October 11, 2024 • 38 mins
Another legend is walking away from Tennis. On this week’s Open Era, Devang and Simon react to the news of Rafael Nadal’s impending retirement, which will be official at the conclusion of the Davis Cup in Malaga. The guys share their favourite memories of the Spaniard, wonder what he’ll be remembered most for and mark the other news and notes in the tennis world, including Richard Gasquet’s bombshell, the return of the Wuhan Open and much more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hello, and welcome to the Open Air Podcast. My name
is Debang Tasai and I am joined as always by
mister Simon Bushell Bush. The legends are leaving us one
by one, I guess, not leaving us in the most
physical sense, but leaving tennis. Not a surprise though, As
we gather this week Simon Rafael Dadal officially announcing that
(00:36):
the Davis Cup in Malaga will be his last tournament.
What a fitting place to do it, representing his country
with Captain David Ferrer leading Spain. I think Rafa really
wanted it to be there, so it feels right. But
just overall, Bush, how are you feeling?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah, I think this has been a long time coming,
has it not? By the way, you missed a golden
opportunity to set up the time miss direction joke there
and praise Richard Gascae instead.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
But I know, I know, I was going to say,
you have to do it, But I feel bad now
about making fun of it, because I feel like a
lot of people are making fun of We shared.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
On then a dull point. I feel like we've known
for a very long time that the end of his
career was very near. We have spent the last three years,
I think trying to figure out when the end would come.
I think this feels right. I think when you see
an announcement like that and the nature of what the
(01:35):
Davis Cup has meant to him, the fact that it's
in Spain, the fact that David Ferrero is the captain
of the team. I think he draws attention to it
as well in his retirement video. How much that tournament
has meant to him, or competition has meant to him.
I should say, it just feels right, dev, doesn't it.
It feels like the time is right. He doesn't have anything,
He doesn't owe the sport anything. It doesn't feel like
(01:56):
he has anything left to give. And yet, with all
that being said, there's always a way with Raffia and Adhal,
isn't there. And there's a part of me at the
back of my mind that's like, I feel like he
still has one more slamming in, doesn't he?
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Oh no, I imagine. Well. I do think that the
way the Olympics ended and how it was really a
bit of a thud, with that match against Novak not
living up to the hype and Rafa clearly not being
physically able to perform to his abilities, him wanting to
wash that taste out of his mouth. In terms of
(02:30):
like representing Spain, this was definitely a box checker like it.
With this, this feels so complete and I think on
discord Josh was alluding to this for a while, like
predicting where he might decide to end it, and we
were looking at some places, maybe even in January or
in Australia. But sure RpK must be the happiest damn
(02:52):
man in the world because now the Davis Cup Finals,
however destroyed, they maybe are going to be one hell
of a hot ticket. I was thinking Felix ash Aliasim
is pulling out. He's played a lot of tennis, obviously,
represented the Canada in Paris. He's doing some amazing charity
work in Togo as well. But I wonder if he
wants to just go and hang out now, because I
(03:13):
feel like this is going to be one of those
tennis moments where everyone's there. I mean, Novak's going to
be there because he's playing with Serbia, and Carlo Zakaraz
is going to be representing Spain like it. Veterer is
going to show up obviously. I bet I can see
rog being there like it's going to be a moment
and it feels like a perfect thing. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I think we're just excited to sort of celebrate his career,
aren't we. I don't think this feels sad at all.
I think some of the sadness I think for me
came and watching some of his performances that have come
out of the last few years. Yeah, that's where it
really has been really kind of I want to say
a sorry side that makes it sound way too harsh,
but just like it's it's a far cry from the
(03:56):
the athlete and the player that we've grown so accustomed
to seeing perform at the highest level. So this I
was gonna call this a glorified exhibition. It isn't it has.
It's still a competition of some note, despite all the
nonsense that's happened with it. Yeah, I think I to
go back to that point, and it just feels right,
(04:17):
doesn't it. It just feels like the time is nigh and
I think we can all celebrate that moment.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
In terms of Rafa the player, Like I'm curious Bush
like so two thousand and four and the reason why
I think this twenty twenty four ended they just kept.
It's so fitting is because Rafa himself mentions that one
of his first great joys was in Seville and in
two thousand and four and the day was cut final.
Do you remember him beating Roddick then? Because I felt
(04:46):
like this was a huge moment, mainly because Rafa was
wearing like stuff people didn't wear. And also we gawcked
a lot more back then at things like sleeveless tease
because maybe we were NII and dumb. But I I
do remember him bursting onto this scene and making me
shudder because of my PM maybe puritan ways.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Well, I think we have some younger listeners to the
podcast who may have not witnessed the start of Raphien
in our career, and I think maybe sometimes we forget,
just given how long it's gone for exactly what he
was like as a teenager when he first burst onto
the scene. He was by far and away the most
exciting tennis player at an early age of my lifetime.
(05:29):
And I think that he surpassed on the men's side,
I should say on the men's side, he certainly surpassed
in terms of what wager Federer was certainly surpassed, what
not about Jokovic was he was a phenom. He was
miles ahead of where he should have been for his age,
both physically in terms of his brain as well as
on court. IQ And I think you saw that in
the Davis Cup. It's no surprise that the two thousand
(05:53):
and five season you saw what he was capable of.
Some of the victories obviously that he had then and
the tournament wins. I don't think it came as a
big shock to anyone who watched him in that those
Davis Cup finals in two thousand and four. I think
maybe people look back and see like the fashion and
the long hair and you know, the grunting and everything.
(06:15):
I think go back and watch early raffling Nadal and
watch his on court sense of when to move forward,
his movement, all those kind of things are phenomenal for
a fifteen and sixteen year old. They are far beyond
his years, and I think that is testament to why
he's had such a long career, because yeah, he was
absolute stud at a very early age.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
He's been kind of think of like how when we
watched La min Yamal play now for like Spain or Barcelona,
and he's doing things that are world class, and he's
standing out amongst his peers and you're like, Wow, this
guy's definitely one of the best at his position and
in what he does in the world. And they're like,
(06:58):
oh wait, he's sixteen, Like what, Like he's got races
on and he's got class tomorrow. Like there's those things
that you just take for granted, And we definitely did
with Ralph. I did, at least, Like I think I
considered him a foil more than anything at the beginning
because I was locked in on fed and he was
the complete opposite. But I think as I got older
and the harsh realities of time began to strike, I
(07:22):
began to appreciate raf As so much more because I
do think the mentality he had has, the belief he
be played with was truly one of one. Like I
really don't think we'll ever see that again. We'll never
see someone play every point like that, And I think
it's something to marvel at as we realized how much
(07:44):
harder everything gets as you get older. And I think
for him to like start that young and maybe put
the curve so impossibly high and to like meet all
of those goals, it's like lebron Esque in some ways too,
I feel like in terms of, yeah, he delivered on
everything that he promised, and then some.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I think it is a very valid question to ask
in terms of if you are putting up two sides
here and say, on the one side, there is Rafa
Nadal the tennis player in terms of technique, in terms
of power, in terms of court movement, in terms of
spin and all the things that he's done in terms
of that side of things, and on the other side
(08:24):
of things there is a pure and utter competitor in
terms of what he brought to every single point. What
do you think he's more remembered for, Because on the
one hand, everything that I said about him being a
tennis player, he is so important to the ATP and
to the men's side of the tour in terms of
how he advanced the sport in terms of what we
(08:45):
now consider to be standard in terms of some of
the shot selection that's being hit. But that other side
of things, of just his sheer commitment to every single ball,
every single point, his undying relentlessness on court. I think
that perhaps stands out for differing reasons, and maybe if
(09:05):
I look back and have my own memories of Raffia
and Nadal. It's less of the tennis player and more
of the Oh my god, he's going to win this.
I have no doubt at all. He's still giving it
absolutely everything, and he has no chance of winning, but
he still will. And I think that is perhaps the
biggest compliment that I can pay to him.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
It's a fair question, I think, and like I, I
don't know, I've absorbed enough content and media of Rafa
Jason to maybe get a read on this. And I
could be wrong, but I think he's pretty He'd be
most proud of the spirit and the fighting spirit and
the idea that he's He's known for that, and when
(09:44):
other athletes talk about belief and will to win and
mentality and etcetera, etcetera, they reference him like it's across
the board. It really is across the board. Every sport does,
no matter what, and it doesn't matter what has happened
since on the court, because I know we talked, I
(10:05):
mean un till the Cows came home about the Big
Three and what it meant when they played each other,
and what the what the end of the day, what
it would mean for them once the Slam tallies were done.
But I think for Rafa, this idea of him as
a competitors, it's just so so perfectly him that I
(10:26):
could think of a few better honors to bestow on an athlete,
you know, because like it's something that will be passed
down and when we do see it amongst other athletes
will be like, you know what, that reminds us of him?
So I think that's pretty damn cool.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
You know. We always talk about in the coaching circles
that mentality of playing every ball, like literally playing every
point as it comes, not getting too far ahead of yourself,
all the things that run into cliche very quickly. Rafa
and all is the embodiment of that from every capacity
that you can imagine. He really did play every point,
(11:00):
every point like it was the last, and he really
was committed on court.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
It was.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
I think maybe more maybe more to put like more
color on this. It's it's the way that he attacked
every single point. It wasn't just like like everyone can
talk about being competitive and every point and staying focused
and all that kind of thing. It's it's one thing
to be that, and it's another thing to just assert
your will on every single point to try and break
your opponent's spirit in the way that he did. I
(11:27):
think that is much harder to do because that requires
a sense of unbelievable and unrelenting and unbreakable will like
to to realize that you are capable of doing that
despite whatever the match situation is, and despite how you're
feeling and where your game is at, to still continue
to attack points the way that he did. I don't
(11:48):
I don't think we're going to see another player like
that in our lifetime. I think it's going to be
very challenging, just given the way that tennis has evolved.
He kind of is one for one in that regard.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, and there's a few things I think, like the
Uncle Tony set up, like we probably won't see this
kind of all in the family super duo slash? Is
this good? Should people be coached like this kind of
referendums we're having now, Like, I wonder if that whole
landscape changes. I know there's obviously like family teams still going,
(12:22):
and I mean you see like Coco's parents still clearly
heavily involved. But I do wonder if like that that
singular ability he had was sort of developed out of
this like kind of unique family set up he had,
where like his dad was an athlete, and like he
had uncles who were athletes, so that his other uncle
ended up being arguably one of the best coaches ever,
(12:45):
but only for him, because when he coached someone else,
it was like, I don't think this is exactly working
like it's It does feel like that's a bit of
a one off as well, in terms of how they
managed to figure this all out over the years, over
twenty years, basically twenty plus years since this guy has
(13:07):
been in front of us playing tennis. So I think
that's pretty pretty unique to you when you consider his
contemporaries and like the setups that they had that they had,
Tony be this sort of Phil Jackson type, I guess.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
And I also don't think we've seen the last of
unraveling that relationship either. I think we've seen a bit
more of it over the last few years. But I
think there's more to be written on what the insides
of that camp looked like in terms of what the
day to day was. I'm sure we're going to get
a book. I'm sure we're going to get a documentary series.
I'm sure we're going to get a lot of these things.
That will start to unpack a lot of those things.
(13:45):
So I'm excited to still learn a bit more about him.
Despite being one of the most famous, you know, sports
and athletes in the world, still seems a little private, right,
It still seems a little unknown about what goes on
between the raffie on Adhal and what goes on behind
closed doors as well. And I think that was by
a design. I think he is a very private person
(14:07):
in terms of how everything's put together. So I'm excited
to learn a bit more. Dev Can I read you
the top of the Russell Fuller article because I just
thought it was such a lovely summarization and I think
he did a really good job in his piece. Okay,
so this is Russell Fuller writing for the BBC. One
of my favorite raff in the Doll quotes was delivered
at the French Open in twenty fourteen. I think that
(14:29):
our generation is now on the way out. The Spaniard said,
we have been here for a long while. A generation
is walking away and others will replace us. It will
not come overnight, but it will come. Nadal uttered those
words ten years ago. Since then, he has won another
nine Grand Slam titles, a fourth Davis Cup trophy, and
enjoyed five further spells as world number one. How very
(14:50):
typical of his stellar generation. I think that's an interesting
place to kind of examine on this. Do you remember
twenty fourteen of all the talk and conversation rough and
a doll on the way out, you know, Roger Feller
not looking the same as he ever was, didn't really matter.
We still got another whole decade out of them.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, Well, he didn't play the US Open, right, it was,
and he left Wimbledon early, and I think that was
maybe not a shock considering he won the French but
he didn't play the US Open, And it was definitely
that conversation twenty fourteen. I think that was Novak sort
of cementing himself, right, and he was the player of
the year. These guys kept doing that. I find there's
(15:33):
like fifteen of those quotes where they kept they kept
writing their own eulogies about their era, and then they
they wrestled it back and took it away. And I
was thinking about this as well, bish like how their
ages didn't line up exactly like I obviously and Novak
were a bit closer, but Rafas started so much so early,
so it was almost perfect in that regard as well,
(15:56):
where I would have liked to have seen them at
their peaks together and their t's together, but I think
it was kind of unique how it worked out this
way as well. The two thousand and eight Wimbledon final
will obviously be talked about at length, as we talked
about Rapha's career and maybe when he crossed over into
the mainstream of like normy tennis fans who are like, oh,
(16:18):
I can cheer for this, but now because see one Wimbledon,
a quote unquote real tournament, we can talk about that.
We can talk about some of the triumphs that I
think are maybe underrated in the Rafa lore, like whenever
he pulled up to the US Open and somehow won,
like twenty thirteen when he had missed the year before entirely,
(16:41):
do you have a standout match, like, can you pick
one that says it's all it's quintessential Rafa to you.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I still think the one that sticks in my memory
is not Wimbooeden, It's Miami in two thousand and five.
It's the Roger Better a third round one. I think
despite all the many, many successes that came afterwards, it's
still burned into my memory of watching those two play
and really seeing tennis that I had never seen before.
(17:14):
I was young at the time. It was so formative
that match. I think I would circle and say, like,
it's one of the most important matches in terms of
my love of the sport. So I think that's where
I would go on it.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Oh man, that's a great pick. That's a great one.
I mean Italy in two thousand and six in Rome
against it was great. That was an amazing final they had. Yeah,
they had some great early on Masters finals. I think
(17:48):
Kim and Novak had some matches towards not the end,
but maybe in the last four or five years where
I I really I don't know. I think I ran
out of what you should describe like watching him play.
But I might go to twenty twelve I might go
to twenty twelve Australian Open, that final against Novak. That
(18:13):
one stands out because I think a lot of what
Rafa was about was refusing to listen to anyone count
him out, say he was done, say he wasn't going
to come back. And I think a lot of the
things I've been reading about him Bush today is that
that ability to not quit and to fight through any pain.
(18:34):
Like I think that served him so well. But in
another way it makes me think, oh, like he couldn't
like that just wasn't part of his DNA to like
stop and like he had well not a curse, because
obviously it had led him well. But there were so
many times when we talked on this spot where like, nah,
(18:55):
and that's it, and like he's he's got to live
a life after this, like he wants to do all
these things, but he was obsessed with competing, and I
did to have a competitor like this, Like it's hard
to believe we'll see someone like him again.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I think I'm the wrong person to ask about that
final truth be told dev I feel like I've erased
it from my memory of a time of just slogging
matches between the two of them. It's obviously incredible, but
I feel like I've gone on record enough times in
multiple of these podcasts and say that I'm not a
huge fan of like nine hour epics between people. Do
(19:30):
you think there is?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Then the Master's Matches I think also had something about
it where it was like, Okay, once they ended the
five setter stuff in the early arts, you got these
quicker matches that are still high, high quality.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Agreed. Do you think there is something in of all
the things that are going to be written about when
Novak Jokovic eventually retires and will get retrospectives on the
on the three dudes in terms of their respective careers.
I think I've become maybe more aware of how close
(20:06):
knit these camps are with all three dudes, and just
like the the sheer tightness of the relationship. Obviously, families
involved with all three of them in different for better
or worse, it has to be said. But it does
strike me that if there's one through line about all
three of them, it is how resilient and how focused
(20:29):
the camp was to surround the player and to have
solidity in that regard. And I think maybe that's the
one thing that struck me that is a through line
with all of them. Obviously their competitiveness and their tennis
speaks for itself, but to just have so much trust
with the people around you, and I think it speaks
(20:50):
volumes of the fact that we know the names of
the camp, and we know the names of the people
that are so in the inner circle of all of
these guys. I think that speaks very well of how
stable they were.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And I think you're seeing the next way of trying
to mimic that and maybe not doing it successfully, but
at least trying. And like you're definitely seeing I think
shades of that in in Carlos Sacarases Camp. For sure,
you're seeing some errors in terms of the annic center
surrounding himself with people. But no, that's that's bang on
(21:24):
and like the it takes a village kind of saying
it's hell, that's true, and it's I mean the financial outlay.
I think Rafis family did okay for themselves too, rite
like before when he was coming up. That's something else
(21:45):
I was thinking about Bush, like Federer, upper middle class
above that I believe like his parents find the dolls
parents same kind of boat. I think we Govak maybe
less so in terms of yeah, a lot, less so
in terms of what he had to to fight through
(22:07):
to get to where he was. Is there something to
be said about that that none of these guys were
like I guess super rich nepo babies or like like
they were kind of what tennis was, or like what tennis,
what we thought it was was supposed to be, not
to say that there wasn't nepotism back then, or like
(22:29):
privileges and advantages given to people back in the sports
glory days. Hell, Like I mean, the McEnroe stuff is obvious,
and there's other stories like that, but I don't know.
I was thinking about, like why they why they became
so beloved, and like winning obviously helps, but I wonder
if like the origin stories of being relatively normal led
(22:53):
something to like how much people could resonate with them
or like believe that they were just normal people. I
don't know, what do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (23:03):
It's a really good question of why they were so beloved.
My default on this point has always been because they
were really really damn good at tennis at a time
period where everyone was screaming out for a next generation.
That tennis has always existed on rivalries, and it's always
existed on the ability to advance the sport, because it
(23:25):
has had waves throughout history. I think, honestly, they just
came at a time period when the sport was transitioning
and they just like they they were on the on
that transition point where they just so happened to be
head and shoulders above the field around them.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
I don't know that it is. I don't know that
it's a class thing. I don't even know that it's
a personality thing. I don't think you would circle Rafa
Nadal and Roger Federer as being extraordinary personalities right in
terms of how they would be marketed, like from the
NADA standpoint, obviously first competitor, as we alluded to earlier
in the episode, Like that is unmistakable. Is that a
(24:05):
marketable quality? It is, but it's not like a transcendent
marketing quality. Roger Federer, like he's not a you know,
the elegant side of it. I think that was largely
circled a lot, and I think that was his calling card.
So maybe those things were were the differentiators, but I
think it's largely just because they were so much better
(24:25):
than everyone else.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And also, like hell, as much as I know both
of us love Federer, this whole thing doesn't work without
each other. If Roger kept going on and winning in
every title, and I don't know, I ended up with
twenty two and that was the story? Does tennis capture
(24:48):
the hearts and minds of a whole generation. I don't
think so does any sport.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I think that's that's the moment. That's the important question,
is like does sport exists as long as there's rivalries?
No one wants to watch everyone win all the time.
It's boring, Like this is why I never understood the
you know, the love and for all of the dynasties
and everyone wanting to see success like it's it's more
fun when it's competitive. It's more fun when people are good.
You want people to see the best of the best
competing against each other, but you also want to see
(25:14):
them want to, you know, rip them limb for limb,
like to tear each other apart. That's what you want
to see because that's what makes good good theater in
and that's what makes good sport.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
And what Nadal did to Roger, I think you could
argue Novak did to Raff in some ways in a sense.
At times, definitely he wrestled that rivalry away at a
certain point. And I think that sort of version of
Raff as well of being relatively human, because even when
he did lose, it felt almost as if it was
(25:46):
a one off that portion of when Novak kind of
wrestled away the tour also added a layer to this,
like the comeback he made. I mean the comebacks plural
that he made were exhilarating, but also I think perfect
in the sense of like the expectations were all over
(26:07):
the place, and I think really only Rafa knew where
he was at, but he was really confident in where
he was at once he knew, if that makes sense,
because once he entered a tournament in which he deemed
himself healthy, he usually went on to win. Like that.
That was the kind of the secret sauce there. So
I it's crazy. I'm just thinking back now to those
(26:29):
finals push and in two thousand and seven and then
two thousand and eight. How good it I was in
two thousand and eight, but also still appreciative of the spectacle.
I wouldn't have guessed you would have ended here though,
I even then I don't think. I don't think we
would have been talking about twenty two Slams and one
of the greatest to ever do it, full stop, best
(26:50):
competitor to ever do any sport in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, yeah, it's a good shout. I think you're certainly
in the top five, right, wanted to put people up
there in terms of ranking or finding equivalents in other sports.
I wonder I was thinking about this as you as
you were saying this, that the generational leap that existed,
(27:16):
it that exists in sport, then it has existed in
modern day sport, and tennis is a really good example
of this, because I feel pretty confident in standing here
and saying like that the leap in terms of ability
and in terms of where the sport was at between
Pete Sampras and Roger Federer, I think is enormous. Like
I think they are. I think they are miles apart
(27:37):
from each other. You know, with the greatest respect to Sampras,
I think, you know, Federer is head and shoulders above him.
Of where the sport progressed, too, I think that the
leap from Federer to Nadal is equally as big in
different capacities, the leap from Nadal to Djokovic in terms
of how things have evolved and in terms of like
where the sport has been pushed on, like not Dogravic
(28:00):
exists as an entity, like is his ability to win
twenty four Grand Slams. It's made up by the fact
that he was playing these two dudes and molded into
you know, fucking terminator. Like that's the reason. And I
wonder like in modern sport raphaen Adal and Roger Feder,
it kind of exists in this bubble, right, that transition
period between where from Sampras and agasy Can Saffin and
(28:22):
you know all the people that kind of came in
that Laton Hewitt as well, with that sort of transitionary
period that I don't know that we're going to see
another leap in the same way. Like I don't know
that going from Novak Djokovic to Carlos al Karaz is
the same leap that existed as what existed like in
the early two thousands. And I think maybe that is
test to me anyway you can go back through history
(28:45):
beyond Borg is a good example of that. The leap
from where what a Borg like pushed the sport I
think is enormous, like absolutely enormous in terms of say
with Jimmy Connors as well, Like you can find moments
of inflection points, I think, honestly to God like that
that leap that was made between where it was two
federal and Nadal is the biggest in the history of
(29:06):
our sport, and I think I'd be willing to defend
that point against just about anyone.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Actually, no, it's a strong one and I could see
what you're saying, like it's it's hard to imagine the
paradigm shifting again. As good as Yannig Sinner and Carlos
Soaker as have looked, it's hard to imagine it happening anything.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I think the parallels are interesting as well on the
women's side, right because Serena Williams, well, the Williams sisters
are are the example of that. They are the same point,
just on for the WTA instead of the ATP, And
I think it's just it's an amalgamation of fact. It's
the modernization of the sports science technology, a globalized world,
more data being available, and also athletes getting bigger and
(29:48):
stronger and better. Like easily, I think you could claim
that the Williams sisters are the biggest leap that has
existed inside of the sport of tennis as well on
the women's side, So I don't think it's a surprise
that you kind of look at the same kind of
time period. But on the men's side. I think it's
unquestionable that it has to be that.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Leave there. Do you want to talk about other tennis stuff?
Should we do that? Should we leave it?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
They kind of I'm gonna say, it feels a bit
disrespectful that the guy hasn't died.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
For goodness sake, We're literally gonna talk about the Davis Cup,
which will be the most hype Davis kuf in a while.
But I do earnestly want to shout out Reshard Gasca
because I don't think he was trying to like steal
any sort of limelight or like do any sort of
jokey stuff here. I think he was just asked about
like his future, and he said after next year's French Open,
(30:44):
he's going to hang him up. But ask I don't know,
ask any I don't know who to ask, but maybe
ask any scratch tennis player, to club pro, whoever you want,
if they would have wanted which our gascaes game or
his career, and I think they would have said yes,
because the man had shots for days. You've won a
(31:07):
lot of stuff. I mean, he didn't win the big stuff,
but like we said, there's levels to this. I do
think he played the game and just a beautiful way going.
I'm a sucker for that backhet.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Well, I think he's an interesting case study, isn't he?
Because I think if you ask the majority of people
who watched sport and watched him growing up and where
he was at, I think he would be on a
short list of the biggest wasted potential in the history.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Well, he was with Nadal, right he played, They played
in those junior tournaments.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
And no one ever wants to have that associated with him.
I also think it's a bit disingenuous a lot of
this stuff, the idea that you get, you know, I
think three Semis gets a world number seven, one of
Davis Cup, you know one. I don't know how many
career titles he has quite a lot, right, it was
a decent amount that he did at the end. That's
(32:00):
a pretty damn good career, truth be told, I think
a lot of people would be happy to have that
on the resume when you hang it up. I think
that the gap is pretty big though, in terms of
what was the expectation he was, Like you said, he
was supposed to be raughing adult. He was supposed to
be Roger Federer, Like people were the expectations were that
high of him, and I think it's he and gel
(32:22):
On Fist I think sit in the same category, right
because so much was expected of more Fist, just given
the career slam at junior level, given the results that
he had as well. I think Gasco was incredible at
junior as well. What I remember, it's something ridiculous number
and world number one ranking. So I think we're gonna
miss him. I always enjoy watching him play. I think
(32:45):
he gets I think obviously like the aesthetics of the backhand,
all that kind of stuff is people know him for that. Again,
just an incredible tennis brain as well. One thing that
he really is so natural out on a tennis court
that it's going to be sad to not see him around.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
That David's Cup with Joe Willie and Lucas Pui PhH.
That was awesome. That was an extremely cathartic thing to
watch happen and see France win. Yeah, I mean the
phenon stuff not panning out. I also feel like what
opposites him in Nadal, Like no wonder Nadal was eighteen
(33:25):
and oh or something insane by the end of it,
because you had someone who was literally, you watched being
physically pushed around by someone who wanted it more than him,
and it felt like, this is probably unfair to say,
it felt like Rishard did not want it all the time,
and I'm not sure if that is a an accurate
assumption to make, but I do think to see him
(33:47):
stick around and play the way he has these last
few years, that to me says love of the game
and loving the sport and also kind of wanted to
respect the game. Because just reading some of his quotes
these last few years, I think you're getting a Reshard
Gasca who's seen a lot of stuff and has a
lot to say. So I'm curious to see if he
(34:08):
is a voice around the sport going forward.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
I think the longevity thing is an interesting part about this,
because you mentioned the idea that he doesn't want it
all the time. I think I'm gonna probably should have
checked this before. I'm pretty I'm pretty sure he played
his first ground slam around the time that, like George
Bush was beating Al Gore in the election, like it
was it was that long ago. The idea that he's
(34:36):
been on the tour is he twenty twenty four years
something around that.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
I can actually check this for you. His first Slam
was two thousand and two, so they were laying the
groundwork for the illegal invasion in Iraq just then. Literally, yes,
we sure gas Gay was playing his first round match.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
So the idea that someone brings it every match and
has everything ready to go on a tour as grinding
as the as the tennis too over twenty two years
seems a little challenging. Not all of us are insane.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
No, and it's it's big time. John mcarnoe alys that's
because every time he played, literally every time, like, you know,
this guy's got such a beautiful game, but you know,
you don't know if he if he loves it. You
don't know if he loves the sport. It's like, okay,
well clearly loves it because he's been playing it for
ninety eight percent of his life.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Yeah you will, we missed, you will, we missed.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
And we've got in for a bit longer too, because
he's good. He's gonna play till the French Open. I did.
I just didn't want to mention Simon just because I
I don't know if you did a double take, but
the Wuhan Open was just going down for the first
time in five years. Shitload has happened since the last
Wuhan openness has uh has taken place. But I don't
(35:52):
think we mentioned her last week, so I did want
to bring bring her up and just bring up the
tourists returned to China in the context of Shuai and
also in the context of I believe Adam Silver saying
today when we record on Thursday, that he could see
the NBA returning to China, so like not a surprise
at all, and like the tour is definitely like I mean,
(36:13):
we've heard all the scuttle but whether it be China
or or Saudi Arabi are looking for new revenue streams,
et cetera. But have you been surprised by how quickly
we were back in and whether or not anyone has
really been asking about peng shui or what's going on?
Speaker 2 (36:32):
No, because it was pretty much all for pr wasn't it.
I think we can pretty clearly say that at this point,
and I think it is just keeping with the broader
business and sporting world dev I think we can pretty
comfortably sit here and say that if this invasion of
(36:53):
Ukraine ended in December, that we would start seeing the
Moscow open back on the calendar very quickly. So for sure,
I think that is the nature of the business world.
These people don't have morals. They don't have and I
don't mean to like be, you know, overly reductive about it,
but if your entire thing is based upon you know,
(37:16):
infinite growth, and you know, constantly trying to find money
to keep your tour going, then Marls be damned, Green
speaks loudest.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
That is well said, and we will have more to
say about what it went down in Shanghai and won
in the weeks to come. But I think we'll leave
it there because this is a bit of an impromptu
recording as we got the news. It's been an emotional day,
a lot of RAPHA content, but we are on Patreon
dot com, forward slash open Era, join us there, get
the show, ad free, get it early and join us
(37:46):
on the discord or rich at and Rafa all the
time shows the pre Prianca on her tough day. But
we're supporting each other in the discord, sharing our Rafa memory,
get it, sharing guard his memories once again. Discord is
great and we love chatting with our friends on there.
(38:08):
And that is it for producer Dylan on the Ones
and Tuesday, And for Simon, thank you so much for
listening to open Er. We'll talk to you next time.
Hello, and welcome to the Open Air Podcast. My name
is Debang Tasai and I am joined as always by
mister Simon Bushell Bush. The legends are leaving us one
by one, I guess, not leaving us in the most
physical sense, but leaving tennis. Not a surprise though, As
we gather this week Simon Rafael Dadal officially announcing that
(00:36):
the Davis Cup in Malaga will be his last tournament.
What a fitting place to do it, representing his country
with Captain David Ferrer leading Spain. I think Rafa really
wanted it to be there, so it feels right. But
just overall, Bush, how are you feeling?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah, I think this has been a long time coming,
has it not? By the way, you missed a golden
opportunity to set up the time miss direction joke there
and praise Richard Gascae instead.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
But I know, I know, I was going to say,
you have to do it, But I feel bad now
about making fun of it, because I feel like a
lot of people are making fun of We shared.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
On then a dull point. I feel like we've known
for a very long time that the end of his
career was very near. We have spent the last three years,
I think trying to figure out when the end would come.
I think this feels right. I think when you see
an announcement like that and the nature of what the
(01:35):
Davis Cup has meant to him, the fact that it's
in Spain, the fact that David Ferrero is the captain
of the team. I think he draws attention to it
as well in his retirement video. How much that tournament
has meant to him, or competition has meant to him.
I should say, it just feels right, dev, doesn't it.
It feels like the time is right. He doesn't have anything,
He doesn't owe the sport anything. It doesn't feel like
(01:56):
he has anything left to give. And yet, with all
that being said, there's always a way with Raffia and Adhal,
isn't there. And there's a part of me at the
back of my mind that's like, I feel like he
still has one more slamming in, doesn't he?
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Oh no, I imagine. Well. I do think that the
way the Olympics ended and how it was really a
bit of a thud, with that match against Novak not
living up to the hype and Rafa clearly not being
physically able to perform to his abilities, him wanting to
wash that taste out of his mouth. In terms of
(02:30):
like representing Spain, this was definitely a box checker like it.
With this, this feels so complete and I think on
discord Josh was alluding to this for a while, like
predicting where he might decide to end it, and we
were looking at some places, maybe even in January or
in Australia. But sure RpK must be the happiest damn
(02:52):
man in the world because now the Davis Cup Finals,
however destroyed, they maybe are going to be one hell
of a hot ticket. I was thinking Felix ash Aliasim
is pulling out. He's played a lot of tennis, obviously,
represented the Canada in Paris. He's doing some amazing charity
work in Togo as well. But I wonder if he
wants to just go and hang out now, because I
(03:13):
feel like this is going to be one of those
tennis moments where everyone's there. I mean, Novak's going to
be there because he's playing with Serbia, and Carlo Zakaraz
is going to be representing Spain like it. Veterer is
going to show up obviously. I bet I can see
rog being there like it's going to be a moment
and it feels like a perfect thing. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I think we're just excited to sort of celebrate his career,
aren't we. I don't think this feels sad at all.
I think some of the sadness I think for me
came and watching some of his performances that have come
out of the last few years. Yeah, that's where it
really has been really kind of I want to say
a sorry side that makes it sound way too harsh,
but just like it's it's a far cry from the
(03:56):
the athlete and the player that we've grown so accustomed
to seeing perform at the highest level. So this I
was gonna call this a glorified exhibition. It isn't it has.
It's still a competition of some note, despite all the
nonsense that's happened with it. Yeah, I think I to
go back to that point, and it just feels right,
(04:17):
doesn't it. It just feels like the time is nigh and
I think we can all celebrate that moment.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
In terms of Rafa the player, Like I'm curious Bush
like so two thousand and four and the reason why
I think this twenty twenty four ended they just kept.
It's so fitting is because Rafa himself mentions that one
of his first great joys was in Seville and in
two thousand and four and the day was cut final.
Do you remember him beating Roddick then? Because I felt
(04:46):
like this was a huge moment, mainly because Rafa was
wearing like stuff people didn't wear. And also we gawcked
a lot more back then at things like sleeveless tease
because maybe we were NII and dumb. But I I
do remember him bursting onto this scene and making me
shudder because of my PM maybe puritan ways.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Well, I think we have some younger listeners to the
podcast who may have not witnessed the start of Raphien
in our career, and I think maybe sometimes we forget,
just given how long it's gone for exactly what he
was like as a teenager when he first burst onto
the scene. He was by far and away the most
exciting tennis player at an early age of my lifetime.
(05:29):
And I think that he surpassed on the men's side,
I should say on the men's side, he certainly surpassed
in terms of what wager Federer was certainly surpassed, what
not about Jokovic was he was a phenom. He was
miles ahead of where he should have been for his age,
both physically in terms of his brain as well as
on court. IQ And I think you saw that in
the Davis Cup. It's no surprise that the two thousand
(05:53):
and five season you saw what he was capable of.
Some of the victories obviously that he had then and
the tournament wins. I don't think it came as a
big shock to anyone who watched him in that those
Davis Cup finals in two thousand and four. I think
maybe people look back and see like the fashion and
the long hair and you know, the grunting and everything.
(06:15):
I think go back and watch early raffling Nadal and
watch his on court sense of when to move forward,
his movement, all those kind of things are phenomenal for
a fifteen and sixteen year old. They are far beyond
his years, and I think that is testament to why
he's had such a long career, because yeah, he was
absolute stud at a very early age.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
He's been kind of think of like how when we
watched La min Yamal play now for like Spain or Barcelona,
and he's doing things that are world class, and he's
standing out amongst his peers and you're like, Wow, this
guy's definitely one of the best at his position and
in what he does in the world. And they're like,
(06:58):
oh wait, he's sixteen, Like what, Like he's got races
on and he's got class tomorrow. Like there's those things
that you just take for granted, And we definitely did
with Ralph. I did, at least, Like I think I
considered him a foil more than anything at the beginning
because I was locked in on fed and he was
the complete opposite. But I think as I got older
and the harsh realities of time began to strike, I
(07:22):
began to appreciate raf As so much more because I
do think the mentality he had has, the belief he
be played with was truly one of one. Like I
really don't think we'll ever see that again. We'll never
see someone play every point like that, And I think
it's something to marvel at as we realized how much
(07:44):
harder everything gets as you get older. And I think
for him to like start that young and maybe put
the curve so impossibly high and to like meet all
of those goals, it's like lebron Esque in some ways too,
I feel like in terms of, yeah, he delivered on
everything that he promised, and then some.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I think it is a very valid question to ask
in terms of if you are putting up two sides
here and say, on the one side, there is Rafa
Nadal the tennis player in terms of technique, in terms
of power, in terms of court movement, in terms of
spin and all the things that he's done in terms
of that side of things, and on the other side
(08:24):
of things there is a pure and utter competitor in
terms of what he brought to every single point. What
do you think he's more remembered for, Because on the
one hand, everything that I said about him being a
tennis player, he is so important to the ATP and
to the men's side of the tour in terms of
how he advanced the sport in terms of what we
(08:45):
now consider to be standard in terms of some of
the shot selection that's being hit. But that other side
of things, of just his sheer commitment to every single ball,
every single point, his undying relentlessness on court. I think
that perhaps stands out for differing reasons, and maybe if
(09:05):
I look back and have my own memories of Raffia
and Nadal. It's less of the tennis player and more
of the Oh my god, he's going to win this.
I have no doubt at all. He's still giving it
absolutely everything, and he has no chance of winning, but
he still will. And I think that is perhaps the
biggest compliment that I can pay to him.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
It's a fair question, I think, and like I, I
don't know, I've absorbed enough content and media of Rafa
Jason to maybe get a read on this. And I
could be wrong, but I think he's pretty He'd be
most proud of the spirit and the fighting spirit and
the idea that he's He's known for that, and when
(09:44):
other athletes talk about belief and will to win and
mentality and etcetera, etcetera, they reference him like it's across
the board. It really is across the board. Every sport does,
no matter what, and it doesn't matter what has happened
since on the court, because I know we talked, I
(10:05):
mean un till the Cows came home about the Big
Three and what it meant when they played each other,
and what the what the end of the day, what
it would mean for them once the Slam tallies were done.
But I think for Rafa, this idea of him as
a competitors, it's just so so perfectly him that I
(10:26):
could think of a few better honors to bestow on an athlete,
you know, because like it's something that will be passed
down and when we do see it amongst other athletes
will be like, you know what, that reminds us of him?
So I think that's pretty damn cool.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
You know. We always talk about in the coaching circles
that mentality of playing every ball, like literally playing every
point as it comes, not getting too far ahead of yourself,
all the things that run into cliche very quickly. Rafa
and all is the embodiment of that from every capacity
that you can imagine. He really did play every point,
(11:00):
every point like it was the last, and he really
was committed on court.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
It was.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
I think maybe more maybe more to put like more
color on this. It's it's the way that he attacked
every single point. It wasn't just like like everyone can
talk about being competitive and every point and staying focused
and all that kind of thing. It's it's one thing
to be that, and it's another thing to just assert
your will on every single point to try and break
your opponent's spirit in the way that he did. I
(11:27):
think that is much harder to do because that requires
a sense of unbelievable and unrelenting and unbreakable will like
to to realize that you are capable of doing that
despite whatever the match situation is, and despite how you're
feeling and where your game is at, to still continue
to attack points the way that he did. I don't
(11:48):
I don't think we're going to see another player like
that in our lifetime. I think it's going to be
very challenging, just given the way that tennis has evolved.
He kind of is one for one in that regard.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, and there's a few things I think, like the
Uncle Tony set up, like we probably won't see this
kind of all in the family super duo slash? Is
this good? Should people be coached like this kind of
referendums we're having now, Like, I wonder if that whole
landscape changes. I know there's obviously like family teams still going,
(12:22):
and I mean you see like Coco's parents still clearly
heavily involved. But I do wonder if like that that
singular ability he had was sort of developed out of
this like kind of unique family set up he had,
where like his dad was an athlete, and like he
had uncles who were athletes, so that his other uncle
ended up being arguably one of the best coaches ever,
(12:45):
but only for him, because when he coached someone else,
it was like, I don't think this is exactly working
like it's It does feel like that's a bit of
a one off as well, in terms of how they
managed to figure this all out over the years, over
twenty years, basically twenty plus years since this guy has
(13:07):
been in front of us playing tennis. So I think
that's pretty pretty unique to you when you consider his
contemporaries and like the setups that they had that they had,
Tony be this sort of Phil Jackson type, I guess.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
And I also don't think we've seen the last of
unraveling that relationship either. I think we've seen a bit
more of it over the last few years. But I
think there's more to be written on what the insides
of that camp looked like in terms of what the
day to day was. I'm sure we're going to get
a book. I'm sure we're going to get a documentary series.
I'm sure we're going to get a lot of these things.
That will start to unpack a lot of those things.
(13:45):
So I'm excited to still learn a bit more about him.
Despite being one of the most famous, you know, sports
and athletes in the world, still seems a little private, right,
It still seems a little unknown about what goes on
between the raffie on Adhal and what goes on behind
closed doors as well. And I think that was by
a design. I think he is a very private person
(14:07):
in terms of how everything's put together. So I'm excited
to learn a bit more. Dev Can I read you
the top of the Russell Fuller article because I just
thought it was such a lovely summarization and I think
he did a really good job in his piece. Okay,
so this is Russell Fuller writing for the BBC. One
of my favorite raff in the Doll quotes was delivered
at the French Open in twenty fourteen. I think that
(14:29):
our generation is now on the way out. The Spaniard said,
we have been here for a long while. A generation
is walking away and others will replace us. It will
not come overnight, but it will come. Nadal uttered those
words ten years ago. Since then, he has won another
nine Grand Slam titles, a fourth Davis Cup trophy, and
enjoyed five further spells as world number one. How very
(14:50):
typical of his stellar generation. I think that's an interesting
place to kind of examine on this. Do you remember
twenty fourteen of all the talk and conversation rough and
a doll on the way out, you know, Roger Feller
not looking the same as he ever was, didn't really matter.
We still got another whole decade out of them.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, Well, he didn't play the US Open, right, it was,
and he left Wimbledon early, and I think that was
maybe not a shock considering he won the French but
he didn't play the US Open, And it was definitely
that conversation twenty fourteen. I think that was Novak sort
of cementing himself, right, and he was the player of
the year. These guys kept doing that. I find there's
(15:33):
like fifteen of those quotes where they kept they kept
writing their own eulogies about their era, and then they
they wrestled it back and took it away. And I
was thinking about this as well, bish like how their
ages didn't line up exactly like I obviously and Novak
were a bit closer, but Rafas started so much so early,
so it was almost perfect in that regard as well,
(15:56):
where I would have liked to have seen them at
their peaks together and their t's together, but I think
it was kind of unique how it worked out this
way as well. The two thousand and eight Wimbledon final
will obviously be talked about at length, as we talked
about Rapha's career and maybe when he crossed over into
the mainstream of like normy tennis fans who are like, oh,
(16:18):
I can cheer for this, but now because see one Wimbledon,
a quote unquote real tournament, we can talk about that.
We can talk about some of the triumphs that I
think are maybe underrated in the Rafa lore, like whenever
he pulled up to the US Open and somehow won,
like twenty thirteen when he had missed the year before entirely,
(16:41):
do you have a standout match, like, can you pick
one that says it's all it's quintessential Rafa to you.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I still think the one that sticks in my memory
is not Wimbooeden, It's Miami in two thousand and five.
It's the Roger Better a third round one. I think
despite all the many, many successes that came afterwards, it's
still burned into my memory of watching those two play
and really seeing tennis that I had never seen before.
(17:14):
I was young at the time. It was so formative
that match. I think I would circle and say, like,
it's one of the most important matches in terms of
my love of the sport. So I think that's where
I would go on it.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Oh man, that's a great pick. That's a great one.
I mean Italy in two thousand and six in Rome
against it was great. That was an amazing final they had. Yeah,
they had some great early on Masters finals. I think
(17:48):
Kim and Novak had some matches towards not the end,
but maybe in the last four or five years where
I I really I don't know. I think I ran
out of what you should describe like watching him play.
But I might go to twenty twelve I might go
to twenty twelve Australian Open, that final against Novak. That
(18:13):
one stands out because I think a lot of what
Rafa was about was refusing to listen to anyone count
him out, say he was done, say he wasn't going
to come back. And I think a lot of the
things I've been reading about him Bush today is that
that ability to not quit and to fight through any pain.
(18:34):
Like I think that served him so well. But in
another way it makes me think, oh, like he couldn't
like that just wasn't part of his DNA to like
stop and like he had well not a curse, because
obviously it had led him well. But there were so
many times when we talked on this spot where like, nah,
(18:55):
and that's it, and like he's he's got to live
a life after this, like he wants to do all
these things, but he was obsessed with competing, and I
did to have a competitor like this, Like it's hard
to believe we'll see someone like him again.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I think I'm the wrong person to ask about that
final truth be told dev I feel like I've erased
it from my memory of a time of just slogging
matches between the two of them. It's obviously incredible, but
I feel like I've gone on record enough times in
multiple of these podcasts and say that I'm not a
huge fan of like nine hour epics between people. Do
(19:30):
you think there is?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Then the Master's Matches I think also had something about
it where it was like, Okay, once they ended the
five setter stuff in the early arts, you got these
quicker matches that are still high, high quality.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Agreed. Do you think there is something in of all
the things that are going to be written about when
Novak Jokovic eventually retires and will get retrospectives on the
on the three dudes in terms of their respective careers.
I think I've become maybe more aware of how close
(20:06):
knit these camps are with all three dudes, and just
like the the sheer tightness of the relationship. Obviously, families
involved with all three of them in different for better
or worse, it has to be said. But it does
strike me that if there's one through line about all
three of them, it is how resilient and how focused
(20:29):
the camp was to surround the player and to have
solidity in that regard. And I think maybe that's the
one thing that struck me that is a through line
with all of them. Obviously their competitiveness and their tennis
speaks for itself, but to just have so much trust
with the people around you, and I think it speaks
(20:50):
volumes of the fact that we know the names of
the camp, and we know the names of the people
that are so in the inner circle of all of
these guys. I think that speaks very well of how
stable they were.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And I think you're seeing the next way of trying
to mimic that and maybe not doing it successfully, but
at least trying. And like you're definitely seeing I think
shades of that in in Carlos Sacarases Camp. For sure,
you're seeing some errors in terms of the annic center
surrounding himself with people. But no, that's that's bang on
(21:24):
and like the it takes a village kind of saying
it's hell, that's true, and it's I mean the financial outlay.
I think Rafis family did okay for themselves too, rite
like before when he was coming up. That's something else
(21:45):
I was thinking about Bush, like Federer, upper middle class
above that I believe like his parents find the dolls
parents same kind of boat. I think we Govak maybe
less so in terms of yeah, a lot, less so
in terms of what he had to to fight through
(22:07):
to get to where he was. Is there something to
be said about that that none of these guys were
like I guess super rich nepo babies or like like
they were kind of what tennis was, or like what tennis,
what we thought it was was supposed to be, not
to say that there wasn't nepotism back then, or like
(22:29):
privileges and advantages given to people back in the sports
glory days. Hell, Like I mean, the McEnroe stuff is obvious,
and there's other stories like that, but I don't know.
I was thinking about, like why they why they became
so beloved, and like winning obviously helps, but I wonder
if like the origin stories of being relatively normal led
(22:53):
something to like how much people could resonate with them
or like believe that they were just normal people. I
don't know, what do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (23:03):
It's a really good question of why they were so beloved.
My default on this point has always been because they
were really really damn good at tennis at a time
period where everyone was screaming out for a next generation.
That tennis has always existed on rivalries, and it's always
existed on the ability to advance the sport, because it
(23:25):
has had waves throughout history. I think, honestly, they just
came at a time period when the sport was transitioning
and they just like they they were on the on
that transition point where they just so happened to be
head and shoulders above the field around them.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
I don't know that it is. I don't know that
it's a class thing. I don't even know that it's
a personality thing. I don't think you would circle Rafa
Nadal and Roger Federer as being extraordinary personalities right in
terms of how they would be marketed, like from the
NADA standpoint, obviously first competitor, as we alluded to earlier
in the episode, Like that is unmistakable. Is that a
(24:05):
marketable quality? It is, but it's not like a transcendent
marketing quality. Roger Federer, like he's not a you know,
the elegant side of it. I think that was largely
circled a lot, and I think that was his calling card.
So maybe those things were were the differentiators, but I
think it's largely just because they were so much better
(24:25):
than everyone else.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And also, like hell, as much as I know both
of us love Federer, this whole thing doesn't work without
each other. If Roger kept going on and winning in
every title, and I don't know, I ended up with
twenty two and that was the story? Does tennis capture
(24:48):
the hearts and minds of a whole generation. I don't
think so does any sport.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I think that's that's the moment. That's the important question,
is like does sport exists as long as there's rivalries?
No one wants to watch everyone win all the time.
It's boring, Like this is why I never understood the
you know, the love and for all of the dynasties
and everyone wanting to see success like it's it's more
fun when it's competitive. It's more fun when people are good.
You want people to see the best of the best
competing against each other, but you also want to see
(25:14):
them want to, you know, rip them limb for limb,
like to tear each other apart. That's what you want
to see because that's what makes good good theater in
and that's what makes good sport.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
And what Nadal did to Roger, I think you could
argue Novak did to Raff in some ways in a sense.
At times, definitely he wrestled that rivalry away at a
certain point. And I think that sort of version of
Raff as well of being relatively human, because even when
he did lose, it felt almost as if it was
(25:46):
a one off that portion of when Novak kind of
wrestled away the tour also added a layer to this,
like the comeback he made. I mean the comebacks plural
that he made were exhilarating, but also I think perfect
in the sense of like the expectations were all over
(26:07):
the place, and I think really only Rafa knew where
he was at, but he was really confident in where
he was at once he knew, if that makes sense,
because once he entered a tournament in which he deemed
himself healthy, he usually went on to win. Like that.
That was the kind of the secret sauce there. So
I it's crazy. I'm just thinking back now to those
(26:29):
finals push and in two thousand and seven and then
two thousand and eight. How good it I was in
two thousand and eight, but also still appreciative of the spectacle.
I wouldn't have guessed you would have ended here though,
I even then I don't think. I don't think we
would have been talking about twenty two Slams and one
of the greatest to ever do it, full stop, best
(26:50):
competitor to ever do any sport in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, yeah, it's a good shout. I think you're certainly
in the top five, right, wanted to put people up
there in terms of ranking or finding equivalents in other sports.
I wonder I was thinking about this as you as
you were saying this, that the generational leap that existed,
(27:16):
it that exists in sport, then it has existed in
modern day sport, and tennis is a really good example
of this, because I feel pretty confident in standing here
and saying like that the leap in terms of ability
and in terms of where the sport was at between
Pete Sampras and Roger Federer, I think is enormous. Like
I think they are. I think they are miles apart
(27:37):
from each other. You know, with the greatest respect to Sampras,
I think, you know, Federer is head and shoulders above him.
Of where the sport progressed, too, I think that the
leap from Federer to Nadal is equally as big in
different capacities, the leap from Nadal to Djokovic in terms
of how things have evolved and in terms of like
where the sport has been pushed on, like not Dogravic
(28:00):
exists as an entity, like is his ability to win
twenty four Grand Slams. It's made up by the fact
that he was playing these two dudes and molded into
you know, fucking terminator. Like that's the reason. And I
wonder like in modern sport raphaen Adal and Roger Feder,
it kind of exists in this bubble, right, that transition
period between where from Sampras and agasy Can Saffin and
(28:22):
you know all the people that kind of came in
that Laton Hewitt as well, with that sort of transitionary
period that I don't know that we're going to see
another leap in the same way. Like I don't know
that going from Novak Djokovic to Carlos al Karaz is
the same leap that existed as what existed like in
the early two thousands. And I think maybe that is
test to me anyway you can go back through history
(28:45):
beyond Borg is a good example of that. The leap
from where what a Borg like pushed the sport I
think is enormous, like absolutely enormous in terms of say
with Jimmy Connors as well, Like you can find moments
of inflection points, I think, honestly to God like that
that leap that was made between where it was two
federal and Nadal is the biggest in the history of
(29:06):
our sport, and I think I'd be willing to defend
that point against just about anyone.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Actually, no, it's a strong one and I could see
what you're saying, like it's it's hard to imagine the
paradigm shifting again. As good as Yannig Sinner and Carlos
Soaker as have looked, it's hard to imagine it happening anything.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I think the parallels are interesting as well on the
women's side, right because Serena Williams, well, the Williams sisters
are are the example of that. They are the same point,
just on for the WTA instead of the ATP, And
I think it's just it's an amalgamation of fact. It's
the modernization of the sports science technology, a globalized world,
more data being available, and also athletes getting bigger and
(29:48):
stronger and better. Like easily, I think you could claim
that the Williams sisters are the biggest leap that has
existed inside of the sport of tennis as well on
the women's side, So I don't think it's a surprise
that you kind of look at the same kind of
time period. But on the men's side. I think it's
unquestionable that it has to be that.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Leave there. Do you want to talk about other tennis stuff?
Should we do that? Should we leave it?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
They kind of I'm gonna say, it feels a bit
disrespectful that the guy hasn't died.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
For goodness sake, We're literally gonna talk about the Davis Cup,
which will be the most hype Davis kuf in a while.
But I do earnestly want to shout out Reshard Gasca
because I don't think he was trying to like steal
any sort of limelight or like do any sort of
jokey stuff here. I think he was just asked about
like his future, and he said after next year's French Open,
(30:44):
he's going to hang him up. But ask I don't know,
ask any I don't know who to ask, but maybe
ask any scratch tennis player, to club pro, whoever you want,
if they would have wanted which our gascaes game or
his career, and I think they would have said yes,
because the man had shots for days. You've won a
(31:07):
lot of stuff. I mean, he didn't win the big stuff,
but like we said, there's levels to this. I do
think he played the game and just a beautiful way going.
I'm a sucker for that backhet.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Well, I think he's an interesting case study, isn't he?
Because I think if you ask the majority of people
who watched sport and watched him growing up and where
he was at, I think he would be on a
short list of the biggest wasted potential in the history.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Well, he was with Nadal, right he played, They played
in those junior tournaments.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
And no one ever wants to have that associated with him.
I also think it's a bit disingenuous a lot of
this stuff, the idea that you get, you know, I
think three Semis gets a world number seven, one of
Davis Cup, you know one. I don't know how many
career titles he has quite a lot, right, it was
a decent amount that he did at the end. That's
(32:00):
a pretty damn good career, truth be told, I think
a lot of people would be happy to have that
on the resume when you hang it up. I think
that the gap is pretty big though, in terms of
what was the expectation he was, Like you said, he
was supposed to be raughing adult. He was supposed to
be Roger Federer, Like people were the expectations were that
high of him, and I think it's he and gel
(32:22):
On Fist I think sit in the same category, right
because so much was expected of more Fist, just given
the career slam at junior level, given the results that
he had as well. I think Gasco was incredible at
junior as well. What I remember, it's something ridiculous number
and world number one ranking. So I think we're gonna
miss him. I always enjoy watching him play. I think
(32:45):
he gets I think obviously like the aesthetics of the backhand,
all that kind of stuff is people know him for that. Again,
just an incredible tennis brain as well. One thing that
he really is so natural out on a tennis court
that it's going to be sad to not see him around.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
That David's Cup with Joe Willie and Lucas Pui PhH.
That was awesome. That was an extremely cathartic thing to
watch happen and see France win. Yeah, I mean the
phenon stuff not panning out. I also feel like what
opposites him in Nadal, Like no wonder Nadal was eighteen
(33:25):
and oh or something insane by the end of it,
because you had someone who was literally, you watched being
physically pushed around by someone who wanted it more than him,
and it felt like, this is probably unfair to say,
it felt like Rishard did not want it all the time,
and I'm not sure if that is a an accurate
assumption to make, but I do think to see him
(33:47):
stick around and play the way he has these last
few years, that to me says love of the game
and loving the sport and also kind of wanted to
respect the game. Because just reading some of his quotes
these last few years, I think you're getting a Reshard
Gasca who's seen a lot of stuff and has a
lot to say. So I'm curious to see if he
(34:08):
is a voice around the sport going forward.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
I think the longevity thing is an interesting part about this,
because you mentioned the idea that he doesn't want it
all the time. I think I'm gonna probably should have
checked this before. I'm pretty I'm pretty sure he played
his first ground slam around the time that, like George
Bush was beating Al Gore in the election, like it
was it was that long ago. The idea that he's
(34:36):
been on the tour is he twenty twenty four years
something around that.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
I can actually check this for you. His first Slam
was two thousand and two, so they were laying the
groundwork for the illegal invasion in Iraq just then. Literally, yes,
we sure gas Gay was playing his first round match.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
So the idea that someone brings it every match and
has everything ready to go on a tour as grinding
as the as the tennis too over twenty two years
seems a little challenging. Not all of us are insane.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
No, and it's it's big time. John mcarnoe alys that's
because every time he played, literally every time, like, you know,
this guy's got such a beautiful game, but you know,
you don't know if he if he loves it. You
don't know if he loves the sport. It's like, okay,
well clearly loves it because he's been playing it for
ninety eight percent of his life.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Yeah you will, we missed, you will, we missed.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
And we've got in for a bit longer too, because
he's good. He's gonna play till the French Open. I did.
I just didn't want to mention Simon just because I
I don't know if you did a double take, but
the Wuhan Open was just going down for the first
time in five years. Shitload has happened since the last
Wuhan openness has uh has taken place. But I don't
(35:52):
think we mentioned her last week, so I did want
to bring bring her up and just bring up the
tourists returned to China in the context of Shuai and
also in the context of I believe Adam Silver saying
today when we record on Thursday, that he could see
the NBA returning to China, so like not a surprise
at all, and like the tour is definitely like I mean,
(36:13):
we've heard all the scuttle but whether it be China
or or Saudi Arabi are looking for new revenue streams,
et cetera. But have you been surprised by how quickly
we were back in and whether or not anyone has
really been asking about peng shui or what's going on?
Speaker 2 (36:32):
No, because it was pretty much all for pr wasn't it.
I think we can pretty clearly say that at this point,
and I think it is just keeping with the broader
business and sporting world dev I think we can pretty
comfortably sit here and say that if this invasion of
(36:53):
Ukraine ended in December, that we would start seeing the
Moscow open back on the calendar very quickly. So for sure,
I think that is the nature of the business world.
These people don't have morals. They don't have and I
don't mean to like be, you know, overly reductive about it,
but if your entire thing is based upon you know,
(37:16):
infinite growth, and you know, constantly trying to find money
to keep your tour going, then Marls be damned, Green
speaks loudest.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
That is well said, and we will have more to
say about what it went down in Shanghai and won
in the weeks to come. But I think we'll leave
it there because this is a bit of an impromptu
recording as we got the news. It's been an emotional day,
a lot of RAPHA content, but we are on Patreon
dot com, forward slash open Era, join us there, get
the show, ad free, get it early and join us
(37:46):
on the discord or rich at and Rafa all the
time shows the pre Prianca on her tough day. But
we're supporting each other in the discord, sharing our Rafa memory,
get it, sharing guard his memories once again. Discord is
great and we love chatting with our friends on there.
(38:08):
And that is it for producer Dylan on the Ones
and Tuesday, And for Simon, thank you so much for
listening to open Er. We'll talk to you next time.
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