March 24, 2021 • 27 mins
The Forest Again.
As Harry comes out of Snape's memories he has a clarity about his life and his mission that he never expected to have.
In this episode of Owl Post: A Harry Potter Podcast hosts Andrea Coffman and Matthew Rushing talk about the thirty-fourth chapter of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. We discuss a strange realization, belief system, small moments, needing Neville, seeing Ginny, the Resurrection Stone and the end.
Hosts
Andrea Coffman and Matthew Rushing
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Subscribe in Apple Podcasts
As Harry comes out of Snape's memories he has a clarity about his life and his mission that he never expected to have.
In this episode of Owl Post: A Harry Potter Podcast hosts Andrea Coffman and Matthew Rushing talk about the thirty-fourth chapter of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. We discuss a strange realization, belief system, small moments, needing Neville, seeing Ginny, the Resurrection Stone and the end.
Hosts
Andrea Coffman and Matthew Rushing
Send us your feedback!
Twitter: @JoinNerdParty
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thenerdparty
Email: http://www.thenerdparty.com/contact
Subscribe in Apple Podcasts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to the ned polity, AhMiles Day, your outbows for the week
(00:24):
is freshly delivered, and I amjust one of the hosts here. Matthew
rushing and with me as she's beenthrough this entire journey, is the one,
the only, the extremely patient DreaKaufman. I don't think patient does
the term I've already is to describeme, So I'll take it. No,
as someone pointed out last week's episode, they were super deeper looking forward
(00:47):
to that episode. I think,you know, it also highlights how many
or how few more chapters we havein this journey, and a lot of
people reach out to say what's next. So I think we have a little
bit of you know, it's abitter suite ending we're wrapping up to you.
But it's good. It's been avery long journey, as you highlight
(01:08):
in a good way. Yeah.Um, as a you know the theme
song for Star Trek Enterprise said it'sbeen a long road getting from there to
here, so um and more oras Journey said it's or Boston said it's
it's yeah, so uh no,it's it is really exciting, like I
can't wait, you know, toto be done. Um, in this
(01:30):
sense that it's so much fun tojust get to this point. Like everything
in this entire series obviously has beenbuilding up to these last few chapters,
and so it's just exciting to finallyget there. So before we do that,
of course, don't forget. Youcould find us wherever you get your
podcasts, if you happen to beon Apple Podcasts, give us a starving
(01:51):
review, let people know how youlike the show. And in fact,
Dreya, we do have another newreview, and so like to thank that
person for giving their review and readthe review out here, because that's what
you get when you give us areview, and so this one says thank
you five stars. As we're closingoff this incredible series, I wanted to
(02:13):
say how incredibly grateful I am toMatt Andrea. I have had one of
the hardest years of my life,and everything Harry Potter has been a bit
of an escape. None of myfriends or family read the books, so
it's so refreshing to have someone bethere on the same page with me with
all things. Harry Potter, thankyou for your time and your perspective on
it all. I'm thankful to havebeen on this journey with you guys,
(02:35):
stay blessed, love and a gratefulfan Maria, And you know what,
Mariah, we are just super gladto have been here for you. And
I would say, you know,it's been definitely a terrible year, I
think for everyone, but we're excitedto have been any kind of happiness to
anyone with that, and you know, there, I really appreciate feeling heard.
(03:00):
I think that's something that a lotof people struggle with, and especially
in the last year, I thinkit's been particularly hard without being able to
sort of congregate safely and find thatsense of fellowship. So I'm really happy
to be a part of that virtuallyfor you all. So I'm glad to
hear that we could. You could. And that's point be a small bright
spot and a really challenging couple ofeighteen years or so and a strange I
(03:24):
think, you know, in somany ways. How I think this series
Harry Potter is a great reflection onhow we make it through difficult situations.
You know, like every year Harry'sthrown into the fire as almost and almost
died sometimes lately so Dragonfire. Soit's um, it is really neat,
(03:49):
you know, this series I thinkdoes a great job with that, and
that's where we're going to be withthe chapter this week. Of course,
you know, make sure he subscribeso you get the podcast as soon as
it drops as we're wrapping everything up. You can also find us online at
Join nerd Party on Twitter, onFacebook and Facebook dot com, slash and
the Nerdparty nerdparty dot com, whereyou can check out all the shows we're
(04:10):
doing. Plus of course you cansend us a email over at nerdparty dot
com slash contact. So we're inchapter thirty four the Forest again, and
it's really interesting to me because asHarry comes to after being in the memories,
all of these memories and of courseVoldemort's last you know, proclamation there,
(04:38):
Harry understands everything now and it's thisstrange realization in some ways, like
all of the frustration he's had withDumbledore, all of the frustration he's had
through this whole book of trying tofigure everything out, it all clicks in
his brain, like everything finally makessense as to why Dumbledore did the things
(05:03):
he did with Harry that you know, even Snape, like everything about his
life and this realization that neither isneither of them is going to survive,
Like, it's not about whether hesurvives or Voldemort survives. It's about the
fact that both of them have togo because a part of him, you
(05:24):
know, Voldemort lives in him,and that the I mean, how how
do you comprehend the idea that,no, you were basically born to die,
you know in some ways. Soit's it's just like we were talking
(05:44):
about a little bit this before recording, but this chapter is just all the
emotion of what Harry is feeling ashe is walking as a lamb to the
slaughter, like there's no choice.I find it so interesting because I think
they're so two people like you andI. Right, Matt, there isn't
a choice, right, Like theright thing to do is to die,
(06:09):
right like you, That's that thereisn't a choice for us. But when
you listen to the prophecy, thereis a choice, right Like, they
both could die, right like,they could find he could find a way
where Baltimore and him die. Buthe knows the situation well enough to know
(06:30):
that he would never make Baltimore wouldnever make that sacrifice, right. Baltimore
would never kill himself in order,would never sacrifice himself the way that Harry's
going to right, And I thinkthat's so interesting and I think it's a
good We've talked a lot about howthey're very similar in their upbringing and beliefs,
which now kind of makes sense,right, some of those those parallels
they both can talk to snakes makessense. Why. Um, But I
(06:57):
think this is that that moment whereit's we talk a lot about the decisions
that set them apart, and thisis the way they interpret that is what
sets them apart. Harry says thatthere's no choice and Valtimore says, well,
he has to be sure. Onehas to die. I'm not going
to die, right. I thinkit's just so interesting when you think about
that and think about it as thereare two sides of the same coin.
(07:20):
They're going to choose the opposite interpretation. Whenever there's the opportunity, they're going
to choose opposite of each other.So yeah, but yeah, like you
had said, we talked a lotabout how this is just a very emoting
chapter full of all the fields,and I will admit to tearing up a
little bit. Even though I've readthis half a dozen times, I still
(07:42):
sort of teared up. As thechapter progresses, you know, I can
relate and would would probably feel thesame way. He Harry says at one
point, like there will be nogoodbyes, there will be no explaining myself.
I'm gonna go quietly and to thenight, and no one's gonna know.
Um. And I think I wouldprobably do the same thing, if
(08:07):
I'm honest, because I wouldn't wantto have to defend myself. I wouldn't
want the sort of pity looks youget from you know. I wouldn't want
to deal feel the burden of dealingwith the emotional response of my loved ones.
I would rather they have that withoutme. It's almost a selfish thing.
But for me, it's like Iwould do the same thing. I
would totally just wander off and nottell anybody. Well, when I'd stop
(08:30):
and tell my friend to kill agiant snake, but I mean, for
the most part, I just wanderoff with that. You know. It's
such a fascinating thing. And whatI find most interesting about this whole thing.
We were talking again a little bitbefore we're recording. But one of
the things that yeah, we shouldyou think, you know, it just
happens. So one of the thingsthat is really fascinating about this is this
(08:54):
is where JK. Rollings cards beginto show this chapter as to Um the
belief system to which she holds.She's talked about this before and interviews you
know, um that you know,she grew up in the Church of Scotland
and it's always been difficult for herto believe. But if anybody kind of
(09:16):
wants to know what she believes,it's worked out here at the end of
Harry Potter Um. And there's aninteresting thing here where you know, Harry
is in many ways, there's thispredestination paradox right that she's been playing out
(09:37):
throughout the entire series, and tome, it's been one of them the
best outworkings of what predestination means inliterature to how that works. Like Dumbledore
knew that that Harry would not sayno, and and and so, um,
Harry was always going to be theone in the end, you know,
(10:00):
because of all the things that havehappened. And it works out even
more so in the next chapter wherewe finally have the conversation but spoiler alert,
um, and it's just, uh, it's just so interesting though to
see that work out, and youknow, Harry walks kind of willingly into
(10:20):
the forest, like you said,like there there is a hesitation. He
doesn't want to die, right likeit, And and there's obviously the links
with the Garden of Guest sentiment andJesus and like not wanting to die,
but he's going to do it anyway, you know. Like so there there's
all of these beautiful things, andyou know, I literally liked the small
(10:41):
moments that we did get in thecastle before he leaves, you know,
and he's got the cloak on andhe almost runs into Neville who's helping oliver
Wood, which is so much funto see him back, except that oliver
Wood is carrying Colin Creevy who's died, and you're just like, oh,
it's so heartbreaking, you know,like especially when she describes him so tiny
(11:01):
in death. You're like, oh, terrible, it's terrible. Yeah.
This chapter definitely, you know,makes me cry every time too. Um,
but I love that, you know, he talks to Neville like he
needs somebody else other than Ron andHermione. Who know, because the one
thing that Bimbledore didn't plan for wasthat there would still be one Horcrux left.
(11:26):
And then it's Neguini and so,um, what we have here is
we have even though Harry's going togo die, there's still going to be
a job left to do and he'snot going to be there to do it.
And so he needs somebody else otherthan Ron and Hermione to know what
needs to be done. And he'sso he tells nevill Uh scares him to
(11:48):
death first, but then tells him, you know, you know the snake,
Um, that snake needs to bekilled, and if Ron and Hermione
are busy, it needs to bedone. But yeah, I like how
he hesitates. He doesn't want tosay killed because you know, he knows
he's going to his death. Hedoesn't need to take the time and the
emotional impact of talking about his Framley. I love that term, by the
(12:11):
way, Framley dying, right,So you know he has to put it
in a way that doesn't invoke thatemotional response from him, right. So
he says like, if they're they'rebusy, He kind of struggles to come
up with with why they wouldn't beable to kill the snake. But yeah,
I think, yeah, I thinkit's it's so much. I think
(12:33):
Harry's response in this entire chapter isit's something that we can all learn from,
right, Like, there are somany things that happen to us in
life that are scary, but thatdoesn't mean that we can't be brave and
do the right thing. Like braveryis not the absence of fear. It's
the act of doing the right thingwhen you're afraid, like, regardless,
(12:56):
regardless of how you're feeling. RightAnd so I think that's exactly what Harry
does here. Is you never You'renever painted as this sort of you know,
super human ability to not to beunfeeling right like he's not. He's
not void to what's happening. Hejust knows and accepts the fact that that's
(13:16):
the right thing to do. Whenhe's made his decision and he's going to
do what he feels needs to happen, even if it's terrible for him and
scary, right and he is planningthat this is all that life will have
for him, right Like, thisis it and he has to make that
decision quickly and amongst a plot ofchaos. And I mean, we've all
(13:41):
maybe we all aren't fighting giant magicalbattles for the existence of our our race,
but you know, we all arein the situation where we have to
make a quick decision that's scary andbe brave. And I think this is
a good reminder, especially when youtalked about this being a young adult book,
(14:01):
right, like, this is agood message to young adults that like,
it's scary and that's okay, youcan do it. You can still
do it, and the people aroundyou are there to help you, which
you get with him opening them syeah, no, I mean I agree
with you, and I think youknow, there's that there's that really beautiful
(14:22):
moment where you know, he's seeingJenny, who's helping this young girl who's
scared, and um, yeah,and it's it, And there's this moment
like he would want to go home, and yet he is home, like
Hogworks is his home. And justlike Snape and just like Voldemort, he
(14:43):
was that abandoned boy who had noother place to go, who had found
a home at school, you know, who would who had found a family.
You know that he did not expect, you know, And I think
there's such a beauty to that,and I love that, you know,
as he goes to walk out tothe forest, he's walking past Hagrid's house,
(15:07):
He's kind of remembering, you know, some of the times there,
you know, with Norbert and allthe craziness that happened with Hagrid at his
house. And you know, thenhe remembers, as he sees the fact
that their dementors swirling around, heremembers that he has the snitch and he
realizes what's in there, and sohe kisses it and he says, you
(15:28):
know, I'm about to die,and it's the resurrection stone, and he
turns that stone. It gets meevery time when his parents show up and
so to loopen and serious, it'sjust so gorgeous that they're there for him.
And this is a moment too whereshe really is kind of i think
(15:48):
alluding to some scripture in the Bookof Hebrews and the New Testament. It
talks about having a great cloud ofwitnesses as that have gone before you,
and that there are still there andthat they're cheering you on basically in heaven,
and this idea like that's what he'sgot, and that the de mentors
as he's walking to have no effecton him, that they that there's this
(16:11):
shield that he has, and it'sjust such a beautiful thing, you know,
to have his parents be able totalk to him and tell him how
proud they are of him. Youknow, um gosh, the conversation he
has with Lupin is just absolutely heartbreakingabout you know, the fact that Teddy
won't get to know his father.That in the end, Teddy is just
(16:33):
like Harry at this point and it'sjust it's you're immediately you know, the
last chapter with so much in it, but this chapter really allows you that
space to be smacked upside the headwith all of the emotion and all of
the fields and damn if I don'thave all of them even right now.
(16:55):
Yeah, I mean, taking thisfrom not a religious perspective, there's still
so much to take away, right, like not having the frame of reference
that you're you know, you're you'retalking about. Even so, I think
from a different perspective, it saysthe same message essentially, right, like
(17:17):
it that those who have left arenever truly gone, right, They still
always cause an impact, and thoughtheir lives are you know, like you're
still you're still loved and support iteven after they go, right, Like,
maybe you can't have quite the levelof conversation with them that we had
(17:37):
in this book. It wasn't quitea literal, but you know, like
the fact that those were the exactpeople he needed to hold his hand as
he made this decision, like sayssomething, and it says something that Dumbledore
is not among them, right,he needed emotional love and care from his
(18:00):
family, right, which to himare the four people who presented him themselves.
Right. So it's intense. Um, and I did like that one
of his big fears at the beginningof the chapter, he just straight up
asks it here, right, likedoes it hurt? Because that was when
(18:22):
we start the chapter. That waslike one of the first two or three
thoughts he has is like is itgoing to hurt? I don't know what
it's gonna be, Like what whatdo I prepare for? Right? Um?
And you know, they have likea little conversation about it, like
no, it's like falling asleep andthey're like, no, he wants this
over quickly, like he's not goingto drag this out, like you don't
have anything to worry about. Umit you know, it also shows like
(18:48):
you need to you need to allowyourself to be vulnerable and ask those questions
when you all are supported, right, Like what's he got to lose?
Right? Like they might say,well, I don't know, or yes,
it's gonna hurt, Like is thatreally gonna change his mind? No,
he at least now knows what right, um. And I think the
(19:15):
way he kind of I don't know, the way that this confrontation, if
he will, plays out in thebook feels more real than the movie.
In the movie adds some sort oflike it almost has like a grandeur to
it. Right. He steps into this big clearing in the field and
(19:37):
it's like his big stance, right, And in this he just kind of
is himself right, like he's humblythere and he's he's almost a little bit
snarky, like we've come to loveum. And it's like over, yeah,
it just yeah. No. Ireally like the way it does happen,
(20:00):
Like you said, you know thatit's over very quickly. Um.
I think the most important thing thatwe get here was the picture of you
know, um, Lucius and Narcissaand malf Away and them all looking very
defeated and you know, kind ofnot a part of this. And of
course Haggard being there, he's tiedto a tree and he's screaming no,
(20:23):
no, no, you can't dothis, and there's such a beauty and
the fact that Harry's last thought isJinny, and in many ways, you
know, you can you can realizethe reason why why, Because because this
is the life that he wanted.He wanted the life with her, but
(20:45):
he's giving up his life so shecan have a life. And it's just
it's so wonderfully beautiful to watch thishappen and to read this, and you
know, and then it's done,you know, and we have the next
chapter, King's Cross, and sobut I think this, I think one
of the things that this chapter does, even though it's short, it proves
(21:08):
how well she's written this story thateven after I've read it, probably at
least seven to eighty nine, whoknows how many times, that I could
still be this emotional about these charactersand what happened in this chapter, even
though I know what happens. AndI think part of that is because and
(21:33):
for me personally, it is becauseshe's telling a story to which is an
allusion to a greater story to whichI hold to be true and means more
to me than anything else. AndI think that's one of the reasons why
this story has so much power,is because we all respond to a story
of extreme self sacrifice for the benefitof others, and there's nothing more powerful
(21:59):
than that type of story. That'swhat our greatest heroes do, right,
They sacrifice themselves. And it's thebest message. It's still the best message.
Yeah, I think you know,it's universally relatable and you can take
the pieces from it that resonate themost with you, right you can take
(22:21):
the story as she intends it andas you know you're referring to here.
But even if that's not what yousubscribe to, there's still so much to
take away from it. Right.It's it's powerful without being you know,
preachy, right like, which iswhich is nobody even people who believe in
the highest power and our religious don'tnecessarily want to be preached at so,
(22:44):
you know, like at least notby the park or without choice, right
Like, there there's context for that. But you know, I think it
is it's powerful, and I thinkthe one thing we skimmed over a little
bit that that stood out to mein this chapter two that straight up doesn't
exist in the movie, is thatwe get Valdimore kind of questioning himself too,
right, which the movie character wouldnever show that kind of weakness,
(23:08):
and it's a little out of characterto show how surprised he is, because
he even says, like I trulybelieved he was going to come when they
all thought Harry wasn't coming. Right, even he's like, I could have
sworn he would have come. Andhe's sort of taken aback himself and confused
why his grand evil master plan didn'tplay out the way he thought it did,
(23:32):
and then it did right, butnot for the reasons he thinks it.
It is right. He hasn't necessarilyone with this sort of arrogant feeling
he does. But yeah, Ithink I think it's interesting. It's it's
a full it's a full chapter,but not a long chapter, and important
(23:56):
things happen, but not a lotof things happen. It's not like the
last one where it's super dents.This is one very very important thing that
happens and us having to kind ofIt's like when you're in an important conversation
everyone gets very quiet and there's justthis silence. It's kind of what this
chapter is. You've been given thishuge chunk of information at the end of
(24:18):
the last chapter. Most of thischapter is just silence and what do you
do with that? And then abig thing right at the end that will
now have to go into and processwhat has happened at the in the next
chapter, you know, I yeah, I definitely agree, And I think
again, it just shows her prowessas an author, Like she knows exactly
(24:40):
what she's doing with this chapter.She knows exactly what she's doing, and
I think she needed to give youall of that information at in the last
chapter. And this one is theemotional gut punch, like just legitimately,
it's just it's like somebody just punchedyou in the face. So yeah,
(25:04):
so I love it and I cannotwait. You know, we we were
discussing the fact that there are onlythree things left. There are two chapters
in an epilogue, and then we'llhave our wrap up episode and will be
done. So it's insane that that'sthe case. But Drea, if anybody
wants to cry along with you hereon social media or see what else you've
(25:26):
got going on, where can theyfind you? Yes, if you want
to bring some tissues to the tablehere, or if you if you want
to talk about Matt and I's lastconversation outside of al post which he invited
me to join him on the sixo two Clubs, so that will probably
be live by them two. Youcan find me on Twitter at pcf check
(25:49):
or on Instagram at Drea Kaufman andit's CFMN and you could find me all
over social media under Matt Rushing zerotwo. Of course I'm here on the
network doing negotiations with John Mills asevery week we talk about Star Wars,
which is a lot of fun onthe TFM network. Of course, like
Dreya said, doing the six ortwo club which has been a blast.
We did just cover together with ChristySuper eight by JJ Abrams, so that
(26:15):
go check that out. It wasa great conversation about that film and it
was super fun to have Drea backthere and yeah, it was UM and
both you know, because it's it'smirroring both um. But you could also
find me there in that same feeddoing starter cuts with John Mills as we
talk about every single thing Zack Snyder'sdirected, and by this point of this
(26:38):
episode dropping his Justice leagu will beout and everybody will have seen it and
we will have talked about it.So you can listen to that and check
that out. You can also findme doing two other shows there. One
is called the Orb and the otheris Literary Treks. The Orbs about Star
Trek tis Base nine, and thenLiterary Trecks is about the books and the
commis of Star Trek. But thankyou so much for checking your outpost.
(27:03):
It's definitely join the revolution, Jointhe Nerd Party.
Welcome to the ned polity, AhMiles Day, your outbows for the week
(00:24):
is freshly delivered, and I amjust one of the hosts here. Matthew
rushing and with me as she's beenthrough this entire journey, is the one,
the only, the extremely patient DreaKaufman. I don't think patient does
the term I've already is to describeme, So I'll take it. No,
as someone pointed out last week's episode, they were super deeper looking forward
(00:47):
to that episode. I think,you know, it also highlights how many
or how few more chapters we havein this journey, and a lot of
people reach out to say what's next. So I think we have a little
bit of you know, it's abitter suite ending we're wrapping up to you.
But it's good. It's been avery long journey, as you highlight
(01:08):
in a good way. Yeah.Um, as a you know the theme
song for Star Trek Enterprise said it'sbeen a long road getting from there to
here, so um and more oras Journey said it's or Boston said it's
it's yeah, so uh no,it's it is really exciting, like I
can't wait, you know, toto be done. Um, in this
(01:30):
sense that it's so much fun tojust get to this point. Like everything
in this entire series obviously has beenbuilding up to these last few chapters,
and so it's just exciting to finallyget there. So before we do that,
of course, don't forget. Youcould find us wherever you get your
podcasts, if you happen to beon Apple Podcasts, give us a starving
(01:51):
review, let people know how youlike the show. And in fact,
Dreya, we do have another newreview, and so like to thank that
person for giving their review and readthe review out here, because that's what
you get when you give us areview, and so this one says thank
you five stars. As we're closingoff this incredible series, I wanted to
(02:13):
say how incredibly grateful I am toMatt Andrea. I have had one of
the hardest years of my life,and everything Harry Potter has been a bit
of an escape. None of myfriends or family read the books, so
it's so refreshing to have someone bethere on the same page with me with
all things. Harry Potter, thankyou for your time and your perspective on
it all. I'm thankful to havebeen on this journey with you guys,
(02:35):
stay blessed, love and a gratefulfan Maria, And you know what,
Mariah, we are just super gladto have been here for you. And
I would say, you know,it's been definitely a terrible year, I
think for everyone, but we're excitedto have been any kind of happiness to
anyone with that, and you know, there, I really appreciate feeling heard.
(03:00):
I think that's something that a lotof people struggle with, and especially
in the last year, I thinkit's been particularly hard without being able to
sort of congregate safely and find thatsense of fellowship. So I'm really happy
to be a part of that virtuallyfor you all. So I'm glad to
hear that we could. You could. And that's point be a small bright
spot and a really challenging couple ofeighteen years or so and a strange I
(03:24):
think, you know, in somany ways. How I think this series
Harry Potter is a great reflection onhow we make it through difficult situations.
You know, like every year Harry'sthrown into the fire as almost and almost
died sometimes lately so Dragonfire. Soit's um, it is really neat,
(03:49):
you know, this series I thinkdoes a great job with that, and
that's where we're going to be withthe chapter this week. Of course,
you know, make sure he subscribeso you get the podcast as soon as
it drops as we're wrapping everything up. You can also find us online at
Join nerd Party on Twitter, onFacebook and Facebook dot com, slash and
the Nerdparty nerdparty dot com, whereyou can check out all the shows we're
(04:10):
doing. Plus of course you cansend us a email over at nerdparty dot
com slash contact. So we're inchapter thirty four the Forest again, and
it's really interesting to me because asHarry comes to after being in the memories,
all of these memories and of courseVoldemort's last you know, proclamation there,
(04:38):
Harry understands everything now and it's thisstrange realization in some ways, like
all of the frustration he's had withDumbledore, all of the frustration he's had
through this whole book of trying tofigure everything out, it all clicks in
his brain, like everything finally makessense as to why Dumbledore did the things
(05:03):
he did with Harry that you know, even Snape, like everything about his
life and this realization that neither isneither of them is going to survive,
Like, it's not about whether hesurvives or Voldemort survives. It's about the
fact that both of them have togo because a part of him, you
(05:24):
know, Voldemort lives in him,and that the I mean, how how
do you comprehend the idea that,no, you were basically born to die,
you know in some ways. Soit's it's just like we were talking
(05:44):
about a little bit this before recording, but this chapter is just all the
emotion of what Harry is feeling ashe is walking as a lamb to the
slaughter, like there's no choice.I find it so interesting because I think
they're so two people like you andI. Right, Matt, there isn't
a choice, right, Like theright thing to do is to die,
(06:09):
right like you, That's that thereisn't a choice for us. But when
you listen to the prophecy, thereis a choice, right Like, they
both could die, right like,they could find he could find a way
where Baltimore and him die. Buthe knows the situation well enough to know
(06:30):
that he would never make Baltimore wouldnever make that sacrifice, right. Baltimore
would never kill himself in order,would never sacrifice himself the way that Harry's
going to right, And I thinkthat's so interesting and I think it's a
good We've talked a lot about howthey're very similar in their upbringing and beliefs,
which now kind of makes sense,right, some of those those parallels
they both can talk to snakes makessense. Why. Um, But I
(06:57):
think this is that that moment whereit's we talk a lot about the decisions
that set them apart, and thisis the way they interpret that is what
sets them apart. Harry says thatthere's no choice and Valtimore says, well,
he has to be sure. Onehas to die. I'm not going
to die, right. I thinkit's just so interesting when you think about
that and think about it as thereare two sides of the same coin.
(07:20):
They're going to choose the opposite interpretation. Whenever there's the opportunity, they're going
to choose opposite of each other.So yeah, but yeah, like you
had said, we talked a lotabout how this is just a very emoting
chapter full of all the fields,and I will admit to tearing up a
little bit. Even though I've readthis half a dozen times, I still
(07:42):
sort of teared up. As thechapter progresses, you know, I can
relate and would would probably feel thesame way. He Harry says at one
point, like there will be nogoodbyes, there will be no explaining myself.
I'm gonna go quietly and to thenight, and no one's gonna know.
Um. And I think I wouldprobably do the same thing, if
(08:07):
I'm honest, because I wouldn't wantto have to defend myself. I wouldn't
want the sort of pity looks youget from you know. I wouldn't want
to deal feel the burden of dealingwith the emotional response of my loved ones.
I would rather they have that withoutme. It's almost a selfish thing.
But for me, it's like Iwould do the same thing. I
would totally just wander off and nottell anybody. Well, when I'd stop
(08:30):
and tell my friend to kill agiant snake, but I mean, for
the most part, I just wanderoff with that. You know. It's
such a fascinating thing. And whatI find most interesting about this whole thing.
We were talking again a little bitbefore we're recording. But one of
the things that yeah, we shouldyou think, you know, it just
happens. So one of the thingsthat is really fascinating about this is this
(08:54):
is where JK. Rollings cards beginto show this chapter as to Um the
belief system to which she holds.She's talked about this before and interviews you
know, um that you know,she grew up in the Church of Scotland
and it's always been difficult for herto believe. But if anybody kind of
(09:16):
wants to know what she believes,it's worked out here at the end of
Harry Potter Um. And there's aninteresting thing here where you know, Harry
is in many ways, there's thispredestination paradox right that she's been playing out
(09:37):
throughout the entire series, and tome, it's been one of them the
best outworkings of what predestination means inliterature to how that works. Like Dumbledore
knew that that Harry would not sayno, and and and so, um,
Harry was always going to be theone in the end, you know,
(10:00):
because of all the things that havehappened. And it works out even
more so in the next chapter wherewe finally have the conversation but spoiler alert,
um, and it's just, uh, it's just so interesting though to
see that work out, and youknow, Harry walks kind of willingly into
(10:20):
the forest, like you said,like there there is a hesitation. He
doesn't want to die, right likeit, And and there's obviously the links
with the Garden of Guest sentiment andJesus and like not wanting to die,
but he's going to do it anyway, you know. Like so there there's
all of these beautiful things, andyou know, I literally liked the small
(10:41):
moments that we did get in thecastle before he leaves, you know,
and he's got the cloak on andhe almost runs into Neville who's helping oliver
Wood, which is so much funto see him back, except that oliver
Wood is carrying Colin Creevy who's died, and you're just like, oh,
it's so heartbreaking, you know,like especially when she describes him so tiny
(11:01):
in death. You're like, oh, terrible, it's terrible. Yeah.
This chapter definitely, you know,makes me cry every time too. Um,
but I love that, you know, he talks to Neville like he
needs somebody else other than Ron andHermione. Who know, because the one
thing that Bimbledore didn't plan for wasthat there would still be one Horcrux left.
(11:26):
And then it's Neguini and so,um, what we have here is
we have even though Harry's going togo die, there's still going to be
a job left to do and he'snot going to be there to do it.
And so he needs somebody else otherthan Ron and Hermione to know what
needs to be done. And he'sso he tells nevill Uh scares him to
(11:48):
death first, but then tells him, you know, you know the snake,
Um, that snake needs to bekilled, and if Ron and Hermione
are busy, it needs to bedone. But yeah, I like how
he hesitates. He doesn't want tosay killed because you know, he knows
he's going to his death. Hedoesn't need to take the time and the
emotional impact of talking about his Framley. I love that term, by the
(12:11):
way, Framley dying, right,So you know he has to put it
in a way that doesn't invoke thatemotional response from him, right. So
he says like, if they're they'rebusy, He kind of struggles to come
up with with why they wouldn't beable to kill the snake. But yeah,
I think, yeah, I thinkit's it's so much. I think
(12:33):
Harry's response in this entire chapter isit's something that we can all learn from,
right, Like, there are somany things that happen to us in
life that are scary, but thatdoesn't mean that we can't be brave and
do the right thing. Like braveryis not the absence of fear. It's
the act of doing the right thingwhen you're afraid, like, regardless,
(12:56):
regardless of how you're feeling. RightAnd so I think that's exactly what Harry
does here. Is you never You'renever painted as this sort of you know,
super human ability to not to beunfeeling right like he's not. He's
not void to what's happening. Hejust knows and accepts the fact that that's
(13:16):
the right thing to do. Whenhe's made his decision and he's going to
do what he feels needs to happen, even if it's terrible for him and
scary, right and he is planningthat this is all that life will have
for him, right Like, thisis it and he has to make that
decision quickly and amongst a plot ofchaos. And I mean, we've all
(13:41):
maybe we all aren't fighting giant magicalbattles for the existence of our our race,
but you know, we all arein the situation where we have to
make a quick decision that's scary andbe brave. And I think this is
a good reminder, especially when youtalked about this being a young adult book,
(14:01):
right, like, this is agood message to young adults that like,
it's scary and that's okay, youcan do it. You can still
do it, and the people aroundyou are there to help you, which
you get with him opening them syeah, no, I mean I agree
with you, and I think youknow, there's that there's that really beautiful
(14:22):
moment where you know, he's seeingJenny, who's helping this young girl who's
scared, and um, yeah,and it's it, And there's this moment
like he would want to go home, and yet he is home, like
Hogworks is his home. And justlike Snape and just like Voldemort, he
(14:43):
was that abandoned boy who had noother place to go, who had found
a home at school, you know, who would who had found a family.
You know that he did not expect, you know, And I think
there's such a beauty to that,and I love that, you know,
as he goes to walk out tothe forest, he's walking past Hagrid's house,
(15:07):
He's kind of remembering, you know, some of the times there,
you know, with Norbert and allthe craziness that happened with Hagrid at his
house. And you know, thenhe remembers, as he sees the fact
that their dementors swirling around, heremembers that he has the snitch and he
realizes what's in there, and sohe kisses it and he says, you
(15:28):
know, I'm about to die,and it's the resurrection stone, and he
turns that stone. It gets meevery time when his parents show up and
so to loopen and serious, it'sjust so gorgeous that they're there for him.
And this is a moment too whereshe really is kind of i think
(15:48):
alluding to some scripture in the Bookof Hebrews and the New Testament. It
talks about having a great cloud ofwitnesses as that have gone before you,
and that there are still there andthat they're cheering you on basically in heaven,
and this idea like that's what he'sgot, and that the de mentors
as he's walking to have no effecton him, that they that there's this
(16:11):
shield that he has, and it'sjust such a beautiful thing, you know,
to have his parents be able totalk to him and tell him how
proud they are of him. Youknow, um gosh, the conversation he
has with Lupin is just absolutely heartbreakingabout you know, the fact that Teddy
won't get to know his father.That in the end, Teddy is just
(16:33):
like Harry at this point and it'sjust it's you're immediately you know, the
last chapter with so much in it, but this chapter really allows you that
space to be smacked upside the headwith all of the emotion and all of
the fields and damn if I don'thave all of them even right now.
(16:55):
Yeah, I mean, taking thisfrom not a religious perspective, there's still
so much to take away, right, like not having the frame of reference
that you're you know, you're you'retalking about. Even so, I think
from a different perspective, it saysthe same message essentially, right, like
(17:17):
it that those who have left arenever truly gone, right, They still
always cause an impact, and thoughtheir lives are you know, like you're
still you're still loved and support iteven after they go, right, Like,
maybe you can't have quite the levelof conversation with them that we had
(17:37):
in this book. It wasn't quitea literal, but you know, like
the fact that those were the exactpeople he needed to hold his hand as
he made this decision, like sayssomething, and it says something that Dumbledore
is not among them, right,he needed emotional love and care from his
(18:00):
family, right, which to himare the four people who presented him themselves.
Right. So it's intense. Um, and I did like that one
of his big fears at the beginningof the chapter, he just straight up
asks it here, right, likedoes it hurt? Because that was when
(18:22):
we start the chapter. That waslike one of the first two or three
thoughts he has is like is itgoing to hurt? I don't know what
it's gonna be, Like what whatdo I prepare for? Right? Um?
And you know, they have likea little conversation about it, like
no, it's like falling asleep andthey're like, no, he wants this
over quickly, like he's not goingto drag this out, like you don't
have anything to worry about. Umit you know, it also shows like
(18:48):
you need to you need to allowyourself to be vulnerable and ask those questions
when you all are supported, right, Like what's he got to lose?
Right? Like they might say,well, I don't know, or yes,
it's gonna hurt, Like is thatreally gonna change his mind? No,
he at least now knows what right, um. And I think the
(19:15):
way he kind of I don't know, the way that this confrontation, if
he will, plays out in thebook feels more real than the movie.
In the movie adds some sort oflike it almost has like a grandeur to
it. Right. He steps into this big clearing in the field and
(19:37):
it's like his big stance, right, And in this he just kind of
is himself right, like he's humblythere and he's he's almost a little bit
snarky, like we've come to loveum. And it's like over, yeah,
it just yeah. No. Ireally like the way it does happen,
(20:00):
Like you said, you know thatit's over very quickly. Um.
I think the most important thing thatwe get here was the picture of you
know, um, Lucius and Narcissaand malf Away and them all looking very
defeated and you know, kind ofnot a part of this. And of
course Haggard being there, he's tiedto a tree and he's screaming no,
(20:23):
no, no, you can't dothis, and there's such a beauty and
the fact that Harry's last thought isJinny, and in many ways, you
know, you can you can realizethe reason why why, Because because this
is the life that he wanted.He wanted the life with her, but
(20:45):
he's giving up his life so shecan have a life. And it's just
it's so wonderfully beautiful to watch thishappen and to read this, and you
know, and then it's done,you know, and we have the next
chapter, King's Cross, and sobut I think this, I think one
of the things that this chapter does, even though it's short, it proves
(21:08):
how well she's written this story thateven after I've read it, probably at
least seven to eighty nine, whoknows how many times, that I could
still be this emotional about these charactersand what happened in this chapter, even
though I know what happens. AndI think part of that is because and
(21:33):
for me personally, it is becauseshe's telling a story to which is an
allusion to a greater story to whichI hold to be true and means more
to me than anything else. AndI think that's one of the reasons why
this story has so much power,is because we all respond to a story
of extreme self sacrifice for the benefitof others, and there's nothing more powerful
(21:59):
than that type of story. That'swhat our greatest heroes do, right,
They sacrifice themselves. And it's thebest message. It's still the best message.
Yeah, I think you know,it's universally relatable and you can take
the pieces from it that resonate themost with you, right you can take
(22:21):
the story as she intends it andas you know you're referring to here.
But even if that's not what yousubscribe to, there's still so much to
take away from it. Right.It's it's powerful without being you know,
preachy, right like, which iswhich is nobody even people who believe in
the highest power and our religious don'tnecessarily want to be preached at so,
(22:44):
you know, like at least notby the park or without choice, right
Like, there there's context for that. But you know, I think it
is it's powerful, and I thinkthe one thing we skimmed over a little
bit that that stood out to mein this chapter two that straight up doesn't
exist in the movie, is thatwe get Valdimore kind of questioning himself too,
right, which the movie character wouldnever show that kind of weakness,
(23:08):
and it's a little out of characterto show how surprised he is, because
he even says, like I trulybelieved he was going to come when they
all thought Harry wasn't coming. Right, even he's like, I could have
sworn he would have come. Andhe's sort of taken aback himself and confused
why his grand evil master plan didn'tplay out the way he thought it did,
(23:32):
and then it did right, butnot for the reasons he thinks it.
It is right. He hasn't necessarilyone with this sort of arrogant feeling
he does. But yeah, Ithink I think it's interesting. It's it's
a full it's a full chapter,but not a long chapter, and important
(23:56):
things happen, but not a lotof things happen. It's not like the
last one where it's super dents.This is one very very important thing that
happens and us having to kind ofIt's like when you're in an important conversation
everyone gets very quiet and there's justthis silence. It's kind of what this
chapter is. You've been given thishuge chunk of information at the end of
(24:18):
the last chapter. Most of thischapter is just silence and what do you
do with that? And then abig thing right at the end that will
now have to go into and processwhat has happened at the in the next
chapter, you know, I yeah, I definitely agree, And I think
again, it just shows her prowessas an author, Like she knows exactly
(24:40):
what she's doing with this chapter.She knows exactly what she's doing, and
I think she needed to give youall of that information at in the last
chapter. And this one is theemotional gut punch, like just legitimately,
it's just it's like somebody just punchedyou in the face. So yeah,
(25:04):
so I love it and I cannotwait. You know, we we were
discussing the fact that there are onlythree things left. There are two chapters
in an epilogue, and then we'llhave our wrap up episode and will be
done. So it's insane that that'sthe case. But Drea, if anybody
wants to cry along with you hereon social media or see what else you've
(25:26):
got going on, where can theyfind you? Yes, if you want
to bring some tissues to the tablehere, or if you if you want
to talk about Matt and I's lastconversation outside of al post which he invited
me to join him on the sixo two Clubs, so that will probably
be live by them two. Youcan find me on Twitter at pcf check
(25:49):
or on Instagram at Drea Kaufman andit's CFMN and you could find me all
over social media under Matt Rushing zerotwo. Of course I'm here on the
network doing negotiations with John Mills asevery week we talk about Star Wars,
which is a lot of fun onthe TFM network. Of course, like
Dreya said, doing the six ortwo club which has been a blast.
We did just cover together with ChristySuper eight by JJ Abrams, so that
(26:15):
go check that out. It wasa great conversation about that film and it
was super fun to have Drea backthere and yeah, it was UM and
both you know, because it's it'smirroring both um. But you could also
find me there in that same feeddoing starter cuts with John Mills as we
talk about every single thing Zack Snyder'sdirected, and by this point of this
(26:38):
episode dropping his Justice leagu will beout and everybody will have seen it and
we will have talked about it.So you can listen to that and check
that out. You can also findme doing two other shows there. One
is called the Orb and the otheris Literary Treks. The Orbs about Star
Trek tis Base nine, and thenLiterary Trecks is about the books and the
commis of Star Trek. But thankyou so much for checking your outpost.
(27:03):
It's definitely join the revolution, Jointhe Nerd Party.
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