December 25, 2023 • 23 mins
For Devang’s first Open Era Gold selection, let’s go back to beautiful Mason, Ohio for one of the best matches of the year. Following Carlos Alcaraz’s incredible triumph at Wimbledon, the Tennis world was ready to move on from stars of the past. But as he so often does, Novak Djokovic made time stand still on the court. On this week’s show, Simon and Devang relive an epic match between the top two men’s players of 2023.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:13):
Hello, and welcome to the OpenEra podcast. My name is Diving this
side. I'm joined as always bymister Simon Bushell for another edition of Open
Era Gold Bush. How are youdoing. I'm doing very well, thank
you. In addition to my previouschock about spanned out La, I also
thought about gold the chocolate box ofbiscuits. Do you know that one?
(00:35):
Are you aware of that? I'mnot? Is it like shortbread? What's
the type of biscuit it is?It's like an assortment of biscuits that you
would get around Christmas time in theUK, where you'd be given a box
of assorted biscuits, but the verybest, hence the gold labeling. That's
dangerous around me this time of yearand at all times. But our biscuit
fiend, I feel like, what'sthe slightly older version of the cookie monster?
(01:00):
Biscuit fiend? That's me? SoI think I'd like those. Are
you a biscuit man? Then?I never knew this about you? I
am? I mean I think IActually I've always liked cookies. I'll be
honest here, but biscuits have beencoming around to them lately. It's the
more refined version, right, isthere actually a difference. This is one
thing that I've always wondered. Inever knew what the what is considered a
(01:23):
cookie these days. Not to gettoo deep into biscuit talk, but like,
biscuits are also kind of bad.It's not like they're better for you,
you know, like the shortbread stufflike that that's that packs a punch?
Is this kind of like the inanebollocks that people hate about podcasts?
Just to start an opening segment,yeah, probably a full three minutes about
biscuits, but this time of year, it's fair. I was gonna say
(01:45):
Ferrero rochets, like those chocolate's wrappedin the gold foil, also reminded by
open air gold. So keep yoursuggestions coming in what does open air gold
remind you of? So we've donetwo bushel picks, it's time for the
Desi rain to begin. Simon,do you have any idea where I'm going
(02:06):
with my first pick? A littlebit of an idea. Yeah, if
I was to shut my eyes,I think I properly could have guessed the
direction that you were going in.Indeed, I probably won't surprise you when
I say that the match I chosefeatured Carlos Alkaraz and Novak Djokovic. But
I might surprise you that it's notsomething they did out of Slam, namely
Wimbledon. But for my first pick, let's return to Cincinnati. The final
(02:32):
on Sunday, August twentieth. Simona three set epic, which I think
you can say sometimes about Cincinnati,and this tournament has some blemishes, it's
not perfect. But when I heardthey wanted to move it, Simon and
Mayde me love it more. AndI think this match for me encapstulated a
(02:53):
lot of what twenty twenty three wasall about, because after Wimbledon it felt
like Carlos Aakaraz has taken over thetour. And though Novak Djokovic was not
done by any means, something hadhappened at Wimbledon. And yet, like
he's done so many times, NovakDjokovic said not yet, he certainly did.
(03:15):
Is your love affair with Cincinnati inany relation to the A baby?
I mean, aw kaginal love thatsinister child looking at you at all times
asking for donations. I think it'sit's part of my love. It's also
that it's in Mason, Ohio.I think it's one of the more random
things for tennis and what tennis isbecoming and rapidly changing into with this idea
(03:38):
of jetting off to any any placethey can go that's gonna pay him enough
money. I do like that,Mason Ohio. It's like, yeah,
we're gonna keep doing this. Notto say there's not money involved when it's
operated by a bank, but it'sjust Mason talking about the match that you're
I'll leave that aside. Perhaps I'venever been to Mason. Are you saying
(04:00):
that's not a key slogan they shouldtake. It's just Mace, take the
Oestrava route and write that at theback of the court. It's just Mason.
People come on the in like acursive. I think that's really good.
Yes, I think it's great.The first line of THEATP tour dot
com right up for this final.No fact, Djokovic won one of the
(04:21):
best matches in recent memory on Sunday. Now, that is high praise.
That is quite astonishing, and Ido you don't think so? I am
very curious to know your reasoning andrationale behind why you chose this match.
I think it is okay in fitsand starts, I don't quite understand the
(04:44):
universal love of this match, becauseperhaps we'll come on to it during the
course of this podcast. But thiswas two bodies very much aching, and
the level of tennis at times wasoutstanding, and the level of tennis at
other times looked I very much liketwo dudes just pushing an injured To me,
well, I think that's fair.I think the reason, and I
(05:05):
mean, you can make the sameargument about the Wimbledon final, couldn't you,
in terms of how good was that? I think I chose Cincinnati because
for me, it is it wasthe perfect distillation of Novak Djokovic, i'd
say, in the sense that hehad a hat on at times, he
also looked severely injured at times.He also looked super human at times.
(05:28):
He also looked annoyed at hell attimes. It was everything that is Novak
Djokovic. And to talk about someonewho ended up basically walking away with another
bag of titles, I think it'sinteresting to look at him at this particular
juncture of the season because from hereon in, I think it was a
reassertment of his claim to whatever mantleyou want to call it, aka the
(05:50):
best player currently playing. So Ithink it was an important moment because no
matter if Carlo Sakras wasn't one hundredpercent think the week before in Toronto,
at that tournament, that's all anyonetalked about. And it's also because Novak
wasn't there. But I think theconversation around the grounds is all about Okaraz
and how is his tour now,and that vibe permeated throughout the tournament there.
(06:15):
So I thought it was interesting thatin Cincinnati, while he had an
opportunity to do it again against Novak, he couldn't. And not to say
that Boris Becker and his silk areright, but there's still another step or
two for Charlie, and I thinkthat was important. Yeah, I agree
with you. I think there's alot in this match that's interesting to unpack,
not just the way that I thinkAkaraz attempted to deal with some of
(06:38):
the I don't think gamesmanship tactics istoo strong, but certainly some old man
tennis seek Novak back to and soold man stuff out there. Yeah.
Absolutely, Yeah, And I thinkthe flip side of that as well,
as it's pretty obvious that Okaraz isnot doing great by the middle of the
third set, I think he sayson court at the end that he's got
(06:58):
some severe cramps in his right handas well, and I think that's testament
to some of the rallies that wesee in the third set as well.
But it's a pretty a pretty fascinatingmatchup just from a from not only a
tactical perspective, but just from thepsychology of two dudes who know each other
fairly well. At this point,dev big time, and I think the
heat was another thing that I believe. It was like thirty two degrees celsius,
(07:21):
like ninety fahrenheit on the court,and that's probably not factoring in the
sun beating down on you, sothe humidity also being a problem, but
the conditions factoring in big time.I think you also saw them not playing
at their best at the same timefor Chunks, which has also been somewhat
familiar in their matchup or their rivalryso far. I think the ATP Finals
(07:45):
in twenty twenty three a great exampleof that, where I maybe you could
say almost didn't play badly, butI think Novak was just at the level
above. For me, this matchwas underlined by the fact that it was
peaks and valleys for both and eventhe end in which Alcaraz is finding himself
survived. I thought that was fascinating. I think there was times in the
(08:07):
second set where I thought no backwas cook cooked. In the first set,
I mean just the pure hitting earlyon in between the shadows, it
made sense that they were completely deadby the end. First off, I'm
incredibly impressed that you knew the temperaturein fahrenheit. I still to this day
have no concept what those numbers mean. Is ninety a lot? I think
(08:28):
it is? Right? Yeah,well that's why because I kept getting mad
when I saw maps in the USAwith huge numbers on it and the map
in like dark red, and I'mlike, what's going on down there?
But I had to learn. Butyeah, ninety is pretty hot. I
think you're seeing one twenty pretty regularlyin some American states these days, which
(08:48):
is terrifying. I always find itinteresting when I'm watching the NFL around Christmas
time and someone's like, it's liketwelve degrees it's going to be one of
the coldest days ever in Kansas City. I'm thinking to myself, it sounds
nice. It doesn't at all.It's pretty great. Yeah. Also,
also, America get with the times, I shouldn't yell at you. This
(09:09):
is South America. So the CincinnatiFinal, the Cincinnati Final, first set,
bush Novak jumps out to a lead, leading for two, looking fine,
like, looking like he can handleanything Okarez has to dish it him.
Like we said, this was atough day to play tennis, and
(09:31):
like throughout this tournament I mentioned Toronto, Carlos lost to Tommy Paul there.
He got revenge against Paul in thethird round here. But he played a
lot of tennis. But he playedevery match he played. It was a
three center. I wonder why hewas dead by the end. Yeah,
I think he was on call forabout ten hours well as he by the
end of this championship. Was itten hours to get to the final?
(09:52):
Which is a lot of time whenit's only the space of a single week.
I thought this first set was apretty good level overall, Like I'm
not shitting on this first set atall, Like, I think it's really
kind of fascinating from a tactical perspective. And another point on this one,
if you are a fan of long, growling, backhand to backhand rallies cross
(10:15):
court, then this was box officeviewing for you. Debank. That's what
we've got a lot of in thisfirst set. The thing arguably Simon has
the most you could say just repetitivemicro movements on the backhand side. I
love it, love it so much. I yeah, And I think when
(10:35):
Alcoraz makes to come back and Novakkind of goes away, and with the
beginning of the second set, itfeels like this could be relatively quick or
as quick as it could be forboth these guys who like to take their
time. But I think things geta bit weird towards the end of the
second set, Bush matches on Alcoraz'sracket and then it no longer is I
(10:58):
don't think this is any about likebig moments getting to him, because I
mean, once you do it atWimbledon, what's bigger than that. But
I'm curious what you think about Novakpoking and prodding around Alkaraz's game and finding
in roads or are you more onthe side of Alkhoriz's level falling off in
the second set, because there isa point there around when he gets that
(11:22):
break back in the second set whereit kind of flips. Yeah. I
think this is a fascinating question ofwhether or not how much stock do you
put in the micro adjustments Novak Djokovic, the master of poking and prodding,
and how much of this is atwenty year old thinking that he's over the
line against a guy that's suffering inthe heat and just sort of begins to
(11:45):
believe his own kool aid that he'sunbeatable on court and really does not do
enough to get across the line andkill off the greatest defensive player of all
time. I think there's probably Ithink it's probably more the latter than the
former. Honestly, I don't thinkDjokovic does anything particularly you know, fantastic
in that second set to come back. I think Corlis Akers will be kicking
(12:09):
himself. And I'm sure he wasquite the conclusion of this match, but
by goodness, this one should havebeen wrapped up and done because you know,
we kind of bury this a littlebit. But he does really well
to bring that break back in thefirst set and close out and really you
know, emphatic fashion. I thoughthe played a really good set of tennis
despite not starting well, and heplays a continuation about than the second set,
(12:31):
and then he just kind of,yeah, I think he just think
he just phones it in a littleright, which we're all guilty of in
any spot. Yeah, And Ithink the idea of expecting no back to
go away it's naive and it's alsobeen insane, like it's it's not gonna
happen no matter the situation or ninetynine point nine percent of the time.
(12:52):
It just doesn't feel like that's somethinghe will do, at least definitely not
anymore. And he didn't. Hejust stick around long enough to find to
a crack and opening and get thebreak back and then get into a tie
break in which I mean to say, which you can about obac like there's
a lot of things he can say. It's ridiculous a lot of the things
he does, but the record oftiebreaks is insane. And I also like
(13:15):
that he gets down a match pointas well in this tiebreak before reverting to
what he can do pretty pretty relentlesslywell, and that stick and rallies and
grind his opponent down into dust,even someone with an all court game like
Alcaiz. That being said, SimonI mentioned he grinded people down into dust.
Like the forehand and backhand rhythms thatNovak can generate, Like I know
(13:39):
he's He's been widely praised, butare his like regular shots underrated somehow,
Like, are we underrating that theforehand and back end are as pristine as
they are at points in this match. I think it's largely your definition of
what a clean bull striker is,because you know, I'm on record on
this podcast of saying that I thinkon ex center is one of the best
(14:00):
ball strikers ever in the history oftennants, just of how clean he strikes
a tennis ball. But Nobouk Drakovicis himself phenomenal in terms of his groundstrokes
and his ability to consistently find depthover and over and over again, metronomic
in terms of his ability to findspots over and over and I think it's
on for display in this tiebreaker andreally his entire career in tiebreakers as well.
(14:24):
Yeah, I don't think it's anysurprise to say that I think he's
the greatest tiebreak player of all time. That's not really a particularly surprising statement.
But I think it's if you arewanting a case study of why he
is so good in tie breaks,this is a really good example of why
he is. Not to give Nickcurious and he added air time, But
(14:50):
let's do it now, Simon.I don't know if he saw his comments
about how petz Abras who get murkedquote unquote, if he played into his
game he was saying Layton Hewitt murderedhim, and imagine if Layton could do
that, what Novak would do.But if you get set it up somehow,
and they did that weird Macenroe AIthing on ESPN, so it seems
(15:11):
doable. Can we not set upSampress for his Djokovic in a tie break
with the same technologies them using thesame brackets, get on it? AI
companies actually do something useful with anyof this type instead of destroying the world.
Give us this weird hypothetical that twotennis sick goes want. But I'd
(15:33):
love to see it because I alsoI mean the Novak adalyzing Pete thing and
and Sampras having one of the oneof the most ridiculous serves against a cavalcade
of great returners. It'd be abox office viewing. That's the tiebreak.
Novak wins it. He wins allthe tiebreaks, but we get to the
third set, And this is probablywhy I picked this match Simon as my
(15:54):
men's pick match of the year OpenAir Gold the third that was nuts.
And I think this is also whythis match lives so large in my head,
is because the end of this matchwas insane. Sidon because at five
three Novak leading. I remember,I'm texting you on WhatsApp getting reader to
do the show. We're lamenting.Let's be honest here, we're lamenting that
(16:18):
Novak is beaten Carlos somehow. Andyet four championships later and some incredible shot
making as Novak ser finally dipped abit, produced some hilarious stuff, some
great stuff like that was that wascapital T tennis. I guess let's start
with a question. Did you buyfor one moment that Djokovic was injured?
(16:44):
Are you still at this point?I mean, I think I'm a mark.
I'm a mark. I believe thathe needed whenever potions were sent over
his camp. It was hot.Though, Listen, it's hot, and
he's my age, so now Iearned a bit older. Yeah, I
get it, man, and he'splaying kids now it's so strange. But
I'm like, you know, what, screw with him? Kids go back.
(17:07):
I will say that I have gonepast the I'm through the looking Glass
at this point, whenever he's injuredthat I just don't believe him anymore.
He's been it's been boy who criedWolf just too many times at this point,
and I've seen him win from thesepositions too many times that I just
don't really buy it at this moment. The other thing is I don't believe
any of these people most of thetime. Because the bathroom breaks and they're
(17:30):
taken eighty minutes after losing his set. You know it's true. Okay,
So the I think the back endof this match is fantastic. It's great
drama. It's gripping. There's noother word really to describe the sequence of
events that happened to for Alcaraz readyto hang in this match the way that
he does, including that just ridiculousshot that he's down match point where he
(17:55):
has no business staying in it.I think my issue at the back end
of this is that Carlos Akros getsso so conservative, like ridiculously, and
I know the hand injury probably hassomething to do with it, but they
are not. It's keer starmer witha chance at winning an election. He
does a fantastic analogy, but yes, it's carlus Akro isn't. If there's
(18:19):
one thing that you would describe ofhim, he's not He's not a passive
player. He's not someone that justwaits for moments. He forces issues and
it looks strange when he's doing it. M M right, it looks very
weird. It looks like he doesn'the's not interested sometimes when he's just in
these long, grueling like baseline rallieswhere no one's really grueling is not even
(18:40):
the right word, right, Gruelingwould imply that this is you know,
epic tight length being you know,kept by both men and they're really picking
a part of each other when they'rekind of just it's not they're not rolling
the ball back into court, butthey are not going at one hundred percent
here at all. It's two dudeswho are being very cautious, who are
moving the ball around the court.And for me, it didn't make the
(19:03):
greatest of tennis, even though itproduced I think some really fantastic moments as
well. I think that's fair.And once again, like this, the
narrative beast uh reared its head,and I think that's why it meant.
It meant a lot. Watching thisas a fan and like looking at some
of the other big matches this year, like the Sinner Alcaraz semifinal in Miami,
(19:30):
or I think it trying to thinkof like what other maybe even wanted
a Medvedev uh spair beat downs likenon Slam edition. I think this will
this had the biggest impact on thetour, and I think that that says
something about it because of how oversizedthe Slams are in importance for tennis,
(19:55):
that this broke through in a waythat it rarely does on the men's side
in this current jucture of time.Yeah. Absolutely, I think there is
a part of this where people werelooking at to see whether the aura of
al Choraz following that victory at Wimwoodenactually held up in Cincinnati, another big
final with the eyes on another opportunityto cement himself as the world number one
(20:22):
and really take control of the tour. And I think the narrative in general
that he was the best player inthe world and that the torch had been
passed unfortually tennis doesn't really work likethat a lot of the times, and
it certainly didn't. It certainly didnot take place on this day as well.
It did not, Novak taking thethird set in a tiebreaker. We
(20:48):
had a missed Novak overhead the JocoSlam late year as well, which is
the Joco smash that we all loved, and it set the stage really for
a pretty pretty big scene at theUS Open and what we were expecting to
see there. Of course, DanielMevedev spoiled that rematch attempt and Novak went
(21:10):
on to win, beating Daniel tocap a pretty monster year for a monster
player. Twenty twenty three for NovakDjokovic three slams, the one he did
not win is because of Carlos Alkaraz. Simon any final thoughts on this rivalry,
as we zoom in and then zoomout on al Karaz Djokovic, I
think actually Cincinnati will be a fascinatingexample to study at the conclusion of Novak
(21:37):
Djokovic's career because you see this situationwhere Alkaraz beats him in a Wimwodham final
and then loses in the Cincinnati final. Whether or not is that a pivot
point. Does Djokovic lose to himagain? Ever, it's kind of fascinating
how this works because the man hasmade a history of working out people's patterns
(21:59):
and behavior and then exploiting the shitout of them on a tennis court,
beating, hummeling you with them.The ore is real. I know Yanick
Sinner did some huge stuff at theend of the year, and I'm so
excited to see him in twenty twentyfour and then alcaraz is soccer ass but
Novak is Novak man. The youris real. This match gets my selection
(22:26):
for one of the matches of theYear on open Era Gold. As always,
we are on Patreon, dot com, Forward, slash open Era,
join us there, get the showad free. You get it on Sundays
plus, let join us on thediscord or Rich adding tennis all the time.
We're also on Twitter, slash xdot com, slash open Ara pod
there for producer Dylan on the Onesend Tuesday, and for Simon. Thank
(22:48):
you so much for listening to openEra. We'll talk to you next time.
Hello, and welcome to the OpenEra podcast. My name is Diving this
side. I'm joined as always bymister Simon Bushell for another edition of Open
Era Gold Bush. How are youdoing. I'm doing very well, thank
you. In addition to my previouschock about spanned out La, I also
thought about gold the chocolate box ofbiscuits. Do you know that one?
(00:35):
Are you aware of that? I'mnot? Is it like shortbread? What's
the type of biscuit it is?It's like an assortment of biscuits that you
would get around Christmas time in theUK, where you'd be given a box
of assorted biscuits, but the verybest, hence the gold labeling. That's
dangerous around me this time of yearand at all times. But our biscuit
fiend, I feel like, what'sthe slightly older version of the cookie monster?
(01:00):
Biscuit fiend? That's me? SoI think I'd like those. Are
you a biscuit man? Then?I never knew this about you? I
am? I mean I think IActually I've always liked cookies. I'll be
honest here, but biscuits have beencoming around to them lately. It's the
more refined version, right, isthere actually a difference. This is one
thing that I've always wondered. Inever knew what the what is considered a
(01:23):
cookie these days. Not to gettoo deep into biscuit talk, but like,
biscuits are also kind of bad.It's not like they're better for you,
you know, like the shortbread stufflike that that's that packs a punch?
Is this kind of like the inanebollocks that people hate about podcasts?
Just to start an opening segment,yeah, probably a full three minutes about
biscuits, but this time of year, it's fair. I was gonna say
(01:45):
Ferrero rochets, like those chocolate's wrappedin the gold foil, also reminded by
open air gold. So keep yoursuggestions coming in what does open air gold
remind you of? So we've donetwo bushel picks, it's time for the
Desi rain to begin. Simon,do you have any idea where I'm going
(02:06):
with my first pick? A littlebit of an idea. Yeah, if
I was to shut my eyes,I think I properly could have guessed the
direction that you were going in.Indeed, I probably won't surprise you when
I say that the match I chosefeatured Carlos Alkaraz and Novak Djokovic. But
I might surprise you that it's notsomething they did out of Slam, namely
Wimbledon. But for my first pick, let's return to Cincinnati. The final
(02:32):
on Sunday, August twentieth. Simona three set epic, which I think
you can say sometimes about Cincinnati,and this tournament has some blemishes, it's
not perfect. But when I heardthey wanted to move it, Simon and
Mayde me love it more. AndI think this match for me encapstulated a
(02:53):
lot of what twenty twenty three wasall about, because after Wimbledon it felt
like Carlos Aakaraz has taken over thetour. And though Novak Djokovic was not
done by any means, something hadhappened at Wimbledon. And yet, like
he's done so many times, NovakDjokovic said not yet, he certainly did.
(03:15):
Is your love affair with Cincinnati inany relation to the A baby?
I mean, aw kaginal love thatsinister child looking at you at all times
asking for donations. I think it'sit's part of my love. It's also
that it's in Mason, Ohio.I think it's one of the more random
things for tennis and what tennis isbecoming and rapidly changing into with this idea
(03:38):
of jetting off to any any placethey can go that's gonna pay him enough
money. I do like that,Mason Ohio. It's like, yeah,
we're gonna keep doing this. Notto say there's not money involved when it's
operated by a bank, but it'sjust Mason talking about the match that you're
I'll leave that aside. Perhaps I'venever been to Mason. Are you saying
(04:00):
that's not a key slogan they shouldtake. It's just Mace, take the
Oestrava route and write that at theback of the court. It's just Mason.
People come on the in like acursive. I think that's really good.
Yes, I think it's great.The first line of THEATP tour dot
com right up for this final.No fact, Djokovic won one of the
(04:21):
best matches in recent memory on Sunday. Now, that is high praise.
That is quite astonishing, and Ido you don't think so? I am
very curious to know your reasoning andrationale behind why you chose this match.
I think it is okay in fitsand starts, I don't quite understand the
(04:44):
universal love of this match, becauseperhaps we'll come on to it during the
course of this podcast. But thiswas two bodies very much aching, and
the level of tennis at times wasoutstanding, and the level of tennis at
other times looked I very much liketwo dudes just pushing an injured To me,
well, I think that's fair.I think the reason, and I
(05:05):
mean, you can make the sameargument about the Wimbledon final, couldn't you,
in terms of how good was that? I think I chose Cincinnati because
for me, it is it wasthe perfect distillation of Novak Djokovic, i'd
say, in the sense that hehad a hat on at times, he
also looked severely injured at times.He also looked super human at times.
(05:28):
He also looked annoyed at hell attimes. It was everything that is Novak
Djokovic. And to talk about someonewho ended up basically walking away with another
bag of titles, I think it'sinteresting to look at him at this particular
juncture of the season because from hereon in, I think it was a
reassertment of his claim to whatever mantleyou want to call it, aka the
(05:50):
best player currently playing. So Ithink it was an important moment because no
matter if Carlo Sakras wasn't one hundredpercent think the week before in Toronto,
at that tournament, that's all anyonetalked about. And it's also because Novak
wasn't there. But I think theconversation around the grounds is all about Okaraz
and how is his tour now,and that vibe permeated throughout the tournament there.
(06:15):
So I thought it was interesting thatin Cincinnati, while he had an
opportunity to do it again against Novak, he couldn't. And not to say
that Boris Becker and his silk areright, but there's still another step or
two for Charlie, and I thinkthat was important. Yeah, I agree
with you. I think there's alot in this match that's interesting to unpack,
not just the way that I thinkAkaraz attempted to deal with some of
(06:38):
the I don't think gamesmanship tactics istoo strong, but certainly some old man
tennis seek Novak back to and soold man stuff out there. Yeah.
Absolutely, Yeah, And I thinkthe flip side of that as well,
as it's pretty obvious that Okaraz isnot doing great by the middle of the
third set, I think he sayson court at the end that he's got
(06:58):
some severe cramps in his right handas well, and I think that's testament
to some of the rallies that wesee in the third set as well.
But it's a pretty a pretty fascinatingmatchup just from a from not only a
tactical perspective, but just from thepsychology of two dudes who know each other
fairly well. At this point,dev big time, and I think the
heat was another thing that I believe. It was like thirty two degrees celsius,
(07:21):
like ninety fahrenheit on the court,and that's probably not factoring in the
sun beating down on you, sothe humidity also being a problem, but
the conditions factoring in big time.I think you also saw them not playing
at their best at the same timefor Chunks, which has also been somewhat
familiar in their matchup or their rivalryso far. I think the ATP Finals
(07:45):
in twenty twenty three a great exampleof that, where I maybe you could
say almost didn't play badly, butI think Novak was just at the level
above. For me, this matchwas underlined by the fact that it was
peaks and valleys for both and eventhe end in which Alcaraz is finding himself
survived. I thought that was fascinating. I think there was times in the
(08:07):
second set where I thought no backwas cook cooked. In the first set,
I mean just the pure hitting earlyon in between the shadows, it
made sense that they were completely deadby the end. First off, I'm
incredibly impressed that you knew the temperaturein fahrenheit. I still to this day
have no concept what those numbers mean. Is ninety a lot? I think
(08:28):
it is? Right? Yeah,well that's why because I kept getting mad
when I saw maps in the USAwith huge numbers on it and the map
in like dark red, and I'mlike, what's going on down there?
But I had to learn. Butyeah, ninety is pretty hot. I
think you're seeing one twenty pretty regularlyin some American states these days, which
(08:48):
is terrifying. I always find itinteresting when I'm watching the NFL around Christmas
time and someone's like, it's liketwelve degrees it's going to be one of
the coldest days ever in Kansas City. I'm thinking to myself, it sounds
nice. It doesn't at all.It's pretty great. Yeah. Also,
also, America get with the times, I shouldn't yell at you. This
(09:09):
is South America. So the CincinnatiFinal, the Cincinnati Final, first set,
bush Novak jumps out to a lead, leading for two, looking fine,
like, looking like he can handleanything Okarez has to dish it him.
Like we said, this was atough day to play tennis, and
(09:31):
like throughout this tournament I mentioned Toronto, Carlos lost to Tommy Paul there.
He got revenge against Paul in thethird round here. But he played a
lot of tennis. But he playedevery match he played. It was a
three center. I wonder why hewas dead by the end. Yeah,
I think he was on call forabout ten hours well as he by the
end of this championship. Was itten hours to get to the final?
(09:52):
Which is a lot of time whenit's only the space of a single week.
I thought this first set was apretty good level overall, Like I'm
not shitting on this first set atall, Like, I think it's really
kind of fascinating from a tactical perspective. And another point on this one,
if you are a fan of long, growling, backhand to backhand rallies cross
(10:15):
court, then this was box officeviewing for you. Debank. That's what
we've got a lot of in thisfirst set. The thing arguably Simon has
the most you could say just repetitivemicro movements on the backhand side. I
love it, love it so much. I yeah, And I think when
(10:35):
Alcoraz makes to come back and Novakkind of goes away, and with the
beginning of the second set, itfeels like this could be relatively quick or
as quick as it could be forboth these guys who like to take their
time. But I think things geta bit weird towards the end of the
second set, Bush matches on Alcoraz'sracket and then it no longer is I
(10:58):
don't think this is any about likebig moments getting to him, because I
mean, once you do it atWimbledon, what's bigger than that. But
I'm curious what you think about Novakpoking and prodding around Alkaraz's game and finding
in roads or are you more onthe side of Alkhoriz's level falling off in
the second set, because there isa point there around when he gets that
(11:22):
break back in the second set whereit kind of flips. Yeah. I
think this is a fascinating question ofwhether or not how much stock do you
put in the micro adjustments Novak Djokovic, the master of poking and prodding,
and how much of this is atwenty year old thinking that he's over the
line against a guy that's suffering inthe heat and just sort of begins to
(11:45):
believe his own kool aid that he'sunbeatable on court and really does not do
enough to get across the line andkill off the greatest defensive player of all
time. I think there's probably Ithink it's probably more the latter than the
former. Honestly, I don't thinkDjokovic does anything particularly you know, fantastic
in that second set to come back. I think Corlis Akers will be kicking
(12:09):
himself. And I'm sure he wasquite the conclusion of this match, but
by goodness, this one should havebeen wrapped up and done because you know,
we kind of bury this a littlebit. But he does really well
to bring that break back in thefirst set and close out and really you
know, emphatic fashion. I thoughthe played a really good set of tennis
despite not starting well, and heplays a continuation about than the second set,
(12:31):
and then he just kind of,yeah, I think he just think
he just phones it in a littleright, which we're all guilty of in
any spot. Yeah, And Ithink the idea of expecting no back to
go away it's naive and it's alsobeen insane, like it's it's not gonna
happen no matter the situation or ninetynine point nine percent of the time.
(12:52):
It just doesn't feel like that's somethinghe will do, at least definitely not
anymore. And he didn't. Hejust stick around long enough to find to
a crack and opening and get thebreak back and then get into a tie
break in which I mean to say, which you can about obac like there's
a lot of things he can say. It's ridiculous a lot of the things
he does, but the record oftiebreaks is insane. And I also like
(13:15):
that he gets down a match pointas well in this tiebreak before reverting to
what he can do pretty pretty relentlesslywell, and that stick and rallies and
grind his opponent down into dust,even someone with an all court game like
Alcaiz. That being said, SimonI mentioned he grinded people down into dust.
Like the forehand and backhand rhythms thatNovak can generate, Like I know
(13:39):
he's He's been widely praised, butare his like regular shots underrated somehow,
Like, are we underrating that theforehand and back end are as pristine as
they are at points in this match. I think it's largely your definition of
what a clean bull striker is,because you know, I'm on record on
this podcast of saying that I thinkon ex center is one of the best
(14:00):
ball strikers ever in the history oftennants, just of how clean he strikes
a tennis ball. But Nobouk Drakovicis himself phenomenal in terms of his groundstrokes
and his ability to consistently find depthover and over and over again, metronomic
in terms of his ability to findspots over and over and I think it's
on for display in this tiebreaker andreally his entire career in tiebreakers as well.
(14:24):
Yeah, I don't think it's anysurprise to say that I think he's
the greatest tiebreak player of all time. That's not really a particularly surprising statement.
But I think it's if you arewanting a case study of why he
is so good in tie breaks,this is a really good example of why
he is. Not to give Nickcurious and he added air time, But
(14:50):
let's do it now, Simon.I don't know if he saw his comments
about how petz Abras who get murkedquote unquote, if he played into his
game he was saying Layton Hewitt murderedhim, and imagine if Layton could do
that, what Novak would do.But if you get set it up somehow,
and they did that weird Macenroe AIthing on ESPN, so it seems
(15:11):
doable. Can we not set upSampress for his Djokovic in a tie break
with the same technologies them using thesame brackets, get on it? AI
companies actually do something useful with anyof this type instead of destroying the world.
Give us this weird hypothetical that twotennis sick goes want. But I'd
(15:33):
love to see it because I alsoI mean the Novak adalyzing Pete thing and
and Sampras having one of the oneof the most ridiculous serves against a cavalcade
of great returners. It'd be abox office viewing. That's the tiebreak.
Novak wins it. He wins allthe tiebreaks, but we get to the
third set, And this is probablywhy I picked this match Simon as my
(15:54):
men's pick match of the year OpenAir Gold the third that was nuts.
And I think this is also whythis match lives so large in my head,
is because the end of this matchwas insane. Sidon because at five
three Novak leading. I remember,I'm texting you on WhatsApp getting reader to
do the show. We're lamenting.Let's be honest here, we're lamenting that
(16:18):
Novak is beaten Carlos somehow. Andyet four championships later and some incredible shot
making as Novak ser finally dipped abit, produced some hilarious stuff, some
great stuff like that was that wascapital T tennis. I guess let's start
with a question. Did you buyfor one moment that Djokovic was injured?
(16:44):
Are you still at this point?I mean, I think I'm a mark.
I'm a mark. I believe thathe needed whenever potions were sent over
his camp. It was hot.Though, Listen, it's hot, and
he's my age, so now Iearned a bit older. Yeah, I
get it, man, and he'splaying kids now it's so strange. But
I'm like, you know, what, screw with him? Kids go back.
(17:07):
I will say that I have gonepast the I'm through the looking Glass
at this point, whenever he's injuredthat I just don't believe him anymore.
He's been it's been boy who criedWolf just too many times at this point,
and I've seen him win from thesepositions too many times that I just
don't really buy it at this moment. The other thing is I don't believe
any of these people most of thetime. Because the bathroom breaks and they're
(17:30):
taken eighty minutes after losing his set. You know it's true. Okay,
So the I think the back endof this match is fantastic. It's great
drama. It's gripping. There's noother word really to describe the sequence of
events that happened to for Alcaraz readyto hang in this match the way that
he does, including that just ridiculousshot that he's down match point where he
(17:55):
has no business staying in it.I think my issue at the back end
of this is that Carlos Akros getsso so conservative, like ridiculously, and
I know the hand injury probably hassomething to do with it, but they
are not. It's keer starmer witha chance at winning an election. He
does a fantastic analogy, but yes, it's carlus Akro isn't. If there's
(18:19):
one thing that you would describe ofhim, he's not He's not a passive
player. He's not someone that justwaits for moments. He forces issues and
it looks strange when he's doing it. M M right, it looks very
weird. It looks like he doesn'the's not interested sometimes when he's just in
these long, grueling like baseline rallieswhere no one's really grueling is not even
(18:40):
the right word, right, Gruelingwould imply that this is you know,
epic tight length being you know,kept by both men and they're really picking
a part of each other when they'rekind of just it's not they're not rolling
the ball back into court, butthey are not going at one hundred percent
here at all. It's two dudeswho are being very cautious, who are
moving the ball around the court.And for me, it didn't make the
(19:03):
greatest of tennis, even though itproduced I think some really fantastic moments as
well. I think that's fair.And once again, like this, the
narrative beast uh reared its head,and I think that's why it meant.
It meant a lot. Watching thisas a fan and like looking at some
of the other big matches this year, like the Sinner Alcaraz semifinal in Miami,
(19:30):
or I think it trying to thinkof like what other maybe even wanted
a Medvedev uh spair beat downs likenon Slam edition. I think this will
this had the biggest impact on thetour, and I think that that says
something about it because of how oversizedthe Slams are in importance for tennis,
(19:55):
that this broke through in a waythat it rarely does on the men's side
in this current jucture of time.Yeah. Absolutely, I think there is
a part of this where people werelooking at to see whether the aura of
al Choraz following that victory at Wimwoodenactually held up in Cincinnati, another big
final with the eyes on another opportunityto cement himself as the world number one
(20:22):
and really take control of the tour. And I think the narrative in general
that he was the best player inthe world and that the torch had been
passed unfortually tennis doesn't really work likethat a lot of the times, and
it certainly didn't. It certainly didnot take place on this day as well.
It did not, Novak taking thethird set in a tiebreaker. We
(20:48):
had a missed Novak overhead the JocoSlam late year as well, which is
the Joco smash that we all loved, and it set the stage really for
a pretty pretty big scene at theUS Open and what we were expecting to
see there. Of course, DanielMevedev spoiled that rematch attempt and Novak went
(21:10):
on to win, beating Daniel tocap a pretty monster year for a monster
player. Twenty twenty three for NovakDjokovic three slams, the one he did
not win is because of Carlos Alkaraz. Simon any final thoughts on this rivalry,
as we zoom in and then zoomout on al Karaz Djokovic, I
think actually Cincinnati will be a fascinatingexample to study at the conclusion of Novak
(21:37):
Djokovic's career because you see this situationwhere Alkaraz beats him in a Wimwodham final
and then loses in the Cincinnati final. Whether or not is that a pivot
point. Does Djokovic lose to himagain? Ever, it's kind of fascinating
how this works because the man hasmade a history of working out people's patterns
(21:59):
and behavior and then exploiting the shitout of them on a tennis court,
beating, hummeling you with them.The ore is real. I know Yanick
Sinner did some huge stuff at theend of the year, and I'm so
excited to see him in twenty twentyfour and then alcaraz is soccer ass but
Novak is Novak man. The youris real. This match gets my selection
(22:26):
for one of the matches of theYear on open Era Gold. As always,
we are on Patreon, dot com, Forward, slash open Era,
join us there, get the showad free. You get it on Sundays
plus, let join us on thediscord or Rich adding tennis all the time.
We're also on Twitter, slash xdot com, slash open Ara pod
there for producer Dylan on the Onesend Tuesday, and for Simon. Thank
(22:48):
you so much for listening to openEra. We'll talk to you next time.
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