Episode 244: It's All About Art: A Conversation with Christian Vasquez and Leah Augustine

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:33):
Hello, and welcome to episode twohundred and forty four of the Not Your
Mama's Gamer podcast, the podcast wherewe talk about living, working, and
playing in and around the games industry, and we do so from a feminist
perspective. My name is Samantha Blackman, and I'm an associate professor here at
Purdue University in West Lafayette, Indiana, and I am joined it tonight by

(00:54):
one of our usual co hosts,Jordan Lukomski, and two amazing guests.
Jordan, how about your takeover?Who are you? How are you?
Thank you? I'm doing pretty good. I am a Jordan working in Los
Angeles at that snow moon at theThings and Stuff Project, where our two
guests also come tonight, Leah andChris, some of my co workers at

(01:19):
the Things and Stuff Project. Thankyou so much for joining us. How
are you doing today? Doing good? Yeah? Thank you for having us.
Yeah, thank you so much.I am so excited to talk to
y'all tonight. This is gonna bea blast. So we're gonna start with

(01:40):
our usual what's playing, what's reading, what you're drinking, And because we
like to pretend we have manners aroundhere, we're gonna start with our guests
and how about we go rever howto clockwise on my screen? Chris,
what are you playing lately? Yeah? Hi, everybody. My name is

(02:00):
Christian Vasquez. I'm a Matari artist. That that's the man. And when
I'm playing, I usually play pubG a lot. I'm pretty obsessed with
it. I've been playing that sincethey came out. Um, And what
I'm reading is I'm reading the completemaking of Indiana Jones the films. I'm

(02:22):
really excited about the new one that'scoming out in the summer. And what
I'm drinking is uh. I'm nota big drinker, but me and my
partner found is uh doctor pepper shrubbersand cream drink that we've been adding whiskey
too recently that we've been obsessed with. So that's what That's what I've been

(02:43):
drinking a bit lately. There wego. I've seen people like on social
media drinking that with like flavored tequilas, and I was like, how with
that taste? Like, I'm nota I'm not a big I'm not a
big soda drinker. Um, butI was like, that's that's kind of
interesting. I might try that once. But yeah, I like it.

(03:07):
I'm not a big drinker either,and when I do drink, I like
like really sweet drinks. So it'sbeen a nice, nice mixed for me.
A go I was strawberry and creamflavor, Doctor Pepper. That's crazy
zero zero sugar, by the way, I'll see if they have a zero
sugar, they have a zero sugarone, I might try it. See.

(03:28):
That's the reason I don't drink.I don't drink regular soda because I
am I don't want to say sensitiveto you. My taste blas are sensitive
to corn syrup. So if thingshave corn syrup in them, that is
like always the flavor that comes tothe fore for me. So like all
regular soda just tastes like corn syrupto me. Yeah, I feel that.

(03:50):
Yeah. There was a good whilewhere I just gave up soda for
a few years, and then whenI drink it again, it was just
like over like sugar overload. Mokay, sweet, all right, m
leah. How about you? Whoare you? How are you tell us
about yourself? What do you whatyou're doing lately? Sure? My name's

(04:10):
Leo Augustine. I'm an environment artist. Also at that snow Moon with Chris
and Jordan Um. For what I'mplaying, I'm currently playing the R four
remake. Uh yeah, I juststarted it. And for reading, I'm
reading Before They Are Hanged, whichis by Joe Ammacrombie. Um. Reading
it in like a book club thatI'm in with some friends. And for

(04:33):
drinking, I'm drinking a Negroni becauseI'm a big gin fan. But you
forgot the rest a Negroni Spogliatoco.I'm just kidding. It's also a really
good combo. But I'm a biggin fan, so I like like a
classic Negroni. Nice. All right, Jordan, what about you? What

(04:58):
are you up to? I'm continuingto play postion nomics. Based on last
time we talk, I have goodnews. I did not lose the competition.
I was able to salvage it allthe potions that I sold right before
the competition I built in the lastday and we were still going strong.
So still enjoying that game. HopefullyI can finish it in the next week

(05:24):
or so, because it's not asuper long game, but I love talking
with everybody, and then I'm alwaysworking up until the bell to get the
potions in for the competition. AndI have learned my lesson from last time
from accidentally selling all my potions thatI saved more often, so going strong
on that game save it. Reading. I have so much to read.

(05:49):
My bookshelf is overflowing and I'm justsadly staring at it. I have the
Inheritance trilogy waiting, I have theThrong books waiting, which I really got
to get on those now that theAsoka trailer was released from Star Wars celebration.
All the Avatar comics, Oh,I guess, yeah, I've so
much, but I'm not reading anyof them, so it's kind of boring

(06:13):
and sat on that end, Iguess. And then drinking. I am
currently drinking what's called the Black HouseModern Times Coffee Stout, and this it's
it's totally within my flavor profile.I love coffee, I love dark stouts,
so I love it. But everytime I see this beer listed,

(06:36):
it's always listed under a slightly differentname, so on like the actual website,
it's just like Modern Times Coffee Stout, and then at certain restaurants it's
like Black House Coffee Stout. Soliterally, for three years I thought these
were two separate beers, and ModernTimes is sold everywhere in California except for

(07:00):
the Coffee Stout. So I waslooking for it all throughout my time in
San Diego and then I finally foundit on the shelves here and I was
like, oh my gosh, I'mso excited. Up for three years,
I can finally try this. Turnsout it's just my go to beer from
the place that we drank on thecorner. It's just they don't put the
full name on so um I drankand I was like, wow, this

(07:20):
tastes exactly like Oh, let meread the full label. Oh, so
it's good. I love it.Obviously it's my go to. Not as
a celebratory as I thought it wasgoing to be though. That's fine,
But okay, this is what I'mgonna need you to do, Jordan.
Do you have any vanilla ice creamin the house. I do not.

(07:43):
Oh, I need you to makea I need you to make a beer
shake out of that and see whatit sounds so good. Yeah, I'm
gonna need you to do that.I'm gonna need you to do that next
time. Let me write it down. I was like, we'll forget.
I'm gonna be honest. I don'tthink I've ever had a coffee stop.

(08:03):
Now, I'm really curious about it. Do you like find some tomorrow?
Yeah? Do you like like toffee, caramel, guinness flavors? Uh?
Guess. I don't drink a lotof beer, but if it tastes like
coffee, I drink a lot ofcoffee. I'll try it. You might

(08:24):
like it, you might like it. Jordan and I are similar that we
both like really like coffee, andboth really like stouts. Coffee styles are
really good. Um yeah, Iagree, mm hmm. If you like
coffee, you'll probably like it.Yep. Cool and coffee stout milkshake sounds

(08:46):
amazing. I know that sounds sogood. Now, all right, let's
see which point was reading? Whatyou drinking? Okay, you're done?
Okay, so um me, it'smy turn. Um So I have I've
been playing a couple of different things. I've been playing my newest kind of
farming simulator slash marketing simulator has beenTravelers Rest and it's been super fun.

(09:13):
It's one of those games where youlike have to collect all your resources and
do your minding and grow your stuff, like and then use all that stuff
in your inn and so the onlyproblem is is that I really love farming
simulators. So I'll be like farmingfor like days, and then I'll be

(09:37):
like, oh, I have notopened my end slash bar in like four
days. Um, so then I'llhave to I have to remind myself that
I'm supposed to be doing both.Um. But it's really fun and there's
like some really kind of hilarious momentsin it, um and some interesting characters
that you get to uh interact with, So I'm really liking that U.

(10:01):
I also checked out Deceived ink um. It's a kind of a school well
it is squad based, but youcan play a solo as well, but
like a different take on social deception. You play like a nineteen sixties spy
and you have to like sneak aroundand um and get the item that you're

(10:22):
supposed to get and then sneak outbefore anybody catches you. But then there's
like nine other spies that are alsothere, and you can you can take
on different personas, so you haveto try to figure out who's who without
them figuring out who you are.UM. It's I've only played it by
myself so far, and it's alot of fun. But I think it

(10:46):
would be a whole lot more funwith other people. UM. And then
those types of games. The lastone that I played that was similar to
that was Deceit UM. Haven't playedit in a while, but in that
game, you are in a squadand then like every minutes, the lights
goes off and two people will becomelike monsters and try to infect the other
people. Oh um, so it'skind of scary, but yeah, it

(11:09):
reminds me of that. So ifyou need another coat person I began to
try it's fun. Yeah, Iwant to try it too. Yeah yeah,
um, Hey, look see peopleto play these kinds of games with.
UM. Most of my friends areare shooting just like a first person
shooter or third person shooter players,not really into squad shooters. So it's

(11:31):
always hard for me to find Icomplained about this all the time. I
feel like it's always hard for meto find people to play these games with.
UM. But yeah, so yeahUM and uh a full disclosure,
I got a code for that UMgame for like streaming every few purposes,
so um, yeah that thing.And then the last thing that I've been

(11:52):
playing UM is for the longest UMI've wanted to I've wanted to learn to
play Valori. Um, and thatmakes me tilted. I can't play it.
It makes me so tilted. SoI'm one of those people that,
like, I never get mad playinggames. So I'm always okay playing like

(12:16):
you know, like other people are, like I break things what I play
Call of Duty or Overwatch or likeany and I'm like, I'm like,
I just go in knowing I'm reallybad at it. I know I piss
everybody else off. But um,it's like you're having a good time exactly,

(12:37):
That's exactly. That's exactly how Igo into those games, just looking
to have a good time and mso and and I'm not. I don't
usually play my shooters keyboard and mouseeither, right, I play a lot
of Call of Duty and Halo andThe Division, like what The Division had

(12:58):
my soul there for a good longtime. But so I played a lot
of shooters but like first and thirdperson, but I always played I usually
played them on controller. So forme to take a Valerie was not only
taking on a totally different, totallydifferent game, but also learning to play
a keyboard and mouse. Um.And then I did the dump thing over

(13:20):
the weekend because I started playing overthe weekend. And I spent an entire
day like playing over the weekend.Um, and uh, I had like
unlocked all kinds of stuff. Andthen I was like I also was just
kind of oblivious, right because it'sbeen a very long week. And I
went into the store and I waslike, let me check out the battle

(13:41):
pass. So I went into thestore and I'm like, this is weird.
Why isn't this in dollars? Andthen I was like, man,
So I just kept playing. Andthen and then after a while, I
was like, why are we startingto get boughts? It's like five to
thirty six o'clock in the afternoon.M And then and then I was like,
and nobody's speaking English, and itwas now mind you, I had

(14:03):
been playing all day. Uh,this is this is how this is just
kind of how out of it Iwas that day. Um. And then
I went and looked at my settings. I my region was set to I
Rock. Uh. Yeah, I'man idiot. And I was like,
this makes no sense. It's it'slike it's attached to my Xbox account.

(14:26):
Um, why did it not justpick up my region from my Xbox account?
Who knows why you did it?UM, so I had to go
in and um change my region toUS. UM. It was like,
well, just go to the website. So I went to the website,
and the website immediately said, itlooks like you're set to where you're set
to Irock, but it looks likeyou're in the US. Would you like

(14:48):
for us to change it? SoI clicked yes, and UM. Then
I went back into the game andit gave me an error message and they
were like, restart your game.So I restarted my game. When I
restarted my game, UM, thefirst thing you did was take me back
into the tutorial, which I haddone six or eight hours ago. Yeah,

(15:09):
it reset all my progress and tookall my stuff back. I was
like, okay, I'm done forthe day. I'm done for the day.
I cannot oh my gosh. Yeah. So um that was the day
that I started and almost quit Valoriantat the same time. Uh. And

(15:33):
then I, UM, I playedwith some I played with some folks I
know, like last night, UM, and like restarted and it was it
was kind of fun, but youknow it was. The funny thing was
was that I was like, well, the bright side of it is,
um, at least now I knowa little I know how to play a

(15:56):
little bit, so it's not likestarting. Note they can't take the knowledge
back even though they took all mystuff back. M Is it as fast
paced as overwatched? That I haven'tplayed Valerie, but I did put a
lot of vowers into Overwatch. Youknow what, I don't feel like it
is right because one of the thingsthat they say during the tutorial is that,

(16:17):
um, it's important to take yourshot standing still. Oh okay,
right, because because of like theaim and figuring out where people are going
to appear, is you're you're doingmore standing still, which means you die
a lot more because other people aredoing the same thing. But it's a
it feels it's not necessarily slower paced, but it's just it's just different in

(16:41):
terms of what the kind of expectationsare for for aiming and shooting. Yeah,
yeah, okay, because my aimsucks. Yeah, I need to
try to that because I feel likeI stopped playing Call of Duty and overwatched
because it's just too fast for me. Now, Like I'll stop for a
few months and then I come backand it's like it's like overload. Everyone's

(17:06):
just twitch shooting me back. Ilike twitch shooters and like slow paced,
more slower shooters like Valeriant, likegive me stress. Um. I am
in my fifties now, and yeah, I'm happy to stand still. I
was. I was. I waslike much more into the fast paced kind

(17:27):
of the faster pace of Call ofDuty and Doom and all that stuff when
I was in my twenties and thirties. And you know, but as I
as I get older, I'm like, I'm happy to stay still. Thank
you very much. Still sit downanymore. That's funny. I'm drinking this

(17:49):
Snagroni out of a Valeriant glass.See that just says you should go back
to playing valid Um. And I'mmom, I'm always willing to be carried.
I'm just saying, and I'm terrible. Yeah, so that's what I'm
playing. And I'm always happy totalk about Valiant or the video games.

(18:15):
But we want to talk about wewant to talk about y'all's work tonight.
And I'm gonna let Jordan go firstand ask the first question that we have
and get the conversation started. Yeah, So again, thank you so much
for taking the time speaking with us. I know we talk almost every day,

(18:37):
but a lot of these questions.I also don't know the answer too,
because usually we're talking about star Warsor cats, which is a lot
of fun. But I'm really excitedto hear about both of your journeys and
what you've learned and your knowledge.So the first question that I want to
jump in on is a conversation thathas been going on for years now,

(19:00):
and that's the question of do yougo to university? Do you self taught
by like YouTube or choosing certain onlineclasses, do you do mentorships? And
really good conversation, but a lotof the conversations that at least I hear
or are privy two usually end withdon't go to school, it's a waste
of money, or I can seethe pros of cons of both, but

(19:22):
it doesn't really go into the aspectsthat that person found helpful or not helpful.
So yeah, my overall question iswhat were your journeys to breaking into
the industry and what aspect of thosejourneys did you find the most beneficial and
the least beneficial. Sure, doyou want to go first? Christ Yeah,

(19:48):
I'll go, I'll go first.I was at university for five years.
It took me a while to figureout what I I wanted to do,
Like I knew I wanted to workinggames, but for me, it
was like a lot of trial anderror, Like I didn't know like that

(20:11):
there were different disciplines when you makegames. And when I first started,
I think I started programming and Ihated that, and then I switched over
to the design and I didn't likethat. And then I started getting to
some animating and I started liking that. But then the market in the Midwest

(20:32):
for animation studios is pretty close andnone. And then I switched over to
just doing game art on my ownthe last year. And the way I
found that was I got with agroup of friends who used to like doing
a lot of game jams, andthey were all designers and programmers, and

(20:52):
since I switched over to just learninghow to model and stuff, I kept
getting pulled into just making art forthem. That's where I kind of found
my footing of like doing props andenvironments. Um. But I think it's
always a tricky topic about like doyou go to school do you not?

(21:12):
Because when I was starting, likethere wasn't there wasn't a lot of like
YouTube tutorials and just you know alot of that information wasn't online, And
the place that I would like reallygo to was a place called polycount that
isn't like super active anymore still around, but I think nowadays everyone's it's mostly

(21:36):
like on our station or you know, going to discord, and it's all
kind of split off into its owncommunities. Um. But my last year
of university, that's where I waslike really digging for information was on that
forum. Um. But for forschool, I think I think for me,

(21:57):
it just kind of helped me thatmy toes and a bunch of different
things and help me figure out whatI wanted to do. And I think
if I wasn't in school, likeI don't know if I would have been
able to experiment that like that muchlike or find a focus and a group

(22:17):
of people to kind of push meto find that I liked art. And
I think I guess it depends onthe person, right, Like if if
you could really like focus and disciplineyourself to like find that yourself, I
don't think you need school, butif you do need like other people who

(22:37):
help you kind of find that focused, And I think that's where school could
be beneficial. Yeah, I agreewith that I'm also for the like in
the same opinion of I don't thinkyou have to go to school if you
don't want to. It's whatever makessense to you. For me as well,

(23:00):
I was in school for seven yearsso and it's because I also have
a master's degree, so I waspart of it. But my undergrad was
also five years because I initially wentto school knowing that I wanted to do
art, but at the time Iwas doing photography and I did that for

(23:22):
a period of time. And thecollege that I went to, their art
program was very fine art focused,very much like you know, you're going
to have like art shows and artgalleries and be this conceptual artist, which
was not quite what I was lookingfor. It didn't quite match what I
wanted to do, and so Iactually spent some time as it doing geology.

(23:48):
It made me leave art altogether fora period of time, and very
quickly I realized, yeah, Ido want to do art, it's just
I know I want to be afine artist. And that's where I found
animation, and more specifically like threeD animation for film. So I actually
transferred schools to pursue animation, andso that's why my undergrad Tate took like

(24:17):
an extra year for me because transferringkind of mess things up. But luckily
I was also going to like stateschools. I didn't go to like a
private art college. And I knowa lot of people in game or an
animation tend to pursue an art schoollike SCAT or Wringling, which can be

(24:37):
incredibly expensive, which is why Ipersonally chose not to go to them at
the time, because I just Ididn't want to pay for it. I
didn't want to take that much instudent loans, and I know people working
in the industry today that still arepaying off those student loans because it's really
expensive. Yeah. Yeah, I'veheard that about Noman being b insponsive.

(25:00):
Yeah, And so yeah did animation. And while in animation, I fell
in love with lighting and like vizdev and rendering, and then that's kind
of how I found game art.And so for me, I found game
art through what I liked doing,and that's environment art just like checked off
every box of what I love.I love lighting, I love photography and

(25:26):
environments, and so it was itwas perfect and I didn't find that until
also, literally I was about tograduate and Luckily, my school had a
grad program that was like in thesame building that my undergrad was in,
and I was able to go tothat grad program and do a little bit
more game dev focused stuff. Andyeah, the benefit was collaboration and I

(25:48):
think working with other people and workingon like group projects and kind of giving
like a mini studio industry experience.But yeah, I'm a big proponent of
doing what makes sense for you.And you do not have to go to
an expensive art school. You cantake classes online, you have to you
can self teach, and ultimately Iended up doing a lot of self teaching

(26:12):
through YouTube videos. And I knowpeople who went to art schools who also
still had to self teach and doa lot of self learning. And so
I think it's whatever makes sense foryou, and like what you want to
pursue, what makes sense, becauseultimately it doesn't really matter. Like I
said, I have a master's degree, nobody cares. That's never once to

(26:34):
come up. Yeah, no one'sever checked my degree or anything. So
and like, no, go ahead, I was gonna say, yeah,
And I've worked with people who neverwent to college or went to NOMEN either,
like they straight up got their firstjob out of high school. And
so it's really like, whatever worksfor you. That's always interesting to me

(26:57):
because I've gotta and it gets moreinteresting to me as time goes on,
not just because of what I doright, UM, but because I have
a now fourteen almost fifteen year oldUM who UM is and I'm biased,
but it's a pretty good, prettydamn good artist. UM. And she

(27:22):
wants to and she wants to doart for games. UM. And so
I'm always like, and I knowshe would prefer not to go to college.
I know she would. Um,she would do it if she had
to to to do this, butshe would prefer not to. So I'm
always like think, I'm always thinking, you know, and I'm like,
you know, I'm hoping that UM, she can do what she wants to

(27:47):
do in the least painful way possible. UM, because she's she's definitely one
of those folks who is completely wellwilling to teach herself. UM, she's
completely well to teach herself. AndUM, because I homeschool and I know
that art has always been one ofher, like her biggest interests. UM.

(28:10):
She's had. She's also had alot of one on one art classes
because that is you know, that'sjust kind of where her interest lies.
And so I figure, you know, if if she's got to do the
other stuff, right, if she'sgot to do the other stuff, if
she's got to do math and she'sgot to do English, and she's well,

(28:33):
she loves doing history, and sheloves doing like history and social studies,
anything political she also absolutely loves um. So she's willing to do that
with no problem. But other stuff, she's just kind of like, I'll
do it if I have to,but I really want to do this other
thing. But she's done a lotof like teaching herself how to do things
kind of along the way, especiallylike the last the last couple of years,

(28:57):
like during the pandemic, because youknow, it's been more difficult to
find folks. Um it's been moredifficult to find folks who are willing to
do kind of one on one classesvirtually as well. UM So, yeah,
So I'm always super interested in myears. Always perk up when when

(29:18):
folks start having those conversations. AndI got lots of friends who work in
industry, so I'm always talking tothem too, Especially as she starts to
get older, I'm like, yeah, now, we're getting to the grown
up ears and she's gonna have tostart making moves one way or the other.
So, um, but Jordan,now you have to answer your own
question. Oh really, I wasprepared for this. Um, you're you're

(29:44):
you're just paying me back from lastweek, when I'm totally paying you back
from last week. Our last episodewas the co host host the host,
so we were asking saying all thesequestions. UM, yeah, No,
my mind was pretty similar. Wentto university was in the Midwest, so
there wasn't a ton of dedicated artprograms. Regardless, I kind of went

(30:07):
into university knowing I wanted to focuson games, which was a big shock
to a lot of people in myfamily and friends because everyone thought I was
going to go in for music andI was like, no, going in
for games, and I were justlike what, So I went for games.
We had like a quote unquote dedicatedgame development track course. It was

(30:30):
what it was. There was alot of good courses, a lot of
courses that probably could have spent mytime just watching YouTube doing some self teaching,
and even throughout both the courses thatI found helpful or the courses that
I struggled with, there was alwaysgoing to be some self teaching, but

(30:51):
yeah, I went to university,did my undergrad got my masters. My
masters was fun and that I lovethe topic, but the topic re kind
of shifted a little bit from developmentof games, like literally, how do
you work in engine? How doyou make this in Maya? To analysis

(31:12):
of ethics and values And obviously Sandwichtook a lot of your classes, but
yeah, that's kind of what Ifocused on. And then after I graduated
got I think I've always worked atstartups since I've graduated, which was the
number one thing I said I wasnot going to do, and I think

(31:34):
I've pretty much just worked at startups. One was a mobile game startup for
in Stadium Entertainment, and then someonethat I had worked with at my college
job got a job at PlayStation recommendedme, so I went there for two
years. That's when I moved outto San Diego. And then also we've

(31:57):
just been following each other from jobto job, so then he came to
that my moment, recommended me,so I came to that moment. So
yeah, a lot of my connectionsI made were through industry or a lot
of the industry connections I made werethrough university and personally, like, while
I was very self motivated and hadto do a lot of self teaching,

(32:17):
anyway, I really struggled with structuresometimes and school always provided that structure.
So even though I wanted to doa lot of stuff, sometimes I would
get lost in the sauce, yousay, because there's so much to learn.
Yeah, so it really helped kindof put guardrails on and even if

(32:38):
I regretted taking a certain class andat least helped me push me in the
right direction of like, Okay,I don't want to do that. So
yeah, that's my story. I'dsay that's what helped me too at school,
like finding that small group of friendswho are really ambitious and work hard.
Because after we graduated, one ofmy friends started in turning another room

(33:02):
and he recommended me. He wasa programmer, but he was recommending me
as an artist to jump on ateam at that time. But I think
if it wasn't for school and findingthat small group, like not working,
I don't know if I would havegotten in the industry as probably as soon
as I did right out of school. M Nice, All right, George,

(33:25):
you want to do your next questionor you want to you want to
go back and forth, It's upto you. I can go back and
forth. But there is like onefollow up question to the how did you
break in? Would you find mostbeneficial? And that is, if you
were to go back and tie yourselfto do something differently, what would it
be? Oh, man, Igotta think about what you would tell eighteen

(33:53):
year old christ That is tough.I'm a big proponent of like things happen
for a reason, that's not solame. I'm gonna say that too.
I feel like every mistake I've madehas led me to hear and exactly.

(34:14):
But if I if I went backin a time machine, I'd probably be
like, hey, look at thesetwo words environment art, and then just
go down that wormhole a little sooner. Yeah, so yeah. Similarly,
we're for me. If I foundenvironment art sooner, maybe I would have
been in industry sooner. At thesame time, I wouldn't have found my

(34:37):
way to environment art without doing thethings that I have I did, so
I Yeah, for me. Iguess it sounds really lame, or maybe
sounds really I shouldn't say lame,but maybe sounds like a bad thing to
say. But I kind of ifI could go back in time, I
would want to be more selfish ofa person. I think I cared a

(34:58):
lot about what other people thought whenI was younger, too much so,
and I think that sometimes affected choicesthat I made. So I think that
would be general life advice for myself. But I don't regret any decisions for
the same reason as Chris said,I think I found my way because of
the choices I made. So yeah, every everyone mistaken it leads to a

(35:22):
lesson. So um yeah, Ithink, yeah, I would. I
would send myself a letter that justsays, in marmont art on it the
things you never thought about. Yeah, exactly what. That makes perfect sense.
Um, Jordan. I will leaveit up to you whether or not

(35:43):
you answer that, because I don'twant to put you on the spot again.
I feel bad. Oh it's sogood. I thought it was funny.
Um, but I'm also still recoveringfrom my cultes. I was like,
oh, shoot, I gotta clearmy throat. Not ready, Um,
but yeah, no, I sortof similar boat Mine is like very
specific to where it's not a greatanswer because my answer is sort of impossible,

(36:09):
I guess, and the fact thatwhen I was going through college.
I had a couple of professors thatwere I understand the intent behind it.
They were trying to explain getting intothe industry is very difficult regardless. Also,
our school doesn't focus on video games, but the way it was framed

(36:31):
was very you're not going to makeit. Stop doing art, stop doing
environment art. And then especially beingone of the few women in my classes
and hearing that in front of everyone, like it's very embarrassing. And then
I had other professors that were like, Jordan, this is what you're good
at, this is what you needto improve at. Regardless of those things.

(36:53):
You just need to take a deepbreath. And I get that that's
hard to do, but you arerunning yourself ragged and things will work out.
Like I know that you can't justrely on unknowns and you do have
to work for what you want.But there are many months that I worked
myself to just way too sick,way too stressed out. And yeah,

(37:17):
I learned some stuff from that,but honestly, had I just taken a
step back and just enjoyed the timethat I had there, because there was
a lot of things that were fun, I think I'd end up in a
very similar situation to where I amnow, So i'd be a lot less

(37:37):
stressed on the way there is,Yeah, a lot less also just Jordan
calmed down depressed? Agree with that, Like, I get that I did
the exact same thing. I think, so definitely maybe calmed out a little
would be my advice too. It'sso hard because you're so in the moment
and when you are brought up constantlythinking, oh, you're you're about to

(38:00):
go to high school, figure outwhat classes wanted to take. Oh,
you're about to approach college, youhave to go to college. Do college?
Um, you got to figure outyour life at thirteen, because that's
when you start planning, that's whenyou start. Like it was so looking
back, I'm like, why whydo we do this? No? No,
um yeah, and yeah I foundwhat I loved because I love what

(38:23):
I love and then I pursued that. And I don't think having a few
missed grades, a few lower gradesand other classes that weren't really pertinent too
anyway, Like I would have beenfine. I would have been fine.
Yeah, I think sorry, no, no, go ahead, no go

(38:44):
ahead, Okay, let's say Ithink also, at least in my experience,
and I'm I know this is avery common experience for a lot of
folks. But my parents were alsovery like, oh, you want to
do art, that's you should notdo that. So that was also a
struggle when I was in high schoolearly college as well. Was I knew

(39:05):
I wanted to do art, butthen also the conflict of maybe I should
do something that would appease my parentsin some way, something that you know,
is a little bit more quote unquoterealistic. But ultimately it worked out
and yeah, and I'm still I'msorry, go ahead, Chris, I'll
save my tools. I was gonnasay. I was like, I remember

(39:28):
my counselors in high school saying themwas like through my life away because I
was going to work on video games, and they just didn't know that there's
a whole industry that is behind allof that. Mhmm. I think it's
interesting still, um because Joyd broughtit up the ways that women moved through

(39:53):
not only the industry, but throughgame development education where I um, and
being someone who's on the other sideof the table like in academia, and
then being someone who does consulting inindustry and see how and seeing how you

(40:15):
know, women struggle in college,right because there if you're a woman,
and you're a woman in one ofthese programs, you're often one of the
only the only women, you're offone of the only women. So you're
having to deal with all kinds ofmisogyny from classmates, misogyny from um from

(40:36):
professors, and kind of that underlyingcone, that underlying tone of you're not
gonna make it, um and andhaving uh having that also that kind of
underlying tone be um it's because you'rea woman, um or because you're a
marginalized person. So it's not justwomen, but just like watching marginalized folks

(40:57):
move through these spaces, um isI've been disconcerting because I've been doing this
for twenty years and it's still reallyhard to watch, right, it's still
really hard to watch. And then, like like I said, working,
uh, working as a consultant andbeing called in um TO to consult as

(41:21):
a person who is a woman ofcolor, who is queer, who has
you know, like I said,twenty years experience in game studies, and
um has been teaching at the universityfor twenty years and playing video games for
more than forty At this point,um To see the absence of UM,

(41:43):
women and poc in these spaces isstill just hard hitting, right. And
and then like it's it's hard toum think about what you tell folks who
want to go into these who wantto go into industry, right, who
are women? Right, It's like, Okay, I know you want to

(42:06):
do this, um and I andI've never been one. I've never been
a person to say you're not gonnamake it, don't do this. Um.
You know it's but but being youknow, also being realistic about it
and saying you know you're gonna beone of all, You're gonna be one
of very few in that space.UM. And that's okay, right,
if you want to if you wantto do this, let's make your voice

(42:28):
heard, right UM. And anddon't let folks discourage you, because folks
are always going to try to discourageyou. UM. I've had that.
I've had that discussion with a lotof folks, UM coming through to Graham
studies who are like, I thinkI'm just gonna quit because you know,
they told me this wasn't gonna happen. This wasn't you know, this was
never gonna happen. I was nevergonna I was never gonna be able to

(42:50):
be a games writer. I wasnever gonna be able to be a developer.
I was never gonna be able todo this. Um, And you
know to to constantly, you know, be like I call bullshit. You
know I could, And that's andand that's always hard, right, um,
because that that I call bullshit waswhat I needed to hear thirty years

(43:15):
ago and didn't right because we've hadthis conversation before on the podcast. And
and like the weird, the weirdmoment when my when my daughter asked me,
Um, when she was younger,she was like, you know so
much about games, you love gamesso much, why did you never become
a game developer? And the honestto god question was, the honest to

(43:39):
god answer was I never knew Icould. So you know, I mean
I knew it existed, and Iknew people did it, but as a
black woman, that didn't seem tobe in the realm of possibility for me.
So you know that that for mehas been the reason that I always

(43:59):
say I call bullshit. Um.You know, when people are when people
are facing these kinds of things,and it's it's all too often that folks
face face these, Um, youcan't do that moments. Um, not
only because they're women, are notonly because they're minorities, but because it's
video games and people still think videogames are the work of the realm of

(44:22):
children, um and not serious work. Right. Um yeah, yeah,
I completely feel that, and like, like from my perspective as like a
brown guy in the industry, likelike I'm still like a guy in this

(44:42):
industry, right, but like goingin like, well, so, so
here's a little background of like whatI was into in high school, right
was I was like super into punkmusic. And when I'd go to punk
shows, it just be like likewhite dominated, white dominary space. And
there's a lot of like POC bandsfrom Chicago that started up when I was

(45:06):
growing up, and they're they werejust like no few like punk could be
for brown people too, And that'sthat was kind of the mentality I went
into like pursuing my career in incollege because up until like I was,
you know, applying for for youknow, schools, like everyone would just

(45:30):
tell me like, oh, likeyou're just gonna throw your life away,
like that's not a career, like, but my mentality was like no,
I could do it. Like youknow, like my parents don't have the
resources to figure this out for me, Like I'm I'm figuring it out myself.
Like my parents are like first generationimmigrants, like they don't have the
answers for me. And I thinkthat's why I took a long time in

(45:51):
school, right, because it's justlike trial and error. You're like you're
figuring this out yourself. Like mymom doesn't like speak English, like she
doesn't know how to like help mewith those so finding those resources. But
then when I got to school,it was it wasn't it was the same
thing. It was white like maledominator space. And I think that's what

(46:12):
kept me pushing in school, right. It was like that that punk mentality
that I came in with from highschool. Like yeah, I remember being
like talk talked down on, Likeyou know, there's there's a lot of
privilege, like students going to thoseschools who are having everything paid for them,
so they have all this time tolike work on their projects and do

(46:34):
everything. But I have I haveto like work and have retail jobs.
I had to go to you andand it was all kind of like yeah,
that mentality was like no, likeI deserve us like a spot in
this space, like I'm gonna doit like regardless off like all these challenges
and people are kind of pushing upagainst me, like because I want to
break in and do my part andleave it like in a better place than

(47:00):
the where I found it one hundredpercent, I mean. And that's and
that's I think one of the thingsthat that and that goes back to the
question that Jordan asked originally about youknow, how do you how do you
learn to do this? Are youself taught? Do you have mentors?
Do you um? Do you goto university? But one of the things

(47:22):
that I think that is super importantis that kind of mentorship aspect, right,
um, is that mentorship aspect islike seeing someone who has done something
into the space that you want todo, so that you know that it
is possible as a black person,as a brown person, as queer person,

(47:44):
as a woman, as you know, as as any of these things,
right, especially when you are notthe you are not the dominant in
that space. Um. And Ithink that that's I think that's super important,
right to be able to see toto be able to see folks doing
what you want to do in someway shape or form right, And I

(48:06):
think that that for me. Ithink that for me, that's been one
of the things that kind of keepsme going in a space where I mean
academically, you know, academically,because I'm not I'm not in I'm not
on the tech side. I'm notin a STEM department. I'm not in

(48:30):
a stem department. I'm in aliberal arts department. I'm in the soft
sciences, not the hard sciences.But that's been one of the reasons it's
been important for me to be visiblein that space, right, um,
And it's it's one of the reasonsit's been important for me to be visible
in my mind in industry spaces.Has been important for me to be visible

(48:52):
in gaming spaces so that folks whowere like young me, right can see
that that other folks are of thatother folks are there. So I think
that, like when we start thinkingabout that question and going back to that
question, I think that even thatmentorship is important no matter which route you

(49:13):
take. And I think, Idon't know, I want I want to
I want to see like huge mentornetworks of of marginalized folks in terms of
gender, in terms of race,in terms of sexual identity period. Just
making making folks aware that they canexist in these spaces even when the world

(49:36):
tries to tell you you can't.I agree, I think, yeah,
I agree. And it's nice tohave those people to also advocate and talk
about like studios or job opportunities toreally give insight. I've had experience with
that as well. I've gotten joboffers from studios where I've not been sure

(49:57):
if they're great spaces for women andfor marginalized folks. And knowing other women
and other marginalized folks at those spaceseven within the industry to ask about their
genuine experience at that studio has beena lot and has actually, like I've
declined job offers because of that,because of the things that they've said and

(50:19):
knowing and having that I think isyeah, is great, and I think
yeah, it would be helpful forpeople coming into the industry as well,
for sure. And you said somethingthat was key their genuine experiences, because
we all know that when some whenwhen somebody is wooing you, they bring
out the folks that are going tosay what they what you want to hear

(50:43):
and not necessarily was actually going onright, Yeah, for sure, yeah,
yeah, that's unfortunate. Reality isthat I I experienced like my first
bit of what I would call youwhen sex like not saying that other things
aren't genuine, but when I joinedthe games industry, I've definitely had experiences

(51:07):
where I'm like, oh, thatwas just that was sexist, that was
purely because I'm a woman. Huh. It's it's rough, and even when
people advocate for you, sometimes it'snot enough and that's very unfortunate. But
yep, I think it's just we'relike a marginalized group. Is easy to

(51:31):
take advantage of that kind of group. Like I've come across it too before,
where I was just like the onlyperson of color in this in this
studio or in my in my group, and naturally I'm just like working hard,
right, Like sometimes I feel likeI pick up traits from my parents,

(51:52):
like because you know, like they'relike they're immigrants and they had to
work super hard, and that waslike the mentality I went into like in
the industry that I had to bethe same do twelve hours, and those
type of folks just get easily takenadvantage of. And I think that's why,

(52:15):
naturally we just have to be leadersand mentors and a lighthouse for other
the next you know, group ofmarginalized people, because regardless of whether or
not we want it, we're gonnaface those struggles and we have to look
out for each other. M I'veyeah, I definitely see that being the

(52:39):
case sometimes, and it's not great. It's very upsetting. Yeah. Yeah,
My my mom's from Vietnam as well, so I also get a similar
sentiment. And I've worked with peoplewho have been here on PISA for work
stuff and realized that they're significantly andare paid comparatively, and part I I

(53:05):
think it's because certain studios know thatthey can take advantage of that because they
don't have as much weight to tokind of bargain because they have the visa,
and that I find particularly despicable.But yeah, I totally derailed this
conversation, and I apologize, butI mean it was just like there's that

(53:31):
there's that constant undertone when we're startingto think about like like how our individual
identities intersect with kind of the waysthat we learn things, the way that
we move through spaces, the waysthat we like do our jobs right.
And I think that it's important too. It's important to think about, to

(53:53):
analyze, to interrogate those things aswell. Um, but I'm gonna stop
because I got real heavy. Yeah, it is heavy. And I mean
I was talking to our furniture andwho we work with, who's also a
person of color, and we werejust both like realizing, like, yeah,

(54:15):
like our parents worked really hard becausethey came from a whole other country
and they had to put in thosehours. We saw them do that as
we were growing up, and that'show we think we have to work when
we're in these spaces. But thenI've I've worked with other people, you
know, like white privilege people whoare in the same space, who don't
work as hard and they move upthe ladder a lot faster. Yeah,

(54:38):
you know, it's struggle. Myeah. Um yeah, So I mean,
no, I I get it.You know, my my mom was
my mom was the first generation.My mom was the first generation college student,
and I was I was second generation. But you know, being a

(54:58):
being a woman, Um, she'syou know, she's a black, she's
a black woman who you know,was was born in the first half of
the twentieth century, right and stillhad had a lot to kind of navigate
in terms of in terms of comingof age, coming of age in the

(55:19):
nineteen fifties and working through the nineteensixties. In nineteen seventies, especially in
the city of Detroit, which waskind of a hotbed forum for kind of
racial incidents and for like civil rightsstruggles. It kind of set a tone
for me that would have been verydifferent had she not been the person she

(55:43):
was. Right, So, yeah, no, I totally get it.
And I think that that is kindof what kind of constantly comes back up
for me when I start thinking aboutthe ways that we can make change in
the industry so that it is aspace that is more palatable for marginal folks

(56:04):
of marginalized identities of all sorts.But all right, I'm gonna I'm gonna
stop. We gonna lighting it upagain. I'm gonna stop again. And
I and I have a question UM. And this question came out of the
fact that UM, I environmental storytelling, UM is just like a sweet spot
for me, right, And itprobably comes up with comes from the fact

(56:28):
that UM Tears of the Kingdom comesout next month, and when I start
thinking about like environmental storytelling and thinkingabout UM, ledger Zell, The Breath
of the Wild y'all could trash talketif you want to please feel free?
Um? But um And specifically,when I think about environmental storytelling, I
think about all kinds of stuff,not only not only art, but not

(56:50):
not only visual art, but alsoauditory art, and thinking about music and
the way music becomes a part ofthe storytelling process. But all that,
Right, So we hear the phraseof environmental storytelling a lot. So how
do you see your work? Andwe've already kind of kind of talked about
sending eighteen year old sales just twowords environmental art, Right, how do

(57:13):
you see your work contributing to thestory of the games that you work on?
And how do you see it contributingand not I won't say necessarily a
larger way to world building, butto world building as well. Yeah,
I think simple thing is like themost simplest way to explain it is that

(57:36):
whenever you're making an environment, justthink about, like why is this like
this? How did this form likethis? Right? If if there's rocks,
why did they scatter this way?Did they break from a cliff?
Is their erosion here because there usedto be a river that flowed here a
long time ago? That's now driedup. If these rocks are a certain

(57:57):
way, like it's like arrange ina way that seeds catch and that's why
there's plants that grow here. Andthe light touches this part, and that's
why also plants grow here. Ithink environmental storytelling can just be thought of
is just simply like the reasoning ofwhy you build the things that you do,
like thinking of the context in theworld that it exists in. It

(58:20):
doesn't have to necessarily be overt storytellinglike a literal message or literal footsteps,
Like you can tell a story withoutlike a human or a person interacting with
that space and thinking of crafting yourspaces like that, I think give it
so much more believability and gives ita lot more like I don't know,
interest personality. So yeah, Ithink it's just always think about why.

(58:46):
My simple explanation. My favorite thingthat goes to you when I'm working on
the space is like thinking who,what, where, and why? Like
who lives here? Like what istheir purpose there? And like when did
they move there right, like athousand years ago or did they move into
on your apartment five years ago?Right? And just that that kind of

(59:09):
like story building in your in yourmind when you're craft in that space,
like like why is this dust buildingup here? Like do they ever not
fix their window? Like is thatwhy the sand is blown into this building?
Or why it's so cold in hereand there's snow in here? Like
those kinds of things I like tothink about, like when I'm thinking about

(59:30):
like crafting materials and texturing the spacesthat Leah models. Yeah, it's it's
interesting to see your your work,um uh, to see your work kind
of in conjunction with one another,because I can definitely see how those things

(59:50):
build upon a compliment one another orcould or would right. Um. And
I know that you know, we'renot allowed to know what projects you're all
working on, but I am sodamn it excited to see what it is,
um when we actually see it,because I have to say, I,
um, well, just like lookingat your art, your art station,

(01:00:13):
your our station size, I waskind of blown away by the work
that y'all have done in the past. So I think I'm excited. Yeah,
thanks so much. Yeah, I'msuper excited too. I can't wait.
Yeah, I'm also excited. I'mexcited to work with a material team

(01:00:34):
like Chris TiAl artist. So Ithink that's pretty cool and it sounds like
y'all got a lot of POC workingthere. That's the move must be doing
something right. I'm I'm really proudof that. I'm I was like maybe
the fortieth something employee when we started, and our lead Ben was a really

(01:00:55):
big advocate of like really diversifying theteam. And that's one of the main
reasons why I was like, Okay, let's I'll jump I'll jump along for
it, because it really is upto us to really like craft like the
space that we want to like beinclusive. There's people who don't align with

(01:01:17):
those things. It's never going tobe that way. Yes, it has
to start top down, and ifyou don't have leads that advocates, it's
not going to work out. AndI agree with Chris as well. One
thing that sold me when I interviewedwas a question Ben had asked me as

(01:01:38):
well, which was basically asking meabout experiences with UM discrimination and how I
handled it and how people on ourteam handled it. And he was very
sincere and genuinely cared about that andthat that was like a green flag for

(01:01:58):
me. So yeah, yea onething that's been super nice about this studio
is obviously greeting a new studio bothlike a physical space and building a team
from the ground up has a lotof challenges. It's not an easy thing
to do. But one really beneficialthing and nice thing is something we've been

(01:02:22):
talking about here, is you getthe chance to contribute and build the culture
that you want to work towards,and build the team and the atmosphere that
you want to create, the practicesthat you want to ensure. And some
of my experiences at the previous places, it's like, no matter how much
you voice things, no matter howmuch evidence you have, concrete evidence of

(01:02:46):
things happening, it's not always listenedto. Change does not always happen.
And so having the chance here tohave to build the culture the studio that
you want. But also again abig part is the people. Having people
that are willing to listen put inthe work has been huge. H I

(01:03:12):
This is maybe a little sad,but I had a meeting early on when
I started at that snow Moon thatwas the first meeting I've ever had ever
in industry where fifty percent of theparticipants were women, and I noticed that
it's like, dang, that hasnever happened before. Yep, that's happening.

(01:03:32):
That's gonna happen. It's not gonnastop, and that's a good thing.
Yeah, we're starting that change andthen the next generation is gonna do
it even better. M But yeah, building upon rewarding experiences and some more
of your specific experiences in industry,you can anonymize the project if you like.

(01:03:59):
The The most thing that I'm interestedin is the why. But what
has been the most fun or rewardingproject that you have worked on? And
why? I'm gonna say, I'mgonna say our project just because it's it's
like from the very beginning, it'sfrom my past experiences. It's been hopping

(01:04:26):
the studios who have been around twentyyear, thirty years, so there's kind
of a structure they're already built foryou in terms of you know, the
pipeline and all that um. Buthe was just from scratch and where we
got to within a year with ourreally like ambitious and talented, talented team,

(01:04:47):
Yeah, I'd say that's that's I'mmost proud of right now, just
how far we've come in such alittle time. Nice, I'm gonna cheat
I'm gonna say our current team andproject as well, for like the exact
same reasons Chris said, where Ifeel like we're really doing a lot of
cool stuff that I wish I couldgo more in detail of U and I'm

(01:05:11):
excited to see what the team buildsand where the project goes. And I
will give a little shout out tomy previous team before coming here, which
was my when I was on ApexReligions, because I will say that the
environment team that I worked there workedwith there were some awesome people as well,
and I also really appreciated my timeon that project and the people that

(01:05:33):
I worked with, and I wasI was sad when it was time to
go, but things happen. Soalso great people on that project too,
and also at TNM. So yeah, and that's the environments on Apex in
Apex are are beautiful. That's whatI been one of the one of the

(01:05:58):
things that I've always admired about thatgame, uh, because I'm I'm it's
weird, because I love just kindof looking at um. That's one of
the reasons I love I love openworld games, even though Apex is not
an open world game, but oneof the reasons I love open world games
is because of the Environment's just likewalking around and seeing things and noticing little

(01:06:20):
things like a crack in the rockthat water's coming through, right, and
knowing that like that, that crackhas happened because of like years of pressure
in that knowing that there's something behindthere, and knowing that you know all
of these little things and that somebodywas thoughtful enough to think about these things.
Um. And that's one of thethings that I've always loved about apex

(01:06:43):
Um, even though again it isa squad a squad based competitive game that
I stuck at um because they don'twant you to stand STI to be fair,
I also stuck at apex But yeah, I yeah, that we have
a lot of technical limitations on thatgame, and I do think that that

(01:07:05):
team really makes some really good lookingstuff with what we have to work with.
For sure, there's there's a lotof tech struggles on that project and
some amazing folks working on that.But yeah, I definitely, yeah,
that team is good. I likethat team. Oh let's see, so

(01:07:29):
can I'm gonna ask a question thatthat kind of piggybacks off that if that's
okay. Jordan I think this ismy question because I'm ready, I'm reading.
I'm like, this sounds like myquestion, and this will kind of
feed into this question itself. Right, Um, do you still play games
that you've worked on in the past, and do you notice you're working in
those games? I know that soundslike a weird question, but if I'm

(01:07:53):
not paying attention and I read something, here's something that I wrote in the
past, I'm like, Wow,that's smart, interesting, ridiculous. Who
said that? Um It's like,once I'm done, my brain just totally
moves on to the next thing,and I and people think that that's the
most ridiculous thing that they've ever heard. When people will be like, I'm
like, wow, that's interesting.Who wrote that? And they're like,

(01:08:13):
um, you did? And I'mlike, oh okay, But um,
so do you back to that question, do you still play stuff and do
you notice your work? I wouldpercent of what you're saying with the writing
stuff that once I work, onceI'm done worry on something, it's like
dead to me. I completely forgetthat I worked on it ever. And

(01:08:34):
I feel so bad because Apex,I think, is a great example because
we would work on a map overa year before it's publicly released, and
by the time it comes out,we're already like deep into something else,
completely new and different. And soevery new season when it comes out,
I just completely blank everything that I'vedone and I forget. I forget like

(01:08:58):
what legends we're doing, what weapons, what map, because we're already like
focused on the next thing. AndI sometimes feel really bad playing with like
friends who are excited about the newseason and I just don't remember anything about
it. But yeah, it's kindof like a traumatic experience you block off
from your it's just gone after itsship, like, thank god, it's

(01:09:25):
over. Yeah, but I doso I play pub G. I worked
on it for a few months,and yeah, I still play that pretty
often. And I do play themap that I worked on, and yeah,
sometimes I do run across something thatI touched and I'm like, oh
god, I could have done thatbetter. And it hasn't changed in years.

(01:09:48):
Every time I look at it,it's just like a reminder of where
I was five years ago. Butyou were gonna say, oh wow,
I did that look how great thatlooks? I think ours are just really
self critical about about everything we do. But yeah, it's hard not to

(01:10:08):
turn that off when when you're walkingby the whole big thing you made.
M Yeah, I only fixate onthe thing. I'm like, oh man,
that looks real bad. Yeah,oh no, oh good, it's
it's It's good to know because mydaughter is the same way, because she
doesn't want to show me things alot of times and she's like, no,

(01:10:30):
I can't show you that. Thehands look weird. And I look
at him like, that's perfect.What are you talking about how She's like,
no, no, it's it's ait's horrible. Uh No, one's
harsher than an artist on their ownwork. Absolutely. I still even struggle
with that. I was just talkingtoday. I was just screaming at myself
when I was submitting something today thatare looked awful. And I'm like eight

(01:10:53):
years into my career and I stillfeel that, like as if I was
like my first month on like inthe industry, and by and biased opinion
is that it's become really good.Chris though, yeah, all right,
joined you guya what you got yournext question? Yeah, so, well,

(01:11:16):
we talked a little bit about youraspects, like working in industry.
Things that have been good, thingsthat have been moving on things that haven't
been so great. But what aspectabout working in the industry do you wish
that more people knew about or understood? And there's a lot I think for

(01:11:41):
me, it's a combo of Like, one thing is that I think I
wish people knew that devs do genuinelycare. Coming from Apex, which is
like a competitive it's a multiplayer,it's a shooter, there's a lot of
very impassioned, very vocal fans andplayers of the game, and the people

(01:12:05):
who work on the game do genuinelycare and genuinely try to make the best
game that they can, and thatdecisions that they make are made with good
intentions in mind. And so II do wish that there's a little bit
more I guess benefit of the doubt, maybe a little bit that that devs

(01:12:30):
do care, Like devs are gamersand like they play games as well,
and so they do have usually thebest intentions in mind, even if sometimes
it doesn't seem like it, orsometimes they maybe seems a little bit misguided.
Oftentimes people are trying to do theirbest. And yeah, and then

(01:12:53):
the other thing is that maybe justa general more understanding of how games are
made games are really common complicated,and a lot of people work on them
and do There's there's so many,so many things that go into making a
game, and I think there's lessunderstanding of how games are made than maybe

(01:13:13):
other industries. And I think thathaving just a better understanding of all the
jobs all the people who make thegames that you love would be would be
nice. I think, Nah,Leah, you know, you just open
up your laptop and create a completelydifference than that fits exactly what everybody wants

(01:13:36):
overnight. Yeah, it's definitely way. We're complicated, and I've definitely seen
a lot of sentiment that it's exactlywhat you said, and no, it's
I swear it's way more complicated.I promise people care, and I promise
that they're working on it. It'sjust going to take a little bit of
time. And the funny thing isis that that whenever I whenever people like

(01:14:01):
start like really railing on something,especially something that I'm working that I'm working
on, I'm like, look,understand this. I have been doing this
for almost thirty years now. Iwould not dedicate my life's work to something
I hated that makes no sense.Like you, there's like the like,

(01:14:24):
No, the like folks working atthis you know from you know, thinking
about race, or thinking about gender, thinking about like sexual orientation or sexual
identity, they just hate video games. No, no, I'm sorry.
That is not the way that works. Also, when we talk about like
updates, whether it's an update toa game that's already come out or you're

(01:14:46):
building towards an update for a release, it's okay to be excited about something,
it's okay to be passionate about something. But developers have We are people.
We have our own lives, wehave our own interests, we have
our own health to think about ifsomething gets delayed. There are so many
games out there. Play another gamein the meantime. Don't send awful threats,

(01:15:12):
don't send mean things. I guaranteeyou a lot of the developers also
want the game to come out.Yes, people, Yeah, I promise
the people who are making the gamescare about what they're doing. But they
are human beings that deserve to havetheir weekends and time with their family too.

(01:15:32):
Yeah. I've yeah, I've knownfolks who've gotten some pretty awful,
awful, awful messages and it's neverokay. Yeah, I think I think
something People should know is is thatthere's a million and one things that are
broken, and we put all ourefforts to making it less broken. Any

(01:15:57):
any game that ships, I thinkis there's always gonna be bug, and
we just had to focus on anotherbug that's more critical tonight, like have
that in the final product. Soyeah, but also what everyone everyone else?
I was like, Yeah, we'rehuman beings, Like I can go
back on the computer at like oneam and fix the whole thing, like
there's a whole process. But I'veseen that similar thing too. Have been

(01:16:23):
at past jobs where they make thatthreats at the studio and we had to
evacuate, or someone found someone's phonenumber on their LinkedIn or resume and they
called the developer and they were yellingabout getting something fixed. Like yeah,
we're just like regular human beings likeeveryone else. Yeah, I've yeah,

(01:16:45):
I've also seen some extreme stuff similarto that too, and it's like it's
it's not cool, please please don'tdo that. It's pretty funny though in
many ways, because like I said, I've been playing video games for more
than forty years now. I've gotto do math in my head for more

(01:17:06):
than forty years now, And becauseI played my first I always I call
it video games, but it wasn'treally big games. It was a digital
game, right, they were electronicgames. I played my first electronic game
in nineteen seventy seven. So it'slike and people are like, oh,
it's just because developers are trashed nowthat all these games are coming out broken,

(01:17:29):
and I'm like, let me tellyou something. It's somebody who's been
playing video games since since, fora very long time, since before,
way before you were born. Usuallyin the case of most of these folks,
these games have been games have comeout, games have released with bugs
forever. Right. It's it's impossibleto release anything perfect. Nothing can be

(01:17:50):
perfect, right, And it's justkind of realism. It's just like,
we just weren't entitled assholes and wedidn't samt people and threatened people's lives because
the game had a bug. Iwas like, think about it. At
almost crashed the entire video game industrybecause it was so broken. But it's

(01:18:15):
just it's just reality. And it'sit's interesting right that that um that there's
a there's a sense of entitlement umthat makes people think it's okay to you
know, issue death threats, bombthreats, swattings, like all of these

(01:18:36):
different things, um for different reasons. So yeah, m hm, okay,
go ahead. Oh I was gonnasay, yeah, games are just
a really complicated piece of technology.My partner is an engineer, and honestly,
sometimes things that seem like such aneasy fix actually just really aren't.

(01:19:01):
And it's so hard to explain that. But yeah, yeah, because you
push one update and you didn't realize, oh, that affected QA engineering design.
I remember when I first started workingat that snowment, I pushed an
update. It was one of myfirst updates. I broke the entire build

(01:19:24):
because I added one collision box toan asset and it costs four days of
time. I had no idea itwas even broken. Like, I didn't
even know this conversation was going onbecause things are so complicated. I didn't
come until the Friday morning meeting whenthey're like, yeah, so the game
has been broken for an entire week. I was just like, I'm just

(01:19:45):
gonna exit. That's like classic gamedev move. It's like you have to
break the build at least once,and you have to like mark way too
much too many things for delete andperforce. That's just like you have to
do one or the other for sure, And it was so bad too because
there's three weeks before a major milestoneand deadline. I was just like,

(01:20:11):
oh my gosh, yeah, I'vedone it. I've broken it. It
is. It does send you intopanic mode, but you have to do
it just to get get over thatfear. Yeah, everybody, everybody does
that, I think at least once. I remember breaking up play test and

(01:20:33):
for apex as well, and wehad like random generated like dev names based
off of your initials, so minewas lung Ape and I just refer all
right, like build Engineer being like, whuiz lung ape. But they're literally
breaking off the entire play test.You need to leave. And then everybody
was just adding it's like that's Lea, that's Lea. That's like twenty people.

(01:20:56):
I was like, all right,I guess I'm just gonna I'm just
gonna go oh no. And thenhappens multiple times too, So like what
happened to me was just a simpleupdate ended up being a simple fix.
Just figuring out what this issue waswas a huge thing. But I remember
there was another asset that I hadcompletely broken, not because my submission was
bad in terms of the fix.But I had submitted it in so many

(01:21:19):
different ways, on so many differentlevels. I actually don't know if you
remember this, Chris, but youwere on the call with me and our
tech artists and I like one hundredpercent. We had to delete the asset
from all the levels and re importit and I was just crying on the
call, like I'm so sorry.Yeah, oh my gosh. Fun times.

(01:21:41):
So there's the simplest things, simplestthings that aren't simple, all right,
Um, I don't know, Jordan, was that did you ask the
last question? Did I ask thelast question? I asked the last question.
It was about what do you wishmore people knew? Games are hard,
games developers are Yeah, those aregood things to Those are good things

(01:22:03):
to know. Those are good thingsto know. Um, I don't know.
So Jordan's UM, so that wedon't so that we don't keep alive
and Chris too long? Um,how about we pick one good last question?
Why don't you see last question?Um? And even if you have
to make up a really hard one, No, I'm just kidding. And

(01:22:23):
then um, and then I getto our can I can I ask the
last question? Since I got askedthe last question last weekend. Yeah,
yeah, another pressures on. Ihave to ask a good question. Um,
they're all good questions. We've hadan amazing conversation and I really appreciate
y'all. Yeah, thank you,thank you so much. Um, Okay,

(01:22:47):
I'll do one's a little bit moreof a serious, tech specific one
of the one's more of a funone. So I ask the fun one,
what is your dream project to workon? Oh? For me?
So this is interesting because definitely whenI was a student, I had my

(01:23:10):
bucket list of I want to workon this game or this studio whatever,
And I definitely the one thing that'sdefinitely like changed since I've gotten into industry
is that my focus has more goneto I want to work with these kind
of people at this kind of studio, and I think I really prioritize we're

(01:23:39):
handsomething that Yeah, I feel artisticallyfulfilled. I would love to work on
like a stylized game maybe in thefuture, because I really like stylized work,
and I haven't done something like supersuper Stylized quite yet. But I
definitely care a lot about the peopleI work with a lot more and I
want to find cool teams like wehave at TNM that I've worked with on

(01:24:02):
Apex and yeah that yeah, that'smy number one for me. It's just
I want to work with cool peopleat studios where I feel like that people
who work there are appreciated as well. So that's definitely my number one.
Yeah, that's the same for me. I really had like that mentality coming

(01:24:25):
out of school. I was like, I want to get to this studio
just like my dream studio or mydream game. But it didn't. It
took me a long time to realizethat why why I like those games were
because of the artists contributing to it. And then once once I felt like
I was like maybe at the levelwhere I can make it, like all
those artists left and then that's whenit kind of hit me like, oh,

(01:24:45):
like those artists were like really likeputting info out there, and that's
I think that's what I really appreciateit about some of those artists. Um,
but yeah, I think, yeah, for sure, the same for
me is like working with awesome people, um, because there you do get
too studios and then there's just likea lot of ego or assholes that work

(01:25:10):
there, and then yeah, Ithink once you kind of go through those
paces. After a while, it'sjust like what matters the most is like
your mental health and like like surroundingyourself with like good people. Yeah,
and work life balance too, wheresome studis where I'm like, that's my
dream studio, that's my dream project. I don't care about crunching and whatever.

(01:25:33):
I'm used to that in school.Now I'm now I'm old, and
I'm like, no, dude,I'm not gonna do that. Don't sound
fun anymore. Yeah, And it'snot worth your health and like your physical
and mental health to do it.It's just I think it's not worth it.
I rather spend time with my friendsand family. Yeah. I really

(01:25:53):
appreciate our studio for really advocating notto crunch and stuff, because I've been
at other places where I think likeleadership has our back, but then it's
like a death march once it comes, like the deadlines, you know,
like huh. But yeah, workingwith like good people in leadership that really

(01:26:14):
do care about like work life balance. Yeah. I've heard a lot about
like build your portfolio and the experiencesthat you can't control around the job that
you want to aim for and get, which I overall most most of the
part agree with. I understand thesentiment behind it. I think that's still

(01:26:35):
in general good advice. Do somethingthat you're focused on, that you're wanting
to do. But also on theother side of that, there are many
experiences and opportunities that fell in mylap that were great, and there's many
that I had no control over,and so many of the projects that I

(01:26:56):
end up being on I am nota huge sports person. I ended up
at a sports startup. I'm nota huge sports person. My first job
out of the sports startup was asports game. My second game was a
sports game, my third game wasa racing sports game. And I did

(01:27:19):
have a game in there that wasvery fun that I was very excited about.
And again, and it's not badadvice, focus on what you want
to do, build your portfolio towardthat, yes, but also don't be
too hot on stuff or don't betoo hot on yourself, and things don't
work out in the first couple ofyears in the way that you imagined when

(01:27:42):
you first break in, because Iwas just like, I don't like any
of the projects I'm working on.I'm having some not great experiences. I'm
flip flopping between teams that are goodteams that I'm struggling with, And honestly,
by the end of my third year, I was like, I don't
know if I'm going to continue ingames. And I know we've been talking
a lot about Tenam here, butliterally T and M saved me in terms

(01:28:05):
of staying in the industry. Andso yeah, all that to say that
I definitely have like dream quote unquoteprojects. But one thing that I was
so focused on in university was buildyour portfolio, build your dream project,
go for your dream studio. AndI realized none of that has worked out

(01:28:26):
how I thought. None of thathas worked out high life planned. And
now I'm at a place where Iam thankful for the team, and that
ended up being the biggest aspect.Yeah. Absolutely, I feel like I
went down this wormhall like where Ijust felt like I didn't get to where
I wanted to buy this year,and that like really stressed me out and
like I drove up my anxiety aboutlike where I was at and where I

(01:28:48):
should be. But yeah, everytime I look back on that, I
just I just think about, like, like one of my favorite artist is
Kendrick Lamar, but he has aline in one of his songs where his
like careers take Coffee's just got tobe patient, And I always just like
go back to that, like whereverI'm at, like it's gonna happen,

(01:29:12):
whether it's next year or a fewyears. I just have to take care
of myself. M Yeah. Ultimately, I always just try to keep in
mind, like fifty years from now, when I'm much much older, I'm
not going to look back and think, man, I wish I worked more.
Yeah, No, Ian's gonna thinkthat. Yeah. Yeah, Like

(01:29:38):
I grinding like ninety hours a weekjust to get my portfolio to where I
think it will get me. Like, yeah, this is not worth it.
Like taking care of yourself, it'sjust much more more important. And
it's so hard too, because againnot necessarily inherently bad advice, but usually
it stops that kind of where itsays that look at other people's portfolios,

(01:30:01):
look at the people you admire themost, and yes, that is good.
But for myself and also a lotof other artists that I know,
it's so easy to fall into thetrap where you're not just looking at them
for inspiration, you're comparing yourself notjust to their work, but to where
they were at win where they winto win, and I still struggle with

(01:30:26):
that sometimes, Like I'm in amuch better place now, but everyone's path
is different. Yeah, No,I feel that too, Like I think
like, wow, should have takenShould I have taken like five years in
school like this person started like whenthey were nineteen. But you just have
to be patient and be like justtake care of yourself and like shoot,

(01:30:47):
like follow an artist that you reallyappreciate and study why their work like resonates
with you and try to match that, but like also do it in a
healthy way where you just like kindof pasting yourself and taking breaks and taking
care of yourself and going outside fora walk because I didn't do that for
a long time and that catches upto you quickly, and I think I

(01:31:12):
feel like that's gotten a little worselately with like our station and the social
media aspect of it, right,Like when you post something up there,
like people are just some people thatI've talked to you are just really into
about the amount of likes and whocommented and the amount of followers. It's
kind of like Instagram and Facebook,you know, like like it's all it

(01:31:33):
just all feels like kind of toxicafter a while, and you just kind
of have to step away. Letlearn to step away from that. Yeah,
I've Yeah, when I was inschool, I knew other classmates who
made goals that were like, hey, I want to I want to post
a portfolio piece that gets X numberof likes on art station, and like

(01:31:54):
their goal was based off of howmany likes it would get on art station
or Twitter, Instagram. And yeah, I definitely think that's a very unhealthy
way to look look at it,because yeah, it's just it's you'll never
be satisfied, I think, andit's it's not a great motivator, and

(01:32:15):
it's hard, right people you wantthat external validation, I know, Like
it's yeah, but it's just notthe best way to look at it.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Andwhat's ironic is that some of the best
people I've worked with this don't havea portfolio or anything ELP, and they're

(01:32:36):
the happiest people that I've noticed thatsometimes, like, man, I should
really just delete my station and findthat happiness. I don't know, but
it is it is like interesting seeingsome people who don't really care about that
all and they're just like just happy. Yeah, I've worked with a lot

(01:33:01):
of great artists who have literally zerosocial media presence at all, and totally
fine, doesn't matter. Nice,Okay, Jordan's Um, should I should
I ask the last question? Yeah? I go for it. So we

(01:33:23):
have we have the final question thatwe ask everyone um m hm, and
we let everybody know in advance whatthat last question is, so always the
last question on the list, um, and that question is what or is
there something that you wished we hadasked that we didn't And what would the

(01:33:48):
answer be? Hmm? I think, uh, would we be doing if
we weren't in game development? Oh? That's like, yeah, what other
career would we have taken up?That's a good question, So what would

(01:34:14):
your answer be? Chris um I, when I was younger, I used
to really want to be a directorand work in film, like I loved
like Indiana Jones and all those likeSteven Spielberg movies and that that always influenced
me a lot. And I thinkthat's why I really like like cinematic games

(01:34:39):
like Uncharted because yeah, and MetalGear Solid or Snake Eater was another cinematic
game that influenced me a lot.Um. I think that's what I would
probably be doing if I wasn't ingames, maybe doing something with cinematography or
something in film. That's really funnybecause I was gonna say almost the exact

(01:35:00):
same thing if I Yeah, ifI wasn't in games, I'd probably do
like production design for film, whichis kind of a cheat because that's basically
background environment environment are for films,So like set set design, set dressing.
Um yeah, so probably something likethat. Um, if you had
to go like super not art,probably geology because I really liked geology.

(01:35:26):
So yeah, I think the nextfive years are going to be interesting because
and me and Jordan geek out aboutthe Mandalorian a lot, and they used
unreal to kind of craft their environmentsand this big led dot biome and they're
just like moving rocks and stuff forthe shot that they want. So maybe

(01:35:48):
maybe maybe I could kind of swingto that at some point work on film.
But environment art, I just Ijust want to put out that want
to work on the Mandalorian. Like, if anybody hears this, If anybody
hears this, Lucas, I wouldI would like to work on the Mandalorian.
Think if George Lucas, if you'relistening to this, i'd Wanderfore,

(01:36:13):
what about you, Jordan, whatwould you be doing? Oh gosh,
I let you sky hurt on theother questions. Yeah. Um, it's
so hard because when I was younger, my parents couldn't keep up with my
interests. Like one year I wantedto be an egyptologist, next to paleontologist,

(01:36:33):
next to chef um the next uh, something to do with films.
I was just kind of running allover the place. Uh. So,
I feel like if I hadn't foundmy love of games right as I was
searching for what to do for yourcollege and university, it would be a

(01:36:57):
split between just continuing um music withwhat I had been doing, or and
I get that this is very similaror probably to the animation, but that
would be my probable go tos hadI not gotten into games to The animation
is so cool. Nice. Well, I really appreciate y'all coming on to

(01:37:27):
chat tonight and I it was anamazing conversation. It was an amazing conversation.
I thank I, thank you,and I thank Jordan for roping y'all
into this. Yeah, it wasawesome. Yeah, that's great, And
y'all are welcome to come back atany point, like when the project that

(01:37:48):
must not be named it like actuallylaunches, if you want to come back
and talk about it, so wecan talk about how amazing the environmental art
looks, or just talk about thegame in general. Whenever, If whenever,
y'all would like to come back,please please do you are welcome?
The virtual door is always open.Oh thank you. Yeah, I definitely

(01:38:13):
want to come back after we ship. That'd be great. Yeah, thank
you so much. Yeah that wasblast all right, So I guess with
that that'll bring us to the endof episode two hundred and forty four and
until next time when we hit episodetwo hundred and forty five. Y'all take
care of yourselves, take care ofone another, stay safe, stay cool

(01:38:34):
because it is nine thousand degrees inmy office. And as always, friends,
game on, Thank you, Thankyou anything, do anything anything.

(01:39:41):
An An can't be, can't bethe best father the most. They need

(01:41:09):
to be hyst they need to bemaybe the sho

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