December 2, 2024 • 57 mins
What’s worse than one World Number 1 testing positive for banned substances? What about two World Number 1’s! Boy oh boy what a time to be at the head of the ATP and WTA with Iga Swiatek joining Jannik Sinner on the naughty stool. Dev and Simon are also joined by Priyanka Dobson to talk about the career of the recently retired Rafael Nadal.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hello, and welcome to the Open Air Podcast. My name
is de Bank Desai, and this week Simon and I
are joined by a good friend of the show. She's
been a guest many times throughout the years, Prianca Dobson.
Welcome back.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Frianca, we had to bring you back. Obviously Open Air
closing up shop, so we wanted to bring our favorite
guests back. But also the main reason that we wanted
to talk with you is because Rafael Nadal has of
course retired. Bush and I spoke about this. Bush. First
of all, how are you? I realize I have not
introduced you yet.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Oh it's okay, we've already done how many episodes together?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yeah? Of your voice. Frankly, I'm sick of your voice.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
But that's the reason I was ending, all right. Yeah, well,
I'm coming off the back of a pretty heavy flu.
I think it's still interfering with my voice somewhat, but
we'll make it through. It's adding more, adding more gravitas
to it. Let's go with that.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
You said at least ten years older, So I mean
that's that's pretty cool. So, yeah, we wanted to talk
Rafa and we will his career, the highs the lowest.
We wanted to talk Rafa as well, with someone who
I think that was a fan of the truest sense,
much like I think we were of Roger, and I
(01:36):
think that kind of exkews how we perceive athletes or
maybe changes what we consider to be their biggest and
greatest moments or maybe their lowest moments. I think that
that's definitely interesting and we'll unpack that. But first, it's
a sign, my friends, that we should get out of
the tennis podcast game, because the sport is going to hell.
(01:56):
Every single week there is more bad news. I gotta
Google alert for one Martin del Potrow doing an interview. Goddamn,
I wish I didn't open that. JMDP is hurting all
over It's all extremely bad. He's going to do an
exhibition with Novak though, and one azaries. So that was sad.
But obviously the bigger news Prianca Stefano, Cicipas and Plavadosa
(02:21):
in Iceland.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
With you with Me with Me, Yeah, that was definitely
the big news that dropped this weekend that they do
go on vacation and they happened to be in Iceland
along at the same time I was I and I
saw them and that's the only thing going on in
Tennis right now is that Palla and stuff. So thebasco
on vacation now?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Is this fair to say that Iceland has become a
normy vacation destination, as in people like us are like, yes,
let's go there, because I mean there's a lot of advertising.
I think it seems like a pretty distant place for
the masses to go. But I'm a bit surprised that
the glitterati, if the ATP and WTA would be there.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Is that wrong? No? I think it had a very
because it's from the east coast of the US. In
like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, people discovered it was only
like a five hour flight to feel like that you
were on another planet. And I think the rise of
like social media and all that has only made Iceland
like more popular. Like as soon as you could be
like oh am I in the movie Interstellar or am
(03:24):
I on Earth? People definitely fled and flocked there. So
there were it was like very it's a wellow up
machine out there, like tourist wise, they know exactly what
they're doing, So I would I wasn't one hundred percent surprise.
I think just of all of the vacation spots and
all of the hotels like in the world in the
exact moment, to almost run face first into the two
(03:45):
of them, like with my eggs from breakfast was experience.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
It's rare that you run into a couple that you've
seen on TikTok several times.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
In real life, and everyone's always so much taller than
you think they are, right, Like, I've seen them both
play tennis. But when they're next to you and like
the coffee line, you know, getting their eggs, Benedict, You're like, oh,
who are these like super tall, fit, athletic, good looking people. Oh,
they're people that I look.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
At and watch and have opinions on all the time.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
So yeah, it was they basically they look like the
characters some avatar basically compared to the rest of us,
like just like ten feet tall Navvi super athletes.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yep, exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
That's the last Avatar reference I'll make today. But I
have buried the big big news obviously Fontech joining Janick
Sinner in a bad way. He gu's not the world
number one anymore, but she is now part of the
club that has been suspended for testing positive for a
(04:46):
band substance. This one is called trematzidine, which, as Luke
helpfully mentioned on Discord, is quite close to xenadine Sidan's
last name. It's apparently a heart medication known as TMZ
which again a bit on the nose considering our dire
times these days. But Ega failed this out of competition
(05:07):
test in August. She formally admitted the antidoping role violation
on Wednesday and accepted her penalty. She missed the buzz
To tournaments from September twelfth to October fourth. I think
they were the Korean Open, the China Open, the Muhan Open.
At the time, she said she was missing it for
personal reasons. That's a whole lot different than missing it
(05:29):
because I failed a doping test. But I digress. Ega
twenty three years old, calling the experience the worst of
her life. Quote. In the last two and a half months,
I was subject to strict itia proceedings which confirmed my innocence,
the only positive doping tests in my career, showing unbelievably
low level of a banned substance I've never heard about before.
(05:51):
Put everything I've worked so hard for my entire life
into question. So friends, I mean imediate reactions when we
see this news. I think mine was, oh god, quite
sinking of the stomach, feeling bush. I wonder how you feel.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
What a time to be a tennis fan. What a
time to be at the head of the ATP and
the WTA as well. What a strange end of the
year having both the word noumber ones on the respective
tours failed hoping tests. And if you were really wanting
to draw the similarities, there's actually quite a lot of
similarities between Johnick Center and Igasiontek as well, both buying
(06:32):
medication that can be purchased over the counter in their
home countries, which have different levels of legality in different
parts of the world. They both managed to successfully challenge
the mandatory suspension that came out. They both had the
resources to manage to do that as well, and they
(06:54):
both managed to keep this quiet until the news eventually
came out of when the time perd it expired on it.
I think my thoughts are roughly the same as Janick
Sinner here. I don't think they can be much.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
I feel like I feel like I am somewhat of
a hypocrite if I say anything differently here than what
I said to the way that Janick Sinner was treated,
And I've said a million times in this podcast. And
I also accept that there is flack that comes with it.
Athletes dope, people in tennis dope. Sometimes the best players
in the world dub and maybe we just have to
(07:34):
understand that fact sometimes. I also recognize that's probably harsh.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's fair. Pre what are
you about you?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Well, first, I was sure about all the editors, are
sure that all these editors are so mad that EGA
is not still number one, so that they can very
neatly be like the two number ones this year up
and are an assemble, like is out there somewhere being like,
excuse me, I am number one right at the minute.
But I feel like I I think I'm coming to
(08:02):
the same conclusion as Bush.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
I don't know, my worldview.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Has become quite cynical lately. Who knows why, No, no
actual reason why. But I'm like this, what is all
these number one players walking around with like contaminated substances
all the time? Like, are all of our supplements and
vitamins just all contaminated and nobody knows and everyone's just take.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
A shitload of melatonin and my tennis game has gotten
worse over Yeah, just saying so I don't know, I
don't know what dosed she's.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Getting, And like I it sounds like they both follow
the rules, but the whole like not being able to
be able to do it in private, Like I know
that there are some weights ways that that is probably
good for her and mentally and like to not have the.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Press and the media all over her, but for.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
It to have this all be able to happen like
behind the scenes, I think also just adds to like
the obfuscation and the special treatment, even though when you
do more reading, neither of them apparently got special treatment.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
But there's no denying that. You can't that you know.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
The resources that they have must have contributed to how
they were able to see those through now big time.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
And I think like the quotes after this, like I
saw Karen Morehouse, the ITIA chief executive, be like, well,
I don't think there's no one should be concerned about this.
I think she says, quote, I don't think this is
a cause for concern for tennis fans. The fact that
we're being clearly open, transparent. It shows the breadth and
depth of our anti doping program. I think that is.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
True.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
But I also I do not compare this to Simona
Hallip's case as one for one, because I think it
is different and the levels and the drug are different.
And from the preliminary reading I've done of various Reddit
doctors and things like that, and it does seem like
this was quite a low low do so maybe it's
(10:01):
not in that that halop realm. But then I also
see that TMZ is that the drug at the center
of a case involving twenty three Chinese swimmers who remained
eligible for the Tokyo Olympics' spite testing positive for this
that Russian figure skater Camilla Valieva, who I think her
case just got settled a few months ago by CASS.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
So like, the.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Drug is not some random thing that you you randomly
stumble upon and it's like whoops. But the level that
IgA had was so low that you you want to
give the benefits of the doubt. But to Simona ALP's point,
how long did Simona Hallup wait for these decisions to
go down right without this shield that was given to
Sitar and Fiontek, and I think that difference it's worth examining.
(10:49):
I don't think the cases are the same, but I
do think this is a really good example of how
tennis I think exemplifies the wider world, because you clearly
have different rules for different people based on their status
and stature within the game, and this is another example
of that.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
Well, I think there's two points as well that I
would I would add to this. Number one is, if
you do take the point that many top professional athletes
are doping, I should you know. I'll put a carryat
to that if you take the point if you take
my previous point about how people don't within the sport
(11:28):
of tennis, it is somewhat surprising that has taken this
long for several hyper power players to be found or
have been caught using this methodology, and it does raise
the question of why has it taken this long and
who else is doing it. Definitely there's a second part
of this as well, which is that in the murky
(11:51):
world of supplements and wellness and whatever you want to
throw in that buzzword, the kind of like RFK junior,
Facebook mum, like the stuff that is like not regulated
around the world and has sort of given rise to
(12:11):
a multi multi billion dollar industry. Is that it does
not surprise me that some of these defenses largely fall
around alternative medicine or alternative treatments that can be used
to mask or point the eye in a different direction.
And I wonder whether or not there's a conversation around
(12:32):
how healthcare and drugs more broadly are administered and considered
perhaps worldwide. You know, aware that these are very broad
topics and that we don't have time to get into them.
I want to prey, like, are you surprised that it's
taken this long to have high profile athletes in the
(12:53):
sport of test positive, you know, against obviously the backdrop
of Haleben. I know there's been a couple of others
that have been you know, one and one doubles FLA
for example, But what is your assessment of this case
and like how long it's taken for whether it's whether
it's surprising that it's taken this long.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Again, it feels like I am not where none of
us have ever had all the information right. It seems
like testing technology has gotten better, but it also seems
like people have gotten shiftier or been able to get
around it. Like theoretically, if you were going to dope,
the way and the story that this particular situation came
(13:33):
through or the way that it's described like sounds like
a great way to be, Like, how do I dope.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Without getting caught? Now, I'm not accusing anyone of that.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
It seems very clear that most parties here seem you know,
she's serving the suspension, to be serving it during the
off season. Is that really a suspension? You know, A
question for another time. But you know, maybe the technology
is getting better, maybe the amount of drugs is changing.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Maybe the people weren't as into their.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Health and nutrition early, Like That's something I've.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Been thinking about like this, I feel like Djokovic started
this whole thing of like being so in tune with
your health that now all these top players have these
huge teams and medications and supplements, and I feel like
there used to be and Andy Murray type of, Hey,
I don't take anything over the counter because I don't
want to be caught with anything. So maybe it's just
in the rise kind of what you were saying Bush
(14:22):
like concurrent with the rise of like wellness as a
billion dollar industry is also the rise of you know,
all these different types of things that could be affecting performance,
and it's such a weird thing to talk about in
the midst of the broader you know, tennis washing, sports washing,
but also for me, like women's sports and transports and
biological advantages and that really icky conversation. So when we
(14:43):
talk about conversations about like resources and advantages and like
vitamins and hormones, like, it all just starts to get
really icky, and I think also contributes to the reaction
to these stories just being more of like, I guess
everyone's doing it, so here we are.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
I do enjoy how once this happens you have to
dump your coaching staff into the middle of the ocean,
never to return again, Like you have to basically delete
their phone number from your phone and never speaks to
them again. Because during this I think IgA also announced
the coaching change that makes a little more sense now,
(15:20):
perhaps if you want to read into things, I think
we saw similar with the Annik as well. This is
a huge deal. But also I will say working in
sports as my day job didn't break through in a
huge way in my neck of the Woods, and I
don't know if that's good or bad, to be honest, Like,
(15:44):
is it bad that someone who we consider to be
the one of the phases of the game testing positive
didn't exactly move the needle. Maybe it's because the season
is over, Maybe because it's the band was so short.
Maybe it's because she already served it. Like, I don't know, Oh, Bush,
I'm part of me thinks it's a bad sign. You
know that A the top people are getting busted for doping,
(16:06):
and then b it's like, well, huh, Like I guess
so that maybe that is as much of a surprise
as we've got.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
I think I would I would say in addition to that,
I think it's by design. Is it not that it
didn't break through? Is that if you want to follow
this through to the you know, conclusion of it and
how you do this as a PR team, is that
you'd want the news to come out after the test
had happened, after the suspension had been served, after the
matches has been played, in a dead period of the season,
(16:34):
when you know everything's wrapped up and no eyes are
on the spot. This feels like again, I think we
use the same phrasing for a sinate, didn't it. They
played a blinder of when you want to drop the news,
if you want to look at some really good pr
this is a pretty good one as well.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Can I say that dropping the same move weeks after
the first one the audacity that the idea is like,
you know what we are, We're good, We're going We're
going to run this playbook identically.
Speaker 5 (17:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Do you guys think Shriontek drafted off of how Sinner's
case has gone out and played out throughout the media,
because even he is being super embraced even though he's
technically still under appeal, right, Like somebody could come I
think cast could come out tomorrow and be like just
kidding his band for one to two years because he
has to take responsibility for his team. But I feel
like they really benefited from how much everyone just kind
(17:23):
of accepted what had already happened to him, and Ego
was like me too.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yeah, I think that's a good point. And to Simon's
point as well, like that's how that's how you win
these things. I think that's why some of these pleasures
so pissed, like people like Chappo or like what the
hell is going on? Like why didn't we know about this?
You would think as well, with tennis being so in
seiler and like the drama that we see happen week
(17:50):
to week on the courts, were their whispers going around
when Ego is missing these events?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
You know?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
And she was citing different reasons when we see the
beef on court sometime. Is there anything to you that?
Probably not? But it's another point for me is that
you know, the networks won't really mention this that much
to an extent. I mean, they talked about Yannix thing
for like ten minutes in New York and then he
went on to win the thing. And another way, you
(18:17):
could almost use this to build on stuff if you
wanted to play into that drama aspect and that entertainment
reality TV aspect. The problem is you can't because then
you open the door to Pandora's box about oh wait,
is our game tainted as fuck?
Speaker 4 (18:29):
So well, I think the pr strategy here is doubt,
is it not. It's to create a sense of illegitimacy
in either the organization that's doing the testing or the
positive test result as a whole. Right, So it's coming
up with an excuse which sounds plausible to the wider public,
and it's having that it's both doubt in the organization
(18:49):
in the test, and then moving the sort of pivot point,
the inflection point, from the moment that it happens to
a later point in time so that you don't have
like the Ice World pointing on the individual. Pretty pretty
damn effective, I have to say, because.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
It's worked well said, Okay, anything else folks on this
before we go to RAFA. The reason we're here today.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
I think there's a point in here broadly about how
just sad this is for the sport of tennis. And
not to be too like overully dramatic about it, but
it's not. It's not a positive reflection on the sport.
I don't think that both of your kind World number
two annual World number one are under not I would
(19:33):
say beyond a cloud of uncertainty in regards to their
their influence on performance enhancing drugs. I think it's just
a it's a bad look for the sport, and I
think it also just it reinforces there's a lot of
icky stuff going on in the sport of tennis that
has just made it a bit of a tough year
to swallow.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
More broadly, Yeah, I think it's just anytime the quote
unquote rules come into so if you're getting in the
way of someone's enjoyment of sports. I felt the same
way in the Olympics with you know, calls and overturned judgments,
like as soon as the rules come into play, as
they should be being held accountable. You know, we should
(20:14):
want our institutions to be holding folks accountable even when
they break the rules. But it does, as I think
the technical term we keep talking about is ichy. It
makes it less fun to watch, It makes it less
fun to get joy out of. It makes it less
of an escape if from you know, the corruption of
the world, if everything else that you watch for fun
is also kind of tainted with some of this, So
(20:35):
I totally agree with you. It adds to some sadness,
some melancholy and the kind of sad overall vibe of
the changing of the guard. Not to segue into inter
rafa that way, but it does feel like the end
of an era in some ways, and the end of
an open era potentially.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
It's well said, Uh yeah, the other of you guys,
you guys dailed it, and you sadness was the main
feeling and curiosity of how this scampit was played again
now this masterful camp it was was played again, and
to see what, if any further fallout will be. But yeah,
(21:15):
I think the overall vibe was not again and this
has been a tough year to follow this sport. But
when we come back, we're going to talk about Rafa.
We'll go through our favorite Nadal moments. We'll also go
through I think some of the reaction. I'm curious what
you guys think about, maybe the farewell itself, the low
key nature of it, and Nadal's future all of that
(21:38):
coming up next on Open Era. Welcome back to the
Open Air Podcast. We've talked about it at length, so
has the rest of the tennis world. Rafael Nadal is
no longer competing on the ATP. He said goodbye to
(22:00):
the tennis world at Davis Cup. It was the place
where he introduced himself, so that felt just right. We've
talked enough about it, though, pre I'm curious, as a
Rapas super fan, what's it been like in a couple
of ways, because I think over the last two years,
I want to say, we've been having this convo probably
more we had it on the discord. We've had it
(22:23):
after big moments, after great moments, after sad moments. But
I think when it did actually come, the sadness that
I felt surprised me. But I'm curious where you were at.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
So I am notoriously bad at the endings of things.
It's probably some like deep seated fear of death or something.
I don't know, but it's like it took me a
really long time to watch the season finale of Gilmore Girls,
like one of my favorite shows, because I couldn't accept
that it was ending. And to the same degree, I
actually have not watched the retirement ceremony in its entirety
(22:59):
because I also have come to this conclusion I think
two years ago, Like in my head, he's been retired
since he withdrew from Wimbledon that one time. I think
everything else he's done since then, you know, showing up
for Rogers farewell at the Labor Cup, which I think
was after that, right, I'm not mixing up timing the Olympics,
(23:20):
Nadal Karaz even you know, playing Vera of this, like
his last French Open being against Verav and losing in
the first round, and like having that back to back,
never having lost a clay match back to back, wrecord
broken on his very last French Open match, Like it
just didn't seem right to me, so all to say,
(23:42):
you know, I think everyone wants a serena type of
exit where like you have flashes of that brilliance, you
beat the world number two, you get glitter, you get
Oprah whatever it is, and not that saying that I
needed that, because I also don't think Grafa wanted that.
He was very clearly didn't want anything at the Friend
He didn't even really want something here. I think I
(24:03):
like have come to terms with it and it's just
like a melancholy that has been lasting I think over
the last two years.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
To be honest, I think that one of the most
interesting reactions for me are people who were not mad.
But maybe we're questioning why there wasn't like a bigger
ceremony at the Davis Cup. And I think the the
the i TF President David Haggerty's like listen, like we
followed raphis lead like he didn't want to do anything crazy,
(24:31):
and I think Felicie Lopez said something similar. But to
me that that kind of made this a little more
genuine in the sense that, like I as much as
I love the Labor Cup and God, that Ellie Goulding
song still makes me try to this day, I did
feel like it everything with the Labor Cup, like it's
(24:51):
a marketing thing, it's a barely a tennis thing, but
like it didn't feel as authentic as as you would
have liked. And I know, whenever the Davis Cup is
now things to sure IPK and Friends is definitely not
what it once was. But to have this kind of
happen after a loss to Netherlands in the quarterfinals of
the Davis Cup, that's tennis right Like that, that to
(25:14):
me is like the one of the better ways to
go out if you're someone like raphin it all. And
to have people like Roger and Novak and Serena Andy
send those messages but they're not there because they know
who wants to be in Malacho watching talent Greeks sport
versus Carlos Aakraz in November. Like I think there's something
to that where it's like this was a tennis heads
(25:36):
farewell in a way. Bush, I don't know, Am I
am I crazier?
Speaker 4 (25:39):
No, I think you're right, and I think it's also good.
It's a good comparison point because like this idea, in
this notion that like sponsors and the event would not
want to put on a massive ceremony for you know,
the greatest Spanish athlete of all time and Hammon up
to the nth degree is fascical to me, Like everyone
wants that. The only person who probably didn't want that
(26:01):
is Rafael Nadal. So I think the comparison point of
the Labor Cup is really kind of fascinating because yes,
it's a marketing event, and I think the thing that
stands out for Vederer's retirement is a sincere moment of
him and Rafael Nadal against the backdrop of a very
insincere event, of a complete marketing event. They can flip
(26:23):
that in contrast to this. The Davis Cup, for all
of its faults and for all of the things that
we can say about it, you are absolutely correct. You
are playing botic vander zanderschulp in.
Speaker 5 (26:36):
No.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
We love who we love, people who we love talent Grish.
We we love this man.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
This is not a denigration, no slight to those athletes
at all, people who we love. But this was purely
tennis related. This was a dude who wanted to go
ahead and compete for his country in a competition that
he very much appreciated, supported and wanted to do well
in represent his country and end his care on his back.
(27:01):
That is something that is so laudable and I think
looks so much better in comparison to what we got
at the lay of a cup. And you know, again
hands up with someone. I love that moment at the
lay of a cup. But this one, again, I've said
so many times and I apologize. It just felt right
for the man to get this sign off. It felt
like it was very, very very sincere and very honest.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah, I think I didn't. Again, I didn't watch it
front to back. I saw some clips on social media
and I was like, again, I think his speech after
the twenty twenty two French Open win was kind of
his retirement speech. I think for me, his torch bearing
moment at the Olympic opening ceremony in Paris, I think
that was a really nice grace note on his career
and the impact that he's had on the world of sport.
(27:45):
Like I think he's had some of these, but to
have him be retiring like playing for Spain, the entire
The focus of the event was not on him. The
focus was on the country, was on the team. You know,
it felt very true to what he's always been about
with a career, with his career, which is like Busha's.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
Saying, like the tennis.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
And not to say that feder was not about the tennis,
but Feeder also took his role as a statesman of
this sport, I think very seriously, as someone who could
publicize it and bring that grace and that energy and
that worldwide popularity.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Like I think he really embraced that role as the
elder statesman of the sport. Whereas Rafa he was already a.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
You know, an upstart, a competitor when he and a
disruptor rather when he came in, And so why wouldn't
he also disrupt the way that he says goodbye?
Speaker 5 (28:30):
Right?
Speaker 2 (28:30):
I almost wish that he did the Venus and never
really retired altogether and just showed up where he wanted to.
But clearly, you know, he's been in pain for so long,
and we kept asking him, you know, we all demanded
of him like dude, when are you going.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
To call it?
Speaker 2 (28:44):
And so he finally gave us an answer. So why
wouldn't it be super muted, given that it's not even
probably how he wanted to end it either.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
To be honest, I think if you if you are
making the movie of Raphael Nadal's career or the biopic
of it, I think his career ends in that French
Shope the speech in two thousand and two. I think
the rest of it is sort of an epilogue to it,
like there's been some there, some moments, but it's clearly
not showing him losing in round one in twenty twenty
four to Alexander Zverev. And I think we don't always
(29:15):
get the fairy tale sign off that we wanted, even
though I think we were calling it live or in
that discord that's it, like it has to be here.
Twenty twenty two. You just dummied caspar Rude. You've just
loved caspar Rude, bageled him in the.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Final CASTE wanted him to win that French open. Casper
Rude was like, please, sir, take the titles.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Angles shattering the way it did felt like another sign
of some sort that this was meant to be who
I Yeah, I think the movie. The movie starts with
that torch bearing scene at the Olympics and then it
(29:57):
rewinds and it reverses. That's why screenplay idea and I
guess I'm going burnow for the actor who's playing him
to buy up.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
You gotta know who you guys think, Sure, let's go
with that.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
That's a great choice.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
It's better than whatever acting capability. And a doll showed
in that Shakira music video, which I don't know why
wasn't included in this retrospective doc is something.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
We had to talk about.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
But for me, it's an important moment. Phantom.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I saw a very Ai something to add with him
and Roger with something in the mountains. I don't know
what brand it was.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Yeah, they were in the Dolomites, just being like.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Was that Ai or was that real? Because if it
was real, I'm blessed, I'm less disturbed.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
But yeah, oh it was real. It was real.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
It was like, we're about to go retire with our
fancy luggage on our fancy vacations. Please join us.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
I think of it all the goods. Raff is going
to sell us to us now. I can't wait. Okay,
So I wanted to I wanted to kind of end
or like kind of close on this kind of bigger
topic of our memories of Rafa and kind of the
standouts or those those moments that left you maybe convinced
(31:15):
as a I'm a fan, I'm a zealot, I'm going
to pack this guy to the end, or a moment
that left you in ah or a moment that left
you sad as hell, and I'm not sure if you're
going to recover. And I was going through some listicles
of Rafa's matches and I thought the one the ATP
put together was good because it kind of goes through
(31:37):
some of the ones that maybe don't get enough credit
and like or maybe the tournaments that don't get enough credit,
like two thousand and five Madrid, but pre maybe do
you have an adull match that for you is kind
of like quintessential Rafa, who was that.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Very first French Open in two thousand and five when
he beat Federer in the semi final. I know I
should have prepped and been sure because I can picture
the image so clearly in my head that I'm like
and that.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
I'm mixing up probably when it was, but it was
when he beat Feedder and just was so humble about
it and at.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
That point, you know, I was in my preteens and
I was just tired of the same guy winning all
the time, especially because Federer made it look so easy,
which I understand is what Federer fans like loved about him.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
But I think the combination of Rafael like not making
it look easy, like you could see how hard he
was trying from the very beginning, but also executing, and
then also that he was a disruptor and we weren't
just going to see the same guy win all the time.
It was all really endearing for me. And then actually
the super endearing thing was when he won the French
Open finally that year and he thanked the ball boys
(32:48):
in his speech because he was so like he didn't
even know what to say, like what a winner is
supposed to say in these types of things, And he
looked around in his broken English and was like and
the ball boys, you guys were all super helpful.
Speaker 6 (32:59):
And I'm like, who's this like teenage kid who just
wants to play tennis and just like arrived on the
world stage and he's nice and humble, but man, he
is like just such a fierce.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Competitor to watch. I was like mesmerized from the beginning.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Oh that's that's a great choice, and like, that's that's
peak RAPHI is coming to ruin my life era in
shorts that I was like, what's going on with these
shorts like the Pirate, the Pirate asthetic, the sleeveless stuff,
(33:35):
and it's funny now like looking back, I feel like
an asshole for hating him as much as I did,
because it doesn't make any sense. He's literally a teenager
doing things that had not been done. I get someone,
like you said, who had like this, who had already
built quickly I would say Relt very quickly, had built
an aura of almost invincibility. So for the for the
(33:56):
sport itself, god did they need that. But personally Bush
I wanted this guy out of the pain. He was
ruining everything. How did you feel?
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (34:05):
I think the question on what a single match defines
his career is so challenging, and I think Preeze right
like that. I think that is an encapsulation of who
he was, like the fenom that he was. I think
that so often is circled around the dial of what,
you know, what an unbelievable specimen he was going into
(34:26):
that French open, what a phenom. He was his ability
to do things on a clay court that I think
many people had never seen before. All those things are accurate,
I think I would draw. I don't think I could
do his career in one match. And the only reason
I say that is because it's it's twenty one years
long his career and he's such a He is the
(34:48):
definition of an evolution of a tennis player because grows
up on a clay court. Is this for all we
talk about him being like, you know, the physical specimen.
Admittedly I just did refer to it. The player that
he is now that he won in twenty twenty two.
He is stockier, he is burlier. He is like a
full grown, you know man. But he's also much chunkier,
(35:09):
like much much bigger, and physically he's changed significantly. He
goes from if you want to use the boxing analogy,
he goes from a cruiserweight to a heavyweight. And people
don't think about rapping now. Doubt that way. But if
you look at him in twenty twenty two, he's a big,
big dude. He's imposing. He is you know, the physicality
is something different. It's not used for the sort of
(35:30):
twitch muscle movement at the back of the court defensively
in that you see in his first French Open. It's imposing,
it's putting his will on matches and using the strength
that he has. So I think the evolution I would
probably show. I would show him winning a French Open,
and then I would show it in comparison to him
(35:51):
getting dummied at various different stages on different surfaces, and
then show him winning that Grand Slam like two years afterwards.
I think that's what I would do because for every
for every dominant performance that there was on clay, there
was him losing to Fernando Gonzales in a quarter final
at the Australian Open. There was him, you know, getting
(36:12):
absolutely dummied like let's lose sight of it by like
Roger Feedder in a French Open final. For the first
few years there was him. He got annihilated by Andy
Roddick when he first started playing on the hard courts
at the US Open, and then to come to have
the career that he did, to be able to make
the strides that he did on those surfaces, I think
(36:33):
that's the representation he Yeah, he's always been a clay
court player. Like he's always been the best clay court
player ever, I think, but he's never been the best
tennis player on those of the surfaces until he was.
He had to evolve to get there. And I think
that's the story of his career.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
That's really well said. And I think that's why I
want to choose for the impossible task I give it us.
I want to choose the twenty twenty two Australian Open final,
like one final, one magic dose of Rafa, because man,
I think I was writing something on that one and
I had a literal full it was done, it was done,
(37:10):
ready to go. I had written this man off several
times before, but I was smart enough even in twenty
twenty two to say, let's wait, but on a hard court.
To your point, Simon, they get someone like med who,
I mean, to his credit, had this kind of idea
about him that he was not scared of playing the greats.
(37:31):
I thought that was one of the more spectacular swarning
things I've ever seen in my life. Down two three,
l forty in the third set to come all the
way back. See him at the end of that match
as well, kind of got a good read. I think
of when the end was coming. He got the next
(37:52):
slam at the French Open, but that was the last one,
And if you look at his his timeline, it's kind
of remarkable, like he had missed the last he had
missed the US Open, he had missed Wimbledon, he did
not win the French Open in twenty twenty one. I
think to come to the Australian Open and went in
the way he did it was just a brilliant reminder
(38:15):
of what an incredible athlete this guy is. Because to
say that he willed himself into becoming an all court genius,
I think it's fair bush like it was not something
he was blessed with right away, and we got to
see it kind of develop against the backdrop of someone
who dealt with a horrible myriad of injuries pre Like
(38:35):
I think the other thing I wanted to ask you
about is having someone as your favorite, or have someone
you back to the to the end, seeing them go
through just the injury trials and tribulations that they went through.
Like I think the other part about Ralf is mentally
how strong you got to be to come back from
(38:56):
career defying derailments that seemed to happen every couple of years.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yeah, I think I would pick the twenty twenty two
Australian Open final as a maybe the Nadeiro of Nadal
matches for similar reasons, dev because of the immense amount
of like everything that builds up to that, including his
entire career up until then, like knowing the highs that
he had gotten to, and the fact that he was
(39:23):
playing on house money.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
You know, I think we were all in the discord
together like watching that, watching that match, being like sure, maybe, sure,
maybe he's going to pull it off. But one of
the reasons that that match stands out to me so
much is because one of my core Nadal matches was
an adoll fan is actually the twenty seventeen final loss
to Federer. As much as I think about his wins,
I also think.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
About his losses and how he comes back from that
and how he comes back from that in the moment,
and truly, you know, I wanted to shout out Gary
Nathan's piece and the Defector about Nadal also a Federer guy,
I think from the beginning, also someone who him to
get out of the way with his pirate pants. But
you know, he spakes very eloquently a piece about how
(40:06):
watching Rafa around that time, just put one foot in
front of the other and like, play through the pain,
be really present, not take any moment for granted, not
take any point for granted. You know, he even says afterwards,
like I don't think I'm going to win these matches.
I just you know, play the next point in front
of me. And that's what he did when he was
a teenager playing Fetterer in two thousand and five. That's
(40:26):
what he's been doing from the very beginning all the
way until the very end of twenty twenty two, is
putting one foot in front of the other and trying
his best and trying to be present in every moment.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
And for me at that time in my life, you know,
I was going through some grief.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
And it was really inspiring. You know. Yeah, this is
a sport of tennis, that's the sport I used as
an escape. But it was it was a huge source
of inspiration to me to be like, you know, I
can just put one foot in front of the other.
I can say, you know, the only way out is through,
and the only way to move forward is to just
play the next point.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
You know, Gary talks about.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
This in his piece and it really resonated with me,
and it still resonates me with me now, and it's
one of the reasons why Nadal is always going to
be an athlete I admire, even if he sinks into
the sportswa Washing, Saudi six Kings Slam, World of Tennis.
You know, that kind of perseverance, that kind of grit,
it's really special and it's really inspiring. And even Daniel Medvedev,
(41:19):
someone who I wanted to win that title because I
wanted in changing of the guard even then I didn't.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Want Jokovic to keep winning.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
It's that I'm consistent with. But to see Nadal just
again fight till the very, very, very very end is
something that's really going to stay with me for a
long time.
Speaker 4 (41:35):
I think just to pick up on that point as well,
is that on that on that sort of theme of
resilience and change and evolution, like just to say yes,
watch his watch his win in twenty twenty two at
the Australian Open, and then go back and watch him
in two thousand and five at the French Open in
his first Grand Slam, of how different of a player
(41:57):
he is. And I think there's so many intro lessons
to take, you know, not just from the resilience of
the physicality of sort of and the mental side of
that he showed to come back, but also of how
different You're not the same person that you were when
you're eighteen that you are when you're thirty six, and
(42:18):
you might have to play slightly differently, and you might
have different strengths and different weaknesses, but you can still
achieve great things. They might be different. It just so
happens that this is a sport where you know you're
only doing one thing, you're hitting a ball over the net,
but there are a nuances in it right in terms
of how you're winning points, about how you're moving around
the space. This is such a different athlete, and I
(42:40):
think that's so laudable in a time period where specialization
is so rampant. You see it in so many different sports.
Where you see one player who's encouraged to do one
thing their entire career. That's not Raphie an Adull. It
really isn't. And I think that's perhaps one of the
biggest compliments that I can pay to him.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
It's wild, like I'm just looking back at like some
of the also the characters involved, like the people who
like Juan Carlos Ferrero probably should have played Roddick in
that in that Davis Cup two thousand and four final.
But someone makes a change. I think Jordy Rssay makes
(43:18):
a change, a controversial change, and picks Na Doll like
there's there's people along the way who maybe knew sooner
than we did, and I think Tony di Doll is
cheap among them. I loved this quote. It was like,
I'm just glad people know he's a good person. It
was like the classic Tony Dedalote chapter closing quote on
(43:38):
his on his nephew. But yeah, I took this stroll
down memory lane and maybe unsurprisingly got emotional looking at
these moments and also thankful that I'm able to look
on them differently now because I think, and I still
do this today, but fandom warps and skews how you
absorb things and how you understand them. And I think,
(43:59):
obviously back the day, I did not have the same
appreciation for Rafa that I do now, and then I
did as I as I began to develop as a
as a person and I think as a fan and
being able to understand the levels to this and understand
how much he offered to the game and how how
it can be good to have differing varieties in style,
(44:20):
because I think the other thing is that the contrast
between him and Fed was pretty ridiculous, Like literally they
played with different hands, but like it was almost like
they were two examples of the inverse. And I think
that that added to the to the mystique in the
lore of this rivalry. And then of course Snovak coming
along and the Big Three, et cetera. But maybe we'll
(44:43):
end here. I mentioned Ega and the news not breaking
through as much as you would think, but obviously the
Rafa stuff did, and I think you saw everyone come
out and have their trip. I think Fence's classic Fed
like very nerdy and like god who wrote this, but
(45:04):
also daring. You had Novaks like Novak clearly is like
in his Aaron Rodgers. I can see mortality e mode
where he's like, ah, the future, it scares me. But
you had like Serena and you had Pep Guardiola. I
think Rafa went to go see Man City to save
them because they're in shambles currently. Like I'm curious if
(45:25):
there was like a reaction for you guys that maybe
hit the hardest for you, Like, was there something that
kind of just like was like, oh, like you saw
that and it was it was something that made you
feel good.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Pre I actually think it was really sweet how emotional
Carlos Alcaraz was not to think through like the changing
of the guard I think for me. With Roger and
Annie Murray and Serena all retiring fairly recently, we've gotten
this sort of like echo chamber of greats being like
(45:57):
you were also great. I in fact was great, but
you also were great, and it wasn't so great to
be great. But to see Carlos see someone that he
grew up idolizing and get the chance for this guy
to be around long enough for him to play alongside him,
just like the total admiration and respect I think was
really moving and just really brought into relief how long
(46:21):
his career was, Like there's a reason we can't the
one match we're all picking is also very recent because
he's been playing for so long and he's inspired generations
of folks and so EGA included right Egan and Carlos
are you know and casperude as we've all mentioned, whole
Dominic team all folks that have drafted off the we
off of school in one way or another, whether officially
(46:43):
or not. And so I think that for me was
also like his legacy is going to live on. He's
not dead. I need to stop talking about him. He's dead.
But you know, I think that was really moving for me.
Speaker 4 (46:54):
Yeah, I would take the alcaras one as well. And
I think one of the interesting parts that is perhaps
maybe not talked about as much. Maybe it was at
one point maybe a ledessima time it was, but was
ultimately that this is the man or woman, this is
(47:17):
the this is the best clay court tennis player in history.
There's no one that actually comes anywhere near him. He's
been the best tennis court player or clay court player
since he was I mean, you can make the argument
since he was fifteen. You can also make the argument
maybe that he's been one of the best clay court
players of all time since he was like sixteen, and
(47:38):
then turned into the greatest k club player when he
was seventeen or something. But to be that good on
one surface is such a remarkable achievement that I think
it doesn't get quite the context. It's so the scale
(47:59):
of it is so huge, huge of how much better
he was than everyone else on that one surface that
it's almost become laughable. And I think that's I think
that kind of got summarized a little bit in these reactions,
which is, yes, there is the talk about him as
a human being, and yes as a fighter, and yes
(48:19):
as all of the other things. To be able to
play on these other serfaces and win titles, but to
do this, they'll have the success that he had at
the French Open. And to be that good on one
surface is something that is so mind numbingly difficult that
I think that speaks maybe the loudest out of everything
in terms of how people were talking about him.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
I've always had to defend that, like throughout my Nadal fandom,
especially in the later years, of folks being like, well,
takeaways French Open titles and he only has first, only
has six Grand Slams, first of all, only doing a
lot of work there. Second of all, taking away his
fourteen titles, his fourteen titles where he won seven in
(49:00):
a row, including bageling some of.
Speaker 7 (49:02):
The greatest players of all time, Like talk about wins
that aren't included in some of his lists, they're not
as exciting tennis, but bageling Novak, Djokovic and a Grand
Slam final is not an easy thing to do.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
Let alone, you know, many multiple times.
Speaker 3 (49:16):
So yeah, I totally agree with you.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
There. Only Joey Chessnutt has done anything even further, and
that's not even a real record.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
Let's be real.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
So I mean that alone is historic. It's so superhuman. Bush,
to your point, we can't even give it the flowers
that it deserves.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
It's well put, all right. I think we could leave
it there. I don't know if you guys have some
final thoughts. I think just to touch on that triple
retirement quad retirement note Bush, The departure of these legends
has hit differently. I think seeing them kind of re
(49:52):
emerge in some cases quickly, in some cases not so quickly.
In some cases in shocking circumstances like Andy Murray becoming
Novak's coach. I think we'll see Rafa around the game.
I'm not worried about him falling off the face of
the earth and not being involved in tennis, but how
he is involved is going to be very interesting to me. Obviously,
(50:13):
he's got that academy and he's heavily linked with his
friends in Spain who are now in the power positions.
If you look at within tennis and then the broad
broader game, a lot of rap Is contemporaries are the
people kind of in control now. So I wonder if
he wants to use some of that power that influence
(50:33):
two effect change within the game, because I think we've
talked at length on this spot about things that need
to happen or should happen. But without him it will
be harder. Because I asked this last time, but like,
I think he's top five pre in terms of like
recognition athlete worldwide. He's up there, and you don't replace
(50:54):
people like that in tennis. I don't think it should
be like that one for one. But there's a huge
hole and I'm not I'm not confident we're going to
fill it without without some bullshit in between. So it's
it's sad for me. I know Bush had a kind
of more choous opinion of this all, but I think
I'm I'm viewing rough his departure with more of a
(51:15):
sad lens. But that's also maybe because of what's been
going on the last few weeks and months and years.
Speaker 4 (51:21):
Can we take a guess because I think it would
be interesting of what he's thinking the next ten years
of him, what position he holds, like where he goes
and in the world, because I think this is one
of the more fascinating conversations because it's so wide the
opinion that you hear from people. I think I've said
on the podcast before, I don't see him as as
a full time coach globally at all. I don't see
(51:42):
him being a coach for another player. I don't even
see him being a global figure. I think he's purely
in Spain, like I think he's basically if he's if
he's president of the of the Spanish Tennis Federation, that's
I think that's as far as he goes. I think
he's happy to be in s He's captain of the
Davis Cup team in Spain, that's it. I think that's involvement.
I think he wants to be a part of his academy,
(52:03):
and I think I think he wants to be in Spain,
I spend time with his family. Like, I don't see
him being like a massive touring figure. But I could
be wrong on that one. I'm curious only on both
of your opinions on that one.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
I mean, even though fan fiction would want for him
and Roger to like come out of retirement and Raffa
coaches Carlos and federal coaches Yannick and everyone just has
their little fan fictions of who coaches who. I totally
agree with you, Bush, I think we're not going to
see as much of him as maybe some others. Like
I think Roger is going to be very present in
(52:39):
like the business world on and everything. I think Novak
is probably going to become president of Serbia eventually and.
Speaker 3 (52:46):
He can't let it go. And I think Rafa is
going to be involved in Spain and potentially maybe some
other opportunities. But like if Roger calls him up and
asks him for a favor.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
You know, Rafa, Roger and Novak ending up is in
NATO is the heads of their state or I mean,
it's it's all it's all in play. It's all in play,
all right. Maybe we'll leave it there. I don't know. Well,
let's let's go around the group final thoughts, parting shots.
Rafa edition Bush, what do you got?
Speaker 4 (53:19):
The greatest clay court player of all time? Unbelievable fights,
A game evolved massively, someone that has to be respected
for so many reasons, not just his tennis. I think
tennis is poor without him being an active participant in it,
So it's it is sad from that perspective, but it felt.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
Right for me. It's the end of an era. Now.
All the swag around my house, you know, I'm surrounded
by arts of him and birthday presence of hats with
his logos, and you know, my loved ones can distill
dine out on that for the rest of time for
anyone listening. I will still take any and all Rafa themed.
Speaker 5 (53:56):
Gifts, but it's it's the end of an era and
all I hope all of us are not remembered by
our last moments, and I certainly won't remember Rafa by
the end of his I will choose to remember him
and with the entirety of his tennis career, the ups
and downs and all the moments that he fought through.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
And I am just glad that we got it for
as long as we did, because that was definitely not
a guarantee. I think people were running him off as
early as two thousand and seven, and boy were we
lucky to get so so much longer. With him longer
than I ever thought, So I'm really ultimately grateful for that.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
Well well said. I think for me, Rafa's ability to
convince even the greatest hater of his greatness is one
of his biggest strengths, and he did that many a
time across the board. And he was just a I
mean box office, you got what you paid for, which
(54:54):
is not something you could say every day in the
world of sports. So we're going to miss the guy.
Will have the memories, will have the you two clips
for sure of his exploits. But that is it for
us and this week's open Era. We've got a couple
episodes left. We'll do a year end award, season show
Best doper Best potentially on the docket, and Bush and
(55:20):
I will do a final fire side chat. But last
couple episodes. Pre thanks so much for joining us over
the years. Loved having you on, loved having you in
the discord as well, just to blast to contend us
with you.
Speaker 2 (55:35):
Yeah, thank you guys for holding space. Has been really
popular on the internet this week, But thank you guys
for holding space for all types of tennis conversations, whether
it's about the shop making and the serves, or also
the broader political conversations and sports conversations.
Speaker 3 (55:51):
There needs to be room for all.
Speaker 2 (55:52):
Of it, and I'll miss having you guys opening up
that space for all of us.
Speaker 3 (55:57):
So appreciate everything guys, you guys have done. And on
the pond.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
Bush, thank you, sir, Thank you for putting together this
recording by organizing a time with pri As. I forgot
what times and I was in. But do you have
a final message before I sign off?
Speaker 5 (56:16):
I do not.
Speaker 4 (56:17):
I'm final two weeks. I don't know what I'm going
to be liking the last recording. I haven't figured that
out yet. I don't know what kind of emotions are
going to be going through me.
Speaker 2 (56:26):
You can take some inspiration from Rafa, like some light
light tearing up, get a little bit stumbling over your words,
but not like a full Roger song.
Speaker 1 (56:34):
I have already asked Talon Greeks for if he will
zum in with us, just.
Speaker 2 (56:39):
So he can be with us, not Bote.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
I mean Votage. She's busy, we know, but okay, well
you went there for producer Dylan on the ones and twos.
Who's a legend to jump on short notice with us?
Thank you so much, our friend, and thank you so
much for listening. We'll talk to you soon, not sure exactly.
We'll talk to you soon with our year end Award
(57:04):
Show episode. Thanks for listening to open Era, Take care,
Hello, and welcome to the Open Air Podcast. My name
is de Bank Desai, and this week Simon and I
are joined by a good friend of the show. She's
been a guest many times throughout the years, Prianca Dobson.
Welcome back.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Frianca, we had to bring you back. Obviously Open Air
closing up shop, so we wanted to bring our favorite
guests back. But also the main reason that we wanted
to talk with you is because Rafael Nadal has of
course retired. Bush and I spoke about this. Bush. First
of all, how are you? I realize I have not
introduced you yet.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Oh it's okay, we've already done how many episodes together?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yeah? Of your voice. Frankly, I'm sick of your voice.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
But that's the reason I was ending, all right. Yeah, well,
I'm coming off the back of a pretty heavy flu.
I think it's still interfering with my voice somewhat, but
we'll make it through. It's adding more, adding more gravitas
to it. Let's go with that.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
You said at least ten years older, So I mean
that's that's pretty cool. So, yeah, we wanted to talk
Rafa and we will his career, the highs the lowest.
We wanted to talk Rafa as well, with someone who
I think that was a fan of the truest sense,
much like I think we were of Roger, and I
(01:36):
think that kind of exkews how we perceive athletes or
maybe changes what we consider to be their biggest and
greatest moments or maybe their lowest moments. I think that
that's definitely interesting and we'll unpack that. But first, it's
a sign, my friends, that we should get out of
the tennis podcast game, because the sport is going to hell.
(01:56):
Every single week there is more bad news. I gotta
Google alert for one Martin del Potrow doing an interview. Goddamn,
I wish I didn't open that. JMDP is hurting all
over It's all extremely bad. He's going to do an
exhibition with Novak though, and one azaries. So that was sad.
But obviously the bigger news Prianca Stefano, Cicipas and Plavadosa
(02:21):
in Iceland.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
With you with Me with Me, Yeah, that was definitely
the big news that dropped this weekend that they do
go on vacation and they happened to be in Iceland
along at the same time I was I and I
saw them and that's the only thing going on in
Tennis right now is that Palla and stuff. So thebasco
on vacation now?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Is this fair to say that Iceland has become a
normy vacation destination, as in people like us are like, yes,
let's go there, because I mean there's a lot of advertising.
I think it seems like a pretty distant place for
the masses to go. But I'm a bit surprised that
the glitterati, if the ATP and WTA would be there.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Is that wrong? No? I think it had a very
because it's from the east coast of the US. In
like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, people discovered it was only
like a five hour flight to feel like that you
were on another planet. And I think the rise of
like social media and all that has only made Iceland
like more popular. Like as soon as you could be
like oh am I in the movie Interstellar or am
(03:24):
I on Earth? People definitely fled and flocked there. So
there were it was like very it's a wellow up
machine out there, like tourist wise, they know exactly what
they're doing, So I would I wasn't one hundred percent surprise.
I think just of all of the vacation spots and
all of the hotels like in the world in the
exact moment, to almost run face first into the two
(03:45):
of them, like with my eggs from breakfast was experience.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
It's rare that you run into a couple that you've
seen on TikTok several times.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
In real life, and everyone's always so much taller than
you think they are, right, Like, I've seen them both
play tennis. But when they're next to you and like
the coffee line, you know, getting their eggs, Benedict, You're like, oh,
who are these like super tall, fit, athletic, good looking people. Oh,
they're people that I look.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
At and watch and have opinions on all the time.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
So yeah, it was they basically they look like the
characters some avatar basically compared to the rest of us,
like just like ten feet tall Navvi super athletes.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yep, exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
That's the last Avatar reference I'll make today. But I
have buried the big big news obviously Fontech joining Janick
Sinner in a bad way. He gu's not the world
number one anymore, but she is now part of the
club that has been suspended for testing positive for a
(04:46):
band substance. This one is called trematzidine, which, as Luke
helpfully mentioned on Discord, is quite close to xenadine Sidan's
last name. It's apparently a heart medication known as TMZ
which again a bit on the nose considering our dire
times these days. But Ega failed this out of competition
(05:07):
test in August. She formally admitted the antidoping role violation
on Wednesday and accepted her penalty. She missed the buzz
To tournaments from September twelfth to October fourth. I think
they were the Korean Open, the China Open, the Muhan Open.
At the time, she said she was missing it for
personal reasons. That's a whole lot different than missing it
(05:29):
because I failed a doping test. But I digress. Ega
twenty three years old, calling the experience the worst of
her life. Quote. In the last two and a half months,
I was subject to strict itia proceedings which confirmed my innocence,
the only positive doping tests in my career, showing unbelievably
low level of a banned substance I've never heard about before.
(05:51):
Put everything I've worked so hard for my entire life
into question. So friends, I mean imediate reactions when we
see this news. I think mine was, oh god, quite
sinking of the stomach, feeling bush. I wonder how you feel.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
What a time to be a tennis fan. What a
time to be at the head of the ATP and
the WTA as well. What a strange end of the
year having both the word noumber ones on the respective
tours failed hoping tests. And if you were really wanting
to draw the similarities, there's actually quite a lot of
similarities between Johnick Center and Igasiontek as well, both buying
(06:32):
medication that can be purchased over the counter in their
home countries, which have different levels of legality in different
parts of the world. They both managed to successfully challenge
the mandatory suspension that came out. They both had the
resources to manage to do that as well, and they
(06:54):
both managed to keep this quiet until the news eventually
came out of when the time perd it expired on it.
I think my thoughts are roughly the same as Janick
Sinner here. I don't think they can be much.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
I feel like I feel like I am somewhat of
a hypocrite if I say anything differently here than what
I said to the way that Janick Sinner was treated,
And I've said a million times in this podcast. And
I also accept that there is flack that comes with it.
Athletes dope, people in tennis dope. Sometimes the best players
in the world dub and maybe we just have to
(07:34):
understand that fact sometimes. I also recognize that's probably harsh.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's fair. Pre what are
you about you?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Well, first, I was sure about all the editors, are
sure that all these editors are so mad that EGA
is not still number one, so that they can very
neatly be like the two number ones this year up
and are an assemble, like is out there somewhere being like,
excuse me, I am number one right at the minute.
But I feel like I I think I'm coming to
(08:02):
the same conclusion as Bush.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
I don't know, my worldview.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Has become quite cynical lately. Who knows why, No, no
actual reason why. But I'm like this, what is all
these number one players walking around with like contaminated substances
all the time? Like, are all of our supplements and
vitamins just all contaminated and nobody knows and everyone's just take.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
A shitload of melatonin and my tennis game has gotten
worse over Yeah, just saying so I don't know, I
don't know what dosed she's.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Getting, And like I it sounds like they both follow
the rules, but the whole like not being able to
be able to do it in private, Like I know
that there are some weights ways that that is probably
good for her and mentally and like to not have the.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Press and the media all over her, but for.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
It to have this all be able to happen like
behind the scenes, I think also just adds to like
the obfuscation and the special treatment, even though when you
do more reading, neither of them apparently got special treatment.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
But there's no denying that. You can't that you know.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
The resources that they have must have contributed to how
they were able to see those through now big time.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
And I think like the quotes after this, like I
saw Karen Morehouse, the ITIA chief executive, be like, well,
I don't think there's no one should be concerned about this.
I think she says, quote, I don't think this is
a cause for concern for tennis fans. The fact that
we're being clearly open, transparent. It shows the breadth and
depth of our anti doping program. I think that is.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
True.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
But I also I do not compare this to Simona
Hallip's case as one for one, because I think it
is different and the levels and the drug are different.
And from the preliminary reading I've done of various Reddit
doctors and things like that, and it does seem like
this was quite a low low do so maybe it's
(10:01):
not in that that halop realm. But then I also
see that TMZ is that the drug at the center
of a case involving twenty three Chinese swimmers who remained
eligible for the Tokyo Olympics' spite testing positive for this
that Russian figure skater Camilla Valieva, who I think her
case just got settled a few months ago by CASS.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
So like, the.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Drug is not some random thing that you you randomly
stumble upon and it's like whoops. But the level that
IgA had was so low that you you want to
give the benefits of the doubt. But to Simona ALP's point,
how long did Simona Hallup wait for these decisions to
go down right without this shield that was given to
Sitar and Fiontek, and I think that difference it's worth examining.
(10:49):
I don't think the cases are the same, but I
do think this is a really good example of how
tennis I think exemplifies the wider world, because you clearly
have different rules for different people based on their status
and stature within the game, and this is another example
of that.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
Well, I think there's two points as well that I
would I would add to this. Number one is, if
you do take the point that many top professional athletes
are doping, I should you know. I'll put a carryat
to that if you take the point if you take
my previous point about how people don't within the sport
(11:28):
of tennis, it is somewhat surprising that has taken this
long for several hyper power players to be found or
have been caught using this methodology, and it does raise
the question of why has it taken this long and
who else is doing it. Definitely there's a second part
of this as well, which is that in the murky
(11:51):
world of supplements and wellness and whatever you want to
throw in that buzzword, the kind of like RFK junior,
Facebook mum, like the stuff that is like not regulated
around the world and has sort of given rise to
(12:11):
a multi multi billion dollar industry. Is that it does
not surprise me that some of these defenses largely fall
around alternative medicine or alternative treatments that can be used
to mask or point the eye in a different direction.
And I wonder whether or not there's a conversation around
(12:32):
how healthcare and drugs more broadly are administered and considered
perhaps worldwide. You know, aware that these are very broad
topics and that we don't have time to get into them.
I want to prey, like, are you surprised that it's
taken this long to have high profile athletes in the
(12:53):
sport of test positive, you know, against obviously the backdrop
of Haleben. I know there's been a couple of others
that have been you know, one and one doubles FLA
for example, But what is your assessment of this case
and like how long it's taken for whether it's whether
it's surprising that it's taken this long.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Again, it feels like I am not where none of
us have ever had all the information right. It seems
like testing technology has gotten better, but it also seems
like people have gotten shiftier or been able to get
around it. Like theoretically, if you were going to dope,
the way and the story that this particular situation came
(13:33):
through or the way that it's described like sounds like
a great way to be, Like, how do I dope.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Without getting caught? Now, I'm not accusing anyone of that.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
It seems very clear that most parties here seem you know,
she's serving the suspension, to be serving it during the
off season. Is that really a suspension? You know, A
question for another time. But you know, maybe the technology
is getting better, maybe the amount of drugs is changing.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Maybe the people weren't as into their.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Health and nutrition early, Like That's something I've.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Been thinking about like this, I feel like Djokovic started
this whole thing of like being so in tune with
your health that now all these top players have these
huge teams and medications and supplements, and I feel like
there used to be and Andy Murray type of, Hey,
I don't take anything over the counter because I don't
want to be caught with anything. So maybe it's just
in the rise kind of what you were saying Bush
(14:22):
like concurrent with the rise of like wellness as a
billion dollar industry is also the rise of you know,
all these different types of things that could be affecting performance,
and it's such a weird thing to talk about in
the midst of the broader you know, tennis washing, sports washing,
but also for me, like women's sports and transports and
biological advantages and that really icky conversation. So when we
(14:43):
talk about conversations about like resources and advantages and like
vitamins and hormones, like, it all just starts to get
really icky, and I think also contributes to the reaction
to these stories just being more of like, I guess
everyone's doing it, so here we are.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
I do enjoy how once this happens you have to
dump your coaching staff into the middle of the ocean,
never to return again, Like you have to basically delete
their phone number from your phone and never speaks to
them again. Because during this I think IgA also announced
the coaching change that makes a little more sense now,
(15:20):
perhaps if you want to read into things, I think
we saw similar with the Annik as well. This is
a huge deal. But also I will say working in
sports as my day job didn't break through in a
huge way in my neck of the Woods, and I
don't know if that's good or bad, to be honest, Like,
(15:44):
is it bad that someone who we consider to be
the one of the phases of the game testing positive
didn't exactly move the needle. Maybe it's because the season
is over, Maybe because it's the band was so short.
Maybe it's because she already served it. Like, I don't know, Oh, Bush,
I'm part of me thinks it's a bad sign. You
know that A the top people are getting busted for doping,
(16:06):
and then b it's like, well, huh, Like I guess
so that maybe that is as much of a surprise
as we've got.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
I think I would I would say in addition to that,
I think it's by design. Is it not that it
didn't break through? Is that if you want to follow
this through to the you know, conclusion of it and
how you do this as a PR team, is that
you'd want the news to come out after the test
had happened, after the suspension had been served, after the
matches has been played, in a dead period of the season,
(16:34):
when you know everything's wrapped up and no eyes are
on the spot. This feels like again, I think we
use the same phrasing for a sinate, didn't it. They
played a blinder of when you want to drop the news,
if you want to look at some really good pr
this is a pretty good one as well.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Can I say that dropping the same move weeks after
the first one the audacity that the idea is like,
you know what we are, We're good, We're going We're
going to run this playbook identically.
Speaker 5 (17:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Do you guys think Shriontek drafted off of how Sinner's
case has gone out and played out throughout the media,
because even he is being super embraced even though he's
technically still under appeal, right, Like somebody could come I
think cast could come out tomorrow and be like just
kidding his band for one to two years because he
has to take responsibility for his team. But I feel
like they really benefited from how much everyone just kind
(17:23):
of accepted what had already happened to him, and Ego
was like me too.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yeah, I think that's a good point. And to Simon's
point as well, like that's how that's how you win
these things. I think that's why some of these pleasures
so pissed, like people like Chappo or like what the
hell is going on? Like why didn't we know about this?
You would think as well, with tennis being so in
seiler and like the drama that we see happen week
(17:50):
to week on the courts, were their whispers going around
when Ego is missing these events?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
You know?
Speaker 1 (17:55):
And she was citing different reasons when we see the
beef on court sometime. Is there anything to you that?
Probably not? But it's another point for me is that
you know, the networks won't really mention this that much
to an extent. I mean, they talked about Yannix thing
for like ten minutes in New York and then he
went on to win the thing. And another way, you
(18:17):
could almost use this to build on stuff if you
wanted to play into that drama aspect and that entertainment
reality TV aspect. The problem is you can't because then
you open the door to Pandora's box about oh wait,
is our game tainted as fuck?
Speaker 4 (18:29):
So well, I think the pr strategy here is doubt,
is it not. It's to create a sense of illegitimacy
in either the organization that's doing the testing or the
positive test result as a whole. Right, So it's coming
up with an excuse which sounds plausible to the wider public,
and it's having that it's both doubt in the organization
(18:49):
in the test, and then moving the sort of pivot point,
the inflection point, from the moment that it happens to
a later point in time so that you don't have
like the Ice World pointing on the individual. Pretty pretty
damn effective, I have to say, because.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
It's worked well said, Okay, anything else folks on this
before we go to RAFA. The reason we're here today.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
I think there's a point in here broadly about how
just sad this is for the sport of tennis. And
not to be too like overully dramatic about it, but
it's not. It's not a positive reflection on the sport.
I don't think that both of your kind World number
two annual World number one are under not I would
(19:33):
say beyond a cloud of uncertainty in regards to their
their influence on performance enhancing drugs. I think it's just
a it's a bad look for the sport, and I
think it also just it reinforces there's a lot of
icky stuff going on in the sport of tennis that
has just made it a bit of a tough year
to swallow.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
More broadly, Yeah, I think it's just anytime the quote
unquote rules come into so if you're getting in the
way of someone's enjoyment of sports. I felt the same
way in the Olympics with you know, calls and overturned judgments,
like as soon as the rules come into play, as
they should be being held accountable. You know, we should
(20:14):
want our institutions to be holding folks accountable even when
they break the rules. But it does, as I think
the technical term we keep talking about is ichy. It
makes it less fun to watch, It makes it less
fun to get joy out of. It makes it less
of an escape if from you know, the corruption of
the world, if everything else that you watch for fun
is also kind of tainted with some of this, So
(20:35):
I totally agree with you. It adds to some sadness,
some melancholy and the kind of sad overall vibe of
the changing of the guard. Not to segue into inter
rafa that way, but it does feel like the end
of an era in some ways, and the end of
an open era potentially.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
It's well said, Uh yeah, the other of you guys,
you guys dailed it, and you sadness was the main
feeling and curiosity of how this scampit was played again
now this masterful camp it was was played again, and
to see what, if any further fallout will be. But yeah,
(21:15):
I think the overall vibe was not again and this
has been a tough year to follow this sport. But
when we come back, we're going to talk about Rafa.
We'll go through our favorite Nadal moments. We'll also go
through I think some of the reaction. I'm curious what
you guys think about, maybe the farewell itself, the low
key nature of it, and Nadal's future all of that
(21:38):
coming up next on Open Era. Welcome back to the
Open Air Podcast. We've talked about it at length, so
has the rest of the tennis world. Rafael Nadal is
no longer competing on the ATP. He said goodbye to
(22:00):
the tennis world at Davis Cup. It was the place
where he introduced himself, so that felt just right. We've
talked enough about it, though, pre I'm curious, as a
Rapas super fan, what's it been like in a couple
of ways, because I think over the last two years,
I want to say, we've been having this convo probably
more we had it on the discord. We've had it
(22:23):
after big moments, after great moments, after sad moments. But
I think when it did actually come, the sadness that
I felt surprised me. But I'm curious where you were at.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
So I am notoriously bad at the endings of things.
It's probably some like deep seated fear of death or something.
I don't know, but it's like it took me a
really long time to watch the season finale of Gilmore Girls,
like one of my favorite shows, because I couldn't accept
that it was ending. And to the same degree, I
actually have not watched the retirement ceremony in its entirety
(22:59):
because I also have come to this conclusion I think
two years ago, Like in my head, he's been retired
since he withdrew from Wimbledon that one time. I think
everything else he's done since then, you know, showing up
for Rogers farewell at the Labor Cup, which I think
was after that, right, I'm not mixing up timing the Olympics,
(23:20):
Nadal Karaz even you know, playing Vera of this, like
his last French Open being against Verav and losing in
the first round, and like having that back to back,
never having lost a clay match back to back, wrecord
broken on his very last French Open match, Like it
just didn't seem right to me, so all to say,
(23:42):
you know, I think everyone wants a serena type of
exit where like you have flashes of that brilliance, you
beat the world number two, you get glitter, you get
Oprah whatever it is, and not that saying that I
needed that, because I also don't think Grafa wanted that.
He was very clearly didn't want anything at the Friend
He didn't even really want something here. I think I
(24:03):
like have come to terms with it and it's just
like a melancholy that has been lasting I think over
the last two years.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
To be honest, I think that one of the most
interesting reactions for me are people who were not mad.
But maybe we're questioning why there wasn't like a bigger
ceremony at the Davis Cup. And I think the the
the i TF President David Haggerty's like listen, like we
followed raphis lead like he didn't want to do anything crazy,
(24:31):
and I think Felicie Lopez said something similar. But to
me that that kind of made this a little more
genuine in the sense that, like I as much as
I love the Labor Cup and God, that Ellie Goulding
song still makes me try to this day, I did
feel like it everything with the Labor Cup, like it's
(24:51):
a marketing thing, it's a barely a tennis thing, but
like it didn't feel as authentic as as you would
have liked. And I know, whenever the Davis Cup is
now things to sure IPK and Friends is definitely not
what it once was. But to have this kind of
happen after a loss to Netherlands in the quarterfinals of
the Davis Cup, that's tennis right Like that, that to
(25:14):
me is like the one of the better ways to
go out if you're someone like raphin it all. And
to have people like Roger and Novak and Serena Andy
send those messages but they're not there because they know
who wants to be in Malacho watching talent Greeks sport
versus Carlos Aakraz in November. Like I think there's something
to that where it's like this was a tennis heads
(25:36):
farewell in a way. Bush, I don't know, Am I
am I crazier?
Speaker 4 (25:39):
No, I think you're right, and I think it's also good.
It's a good comparison point because like this idea, in
this notion that like sponsors and the event would not
want to put on a massive ceremony for you know,
the greatest Spanish athlete of all time and Hammon up
to the nth degree is fascical to me, Like everyone
wants that. The only person who probably didn't want that
(26:01):
is Rafael Nadal. So I think the comparison point of
the Labor Cup is really kind of fascinating because yes,
it's a marketing event, and I think the thing that
stands out for Vederer's retirement is a sincere moment of
him and Rafael Nadal against the backdrop of a very
insincere event, of a complete marketing event. They can flip
(26:23):
that in contrast to this. The Davis Cup, for all
of its faults and for all of the things that
we can say about it, you are absolutely correct. You
are playing botic vander zanderschulp in.
Speaker 5 (26:36):
No.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
We love who we love, people who we love talent Grish.
We we love this man.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
This is not a denigration, no slight to those athletes
at all, people who we love. But this was purely
tennis related. This was a dude who wanted to go
ahead and compete for his country in a competition that
he very much appreciated, supported and wanted to do well
in represent his country and end his care on his back.
(27:01):
That is something that is so laudable and I think
looks so much better in comparison to what we got
at the lay of a cup. And you know, again
hands up with someone. I love that moment at the
lay of a cup. But this one, again, I've said
so many times and I apologize. It just felt right
for the man to get this sign off. It felt
like it was very, very very sincere and very honest.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah, I think I didn't. Again, I didn't watch it
front to back. I saw some clips on social media
and I was like, again, I think his speech after
the twenty twenty two French Open win was kind of
his retirement speech. I think for me, his torch bearing
moment at the Olympic opening ceremony in Paris, I think
that was a really nice grace note on his career
and the impact that he's had on the world of sport.
(27:45):
Like I think he's had some of these, but to
have him be retiring like playing for Spain, the entire
The focus of the event was not on him. The
focus was on the country, was on the team. You know,
it felt very true to what he's always been about
with a career, with his career, which is like Busha's.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
Saying, like the tennis.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
And not to say that feder was not about the tennis,
but Feeder also took his role as a statesman of
this sport, I think very seriously, as someone who could
publicize it and bring that grace and that energy and
that worldwide popularity.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Like I think he really embraced that role as the
elder statesman of the sport. Whereas Rafa he was already a.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
You know, an upstart, a competitor when he and a
disruptor rather when he came in, And so why wouldn't
he also disrupt the way that he says goodbye?
Speaker 5 (28:30):
Right?
Speaker 2 (28:30):
I almost wish that he did the Venus and never
really retired altogether and just showed up where he wanted to.
But clearly, you know, he's been in pain for so long,
and we kept asking him, you know, we all demanded
of him like dude, when are you going.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
To call it?
Speaker 2 (28:44):
And so he finally gave us an answer. So why
wouldn't it be super muted, given that it's not even
probably how he wanted to end it either.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
To be honest, I think if you if you are
making the movie of Raphael Nadal's career or the biopic
of it, I think his career ends in that French
Shope the speech in two thousand and two. I think
the rest of it is sort of an epilogue to it,
like there's been some there, some moments, but it's clearly
not showing him losing in round one in twenty twenty
four to Alexander Zverev. And I think we don't always
(29:15):
get the fairy tale sign off that we wanted, even
though I think we were calling it live or in
that discord that's it, like it has to be here.
Twenty twenty two. You just dummied caspar Rude. You've just
loved caspar Rude, bageled him in the.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Final CASTE wanted him to win that French open. Casper
Rude was like, please, sir, take the titles.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Angles shattering the way it did felt like another sign
of some sort that this was meant to be who
I Yeah, I think the movie. The movie starts with
that torch bearing scene at the Olympics and then it
(29:57):
rewinds and it reverses. That's why screenplay idea and I
guess I'm going burnow for the actor who's playing him
to buy up.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
You gotta know who you guys think, Sure, let's go
with that.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
That's a great choice.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
It's better than whatever acting capability. And a doll showed
in that Shakira music video, which I don't know why
wasn't included in this retrospective doc is something.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
We had to talk about.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
But for me, it's an important moment. Phantom.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I saw a very Ai something to add with him
and Roger with something in the mountains. I don't know
what brand it was.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Yeah, they were in the Dolomites, just being like.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Was that Ai or was that real? Because if it
was real, I'm blessed, I'm less disturbed.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
But yeah, oh it was real. It was real.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
It was like, we're about to go retire with our
fancy luggage on our fancy vacations. Please join us.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
I think of it all the goods. Raff is going
to sell us to us now. I can't wait. Okay,
So I wanted to I wanted to kind of end
or like kind of close on this kind of bigger
topic of our memories of Rafa and kind of the
standouts or those those moments that left you maybe convinced
(31:15):
as a I'm a fan, I'm a zealot, I'm going
to pack this guy to the end, or a moment
that left you in ah or a moment that left
you sad as hell, and I'm not sure if you're
going to recover. And I was going through some listicles
of Rafa's matches and I thought the one the ATP
put together was good because it kind of goes through
(31:37):
some of the ones that maybe don't get enough credit
and like or maybe the tournaments that don't get enough credit,
like two thousand and five Madrid, but pre maybe do
you have an adull match that for you is kind
of like quintessential Rafa, who was that.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Very first French Open in two thousand and five when
he beat Federer in the semi final. I know I
should have prepped and been sure because I can picture
the image so clearly in my head that I'm like
and that.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
I'm mixing up probably when it was, but it was
when he beat Feedder and just was so humble about
it and at.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
That point, you know, I was in my preteens and
I was just tired of the same guy winning all
the time, especially because Federer made it look so easy,
which I understand is what Federer fans like loved about him.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
But I think the combination of Rafael like not making
it look easy, like you could see how hard he
was trying from the very beginning, but also executing, and
then also that he was a disruptor and we weren't
just going to see the same guy win all the time.
It was all really endearing for me. And then actually
the super endearing thing was when he won the French
Open finally that year and he thanked the ball boys
(32:48):
in his speech because he was so like he didn't
even know what to say, like what a winner is
supposed to say in these types of things, And he
looked around in his broken English and was like and
the ball boys, you guys were all super helpful.
Speaker 6 (32:59):
And I'm like, who's this like teenage kid who just
wants to play tennis and just like arrived on the
world stage and he's nice and humble, but man, he
is like just such a fierce.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Competitor to watch. I was like mesmerized from the beginning.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Oh that's that's a great choice, and like, that's that's
peak RAPHI is coming to ruin my life era in
shorts that I was like, what's going on with these
shorts like the Pirate, the Pirate asthetic, the sleeveless stuff,
(33:35):
and it's funny now like looking back, I feel like
an asshole for hating him as much as I did,
because it doesn't make any sense. He's literally a teenager
doing things that had not been done. I get someone,
like you said, who had like this, who had already
built quickly I would say Relt very quickly, had built
an aura of almost invincibility. So for the for the
(33:56):
sport itself, god did they need that. But personally Bush
I wanted this guy out of the pain. He was
ruining everything. How did you feel?
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (34:05):
I think the question on what a single match defines
his career is so challenging, and I think Preeze right
like that. I think that is an encapsulation of who
he was, like the fenom that he was. I think
that so often is circled around the dial of what,
you know, what an unbelievable specimen he was going into
(34:26):
that French open, what a phenom. He was his ability
to do things on a clay court that I think
many people had never seen before. All those things are accurate,
I think I would draw. I don't think I could
do his career in one match. And the only reason
I say that is because it's it's twenty one years
long his career and he's such a He is the
(34:48):
definition of an evolution of a tennis player because grows
up on a clay court. Is this for all we
talk about him being like, you know, the physical specimen.
Admittedly I just did refer to it. The player that
he is now that he won in twenty twenty two.
He is stockier, he is burlier. He is like a
full grown, you know man. But he's also much chunkier,
(35:09):
like much much bigger, and physically he's changed significantly. He
goes from if you want to use the boxing analogy,
he goes from a cruiserweight to a heavyweight. And people
don't think about rapping now. Doubt that way. But if
you look at him in twenty twenty two, he's a big,
big dude. He's imposing. He is you know, the physicality
is something different. It's not used for the sort of
(35:30):
twitch muscle movement at the back of the court defensively
in that you see in his first French Open. It's imposing,
it's putting his will on matches and using the strength
that he has. So I think the evolution I would
probably show. I would show him winning a French Open,
and then I would show it in comparison to him
(35:51):
getting dummied at various different stages on different surfaces, and
then show him winning that Grand Slam like two years afterwards.
I think that's what I would do because for every
for every dominant performance that there was on clay, there
was him losing to Fernando Gonzales in a quarter final
at the Australian Open. There was him, you know, getting
(36:12):
absolutely dummied like let's lose sight of it by like
Roger Feedder in a French Open final. For the first
few years there was him. He got annihilated by Andy
Roddick when he first started playing on the hard courts
at the US Open, and then to come to have
the career that he did, to be able to make
the strides that he did on those surfaces, I think
(36:33):
that's the representation he Yeah, he's always been a clay
court player. Like he's always been the best clay court
player ever, I think, but he's never been the best
tennis player on those of the surfaces until he was.
He had to evolve to get there. And I think
that's the story of his career.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
That's really well said. And I think that's why I
want to choose for the impossible task I give it us.
I want to choose the twenty twenty two Australian Open final,
like one final, one magic dose of Rafa, because man,
I think I was writing something on that one and
I had a literal full it was done, it was done,
(37:10):
ready to go. I had written this man off several
times before, but I was smart enough even in twenty
twenty two to say, let's wait, but on a hard court.
To your point, Simon, they get someone like med who,
I mean, to his credit, had this kind of idea
about him that he was not scared of playing the greats.
(37:31):
I thought that was one of the more spectacular swarning
things I've ever seen in my life. Down two three,
l forty in the third set to come all the
way back. See him at the end of that match
as well, kind of got a good read. I think
of when the end was coming. He got the next
(37:52):
slam at the French Open, but that was the last one,
And if you look at his his timeline, it's kind
of remarkable, like he had missed the last he had
missed the US Open, he had missed Wimbledon, he did
not win the French Open in twenty twenty one. I
think to come to the Australian Open and went in
the way he did it was just a brilliant reminder
(38:15):
of what an incredible athlete this guy is. Because to
say that he willed himself into becoming an all court genius,
I think it's fair bush like it was not something
he was blessed with right away, and we got to
see it kind of develop against the backdrop of someone
who dealt with a horrible myriad of injuries pre Like
(38:35):
I think the other thing I wanted to ask you
about is having someone as your favorite, or have someone
you back to the to the end, seeing them go
through just the injury trials and tribulations that they went through.
Like I think the other part about Ralf is mentally
how strong you got to be to come back from
(38:56):
career defying derailments that seemed to happen every couple of years.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yeah, I think I would pick the twenty twenty two
Australian Open final as a maybe the Nadeiro of Nadal
matches for similar reasons, dev because of the immense amount
of like everything that builds up to that, including his
entire career up until then, like knowing the highs that
he had gotten to, and the fact that he was
(39:23):
playing on house money.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
You know, I think we were all in the discord
together like watching that, watching that match, being like sure, maybe, sure,
maybe he's going to pull it off. But one of
the reasons that that match stands out to me so
much is because one of my core Nadal matches was
an adoll fan is actually the twenty seventeen final loss
to Federer. As much as I think about his wins,
I also think.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
About his losses and how he comes back from that
and how he comes back from that in the moment,
and truly, you know, I wanted to shout out Gary
Nathan's piece and the Defector about Nadal also a Federer guy,
I think from the beginning, also someone who him to
get out of the way with his pirate pants. But
you know, he spakes very eloquently a piece about how
(40:06):
watching Rafa around that time, just put one foot in
front of the other and like, play through the pain,
be really present, not take any moment for granted, not
take any point for granted. You know, he even says afterwards,
like I don't think I'm going to win these matches.
I just you know, play the next point in front
of me. And that's what he did when he was
a teenager playing Fetterer in two thousand and five. That's
(40:26):
what he's been doing from the very beginning all the
way until the very end of twenty twenty two, is
putting one foot in front of the other and trying
his best and trying to be present in every moment.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
And for me at that time in my life, you know,
I was going through some grief.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
And it was really inspiring. You know. Yeah, this is
a sport of tennis, that's the sport I used as
an escape. But it was it was a huge source
of inspiration to me to be like, you know, I
can just put one foot in front of the other.
I can say, you know, the only way out is through,
and the only way to move forward is to just
play the next point.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
You know, Gary talks about.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
This in his piece and it really resonated with me,
and it still resonates me with me now, and it's
one of the reasons why Nadal is always going to
be an athlete I admire, even if he sinks into
the sportswa Washing, Saudi six Kings Slam, World of Tennis.
You know, that kind of perseverance, that kind of grit,
it's really special and it's really inspiring. And even Daniel Medvedev,
(41:19):
someone who I wanted to win that title because I
wanted in changing of the guard even then I didn't.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
Want Jokovic to keep winning.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
It's that I'm consistent with. But to see Nadal just
again fight till the very, very, very very end is
something that's really going to stay with me for a
long time.
Speaker 4 (41:35):
I think just to pick up on that point as well,
is that on that on that sort of theme of
resilience and change and evolution, like just to say yes,
watch his watch his win in twenty twenty two at
the Australian Open, and then go back and watch him
in two thousand and five at the French Open in
his first Grand Slam, of how different of a player
(41:57):
he is. And I think there's so many intro lessons
to take, you know, not just from the resilience of
the physicality of sort of and the mental side of
that he showed to come back, but also of how
different You're not the same person that you were when
you're eighteen that you are when you're thirty six, and
(42:18):
you might have to play slightly differently, and you might
have different strengths and different weaknesses, but you can still
achieve great things. They might be different. It just so
happens that this is a sport where you know you're
only doing one thing, you're hitting a ball over the net,
but there are a nuances in it right in terms
of how you're winning points, about how you're moving around
the space. This is such a different athlete, and I
(42:40):
think that's so laudable in a time period where specialization
is so rampant. You see it in so many different sports.
Where you see one player who's encouraged to do one
thing their entire career. That's not Raphie an Adull. It
really isn't. And I think that's perhaps one of the
biggest compliments that I can pay to him.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
It's wild, like I'm just looking back at like some
of the also the characters involved, like the people who
like Juan Carlos Ferrero probably should have played Roddick in
that in that Davis Cup two thousand and four final.
But someone makes a change. I think Jordy Rssay makes
(43:18):
a change, a controversial change, and picks Na Doll like
there's there's people along the way who maybe knew sooner
than we did, and I think Tony di Doll is
cheap among them. I loved this quote. It was like,
I'm just glad people know he's a good person. It
was like the classic Tony Dedalote chapter closing quote on
(43:38):
his on his nephew. But yeah, I took this stroll
down memory lane and maybe unsurprisingly got emotional looking at
these moments and also thankful that I'm able to look
on them differently now because I think, and I still
do this today, but fandom warps and skews how you
absorb things and how you understand them. And I think,
(43:59):
obviously back the day, I did not have the same
appreciation for Rafa that I do now, and then I
did as I as I began to develop as a
as a person and I think as a fan and
being able to understand the levels to this and understand
how much he offered to the game and how how
it can be good to have differing varieties in style,
(44:20):
because I think the other thing is that the contrast
between him and Fed was pretty ridiculous, Like literally they
played with different hands, but like it was almost like
they were two examples of the inverse. And I think
that that added to the to the mystique in the
lore of this rivalry. And then of course Snovak coming
along and the Big Three, et cetera. But maybe we'll
(44:43):
end here. I mentioned Ega and the news not breaking
through as much as you would think, but obviously the
Rafa stuff did, and I think you saw everyone come
out and have their trip. I think Fence's classic Fed
like very nerdy and like god who wrote this, but
(45:04):
also daring. You had Novaks like Novak clearly is like
in his Aaron Rodgers. I can see mortality e mode
where he's like, ah, the future, it scares me. But
you had like Serena and you had Pep Guardiola. I
think Rafa went to go see Man City to save
them because they're in shambles currently. Like I'm curious if
(45:25):
there was like a reaction for you guys that maybe
hit the hardest for you, Like, was there something that
kind of just like was like, oh, like you saw
that and it was it was something that made you
feel good.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
Pre I actually think it was really sweet how emotional
Carlos Alcaraz was not to think through like the changing
of the guard I think for me. With Roger and
Annie Murray and Serena all retiring fairly recently, we've gotten
this sort of like echo chamber of greats being like
(45:57):
you were also great. I in fact was great, but
you also were great, and it wasn't so great to
be great. But to see Carlos see someone that he
grew up idolizing and get the chance for this guy
to be around long enough for him to play alongside him,
just like the total admiration and respect I think was
really moving and just really brought into relief how long
(46:21):
his career was, Like there's a reason we can't the
one match we're all picking is also very recent because
he's been playing for so long and he's inspired generations
of folks and so EGA included right Egan and Carlos
are you know and casperude as we've all mentioned, whole
Dominic team all folks that have drafted off the we
off of school in one way or another, whether officially
(46:43):
or not. And so I think that for me was
also like his legacy is going to live on. He's
not dead. I need to stop talking about him. He's dead.
But you know, I think that was really moving for me.
Speaker 4 (46:54):
Yeah, I would take the alcaras one as well. And
I think one of the interesting parts that is perhaps
maybe not talked about as much. Maybe it was at
one point maybe a ledessima time it was, but was
ultimately that this is the man or woman, this is
(47:17):
the this is the best clay court tennis player in history.
There's no one that actually comes anywhere near him. He's
been the best tennis court player or clay court player
since he was I mean, you can make the argument
since he was fifteen. You can also make the argument
maybe that he's been one of the best clay court
players of all time since he was like sixteen, and
(47:38):
then turned into the greatest k club player when he
was seventeen or something. But to be that good on
one surface is such a remarkable achievement that I think
it doesn't get quite the context. It's so the scale
(47:59):
of it is so huge, huge of how much better
he was than everyone else on that one surface that
it's almost become laughable. And I think that's I think
that kind of got summarized a little bit in these reactions,
which is, yes, there is the talk about him as
a human being, and yes as a fighter, and yes
(48:19):
as all of the other things. To be able to
play on these other serfaces and win titles, but to
do this, they'll have the success that he had at
the French Open. And to be that good on one
surface is something that is so mind numbingly difficult that
I think that speaks maybe the loudest out of everything
in terms of how people were talking about him.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
I've always had to defend that, like throughout my Nadal fandom,
especially in the later years, of folks being like, well,
takeaways French Open titles and he only has first, only
has six Grand Slams, first of all, only doing a
lot of work there. Second of all, taking away his
fourteen titles, his fourteen titles where he won seven in
(49:00):
a row, including bageling some of.
Speaker 7 (49:02):
The greatest players of all time, Like talk about wins
that aren't included in some of his lists, they're not
as exciting tennis, but bageling Novak, Djokovic and a Grand
Slam final is not an easy thing to do.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
Let alone, you know, many multiple times.
Speaker 3 (49:16):
So yeah, I totally agree with you.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
There. Only Joey Chessnutt has done anything even further, and
that's not even a real record.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
Let's be real.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
So I mean that alone is historic. It's so superhuman. Bush,
to your point, we can't even give it the flowers
that it deserves.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
It's well put, all right. I think we could leave
it there. I don't know if you guys have some
final thoughts. I think just to touch on that triple
retirement quad retirement note Bush, The departure of these legends
has hit differently. I think seeing them kind of re
(49:52):
emerge in some cases quickly, in some cases not so quickly.
In some cases in shocking circumstances like Andy Murray becoming
Novak's coach. I think we'll see Rafa around the game.
I'm not worried about him falling off the face of
the earth and not being involved in tennis, but how
he is involved is going to be very interesting to me. Obviously,
(50:13):
he's got that academy and he's heavily linked with his
friends in Spain who are now in the power positions.
If you look at within tennis and then the broad
broader game, a lot of rap Is contemporaries are the
people kind of in control now. So I wonder if
he wants to use some of that power that influence
(50:33):
two effect change within the game, because I think we've
talked at length on this spot about things that need
to happen or should happen. But without him it will
be harder. Because I asked this last time, but like,
I think he's top five pre in terms of like
recognition athlete worldwide. He's up there, and you don't replace
(50:54):
people like that in tennis. I don't think it should
be like that one for one. But there's a huge
hole and I'm not I'm not confident we're going to
fill it without without some bullshit in between. So it's
it's sad for me. I know Bush had a kind
of more choous opinion of this all, but I think
I'm I'm viewing rough his departure with more of a
(51:15):
sad lens. But that's also maybe because of what's been
going on the last few weeks and months and years.
Speaker 4 (51:21):
Can we take a guess because I think it would
be interesting of what he's thinking the next ten years
of him, what position he holds, like where he goes
and in the world, because I think this is one
of the more fascinating conversations because it's so wide the
opinion that you hear from people. I think I've said
on the podcast before, I don't see him as as
a full time coach globally at all. I don't see
(51:42):
him being a coach for another player. I don't even
see him being a global figure. I think he's purely
in Spain, like I think he's basically if he's if
he's president of the of the Spanish Tennis Federation, that's
I think that's as far as he goes. I think
he's happy to be in s He's captain of the
Davis Cup team in Spain, that's it. I think that's involvement.
I think he wants to be a part of his academy,
(52:03):
and I think I think he wants to be in Spain,
I spend time with his family. Like, I don't see
him being like a massive touring figure. But I could
be wrong on that one. I'm curious only on both
of your opinions on that one.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
I mean, even though fan fiction would want for him
and Roger to like come out of retirement and Raffa
coaches Carlos and federal coaches Yannick and everyone just has
their little fan fictions of who coaches who. I totally
agree with you, Bush, I think we're not going to
see as much of him as maybe some others. Like
I think Roger is going to be very present in
(52:39):
like the business world on and everything. I think Novak
is probably going to become president of Serbia eventually and.
Speaker 3 (52:46):
He can't let it go. And I think Rafa is
going to be involved in Spain and potentially maybe some
other opportunities. But like if Roger calls him up and
asks him for a favor.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
You know, Rafa, Roger and Novak ending up is in
NATO is the heads of their state or I mean,
it's it's all it's all in play. It's all in play,
all right. Maybe we'll leave it there. I don't know. Well,
let's let's go around the group final thoughts, parting shots.
Rafa edition Bush, what do you got?
Speaker 4 (53:19):
The greatest clay court player of all time? Unbelievable fights,
A game evolved massively, someone that has to be respected
for so many reasons, not just his tennis. I think
tennis is poor without him being an active participant in it,
So it's it is sad from that perspective, but it felt.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
Right for me. It's the end of an era. Now.
All the swag around my house, you know, I'm surrounded
by arts of him and birthday presence of hats with
his logos, and you know, my loved ones can distill
dine out on that for the rest of time for
anyone listening. I will still take any and all Rafa themed.
Speaker 5 (53:56):
Gifts, but it's it's the end of an era and
all I hope all of us are not remembered by
our last moments, and I certainly won't remember Rafa by
the end of his I will choose to remember him
and with the entirety of his tennis career, the ups
and downs and all the moments that he fought through.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
And I am just glad that we got it for
as long as we did, because that was definitely not
a guarantee. I think people were running him off as
early as two thousand and seven, and boy were we
lucky to get so so much longer. With him longer
than I ever thought, So I'm really ultimately grateful for that.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
Well well said. I think for me, Rafa's ability to
convince even the greatest hater of his greatness is one
of his biggest strengths, and he did that many a
time across the board. And he was just a I
mean box office, you got what you paid for, which
(54:54):
is not something you could say every day in the
world of sports. So we're going to miss the guy.
Will have the memories, will have the you two clips
for sure of his exploits. But that is it for
us and this week's open Era. We've got a couple
episodes left. We'll do a year end award, season show
Best doper Best potentially on the docket, and Bush and
(55:20):
I will do a final fire side chat. But last
couple episodes. Pre thanks so much for joining us over
the years. Loved having you on, loved having you in
the discord as well, just to blast to contend us
with you.
Speaker 2 (55:35):
Yeah, thank you guys for holding space. Has been really
popular on the internet this week, But thank you guys
for holding space for all types of tennis conversations, whether
it's about the shop making and the serves, or also
the broader political conversations and sports conversations.
Speaker 3 (55:51):
There needs to be room for all.
Speaker 2 (55:52):
Of it, and I'll miss having you guys opening up
that space for all of us.
Speaker 3 (55:57):
So appreciate everything guys, you guys have done. And on
the pond.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
Bush, thank you, sir, Thank you for putting together this
recording by organizing a time with pri As. I forgot
what times and I was in. But do you have
a final message before I sign off?
Speaker 5 (56:16):
I do not.
Speaker 4 (56:17):
I'm final two weeks. I don't know what I'm going
to be liking the last recording. I haven't figured that
out yet. I don't know what kind of emotions are
going to be going through me.
Speaker 2 (56:26):
You can take some inspiration from Rafa, like some light
light tearing up, get a little bit stumbling over your words,
but not like a full Roger song.
Speaker 1 (56:34):
I have already asked Talon Greeks for if he will
zum in with us, just.
Speaker 2 (56:39):
So he can be with us, not Bote.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
I mean Votage. She's busy, we know, but okay, well
you went there for producer Dylan on the ones and twos.
Who's a legend to jump on short notice with us?
Thank you so much, our friend, and thank you so
much for listening. We'll talk to you soon, not sure exactly.
We'll talk to you soon with our year end Award
(57:04):
Show episode. Thanks for listening to open Era, Take care,
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