21: The Patriot (1998)

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
Weird way. Hello when welcome tothe podcast. Your podcasts are all Thanks

(00:52):
Steven Sagal. I am Trevor Grumbleof course as usual, and with me
as always is my lovely co hostChristue. It has been quite some time
since we've done this, Trevor.It has been we our Twitter followers started
to notice, and we're not happy. I think they've noticed a lot quicker
than they've reject to us. ButI think also, yeah, it's been

(01:17):
a while since we've done this show. We actually have some episodes recorded that
are chronologically after this one, butwe had kind of skipped over doing this
one kind of by accident, whichis just funny because I think of all
the things that we've talked about andwatched on this show, this might be
the most unintentionally topical of all thethings we've ever watched in a way that

(01:41):
feels like, I'm not going tosay that this movie is great, but
what's shocking about this movie is it'skind of aged better in retrospect or more
horrifyingly, because in a lot ofways, you could remake this movie now
the exact You could remake this moviewhole cloth for the most part, and
people be like, oh, man, how topical it's It's crazy. This

(02:04):
is Stephen Sagall versus Ruby Ridge.Is what this movie is. Yeah,
that's not the way it was pitched. I don't know how it was pitched,
but yeah, folks. On thisepisode of the on Sagal podcast,
we're back at it again talking aboutnineteen ninety eights, directed by Dean Semler,
based on a book. Not reallythough, but there's a virus in
the book, so there's a virusin the movie. Talk about Steven Sagall's
It's Stephen Sagall's first DTV features.So this is the this is the big

(02:29):
one. This is the one thatputs all the other ones into motion.
We're talking about nineteen ninety eight's ThePatriot. In a country of rugged beauty
where people live close to the land, Doctor Wesley McLaren has found a home.
But even in this peaceful place,there are forces which threaten life.

(02:53):
You know what I'm talking about,man, This is I'm talking about the
CIA YEA forces which have unleashed adeadly virus. Got blood pressure is to
forty over one twenty, respiration thirtyin shallow. This guy looks pretty bad
too. How you feeling now hehas become the town's only hope. I

(03:15):
mean, response team here immediately,everybody in the moon since now can we
best? People are right? Butwith the crisis spreading, how long before
the people are gonna start dying?One or two days? With the danger
growing, do you realize what you'vedone? You've opened Pandora's box. Something
in his daughter's immunity, maybe it'sgenetic, has become everyone's only chance to

(03:39):
survive. We got that girl.If you got a shoot her, block
the whole You're making a big mistake. Now we can do this the easy
way or the hard way. Ithink it's gonna be the hard way.
I'm not a terrorist, a doctor. I'm here to help you. Steven

(04:18):
Sagal, I worked it, doctor, Let's get with it. The Patriot
so, like I mentioned. Directedby Dean Semler, it stars Steven Sagal
Guyard Sartayne, otherwise known as oneof the two guys who's in all the
Earnest movies. Uh yeah, whichis fucking crazy. Well it's crazy is

(04:40):
when I saw him and I heardhis voice, I was like, oh
my god, it's the guy fromErnest. Yeah, it is the guy
from Ernest. Also stars l Q. Jones, Silas we or Mitchell,
But the one that I think weboth obviously want to point out Camilla Bell,
who ends up having a rather longcareer. Uh still kind of working,
maybe not as much as she usedto. Yeah, but she's essentially
a child in this movie. Iguess most people, probably our age remember

(05:06):
her from Lost World where she's alittle girl on the beach who gets eaten
by the copies or gets attacked bythem. I guess we never never.
They never say if she dies orno. No, they said they said
she was fine, yeah, andthey mentioned in the act scene she's surviving.
So the movie is all about stevenSagall playing a former military researcher government

(05:30):
researcher immunologists who lives in Montana.And out in Montana there are prepper guys
and survivalists and white supremacists and whateverthese guys are supposed to be, which
I'm assuming is kind of a mixof all of that. Like I alluded
to with it being a Ruby Ridgething, steven Sagall's town of Ennis is

(05:50):
close to this encampment or colony ofpreppers, and they take it upon themselves
to bite the local government. That'smaking their lives harder than they need to.
And that's again the Ruby Ridge ofit all, the Waco of it
all. And so what we endup having is Steven Sagall, an immunologist,

(06:11):
trying to figure out why, allof a sudden, in their small
Montana town, all these people aredying from a very serious disease or virus
that kills them more or less withinlike a day, is what it seems
like. And so Steven Sagall andhis pals, including a rancher and a
government agent, have to stop thevirus from spreading and also get a handle

(06:33):
on the white supremacist So I'm curious. I know you've never seen this,
as I hadn't either, But whatdid you think of The Patriot? It
wasn't terrible, right, I knowwhat? It was one of the more
entertaining Sigall films that I watched.And it's a pretty I mean, it's
pretty standard fair. It's basically Segallwants to do outright right, Yeah,

(06:58):
Sagal versus COVID in a lot ofways. Yeah, Like you know,
if if you know, if Outbreak, the Wolfgang Peterson film had been Stephen
Sigall won, it probably would havebeen boring as hell, but are weird
But yeah, I mean he playsthis kind of immunologist who doesn't believe in
big pharma. Right, he makeshe makes out a point in in one

(07:20):
scene. Uh, he's treating thisfriend of his. Uh what was he
being treated for? Do you rememberit? All? I forget, But
they use what they colloquially refer toin the movie so many times, and
I don't think this term has anage. Well, red medicine, red
medicine. Yeah, oh my god, what's the red in reference to Native
American people? Yes, it literallyis exactly what you think it is.

(07:43):
And Steven Siagall again trying to relateto the Native American people and feeling really
fucking he just looks like a guywho wears moccasins and you know, tassels
and thinks that, oh you know, oh how brother, I understand the
plight to your people, Like,dude, go away, you're from Detroit
A lot of man. You've gotthat at the gift shop? Yeah,
bro, Like it's it always ringsso hollow because this is what is this

(08:07):
the second time or the third timehe's done this? Well, he played
the uh, the medicine guy inthat one NFL grown No, no,
well yeah, that but the oneswhere he's in uh China, oh,
attrition, the one that the oneof the Attritionian one of those DTV ones
that we we did, like yeah, yeah that he played a medicine man

(08:28):
at in that one. Uh butyeah, he's never Steve call just really
hates Western medicine. I guess so, and the US government apparently, yeah,
he hates he I mean, whyis he not on the militia,
I mean shit, I mean heprobably would be now if if if this
movie were made in twenty a twentyfour, he'd probably be the guy leading
the militia exactly. And the militia'sviewpoints aren't terribly well established other than they

(08:54):
hate the government, right, theyhave no manifesto to to me, they
seem like a pretty shitty militia,Like the government could easily take these guys
out. Yeah, well well likeyes, but no, but yes,
that's the thing, because we seelater on in the movie that they're clearly
adept at killing people. But wewhen you see them initially, it's like

(09:18):
effectively like three shipping containers stacked ontop of each other turned into bunkers.
Like it's not even Ruby Ridge.It's not even Waco. It's like stupid
Waco. And to your point,like on top of everything else, these
morons take take the virus internally sothat they can go and spread it exactly,
but they don't realize that they don'thave the anti virus. The anti

(09:41):
virus doesn't work, so now they'reall infected and they go then to try
to kill the military and the medicalpeople to get the antidote, which also
doesn't work. It's there to saytheir inept is to be kind. I
mean, he could very well bethe same character from the Earnest movies.
Yeah, right, he got gotradicalized by accident. Bobby said, you

(10:05):
know, Bobby just said, man, you're too radical, and he just
went off and did his own thingand left Bobby at the there's a scene
in this movie where he sounds likeAlex Jones. He's like, well,
the Scott they've got worldwide consparisation andthey're scanning the bar coaches when we go
to the grocery store, and whydon't you Joy meet You seem like a
smart guy, and it's like thisis just shit. Like Alex Jones probably

(10:26):
creamed his pants when he saw thismovie. Alex Jones was like, this
is porn man. Yeah, Imean it's the kind of shit that he
parts now. I mean that's whyI said it's like so topical, because
the villain in this movie is literallya right wing supremacist, like a fascist.
Like he makes it very unclear hishis giant, his huge plan was

(10:48):
to infect himself and to hopefully,you know, kill off millions of Americans.
He didn't really think his situation orthe plan very well, because what
is your game? Do you wantto become like a martyr or something?
Yeah, I don't. I don'tget it. I guess they're doing it
so that they can like show thatthey can one up the government, because

(11:09):
I mean when they're in court,he's like, I don't understand why the
US government, Kid, it's okayfor them to come on to my land
and take away my you know.I mean you hear it all the time
now, I mean you hear thisshit constantly now and again, Like for
me, when I look at thatscene in this movie, like again,
they don't go far enough, iswhat it feels like. To your point,
It's like why why aren't they reallyspouting some like really crazy like rac

(11:33):
shit, go full fuck, gofull war man, I don't get it.
It's like it or and I heara villain anyway, just say the
weirdest shit you can. Yeah,And I guess I don't get why they
didn't push it far enough because again, like they have the opportunity. I
look, guy Ard Sartaine is notany more physically imposing than most of the

(11:54):
villains that Steven Siegall has to dealwith. He normally the people that he
ends up having to kill at theend of his movies are not the physical
threat. They're like the mental threat. They employed all the other people.
I mean thinking of like someone likeBill Sadler, right, not a physical
threat, or Henry Silva not eminentlya threat. But again, you see
how quickly Segal kills them. Imean, the way he kills Guyard Sartain

(12:18):
in this movie is fucking brutal.It's brutal. There's not a lot of
action in this movie. I thinkthat's the other thing that's probably the biggest
failing of this movie is it's liketwo minutes of Segal well including his martial
arts ability. Yeah yeah, yetthat showcase here, it's mostly like guns
and shit, like that, whichwe don't. Really I don't associate with

(12:39):
Steven Segal at all. I don't. He's not a gun guy. I
think he kills three people with agun in this movie maybe, And that's
right after he takes a wine glass, knocks the cup of the top off
and stabs it into Guyard Sartayne's head, which is like I had to rewind
it a couple times because like whatthe book just happened, because he just

(13:01):
kills him, just dead, andthen like, wow, uh, well,
I'm glad that the villain that themovie is building up the entire time
is just dead. Now. Yeah, Well he wasn't really that imposing of
a villain. I didn't think.No, I mean the other guys Silas
Weir Mitchell playing Pogue is more ofa physically imposing character. But it always
just feels like they don't let anybodybe even on Segal's level, even close.

(13:26):
No, well, that's we've talkedabout this before. It's it's it's
what Segal wants. Clearly. Henever takes a hit, never even falls
to the ground. He's always incontrol. Yeah, he's always he's always
having he always has the high ground. You know, everybody else is Anakin,
he's Obi Wan. Yeah, yeah, And I really what I really
don't like about this movie is thatthat they have leaned so far into it

(13:50):
this time that the movie essentially hasno action. It is a it is
an action movie, sure, butlike you said, like the stuff that
you're ostensibly here for, this moviedoesn't have a lot of no It's it's
more based on tension and maybe alittle bit of mystery as to how they're
gonna how they're gonna solve this.I guess by the way the way they

(14:13):
solve it is just eye rollingly fuckingridiculous. It's it feels very daus ex
machina, like we're like probably likedayu's X Native American, Like, it's
so fucking lazy. It's just reallylazy. It should tip you off,
though, when we first talked aboutsteven Sagall not trusting American medicine, Well,

(14:35):
did you really tip you off onhow the how it's gonna end with?
You know? It was the plantsall along, that was the cure.
Yeah, this this just a layergea. This yeah, Chrismin's tea
from Flowers. It's delicious. Ireally didn't think the tea that his daughter
serves him at the beginning of themovie was going to be the way the
movie gets out of it's its cornerthat it's backed itself into. But sure,

(14:56):
that's pretty lazy. The matter humblewasn't true with a fertilizer. Well
that's I don't get any of thismovie, Like, what what was the
point? I was expecting Segal toturn the turn to the camera at some
point and go remember on on deadlyground. This is what I expected him
to do, his environmental message,and this this is him. Yeah,
this is him preaching again. Yeah, this is him preaching about the evils

(15:18):
of western medicine. I don't getit, Like, why do you,
why, Steven Sagall, do youtake it upon yourself to constantly make the
movies about something? And I'm notsaying movies don't need to be about something,
but Steven Seagal never has a pointto make. He never gets even,
he never even whiffs at a point. He is completely out in the
fucking Weeds concert. And I don'tjust it's always just it's always just hero

(15:45):
worship for him, and the herohe's worshiping is himself. Yeah, he
loves himself. Man. Can wetalk about the director. Sure, let's
talk about Dean Semmler, who hasdone cinematography for a whole bunch of things.
He's won an Oscar. I mean, this guy is like, he's
not a director by trade. He'smostly known for cinematography. I think he's

(16:07):
done a lot of stuff with Spielberg. He did one of my favorite movies,
Super Marketer Brothers. Yeah, he'sdone Dan to Wolves. He won
for Dances with Wolves. Yeah,I mean, he worked on Apocalypto.
I mean he's worked as recently astwenty nineteen with Playing with Fire, that
John Cena Firefighter movie which John Linquiza. Speaking of Mario Brothers, John Lee,

(16:29):
you think him and John leg Waszabaon the set were like, hey,
remember in the nineties we worked onthat wild ass Mario Brothers movie.
You had the best alcohol man.Yeah, I mean, I tell you.
It's what's funny is looking at hishis filmography. Do you know what
his only other film he directed wassame year, same year as this one.
What how he long is? Fiveyears? Oh? Right, right?

(16:49):
I read that. I remember readingthat smoke Jumper Jesse Graves. Oh,
this one was like backtrapped in aForest. This was like Fox trying
to make how we Low their nextaction star the ride it with the Boss
Baby and it didn't work. Comeon, well, why do you think
we kicked them out of Seattle?Man? He lost? I'll tell you

(17:10):
what. I actually just recently sawa goal Mad Max two and Mad Max
Beyond Thunderdome. I had never seenthem before, and he did the He
did the cinematography on both of thosemovies, and man, those are great.
Oh yeah, they're great movies,both of them. And again,
like that's the thing I actually thinkin terms of him being a director.
This movie is well shot, butit's nothing special. The term that we

(17:33):
often use is workman like, andI think it is rather workman like.
And look, he's an Australian cinematographerand film director, so having worked on
or with Australians seems to be somethinghe does frequently. But yeah, I
mean I kind of wish there wasmore to this movie because it has a
lot of parts that theoretically added togethershould be interesting. I mean, look,

(17:56):
I will say this setting alone ispretty unique. We don't get a
lot of movies set in Montana likethis. Like alone, it's an interesting
setup. You know what I mean. Yeah, unless they're like westerns that
like, or movies about horses,right, you don't really about Montana.
No, there's not like an actionmovie that I can point to and be

(18:17):
like, this takes place in Montana. But that's it. That's what's interesting
about Segal because if we back thisup, Sagall has done an Alaska action
movie, He's done a Montana actionmovie, and then he's also done like
a deep South like Kentucky's was aKentucky or Tennessee where fire down below it
was one of those two. Right, it's like somewhere in somewhere in there,

(18:38):
like I will say, it doesn'tthe one in Louisiana. No,
that's the van you're thinking of Vandam Oh with hard target. Yeah,
with heart target, because that takesplace in like the Bayou. Right,
Yeah, but that's the thing likethat, I mean, that is kind
of it in terms of like thesekinds of movies. These are not big
budget action stars. In the nineties, the movies that they were making were

(19:00):
higher concept than this, like aSchwarzenegger. Schwarzenegger wasn't even making terrestrial movies
at some point. He was makingbig sci fi things or you know,
big God knows what else, likecomic book movies and stuff in the night.
Yeah, so what I will say, I appreciate that Steven Sagall seems
committed to, like, at leastat this part of his career, making

(19:22):
weird action movies in the States thatare uniquely like. There are very few
movies themed the way that this oneis, with a cattle cattle rancher slash
farmer who's a ex immunologist the weirdestlike, it's so ham fisted. Sagall
always wants to be an expert onsomething that there's no reasonable human being would

(19:44):
believe he's an immunologist. I'll givehim this. He's slightly more likable than
he usually is in this film becauseof his daughter. Somehow he comes off
better when he's around her than hehas any right to be. Right.
Yeah, I mean Camilla bell Is, it's fine. She's a child actor.
This is after Jurassic World. Shewas eleven at the time this movie

(20:07):
came out. Eleven. Yeah.Yeah. He was born in eighty six,
so she was twelve. Yeah,she was twelve twelve yeah yeah,
yeah, so I find a gallI think Sigall kind of had a little
paternal instinct kick in who's better asa father on screen Schwarzenegger at the beginning
at Commando or Steven Seagal or Iguess not beginning a Comando Schwarzenegger Sagal Schwarzenegger.
Is he a more believable parent?Though, yes, you think so?

(20:30):
Absolutely okay, because the scene whereSchwarzenegger feeds a deer some feed always
cracks me up to see barely basingthat on that one scene, I read
fair fair, but it is Iwould say that I can I did think
of. I find Segall is morebelievable doing what he's doing in this movie
than Schwarzenegger is as a dad toa Like, That's the thing. Schwarzenegger

(20:53):
is ex military in Commando, right, and Segal is eximmunologist in this movie.
Kaul is more believable in this movie, Like I kind of believe his
shtick in this movie more than Ibelieved it in anything else I've seen him
in. In terms of these kindsof movies, Commando wasn't the best basis
for comparison, No, but alsohow many movies have a I mean,

(21:15):
the setup for these movies are verysimilar, is my point, Shingle all
the way. You played it,you go all the way? Come on,
yeah, and look, I'll defendJingle all the way, and so
will you. But that's our problem, not anybody else's. I love Jingle
all the way. I mean Schwarzenegger, I think in terms of him being
like a family man, that's neverbeen a thing that really I think should
be a motivator. And that's justa way, like like you just alluded

(21:37):
to, especially with Segall, it'sa way to endear him to a different
group of people in the audience.Heh, yeah, I mean the muscles
I think people might find intimidating.I think maybe that's why Sigall is a
little more believable to you, becauseSigall has more of a father figure,
no pun intended. Yeah, youhe looks like what a typical father would

(21:59):
look like. I mean, butdad Bod Schwarzenegger has always been this,
you know, buff like Titan,you know, and he's always been seen
as like the telling me at theend of Jingle all the way, when
the woman, the woman that RitaWilson is couldn't recognize her husband dressed in
in a perbo man outfit. Areyou telling me, that's not believable.
Howard, I oward you're telling meyou just realized, you just realize your

(22:23):
husband's attractive. Come on to yourpoint. Yeah, but Schwarzenegger is I
don't believe him as a dad.I don't. He's too he's too Yeah,
he tries. And what's weird islike Siegal just comes off as more
of a dad, probably because he'smore detached and more emotionally like stunted as

(22:45):
a human being. But who wouldyou rather have as a father. I
mean they're both kind of problematic intheir own way. I mean Schwarzenegger's not.
I mean we've never really talked aboutit, but Schwarzenegger's not exactly of
an ally to women in the wayI think he maybe thinks he is.
Yeah, and he's right, butwe won't have any act. Yeah,
well can you imagine that being marriedto Maria Schriver and just being like,

(23:08):
oh my nanny, huh Like okay, hey, you like what you're like?
I mean, yeah, I can't, I am He'll like that is
true. Schwarzenegger does like other womenthat are not his wife. You're right,
I mean, you know, toquote Jingle all the way, I'm
not the pervelt. I was lookingfor a tugamando. He's not a pervert.

(23:29):
That's hey, you know what,at least Swartzenegger is not problematic that
way, because Steven Siagall is.No. I mean he's more like problematic
in a cheating asshole way. Yeah, like's more unwanted affection way. Yeah,
like diplomatic. It's a good thing. Camilla bel was only eleven at
the time. Yeah, too bad. She wasn't like Catherine Heigel and Undersiege
too right once is she's seventeen?Yeah? Was segal Man? That just

(23:55):
no chill Man has no chill.No, And that's the thing. And
that's the thing in this movie.I'll tell you the role that he's playing.
Tell what's the character's name, Steve, Doctor Steven Sagall might as well
be like at this point, atthis point, at this point, he
has finally honed his character down toa point. And I don't think and
I think we we can see thisbecause we've watched so much of his stuff

(24:18):
now, I don't think he's evergoing to move off of this setting anymore,
like this is this is it?He never he never really had much
the range to be beginning with.Yeah, but he's worked himself up to
this point now, Like there wasa point where he didn't think his part
smelled so great, and now heloves the way his own fart smelled,
you know what I mean. Like, that's where we are now, and

(24:38):
there's never going to be like apivot back from that, because in the
land of direct to video stuff,someone like a Sigall is still a catch
names. You're right, he's toofar gone. Yeah, he going back,
No, he he He's made himselfkind of very unpopular in the industry
by being who he is, whichis fine. They're winning people that will

(25:00):
pay you to be an asshole inHollywood. And I don't think there's a
finite amount of apologies the man couldgive that would make people have people let
him make movies again. Here,No, and he's past his prime.
He's not and he's not an actorthat And I think about this a lot.
Man, Like, ten years fromnow, there may not even be

(25:21):
a group of people that care aboutSteven Sagall anymore. If there are now,
Like, I'm not sure anyone well, your stuff has slowed down a
lot, but I'm not sure anyoneten years younger than me, so in
their mid twenties, has seen asteven Sagall movie before? Oh, I
hears out it, right, andlike at that point, it doesn't matter
if he's making movies anymore or not. And like that's the thing he's you

(25:42):
know, hold he is. He'sseventy two, man, like he's old.
He's a old guy. Now,he's not a young dude anymore.
So if he's making movies at thispoint, it's tantamount to Harrison Ford doing
Indiana Jones Ken, right, justjust you gotta walk away and look?
Am I disappointed that possible? Hislast movie is the second thing that we

(26:02):
ever covered with General or I guessnot General Commander. It's Beyond the Law.
General Commander was his second to lastmovie. Am I disappointed that Beyond
the Law might be his last movie? Yes? Given that Above the Law
too was rumored still is technically rumoredto be existing. I would like to
We're gonna happen, right, I'dlike to see him make one more movie
the way he used to. Butat this point, dude, like I've

(26:25):
known you for like what five yearssomething like that? At this longer than
that, I think like the lasttime he made a movie was twenty nineteen,
which is either the year I thinkthat's like the year you and I
met. So it's been five yearssince he made anything. And yes,
three of those years or maybe threeI think most people would say were pandemic

(26:48):
years where most things weren't happening anyways. So I think unless somebody does something
with him that really gets him go, and I think he's probably content to
just live in Do Buy or whereverthe fuck he lives and do I do
every day and have people tell himhow grady is at ike do, because
that's the thing you and I wouldboth contend. He is good at ike

(27:10):
do. That's yeah, there's noquestion there. Like I believe he could
kill me in two seconds if hemet me, and I don't. I'm
not being hyperbolic. Problem is theman has no Hugo, right, but
and that's I mean, that's theindustry. Unfortunately, the industry then in
the nineties really it didn't know howto handle people like that the way they

(27:30):
do now. People, you can'tdo that anymore, like the world will
get out too quickly, too manypeople will know, like you can keep
it under wraps. Now in thenineties, the internet's still just barely a
thing. Studios were only worried aboutthe bottom line, and they saw this
trend of more martial arts talented actorsdoing action films. So I want it

(27:56):
in the States at least in theStates. And the studios want to get
in on this. They want toget anything. That's why you saw a
lot of like Jeff Speakman, orlike Don and Dragon Wilson, you know,
stuff like that. I mean,Brandon Leaky tried to with hard Target.
I'm not hard target, God damnit? Uh with uh uh what
was it called? What about MarkDakaskas Mark Dicasco's uh from Iron Chef.

(28:19):
Oh, what a weird if,what a weird career pivot that man has
hat. I think we're gonna seedouble Dragon. No, but he's also
Chairman Caga's nephew in Iron Chef America, which always makes me laugh. I
always. I just a couple ofdays ago watched the compilation of Today's Secret
Ingredients. Oh, he's so goodwhen he reveals that he he under he

(28:41):
understands the assignment as it were.And to your point about the nineties,
like Steven Sigal by the way,by the way, rapid Fire that wasn't
even that happened, So that's what. But to your point, like this
idea of in the nineties, itwas it was coming to a close the
kind like I don't know if youwould agree with me entirely, but I
think that this is a pretty fairstatement to make. Arnold Schwarzenegger, Steven

(29:04):
Segahl, Jean Claudvin Dam, SylvesterStallone haven't made a lot of great movies
host the mid nineties. They hada time and it was like fifteen years
though, would they the three ofthem or four of them were kind of
all punching at each other. Imean, you know, Stallone and Schwarzenegger
going back and forth in the eightieswas a thing. I mean, you

(29:26):
know Stopper, my mom will shootthe famous story with that movie it is,
you know schwartz Yever, Schwarzenegger baitedStallone into taking it, and he
took the fucking bait. But likelike you alluded to, the tastes in
the nineties and the late nineties werevery different, and that's you know,
something like Rush Hour comes out inthe late nineties, which introduces a lot
of Americans for the first time toJackie Chan and then that, like you

(29:49):
said kind of becomes the prevailing thingfor a while. Crouching Tiger, Hitden,
Dragon makes Big Waves, Rush Hourtwo comes out, Shanghai Noon,
Shanghai Night, all these jetly movieslike the I mean again, like the
One or Again, and then youeven alluded to kind of the some of
the smaller name people. But theexpectations going into the two thousands were very

(30:11):
different from what people wanted in theeighties and nineties. I mean, you
can even see it, you know, we were talking about it right before
we started recording. But wrestling trendsfollowed that too. I mean, in
the eighties and nineties, you hadbig professions. As you know, the
Undertaker is the most famous wrestler andhis name is what his profession is.
That that has been able to survivefor thirty years plus, but in a

(30:33):
lot of ways, it's kind ofthe outlier that proves the rule. And
Schwarzenegger's stallone and Jean Claude van Damand Steven Sagall haven't really done as much
as well since like the late ninetiesthat they would have in those subsequent twenty
years before that. Well, andwhen they do they try to go back
to the well, right and it'slike you very do this again. Varying

(30:56):
successes, although I will I dosay Rambo, the fourth one is really
fucking good. The fourth one isin ram the one in Gambodia. Yeah,
yeah, that was great. Isaw that one in theaters. I
would, oh they agree, theone with Julie Ben last Yes, the
last one was kind of racist.That the one where he's killing all the
people at the border. Yeah,and the Mexicans and oh boy, great

(31:19):
it did seem a little. Butyou know, Arold Schwarzengger, how many
Terminator movies has he done? Now? What since Terminator two? Well like
Ternator, Terminator two, Germinator three, Grimator, Genesis, Terminator, Salvation,
Germinator. Uh he wasn't in Salvation, that's the only one he wasn't
in. Well his his face wassure, but he thankfully it was uh
one, two, three. He'sbeen in five now because he was in

(31:41):
Dark Fate and Genesis. Uh yeah. And the problem is to the varying
to declining box office says yeah,like okay, and the last good Schwarzeneger
movie. I think most people wouldsit and be like that was a great
movie, and I really enjoyed it. Nineteen ninety five. Do you know
what that film is True Lives,Yeah, yeah, after that Eraser Junior

(32:06):
Jingle all the Way and Batman andRobin End of Days, the Sixth Day,
Collateral Damage Terminator three. I doknow. Here's the thing. I
love these movies, and so doyou. But like that is because I
also like, I love Schwarzenegger period. But I am literally pointing to objective
fact that none of these movies thatI've mentioned moved the needle the way Commando

(32:28):
Red Under Red Heat, Total Recall, Kindergarden Cop Like those movies are beloved
movies. I like a lot ofSchwarzenegger's stuff. I tolerate probably more than
most people do, just like youdo. But even I can acknowledge from
two thousand, from nineteen ninety fouruntil now, he's made a couple good

(32:50):
things, but for the most parthe's done a lot of ho hum,
same bullshit. Well, he didthe expendable Silms, just very word of
Here's the thing about Salon, No, he was smart when he went back
to like the Rocky franchise because hedidn't try to have Rocky still be you
know the consider the focus well,I mean Rocky about bo he was the

(33:10):
focus, but then he knew,Okay, I can't do this anymore.
You know, if I want tokeep making the movies, I'm I'm gonna
have to be like the Mickey role, you know well. And Stallone.
I mean, look, I thinkit might be fair that I lumped Stallone
in, but I think Stallone alsopivoted. Like Stallone is much more of
an actor then I'm not saying Schwarzeneggeris not an actor, but like Schwarzenegger

(33:32):
is a lot of things, andI think Stallone, I mean, look,
Stallone wrote the script for Rocky likehe ye, like he's on the
fucking oscar. He's a smart guy. I mean, to your points,
to your point, like it mightbe a little bit of an unfair comparison,
but it's a fair comparison only interms of they're not. Schwarzenegger doesn't
make the kinds of things he's knownfor making anymore, and Stallone really doesn't.

(33:55):
Like Stallone was the voice in SuicideSquad of King Shark, but you
didn't see him on screen, Likeno, he's and when he is on
screen, he's either doing something he'salready done, or he's doing something different.
Like that show that's on what isit on, paramt Plush, Yeah,
the one where he's like a mobsterin Tulsa Tulsa King like Tulsa King.
Yeah yeah, Like these kinds ofthings are not what I would expect

(34:19):
from someone like Stallone. So it'snice to see that he's pivoted. Schwarzenegger
hasn't pivoted. Schwarzenegger kind of isjust still doing this ling Well. I
think Schwarzenegger, what he does,he pivots more towards comedic action. When
he stuff was always kind of funny, right like, well, yeah,
I mean, what's serious Schwarzenegger movieCollateral Damage? Like you know, like
most of his stuff, his oneliners are always good for the most part.

(34:43):
Like that's what he's known for,is goddamn one liners. Yeah,
I mean that's he's tried, Godbless him to try to be known for
more than just that. He doeshave good comedic timing. But I can't
see Schwarzenegger doing anything like dramatic seenMaggie, I haven't. It's Oh,
it's okay, Like I wouldn't rushout to see it. To your point,

(35:06):
he's like okay as a dramatic actor, but he doesn't. I think
Schwarzenegger is bigger than life like andthat's verir even now, like even now,
even now, he can post avideo on YouTube and people will stop
and listen to him because for alot of people like yourself, like myself,
he was inescapable. He was everywherehe became governor because of his film

(35:30):
career, and you know what,a lot of people wish they had a
Republican like him kicking around now becauseyou know what, you might not have
liked him then, but comparatively helooks like a fucking saint. Well when
he does videos now, he's verymuch a centrist, yeah, kind of.
I mean he's definitely pushing himself awayfrom a Steven de Way and where
Steven Segala is kind of embraced.That's the thing. I mean, he's

(35:52):
definitely swayed more into this is whatRepublicans used to be and we should be
again, right, rather than let'stoe that Trump line. And he'd been
vocal about how Trump is not whatRepublican he thinks of as a repulicay right,
Well, the kind of Republican thathe was when he was governor.
And that's the other thing we canobviously never know what would have happened to

(36:14):
Steve steven Sagall's career had never goneto DTV. We can never know that,
just like we can never know whatwould have happened if Schwarzenegger had never
become governor, because there's essentially tenyears where he does nothing. It's cameos,
cameo, cameo, CA. Imean, you can look at it
from the Rundown until the Last Stand, Those Up until Last Stand, Around

(36:36):
the World in eighty Days, theRundown, the Kid and I, Expendables
and Expendables too, all essentially cameos. Have you seen have you seen The
Last Stand? Yeah? And it'spretty good. Yeah, but it's good
in spite of essentially everything else thatwould come out after it, like well,
ye escape, I mean, orsabotage or I'm not a fan of
the Expendables movies personally. I findthem to just that's fine. They're okay

(36:59):
after a while, like they theNovelty Wears Off after the fourth one was
pretty bad. I stopped after thesecond one. Well, I mean I
thought that the second one was.I like the second one, probably because
they had Chuck Norris in it,and probably for the memes. They had
him in it for the memes,that's all. Then every able it gets

(37:20):
to go. He doesn't work withtwenty people, you know well. And
Stallone, I mean he did Bulletto the Head, which is a movie
I did not care for. Butyeah, I mean Stallone, he knows
when to hang it up. Yeah, I went to pivot to something else.
Like if Schwarzenegger made another movie thisyear, I don't think it would
be like a serious movie. Imean, look, the last thing he
made was Terminator Dark Fit, whichwas anything but serious, Like it was

(37:44):
another Mainator movie. And now there'sthis Twins two that's in limbo, whatever
the fuck's happening to it. I'sand to your point, like I think
Schwarzenegger should have pivoted earlier. Ithink still Stallone pivoted at the right time.
I think Segall has yet to pivot. And never I mean, like
we said, he never will atthis point. He's missed, missed the

(38:06):
opportunity by a by a long shot. He's a lost cause, man,
I mean that's what. But that'sthe sad thing about a movie like The
Patriot is is the movie A movielike The Patriot isn't Honestly, it's kind
of a shock that this movie isa DTV movie. I mean, it
feels like it only because the lackof action. Well, it was released
theatrically in some countries, though it'salmost it was almost released theatrically here.

(38:28):
I think it just there's not enoughhere to to I think interest an audience
at the time who had seen allof his other stuff. I mean,
all the other things that we've watchedup to this point have a lot more
action than this movie does. Andit's action that actually leans on him as
an as a I do practicer.I mean, in terms of story,
it's pretty thin. The whole movieis only what ninety minutes. It doesn't

(38:52):
use the time wisely plastic beakers,speakers, plastic beakers. When he says
plastic beakers and he says it again, so they cut the monkeys with glass.
It's like, what are you talkingabout, you, psycho. That's
a missed opportunity event he could havekilled Gaylor to start taking with a plastic
beaker. I mean, I don't. Yeah, yo, Honestly, that's

(39:12):
the other thing about this movie.I mean, we we've kind of talked
about this a lot. When itcomes to Segal and I guess it probably
bears repeating here, but the climaxof this movie is really poorly done.
I mean, well, it's rushed. It's so rushed. Yeah, it
kind of comes out of nowhere,like there are no stakes, and there's
this kind of ticking clock because oh, you know, the the virus will
kill you very quickly and we haveto figure out how to cure everybody quickly

(39:37):
and otherwise everybody's gonna die. Butthere's no there is no sense of tension
now a virus. Well, withOutbreak, they at least let you believe
that the outbreak is about to dothis, this, this, this,
this, and the government's about tobomb the city, you know, to
contain it. Right, there wasa sense of tension there with this one.
There's no there's no US government threateningout uh an extremination or anything like

(40:01):
that. It's it's more of just, oh, we found the QR,
here's the tea drink. You're done. It's kind of you know, I
think though obviously you know this isthis is kind of a seminal moment for
the show. Obviously it took usa while to get here literally figuratively,
all of all of it, becauseagain, we kind of took a break.
You and I, yeah, focuson our mental health and other things.

(40:22):
But obviously also I mean it's what'sfunny is we took a break at
the point where literally now we haveno more of the films that people would
call quality, Like this is thefirst d TV movie. This is probably
for a lot of people, thismight have been the last thing most people
heard Steven Seghal was in for awhile until we get to I mean,

(40:43):
obviously there will be a couple thingsthat we talk about that that come out,
but this is I mean, thisis it. I mean we get
Exit Wounds and then Machete, butexit Wounds, I think is Exit Wins
is like the big one. Ithink in terms of like things that people
might be seeing him in, Iguess that ones and what Half Past Dead
probably those those are the two bigones, and maybe the Onion movie.

(41:05):
Yeah. Yeah, But but he'snot I mean, like he's not even
I mean again in terms of likebeing the main star. But I have
to ask you, yeah, what'sup. If we were to look back
at the last however many movies,it's been above the law, hard to
kill mark for death Out for Justice, under Siege on Deadly Ground, under
siege to executive Decision, the glimmerMan or fire down below. Where do

(41:27):
you put what's at the top andwhat's at the bottom? For you,
well, top is under siege?Okay, well, yeah, that's right.
You're you're a huge fan of undersiege. Yeah. I like both of
them, So I would say both, and I say it's a piece you
mean, yes, a number two. I'm put around Mark for Death,
that Out for Justice and Hard toKill. You're going to do all ten
of them in No, just thefirst and the last one honestly, Uh,

(41:52):
what's that? What's the height?What's the peak? And what's the
valley? Peak is under siege andlike Mark for Death, the valley is
is God Like there's a couple thingsvying through the bottom. Here are we
talking about his all filmography? No, just the things that were theater,
like the theatrical because but this isthere's no more Theatrica. I would say

(42:14):
around half Beast Dead or the glitnerMan. Actually, the glinner Man might
be the start of the nature.You think that the do you think that
the Glimerman is the is the lowpart is the lowest point in his theatrical
Well, either that or half PastDead. Okay, I haven't seen Half
Past Dead, so it's that bad? Yeah, or you know that's too
bad, I would say so farin terms of like the time that he

(42:36):
was known for doing theatrical stuff.I'm gonna say yeah, I think and
will probably get you on to doan episode on Film Foundations on Steven Siegal
because I think it would be fun, especially given that we're kind of doing
all of his stuff as it is. But I think I'm probably in terms
of like the thing that I wouldsay like most people would need to see,
I think you're probably right. Ithink Undersea just kind of the Steven

(43:00):
Sagall film in terms of like thebig world saving one. I think,
you know, to your point markunder each two, I mean, well,
well that's the thing like Undersaege oneand Undersage two are so like the
world's ending and we've got to stopthe world from ending. I don't think
Segall works best when it's like worldending. I actually know. I think
that Like to your point, Markedfor Death, I love Marked for Death.

(43:22):
The music in that movie is great. I mean it has like some
voodooy stuff there's that scene where he'sjust pretty it's pretty fucking brutal. Yeah,
I think the way he the wayhe kills Screwface at the end of
the movie is fucking intense. Imean it's it's no fucking joke. I
yeah, I think I'm with you. I think under Siege, under Siege

(43:43):
and Marked for Death are two similarsongs played in a different key. But
yeah, I think that's why Iput them both so close to each Yeah.
I mean they're fair, They're goodfor different reasons, and I think
they represent like the same they representtwo sides of the same coin with Steven
Sagall, which I think when talkingabout him, is important. But uh,
yeah, man, I'm gonna sayprobably the bottom of the pack,

(44:06):
the thing that really is not great. Uh probably Fired down Below, Like
on Deadly Ground, I kind ofhave a soft spot for us, but
Fire Below is Fire down Below ispretty bad. I mean, I don't
know. I think it was confusedthough, which was the one Michael Kaye
on Deadly Ground the Alaska one?Fire down Below is the Chris Christofferson all
the random country Western singers trying tokill Steven Segal. Okay, I might

(44:30):
have to change my vote then,because On Deadly Ground was pretty fucking bad.
On Deadly Ground and Fire down Beloware preachy. Very it was,
but it was Cigal. It wasCigal at his most ego because he thought
he could direct this and just doeverything I would. I might even I

(44:52):
might actually amend my answer. Yeah, just the fact that he directed On
Deadly Ground, and that probably putsit the worst thing he he's done,
I think period, in terms ofthe things most people would have seen is
is on Deadly Ground. You're probablyright because he is why everything to blame
it's is it is a problem ofhis own creation. And I'm not gonna
blame Michael Kane because he probably didthe film for the same reason he did

(45:15):
Jaws three or Jaws four. Isessentially alluded it to it as much,
right, Like, like, Ihaven't seen Jaws four by all account is
terrible, but I have seen thehouse it's built, and it's beautiful.
Yeah, exactly like and and Iwouldn't be surprised if that's why Michael Kane
was in On Deadly Ground. ButI think to your point, I mean,
On Deadly Ground is also a moviethat we literally somehow avoided having an

(45:37):
hour long, fucking end of themovie rant by Steven Sagall about how bad,
how bad it is to be,you know, trilling for oil in
Alaska, which I'm not saying it'sgood or bad, but I don't need
to listen to Steven Sagall talk aboutit for a look, dude, nobody
wants to hear your ideology. Dude, seriously. Well, his ideology is
more popular now than it never hasbeen. Unfortunately, Well, they didn't

(45:59):
want to hear it at the time, right, Well, that's the I
mean about say. It also hasto do with the messenger of it,
rather more than less of the message, more about who the messenger is.
That's fair. Yeah, yeah,I don't. The last thing anybody really
needs is Steven Sagall is following thelead of someone like Steven Seagall. And
that's the thing. I mean,he's out of touch with reality. He's

(46:21):
out of touch with the industry.And this is for me. I mean,
we we are now at the pointwith this show where everything from here
on out is going to be DTVstyeah, So you know we've got a
lot to get through. I mean, the bulk majority of his stuff is
DTV, heavily DTV. I mean, he's he's making DTV movies a lot,

(46:45):
a lot, A lot, alot. I mean, we're we
got a lot to get through.But yeah, this is this is I
think this movie honestly was as closeas I've seen so far to a movie
host his big movies that was like, eh, this probably could have stood
to have been in theaters. Itwas the closest I think. Yeah.
I mean, if it had goneto theaters, I wouldn't have been surprised.
It probably would have been met ofthe movies that came in debut at

(47:07):
number six or seven and then droppedoff the next weekend. Yeah, Like,
it's it's nothing special, it's nothingreally that exciting. It's not an
un it's not a hidden gem.Honestly, I still it's not unwatchable,
rightable, And I still think you'dprobably agree with me that attrition is probably
the like saying that I did notexpect to find in his filmography, which

(47:28):
is a good late stage Sagal movie, but this, Yeah, this,
this checks a couple of boxes.But it's okay. And for a movie
called The Patriot Boy, it's prettyironic that it's about Steven Sagal, given
how unpatriotic. He essentially is nowat this point, raw raw America,
and now he's anyone. It's wildto me, look for me, for

(47:52):
me. Steven Sagall is a guywho when he's on, he's on,
and for the things that he wason in in the nineties, we're gonna
to see a lot of him beingoff in the twentys and twenty tens,
because that's yeah, we might hitthe occasional glimmer and bright spot, but
I'm not holding out too much jokeno me either. And like you said,
if even the movies that came outafter this that went to theaters weren't

(48:15):
great, that's also disappointing because givenhow infrequently he would be making movies in
theaters, it would be nice ifat least those movies were good, but
it may not be the case.So and so well, Yeah, on
the next episode, you and Iwill be traveling all the way into the
past but future of twenty fifteen totalk about s twenty fourteen with gut Shot

(48:36):
Straight, which the character that heplays in that movie, I think his
name is Hollie Trunks Crazy. Ishe a mobster, yes, a lone
shark specifically, so great oh mygod. One can only fucking imagine.
So until then, where can peoplefind you? Trevor? You can you
feel me usual on X man orto Go, But I heard they ever

(49:01):
use x anymore, So you canfind me on LuSE Guide the same.
You can find me on Instagram atthe same. Yeah, and work people
find you, Chris find me atweirdingweymedia dot com. Where this show and
all the other shows that I workon can be found. Yeah, all
of everything. But if you areinto James Bond films, which if you

(49:22):
listen to this show you might be, you can get in on patreon dot
com, slash culturecast or Patreon dotcom, slash Projection booth ten dollars or
higher. You get to listen toMike White, Richard Adam of Richard Adams
Paranormal Bookshelf, and I spend oneweekend a month talking about James Bond movies.
And right now, the last episodeyou would hear if you were supporting
us is Goldfingers. So we're justgetting into the really good stuff. So

(49:45):
if that's something you're into, headon over there, like rate and review
the show on iTunes please, evenif you don't get it on iTunes like,
rate and review the show on iTunesthat's where most people get their shows.
And yeah, as always we'll catchon the next episode. Sing again.