Chapter 195: The Prince's Tale

The Prince's Tale.

Snape has died and Voldemort has announced that Harry Potter has one hour to turn himself in or everyone dies.

In this episode of Owl Post: A Harry Potter Podcast hosts Andrea Coffman and Matthew Rushing talk about the thirty-third chapter of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. We discuss the intercom, more tragedy, Snape's memories and the implications they have on the series.

Hosts
Andrea Coffman and Matthew Rushing

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Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Welcome to the Nude Paul team.Ah Miles, he your owl post for

(00:24):
the week is freshly delivered, andI am just one of the hosts.
Here Matthew rushing in with me asshe is every single week. Weak Drea,
you're you're wearing a sweater today?What's what's going on? I know
it's really chilly here. I don'tknow what happened. It was nice and
warm and toasty last weekend and nowI'm I'm like freezing. My teeth are

(00:48):
like chattering. That's funny. That'sfunny, oh Man, classic weather.
Yeah, Arizona man. Oh Man, Like we didn't have enough to deal
with, let's throw some weird aroundus too. Well, it's a crazy
week because we have a very bigchapter that is going to well, it's
going to rewrite a lot of historyfor the Harry Potter universe in the sense

(01:11):
that we finally get a full understandingof the character of several snape. But
before we dive into the Princes's Tail, a couple of things. One,
We've got a couple of reviews overthere on Apple Podcasts that we wanted to
read, and this one says amazing, I love HP Part two five Stars,
they said, Hi, it's meagain. I recently came back to

(01:34):
listening, and I forgotten how muchI love you guys. This podcast really
dives into Harry Potter and explains theharder concepts. So I listen to it.
I am excited to continue, andI'm glad I came back to this
awesome podcast because it's literally the best. Oh, we are literally thankful.
I wasn't sure if you know,we were talking to Chris from you know,

(02:00):
Parks and Wreck, if they youknow, he had written that because
their name is just emojis, SoI'm not sure. Maybe it is,
Maybe it is. I love thatChris Steger is really exactly exactly Well.
This one's fun because this one,actually, Drea comes from a friend of
mine from church who told me thathe had given me the US the review,

(02:23):
and it's video Gamer one zero one, The necessary podcast for Harry Potter
fans. Five Stars. I wasintroduced to Harry Potter at a later age,
and so far I've only seen themovies that I love, but this
podcast has inspired me to start readingthe books. So it's cool to be
able to read along with the podcast. Very well done. Can't wait to

(02:43):
listen to them all and so well, I definitely appreciate that, Josh,
and I'm excited that we were theimpetus for him to start reading the books.
How cool is that? Drea?Oh my gosh, so many big
words right there too. I'm notawaken up for that. But yes,
no, I love and I lovewhen it's uh people we know. Um.

(03:07):
It both makes me excited and happyand a little self conscious too.
Um. I'm definitely made for radioand not videos, so it's good to
be able to have that that levelof you know, removed from things.
Um. A girlfriend of mine atwork also said she just started listening,
so she's several several hundred episodes backat this point. Um, so when

(03:30):
she gets to this it'll be asurprise. But uh yeah, I mean
there's there's a part of me that'ssuper excited and then a little a little
wary too. So, um,you know, we love it and bring
it on, and we don't havemany episodes left. I think we have
five after this one. Um,so it's it's bitter sweet, but keep

(03:52):
keep the love coming. We it'llit'll let us go out on it.
Really do appreciate it, and Ithink what's great about it is that you
know, it's a podcast to whichyou know, people can continue to discover
for years and years as people readHarry Potter. So we love it.
Thank you so much for the reviews. Of course, you can give us
your review over on Apple Podcasts andwe'll read it on the show. And

(04:14):
you can find us wherever you getyour podcasts, or just make sure you're
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the contact section and send us anemail. We love getting emails, Drey.

(04:38):
We just got one the other dayand they were basically just saying how
much they love the show. Andwe had some some good conversation on the
social media as too. On Facebook, you know, someone had some some
good comments and thoughts as well onan episode or two ago. We absolutely
did. And I just wanted tosay too that the email that we got

(04:58):
a show wanted us to haul herout on the show. So there you
go, Aisha, You've been madeour post famous. So welcome, Welcome
to history. So we're at chapterthirty three, The Prince's Tale, and
as they wrap up, you know, getting the memory from Stape Stape dies,

(05:21):
Voldemort comes on the intercom again basicallyand tells everybody that they've fought valiantly
that he doesn't want any more magicalblood spilt. And then he specifically challenges
Harry Potter to come find him andnot let more people die in his name,

(05:42):
but to come basically mano a mano, and then he will give them
one hour. So what's so interestingabout that? Before we move on and
go too much further. As hesays that, and as we process what
he said, and by us,I mean the characters, right, Like,
as the characters process that's what justhappened, Valdimore just continues to show

(06:06):
how manipulative he is and how wellhe knows like the soft spots for people,
right, he knows that calling Harryout and making him feel responsible for
everything that's happened is his trigger,because that's exactly what it does, is

(06:29):
Harry sits there and fixates on thisidea that it's his fault all of this
is happening, and that all thesepeople have died for him, when you
know, I think half a bookago or a book ago, we really
reinforced in Harry that this isn't aboutHarry. This is about what Harry represents,
right, But Dumbledore is kind ofcreeping back in there and trying to

(06:50):
kind of tweak that message again andmanipulate Harry into coming to face him in
the forest. Yeah. I dolove that idea, and I think it
is really smart because you're absolutely right. It does trigger Harry and he does
feel responsible for all of these people, you know, um, working to

(07:14):
defend the castle, and he realizes, you know, in the end too,
this is all about him and Voldemort. He knows that, and so
you know, um, it's it'sreally interesting because you know, they have
this hour now and they head backto the castle and it's kind of deserted,
and they realize everybody's in the GreatHall, and this is so tragic

(07:35):
because you know, as they enterthe Great Hall, you know, they
see all of the dead that arelying in the middle of the hall,
and you know, you can seethe weasleys around Fred's body and you know,
everybody's crying. Of course, stillJinny is red faced, and Hermione
goes to hug her, and youknow, Bill and Fleur and Percy are

(07:58):
all there as well, and Harrysees that two of his best friends are
dead as well. And he seesthe fact that you know, Tonks and
Lupin have died, and it's soheart wrenching because he can't he can't be
there, he can't stay there.And so because he has this mission and

(08:22):
it allows him to be able toextricate himself from this moment and head up
the Dumbledore's office to look for thepensive. But it's just so I mean,
it's heartbreaking because you know the wayshe even describes it as Harry would
tear his heart out of his chestif he could, because this is just

(08:43):
so painful. She doesn't say ithere. But part of why this is
so heart wrenching is that Harry,you know, Harry is kind of borderline
feeling responsible again because of the messagethat Valdemore just put in his head.
He goes in to see two peoplehe cares so much about are dead.
But on top of that, it'sexactly what happened to him as a kid

(09:05):
has now happened to Teddy, right, has now happened to Lupin and Tonks's
son, and that there's got tobe he knows what this kid is in
for now. Well, at leastat least he thinks he knows what this
kid is in for now, right, I mean hopefully right, yes,
agreed, hopefully there's a level ofremoval there, but he's still in for

(09:28):
you know, he now knows whatit feels like to not know what your
parents are like, to have togrow up not knowing them, right,
And I think that with everything elseis just like that's the thing that's just
too much for him. He justneeds to get away. He kind of
runs, he takes off. Heyells at the gargoyle. And I love
this part because, you know,he screams at the gargoyle the password for

(09:50):
Dumbledore's office or mcgonagall's office or Snave'soffice or whoever's office? Do you want
to call it the Headmaster's office?Um? And he yells Dumbledore. Right,
I don't actually think that's the password. I feel like the gargoyles know
that the level of intensity and passionand what's going on. There's almost some
sort of awareness there that they're likea, it doesn't matter, come on

(10:11):
in, buddy, you know likethis, there's this like understated he has
a right to be there, whetheror not the password was correct or not.
And so he kind of rushes intothe office. And I think seeing
the portrait of Dumbledore empty when heenters the office is a good representation of
just how he's feeling. He's justfeeling empty. Yeah, And it's interesting

(10:35):
because you know, for him,his thought processes. Look at least I
can escape into anybody's memories, regardlessof its Snape or not, Like it'll
just be good to kind of escape. And so what is interesting here and
what follows are a bunch of differentmemories from Snape to which help us completely

(10:56):
understand this character in a way thatwe've only had hinted at as we've been
reading throughout the books, I meanthe entire time. And somebody yelled at
us on their review from Apple Podcastyears ago that we didn't understand Snape,
And well, the reason we didn'tquote unquote understand Snape is because we weren't

(11:20):
jumping ahead. But she's hinted atthe entire book, that there's something about
Snape, that there's something about himto which one Dumbledore has trusted, as
well as that there's something else goingon that he's not quite the bad guy,
that he seems like he's like atransformer. There's more than meets the

(11:41):
eye with Snape, you know,And so what we get here the first
memory is Snape's first meeting with Lily, and Lily has been doing magic,
you know, she has realized shehas this ability and it's something to which
her sister Petunia does not like atall because she can't do it. And

(12:05):
so we immediately see that there's jealousyhere, and Snape kind of emerges onto
the scene. He's been watching Lilyfor a long time and seeing that she's
like him. You know, she'sa witch and he's the one throughout a
lot of these early memories that's goingto basically be her tutor before they go
to Hogwarts as to what it meansto be a witch and a wizard and

(12:28):
what that world is like, andit in many of these memories too.
What we get is a compounding ofthe jealousy between sisters here because Petunia doesn't
have the same powers and she doesn'thandle it very well. Yeah. I

(12:52):
think so there's so much what yousaid there. I think to your point
about Snape. Throughout the books,like, yeah, there's always been something
that didn't like we always got theempression were missing something, right. We
had to either sort of blindly trustthrough a portion of it, or we

(13:13):
had to you know, Snape alwayskind of being hard on Harry. It
felt like there was a reason forthat, right, He had a very
different perspective on Harry than others,and you know, we kind of came
to see that. We thought maybehe was just projecting some of his parents,
you know, of his dad,because of you know, sort of
petty jealousy. We come to findin this section that is just so much

(13:35):
more than that. It's an amplifiedversion of that feeling, right, And
yeah, I think this is reallywhere we also get an understanding. It's
so interesting because this whole chapter isfocused on Snape, but we learn so
much about all these other characters thatthey're almost tertiary. Right. We learned

(13:56):
about his aunt Petunia and kind ofwhy she hated his mom and dad so
so much. We learned she becomesvery vulnerable in this chapter two for not
very many pages and not very muchpresence in this book. You know,
she has a we learn a lotabout her um. Same with you know,
we learn about Lily and sort ofhow she ended up with James Potter

(14:18):
m But the whole thing is justit's super super into it and it is
really interesting to see for Harry tosee what his mom was like as a
kid at his age, right,he got to see what his from his
mom's perspective, not his dad,but his mom's perspective, what it was

(14:39):
like to not know about this worldand to come into the world the same
as he did. And that's gotto be heartwarming for him. And it's
also you know, in in theSecond Memory, one of the things that
really we really get here is thisconversation that him and Lily are having about
being a part of, you know, a magical family coming from a muggle

(15:01):
family, and if there is anydifference between that, and she even asks
him that, you know, ifthere is a difference, and he says
no. And so one of thethings that we're going to get in this
chapter, especially with Snape and Lily, is the choices we make in the
ideologies that we're going to follow,and how we're going to then live our

(15:26):
lives, and then we're going tojuxtapose those characters as they go to separate
ways. And I think the repercussionsthat we end up having with Snape make
this so interesting because Snape chooses apath that causes him immense pain and suffering,
and it's the path that probably seeminglypromised him, you know, ultimate

(15:52):
power, ultimate, all of thesethings, and yet leads to death right
like soul wise for Snape, likehe gets crushed by following this way.
And so I think she's she's showingthrough this story between Lily and Snape,
here the differences in their choices andthe values to which they are going to

(16:19):
follow. And what's fascinating is herethey seem to be on the same page
in this memory, and moving forwardthey are going to continually choose different paths
that is going to lead them incompletely different ways. Yeah, and and
for me, those paths are kindof the difference between what's right and what's

(16:44):
easy exactly. Snape felt like thedecisions at the time were easier. It
caused the least amount of waves hehad to be the least confrontational right,
he got to he didn't have tohave a sense of standing in his own
sort of morality. He kind ofgot to go along with the flow,
which ultimately ended up costing him somuch more than standing up for himself would

(17:07):
have. Whereas Lily stayed true toherself, true to what she knew and
believed to be right, true,you know, true to the people who
exhibited the values that she most alignedwith, even though they weren't perfect.
Right, we know, Serious andJames weren't perfect, but that they genuinely
had good intentions and good hearts.And while it still ended in sadness and

(17:27):
death for her, she could doso knowing she lived the right way right
and so she made difficult decisions andstood up for herself to create a better
world for everybody. And Snape justended up hurting the person he loved the
most in the world, which becomeshis main motivator for the rest of his
life. Well, and even herein this second memory, we kind of

(17:48):
start a little bit of separation inthat you know, they're found by Petunia,
you know, and you know,because they're talking alone, and he
gets upset and you know, themagic he can't control causes a branch to

(18:10):
fall on Petunia and her shoulder,and so we are already kind of starting
this opportunity. And we also findout through this that this confrontation that they
had found a letter that Petunia hadwritten to the Hogwarts headmaster asking to be

(18:30):
let into Hogwarts, and you know, he politely declined because obviously she's not
a witch. She does not havethe innate power needed to be able to
go to the school. And soagain this is creating this rift between sisters
and this intense jealousy which leads tohate between Petunia and Lily and of course

(18:56):
everything wizard related. And you know, James is like, why would it
matter if she hates you? She'sonly a and you know he you can
see this divide right Like for him, it matters more whether or not you're

(19:18):
a witch or a wizard, andif you're a wizard or a witch,
it puts you in a category abovethose who are not already. And I
think that's really interesting. Yeah,I think when we talk about the ists
out in the world and the ismsin the world, right, I feel
like there are levels of things,right like, not everyone I don't know.

(19:41):
I feel like Snape in this casedoes have a magical versus non magical
ism, right. He doesn't believethose who are non magical are as worth
it as those who are magical.Where Dumble well, I'm sorry, not
Dumbledore. Where Voldemort takes that tothe next level, not just those who
are magical versus not magical, butthose who are pure blood magic versus not

(20:06):
put pure blood magic. And hekind of has more tears built into his
is m if you will, right, But it sounds like some of you
know, I think we have sometruthful moments here, I think, And
it shows how much Snape really deviatesfrom his true beliefs as he grows up.
And he goes from telling her thatthere is no difference between being muggleborn

(20:30):
and not muggle born very honestly asa kid, there's nothing here to believe
he would lie there till later inthe chapter and later in life, calling
her a mud blood and very bitterlyin the moment, and her kind of
calling him on that was the endof their relationship, right, her calling
him out on the fact that,like, it doesn't matter if you didn't

(20:51):
mean to call me that. I'veheard you call others that like you adopted
that philosophy at this point, SoI'm no different and I don't want to
be any different than those other people, right. I think it's just so
interesting. We also get a snapshot, very very tiny here into Snape's sort
of upbringing, right, and thathis mom and dad are fighting, and

(21:12):
his dad seems to be somewhat crueland unhappy all the time. And when
we meet his mom on the platformnine and three quarters, she looks very
I think they describe her as sourfaced, like she does not look happy
either, and that he's honestly lookingforward to going to Hogwarts for much of
the same reason as Voldemort did.He wanted to get away from that,

(21:32):
he wanted a place to call homewhere he felt happy and safe. So
I think it's really interesting these sortof themes that existed, and that should
have been something that Harry could relateto and Snape could relate to Harry with,
and that was just not a pointfor them, you know, Yeah,
I mean you get the feeling,and I read it slightly differently.

(21:52):
I think, you know, hischildhood household does have I mean, because
when he said as to Lily thatthere is no difference she writes that he
hesitates, and I think that there'salways a deep seated thing and part of
that is that I don't think thathe likes his dad. I think he

(22:15):
has daddy issues and that causes himto kind of choose this side. And
again, I think one of thethings that we she's so good at being
nuanced here is what she's showing ishow all of these things can have an
impact on what you choose later inlife. How you're raised, whether you're
loved or not, you know,can have a massive impact on whether you

(22:37):
want to grab power and whether that'sgoing to be important to you. And
so all of those things play intothis. And so that continues too because
they have this moment on the trainwhere you know, Snape is talking to
Lily and how he's like, youbetter be a Slytherin and who walks by
but James and serious and they havethis confrontation all ready between the two about

(23:02):
you know, whether or not who'sbetter, um, you know, Slytherin
or Gryffindor. And this really kindof sets up a dichotomy that's going to
continue then as they get into school, because Lily is going to be put
into Gryffindor and Snape is going tobe, yeah, a Slytherin, and

(23:29):
she begins to see that he's hangingout with all these people that she doesn't
like. She she sees them asbeing dangerous, like Avery and a Colber
and the things that they have doneto other students that are just kind of
evil in dark magic, and hebrings up, you know, James and
his friends and what they do andthe and again the difference we kind of

(23:52):
see between these characters where James andhis friends are mischievous, right, but
nothing they're doing is really hurting anyone, right, I mean, they sometimes
use their magic in ways that theyshouldn't. We also see that with what
happens with Snape and the you know, we've already seen that memory of them
turning him upside down and everything.Yes, it's cruel, right, it's

(24:15):
not right, but it's also notgoing to kill Snape or it's and there's
nothing seriously dark about the magic they'reusing. But again we're kind of seeing
the different paths. Snape is choosinga much darker path and Lily and the
people she's going to end up associatingwith for the rest of her life,
choose a path to which they learnfrom those early mistakes, right, they

(24:41):
become different and better people, whereasSnape continually kind of goes down the dark
path and it leads him to aplace again which there's no happiness, there's
no joy, it just ends indeath. Yeah, I think I agree
for me the hesitation in his RESPONSItoility when their kids was more. Yes,

(25:04):
there are people that view these differently, but my honest answer is that,
I mean someone can be just asqualified as not. That's kind of
how I took it, so somewhatwhat you said, like there definitely was
a hesitation, but I read intoit a little bit differently. But I
do think what's really interesting is,Yeah, and we also don't quite know
because we come to find out throughthis conversation too. Not to justify James

(25:30):
or serious and Lupin's you know,treatment of Snape at all, but you
know, he also has sort ofbeen a participant in this, right,
He's been kind of tracking them andspreading rumors about Lupin and being a werewolf,
which we know come to be true. But we also know how kids
that age and even adults treated Lupinright like that was still an attack to

(25:55):
some extent, Right, So Ijust think we come to find that there's
just so much going on in thatrelationship, and that I think Lily had
to felt like she had to kindof pick sides between good or good ish
and what she felt was not good, right, And I think to your

(26:17):
point, her calling out things asevil and dark responses versus sort of measured
responses and what you'd expect someone oftheir age to respond as, it didn't
really feel like the people and Snape, who he aligned himself with, like
that they had measured responses to thesethings, right, that they were acting

(26:38):
in a way that was just needingto be mature and behave you know,
like was inappropriate but not evil.And she's trying to highlight the fact that
these people are responding evil, yes, right, and she needed to choose
the path of good, not thepath of evil. And so for her

(26:59):
them be what she called them totoe ish or like, yeah, them
being kind of douchebags was better thanthem using illegal magic, right, Like
She's like, I'll take a douchebagover someone who is literally committing evil,
heinous things any day. Yeah.Well, and that's the thing that you

(27:23):
know, their last main conversation thatthey ever have is him calling her a
mud blood in front of a bunchof other people and then sleeping outside the
Gryffindor common room until she comes outand they have a conversation and she says
to him, Look, I can'tpretend anymore. You've chosen your way,
I've chosen mine. And what Ireally love about Rellings writing is that she

(27:48):
does not shy away from the consequencesof the choices that we make. And
the consequence here for Snape is thatno, you will not be able to
be friends with Lily. You youhave chosen your way, and it's a
way that Lily cannot be a partof. And you literally have chosen the
thing that will divorce you from theperson that you love most in this world

(28:14):
and will then lead to her eventualdeath. And I just it's it's so
sad and it's so heartbreaking, andyet at the same time it's the perfect
lesson. You choose a path thatleads you down the dark way, and
for as Yoda says, well foreverwill dominate your destiny, and that's exactly

(28:37):
what happens the Snape. He cannever truly escape the choices he made early
in life. And that also goesto show that as a teenager, the
choices you make then can have massiverecercussions on your life that you can have
to deal with forever. I mean, like that could can continue in perpetuity

(28:59):
for the rest your life. I'mI can attest to that. Like again,
she's really I think, doing sucha great job of setting up a
series to which kids can learn from, you know, like that it makes
a difference how you choose to liveand what you choose to do even now.

(29:22):
Yeah, so there's two parts tothat I want to unpack. So
yes, I a thousand percent Iagree with that that you have to be
you have to think about the choicesyou make because some might have a lasting
impact for the rest of the day, some might have a lasting impact for
the rest of yours and others lives. Right like the choice he made impacted

(29:47):
so many other people. Right likehis choice also set up the rest of
Harry's life. Right, not justhis but Harry's so and thinking about those
choices and what they mean and allthese little choices feed into becoming who you
are. Right because she calls outlike you may not have meant to call

(30:08):
me a mud blood. But Ihave watched you call others. I have
watched you treat other people this wayright. And that impacted her even before
he called her that right, likehe was becoming a person, whether he
realized it or not. The secondpart to that, I think is not

(30:29):
just Snape and the decisions he makes, but I think Lily and her handling
of this was a beautiful example ofsomeone who has an incredibly high emotional intelligence
because she was also able to articulatethat to him, stand in her truth,
but also sort of. She neversaid Snape, I don't love you,

(30:49):
Snape or not friends. She stillcared about him, but had to
let him go right. He hadmade his choice. They were two different
paths. She had to recognize thatand be able to say you're going down
one path, I'm going down another. I wish you well, like good
luck, And that takes such maturityand such perception that most teenagers don't have,

(31:12):
most adults don't have that, Andit's so hard to be able to
say, you may have been myfirst and oldest friend at this point,
but I can't and I hope this, I hope this doesn't I hope this
doesn't go the way I think thisis going to go for you, you
know, And I think that's sucha mature conversation to have that. I

(31:33):
think she's also showing you how tostand in your truth and even when it's
hard, like here's how you doit. Here is a wonderful example of
how you handle that situation. Right, Yeah, And I would I would
add to that too, I think, you know, I think Rowling is
also showing that this isn't just aboutpersonal like choice or you know, like

(31:59):
peral definitions of like right or wrong. I definitely think she's falling down on
the side that one side is eviland the other side is good, like
there, you know, and soand what is that like when we break
that down, Lily chooses a lifeof selflessness and love and Snape chooses a

(32:22):
life of selfishness and power. Andso she's clearly I think again she's she's
reiterating classic morality of that there arecertain things that are right and there are
certain things that are wrong, andthe choices you make to follow one side
over the other have massive repercussions onyour life. But like you said,

(32:45):
I thought was really smart, italso has massive repercussions on those around you,
right, And so that's where weget to that next memory where Snape
has come to Dumbledore. And thisis after you know Trelawney's um you know,
prophecy, and he talks about howum you know, he's like,

(33:06):
you have to hide them, youhave to. He's like, you've got
to keep her safe. You've gotto. And you know, Dumbledore is
kind of disgusted, it literally disgusted, even says, so buy Snape and
um. But he says that hewill do it. You know, he'll
he'll do it, um and andand it flows right into the very next

(33:31):
memory where Snape comes and they've died, and he's like, you you said
you would keep her safe, andDumbledore has to explain, well, she
put her trust, Her and Jamesput their trust in the wrong person,
just as you have done, andit has led to their death. And

(33:51):
so now you will help me protecther son who has her eyes, you
remember those green eyes, snapeum,and he makes this is where he makes
him promise, Dumbledore promise that hewill never tell that you know, he's
a he's a part of this side, which obviously gets used later on because
then he can work for Voldemort andeverything, but we never will know this

(34:14):
is Snap. Dumbledore even says,people will never know the best of you,
you know, they they will onlysee this other side, and so
it's it's hunting and awful. Andyet in some ways I don't really necessarily
feel sorry for Snap, because youknow, Lily was absolutely right. You

(34:37):
chose your side and this is theconsequence of that, and it is heartbreaking,
But at the same time, it'slike, what did you expect?
Bro, So for me, thiswhole story feeds back into something that I
think as young people and somewhat asolder people, but I think it's super

(34:58):
prevalent when you're kind of from pubertytill like your late twenties. This is
not your whole world. The momentyou're in is not your whole truth,
right. The pain you feel,the suffering you're going through when you're nineteen
sixteen, seventeen, twenty two,Like, that's not your whole world,
right, Like like this is asmall piece of who you're going to become

(35:21):
and what you're going to live andthere's so much more to life, right,
And I think when you think aboutit that way too, And the
fact that She talks a lot abouthow this is a journey for her of
depression and suicide, thinking about thattoo, like this is not your whole
life, right, and and Snapelived his whole teenage life as if that
moment was everything, and it causedhim so much pain in the long run,

(35:44):
and thinking, you got it right. You have to remember, have
to have perspective about your life.And it's hard in the moment because you're
just like wallowing and sorrow and I'vebeen there, and it's hard to remind
yourself that this this other person isn'tyour whole world, and that there's more
out there and things like that.It's all those cliches people tell you there's
more fish in the sea, andyou know, all that stuff, but

(36:06):
it really is true that. Ialso think that I don't think I felt
sorry for Snape, but there's definitelya part of me that I really respected
the fact that Dumbledore here said todo what you want to do, you
have to be a villain for therest of your life. You're no one's

(36:27):
ever going to understand you. It'sgoing to be a lonely path, right,
You're not going to let people seethe best of you. And that's
the sacrifice you're making. Right.He basically went from I made the easy
decisions. I wanted power, Iwanted all these things too. I'm going
to live a life of suffering,which is a huge sacrifice. And I
gotta have respect to the fact thathe lived and breathed that to the day

(36:51):
he died. Right. So forme, I don't think I necessarily had
empathy for him, but I definitelyhad respect for the fact that that's a
hard decision to make and to livewith. And he did. He did
it, he came through, Andwhile he couldn't change the decisions he made
as a teenager, he at leastdid everything he could until the end of
his life to kind of pay penancefor what he did as a teenager and

(37:15):
the just and the consequences of whathis decision led to, Right, and
that he wanted no recognition for doingwhere you got right, Well, and
anyone, especially Harry, I mean, and anyone at all, No one
needed to know, No one shouldknow. Right. It wasn't even until
the end that he really could tellHarry this journey, and it was after

(37:36):
he died. And I can't reallydecide I'm on the fence, and I'd
love to hear from you and evensome of our listeners him choosing to share
this with Harry. Was this forSneep's benefit and for sort of that last
I need to give myself peace ofmind and sort of absolve my own guilt,
or was this too? I thinkthis is something you should know.

(37:57):
I think that you deserve to know. I think that having this context will
help you. I don't really knowwhere it felt, because it's sort of
to me felt a little bit likea like an apology and an obsolution of
guilt on Snape's part, unless aboutI want to make you feel better,
Harry. I have an answer forthat question, but I think it's gonna
come. No, No, Ithink it needs to come in a minute,

(38:21):
because I think we need to talkthrough a little bit. You know
what follows here, because it followsin a second. But the we see
through the years of Harry's existence atHogwarts and in the way in which Door
and Snape have been involved together withkeeping Harry Snape safe, and so from

(38:44):
the first year where Double Door talksabout you know, you know, you
look for what you want and Harryand I need your help keeping an eye
on Quarrel. We see the fourthyear where um, you know, Carcarroff
and him have been talking about theDark Mark and how it's getting darker and
how Carcaroff is going to run ifhe can, and how you know,

(39:06):
Snape says, no, he won't. We see in the sixth book,
which is becomes super important for somuch of what we talked about then is
that one we see how finally Dumbledoregot the scar on his hand, which
is he had put the ring onfrom our Volo Gaunt and he had put

(39:27):
it on and it is Snape towhich his helping keep Dumbledore alive like that
there is a curse that Snape canonly keep at bay for so long and
Dumbledore is going to die. Andthis is where we see that Dumbledore and

(39:49):
him make a pact that you know, you need to help Draco, you
need to figure this out, butalso when the moment comes, you need
to be the one to kill me. And and this is where they have
the conversation of whether or not youknow it's um soul, It's right,
yeah. And what I love aboutit is that the way Dumbledore explains this,

(40:10):
you alone know whether it's going tohurt your soul to help out an
old man um avoid harm and humiliation. You know, he talks about the
way in which Voldemort and Belatricks loveto like torture their victims and everything,
and he's like, will that harmyour soul? To keep me from that
humiliation, from that pain? Andso I think it's a really beautiful conversation,

(40:37):
and I think it also touches alittle bit on like he also is
the only one to know that he'sactually already dying. Right, there's also
a kind of a euthanasia portion tothis as well, not just in my
suffering, but like I'm going todie anyway, and while your soul and
you know that, like Draco's doesn't. Right, Draco's intention behind the action

(41:01):
is very different than your intention behindthe action, and it feeds into that
intentionality as a factor in whether ornot the action damages your soul. Right.
I also thought that was pretty whyis and that perspective was really interesting,
right, Like, no, I'mnot I'm not punishing you and asking

(41:22):
you to do this. I'm actuallyasking you to do me a favor,
right, Like I want you todo this. Yeah, And I mean
this is where too, you know, Snape is getting angry with Dumbledore when
they're talking about the fact that youknow, they're having these lessons together at
Dumbledore and Harry and he doesn't knowwhat's going on. He doesn't know what

(41:45):
he's being told and why. Andthis is where Dumbledore explains a little bit
the idea that he believes that Voldemortand Harry's souls are linked and that you
know, the moment that Lilli diedfor her son and Voldemort was shattered,

(42:05):
that the last piece of his soulconnected with Harry because it was the only
thing around and Snape being so frustratednow that they've been raising this boy only
to die. And I think thisis kind of the answer to the question
that you were having earlier, whichis, you know, this is I

(42:30):
think probably the hardest thing for Snapeto stomach, which is that everything he's
done here, he's still he's notgoing to be successful, you know,
like, not only is he hadto play the villain, but now he
realizes that Harry must die and thatthe last piece of him, that it

(43:00):
exists out there as you know,a part of Lily will be gone.
Um. I also think that thisis you know, we see I think
he's giving him the memory because Harryneeds this information as well. He needs
to see that this is the casethat you know, he knew that neither

(43:20):
could live while the other survives.Now Harry realizes that no, this is
this is me walking with my cross, you know, like this is.
And that's the reason why he giveshim these memories. He does, I
think, do it to explain himself. Um, But I also think it
helps Harry to be able to thenaccept this last final piece of information,

(43:45):
which no, you are basically walkingto Calvary. You know, there's no
coming back from this. Yeah,I think I think that's a good point.
I think I think that that makessense. I also think that I
think that Harry sort of suspected thathe, in fact was a horror crux.

(44:06):
And I don't know if I don'tknow how much Snape knows about their
I mean, he knows about theirjourney. He gave them the sword,
right, We come to find thathe also is who placed that sword in
the lake for them to find,right, and that the portrait they'd been

(44:27):
carrying around with them wasn't necessarily takinginformation back to Snape as on the bad
side, but was actually taking itback to Dumbledore's portrait and Snape as their
you know ally and so I thinkthat there's so there's so much there.
But yeah, I think that momentthat Snape realized that kind of felt like

(44:52):
all his efforts were for nothing,right, he didn't understand he couldn't see
kind of past that moment. Talkingabout perspective, right, he can't see
past that moment again, that Harrydying doesn't necessarily mean he's lost. It
means things that are the greater missionof conquering evil is doable. It just

(45:15):
comes with great sacrifice. Again,and another moment where Snape, even as
an adult, struggles with sacrifice forthe greater good and why it's so important
that he kept that relationship with Dumbledorewho could give him that perspective. Right.
And it also shows how those peoplein our life can have such an
impact on us. Right if ifDumbledore had been more of a mentor or

(45:40):
ally with him when he was younger, would he have still made some of
the decisions that he made? Right? And I think that's true testament to
like who you surround yourself with andhow they support you is going to cause
a huge impact on your life.I know I am not the person who
would be without some very important peoplein my life who helped me become who

(46:02):
I am. So I think that, you know, all of that is
such a message she's giving. She'sjust giving us this huge message in this
chapter and showing you in real likeshowing you an example of how all of
that plays out positively and not sopositively. But I mean, the biggest

(46:25):
takeaway beyond all that is the factthat we get confirmation that Harry is a
horror cross. Right. He hasa part of Valdimore in him, and
that is why one cannot live whilethe other survives, right like he cannot
kill Valdimore while he is still alive. Well, and I think you know
in all of this too, youknow again we see that Snape is still

(46:51):
always driven by his love for Lily. You know, his patronus is the
dough and he's always loved her andhe always will and and that is the
BLA is one of those big takeawaysyou see everywhere all the time about this
book. It is that simple statementof always that level of unconditional love that

(47:12):
he had for Lily, and howhe would he spent his entire life to
honoring her well. And I meanhe's a part of I mean he's the
one who gives confront He confunds Madongasto have him go back to the Order
and help save Harry, leaving mby giving them the idea of the decoys.
You know. Um, we alsosee that, you know, Snape

(47:36):
hitting George on that journey was anaccident. He was actually aiming for a
death eater and and got George instead. You know. Um, we see
the fact that the leftover letter atthe house at Grimwald Place was actually Lily
writing about how she had heard aboutGarrett Grindelwald being friends with the Baldore and

(48:00):
she doesn't think that was possible.And you know, he takes that part
of the letter because it says lotsof love Lily. He rips up the
picture with Harry and his father init that has her and it's smiling,
and he keeps that, you know. And then of course, like you
said, he is the one whodelivers the sword to Harry and allows them

(48:21):
to be able to destroy the Horcrux. And you know, so we leave
this chapter with having an understanding ofthis very flawed character who must live with
the repercussions of their early actions inlife and suffer because of them. Like
it, you know, his lifeis suffering, His life is pain because

(48:43):
he chose a certain way at thebeginning of his life and he can never
escape that. And I think there'sa real beauty to that, because I
think too many people in our worlddon't want to deal with the repercussions of
their actions. And Harry Potter showsus here so well as a storyline that

(49:07):
you can't. You are always goingto be struggling, you know, with
the choices that you make and theconsequences of those choices actions. Yeah,
we definitely, we definitely live ina world where the consequences of our actions

(49:29):
are more often I don't want tosay justified, they're more often excused,
and I don't mean excused, Imean excused away then are accepted and dealt
with. Right. I think evenin political situations here in the United States,

(49:50):
we can see how people aren't willingto accept the consequences of the decisions
they make, right. They area thousand percent willing to make it someone
else fault or justify it or whatever. And I think that that is so
true in just society, in general, we don't want to have to deal
with that, right we unless it'sblack and white, we find a way

(50:15):
to not have to live with that. And that is so hard and makes
it so, it makes it soI don't know, I feel like it's
not I feel like it's the wayour world is going, and that it's
about ourselves and not about everyone else. And I think Harry Potter is really

(50:37):
saying that you have to be thoughtfulabout how your consequences impact other people and
how they impact the world around you, right, and you can't really escape
it. And if you do somethingthat well you shouldn't have done that,
you really should have to live withthose consequences. Which is why for me,
Snape becomes such a redeemed character becausehe honestly is he accepts it,

(51:02):
right, He doesn't like it.I'm not saying we all have to like
our consequences, but he accepts themand does what he needs to do with
them, right and kind of finda way to live with them. So
I think this is just such abig chapter and it really does tell you

(51:22):
so much about Snape. And Iremember reading some interesting article how Alan Rickman,
when he was cast as Snape,he was told this about his character
early on in the series is filmingbecause they wanted him to have context for
his character as he acted it out, and I can see it. Right.

(51:47):
I think Alan Rickman is one ofmy favorite things about the Harry Potter
series, Like him and Maggie Smithare two of my favorite parts of the
Harry Potter series. And I thinkthat that is just so. I think
that that's here's where we all getthat context and it creates so much depth

(52:07):
to a character that could easily justbe evil. Right. I think the
other thing this does is it showsthat not everything in the world is black
and white, right, Like,he made really terrible decisions that fell into
that category, but he also thenmade decisions that didn't fall into that category.
Right. You can't necessarily say Snapeis evil. You can say he

(52:29):
made bad choices and things he didwas evil, but I think when you
get down to the end, youcannot honestly say that the character of several
Snape is an evil character. Yeah. I think a couple of things.
One is that Snape himself is acharacter who is working towards redemption, right,

(52:55):
Like he's working, Yes, he'sdoing his penance to make up for
the for the evil choices he's made. And so he's good, is right.
He is constantly striving to be better. Yes, yes, And yet
what we do kind of see isthat, you know, he is a
character to which cannot overcome many ofthe prejudices and preconceived notions he has about

(53:19):
characters based off of things that havehappened, which is a little bit sad,
you know, like he is somebodywho can never truly overcome himself.
And again I think the bent towardsselfishness that he has, like even with

(53:40):
when it comes to Harry, youknow, we really see him being this
complex character who who just he cannotlet go of his hatred of of you
know, the fact that James tookLily away from him. And yet what
it really is, it's self hatred. Why because Serious is the one who

(54:00):
took Serious away. Severus is theone who took Severus away from Lily,
not the other way around. Andyou know that anger and hate I think
he just takes out on Harry,and again it's a it's a character fall
right to not truly this is theway in which Snape, I don't think

(54:22):
ever truly deals with the repercussions ofall of his choices in a healthy way,
and so this is what makes himhave an unhealthy relationship with Harry.
And so yeah, I think it'sjust really fascinating to be able to deconstruct
this character and really get to theroot of things as to who and why

(54:45):
he was. And again, likeyou, we said all the way back
to the beginning, severus choices havea massive impact on everyone in this series.
Yeah, I a thousand percent agreewith that, wholeheartedly agree with that,
And I feel like that makes Snapeso representative of the human condition,

(55:07):
right, Like we all struggle topush through these things all the time.
Right, Not all of us area Harry or a Harmione or a Dumbledore,
like we even Dumbledore sort of dealtwith some of what Snape's dealing with
in a different way with his timewith Grindowald and some of that. Right,
Like, he is not a perfectcharacter, nor are we perfect people.

(55:31):
Right. All we can do iscontinue to try to be better.
And all we can do is tryto remain objective and have a perspective on
how our biases and how our ownpersonal feelings are impacting our judgment. Right,
And that I think is a lifelongstruggle we have as human beings,

(55:54):
and I think that seeing it playout in Snape and seeing that even all
the way to the end he struggledto let go of those things that hurt
him so much, also show ushow much that does actually hurt you in
the long run, and how muchyou have to forgive and like go and
move on and trust and be vulnerable. I think that's the other thing Snape

(56:15):
never did with anybody but Dumbledore wasbut be vulnerable, right as if he
had been vulnerable with Harry, hemay have gotten slightly hurt, but he
also could have had a deep andenriching and lasting relationship with him and could
have impacted things for the better.So I think it's just Snape is such
a he's such a complex, flawedanti hero, and he's one of my

(56:39):
favorite anti heroes of all larger becausehe's so relatable that you love him and
you hate him and you can't empathizewith him, but you understand and like,
there's just so much into him thatthis chapter alone is one of my
all time favorites, where we reallyget to close a bunch of Easter eggs

(57:00):
and wrap up a bunch of storylines, and I think it really does cross
teas and dot eyes to almost thevery end of this journey, and it's
almost like we are being reward yeahthis because we've made it through all the
books, right, we stuck withit to get this amazing reward at the
end. So for me, II love hate the character of seeing Well

(57:22):
and I think the beauty of itis that, you know, you're kind
of talking about, you know,the way we kind of see some of
the ramifications of this in our worldtoday. But I think those ramifications play
out because people have chosen to livetheir life as Snape did early on,
right, and and so it reallydoes go to show that the values that

(57:47):
we choose to live by, evenfrom our earliest of ages, makes a
massive difference on what we are goingto be as human being as we get
older. And so, you knowit, it's kind of like a you
know, you train up a childthe way they should go when they're old,
they will not depart from it.And so I think it's really interesting

(58:08):
because the next chapter and the nextcouple of chapters were really going to get
into I think I would say,some more biblical illustrations, but she kind
of uses that as an illustration here, you know, is that the way
Snape was as a child, thechoices, the values which he decided to
live by, haunt him for therest of his life. And so I

(58:31):
think that's a wonderful challenge for usto even as you know myself and anyone
who's reading these books, it wouldever age like what values are you choosing
to live by? And are theyharming others and yourself all at the same
time, or are they something thathelp others? And so it's such a

(58:52):
it's a massive thing. Yeah,And to build on that, I kind
of touched on it earlier too,But like, you can't navigate all of
these choices alone either, right,Like you have to get a good group
of people. It's a whole youneed to trib right. That doesn't just

(59:13):
apply when you have a kid,like I learned, but that applies to
your whole life. You can youcannot come at everything with the perspective with
a universal, worldwide, global oreven just removed from yourself perspective without the
help of other people. And Ithink that too shows here how Snape had
the wrong people in that and asa child he had no people in that

(59:36):
right, as we talked about hisparents, and so I think that also
reminds you that you need to findthose people and those values that you align
with and they align with, andthat becomes how you work to be the
best version of yourself for the world, right. And I think that is
a massive message in this whole series, is that it takes a village,

(59:59):
it takes a tree, right,it takes all three perspectives to get this
right, and you're stronger together thanyou are on your own. And I
think that is a big takeaway heretoo, and that it'll help you remember
that all the things of this isn'tthis isn't the everything right. So this

(01:00:20):
is kind of a long episode,but I'll share a little personal thing here.
At the big in the middle ofall the COVID pandemics, we had
sort of a personal family tragedy happen. A younger member of our family lost
perspective on life and committed a reallyheinous crime against his wife and impacted the

(01:00:43):
rest of her family's life. Andyou know, he's going to spend the
next thirty years in jail and inhis twenties not being able to live life
because of a brash action he took, and he lost perspective. She lost
perspective, She felt lost and afraidand alone and like she couldn't find help.

(01:01:06):
He clearly didn't have enough perspective toask for help, and their whole
lives are ruined now. And Ithink we forget that it takes one thing
to ruin our lives. And tome, that is what Harry Potter shows
without having to personally experience that isthat it takes one horror, It takes

(01:01:27):
a series of horrible things built upinto one final act. In this case,
you know, Snape calling her amudblood to ruin your life, and
it plays out all the time,and you know, unfortunately our family had
to live it in a very tragicway, And so I hope others can
learn and not have to feel thesame way. Yeah, I mean it

(01:01:51):
is. I just think it's sodeep, you know, And it's what
makes this series, I think sogood, is the fact that you can
have these type of discussions, andI love I think it's a perfect way
to end by saying, yes,you have to have community, and the
community you choose to be a partof is going to shape who you are

(01:02:13):
going to become, but we're notmeant to live life alone. And I
think absolutely, And that's funny howthat is a theme that plays all the
way back from the very first book. Harry chooses the community to live in.
He chooses to say no to Malfoyand say yes to Ron and Hermione
right, and it makes all thedifference in his life. I think the

(01:02:37):
phrasing is exactly. There are somewizarding families that are better than others.
You you know, I can helpyou find out which one is right,
And Harry says, I think Ican choose for myself. Right. That
goes back to what like chapter fouror five of the first book, like
very very beginning, she's been tellingus this message. So yeah, I

(01:02:58):
know, I totally percent agree withthat. Well, we have big chapters
left, obviously, only five episodesof the show left, so we're really
excited to dive into those. ButDrea, this has been a massive episode
for everybody. I hope you've enjoyedit as we've finally got a chance to
talk through snape and if people wantto catch up with you and see what

(01:03:21):
you've got going on, or maybetalk about the fact that we've actually gotten
to talk all about snape. Now, where can they find you? Yeah,
come share your thoughts with me.I'm on Twitter at pcf check or
on Instagram more often than Twitter atDreya Kaufman and it's COOFMN and you could
find me all over the place onsocial media under Matt Rushing zero two.

(01:03:44):
You could find me here on thenetwork doing aggressive negotiations with John Mills.
We're talking through Star Wars each andevery week together. You can find me
over on the TFM network doing abunch of shows ones called the six or
two Club, where we're talking aboutall of the fandoms we love. Of
course, also, John Mills andI have been doing a bonus podcast there
called Snyder Cuts, as we're workingtowards Zack Snyder's Justice League, So I

(01:04:05):
hope you will join us there.It's been a really interesting journey, especially
as John has slowly become more ofa Snyder fan than he thought he might
be in the beginning. We're alsodoing Larry Treks as well as The ORB
over there. Larry Tricks is aboutthe books the comics of Star Trek,
and the ORB is about Star Trekd Space nine. But thank you so

(01:04:26):
much for checking your outpost. It'sjust managed. Join the Revolution, Join

(01:04:50):
the Nerd Party.