17: The Glimmer Man

Steven Seagal is one of the biggest action stars of the '90s, starring in some of the biggest action films of the decade. He ended up dropping off the radar completely in the early 2000s, being relegated to the Walmart bargain bins and truck stop DVD corners. Mainstream action fans all but forget his talents, but no longer.

The Kulturecast's Chris Stachiw and film critic Trevor Gumbel continue their downhill jog through the stoic world of everyone's favorite portly Aikido master with The Glimmer Man. Starring Keenen Wayans and Steven Seagal, the two are reluctant LAPD partners tasked with stopping a sadistic serial killer prowling LA. Maybe.

For more episodes of On Seagal along with many more podcasts that are guaranteed to be your new favorite audio obsession, check out Weirding Way Media at weirdingwaymedia.com.

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
Weird Way Media. Hello and welcometo the On Seagal Podcast, your podcast

(00:43):
for everything at Anything, Steven Seagal, I am your host, Trevor Gumble,
and with me as always is mylovely, lovely co host and Gomez
Adams. Cause player, that's true. My hair is the wrong color and
much too long at this point,like millennial Gomez Adams and that that's that's
the look I'm cultivating. Is amillennial Gomez Adams, like the like the

(01:04):
like the fan, the fan posterwith Johnny Depp in it. No,
Johnny Depp is oh what oh?I mean at some point in our history
of this business that would have beena casting decision that would have made total
sense. I don't think anymore.I don't think anymore. I mean,
are you talking about like Oscar Isaacsis who I would cast, But that's
who they cast in the in themovie as the voice of Yeah, it

(01:26):
was a terrible movie. Well firstone, at least I'm in the second
one. I haven't seen any ofthem. I I there are one set
of Adams family movies that are forme, and those are the ones from
the nineties that yeah, you can'tokay when they tried to do a third
one with Tim Curry and and DarylHannah. I kind of liked it.
I saw it way too many timesas a kid. It was one of

(01:47):
those vhs. It was one ofthose vhs as we just happened to own.
Yeah, well it didn't have likeits own purple cover or some shit
like that, I know something.And then there was like, yeah,
Tim Curry was Gomez, Daryl Hannahwas more Tisha. I mean somebody.
It was a good effort. Therewas somebody in the movie who was a
villain who's just like a character actress, probably like Michael McKeon or something.

(02:08):
I don't there's some other character actmaybe. Yeah, I think Bigley Junior
was in it. That may beHarris was in it, the late Estel
Harris, who just we just lostrecently. Yeah. I uh, but
but we're not here to talk aboutthat. We're not here to talk about
the m You gotta introduce yourself.Man. Yeah, I'm Chris stash Hue,
but I'm not Steven Seagal. AndI didn't spend twenty four hours with

(02:30):
Steven Seagal either. No, wedidn't end, which is like an is
a video that's been like making itsway around the internet. Uh recently,
we both watched it separate from oneanother. Apparently I didn't watch the whole
thing. I only stop. Idid. It's two it's two parts,
okay, yeah, it's I willsay it's interesting. I again, I

(02:51):
think our perception of Seagal is avalid one, and I think, yeah,
our belief in who he thinks heis is a valid one. But
it's really what I think is veryinteresting. And again, I'm just taking
the bad stuff away just for thetime being. I'm not giving him a
pass. I'm not saying what hedid is okay, but just removing all

(03:13):
the things that he did, allthe allegations. It is very clear to
me in watching that footage that wasput together that Steven tagal and I've said
it before on this show, andI feel rather vindicated. Steven Seagal is
a master I KEDO instructor practitioner.He knows what he's doing. Watching him
literally just and like he's like,I can get you like this, I

(03:36):
can get you like this. Ican get you. He's just holding the
guy's hand and he's just manipulating itis this guy's hand. I can get
you here I can do this,and it's like, you know what,
it does come through in the earlymovies, not so much in the new
stuff, but in something like we'regoing to talk about on this episode.
Yeah, I think he's still thatversion of himself that he perceives himself to
be. I think is these movies, these early movies, are the closest

(04:00):
ever gets to his believed perception ofhimself. Well what I got from the
video, I mean, other thanI mean, he still knows what he's
doing. It's it's really kind offascinating to see him do what he does
best and talk about it, righthe talks about when he talks about aikido
or any martial arts that he's thathe knows. It's kind of fascinating to
hear him discuss it because he youknow, he has a passion for it.

(04:23):
This is what he loves to do, and he gets rather high level
with it. He gets pretty metaphysicaland rather insightful. And is he regurging
what other people are saying? Maybeagain I'm not I'm not a martial artist
expert, so I don't know.But what he's saying, the way he's
saying, and the things that he'ssaying, I believe, like you said,
with full conviction, this guy isa legit martial arts practitioner. Well,

(04:45):
I think since we as we've discussedon previous episodes. For him,
coming from the video, it's notjust physical, it's a very spiritual for
him. It's almost like a religion. He talks about it like he talks
about a religion, like he's trying, like if like a Christian trying to
get someone to come to Christ.This is a guy who's trying to trying
to emphasize the glory of aikido andall that stuff and the beliefs, the

(05:06):
beliefs that come along with it.I mean, it's a belief system like
anything else. It really is.Yeah. I mean the guy and the
guy talking to him, this guywho was doing the thing isn't just some
random, you know, chump whodoesn't know anything. This is a guy
who does karate professional. He's heis also a martial arts practitioner. Yeah.
Yeah, so, I mean it'snot like some random chump off the

(05:27):
street with Steven Sigale just you know, making it too easy for him.
This is a guy who actually knowswhat he's doing. And Steven Siagal still
has the the ability to to,you know, take him down, and
it kind of and and what yousay is interesting to hear him explain how
he uses the parts of his bodythe way he does, because I kido

(05:47):
is very much about how samurais we'reprotecting themselves on the battlefield, and so
it's utilizing your arms and legs likeweapons, like like literally like weapons,
not like, oh, your handsare figuratively weapons, like no, you're
literally supposed to use your leg likea spear, your arm like a sword
or a dagger to use it.And he's I mean he does it in

(06:09):
the video. You see him withhis hand and he like presses it against
the guy really hard because like,holy shit, that really hurt. It's
like, yeah, I work onthis power and the ability to do this
every day to sharpen my skills.I don't know. It painted Steven Seagal
in a much more sympathetic light thanI would say a lot of things that

(06:29):
I have seen about Steven Seagal inthe last decade. Again, everybody has
those Steven Seagal stories that give themsome level of credibility and cloud. We
joked about it with Richard on theUnderseags two episode. But like that's the
thing now, was like clowning onStephen Seagal and then you see him and
he's just like this kind of likeoverweight, older guy who has just kind
of he's pontificating a little bit.But again, he knows what, he

(06:53):
knows what he's talking about. Weknow, I know that much. I
didn't get the feeling watching the videothat he was bullshitting or string for the
camera. No, he seemed verygenuine. It's very strange. Yeah,
and I mean, you know,like you said, there have been many
stories. There have been many youknow, Richard told one. I mean,
yeah, yeah, we've heard allthe wee you can find so many

(07:15):
of these stories. Again, everybodyseemingly, like Richard said, everybody has
a Seagal story at this point.Yeah, but we're not talking about Steven
Seagal as a person. We're talkingabout Steven Seagal as an aikido right master,
right, I mean, his knowledgeof a kedo is kind of non
debatable. Right, It's almost likeI don't know anyone who speaks as broadly
about that as he is able to. He might be like one of the

(07:39):
better experts on it. I wouldthink in a way it kind of makes
it sadder that he hasn't put moreeffort into into his films. You know,
I will you know what, Iwill say this honest to God,
honest to God, and I justmay color the way this show goes from
here on out. The best wayto watch these movies maybe as Steven Seagal

(08:00):
is reluctant to be in them,Okay, And I say that. I
say that because he seems so muchhe seems rather charismatic in this video when
he's talking to the guy, andyeah, he is he rather matter of
fact, sure, but he's alsoI think he's rather charismatic, not like
you know, as much as hewas in the nineties, but again,
with a level of knowledge on atopic and an ability to speak with confidence

(08:24):
comes a level of chrisma. AndI think the thing that's kind of sad
for me is realizing that Seagal actuallyhas that ability to be charismatic and be
kind of compelling, and then realizingthat, like I think, when he's
in these movies, he's just hejust he just doesn't it's just it's not
what he wants to be doing.He wants to be doing something else,
and this may just be a meansto an end. Well, you were

(08:46):
seeing the Seagal that we had inthe early nineties, and you were seeing
the personality that made him a juggernautfor for a couple of years. He
was doing ikeno in all those movies. Yeah, and then where did he
stop doing ike Where did he stop? What was the movie where he stopped?
It was under Siege? Yeah,I was right, I was all
right under sea. Well, hestill did a little bit I think in

(09:07):
Fire Down Below or No No DeadlyGround. Keep getting those two mixed up.
Well, we technically haven't even watchedone of them. Yeah, we
haven't watched technically. Yeah, butat literally films he started to get more
gun now, right, and Idid I do wonder and again we I
haven't seen the interviews with him talkingabout it. I've seen the interview where

(09:28):
he says like, I'm not usingguns anymore. But there is part of
me that wonders that at this pointwhere it's like, oh, they're offering
me these scripts, okay, likea bunch of gun shit. Okay,
whatever, fun means to an end. But again, he did fight George
Saint Pierre hand to hand, andI will remind you what was the best
of the recent movies of his thatwe watched. What was the entire premise

(09:48):
of that movie? Uh, itwas him doing a kido in attrition.
In attrition, Yeah, I meanthe scene with with him and George Saint
Pierre showed glimmer no pun intended ofthe siagal we've. Yeah, again,
not believable when it's like a sixtyfive year old man beating up George Saint
Pierre. But but I think watchthat video on YouTube and tell me that
you couldn't figure out a way tomake that believable. But you know what,

(10:11):
I think what it is is thatwatching him do his aikido, it
is kind of fascinating. It's kindof interesting. I'm with you, That's
what I'm saying. Like, ifhe never got wrapped up in this,
if he never got wrapped up inthe movies, who knows what he would
be doing not just not pretentious,but it was almost like ballet because the
way he moves very very very verysmooth and very very fucking big dude.

(10:33):
Big dudes don't move like that.And that's what makes me kind of like,
like I don't want to body shamethe guy. Believe me, But
it's more of a believable for athinner guy doing aketo fighting someone than it
is someone his size. And I'mnot saying it. I believe me.
I don't know a kedo when I'ma I'm a fluffy motherfucker. I would
actually, I would actually disagree withyou. I think I Keto is almost
better for people who are your sizeand my size because it is a purely

(10:58):
defensive of martial arts style which isbeing used to defend yourself, because I
will, probably, like yourself,don't tend to be the aggressor in these
kinds of situations someone else's and StevenSeagal, I mean you hear him talk
about it in that interview. He'slike, you know, I don't want
fights to get any further than likemy interaction needs to be the end of

(11:18):
the fight. And again, likewe've been talking about that in these movies,
like I Keto is not that Ithink the ultimate problem and let's talk
about Glimmerman. Now, I Ketois not made for the screen. I
think that needs to be like wejust need to get that out in the
open. I Keto is not aflashy martial arts style and not in it

(11:39):
not being flashy. It does notallow for because Steven Seagal wants to practice
I keto, and I don't blamehim, you know, that's the thing.
I mean, they probably were like, all right, can you just
do some fucking hokey shit, andyou, you and I both know he
was like what No. That probablythat probably made him feel really fucking insulted,
right, And that's my point.And so ikeno is such a defensive

(12:01):
fighting style. He can he explainsit as such. He's explaining it,
not making excuses for his film career. He's explaining it like the Ikeedo master
he is. It's about ending thefight essentially before the fight can get any
further than the other punch being thrown. And what have we fucking complained about
in every single one of these goddamnmovies, Trevor, Not enough Sigal fighting,

(12:24):
not enough, not enough, notenough, back and forth. I
think it boils down to that,or I mean it's it's they're not using
Sigal like they should be using Butthat's because they can't use Sigal the way
they want to use him, becausehis martial arts style is almost counterproductive to
what they're trying to do well asthey are they because Sikdo is not meant

(12:46):
to be these long term fights thatthat are in movies now. It's meant
to be short and that's it.Yeah, one and done. Your can
he like he can, he canend your life in multiple ways with multiple
different angles of attack that ultimately mostof the time it would seem sever your
brain stem with his bare hand.But that's but that's not cinematic. That's

(13:07):
just like you want when you goto an action movie where there's fight scenes
you want you don't want to fightscene that's like two minutes long. Done,
you want to fight scene. That'sthat's very like cinematic. It's a
microcosm of the movie in and ofitself. It has rises and falls in
the fight scene, the best ones, Like we talked about this last time,
the fight scene in Commando, there'sa back and forth, there's a

(13:28):
push and a pull, there's agive and a take. That's the best
fight scene is it has all right, the villain's gonna get his now,
the hero is gonna get his,and then back and forth, and just
as you think the villain's about tokill the hero. The hero turns it
around, you know, like that'sthose are the best ones with this.
It's like nope, but that's theintent. Like I guess I can't fault

(13:50):
them in a way. I don'tmean, but it's not inherently cinematic like
you've said, It's just it iswhat it is. I mean, that's
why they added the guns. Iguess, Like, all right, Steve,
well, we can't. Really youdon't. And again, you and
I both know it was not wecan't, it's you won't. You will
not allow us to let the fightgo further because you want to practice iketo

(14:13):
believably on screen. Yes, Andanyone who knows ikedo, if they tried
to lengthen an aiketo fight, they'dbe like, this is ridiculous. He
cares too much about his i ketohonor and practitionership of I feel like it
would get in the way of beingYeah, he would not let that get
in the He's not going to leta movie being entertaining get in the way
of him practicing I keto, whichI give him props for that, but

(14:37):
again, like it does not contributeto and or set up the audience for
an inherently entertaining action move. Anotherproblem is I mean, like we said,
he's used guns a lot in hisfilms lately. Yeah, the thing,
the fact is that it's really hardto make a gunfight cinematic. It's
really hard to make a gunfight,you know, very interesting to watch,

(15:00):
unless you're like John Wu or likeRobert Rodriguez, or arguably quite in Tarantino.
To make a gunfight interesting, youhave to I don't even I don't
know if I honestly, I wasworried you were gonna say Tarantino, I
said, arguably I would you arguethat or would you argue against it?
And I'd probably more argue against it. I'm thinking more Wu and Rodriguez.

(15:20):
I'm with you. I'm with youJohn for sure, Rodriguez for sure.
To make a gun like in hisfilms, the gunfights have been just not
interesting, not just kind of boring, very matter of fact. But then
again, that's a lot of actionfilms lately, at least there's not quick
cuts. True, But I meanSeagal doesn't do well with a gun.
He does well with his arms andhis fists, right, he is,

(15:43):
He's the bet to make your filmmore interesting. But again, the problem
is is unless you're throwing hundreds ofguys at him, there's no believable way.
You have to literally isolate the villainsuntil the end of the movie because
the moment they get into a fistfight with Sigal, all they have to
die. Yeah, that is theike too. Philosophy is I have to

(16:03):
incapacitate you before the fight gets started. Let's let's think about how the villains
have died in his films, evenback to the early films, they didn't
necessarily die by his hand. Theone guy died falling out a window onto
a fucking car. Uh, TommyLee Jones got blown up with the fucking
ship you know. I mean Tommyand Jones had his head Stu Mocker's style

(16:26):
thrown into a CRT TV. MichaelCaine just was it was there when it
exploded under Siege, so you seewhat I'm talking to you. Have we
talked about underseages too at this pointtoo? Yeah, we talked about it
with a with a but at thispoint in the timeline it's come out.
Oh, I don't know if weI don't think we have because this is
a no. This is after underseachto yeah, okay, and Undersease two

(16:48):
and I don't that's the thing,Like, I know, I just we
are complaining about things in Stephen Seagalmovies that I think are just like that's
what makes it a Stephen Seagal movie. Frankly, yeah, like really like
the moment the anticipation is not matchedby the climax, Like the anticipation of
Sigal getting his hands on the peopleis better than the moment he gets his

(17:08):
hands on him, because in everyone of these movies, when he does
get his hands on someone, itis literally like dead, like Henry Silva
is dead. The moment Sigal ashis hands on him like it's over,
like, well, how did yougot a question? I forgot? How
did how did William forsythe die?He got him with the corkscrew? Yeah
that's not aketo. Bill Sadler didn'tdie from didn't die. No, he

(17:32):
let him just he made him justthe blood bank, he did not.
I don't know. I guess Segalis just strange in that way. He's
just a strange guy. He's astrange I mean, I would love to
have seen the film where one hewould wear one of his Aketo moves basically
paralyzed a guy or something. Justtake the guy out like that. But
then again, you're right, it'snot a very long fight. It would

(17:53):
be one two minutes and it's overif that. I mean again, because
you saw the how quick he wasin this video. I mean it's not
even a minute. I mean,see what you will about Seagal and his
reputation within the action community without withinthe you know, the rumors about him,
uh, challenging Silvester still one orartful for you to fight and then
pussying out take all that away.The guy. Don't believe that though I

(18:15):
don't know. I wasn't there,um, but you know, I've heard
stories. But then again that's juststories, and I can't I can't.
I can't speak to the validity ofrumors. And that's why I say the
thing about Seagal that I do,which is, like, everybody has a
Seagal story now, even if likeand again, how much validity are there
to some of them. I'm surethere is a large amount of validity to

(18:36):
a lot of them, but thevalidity but there's also probably people who have
embellished encounters and other things. I'mnot defending him. But again, like
it's it's more, it's more storytelling, it's more it's more interesting to embellish
than to just say, you know. But at the same time, it's
also easier to do that to someonewho you know is not going to fight
back. Well, Heast in Russia, so he won't do anything. But
that's but but that's my point.Where would people be telling those stories about

(19:00):
someone who's currently working in the industrynot a clue, not a clue.
No, they wouldn't. I mean, that's why John, I mean,
that's why they're doing I mean,but they're like again, they're just trafficking
in these stories and it doesn't itAgain, I'm not bemoaning it. I
just don't understand the point. Yeah, I think it's just they're interesting to
listen to and they're interesting to tell. At some point. It's they're all
at some point they become or not. I'm not saying their lies. I'm

(19:22):
not saying their lies. I'm notsaying their truth. I'm saying they're just
they just make for an interesting tale. The only one that I can verify
is true is Richard's. Well,yeah, because he was there and you
know, we know Richard, right, I know Richard, Yeah, he
knows what he's talking about. Hedoes. You know, why would Richard
lie? And again like, I'mnot even sure, Richard, I'm not
even sure. I'm sure Richard wasso floored. I mean the way he

(19:42):
tells that story, I mean,what is he at the game? Well,
well, again that's my question.Some people it's just like a cloud
thing like, oh, you've gota Seagal story, Like yeah, let
me hear it. Yeah, yeah. But you know what, though Richard
didn't write this movie, this moviebeing in the glimmerman, but you know
what, this movie, Trevor,Yes, is pretty funny. It is

(20:03):
pretty entertaining. I mean, it'snot the best Segal film, but it's
it might be up there for methough, I'm gonna be honest with you,
I do it's one of those mostIt's one of those Seagal films where
I feel like he's actually charismatic asa person, Like there's more of his
there's more of a personality in hischaracter than his later films, Like he's
actually putting effort into making someone alikable protagonist. And also this is adding

(20:29):
a little more spirituality into into acharacter. Because I mean his character is
a Buddhist who does not use weaponsor fight because it's against for his religion.
Which you know, if you're acop, why would you be a
cop who doesn't like fighting? Butthat's right, And again that this movie
is the movie where Seagal is like, I'm not killing my villains anymore.
Yeah, And I mean, whichstuck for what like a couple of years.

(20:52):
Yeah, I didn't stick for thatlong. He's teamed up with keenan
Ivory Wayans who I think it's hilarious. I love Keen and Ivory brilliants.
And I think that might be thesmartest thing in this entire movie is and
and nobody has done it up untilthis point. You realize that given him
a comedic uh foil buddy, likea comedic sidekick they had like they tried
well. I think they needed thebalance, you know, the leniac.

(21:15):
But she wasn't funny, No,she was. She was Jimmis Kahl.
I guess they gave us Morris Chestnut. Yeah, Katherine Heigel didn't do much
an understeage too. Morris Chessnut wasHe's like a He's like a He's like
a pre fully formed version of thischaracter. Yeah, he's like, he's
where this character, he's where theKeenan Ivory Wayan's character ends up becoming.

(21:36):
I think they were, you know, they were trying to more humanized Seagal
and kind of you know, makeit a lot this movie. I mean,
it's not like a cop well it'sit's an action comedy, but it's
it's a it's a buddy cop movie. Yeah, but it's a little darker
than than most. Um. StevenSeagal, I mean has some great scenes
of fighting, like the scene atthe restaurant where he's trying to talk to

(21:56):
that guy and uh, the guy'son the phone try to take a reservation
and Seagal just barges in there andjust takes every guy out basically with his
hands, which is very interesting towatch. Um, I mean it's a
trope and Seagal films, you know, Henchman Number one, Henchmen or few.
They just run at him one ata time and he takes him out
one at a time instead of goingon with as a crowd. But yeah,

(22:18):
it's a it's a fun it's afun movie. That's one of Seagal's
more entertaining recent films recent you knowa relative term, uh you know,
I mean Keet and Ivery Wains reallyadds the kind of adds more energy and
more charisma to to the film.And Seagal is really trying in this film,

(22:41):
like he has a you know,he has a couple times where he's
trying to be you know a littlemore kind of joyful and a little more
you know, silly. I wouldagree, I think for me right now,
this is the best version of Seagalthat I've seen, and I agree
with that that's a Seagal that Iwould want to see more of. I
will, and I will tell youwhy. I think it's because the ability
for him to finally have someone thatcan play off of how fucking weird he

(23:07):
is. That's the thing about thismovie. They really are essentially just having
us have keenan Ivory Ways and StevenSeagal playing themselves. Yes, there is
no there is no pretension here,Like that's what this is. It's Steven
Seagal kind of just playing a parodyof himself, like of the characters that
he's played well, which is effectivelyjust him in every movie. It's almost

(23:30):
if I'm kind of calling out Seagaltropes right as a character. Right,
like the scene where they're in theuh the herbal store you know Chinese mysticism
shop, which mysticism store and theand the you know, you know all
these healing Uh what was it?What was that one healing? Like,
um, penis, go, dearpenis. He's like it's it's like it's
good for vitality, you know,He's like, what is this, dear

(23:52):
penis? Oh Jesus Christ, that'swhat it's getting. Like it's kind of
like it's like, yeah, weknow that he's into this, like you
know, Eastern mysticism shit. Likeagain, it's like shit as in like
the very like pop culturized version thatSteven Seagal is kind of like his neighbor,
his neighorw Jackets and all that,like that, the stuff that he's
known for. They kind of theykind of make fun of it in this

(24:14):
movie. Appreciate at Sigal, tohis credit, goes along with it.
Yeah, he's great. He's kindof hell go, he's kind of playing
in this. I like, andhe's come to play, and I like
that it's not him. This isSigall actually, you know, putting an
effort into being more likable as asas an action star. He's having a
good time. Unfortunately, well,unfortunately, the film just didn't do well

(24:34):
and that's began to decline. Ithink of this film haven't done better,
we would have seen more of thisSeagal. I will say, I think
the big problem between the movie thatI wanted this to be in the movie
that this is is because of howabsolutely convoluted the story is. His story

(24:56):
is so convoluted. The name ofthe movie has literally nothing to do with
the plot of the movie. Itis just the I mean name with which
they call Steven Seagal's character. Becauseagain, he's not just a cop.
He is a former CIA operative whowas known as the Glimmerman because he could
move through the underbrush so quickly thatthe only thing you would see before you

(25:18):
die. Yeah yeah, so likethat, That to me signifies that they
didn't even have a clue what todo with this movie's plot. It's so
convoluted. It's really funny that thebiggest character description you would get is in
the fucking trailer. Yeah, theytalk about him more. They talk about
his character in the name more inthe trailer than they do in the entire
film. Yeah, it's like akind of like an offhanded comment in the

(25:41):
movie. It's like, oh,he's you know, the glimmer he's the
glimmerman. Well, and here andhere's the thing. Like the movie starts
out in a point where it's likeyou have Cole and Campbell, Seagal and
Wands going to find a serial killerwho murders entire households, and that ends
up being a total mcguffin, andit leads to smuggling of chemical weapons into

(26:03):
the United States from Russia that arebeing sold and the reason the family died
is because they knew too much.It's like they should have they should not
have introduced this, like, oh, it's actually Russian terrorists, Like it
should have just been the two ofthem searching for a serial killer, because
that like, why, why isn'tthat enough? I guess what happens is

(26:25):
they bring in the Stephen Tabolowsky character, Tablowski character and immediately just nothing.
Once scene later he's gone, yeah, I'm like and that's where the whole
Segal not killing people because his characterwas originally supposed to die, and then
Segal said, I don't want tokill him, so they had to fucking
rewrite shit to make his character live. And then there's like overdubbing in the

(26:45):
movie. Why even have that plotto begin with? If you're gonna make
it, they made it seem likethis was going to be the main plot.
They're looking for this, you know, serial killer, and that's the
main plot. I be like,oh, okay, that's interesting. Oh
Stephen Tabalowsky is a ser my god, he's got him cornered in a church.
I mean, how's he gonna thisis only thirty minutes into the film.
If that, yeah, yeah,and one see later Stevens character has

(27:07):
completely gone from the film and nowwe're onto a new thing. But it's
somehow still sideways. It somehow stillis tied into the original plot. Well,
and then we have this other theplot where Stevens took all Um goes
into the school because this boy isthis kid is holding this class hostage because
I think his girlfriend broke up withhim or something like that. Um,

(27:30):
And don't they try to make thatinto somewhat of a plot later, Well,
that that character ties into the dad. He's the son of the dad
who was also doing the killings.It's again, it's like super convoluted for
it's very fun, no reason likeit. But why make him a school
shooter of all things? I don't. I don't because I guess they were

(27:53):
trying to get rid of it wasn'tthe whole thing they were trying to get
rid of him. I don't know. Again, Like the movie is so
I don't want understand. The movieis so convoluted, and it gets it
ends up being that just this localbusinessman, corrupt asshole played by Bob Gunton
of all people. Is Bob Gunn, you know, he's the villain,
right right, But he's great,I mean, Bob Gunn's guy's Yeah,

(28:17):
but he ends up being the mainvillain of the movie, and the information
they get on him comes from BrianCox, of all people. The Brian
Cox role in this movie was originallysupposed to be played by Tommy Lee Jones,
which would have been fucking great andhilarious. Yeah. I love Brian
Cox. Oh imagine Tommy Lee Jones. That role would have been so really
because Brian Cox, his character islike just wears a robe around the pool,

(28:38):
you know, kind of just yeah, he's so good though, he's
an ultra rich sleeves bag. Yeah, you know, having other people do
his dirty work. And I wouldhave loved Josee Tommy Leo that role.
Bryan Cox did a great job.But yeah, I mean it's it's that's
also convolute because they have one guyrecording to another guy, were into another
guy to kill these other people.Yeah, it's what the fuck? Yeah?

(28:59):
I again, it's like they neededone they needed one more pass on
the script because there's just some kindof these weird like you could take the
character Stephen Tobalowski out of the moviecompletely. He's about he's a mcguffins,
he's there, he's there. Onlyget the problem is with that character.
If you're going to introduce a characterthat's a false killer or a one of

(29:22):
one of two killers because he's readHarry, Yeah, you can't introduce him
and then get rid of him thenext scene. You got to give the
audience a couple scenes to kind ofespecially see what he's doing and kind of
lead us down the wrong path.I mean, especially if you're using an
actor like Stephen Tobalowski. Right,Well, that's my most I mean,
it's just can play this kind ofcharacter. Yeah, they didn't have to

(29:45):
make this. They could have actuallymade him the character and put that scene
at the very end of the film, and I wonder, because there is
that kind of weird connection where it'slike Segal, like, doesn't Brian Cox,
no Segal, they know Seagal is. Isn't there something about there's something
about that right on that? Yeah? I mean, I mean we're not
even talking about the keen and iveryWayne's aspect of the film. Super weird,

(30:08):
What a weird what a weird character? And he's obsessed with Casablanca,
Like, were they trying to makelike coded a little like no, no,
they trying to make a rush Hourmeet seven kind of thing. I
don't know, Well, this isthis is pre both of those. Was
this prey rush Hour? Rush Hourcame out about ninety seven, Yeah,
but but seven came out ninety five. That's the thing I think. I

(30:30):
think the rush Hour thing I don'tthink is earned. But I would agree
with you that there again, that'swhy I was saying, like it feels
like it needed another pass, becausethere again you said that there's some dark
there's the darker aspect of the movieThe Serial Killer, the Family Man.
Don't forget at the beginning of themovie there is even the thing where Seagal
is possibly being investigated for being theserial killer because the woman that dies was

(30:53):
his former wife. Yeah, andlike that they can go nowhere with that,
They go nowhere with the framing aspectwhere the killers trying to make Segal
look like the bad guy. Doesn't. It's like you think they're going to
make it a major part of theplot. It's like, Okay, now
Segal has to clear his good namewith the with the precinct and but no,
let's clear up in like what fiveminutes. Yeah. Again, it's
it's like they it's like they justhad all these ideas and said, let's

(31:17):
just throw Instead of taking two orthree ideas and fully walking down the path
and developing them completely, they tooklike eight ideas and just crammed them into
this movie because oh, on topof everything else, this movie is only
ninety minutes, and it manages tosomehow tie itself into a really complex not
really really pushed it, really stretchedout shit to make it ninety minutes,

(31:41):
Like without the without the Teven Tabulaskiscene or a lot of the other extraneous
seasons, movie would have been anhour if that. And again, like
they could have really like taken someof these like ideas, like the serial
killer idea, and really run withit and given given the movie some like
emotional stakes and something, I mean, something more than what they gave us
now, which is like it's likea serial killer movie with like a crime

(32:05):
mob underworld movie with a Steven Seagalmovie plus a comedy and it's like one
of these things works and the otherthree don't. Really. Seagal his past
films, he's never really dealt witha serial killer. He's deale with mob.
Yeah, he's dealt with a mob, drug dealers, gang members.
A serial killer is such a goodpremise, and it's a great premise that

(32:25):
is a fantastical That's what I'm saying. And there is a there is a
terrific, exciting film in this filmthat wants to get out so badly,
but it's hampered by such convoluted shitlike Stephen Tablowski being a red herring and
you know, the attempted framing ofSeagal and you know all that other shit.

(32:46):
It just doesn't go and ultimately itgoes nowhere, and the conclusion of
the film being well, there wasanother serial killer who was killing people that
were also associated with this company thatyou were running, and this company is
smuggling in chemical weapons and that's whyyou're killing them is because they know.

(33:07):
It's just it's so fucking lame.It's just me lame. Answer me this
question. Did there need to beBob Gunton and and Brian Cox? Did
there need to be those? That'swhat I'm saying. Couldn't they just had
one guy, They could have combinedit into one character, or they could
have just not had that character inthe movie, and it's just been the
Stephen Tobalowski character. They added charactersupon characters upon characters too. They have

(33:29):
scenarios that they made. They madeproblems for themselves that they made worse by
trying to explain it in another waythat forces them to open up. But
that's a problem with making movies,like you really have like four or five
boxes you should be playing with,and the more boxes you add in,
the more pieces you have to dealwith. And at some point, like
in this movie, you have twelveboxes open and half of the pieces from

(33:52):
each box, but none of themare complete. There are no fucking full
ideas are not part of this movie'smakeup at all. If you were going
to make Stephen Tubalowski the main serialkiller. I don't think it would have
been a good idea for Stephen Seagalto kill him or fight him, because
who's going to believe that Stephen Tablowskiis going to stand up to Stephen Seagal.
I mean, no, no offenseto Stephen Tabalowski. But Tobalowski tried

(34:14):
to convince Seagal to let his characterdie by saying he was a miserable human
being who by dying would receive redemptionand reincarnation, and Segal was like,
okay, sure, so there's youranswer. But again they didn't do a
The way Tubolowski played it in theone scene he was in was terrific.
Yeah, he's great, I thought, Tobolowski to de gra I'm like,
that is a villain. I wantto see more. That scene at the

(34:36):
end would have been so fucking interestingto see because this is a killer who
just is a miserable son of abitch who is just guarante you know,
he thinks that, you know,the only way to redeem himself is to
die and all that shit. Thatwould have been more interesting than just two
businessmen hiring someone to kill people.Yeah. Now it's let me ask you.
If they'd taken Keaty and Iverwain's outof the film, do you think

(34:58):
it would have changed anything? Idon't. And guy, I would like
this movie as much as I did. You know, but what it would
The plot still have gone as itwent without Keenan and everyone's sure, sure,
okay, but you ask. ButI could ask the same question about
Indiana Jones and the Raiders of theLost Dark. Well, that's that's a
common that's a common agreement about thefilm. Is that just take if Steven,
if it ain't off Jones hadn't evenbeen in the film, they still

(35:21):
would have gotten the Ark of theCovenant, they still would have opened,
and they still would have died.So it kind of makes that movie genius
though. Yeah. But but HarrisonFord is so charismatic and likable and he
just he's just a fun guy towatch do his thing. I think without
without Keenan Ivory Wayans in this movie, nothing would have If you're talking from
a sole plot standpoint, yeah,nothing, I mean nothing would have changed.
I'm talking about the other stuff.This movie is a complete like mess

(35:45):
without Yeah, that's I agree withthat. Part. Yeah, I'm just
talking plot standpoint. Yeah, hedoes does nothing to add to the plot
or detract from the plot of this. He has a couple of scenes where
he's in danger, like his housegets set on fire by the killer and
he's trying to you know, that'sblow up and it throws him out of
a window. Yeah, which,yeah, right, Like he would have
survived that ship. But Steven Um, he adds humor to the film.

(36:07):
He gives Sigal somewhat a bit ofhumanity in the film because they're playing off
of each other. They're playing offof each other very well, and I
think I wanted to see a littlebit more of that strength wise, and
I wanted Steve Keen and Everyween's broughtinto the plot more like I wanted him
to do more than he did,which is just be you know, the
comedic. You know, he's asidekick, sidekick that you know just occasionally

(36:27):
does something. You know, I'mwith you. No, he's he's he's
a better he's a better actor,he's a better action star. He's he's
a better physical person than to justput him as, you know, just
a comedic foil sidekick. He's alot better than that. I agree.
I agree, and um, it'sit's a shame it's a Nike And that's
like part of the problem with thismovie is it's so such a convoluted movie

(36:51):
that they like really wrapped it inso many knots, and they spent so
much time wrapping themselves in knots thatthey could have spent that time doing anything
else, like giving Seagal and keenanIvory Wain's more time to you know,
bounce jokes off of one another orjust anything. It's it's such a shame,
it's such I mean, and Iwant to see more of Seagal being
jokey and humorous and shit like that, because you know, I think people

(37:14):
we want it really wanted to seethat. They wanted to not have Seagal
be so kind of serious about himself. They wanted him to kind to lighten
up a bit. And that's wherethis movie, in bits and pieces,
really shine. Yeah. I agree, it's very much the movie that I
wanted from Seagal. It's not allthe way there, but it's closer than
anything else has been to the moviethat I think would have really would have

(37:36):
really had some sustainability for Seagal's careerbecause again, like you mentioned, you
can only do the stoic, seriousaction guy so much. You can do
it in multiple genres. You canbe Clinis wouldn't do it in Dirty Harry,
and do it in the Westerns andyou know, do the Eiger Sanction
and shit like that. Yeah,but Seagal, I don't think he has
that range or he never got offeredthose product projects when yeah, and so

(38:00):
like that's not him. But whenyou see him in this movie, you
realize, like, like you said, you can see it, it's there,
it's not all there. It's notas much there as I would want
it to be or you would wantit to be. But you get to
see a version of Segal in thismovie that I think is closer to what
I kind of wished he was ina lot of these There is a there's
a seed that is planted and impromptlydestroyed. Yeah, well, um,

(38:22):
yeah, can we talk about theautopsy scene because that's the scene that's been
in my head since I've seen it, and it was just so fucking weird
what Segal does in that scene.Um, they're trying to I think they're
trying to identify the body or whateverthe girls and Segal just takes the scalpel,
cuts the girl's breast open and takesout her implant. Yeah and by
the way, the implant is isclean and untouched. Right. Well,
yeah, that is really really fuckingweird. I mean, I don't think

(38:45):
cops do that, Like, they'renot. They're not, they're not the
coroner. No, no, Imean like and he it was it was
like it seemed like it was avery clinical slice into her brain to give
me that. Yeah, and justhe does it so quickly give me that.
I'm like, have you done thisbefore? Well, but that's the
thing, like again, they theydon't lean on that in the movie as

(39:07):
much as they should. Him beinglike a former ex like secret like black
ops agent, they should lean onthat more in the movie, and they
don't. And you know, thatmight be one of the ways that the
movie is kind of like subtly noddingand like winking. But I don't know
some of this again, Seagal doingthings like that is just weird, right,
they don't. They also don't leanon the his family very much,

(39:29):
right, Yeah, Like the threatto his family isn't touched upon very much,
Like we didn't even know much abouthis family. Why give him a
family. He could just be aloaner, like, he could just be
a man who wants to be byhimself, trying to and you could have
still made him a Buddhist, buta Buddhist who's in like solitude, who
just wants to be I think itjust speaks to the lack of foresight that

(39:50):
the people who made this movie hadin the idea that, like, you
don't have to have Steven Seagal havinga love interest. No, I mean,
frankly, none of the movies thatwe've seen with him having a love
interest have been successful. Not really. Eric Leniac feels very yea, they
forced their relationship with him and EricLannia getting Understege and when she convice she's
gone, she's real gone. InUnderseage too, they don't even attempt to

(40:13):
have a love interest except they it'sreal weird. Are you talking about the
bartender leader? Oh? No,I was more just talking about the fact
that they kind of make Catherine Hi. It's really weird. It's real weird,
and she was like sixteen or seventeenof the sixteen at the time.
I don't like to drink alone.That's my favorite line in that whole movie.
Oh god, well you don't liketo drink I don't like to drink

(40:35):
alone. Yeah, well that doesn'thave alcohol and it's dumb bitch that doesn't
have any alcohol in it. Well. Fine, Catherine Ega is such a
such a such a perfect foil forSteven Seagal as actress. Well, I
mean because she can play the smartass. I was being facetious. She's
a very bad actress. I donot find don't find. I don't find

(40:58):
anything i've seen her in to bemildly even entertaining. I'm sorry, I
thought I thought she was fine andtoo. I did like the back and
forth mean Sigal and the bartender atthe one the little small part of the
film. I like when Sigale wasmaking that cake in the galley, Yeah,
and then stops because the terrorist it'smy, it's my it's my niece's
favorite cake. She loves it.Man, he's like a he's like a

(41:20):
ja. He's like, you know, that's what he is. He's like
one of those like jazz guys,but instead of jazz, he just talks
his bullshit. He's even sigalled bullshit, talking his Akido is his jazz.
Break it down for me, mybaby, Tell tell me, Lieutenant Jim
Campbell, what are we looking for? Oh, I'm the Glimmerman. Yeah,
I mean that's what I will.You know, friend of the podcast,

(41:44):
Mike White always makes the joke aboutis that the movie where Steven Sigal
plays the Jewish detective the Glimmerman,Jonathan Glimmerman, Doctor, doctor Glimmerman,
doctors glimm that's my that was Yeah, that's that's our our joke. But
it's like when I call Spiderman Spiderman, he's he's right, Mike White,
Yeah, that's what. Yeah,this movie, this movie's okay though,

(42:05):
Yeah, I mean it's not.It's it's a more tolerable Sigualam than we've
been watching. Uh like, wellit's more recent stuff. Sure, I
would say this is this is kindof a logical progression of his It's not
as violence or or necessarily as aslike extremely dark. It's as barely an
action movie as is marked Mark forDeath or hard to Kill films. It's

(42:28):
very lightheart. It's like they weretrying to make seven into a buddy cop
movie. Yeah, but again theymissed it completely. That's the that's the
movie that they should have made.A serial killer shouldn't have to have a
committee, right, you know,he's a single A serial killer is a
singular. Well sometimes it's sometimes it'smore people, but they don't go through
a fucking committee to kill people,like Brian Cox doesn't have to confer with

(42:52):
Bob Gutton for the one guy tokill people. Yeah, it was,
it was weird. It's it's fun. I don't again, I don't know.
I don't know why, but whatyou know what they were thinking.
You know, Kevin Broadben his script. I would love to read his script
on this movie because I would loveto know how close it is to the
real the script versus the movie,because again I Sigal comes in and changes

(43:14):
things based on what he loves tochange things. Well, I mean,
hey, he's an idiosyncratic guy.I get it. Yeah, he's I
can't give someone a hard time forbeing weird. And this is the industry
that weirdo's work in. Well,I want to believe that Broadbent's script is
more of what we want. Idon't know. I doubt it. I
don't know how to get a holdof him. Mister broaden. You know,

(43:36):
I would love to just tackle alot of writers with Sigal films and
just that they have similar stories tofucking Richards. Yeah. Probably at least
the people who worked with him earlyon worked with him being you know,
hell, we can we start anew podcast talking to the writers of the
films and call it the Cigal thatcould have been. I don't know,
but I just this, I mean, the film just really You're right,

(43:57):
it needed a lot of more gothrough the an extra pass or two.
Again, there's a good movie there. It's a great it's a great concept.
It's an interesting it's interesting concept.But this could have been one of
Stephen Seagal's best films, the goodof I do not disagree with. He
would have been the film that changedpeople's perceptions of Seagal. This could have

(44:20):
been the film that totally that totallyput his career in a different, better
path. But unfortunately, I mean, he was just he was sabotaged by
a terrible, convoluted plot and notgiving not giving him more of the comic
foils, you know ability. Itjust needed to be rewritten one like,
it just needed a pass on thelike on the actual story. The meat

(44:44):
of this movie because, like,I think the interact, like the interactions
with the characters are good, they'rejust needed to be more of them the
act. There needs to actually beaction in this movie. How's that?
Yeah, there's one scene he's alittle bit country, I'm a little bit
of rock and roll. That seemsgreat, But it's about as much as
you get pretty much. I mean, they showed the scene in the fucking

(45:04):
trailer for the movie. Yeah,you've pretty much seen the best stuff in
the trailer. Really not not,you really have? I mean, I
know we talked about this film beingone of stud gals better films. I
think that's more of the what couldhave been at it's more of what could
have been the what is is alsothe fact that most of Seagal's movies are
not good. They're not traditionally good. They're fun to watch because they're maybe

(45:25):
not great. But like this,I would say that this hughes closest to
a film that mainstream audiences would findentertaining and funny. Yes, because it's
not as bloody or violent as hisother films. Um it tries to be
more audience friendly. It's funny,it's trying to because you have well,

(45:45):
I mean you and I both agreethat his earliest stuff was really only made
for a certain audience. Yeah,for sure, and it was not it
was not a wide appeal. Imean they made money, they made a
lot of money. Action movie becausebut that's her action movie fans. Yeah.
I mean, like, let's notkid ourselves. We can't see Seagal
and like romantic comedies or shit likethat. But we don't know. I

(46:07):
don't know, come on, wecould play a character in a romantic comedy
as a lead. I don't thinkso. I don't know. He could,
he could play the he could playthe love interests um jealous ex boyfriend.
I mean at this point, he'splaying somebody's dad. Yeah, I
mean he's he's he's just the Idon't know. I just what could have
been? Man, what could havebeen? This could have been something?

(46:29):
Just this. Though this movie feelsparticularly bad and how like not fun it
is, and it hurts, man, it hurts. Yeah. I mean
again for Steven Seagal, I don'treally feel that bad because he's still ultimately
is a massively successful movie star.True. I mean, who did have
a fair amount of hits. Imean, you know, oh yeah,

(46:52):
shitload of hits. Yeah, butI mean this was just one of his
I mean no, if I meanon Deadly Ground was a miss too.
I'm I mean this kind of beganthe downfall, you know, this was
part of the downfall of of hisof his trajectory. Yeah, I mean,
this is this is kind of thisis essentially it. There's one more
movie, Fired down Below, whichdid even worse than this movie did,

(47:15):
So, yeah, that'll be funto watch. Well that movie is that
movie is? It has again,it has it's it has kind of its
own problems. So yeah, Imean, I mean, considering the next
film we're going to talk about isa film where he's barely even in it.
What End of a Gun? Ohno, No, the next um
classic sicall film we're gonna talk aboutwhat Fire down Below? Executive what is

(47:36):
an executive decision? No, executivedecision? Can't is technically before this one?
Oh sorry, then let's put thispart out the next So, so
Trevor on the next episode of Onsagal, what are we to End of a
Gun? It's it's literally cartels,but not cartels. It's the one that
has Florian Piersi Junior in it.But he's it's it's the movie he's in
that's not killing Salazar. Wait havewe watched it yet? Yes, I

(47:59):
have the episode edited and ready togo. That's how I know what it
is. How sad, that's howsad this is. It's the movie where
he shoots that woman at the endof the movie that she's about to betray
him, and he like, whoa, that's the one that's marks her ass
at the end of the movie.That's I remember that one. Yeah,
I remember that one. That's actuallythe somewhat decent fight scene in the garage
at the end. Or was thatYeah, that's Cartel's, isn't it.

(48:21):
I don't know any That's what we'retalking about, End of a Gun.
So so so take us home,my friend, all right, next time
we will be talking about the StevenSeagal action thriller, End of a Gun.
It's it's a movie. It's it'sdefinitely a movie. It was shot
on it was shot, it wasedited, it was sound. It was
definitely a movie. It was evenreleased somehow was written. The actor said,

(48:43):
the lines there was a script ofbeing written might be a little much.
It's let's just put it this way. When you listen to that episode,
you will hear us having a veryhard time distinguishing whether or not we've
already seen this movie from another moviethat we have seen. So yeah,
it's it's very it's rough. Theyyeah, they melt together. It may
if not for the fact that ChinaSalesman exists, it might be the worst

(49:04):
one we've watched so far. Ohgod, nothing will nothing will be China
Salesman. Not a fucking thing willbe Chinamen. I don't know, I
don't know. It's tempting the universe, Trevor. But yeah, I dare
I dare the steams like all universeto have a film worse than China Salman.
My fucking dare the teams like alluniverse have a wors from you know
what? We was a fucking abortion. That movie is real bad. So
until then, Trevor, Where canpeople find you? You can find me

(49:27):
on Twitter and Instagram at bad Vertigo, and you can also find me from
time to time on my lovely cohost podcast, The Culture Cast and Chris
Where can people find you? Cstatue dot com, cstac hiw dot com.
That's my link tree. Go there. That's for all the things I
work on that's where you can findthem. Uh yeah. As for this
show on sagale dot com, that'swhere you can go to find the show.

(49:49):
Like Trevor said, next episode,we're gonna be talking about End of
a Gun, which is a newerStephen Seagal movie from twenty sixteen. So
until then, make sure to checkout the next episode. I guess