9: Under Siege

Episode Transcript
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(00:29):
Hello, and welcome to a veryspecial episode of the Ensagal Podcast. I
am your host, Trevor Grumble joiningme as always is the beautiful road Runner
because he never gets caught. That'sso says Tommy Lee Jones and underseage.
No, I am Chris dash You. I am here, and like Trevor
mentioned, we are joined for thefirst time on our show. We have

(00:53):
our first guest, and it's kindof fitting in a way because well,
his book Seagology kind of put meon this path of Seagal to begin with.
So there you go. We're talkingwith the one and only Verne or
per his zoom name, the OutlawVerne or Outlaw Vern. Hello, thank
you, thank you for having me, so Verne. I think the question

(01:15):
on my mind, on Trevor's mind, on probably people who've read your book,
which is available on Amazon both inkindle and physical copies, is it
here fucking fumbling my words like anidiot? Why Stephen Seagal? Vern?
Well, I love, I loveSteven Seagal's movies, especially as early ones,

(01:36):
and I love a lot of differentaction movies, and he's not necessarily
my very favorite one, but Ijust became fascinated with them after I mainly
because of because of On Deadly Ground, and after I had seen On Deadly
Ground and all the you know,the political aspects of it, the way
he talks, has the big speechabout the environment at the end and everything,

(01:57):
and a lot of the philosophy that'sin it, which everyone made fun
of at the time, but tome it was like very interesting, Like
what is up with this this guywho's this action hero and goes out there
and that's how he decides to usehis cloud is to make this particular movie.
Um, that's such a weird,a weird combination of like really awesome

(02:20):
action movie and absurd kind of hardon his sleeve corny nous. Um.
I just really love that movie.And then and then afterwards I started seeing
a lot of the straight to videoonce he was doing, like in their
late nineties early two thousands, andI just really it fascinated me how much
he seemed to have seems that hewould do over and over again in these

(02:44):
movies, more more so than likeBruce Willis or even even Jean Clay Van
Dam would be playing a character that'sthat's different in each movie, but so
Gal seemed to be like, I'mthe same guy, except this time I'm
ex Navy seal, or this timei'm x CIA, or this time I'm
helping animals and this time I'm achef or whatever. But always x something,

(03:05):
always exactly, always were always gofrom He always goes from x x
UM covert operative military or whatever toman of peace. Yeah, yeah,
And I love that sort of archetype, And so I thought that was so
cool, and I literally there wasa point where I literally had a chart

(03:29):
that I made where I put differentcategories like like what his background is,
whether or not he has an oldfriend that he hooks up with that gives
him advice, and whether and likewhat the politics are of the movie.
Like that was on one side andthe other side was like a list of
each of his movies. And Iwas filling in this giant chart, and
and it just got to a pointwhere I was like, you know,
I made up the name psychology,and I just thought, if if there

(03:50):
was a book that existed that uh, they looked at all of these movies
seriously, like with the sense ofhumor, but also seriously trying to analyze
all those things about it that wouldbe in itself would be kind of hilarious
that it existed, but also wouldjust be like the exact book that I
would want to read. And soI spent a long time writing and I
originally self published it and then uh, luckily a publisher was interested in it

(04:14):
and and a lot more people gotto read it, and and yeah,
that's it. I was about tosay, there's like the pedigree the people
that you know are have vouched forthe book or some pretty big names.
Yeah, you know you have DavidGordon Greene who does the the forward right
to the book. Um, yeah, who's become a lot bigger since then,

(04:35):
which is yeah, yeah, thatwas very nice of him to do
that. He Uh, I usedto, but I'm friends with a guy
that works with him, and soI kind of like he seemed like a
big name that I could ask todo it. And then I really didn't
know until I asked it. Heactually was really into Sigal movies and was

(04:55):
excited to write it. So thatwas pretty great. Why hasn't he put
Sagal Halloween? Damn it? Comeon, Mike Myers against Steven Seagal.
It would probably be like Mike Myeror Mike Mike Tyson versus Steven Seagal five
minutes of the two and a halfhour movie. We'll get into that.
And also Gamel del Toro also hadat a pretty nice, pretty nice little

(05:18):
buy line for your book, whichis super Yeah, that's a little bit
misleading. He Uh. That wasthanked to Drew mcqueeney, who I knew
from I used to write any coolnews back then, and he hooked that
up. But it was actually originallyfor a book that I self published as
a collection of reviews. Um soit was a great It was a great

(05:39):
thing that he said about me.That's amazingly flattering and everything, and then
the publisher decided that that would applyto the Seagale book. Hopefully he wasn't
offended by that. I have noidea if he ever hasn't. He hasn't
served your papers yet, has he? So I think he's cool. Not
so far. Something weird, weirdpaper with tentacles and spirals on it.

(06:00):
Yeah, let me ask you.But to be fair, if it's Germo
del Tour, it may never showup. I mentioned manuscript. Yeah that's
true. Yeah, it's it's lostwith his haunted mansion project mansions of man
or the Mountains of Madness project aswell at Halo and all those other things.
Let me ask you you you saidyou worked for any Cool News,

(06:20):
right, you wrote for any coolthose Yeah. I wouldn't say worked for
it because they never paid me.But oh right, Yeah, did you
ever get a chance to Did youever get a chance to write about Seagal
while you wrote for them? Yeah? I should have mentioned that that was
sort of actually started the genesis ofit, because I mean I was interested
in Seagal, But then also Ihad to hook up with a video store

(06:43):
that I was getting these preview screenersof movies. They were they were VHS
back then, Yeah, and umand a lot of the cigal ones were
coming in. So I was watchedbecause I was into him. I was
watching those and reviewing those because becauseit was something that I could review early
before it came out. Yeah,and so the process of doing that is
kind of what got me more fascinatedwith him. And yeah, I used

(07:04):
to I also I used to workat a video store. Um, and
we used to get VHS screeners too, but they were only from like the
Disney companies, So we would getstuff from like Merrimax, or and this
was back in early two thousands,So we got we got the like gone
in sixty seconds. We got likethe Freddie Prince Junior riantic comedies. Uh.

(07:24):
The one screener I know this isa little off topic, but the
one screener I used to take homeall the time was high fidelity. Um,
because it's a good movie. It'sa great movie, and it was
so much so that um, theyjust said, just just just take it,
just keep it river. I wishwe'd gotten like more like studio different
studios screen of films, but likeespecially with Seagal films, because I definitely

(07:46):
want to check them out because inthe early two thousands that was like the
infancy, I would say of hislike direct to video because the first DRECTI
video I remember, correct me ifI'm wrong, Verne, but the correct
The first one I remember was ThePatriot. Yeah, that was that was
literally the first straight to video onehe did. Yeah, and that's a
weird one because it has like oneaction scene in it, but because he's

(08:11):
a doctor, right, like adoctor unalogist or something. Yeah, but
we've gotten and the villain is oneof the guys from the ernest movies I
believe. Oh wow, Yeah,it was around a few years after that
I was reviewing, Like I remember, I did. Out for a Kill

(08:31):
was one of the ones I wasexcited to review, and Belly of the
Beast, which is one that Ireally love, and uh and up through
UH. I think Urban Justice maybeUrban Justice I reviewed, And I forget
if that was rain It Cool orif I had left by then, but
that was that. That might havebeen the last one I did for them.
I'm not sure, Okay, soVerne, I'm curious because again you

(08:54):
again for a lot of us wholike Steven Seagal are intrigued by him as
you are. He seems like aninteresting guy. He has his massive personal
problems that we have talked about multipletimes. We even had a long discussion
at the end of the last showabout it. Um have you ever heard
from anyone that he knows about yourbook? Yeah, early on, even

(09:18):
even when I had only self publishedit, there was UM. I wish
I remembered the name of the person, but somebody emailed me and told me
that they had. They had broughttwo copies to get one. They got
him to sign it at some somesomething, and uh, he had he
had a copy for himself and acopy for his brother who's trying to get
signed, and Sigal was like,can I can I take this? And

(09:39):
like talked him into taking it.So that was the first I heard that
he supposedly had seen it. Andthen UM, like this idea that Steven
Seagal wouldn't just buy a copy?Can I have this thing you brought and
me to have itside I think thatwas the first he knew of its existence,
because it was it was like Isaw a few hundred copies, you

(10:01):
know, and then it's a veryStephen Seagal story, Like I just if
imagining him sitting there like can Ican I keep this? Like are you
gonna tell him no? Are yougonna be the guy that says you can't?
I don't know that's how this guyfelt. Yeah, And then uh,
I've heard over the time about supposedlypeople have told me that they,

(10:22):
like true members, had had thecopies of the book on the side of
movies and we're and we're looking atit and stuff, which kind of in
a way kind of disturbed me becauseI didn't want to. It was it's
like the uh, I always forgetthe name of the Star Trek rule of
not interfering with a with a societyPrime directive. Yeah, the prime directive,
I don't you know, obviously isnot gonna happen. But at the

(10:43):
time, I was like, Iwouldn't want them to start being self consciously
looking at the things I was pointingout about the movies, you know.
But yeah, I'm surprised. I'msurprised the title of a Seagal film yet
Seagal prime directive. That sounds justlike um. Yeah, Like I told
you, I've read up to underSiege, um, because you know,

(11:05):
I want to be fresh and surprisefor the podcast. But I was really
happy to mention that when you weretalking about Out for Justice, you mentioned
that that was one of your favoritesegall films, which kind of made me
happy because I feel it's kind ofunderappreciated. Um as a yeah, I
think I think it doesn't. Itdoesn't get like the praise that like Marked
for Death does, or the youknow, Understige, because that's more big

(11:28):
budget like you mentioned. But Ithink Out for Justice I I was reading,
I'm like, yeah, it is. It's more grimy, it's dirty,
it's dark, it's it's Seagal justabsolutely just tearing ass through. I
think Brooklyn wasn't supposed to be Um, and it is very well directed.
Um surprisingly uh. And one ofmy favorite pieces of trivia was um Seagall

(11:52):
actually going up to William Forsythe andtelling him, you know, you really
need to work on your accent,which Forsythe goes tells him, trust me
you do. And I thought that'sperfect. And Um, considering the directors
like previous work, I'm like,wow, that's kind of a jump um
because he was directing I think wascommercials Now, He's done some great John

(12:18):
Flynn, He's he was a greatdirector. He did, Uh, Ruling
Thunder is his best movie. Ifyou've ever seen that Fatuator, that's the
total classic I recommend to anybody.Yeah he uh, let me see.
I'm I'm spacing on other good oneshe did. He later did that movie
brain Scan, which is kind ofa crazy, weird, dark Oh my

(12:39):
god, I love that film.Love that film wild. It's like the
only other thing Edward for Along's done. I mean, I mean besides pet
Cemetery too and Detroit City. Yeahokay, pe Yeah, but I mean
you look, I mean I thinkof Edward for along, I think of
one thing, Yeah, the samething all of us. Yeah, I
kind of honestly, you know,brain scan. Um. I always forget

(13:05):
that he's in Detroit, Rock City. But that's like what like six years
after Terminator, But that's old,that's early two. Yeah. Yeah,
so it's like yeah, yeah,So I mean John playing another actor.
You could write a book about Edwardfor long. I'm sure, jeez,
Louise, interesting guy. So Imean John Flynn actually, you know,
he did direct it with definitely acertain style of just gritty, like I

(13:30):
think you mentioned in the book islike from the seventies, you know,
kind of that kind of um filmmakingstyle. Yeah, I think so,
like most of it anyway, there'sa little there's you know, the part
where he is confronting the guy withthe dog is a little cheesy and stuff
seems like it's from this It seemslike it's from another movie. Yeah.
You mentioned how they're pissing on thehead at the end is not a good
way to cap up your silf.But I mean like the opening, I

(13:54):
mean I always go to the openingwhere he where he like interrupts the steak
out to stop the pimp from fromfrom Beating Up, grabs grabs him by
the tie and throws him through awindshield of a car, and and the
cameras like inside the car looking upthrough the hole in the windshield, and
it freeze frames on him as itsays Steven Seagal like, I, uh

(14:15):
so, I forget which year,but several years ago I got to be
at a marathon at the Cini familyin la where they showed for for Seagal
movies and I was lucky enough tobe with them co hosting it. And
um, we showed that movie andat that moment when that freeze frame happened
and it said Steven Seagal, like, everyone just went crazy and it was
like the greatest, the greatest theatricalmoment. You know. It was.

(14:39):
Well, now, when you werewhen you were growing up, I don't
know how old you are, Um, but did you like see any Seagal
films in the theater or were theymostly like from rentals? I I didn't
start seeing them in the theater untilthe nineties, like later in the nineties
it, Um, I didn't,Uh, I was actually people, I
was surprise. I was actually afew years later on Seagal. I didn't

(15:03):
get into him until like mid nineties. Yeah, my first Seagal film was
under Siege in the theater, Imean, my first Seagal film was under
Siege two. Actually, yeah,that was my favorite, I mean my
first also, and I saw multipletimes because it was it was great.
Yeah, it's it's got a greatit's got a great Eric but Josian performance.
Let's let's heap a little bit ofpraise on good old Richard had him.

(15:24):
He can scars, his ears areprobably burning. So I mean,
look for you, Vern, I'mvery curious, uh you know there,
you know in your book you talkabout these different ages of Seagal in his
career because yeah, like kind ofTrevor has been talking about, there is
this delineation from his career in certainspots, doing certain things. So we're

(15:48):
still kind of you know again,we go back and forth, but we're
still in this very early Seagal periodfor you. Out of the first four
before Seagal becomes this kind of bigbudget actor with under Siege, which of
those first four is kind of theone that you return to the most,
Yeah, oh, alp for Justice, but then followed by Hard to Kill

(16:11):
I love Hard to Kill. Yeah, that's a that's a great movie.
Um the famous line notwithstanding, it'sit is an excellent Uh. Plus it's
got the great Bill Sadler. Yeah, I say, William Sadler is.
And I think the thing that Ilike about Hard to Kill that seems strange
when you watch it is the lackof a lack of a lack of a

(16:32):
conclusion. But the climax seems alittle stifled because he doesn't kill the bad
guy, and it's first of allthe ones that we've seen so far that
is not the case. I think. Yeah, yeah, you may have
read the chapter in my book thatI found a script, a shooting script
or something for it that had adifferent version of it where he actually does,

(16:53):
like a Nike do move on himand flips him in and pales his
head. You know, it mayit makes sense. I mean, the
end of test test audiences were shownthat, right, So I'm not sure.
Yeah, I can't remember. Yeah, I mean that that may not
a bit knowledge when when you wroteyour book. I mean, that's yeah,

(17:15):
but yeah, I was on Wikipedia. I looked. I mean,
I would pay money to see thatseed That sounds pretty great, But I
understand why they would have him.I think, yeah, I think this
is more Seagal making his more politicalviews well known, like, you know,
don't kill politicians. I want thembrought to justice. Kill politicians.

(17:37):
That's the simplest way to put it. I mean, he's a very varied
man, Steven Seagal. Well youyou at Ronnie didn't believe in it?
Yes, right, You described himas like progressive back back in the nineties.
I think it's kind of and andnow thinking to today's Siagal, Um,
it's very very progressive, so progressiveand fair. Yeah, he wants

(18:00):
he wants to progress. Putin too, well, I mean, hey,
you know what I mean. Imay have made some mistakes there in my
interpretations, but one of my favoriteall clips of him in an interview,
and every time he says Vladimir Putin, it's just have you. I don't
know if you've seen that clip verndo an accent or something, he goes
Vladimir Putin. So the answer isyes, yeah, yeah. He loves

(18:26):
code switching. He's a master ofcode switching, exactly. He is.
Sometimes sometimes he's Italian Americans, sometimeshe's Russian, sometimes he's you know,
from the Bayou or something. Yeah, but always American because you know that's
what gives him the out to hell. Yeah, he always has a great
accent because he always has the connectionin the family with whatever he's trying to

(18:48):
convey, like especially now for justiceand all that with the mob ties or
you know, the Asian uh connectionsor in Hard to Kill. How he's
he's I believe you said, he'sshown to me Catholic, but he starts
doing like these Asians Buddhists. Um, yeah, healing exactly in in her

(19:10):
friend's house, which gets fucked upbeyond repair. That's true. It's like
I hope he will not stay thereagain. Um. So you know,
Verne, we're you know, we'regoing to talk about under Siege a little
bit. I'm curious for you,Verne, as you know again as the
as the man who wrote the bookon the man who would need books written

(19:33):
about him to decode what he's allabout in a lot of ways. Um,
I'm curious for you when Seagal goesfrom small, small budget films to
the big budget action star of underSiege. In your mind, is it
is it a failure or does itor where do you come down? On

(19:55):
his big budget portion of his career. Good question. I wouldn't call it
a failure. I love, Ilove those movies, but my personal preference
is for the earlier ones because weget to you know, under Sieges.
We'll talk about this is like agreat movie and one of the one of
the best diehard rip offs, whichis a subgenre that I enjoy a lot.

(20:17):
And um, but I'm much youknow, based on his his his
talent specifically is this in addition towhatever you think of his screen presence,
it's also like this, uh whatwas then very novel style of hand to
hand combat that he introduced in themovies. And so to me, it's
much more exciting to see him inan alley like fighting, fighting some guys

(20:41):
with his hand movements and going intothe meat store and stabbing the guy with
the sausage and all that stuff andfor justice, Like I mean, it's
more and like you know, beatinga guy with the bats as opposed to
in this movie, we see alot of you know, firing a missile
that explodes and the helicopter comes inand blows up and stuff like that,
which is all fun, cool actionstuff. But I feel like it's not

(21:03):
as specific to what he's really goodat, like just kind of the street
level action is more what I'm into. Yeah, it's it's definitely it's a
great film, don't get me wrong. It's definitely a lot more polished and
a lot more audience accessible. Yeah, which is why everyone, a lot
of people that aren't haven't seen asmany of them think that's his best movie
or saying, you know, likethat one of the best. Jean Claude

(21:25):
van Dam Steven Seagal similar careers ina way, right, They're both they
both do martial arts and they areaction stars. They are both practicing,
you know, martial artists and alsoaction stars in action movies. Is it
not a good idea, then,to as a martial artist to go into
movies where they expect you to useguns all the time? Is that what

(21:47):
this is? Because I kind offeel like it his like Seagal's movies that
I've seen that are heavy in thegun play are just not that interesting.
They're just kind of Yeah, Imean, obviously he seems to love guns.
If you watched his his weird policereality show and stuff. Yeah,
a thing that actually exists in reality, So, um, you know.

(22:11):
But but yeah, as for meas if viewer, I much prefer seeing
martial arts like I'm I don't Ican't think of a Sagal movie where this
happens, but I'm I love thatcliche of like two guys have guns on
each other and they decided to putthe guns down and have a martial arts
school. Um. I'm with you, like I much prefer to see to
see that. Um and Van Damdoes it too. I mean, like

(22:34):
I recently watched Double Impact again,which is a great movie, and um,
but a lot of that is liketrying to copy the Hong Kong style
of shootouts and stuff or Hard Targethas some good guns stuff in it,
obviously, but um, whether italso has him doing spin kicks and that's
what I Yeah, that's what Iwant to see Dam dancing and doing the

(22:56):
splits is my That is my nirvana. I mean, just watch that clip
on loop for the rest of mylife. I mean it is. The
look on his face is just Ithink the other thing for me a little
bit. And as we're you know, approaching talking about under Siege, it
seems like early on Segal wasn't takinghimself as seriously as he does now,
and like Under Siege, he's stillhaving fun under Siege two, but there

(23:22):
comes a point where it seems likehe cannot um. He starts being unable
to let people write comedy for himor even like quips. And it's like
strange because I mean, in somethinglike under Siege, they're pretty good.
They're a little stilted and weird,but they're still funny and like they're still
good one miners. Oh yeah,the cooking related Yeah yeah, yeah,

(23:47):
yeah, well I also cook.That's a great how you said you're a
cook? Yeah, well that's okay. Um yeah he um. I noticed
rewatching Les say he does. There'sa lot of like him with his cooking
staff, joking around, and itseems kind of improv like dudes joking around
with each bros joking around with eachother kind of stuff. Like he seems

(24:08):
kind of better at that than delivering. Yeah, that's what I That's one
of the things I noticed about thefilm is like when Seagal is like acting
lighthearted and joking around with his buddies, I'm like, I found that kind
of really fun interesting. That wasthe personality of Segal. I kind of
wanted to see more of h butas soon as they put his ass in
the freezer, you know, itkind of well, you know, his

(24:29):
team does get killed, so Iguess there's really nothing to joke about there.
But it's it's it's it's definitely somethingof Sigal. I definitely would.
I definitely look for when I seehis films. It's like, is he
is there any part of his personalitywhere he's you know, showing more of
a accessible person. I guess youcould say, because in his films,
you know, I think, youknow, would I be able to approach

(24:52):
this man and talk to him orwould he be look at me with a
death stare and make me piss mypants? Um? So I always kind
of look for that in every Seagullfilm that I watch. Yeah, I
think that's sort of the appeal.And then also what makes some people dislike
him is that he's just like avery weird, strange man that's not a

(25:14):
regular person. Yeah, Like,holy shit, that's the most perfect way
to describe him. I mean,he like Schwarzenegger Stallone, I get the
sense of, like even with BruceWillis, like I get the sense of
who they are as a person forthe most part, Like I can form

(25:36):
in my mind kind of who theyprobably are. I could not tell you
about Steven, like he is agenuinely like befuddling human being. I think
that's part of the that's part ofan appeal, that's part of a Yeah,
it's like he's he's literally a manwith you know, not a man
with no name, a man withno background. And I mean we've kind

(25:57):
of made that Clint easy would comparisonbefore. Yeah, we have. Yeah,
where it's like, is Steven Seagalkind of trying to do the modern
day Clint Eastwood thing? I don'tthink he has to try. I think
that's definitely what he is. Ithink that's just how he is as a
person. At least. I thinkhe's streaming at a chair at least.
Yeah, being mysterious. I'm talkingabout Steven Seagale, not Clint Eastwood,

(26:19):
by the way. Yeah, heI don't think I've ever seen him name
drop clinias Wood. He talks aboutlike Robert Mitchum and stuff. But he
definitely seems like there's a line delivery, especially in his earlier ones, is
very especially like something like Dirty Harryor some of his like other spaghetti western

(26:41):
stuff or even his Yeah, it'sI don't know. Yeah, like you,
like you said Vernon, there's thisthis thing about Seagal that I it's
just an intangible thing. But Idon't What I've never been able to kind
of understand is when did people stopcaring about what made Steven Seagal intangible?
It's strange, right, at somepoint people stopped caring. I mean that's

(27:03):
why his movie stopped being successful,at least from a box office. Yeah,
I think people most A lot ofpeople turned against him for On Deadly
Ground, which is funny because it'slike the thing they we're making fun of
is actually the thing that he wasundeniably correct about the environment. Last week,
Step was like, the report isout, and I'm vindicated for on

(27:26):
Deadly Ground. But that's uh.Yeah, That's part of why his current
existence is really like disappointing to me, is just like, of all the
things, the fact that he nowwill support people that that deny climate change
and stuff like that, It's likethat seemed like something that he for real
believed in, and I guess Iguess it doesn't matter that much to him

(27:48):
anymore. Yeah, he's a Buddhistat least he's a self proclaimed Buddhist.
Yeah, which I know a coupleof self proclaimed Buddhists, and those self
proclaimed Buddhists I have asked them aboutStevens Sagal and they have said, yeah,
he's not a Buddhist, So youknow, I don't I don't know.
I mean for me, Yeah,on deadly ground. I mean,

(28:08):
I've seen it. I did ashow an episode on on my other show
about it. I can understand whypeople would turn their back on him for
that, but yeah, it is. It is like there's some cognitive dissonance
going on because, yeah, he'sreading that newspaper in Cyrillic in a country
that doesn't support climate change, andthis is I who wanted to put a
two hour speech about climate change atthe end of his movie. Yeah.

(28:32):
Yeah, they've always wanted. Isorry, I've always wondered if that's true.
About how long the original version was, I don't know, I don't.
I've never been able to verify that, but yeah, that's always been
a kind of a longgoing rumor islike, did Stevensagall actually have a you
know, a longer cut of thatspeech that you know, the supposedly I

(28:52):
I'd be hard pressed to not believeit because it seems like something Stevensokal would
do. This isn't as this isn'tsaying it as like an to the guy.
It's just that when Steven Sacol ispassionate about something, he's hard to
stop. That's good. That's agood title movie hard to Stop. I

(29:14):
don't know. I mean had variationsand yeah, yeah he did well.
Yeah, it wasn't one of ourfirst recons, like all films, just
another variant on another title Beyond theLaw, Beyond the Law, that was
beyond the law. Yeah, becausewe changed it. They changed one word,
Trevor, And you're gonna give mea hard time about me changing one
word that sounds like something too closeto above the law or beyond the law.

(29:37):
Hey, this is our this isour rapport man. Yeah, it's
fair. This is what people tunein for. Uh, I forgot what
I'm gonna say. Damn it?Do you think? I mean? I
wonder how pissed Seagal was when hisI mean, this is the height of
his career, right, and youwould agree this is the this is like
the peak Seagal. I mean,they give the guy the directorship of this
movie and they it must it musthave broken his heart. And this was

(30:00):
like one of the biggest, oneof the greatest actors have who ever lived
playing the villain. And you think, you think, wow, this is
this Michael Kine did not know whathe was getting himself into. Well,
it's the Jaws. It's I thinkMichael Kine takes the Jaws the revenge thought
process of it. Where um.When regarding to Jaws Revenge, Michael Kane

(30:22):
says, I haven't seen it.By all accounts, it's terrible, but
I have seen the house it builtand it's wonderful. Yeah, so say
I enjoy it. I like that. I maybe I haven't seen it,
so I can't pass judgment. Youhelped build that house. First. Just
think I'm the audience for for MichaelCaine's just for the money filmography. Hey

(30:45):
there, there there are people outthere. I mean, look, Michael
Caine is fun and on deadly ground. He might not think so, but
he's fucking great in that movie.Well. I mean, that's the thing
about a lot of Sigall films isthat the he They've had some of the
most in entertaining villains like William forsythesas one note as the villain was just

(31:07):
a guy who wants to fuck thingsup and cause chaos, doesn't want anything
else. He's just a crackhead ona rampage. He was still fun to
watch because William forsythe is playing itto the hilt, coming on to under
siege. Tommy Lee Jones, oneof my favorite actors, just absolutely having
a ball playing this um X.I think he was like XU Secret Service

(31:30):
or x CIA or x UM SpecialForces. Who the disguise is He's a
promoter or something like that in ain a blues band or something. Yeah,
Bad Billy and the Bail Jumpers,Bad Billy and the Bail Jumpers,
and his his fake harmonica skills aresecond to none. And then you on

(31:52):
the same film you have Gary Busey, who it's you know, it's Gary
Busey. And like you said inthe in the film, he can't play
anything but a villain unless he isplaying Buddy Holly. Yeah, and call
Meani also yeah, supporting. Yeah, that's a great cal Media is just
a uh, just a great actor. I love col Meni. He plays
that. He plays the asshole sowell. I mean see Conair. Uh.

(32:15):
He just plays it so perfectly.Um, yeah, I mean under
Sieges is it's a fun movie.Yeah. You know. The thing that
I that I really noticed watching itthe other day is, Um, normally
in a movie when they have thosescenes where they cut away to the war
room where where all the generals aretalking about what's going on, that's usually

(32:37):
like the boring movie part of themovie where you're kind of like, you
know, wanting to get back tothe other stuff. And but in unders
in under Siege, it really workslike those scenes are they're corny, but
they're like exciting scenes. Yeah.Like and you gotta give it, and
you gotta give credit to Nick Nankuso. Um you know yeah playing Tom uh

(32:57):
Tom breaker was a m breaker Yeahbreak ci um bastard Cia bastard. Uh.
The funny thing is the only thingI had known Nick Mancuso from was
this or the Apocalypse films? Um, from the from the Early to the
Do you remember those Verne at all? No? Ay? Is it like
a like a Christian it's a Christianfundamentalist thing and he plays the anti christ

(33:21):
um cool to which actually actually oneof the films is called Tribulation and It
stars Gary Busey, Margo Kidder andHowie Mandel And actually I think, okay,
I think one of the films wascalled Judgment and it had Corbyn Burnston

(33:44):
and Jessica Steine, and I thinkmister T is in it as a bag
kind movies. No, these arethe Apocalypse films. It's called the Apocalypse
uh trilogy or whatever is mister Tthe president might as well be, I
mean about it's about his theocracy asit can get. So, yeah,
go ahead for the record. Forthe record, Trevor, this is from

(34:04):
the makers of Left Behind. Apparentlythis was something else they worked on that
sounds just like the same port.What the fuck? I was excited when
I learned I was looked up.When I'm writing about a movie, I
always look up IMDBs IF everyone andtry to find the weirdest things that they've
been in. And yeah, Ilove that. Yeah about the book,
is that you you said you connectum people Sigals worked with before um at

(34:29):
the end of the chapter. Ohyeah, thank you. Yeah. And
apparently it happens more often than Ithought it did. Yeah, especially with
there's a lot of stunt men thatwill end up repeating obviously, but yeah,
yeah, but I um, Iwas excited to learn that Nick Mancuso
was the voice on the phone inthe original Black Christmas. He's like the
right, right, I remember mentioningthat the weird voice that you're hearing or

(34:52):
whatever. Billy. Yeah, yeah, so so for you, Vern,
I mean again, we have thesewe have this area of Seagal's career from
under siege on deadly ground, undersiege to executive decision, a glimmerman and
fire down below you. This isthis kind of next set of his movies

(35:13):
is under Siege, the best ofall of them, is the most competently
made, or is on deadly groundkind of where you where you hang your
hat. Well, if you're sayingcompetently made, then um, it might
be under siege. Um. Ilove Under the Ground because of the I
mean, I'm sure you'll do anepisode about it, assumed, But it's

(35:34):
like, um, I mean,I think it has legitimate the feel of
a legitimate big studio action movie witha lot of cool stuff in it,
and it has all these great likeyou mentioned Michael Caine, but there's also
like early Billy Bob Thornton and hegets some funny lines that seem improvised and
like Arley Army has like some incredibledialogue in that movie, and um,

(35:54):
John McGinley outside was trying to think, Um, yeah, it's it's like
it's such a fun movie. Andand and then also it has this kind
of all the political stuff that Imentioned, kind of like we haven't you'll
get to the scene. There's ascene I absolutely love where he gets in
this bar fight with Mike Starr thecharacter Mike Star the Charactercter Max Star,
and it's and yeah, and thepoint of this he's like humiliates him and

(36:19):
then kind of they make makeup andtalk about the possibility for change in a
man's life, you know. AndI absolutely love that because that's like,
that's so like who does that inan action movie? And a lot of
a lot of people think like that'sa negative thing, but to me,
it's like, that's awesome. Iwant to see something like that in an
action movie. So so that's whythat one's my favorite. But do you

(36:39):
think that would have changed the outcomesof like um Mark for Death or out
for justice if after the bar fightshe just tried to talk to the bartender
one about fighting Ko or finding Richiethat scene and on Deadly Ground. I
think I mentioned it on my showwhen we did the episode. I think

(37:00):
for me, it's like the bestthing that Segal is done is that scene.
And I mean, yeah, ifI had to pick, you can't
really pick your favorite scene out ofan entire career where you like a lot
of the movies, but that's definitelyif I had to, that might be
it it. I think for meit speaks to in my mind what Seagal
either was all about or I thinknow in a lot of ways again with

(37:24):
the cognitive dissonance, especially with hisenvironmental message kind of getting lost. To
me, it seems like that sceneis either what Segal was or what Seagal
aspires to be your beliefs in likeit his core being is like we can
all do better, and like hejust doesn't subscribe to that. It doesn't
seem in a lot of ways anymore. Yeah, but it's like it's it's

(37:45):
like a very it's a very touchingscene in a way that like a scene
in a movie with Michael Caine withshoe polish hair dye on doesn't normally like
that. That that nine times outof ten, that's not in that kind
of movie. Yeah, exactly,That's what I know about it. I
think one thing we should mention isthat, you know, a lot of
a lot of credit has to begiven to some of the directors he's worked

(38:07):
with. UH, like, especiallywith Andrew Davis, who he worked with.
UM with uh, I believe hisfirst about the Line and an under
Siege. And Andrew Davis has provenhimself to be just a very competent action
director. He knows how to howto film shots and how to um makes
it all look good. Um.I mean he made Harrison Ford a believable

(38:30):
action star. Well. I mean, Harrison Ford is a good action star
in the things that he's in.But I would not consider Harrison Ford an
action star because if you look atthe way Indiana Jones throws a punch,
looks like an actor throwing a punch. I like, I believe in The
Fugitive that Harrison Ford is an actionstar, and I give Andrew Davis all

(38:52):
that credit because of his his directionis impeccable in The Fugitive. The Fugitive
is is a almost perfect movie alot of ways. It's a it's a
terrific film. Um. I mean, like I said Andrew Davis, I
don't think gets enough credit as adirector, as a competent action director.
Um, he's not as over thetop style as like John wu or even

(39:16):
hell Michael Bay. But then again, that guy's more um style than substance.
UM. But I think he's definitelyum. He knows that he knows
about pacing, and I think thatthat that, like me, that makes
for a lot, you know,especially in a Segal film. Yeah,
I think I think he's good withkind of a texture to his movies.

(39:37):
Also, where like in Above theLot, he really creates this. He's
from Chicago, and he really treatsChicago like you know, the cliche is
like treating the city like a character. But he really establishes this world of
like these you know, when Segalis fighting a guy in an Ali you
see you hear like a dog barkingdown the street and a guy up in
a building going down Adam and stufflike that. He really creates this world.

(39:59):
And he does the same thing andin this with the with the just
the world of this aircraft carrier andall the people that are working on it,
and like the people of the kitchenstaff and all the soldiers over here,
and he makes you care about theminorist of characters, with which seems
effortless the way he does it,because you're they're only on screen for like

(40:20):
a mentor or two, and theyget sporadic scenes throughout the film, but
you still kind of want them tomake it out of this alive. Um,
Like especially the crew he rescues fromthe from the one brig. Yeah,
and you know he's they're the onesthat help him, like do that
big shootout. Uh So I think, um, you're right about Chicago being

(40:42):
a character. Um, Like hedid that again in The Fugitive. I
remember, um the great overhead shotsof downtown Chicago, especially during St.
Patrick's day, beautifully done beautifully AndCode of Silence also, which is weirdly
similar to Above the Law but withChuck Morris and there's a robot in it,
but Henry Silva doesn't it. YeahsAndry Silva is the bad guy and

(41:02):
everything that's that's a good Yeah.I kind of like Chain Reaction. That's
another Andrew Davis movie. Oh yeah, I haven't. I haven't seen it
since it came out, where Iwas disappointed at the time, but I
definitely revisit that sometime. Yeah,it's it's kind of weird like it has
uh, it has um Rachel Weissvery early on in her career. Yeah,

(41:28):
I haven't seen it, but Iyeah, it's yeah, it's got
Keana Reyes, Rachel Weiss, MarganFreeman. Uh is John anything since two
thousand and six though really no.Last movie that he did was The Guardian
that Aaron Ashton Kutcher, Kevin Costnermovie. Oh, I mean it's not
that William Freakin fell about the PossessedTree. It's a it's a remix.

(41:51):
Yeah, Ashton Kutcher place the Tree. That's his range so Verne with with
Under Siege, we have a movie, like Trevor's mentioned, that has Tommy
Lee Jones opposite Steven Seagal. Andwe've seen, now, you know,
with the movies that we've either talkedabout for our show or we've seen,
you know, in our own timeor you know, in our own lives,
we noticed that, like Trevor mentioned, Segal when he's up against someone

(42:14):
who is a great actor, seemsto really flourish as as an action star
too, like especially in Under Siegetwo with Eric but goes in and this
with Tommy Lee Jones. It's alittle disappointing to see in his more recent
stuff they don't give that some thoughtlike they do here, because I would
contend that Tommy Lee Jones is asgood as Seagal is in this movie.

(42:37):
Yeah, I mean he's he's nowworking in a world where partly because of
the way budgets have gone, andpartly because if his own personal choices that
he's probably filming scenes all by himselfand not you know, like the people
that are playing the villains or peoplethat could come in for four days for
a certain amount of money or whatever, and so it's not going to be

(42:58):
the same thing obviously. Well,I mean, I mean they can't afford
the pedigree of actors like they couldback and when he was in his prime.
Um, it's just unfortunate to seeit now, like he plays well
off of all these people like GaryBusey and Steven Seagal played really well off
of each other. Yeah, Imean see from the beginning, there's no

(43:19):
hiding this guy's a prick, uh, I mean, like it's not a
when when it's revealed that he's oneof them, you think, you know,
you're thinking, well, that's he'san asshole. Um. I was
thinking when he when he uh,after he has been wearing the dress and
bobs, and which made some guygo say that like, oh, I

(43:40):
guess he's really cool after all,which I didn't understand. He's letting his
hair down, but then I'm sorry. Yeah, And the scene after that
was talking to the captain or whatever, the guy who captain Yeah, and
he's still wearing the thing, andmade me think of that. He was
a big adventure where he after theyget through the roadblock and he's still like

(44:04):
dressed as a woman afterwards, andhe's okay with it, and he's looking
at him with like that really creepylook. Um, well, Pepe's still
wearing the dresses that with the oneyou're talking about. Yeah, well,
just like the kind of Yeah,I like him, but he just the
idea that it doesn't it doesn't seemunusual to him at all. He's not
gonna no uncomfortable where I wish partof me kind of wishes he'd have stayed

(44:29):
in the outfit for the entirety ofthe film. Definitely, I don't know
that would have many more instring uhwith Seagal, though we have this thing
where it's like the he really playswell with these other character act. Yeah
he does. But but but vern, I'm curious because I have my own
opinion, and I I'm curious whatyours is. Uh. Steven Seagal and
his romantic leads in the movie,it's it. You've seen all the movies.

(44:54):
We haven't seen all of them yet, we're working through them. Is
there ever a belief vable romantic complike a romantic comedy, that's an idea
romantic Steven Seagal? Good god?Um, is there ever a romantic lead
because that he gets along with?Because Erica Eleniac sure is not one of
them. Can I can I saysomething quick before you answer? That was

(45:16):
the most out of nowhere, unnecessary, um ending scene of a movie.
It's like this at the end thekiss, I'm like, where the fuck
did that come from? Ericaac isstill asking herself. Yeah, there's no
there's that at all. Yeah,I mean, I guess the only answer

(45:37):
would be, um, Kelly LeBrockbecause they're married at the time or shortly
afterwards, I forget. But um, even then, it's kind of weird.
And then uh, yeah, onceyou get into some of the prime
DTV like the better DTV stuff.They still have like a lot of weird
things where he has a woman that'smuch younger than him and there's a weird

(45:58):
kissing scene that she seems uncomfortable in. She felt uncomfortable, He felt uncomfortable,
You felt unable. Everybody's uncomfortable.It's just a bad feeling all around.
Uh, speaking of uncomfortable, youcan't remove whose Seagal is not in
the movie from him in the moviein some respects. Well, yeah,
you think I know who he is, so well, whatever, he's paired

(46:21):
up with a young, younger womanin a film, you have to think
yourself, that has to be Sigall'sinput. This is not from This is
all a Seagal. You definitely getthat. It's easy to assume. Um,
there's this one scene and Hard toKill where we first meet Kelly LeBrock
and Steven Seagal is in his comaand she basically checks him out. Yeah,

(46:45):
doesn't she like almost actually assault him? Very civil of you, an,
Yeah, And she's like she's veryunprofessional as nurses go, Like this
woman should have been fired a longtime ago, very meal. But since
you know she's Kelly LeBrock, andshe was still in her prime hotness.

(47:06):
You know, guys will want tosee that and think themselves, well,
I wish I was in a coma. What. Yeah, well, I'll
say this in his not really inhis defense, but I was lucky enough
to be able to see his bandplay one time years ago. You'll it's
in the back of the book,my review of the show. And afterwards

(47:30):
he did he signed autographs, andI was next to these two women who
were so into him, and theywere they they they had a they had
a towel, a sweat towel thathe had thrown into the crowd, and
one of them caught it, andthey were asking other people in line if
they had a knife, and somebodyhad a knife so they could cut it

(47:51):
in half so that each of themcould get one half of it. So
yeah, now that knife has likeall sweat on it. So my only
point being that there are because ofhis movie starting, I guess, but
there are some people that do findhim very attractive, so I guess.
Yet, let's talk about his musicand his placement of his music in the

(48:13):
film, because one of the lastepisodes we did was called Attrition, and
at the end of the film,suddenly they're in a dance club with Steven
Seagal's band playing, and they're alldancing and just enjoying it. And I
didn't realize like how much of hismusic was he made part of his films,
how early in his career he didit. I thought that was more
of a recent thing, but apparentlyhe's been doing it since, like I

(48:37):
think the Outford Justice days or beforethen. Yeah, there's early on.
There's a lot of songs that hehas involved an instant and they're not terrible
by any stretch of the imagination.I mean, it's easy to say ha
ha sak All being a musician,you know he sucks, but you know
I've heard a lot worse. Imean that's not high praise, but um,

(48:58):
but they're not bad. I mean, yeah, that was That was
the amazing thing about seeing his bandis like you're looking up there and he's
wearing like an orange sleeveless like um, like Asian style shirt. Yeah,
like you would imagine he would bewearing. And he's playing a flying v
guitar and he's very tall. Youknow, you're seeing him a personally going
holy shit, that's Steven Seagal.There's like people there with their out for

(49:21):
Justice laser disc they want to getsigned. And his I mean, to
my amateur ears, like it seemedlike he was a really good like guitar
player, and definitely his band wasreally really tight, Like his band was
definitely good and uh so it wasvery surreal experience. And then he's singing
and he's he has a song calledAlligator Ass and different, you know,

(49:45):
and you're he's not as good asa singer as he as a guitar player,
and he but you know, you'rehearing that. You can tell that
Steven Seagal's voice singing and it's kindof amazing. Yeah. Well, and
didn't I mean Stevie Wonder worked withhim on that two thousand and five albums,
So I think he plays harmonica ifI remember, right, Yeah,
yeah, yeah. You know thething about Seagal, there are these things

(50:07):
about him that, to your point, Trevor would be kind of you know,
low hanging fruit. And I thinkthat again, I think it's because
of who Seagal is, not whathe's doing. Like you've seen tons of
actors go and have you know,pretty fruitful, fruitful music careers or vice
versa. You know, musicians becomingactors. But yeah, I mean once

(50:30):
it's you know, like you said, Verd there's six foot four Steven Seagal
Satan with his fucking guitar. It'slike, Okay, this is a little
different. You know, this isnot he's the dude's a weird guy.
But he's fascinating. Yeah, that'sthe thing. And I've always been fascinated

(50:50):
with the way every time he doesget into a new thing, he kind
of claims to have always been likehe'll have a story about like when I
was a kid, I was sittingon a on the porch with this blues
man who taught me such and such, just the same way. I mean,
the story is a lot of whathe says about Japan. It's verifiable
that he really was one of thefirst, well he says, the first

(51:13):
Westerner to run a dojo and thatin Japan, and that kind of came
through being married to the daughter ofthe owner from what I understand. But
but it is a real thing thathe really was there. But then he
also claims to have known the founderof Ike do um and he but there
are there are photos of him,like seeing him speak and um. But

(51:35):
then also he claims to have atone time he's claimed to have been in
the CIA. And then when hestarted getting into playing Russian mobsters, it
was like he started talking about howhe had Russian background, which hadn't been
a thing before. And when hewrote he wrote a book a few years
ago, and in that he claimsthat he has Native American blood in him,

(51:55):
which I don't think he had everclaimed, even in in the movies
where he was married to Native Americanwomen and when he was wearing Native American
garb. Yeah. Yeah, Sohe's always kind of evolving what his backstory
is, which isn't it. Ifit was a guy that I hung out
with, it would make me veryuncomfortable. But when it's a guy that
whose movies I watch, it's interesting. Yeah, that's a good point.

(52:17):
It's like if you were if youwere around this person and he were sitting
with you at a table and hestarted spouting all this, you'd be like,
oh damn, look at the timeI got to catch a cab or
you would just be like what areyou your full shit? Like, what
are you talking about? Yeah,but you don't know how dangerous that person
is, and that's the I mean, I think that's the thing about Seagal

(52:37):
that like, if I'm sitting herethinking about all the other action stars,
his contemporaries, Van Damn, there'sno question where that guy's from. Schwarzenegger,
there's no question where Schwarzenegger's from Stallonecutting to no question where Stallone is
from. But Seagal, it isweird if you think about it, and
it's interesting. Segal can kind ofplay all these different like you said,

(53:00):
ver Russian or Native American. Liketo his credit, I kind of just
believe him because he's there's something abouthim. Yeah, like you, but
part of you wants to believe itbecause yeah, it's movies. It's its
more exciting. Yeah yeah, itadds the mystique of the of the actor,

(53:21):
not not just a character. Yeahyeah, I mean, but he
does it, like you said,Verney does it in all kinds of stuff.
Like thinking about it now, likethe whole Russia thing does kind of
feel like an extension of his Russiamovies in a way, because like whatever
I think of his DTV stuff especiallyis like mid two thousands, I just
think of like this was probably shotin Eastern Europe. Somewhere. Yeah,

(53:42):
most likely. I mean, Imean have a good relationship with the countries
you shoot your movies in. Yeah, and I mean probably cheaper to film
there too. Well. Well,yeah, they're filming and they're filming in
Bulgaria for a reason. It's becausethey want to fly everybody on the crudibul
Gara. Let me ask you aquestion, Burn Sure. There's a lot

(54:04):
of talk in the in your bookabout you know, his co star buddies
in the film, people who playhis friends, his confidence. Who do
you think was like the strongest andthe best confidence he had in a in
a in a film. Probably KeithDavid in in Mark for Death. Yeah,
that's like one of the maybe theonly one where the guy is like
where the sidekick guy is of equalbad assist pretty much. Well, yeah,

(54:28):
because it's Keith David. Yeah.Yeah, you can't really, you
can't really can't. You can't reallysee his friend and hard to kill being
a being a badass. Wasn't thatthe guy who played the cop in Wayne's
World? Oh yeah, I thinkyou're right. Yeah, yeah, Um,
I mean he could give you acombody cavity search, but he don't
think he could. You know,kick your ass like seagalcan uh yeah,

(54:51):
um, he's definitely hold on.I have a question, Burne speaking of
questions, Okay, this is somethingthat Trevor and I have noticed in almost
every movie we watched, at leastthe later ones and the more recent movies.
Of the early ones and definitely hislater stuff that were like the recent
stuff, Segal never lets his opponentget much like the Final Boss of the

(55:13):
movie The Final Villain. They havea very protracted fight scene, like Seagal
doesn't want to look weak when hefights someone in a movie. Have you
is that something that like you havenoticed too, or is that just a
weird coincidence now? I think Ithink that's definitely. His style is to
be like the unstoppable tank bulldozer,you know that plows through everyone. And

(55:40):
I think this is this is kindof controversial, like a lot of people
claim a lot of people like tosay that the only way to do it
is like the diehard style of likeif they're really vulnerable and they get injured
and it's really difficult for them,that's the only way to do to do
a good action star. And Ithink usually that is the case. But

(56:00):
also Seagal is an example in hisbest movies of where it can be cool
to see the guy that you justknow, oh man, they're in trouble
now because you know Niko or whoeveris coming in and it's gonna take care
of this, you know. Oranother example I like to point to is
Blood and Bone with Michael Ji White. If you've ever seen that, it's
a like a no you I highlyrecommend Blood and Bone starring Michael Ji White.

(56:23):
It's like a two thousand and nineI think is when it came out.
It's straight to video movie, andit's kind of in the tradition of
the great like the best Van Damnmovies. It's like an underground fighting movie.
But but Michael Ji White is aguy who just absolutely plows through every
opponent that comes after him, andit's, you know, you are never
upset that he doesn't get injured.It's it's always fun to watch. What's

(56:45):
funny. What's funny Verne is whenyou say it that way, it kind
of doesn't bother me because it's almostlike like some of the best James Bond
movies. He doesn't fight the villainlike you know, I mean, in
a way in a way. Ithink the issue that maybe I've had and
I've never voiced it correctly, isin if they here's a final villain,

(57:05):
like say an under siege too,right, you have Eric Bogozian who is
not a physical threat to Steven Seagal. I think the three of us would
agree. Stephen Seagal would turn EricBogozian inside out unless they were doing a
monologue. Right, sure, exactlyplaying to his strengths. One might say,
but yet Everett Gill in that movieis the Heavy. I think my
issue in some of these movies withSeagal is there is no secondary villain,

(57:29):
no heavy. And I think ifyou have the Heavy and Segal fight and
then it's okay they had like ayou know, brawling fight, and then
you have the other guy out inthe background waiting or watching hoping that his
guy wins, I think that wouldfix it because I've just every time Segal
gets in like a fight with someone, it's like they're dead immediately. I'm
just like, whoa guys like,let this climax, breathe a little bit.

(57:52):
Yeah, that's true. That iskind of the style of like the
bad guy in like in Hard toKill it's like he's a sleeves ball and
he's mean to women and drinks champagneand the hot tub and you hate him,
like he's a piece of shit,but he's not necessarily like you don't
ever believe he's going to be ableto take on Segal physically. No.

(58:13):
Um, so that's just kind ofthe style, is like you want to
see him eventually get past all thehenchmen and then just destroy that guy and
then and then he doesn't in thatcase. But um, that said,
under Siege, the final fight withwith Tommy Lee Jones, you wouldn't expect
it, but like that's a greatknife fight scene. You know, it's
pretty short, but but it seemsconvincing that Tommy Lee Jones is like a

(58:35):
good knife fighter, like you know. Yeah, plus they mentioned his background
of Special Forces. Yeah, soit gives him some credibility. And uh,
plus that knife in the head andthen that was both they're both bluesmen,
so they have a lot in common, right of course. Another thing
I noticed about is Understiege is thatit's it's different in the fact that Seagal

(59:00):
has more help in this one.Usually in his films, he more is
a loaner works alone, you know, kicks ass alone and all that stuff
only goes to his friend when heneeds like information, like exposition. But
in Understiege, he actually has peoplehelping him, also with guns, also
fighting, and that was kind ofit's it's it's it's more different from the

(59:21):
usual Sigal find him surprised Segal wasokay with it. Um like that surprised
he was okay with it? Well, would you disagree? No, I
mean that was I mean again,we have this theory that like Segal doesn't
like Seed in control of the screento anyone else, And I don't think
it's a theory. I think it'sjust I think that's what's going on.

(59:42):
But it was kind of it wasrefreshing to see him partly ensemble rather than
Loan Loan army. You know.Yeah. I think that's also why it's
not really my favorite understandable. Yeah, yeah, they do. They give
They give Erica a Lineac's character alot more time than I would have thought
they should. I have a questionfor you about her, because I've never

(01:00:07):
been able to understand this. Atthe end, do you think she's supposed
to have enlisted because she's wearing asailor outfit at the funeral, and it
seems like they wouldn't be still havingthe funeral without having gone ashore, would
they. Well, I mean,she didn't have any other clothes, sort
of like just put this on,but they're having the funeral before going ashore
and letting her leaves. Like,yeah, that's what I don't figure.

(01:00:28):
I mean, I have no idea. I've never understand I've always wondered which
I feel like it either means thatshe what you're saying, that they put
the clothes on her, but thenwhy would they be having the funeral not
a clue, or it might belike she she she discovered what a badass
she is in that experience, andnow she's enlisted in working killed one guy.

(01:00:50):
She killed one guy. Do youknow what I wonder? She became
very serious then, you know whatI you know what I find strange.
You're talking about her costume. MHer costume in the movie is very strange
because they're just like, okay,here like look like a look look like
a male sidekick. Yeah. AndI was just sitting there thinking to myself,

(01:01:13):
like was this originally written for amale sidekick? Because that would make
the stripper subplot a lot more interesting. But it would make but it would
it would make sense as to whythat kind of is just like that is
just in addition to they could havejust had a band come onto the boat.
I think it's just supposed to beher arc that she goes from being

(01:01:34):
like a helpless person to discovering thatshe can handle herself, and so they
visually represent that by having her tobe wearing tough, tough guy clothes.
And plus yeah, plus I likehow you mentioned how it kind of brings
the ET thing full circle being thatand hard to Kill. They're watching the
Oscars and his son wants ET towin and Erica lenniacs and ET and full

(01:01:57):
circle to Rika Lenniac in Undersiege Psychic. You know it all ties together?
Therek go man, there you go? Um? Maybe Ben Kingsley uh from
Gandhi wool. Yeah, back inthe day he when he was making real
movies, that would he would havebeen a good. When Sega was making
real movies, that would have beena good. Villain was making real movies

(01:02:21):
like under Siege three with that wouldbe Kingsley would have been a good I'm
kind of surprised that it never happenedgiven. I mean again, we were
we talked about it before we startedrecording, but we are. We Trevor
and I are friends with Rich Adam, who wrote under Siege two. Under
Siege two started out as something else, it was not under Siege two.

(01:02:42):
Under Siege was put on that scriptand it turned into an under Siege script.
I wonder if they kicked the ideaaround for under Siege three at some
point. I would assume that theydid, because under Siege two was a
financial success. Yeah, There's beena lot of rumors over the years about
different supposed like ideas I supposed had, But I wouldn't be surprised if I
Understiege, if they had an Understiegethree script and it just became another film

(01:03:06):
entirely. Has that happened? Thathappened a lot in the nineties. Um,
there was even there, There wasn'teven there was even a lethal weapons
script that became die Hard with aVengeance through you know. Um, yeah,
we got five Diehards and we onlygot two Undersieges. What really is
the travesty here? I mean,there's only a certain well there's actually only
four Diards. Oh, God,don't just I just don't acknowledge. I

(01:03:31):
don't acknowledge the fifth Wait there wasa fifth one? I didn't Yeah,
the one with one. There's nofifth onthe bro Chris. I'm not going
to let they made that movie.They made that choice. They released a
goddamn movie. We all have howhard it is to make a fucking movie.
It doesn't just sprout out of thewell spring of someone's mind. They

(01:03:54):
sat on stage on set for daysfilming that movie, and so burn,
Yeah this is good. Vern.I don't know if you can see behind
me, but I have a BluRay Diehard collection that in a Nakatomi tower
gift sets, four movies in anda bonus disc of a fan film that

(01:04:16):
you know wasn't very good. Umfan film that just happens to include Bruce
Willis. Yeah, well it's not. He's not exactly expensive anymore. Apparently
not. No, some some somefan director named John Moore who wanted to
make his own, uh, hemade his own omen fan film. He
made you know it is film.Is it interesting that Bruce Willis's career has

(01:04:42):
kind of morphed into sigals too,It's kind of gone that same path,
right, I mean Bruce Willis.Bruce Willis is in a lot of direct
to streaming stuff now right. Yeah, he's the guy I see on the
DVDs now that I would have seenin the two thousands, worst Cigal if
he went to Walmar and looked downtheir DVD aisle, it's Bruce Willis straight
to DVD movies, I guarantee you. In the mid two thousands it was

(01:05:04):
Sigals. Yeah, he's very proliftic, and that's kind of upsetting because I
love Bruce Willis. The man isI agree, you know, the man
is just he's got personality. He'skept mostly his his figure. Um.
But the problem with with with himis is it just he doesn't seem to
give a shit anymore. Yeah.I wouldn't go as far as to say

(01:05:27):
that the worst thing that Bruce Willisever did was beating die Hard because it
typecast him for the rest of hiscareer and he will not an action star.
I mean, he was still able, he was still able to do
pulp fiction and the sixth sense andall kinds of He had his whole,
quiet, quiet, sad Bruce whenI was content he might have had those
earlier if he had never been anaction star. I mean he was in

(01:05:48):
moon Lighting. I mean that washyper popular. I mean I think for
Bruce willis making die Hard yet itvaults him to the fame and fortune of
die Hard for Fox's sake, butit type so it also began a uh
the epidemic of Diehard on a Diehardon this I heard that. I don't
consider that an epidemic at all.I consider that a grand tradition. Well,

(01:06:13):
I mean it's interesting, it's interesting. So people in your mind,
what is the best version of that? Is it Underseige? Uh? That's
a good question. I mean underSiege is obviously one of the best,
but I I sort of prefer underSiege too. Honestly, I'm a big
fan of under Siege too. UmSpeed speed is obviously a great one.

(01:06:36):
Uh. I enjoy sudden Death uhchunk of Indian um not to be confused
and welcome to Sudden Death with MichaelJay White yea, which is okay,
but cheap, cheap, cheesy.Uh what am I forgetting? There's there's
some other good ones. I thinkone of my favorites is is Toy Soldiers,

(01:06:58):
which is die Hard in a school. I guess you could call it.
I thought that was kind of underrated. I don't know if you've seen
it Burn have you I have?Yeah, Yeah, that's pretty fun.
Um, let me see there's dieHard, I mean, is Cliff does
Cliffhanger count all? You mean,so that might be the best that's up
there. Die Hard on a Mountain, I mean, I don't know.
There were also that Thomas Ian Griffithcracker Jack film, which was die Hard

(01:07:23):
on a Mountain literally is basically thesame plot points as die Hard. Even
getting Christopher Plummer to play the badguy is executive decision. Technically die Hard
on another Plane. Yeah, Iwas gonna say that they probably counts.
I mean, it's definitely in thatcoming out of that that style of movie,
whether or not it's based on thetemplate exactly. I mean, Colin

(01:07:46):
Air I don't know if that's reallydie Hard ish, It's it's more kind
of just I don't know, therock that's Hard on Alcatraz Michael based film.
It's definitely coming out of that AirForce one. Die Hard on yet
another plane, that's no die Hard. Diehard with the President is President?

(01:08:06):
Did President die Hard? Yeah?Diehard six President McLean? Yeah, but
I would say definitely, Yeah,my favorites of the Undersiege movies and Speed
are probably my favorites of this.But I just in general, when it's
well done, I enjoy that Startedtemplate, following the Diehard template and die
Hard two, and yeah, elevatesunder Siege in your opinion, I'll be

(01:08:28):
Understiage two to be better than Understiegeone because I'm not disagreeing with you,
because I fucking love Understage two.Yeah. Um, I mean it's hard
for me to say it's better.I just personally like it even more because
it's it's hard to say that thatEric Bagoshen is better than Timmy ly Jones
because TIMI ly Jones is so greatand having so much fun. But but
just it's more more novel to seeEric begoshin as as the super genius villain

(01:08:53):
in an action movie. This isa guy for being a dramatist voice generation,
and he gets these great monologues andjust the sardonic, sardonic humor,
and he gets to have a prettyhilarious death where he blows up in a
fiery occasion. And and you mentionedMcGill. He's like he's like in very

(01:09:13):
little else yeah, the part,Yeah, the part where he sprays the
pepper spray in his mouth like abanaka. I believe it. I believe
it. With never Miguel, I'mlike, yep that. Yeah. And
you know, I was thinking whenyou when you were talking earlier about the
about Underseige, how he works withthe team. I think Understiege two is

(01:09:35):
a little less like that. Likehe's got Morris Chess, mat and Um
to a degree, Caine and KatherineHeigel. Yeah, so he's working with
them, but otherwise he's just them, and he's teaching them how to how
to aim a gun like he doeswith Erica Liniac. Yeah. And then
uh, it's a little more basedin like I'm a badass going through this

(01:09:55):
train doing some cool hand may He'son a guy and breaking his wrists and
climbing on the and it's got thepart where he gets off the train and
jumps that truck on off of thecliff. Yeah. I love how he
running. I love how he outrunsthe trains that are crashing into each other
just by mere feet out running them, sheer force of will. Cheer for
um. I told Chris the story, but this is my story. How

(01:10:18):
I went and saw underseag Too.I was fifteen. This was like,
um, after my freshman year ofhigh school. UM. I called my
body buddy Bobby up because originally itwasn't going to be under Siege Too.
It was I wanted to see Cluelessbecause you know, it's a movie I
could get into and it looked fun. So I'm like, hey, Bobby,
you want to go see Clueless?He goes no, I want to
see Underseage too. I go no, I want to see Clues. He

(01:10:39):
goes, no, under Siege Too. I said, Bobby. He goes
no, under Siege Too. SoI'm like, and me, this is
in high school. I had noself esteem, no backbone. I'm like,
all right, finally see Undersiege two. So I had my dad buy
the tickets and that's how we gotin. Um a lot of great R
rated movie stories with Bobby. Um. But that's how I saw Undersea Too.
And I felt like I was gettingaway with something because I was watching

(01:11:00):
this um incredible action film with noparents around me. I know that's silly
to hear, but yeah, underSiege Too was like it almost felt like
a rite of passage watching a sigalaction film in the theater, not just
on video, you know, becauseyou know, it feels more like an
accomplishment when you see it in atheater before you're seventeen. Yeah. Um,

(01:11:25):
but yeah, that was my firsttheatrical experience and it might have been
my last. I'm not sure,because that was that was towards the natter
or well, I mean he hada I mean he has to two more
years of stuff. Um. Butagain, like like we've already kind of
mentioned that saw everything after that,I mean in the theater yet, love

(01:11:54):
as far as I guess, Machetewas his last one that played in Oh
I saw that one. Yeah,Um, Fired down Below. My favorite
thing about Fire down Below is howmany just like country western singers are in
that movie. Yeah, that's thecountry, that's the goals country movie.
Yeah, I mean you've got Mark, was it Mark, Collie, Chris
Christoffersons, Yeah, Travis, Trip, Marty Stuart, Randy Travis, Like

(01:12:18):
what twin daughters are in it?Yeah? Oh my god, that's right.
It's I remember the first time,I think the first Seagal movie I
ever saw was Fired down Below,And because I remember seeing the preview and
it's like this summer Steven Ciagal isfire down Below, and I was like,
fuck, this is great, Likewhatever the fuck this is. This

(01:12:40):
was like two thousand and eighteen.I was just on Apple TV just grolling
through trailers. I was like,fuck, this all looks cool. But
it's that whole thing with all thecountry Western singers is strange cool. That's
strange. Back on the on theunderstieged topic, it's, um, it's
interesting how this is kind of likewe're discussing how this kind of like his

(01:13:03):
big push into the mainstream and kindof more for normal people to watch.
But he's still when he's in themilitary, he's still allowed to just wear
normal black clothes. He gets getscriticized for it, but he just wears
his black shirt and he and hejust gets to talk back to everyone.
And he's legendary because he punched outhis his his CEO. Yeah, yeah,

(01:13:29):
are you talking about a job.Are you talking about the time where
they got the bad intel information andhe punched him when he got back,
or are you talking about when hepunched Gary Busey? Oh the first one,
but he also punched is Gary Busey? That's true? Yeah, but
looking in his so I just lovethis idea of stevens Agal making hour how
much did he say? How much? Goddamn boy, it was a big

(01:13:54):
he says it to He says itto um, He says it to the
commander Patrick O'Neill's character. He's like, it's like, Captain, I have
like fifty yellards of Buoya Base tomake like what of course, and they've
ruined all those pies. That's justwrong. I'm asking your man take my
pies out. Take out my pies. They could have those pies. There's

(01:14:15):
no reason to let them burn.No, okay. One thing. Did
he even give a reason why hedidn't want to change into attire or was
he just being a stubborn asshole.I think it's just to show that he,
even when he's in the military,he's an individual. You know.
Yeah, it's like, dude,just change your fucking attire. You're not
you're not you're not cow telling tothe man here. You're just for a

(01:14:39):
captain's party. Steven a individual man, Huh. Another thing? And another
thing, they gave him the mostfucking obstinate, stubborn guy to watch him
while he's in the freezer. Iwanted to talk about that guy. Yeah,
yeah, I hear fun shots.Check it out. It's a shippaide
bro. I think that guy's areally accurate portrayal of a certain type of

(01:15:02):
like boot Liquer kind of guy that'slike he's just believes what he was told
and he so he's like this,you know, he doesn't believe, he
doesn't believe sgaland it seems he's lyingto him. I just love how the
part where he rolls his eyes sizeand goes right back. Dude, there's
gunshots. You're not even gonna check. Tom Wood is much better in The

(01:15:26):
Fugitive than he is in this movie. Let's just put it that way.
Yeah, he plays one of likehe ends up being with Tommy Lee Jones
in The Fugitive on the like thesquad of people that go to catch Harrison
Ford, and then he's in Yeah, and then he's he's the guy that
dies in US Marshals. Okay,I didn't. I haven't seen those in

(01:15:47):
a while, but I haven't seenUS Marshals because it just it's so good.
It's pretty good. Yeah. AllI know is that Robert Downey Junior
turns out to be one of thebad guys. Is he's a bad guy.
Oh he is. Okay, that'swhen casting Robert Downey Junior in your
movie meant nothing, So he couldbe although I do love I do love

(01:16:09):
a good Joey Pants film, soI'll probably check out. Sincerely, I
think that that character is really youknow, he's very hateable, but in
a way that I feel is veryrecognizable as a real type of person.
Like my favorite part is when hehears he finally he hears the gunshots and
he finally listens enough to be like, oh, I should go check on

(01:16:29):
that. And then they tell himlike, oh, it's just party poppers.
And then then it comes back andsays to Seagal, Yeah, he's
like it's just party poppers. Likehe's telling them, like, you're the
fucking idiot you believe that it wasgunstoppers. Let's let's let's hear the party
poppers in the kitchen of this ship. Day guy. Let's let's let's let's
go back here. This man hasmilitary training, this subordinate suppose I assume

(01:16:55):
he's fired a gun, assuming heknows how to fire, so he knows
how loud a gun is. Iassume he's been around party poppers. So
I assume he knows how loud partypopper is. I have never heard a
party popper that you would have towear ear protection to use. I don't
know, vern this might be oneof those characters that like is birthed like
pre the scene that they're in,you know what I mean, Like this

(01:17:16):
doesn't feel like a real person.This feels like an actual like baby on
screen. Like I don't believe it, Like I don't believe the most obvious
things, Like sometimes I'm just likethis is unfortunately a plot contrivance in character
form. They didn't need a characterthere at the door Versagall because he could
have just escaped the freezer. That'strue, But I disagree about the character.

(01:17:39):
Like I really believe there are peoplelike like right back is correct,
Like he's blindly following authority and hejust believes what they tell him. Like
they're like this guy's a psycho,and he just he just believes that even
though any reasonable person would know Garynot to trust Gary BC, but the
guy, but he just has allegianceto to power. You know. It's

(01:18:00):
just like people that will believe anythingwhen police kill somebody, and then they'll
just believe what the police say aboutyou know, he's one of those type
of guys. And this again goesto our unfortunate state of where Seagal is
now compared to where he is menand understands talking about not listening to authority,
you know, be your own man, don't listen to them. And
now he's senior boot liquor, Comradeboot Liquor, I think is what they

(01:18:24):
were probably hanging out with. Dictators. Yeah, it's it's very strange,
the Segal dictator thing. Like again, for a guy who had an you
know, had his on Deadly Groundmoment, it's some cognitive dissonance that,
like, I truly don't get it. Well, don't forget on deadly ground.
He blew up a fucking oil tankerwhile also espousing the environmental effort.

(01:18:47):
How else are you going to stopthem? He imploded it so that the
oil wouldn't get into the water.Of course that's familiar, but hope didn't
cause any dash correct. Okay,okay. He did a one hour speech
at the end of the movie thatgot cut out. He's an expert on
Chris. I am sorry, Iretract my statement. Yeah, true,

(01:19:09):
you heard when they said Forrest ishere, that fire as good as it
out. He's an expert. Everyoneknows that Forrest Taft is the you know,
the very best step putting out oilfires. I love it to that
point. I love in How Seagullfilms there's always at least a line where
they where someone has to mention howgood he is. He's the best.

(01:19:30):
I thought you were going to mentionhow great some of the names of the
characters that he portrait, Oh,like Nico Toscani, or Gino or Gino
Polino. Mason Storm is Mason Storm. Oh my god, almost sounds like
a that almost sounds like a character. Almost sounds like a character that one
of the guys from It's Always Sunnyin Philadelphia would make up just to meet

(01:19:50):
a woman, I mean in China. Salesman his name is Louder. You
know it's he's I mean, atthis point, he's been in so many
movies. What are these going tocall him? John Smith? Like,
come on, we gotta give himsomething. Lots of Jackson like his early
movies. He's like Jack John AustinCole Taggard like or Jack Cole and Jack

(01:20:15):
Taggard sound like the same name.As far as I'm concerned. Casey ryback
sounds like a drink you order atthe bar is a great one that like
because they could call him right back, and like it just sounds cool as
fun, all the risky with arye back. I don't know, really
like, I would really like somebodyto do a study of all action movies

(01:20:41):
and find out what percentage the herois named either John or Jack, because
it's probably pretty hi, it's probablypretty high. Back to the fan film
of Diehart Jack later Diehard five.Don't they yell each other's names throughout the
damn film? Jack? John?Jack? John? Yeah, so there's
there's two right there, there's two. I've never seen it. I don't
know what is it? What isthat real wavd? I just admitted it

(01:21:02):
existed. You know it's still afan film. No, it's a fan
film. Sorry, I can.Oh, God, forgive me, John
McClain or John McTiernan, forgive me, John McTiernan, John McTiernan. So
vern you you had mentioned something beforewe started talking, and I wanted to
ask you about it now that we're, you know, sitting having this discussion
about Seagal. You had mentioned that, you know the book, your book

(01:21:23):
had a at a finite end becauseobviously you're not still writing it. It
is how people can go buy it. You had mentioned that people have asked
you to you know, hey,Vern, why haven't you, you know,
brought us up to speed on Seagal'smost recent films. Um, And
I know you had mentioned like,well, you know what what what was
your what is your answer to thosepeople? I guess? And can we

(01:21:45):
expect that you will bring another psygologybook to to the world at some point?
What do you think, Um,I would like to do it someday.
Uh. The answer used to bethat it was up to the publisher,
Titan Books. Um. But thenlast year, when I was doing
my taxes, I realized that mycontract with them had expired and they needed

(01:22:08):
and so they no longer own it, so I actually could update it if
I wanted to. But I,UM, you know, you guys have
talked about how you've watched the mostrecent ones, so you've actually seen some
Seagal movies that I have not seen. Because there was a point around twenty
sixteen when when I started to becomevery disillusioned with the combination of Segal,

(01:22:35):
you know, like hanging around withPutin and kind of spreading the disinformation campaign
that that Putin was promoting during theelection, combined with the fact that he
did two movies in a row thatseemed designed just to make him be able
to sit down in a chair forthe whole movie. We've done a couple
of those. Boy, have Igot some prospective films for you, sir.

(01:22:58):
One of them, the first onewas Sniper Special Ops. And I
think Code of Honor might have beenthe second one. I forget, But
um, is that one of thesequels to Sniper Sniper Special Ops? Or
is that just it's not No,the Sniper the Sniper franchise is innocent.
It is not related to Sniper SpecialOps. But yeah, it seemed like
he he figured out, oh,I can play a sniper, then I
could just film some scenes sitting downin the top of the tower and not

(01:23:21):
have to work with other actors orstand up and um, and it really
bummed me out. But then andthen also I made sure you've probably discussed
that he there were there were rapeallegations that came out. Yeah, were
not only of course horrible, butalso like even on happened during my The
my favorite movie of is making iteven more influent. So you know,

(01:23:47):
because of those things, I really, I really have kind of not been
keeping up with his movies, whichI don't I don't want to say like
that. It's I'm not against anyonewatching them, and I think I do
want to watch them sometime in thefew but I just have, you know,
but I had nagdi feelings about itbecause of that. So therefore,
you know, I've seen parts ofhis movies, but this is actually watching

(01:24:09):
Understiege the other day is actually Ithink the first time in a few years
that I've sat down and watched anentire movie by in so um, thank
you for giving me the reason todo that, because you know, it
just reminds me how much I loveat least those old ones. And I
number two in my mind, separatedfrom during the during the recording of the

(01:24:29):
first couple of podcasts we did,I was thinking to myself, Wow,
we're sure talking a lot about theallegations and the down parts of Sea Gull.
I mean, the unfortunate part is, you know, this is a
podcast about Seagal, but you can'treally talk about him without discussing the elephant
in the room, and especially notin twenty twenty one. No, especially

(01:24:49):
not. I mean, I mean, look, it's unfortunate, but it's
an unfortunate reality of the industry.You have to recognize that the man has
allegedly done some horror things. Umand but us as podcasters and movie film
critics, we have to separate theman from the from the from the films.

(01:25:10):
So I would go as far asto say it's a personal choice.
We don't. I prefer to becauseI don't listen to Michael Jackson anymore.
I prefer to separate the man fromthe from the film because if we don't,
it's I'm afraid it would be allshitting on Seagall films forever because of
what he's done. But I can'tdeny. Yeah, but I can't deny

(01:25:32):
that I love Out for Justice,I love under Stage, I love Mark
for Death. Those are really funaction films that hold up thirty years after
the fact, you know. Um. Yeah, So, I mean I
try to be as fair handed aspossible. Uh, but you know,
we do have to acknowledge the problemsas well as the as well as the

(01:25:55):
accomplishments. Yeah, and I havean easier time talking about what I'm talking
about for Justice or under Siege.You know, it's we're talking about this
old movie. But if I ifI review his new movies as they come
out, that I'm promoting, youknow, encouraging people to possibly give money
to support his career where he's youknow, allegedly getting away with a horrible

(01:26:16):
thing that he's done by hiding outin Russia and filming movies where he sits
down in a chair with a sniperrifle yea or or just a handgun or
just talking to people, because youknow, if you can make money by
sitting down, I mean, whatwas the film people are paying him to
do that? That's on them.What was the film we watched where basically

(01:26:39):
he just sat at the table thewhole fucking time, General Commander, That's
what I thought it was. No, that's beyond the law. Beyond the
law is the one where he isliterally sitting the entire playing. I believe
he's playing like a mob boss orsomething, and he just sits direct Yeah,
yeah, your premonition came true.He's working in that direct action.

(01:27:00):
It seems like he's just wanting.But we do give, We do give.
We have given his later works positiveout positive reviews. I mean,
we talked about Attrition in a verypositive light. I've heard good things about
that. Yeah, actually I kindof got side checked and didn't quite I
would. I don't have any immediateplans for it, but I do think
that someday I would like to towatch all these movies and analyze them,

(01:27:24):
and maybe it would be either todo it on my website or if it
was a book, then I thinkit would be kind of a follow up
book that would be probably called Psychologyto Dark Territory in order to yeah,
looking at but it would be lookingat these movies with the with the new
understanding of, you know, nottrying to make excuses for him as a

(01:27:45):
person, and just analyzing the moviesbased on our understanding of how you know
the dark side of all this andyou should and you should get Richard to
do your forward. Speaking of Richard, Richard would be over the moon.
I mean, you know what happenedwith that script. That script was changed

(01:28:05):
Richard. The story Richard told onour under Siege two episode that we did
on my show is Richard. Theonly line of dialogue, and the entire
movie that Richard had is Ladies andgentlemen, this is your captor speaking.
That's the only piece of dialog.It's the best line in the movie.
Right, But dude, was itmatt Reeves that Matt Reeves was a partner

(01:28:27):
though? Right? It wasn't himthat did matt Reeves rewrite it or someone
else someone else did. Okay,That's why it's this whole like problematic thing
because like Richard's like, oh,I love that It's made my career put
me in a position to where Iam all this stuff. But like,
also it was not our movie inmany ways. Uh, speaking of uh
subtitles for things. Um, whenI was at San Diego Comic Coon back

(01:28:48):
in I was or oh nine,they were asking for people to to uh
nominate subtitles for the second Sharknado film, and my submission was Sharknado two into
Sharkness or Sharknado two shark Territory sharkTerritory. I thought that was too perfect
and they didn't pick it, unfortunately, because they're un original assholes. They

(01:29:11):
don't know. Yeah, but they'renot connoisseurs of fine cuisine like we are.
Fuck them. Uh. One question, Uh, are there any other
like action stars that you would thinkabout like writing a book on in going
over their career. Yeah. Therea lot of people always ask me if
I would do Van Dam and Ifor a long time I said that I

(01:29:33):
wouldn't because I didn't think it wouldwork in this I mean, I still
believe it wouldn't work in the sameway as with Seagal because it's not the
same. Segal is unique, andthat I see him as being kind of
an auteur, and that he putscertain themes in almost every movie that he
ever makes, and that and that'skind of what I was analyzing in the
books. I wouldn't be able tohave the same approach I have tried to

(01:29:56):
do a Van Dam. There's apoint where I decided I'm going to do
a Van Dam book, and thenI just feel like I haven't really cracked
the right approach to do it.But I would like to do that Sunday
because I think he's He's great andinteresting and continues to make good movies.
Yeah, he does. And there'sanother one that I actually don't want to
say because I haven't um I've beenkind of keeping it secret. But there

(01:30:19):
is another kind of less obvious onethat I really would like to write a
book about Michael White. I'm like, no, but I mean he's also
he's one of my first couple oftimes. But it's it's it's somebody else.
I won't say. I wasn't askingyou had mentioned Michael J. White
like three times. I was justgiving you a hard time. The title,

(01:30:40):
can I sug just a title forthe Van Damn book if you ever
get around to writing it, VanDamn Nation? Okay, Okay, I
tried. I tried. I wasthinking of some kind of subtitle of like
the Splits personality, but I don'tthink that was and I look a look
at it. Yeah, I wastrying to do like a duality thing of
like showing the two sides of thembecause there's so many twins. And yeah,

(01:31:05):
you can use the you could basicallyjust use the poster for for um,
what was that called again? DoubleImpact? Double Impact? Yeah?
Yeah, because I get that confusedwith double team. But that's the moment,
Dennis Robin, uh, I hopeif you write the book that you're
easy on street Fighter, because that'sa guilty pleasure of mine. Verne,

(01:31:29):
you mentioned you haven't cracked the VanDamn code. Yet. How when you
were because you mentioned it a littlebit, and I'm very curious as someone
who also writes, um, howwhat brought you to cracking the code with
because you clearly you mentioned this boardthat you had. Was that kind of
the steps that you took to getall that information together? Yeah, I

(01:31:50):
mean I really in my mind itseemed to make sense that it really was
almost like a code, like amathematical Yeah, like a math. I'm
terrible at math, so that's maybethat's why I've made sense in my head.
But it seemed like almost it wasn'tmathematical, like if I if I
analyzed every one of the movies thathe had made, that I would understand
this what I was looking at onthis chart. I think with Van Dam

(01:32:14):
it's like with Segal, it reallymade sense to go chapter one above the
law and the just each each movieis a chapter. But with Van Dam
it's like each movie that he doesin a row is going to be usually
really different from the last one,and you kind of I think maybe I'd
have to bring together related movies,like maybe a chapter that's all of his
movies working with Hong Kong directors oryou know, or starting with all the

(01:32:36):
Cannon, the movies you made withCannon. I don't know. I've tried,
I've tried different approaches that I didn'tfeel like we're working. But someday
and schwartz and egger Rology is justtwo on the nose, right, because
what is there to say about Schwartzeneggerthat hasn't been said? Yeah, he's
a pretty open I mean, Imean, I mean, what is there
to say that hasn't already been said? That's the thing about Seagal that that's

(01:32:57):
the thing about Segalvern that I reallyappreciate about your book. And as someone
who does a podcast that we talkabout movies that don't get enough love,
I love that you go into eachof these streaming DTV whatever you want to
call them movies. I love thatyou go into it and you give each
of those movies a chapter and youdon't just say, well, these are

(01:33:18):
JP whatever. I really appreciate thatabout your book. And that's one of
my favorite things about your book isthat you want to read a chapter about
Dragon Squad, Yeah you're or youknow Black Dawn that's in there or today
you die, Like that's in there, and like who else is talking about
that? Nobody because everybody else goesthat's directive video. Who gives a shit?
Yeah, I mean sorry, that'salways my philosophy. And I think

(01:33:42):
I don't know why this comes tomind, but I grew up reading thank
Ooria magazine, and in the olddays when it was a monthly magazine,
I always love that it would belike, well, this this month,
we have to cover Dolly Dearist orwhatever. Like there wasn't always like a
high profile movie for them, butthey would still have like a set visit
and all this super like detailed coverage. Like to me, that's kind of
like like you said, it's like, I mean, I love writing.

(01:34:05):
I wrote an essay about Terminator twoand Point Break this summer, and those
are I love trying to tackle,Like what do I say that's new about
this movie that everyone has discussed already, Like I love that, But really
my main thing is, like likeyou said, like trying to find something
that that I really love that maybeI feel like not enough people have given
a chance to and kind of expresswhy I'm passionate about it, And that's

(01:34:28):
why I m I actually I didn't. One of the people I actually tried
to do before was I wanted todo Nicolas Cage book at one point,
and um, but like I feellike a lot of the world has actually
come around to my point of viewon Nicolas Cage, so and now I
don't feel like it's as important forme to do that. Although I still
love writing about those I will saythat Nick probably took me one of his,

(01:34:51):
like you know, someone who wasa detractor. I was not a
fan of his. I was dragged, kicking and screaming onto your side of
the argument, which is what NicholasCage is. When he's on, he's
on, and if he knows howto work with someone, or notes someone
knows how to work with him,it's magic. Is I'm assuming, is
that where you're coming from? Yeah? Yeah, or sometimes even if they

(01:35:12):
don't know how, sometimes he justbrings it out anyway, right, And
and sometimes he's in left behind justliterally like a fucking cash a cash grab.
But like, so what you get? You get all that, and
then you get a movie like thisYear's Pig, which is amazing, and
it's a movie about a guy whosetruffle pig gets stolen. Yeah, I

(01:35:33):
love that movie. But I thinkmaybe not in every case, but I
think more so than Bruce Willis.He'll he'll take those roles and he'll still
sometimes give an interesting performance even inlike a terrible, boring Well, he
never like I mean, in theNicholas Cage films I've seen, he never
seems to I mean left behind,notwithstanding because that film is the only film

(01:35:55):
in Nicholas Cage's career that I've everseen him not try. Every film he
seems to bring something to it,Like it may not be the best performance,
but at least he gives a performance, you know, at least you
can tell, Yeah, at leastyou could tell he's I don't I don't
know what that don't know what thatperformance was, but it made no sense

(01:36:15):
in that movie, but it kindof is amazing. You can tell he's
invested in a project, you know, he's like, I'm going to earn
the paycheck and I'm gonna do whatI need to do, and I'm gonna,
you know, at least try.I think he maybe acknowledges in his
head that the movie he does maynot be very good, but he's not
going to stop. It's not goingto stop him from giving it what he

(01:36:35):
can to salvage it. Like Isaid, Left Behind being the exception,
because I mean, if you watchthat movie about the Superman movie that never
got made, and you see thosebehind the scenes footage, you can tell
he's genuinely excited to play Superman.And yeah, I mean he's a huge
Superman fan. But whatever. Thereare actors who, given that opportunity,

(01:36:57):
would not have given any shits andcould careless. But yet you can tell,
like you guys have said, heinvests himself into the performances in a
way that other actors don't. Andyou know what, I like, Steven
Seagal figured out a way in LeftBehind to make a paycheck in a movie
and not have to get up.I would read a book about Nicholas Cage
actually, because I just find himthat interesting of a person in general.

(01:37:19):
I mean not just you know,the films, but him as a person.
Because that's the thing about Seagal.Then, like we are, we
gravitates towards Seagal in a way too, because he's just kind of like an
interesting human being. Cage just happensto be an actor. The Cage is
easier to defend. Well, yeah, I don't know. I think maybe

(01:37:41):
because of the terrible things that havebeen learned about and maybe it wouldn't happen,
but I've always thought about it.I would never write a biography of
them because I don't feel qualified todo that, but it would be a
super interesting read if someone really dida real biography of his life. Yeah,
he strikes me as like very TommyWizo is in a way like Tommy
Wizou is very cagy. When someone'slike where are you from, Like he's

(01:38:04):
like, like you know, hejust kind of shrugs and goes, hey,
everybody hilarious and like that's Segal,like you were talking about it burn
where he's like the Russia and NativeAmerican like no, what No, Like
it's like self reinvention is a thingthat seems like is very important to Segal
because I think at one point inhis career, is it The Glimmerman where

(01:38:26):
he's like, I don't want tokill anyone on screen for a while.
I think that was the one becausehe in that film he's playing a very
a Buddhist. Yeah. Yeah,and he's got Keenan Affrey Waynes as a
sidekick, which is like what Imean, Steven Seagal is very I will
say in those early movies. Atleast, he's very true to himself.
Maybe too fauld Yeah, I meanStevens Got Home. Yeah, he had

(01:38:51):
a fighting style that was new.He had a fashion that was nobody else
followed. Yeah, you still playedguitar also, and he had a ponytail
that could not be beat. Imean, I mean, you know he
uh, he was a trend setterfor trends that he still follows. But
yeah, you can't. Did notcatch off nobody's wearing neighbru in twenty one.

(01:39:15):
But I mean, I like,I like weirdos. I think,
I think, I mean, Iguess you mentioned before we have the same
issue with Michael Jackson, but uh, Michael Jackson was you know, my
favorite growing up and I like mywhole life really and he and you know,
if we set aside what what whatpeople allegedly yeah what has been alleged,

(01:39:42):
just like everything about him was sounique and bizarre, and people always
held that against him, but tome, that was also what was cool
about him, and or or ina more positive light, we can say
Prince was very much an individual andum, I just I just really yeah,
so I really gravitate to people likethat and I'm not. I'm I'm
definitely not trying to argue that Segalis on the level of Prince or anything,

(01:40:05):
but I like iconic weirdos. Yeah, I'm with you because well,
I think I gravitate towards weirdos myself, because well, I am a weirdo,
you know, I always well becauseseriously though, I've always felt very
much an outlier, an outcast,you know, especially during my high school
years, I felt very much outof it. So you kind of want

(01:40:27):
to defend the people who don't feellike they're being defended. And also there
these are people who they they're weirdos, and then they made it cool like
within their world. You're like,you know, Prince is wearing a bizarre
thing, but he steps on thestage and he's like the coolest motherfucker you've
ever seen in your life. Ohhell yeah. And uh, you know,
to a certain extent, when Segalwas at his height and people really

(01:40:48):
liked him, that was what itwas too, was like this dude at
the Ponytown the weird shirts, andyou know, like they're like that guy
is so cool. Like that waskind of the the aura that he created.
And I would love to live ina universe, like an alternate reality
where Seagal is the one who becameimmensely successful in the nineties and like his
career, like imagine if Segal waslike Tom Cruise in a way, right,

(01:41:12):
like he's just kind of always beenaround doing things and popping up and
kind of having peaks and valleys.Because Seagal has never like it's been this
it's like, I mean, it'sunfortunate, Like it's it's sad, and
it's kind of sad in a way, you know, again who he is.
Notwithstanding, you wouldn't want this tohappen to anyone in their career if
they never if they had this tasteof immense success and then it kind of

(01:41:35):
just fizzled out. But there's auniverse where he was the most successful guy
and he's still doing things now,and that I wonder what that would be
like. Yeah, it definitely seemslike his personality was a barrier to that
because you know, but yeah,but but then at the same and you

(01:41:56):
know, that's a good thing.If our world is punishing people for being
bricks. Yeah, I'm in supportof that, even that. I love
his movies, but he's also veryunusual in that he he started at the
top like he was. He wasChaelovitz, I Kedo teacher and he and
then Michael Evits gave him a screentest and his first movie is Above the
Law where he's the main character andit has elements based on his life or

(01:42:17):
things that he claimed about his life, and um, but some of it
definitely is verified the real things abouthis life. And that was his first
you know, he had done alittle bit of behind the scenes, but
his first acting role is Steven Seagalis you know, and so they made
a big deal that he was inthat movie. It's almost unheard of how

(01:42:38):
his career has had went. Yeah, I agree, I don't. I
don't know anyone to compare that too. I mean none, none of his
contemporaries had that. None of hiscontemporaries were like thrust into that. I
mean Schwarzenegger, Stallone bandy, Imean, dam wasn't breaking. Yeah,
Schwarzenegger. Schwartzenegger did like the Herculesfilms. Uh, stallone did. Uh

(01:42:59):
that's the Talian Stallion, which wascalled something else I forgot um, but
yeah, party a Kidian Kyle's orsomething something or something like that. But
um, yeah, even they startedout kind of more bit parts. But
Segal out of the Gate got abovethe law and I'm like he got at
least he didn't have to work ashard for it. Yeah, but he

(01:43:20):
but he didn't. But but Igive him credit. He didn't half ascid
in his first role. He's like, I'm I'm gonna take this. I'm
gonna take this, uh, thisgift I've been given and I'm gonna show
them what I got and I'm gonnafight. He was a stunt coordinator before
all this. Yeah, and youknow, but only on like two movies

(01:43:41):
there. Yeah, right, yeah, he broke supposed Yeah that's wasn't that
from for Never Say Never Again orsomething? Yeah? And then he did
something on the Challenge, right,That's that's where they credit him as Steves
Ago, friends with him, friendswith Stephen, call him. He probably
wouldn't like to be called Steve,Stevie, Steve Yo, Stefan and I

(01:44:09):
mean burned to your point, thisguy being you know, a unique individual.
Please tell me the Schwarzenegger TV showwhere he is a law man,
you know, like stuff like that, like it just or you know,
please tell me about I guess BruceBruce Willis is not an example we can
use for a music career Welcome BackBruno, But I have that album by
that guy, so do I.Yeah, the three fans of Welcome Meg

(01:44:31):
Bruno. Have you seen the movie? I have it on I have it
on VHS. Movie. Yeah,Return to Bruno is like it was a
It was like an HBO special.It's a mockumentary about his great career and
they interview a munch and the interviewa bunch of celebrities to talk about Bruno
and how prolific he was as asongwriter. And the one I remember most

(01:44:53):
was like Michael J. Fox.Wow, I have not seen that,
but I mean like Schwarzenegger's musical career, stuff like that. Like Seagal is
is the consummate weirdo guy, likeconsummate, just like he is. He
if again, you know, likeyou said Verne, As we come to
a close here, we have toagain make a statement about Steven Seagal is

(01:45:15):
a bad guy because he allegedly hasdone a lot of bad things and he
should be punished. But he's aweirdo and he's never been not true to
it. He's always true to himselfand can't hold that against him, for
good or for bad, because himbeing himself meant that he didn't get all
these roles that he could have gottenbecause, like you said, n his
personality got in the way of hissuccess, and he's being true to himself

(01:45:35):
and he's not playing ball with people. So yeah, at least he never
did a movie where he's like maybesitting some kids and and it's at least
comedy. At least he never dida film where his mom comes to visit
and you know, she finds hisgun. I mean, there's a universe
somewhere where Steven Seagal and Simbad arethe leads of Jingle over the Way and

(01:45:59):
Ladies and Gentleman. I would payto see that movie, my god,
I would do. I mean,Jingle All the Way is great, but
to your point, and like Iguess it's probably a good thing. We
never got the Steven Seagal crisis offaith where he's cast in a children's company,
like or Steven Seagal Is Pregnant filmby Larry I wasn't trying to this,

(01:46:20):
uh Schwitzenegger. I was thinking moreof like The Tooth Fairy and yeah,
yeah, and the Pacifier and stufflike that. But yeah, another
die Hard movie, a literal dieHard movie, Skyscraper, Diehard, I
think on a building. I thinkover the years as being known as the
Seagal guy. Everyone has to docertain things that everyone has to talk to

(01:46:42):
me about, like the story abouthim getting choked out and shooting his pants
and stuff like that. I don't, I won't go into that. If
you you'll, I think you're talkingthe Gracie thing, right, like Sammy
the Bulkano or something like that.Judo Geane that's the one. Okay,
now I know, I know,but that would be amazing. Stephen Sekel

(01:47:05):
getting into a fight with Sammy theBull Gravato. We we know how that
was some some mob guy on YouTubewas telling a story about Stephen Sikl shooting
his pants and I thought it wasokay, I could be wrong, Yeah
I could. He did. Therewas a thing with mobsters. And then
there's also a story about him,uh showing somebody crying reading a script and

(01:47:25):
showing him and the script and thenhe wrote the script. And there's there's
a certain story like negative stories abouthim that become legendary that everyone has to
go, oh, like, tellme about it as if I haven't heard
it before. But one of themis that one of one of those facts
is that when he hosted Saturday NightLive, like every everybody said that he
was the worst. Everyone all theSaturday Night Live people say he was the
very worst, and huh So anyway, that's that may explain why he didn't

(01:47:51):
follow the switch Figger. I toldthis doing some comedies. I mentioned the
sturd life thing in uh in oneof the podcasts where he had pitched a
sketch where he plays a therapist inVictoria. Jackson plays a rape victim or
a sexual assault victim, and allthrough the sketch, Steven Seagal's character tries
to hit on her, and apparentlyhe thought that was funny. So apparently

(01:48:13):
he was I don't think it wouldhave worked. You have you had you
heard that? Have you heard thatstory though? Where? Yeah? I
forget where that came from, butbut yeah, he's like never invited back
again. I know there's a SaturdayNight Live book that mentioned I think David
Spade says something, and I knowBob Odenkirk has told stories about it and
stuff, so yeah, yeah,I mean, I mean, the story

(01:48:34):
is it? Tom Sagura also hasa is he the one who tells a
bunch of Ciagal. Everybody's got likea Seagal story. I mean even Richard
has his Seagal story, but Imean John Zamo's Siagal story. Yeah,
yeah, where he basically like chokeshim out on the set of Executive Decision
or something. And Tom Mandold actuallyrecently came out it's a good one involving

(01:48:59):
him jumping off about getting tricked intojumping off about them. There's a lot
of them. Yeah, everybody.It seems like everybody has a run in
with him, or has an opinionon him, or forgets that he still
exists in the in the world.I don't know. I mean, you
go ask ten people if they knowwhere Steven Seagal is, and probably nine

(01:49:21):
of them would say I thought hewas dead. So it's strange, it's
unfortunate. But yeah, so whyhe's gotten in his own way a lot
we may have already answered this question. So why do you think that he
has the appeal for people like us, for a small cult following, because
he's the weirdo. I think also, just it's like everything we've been talking

(01:49:41):
about is makes him stand out asa unique His movies are unique, you
know, the way the way thathe just passed through everybody is unique.
The fact that he uses iq doand so it's a very blunt, like
fast style that's different from Van Dame'sflying kicks and stuff, which I'm not
saying one is better words on theother, but it's it really stands out

(01:50:02):
as being a different sort of thing. Like in understands the way that he's
like waving the knives around is soweird, and and then just his whole
persona of being a weirdo like we'retalking about, and just um, it
just creates a very unique thing.So when he's really firing on all cylinders
with a great director like we havehere and like a good script, and

(01:50:23):
then it just becomes you know,obviously, they just they just stand out
among those movies that we love.I will agree with you his his fighting
style is definitely fascinating to watch.Whenever he gets in his whenever he gets
into his groove and does what hedoes best in his fighting style, it's
fascinating to watch. And it's almostlike choreography like ballet and dancing. Not

(01:50:44):
to be cliche about it, buthe definitely has a technique to it that's
just beautiful to watch, and andand yet and and when you have him
in something like Attrition, he's evenbetter. I mean that movie plays to
his strengths. I really think heshould be working like in like in Asian
cinema, because like, if heis as good at I Kedo as we

(01:51:05):
know he is, he could belike really raking in the money in Asian
cinema, just playing like the grizzledOld Teacher or X something or other.
Like It's I've always found it strangethat like, yeah, he's doing like
streaming stuff, but it's like allthese like very saney things like Asian cinema
with his background would be something forhim that I would assume would probably be

(01:51:28):
worth his time. I think adirector like John Wu would really um makes
Steven Seagal something to do. Imean he would really I think probably highlights
Steven seagal strengths um as well.Yeah have you there of you seen Belly
of the Beast yet not yet?Okay, so you'll come to that eventually.
That's uh, that's that's his onlylike real Hong Kong kind of movie

(01:51:53):
because it's Chin Su tongue the greatchoreographer and director. And it's right,
and it's very it's it's done likekind of I believe after Cratching Tiger,
Hidden Dragon and stuff, and ithas some other there's a part where he
fights a guy who's doing like wirefood but he's just standing there and doing
his I can tell on him,and it's like, it's a cool movie
because it's it's a combination of likehaving some really well done stuff and just

(01:52:15):
being really crazy. And I can'twait to get to that. Yeah,
it's one of maybe my favorite ofhis state video, definitely one of his
most interesting straight to video. Lensso Verd, I want to give you
the final say on under Siege,but I will ask you your your final
thought on under Siege and the moviethat you anticipate we will not like at

(01:52:38):
like the like the least of theones that you watched. Which one do
you think is probably going to bethe hardest for us to stomach? Did
you already see Sniper Special Apps?No, okay, I'm gonna say that
one. And Against the Dark,which you want, oh, the vampire
film, vampire movie. You wantit to be good because it's Sigal versus

(01:52:58):
vampires. But he's just you'll you'lldiscover why it's not doesn't live up to
that, but I guess yeah,those two those are my least favorite but
I've seen. And then my finalthought on under Siege is that there's a
part where he's climbing down a giantchain and I like to look at that
and pretend that he's actually really small, like a like a brower. He's

(01:53:19):
a little a borrower or one ofthe littles. Oh god, thank you
for mentioning the show. Oh mygod, just the non secredar of the
fucking year. Honey. I'd justlike to imagine that he's really small.
Honey. I shrunk, Honey,I shrunk the ciagal. I would watch
that movie is Aunt Man with Rickmoranis man. Rick moranis is the villain

(01:53:45):
in this movie. Oh that's agood That would be a good choice to
come out of retirement for Underseach student. Yeah, wow, I would watch
that movie. Man. Huh.Well, you know what, if we
ever get underseage three, which weit's got to be, so let's write
the script and make it and makeit tell them and bake a studio note.

(01:54:09):
Rick moranis or nothing that's fair soVerne, Um, thank you for
joining us so much. Again,your your psychology book is kind of what
put me down this path, becauseagain it was came very highly suggested from
a friend of ours, the friendthat put Trevor and I in contact,
our friend Mike White of the ProjectionBooth podcast. UM, but thank you

(01:54:31):
so much for joining us, Thankyou so much for writing psychology from the
bottom of our hearts. And ifpeople want to find you and your extensive
works, where can they go tofind you? If you want them to
find you. Yeah, I'm atoutlaw Verne dot com and I post for
movie reviews a week, pretty muchspecializing in action, but I do a

(01:54:55):
lot of horror and just everything elseI get into different phase is right now
I'm doing Summer of nineteen ninety onemovies, which I'm almost done with.
And I'm asto on Twitter and letterboxedPatreon. UM, and and thanks a
lot for having having me. Itwas it was fun and thank you.
I would like to apologize for callingTrevor Terry earlier and confusing everyone. It's

(01:55:17):
okay, I didn't catch it,but now when I when I listened to
and edit. I'm gonna listen.I caught it, and I caught it
and I let it go. I'mlike, am I going to tell the
guests? What the hell did youjust call me? Did you call me
Terry? Because we want to havehim back, so I don't want to
alienate. But yes, it wasthank you very much. It was fun

(01:55:42):
and I would be happy to comeback to time. Thank you so much.
Like like I said, this isfor me whenever I work on a
podcast, and Trevor knows this,like there are people that I want to
have on that are like the mountrushmore of people for the show. You
are next to Segal in this Ohno, but yes, since the beginning
you work one could have like onehead separating us buffer head, Yeah,

(01:56:09):
William Sadler, William Sadler's head.Accept that, No, Keith David's head
because like you mentioned, he's thebest psychkick that would like to be next.
Should we give our our our recommendponytail up a ponytail? Oh yeah,
no pony tailor no ponytail. Iguess well we're all three in agreement,
right, Yeah, that's great.It's it's a great movie. Okay,

(01:56:30):
I don't know if it's his bestmovie, but for a lot of
people, it's probably the only Skallmovie they've seen. Yeah, it's probably
his most accessible movie. That orMy Giant, Yeah, or or his
stellar turn in Fire down Below wherehe kills Chris Christofferson or I know,

(01:56:51):
I guess he locks him up,but he kills Randy Travis by shooting him
in the neck. So there snow I gotta see this movie. Yeah,
that's fucking Randy Travis. A goodone. Yeah, it's a good
one, Trevor. Where can peoplefind you? People can find me at
Twitter at bad Vertigo. You canfind me on Instagram at mad Vertigo,
and you can find me a monthlyonce a month on the Culture Cast with

(01:57:15):
my friend here Chris Stash you.And that's about it, because really I
got nothing else to go on onAnd as for me, stas dot com
is where you can go to findmy stuff. That's my link tree.
All the links to all the thingsthat I work on go there. So
that's where you can go if youhave an interest in going there. And
on sigal dot com is where youcan find this show. We are also
on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook,if you want to go there, or

(01:57:38):
you just go to on sigal andlisten to the show. It's not that
we don't interact on social media,but like I mean, we're still posting
the show, so the show's notgoing anywhere. Be tuned for our next
episode. We will be discussing theSeagal film cartel Cartel's cartels with an ass.
I wish it was a z thatwould be like early two thousands.

(01:58:02):
It does have George Saint Pierre init, so symbol has a minor role
is what Wikipedia says. But hehas a centerpiece on the posters, so
that doesn't mean anything that Yep,that's true. Who knows. But yeah,
and again Vern, thank you somuch for joining us Rush

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