Mormon Occult Secrets EXPOSED: Heretic, Gnosticism & the Temple Mystery w/ Ryan Springer!

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
What if the rituals inside Mormon temples were hiding ancient esoteric secrets?

(00:04):
On today's episode of Occult Simulism and Pop Culture, we're diving into the wild overlap
between LDS traditions and the dark symbolism in the film Heretic. I'm joined by Ryan
Springer, our researcher with deep roots into Mormonism and the occult. And we're going to unpack
Freemasonry Nosticism's sacred spaces and even Aleister Crowley. You won't believe what the
magic on the where it might actually represent. Stay tuned! That's right we got a special guest today.

(00:32):
One of many, one of many special guests that we bring onto this show and he's got the background
to justify all of the interests that we're going to discuss today. It's going to be
packed full of information you're going to love. We're going to talk about Ryan's journey going from
LDS Mormon to the occult and then back themes of the Western esotericism and Nosticism.

(00:53):
You can find embedded into the film Heretic as well as Joseph Smith's transformative journey
which is found baked into the LDS temple and down with ceremonies. We're going to talk about
sacred spaces, the human power structures, what goes on behind the veil. You're going to find out
today here on Occult Simulism and Pop Culture. So without further ado we're going to get into this

(01:13):
interview and also while I'm talking to you there's a video version of the show and as you know
massive drama with the video version of the show and as of for this particular episode I'm going to
release the video version of the show at the same time that I released the audio version on the
free feed. So by all means please follow along because he's going to bring up a couple images as we

(01:36):
discuss. You can find I'm putting links in the show notes. I've got three options for free feed videos.
All right. I'm on YouTube at Occult Simulism as the channel name. I'm on rumble at Occult Simulism
and then also on Spotify just on my podcast you'll be able to find the video version of the show
when you're watching the audio version. It's hard to explain but you're on Spotify you already know.

(01:58):
So there's three options there whichever one you prefer. Check them out. Okay.
Today we've got a very special guest. He's a friend of mine. He makes up half of my beloved
Utah Twin Peaks crew. The iconic team double-r diner but more importantly he's a man who studied the
history of the LDS faith as well as the occult so who would be a more perfect guest to break down.
The symbolism of this Hugh Grant film Heretic than today's very special guest Ryan Springer welcome

(02:23):
to Occult Simulism and pop culture Ryan. Thank you Isaac. Great to be here. Yeah man this is great.
I'm I'm super excited to have you break down because I think I think that this film Heretic it
is a genius way of embedding a lot of gnostic and occult ideas into a movie and you've got
this explanation that I think people need to hear because basically you wrote up a piece that's

(02:49):
going to be published later on this year in dialogue a journal of Mormon studies but I think
where we should start is letting people know your background because you're not
you know I'm just a guy who from the outside looking in at the occult and LDS and this and that and the
other but you've got firsthand experience with these topics and life experiences so if you don't

(03:13):
mind maybe take five, ten minutes and kind of walk the audience through who you are in your journey
of spirituality and how you kind of got to the point where you are today. Sure man that's a it's a
funny journey um yeah I grew up in Salt Lake City Utah so near it Utah transplant but as everybody

(03:34):
knows the LDS church the Mormon religion is pretty big here so I was born into a Mormon family and raised
and I went on a mission I went to the West Indies in the 90s and what a mission is for people that
don't know is what 19 or 20 year old goes out for two years and proselytizes for the church and

(03:56):
spreads the gospel and you know spreads the good news of the restoration so I did that for two
years came home I went to school at the University of Utah and then went to grad school at BYU.
BYU is a Mormon-owned university and I loved all of these experience all this time I was you know

(04:16):
a faithful attending churchgoer and I started reading some you know history and studying church and
I was a temple prep teacher and I'm getting into the symbolism of the LDS temple and kind of had what
is known as a faith crisis or called a faith crisis just stuff started in adding up and some of the

(04:39):
historical claims of the church or just that Jesus doesn't really make sense and it was a hard
thing for me because I had grown up with that being you know the scaffolding of my reality and so as I
became disillusioned that that scaffolding fell apart and I I really wandered and didn't know what to do
I interestingly I picked up you know if I decided if the Mormon church wasn't through then nothing was

(05:03):
and kind of approached a secular philosophy I got into Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens this
is a pretty common archetype for a lot of Mormons I think got disillusioned became an atheist but was
missing a spiritual component to my life and so I started trying to get into Buddhism and studying

(05:25):
that and that opened my mind up to a lot of things most importantly meditation practice I that's a
big part of Buddhism I found out is sitting and meditating and I wasn't very good at
stealing my monkey mind so that was a good discipline for me to learn through some other things some

(05:46):
ups and downs it became acquainted with a meditation technique called mind body bridging by Stanley
Block he kind of advocates for it and started doing a little bit of that coupled with other things
and but but was still you know pretty spiritually dark and didn't have what I would call a religious
belief or a faith we still fairly militantly atheist and would would tell you that I was at a certain

(06:15):
point along the way I had what I can only describe as a spiritual experience and it kind of
I'll spare you the details of all of that but it was significant enough that I thought okay wait a
minute maybe this secular material is worldview that I've been clinging to isn't quite right maybe
there is something else out there and if there is what is that and so I started up this I'm just

(06:39):
kind of an obsessive-dork and I started this timeline and I started you know tracing world
religions and philosophies kind of trying to figure out where things came from and along the way I
got introduced to a lot of ideas and one of which was Kabbalah and I was like what do you do it this
sounds really cool but what do you do with this so do I need to go become Jewish and rabbi or something

(07:01):
or what do I do with it and you know through studying that that got me into Western esotericism and
just kind of a broad expansive term for just about anything you know sincretic I meant so this
that's that became kind of part of my life and interestingly enough the more that I got into

(07:24):
you know what we'd call the occult or esotericism or something like that I started noticing a lot
of correspondences and I was like this is this is familiar it's it's kind of funny I had I had
boxed up all of my Mormon books and really kind of closed the chapter on my on that part of my life

(07:44):
and it was reading Alistair Crowley of all things I was reading the book of the law
not because I'm a fellow might or anything like that but I was studying Kabbalah and you can't
as you study Western Kabbalah I would keep bumping up against this Alistair Crowley dude and I'm like
you know I knew the aziaz born song I knew the great beast stuff but not much more of that and I was

(08:06):
a little bit scared of him so I was unwilling to read it and finally I broke down and I popped up in
the book of the law and I started reading it and it was almost like this familiar voice and I
thought this sounds really familiar and so I went and I've got it around here I pulled out my
it's called the Pearl of Great Price it's a Mormon scripture there's a book of Abraham in it and

(08:29):
I started reading some of the verses in that and reading some of the verses in the book of the law
and I actually read some of them out loud in my wife and I was like can you tell which ones which
and she couldn't they were very familiar and like I said that weird voice in the back of my head
kind of it rang with familiarity so I ran down that route a whole little bit and the deeper I got

(08:49):
the more and more correspondences I would find now a lot of these admittedly are completely
speculative and I don't know if there's a basis to them or not but there started to be enough things
that would you know as I followed this strand through the rabbit hole I thought there's there's
a connection here and um yeah because Crowley he admired Joseph Smith right I mean so maybe that

(09:12):
makes sense if there's a little similarity I like game recognizes game that's kind of what I thought
now I don't know so Crowley um there's a couple of blurbs that he has in his essays where he talks
about Joseph Smith being an admirable character for rising from grossest stock or something like that
in paraphrasing and the really interesting one is in moonchild which is his novella you know it's

(09:38):
cyral gray who's kind of a a stand-in for Crowley himself belongs to this white lodge of magicians
and they're fighting a black lodge of magicians which is sweet twin peaks origins but in the the
story of it is is the creation of this spell through a sex magic ritual you create this moon child

(09:58):
or homunculus um an emanation of divine origin that's something more than just the magic of creation
and to get into this state to produce the moonchild the the partner um her name is Iliel in the book
and she has this vision and I might have a slide in here that the quote said that she has this this

(10:20):
very distinct vision about Joseph Smith and um so there have been some articles written um
I'll m ocemo yatra v gene I'm gonna screw that name up land zones the the connections are out there
so it wasn't too spacey but yeah Crowley definitely was aware of Joseph Smith um H. P. Blavatsky came over
when she was going through the u.s she tried to track him down in navu um so there's ended up coming

(10:46):
to Salt Lake there's a whole little story there but yeah there was enough chords I was like okay I'm
not completely crazy I'm not off the right track other people have noticed these correspondences and
so I just you know I started writing them down and putting them all together and um it it really has
you know weird circular way it's you know I love Joseph Smith I'll study this stuff all day long

(11:09):
and um you know how to real fondness for Mormonism I'm not real active but if I were to go to church on
Sunday I'd go to my local ward and so that's kind of where I'm out. Hmm interesting so when you watch uh
and and let me clarify for the audience we're gonna talk about this film heretic today it came on 2024
Hugh Grant and it uh we're gonna plot spoil today so if you haven't seen it hi there recommending it's

(11:34):
kind of a horror thriller kind of thing uh very good movie but we're gonna assume that the audience
has heard it and I'm gonna give you the plot spoiler warning right now I'm gonna walk you I'm gonna
I'm gonna give this sort of like 30 second version of what this movie is for people who are like I'm
not gonna ever watch this movie I don't care what's it about uh two Mormon missionaries they go to

(11:56):
Boulder Colorado and they're going door to door they go to mr. Reed which is the guy played by Hugh
Grant they go to his door and he sort of lures them in does a bunch of manipulative deception
slash initiatory rights with these two and uh some of it gets really dark some of it gets kind of
scary and spooky but he goes on this sort of journey with them where he's trying to indoctrinate them

(12:23):
into his worldview or it's a deception manipulation that he's doing to these girls for other reasons
and that's kind of what we're gonna talk about is what he was what mr. Reed was talking about what
his ideas were and what was the real point of this movie uh because it you know ends in total chaos of

(12:44):
course as you would expect of a movie like this uh but it laid out a lot of interesting connections with
the LDS faith obviously because these are LDS missionaries and it talks about a variety of things in
the movie such as a magic underwear and we got a lot of gnostic themes but i'm gonna let i'm gonna let

(13:05):
Ryan explain what's going on with this movie but the i read part of your um i don't know what you
would call essay or journal entry perhaps whatever yeah article something yeah i read part of your article
and is it fair to say that the point you're trying to make here is that heretic as well as

(13:30):
LDS ceremonies like the endowment ceremony done at the temple which full disclosure i'm not LDS
audience i'm not LDS i don't i've never been in the temple i don't know what the ceremonies are but
is it fair to say you're comparing heretic with LDS various ceremonies or rituals and saying like
hey there's these common themes that we find in western esotericism,

(13:55):
gnosticism and those kinds of things like that was kind of my takeaway from your from your article
yeah i think that was what i really liked about the movie is it it's it's it's it's
it's syncretic it brings together all of these things and on on one level you think you understand it
and then you it's got symbolic representations and and geometric forms and things like that

(14:18):
that really do evoke what i think the essence of symbols are supposed to do and what characters
are supposed to do is unlock hidden meaning and that's one of the things that's a you know very common
within that you know it's secret societies and and the occult it's all hidden there are layers
and layers and layers of meaning and the more you understand the what the different symbols

(14:42):
represent and and what those correspondences are then you're able to unlock or to translate the
meaning and that's um i think that's the point of it is that all of these strands whether you're
talking about free mason temple ceremonies or you're talking about um you know oto golden dawn

(15:03):
temple ceremonies or you're talking about mormon temple ceremonies or you're talking about the
experience of these two missionaries as they go through mr. reeds house there's this there's this
progression there's this ritualistic component to it and there are a lot of parallels and we'll
go into it a little bit more but the the film heretic because as the sister missionaries progress

(15:25):
through these series of rooms that struck a chord with me because in the lbs temple that's what you
do is you you go in and you progress through a series of rooms and in the lbs temple it mirrors
a an ascent journey well actually a descent and then an ascent journey and that has a lot of
parallels in nostic literature um and you know some of the texts that we'll talk about so the inversion

(15:48):
of of the missionaries you know going in leaving the world coming in and descending into this abyss
and then at least one of them finding an escape um that's the inversion of the lbs progression
through these rooms where we fall from a state of grace and then we're able to return and
progress to divinity so the the parallels were there and then there are so many kind of key symbolic

(16:11):
cues that are that are sort of specific um so it's a that's a really cool movie the blends
and and troughs together a lot of these different strands and and for me I love it because it pulls in
various aspects of philosophy and the occult and and particularly in a in a Mormon setting you
know these aren't Jehovah's Witnesses or somebody knocking on the door I think it's a deliberate choice

(16:34):
for for these two to be sister missionaries from the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
yeah and with with my conversations with you on some of the uh I don't dare dare say more esoteric
angles of lds history uh me being an outsider orthodox Christian you know everything I'm told

(16:58):
from my world is oh this lds is like uh it's a cult and it's got all these sort of you know they're
just illuminate confirmed type people you know don't don't don't give them any time of day and and I
and I really bought into that pretty hard when I moved here and uh to hear your your uh and we don't

(17:21):
have to go through the whole history obviously we don't have time today we're gonna get we're gonna
get into heretic but to hear the perspective of Joseph Smith being and and correct me if I'm wrong
in saying this but my interpretation is Joseph Smith was practicing some occult things which had
some real effects kind of no different than believing Alistair Crowley was channeling this spirit lamb

(17:46):
using John D. Anokian rituals uh say no different than saying John D. Anard Wrekelli were able to talk
to these angels and stuff uh Joseph Smith just used that same lineage in that same practice and he had
a real experience this isn't just some con man who necessarily came up with a control system
this is a a guy who used some of these cult practices to make contact with something and he

(18:09):
believed that this was a real divine experience that he had does that fair?
I think that's I think that that's fair um like I take a pretty heterodox perspective on it now but
yeah and we'll go through some of the slides and the specifics and you know he definitely was
uh not just dabbling but but pretty deeply involved with some some occult rituals um and practices

(18:37):
not only at the beginning of his life but throughout his life in the end and and that's kind of what I
think it illustrates is if you if you take someone like Alistair Crowley or if you take someone like
John D I mean here it is hundreds of years later we're still talking about them. They've attained
some sort of immortality and if that's the goal of the philosopher stone then they got it. Oh
so you know and I don't know I you know I've got my own personal convictions and nobody cares about

(19:05):
those but I think it's a valid point to say yeah hey look some Joseph Smith was a pretty remarkable
person just in in terms of history and influence and that's what's crazy to me about it is like I
know how nutty it is I've I've lived it I've believed it I've studied it I've scrutinized it I've attacked it

(19:25):
and yeah I'm not the only one I it somehow it's you know 200 years later this this religion now claims
millions of adherents and it's a real it's a real testament to the power of current to the power
of energy some of these things that talk about you know all sorts of esoteric schools and traditions

(19:49):
talk about this concept of energy and progression and prana and spirit and light and all of that
and it's it's hard to argue with the fact that Joseph Smith certainly was up to something
and he accomplished something and you know as we go through this stuff today I think there's some
you know I'll betray my own take on it certainly think he was up to something spiritual and he

(20:14):
achieved something that's that's pretty remarkable yeah that's it's interesting in your in your article
you lay out Joseph Smith's journey as an initiate in Palmyra and Adept in Kurtland Ohio and then a
Megas in Navu Navu my saying that right Navu that's how I say it anyway it's almost Utah and say it

(20:39):
I don't know what the Hebrew pronunciation was yeah Navu okay yeah and and and and my interpretation
of what you're saying is that the LDS endowment ceremony which is basically getting sealed in the
temple right is another term for that is just a reenactment a dramatization of Joseph Smith journey

(21:03):
ascending into you know ascending in closer to a divine status I don't I don't really know like what's
the what's the what's the sort of what's the sort of trajectory of Joseph Smith what was he trying
to do is he trying to become God was he trying to just become a I don't know a magic practitioner

(21:26):
yeah do um I can let me if you want to jump ahead you want to just dive in and start there um
so Joseph Smith let's see where to start um you know people have heard about him and these are some

(21:50):
of the books that I've I've read and most of what I'm going to go through you can find in these books
the the really important one is early Mormonism and the magic worldview by Michael Quinn um you can
see the the titles I won't go through all of them um but one of the ones that's really interesting to
me is is from Peter Levenda and we were talking you know with Crowley game recognizing game Peter

(22:12):
Levenda has a book about uh Joseph Smith and early Mormonism in the occult and his quote is Mormonism
in order to be understood must be viewed through the lens of occultism and particularly the hermetic
form that Joseph Smith embraced throughout his life and especially in the last five years or so when
he incorporated Masonic and other ideas such as differing levels of the priesthood into the temple

(22:36):
it was as if he had seen something ineffable and had to surround it with a fortress of secrets
passwords arcane rituals and silence in order to protect it from misuse or profanation and I think
that is we let's go we can go back and start over heretic but as we go through the progression of
Joseph Smith's life yeah I really do think that you see this evolution of uh you know a young kid who's

(23:00):
rebellious and dabbling in the occult and I just like teenagers play dungeons and dragons
you know he's one of those kinds of people and he gets deeper and deeper into it
and there are more and more manifestations of what you might call the magicians will
that he is defying all odds to come from abject poverty uh to rise to the level where he you know

(23:24):
ran for the president of the united states and like I said 200 years later we're talking about and
there's millions of people who believe he's a prophet uh it's like it's it's pretty significant and
and when you through what Peter Leventa is talking about here through the lens of occultism
I think a pretty compelling argument can be made that Joseph Smith was experiencing this great work

(23:44):
this metaphysical journey of of being initiated and learning skills through adept and then and
then becoming a master a majesty of the temple which is you know divinity apotheosis becoming a god
their different traditions call it different things but squint your eyes and they're all pretty close
what does your take on so not okay so nosticism right that is in a cult I don't know is it in a

(24:14):
cult based belief system religion we're gonna call it and the simple version like my simple brain
interprets all school of thought of nosticism as being this idea that we are trapped in a prison
planet by this evil god who's not a real god he's a false god and he created this this uh this

(24:35):
existence this realm and he did it deceptively to try to force us to worship him
with the fear of going to hell and all these things and that's why religion is all wrong and
nosticism is the true faith that once you become awakened or enlightened you can
finally escape this prison planet and escape reincarnation and all these kinds of things

(25:01):
is that is that baked into I mean I want to I want to transition into heretic but one one sort of
segue into heretic is this idea of nosticism is that baked anywhere into the LDS faith or is that
wayoff base well it's not explicitly baked into the faith no but I do think that when you look at the

(25:25):
influences that Joseph Smith was taking on nosticism very much influenced the traditions
that developed into kind of the Renaissance magic and the grim wars and those types of things that
became then the foundation for the cunning folk practices that Joseph Smith was definitely

(25:45):
engaged in so again it's not like uh Joseph Smith was reading in anostic texts that hadn't been
published or discovered or anything like that um but there are enough themes within this the
and nosticism I think you do a pretty good job of describing it and it's incredibly complex
field and so you kind of lumping things into nosticism you're you're combining a lot of

(26:10):
opposites and a lot of things that quite frankly we we still don't completely understand because we're
reconstructing texts and and you know putting together history but to the extent that we can understand
it yes the the the the the gnostic sect was apart from what became Orthodox Christianity lower case
oh you know as well as uppercase oh I guess um but there are a lot the then we the things like the

(26:35):
Dead Sea Scrolls the noghamati library other bits and pieces and fragments from history people
have tried to kind of reconstruct what the nostics were and there's no one single definition
for them there's the sethian and the valentinean and there's you know just like anything else if
you examine under a microscope deep enough the differences start to align but when you come out a

(26:59):
little bit more that's basically what it is is this idea that there you could have this mystical
experience and it it's more than just that we are uh trapped in this prison world but that there
is a way out and and that way out is through noses through knowledge through having these divine
experiences through prayer through meditation through ritual um and through divine communion that we

(27:24):
we can break free and that we can at least experience an afterlife and if it's as simple as you know
going to heaven versus going to hell or if it's if it's progressing through um you know these
stages or kingdoms or palaces uh it really depends on which which flavor you're drinking from

(27:45):
okay all right that makes sense that's actually a great way of describing it that that makes way more
sense than um you know I just all I ever picture is people killing themselves so that they can return
their light back to the moon and i'm like well this is getting kind of wild yeah and and that's one of

(28:05):
the the the things that the nosticism has going against it is most of what was commonly accepted and
understood was uh what was preserved by its critics and its detractors and people that were arguing
for more orthodoxy so it's just the antagonistic polimics that the nostics are bad a lot of their
writings and typies they were persecuted they were murdered all their books were burned

(28:27):
their stuff is harder to get to and again we've had discoveries that have brought some of these
texts into light and kind of help you know it makes makes the the picture of of the early Christian
era i think really fascinating and interesting what you know whether you believe it or not it it
does inform a lot of what was going on in the time um okay now how does this how do we how do we move

(28:53):
into heretic uh where do you want to start with because like you're you're you're kind of drawing
the comparison of nosticism with the film heretic right yeah i think that one's pretty clear
should should should we start with that as being the sort of main theme and then as we see how much
time we've got left we can kind of pick apart some of the individual little ideas yeah sure so um

(29:19):
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couple of texts in noctisism that are important I think to the analysis of heretic one is pistis

(32:04):
Sophia and pistis Sophia is kind of a scripture that that talks about pistis that means faith Sophia
means wisdom and she's a feminine character and she descends she gets through a series of unfortunate
events she falls from the heavens and the pluroma and she has to come down into this lousy world and

(32:26):
and find her way back again and the way she does that is through unification with christ and actually
realizing her divine feminine I'm completely oversimplifying it but but you have this this feminine
journey who who finds salvation to escape um and then the other books are the books of jew and

(32:47):
I think these are fascinating these are texts that were picked up by a Scottish philosopher or
Scottish explorer named James Bruce and so on the same expedition this is the guy who goes and
pulls the book of enuck out of Ethiopian obscurity it's the only reason we have the book of enuck
today but he also gets these books of jew and the books this is a little bit about James Bruce

(33:11):
will scroll through it but the books of jew over here on the right it has maps and it has rituals
and what what what it does is it tells you how to progress through these heavens and through these
these realms of dimensions through divine names through divine tokens through the you know through
the exchange of words and signals you're able to progress through these geographic spaces or rooms

(33:39):
is that kind of like the uh the scrying the aethers the thirty aethers the john d is that was that
it really different I don't know it's pretty different but me I mean it might I don't have experience
with it I might might be the same but it's the same concept so the the john d scrying of the aethers
is a ritual that's done in ennokian to go through these thirty levels or spheres and some of

(34:05):
them are up and some of them are down so I do think that there is at least a loose correspondence to
this concept of of dimensional transportation and and the books of jew map it out and they they
prescribe rituals and so in enempistasophia there's a an underlying philosophy of this descent and
ascent um you see parallels from this not only the the you know the palaces in the books of jew

(34:32):
but you see this in in hekelot and morkabba mysticism which were forms of judeic mysticism
that were palaces and chariots that you would be moving you would be having an experience where you
you you traveled through different spheres dimensions rooms whatever you want to call them
that's similar to what you see in uh in in Egyptian cosmology that's why the pyramids have

(34:57):
you know the way death rituals are so important to the Egyptians kind of practice for the afterlife
exactly exactly father father seraphim rose in orthodoxy he also he got in trouble because he advocated
for this belief in toll houses after you die where you totally drew different things similar right
yeah totally yeah sorry I don't mean to I don't mean to know that's right I remember you talking

(35:20):
about that a while ago and I went and I was like oh that's that's the the toll house concept is
is very much the same idea yeah so anyway in in nosticism this is the bad guy well you know
you guys have little sympathy for the devil but the demirge is one of these deities and that's one

(35:40):
thing to understand about nosticism a lot of esotericism is that this is a polytheistic there's not
just a god and a devil with a you know a right and a wrong it's it's complicated and there are
different entities and different deities one of those is Yalda Boeth or the demirge and what
happens is again through a series of unfortunate events Yalda Boeth is created and he's pissed off

(36:03):
because things didn't work out the way he wanted to and so he manufactures this artificial world and
says I'll become the god and I'll just create this realm and I'll I'll be in control and I'll control
everything and that way you know I don't have to worry about what's going on in all of the other
spheres and dimensions and palaces of the cosmos I've just I'm just confined to this this one little

(36:26):
sphere this fake world that I've made and I'll you know take droplets of souls and put them in there
and let them recycle through through journeys and and within certain strands of nosticism this this
idea is that Jesus Christ or Christ who Jesus of the New Testament embodies and or is

(36:48):
depending on how you read this stuff that through this redeemer through this unification with Christ
and through accepting that that then allows for the to learn the lessons to unlock the mysteries
that are needed to progress and not only out of this melcoothian sphere of the demiurgis creation

(37:10):
but the you know to progress through the different palaces of the heavens of through the cosmos and
eternally progress so you saying that the idea and I I'm with you that we're probably grossly
oversimplifying a million things because I actually bought these great courses as a course on

(37:32):
nosticism it's like 25 hours and I'm like bro what are we talking about and are you saying that there's a
there's a interpretation of nosticism where Christ descends down to our realm of melcooth and
liberates Sophia who is down here and sort of provides a mapping of how Sophia and all of us can

(37:59):
follow Christ to ascend back out of the prison planet is that kind of sort of close pista
Sophia so it's the resurrected Christ he's already gone to the other side and it's pista Sophia he
does it's I'd have to get it in order you know who was ascending and who was descending but this was
an ascended Christ savior redeemer who ends up being the source of light and there's bar below

(38:25):
and some other characters but yes definitely Christ is the way out of the demi urges false
so maybe maybe is that where the beef came in because I know you're saying how I think it was like
I apetus was the name of the guy that the modern day Christian church they had him do
in disinformation campaign against the nostics to like shut that movement down because there was a

(38:48):
competing philosophy on who Christ was and what the purpose of Christ being here was and it's
sounds to me like there's the nostics also believe in the divinity of Christ but their interpretation was
yeah and Christ is leading us out of the prison planet whereas the Christians are like
quit it with all this prison planet nonsense is that kind of a

(39:13):
I think that's fair again taking grace in the fact that we're covering some huge topics but yeah
I think that's a pretty fair assessment and you can certainly find literature to support it you
can find you know you can find interpretations that will twist it and turn it but but definitely
Christ as a redemptive figure that can be stayed that that can be found within nosticism for sure okay

(39:36):
all right go ahead sorry no no that's good um so anyway though that that kind of sets up the the idea
for my idea on or sets up the concepts behind my ideas about her take that you know from the
from this these nostic scripts and teachings we get this metaphor or the divine feminine having
this journey where they have to descend into darkness but then they find redemption they find

(40:01):
their way out that there are dimensions that there are spatial dimensions sacred geometry comes
from this concept that through through experiences through ritual through going through things there
is a dimensional change and you know whether it's a the physical dimension or a spiritual or
psychological dimension now that's up to you but those concepts are certainly at play in heretic

(40:26):
the other one the other character that features in and pistisophia and elsewhere in
Greek mythology and in esoteric traditions is hekate and this is the the triune headed goddess
of magic and she's she's considered a malevolent entity in pistisophia but just in the sense that

(40:46):
she's adversarial and she presents challenges but they're usually challenges designed to make you
grow and progress and as hard as that might be and why that might keep slamming you back down into
the artificial world and and inhibit your ascension she she certainly plays a role she features in
in other esoteric traditions she's in the caldian oracles and there's whole whole sects and magical

(41:13):
practices devoted to her and she shows up in the movie and that's where I was like okay there's
something to this because there's a scene in the movie at the beginning so just to jump in it starts
off with these missionaries sitting on a bench with a condom ad and they're talking about pornographic
movies and you have this contrast of the sacred and the profane you have these virginal sister missionaries

(41:38):
talking about dirty sex and and setting up that sacred and profane contrast at the outset is very
I think that's important then you see them walking their bikes up the stairs walking their bikes
down the stairs again symbolic of this and they've done it before it's a routine to them they're
going up and they're going down and they depart from that path and they go to an intersection

(42:04):
of a literal crossroads and at the intersection they meet these three sorority sisters
and the three sorority sisters come up to sister the missionaries and ask for a picture
and they say to sister Paxton is a true and she's all delighted she said she approaches the

(42:24):
intersection with complete agape christian charity she says I love these girls she gets to the intersection
and they ask her if it's true and she says is what true do you wear magic underwear and then the
yankers skirt down revealing magic underwear what the Mormons the the LDS refer to as the garment
which is sacred underwear it's it's underwear that you're given in the temple after you've been

(42:50):
initiated and you're supposed to wear it every day your whole life and it it I mean it's weird right
we get made fun of for it all the time and that's what is encountered by sister Paxton but if you
look at those three sorority sisters as hekatee it's a revelatory act it's revealing what is magic
underwear and it begins this process of introspection for sister Paxton who's kind of the faith

(43:14):
character she's on the lesson you know sister barns probably has done this before and has learned
a thing or two but that's kind of where it it dives into her ticket that makes sense that's
fascinating because I look I am a I'm a self-admitted ignoramus and shakes pier yeah there you go

(43:36):
mechbeth which I've never seen I tried to watch the movie version with Denzel Washington I was like
oh I don't even know what they're saying because they're using that sort of language right and
where it's sisters yeah that's so the three sisters hekatee appears in the story shakes pier is mechbeth
and the other reason I know that or even think about is because of Jane she'll be downer who brings it

(43:56):
up in king kill 33 which I'm going to do a whole show about king kill 33 because it's it's super
interesting and so he lays out this this idea that you've got the three sisters and then along the
they were hornotted the umuerte the journey of death and this is all like JFK assassination crypto

(44:17):
cryptocracies talk that he basically connects the three sisters mountain range and then when I
interviewed dr. Jacques Valet he made reference to this important area which is actually the three
sisters buttes that they had this experience with UFOs anyway it's just interesting this keeps coming
up in my little journey the last couple months this this hekatee or deal so that's that is interesting

(44:41):
because you said hakatee is the sort of adversary at the crossroads and that's that's very much because
in the movie heretic it's it it almost feels out of place the way the way they get harassed by these
three girls just kind of out of nowhere it's not like it's not like that's been their their journey
they don't set it up as this long like all these two more missionaries are in Colorado and they're

(45:06):
they're getting harassed here and they're getting harassed there you didn't get that at all just
out of nowhere these three these three adversarial type archetypes here show up and they they
are asking for the the magic underwear which uh comes up later in the movie as well and it becomes
a sort of redemptive thing in a way um it's the code word yeah it's the code word so okay so so

(45:28):
interesting layout there with hakatee what's the um what do you want to go next you want to go with more of the
how mr. Reed initiates these two into his worldview which you presume has some
no stick flare to it yeah so i don't have good slides for this but this is so the the missionaries go
out it starts out it's a nice sunny day by the time they show up to mr. Reed's house uh the clouds

(45:54):
are rolling in it's starting to storm there's an interesting exchange where sister barns
puts a key in a lock locks it puts a key in her pocket because the transmission of keys and locks is
a big deal then they go up to his house and they approach the doorway and the the he mentions that

(46:14):
he's got a wife but she's absent so there's this this notion of a there there's an acknowledgement
of a feminine counterpart but she's not present there's there's clues she's got a knitting basket on
and he says that she's baking a pie so we have this this acknowledgement of this divine feminine but
she's out there she's not seen um the girls the sister missionaries go through an arched doorway

(46:40):
enter into a rectangular framed doorway into the living room space and so that's the first
geographic transformation they're leaving from the world into this confined space that has the
appearance of home um but hide something else on the on the shelf there's uh there's a statue of
one bird flying one bird flying up one bird flying down and in between them is a statue of an owl

(47:06):
which is the symbol of manurva which is wisdom which is sofia which is wisdom so there's a couple
of cues in that scene as well and then the hexagon window um on the wall with the two hexagon end tables
beside the table uh yeah there you go yeah i've got some of these images that i'm throwing up on

(47:27):
the screen for people watching the video version uh that's that's the hexagon window with the butterfly
yeah and so you've got this you've got this transitioning to dimensional space uh marked by
the hexagon and the hexagon the six-sided square that becomes a cube that becomes symbolic for Saturn

(47:50):
and that opens up a whole host of you know a cult topics but you definitely see that in the right at
the very beginning uh in heretic then the deception the deception comes across he you know they find
out that there's uh there's no blueberry pie being baked it's simply a candle oddly enough is the

(48:12):
missionaries enter the room he tells them oh i hope you don't mind my whole house is encased in metal
which is you know a little bit odd and they you know i don't think anything of it but this concept of
you've got this outer world but now you've got this metallic enclosed lead space these girls are
confined in again that's a Saturnian influence there's two clocks in the living room Saturn is

(48:36):
chronos the measurement of time oh there's two there's two clocks inside of his living room yeah yeah
if you if you watch the clock on the mantle and then there's like a grandfather clock that's not okay
so and then they and then he invites them deeper into his layer that goes into the the chapel they

(48:56):
pass all these scriptural books and the chapel scene is that was the one that totally got me because
it's yeah there you go it's this weird distorted shape and at the top of the door as you've got what
would be the arch to a hexagon but then it expands into this again this space and then you can see
at this i call it the chapel but at the head of what would be the chapel the altar so this is what

(49:20):
would be the apps in a church there are scenes in it where he's where when mr. Reed stands at the
center of his altar it really appears as though as he's standing in the center of a cube and again
these girls have entered the transformative space this veil that's represented by the window the
hexagon window that the butterfly another symbol of Sophia is is batting against can't get through

(49:43):
that veil the butterfly actually flitters up to the single light bulb and sister barns looks up
and kind of appreciates it but these these girls have passed through a veil these girls have
have entered into a realm that is distorted but still has a geometry and and the geometry of
mr. Reed being at the center is is indicative of control interesting and there's the demure you've

(50:09):
got you know the this fake world creator that's manipulating the environment to steer you where he
wants you so if we if we move past the the sort of journey of Joseph Smith but talk about the
endowment ceremony in the LDS church are you you were saying that when mr. Reed he so so we're

(50:36):
around the story here the the two missionaries that go to his house and he and they realize sort of
something's a little off something's a little different he takes him into this chapel room and they're
like hey can we get out of here and he's like oh sure you get out here you got to go through the
back door you guys choose one of these two doors so they're given this sort of choice and then they
go they end up going downstairs underground right and they go into another it's a hexagon shaped

(51:04):
room underground another saturnian type room how does this compare and contrast to the LDS endowment
ceremony which is the LDS endowment ceremony ceremony limited to strictly the is that the same thing
when people say they're sealed in the temple or they're getting married in the temple is that the
same exact thing or are there multiple endowments no it's pretty close um let me jump up here and I

(51:28):
can kind of explain that so the temple is a number of ordinances are performed in the temple the
temple is something that was instituted by Joseph Smith originally very early on he started talking
about building temples he built a temple in Kurtland Ohio that has some interesting geography

(51:49):
and some interesting architectural aspects to it but it wasn't really used the same way the
temples are now it was more of kind of a meeting house um when he progresses to the new navel stage
he builds a second temple or at least begins a second temple and this is where the ordinance actually
begins and it's there is no temple built so they did it on top of yet a a store that he ran and on

(52:16):
top of the store was kind of a meeting room and they would set up curtains and they would progress
from and then these curtains would make divisions or dividers and they would progress from one
curtain room to the next and enact these rituals and and handoff tokens and what it really is
um it's a progression of rooms and different rooms have different ordinances so a lot of people have

(52:41):
heard of baptisms for the dead perhaps associated with Mormons and that's a something that Mormons do
is they they have baptismal fonts and for people that died before they could receive the message of
Jesus Christ they can be baptized by proxy someone standing in their stead they because that ordinance
is important it's not a meaningless you know it's it's a it has to be done it's a necessary ritual

(53:05):
and so if you can't do it yourself it can be done vicariously or it can be done by proxy
so baptisms for the dead are done in temples but that the the the ordinances are your like you said
the endowment that's one ordinance and that begin and then the ceiling the ceiling is kind of the
high pinnacle that's where families can be together forever is that as above so below what God

(53:31):
what is written in the books of heaven is written down here and that if you have a family relationship
here that that family relationship can continue beyond through the execution of certain seals
a ceiling power keys of the priesthood seal these families together their souls are sealed
together eternally which is just like what the Pharaohs used to do they the the sinecure of a moon

(53:55):
is you would develop these chains of your family and that would lead to your exaltation the more people
the more posterity the more followers whatever you want to call it that would exalt you
even further in the next realm so the the endowment is actually a it's it's like a mystery school

(54:16):
almost like it you know you've talked about the masonic temples and schooling bones and this idea
that you die and come back and you learn great new light and truth as you come out the other side
the temple has an initiatory room so that's the first step is the initiation or washings and
anointing should be declared cleaned purified ritualistically once you've once you've been washed

(54:42):
and cleaned you put on the white garment that's the magic underwear it's a it's a you know that's
what it is it's a holy garment that you wear because you've been cleaned and washed before God
anywhere it is and there's toaps you know symbols i'll talk about a little bit
but you wear this garment and then you put on temple clothes temple regalia and you enter into
what's the called the creation room and in the creation room you're basically imagining or

(55:06):
reenacting what things were like before we came down here in lds theology there's this notion of
a pre-existence that we lived as spirits before we came down here and we came down here as a probation
area state if we do things right then we can get back and live happily ever after but so that's

(55:27):
what the creation room embodies is oh we're here with God figuring everything out as God is making the
world and it goes through the seven days of creation and then you would move into the next room which
is the garden room and it's representative of Adam and Eve and you know you're in the garden having
this way awakening experience in this new world and you get confronted by temptation the the devil

(55:47):
shows up and tempts Adam and Eve and and they you know as the story goes they fall and they're expelled
from the garden room and then they go into the world room which is again it's a geographic room and
nowadays you sit in there and they watch a movie they play a movie and you don't you stand up
and sit down but there's not really the progression as much but in the original days when Joseph

(56:10):
Smith instituted that you had the curtains and then the nabu temple you were actually progressing
from room to room and that's what you see in heretic is is these girls progress from room to room
just as in the the Mormon temple you you progress from the garden room to the world room to eventually
you get to the point of the veil and then if you give the right passwords and the right tokens and

(56:32):
exchange and you show that you know what you're doing then you can go through the veil into the
presence of God that's the celestial room and then and that's called the endowment because you go
through when you make a covenant and you know you say I promise to do this if you'll promise to
this and you exchange covenants in the temple with God and then God endows you with certain blessings

(56:54):
and says okay I'll watch you if you stay true to these covenants and wear your garments on the outside
and you know be an upstanding endure to the end you'll get to heaven basically and so you will
you wear those garments out into the real world but you're it's a reminder that you have made sacred
covenants and that you are are endowed with power from unhide that's what the endowment is as

(57:15):
you're being giving something from God in exchange for making covenants and promises to him.
Is that veil is that the because I've seen a video an undercover video on YouTube of someone who
claims they're going to the temple ceremony and they go to a curtain and a hand pops out and they
they shake the hand and get like a secret name is that the veil do they literally like then walk

(57:35):
through this curtain and now you're in this new celestial room is that yeah that's exactly how it works
and so the first separate stuff or like are you allowed to talk about this?
Well I mean I won't do a lot of it's sacred and people take it seriously it's on the internet if
people really want to find out about it okay um but yeah that's what that's what you're doing as

(57:58):
you go as you progress through the rooms you get taught a little bit of a lesson or a morality
tale based on the life of Christ and Peter James and John and Adam and Eve and
also this is public knowledge like this isn't because you can find it on the internet and I want to
you it's it's it's not supposed to be and again this is we were talking about the sacred and the
profane the the belief is that what happens in the temple is so sacred that literally God can

(58:25):
dwell there that that you don't profane it by bringing it out into the world it's so that's you'll
hear that distinction with Mormon sometimes is it it's not secret but it's sacred okay it's a
subtle distinction but it's just like any you know a secret society like the Freemasons or the
OTO everybody has their handshakes but that's what you do is you you go through the room you get a

(58:46):
lesson you say okay I understand this lesson I'm willing to make a deal with you make a covenant
with God and in exchange for that you'll give me a token or a sign that I can then use to get
through the next life to get through the journey to get to where I want to go and so you memorize
lines you memorize names you learn you know secret sacred tokens which are you know hand gestures

(59:12):
and exchanges of you know some kind of a symbolic exchange with somebody else to show that you have
been initiated that you have made the covenants that you are willing to uphold those it's kind of
that's where the the story of the Freemason handshakes came from is that you you have these Masonic
guilds people who were actually trained stone mason's and in order to ensure the the quality of the

(59:35):
guild you would be able to go and say hey I can press this hand into your hand in a certain way
and you know that you'll get a certain quality of stone craft from me it's a similar idea that
you're learning covenants you're learning promises you're making covenants and then you're
exchanging these tokens but that very is literally what happens is there's a veil on one side of
the room there's a what's called the temple worker and efficient who is on the other side of the room

(01:00:00):
and you go up to the veil and if you've remembered the passwords and can explain what you're doing
and exchange the tokens then you are allowed to pass through that veil into the divine presence
and that's not dissimilar to you know Solomon's temple what we understand about its right
certainly the Egyptian rights this is passing through the veil into the the holy of holies or the

(01:00:21):
realm of God the celestial room and the holy polys and more of these are temples are different
now you compare the endowment ceremony of LDS to you call it sort of the the I think you use the
term black lodge in your article the heretic has a sort of anti endowment ceremony how does how does
that work is it the invert an exact inversion of what you would find in LDS endowment ceremony is

(01:00:46):
that why you said that boy it's a pretty I mean not a direct word for word inversion but you have
them progress the the sister missionaries progress to this chapel to this educational room where
where mr. Reed tells them how smart he is and talks all about monopoly and and you know give some
valid critiques of religion and Mormonism in particular and what's so cool is like the cinematography

(01:01:13):
of the shot keeps going back and forth and the girls enter the room I could call them girls the young
women the sister missionaries enter the room and eventually there's a black veil behind them it's
a they're the script the screen place calls it a red veil but it looks black to me as opposed to
the white veil that you see in in the Mormon temple ceremony and they literally have to pass

(01:01:38):
through that veil to get you know to to the next phase of their journey and so you know the the
descent is instead of going instead of you know falling out of the garden of Eden and then going
through the terrestrial world experience and eventually being able to come back to the celestial
kingdom the missionaries in this case leave what is you know at least a decent sunshine in

(01:02:01):
the world despite the persecutions of hekite and they enter into this nightmare asha bis where it
gets worse and worse and worse and worse until finally at the end when sister paxed and has this
transcendent moment at the expense of sister barn to sacrifice where she figures out how to get
out of the wheel she gets out of the loop of crawling you know through the the the repetition

(01:02:25):
mirror of the rooms and finds an escape back to the outside world yeah there there was it what
during that portion of the movie she after she kind of goes through this these various doors and
stuff she walks by a an image of the Dante's in Ferno right which which I think is similar to

(01:02:47):
this idea of distinction and then the doors and the chambers that she kind of walks through you
you're rightfully so point out a connection to Alistair Crowley would that star of babelon on there right
right and I just you think that's related to the divine feminine perhaps another reference to that maybe
you know perhaps that scene that walking through I've looked at that a few times and I yeah I mean

(01:03:11):
there are so many symbols in that scene that it's really tough to decode and you could kind of
rush act those but certainly the the mystical components of babelon and what she represents as part
of the archetypal feminine yeah see there you've got E.O. which is a transcendent symbol there's

(01:03:36):
wait wait what do you so I just I just pulled out the different image of this is a no because she
goes through a series of doors at the end and he's unlike what you're comparing to the ideas of
going through different rooms in the endowment ceremony and one of these doors as I I believe to be
an inverted pentagram but all flashes very fast right and is it you seeing on here well this that
little symbol kind of down in the lower right hand corner of the door uh-huh there's a

(01:04:00):
god I've got a book it there there's a hang on let me grab something okay I'll come
to chat with there's uh so if you look on like the abyss ax shield there's
the abyss ax have I been saying that name I called a braxis so I would say that on this one time
not well that just it depends um I think it's I think it's I think it's abyss ax but a lot of people say

(01:04:28):
a braxis it's okay okay it gets pretty conflated okay um but yeah this and and that's this E.O
chant that or no no no no that it's it's a there's a core thing when you speak and there are that
this would not to detract too much but the vocalizations of goesha and saying things out loud so that

(01:04:54):
gods can hear you having to vocalize and use the timber of your voice to get through that's part of
a lot of these esoteric rituals um that that the sefri etsyra teaches the creation was saying into
being that there are sounds that will unlock certain doors uh sounds are key and so I don't know

(01:05:14):
there's there's you think maybe that is something to do with these doors that have these images on it
is maybe it's you you're supposed to I don't know verbalize something to unlock the door symbolically
it could be um and I thought about because when the when the missionaries at the beginning are talking
about when they're going up and down the stairs one of the things they talk about is they're pretty

(01:05:36):
singing voices um you know it's not a big component I think of the story but I thought that I was
one of the kind of little things I thought I wonder if that was intentional wow interesting okay
so I'm looking at the time we're already out of time but it could maybe take a couple minutes and
is there any other big points in the film heretic that you want to draw attention to that we

(01:05:57):
haven't talked about yet I mean I know there's your your art of who was through so many different
ideas about it but is there anything that you want to kind of also bring out that we haven't covered
the one thing that I think is significant if there's any Mormons listening to this when when you
get to that black veil um and the saturnian concepts of the being the black sun that's that's a very

(01:06:20):
interesting inversion of what the passwords and the tokens represent and are spoken at the veil
and the Mormon temple ceremony so um the article goes much deeper into some of the saturnian
aspects and and how that relates to alchemy and the soul of migrido um but I think those are some
some very interesting symbolic and thematic uh subjects that get brought up in the movie yeah

(01:06:46):
absolutely I think the the saturnian idea and the demi-erges of nosticism is all sort of baked
into that and to be full disclosure for the listeners I actually I talked a rine about doing this show
and as life would prove to me too busy I wanted to get my my interpretation of what I saw in the film

(01:07:07):
heretic out so that rine could review it and kind of know if there was I don't know maybe something he could
riff on or whatever you know however you want to look at that and I didn't get it out in time and it's
fascinating because what you got here today is a two completely unique takes on this movie and we both

(01:07:28):
found as rine will hear what when I do release my show which is going to be chronologically people
listening to this right now my version is out already rines is going to show up the week later so
rine uh he hasn't caught mine yet but what what will hear is a lot of similar themes of the uh the
saturnian nostic elements of this movie but I think it's fascinating that you can you can pull in a

(01:07:51):
lot of these these interesting as I would call it esoteric lbs ideas is what I would say so
yeah fascinating stuff rine thanks for spending your time to go through it and I really appreciate
you now usually when I've got guests on their their plug and stuff right I've got books or podcasts or
whatever you have any calls to action for the audience any ideas of where you want them to go from

(01:08:15):
here uh my my only thing would be uh yeah donate donate to the humane society go take care animals
and spend your pets I love that yes excellent you know I met Bob Barker once back in the day
talking about spaying and neutering pets so anyway um yeah thanks again rine and appreciate you
well there you go now you know all the secrets all the esoteric secrets to lbs warming church

(01:08:37):
and uh we're gonna actually dive into the topic a little bit more this year I've got a couple other
guests that I'm gonna try to get on here to break down some of these ideas and as I mentioned
before in the show notes I'm gonna put links to the video version of the show if you want to check
that out I'll also throw a link to the heretic uh full film analysis that I conducted which was only

(01:08:58):
on the supporter feeds it's the May supporter feed bonus show and we went deep into the film and unpacked
all the saturnian elements and all of these gnostic sort of points of view so you can check that out
if you want to support the show go at free early access hundreds of bonus I was as my goodness why
when you want to do it so uh lots of options for you till next time stay positive
well let me tell you something brother I've told you that if you want to be like the holster

(01:09:25):
you've got to get your prayers training and vitamins be sure to take a lot of vitamins
I mean a lot of vitamins brother but now I got something else for you oh yeah you're listening
to the free feed which means two things missing out on bonus episodes listening to all those annoying

(01:09:47):
commercials well I got a solution brother you can support the podcast by signing up for one of
the supporter feeds where you can get Isaac's most popular books the dark path and Kubrick's code
for free brother we'll also get bonus episodes every month that the free feed losers never get to

(01:10:07):
hear you've got a few options brother like patreon.com slash illuminati watcher or the illuminati watcher
dot com bip section dig it you can hit the links in the show notes just code illuminati watcher.com
hit the tab that says VIP read about the ways you can unlock all the goods before it's too late yeah

(01:10:33):
brother what you're gonna do when the illuminati run wild on you
♪ Down in her two sides ♪

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