August 27, 2024 • 40 mins
Grab your broomsticks and settle in as we dive deep into the Wiccan Rede’s origins, interpretations, and the ethics of spell-casting. From Doreen Valiente’s 1964 couplets to the expansion in 1975, we’re tearing apart the 'harm none' rule and the infamous Rule of Three. We’re not pulling punches as we critique the overly prescriptive nature of these ethics and how they’ve led to some seriously judgmental vibes in the Wiccan community.
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Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/nvus-alien--4798594/support.
🛸 Love what you heard? Keep following the weird.
Get full show notes, exclusive content, and the occasional paranormal rant at NVusAlien.com.
🔮 Want the universe to spill its secrets?
Book a tarot reading with Heather and pull the receipts straight from the void: Tarot Readings
💌 Subscribe to the Substack
For unsanitized takes, psychic dispatches, and updates on new episodes: heatherashera.substack.com
📢 Tell your weird friends
Seriously. This podcast grows by word-of-mouth. Share it with your favorite conspiracy theorist, ghost hunter, or lowkey witchy cousin.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
You are listening to the NVS Alien Podcast with your host,
Heather Woodward, an award winning psychic, supernatural author and lover
of all things true crime. On this show, we're going
to deep dive into topics so don't usually see the
light of day, the spooky, the weird, the macabre, the paranormal,
and of course aliens. Sit back, grab a cup of tea,
(00:24):
and let's get on with the show.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Hello. Everyone, Today we're talking about the Wick and Read
and how some people take it just a little bit
too far.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Let's establish what we're talking about when we're referring to
the Wick and Read, because in doing the research for this,
we have what is commonly referred to as the Wick
and Read, as established by Dori Valliante in nineteen sixty four,
which is just rhyming couplet. And then we also have
a poem that was written later titled The of the Wicca,
(01:01):
which is also oftentimes by a large number of Kevens
referred to as the Wick and Read, which it came
out in nineteen seventy five, which has a lot more
rules to it. So, in researching things and discovered, there
is some dispute about what is the wick and read itself.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
I don't know anything what the wickn read. I'm not
wicked at all. It's always that harm none. And then
they also with the times three things that drives me
crazy though, so they only two things in it. So
this is gonna be a fun conversation, right.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
And harm none, do what you will? The things come
back around to times three is usually referred to as
the rule of three in Facebook groups or just any forum.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Anytime you ask for a spell, especially anything that's to
do with texting, binding or anything that's getting a lover back,
people say that all the time. Are you sure you
want to do that because it comes back to you
three times?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Well, I always think of the harm none do what
you will, which is like, you're just not a lot
of hurt people whatsoever. Yeah, which is a very old,
tiny way of saying, do what you want, just don't
hurt anyone.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
For a good chunk of my first couple years of
my magical existence, I was a Wickan. I was a
sole practitioner at first, and then I think maybe the
five years later I joined a traditional coven. This is
what I didn't like about Wicca in particular. One there's
(02:28):
no definitive answer as to what is harm. None. Society
tells us what's wrong and what's right. You know what's
moral and what isn't. But at the same time, it's
your own moral judgment. So if you have like a
bunch of witches or wickens telling you, hey, that's wrong,
but it isn't wrong for you, does that still count?
(02:49):
What if I don't feel that I'm harming anyone when
I'm doing a particular spell, but for them it is
harming just because it is a spell that says you
know a particular word in it, or it has a
particular outcome that for them is wrong.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
I can spend any situation for any spell you cast
in a way that you're gonna helm someone exactly.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I've met wickens that have been like, hey, I have
a friend who's in the hospital. The doctors don't know
if they're going to be brain dead or not. They're
in a coma. Can we do a healing spell on him?
I remember having one particular person that Lumi said, wait, wait,
do you think that he would want us to heal him?
(03:30):
Because we can't go against his will because that would
be against the wick and read. That's like the baby
Hitler argument. What's the baby Hitler argument?
Speaker 3 (03:36):
If you had a chance to go back in time
and kill baby Hitler, would you do it now? If
you were a doctor in the time of Hitler and
Baby Hitler had a dire illness and you knew what
he was going to be come in the future, would
you save him.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yes, we don't know.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
What the future holds him. There could be a stucky
Hitler that's three times as bad as Hitler. The second
one about if he had an illness and you could
treat him or he could die. I would treat him
because it's my job as a doctor to heal. It's
not my job to judge. In action would not be
acceptable as a doctor. I would feel I didn't do
(04:12):
my due diligence if I were to let him die,
that's not my choice to make.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Knowing people he would have put in kill and Maine
and destroy.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
Hitler just didn't kill people. He was very much into
astrology and mysticism, and he has very much into witchgrat
A lot of the people that he worked with further
thor failed in science and technology, and there was a
lot of good that came out of Hitler. Even though
people don't want to talk about that part.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Along the lines of the argument, the better the double
you know and double you don't. There's no way to
know that that technology wouldn't have evolve about him.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
I don't think that killing Hitler it was going to
change too much. I mean, there's Mussolini too, and there's
plenty other dictators out there that did purple things as well.
For me, it seems too black and white.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
The argument was when I was with my friends, are
we going against the this guy's will maybe he wants
to die, And they're like, I'm pretty sure he does it,
and she's like, okay, I just want to make sure
and that everybody agrees that we might be going against
his will and that might come back to haunt us.
Just to let you guys know, he actually woke up
(05:16):
two days later had no issues.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
I think that us as energetic beans, if he really
wanted to die, he would not take in on the
energy in the first place, Like exactly because you did
the spell doesn't mean that he has to adhere to that,
because his soul would have said, no, I want to
die next day on the spell.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
A spoilers, Do you guys remember Buffy the vampire Slayer
of the series. Yeah, yeah, and how they brought her back, and.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
I remember that part.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
I do remember some part of it. Yeah, she doesn't
have like a soul or she's not happy when she
comes back.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
She's not happy in heaven, and Heaven's kind of a
nice place. And they brought her back. He was super depressed.
And then she had that weird, like unhealthy relationship with Spike. Yes,
I it's a weird relationship. Is not healthy for obvious reasons.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
He was still evil vampire. He just liked her other
reasons too.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
I think it was such a weird, like how did
the last three seasons above the vampires?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Like what the fuck is going on?
Speaker 3 (06:13):
But yeah, yeah, but that's like the same kind of thing,
Like why would we bring him back if he was
potentially going to a better place and he was ready
to let go force him to be on this hellscape
when he had a way out.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I don't know if he was meant to die, how
much I would pray, no matter how much I would
cast spells. If he's meant to die, he will die.
You don't believe in check out points? What do you
mean check out points?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
You have the option, do you want to stay or
do you want to go?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
I think you can make that decision, but the path
to getting there that is already like written. You can't
get out of that. But to decide whether or not
you want to stay and survive it, that's up to you.
When it comes to like, oh, this is the day
that you almost die or you are going to die,
but it's today.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
If it's your time, with your time, there's nothing you
can do.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Could you believe that?
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Lie to me? Where you run into situations that you
have no people over where you, I then have the
option do you stare or do you go?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Right?
Speaker 3 (07:11):
But you also said previously, if it's your time, it's
your time, and there's nothing you can do.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I meaning it's a time either to die and have
that experience that you get to that point where you
make that decision.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
It sounded before like you were saying like, if it's
your time to die, and then it's your time to
die and there's nothing you can do about it. You're
gonna die, Like maybe you can change how you die, but.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
You're still you can definitely change how you die. You can,
I mean obviously you can't be like, well, I'm thinking
a car crash. Oh it's a little too messy, you know.
It's not like that kind of change or decisions like
little destination.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
You dodge the lumber truck, but now you're gonna be
electrocated exactly like that.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
But you can decide at the end, like when you
get to that point whether or not you're gonna survive.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
It or not.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
But okay, then gotcha, plumpthing's gonna happen.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
You have to pay the choice. Yeah, right, okay, so
you're gonna confront death one way or another.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Right, thank you. That's what I was trying to say.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
This is where it gets chicky with the W I
can read though, because especially with spell work, even if
you bind somebody, if they don't want to be bound,
it's not really gonna work that well.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
I've never ran into that situation like, oh, you're doing
a binding on me. Thinks I'm just gonna relax. Now.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
There's a lot of people that are like that. They're
just really complicit.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, I've met people that are very like passive aggressive
and they're just like, oh whatever, and they just don't care.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
I would think that like binding was kind of an
extreme mever, but okay.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
It really depends on the person. If they have like
a very strong will, then yeah, they're gonna fight the binding,
whether it be like consciously or unconsciously. But if people
are like ink, what elms, it's not like it's really
affecting my life. I guess those people can get binded
really easily.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Binding wouldn't really be where you went with that.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
The thing is that they're complicit to it. The way
that I see it. When people are like that complicit
about a binding, their life is already shit that they're
just like, well, it's another shitty day, another shitty thing
in my life. It's not like it's gonna make it
any words, and it already is.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Not to say that we bind everybody all the time.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
You guys want all like white witchcraft. I'm binding right now.
That's a cool fois.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
They just don't know, or they don't care, or they
take in whatever energy is present. A lot of times
I'm like, oh, someone's doing some kind of spell work.
I gotta banish this shit. I'm just fully aware all
of people aren't like that. Love people are like, well, I'll.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Just let this energy in.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
We'll see what if I don't understand about the wick
in thereen does these are traices that we make, not
we can I practice who do. I'm kind of an
eclectic witch. I pulled from a lot of different places
and that's my choice. But I have done some texes,
I've done some negative spell works, and I always feel justified.
(09:44):
So I'm like, I don't really care if it comes
back at me three because I know it's not because
I have all my ducks in a row, and I'll
believe in that anyway.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
But your duck are solow in a row just in case,
just in case.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Right, I'm not one of the people that just does it,
like right out of the gate.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
I'm like, oh, I'm pissed. I'm gonna do it.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
No, I write it out. These are the reasons. There
are these reasons judged Bible. To me, do I see
any caveats in this where maybe I'm just being an
asshole right now? And if I am being an ouseol
right now? Am I okay with being an asshole to
the questions that I ask myself. If I feel like
there's no other way but this way to give the
(10:19):
energy back with you a bi ring spell or a hexing,
then I'm like, yeah, okay, I'm totally gonna do it.
And I feel like with Wika especially, you don't have
that leeway.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
What the spells do you do?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
You send them love and light and hope that a
good hug solves, let's pray, let's send healing spells, or
let's send them peace and love.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
And the way that I was taught when I was
a wicked, I always noticed that most of the spells
were very nonspecific on people. Let's say you want to
see a love spell. You could do a love spell,
but you could not specifically target a living person that
you knew. I want a person that looks like this,
and he looks a lot like Tom, but I'm not
(11:00):
specific way saying Tom and he looks just like him.
You know something, I'm gonna throw a picture of Tom
just to give you an idea of what I'm looking for.
The coven that I was in, it was a type
of tradition that you.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
Would expect that they would do a lot of crazy
spell work over the top, Like you would be like, bro,
I want to learn all these like really dark deep
secrets about Wi gu and blah blah blah and magic.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
And all that shit. And you get there and you're
just like, so, I can't cast any of these type
of spells, but I can word it a certain way
for then it doesn't harm none. And I soared a
kind of get the same results, like a Russian roulette
of what it is that I'm gonna get.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
But that sounds like really shitty spell work. The whole
point of spell work is to be focused with the
intension what about this or something better? I have this
in mind and I really would like this. But if
you want to throw some other stuff around, that very
right too.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
You can do that too. For instance, i'd say you
wanted to do a prosperity spell for like a business.
If you wanted to do a prosperity spell, you'd say like, oh,
I want more club customers. I want more customers to
come to the store. I want them to want to
come to the store. But you couldn't say I want
them to lust over the store. I want them to
want to be here all the time and buy everything.
In other words, you couldn't make it sticky and sweet.
(12:13):
That's the best I could describe it. They see it,
it's a bag, and they like it. They're cool. But
if they want to buy something only they want to,
you know kind of a thing. It's like get them
in the door, but don't make them buy anything. It
would be like that kind of spell. It wouldn't be
like they just have to they just like die and
get something from the store.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
It's very fastive aggressle spor So what about like freezer
spells or honey jars or stuff like that?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
And done spells, but not while I was wicked. When
I was doing those spells as a sole practitioner, I
wasn't thinking to myself, Oh, I'm doing something that's you know,
against the wick and read do what ye will harm none.
I didn't think that. I was like, oh, yeah, that's
within the parameters of the specifications. And then when I
joined the coven and I actually like had long ethical
(13:00):
conversations with the members in the coven, I was like, oh,
in that time that I was quote unquote naughty as
a Wickan, and now that I am not a Wickan
and I am being very naughty. I have not, as
far as I've seen personal experience, it's a threefold law
hit me. I've never had it.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
Coming all today Now that you've.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Said that, God like there's one and there's two, it's
I've never felt like, well, here goes all all, you know,
because I did this spell the other day. Shit, man,
now I'm getting it, and mind you have been doing
this for years. I think the reason I don't is
not just because I think it's It's not that I think, oh,
it's a little bullshit. I don't feel that I've done
(13:41):
anything wrong, and I think that plays a huge part
in karma of attraction thing. Yeah. Yeah, If you believe
that you did something wrong and that you should be
punished for it, then guess what, that's what you're going
to attract. And you're not going to stop paying that
law of a quote unquote attraction punishment for what you've
(14:03):
done quote unquote, You're not gonna stop paying for it
until you stop feeling guilty. That is why I think
sociopaths and psychopaths do so fucking well in life. They
don't feel guilt, They feel entitled to it. That energy
that karma doesn't get them. Before I do a spell,
I'm always like, would I hate me if I was
the person who if somebody did this spell to me? No,
(14:25):
I wouldn't hate me. Okay, then we're gonna do this spell.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
I'm like, does this bitch really need to shut up? Yes,
yes she does, Yes she does. Spell you know what
I mean. But I'm a little barer.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Blasphemish. I didn't mean it to be that blasphemish.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
I think this is where it gets tricky for me,
is because I'm not really a big.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Believer of karma.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
I mean, like, I believe in karma, but not only
most people believe in karma. I don't think it's like, oh,
you do this and this thing automatically happens.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
It's not how it or closet the Q like just
queue it up. You're right, I.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Think it's a little more rad to degenerate. We go
by percentages here. I know every action has a reaction.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Is that what it is? Evil and opposite reaction.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
Right, But there's plenty of those happening simultaneously, So I
think we go by averages.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Part of the chorus, you're pretty decent, so when average,
your life should be pretty decent.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
Right exactly, Because you're right, I'm sort of chaotic neutral.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
That is so d and D right there for us.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
But it's that's how I feel about it. So when
I see people in groups saying, oh if you're your
karma's coming Dutch Us times three. I'm like, well, you
don't know what my random generator looks like, go fuck yourself.
I have broccoli today.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I'm good.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
I'm one of those really crazy pantheist types where I'm
just like, whatever system you sign up for is the
one that's gonna work for you. So if you want
the rule of three, then that's what you get. I'm
working on the whole, like the gods and the planet
and the spirits and the critters, we all just want
to work together.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
You could go ahead and send they hate mail directly
to me, but as a whole, I just feel like
Wick is very judgy if we're going.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
To go there, I feel like it's the entry level
transitionary phase between Christianity and Paganisms.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
That yeah, I always just kind of felt like it
was Fretianity with a skirt on.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I'm not saying that Wick is a bad thing. It's
it's not a bad religion. It's an okay religion.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I think it very into harming people when they.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Do yes sights they do they do. I've had a
bad experience with that as well. There was this girl
who was like, oh, how do I get my boyfriend
to not cheat on me? And I had not read
all the comments and really just put down freedom some
of your menstrual blood, or take his shoes, his sandals
proferably because you might not miss them, and nail them
(16:45):
to the structure of the house that you share with him,
or your house so then he never leaves. And there's
this one girl who literally just went ape shit on me.
Oh this one me commenting that, and I was like,
what the fuck, Like what did I do? And mind you,
this is a group where you have a lot of
(17:05):
people that are not at all wickans. These are people
that are like, do crazy spells that make you go like,
I never want to upset you ever, just want to
let you know you're cool, and we're cool, right, We're cool.
I never want to even bat my eyes at you.
It's that kind of spell work that they do in
this pretty particular group. And that's why I never comment,
(17:27):
because I'm like, oh, I don't know about them, Let
me not ruffle any feathers. And then this one girl
is just like, how could you you know it's not
really her boyfriend and blah blah blah, and supposedly in
the comments, she admitted that this guy wasn't her boyfriend,
it was just a guy that she liked, that she
wanted him to be attracted to her. And I was like,
(17:49):
that still works. What I told is it would still
work for the situation SN so she can do that
the girl.
Speaker 6 (17:55):
And he's like, because what I'm assuming she was a
wicked or she wasn't a wicked, but she still maybe
like was still in that Wickan read I'm not comfortable
with not being a wicked just yet.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
But I don't want to be a wicked.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Because you know, even though they say, like you know
and a hard nun, do what you will, I mean,
that's like a very definitive statement. And if you read
the people writing who wrote that statement, Gardner and Douran
Valiente and Raymond Buckland, who started that tradition of wicca
in the United States, they're like, Nope, that's explicit. That's
exactly what that means. There's no wiggle room and at
(18:32):
harm none none meaning zero, do what you want. But
you know a lot of wickens apply that like only
to spell work. So calling people a name and shooting
them out over nothing that doesn't count because it's not magic,
but like, this is an ethical code. Man.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Funny enough that you mentioned that, but in the coven
that I was in, I asked, why do they put
that in the Wicked read when there's other traditions that
you know, you soon cast whatever the heck you want,
as long as it's part of a spell that is
considered part of that tradition, you know. And they were like, oh,
because Gerald Garner was noticing that the priestesses that he
(19:08):
had initiated quote unquote, this is like what they said
to me. I am not saying that this is fact,
not necessarily that it's the story exactly that they were
being very caddy and casting spells on each other because
they wanted to get his favor and he didn't like that,
(19:29):
and he didn't like the cadding nests supposedly, and because
of that he put that in wick up.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
That's cute that like big Daddy Gardner had to keep
his girls in life.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, which is very misogynistic, I know, are gonna say,
very very misogynistic, very fair.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Yeah, stereotypes.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
I'm yeah. And actually, when when I was told that,
and I was like, so what so what if they
were like, that doesn't mean that we have to be
treated like it for little kids who can't cast certain
spells because God forbid, if Grandpa Gardner doesn't like her
shit or doesn't like our attitude the story that you
(20:13):
just told us. Yeah, it feels very the opposite of
why I got into witchcraft. I got into witchcraft because
I was raised Baptist and it's very very like a
lot of rules, and it's very misogynistic and is there
everybody in their place, and there's things you can't do
and things you can't do.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
And for me, witchcraft was this.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Place where I could explore, I could express, I could
do my own thing, and I could have my own
thoughts about it, and I could use my own judgment
and use my own power to get what I want,
to get what I need, and it didn't matter if
I wanted it or needed it.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
I can still get it.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
This whole thing about well, if you don't need it,
then then why would you ask for it?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Well, bitch, because I want it.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
For me.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Spellcasting is very much about my rules, bitch. This whole
idea of someone telling me what to do is kind
of the antithesis of what I'm about. And I didn't
do well in Baptist Christianity, and then I saw this
construct of Wicka. Those trials too similar. And now I
(21:16):
got Judgie bitch is telling me what to do. Judge patriarch,
you telling me what to do. Now I just got
judge bitches telling you what to do. And I'm like,
I don't know which is worse. Who're all validated because
they got the word from Gardner.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Right he was a man.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
The stuff that I see on Facebook, the stuff I
see on YouTube, the stuff I see elsewhere, it does
have that like fire and brimstone feel, but just the
spell cast version.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
And that's my feeling too, is like we're going to
take the Christian deity and give him a gender swamp,
and then we're going to add some magic to it,
and then add some magic back to it.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
I guess we're both because it used to be a lot.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Of magic in Christianity back in the day. I don't know,
it was too quol to the stuff I was already
not interested in.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Most of the people that I know that I met
while I was wicked are no longer wicked. They've either
moved away from spirituality or like Wicca and woodcraft in general,
or the practice whodoo or like a darker form of
magic or just something a little bit more what what
would you would consider to be more intense magically and
(22:26):
not so pretty and aesthetically pleasing. See, I think it's
the word of lucky, the far the.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
What fluffy, fluffy?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yeah, I'm trying not to say fluffy. I find fluffy
to be like rude. Sometimes it does apply and sometimes
it doesn't. For me, it's like an unnecessary bad word.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
Fluffy.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
I like Wu, I like woo.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
I'm perfectly fine with woo woo or woo. I don't love.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Fluffy because my nickname is fluffy, because because people think
I'm so lovely light and.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Then I'm all out, you know me, like you're not
You're not love oh Iri.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
The way we feel about words is a funny thing.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
It is.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
But weren't you saying CHARLVI that that you feel like
wicka is kind of a it's like that inter what
was the word?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I don't even like comediary step that's intermediation.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yeah, yeah, between monotheistic religions and meganism kind of like
a good way to ease your way in if yeah, yeah, yeah,
you know, it's a it's a. It's a half step.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
The thing about Wika that makes it for most people,
not all people, but for most people, it makes it enticing.
It's because you get all the cool witchy stuff with
or at least you think you do, without any of
the you're going to hell or you're evil or you're
you know, depending on what religion you come from originally,
(23:55):
if you had any, it's sort of like that easy
sort of like, you're not going to hell, you're not evil.
You know, we're shipping the devil hate.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
We're not bad. We're all good and moral and we're
doing the same things. We just have a different goddess.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Yeah, we're just trying to save the world with our
love of witchcraft and the goddess and blah blah blah.
For the time that I was wick and I felt
for a hook line and sinker, I was like, oh
my god, is awesome.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
They're a good way for people to ease into New
Age spiritual community without having to dive in deep.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Okay, you know, it's a good introduction. Yeah, and some
people stay in wick up because that's where they feel
the most comfortable. That is okay if you're not the
type of person that you want to do something more
than just like protective spells or prosperity spell or like
happy spells and all that stuff. That's okay. I know
I'm not saying I'm not saying that Wicka sucks or
(24:47):
anything like that, or if it's bad or anything. I'm
I'm more of along the lines of this is my experience,
and this is how I feel about it now. But me,
if it's if it's your bag, it's your bag, and
you should be proud of it, you should okay with it.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
I don't know all the Wickens I've encountered. Most of them, okay,
seventy thirty have been mean.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
In every religion. It doesn't even matter if it's Wicka.
It's like every religion. You're gonna find those freaking purest
elite mentality in a religion or in a group setting,
you're gonna find it.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Seems more in the wakened community.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
Yes, yes, it is more like love and lighters light
workers mm hmm, and Wicca seemed to be the biggest
assholes on the planet. I don't not know, Like, if
you're love and light and you're supposed to be good,
how come you're the meanest assholes. I don't get it.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
You know, when I was in the process of going
from Wicca to where I am now, where I was
in that middle ground that I wasn't sure if I
wanted to hext someone or not that I've ever have
I ever had? Oh, I don't even remember if I
hexed anybody. We gotta think about that. That's how much
I really just I'm not so concerned about it like
I was when I was wicked that I'm just like,
(25:58):
have I ever had some I kind of think about that?
Was that what that I do last week? Yet like
it's one of both this kind of things. I was
still not comfortable with doing certain spells that I am now.
And what really made me go, Okay, yeah, I'm done,
We're good. I think I'm gonna be fine doing these
tuff of spells. I think I'm gonna be fine going
in the direction that I feel almost comfortable.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
You know what.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
It was funny enough, I was getting a reiki treatment
and it was great. It was like, oh my god,
the Ricky treatment was great. I have nothing wrong with
that reiki treatment and I love rape. By the way,
after a reiki session, namely the Reiki Master gives you
like a low down of what they feel in your
energy and blah blah blah blah. He said something along
the lines of because he knew that I was a witch,
(26:41):
and I didn't mention that I was weak in or
not with it. I just said I do witchcraft. That's
all I said to him. And he's like, oh, just
to let you know, you know, witchcraft is not good.
And mind you, this is a guy who's not a Christian,
he's not religious in that way. He's a complete light worker.
And he gave me this sort of like Christian sort
(27:02):
of look, like the way that Christians look at me
when I tell them that I'm a witch and they
give me like, that's sweety. Let me talk to you
about Jesus, because you don't know what you're doing.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Let me man explain you.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah. And I was just like, ah, thank you for
the session. I was really enlightening. Thank you very much.
I'll talk to you later bye. And I left and
I was just like, yeah, this is total bullshit. I'm
not doing this anymore. If I even get it in
the spiritual community, that same sort of looking down on
me because I'm not you know, all love and lighten
(27:35):
pretty flowers and on shit. Then I don't want to
be part of that community either. I need to figure
out my own shit my way and do it my
way and not give a shit about anybody else.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
A lot of new Agers are still very much love
and light I know because you know, I grew up
in the New Age community. My mom was a metaphysician
and a witch. I am a witch, which is a
different thing, and I very much grew up with the
stigma in the community that like that is a line.
We don't puss. You can do anything you want, but
once you get to the point where we're talking about
(28:07):
like spells, then you fucked up. Isn't the intent? No, right?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Because like you can do you can I.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Think it shield around you, or you could cast a circle.
It's the same intent, right, But when you playing with
dark forces and the other one's fine, there's no way
you could ever hurt yourself.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
That's the word.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
That's the connotation in the community, not that those things
are actually true, because you can absolutely hurt yourself just energy.
It's fine, but you know, but that's the way the
community treats it. Like once you cross this line into
doing actual spell work, playing with dark forces.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Kind of know, I so, but people think about who
do like any kind of root work or earth magic.
It's okay to do a prosperity spell, or it's okay
to do air quotes white spell, but if you go
anywhere in the out of the white light area, then
it's automatically bad. Even I feel like abundant spell or
prester arity spells. I mean, I know that that's like
(29:03):
air quotes light magic, but it's very self. They're kind
of the bending.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Other thing is also the mindset.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
Like you're spending energy to your will.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Though that is all.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Energy work and magic is like that's the definition of right,
all of it like protection, healing, blessings rare, all of
it is bending energy to your will.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
Right, So if i'm if I want that person to
shut up, or if I want money, what's the difference.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Right?
Speaker 3 (29:34):
So, I know a lot of people draw the line
at like affecting other people's free will or whatever, but
like I feel like, especially a lot of people you know,
and in these podcasts you've heard me talk a lot
like growing up and dealing with different groups and communities
and kind of getting shunned here and there and kicked
out of various communities over and over and over again.
(29:54):
So I do kind of have a chip on my shoulder.
E FIS is a sticky murking, and you can't just
throw a followed rule that is like, vouch shalt never
do this thing, because for every vou shalt never, there's
going to be an exception where you're like, well, okay,
in that instance.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
What if that person shutting up is the thing that
keeps me safe, or keeps me protected, or it keeps
me from losing my shit? That to me, it is
the same as getting money. It's I need money to
buy groceres so I can eat. I need this chick
to shut up so that I don't kill anybody. To me,
it's of the same thing. You know, it's my space,
(30:33):
my time, my stuff.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
See I can understand that. I can understand that completely.
But here's the thing. There are some wickens that are
oh no, but you can't affect them. You can't affect
that person you like. For instance, I'm in business with
myself and like my friend Brenda, let's say right and
we decide that we're going to open a social media
marketing agency, and I want to make a spell to
(30:59):
get us to have a lot of money or like
a lot of clients, and this and that the perception
of those really like hardcore weakens that have that mentality
like no, you can't bend anybody's will. Then their idea
would be like, well, you have to ask Brenda if
that's okay, because it's her business too, so you would
be bending her will for her to get clients too
(31:19):
for them and you both get clients or like the
business does because you have to word it certain or
certain or you have to word it a certain way
that she don't bend her with. And I'm like, I'm
pretty sure she's okay with that. But like what if
Brenda happens to be a Christian and she's okay with
me doing my shit, but she's not okay if you know,
she gets she's like, I just don't want to have
anything to do with magic or spell work, then what
(31:40):
you know, she would probably say no. But at the
same time, if she said, you know, like would she
energetically accept that energy? But yeah, I'm pretty sure you
know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Like, well, and that's like in it taking that example,
by the same ethical code, you also have to make
sure that you ask Brenda before you advertise your social
media company in any precisely or talk to any friends
about it, because she might not want that business.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
It's another scenario. What if you go to a job interview,
right and you say, well, I'm gonna do a spell
so then my possible boss who's gonna interview me will
like me. Oh, but I might be bending his will
in doing that, so I don't know how I'm gonna
do that. So what's the difference between you doing that
and then you going to the job interview with like
(32:32):
your best outfit, your best suit, your best clothes, your
best smile, your best makeup, your best hairdoo. You know,
you go all out. Isn't that considered the same thing?
You're still bending their will because if you call just
like you really are, a dressed like how you really are,
you're gonna go on like jeans and a T shirt
and they're not going to hire you.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
But hey, you're being honest and you're not bending his will.
This ethical code only applies to spell work. It doesn't
any other actions that they take, Like they can go
ahead and sabotage people in real life and manipulate them
and yell at them and assault them verbally and emotionally,
and that's fine, but if there's a ritual involved, and
(33:10):
that's not okay.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
The Parerent League can be a dick in a Facebook
group and it's perfectly within the wick and read or
social media in general. I mean, because right in Twitter
and all those as well, you can just judge everyone mercilessly.
My great frustration with a is, for one, like, it
doesn't allow for nuance and context. And also they're being
very picky and choosing when they're applying their ethics.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Yeah, like ethics only apply to spell work, but they're
not apply to the rest, right exactly.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
There's this thing where you're in a group and knife
sometimes people want some kind of spell to get somebody back.
And so if I know a spell, I'm just gonna
type it out and be like, be on your merry way.
How fun with that? You know what I mean? Like,
no judgment. I don't know what the situation is. So
underneath my cool spell, there's going to be three hundred
comments for mostly Wiccans who are.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Like, are you sure you want to do that?
Speaker 4 (34:02):
You really shouldn't do that. You're bending people's will. He
cheated on you. Why would you want that guy like
get some self esteem?
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Just blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 4 (34:12):
And I'm always like, she didn't ask for your opinion.
She just that's her a spell, Like, yeah, we don't
know the situation. We only know the ten words that
she put down.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Like there maybe a lot of her and judging her
pretty harshly, like.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
And I think I think she can make a decision
on all her own. I mean, somebody asks, hey, I'm
so comfortable doing a hexting spell. Do you have something
so little at them all? Yeah, bool boring spell works
really well. And then underneath that, we're like three hundred
comments about how it's still hexting and how it's bad
and why would you.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Want to do that?
Speaker 4 (34:42):
Just go on your merry way, write it out, you know,
do a do a banishing ritual and be done with it. Yeah,
And like she didn't ask for a banishing ritual.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
It's kind of like the context of preaching absence over
safe hexting. You know that if they don't find it
in a loving community and they can't talk be people
if they trust about it, they're going to search Google
instead and find it on their own. You're not going
to stop them.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
And here's the other thing. Who says that everybody follows
the same law or the same ethics just because you're
a wicked and it says that you can't do so,
and so doesn't mean that a witch who is not
wickan doesn't mean that they can't curse people.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
People in Western society believes that there's one true reality
and one true God and one true religion and that
everyone who doesn't believe what they believe is wrong. That
kind of dogmatic there can only be one reality. I
know what it is, and you need me to tell
you what it is because you're obviously too infantile to
figure it out. Is very much a product of Western society,
i e. Christianization and colonization.
Speaker 4 (35:42):
That's the part that really really bothers me. These people
in these groups, and I'm talking about it again, but
the people in the groups, they're very much like, you
must not know what this spell does if you're asking
for it, and it's like no, maybe she just doesn't
have anybody to talk to you because she lives in
Minnesota and there's nobody around that does spell work. She
has a few books and this one Facebook group and
(36:03):
so she's trying her with all her might to like
get it right, and so she figures, hey, I'm in
this group, so somebody must know. And then she gets
preached out because you know, she must not know. And
it's like, even if she were to do the spell wrong,
and even if she fails at it, then that's still
a learning experience and the next time she's gonna do
it better.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
And that's kind of like how I feel about it.
Like preaching at them isn't going to stop them. They're
just going to find another way, right.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
It's like kids when their hormones are going crazy and
they want to have sex. You can tell them that
they can't have sex. They're gonna find a way to
do it. Might as well give them condom.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
That's what I mean by preaching abstinence a set of protection. Like, yeah,
at the very least, if you have a group that
is supportive in a community, when it all goes wrong,
like some people assume it will, they'll have the community
around them to help them figure out why it went
wrong and put it back together again.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Don't alien need the people that want to cast certain spells.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
I'm fiercely protective of our newer members of the community,
and I think shaming and brating and bullying them because
they ask a question is not the way to teach
or support or help them grow or learn. I think
it's kind of a dick move. Okay, it's a way
good way to chase people out of the community and
continue to make people think that you're, which is, are
terrible people. It's the dogmatic part of the wicked thing.
(37:25):
And I also think that like shoot rhyming rules like
that are really great, but they don't allow you to
have that deep thought about ethics and ethical situations, And
so it's just a convenient role you can pull out
whenever you feel uncomfortable, and it keeps you from doing
the deep thing? Should it?
Speaker 4 (37:45):
Witchcraft make you do the deep thinking? Because you're like, Okay,
who am I? What do I really want in my life?
What do I desire? How am I going to make
this happen in my life? How am I going to
manifest this?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Like?
Speaker 4 (37:54):
What is my code of ethics? Why do I shield
this way? Did somebody tell me this? Did somebody make
me think this? Or is this something that I actually
think myself? When I do witchcraft? These are the kinds
of things I think about when I want to do
a banishing spelt like what am I really banishing? Am
I banishing a thought? Am I banishing a feeling? Am
Am I just banishing a whole aspect in my life?
(38:14):
Am I banishing a person? Or am I banishing what
this person represents to me? Or am I banishing the
feelings that are triggered when I see them? For me? Anyway,
I go into that like deep place with myself and
I really have to like examine my shadow side, and
I have to examine my needs and desires and wants.
And that makes me feel very empowered because at any
given moment, I feel like at least have some awareness
(38:36):
of who I am and where I'm at my life
and why. And I don't think I would be able
to do that if I had to have all these rules.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Ethics is a complex topic because humans are complex beings
and so as we tend to do the thing where
we want to like quip quick rules like never do this,
always do that, as if it were black and white.
But there's those such thing in ethics.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
You know, it's our podcast, it's our opinions, and if
you have opinions, get a podcast, and you can send
it to us, or you can send hate mail or whatever.
But these are kinds of things. This is why we
made this podcast is because these kinds of things need
to be said and there's there's just too much of
the other stuff out there. Thank you for coming to
my ted talk.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
I feel good about that closing. I don't have an.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
Alrighty, then I can't friend they hate mail. If you're
one of the three people listening and you do like
what we have to say, and you you know you
like us, please make sure to follow us to give
us the thumbs up and hit that notification bow, and
don't forget to subscribe.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Thank you for listening to the MB's Alim podcast. For
show notes, go to www dot MBus dot com.
Speaker 4 (39:48):
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Speaker 3 (39:55):
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Speaker 7 (40:06):
That's www dot nvs alien dot com. Www dot n
v u s alien dot com and as always, see
you on the website.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
H
You are listening to the NVS Alien Podcast with your host,
Heather Woodward, an award winning psychic, supernatural author and lover
of all things true crime. On this show, we're going
to deep dive into topics so don't usually see the
light of day, the spooky, the weird, the macabre, the paranormal,
and of course aliens. Sit back, grab a cup of tea,
(00:24):
and let's get on with the show.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Hello. Everyone, Today we're talking about the Wick and Read
and how some people take it just a little bit
too far.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Let's establish what we're talking about when we're referring to
the Wick and Read, because in doing the research for this,
we have what is commonly referred to as the Wick
and Read, as established by Dori Valliante in nineteen sixty four,
which is just rhyming couplet. And then we also have
a poem that was written later titled The of the Wicca,
(01:01):
which is also oftentimes by a large number of Kevens
referred to as the Wick and Read, which it came
out in nineteen seventy five, which has a lot more
rules to it. So, in researching things and discovered, there
is some dispute about what is the wick and read itself.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
I don't know anything what the wickn read. I'm not
wicked at all. It's always that harm none. And then
they also with the times three things that drives me
crazy though, so they only two things in it. So
this is gonna be a fun conversation, right.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
And harm none, do what you will? The things come
back around to times three is usually referred to as
the rule of three in Facebook groups or just any forum.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Anytime you ask for a spell, especially anything that's to
do with texting, binding or anything that's getting a lover back,
people say that all the time. Are you sure you
want to do that because it comes back to you
three times?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Well, I always think of the harm none do what
you will, which is like, you're just not a lot
of hurt people whatsoever. Yeah, which is a very old,
tiny way of saying, do what you want, just don't
hurt anyone.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
For a good chunk of my first couple years of
my magical existence, I was a Wickan. I was a
sole practitioner at first, and then I think maybe the
five years later I joined a traditional coven. This is
what I didn't like about Wicca in particular. One there's
(02:28):
no definitive answer as to what is harm. None. Society
tells us what's wrong and what's right. You know what's
moral and what isn't. But at the same time, it's
your own moral judgment. So if you have like a
bunch of witches or wickens telling you, hey, that's wrong,
but it isn't wrong for you, does that still count?
(02:49):
What if I don't feel that I'm harming anyone when
I'm doing a particular spell, but for them it is
harming just because it is a spell that says you
know a particular word in it, or it has a
particular outcome that for them is wrong.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
I can spend any situation for any spell you cast
in a way that you're gonna helm someone exactly.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I've met wickens that have been like, hey, I have
a friend who's in the hospital. The doctors don't know
if they're going to be brain dead or not. They're
in a coma. Can we do a healing spell on him?
I remember having one particular person that Lumi said, wait, wait,
do you think that he would want us to heal him?
(03:30):
Because we can't go against his will because that would
be against the wick and read. That's like the baby
Hitler argument. What's the baby Hitler argument?
Speaker 3 (03:36):
If you had a chance to go back in time
and kill baby Hitler, would you do it now? If
you were a doctor in the time of Hitler and
Baby Hitler had a dire illness and you knew what
he was going to be come in the future, would
you save him.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yes, we don't know.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
What the future holds him. There could be a stucky
Hitler that's three times as bad as Hitler. The second
one about if he had an illness and you could
treat him or he could die. I would treat him
because it's my job as a doctor to heal. It's
not my job to judge. In action would not be
acceptable as a doctor. I would feel I didn't do
(04:12):
my due diligence if I were to let him die,
that's not my choice to make.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Knowing people he would have put in kill and Maine
and destroy.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
Hitler just didn't kill people. He was very much into
astrology and mysticism, and he has very much into witchgrat
A lot of the people that he worked with further
thor failed in science and technology, and there was a
lot of good that came out of Hitler. Even though
people don't want to talk about that part.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
Along the lines of the argument, the better the double
you know and double you don't. There's no way to
know that that technology wouldn't have evolve about him.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
I don't think that killing Hitler it was going to
change too much. I mean, there's Mussolini too, and there's
plenty other dictators out there that did purple things as well.
For me, it seems too black and white.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
The argument was when I was with my friends, are
we going against the this guy's will maybe he wants
to die, And they're like, I'm pretty sure he does it,
and she's like, okay, I just want to make sure
and that everybody agrees that we might be going against
his will and that might come back to haunt us.
Just to let you guys know, he actually woke up
(05:16):
two days later had no issues.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
I think that us as energetic beans, if he really
wanted to die, he would not take in on the
energy in the first place, Like exactly because you did
the spell doesn't mean that he has to adhere to that,
because his soul would have said, no, I want to
die next day on the spell.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
A spoilers, Do you guys remember Buffy the vampire Slayer
of the series. Yeah, yeah, and how they brought her back, and.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
I remember that part.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
I do remember some part of it. Yeah, she doesn't
have like a soul or she's not happy when she
comes back.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
She's not happy in heaven, and Heaven's kind of a
nice place. And they brought her back. He was super depressed.
And then she had that weird, like unhealthy relationship with Spike. Yes,
I it's a weird relationship. Is not healthy for obvious reasons.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
He was still evil vampire. He just liked her other
reasons too.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
I think it was such a weird, like how did
the last three seasons above the vampires?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Like what the fuck is going on?
Speaker 3 (06:13):
But yeah, yeah, but that's like the same kind of thing,
Like why would we bring him back if he was
potentially going to a better place and he was ready
to let go force him to be on this hellscape
when he had a way out.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I don't know if he was meant to die, how
much I would pray, no matter how much I would
cast spells. If he's meant to die, he will die.
You don't believe in check out points? What do you
mean check out points?
Speaker 3 (06:36):
You have the option, do you want to stay or
do you want to go?
Speaker 2 (06:39):
I think you can make that decision, but the path
to getting there that is already like written. You can't
get out of that. But to decide whether or not
you want to stay and survive it, that's up to you.
When it comes to like, oh, this is the day
that you almost die or you are going to die,
but it's today.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
If it's your time, with your time, there's nothing you
can do.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Could you believe that?
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Lie to me? Where you run into situations that you
have no people over where you, I then have the
option do you stare or do you go?
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Right?
Speaker 3 (07:11):
But you also said previously, if it's your time, it's
your time, and there's nothing you can do.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I meaning it's a time either to die and have
that experience that you get to that point where you
make that decision.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
It sounded before like you were saying like, if it's
your time to die, and then it's your time to
die and there's nothing you can do about it. You're
gonna die, Like maybe you can change how you die, but.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
You're still you can definitely change how you die. You can,
I mean obviously you can't be like, well, I'm thinking
a car crash. Oh it's a little too messy, you know.
It's not like that kind of change or decisions like
little destination.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
You dodge the lumber truck, but now you're gonna be
electrocated exactly like that.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
But you can decide at the end, like when you
get to that point whether or not you're gonna survive.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
It or not.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
But okay, then gotcha, plumpthing's gonna happen.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
You have to pay the choice. Yeah, right, okay, so
you're gonna confront death one way or another.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Right, thank you. That's what I was trying to say.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
This is where it gets chicky with the W I
can read though, because especially with spell work, even if
you bind somebody, if they don't want to be bound,
it's not really gonna work that well.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
I've never ran into that situation like, oh, you're doing
a binding on me. Thinks I'm just gonna relax. Now.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
There's a lot of people that are like that. They're
just really complicit.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, I've met people that are very like passive aggressive
and they're just like, oh whatever, and they just don't care.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
I would think that like binding was kind of an
extreme mever, but okay.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
It really depends on the person. If they have like
a very strong will, then yeah, they're gonna fight the binding,
whether it be like consciously or unconsciously. But if people
are like ink, what elms, it's not like it's really
affecting my life. I guess those people can get binded
really easily.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Binding wouldn't really be where you went with that.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
The thing is that they're complicit to it. The way
that I see it. When people are like that complicit
about a binding, their life is already shit that they're
just like, well, it's another shitty day, another shitty thing
in my life. It's not like it's gonna make it
any words, and it already is.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Not to say that we bind everybody all the time.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
You guys want all like white witchcraft. I'm binding right now.
That's a cool fois.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
They just don't know, or they don't care, or they
take in whatever energy is present. A lot of times
I'm like, oh, someone's doing some kind of spell work.
I gotta banish this shit. I'm just fully aware all
of people aren't like that. Love people are like, well, I'll.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Just let this energy in.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
We'll see what if I don't understand about the wick
in thereen does these are traices that we make, not
we can I practice who do. I'm kind of an
eclectic witch. I pulled from a lot of different places
and that's my choice. But I have done some texes,
I've done some negative spell works, and I always feel justified.
(09:44):
So I'm like, I don't really care if it comes
back at me three because I know it's not because
I have all my ducks in a row, and I'll
believe in that anyway.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
But your duck are solow in a row just in case,
just in case.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Right, I'm not one of the people that just does it,
like right out of the gate.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
I'm like, oh, I'm pissed. I'm gonna do it.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
No, I write it out. These are the reasons. There
are these reasons judged Bible. To me, do I see
any caveats in this where maybe I'm just being an
asshole right now? And if I am being an ouseol
right now? Am I okay with being an asshole to
the questions that I ask myself. If I feel like
there's no other way but this way to give the
(10:19):
energy back with you a bi ring spell or a hexing,
then I'm like, yeah, okay, I'm totally gonna do it.
And I feel like with Wika especially, you don't have
that leeway.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
What the spells do you do?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
You send them love and light and hope that a
good hug solves, let's pray, let's send healing spells, or
let's send them peace and love.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
And the way that I was taught when I was
a wicked, I always noticed that most of the spells
were very nonspecific on people. Let's say you want to
see a love spell. You could do a love spell,
but you could not specifically target a living person that
you knew. I want a person that looks like this,
and he looks a lot like Tom, but I'm not
(11:00):
specific way saying Tom and he looks just like him.
You know something, I'm gonna throw a picture of Tom
just to give you an idea of what I'm looking for.
The coven that I was in, it was a type
of tradition that you.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
Would expect that they would do a lot of crazy
spell work over the top, Like you would be like, bro,
I want to learn all these like really dark deep
secrets about Wi gu and blah blah blah and magic.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
And all that shit. And you get there and you're
just like, so, I can't cast any of these type
of spells, but I can word it a certain way
for then it doesn't harm none. And I soared a
kind of get the same results, like a Russian roulette
of what it is that I'm gonna get.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
But that sounds like really shitty spell work. The whole
point of spell work is to be focused with the
intension what about this or something better? I have this
in mind and I really would like this. But if
you want to throw some other stuff around, that very
right too.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
You can do that too. For instance, i'd say you
wanted to do a prosperity spell for like a business.
If you wanted to do a prosperity spell, you'd say like, oh,
I want more club customers. I want more customers to
come to the store. I want them to want to
come to the store. But you couldn't say I want
them to lust over the store. I want them to
want to be here all the time and buy everything.
In other words, you couldn't make it sticky and sweet.
(12:13):
That's the best I could describe it. They see it,
it's a bag, and they like it. They're cool. But
if they want to buy something only they want to,
you know kind of a thing. It's like get them
in the door, but don't make them buy anything. It
would be like that kind of spell. It wouldn't be
like they just have to they just like die and
get something from the store.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
It's very fastive aggressle spor So what about like freezer
spells or honey jars or stuff like that?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
And done spells, but not while I was wicked. When
I was doing those spells as a sole practitioner, I
wasn't thinking to myself, Oh, I'm doing something that's you know,
against the wick and read do what ye will harm none.
I didn't think that. I was like, oh, yeah, that's
within the parameters of the specifications. And then when I
joined the coven and I actually like had long ethical
(13:00):
conversations with the members in the coven, I was like, oh,
in that time that I was quote unquote naughty as
a Wickan, and now that I am not a Wickan
and I am being very naughty. I have not, as
far as I've seen personal experience, it's a threefold law
hit me. I've never had it.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
Coming all today Now that you've.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Said that, God like there's one and there's two, it's
I've never felt like, well, here goes all all, you know,
because I did this spell the other day. Shit, man,
now I'm getting it, and mind you have been doing
this for years. I think the reason I don't is
not just because I think it's It's not that I think, oh,
it's a little bullshit. I don't feel that I've done
(13:41):
anything wrong, and I think that plays a huge part
in karma of attraction thing. Yeah. Yeah, If you believe
that you did something wrong and that you should be
punished for it, then guess what, that's what you're going
to attract. And you're not going to stop paying that
law of a quote unquote attraction punishment for what you've
(14:03):
done quote unquote, You're not gonna stop paying for it
until you stop feeling guilty. That is why I think
sociopaths and psychopaths do so fucking well in life. They
don't feel guilt, They feel entitled to it. That energy
that karma doesn't get them. Before I do a spell,
I'm always like, would I hate me if I was
the person who if somebody did this spell to me? No,
(14:25):
I wouldn't hate me. Okay, then we're gonna do this spell.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
I'm like, does this bitch really need to shut up? Yes,
yes she does, Yes she does. Spell you know what
I mean. But I'm a little barer.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Blasphemish. I didn't mean it to be that blasphemish.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
I think this is where it gets tricky for me,
is because I'm not really a big.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Believer of karma.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
I mean, like, I believe in karma, but not only
most people believe in karma. I don't think it's like, oh,
you do this and this thing automatically happens.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
It's not how it or closet the Q like just
queue it up. You're right, I.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Think it's a little more rad to degenerate. We go
by percentages here. I know every action has a reaction.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Is that what it is? Evil and opposite reaction.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
Right, But there's plenty of those happening simultaneously, So I
think we go by averages.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Part of the chorus, you're pretty decent, so when average,
your life should be pretty decent.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
Right exactly, Because you're right, I'm sort of chaotic neutral.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
That is so d and D right there for us.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
But it's that's how I feel about it. So when
I see people in groups saying, oh if you're your
karma's coming Dutch Us times three. I'm like, well, you
don't know what my random generator looks like, go fuck yourself.
I have broccoli today.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I'm good.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
I'm one of those really crazy pantheist types where I'm
just like, whatever system you sign up for is the
one that's gonna work for you. So if you want
the rule of three, then that's what you get. I'm
working on the whole, like the gods and the planet
and the spirits and the critters, we all just want
to work together.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
You could go ahead and send they hate mail directly
to me, but as a whole, I just feel like
Wick is very judgy if we're going.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
To go there, I feel like it's the entry level
transitionary phase between Christianity and Paganisms.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
That yeah, I always just kind of felt like it
was Fretianity with a skirt on.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I'm not saying that Wick is a bad thing. It's
it's not a bad religion. It's an okay religion.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
I think it very into harming people when they.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Do yes sights they do they do. I've had a
bad experience with that as well. There was this girl
who was like, oh, how do I get my boyfriend
to not cheat on me? And I had not read
all the comments and really just put down freedom some
of your menstrual blood, or take his shoes, his sandals
proferably because you might not miss them, and nail them
(16:45):
to the structure of the house that you share with him,
or your house so then he never leaves. And there's
this one girl who literally just went ape shit on me.
Oh this one me commenting that, and I was like,
what the fuck, Like what did I do? And mind you,
this is a group where you have a lot of
(17:05):
people that are not at all wickans. These are people
that are like, do crazy spells that make you go like,
I never want to upset you ever, just want to
let you know you're cool, and we're cool, right, We're cool.
I never want to even bat my eyes at you.
It's that kind of spell work that they do in
this pretty particular group. And that's why I never comment,
(17:27):
because I'm like, oh, I don't know about them, Let
me not ruffle any feathers. And then this one girl
is just like, how could you you know it's not
really her boyfriend and blah blah blah, and supposedly in
the comments, she admitted that this guy wasn't her boyfriend,
it was just a guy that she liked, that she
wanted him to be attracted to her. And I was like,
(17:49):
that still works. What I told is it would still
work for the situation SN so she can do that
the girl.
Speaker 6 (17:55):
And he's like, because what I'm assuming she was a
wicked or she wasn't a wicked, but she still maybe
like was still in that Wickan read I'm not comfortable
with not being a wicked just yet.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
But I don't want to be a wicked.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Because you know, even though they say, like you know
and a hard nun, do what you will, I mean,
that's like a very definitive statement. And if you read
the people writing who wrote that statement, Gardner and Douran
Valiente and Raymond Buckland, who started that tradition of wicca
in the United States, they're like, Nope, that's explicit. That's
exactly what that means. There's no wiggle room and at
(18:32):
harm none none meaning zero, do what you want. But
you know a lot of wickens apply that like only
to spell work. So calling people a name and shooting
them out over nothing that doesn't count because it's not magic,
but like, this is an ethical code. Man.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Funny enough that you mentioned that, but in the coven
that I was in, I asked, why do they put
that in the Wicked read when there's other traditions that
you know, you soon cast whatever the heck you want,
as long as it's part of a spell that is
considered part of that tradition, you know. And they were like, oh,
because Gerald Garner was noticing that the priestesses that he
(19:08):
had initiated quote unquote, this is like what they said
to me. I am not saying that this is fact,
not necessarily that it's the story exactly that they were
being very caddy and casting spells on each other because
they wanted to get his favor and he didn't like that,
(19:29):
and he didn't like the cadding nests supposedly, and because
of that he put that in wick up.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
That's cute that like big Daddy Gardner had to keep
his girls in life.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, which is very misogynistic, I know, are gonna say,
very very misogynistic, very fair.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Yeah, stereotypes.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
I'm yeah. And actually, when when I was told that,
and I was like, so what so what if they
were like, that doesn't mean that we have to be
treated like it for little kids who can't cast certain
spells because God forbid, if Grandpa Gardner doesn't like her
shit or doesn't like our attitude the story that you
(20:13):
just told us. Yeah, it feels very the opposite of
why I got into witchcraft. I got into witchcraft because
I was raised Baptist and it's very very like a
lot of rules, and it's very misogynistic and is there
everybody in their place, and there's things you can't do
and things you can't do.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
And for me, witchcraft was this.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Place where I could explore, I could express, I could
do my own thing, and I could have my own
thoughts about it, and I could use my own judgment
and use my own power to get what I want,
to get what I need, and it didn't matter if
I wanted it or needed it.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
I can still get it.
Speaker 4 (20:49):
This whole thing about well, if you don't need it,
then then why would you ask for it?
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Well, bitch, because I want it.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
For me.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Spellcasting is very much about my rules, bitch. This whole
idea of someone telling me what to do is kind
of the antithesis of what I'm about. And I didn't
do well in Baptist Christianity, and then I saw this
construct of Wicka. Those trials too similar. And now I
(21:16):
got Judgie bitch is telling me what to do. Judge patriarch,
you telling me what to do. Now I just got
judge bitches telling you what to do. And I'm like,
I don't know which is worse. Who're all validated because
they got the word from Gardner.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Right he was a man.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
The stuff that I see on Facebook, the stuff I
see on YouTube, the stuff I see elsewhere, it does
have that like fire and brimstone feel, but just the
spell cast version.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
And that's my feeling too, is like we're going to
take the Christian deity and give him a gender swamp,
and then we're going to add some magic to it,
and then add some magic back to it.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
I guess we're both because it used to be a lot.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Of magic in Christianity back in the day. I don't know,
it was too quol to the stuff I was already
not interested in.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Most of the people that I know that I met
while I was wicked are no longer wicked. They've either
moved away from spirituality or like Wicca and woodcraft in general,
or the practice whodoo or like a darker form of
magic or just something a little bit more what what
would you would consider to be more intense magically and
(22:26):
not so pretty and aesthetically pleasing. See, I think it's
the word of lucky, the far the.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
What fluffy, fluffy?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yeah, I'm trying not to say fluffy. I find fluffy
to be like rude. Sometimes it does apply and sometimes
it doesn't. For me, it's like an unnecessary bad word.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
Fluffy.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
I like Wu, I like woo.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
I'm perfectly fine with woo woo or woo. I don't love.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Fluffy because my nickname is fluffy, because because people think
I'm so lovely light and.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Then I'm all out, you know me, like you're not
You're not love oh Iri.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
The way we feel about words is a funny thing.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
It is.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
But weren't you saying CHARLVI that that you feel like
wicka is kind of a it's like that inter what
was the word?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
I don't even like comediary step that's intermediation.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yeah, yeah, between monotheistic religions and meganism kind of like
a good way to ease your way in if yeah, yeah, yeah,
you know, it's a it's a. It's a half step.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
The thing about Wika that makes it for most people,
not all people, but for most people, it makes it enticing.
It's because you get all the cool witchy stuff with
or at least you think you do, without any of
the you're going to hell or you're evil or you're
you know, depending on what religion you come from originally,
(23:55):
if you had any, it's sort of like that easy
sort of like, you're not going to hell, you're not evil.
You know, we're shipping the devil hate.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
We're not bad. We're all good and moral and we're
doing the same things. We just have a different goddess.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Yeah, we're just trying to save the world with our
love of witchcraft and the goddess and blah blah blah.
For the time that I was wick and I felt
for a hook line and sinker, I was like, oh
my god, is awesome.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
They're a good way for people to ease into New
Age spiritual community without having to dive in deep.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Okay, you know, it's a good introduction. Yeah, and some
people stay in wick up because that's where they feel
the most comfortable. That is okay if you're not the
type of person that you want to do something more
than just like protective spells or prosperity spell or like
happy spells and all that stuff. That's okay. I know
I'm not saying I'm not saying that Wicka sucks or
(24:47):
anything like that, or if it's bad or anything. I'm
I'm more of along the lines of this is my experience,
and this is how I feel about it now. But me,
if it's if it's your bag, it's your bag, and
you should be proud of it, you should okay with it.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
I don't know all the Wickens I've encountered. Most of them, okay,
seventy thirty have been mean.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
In every religion. It doesn't even matter if it's Wicka.
It's like every religion. You're gonna find those freaking purest
elite mentality in a religion or in a group setting,
you're gonna find it.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Seems more in the wakened community.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
Yes, yes, it is more like love and lighters light
workers mm hmm, and Wicca seemed to be the biggest
assholes on the planet. I don't not know, Like, if
you're love and light and you're supposed to be good,
how come you're the meanest assholes. I don't get it.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
You know, when I was in the process of going
from Wicca to where I am now, where I was
in that middle ground that I wasn't sure if I
wanted to hext someone or not that I've ever have
I ever had? Oh, I don't even remember if I
hexed anybody. We gotta think about that. That's how much
I really just I'm not so concerned about it like
I was when I was wicked that I'm just like,
(25:58):
have I ever had some I kind of think about that?
Was that what that I do last week? Yet like
it's one of both this kind of things. I was
still not comfortable with doing certain spells that I am now.
And what really made me go, Okay, yeah, I'm done,
We're good. I think I'm gonna be fine doing these
tuff of spells. I think I'm gonna be fine going
in the direction that I feel almost comfortable.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
You know what.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
It was funny enough, I was getting a reiki treatment
and it was great. It was like, oh my god,
the Ricky treatment was great. I have nothing wrong with
that reiki treatment and I love rape. By the way,
after a reiki session, namely the Reiki Master gives you
like a low down of what they feel in your
energy and blah blah blah blah. He said something along
the lines of because he knew that I was a witch,
(26:41):
and I didn't mention that I was weak in or
not with it. I just said I do witchcraft. That's
all I said to him. And he's like, oh, just
to let you know, you know, witchcraft is not good.
And mind you, this is a guy who's not a Christian,
he's not religious in that way. He's a complete light worker.
And he gave me this sort of like Christian sort
(27:02):
of look, like the way that Christians look at me
when I tell them that I'm a witch and they
give me like, that's sweety. Let me talk to you
about Jesus, because you don't know what you're doing.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Let me man explain you.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah. And I was just like, ah, thank you for
the session. I was really enlightening. Thank you very much.
I'll talk to you later bye. And I left and
I was just like, yeah, this is total bullshit. I'm
not doing this anymore. If I even get it in
the spiritual community, that same sort of looking down on
me because I'm not you know, all love and lighten
(27:35):
pretty flowers and on shit. Then I don't want to
be part of that community either. I need to figure
out my own shit my way and do it my
way and not give a shit about anybody else.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
A lot of new Agers are still very much love
and light I know because you know, I grew up
in the New Age community. My mom was a metaphysician
and a witch. I am a witch, which is a
different thing, and I very much grew up with the
stigma in the community that like that is a line.
We don't puss. You can do anything you want, but
once you get to the point where we're talking about
(28:07):
like spells, then you fucked up. Isn't the intent? No, right?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Because like you can do you can I.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Think it shield around you, or you could cast a circle.
It's the same intent, right, But when you playing with
dark forces and the other one's fine, there's no way
you could ever hurt yourself.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
That's the word.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
That's the connotation in the community, not that those things
are actually true, because you can absolutely hurt yourself just energy.
It's fine, but you know, but that's the way the
community treats it. Like once you cross this line into
doing actual spell work, playing with dark forces.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Kind of know, I so, but people think about who
do like any kind of root work or earth magic.
It's okay to do a prosperity spell, or it's okay
to do air quotes white spell, but if you go
anywhere in the out of the white light area, then
it's automatically bad. Even I feel like abundant spell or
prester arity spells. I mean, I know that that's like
(29:03):
air quotes light magic, but it's very self. They're kind
of the bending.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Other thing is also the mindset.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
Like you're spending energy to your will.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Though that is all.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Energy work and magic is like that's the definition of right,
all of it like protection, healing, blessings rare, all of
it is bending energy to your will.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
Right, So if i'm if I want that person to
shut up, or if I want money, what's the difference.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Right?
Speaker 3 (29:34):
So, I know a lot of people draw the line
at like affecting other people's free will or whatever, but
like I feel like, especially a lot of people you know,
and in these podcasts you've heard me talk a lot
like growing up and dealing with different groups and communities
and kind of getting shunned here and there and kicked
out of various communities over and over and over again.
(29:54):
So I do kind of have a chip on my shoulder.
E FIS is a sticky murking, and you can't just
throw a followed rule that is like, vouch shalt never
do this thing, because for every vou shalt never, there's
going to be an exception where you're like, well, okay,
in that instance.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
What if that person shutting up is the thing that
keeps me safe, or keeps me protected, or it keeps
me from losing my shit? That to me, it is
the same as getting money. It's I need money to
buy groceres so I can eat. I need this chick
to shut up so that I don't kill anybody. To me,
it's of the same thing. You know, it's my space,
(30:33):
my time, my stuff.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
See I can understand that. I can understand that completely.
But here's the thing. There are some wickens that are
oh no, but you can't affect them. You can't affect
that person you like. For instance, I'm in business with
myself and like my friend Brenda, let's say right and
we decide that we're going to open a social media
marketing agency, and I want to make a spell to
(30:59):
get us to have a lot of money or like
a lot of clients, and this and that the perception
of those really like hardcore weakens that have that mentality
like no, you can't bend anybody's will. Then their idea
would be like, well, you have to ask Brenda if
that's okay, because it's her business too, so you would
be bending her will for her to get clients too
(31:19):
for them and you both get clients or like the
business does because you have to word it certain or
certain or you have to word it a certain way
that she don't bend her with. And I'm like, I'm
pretty sure she's okay with that. But like what if
Brenda happens to be a Christian and she's okay with
me doing my shit, but she's not okay if you know,
she gets she's like, I just don't want to have
anything to do with magic or spell work, then what
(31:40):
you know, she would probably say no. But at the
same time, if she said, you know, like would she
energetically accept that energy? But yeah, I'm pretty sure you
know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Like, well, and that's like in it taking that example,
by the same ethical code, you also have to make
sure that you ask Brenda before you advertise your social
media company in any precisely or talk to any friends
about it, because she might not want that business.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
It's another scenario. What if you go to a job interview,
right and you say, well, I'm gonna do a spell
so then my possible boss who's gonna interview me will
like me. Oh, but I might be bending his will
in doing that, so I don't know how I'm gonna
do that. So what's the difference between you doing that
and then you going to the job interview with like
(32:32):
your best outfit, your best suit, your best clothes, your
best smile, your best makeup, your best hairdoo. You know,
you go all out. Isn't that considered the same thing?
You're still bending their will because if you call just
like you really are, a dressed like how you really are,
you're gonna go on like jeans and a T shirt
and they're not going to hire you.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
But hey, you're being honest and you're not bending his will.
This ethical code only applies to spell work. It doesn't
any other actions that they take, Like they can go
ahead and sabotage people in real life and manipulate them
and yell at them and assault them verbally and emotionally,
and that's fine, but if there's a ritual involved, and
(33:10):
that's not okay.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
The Parerent League can be a dick in a Facebook
group and it's perfectly within the wick and read or
social media in general. I mean, because right in Twitter
and all those as well, you can just judge everyone mercilessly.
My great frustration with a is, for one, like, it
doesn't allow for nuance and context. And also they're being
very picky and choosing when they're applying their ethics.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Yeah, like ethics only apply to spell work, but they're
not apply to the rest, right exactly.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
There's this thing where you're in a group and knife
sometimes people want some kind of spell to get somebody back.
And so if I know a spell, I'm just gonna
type it out and be like, be on your merry way.
How fun with that? You know what I mean? Like,
no judgment. I don't know what the situation is. So
underneath my cool spell, there's going to be three hundred
comments for mostly Wiccans who are.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Like, are you sure you want to do that?
Speaker 4 (34:02):
You really shouldn't do that. You're bending people's will. He
cheated on you. Why would you want that guy like
get some self esteem?
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Just blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 4 (34:12):
And I'm always like, she didn't ask for your opinion.
She just that's her a spell, Like, yeah, we don't
know the situation. We only know the ten words that
she put down.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Like there maybe a lot of her and judging her
pretty harshly, like.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
And I think I think she can make a decision
on all her own. I mean, somebody asks, hey, I'm
so comfortable doing a hexting spell. Do you have something
so little at them all? Yeah, bool boring spell works
really well. And then underneath that, we're like three hundred
comments about how it's still hexting and how it's bad
and why would you.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
Want to do that?
Speaker 4 (34:42):
Just go on your merry way, write it out, you know,
do a do a banishing ritual and be done with it. Yeah,
And like she didn't ask for a banishing ritual.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
It's kind of like the context of preaching absence over
safe hexting. You know that if they don't find it
in a loving community and they can't talk be people
if they trust about it, they're going to search Google
instead and find it on their own. You're not going
to stop them.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
And here's the other thing. Who says that everybody follows
the same law or the same ethics just because you're
a wicked and it says that you can't do so,
and so doesn't mean that a witch who is not
wickan doesn't mean that they can't curse people.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
People in Western society believes that there's one true reality
and one true God and one true religion and that
everyone who doesn't believe what they believe is wrong. That
kind of dogmatic there can only be one reality. I
know what it is, and you need me to tell
you what it is because you're obviously too infantile to
figure it out. Is very much a product of Western society,
i e. Christianization and colonization.
Speaker 4 (35:42):
That's the part that really really bothers me. These people
in these groups, and I'm talking about it again, but
the people in the groups, they're very much like, you
must not know what this spell does if you're asking
for it, and it's like no, maybe she just doesn't
have anybody to talk to you because she lives in
Minnesota and there's nobody around that does spell work. She
has a few books and this one Facebook group and
(36:03):
so she's trying her with all her might to like
get it right, and so she figures, hey, I'm in
this group, so somebody must know. And then she gets
preached out because you know, she must not know. And
it's like, even if she were to do the spell wrong,
and even if she fails at it, then that's still
a learning experience and the next time she's gonna do
it better.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
And that's kind of like how I feel about it.
Like preaching at them isn't going to stop them. They're
just going to find another way, right.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
It's like kids when their hormones are going crazy and
they want to have sex. You can tell them that
they can't have sex. They're gonna find a way to
do it. Might as well give them condom.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
That's what I mean by preaching abstinence a set of protection. Like, yeah,
at the very least, if you have a group that
is supportive in a community, when it all goes wrong,
like some people assume it will, they'll have the community
around them to help them figure out why it went
wrong and put it back together again.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Don't alien need the people that want to cast certain spells.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
I'm fiercely protective of our newer members of the community,
and I think shaming and brating and bullying them because
they ask a question is not the way to teach
or support or help them grow or learn. I think
it's kind of a dick move. Okay, it's a way
good way to chase people out of the community and
continue to make people think that you're, which is, are
terrible people. It's the dogmatic part of the wicked thing.
(37:25):
And I also think that like shoot rhyming rules like
that are really great, but they don't allow you to
have that deep thought about ethics and ethical situations, And
so it's just a convenient role you can pull out
whenever you feel uncomfortable, and it keeps you from doing
the deep thing? Should it?
Speaker 4 (37:45):
Witchcraft make you do the deep thinking? Because you're like, Okay,
who am I? What do I really want in my life?
What do I desire? How am I going to make
this happen in my life? How am I going to
manifest this?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Like?
Speaker 4 (37:54):
What is my code of ethics? Why do I shield
this way? Did somebody tell me this? Did somebody make
me think this? Or is this something that I actually
think myself? When I do witchcraft? These are the kinds
of things I think about when I want to do
a banishing spelt like what am I really banishing? Am
I banishing a thought? Am I banishing a feeling? Am
Am I just banishing a whole aspect in my life?
(38:14):
Am I banishing a person? Or am I banishing what
this person represents to me? Or am I banishing the
feelings that are triggered when I see them? For me? Anyway,
I go into that like deep place with myself and
I really have to like examine my shadow side, and
I have to examine my needs and desires and wants.
And that makes me feel very empowered because at any
given moment, I feel like at least have some awareness
(38:36):
of who I am and where I'm at my life
and why. And I don't think I would be able
to do that if I had to have all these rules.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Ethics is a complex topic because humans are complex beings
and so as we tend to do the thing where
we want to like quip quick rules like never do this,
always do that, as if it were black and white.
But there's those such thing in ethics.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
You know, it's our podcast, it's our opinions, and if
you have opinions, get a podcast, and you can send
it to us, or you can send hate mail or whatever.
But these are kinds of things. This is why we
made this podcast is because these kinds of things need
to be said and there's there's just too much of
the other stuff out there. Thank you for coming to
my ted talk.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
I feel good about that closing. I don't have an.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
Alrighty, then I can't friend they hate mail. If you're
one of the three people listening and you do like
what we have to say, and you you know you
like us, please make sure to follow us to give
us the thumbs up and hit that notification bow, and
don't forget to subscribe.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Thank you for listening to the MB's Alim podcast. For
show notes, go to www dot MBus dot com.
Speaker 4 (39:48):
If you want more of the podcast and you like
what we're doing, to consider joining our Patreon.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
You get the episodes quicker than everybody else. They are
at FIRS every pace for production costs and it gives
you more content.
Speaker 7 (40:06):
That's www dot nvs alien dot com. Www dot n
v u s alien dot com and as always, see
you on the website.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
H
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