Episode 246: Your Cozy Games Are Problematic

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:31):
Hello, and welcome to episode twohundred and forty six of the Not Your
Mama's Gamer podcast podcast, where wetalk about living, working, playing,
in and around the games industry,and we do so from a feminist perspective.
My name is Samantha Blackman, andI'm an associate professor at Purdue University
in West Lafayette, Indiana, andI am joined tonight by my two co

(00:55):
hosts, Victoria Breger and Jordan lukeComski. Hey, y'all doing tonight,
doing well? Good, good good? Okay, So Jordan, how about
we start with you? Who areyou? How are you? Well,
you already told me how you are? Who are you? Yeah? It's
peach season at the Farmer's Market,so it's fantastic. I'm Jordan Lecumski.

(01:21):
I work as an environment artist inLos Angeles, which if you can't hear
in the background all the sirens andnoise that come with big city, sorry
about that, but yeah, Iwork at That's my moon, Los Angeles.
I work on things and stuff.Can't wait to share more whenever that
is Betty, And I'm just hangingout playing games, living with my partner,

(01:44):
my two cats, and drinking alot of coffee, M coffee.
I was debating on whether or notI should make coffee before podcasting tonight.
I was like, a cup ofcoffee would be nice, but it is
we you know, it is likeout nine thirty in the evening, so
drinking like and I don't drink smallcups of coffee, Drinking a big old

(02:07):
cup of coffee at nine thirty atnight might not be the best idea.
So I did it, but Ithought about real hard. That's why you're
going for I guess, oh mygosh, Okay, Victoria, what about
you? Who are you out?Well? I know how you are.
Who are you good? Still?I'm Victoria Bregger. I'm a PhD candidate

(02:32):
at Purdue studying rhetoric and composition,but more precisely video games and controllers.
And I'm just kind of knee deepin my dissertation right now and starting off
the job market. It is jobmarket year for me, so there's a
lot of writing, a lot ofdocks, and not a lot of time

(02:53):
to play all the games that areabout to come out. So it's I
know, there's so many games comingout, you'll be so busy. I
know you messaged me earlier like sostar feeling a month, I'm like,
I am aware where I swear,God, star Field better be good or

(03:13):
they owe me three hundred dollars forthat collectors. I did because okay,
I think I might have been thehype I did. I just bought into
it. Look, when the Divisiontwo came out and there was that watch
that got seeded to certain like contentcreators and I didn't get one, my

(03:37):
feelings were hurt because that was likethe one thing that I would have wanted
from that game because it was socool. And then people who had like
Samsung watches, I think could getthe watch face that looked like the like
the Division Agent watch, but Ihave always been an Apple Watch person,

(03:58):
so I couldn't get one. UhSo when this came out and it had
a watch, I was like,I'm not missing out again. I was
like, I don't care how watchthat collector's addition costs. I want that
watch. So I bought. Ibought it for the watch. I bought
it for the watch, and Iwill probably well, I might wear it

(04:19):
now because I was gonna say Iprobably would never wear it because I was
always wearing my Apple Watch for likefor like tracking steps and tracking sleep and
stuff like that, but I switched. I'd still wear my Apple watch um
for time and stuff, but Imainly switched over to a smart ring instead
because I was getting irritated by sleepingin a watch. Um, so I

(04:44):
can wear that watch too now ifI want to. So yeah, but
if it's no good, they ownme three hundred dollars because I want my
money back. I just looked itup and I'm scrilling through. I'm like,
oh, how's a patch, apatch that I could put on my
jacket. It does, it does, and the little case is cute.

(05:10):
I like that. It looks giganticin the picture that Mmm, you know
it's gonna be like three by three. It's gonna be tiny, so so
for all in that, like allum, you know Bethsa's history with pre
Order, I know, I knowit's gonna be made out of plastic cardboard,

(05:33):
even though no matter what they saidit's gonna be made out of it's
it's gonna be one of those likebubble gum machine watches, because that's what
they did when they swindle people withthat seventy that fall out seventy six collections.
Just yet, I know supposed tobe a nice canvas bag, and
it was like weird and it's likea like a windbreaker material. Yep,

(05:56):
can this bag? Indeed? Yep? I look forward senior watch hopefully.
Oh wow, I look forward toseeing your word. Hopefully they learn their
lesson. That's all I'm gonna say. Howard never learns this lesson. I
know, I know the man isjust a walking hype train, that's all.

(06:16):
Yes, I know we're gonna hopethough, Oh well, good luck.
I'm feeling like you're'sling my order aboutnow. Yeah, but the pomo,
what happens if the watch is nice? I know, I wonder if

(06:36):
you could return it. If it'snot, I'm wondering for you because you
can't usually return games. So well, I'm gonna keep it. I'm not
gonna worry about it. I'll justbe mad. I have something to vent
about four years to come. Butanyway, let's get started. We'll do.
We'll start out y'all with our usualwhat we're playing, what we're reading,

(06:58):
what we're drinking, and then we'lljump into our topic for today.
Victoria, how about we start withyou this time? What are you playing?
They have been playing all out seventysix. Speaking of the game.
Just complained in the season today though, so I get to put it down

(07:18):
for a couple of weeks before thenext season comes out. Um playing Santiaba
four in that season. The newseason made my new character getting through some
of the stuff. It's been allright. The promise is that we played
late at night and the character thatI'm playing right now is the necromancer,

(07:41):
and it literally takes no brain power. So I'm just like pressing the same
button combination over and over and I'mliterally falling asleep half the time because it's
so late at night and I justwant to go to sleep, but I'm
playing a necromancer. India recently beenplaying Dicey Dungeons. Oh, that game's

(08:01):
fun. That is so started becauseI started playing Railway Empires too, which
is one of those games that Iwill just it's just a management game,
like a city builder. This one. You just build rails, you connect
cities. Life's great. You're justtransporting goods between places and building up a

(08:24):
rail network. Suit doesn't require muchthoughts, so I can just do it
and be told like, hey,can you connect Lobock, Texas to Dallas?
And I go yes, I cando that, and that saw the
brain power I have some days.And but while I was playing this single
player game, my partner was like, well, I have to figure out

(08:46):
a game to play too, andso he started playing Dicey Dungeons, and
for whatever reason, I started kindof like integrating myself into that game to
like where i'd just be cheenham playand he eventually was like, do you
want to try I'm like yes,And it became kind of like that Caravan

(09:09):
story that I told last last time, where like the he told me to
play Caravan for him and fall OutNew Vegas and I said okay, and
I did that. Then I startedbeating the game. So I beat one
of the characters in Dicey Dungeons becauseI took his controller, and that's just

(09:30):
kind of the things that I dowell best us. Yeah, it's it's
been really enjoyable. I like playingit. I like trading off the controller
with him. We have two systemsthat up next to each other, so
we don't often trade off games.And then playing seven Wondering Stool and then
started and beat Dredge, very justsuch a good game. It was so

(09:52):
good percent completion. Tredge is sogood. It was so good, and
I just wanted to put around inmy little ship forever. And they added
a like conflict free mode, butthey I was playing before they did,

(10:13):
because you know, I'm a coward. Um. So I was surprised that
myself for wanting to play, eventhough it has given me many jump scares.
Um. But they started a theyadded a conflict free mode, so
I'm like, but I'm like,hey, I'm like a pro with this.
Now I only get jump scared halfthe time. I might as well,

(10:33):
you know, keep playing like thisbecause they have they got DLC coming
out in a couple of months,so or more DLC. They had that
smaller black Stone key one, um, and they have another. They have
more DLC coming out, So I'mexcited. I'm so excited. I thought
I thought it was really going tobe a problem, extremely bad. The

(10:56):
lasophobia, which is terrible considering I'mfrom southern California and the beach was like
a big part of my family's wholedeal was going to the beach. But
I am terrified of the ocean.Same. Yeah, And it like all
stems back to when you're in elementaryschool science class and they're like showing you
how the continents fit together, andthen they showed the continental shelf and it's

(11:22):
just instant, instant. The lastophobiacannot handle the ocean. Yeah, yeah,
so I thought it would be areal problem, but I didn't have
a problem playing Dredge. It isone of the reasons I haven't played Subnautica
yet. But I wanted dry subnauticalSubnautica. I could not play Subnautica.
I tried. I tried. Sono, I am in the same boat,

(11:46):
and I thought, and I wasconcerned about the same thing with Dredge.
So I played the demo first tosee if I would be bothered by
it. Yeah, I played thedemo first to see if I would be
bothered by it. But yeah,for some reason, it didn't. And
I think it's because you can't reallysee beneath the surface of the water for

(12:09):
me anyway, I don't know aboutfor you, and you don't like even
when like, uh, your boatlike gets crashed, we'll just put it
that way. Uh uh, itdoesn't show anything. It's just like fades.
Um. So, I don't knowif that's the reason or how different
the fishing mechanic is. Um.I don't know why it doesn't bother me,

(12:33):
but it's it's good to know thatthat you're another person who doesn't bother
because I was like, huh,just not bothering me. Yeah. So
I played the demo first because Iwas like, if I bought this game
and I can't play it, I'mgonna be so mad because I did that
with sob Nautica. I bought someNautica and could not could not play it.

(12:54):
So that's good to know because Ikeep thinking. I was like,
am I gonna try sub Nautica?And then I Pianic and go, no,
I'm not gonna Drimnatica. Is iton game Pass too? You might
try it if it's on game Passor something. It might be. I
think Sonatico too might be on gamePass. I'm not sure. M yeah,

(13:15):
yeah, yeah, I try it. I would try it before I
bought it, and I'll report backin So it was a no go.
Yeah, that was how I waswith Sonatica. I was like, Nope,
can't do this, cannot do this. My mother when she was here
last time, decided she was gonnatry Abzu and she kept getting stuck as

(13:35):
she was like, can you justget I was like, just give it
to me. Her up and Iwould have to like get her unstuck as
fast as possible in hand or hergame back, because I mean, you
know, I was trying to behelpful and I didn't want her to quit
because she wanted to play the gameso bad. But it was horrible.

(13:58):
It was horrible. So yeah,but I give it. I give it
all right, I'm sorry, Um, was that everything? Are you playing
other things? Nope, that's it? Okay, what about you, Jordan,
what's you playing? I am playinga few tabletop games and then some

(14:18):
video games. We're always playing Dungeonsand Dragons. I think every other week
is like our goal. That doesn'talways happen, but that's our goal.
And we are hitting our third yearin this story, this campaign. I
think we all still have our originalcharacters. It is a lot of fun.

(14:39):
So yeah, always playing that.But big milestone ahead of us.
I cannot believe it's been three yearsplaying one story. But it has been
a lot of fun one story.That's really because we play every other week
and so we don't stick to astory then long. So I'm super impressed.

(15:01):
And we had a question whenever theDM asks the question you're always like,
oh, why are you asking?And they asked, how far do
you think we're in the story,and everyone gave vastly different answers. They
didn't respond with whatever the correct answerwas. But I feel like we've got
at least another two years. That'sbecause again we're having fun, always looking

(15:31):
forward to those fridays. And thenalso I started GMing my own campaign with
Avatar and Avatar Legends. We're hittingeight months there also bi weekly, so
massively different play style. I playa lot of board games, play a
lot of video games, but it'sbeen really interesting to dive into the tabletop

(15:56):
sphere and genre of games and thenvideo game wise. Still playing Tears the
Kingdom, I will make it avery adamant goal to finish it in under
six years, because that's how longBirth of the World took me, and
I do not want it to takethat long. I want to find the
Choroks. I want to finish thegame. I'm not going to get in

(16:17):
the mindset I am not. I'mright now saying it going to get in
the mindset of I love this game. I don't want to finish it.
I'll stop playing six years later,how many choraks have you found? Do
you know? Because I think there'slike nine hundred. Yeah, I do
not know. Still haven't done atemple, so I was gonna ask that

(16:40):
just cooking and fighting and finding koraksand doing shrines, and you know,
I'll get to the I have tostart progressing, though, because while I
haven't gotten any concrete spoilers, Iam starting to see a few things where
I'm like, Okay, I seewhat you're hitting at, and I think
I know what happens in certain areasthe game. Um, but also in

(17:02):
general, I just no, I'mnot going to take six years. I'm
going to finish it. I likethis game. I'm going to finish a
game I like and not stop becauseI'm sad at his ending. Um.
But it will still take a while. It is a very long game.
And then other than that, Istarted Persona five, which I'm having a
lot of fun with. I likethe UI, I like the music,

(17:26):
I like the gameplay mechanics. It'sa lot darker than I thought though.
There's a lot happening in that game. Have you played any Persona games before?
I have not. Okay, Ihave not played I have not watched.
I don't even know if I couldlike name a character. I just

(17:47):
know of the franchise. Gotcha,gotcha? Okay, all right? UM?
Is that it for you? Isthat what you're playing? And that
is I'm playing? Okay, soI guess it's my turn. So I
am playing the Sims for again.I always go back to the Sims.

(18:12):
I love the Sims. You know. I always tell that story about how
the Sims got me through my dissertationbecause I used it as a reward for
finishing things. We were just talkingabout this earlier today, Victorian. So
I'm back on Sims for because therewas a new expansion pack, the Horse
Ranch Expansion Pack, and I saidthat I get really attached to my Sims

(18:33):
one. I get really attached tomy Sims. So I never let my
Sims die. I just played likethe same Sims family forever. I let
the children age up and like moveout, but you still have like the
founding family. But I said thatwhen the new expansion pack came out that
I was going to do a legacyrun for folks who don't know. That's

(18:56):
where you start with one founder,um, and then you have to on
a lot. Then you have toraise ten generations of sims on that lot
um to successfully complete the challenge,and you have to let people die.
Um. So I started a legacyrun, like actually on stream. I

(19:18):
started a legacy run um and uh, nobody's diget. But we have the
founding, the founding family, andthe first generation of children or child if
there's only one child so far,the one first generation already. Um,
but nobody's digest. So I don'tknow how to start work out. I

(19:40):
don't know if I'm gonna be like, no kid do this uh when it
comes that time. But we shallsee. They're they're allowed to age up
and move forward. Um. ButI'm having a lot of fun. Um,
I'm having a lot of fun becausethey're there. I chose a um
the biggest slot, excuse me,um and uh the the town for the

(20:07):
horse ranch Sea. I knew it. I knew it. It was in
my head before we started talking aboutit. But it's gone now. Um.
So we shall have a we shallhave a huge ranch at some point
that we are raising. We areraising our descendants on um. I'm it's

(20:29):
fun though. It's fun though becauseyou have to start out with eighteen hundred
dollars. Um, you get tostart with whatever lot you have in eighteen
hundred dollars. So I literally hada bed, a toilet, and a
shower, um with a roof ontop of It's no walls, no floors,
just a roof because roofs are free. Because so because roofs are free,

(20:52):
so you have like this little youknow, roof, Like literally all
you have is the roof over yourhead, whatever's in it. But it's
been a whole lot of fun toplay that, and I've been playing it
like on stream. I've been playingit on stream. Um, so we
shall see how it goes. Ialso, um, I just picked up
the demo for Pickment four and notthe full game because I wanted to try

(21:18):
it out because I've played Pickman before. But I lost interest in Pickment three
really fast. So I figured ifI played, if I pick up the
demo for Pickment four, because itcarries over to the full game, and
I played through the entire demo andI haven't lost interest, I'll go ahead
and pick up the game, um, instead of buying a game, playing

(21:38):
for thirty minutes and be like yeah, I'm bored. Um, So we
shall see. But I'm having funwith Pickman four. I'm having fun with
Pickman four. So far I haveI haven't been I've only played a couple
of hours, I think. UM. I also played UM I'm in that.

(22:00):
I was in the alpha and theclosed beta starts tomorrow for Palea,
which is a new uh cozy mmoUM that is combat and conflict free.
But it's all about like building andadventuring and like gathering and crafting and all

(22:21):
this other stuff that it's it's reallycool. UM. The game itself is
really cool. UM. And I'veand I've had fun playing it in the
alpha and I'm I'm excited to jumpinto the closed beta tomorrow. Maybe we'll
see. UM. Let's see whatelse UM I play. Oh gosh,

(22:47):
y'all. Vemba. UM was thecooking game. It came out yesterday.
UM. It was a cooking game. It's about UM, an immigrant family
that comes from India moves into Canadain nineteen eighty eight. UM. And
I was like, Oh, thisis cool. It'll be like a culturally

(23:10):
kind of relevant UM cooking Mama kindof game. No, it is so
much more than that. UM.It is a story game about culture and
here was. And I said thislast night when I was streaming a game.
Somebody's like, write that down forthe podcast. Um, it's about
culture, cooking and community and communication. And I would also add a culture

(23:36):
culture, community, um, cookingand communication right, Um, And that
game wrecked me. I cried somany times during that game during it's a
it's a it's a short play experience. Right. It's on game pass um
for PC and Xbox if you're interested. It only takes about two two hours

(24:00):
to finish. The story is amazing. I did get a code for streaming
and review purposes because it's also onSwitch, and I didn't recognize that it
was going to be on game Passuntil after I had gotten my code.
But it's about two hours long,and a lot of people will be like,

(24:21):
that's so short. It is wellworth It's well worth the cause of
admission. I think it's like fifteendollars full price, but it's on like
Launch Windows Sale right now, soit's like twelve dollars in change or as
I said, it is on gamePass. I highly recommend that game to
everyone. Don't think it's just don'tdon't dismiss it as being just a cooking

(24:48):
Mama game. The music, thesound design is amazing. I won't just
say the music, but the sounddesign all together. Right. The sounds
of like the of the pans thatgenerally get used in Indian cooking, the
clank of the Bengals that Vemba wears. UM highly recommend that game. Could

(25:10):
not more highly recommend that game.That's been one of them. It's gotta
be one of my favorite games thatI played in a while. Um So,
I highly recommend that one. Umand then I also UM on my
playing list is Attilia Marie, whichis the first game in the Attilia season

(25:32):
series. Um. They did aremake. It's called Attilia Marie Remade.
Um So it was the first gamein the series, the Attilia Riser.
Like Attilia Riser UM is a likeone of the cat She was a character
who has three games in that series. UM. That has always been kind
of intimidating to me because the craftingis fairly difficult. Um and So I

(26:00):
started Risa too, but I thoughtit was going to be like my bedtime
game. But what happened is thatit's not translated. It's all in Japanese
and you have to read the subtitles. And it makes me sleepy, so
I always fall asleep because I can'tplay it in bed. So but Attilia
Marie Remade is the first in thegame, and the crafting is much simpler,

(26:26):
and it's also much shorter. It'sonly about ten hours long, so
it's a good entry point, Ithink, And after playing Attilia Marie,
I think going back and playing Rizawill seem a lot less daunting. But
yeah, wait, oh you knowwhat else I'm playing. I don't know
if anybody else is playing this,but if you have Apple Arcade, Hello

(26:52):
Katy Island Adventure came out this week. People are described it as Hello Kitty
meets Animal Crossing, and I don'tknow if that's exactly what it is.
I mean, it does have likean animal crossing field to it, right
in terms of like anthropomorphized characters,but you too are an anthropomorphized character or

(27:18):
animal. You can be a cat, a dog, or a bird.
I think I chose a bird characterthat was very cute, and then you
get to customize it and then youjust like go around doing quests. So
it's not quite like animal crossing,but I think people kind of say it's
like animal crossing because of the animals. But it is like a little RPG

(27:41):
and it is on as only onApple Arcade right now, so you can
play it on your phone, youriPad, apple TV, or your Mac
if you have one, and itis only on Apple Arcade, which is
their subscription service that's like five bucksa month. But it's really full,
it's really fun. Um and itdoes have it does have it does have

(28:03):
multiplayer so you can play with someoneelse. Um. So, yeah,
hello Kitty, I an adventure.I know. I don't want to hear
everybody talking about oh, hello kitty. Yes, hello kitty. That's it.
That's what I'm playing, all right? Sounds fun? It is?
It is, um, I tryit, try it. I mean,

(28:27):
if you want to play with acontroller, you can always hook up a
controller to h your you're out youriOS devices. You can hook up a
Xbox or a PlayStation controller just saying, or you play keyboard mouth if you
want to play on your map,so you can play all three ways,

(28:48):
or you can even hook up acontroller to your Mac. I don't have
a Mac. I need I needa device that you put your phone on
like the switch and it connects toyour TV. Mmm, got you?
Got you? You could just youknow what, you there's a you could
just use a there is a USBCto HDM my chord. That's what I

(29:12):
used to stream. Usually sometimes Ijust stream, like run my mac into
my um into my PC. Butusually I'll just like plug my um my
iPad into my capture card UM becauseI have a chord that's USBC to HD
HDMI and you can do the samewith your TV. Mhmm. My phone

(29:38):
isn't USBC. What is your phone? I don't know. It's like a
or lightning. Is it lightning?I mean it's the same thing. It's
just proprietary. But yeah, there'sa what what what kind of phone do
you have? I phone ten oryeah, yeah, you can do it.

(30:02):
There's a chord that will plug fromyour phone into the HD of my
slot on your TV. I'm gonnafind before you and send it to you
and send you the link. Yeahyeah, yeah, I see hell Kitty
in my future. There you go, and then you could play on your
TV because all you have to dois because then you'll just pair your controller
to your phone and you'll be ableto do it on your TV. Mm

(30:23):
hmm. Thank you. If youhaven't even gotten to the book section,
and again I've already added like fivethings. It's fine. Oh, it's
fine. Speaking of books, We'regonna go with you, Jordan. What's
you're reading. I'm reading a decentchunk this time, finished Thrown by Timothy

(30:52):
Zam, which is what I wasreading last time we were talking. It's
just under five hundred pages and samethoughts feelings as I had when I was
on earlier on in the book.I really enjoyed it. I usually have
reservations when coming to books about moviesor TV shows because I've tried a lot,

(31:18):
and I usually just either don't likethe writing or I'm not really drawn
into the characters or the story.But I have really liked this first installment
because it's a trilogy, and Ithink it's extremely interesting to see and hear
the way he solves problems, theway he looks at issues, and it's

(31:45):
not actually told from his perspective mostof the time, it's through two other
characters that interact with him, Sohaving that additional characterization layer adds to some
of the interest. And also tryingto prepare for the Asoka TV series coming
out this month, which is partiallywhy we're reading it now, and yeah,

(32:10):
I don't want to give away toomuch for anyone that's interested, but
it's fascinating to see his relationship withthe Empire and what his actual goals are,
where he's coming from in terms ofhis perspective on certain problems. So
yeah, if you're a fan ofthe character, a fan of the universe,

(32:30):
very well written, interesting story.Excited to continue, but putting it
on hold because I am reading itat the same time as one of my
friends because we wanted to read ittogether and I finished, I think in
like three days, so waiting forthem to finish. In the meantime,

(32:53):
I'm reading two other books because they'remuch shorter, and one was The Gift
One I bought because I liked thetitle and the cover is very pretty.
And I'm very shallow when it comesto buying books and stores because all you
have to do is have a goodtitle and a pretty cover, and I

(33:14):
don't always like what I buy,but yeah, I bought too many books.
And one of those books was TheLondon Seance Society by Sarah Penner.
It's a standalone novel and it's primarilyabout a person who's trying to solve the

(33:39):
death and most likely murder of hersister through the people that she was connected
with, and her sister was veryinto seance and a actual club called the
London Seyance Society. But it's turnedinto a much more more and depth book

(34:00):
than I thought, like when Ifirst read it, I thought it was
primarily just going to be kind ofscary and about the seance and the club,
but it's about a lot of relationshipsand her discovering and accepting her sexuality,
especially in London in the eighteen hundreds, while at the same time dealing

(34:23):
with the feelings of the passing oftheir sister and trying to find out what
actually happened. And there's a lotmore characters that come into the picture.
So that's been an interesting read aswell. And then the final book I'm
reading, and I just started thisone, so this one's going to take

(34:45):
me a bit longer because it's alsoa lot longer. Is into Every Generation
a Slayer Is Born, How BuffyStaked Their Hearts by Evan Ross Cats And
it's a more recently published novel andlooks like the first half is primarily interviews
both conducted by himself as well asinterviews that I've already been done and behind

(35:07):
the scenes footage, and then thesecond half is more of a personal analysis.
But yeah, kind of exactly asthe title indicates about the show Buffy,
and he talks about why did ithave such a big impact, how
did it get so big, andthat even as big fans of the series,

(35:31):
that we can't really analyze it inthe same way anymore very much.
The topic of your faves are problematic, there's things that I've always been problematic
with the show, And then Ihaven't gotten to the parts yet, but
he does dive into the recent discussionsof how a lot of the women retreated

(35:52):
on set and the impact that ithad not just on fans, but on
their lives as well. So interestedto read it. I haven't read any
books specifically. I usually don't readbooks that aren't sci fi or fantasy,
so reading one about a show thatI similarly also had a big impact on

(36:15):
my life. But again, I'mtaking off the rose colored glasses and analyzing
it from a more technical and impactperspective is going to be interesting. Sounds
like it, sounds like it.It's always fun to read those those kinds

(36:37):
of books. I have one ofthose on my list, but I'll tell
you. I'll tell you about itwhen we get there. Um, is
that your whole list? I don'twant to cut you off. That is
it? Gotcha? Okay, Victoria, what's reading? Nothing good? Ellipsis

(36:58):
that's what you're reading. That's whati'm that's what I put on the list.
Well, that's what happens. Whatyou're dissertaining. I'm either reading about
a nova tests anti tests and documentationfor SPSS right now, or I'm reading
trash, so there is no inbetween. That's okay. My my search

(37:21):
history is forever broken until I clearclear my cookies and browsing data. But
my search history, like I goto Google something and I'm like, how
too, and it's like split yourfile and SPSS. I'm like, no,
no, that's not what I wasgoing to search what I wanted Google?

(37:42):
Oh okay, well that's good.It's fine. Nothing good, nothing
good, Okay. I can tellyou what I'm more what i'm reading.
Um. One thing that i'm readingis I'm still reading um four winds um
no, not wins. Oh mygosh, brain, I'm still reading not

(38:05):
four wins, four wings from lasttime. I think that's what I was
reading last time we talk on doublecheck in Yep, that's what I was
reading last time we were talking byRebecca Yarrows. And again it's about a
young girl who's mother is like thegeneral of the Dragon Writers, whose sister

(38:31):
is like a hotshot dragon writer,and whose brother actually got killed in the
service of the dragon writers. Um. But her father was a scribe and
she got sick when she was little, so it made her a little kind
of more frail. And then herfather died, so he wasn't there to

(38:58):
like kind of rain her mom in. And her mom's like, you're either
going to become a dragon writer oryou're gonna die trying to become a dragon
writer. Um. So it feelsa lot like uh, oh gosh,
what is it the odds? Wheremaybe odds being ever in your favor?
Um, what is that? I'msorry say again? Hunger Games. Yeah,

(39:23):
it feels a lot like Hunger Games, because I actually read the first
couple of Hunger Games books. Um, it feels a lot like Hunger Games
because that is kind of their theirinitiation into dragon writing school is that they
like pair off into squadrons or whatever, and they have to do all of
these things, and a dragon hasto bond with them, and if a

(39:45):
dragon sense is you'r week, itmight just murder you on the spot.
Um so, and then other peoplewho are in like other squadrons or even
in your squadron to get because there'sonly so many spots, we'll try to
murder you. So it feels alot like hunger games as well, um
and uh with dragons, but withdragons it is hunger game with dragons.

(40:08):
It's hunger game with dragons, andthey all have romance in them. Um.
And I'm not a big fan ofromance novels, kind of a cross
the board, um, but ithas not been too terrible so far,
but I get the feeling it willbe a little extra, but I'm gonna

(40:29):
read past it because other than that, I'm kind of enjoying the story.
Um. But there's like a lotof insinuation of romance already. Okay,
I was gonna say how much ofit is romance, because I don't mind
if there's like stuff in the novel, but I like the ones primarily focused
on the adventure, demanding whether toadd this to my list of seven.

(40:52):
So it's got a lot of adventureand it's got a lot of like play
at politics, right, because alot of the conflict that takes place for
her um is because of her mother'spolitical position, right, and and the
political decisions that have been made byfolks um uh like her mother right.

(41:14):
So um. So far, likeI said, I'm about seven or eight
chapters the end um, and there'sbeen there's there's been. She not no
spoilers, She well, I will, I will keep it vague. There's
one guy she met and she's like, oh, he's cute, and she
goes through that a little bit,but there's no like lusting, throbbing thighs

(41:37):
or any of that so far.And then there's one there's one boy that
she has known her entire life butshe has not seen since he went away
to like the Dragon writing Corps.And she sees him and she's like,
yo, when did he get socute? But there hasn't been any there
hasn't been any kind of there hasn'tbeen any sex yet, and there hasn't

(41:58):
been any kind of lusty descriptions yet. So I think if it doesn't get
too far into that, I'll beokay with it. And like I said,
I'm about six or seven chapters inUm, let me see. Let
me look it up real quick,and I'll tell you how many chapters because
I don't have a book in here. Um see, if I can tell
you how many chapters there are inthe book? How many chapters in this

(42:25):
book? Google? I'm like,how many chapters in the book? Google?
Just tell me. But let's seewhy why we keep talking? Um,
Oh gosh, there's a lot.There's thirty nine chapters in the book.
But as I'm like a quarter ofthe way through, I'm like,
a quarter of the way is througha little less than a quarter of the
way, and and it hasn't gottenbad yet. But if you, if

(42:50):
you like one away, I cantell you when I get a few more
chapters in how bad. But likeI said, I'm really enjoying it and
like it. Um and ever,like a ton of people recommended this book
to me, I'm like, y'allknow, I'm like romance and nobody but
I didn't know the romance was thereuntil I started. And still I started

(43:12):
reading it, and somebody else whostarted reading was like, you reading that
book? And I'm like yeah,and they're like, um, so we
shall see, we shall see um. And then the other thing that I
am reading, UM is I'm startingto do you UM, I'm starting to
UM. I'm rereading this because Igot it like early this early this summer,

(43:34):
and I decided there's two books thatI was thinking about using parts of
for my world building class. M. One is just like a book on
world building. UM. The otheris I think because I think I'm gonna
do my world building class UM andspecifically focused on Legend of Zelda because I

(43:54):
think Breath of the Wild and Tearsof the Kingdom would kind of be perfect
UM for that. But I havea an edited collection called The Misso Poetic
the miss of Poet, not poetic, misso poet, narrative. Those are
two different things. Narrative in theLegend of Zelda, so looking at um
like miss and narrative building in Legendof Zelda. So I've been reading that

(44:20):
and it covers kind of the wholefranchise of Legends of Zelda. And I
don't know how much like Legend ofZelda students in my class will have played,
but I am going to We're gonnaplay through probably Tears of the Kingdom
I was gonna do. I wasgonna do Breath of the Wild because I

(44:44):
felt like that was a good um, like that was a good, meaty
text to dig into. But Tearsof the Kingdom is just so damn good.
I think I enjoyed. I amenjoying it more than Breath of the
Wild, IM I think that's probablywhat we're going to focus on, just

(45:04):
like we, like I said,just overall thinking about world building, but
the text that we look at worldbuilding through is going to be Legend of
Zelda. So mythopoeic narrative in theLegend of Zelda is one of the texts
I think I'm going to pull somechapters from for class. Yeah, that's

(45:27):
what I'm reading. What are wedrinking? Jordan will start with you.
I am drinking Two Towns cider Housestrawberry lemonade. You have to tell me
about that sounds amazing, it's reallygood. I was a little thrown off
because again I don't read labels,as we've established, and I bought this,

(45:52):
and again, the overall flavor issupposed to be strawberry lemonade, and
I know that it's a cider.But the first thing that it says on
the top that got me concerned beforeI drank it was no sugar added,
only fresh pressed Northwest apples, andI'm like, oh okay, and also

(46:14):
a cider. But the whole thingis supposed to be strawberry lemonade. Is
it just apples? Actually? Likewhat when you go and read it and
know there is like strawberry and lemonsin there, but anyway threw me off.
So if you read that as well, No, there is strawberry and
lemonade. It is very tasty.Again because there's no extra added sugar.

(46:36):
It doesn't taste sweet. It's notbitter. It's definitely a little not quite
sour either. It's a good blendwithout being super sweet. Doesn't taste like
a dessert. I do love lemonade, and I love strawberry and different types

(46:59):
of pink lamate, so that helpsas well. I don't think if you
did not like strawberries or lemons,this might not be the best choice.
But also there is a good chunkof apple flavor in there, like I
do still like it. It isvery clearly strawberry and lemonade as well,

(47:22):
but you will taste the apple.It's not just startberry lemonade. Yeah,
And I think we've talked about thefact for you like tart lemonade, right
or no either one? Yeah?Okay, yeah, I was because I
was wondering. I was like,you see sweet, because I would I
would expect that if it's lemonade,I like sweet lemonade. Um. Uh,

(47:46):
I like sweet lemonade. But itsounds interesting. I might look out
for that two pounds cide or halfstrawberry lemonade. I will say, because
it's no sugar added, it isa little bit more on the tart side,
but it is not like pucker yourlips and super sour. Gotcha,

(48:07):
gotcha? Gotcha. Okay, whatabout you, Victoria? What you're drinking
a milkshake? That is my favoritekind of milkshake. That's my favorite kind
of milkshake. M Okay, that'sa that's a plus. That's a plus.

(48:29):
I had a I can't. Idon't do them very often because I'm
lack ghost and tylerant. But Idid have a mango LOSSI last night.
Um. It was so good becauseI was playing Vemba and I knew it
was gonna make me hungry because itwas all about food. So I ordered
Indian food and um and ordered mangolossies. And for me and p it

(48:51):
was good. It was a goodidea because that that game would have had
me sitting there trying to trying toorder Indian food at at nine o'clock.
At nine uh. None of theplaces would have appreciated that. No,
none of them, not one.So luckily I was smart enough to order
early. And that's what I havefor dinner. But I am drinking.

(49:15):
I'm not drinking alcohol. This isthe second stream in orld. I mean
podcasting where I'm not drinking alcohol.Um, I am drinking water and a
cherry limemate and a cherry limemate.I feel like I'm turning into Victoria.
I like cherry limemiates a lot,though if they came up with an alcohol

(49:36):
based cherry lime maid, I mightbe in trouble. But yeah, that's
what I'm drinking because there's nothing betterthan when it's like when, especially when
it's hot. A cherry limemate,right, because you have that like that
tartness of the lime and the sweetnessto the cherries. Yep makes me happy.

(50:00):
Well, based on that description,I think he would like the strawberry
lemonade. Oh two towns. SoI must say I came into this podcast
thinking I'm drinking something new and I'mreally enjoying it, and I still am
enjoying it, but at the endof our conversation, I still wish I
had a chocolate mal and center youare you are first. It was the

(50:30):
first. It was like the itwas the black cherry. It was the
black cherry, huh. And nowit's chocolate malts, and now it's chocolate
moss. I'm like, oh,maybe tomorrow I'll get a chocolate malt.
Okay. So another thing that Ican't not because I'm lactose intolerant, but
because I have acid reflux. Ican't eat fried food really, but I

(50:51):
have been craving because I saw likecommercials for it on Twitch and for all
places I've been craving. Popeyes Friedcheer. I was like, oh God,
Popeyes fried chicken sounds really good.And my kid won't eat fried won't
eat fried chicken. She won't eatfried food because I don't. I don't
I haven't cooked it. I'm friedfood in my house probably since she's been

(51:14):
born, because my assi reflex isso bad that if I eat fried food,
I'm gonna be up all night.Um. So she doesn't like it
because I never cook it. Um, So I was like, I've been
like, oh, I would liketo have Popeyes fried chicken, and then
today I told myself, I waslike, if I still want Popeyes fried
chicken tomorrow, I'm gonna order Popeyesfried chicken. Now I'm like Popeyes fried

(51:37):
chicken and a chocolate malt two thingsI'm not supposed to have. I mean,
if I gotta go out, Imight as well enjoy myself on the
way out, is what I'm saying. I have to tell you. Currently,
um Papa is spicy fried chicken.It is currently my dopamine food.
I was regular, Yeah, it'sreally unfortunate. Like if I am feeling

(52:00):
overwhelmed or anything, Nick will belike you want to go get chicken?
This is really on it. Thisis how I'm gonna have a coronary.
Like my dad had his first heartattack at twenty six, so it's kind
of like genetically predisposed to heart attacks, and I am well passed twenty six
right now, so I feel likethere's a countdown and I'm just like,

(52:22):
you know what my dopamine food is. Popeye is spicy fried chicken. But
you're not eating it all to day, No, not every day. So
so yeah, I'll probably now Iwill probably definitely have Popeye's fried chicken tomorrow,
and my kid will be mad becauseshe'll be like, oh chicken.

(52:45):
But I'll warner her something else.I won't make her eat fried chicken.
Looking up fried chicken near me,I'm looking up. Well, we have
a we have a go to indeedin mangolossy place. But tomorrows what Wednesday?
I can treat myself. It's halfwaythrough the week, exactly clean,
you made it halfway through the week. You need to do You need to
treat yourself a mango lossie and friedchicken. Who see m yep? But

(53:14):
yeah, I told myself today,I was like, if I still want
fried chicken tomorrow, I can getfried chicken. I can get fried chicken.
All right. So that's what whatwe're playing, what we're reading,
what we're drinking, and what we'recraving apparently in terms of fried chicken.
Um. What what our topic offor the week is is to talk about

(53:37):
here we go this thing is thatsaying I always I always make people mad
with this um. But to talkabout cozy games um and not only in
my mind not only to talk aboutcozy games, but to talk about everything
that comes along with cozy games,um, in terms of like cozy game

(53:58):
communities and the like. Um.But what I would when we've talked about
this before in different contexts, notdefinitely not focusing specifically on cozy games,
but on can we talk for aminute about how we and I'm putting'all
on the spot if you don't wantto, you don't have to talk about
how we define cozy games for ourselves. And to give y'all a chance,

(54:25):
I will actually start because I thinkabout this a lot, right, Games
that I find cozy, right,So I find games cozy that let me
just kind of vibe, right,So, games that that give me the
ability to kind of just do morerepetitive things. So a lot of people

(54:51):
will say they don't like games wherethey have to grind, right, where
it's like like if you've ever playedWorld of Warcraft, where it's like go
out and murder thirty seve and rabbitsand come back. That doesn't bother me,
right, um, because other peoplefind it repetitive and boring, but
it gives me something to do thatlets my brain kind of decompress for a

(55:12):
while and just focus on doing thisthing. And if I'm doing it over
and over again, I know Ican do it well and it doesn't become
stressful in terms of I'm not goingto fail at this, right. Um.
So those kinds of things, andlike UM mining and minecraft, like
literally mining, like going into mindand just going at it with a pickaxe.

(55:36):
UM is extremely cozy to me.UM, things like farming simulators,
right, because you're farming, you'replanting, you're watering, you're you know,
you're farming, you're planting, you'rewatering, You're you're harvesting, you're
replanting. You know, it's kindof got a cycle. And there's there's
a lot of mining and most ofthe farming simulators that I also play,

(55:58):
UM and even like back in mydays of playing like farm Simulator, whatever
year it was, right, youknow, twenty twenty one, twenty twenty
two, in twenty twenty year,right, So those kinds of games.
People always think it's weird that Iplay those, but I find them.
I find the repetitive nature of themvery calming. UM and UM. Certain

(56:22):
kinds of shooters, certain kinds ofshooters I actually find um or games in
general, certain kinds of games thathave violence. Right, I find cozy.
I find I find cozy, andI don't use the word cozy.
I use the word comfy. Um. And we'll talk about We'll talk about
why I use the word comfy insteadof the word cozy. But for the

(56:43):
for the sake of conversation at thispoint, because we're talking about cozy games
as a genre and cozy and we'llbe talking about cozy communities, I'll use
the word cozy, but I'll talkabout why I use the word comfy for
myself instead. Post Apocalyptic games Ifind extremely kind of cozy because they feel

(57:04):
more pastoral, right, because natureis often reclaiming these spaces. Um.
And if there's survival games, Ialso find that, Um, I find
that very comfy, right, havingto go out and find materials for crafting,
going out and finding food. Andone of my favorite kind of post
apocalyptic UM well, I have twofavorites um post apocalyptic catecomfy games are The

(57:31):
Division two and State of Decay.Because there's lots of resources, there's a
lot of resource collection, resource management, inventory management, that kind of stuff.
Like I said, a lot ofpeople find that kind of stuff boring,
um, but because of the repetitivenature of it, and um because

(57:53):
I know exactly what needs to bedone when um, I find it relaxing.
I find relaxing. UM. Soanything that that asks me to to
do that kind of things. Organizethings, collect, things, grow things,
mind things I'm there for and Iand I can relax to those things.

(58:15):
Um Because, like I said,post apocalyptic games, I mean when
when the ship's not jumping off,those are some of the most relaxing games
that they can because they're quiet.You don't have people running around screaming,
you don't have cars driving by,you don't have helicopters, you don't have
anything. All you hear is thecrunch, crunch, crunch sound of footsteps

(58:37):
on like on leads or or onthe on the asphalt or what have you.
I mean, And that's actually thekind of stuff that I put on
on my m my calm app togo to sleep at night. That's that's
how bad I am. That's howbad I am. But yeah, that's
kind of what I think of whenI think of like empy games or cozy

(59:00):
games. What about y'all either,what do y'all want to jump in yeah,
I'll hop in yeah. When youfirst proposed the topic cozy games and
kind of the discussion surrounding cozy games, I was thinking what way we were

(59:20):
coming at it, And normally Iwould reach out and clarify, but I
was like, you know what,I'm going to write down my thoughts and
I'm just going to come to thiswith those ideas and see where it goes.
And the first thing that I wastrying to think of and process was
exactly what you just describe? Whatis a cozy game? Or at least

(59:45):
how do I define it? AndI don't know if I came to like
a satisfactory conclusion, but I definitelywas thinking through what I initially think of
as a cozy game. If peopleask me for recommendations on cozy games,

(01:00:06):
how would I recommend and what typesof games games would I recommend? And
so I did try to separate relaxation, cozy and fun, because when I
played Dead by Daylight or when Iwas playing Call of Duty, I would

(01:00:30):
find those relaxing. Especially when Iwas playing with my group of friends after
work. It would just be reallynice to chat and play this game together
and do repetitive cycles, and itwas very relaxing, So it was cozy
to me, But I don't knowif I would say it's like a cozy

(01:00:52):
game. And there's other games thatfit what I initially think of, both
in terms of narrative and gameplay andvisual aesthetics what I think of cozy that
don't fit into that. So Overcookedmost games with that type of esthetic or

(01:01:15):
repetitive gameplay style I think of ascozy. But Overcooked for me, is
not relaxing at all. It isvery fun. I have fun during it,
but it is stressful. We aredoing the same things over and over,
We're going through different levels. It'sgot that really cute indie style that

(01:01:37):
I like in a lot of thegames that I've been playing. But no,
it is not relaxing to me.It is not cozy to me,
but it's fun. So I haverelaxing games, I have fun games.
And so that I'm left with tryingto define. I guess what for me
is cozy, what I think cozyas the genre is, And I don't

(01:01:59):
know if I have a perfect onefits all because there's always a game that
disrupts it. But I'd have toagree with you on a lot of like
the overall points, things that Ican sit down without feeling stressed doing repetitive
actions. So mining is huge forme. I love Minecraft. Mining was

(01:02:20):
like the highest stat I had inRuneScape fishing, farming, building relationships in
a way that is focused on developingyour character and the narrative. But isn't

(01:02:43):
I like choice in games, andI like that your choices can have impact.
But I guess I'm thinking like startyour valley with the relationship building there
versus like mass effect where oh yougotta choose who lives and who dies,
or oh you gotta choose what youdo in this situation and it may affect
your entire crew. Like that is? I find it fun? I liked
the game, but it was notcozy or relaxing or a starter that's stressful.

(01:03:07):
Yeah yeah, So I don't knowif I have a good definition.
But can I ask a question becauseespecially when you talk about like Overcooked,
because I find Overcooked um pretty prettycomfy as well, right when I'm playing
with the right people. Right whenI'm playing with the right people, um.

(01:03:30):
Amanda Phillips and Kishana Gray and Ihave played through all of Overcooked together,
right, but we just gel sowell. When we play that game,
it's like we we can talk toeach other, but we really sometimes
don't even need to, and wejust entered this flow state. And I'm

(01:03:51):
wondering if that is like holds truefor you in those with those kinds of
games. It's like it doesn't haveto necessarily be cozy in the way that
people think about cozy, but ifyou can enter a flow state, then
that gives you that cozy slash comfyfeeling. That's who you're saying. Yeah,

(01:04:14):
when we were playing over Overcooked,there was very much the same situation.
Like I found a group where wejust click and if, for whatever
reason, the mission is very hardor the level we just are messing up,
we talk a little bit beforehand,and sometimes there's talk during the level,
especially if things go haywire, whichthey usually do. But no,

(01:04:39):
I found a very good group thatwe flow with. We don't always have
to talk. It is very fun, but there's still like an intensity to
focus and Okay, am I stillin my own lane doing my thing?
Is someone else fallen behind, Okay, I'll run over and help them.
So it's fun to me, butI still don't know if I describe it

(01:05:03):
as cozy. I'm so focused.Hm, that makes sense. A flow
and there's an interest and there's alot of fun. But yeah, it's
a it's a different mindset for me. Have you tried Dredged yet? I

(01:05:26):
have not. It's one of thosethings I added to the list. Please
try it. I know when Ifirst heard about it because I love fishing
games too. I love fishing games. And when they said it was a
they some people described it as cozyhorror. But it doesn't feel like horror.
Um, it's not horror. That'snot the that's not the genre.

(01:05:48):
I would like block it in thesubgenre cozy yes, comfy yes. Um.
Maybe suspense Bowl is better than horrorbecause people are like, it's like
Eldridge horror. It's not really.I mean they're they're creepy fish monsters,
right, But it feels more suspensefulthan anything else. And it's got a

(01:06:11):
good story and it's got good fishingmechanics. Um. And it's got a
demo. So if you think youmight, it might because I know you're
like you, you could be likeme with some of the scarier games.
If you think you want to tryit first to see if it would be
a waste of money and you won'tbe able to play. Try the demo
and it's on everything, right,Um, it's on everything. It became

(01:06:32):
my It became my um my bedtimegame. So I was because I was
playing it on the switch. Um, so yeah, I would definitely try
it. I think you might likeit. I think you might like it
because it's I'm a coward. Soif I could play through it and say
it's not okay, you both playedit and said it was good, and

(01:06:53):
I think Sam, you and Iare very similar on horror games. So
I'm still hurt. You dish mein the barn and real like, hey,
Jordan, let's go do this together. I forget the name of the
game, and then I literatured aroundand you're like, nope, oh that
was the four Look. I'm sorry. I'll never do it again. That's

(01:07:13):
a lie, but I will swearthat I would try never to do it
again. Sometimes I have no controlover what my in game body does.
It just turns around and runs away. But I'll never do it again,
I promise. I know you're theonly one who stayed with me. Everybody

(01:07:35):
else kept running off and leaving meand then I was trying to get through
the level. Do you want thelevel to end or do you want to
die? I don't want to diealone. How's that? So many men
kids in the vicinity, but otherpeople done alone? Sam, That's okay.

(01:07:58):
No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I'll never do it again,
Jordan. That promise I don't believeyet, but I oh corrupt? All
right, Victoria, what about you? So? And we've talked about this
a few times, especially like prepre recording and everything is. I didn't

(01:08:20):
really have much of a conception ofcozy games before I started hanging out with
you, because it wasn't it wasn'treally a term I had heard. It
wasn't really It's probably because it wasn'ta typical genre I would play like.
I played a ton of Minecraft.I've been playing Minecraft in Spata, but

(01:08:43):
I didn't know it was a cozySo I guess I have an odd conception
of what it means to be cozy, because when I think of cozy,
I think of Call of Duty,like it's the game that you play when
you're relaxing, and I find thechaos of small maps like Nuketown and Rush

(01:09:11):
to be very cozy shipment ship andshoot a shoe house or even shoe house.
But shipment shipment is okay. Butthere's a difference. You're very good
at Call of Duty. I amnot very small maps like shipment where I

(01:09:38):
can hit a flow state, right, like find a path, figure out
a hiding spot, be able tolike figure out where I'm going, what
I'm doing, especially like um,just like on a very small map that
I can memorize. That is thatis comfy for me, right. And

(01:10:02):
I know a lot of people willlisten to like hard rock or rap or
whatever when they're playing Call of Duty. No, I listened to like smooth
jazz and female jazz singers right whenI'm playing the Call of Duty because it
that is the feeling that I getwhen I when trying to enter some kind

(01:10:24):
of flow state. It's just thatkind of calming feel. So I totally
get you on the cozy nature ofof Call of Duty. But I'm I'm
gonna stop talking you talking. Goahead, yeah, I now. He
reminded me of um. We wereplaying and shipment when and we gotten too

(01:10:45):
We made a private lobby with likeall bots of random ability, and we
were playing um one in the chamber, and shipment is so small that you
can tell who the bot is andwho's not the bot, and so when
you know you're spawning in and you'restaring at each other, m it's just
a question of who can shoot fasteras soon as that countdown and controllers come

(01:11:12):
in handy there, Mum. Butno, I I've I guess I don't
really have a conception of what cozygames are to me and how I play,
because all games are cozy for me. When I think about, like,
oh, is that relaxing? Theonly mode and call of duty that

(01:11:34):
I can think of that could possiblynot be relaxing is prop hunt, and
that's only because when you're hiding andif you're the last person you need to
clutch it, there's like three minutesleft and you whistle and you're like oh
no, oh no, you're whistlingevery thirty seconds, and that that can

(01:11:55):
get adrenaline going. But I don'thave the good conception of what cozy is
because to me, all of mygames are cozy, and that's probably problematic
in several ways. Like you broughtup post apocalyptic games, Fallout is super
cozy for me. Love playing Fallout. I can see that. Yeah,

(01:12:17):
it's especially seventy six, especially withthe camp mode. In seventy six,
I've built my own like paradise,and I create this like stories of like
why did my character go and findthis? And I have like huge backstories
for my character because my character andFallout seventy six is based off of a
primary character that I made for atabletop role playing game, not D and

(01:12:40):
D but GPS, like fifteen yearsago. And this character just gets carried
through into other role playing games becauseshe never died and so she still isn't
dead now she's in a post apocalypticworld. And I find Minecraft cozy.
I I'm not sure if I findStardu cozy because I think about the games

(01:13:04):
that I then binge and for me, achievement hunting is not cozy. But
I find myself achievement hunting in gameslike Stardu and even Dredge, And so
games like star Do and games likeDredge, which are small and often probably

(01:13:25):
on cozy gameless Dredges news. SoI don't know if it's appeared on one
yet, but I imagine it will. But games like star Do I don't
find particularly cozy because I am justachievement hunting in that game. It's like,
Okay, make all of the itemsand sell them, and I'm like,
got it, get to level onehundred, got it, unlock this,

(01:13:45):
got it? Like it's it's thewhole idea of I am going to
get all of the achievements in thisgame, and I'm going to binge it
to do it, and so thereforeit's not as cozy as I guess it
could be. But yeah, Ihave I don't know how well. I've
been thinking about it for the pastweek or so. When cozy games is

(01:14:08):
brought up as the topic, I'mlike, I don't know, how do
you approach that one? Exactly?Because the games I play for cozy reasons
or relaxation are the games that areoften violent and abrasive and full of toxic
communities. So in toxic chaos,that's where I find cozy And that's soomatic.

(01:14:38):
That's okay, I mean, andI mean I think it's interesting though,
for a number of reasons, rightum, because I think of what
a big part of cozy is iswhere we find our comfort. It's where
we find our comfort. I don'tknow, all right, So I think

(01:15:06):
it's it's interesting to talk about thisbecause, like you said, you Victoria,
you said you hadn't thought about likewhat like cozy meant, right in
terms of um, what cozy meantin terms of games, because that wasn't

(01:15:28):
like a genre that you would havethought about it. And I don't think
cozy as a genre. And Ithink that that's where a lot of people,
for me, a lot of peoplekind of fail in their in their
discussions, right, is that theythink about cozy games as a genre.
And I think cozy is more ofan esthetic than a genre. And I
think that that itself is not onlywhere people kind of fail to talk about

(01:15:55):
cozy games, but also where cozygames start to fail us. Right.
And I'm going to talk through thisfor a minute and see if I can
make sense, right, because Ithink cozy games, cozy games didn't really
become a thing in my mind orpushed to the four in my mind until

(01:16:15):
you know what are we now threeand a half years ago, right when
the pandemic started, Right when peoplestarted looking for games that would give them
some peace of mind during uncertain times, right, And that's why everybody was
playing. That's why everybody was playingAnimal Crossing, right, That's why more

(01:16:36):
people started playing like other kind offarming simulators where they especially games where they
could play with other people in atime where it still isn't especially now that
we've got another COVID surge going on. But when folks weren't able to safely

(01:16:58):
meet with friends in like real spacesin irl spaces, then when they could
meet with friends in virtual spaces,or even meet with virtual friends in virtual
spaces, so those games became kindof pushed to the four for everyone,
and not even necessarily just people whowould necessarily be seen as being the audience

(01:17:25):
for games like Animal Crossing. Right, My mother started to playing Animal Crossing
and what was in March of twentytwenty. I know because she got it
for her birthday. I sent itto her for her birthday. She started
playing Animal Crossing in March of twentytwenty. She still to this day logs

(01:17:46):
into Animal Crossing every single day.Every single day. We did, like
during the height of the pandemic,we did more birthdays and holidays and just
kind of family get togethers um inAnimal Crossing and FaceTime simultaneously. Then I

(01:18:10):
would ever have thought I would havedone um, but because it's not a
genre and more became more of anesthetic. I think that very quickly people
started to um decide what cozy lookedlike. Right, So we saw a

(01:18:35):
lot of pictures and we still seea lot of pictures of quote unquote cozy
setups, right, pastel colors,flowers, cute anime things, lots of
like college even yeah, cottage core. But I think even softer than that,

(01:18:57):
right, even softer than that.And also what we started to see
like take off like on streaming servicesand on YouTube and on TikTok was And
I thought about this the other daywhile I was thinking through this the other
day, because I was I waswriting something down and thinking about like cozy

(01:19:19):
as an aesthetic, and I thinkthat the cozy aesthetic is pale and pastel,
and I think that that carries overnot only to people set up,
but the people who are acceptable inthat cozy in that cozy environment, in

(01:19:43):
that cozy community. Right, Becausethe cozy folks that we saw come to
the four and go viral on TikTokor all of a sudden have twenty thirty
forty fifty thousand subscribers on YouTube werewhite women can we talk about how Logitechs
has still cloud gamings that kind ofplays into the cozy atmosphere. It absolutely

(01:20:10):
does, um and hashtag sponsored.I'm gonna be the first to admit it,
right, is that is that Umthey first came out with the Man
Mouse. We laughed about this whenit first came out, the Manmouse.
They came out with a mouse thatwas intended for hardcore gamers. UM.
And they actually based it on thehand measurements of a competitive shooter. Content

(01:20:39):
creator Shroud um and his huge asshands, right and that when they were
like, it's the it's the competitivemouse, and it was the shroud version
of this mouse. UM, AndI was like, they just created the
Man mouse. Um. And thenthey created they created a softer version of

(01:21:03):
peripherals, the Aurora collection right inpastel colors primarily white but with h but
with pink and lime green accents.A small egg shaped mouse. And I
have fairly small hands, Like Ihave fairly small hands, They're not large

(01:21:26):
hands. That mouse is too smallfor my hands. Right. The cloud,
the cloud arm rest for the keyboard, the smaller headset that's meant for
a smaller head size, smaller earcups, very dainty, very very pastel,
right, yeah, one hundred percent, one hundred percent. When we

(01:21:49):
start thinking about how peripherals, butthey've always done and it's not just Logitech.
I think it's all peripheral makers thathave always done that. When they
start thinking about making periphles for women, right, and even when we start
thinking about like the first kind ofcontrollers for women, they were like,
it's controller for women. All theydo is make it pink, yeah,

(01:22:13):
right, beautiful and pink and dainty, dainty end quotes, because it's like
verily smaller than the other controller.Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent,
one hundred percent. I think thatthat's I think that that's the that's the
that that kind of plays into it, right, And and it kind of
plays into it when you see umlike advertisements not only from Logic but from

(01:22:38):
other peripheral folks as well. Rightwhen they're they're doing those cozy um those
like cozy social media posts, right, there's lots of like leaves hanging in
the background, and there's and everything'spink or yellow or like light green or
but very pastel colors. And Ithink that interestingly enough, also, well,

(01:23:04):
like when we start to when westart to think about that is the
ways that we construct or the waysCozy gets constructed for us is something that
is more dainty, right, Um, that's something that is more dainty.

(01:23:25):
And I don't know a hundred percent, Like I said that, This is
why I was thinking through this theother day, and I was like,
when did Cozy become synonymous with whiteas in Caucasian? Right? And I
wonder how much of that plays intothe ways that we or the ways that

(01:23:49):
folks construct what they think is thepersona of white women versus black women?
Right? That that that that notionof the the delicate nature of white womanhood

(01:24:12):
versus the loud or um more ruggedconstruction of black womanhood. Is that why
is it a carryover from the waysthat we have constructed white womanhood versus black
womanhood since the antebelle himself is theirconnection? Is that why? Right?

(01:24:39):
Because? I mean and and evenwhen we see like I said, even
when you if you look at likewho gets pushed um in marketing, who
gets um focused on on streaming platforms, who gets focused on um on TikTok
or who gets focused on on YouTube? In terms of being kind of a

(01:25:00):
quote unquote Cozy gamer. What dowe usually see. We usually see white
or white passing folks. And ifyou see black folks, they are acceptably
black, right, They fit veryThey kind of line up closely to the
European beauty standard, right, beingbearer skinned, younger or aqua line features

(01:25:30):
or as my grandmother will say,keen features. But definitely we get a
very specific kind of construction when welook at who's acceptable in the cozy in
cozy quarters, right, And weeven get this, which, oddly enough
and it's this kind of is mindblowing. And we even get this when

(01:25:53):
we're looking at um who focuses onwhat as like cozy game developers, right,
who they pushed to the four asthe face of their games. It's
interesting, it's interesting, and it'sa thing. It's a thing that I've
been thinking about a lot lately.But I don't know um. And and

(01:26:17):
so I think that that that aestheticcarries over not only from the game and
like the setups that get designed aroundthe games, but also to the people
who create content in these spaces,to the people who create content in these
spaces. I don't know things thoughtsideas, I've definitely seen some of the

(01:26:44):
ads being pushed on TikTok. Iwas going to forward you one the other
day, but I forgot um becauseI didn't even realize it was an addiverse,
but it was for the g Cloudand it was just so dainty.
And the person the ad in thecaption said, U, I've never felt
like a gamer before this before hperipheral sort of thing, and because I

(01:27:12):
never felt welcome in the space typeof thing. And the way they handled
the controller, Um, they hada controller in the ad two. And
then the way they interacted with themouse and keyboard was so dainty. And

(01:27:34):
it's not a way that I've seenanybody realistically interact with a controller or with
a keyboard or with a mouse whenplaying games, or even with a keyboard
and mouse when having to work ata computer. Like we're talking so dainty,
like light touches on it and mnavigating with the mouse like not in

(01:27:58):
the palm, but like using thetips of the fingers to move it around
and kind of almost having a pianoif you've ever taken piano lessons or learned
to play the piano or sat downor watch somebody play the piano. When
I was learning, it was likeball of fist and put it in your
hand and then curve your fingers overit, and that's the kind of like

(01:28:18):
position you're supposed to have your fingersin. It's like a nice, dainty
sort of curve onto the keys.And that's how they were handling the mouse.
And I couldn't. Like, Ikept watching the TikTok. I'm like,
how are you controlling the mouse withthis grip? It's just so very
dainty and feminine and elegant in amidtransatlantic sort of way from alost nineteen fifties

(01:28:45):
housewife like celebrating this dainty womanness thatisn't really existent in the minds of anyone
except for corporate dudes making products forwomen m h like the sheep pen bigs
sheep pen Like, Oh lord,I didn't know how to write until I

(01:29:10):
put this pink thing in my hand, until they gave me a pen design
just for me. Yeah. Ithink it's it's it's it's interesting. And
I think that the that what devicesgets seen as being devices for women,
um also kind of plays into thatwhole kind of rigamar role and that I

(01:29:31):
think that includes the switch right,and that because I hear so many women
um said, say that they playcozy games because because you know that's there
are lots of cozy games available onthe switch, So they play on the
switch a lot, um, andthat the switch is just so comfortable for
them. Where is like a devicelike, Um, where's a device like

(01:29:57):
the steam deck? Is it?And as someone who has repetitive stress injuries
and yet smaller hands, the steamdeck is actually more comfortable for me because
it fits more closely and if it'smore closely into the hand, and it's
stilted, so it's more ergonomic thanthings like than things like the switch,

(01:30:21):
right, because that's just a flatthing and so my hands like literally start
to cramp up um holding the switchplane um without any kind of contourd shell
on it, Um after a verybrief period of time. But folks use
that as like a way of saying, yeah, and there's so many cozy,

(01:30:45):
family friendly games on the switch,and that's why I play those games
because that's the kind of device that'saccessible to me, UM, and I
I and I just wonder how muchthat is folks just thinking that that's the
case, because that the switch hasgot to be one of the least ergonomic
devices it is so uncomfortable, likethe joy Cons, especially when they're connected

(01:31:12):
to the switch, when you're holdingthe switch in your hands. Mum,
it is heavy, it is centerheavy, and it is a lot to
hold up by those little itty bittyjoy Cons. I had to buy like
aftermarket, like big. It's likean Xbox three, uh Xbox fire least
controller like split in half and thenlike slammed on the the sides of it.
Yep, that's for the ergonomic shape. And I think that the Seame

(01:31:34):
deck is more comfortable because Valve hasmore experience with designing ergonomic controllers than Nintendo
does. And I know, Iknow the the Steam controller is a failure,
but it was a comfortable controller forthe hands. Absolutely failure of design,
but ergonomically comfortable. Nintendo has nevermade a very comfortable controller. I

(01:31:57):
don't care. There's gonna there's there'sgonna be people that hear this podcast room
and be like, but if youheld the GameCube controller, and I'll be
like, yes, I have,I have, indeed. Yeah. And
the Pro controller right, which wassupposed to be their more ergonomic answer for

(01:32:17):
what to do with the switch,is horrible. It's absolutely horrible. That
thing is monster, and it's souncomfortable and it's so uncomfortable, and I
think you're one hundred percent right onwhy why the steam Deck feels more comfortable
is because, yeah, why theSteam controller was a failure. It was

(01:32:39):
ergonomically kind of more viable than thanlots of the other controllers we had kind
of at that time. At thattime, and when they were discontinuing it,
I wouldn't bought an extra one justso I always had because it was
like dirt cheap, and I waslike, I'm gonna get an extra one
in case my old one breaks.Um. But yeah, so I under

(01:33:03):
Yeah, the steam Deck is heavier. The Steam Deck is heavier. That
is not a lie. But itis ergonomically kind of more comfortable than definitely
than um the Switch, um,and even in the g Cloud, and
I have a gene Cloud again,I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say hashtag

(01:33:24):
sponsored right, I'm a Logitech gpartner. But I mean I cannot comfortably
play that. I can look,I can comfortably play it longer than I
can the Switch, but not longerthan I can play the Steam Deck.
But they all do different things,they all do different things. I don't
play. I don't play the samekinds of games on the g Cloud that

(01:33:45):
I play on the Steam deck orthe Switch. Um, that's just that's
not what I use it for.You touched on something that I think we
should maybe expand on a little bitmore. Is that there is the thought
that cozy games are family friendly.Yes, yeah, I might expand on
that because as someone who doesn't reallyhave much of a conception of cozy games,

(01:34:10):
why and what does that leave out? And what games are family friendly?
And what makes a family friendly game? Is it a game that doesn't
have any violence? Is it?Are we going purely on SRB ratings or
are we going on what's acceptable tohave within your home type thing. Here's

(01:34:32):
the part where I make everybody mad, all right, So I think it's
I think it's interesting because it goesback to the notion because people think about
when I when I'm saying family friendly, people are like, well, it's
not about conflict, and it's notbringing up things that are uncomfy, and
it's not doing these things right becauseagain, we've got that very pale,

(01:34:58):
very pastel, very privileged esthetic goingon right where everything has to be comfortable.
It is that very it's very muchthat good vibes only kind of feel
that you get in a lot ofI mean and literally that'll be there,

(01:35:19):
that they're kind of tagged that partyline for a lot of cozy environments.
Good vibes only, right, goodvibes only is one of the most privileged
positions anyone can take, right,because folks who come from marginalized positions don't

(01:35:41):
have the privilege of good vibes only, right, And I think that folks
don't understand I mean, and I'vebeen in a lot of quod and a
lot of quote unquote cozy communities,right, and that good vibes only where
people will come in and and saysome things that are extremely problematic, right,

(01:36:05):
that are racists, that are sexist, homophobic, transphobic, and rather
than confront those things, they willsilence that and say good vibes only.
But the damage has been done atthat point, right, and not having
a conversation about that or even comingto the defense of the people who were

(01:36:26):
attacked in that moment, adds toand in my mind, breeds more toxicity,
right, because that is a thatis a privileged position that folks who
are marginalized don't have, right,which is why I think that having quote

(01:36:51):
unquote cozy communities that are largely runby white women, it's so problematic,
right, because it is, andI understand, I understand how we got

(01:37:15):
there because, like I said,I think that this whole notion of code,
the cozy esthetic comes up in atime where everyone was scared shitless.
We all we we were all justpretty sure we were going to die,
right because we had we had avirus that was killing thousands of people every

(01:37:40):
day. There was no treatment,there was no cure. We were being
asked to we were being asked toisolate ourselves in order to stay alive.
Right. So wanting to have somethingthat melt made you feel comfortable or made

(01:38:00):
you feel safe makes sense. Butagain, it's a very privileged space,
right, because there were lots offolks who did not have that privilege,
right, because they had to goto work if they wanted to eat.
They could not work from home,right. And we also had spaces where

(01:38:24):
spaces where like entire like states orcities where the majority of the people who
were dying because of other socio economicfactors were marginalized folks. They were black
or brown, folks, right,they were folks who were coming from a
different socioeconomics strata. So they weredying because they were being exposed more,

(01:38:45):
right, And for a folks,for folks in a privileged space to say
and coming from a place of privilegeto say good vibes only and not addressing
the elephant in the room, soto be kind of bread bread, different
kinds of toxicity, right, Andso I think that that also contributed to

(01:39:11):
the notion that cozy spaces were largelywhite female spaces. Does that make sense?
I think so. Yeah. Whenwhen you pose this question and I
was thinking at like about cozy orwhat aspects of cozy could be problematic,

(01:39:40):
I thought of a few different things. But one of the one trends or
parts of cozy gaming that I definitelynoticed both in the games that I was
playing, the games that I waslooking into, regardless of whether I was
playing them or not, was thisI don't want to say paradoxical because they

(01:40:06):
were developed by different teams at differenttimes, but within the gaming space and
defining which games are generally acknowledged ascozy, I was noticing a very split

(01:40:29):
way in which these games were incorporatingtheir actual narratives and stories and the people
they were welcoming into those spaces,regardless of whether it was the characters they
were portraying in the game or thepeople that they were bringing into their actual

(01:40:50):
space for streaming or advertising. Andfor me, a lot of the games
that I was looking at, itis an opportunity. Cozy games are an
opportunity and a space for marshalized representationsand stories to be brought up more.

(01:41:15):
I know the game's not out yet, but thinking of like Spirit Fair or
sorry, Spirit Swap, and thenthinking of other games that I'm play in
the past, like Spirit Fair.But then also, as you've been talking
about here, cozy games are alsoa way in which to ironically shut down
conversations. And there's definitely been alot of games that are like, oh,

(01:41:41):
we're a cozy game, but cozyfor who? Because you go and
you play the game, and there'sa lot of stereotypes all of them.
My time at portion of my timeis san Rock. I'm sorry, Yeah,
I'm calling out specifics at this point. Yes, absolutely, go ahead.
No, I was about to listthat one specifically my time at Porsche,

(01:42:05):
but yeah, no, So there'sthese games that have the opportunity,
especially when you talk about the riseof indie games in general, not just
Cozy, to tell these marginalized stories. There's more representation, there's more communities
built around these support structures. Butalso it's you've also seen these games like

(01:42:29):
My Time at Porsche, where it'slike, oh, it's a cozy game,
so anything goes or oh we havethe defense of being a happy game,
a game that's trying to promote mentaland good will being. But then
you look at the development teams orwhat's in the game, it's like,

(01:42:49):
well, you've got these stereotypes,You've got these narrative beats that are actually
pretty harmful. So when you askedabout cozy, cozy for who, and
also why did you put this inyour game in the game in the first

(01:43:10):
place. So, yeah, thatwas the thing that I was primarily looking
at. Um. I mean,it's interesting because I had this happened.
Uh last semestered with the class thatI was teaching, is that we were
playing Coral Island in class, right, and we were talking about like the

(01:43:31):
ways that the developers had like allthrough their process, talked about the fact
that they were gonna have folks ofdifferent body of different body types. Um
that as rodmance options right everybody,and that you could make yourself of different
body types and all of these otherthings. And as we were loading up
the game, because we had talkedabout all this, and we had read

(01:43:56):
through like a lot of a lotof their marketing materials in terms of them
talking about body diversity and racial diversityand stuff in their games, and we
were loading up the game and oneof my students went weight and I was
like, Oh, I'm like whatthey were like. So they've been on
this on this hype train about bodydiversity, but everybody on their opening splash

(01:44:20):
screen and on all their marketing andall their marketing materials like that is their
front page is of a very standardbody type. So they didn't put any
diverse bodies on the front page ofanything. It is only once you go

(01:44:43):
in. So the selling point isnot the diversity of bodies, but it
is the diversity of a very standardlyattractive swelt bodies. And I was like
wow, because I hadn't even noticedit at that point, right, So,
I mean, so when you starttalking about so that that sends a

(01:45:05):
very specific message that got picked upby that student on what an acceptable body
type was, even in that gamethat talked about diversity of body types.
Right. So, and when westart talking about I mean and and interestingly
enough, because like I said,cozy games kind of got picked up as

(01:45:26):
these farming simulator type games. Andif we look back at the early farming
simulators, like the early Harvest Moons, uh and such, they were very
white, um and very heterosexual,right, a very very traditional, very
traditional kind of gender roles. Right, And that carries over into into the

(01:45:48):
later games as well, even gamesthat we see now like I and I
think what we might have talked aboutthis last time I played, um Story
of Seasons, this Wonderful Life,which used to be Harvest Moon, a
wonderful life, um and um,you still have to get married within the
first year, right, in orderto advance your game, you still have

(01:46:13):
to be able to you have stillhave to get married during that first year.
And one of the families in thegame is still a horrible racial stereotype.
And they literally called this not aremaster, but a remake. Right,
So, if you remade that gameand you still chose to maintain some

(01:46:36):
of the most horrific stuff, someof the most toxic stuff from the original
version. What does that say aboutwhat gets seen as being acceptable? You
know, and like people like it'snostalgia. And my big question is,
and I think I asked this questionlast time, who the hell's nostalgic for

(01:46:57):
racism? Again? That goes backto your question, Jordan, It's like
who's it cozy for? Who's itcozy for? Right? The I mean
then we talk about and my timeat Porsche and my time at sand Rock
are both both horrible in terms ofin terms of the stereotypes they use,

(01:47:17):
in terms of in terms of stereotypes, in terms of queer characters and specifically
racialized characters. Um and and peoplealways try to make excuses for it,
right They're like, oh, butthey're Chinese, um Or they're you know,
that company's Japanese or that chad company'sChinese, or that company comes from
here, like these games don't gothrough localization, right, um Or like

(01:47:45):
nobody can pick out that's problematic,right, And I think that when we
start to think about that, right, um, folks are like, well,
you know, and we see andwe see it all the time on
social media when games get remay remastered, folks are like a censorship, right,
And who's crying a censorship privileged folks? Right, When when a change

(01:48:10):
is made that makes something less lesssexist or less racist, or less um
or less agist or something like that, then it's always it's always a cry
of censorship. But that censorship cryis coming from folks from who are coming
from a privileged position, right.And if you are like and this is

(01:48:31):
because I spend a lot of timebecause that's where a lot of my researches
is, like in and also becauseI enjoy it right in certain like watching
streams or like watching YouTube videos andlooking at how community gets built, right
and hearing folks say good vibes onlyum rather than you being able to kind

(01:48:57):
of counter the like counter toxicity orracism or sexism or homophobia or transphobia that
comes into the community. The privilegeof not wanting to not having to deal
with that makes that comfy community,that cozy community uncozy for folks who are

(01:49:20):
not as a majority. And folksdon't understand that. And even if they're
told that, they don't care,right, And that's and that's always been
like my biggest problem with cozy communities, and folks get really upset when I
say cozy communities tend to be someof the most toxic because the refusal to

(01:49:43):
deal with the toxicity that comes intothe community under the guise of being a
coach. I can't deal with Ican't deal with toxicity in a cozy community
because it's a cosy community makes thatcommunity itself toxic. Yeah. If we

(01:50:04):
had ignored over the favor of goodvibes, good vibes, it doesn't go
away. Yeah, I feel likethere's an article there, Sam, I
feel like you have something else towrite. I feel like I feel like
And that's the funny thing is thatI was like, I said, I've

(01:50:25):
been thinking about this. I wasthinking about this last week when I started
to think about the fact that thevisual aesthetic carries over and cozy communities carries
over into the humans that into thehumans that run these communities as well.
Um, And I was, Iwas sitting there and I was thinking about
that. I was like, Ishould write something about this. Let me
think through this. Um. Yeah, uh, but we'll see, we'll

(01:50:50):
see it. I will say,I don't feel like a poor person until
I see some of the gozy gamesetups exactly. Those things are. I
look at those and I'm like,like, even like the little things right
when you if you actually look atthose setups, and I'm sorry, if
you look at those setups, likethose little q led monitor things that have

(01:51:14):
like little eight bit or sixteen bitor thirty two bit things running across the
screen, those things are like twohundred bucks for a little little square that's
gonna show you a pixelated heart beatingon a screen or a pac Man running
across Those things are like two hundreddollars. And when you're starting to look

(01:51:35):
at and like I said, Irecognize that these like like the peripherals.
Right when you start looking at theperipherals like the keyboard and the mouse and
the headsets, I mean, ifyou're looking at a full set of those
peripherals, you're looking at almost athousand bucks, right, Those those setups

(01:51:55):
are not cheap, right, Andhaving that also be a very admission to
kind of the cozy space as acontent creator. You're also again kicking out
a lot of folks, right,You're kicking out a lot of folks,
and you're you're setting up who iskind of the leader of those different kinds

(01:52:17):
of cozy communities, and as aleader of cozy communities, you're also you're
also setting up who's going to bewelcomed in those communities again, because we're
going back to that notion of goodvibes only, and who's allowed to be
in that space right because of thelevel of comfort or discomfort they may feel
in that space. Right. Andthen when we're and and because we get

(01:52:42):
that very specific kind of aesthetic set, when we start looking at developers who
are looking to kind of build abrand for themselves and build kind of a
face for their brand or their partnerprograms or who they retweet or any of
that, because it becomes a chickenor the egg thing, right, it's
all cyclical again. They're looking forsomething that matches what that aesthetic already is,

(01:53:10):
right, So they're looking for someonewho has that setup. They're looking
for someone who is as pastel andpink as that damn setup is. And
I know folks are going to disagreewith me, I don't care. I
believe when we start to look atwhat is out there, right, and
we start to look at who getspicked right as a person who as a

(01:53:32):
person who operates as a content creatorin these spaces again, talking to other
talking to other black and brown,black and brown content creators in this space,
I see them get I see themget passed over for those same opportunities
that other folks who match, whokind of match what they think the aesthetics

(01:53:58):
should be get picked for when they'renot as good in terms of being content
creators, when their numbers aren't asgood, when they are not as knowledgeable
about games and operating in gamespaces simplybecause of visuals, simply because of optics.

(01:54:18):
And I'm gonna ask anybody listening ory'all to think about it. Think
about cozy if you're if you likecozy games, if you like like cozy
content, think about how many popularnon white cozy content creators you could think
of. And that's one of thereasons I refuse to call. Like people

(01:54:41):
will come in and like people willsay like, oh, this is so
cozy, and I'm like, wedon't do cozy here. We don't do
cozy I do. I mean,if you want to talk about it in
terms, say it's comfy, Yeah, it could be comfy. I'm comfy.
I'm not cozy because if something comesup, we're gonna talk about it,
right, And if I see somethingthat is problematic racially or in terms

(01:55:02):
of sexual orientation, or in termsof anything in a game, I'm not
gonna pretend it's not there. We'regonna talk about it, right, and
we're gonna talk about it. We'regonna discuss it. It might make you
uncomfortable, but growth, by definitionis uncomfortable. That's why people have growing
pains. And I think that's Ithink that that's it for me, an

(01:55:24):
important thing. Oh, let's see. I'm sorry, go ahead, thoughts
things I'm also reading. I wasjust thinking when because I was introduced to
quote unquote cozy games a lot moreearlier than like the cozy setups, but

(01:55:49):
I definitely started seeing those a lotmore on social media, and as someone
who generally has a pretty mess seedesk in tandem with trying to organize stuff,
like I thrive in my chaos,but I also lose stuff a lot,

(01:56:10):
and I'm trying to organize a lot. I would see those setups and
I'm like, Wow, there's somuch space, it's so organized, it's
so clean and so put together.And I hadn't yet made the connection of
the cozy space and the cozy games. I was just seeing these for the
first time, and I turned tomy friend. I was like, wow,
how did they do that? Howdo they put all of this together?

(01:56:33):
And they turned me and they said, money. You got a lot
of money. And I was like, oh, yeah, you know what,
that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah, money and spare time.
Money and spare time, right,because to get setups to look like
that, it takes a lot oftime. It takes a lot of time

(01:56:57):
to organize things. It gives alot of time. It takes a lot
of time to like rewire, hidewires, do all of that stuff.
And like sometimes I'm looking at thoseI look at some of those those cozy
setups and I'm like, none ofthat shit is plugged in. There's no
way, there's no way they haveany wires going anywhere in that setup.

(01:57:21):
And and um victoria UM. AndI'm not gonna I'm not gonna take credit
for this, but because I don'twant to um, but this notion of
um, of of looking at umin groups and out groups, right,

(01:57:43):
and thinking about cozy takes over.And and this is something you said earlier
when thinking about like the g cloud, right, the that the ad that
you saw, I was like,I never felt like a gamer before this,
And and going back to folks whogo to the Switch because they feel
like it's cozier one because there arekind of cozier games there, because there

(01:58:03):
are a lot of farming simulators.They're not that they don't exist on other
platforms, because they do, butit being seen as a more casual gaming
device. Nintendo even like leans intothat. Right. They have that whole
kind of play my Way campaign thatthey do where they have lots of women

(01:58:27):
and families in those advertisements that arespecifically playing certain kinds of games that are
exclusive to the Switch, but theypush that as being both women friendly and
family friendly. Right. They're nothaving like hardcore competitive shooter dudes doing those

(01:58:54):
commercials and saying, you know,play my Way or switch my Way or
whatever the whatever the tagline is forthat, um. But they're they're aiming
for a very specific demographic. They'reaiming for a very specific DEMOGRAPHICUM and it's
very and it's a very traditional demographic. Again, like I said, it's

(01:59:15):
women and families and people and peopleplaying games with their children, um and
and all of that kind of leansinto that all of that kind of leans
into it. It's not the hardcore, it's not the it's not the hardcore
gamers that you find on pc UM. It's not the hardcore gamers. And
this is I'm talking when I sayyou find on I'm saying in terms of

(01:59:38):
the marketing right on Xbox or onPlayStation. And even when you see the
pretty um, the pretty the prettycozy setups for pc UM, when you
see like what's on the screen isthey're always cozy games, right, We're
not seeing it. We don't seevery many. We'll put it that way.

(01:59:58):
We don't see very many hazy setupswith people playing Call of Duty or
because they're they're again looking for thatvery specific visual aesthetic. It's interesting,

(02:00:23):
all right, things thoughts ideas.I know I'm making may I'm making people
from mad people probably like like unsubbingfrom the from the podcast, deleting all
the podcasts off their phones. Atthis point, it's okay. The title
of the podcast is your cozy gamesare problematic? Oh there we go,

(02:00:44):
thank you, we got a title. I don't have to think about it.
I don't have to think about it. Unsub hashtag unsub unsubscribed unfollowed canceled.
Yep, no, it is.It is interesting because as much as

(02:01:06):
Sony and Microsoft's controllers are ergonomically designedfor a very specific identity, the Nintendo's
switch joy Coons seem to be designedfor nobody because you can't even say that

(02:01:28):
these are designed for kid hands,because a child holding the switch is going
to get tired. It's heavy.It is a heavy thing to hold.
You almost have to hold it inyour lap and like stare down at it,
and then you just are contributing tothe back pain that you don't need
until your thirties. So but it'svery interesting that the cozy community has embraced

(02:01:51):
the switch and leaned into it,into the casual moniker of it, super
freaking hard, to the point ofcreating this whole aesthetic round cozy and using
the switch is kind of the centerpieceof it, including m going so far
as to put skins on it,tons of skins, like I've seen like

(02:02:15):
and they I've watched um social mediaof them like changing the skin to match
their new aesthetic, like, Oh, we're gonna do a little bit of
a rework this week and we're gonnachange Like I really want to go with
this like nice rose gold and kindof a tan aesthetic. So I got
a new skin for my switch.We're gonna go ahead and we're going to

(02:02:41):
just change those Now. Doesn't thatlike so much better in this setup?
And but it's it's vastly uncomfortable.But to be in that in group,
you almost have to be as hardcoreembracing cozy and this aesthetic as you would

(02:03:04):
have to be embracing. We're tryingto masculize enough to be in the gamer
identity for Sony and Microsoft. Yeah, to be considered in the ingroup or
not even in the group, butnot in the out group of gamer.

(02:03:25):
Yeah. It's it's like a it'salmost like a pendulum swing. Mm hmmm.
It's because it's very it's very feminized. It is very feminized, right,
um you you're like, you know, my thing is I liked I
like jewel tones and you can't findjewel tones of shit. To save your

(02:03:46):
life. I bought a new Ibought a new case from my steam deck.
Uh. I bought a new casefrom my steam deck because it was
it looked like it was white anddark blue, and I was like,
oh, I'm gonna buy this andit came and it was white and pastel
blue. Now I'm like, reallythe switch case, didn't you know what

(02:04:11):
you wanted? We're doing pastelves.We're doing pastels because apparently because you know,
if you want a case, ifyou don't want it to be black.
And I like to make things colorsinstead of black, because I don't
lose them because I laid my Ilaid my handhelds down everywhere, and because
everything in my hand, because alot of stuff in my house is so

(02:04:33):
dark that if it's black is justgonna blend in with the background and I'm
never gonna find it. So Iput. I don't put like pinks and
pastels, like my switch has amy switch has a wood grain, has
a wood grain cover on it.Let me tell you how hard that was?
Fine? And then the other onethat's white, and I thought dark

(02:04:55):
blue because blue is one of myfavorite colors. No light blue, light
blue. But to find pinks,to find yellows, to find all kinds
of florals is very easy. Ithas to be very feminized. And that's
not what I'm looking for when I'mlooking for a protective cover for one of
my devices. Um and my device, and my covers are always protective because

(02:05:17):
I also drop stuff a lot,and not just skins that go on because
I'm like, I need something that'sgonna keep this from breaking when I drop
it for the forty seven times.Um. Yeah, but it's interesting.
It's one hundred percent and interesting whenwe start to think about how we are
getting that pendulum swing in the oppositedirection. Right, So going from the

(02:05:38):
golden hands of the Xbox controller toI don't know, going to the the
cozy hands of the switch right um, and the way that aesthetic just changes,
the way that aesthetic just changes.Like another article just popping out for

(02:05:58):
you. That's the cozy hands foryou. For you, I'm gonna leave
golden hands to you. Wait,is that permission to write something else?
If you're gonna publish it, absolutelygo ahead because you can use part of
your dissertation. There you go.I am a witness, you're witnesses hands

(02:06:20):
that I can write something else.Then next week I'm like, where's your
chapter. You're like, I'm writingsomething else. I'm gonna Yeah, it's
trouble, it's troubled. It's troubble. It's trouble. I should keep my
mouth shut. But any any otherfinal old I guess we should start to

(02:06:45):
wrap up any other final things thoughtsideas. I think, just like a
lot of the stuff we'll talking about, Cozy's different per person hmm. Cozy
does not mean it is a quoteunquote real game or that people that play

(02:07:10):
them are not real gamers, becauseI've seen a lot of that rhetoric surrounding
cozy games. And cozy games arean esthetic and atmosphere which can be a
platform for martialized stories and also toperpetuate harmful stereotypes and communities. To be

(02:07:34):
part of the ladder, be partof the solution, not part of the
problem. Please and thank you,Please and thank you. I appreciate y'all.
We're coming to have this conversation tonight, especially, you know, especially

(02:08:03):
because it's a conversation that needs tobe had. There's a conversation that needs
to be at all. Right,So with that, I guess that will
bring us to the end of episodetwo hundred and forty six. So until
next time when we go into episodetwo hundred and forty seven to talk about

(02:08:28):
lots of fun stuff. Um,I would like to stay stay cool,
stay safe, and as always myfriends game on any do anything, anything,

(02:09:33):
a much much as man can't.We can't do the Father, not

(02:11:03):
anybody they need to be, anybodythey need to be. Maybe you just too

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 246: Your Cozy Games Are Problematic

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

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Episode 246: Your Cozy Games Are Problematic

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang