety five right now? Um,
I had on too many layers.I need to change up my fashion
sensibility and California because it was warm. It was warm, But yeah,

(02:02):
I ain't complaining the point of layersthough, trays that you could pull those
layers off though it's true, butI still had on a long sleeve shirt.
So I need layers that get real, real thin, thinner, thinner
fabrics, breathable fabrics. So I'mI'm gonna figure it out. You moved
back to California just the time forglobal warming. That don't seem like it

(02:23):
make good sense, Tray. Youknow, we're all in. We're all
in for it. I'm gonna ridethis. I'm gonna ride the sunshine to
the wheels fall off. It's allkinds of makes metaphors in that. But
you got the Black Girl sunscreen,let's go the sunglasses. It's like sixty
five in the Northeast, so Imean, we're all in for it.

(02:45):
Yeah, yeah, Well it wasn'tthat. It wasn't quite that warm in
the Midwest, at least in mypart of the Midwest. But it was
too warm. It was too Imean, I'm from Michigan originally, this
time of year, we're supposed tobe looking at single digits and below.
I'm exactly I can't hang with this. Give me my cold weather. That's
what I need, all right,So we're gonna stay y'all bugging. I'm

(03:08):
y'all. We all tropical people.I just got my twenty three and me,
you know, I just like saying, you know, like, let's
the heat keep coming, just nottoo hot. See, okay. So
here's the deal. Though. IfI could sweat, I would probably be
all right with it. But likeI physically cannot sweat, so I just

(03:30):
get instantute stroke. M hm.Oh. You know why you can't sweat
because because me and Patrick Ewing aresweating for you. Sam, I got
I got. I don't know.I don't know if you know, if
your listeners know who Patrick Ewing is. But uh, pat Patrick Ewing to

(03:52):
start sweating profusely opening the bottom ofright. Um, I too from this
from this thingdro So we have wehave stolen all of all of that personation
from you. You can keep itthough, you keep it. I just
give me cold weather and you cankeep you can keep the perspiration. You

(04:12):
can keep the perspiration. Yeah,all right, So we're gonna start with
our usual though, which playing whatyou're reading, what you're drinking, um,
and then we're gonna have some funhaving a conversation. Um, I'm
gonna flip it around this time.Trade what you're playing, tray I text
trade with this every day. Whatyou're playing? Trade? What am I

(04:35):
playing? So I was playing alot of stuff for class. I'm still
playing stuff for class. I thinkduring the school year, I really only
play things that show up on thesyllabus. But this week we were playing
God Award twenty eighteen. I havenever played the God A War games,
and since Cina says it's a blackgame, I felt like I needed to
play God a War And it's beena while since citer Ros actually said this,

(04:59):
but and finally caught up to playingtwenty eighteen. So and I can
totally see out's a black game.But more on that later, More on
that later. So I'm playing that. What else am I playing? You
know, I'm not playing anything otherthan that. But I want to play
the Sims, the Sims for youknow. In this last leg of Life
has released all kinds of is releasinga mega update, I think, and

(05:24):
so they are doing all kinds ofbody enhancements and modifications and just new infants
and all kinds of stuff, youknow, and The SIMS is a broken
game, like all games, butit really breaking game. So I have
a pact with myself that I cannotplay any SIMS new SIMS content until it's

(05:45):
been out for a couple of monthsand all, and they've patched it and
repatched it and it sort of works. So I'm looking forward to playing the
SIMS in about three months. That'sall this has released and then patched.
People can plain, and then it'spatch and then it's somewhat functional. Oh
my god, you're so extra.Try just play it when it don't work,
now, don't break all your stuffand oh your custom content, and

(06:08):
you need to you need to modifythe SIMS to play it anyway. And
so I need some you know,it needs to stabilize before I jump in.
But I'm gonna hopefully jump in,maybe not some time after GDC,
the SIMS will be right in theworld. Oh my goodness, Trey is
treating the Sins like everyone treats Thanksgivingdinner. Thanksgiving dinner is fine, Thanksgiving

(06:32):
Day or what you're really looking forwardto is the menagerie that is the leftovers.
Yes, a couple of days later, after things have had a chance
to sit and the juices have havemixed in with all the other pieces of
food, and then you go andthen you get that, and that is

(06:53):
the best part of Thanksgiving dinner.That is when the SINS is best.
I need I need the SIMS tohave already released two or three expansion packs
that I don't have yet, andthen by the time I jump in it,
you know, these expansion packs arelike a year old and they're pretty
stable and they worked as promise.So that's exactly what I'm waiting for,
Sister Road, for the all thenew stuff of the SIMS to be a

(07:15):
little bit old and more reliable thanI'm then I can jump in and be
like, Sam, you know thisis actually Fire Emblem Engage. I'm also
waiting for that, not for thesame reasons because I believe it's fully functional,
but I'm usually just behind the curve, So I want to play Fire
Emblem Engage once Sam is completely donewith it it has moved on. I'm
gonna be like, Sam, didyou play this game? Because I'm totally

(07:36):
gonna forget that you played it andeverything else. You should play this like
two years later, and Sam alike, try I played that when it
came out. That is our everydayconversation. That is our everyday conversation.
Tray come up when something came outin twenty eighteen, they're like, did

(08:00):
you Yeah, all right, saysRoa. What about you? What you're
playing? Uh so uh so youguys can't see the video, but it
looks like I'm in uh in ahostage room or something like that. So

(08:20):
I'm gonna wait for all my gamingshamed and underscloned location and uh, in
this undisclosed location, I still haveaccess to Marvel Snap. Um, which
if I did have access to gamingstuff, I probably still would be playing
Marvel Snap to almost the exclusion ofeverything else because it's just so damn good.

(08:41):
Um. You know is Uh it'seasy to play. You literally don't
have to spend any money on itif you don't want to. There are
no ads, uh, and itis full. If you were ever a
fan of Marvel in any capacity tothe in the movies, uh, you
know, comic books, or anyof the television shows in the nineties and

(09:05):
two thousands, Um, you knowmovies. I don't know. You know,
um, there's some version of ofwhat you loved is represented in in
this in this game in loving detail. And then and they and they manage
to make even characters and like themost of your characters in the Marvel universe

(09:31):
hellcaw um relevant via via this gamewhere you get to use these cards and
play this card game, um againstother people. And now you can actually
play against your friends. So I'myeah, I'm I'm loving this game.
I'm loving this scame. And nowI was gonna say they love they love

(09:56):
me as well, because you know, like I said, you don't have
to send a dollar on this team, but I stept fifteen every month,
um, so so you're welcome,Marvel um. And yeah, I hate
you and I love you. Yeah, yeah, I usually buy the battle
pass. I usually buy the battlePass because there's there's like a card you

(10:18):
can't get otherwise, at least notthat month. But sometimes I release those
those battle pass cards like a coupleof months down a lot, excuse me
or whatever. And and I sit, I go when I like say,
okay, it's time to lead theoffice. And I walk out this room
and I shut the door and Igo sit in the game room, um
and turn the TV on, butI don't watch TV. I just turned

(10:39):
off a background nowich and then Isit there and I played Marble Snapper till
my phone go dead. Right yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's what
my every day looked like. Igot my I got my backup battery right
here, just for Marvel Snap blackof battery right here. I feel you

(11:05):
I got the what I got becauseI got the Max Safe one that I
got a purple Max Safe that justgoes right on the back of my phone,
and the Marvel Snap got it looksat me. I can't even I
can't even deny. I can't evendeny. Try you need to play Marvel
Snap. Yeah, I get backto a two three years. You know.

(11:28):
You know what funny is I gotto it. I feel like I
got to it me because it wasyou know, I think people really started
to discover it back in the earlyparts of the summer. And I don't
I think I got to it inNovember. Yeah that's not what. Yeah,

(11:50):
tons and tons and tons of peopletalking about how great it is and
what you know, what's going on, and you know, just like,
let me see what all these kidstalk about. Uh and and yeah,
now yeah, he just keeps qualityand call of me and call me shout
out to catch out. Uh yeah, Marma Snapp is dope. Marma Snapp

(12:11):
is dope. You should be oneof us. Try m hm, it's
been out for a year. Tryyou. You say you safe to play?
Now you safe to play? Yeah? Now, I got so many
things on the list. It's likeI tell my students, I can't play
everything. I'm gonna end up playinga cross section of things that are relevant
to the world, and then therest are gonna be things I just happened

(12:35):
happened upon, and then's some thingsthat I'm really into, you know.
But it's like I can't. Idon't know how you can play so many
games. Sam, that's always Iwatch TV. Try and I don't know.
Well, there you go. Igo to bed very early, but
I don't really watch TV very much. And I mean I read, I
get ready for squad right. Idon't know how I can fit it in

(12:58):
trying to get ten thousand steps today. Like if I could play games.
There was this dude in my neighborhoodwho used to read entire novels while walking,
Like he would walk and just havea book in his hand. I
was like, I would break everylimb on my body if I had tried
to walk the neighborhood while getting exerciseand reading at the same time. You

(13:18):
can play Marvel Snap while you walkingin to say that, yeah, that
man, that man got hit fireCarlial hopefully that he seemed very fit and
very well read. Oh my gosh, well, Trey already out at me

(13:45):
because I'm playing um firing living gauge. Try you stopped playing three Houses,
you could play engauge. I sawthat you started playing three Houses again.
No, I haven't. Every timeI turn on my switch it says I'm
playing that, but it's okay.It's like, yeah, okay, So
I played. I've been playing alot of fire emblemen gauge Um. I've

(14:07):
been on a like a bass Builderkick lately, like a city Builder slash
bass Builder kick. And there wasa bunch of there's been a bunch of
demos for like new city Builders orbass Builders or kind of survivally based builder
games coming out. So I playeda bunch of demos. I played.
I had to look. I hadto look Steam World build Um, which

(14:28):
I am dying to play, likethe full game of now because I love
all the Steam World games, andthis one looks fun um Fabled then,
which is Fabled Dumb, which islike a medieval one. But they look
like little they look like little animatedhobbits. And I was like, but
they're cute and you can like makethem do things. And um, one

(14:50):
that I didn't know. I didn'tknow what the heck. I was like,
I don't know, this game looksfun, but you got to play
this white redhead dude. Um,and it looks like cross between a city
builder in Fortnite. It's like Iam future. Um, I don't know,
I don't know. I don't knowif I could play that like long
term because I don't want to beplaying as a white red head dude.

(15:11):
Um, let me customize my character. The red white red head dudes are
the black black dudes of white dudes, the black dudes and white dudes.
Okay, I got you. That'strue, so bad right, yeah yeah
yeah. And then the other oneI been because I just bought it on

(15:35):
a whim. I bought it ona whim when I was went to the
E shop on Nintendo. It's MarsBase and it had just come out and
it's like a farming simulator on Marsand and it was on sale for like
the launch week window. It waslike ten dollars. I was like ten
dollars, k't go, We're onfor ten dollars. Uh. So I've

(15:56):
been playing that when it's actually kindof fun. It's actually kind of fun.
It's it's kind of weird, butit's also kind of fun. Um.
So, yeah, I've been I'vebeen building stuff. I've been building
stuff. I've been in the buildingkind of moved well that and playing Fire
implement Engage. Uh yeah yeah,oh know between building stuff and tactical games.

(16:18):
Um, that's where I've been lately. I'm building Lego right now.
What you're building Fort Bronco? Ohokay, well that one get recall too?
Oh have they had recalls lately?Oh? Yeah, yeah, I'm

(16:41):
thinking Lego. I'm like Lego nevermakes a mistakes or yes, okay,
yes, yes, there you go. H I walked past a big stack
of Lego boxers earlier today and Iwas like, I need to build some
of it. See there you go, you got a multitask. Uh So,

(17:11):
am I allowed to start controversy controversynow or at least potential controversy.
So seeing so games I haven't played, but games that I'm really looking forward
to playing. Um is these veryapparently very controversial Hogwarts Legacy. Yeah yeah,

(17:36):
so you could be a black person. Yeah yeah, But who's the
biggest transferb on the planet and happyabout it? I'm also giving right,
but I'm also giving money to abunch of developers and and talented artists that
has worked incredibly hard, are andlovingly on this thing that that a person

(18:03):
that's created um or that that hasbeen created and is unfortunately attached to this
person. Would you know what's thisround? They already been paid, but
all right, I will not Youand I are never gonna agree on this
one. How How do you knowwhat their contracts are though? Do they

(18:26):
have like royalty type of set likenumber of number know how much money you
get? Because it is an interestingwell, it's an it's an important point
that games are these super collaborative enterpriseswhere hundreds, if not thousands of people
work on it endeavor, you know, work on something, and it's even

(18:47):
more of an expansive crew than likea TV show you know, might have
a pretty big crew, or filmmight have a pretty big crew. But
in these big like Triple A gametitles, there are thousands of people that
are involved quite often. And thenwhen you get down to some of the
principal talent, you know that's voicehad, but they're not being paid that

(19:07):
way. But but but but canyou appreciate the effort and the performances that
they put into it? Can youenjoy it? I'm look, I'm playing?
Can I know? Absolutely not?Can we think of the work as
a as a you know, asa as a total project, like the
total the totality of the project thatcannot that may be associated with the ip

(19:32):
of this one problematic person. No. Um, I hate to use the
Cosby Show as an example, butI don't have to, you know,
the Black Andy Black episode. SoI want to bring up the Cosby Show
just to say, we know,you know Bill Cosby and and we know
what Bill Cosby has done and wherehe has been and and all the problems

(19:52):
associated with Cosby as a man andpotentially as a brand as well. Um,
but does that stop me from goingback and watching the Cosby Show and
like critically thinking about it or personallyengaged because the Cosby Show, if I
think about my own life trajectory andengagement with medium, you know, it
was such an important show, andnow does it taint in some way my

(20:15):
going back and looking at that.Yes, I cannot unsee what I know
about Cosby Post or even pre CosbyShow, the whole the sort of totality
of his his life and the peoplethat he's impacted negatively. But I still
cannot separate my own engagement and kindof communal engagement from that property. So

(20:36):
I sort of bring that up asan example because it's complicated. Look,
I'm not a Harry Potter fan.I never watched a single movie. I
always fell asleep on them when Itried m I just don't like young adult
stuff. So this is I don'thave that. I don't have any s
get in the game. Yeah,I don't have any stake in this so
that but I'm just saying, we'regonna we have problematic and you know,

(21:00):
dangerous personalities in a lot of ways. But what is the relationship between that
person and their art and whatever productwe have. You know that there's a
way of engaging it not only onits own turns, because you always engage
it in context, in cultural context. Yes, but it's complicated. Okay,
So let me say this tray.I can see what you're saying to

(21:21):
a certain extent, But that argumentabout separating the artist from the art I
find to be bullshit right And Iam or was a Harry Potter fan.
Read all of the read all thebooks the night they came out. Well,
I literally was at our Burns andNoble at midnight, standing in line

(21:42):
to get every Harry Potter episode,every Harry Hary, the Harry Potter book
at on release day. Actually dressedup and took a group of students with
me to see the films. Everytime they came out out. Yeah,
every year, did a reading marathonwith local school kids to raise money for

(22:07):
our local literacy organization. I wasa Harry Potter fan, but also as
a queer woman who has friends andfamily members who are trans who has friends
and family members who are Jewish.Can I contribute one dime in any way,
shape or form to JK Rowling?Fuck? No, I cannot.

(22:32):
What if you got it for free, if you got a code, I
still if I got to colle well, if I if I got a game,
would I play the game? No? You know why, and I
will tell you. For one.I don't want to engage. I don't
want to engage with the me.I don't want to engage with the medium.
Two, if I got a code, if there would be the expectation
that I would play it publicly orcreate some kind of content around it,

(22:56):
and that I'm not gonna do.If you got an a legal copy,
just is it still it's it's youdon't want to be in that world anymore.
That world building, myth making spaceof Harry Potter is abject to you.
You cannot be it, You cannotenjoy any part of the world.
No, I cannot. You're supportingit financially, I cannot when I know

(23:18):
that she wishes that my loved onesdid not exist? Yeah, fuck no,
yeah never right, Yeah, it'sI'll ask this, do you yeah,
do you feel portrayed by the citythat you love? Or do you
feel do you feel portrayed by thecreator of the thing that you love?

(23:44):
When I think about it, bothand right, because when you think,
when you, when you when youint really interrogate that thing from the outside,
you can see the manifestations of thathatred in the work itself. M
hm. So yeah, you knowI'm not playing Harry Potter because, like

(24:07):
I said, I don't I don'tenjoy Harry Potter as a brand and as
a space, the fantasy space.It just is never magic. I don't
know what's happening. I've just neverreally appealed to me. I like magic,
but I don't like magic. ButI take very seriously. I mean
like, but there are a numberof things I'm trying to think of other
artists that that, you know,have said things that are hateful, that

(24:32):
are you know, just dismissive orhateful of other groups or my own group
groups that I represent. I'm aqueer black woman, you know as well.
And I'm sure J. K.Rowling don want me to exist,
you know, like doesn't whatever?Uh what I you know, I'm thinking
of art other artists and celebrities andathletes, you know that. I just

(24:53):
there is a line that gets crossed, and they're how to that? How
does that step? How does thatlike? Okay, let me think about
a favorite team. You know,Let's say I'm a I'm a diehard Lakers
fan or Knicks fan or or Netsfan. We just had all this Kyrie
irving wherever he goes is gonna givesomebody some reason, um, you know

(25:15):
whatever, that wasn't even never mind. So does that ruin I may hate
that player and hate that my teamhas that player on their team, but
what does it does? It doesn'truin the brand altogether for me? Can
I never ever nets fan again becausethey had this this person or Kanye Kanye

(25:36):
God, Kanye Kanye's music? Youknow, am, I'm never gonna gonna
listen to what is it? Uh? The Beautiful Dark Symphony? What's that
album? Graduation? And then theone with beautiful Dark Symphony and all of
the lights that that album is sogood when it comes from a wet song
comes on, When a song comeson from it, it does mess with

(25:59):
me, it does. It doesn'thit it me knowing what I know of
him now in the way I receivehim now in this context, does prevent
me from enjoying the song in away that I had before. But can
you buy can you buy future music? That's the question? Probably not see
that. See that's the that's theproblem with me and in Hogwarts Legacy,
right, it was enough for methat it is contributing to it is contributing

(26:26):
to her wealth. You know,people are like, well, she you
know, she didn't write the shedidn't write the script. She didn't do
that. She didn't do that,But you are building her brand at that
point. You are building her brand, and she has already said ha ha
ha. You can hate me allyou want. You can hate me because
that I take it all the wayto the bank, right, you know.
And I mean just the shit sheis like. It's not just that

(26:49):
she's like secretly transphobic or secretly antic. He is unapologetic and vocal. She
is just loud and wrong, right, tweeting out shit like happy turfness,
right, transclusionary radical feminists. No, how you gonna do that? Right?
Yeah? No? I mean sowhen you are just loud and wrong

(27:10):
on main yeah, and saying yeah, I'm gonna take your money, and
your money is supporting this ship righthere? I mean literally saying your money
is supporting this how I can't see. And the financial component is an important
sort of complication here. I mean, I think that you think of it
as building wealth to supporting the brand. I think all of those things are

(27:32):
true. I still think that asa critic as someone who who studies games
and culture. If and I havemany many games to play see previous conversation
and many many other topics to explore. But if I was working in an
area if this was interesting to mecritically, I would play it. I

(27:53):
think I would play it to beable to talk about the cultural reverberations,
to be able to have some nuanceand some greater understanding of the game as
art and the game as a thingwhich can never be inseparable from its personalities
and brands and people that created it. But as I said, I think
that that is a complex cultural systemum game creation, and so I think

(28:18):
that there are probably ways that Icould critically engage it. Uh, it
just is not on my top listof things to do, and maybe I
would try to get it for freeso as not to support the finances or
try to offset that. I don'tknow, you know what, what I
would what I would have to comeup with doing carbon, doing a kind
of cultural carbon offsets to something alongthose lines. But be able to you

(28:45):
know, anything I write about,I have to play. So if I
was writing about anything related to this, you know, trans identity and end
games, this, this is goingto come up. Even assuming I be
transit, can you be transit inHogward's legacy? Okay, this is interesting,

(29:07):
Okay, this is critically interesting.Is you know what. No,
it's not, but it's it couldbe saw Yes, it could be sallow
trans woman named sir rona A sI r O n A me. Somebody's
playing around a little bit there.But but the whole hot mess of it,

(29:32):
you know, I like broken.I like broken things. I like
dysfunctional, broken, unplayable, AfroSamura, Afro Samurai too, Afro Samurai
one for Samurai Too. You know, was the glitch. That's the glitchiest
game I've ever seen, right,I like it when there's something interesting going
on and the game gives I don'tknow who made it that one? Okay,

(30:00):
it was so broken it was unplayable, so you know, so so
maybe critically this is interesting, rightI. I could not write it off,
just as I cannot write off TheDoctor La Cosby show. Um.
Will I have I'm saying a personaljob. Will I buy another Kanye album?
Probably not? Probably not. It'sprobably ruined for me going forward.
But would I revisit some of hisother work? I mean I have,

(30:22):
It's on my playlists and stuff.It comes up, and I feel some
kind of way, I feel thediscomfort. I don't feel the same nostalgia
or engagement that I felt before.But yeah, it's it's more complex,
you know, it's it's compromised now, but it's still its own thing too,
you know. Um So, Imean, but that's the thing you

(30:45):
but you you're not contributing. Imean, and and I mean, I
don't re engage with any Harry Potterstuff because it's all ruined for me at
this point. It's all ruined forme. Um. You know, even
if there was even if it wassold if J. K. Rowling sold
it to Warner Brothers, right,so it became you know, like Lucas

(31:08):
is two Star Wars now right,it's completely owned by Disney. So even
if it was completely owned by WarnerBrothers and all the writers that you know,
so creatively, she had nothing todo with the series anymore. Would
you do you think you still feelthat saying you still have that same feeling

(31:32):
about the art that you do currently. Probably honestly. Probably if but if
she, if they she completely sawthe the IP had no ties to it,
there was no chance of her likemaking any kind of money directly or
indirectly. I mean, no,I don't think I could because I still

(31:57):
would know that it was Steve didn'tthat same kind of hatred Mum, so
it would it wouldn't work for me. It wouldn't mean It's kind of like
what Trey was saying about the music, just don't hit to say, yeah,
a little queasy sometimes, but Istill but it did. But it
see the music, yeah, becauseI because I have memories, you know,

(32:20):
of the time when I was listeningto that. You know where it
was. I was in Chicago,I was in grad school. There's a
flood of associations then will always bethere. And then the present day me
is you know critical, it's likethis is some you know when you do
you know what happens in the future, you know, Martyn tell you what
happens like the present day. Iwas trying to intervene in that, but

(32:45):
I can't take away from the factthat I was there. So if I
was, you know, steeped inHarry Potter lore and had read the books
and enjoyed the movies. I don'tknow any of them, but if I
did, I think I would havea similar kind of complicated association to it,
feeling really queasy and and and umrejecting what is now but still having

(33:07):
that history, especially if it werea formidable experience. Like I know,
you know my brother's generation, youknow, they grew up on Harry Potter,
so they they have a lot offund memories of reading that got it,
that got him into reading. Actually, like he did not want to
read, you know, for along time, but you came m a
Harry Potter book and then took himto the movies and he was getting into

(33:28):
it. So it's it's it's hardto say that, you know, the
bread, you're done with the art, You're done with the cultural life of
that. Now the cultural life issuper complicated, right, and we have
to wade through uh you know this, this this intolerance, this this bigotry,
and you know, wasn't there alwaysproblems with whiteness in the Characire Potter

(33:49):
world, Like I just remember,Um, there were being issues with race
too. Oh there were with namingand and and does this a really white
weird world. I don't know,imagice, I don't know, I don't
get it. But you know,some of these challenges were always there too,
and we are often have to beresistant readers and resistant um, you

(34:14):
know, appropriate culture. That's notfor us. That was just purposely you
know, excluding us and we stillcan have a meaningful exchange with it anyhow,
oppositional games type of stuff, youknow, M I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, well, uhyeah, I'm glad. I'm glad I

(34:36):
burst that subject. But on aserious note, a lot of the reasons
that you know, one of thereasons that that I think saying you and
I both look pray the way thatwe do is her ability to um articulate

(34:57):
exactly what's in your brain in away that is palatable for the CNN folks.
Um, and you know you canyou can see you can see Trey
on CNN and then MSNBC on onon occasion. Um. So but but
but um, yeah, well,a lot of the things that that traca

(35:19):
about howards legacy and and um beingable to look at it from a critical
perspective or are many of the reasonsthat that I'm really looking forward to it,
I you know, uh and andolder than than Trey. So it
wasn't part of the Harry Potter generationeither. Um. I read one or
two of the books. I lovethe films, um, and what you

(35:44):
know, what was really intriguing tome was being able to recreate the world
of the films is what they werepromising and and and the amount of things
that they were promising in this gamewere so fantastic that I like, I

(36:06):
I want to see if they wereable to if they were able to execute
them right, and that is youknow. So it's it's not only the
more of a curiosity, but becauseof the reviews that are coming back.
In the reviews so far um fromfrom the critics that have but they're incredible.
I didn't give it a nine.Yeah, yeah, I want them

(36:30):
to hate because movie adaptations are alwaysterrible, right there. That's of a
filmatic horrible games like actual um yeah. So that like so the and the
amount of things like when you youknow, you watch some of the developer

(36:50):
diaries and they talk about some ofthe additions that they were adding to the
game and the you know, theability your abilities, and it just seemed
like, oh no, I meanthey're trying to do everything in this game.
So I want to I want toplay it right, Like, I
don't even know that I care thatit's Harry Potter except for the fact that
it is based on a license thatI know, right, so that I

(37:15):
can look at the Harry Potter potternnessof it all and say oh, yeah,
that's like the movie and that's thisand that you know, that's you
know, early reminiscent of these thingsthat I've seen representative in some other medium.
But but but more for me asas a gaming critic is to see

(37:37):
how they're able to actually inject allof the things that they're saying that they're
going to inject into this game andhave it be playable. Um, and
so you know, so like thatis where I'm like, all right,
yeah, I gotta check this out, like because it's this can't possibly work,

(37:58):
but you know the way that they'resaying, yeah, see, and
I can understand how how that worksin some cases, right, And everybody
has to draw their line, right, People draw their lines, and I
esty Allen Films, my line hasbeen drawn. Yeah, and my lines

(38:19):
are different, right, I meanbecause there are kind even on the kind
of theoretical slash philosophical level, asa rhetorician, there are tons of rhetoricians,
um who were Nazis, right,and I was forced to study those
in order to get and study thosefolks in order to get a PhD,

(38:40):
or read those folks to get aPhD. I will not cite. I
will not utilize their work in anyway in my work because of that,
because they were Nazis. Yea,and that that is a choice that I
make, right um, and andI will make except I will make extended

(39:00):
footnotes in my own work. Yes, I recognize that. So and so
said this right for for because youknow otherwise people and say, well you
don't know your work. I knowmy work. I refuse to engage this
motherfucker because he would he would rathersee me dead. Yeah yeah, um,
so I mean and this again forme. Jk Rowlin draws that line.

(39:22):
And because jk Rowlin draws that line, all of her work and her
brand and anything that is her IPalso draws that line for me. Yeah.
Yeah, Well, you know,if if she bought her her of
her bind us from hobby Lobby andthen took everybody to lunch of Chick fil

(39:46):
A, she would have hit theHoly Trinity. No oh no, yeah,
yeah, that's that's a good question, though, is thank you for
starting us off that way? Wedidn't even get to what we're drinking way
past that, right, A lotof people were drinking a lot right now.

(40:09):
I'm about to start drinking straight outthe bottle over here, this a
row. That's what I do.That's what I do, shout out black
Obama. Well, as Tray said, I think we blew past what we're

(40:30):
drinking. Um. But uh so, I mean, but that's an interesting
one because because I think it willlead into because traininger Fad kind of had
this conversation when we were talking aboutblack games in general, right, um,
and that's what we talked about.It's black games, um and uh.

(40:52):
And so I know that Trade andI have had this this conversation because
when you said that argument, yousaid it here about and we decided,
Trey, I want to be tellingpeople we be arguing. We don't agree,
we don't agree. It okay,argument, okay, as long as

(41:15):
you can still love someone after Yeah, Tray and I argue by everything.
It's just it's just the way weare. It's just the way we are.
Um. But so one of thethings we've been thinking about a lot
lately, uh is black games,Like what's a black game? Um?

(41:35):
What games qualifies black games? AndI thought about it. I was thinking
about this earlier today, Trade andI was thinking about black It's like black
games that are black in text context, or in um the main protagonist.
And I was like that kind ofkind of better encapsulates in my mind,
helps me figure out like things thatwe've been talking about, like what is

(41:57):
a black game? Um? Andand and Trey and I have had this
conversation a lot. So since I'mgonna ask you, um, if we
start thinking about like as a group, the three of us start thinking about
what is a black game? Andwe had we had like thrown thrown now
some points that of things that wehave been thinking as a group as a

(42:21):
group, right, the black gameshave to thematically address black culture, social
issues or have a particular political orientation. I would also do they have to
have a black protagonist? Um?And? Well, I mean if if
if me, oh, oh you'renot done with your question, go ahead
and go ahead, no no,no, no, no question no right,

(42:45):
if they have to have a blackprotagonist, and you know this,
this episode will be on my realpoint. Who you got right? We
get this? Do the draft rightnow, let's go ahead and draft.

(43:07):
There's two rounds, one person walkin. Um. But yeah, it's
uh so I guess you know,like if we if we take Moffia and
three off the board, right,because like if you talk about black games,
well no, because I mean that'slike that's that's the thing is is

(43:29):
is you know, it's it's like, uh, there was there was a
uh a tournament of of restaurants orwhose restaurant staff could beat up another restaurant
staff, and and you know,like they took waffle House out of the
out of the tournament because you knowthat waffle House going right, Like,

(43:52):
you can't have you can't you can'thave a blackness. You can't have a
tournament of blackness in video games andand and not just qualify Mafia three because
Marfia three is the blackest video gamesthat the creative Um. You know,
it's for no other reason that youyou go around and you get to um

(44:15):
eviscerate racists um in in an amalgamationsof of you know, buy you Era,
you know, buy you Sixties Americana. UM. It's like if you
if you you know you you addthat to the mix, and then that's

(44:37):
gonna win every time, right,Like that's that's that that's played with vibranium.
Um. You know, uh whatthe black panthers right right right right?

(44:59):
Yeah, but you're taking the quasiblack you have already took the head.
I gotta be in the margins.You have already took the headheeld the
handheld black protagonists like you're taking thed black. I got that. I'm
building the power team of role playersover here. Listen, I'm a super
team of role players because that's whatwe got. That's what we got.

(45:21):
What else you got? That pointthough about about Mafia three being and I
gotta agree with you, a man, I gotta agree with you right now
because I'm mad at you by HarryPotter. But Mafia three has got to

(45:43):
be I would agree, probably oneof the blackest, if not the blackest
video game ever made. Right.I mean, yes, it has its
issues, right the It has itsissues in the characterization of Lincoln Clay,
but I think that if we lookat the characterization of other black characters in
that game, it definitely makes upfor those issues, right. And what

(46:07):
you can do as Lincoln Clay,right, you say, just walking around
invisciating races like the first time youwalk into Sammy's right after it's been taken
over. Um, I remember thefirst time I walked into Sammy's. You
know what's Sammy's? Like? Theyrunning drugs they got, they got women
know that they holding against the willkind of thing black women. Right,

(46:29):
so we're talking about we're talking aboutsexual servitude, sexual enslavement. Right.
You walk in and you know youyou know that in the back of your
mind that's what's going on in thisspace. But you're like, I'm going
here, I'm gonna get these womenand I'm gonna leave, Right, That's
what That's what I thought, rightas I was like, I'm gonna go
in and get these women, I'mgonna leave. I walk in there.
Look and I remember this moment sowell. Walk in. Look at that

(46:51):
little room to the left. Therewas a Confederate flag standing on the wall.
And the first thing I know,I'm killing everybody. Nobody making it
out of here. Everybody died,the women coming with you, everybody else,
did everybody else? Right? Thething about Mafia three, it did,

(47:16):
it did go ahead try so.I mean I always say that Mafia
three allows a kind of a setof fantasies that might have been activated by
black exportation film where you because it'san action game and those are at black
action films, you have a similartype of agency, you know, and

(47:36):
it is in this violent kind ofcontext. Not all black exportation films are
violent, but there are some thatare. And so you have this,
um you have that kind of fantasylike right at the surface that you're able
to enact. That I think isinteresting. But I would I would throw
out that maybe some black devs gamedevs might say that Mafia three can't be

(47:57):
in the blackest game ever because ofit's personnel, right that, Like you
go down the line and you sortof look at who made this game,
who was writing it? Don't dothese things matter? Or who were the
decision makers? What? What isthe what does the you know, the
studio look like? And how dowe get the story and the gameplay that

(48:19):
we get? So there were somany there are a lot of black creative
energy here. Does that matter?Uh? To what extent does personnel matter
when we come you know, whenwe're talking about the game itself. So
that's like texts, um contexts yousaid character. But I'm also thinking about
authorship, which is, as wejust discussed, a very tricky thing to
pinpoint anyway, But is that anaspiration for how we think about black games?

(48:45):
Who is the who are the creatives? So there were black because there
were, there were I used toknow the number off the top of my
head. It was like something betweennine and thirteen different studios that worked one
uh that worked one my three becausethey had different folks that were doing different
things. And I know, forexample, Blind Squirrel Blind Squirrel Um handled

(49:07):
all of the side quests. AndI actually on NYMG we interviewed Um,
one of the the devs that createda lot of the side quests, and
he was a young black man whowho was from New Orleans, right,
and had consultant grandfather who was aliveduring the time that Lincoln Clay would have

(49:31):
been active in order to kind ofbuild into those side quests, right.
So I mean, how much,as you said, how much black energy
went into don't know. I don'tknow, but you know, but you
know that there was, right,And I don't have an answer trying to
be essentialist that if you're black,as long as you got like twenty black

(49:53):
people working on the game, you'regood, or assume that just being black
and working in a space means thatyou know, uh, you're you,
You're you're illogically black. I knowthat matters, that is to me,
right, It doesn't necessarily mean there'sno essentialist claim that I'm making here necessarily
about what your blackness brings to agame. Um, there are maybe assumptions

(50:19):
perhaps, but I'm not trying tosay that definitely will bring up because we
all know apote, right, andwe know that black community is not a
monolith, et cetera, et cetera. But just in terms of of of
personnel, of labor, of whogets who is at the table, who
has agency in making a project,uh, you know, we will we

(50:46):
would expect that there's a greater representationat the creative at the creative helm here.
So well, I do want tono, no, no, I
was going to go on to adifferent game, but go ahead or oh
yeah yeah so but yeah, soI just want to I want to take
a second to to say that,um, you know, in the defense

(51:08):
of Mafia three, the head writerwas Charles Webb was the Brothers uh really
really great, really great guy.And uh you know that I've gotten to
break Breglan a couple of times.Um, but but also that that this
game wouldn't have been made if especiallynot in you know, from that franchise,

(51:34):
because it you know, I mean, it's a complete departure from what
the franchise was previous previous two installments. Um but yeah, but you know,
so that game wouldn't have been madein that franchise if there wasn't black
energy around the game, because wegot to play the game right, and
and I think that we were allkind of an agreement that as as messed

(51:58):
up as it sounds, that wasa level of Catharsis in playing as Lincoln
Clay and going through that game andbeing able to do the things that you
know, let's saying really you weretalking about doing right, like going in
and going in with one plan andhaving having a visceral like instinctive, ancestral

(52:27):
like primal reaction to effigy that wasin that game, and felt like the
just thing to do was instead ofjust removing the people that were there that
were in distress, was removing theother players that were in that space off

(52:50):
the board so that they could notdo that again, even though it was
all fake, right like, butthat was what you felt like. And
you you know, and you walkout of there feeling like you like the
a one baby face hero because youdid all of the right thing. It

(53:10):
wasn't if you just save the womenyou. You were you weren't completing the
task, right, and you youknow, yeah, yeah, go ahead,
no, no, no, Iwas just gonna say it because you
you when you the way you saidit, you said it, and I
giggled in the moment because it madesense right in terms of it being ancestral.

(53:31):
Right. So you walk in andyou have the text, you know
what's there, right, you knowthat women are being held in sexual servitude.
You walk in in a space whereyou know women are being held in
sexual servitude, and then you seea Confederate flag and that adds a level
of understanding and history. And theseancestors speak to you in that moment,

(53:58):
right and tell you I don't killeverybody in that space, you will never
sleep peacefully again, right right right, and and and and you know and
so like so the so the reasonthat I really I come back to Maffia
three and give it its props um, and you know, forever a should

(54:19):
be seeing its praises is because awhite person could go through the exact same
thing and come to a different conclusionand walk out of it and sleep peacefully,
right like that. That's the reasonthat you had to do what you
had to do was because of whoyou were and where you came from,

(54:44):
and that game understood that and gaveyou the space to to live out that
version of the fantasy that was necessaryfor you. And I think that that
doesn't happen unless there is black energytalking about that, those types of things
when they're designing the game, whenthey're you know, in the creation process.

(55:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And look, I like to
always say that I made the decisionto give Cassandra all the districts in the
whole game because I felt a blackman in that time. I wasn't trusting
those other bosses. I'm really supposedto trust that you're not going to turn
on me, and so I gaveit all in my own. They were

(55:30):
pissed. It will not support youin those final missions if you're undermining the
other bosses. And so that's whatI did. I said, Cassandra,
you get everything. And I wantedto play as Cassandra, but I mean,
we can't have everything. We can'thave everything we wanted, but I
really, yeah, now look tocontinue our draft. And so in that

(55:52):
case, Mafia three really resonates withfolks as a black game because of its
content. It's content, its authorshipto a degree, and its reception.
Right reception is how is it received? Who's a critical mass for it?
And I remember I seem to rememberit not maybe not doing as well commercially

(56:14):
as it was protected at all,and of course being slammed by a lot
of the Internet rolls and racists justnot wanting to play a game that type
of that game for that franchise withthe black protagonist refusal and because he wasn't
um you know, GTA Day,you know, there was still a fallback.

(56:34):
But but San Andreas you know,still hit all the benchmarks. But
I think it's because it enables awhite fantasy of blackness. That's what you
know. The GTA games tend todo. UM that is easily co optible,
right, It's easily like you couldyou could be uh, you could
be a black gang member in GTAand that seems like the appropriate placement.

(56:59):
But you can't be this potentially revolutionalrevolutionary like you know what, whatever Lincoln
Clay represents is too strong of asubversion for for for mainstream audiences. So
I get it. But what aboutDeath Loop. I haven't played Death Loop.
We're playing it next week in oneof my classes. Um, and

(57:21):
I for what I saw of DeathLoop, I liked it. I liked
the voice acting a lot, andum, the art style. But it
makes me nauseous as a as atoo fast of the first person shooter.
It makes me a little bit dizzy. Um. But Death Loop might be
a black game, just putting thatout there. Uh, and we got
to talk about the watch ye Acharacterization. Characterization might be it's got black

(57:46):
characters, is let's let's let's puta pen in the Walking Dead because yeah,
we got to talk about that.But definitely so so death Loop is.
I wonder if Definite is a blackgame or if it's a post racial
game with a black protagonist, becauseit's it's very so, it's very stylized,

(58:14):
and it almost feels like it feelslike seventies retro meets you know,
meets like you know, like UltimateFuture twenty thirties, right, Like that's
kind of what it feels like.And and so I feel like sometimes when

(58:38):
things happen, when when something needsto be cool, and it's if it's
cool in the seventies, it's ablack pude with an afro with with with
some flared out genes right, somebell bottom right, and and he's just
and he's just cool baby, andthat's everybody's uncle had in and when you

(58:59):
look through the exactly yep yep umand and you know, I don't know
if that is right. So Idon't know if that is an effigy of
blackness, or if if it's aneffigy of coolness, or if that's the
same, right like, or ifthat's if those are are our cinemas,
right people. I guess I cansay that really any culture, I was

(59:25):
going to say an American culture,but any culture, right, cool comes
from you know, in nine timesout of ten, you know, the
originators of whatever is cool is someonewould lock the melani um. So so
yeah, like I feel like theywere going for a I feel like they

(59:50):
were they were going for a certainaspectation from a certain time period for like
how they were going to design theircharacters, and and you know, they're
aesthetic and that if they were goingto be authentic to that time period,
and they wanted the protagonist to beyou know, cool and and he's always

(01:00:15):
got really a quirky things to say, then then the characterization of that character
had to be black, right,Like, if they were, if they
were thinking about all of the thingsthat they were doing, it would have
felt inauthentic if the character wasn't black, I think um or at least at

(01:00:37):
least I feel like I can makethat argument. Is it set in the
seventies? I don't even know.It's not. It's not set in the
seventies, but the but it feelslike the characters came from like they like
their their mannerisms and style came fromthe seventies to wherever this like alternate future

(01:01:01):
is right right, being from BioShock. Yeah, that's what I'm gonna say.
It's like it's like seventy steampunk,right. They've taken They've taken the
time period, the aesthetic of thetime period, and transported it to a
future time. Um yeah, wellI reserved judgment because I haven't seen enough

(01:01:23):
of the game. I've only playedmaybe thirty minutes before I got dizzy.
But what I didn't enjoy it's justtoo fat. I don't know what it
is. Something that I mean,I could try to slow down the camera
that might help. But what Idid find interesting was the dialogue between the
two the two lead actors. Becauseyou have the actor that you're playing,

(01:01:44):
and then you also have a blackwoman who's trying to sabotage you. I
think, you know, and youhave to keep playing the same day in
the same missions, over and overagain until you get it just right.
So it was compelling to me becauseof their interactions. I felt like there
was a real good chemistry between thosetwo actors. And I don't remember how

(01:02:07):
how much blackness is called out explicitlyin the game, if that happened at
all, like, you know,hey, I'm black man, you're a
black woman. I don't know howmuch how self conscious the work is about
it at the character level, Idon't know, So that's that's sort of
a question. But you know,co opting black cool and using it,

(01:02:27):
you know, in the and invarious mediums is just a thing. It's
like the more it's like Morpheus andthe Matrix. You know, Morpheus makes
the whole, the whole thing,all the leather black, and you know,
wearing black leather and this and thatthat black cool has been co opted
and co optible and sort of youknow, recycled in a variety of media
context so that that wasn't necessarily offputting to me. But I am intrigued

(01:02:52):
by the fact that the repetition,right, the repetition of like death and
life, and usually it's not life, right, it's a repetition of black
death that you had in life period. Uh. And I'm gaming World and
so I wanted to see, ifanything interesting, what's happening with that?

(01:03:13):
You know, the way you dieand die again. It's a very self
conscious cycle of death. Uh.And I wonder, you know, what
is the cultural significance of that.So I'm kind of intriguing. I'm drafting
it. I'm drafting death Loop overhere. And also The Walking Dead That's
what I got on my list,right oh yeah, yeah, so uh,

(01:03:34):
I mean the Walking Dead is isuh, you know, to be
clear to people, um, WalkingDead, we're talking about the Telltale Walking
Death series, but but primarily thefirst game, part one, right,
um? And uh what a whatan interesting game because the performances were fantastic.

(01:03:59):
Right. Um. So you knowyou got Dave Any playing the lead
the lead uh protagonists, I can'tremember his name, leely Everett, Yeah,
Lee Everett. You know who's who'sa professor who was charged with with
killing his wife or he's like theonly black dude in here. He winds

(01:04:19):
up finding Clement Time, who whois a buy racial girl who's you know,
uh by her family yeah, um, and and you know, so
he becomes her father figure. Buthe is like, he's the only you
know, black person and really honestlythe only positive that you know, just

(01:04:42):
a full straight on, a positiveadult that that is amongst their group during
the course of their adventures. Um. But the entire time during the course
of the game, you're not surehe's a murderer. He you know,
you find him in the back ofthe police car where you we first get
and he on his being transported tojail, um for for killing his wife.

(01:05:05):
But he doesn't like it doesn't seemto fit. But you never get
you never get clarity on that,and there's no resolution to to what what
actually transpired with that. And thatsends a message about blackness, whether they
were you know, whether they wereconscious of it or not. And it

(01:05:25):
definitely sends a message about blackness.Um. When you know, even even
even the character that is the mostlikable is also irredeemable because he is a
murderer of human as opposed to justa killer of zombie um. Uh.

(01:05:47):
So and and you know, andthen the the Patrol, the Patrol,
the voice acting by Dave Fernani wasincredible. Um. And you know,
I think what was a shame wasthat the fact that that Clemon, this
little black girl, was portrayed byby a white woman. Um and you
know, when they could have easilyfound found a black woman to play that

(01:06:15):
role. But yeah, I digress. Yeah, Well it's precisely because of
Clementine that I think the whole serieshas to be black, you know,
whether or not, Again, thisis a question of the creative talent.
So that extends of course to theperformances and the voice actors and so and
then the constant online debate about Clementine'srace. You know when early on she

(01:06:42):
was always called this is a storyabout a young African American girl. Now
you look at the photograph of herfather and her mother in episode one,
and you see that she see appearsto have a black father and arguably appears
to have a black woman, likea light skin kind of curry type of
black. She can also be peoplehave speculated that maybe she has a mixed

(01:07:05):
race heritage. But either way,by by those by that by those uh,
by those stats, she would beconsidered black in America. UM and
so you know, she'd be consideredblack in a lot of contexts um and
so they and so so because ofthat, I would say it extends beyond

(01:07:25):
the first season, which is Leeyou know, has Lee in it and
um and then you know, howinteresting is the story going forward? You
know, we put a lot ofqualifiers on this question of representation of the
character, like because it seems likethere are a lot of games and characters
we wouldn't claim. The black communitywould say, I don't claim that one.
I don't want that one. Youknow, I got one I would

(01:07:48):
like to, but you can disqualify. But but then, but then it
gets down to, you know,how do these representations land, How are
they how are they received? Youknow, do they seem culturally, unically,
socially you know, resonate with us? Um and So I think that's
a lot that First of all,I feel like, you know, the
bird art always has this burden ofrepresentation to be able to appeal to you

(01:08:13):
know, it's intended audiences and andand more and and so you know,
it's a slippery slope to to sortof say, Okay, you know clemtime
is not black enough for this isnot black, this is politically not black
enough. It's hard, it's ahard question to answer. I would count
Walking Dead as black in because ofits characterizations, because of its themes,
because of the history of zombie narratives, um being about blackness anyhow, or

(01:08:39):
starting with the right even before Nightof the Living Dead, you know,
just the cultural and religious context fromwhich zombies, Yeah, from from which
zombies, um, you know,come to the popular popular realm because they're
but the but the popular versions arealways that the zombies are terrifying, right,
and that's not the violent and terrifying, this violent terrifying others, or

(01:09:03):
an extension of white supremacy, asin neither the Living Dead, right,
that that's the lynch mob, andthe zombies are all blow are all white.
Then they kill, you know,the only black person in the whole
film at the end. I justthought that movie this this past week,
so I just just rewatched it.So but because of the zombie cut context,

(01:09:23):
because of of Clementine's race, eventhough the voice actor is not black,
UM, I do think that's unfortunateand a complicating factor and and contributes
to the kind of multiracial, pluralistview of Clementine. I think where she
can sider to be, you know, where we're there as often a racially

(01:09:44):
ambiguous character, so within the hopethat it won't alienate or have to be
too specific, you know, andsay, Okay, this is just a
brown person. I don't know,I don't really know what's happening here with
the fourth of everything. This isjust a brown person. You can map
on your you know, preferred ethnicor racial you know, heritage onto this

(01:10:05):
this character. But I think,yeah, and I haven't thought enough about
all the episodes of The Walking Daybecause it's a long series. And then
later Clementone ums um the paternal youknow, not the paternal but the paternal
figure for Aj, who's definitely youngblack boy. Yeah. Absolutely, the

(01:10:25):
characterization the character art of AJ kindof bothers me in a way because he's
supposed to be like six or seven, and he looks like a little short
teenager. I mean, like theyreally came out with the mature representation of
this little black boy. Um.And of course, however, you know,
depending on how you play the game, he's like a hardened status.

(01:10:45):
He can be a hardened status inthat space or you know, he can
be somewhat empathetic and sensitive, butthey really really did something weird, I
feel like with his age and hishis um, the way he looks.
But but definitely there's another central blackcharacter that I think he's an episode,
like two or three of the episodes. So so children like, I want

(01:11:10):
to go back to season one though, before we go pass that, because
I think that, yeah, togo back to us this role said,
right, when you talk about theoptics, right, the first time you
see Lee is in the back ofa police card, right, I mean,
and the fact that he's a professor, that that he comes from a
kind of well established, uh Southernfamily. His parents are or at least

(01:11:33):
one of his parents is a pharmacist. They own a pharmacy. Um.
Uh isn't his brother a doctor?Yeah? Yeah, they're they're coming from
yeah, like probably upper middle class. Right. So all of these things
that would make him quote unquote acceptableare things that you learn later along the

(01:11:55):
line. But the first thing yousee is that image of black criminality,
yes, right. And also fromthe fact is is that like all this
time, is that you know thatthat finding and being the paternal figure for
Clementine is part of his redemption arc, but his redemption arc ends with his
death m hm. And she hasto kill him. I mean, it

(01:12:16):
becomes a zombie, and it's anactive empathy for her to even You can
either kill him or let him becomestay a zombie forever, be kind of
stuck in that purgatory, or youcan be empathetic and shoot him in the
head. I critique this in gamingrepresentation. I mean, that's that's that
was my that was my stance onit. That you create all this empathy,
this is about the limits of racialempathy, and create these two characters,

(01:12:39):
you put them together, you showhow black paternity can be this beautiful
thing, you know, this place, and then you turn him into a
zombie and she has to shoot himin the head, and that's the way
forward. So I'm very critical ofthat whole storyline. It doesn't make it
any less of a black game tome, It just makes it a part

(01:13:00):
of of of it makes it lessyou know, interesting, less potent,
less radical, less subversive than itshould be. Because you had a chance
here to do to go all theway, go all the way. You're
here, you know, you're rightthere with something really resistant kind of culturally.
And then and then and then yougive us that you know path and
that ending. For I wanted tosee Lee and Clementine go on, why

(01:13:24):
can't they be together for the forthe you know, and in the context
of all the dystopias where the blackcharacters are first to die or you know,
the last of us, you justgo ahead and annihilate every person of
color, and that holes that thatfranchise um any or or or let the
effected get them or whatever. Youknow. Uh, you you have a

(01:13:44):
chance to do something different with thestories that you're telling, so you might
as well go the distance. That'show I feeled about the well and that
is that is the difference between Mafiathree and The Walking Dead. I think,
you know, in having black energyin the room, there was no
black energy in the room. Andwhen you know, for Telltale, um,

(01:14:09):
what there was was a lot ofwell meaning white energy anyone because they
didn't have to create that story.They intentionally created the story that they did,
choosing the characters that they did,um and and and I and I
want to believe that they had allof the best of intentions in doing so.

(01:14:30):
And you know, and I thinkfor the most part, they were
wildly successful with that. Um.But I think the critiques that we have
and I think that they're they're they'redefinitely on point critiques. Um. These
are critiques that could have been broughtup in the creative process but they but

(01:14:51):
but couldn't because there was no onethere to think about those perspectives. Um.
Yeah, you know, and that'syou know, that's the difference.
That's the difference in black end,there's things. Do you know. All
they need is just to continue toput creative talent around that project, critical

(01:15:14):
creative talent around that project. Andlook, my email address is russworm Act.
If you think you could use somecritical insight before you release a game,
and you realize you were being wellmeaning and well intentioned and you might
have some interesting things going on therewith diverse representation, shoot me an email,

(01:15:35):
let me read the script, Let'shave a conversation, just to make
sure that you know, and itdoesn't mean it's gonna be perfect, doesn't
mean it's gonna be right, butbut just to make sure that at least
this type of symbolism is in check, right that because we already know how
a lot of stuff ends for blackfolks, especially in the sci fi realm,

(01:15:55):
science fiction zombie narratives, in theworld pocalyptic narratives, it doesn't in
well, there's no space for youas as a black person trying to survive
the apocalypse. Um. Now again, Clementine and and Aj seem to survive.
I don't have a firm grasp onwhat happens at the end of season
four, but I'm pretty sure thatboth of them are still alive, even

(01:16:17):
though, like I said, youmight turn Aj into a sadus uh and
they're kind of hardened, hardened bytheir experiences. So, you know,
I think the totality of the ofthe of the franchise has to be thought
about. But you can have thatcritical component that you add to your work
and just make sure that it's it'sgoing in that direction. There are plenty

(01:16:40):
of people out there give you thatfeedback. Yeah, I'll add an addendum
to what Trade said. You know, if you if you are well meaning
and you you're looking around and doesn'tsee like if everyone seems to kind of
look like you or someone in yourfamily, um, yeah, contact contact
Trade and then after you, afteryou talk to that Trade, contact another

(01:17:04):
person. Right like I talk Italk to people. I talk to people
about you know, you know thewhite people who's like god that you know,
well meaning white people like, Hey, do you have any black friends?
Oh? Yeah, yeah I know. No, I said, friends
with with an S. Right,Like, you can't have one, right,
you can't just have to token.You have to you have to have

(01:17:24):
it at least at least two perffecblythrough because we will are jobs, right,
we are right, press possibly three, um, you know, but
I mean, but that's you know, but the point, the point is
it really is that even when youare out there trying to do the work,

(01:17:48):
because it because there is a portionof the work that we can't do
as as black folks, right thatthat you know, like our message,
our message can't get through to everyonebecause if they could be that, we
wouldn't be in a situation that we'rein now, right, Like we wouldn't
be having this conversation right now.Um. So, so there is a

(01:18:12):
level of of importance that you haveto put on on the allies, right
because the allies can talk to theopposition, um and in ways that we
can't. So if if they're goingto be well meaning allies, we've got
to utilize them. But in orderfor them to be properly utilized, they
have to you know, they haveto refer to the sport and they can't

(01:18:36):
just go they can't just go toone sticket. They got to go to
a couple of sickets, right andget and get some of the get some
of that wader knowledge from from fromdifferent from different fountains, and to bring
that together and then, you know, and then you'll get a more holistic
representation of of whatever it is thatyou're trying to represent. Um I want

(01:18:59):
to bring. I want to bringa couple of games that are that are
kind of wait, wait before youmet to the other games where I think
we just created the black people playtesting group, the Black playtesters aka the
black playtesters, who who you geta quorum of people and you get them
to keep this kind of even Iwould say, I know, I would

(01:19:21):
say even before that, I thinkI think before we go play testing,
it would have to be black consultingbecause that can sell something that needs to
happen from for exactly yeah, forit to play a demo. But we'll
take both because at least the PlayStationsthat you're playtesters, that you can be
like, wait a minute, lastrates, last minute here right, Franks

(01:19:55):
is hot, looks is you gotto have multiple hot sauces. Franks is
what I call able hot sauce.So you got to have the Franks.
You only really need friends points,really really really so if you got it,
so all right, hold on,hold on, hold on, hold
on, hold on, hold on, hold on wet because we might we
might we might need to have them. We might need need to have some

(01:20:16):
blacks right now. So if yougot some colar greens, right, you
gotta you got green. You putsome greens on on on the table,
right, and someone saw and putthat greens down the plate, and they're
like, hey, I want hotto us. And you give them Franks,
they're gonna be They're gonna be goodwith that. I'm not gonna get
them fris'n I So I'm gonna getting. Yeah, I'm getting Louisiana. I'm

(01:20:42):
getting uh, you know, I'mgetting you know, whatever the divas,
you know, whatever the hot sourcesmy grandfather got. My grandfather had no
Franks. I think the peppers.You got the little Battle of Vinegar what
the peppers said, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's for greens. That's
for greens. Yeah yeah, soyeah, but yeah, like I putting

(01:21:03):
putting are putting free on cheese either, So, um you I got different,
I got different house on for differentfood. What you what you're putting
on your mac and cheese? Yeah, I'm either putting on tabasco or I'm
gonna do I might, I mightget bougie. I might do like some
troufle hot sauce or something like that. Um you know, no, not

(01:21:28):
roch So just for Asian food,you can put on some fried chicken.
Yea, oh fried chicken. I'msorry fried chicken. I'm putting put some
ratchet macaroni and cheese too, andit's good. Yes, okay, we
know I can't cook, but Istill stand by that. Oh my god.

(01:21:54):
Yeah. Black people are not amonol. Um no, actually when
it comes right. So so whatwhat I will say? So two games
that uh that that I think I'llpull out a left field. One one
has already been mentioned, um asas black as black games. Uh yeah,

(01:22:15):
aforementioned God of War twentyeen um andum you know like that that story
when you talk about black paternity,um and and you know, and and
the beauty of of the paternal uhpaternal uh work and you know, um,

(01:22:38):
just relationship between you know, afather and a child. That's that's
gonna be intersexual. That's gonna beintersecual uh analysis right here because you read
it it right, yeah, blackpaternity. But go ahead, right well
so so um so there so tome. So I know that these guys

(01:23:00):
wrote the wrote the game right becausethe guys who wrote the game were fans
of the of the previous series andyou know, and they played the games
when they were younger and now they'reolder, and Naron Dalton they have kids,
and that was part of why theythey developed the game the way that
they did, and the people thatdid that more white. Um. But

(01:23:20):
the character right, and um,the ways that the character interacts with the
world, and more importantly, theway the world interacts with the character is
uniquely black. Right, is uniquelythat of an outsider. Where right and

(01:23:43):
where he is? He is constantlyhaving to justify where he is and why
he's there as he is, ashe is trying to teach his son the
ways of the world and and bothprotect him from and get him ready for

(01:24:10):
the dangers of the world. Um, yes, and and and and that
you know, while it was completelyunintentioned, that was I mean, that
is a that is a black manstory, that is a black augusta um
and uh so, uh so Ithink God warrens an incredibly strong black black

(01:24:36):
game. Um. The other gamethat that I want to mention and it's
not so much that the game is, but there are portions of the game
that are. And that is RedDead Redemption too. What I'm clapping for

(01:24:58):
you on God of War and makingthe case that you have, especially because
of the voice acting, the motioncapture artists. Because of that, and
then because of this the themes thatare that you know, he's this outcast
in a way and they're always messingwith him. And I don't know all
of it. I mean I've onlyplayed a little fraction of it so far,

(01:25:19):
but I totally get that. I'mthere. And then you said Red
Dead Redemption two. Wait, butbefore we got to have played I have
play wait wait wait wait wait waitwait wait wait wait, before we got
to Red Dead Redemption two, Okay, I want to talk about God of
War because I don't know about Ragnor, I don't know about the new one.

(01:25:39):
But two no, no, no, I'm not I'm talking about twenty
eighteen. I'm talking about twenty eighteenhere. Okay, So I think we're
on the same page, but we'retaken a different path to get there.
Ciscer row with God because you youmentioned it as the beauty of black paternity,
and I think about it in termsof the problem of toxic black masculinity.

(01:26:05):
But I think they're the same thing. And I'm gonna tell you what.
I think they're the same ahead becausewhat I see in Cradles in twenty
eighteen is him moving through his ownkind of identity, his own kind of

(01:26:28):
idea and identity as a black father, to get to the point where he
needs to be that nurturing parent thatcan prepare his son for the future.
Right, because there's so much thathas happened in his world and in his

(01:26:48):
understanding of fatherhood and masculinity that preventshim from being the parent that he needs
to be. After the death ofhis wife, he has profound post traumatic
stress. I mean that's oh yeah, yeah, yeah, right, and
he finds the incentive to try towork through that enough to be there for

(01:27:12):
his kid, who I'm worried mightbecome a sociopath. I mean early.
I'm like, what's gonna happen withthis already given me some weird and I
don't know what's going to happen tohim, But Fredos needs to get it
together enough to parent this child.We might will come to James's moment with

(01:27:35):
Trey. It seems like he's tryingto get there though. Yeah. Sure
so. I I'll explain a coupleof things about me. I've got two
sons. Um, My oldest willbe thirty three this year. My youngest

(01:27:57):
turned twenty six this year. Um, both black men. My oldest is
six foot four, my youngest issix foot seven. UM. My my
ex wife when we got married,she had a kidney disease that was supposed
to be fatal and we weren't surewhen it was going to happen. So

(01:28:19):
for long periods of time during thecourse of our marriage, one of my
recurring nightmares was the fact that shewould be gone one day and I'd be
left to raise these boys. Um, and and you know, and so
knowing that reality, it was itwas something or knowing that possibility made made

(01:28:45):
me have to prepare for that eventuality, that potential eventuality. Um, So
you know, and you know Soany anyone who's listening right now, that
is that is the the the parentsof young children, UM know this nightmare,
right, So the first eighteen monthsof being a parent is the recurring

(01:29:11):
nightmare of living vicariously through some otherparents tragedy. Right, is a kid
falls out of a window or somethinglike that, and now you're immediately transporting
yourself into what would that what wouldthat be like if it was my child
and you're going through that strepp right, like you're putting yourself through that that

(01:29:34):
that trauma. Um, And it'syou know, it's it's like the first
eighteen months your your first your firstkid, right, guarantee to happen all
the time. Um. Well,well, unfortunately, when you're thinking about
your spouse and you're doing that kindof stuff, do some of the same
kind of things. Um. Andso that was something that I that I
had gone through. But the otherpart that you know, so like so,

(01:29:59):
so the journey and the story thatCredos was going through the beginning of
this game is something that I immediatelyresonated with. Right. It was something
that that you know, immediately wassomething that I could bring myself back to
from my own path. Um.The other part of that is toxic masculinity

(01:30:20):
is of course, you know,yes, right, like we're we're we're
men. And you know. Thething that I explained to parents of young
boys or pubescent boys is that girlsare easier than pubescent girls are easier than

(01:30:41):
pubescent boys because for the entirety oftheir own life, girls have been told
to embrace their emotions. Right.You know, you hurt yourself, you
cry, you do you know youfeel those emotions. So even when you
get this flood of emotions during puberty, you may not necessarily know where they're

(01:31:02):
coming from, but you've already beenconditioned to deal with that, right,
to deal with, uh, youknow, some spouts of anger or to
embrace when you're like intensely sad andyou don't really know where it came from,
but you know how to ride thatway. Boys, transversely, are
taught to sharden those emotions, right. You know, yes, anger,

(01:31:28):
sure, embrace that, but youknow, but also stunt factory. You're
not going to spie, You're notgonna do any other time of stuff.
But you know you can't cry,You can't do any of those things.
So when a boy gets reaches puberty, he's got all of these emotions and
he like he is powerless to pushto stamp them down, and now he's

(01:31:49):
got to deal with them. Buthe has not been he has not been
built or conditioned with the tools toride those waves out. So it is
it is just it is just justlike a tsunami of feeds that they can't

(01:32:10):
control. And and so, youknow, so when I talk to parents
that are you know, that haveyoung boys, like you just got to
be patient. They don't know whythey're angry. They really don't. They
don't know they're gonna be angry andthey're gonna be jerks, but they like
they just can't help themselves. Um. And part of being an adult black

(01:32:33):
man who survives through through adulthood isis like dealing with purity begin because there
are you know, there are microaggressions, there are actual aggressions. There are

(01:32:54):
you know, there are all sortsof things that are happening in life where
you know, not only do youhave to justify where you are while you're
doing anythings, what's going on,but you also have to manage your emotions
when everything in your brain tells youthat you should be able to feel the

(01:33:15):
way that you feel inside externally,but you can't. And then you've got
to figure out a way to dealwith that energy. But when you see
your kids, and you see yourspecifically your sons, right, your black
son, you also have to teachthem first, Like the first thing you

(01:33:38):
need to teach them is how todeal with the part that they that isn't
fair, right, deal with thepart that isn't fair. Deal with the
fact that people are going to suckwith you. And even though the logical
thing is for you to fuck withthem back, you can't. Can't do

(01:34:00):
that, and that's going to makeyou angry and that's going to do things
to you. But I don't havethe space of the time necessarily right now
to articulate that second part of it. I just have to condition you for
the first part of it, right, And then as you get later into
the game, as as you learnedthat part of the conditioning, then you

(01:34:24):
can go back right and you canand and part of it is your own
self discovery, right. Part ofit is understanding why instinctively this is the
part that I taught my friend first, and why you did that, and
then understanding the like that was thehouse. But this is the why,

(01:34:45):
right, this is the foundation ofwhy, that is what it is,
and explaining all of that stuff sothat so that your son can understand you,
and you can understand your son,and the two of you together can
understand the world. And yes,it is topic maybe, but it's necessary,
right, it was gonna say,because there's that sense of urgency.

(01:35:08):
There's that sense of urgency. Andthis is where I argue even more that
this is a black game, becausethere is that sense of urgency that happens
in the moment because so much isgoing on with other gods and all of
this other stuff in twenty eighteen.I mean, but there is that sense
of urgency when you're talking about dealingwith those those kind of reactionary moments and

(01:35:32):
getting people to understand, getting youngblack men to understand the not fair element
in the moments where where where they'rebeing murdered in the streets. Right.
So it is that that those thosetwo senses of urgency definitely kind of line
up, right, um, Andand you have to and you were talking

(01:35:55):
about the size of the size ofyour sons right right, thinking about out
like young men that large, right, people already want to say that that
a that a twelve year old thata twelve year old little small child playing
Yeah, I mean you know howyou know twelve year old boys are not

(01:36:16):
very big generally, well, likelike AJ and Walking Dead. Why does
he look like a grown man?He's only six? Like his characterisation,
black children are black children. Blackchildren, I would argue more so probably
well in certain circumstances sexualized versus violentways are not allowed to be children.
They have a childhood. You cannotskip that, yeah, you can't.

(01:36:40):
Um. And but so when you'rethinking about that and thinking about say,
large black children, right versus powerfulblack children and God of war, that
that urgency gets escalated, right becausebecause reactions to you and your reaction,

(01:37:00):
two things are going to be amplified, right. Um. Yeah, So
it's it's it's interesting because when whenwhen Tray and I first started having this
conversation a couple of months ago,she was like, God awards a black
game. Sam. I was liketrade I escorting years since role. I
was like this rus saying it.I was like, what you smoking,
Tray, what to play that game? And then uh and and then um,

(01:37:27):
it was about a month or soago. It was over break.
I was like, I'm gonna playRagnarock because I went and I bought myself.
I bought myself a second PS fivefor Christmas to put it in the
game room because my other one isin the office and and anytime I have
to take apart everything in here totake it out in the game room to
play. I was like, no, I'm just I'm not. It's never
gonna happen if I don't buy anotherone. So I was like, but

(01:37:48):
before I play Ragnarrock, I'm gonnago back and watch a complete play through
commentary free playthrough of twenty eighteen torefresh my memory. And I sat there
and I watched I don't know,god knows how many hours of this overbreak.
And after I finished, I textedTrade and I was like, damn
Trade. I was like, Idon't know how I missed this the first

(01:38:11):
time. I don't know how Imissed this the first time. But this
is definitely a black game. Yeah, that's a great example that you know,
it's all of these things. It'sa cultural context. I think the
voice acting. I think if theactor wasn't for Crados, wasn't black,
it might it might still allegorically beabout otherness. But but that also kind

(01:38:32):
of helps. I mean, yousee it and read it and perceive it
in that way. Um. Allright, Cintero, So you got a
pill battle with right. So nowso now again, like I said,
I'm not saying that the game isblack, right, I'm not saying that
at all, um, But whatI am going to say is that there

(01:38:54):
are portions of that game that doa great job of representation of blackness.
Um. There are two black membersof the game in in in that game,
and then there are so well there'sthere are two. Yeah, so

(01:39:15):
there's two two black members of thegame. One came from a reservation and
then the other one was was anescaped slave. Um. And and in
the game, there is a sidemission pretty early on in the game,
there's a side mission where one ofthe black members has been accosted in uh

(01:39:41):
In you know, not only uhin one of the towns. You know,
we want to go and do something, and they, you know,
they didn't necessarily run a foul ofsome people. But but some people didn't
like to cut of his GiB.I don't you know, I wonder why.
But but during the course of thegame and during the course of the
the conversation is one of the oneof the things that I think is brilliant

(01:40:02):
about those games from a critical standpoint, is, um, these self conversations
that you wind up having as you'reriding along, um, depending on who
happens to be in your posse asyou're you're moving along. And if if
you've got one or two of those, the black uh protagonial or the black

(01:40:23):
uh NPCs in your in your posse, they have conversations about where they came
from and who they are and andyou know, and and they do a
fair job of making uh time period, time period relevant back stories for these

(01:40:46):
characters, um and you know andlike. So that's that's one of not
necessarily my criteria for a black blackgame, put a game that allows right
because to me, the goal isto get us to a point not not
necessarily where we're senching out for blackgames that we were, where uh,
where we can have games with blackprotagonists and it not be a big deal,

(01:41:09):
right like, where we can getto the point where we've got black
quarterbacks right like you know, likeyou know, when when you can when
you can finally get a black quarterbackthat you hate, then then you know,
then we don't have a black quarterbackproblem. Right, So if I
can finally get a black protagonist ina video game that I hate, then
then I know that we don't,you know, and I can openly hate

(01:41:29):
it, then I know that wewe've you know, we've reached a certain
point. And in order for usto get there, we need these types
of games, or we need thesetypes of stories in these types of games
where someone that's that doesn't know myhistory or isn't personally impacted by by our
shares, you know, our sharedhistory and our shared tragedy can look at

(01:41:54):
those things and and develop a levelof empathy for our shared tragedies. And
I share histories as a result ofthese things. That's that's something that I
looked for, or I'm I'm verypleased when I find in games and in

(01:42:14):
in Red Redemption too, there areat least two missions. There are two
missions, but the one mission thatI was something about, you know,
the guy gets captured and then heis you know, I'm assuming that he
was going to get lins, butuh, but the main your your your
main protagonists has to go in thereand rescue him, and uh, you

(01:42:38):
know, it was it was harrowingbecause they you know, you know,
they wanted to kill They wanted tokill that nigga, right like that was
that was the thing that they wantedto do. And the fact that they
that you were able to go outand get him and the story that they
that they had that surround at thatmoment, I thought it's really good.

(01:43:00):
Another portion of the game that's that'ssuper cool is the fact that the clans
in the game and you can runup on the clan and burn them,
right, like you can burn youknow, you can go out and you
can burn the plan Like these arethings Again, there's there's intentionality to it
all, um, and I reallyrespect the fact that they're there, uh
in that game and uh, youknow it didn't have to be there,

(01:43:25):
but but it is there, rightand it didn't have to be there,
but but like in order for itcould be a good historical representation of the
time period, it should have beenthere. And the fact that it is
is I think it's it's definitely reallyto be a praise and that they treated
it with um a level of respectthat gave it some weight, right,

(01:43:53):
gave it some gravitas, I thinkis also worthy of praise. I have
not played a Dead reduption too.I have heard things about Red Dead reduction
too that people were like, maybeyou should checked out, and I'm like,
maybe I shouldn't, but I don'tknow. You're making me. You're
making me think I might want toand no trade before you ask. I

(01:44:14):
am not gonna play it on PSfive so you can watch Sam. It's
worse than driving a car. Yougot you gotta ride a horse. You
gonna be able to you gotta beable to draw your horse. Sam doesn't
like driving games, so I meanI don't. I'm bad to drive dricking
game with a horse. You arealways riding that horse. But you know
what, can I can probably adjustthe difficulty level so that I don't crash
into everything on a horse unlike unlikeenforce it. Yeah, I'm just out

(01:44:39):
the horse be injured, your horseto get injured and all that. Uh,
sister, I definitely I think Ivaguely remember that. I mean it
is a minor moment in a prettylong game. But what I do want
remember and Red Dead is a sidemission where you're like through You're like,
I don't know. You know,it's an open world, so you just
set loss and stuff just happens,and it's great. It's great where there's

(01:45:02):
really generated events that you stumble upon. And there's one mission, there's a
Mottle side mission where I think youfind a black man in the in the
woods or in the swamp and he'slike begging you to come back to this
cabin and you you go there andit's this horrific scene of I don't want

(01:45:27):
to get the plot points completely wrong, but I think it's of like you
white men and they have your theyhave this black woman captive, and I
mean there's a very strong suggestion thatyou know there's going to be some sexual
violence or there has already been orsomething, and it's just one of those
moments that you stumble into. Andagain, if I'm playing this, I

(01:45:50):
have pure rage of like what whatwhat can I do to you know,
sort of free them, and youknow, shoot up to see it.
I remember taking video. It wasa play this a while ago, so
I remember doing a recording of itbecause I was so shook and I was
like, I gotta record this.I may never see this again. Of
what was happening, and of theend that the cabin was like all you

(01:46:14):
know, torn up and bloody,and it's just like a really difficult scene
to stumble upon. And so Ido remember that landing in a certain way.
I don't remember the clan being there. The thing is is about these
kinds of what I would ask fora game is if you're going to develop,
you know, kind of add somehistorical depth to your representations as far

(01:46:40):
as blackness is concerned. Great,But in that particular context, what I
don't want is I don't want tobe able to be the kind of person
who plays this game and then appropriatesit in a white supremacist way and says
like, oh, yeah, wellI had I also stumbled upon and I

(01:47:00):
let them, you know, doX, Y and Z and exploit the
situation or rolled up on the youknow, the clan and take snapshots with
them or whatever. I like forthe game to have no equivocation um in
terms of tone and how that hasto be played. I want you these
are open world choice, you know, free free will choice, you know,

(01:47:25):
base games where you can do whateveryou want. I think that you
have to narrow choice, and youhave to narrow things down when it comes
to moments like that, just sothat you can't exploit it. So I
do remember also the Red Dead serieskind of being notorious for being able to
like hog tie this woman hog tiethe feminists right, the women's movement,
you know, kind of taking off, and there are some missions that are

(01:47:47):
adjacent to that and stuff, andthen you know, you you will get
folks who will exploit that, youknow, in the wrong way. And
so I like it when you can'tdo that right, you absolutely can't.
You know, just like you haveNPCs that you can't kill for example,
like because they're their radiant quest orsomething like that. You need them in

(01:48:09):
the in the in the game.And so if those types of representations happen,
and I think that it does adda lot to the experience, to
the story, everything you know,to it. I want you to be
bold enough to lock it down asa developer and say, look, you're
not going to exacerbate the situation.You're not going to go blow up,

(01:48:30):
you know, whatever the protests ofthe cake. You're not doing that.
And I'm not going to give youthat opportunity. And that will frustrate all
the people that want choice and freewill and stuff. But I think that's
a good thing. I think that'sthe kind that is another black king that
reminds me of NBA two K sixteenSpike Lee Live in the Dream, which

(01:48:51):
I also wrote about it. Ithought, even though that story was so
lame in so many ways, thefact that you had to have a biological
relationship to the black family, nomatter what your avatar looked like, no
matter who you kid, you hadto have a black sister and she was

(01:49:11):
biologically black your sister. You weren'tadopted, and that that I don't know
who who who approved that, LikeLee's story was a black family drama and
there was no changing that. AndI like when you take that kind of
creative, artistic and critical control andsay, no, you're gonna have to
experience this in this way. Soif you're gonna have that kind of historical,

(01:49:35):
historically accurate representation, lock it downfor me. Come on, just
lock it down. And you talkedabout and that, let me say,
people did it. I mean people, I don't. I know, I
know you don't have to do it, but people would do that. People
would do it. But I wouldn'teven answer. Something else to that,
though, T is have like failstates not be so um potentially problematic because

(01:50:02):
the reason I stopped playing Red DeadRedemption the first game is because there was
like I wandered into town and um, one of the one of the prostitutes
that the brothel was being harassed bya patron um and they were like and
again, because like you said,I have a problem like driving cars and

(01:50:25):
riding horses, it took me awhile to get where I needed to get
to find where I need to findhim. By the time I got there,
she was laying in the street andbeing beaten by the patron and he
as I walked up and before heI think, I think he killed her
in that moment. But the lastutterance from his mouth before I shut the

(01:50:47):
game off was shut up, bitch, before I cut you a new hole.
And I was like, nope,I'm out. Yeah, Yeah,
it's those things are they're they're leftunchecked. Now. You know, we
would have said if that happened inMafia three, we're blowing everybody away.

(01:51:08):
They can because because you know that'sready to listen, it listens in you
and you're responding in that way,and so you know, I don't know,
that's a that's a that's just adifficult thing. Like if you're going
to have that in your game havingin your game, Um, it's supposed
to represent you know, the misogynyand the violence of the of the culture.

(01:51:29):
But there are ways in which youget lost in that and you're starting
to glorify it. And there's afine line. But two those rock stars,
you know, the constant conversation aroundlike rock Star games, and so
what where is the line of akind of you know, representation and a
kind of spectacle and a glorification ofthe thing, Like where do we reside

(01:51:50):
in all of that? And Ithink that you can make some moves some
of the time to to shut thatdown so that it can't be used as
um, this sort of gratifying spectaclethat just sort of supports this, this
this violence at large against mostly peopleof color, black people and women and

(01:52:10):
other marginalized adductivities. Like I justwant you to figure out how to protect
that a little when you're when you'redoing this. So here's here's where I
will disagree with you, Trey.I don't believe that they should limit uh
yeah, limit the choice there.I think that I think that it sets

(01:52:34):
it says something when you give someonethis scenario, right, well, you've
you've been you've embodied this character fora while, so you have you're essentially
it is a role play version ofthis character and yourself, this amalgamation of
those two uh, you know,those two ideologies. So and you come

(01:52:59):
across this particular scenario if you decideto walk away, you know, do
you you know what kind of conversationare you having with yourself afterwards? Right?
Are you seeing that's what I thinkthe character would do, or that's
the choice that I wanted to makeit? If you're if that's the choice
that you're making, why are youmaking that choice? Right? So,
like I want you to have Iwant you to be able to have that

(01:53:21):
conversation, and and and many ofthe people that would decide not to save
that black person aren't going to havethat conversation, but some people will,
right, Like, my goal isn'tto the goal shouldn't always be to to
force the hearts and minds, right, it's to hope to change the hearts
of mind. And you're not gonnahope. You know, you're not gonna

(01:53:43):
hope and change all of them.My favorite comedian of all time was a
guy named patrico'neion and Patrice would say, I don't want everybody to love my
show. In fact, I wantsome people to hate it. I want
some people to walk out right,because I'm not pushing me on a lot.
I'm not getting to the to therazor's edge of of where comedy should

(01:54:06):
be in the controversy should be inthese truths should be. If everybody's agreeing
with me, right, somebody's gotto be on the other side. So
I know where that side is.And and so you know, when it
comes to that kind of stuff likeyeah, not everybody's gonna sit back and
really, um have have you know, an introspective moment about why they made

(01:54:31):
the choices that they made in thatparticular moment. But some people might.
And and it's those people that youthat you need to go. You need
to go after. I think aboutthe opposite in a game like Watchdogs,
right, Watchdogs is a game thatyou and I. You know you and
I. You came on on smallon me and it was one of the
first games that we ever discussed.And you know, talking about my adopted

(01:54:56):
home came Chicago. You're you knowthe printing you sent very very great formative
years um and and it's being representedin this game by Ubisoft. And uh
like here we are with with yourrandom UBI self and UBI self man,
right like the protagonists, just likeevery other right, you know, diverty

(01:55:18):
something white dude, um, andhe could be a jack of all trades
and he could stun people and doall sorts of things and you know,
change your ATM code and and youknow bury your drows in the in the
backyard and you can't find him theright you could do all sorts of things,
so all sorts of people you canson him. He can do all
that stuff, and he can youknow, completely go through the game and

(01:55:42):
be a passive you know, notnecessarily a pastasist, but being non illegal.
Right, you know, everybody couldwalk away from from all those interactions
until the mission where he has todeal with the black people and he goes
into the games version of Cabringing Greenthe Projects, and in that moment he
you know, he's got you know, the they're all drug dealers one um.

(01:56:05):
And then he goes into the projects. Everybody's got everybody's arms and they
do, you know, doing allthe stuff, except for the kids that
are the the hip hops freestyling gamethat all in the corner doing the boop
thing with the bloom box. Um. But you know, you get you

(01:56:25):
to dismission, and this is themission where you have to murder everyone.
Right. You have a choice.You had choice the entire game on how
you decided to incapacity your your foes, the entire game. But as soon
as you get into this moment,you drop down through this hole and and

(01:56:47):
you've got to you have the elementof surprise on the person that you dropped
in on, but the only weaponthat you have at your disposal is a
pistol. You've got to kill everyone, right, So and and you know
that was the moment when that gamereally just like it was starting to jump
the shark. You know, itwas seeking the ramp already, but but

(01:57:09):
it's left over the shark and youknow what, you know, jumped over
the problematical um and landed into intoracist ocean um like at that point,
right and and and you know again, so I mean that's them removing that
choice. And you know, somy only my only choice at that moment

(01:57:30):
was to murder, yeah, becausethat was the only people I had to
murder, was me, right right, I'm saying I think you had to
follow the ideological consequences of locking downor having the choice being open and follow
it to its end. If ifI'm going to take away your choice in
that scenario, then what what arethe ideological consequences? But what am I

(01:57:53):
saying about you know, this communityand that being your only way to to
to to meet your goal. UmSo I ultimately it's authentic that you have
to go in and kill the blackpeople, but you can solve it through
your tickiness, through your through yourmanipulation, and you're hacking of things.
Most other times you're able to beJeff Hacker dude, but now you got

(01:58:17):
to be like murder murderer, youknow. So it's just that that ideologically
is problematic, and I think thattakes us to uh, you know,
the wrong types of conclusions. Ido think they're wrong and right conclusions,
and I'm okay with saying lock itdown in a way that feels ideologically progressive
at least. But the thing Isay about art in general, about games,

(01:58:41):
and I would say probably art two, is that I don't believe that
you can create empathy through these things. I don't. I don't think that
representations create empathy. I think thatthe people who want to recognize the humanity
of whoever is being, you know, represent in it here the people who
can and want to already do andin they're sort of lived and shared experiences.

(01:59:08):
I don't know that a work ofart is going to do that create
the kind of empathy, especially whenit comes to racial representation. I think
we see time and time again,even in the landscape of the cell phone
recorded murders, constant murders of blackpeople, we will have those for whom

(01:59:30):
it will never be convincing. Theywill never see what I see, which
is murder, right, They willnever be able to see murder because they
don't see the humanity of the ofthe black person on the ground, and
they will. That will not changeif they have a moment, a thoughtful
moment in a game that gives thema choice that that's already that choice has
already been made. And so whatI think you do that can be productive

(01:59:57):
is you subvert that sense of agentssee from from that person who will say
I see you. I mean tomake a choice here about what to do
either hug tie the you know,the feminists or not. And I'm going
to think about it. I thinkthat no, you lock that down and
frustrate the person who has this illusionof control and wants to use this game,

(02:00:19):
um, this this technological enterprise,you know, as a as a
way of just doubling down and reinforcingthe things that they already believe. So
but that But I'm in the minoritythere because there are people who will say,
what about Uncle Tom's cabin? Whatabout things that actually, you know,

(02:00:39):
works of our Actually we're catalysts forsomething. And I think that again,
what I often think those things dois galvanize people who already believe,
galvanize people who already see and likethat way. But I do not think
they convert people who who are intentionallyresistant that I would. I would argue

(02:01:02):
that I would. So I would, I wouldn't. I won't completely disagree
with you. But what I willargue is is that while it it may
not, it may not convert people. Again, it's not about necessarily converting
people, but it's I think arthas the ability to allow someone to envision

(02:01:30):
something that they didn't necessarily think aboutprior to seeing it, right and and
and so if you are open tothe idea, right, So I think
uh twenty four right was his identistHasbert. He played President Palmer in the
first season of twenty four, andpersonally, I believe that had President Palmer

(02:01:57):
not existed, we would have gotin Barack Obama as President of the United
States because America got to see,you know, the first couple of seasons,
the twenty four wildly successful UM.You know, got to see Kiefer
Sutherland be the American you know,James James Bond in the post nine to
eleven world, and we got tosee a black man as president whom everyone

(02:02:26):
rallied behind and and was someone whowas wildly popular. UM. That his
that the fact that he was thathe was black did not sully his ability
to govern. UM for those peoplethat would would be worried about that,

(02:02:47):
And I think for the people thatwere watching, they were able to see
the they were able to see apresident who happened to be black and not
a black president. And I thinkthat Barack Obama UM was a candidate who
happened to be black, UM,and not necessarily a black candidate in many

(02:03:11):
of the same ways that then,is that that President Palmer was a president
that happened to be black and nota black president. And I think those
same people that watched twenty four sawBarack Obama and said, hey, you
know what, like for whatever reason, they had already become conditioned with the

(02:03:32):
idea that maybe this isn't impossible,right, Like it is possible for a
guy to be a black you know, a black candidate and not or a
candidate who happens to be black andnot a black candidate. Um So,
so I definitely look at art andand see it as a way for things

(02:03:58):
to get to get better. StarTrek right or Horra and and and Captain
Kirk kiss on screen it's the firstinterracial kiss, yeah in television history,
and then out to be an asshole. There are meaningful an asshole right,
Yeah, those are meaningful and symbolicmoments in art. But that kiss does

(02:04:19):
not convince the racist that it's thatit's kind of cool now that it's okay.
But you know what, but you'renot, but you're not. But
you're not gonna You're not gonna convinceyou you're not. That's it's not going
to convince the racist. But whatyou what you but who but who you
make convince is the racist nephew who'slike, you know, I love I

(02:04:43):
love my uncle. If you saidyou one if shit sometimes yeah right or
you know, you know, likeI've never really hung out with any black
people. But I don't think okay, you know, like I don't think
that everything that you're saying is,oh, I like Captain Kirk tis kissed
over, you know, I kindof it's kind of hut, maybe I'll

(02:05:04):
go out and kiss, you know, a black woman, right, like,
like those are the things that thatthey can they can inspire, you
know that I'm advocating, yeah,right, right, but but yeah,
but it's but but you know,you're never going to You're never going to
like there's there's no three spirits ofracist pass that are going to go into

(02:05:30):
a racist you know, like andthey're gonna ever need to squeeze their way
into changing their lives. It's notgonna happen. Right, Well, I'm
not worried about those guys. Thenthen then let's grant that there might be
a chance to to persuade or influencethe undecided. Will say, if you're
never you have the sort of peoplewho are going to be empathetic to that

(02:05:53):
anyway, because they already are andthey recognize the humanity of black people.
And then you have on the otherend and the racists who are never ever
going to give that up. They'renever going to yield. And so there's
that, and then you have maybesome sector of people who who who could
be undecided which whatever way they're goingto go. But to bring it back

(02:06:15):
to games, then I argue thatyou you don't want to leave that open
to choice. You don't want toleave whether that kiss happens or not.
If we're programming this into a gameexperience and you're like, hey, you
know that kiss could happen or itcouldn't happen. What do you think I
don't. I think you make thedecision as a designer, as a developer,

(02:06:38):
and say that kiss is happening.You you cannot forward this kiss,
You cannot blow up this couple.You cannot do weird sadistic shit to them.
No, right, I'm putting thatthat haze, that protective bubble around
them because I'm making that argument foryou to see. And that's just what
I'm saying about these these kinds ofrepresentations is that I need more of that

(02:07:00):
agency, you need that BioShock infinitemoments but okay, guys, I mean,
we we I feel like there's somuch more to say. We even
talked about swimsuits. Wait wait waitwait wait wait time time time, you

(02:07:20):
gotta you gotta give me one.You gotta give me one because I didn't
get sneaking in. We talked aboutit. I gotta disqualify one, okay,
which is just qualifying. I'm disqualifyingfor spoken. Oh yeah, you're
gonna see any spoken. Why doyou just qualifying for spoken? I am

(02:07:41):
disqualifying for spoken because there's so manythings that play that would make it a
black game. You have a blackprotagonist and a black voice actress, and
when you have no black people inthe room, and when someone asks your
your designer, how you made thischaracter, this black character black quote unquote

(02:08:05):
black, culturally black in that momentwhen you had no black people in the
room, and he said, well, we started out by giving her a
hip hoppy cand of walk. Yeah. Tom Keagan said, we gave her
a hip hopy cand of walk.Automatically disqualified. I mean, and aside

(02:08:31):
from the fact that they put herthey put her criminal record exactly that they
put her criminal record in the Kodex, and that The first give of her
in the in the fantasy space isin box chains surrounded by white people like
a slave. That is the LeeEvert effect. You got her criminal record

(02:08:52):
on the Kodex. Just update youon Okay, here's here's here's how we
know this black person. She gota hip hop acind of walk. You
know. Um, I would saythat all that all stands to reason and
that all makes sense as a youknow, if you want to exclude for

(02:09:13):
spoken, is it for spoken?Forsaken? Spoken were spoken from from the
black, from the realm of blackness. That's fine, ejected. But I
would also always like to play thesegames and experience the objectionable you know content.

(02:09:33):
It's myself, you know, becauseis there gonna be a kid out
there that plays this and is thenext time she's she sees this, you
know, the box art for thatgame, and it's like, mom,
you know, can I get thisgame and plays it and you know,
maybe doesn't have all of this backstory, he doesn't know about the hip hop
walk and no plaque creatives and anythingand plays this game and attaches to this

(02:09:56):
character. I mean again that it'spossible. I would love to play it
to know, to come back witheven more ammunition for you. Sam.
That's what I'm saying is that youknow, we don't know the cultural life
of these objects, but I wouldlove to play it, to give,
to give more, because I'm surethey're gonna be cracks throughout. If that's

(02:10:16):
how it starts, then the experienceit has not gotten good reviews from what
I understand, it hasn't been doingwell. So those cracks are going to
be evident. And what we're talkingabout is a sense of authenticity, right
that that that that whatever, there'sno monolithic Black experience, but there are
ways in which an image seems toring true and to see carry some sort

(02:10:37):
of truth to it in whatever youknow direction, And this is probably not
it. I mean. So that'sthat's what you have to do your carbon
offset though, Trey. If youand you gotta buy it, don't sale
or buy a second or buy usedso that the so so that squareness ain't
getting no money. You gotta dosomething. I would have put it in

(02:11:00):
to my Hogworks legacy fund. Ifyou buy for Spoken, you've got it.
You've got to buy uh double theamount of copies of Treachery and Denser.

(02:11:20):
There you go, because I withthat, I support on all the
platforms. You know, by nowyou gotta four hanging around. You got
five, you got Xbox, yougot Steam, you know switch I B
I got like five versions of Treachery. So yeah, there you go.
That's that's what I would do.Um yeah, So that's that's actually a

(02:11:43):
game, um you know where whereblackness not only not only is blackness self
evident in it um, but alsouh being a New Yorker is self evident
in it um. And that's that'suh tree beat Down City. Um A
what a great game from from agreat creator and you know, a good

(02:12:07):
friend. So uh yeah, ifyou guys haven't played back, definitely definitely
go. Yeah yeah, go toyour favorite gaming console and uh post some
money down for Treachery and beat DownCity because that's a game that I I
just played recently because I don't playa lot of fighters anymore because my hands

(02:12:30):
are so bad. But so Iwas in my mind, I was thinking,
I'm like, this is a fighter. I'm not gonna be able to
play this. And Trey and Iwere talking about it. We've been talking
about it, and Trey was like, you gotta play it. So I
was like, fine, I justplayed it in short and then I was
like, this is not even whatI thought it was in terms of the
mechanics of the game. But yes, right in terms of thinking about it

(02:12:52):
in terms of blackness and black experience, and yes, there is no black
modelist, but there is that underlying. Um, there is that underlying kind
of cultural connection that you could feelkind of through a lot of different things,
not only not only in terms oflike how other people receive you,
right, but also like in termsof thinking about things like the criminal justice

(02:13:16):
system, in terms of thinking aboutlike all kinds of things that are so
kind of nuanced. Um, andin those very short social interactions that you
have between between fights. I thinkis it is what makes that like a
game that you definitely don't want tomiss. Yeah, and I went through

(02:13:37):
out their Aerial Nights Never Yield.I really enjoyed that game as a runoff
which set and the Futuristic Detroit withI also say you have to play that
game. Yeah, throw Throw Masterin Beverly Hills, cop and um,
that game is a lot of funtoo. I just want to leave that

(02:13:58):
you uh sister on Sam and theaudience with these final thoughts about the nutritional
benefits of red cabbage. Oh mygod, no system. Oh it moves
bone string. I mean googled it. She googled it. It's a super

(02:14:24):
food, of course, googet it. This is why I put it in
everything. It is the keto longevityyou need to get. Everybody needs to
eat some red cabbage, preferably raw. So my mistake is I've been cooking
it and everything I need to eatit raw? What was I eat lots
of raw red cabbage? Who putsthe cabbage is kind of purple? Exactly?

(02:14:52):
Don't don't get me started on beats. Don't get me started on beats.
Oh my goshoods on that note,on that note, try to mess
up everything. Try to mess upeverything with that red cabach. I'm just
kidding, dragging, but don't onrear capa. Uh, thank y'all for

(02:15:13):
an amazing conversation. And please,y'all, uh we'll come back and talk
about black games or any kind ofgames, because except for Hallward's legacy,
uh, anytime in time, intime. I appreciate y'all and I and
I appreciate the conversations that that weresparked. That conversations that were sparked.

(02:15:35):
So with that, that's gonna bringus to the end of episode two hundred
and forty and once again, thankyou so much to tray Rest Firm and
since Row Holmes Um and uh untilnext time we'll hit episode two hundred and
forty one, y'all stay safe andas always, game one. Then anything

(02:16:50):
should should master to master the father'sfame, the need to to make the

(02:18:18):
needed to make h

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Episode 240: Black Games for BHM: Or; The Blackity Black Episode (Part 1?)

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