December 8, 2023 • 52 mins
Chessy Ricca is a Florida native who specializes in art and Florida history. Currently, she works as the Curator of the Historical Society of Martin County which includes the Elliott Museum and Martin County's oldest historic structure, the House of Refuge at Gilbert's Bar. Chessy's Florida history research spans from Pedro Menéndez de Avilés and his relationship to Spanish Florida through to prohibition era Florida and the misunderstood Ashley family of moonshiners. Chessy's Ashley research gained her a role on the Discovery Channel's adventurous TV show, Expedition Unknown with Josh Gates. On the show, she and two other local historians led Josh on a quest to search for John Ashley's stolen bank money in Florida's wild Everglades. Paranormal research has also been a part of Chessy's life, starting at a very young age. She served as team historian for War Party Paranormal out of Palm Beach County for about 5 years and continuous to join in on paranormal research sessions for fun. Chessy believes that the combination of historical research and the paranormal can help lead to truths untold in any history books.
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(00:06):
Welcome to the Paranormal Stakeout Radio TVshow with Larry Lawson. As a former
career law enforcement officer and law enforcementeducator, Larry focuses on the use of
tried and true law enforcement investigative techniquesin conducting paranormal investigations. Despite his experience
and training, Larry also and keepsan open mind to discussions on topics that
(00:29):
deal with evidence that are not quiteas physical in nature. Paranormal Stakeout guests
are professionals in the field of theparanormal and parapsychology, conducting the investigations and
research needed to further the cause ofparanormal study. Larry advocates an agenda of
standardization of structure and training in thefield of paranormal investigation and research for the
(00:52):
purpose of one day being able toproduce the evidence needed to convince a jury
of the existence of the paranormal.Whether it is ghosts, UFOs, unsolved
mysteries, hauntings, or cryptids,no topic is beyond the investigative reach of
Larry Lawson and the Paranormal Steakhout RadioTV show team. Now Here is the
host of the Paranormal Steakhout Radio TVshow Larry Lawson and good evening everyone,
(01:33):
and welcome back to Paranormal Steakout.I'm your host, Larry Lawson, coming
to you as always from beautiful VeroBeach, Florida, the headquarters for the
Florida Viureau of Paranormal Investigation and IndianRiver Hauntings. So glad to be back
with all of you tonight. Gota really interesting show. Now we will
be talking about ghosts. Yes,tonight we'll be talking about ghosts, but
we're also going to be discussing somethingthat really is as near to my heart
(01:57):
as the paranormal and that's history.Folks don't realize the connection between the two,
and tonight we're going to discuss thatwith my guests. We're also going
to be talking about Florida. Yes, this wonderful state that I live in
along with so many other folks,and its connection to the rest of the
world. My guest tonight is MissChessie Rica. She's a Florida native who
(02:20):
specializes in art and Florida history.She is currently the curator of the Historical
Society of Martin County and that includesthe Elliott Museum in Stuart as well as
the House of refuge, and we'llexplain what that is as we go onto
the show tonight. Chessi's research spanseverything from Pedro Menendez, that's the guy
(02:42):
that founded Saint Augustine, all theway up to the Moonshiners in the Prohibition
era and another group that we're goingto discuss tonight, and a group that
still might be around, and that'scalled the Ashley Gang that terrorized the East
coast of Florida in the nineteen twenties. Her research also recently gained her a
role on television show Josh Gates's DiscoveryChannels. They did a whole thing on
(03:05):
the Ashley Gang there, so thatwas a pretty interesting show. And despite
being such a well known historian inMartin County, Chessie's also a paranormal investigator.
So with that, I'd like towelcome Chessie Wreckord to the show.
Good evening, Chessie. How areyou hi, Larry. I'm good.
I'm happy to be here. Thankyou for inviting me to join your podcast
(03:25):
tonight. Well, it's going tobe interesting because we talked about so many
different things in the show, Chessie, but we don't always get to the
really the root of what's important withanything to do with paranormal investigation, and
that's historical research. I really folksaround here know you. They know your
(03:46):
reputation is being one of the predominantpre eminent historians in our area. But
I like you to share with theaudience a little bit about who you are
and what you do. Oh well, thank you. I started out actually
as as a painter. You know, my bachelor's degree is in fine Art,
concentrating in painting. So I paintedFlorida landscapes and one of my inspirations
(04:11):
were Florida's highwaymen, so I reallyenjoyed how they captured light. Now,
when I went into fine art schooland I was painting, I really struggled
with what I was painting because Iwanted to know more about the land,
you know, things that happened onthis land that I'm painting, and to
get a better understanding of my topicsin art. I really wanted to learn
(04:35):
how to research, and I hadno idea how to research other than a
simple Google search. And at thetime I was working as a mate on
a fishing boat, which I didfor ten years, and that was a
fun job. But after ten years, my body started to hurt, and
I applied to some programs for fineart to go into a master's degree,
(04:57):
and I actually didn't get into anyof them. But the one program that
I applied to just on a whimwas USF the University of South Florida Saint
Pete campus, because they offer aprogram in Florida Studies. And my thinking
back then was, well, Ican get a degree in research so that
I can combine my passions of paintingin Florida history and really come up with
(05:19):
some interesting art compositions that cover thebeauty of Florida but also give the history
so that people who are currently livingin the state or moving to the state,
or not even in the state kindof can see a visual of what
Florida history looks like through an artisticeye. Yeah, and people look at
Florida as sun funds, citrus trees, beaches. They don't realize the deep
(05:44):
history here and the impact that's havingthe rest of the nation, and many
times it's lost. Florida is thehome, even though it's a relatively new
state, the home of the oldestcity in the nation, which is part
of what you've been studying. Also, your master's studies have been on an
individual who founded Saint Augustine, Sothat was yes, uh, cater Menndez
(06:05):
de Aviles. Yes, he's afascinating character. What I studied with him
in grad school was his contract.And my professor specializes in paleography, which
is the study of ancient texts,so in his program he really had us
diving deep into primary source material.So he taught us how to read the
(06:28):
handwriting of the scribes back at youknow, in fifteen sixty five, and
so we could really study those primarysources to get a better idea of the
truth in how our state came tobe what it is today. So my
master's thesis, which I'm currently finishingup, I compare his contract, you
(06:49):
know, and what was written downon paper versus what actually happened. So,
you know, much like the paranormalworld we live in today, I'm
always trying to find truth. I'malways trying to debunk things. And in
a history book that you can pickup today, you know, I'll open
the pages and see what sources theyused, and almost nine times out of
(07:10):
ten they never used primary source material. So that was one of the things
we focus on in grad school nowone of the things as curator of the
Martin County Historical Society, you havetwo fantastic buildings that you work in,
House of Refuge, Gilbert's House ofRefuge as well as the Elliott Museum.
(07:30):
Can you explain to the folks,because this is going to be part of
the discussion later, what is theHouse of Refuge? What's it all about?
That's a great question and it's acommon question. So it's called Gilbert's
Bar house of Refuge, and there'stwo parts to that name. There you
have Gilbert's Bar and then you haveHouse of Refuge. And a lot of
times when we get tourists that comeinto town, they show up to the
(07:50):
House of Refuge thinking we serve alcohol, but in fact it's a different kind
of bar. So Gilbert was apirate whose name was Don Pedro Guilbert,
and a bar today, in nauticalterms, is really a shoal, So
it's shallow water where there might behigh sand, followed by troughs of deeper
(08:13):
water, so you would have sandbars, deep trough sandbars. So Gilbert's bar
was the sandy shoal that the piratekind of frequented, and he did frequent
the area a lot. There's alot of theories and stories and even ghost
stories surrounding Don Pedro Guilbert, andone of them commonly is that on a
(08:35):
darkly lit night, you might seehis ship in the Indian River lagoon all
lit up. So that's an interestingstory. But the House of Refuge itself,
it is the oldest wood structure hereon the east coast in Martin County.
It was built in eighteen seventy six, and its purpose back then as
(08:56):
a house of refuge was quite literallythat it was a house where people could
seek refuge. Now, because weare called the Treasure Coast for those of
you who are not in Florida,if you look on a map, the
central part of the state is commonlyknown as the Treasure Coast. Because of
these bars, people would oftentimes findthemselves wrecked shipwrecked. So back in the
(09:20):
late eighteen hundreds, shipwrecks were socommon that the Life Saving Service came up
with a plan to create ten housesof refuge, and they sat roughly seventy
ish miles away from each other,so consecutively down the coast. So in
theory, if you wrecked anywhere inthat you know mileage, you could walk
(09:45):
north or south and find a houseof refuge, and that house of refuge
back then was commonly run by afamily or not. It would just be
you know, a single man,but if he was married, it would
be his wife and kids, andit would be up to the keeper of
the house and his family to takecare of the shipwreck survivors. And we
are the last remaining one. Sobecause these houses sat so close to shore,
(10:09):
you can imagine the elements that gavethese houses a beating, whether it
was wind or salt water. Noneof them remain anymore, so we are
the last one. So it's veryimportant to keep this house alive and well.
And from what I understand, manyof the areas that had houses of
refuge sitting on them, even thoughthe buildings aren't there anymore, they later
became either coast Guard observation points andmaybe even coast Guard station. Is that
(10:33):
correct? Yeah, So actually we'rea really good example of that. So
we went through a couple different services. So the first one was the life
saving service, and then it wentinto coast Guard, and then it became
a naval base during World War Two, and then it was decommissioned in the
fifties, and that is when MartinCounty and the Historical Society Martin County took
(10:54):
it over. Now I've got justa for you here. Is it haunted?
What do you think? Yeah?Yeah, it's probably one of the
more famous spots down in your neckof the woods, which just to give
folks an idea of Vero Beaches aboutforty miles north of Stuart where this is
(11:16):
right now. So it's a veryinteresting spot. And if you ever come
down this way, even if youjust you're not looking for a paranormal event,
please go by there and see that. Now we're just we're going to
take our break here in a fewminutes, and we're going to get into
a little bit more about the Houseof Refuge and the stories and things that
come out of there and the ElliottMuseum. But how did you get interested
(11:39):
in the paranormal? You seem tobe a very fact based person that you
know, looks for the truth.At least some people have said to me,
how can you believe in the paranormal? I'm a cop, I searched
for the truth. How can Ibelieve it? Tell us about your story
and how you got interested in theparanormal. Well, I was born and
raised in Florida, and I havea very vivid memory of my first paranormal
(12:03):
experience, which, in my opinion, set it off for life. So
I was about five years old andmy father graduated the University of Florida,
and as a kid, we wouldoftentimes go to football games up in Gainesville
and yep, yep, yep,and we oh. I wish I had
my Gators jacket on, but Idon't. And we stayed at this house
(12:26):
in Micanopie, which is a veryold Florida town. It's like a Cracker
town, but it's called the herLong Mansion. And if you ever have
a chance to go there, fromwhat I remember as a kid, I
mean, it was just full ofcrazy experiences. But the one in particular
I'm talking about. I was fiveyears old and I had to use the
(12:48):
restroom, which was downstairs, Somy mother walked me downstairs, and there
was a woman in white in along, flowy white gown who had this
aura about her. It was awhite aura, and I asked. I
remember tugging on my mom's arm saying, hey, mom, who's that woman?
And my mother was like, whatwoman? And when we got downstairs
(13:11):
and I was in the bathroom,there was another ghost in the bathroom with
me, and it was a differentcolor and it was green. And it's
an image that is like forever burnedin my mind. And because of that
image in my mind, I feellike I've just always known paranormal activity exists,
(13:33):
but it created this never ending pursuitof the truth to what I saw
because it's obviously unexplainable and at sucha young age, you know, to
me, I didn't even think aboutit other than, hey, there's somebody
else in this room with us.Are they alive? What's the story here?
Historian paranormal researcher. We've got alot to talk about, but we're
(13:54):
going to take our first break down, so folks stay with us here on
paranormal stakeout with my guests. ChessieRica will be back after these messages,
and we're back with my guests tonight, Chessie Rica down at Stuart,
Florida. Chessee. We've talked alot about your historical background and how you
got into the paranormal, but fora long time you were a part of
(14:16):
a group, very fine group Iknow of down in the West bomb beach
area or party paranormal? How didyou connect with them? And why did
you connect with them? Ah,that's actually a really funny story. I
was interestingly at a potluck and Iwas eavesdropping on a conversation behind me while
I was waiting in mind to getfood, and this gentleman behind me was
(14:39):
talking about how he had to leavesoon because he was going on a ghost
hunt. And instantly my ears perkedup, and I remember apologizing and saying,
hey, I couldn't help, butoverhear you know this private conversation you
were having. But can I askwhat this paranormal you know, ghost hunt
thing is about? And he actuallyinvited me on the spot and said I
(15:00):
could join them that night. Andit was at a cemetery in Tequesta,
Florida called Riverside Drive. It boastsa celebrity, so Perry Como is buried
there for all you listeners who knowwho Perry Como is. He is a
singer before my time. And andI went and I met his team and
(15:28):
they just seemed like a really interesting, down to earth group of people who
put a lot of emphasis on theresearch portion of the paranormal prior to this
team, I had very limited experiencedoing any sort of paranormal ghost hunts,
we'll call it, because at thatpoint I didn't do any research. So
(15:48):
you know, I think about SaintAugustine and they have the trolley tours,
and that really was kind of myonly experience with paranormal was doing tours.
So one of the ones I didbefore that with Savannah, Georgia, where
they take you around and they showyou some old buildings and tell you to
take pictures and you may or maynot see something on your camera. So
that was my experience with paranormal priorto joining this team. So when I
(16:11):
saw the team, they put alot of emphasis on the tools that they
use, and they took a lotof pride in how they built these tools
in their garages, just using oldcomponents that weren't in use anymore. And
I really, as somebody who alwaystried tries to get to the truth of
(16:36):
any story, I really thoroughly enjoyedthe passion that they put into acquiring evidence
and then trying to disprove what theymay or may not capture. And that's
war party. They're a really interestingresearch paranormalking and a good team and we've
had the fortunate, the fortunate enoughto investigate with them ourselves. They're they're
(17:02):
they're good folks. So hi doesappscotting all those folks down those neck of
the woods. So that got youinto it, and you worked with them
for quite a while. And nowyou're still in Martin County. Uh.
I know that you've been to FellasMayor a few times. You've seen what
we had up there. Let's getto the House of Refuge. So many
(17:22):
stories circular rate circulating around this arearegarding what occurs there. Have you experienced
anything there yourself? Not very often, but most recently in October, I
did have a small experience there,which isn't abnormal for me to have,
(17:45):
uh, given it's the month ofHalloween. We had two separate teams come
and do an event for the museum, so you could pay, you know,
a certain amount of money and youcould have a private ghost hunt with
a local team. And I,as curator, was kind of keeping my
distance and letting the group do theirthing. And I just make sure that
(18:07):
the property doesn't get harmed. Nobody'ssmoking cigarettes or anything on the property.
And I was standing outside between thehouse and the ocean, and I saw
two shadow figures just bolt across theproperty. And I've seen shadow people before.
(18:29):
A lot of times I see them. I've been to Ortona, which
is just south of Lake Okuchobe.If you're looking at a map, I've
seen shadow people there. But thiswas interesting because everybody in the group,
it was like twenty people. Theyall had glow sticks on their chests so
that we knew who was a paidguest. And then obviously we had the
(18:52):
two paranormal investigators and everybody had astation. We had walkie talkies, so
I knew where everybody was. Therewas nobody else side I have. I
have a visual of the doors,so if anybody came outside, and I
mean it was like the fastest thingyou could ever see, and it was
clear as day, just these reallydark, shadowy figures, and they bolted
(19:15):
from the north side of the outsidefacade to the south side, just zoom,
just so fast, fast enough towhere you could pick out a shape,
but too fast for any live humanto want to run across a really
old rickety patio. And whether ornot that you know that was a person's
(19:37):
shadow, I tried to debunk it. There were no cars going by.
I tried to recreate myself to seeif that cast it a shadow, and
and it was really neat because Idon't experience a lot of things there now
the House of Refuge, Yes,so I there. I've been in this
position. I've been working there forabout three years. And there's a lot
(19:59):
of old timers who take pride inMartin County history, and so they've spent
a considerable amount of time either beinga docent or just visiting the House of
Refuge, and a lot of timesI get to hear ghost stories in those
conversations. Now, those people willask me if I experienced the same thing
they did, and I have tosadly let them down and say, no,
(20:21):
I did not experience that. ButI also get to hear, you
know, these really interesting oral historiesabout the paranormal that haus a refuge.
And I think that's the one thingthat I'm impressed with is the fact that
you just don't jump on the bandwagonand hear what everybody else's experienced and say,
oh, I have too. Imean that's the mark of a good
(20:41):
researcher. So I applaud you forthat. How often How long have the
stories been going on there, andprobably what's the most common story that comes
out of the house, if thereis one. Well, the land itself
is just so old. You Alot of our listeners aren't in state.
But if you look at a mapof Martin County and you look at Hutchinson
(21:04):
Island where the House of Refuge sits, it's a really thin barrier island.
You could walk from ocean to intracoastalin a matter of feet where the House
of Refuge is. It's very thinthere. And before there were you know,
(21:26):
Europeans that came over to Florida,it was inhabited by Native Americans.
So actually there's burial mounts all overthe island, and oftentimes when we have
a big erosion from US big stormor hurricane, we have Native American bodies
pop out. Now they are protected, it is an archaeological site, and
(21:48):
there are a few archaeological organizations thatmonitor these sites. But there are bodies
and they're old. I mean notone hundred, not three hundred, not
five hundred thousands of your old NativeAmerican burials. So that's kind of the
start of anything that might be paranormal. And then you have to put into
(22:08):
consideration the seventeen fifteen fleet. Youknow, those were ten massive ships carrying
dowry from there were two yeah,basically I mean Mexico and South and they
were traveling through the Bahama Channel anda hurricane rectum and stream the wreckage for
(22:33):
miles along the coast, hence thename of the Treasure Coast. But a
lot of people died, and thatwas the you know, seventeen hundreds.
Then you have the eighteen hundreds wherethere was all sorts of lawlessness going on
and frontier justice and sorts. Butthen in more contemporary history in the nineteen
hundreds, the House Refuge definitely sawdeath as well. In nineteen oh four,
(22:57):
there were two consecutive shipwrecks that happenedwithin twenty four hours of each other.
So the first one was the wreckageof the Georges Valentine, which was
mid October of nineteen oh four,and the second one was the day after.
And the first wreck saw I wantto say seven lives were lost,
(23:21):
and I can't speak on behalf ofthe second wreck, but you have to
imagine this is, you know,the heart of a hurricane and people if
you had a picture of the Houseof refuge, it would be easier to
explain. But this part of Floridais well known for their rock formations.
On the beach, there's a rockformation. The rocks are called Anastasia rocks.
(23:45):
I don't know why they're called thatname, but they're these large,
intimidating rocks because they're high above water, they're high above sand. They're not
sharp, but they're very holy,and the barnacles on them are sharp.
And one of the ship log orthe the keeper of the House of Refuge,
(24:07):
in his log book from that night, described the men who were I
forget the word he used, butbasically, the ship that wrecked was carrying
lumber and the combination of high windsand rough seas impaled. So these seven
men were impaled against these rocks withthe lumber. So it was a pretty
(24:30):
ominous evening, you know. Andto as a paranormal researcher, to think
about that type of energy being leftthere, there's no doubt in my mind
you would get some sort of activityfrom that. I mean, that's just
a horrible sight to envision. Imentioned that there's stories of seeing Menendez's ship
(24:51):
in the in the river, whichis essentially inter coastal waterway between the mainland
and the Barrier Islands. But doyou have folks talk about seeing sailors or
Spanish seamen that are on the beach. I've heard a few stories of people
who have captured I've seen a photographsomebody captured a black mist in the background
(25:18):
between them and the ocean, sothe mist was behind them and the beach
was behind them. But more oftentimes, I think the what I hear the
most in terms of the beach isactually sound. Now, Florida's East coast
is definitely covered with houses and allsorts of building right up to the shoreline,
(25:38):
but the sounds that I got reportsof were like drumming and chanting and
things that you wouldn't necessarily hear intoday's time period. One of those stories
takes place before you get into thatstory. We've got to take our next
break. So when we get back, folks, we're going to finish talking
about the House of Refuge, Butthen we're going to talk about some that
(26:00):
lawlessness that went on in this neckof the woods during Prohibition and a group
called the Ashley Gang. So staywith us a lot more to talk about.
Be right back and Welcome back toParanormal Steakout with my guest night CHESSI
Rica the uh dose. I'm sorry, the curator of the Martin County Historical
Society down in Stuart, Florida.So I want to finish this little story
(26:22):
that you began. I had tointerrupt you on, so go ahead and
finish that, and then I wantto start talking about the other group.
Of course, go ahead and finishyour story. You know, I can't
even remember will we were discussing,Yeah, it was so long ago.
Well let's get into the Ashley gigthen, excuse me. This was a
(26:48):
group that many looked at as beinga Body and Clyde type of group before
Bonnie and Clyde and they excuse me, and they ran the ran rampant down
here in the central part East centralpart of Florida for a number of years
back in the twenties. So I'mgonna let you go ahead talk about who
(27:11):
the Ashleys were and what paranormal storiesare connected with them. Also, go
ahead. Yes, so the AshleyGang actually is not as well known as
they should be in my opinion,given the story. But in my research,
I trace the family back now JohnAshley was the leader of this gang
(27:37):
of bank robbers and moonshiners. Hisfamily are Florida crackers going back generations.
So you have like John Ashley's fatherwho worked on Flaggler's railroad when it came
down. They actually lived in cedarKey for a while before John was born.
(27:57):
So going back into the early eighteenhundreds, the family is a typical
Florida family given the time period.A lot of the men served in whatever
war was going on at the time, which they've definitely served in both the
Seminole Wars and the Civil War.And you know, their jobs were very
(28:25):
typical back then. So this ispre nineteen hundreds. We're talking eighteen hundreds
here, Florida. And when youthink about that, you picture, you
know, citrus, railroads, lumber, turpentine, and cattle. So this
family literally did all of that andit was seasonal. Now, Florida was
(28:49):
kind of the last frontier. It'swhere you know, the Northern States kind
of sent there their rejects or it'swhere people came to find freedom. I
think a lot of people overlooked thebeauty of the state back then. Also
people came down here to hide too, exactly. Yes, So the family
(29:10):
prior to the leader of the gang, John Ashley, being born. The
family actually suffered a lot. Therewas a lot of death back then,
and there was a lot of feuding. Florida was known for cattle feuds and
the family was involved in what wasa famous cattle feud back in the day,
but it seems to have kind ofgotten forgotten to time. And actually
(29:32):
this cattle feud in the late eighteenhundreds is what brought the family from the
West Coast over to the East coastto try to build a new life from
themselves, you know, just getout of this drama and the constant threat
of a gun behind your back,because that's what feuding was like back then.
You never know if you were goingto get shot off your horse.
And so the family moved to Pompinoin the early nineteen hundreds. The dad,
(29:56):
Joe Ashley, got a job workingon the train, building train tracks
and stuff like that. But Florida'sjobs were seasonal. So if you know,
they all did agriculture in some wayor another. They grew some sort
of fruit, whether it was pineappleor citrus, and when that season was
(30:18):
slow, you probably were a hunteror a trapper. Or you did guided
hunts, or you were a fishingguide. You know, that's kind of
what the state had to offer.So the family eventually got brought up into
what was pom Beach County prior toMartin County's founding in nineteen twenty five.
(30:38):
So again, if you're looking ata map, pom Beach County was a
lot bigger before nineteen twenty five,so the whole area was different back in
those next But John Ashley ended upgetting here, he ended up getting mixed
up in some lawlessness that included somebankruptries, try to rob a train and
stewart. But I don't want toget it too far ahead of myself.
(31:00):
No, no, not at all. It's a really complicated story, to
be honest. But the brief synopsisof it was this was a poor family
and you kind of had to dowhat you had to do to survive.
And when they weren't hunting and trappingor growing food, you were selling hides,
(31:21):
you were making liquor, you wereselling moonshine to be able to feed
your family. And it was alarge family. So what started the whole
drama took place in nineteen eleven whenJohn Ashley was sent down by his father
to go deliver some otter hides tomake money. And John was no stranger
to working with the Seminole tribe ofFlorida. I mean, back then there
(31:42):
were seminole outposts kind of all overthe place. And so John and another
fellow he was a seminal, hisname was the Sodo Tiger. They got
on a canoe and paddled their waysouth to go sell these otter hides.
And there, yeah, I don'tknow what happened. Now go ahead,
(32:08):
we can hear you. Go aheadand go ahead and finish the st I'm
here. So what happened was atsome point between the seminole outposts and where
they went to sell first, theSoda Tiger's body mysteriously ended up in a
canal and it was found by adredgmen about two days later. And so
(32:30):
this really was the beginning of thisstory of John Ashley being on the run
from cops or the sheriffs back then. Now he went through a lot of
issue after this. But one ofmy mentors, Steve Carr, told me
(32:50):
this quote and I never forgot it. He said, you can't tell history
by today's standards. You have totell history by history standards, and the
truth of the matter was if aSeminole Indian died, then it wasn't that
not that big of a deal.But it just wasn't reported in the news.
It wasn't you know, it wasn'tsomething that was really noteworthy. It's
unfortunate and it's not something that wecan we look at and condon't today.
(33:15):
But it's history. I understand exactlywhat you're saying. Yeah, and that's
a tough thing to kind of describe, but it So they blamed John Ashley
for the death. Is that whatI'm getting? Oh? Yeah, So
John, which was just kind ofunheard of, is like, now there's
there was this sensation in the stateand even nationwide of you know, this
guy John Ashley killing Desoda Tiger.And the issue was is Desoda Tiger was
(33:37):
a seminal chief son. So itwas kind of a big deal to the
to the Seminole tribe of Florida.And John Ashley escaped back home, So
he escaped the law, he escapedarrest, and he made it back home
to Martin County, and this negativitydidn't stop following him. So he had
(34:01):
a worn out you know, hewas going to trial for you know,
the death of Desoda Tiger, andthree trials later, and he's still on
the loose. And after well,during these trials, John and his gang
of random men that came from allover. One came from Chicago, one
(34:22):
one was a stranger that got offof a train track or train, and
one was like a drug addict thatthey found in prison, and they all
just kind of started this band ofmerry men. But the only way John
could make money without the law wasto conduct business illegally, and and his
(34:42):
way of avoiding the law was justto make money by robbing a bank,
which you know, we found sourcesthat proved the reason why he robbed the
bank was to be able to payfor his lawyer, because he couldn't afford
a lawyer, you know. Andthen the other side of the family is
making moonshine well, and they endedup to make to kind of make a
longer story short, they end upgetting into a shootout down in your neck
(35:05):
of the woods where John's father died. They took off ended up the old
Dixie Highway into my neck of thewoods up here in the Indian River County
area and they were killed in nineteentwenty four by the sheriff of Saint Lucie
County up in this neck of thewoods. And I kind of shortened up
the story for you a little bit, but that's essentially what happened. They
(35:27):
were running moonshine in the glades RobinBanks, and they were even importing boos
weren't they. Oh yeah, ohyeah, because the Bahamas was international there
were no booze laws over there duringthe Prohibition, so as long as you
didn't get caught state side, itdidn't matter, now, correct me if
(35:47):
I'm wrong. Also, but theAshy Gang was also looked out almost like
Robin Hood type of character by manypeople in the southern end of what is
now Martin County, if I gotthat correct. Also, yeah, absolutely,
See, the story is so misunderstood, and it's actually kind of sad
because you have one side of thestory that paints him as this really negative
(36:07):
character, but then you have theother side of the story that really comes
from like his neighbors and the peoplehe grew up with, and these people
in their oral histories or their writtenhistories, they didn't praise John, but
they just described him as a reallynice person with a good heart, and
when he was on the run,he would stop in silently to a neighbor's
(36:30):
house for food and he would befed. And when he left, the
woman who picks up the plates orplate noticed that there was a twenty dollars
gold piece under the plate, andthat was something John was known for,
was leaving money in exchange for food. So obviously when they started selling moonshine,
(36:51):
John acquired some money and when hewas on the run, he was
able to pay for his things,and the local popular really did see him
as a robin Hood because a lotof people back then did not like the
law. The law was just ascrooked as you know that your neighbor next
door. Everybody was just trying tomake a buck. True. And one
(37:16):
of my favorite stories is ash sheleaving an elderly woman and I don't know
how accurate this is, but hershe was about to lose her house to
the bank and she wakes up onemorning to find enough money to cover the
mortgage under a rock by her frontdoor, and that kind of endeared people
to them. But eventually they endup getting into the shootout. They end
(37:36):
up heading up into the North Endof Saint Lucie County, which is now
where I'm at Indian River County,got caught by the law, captured,
they never made it to jail.That's a very short version of it.
So their reign of terror ran prettymuch the entire east coast of Florida all
(37:57):
the way up into our air.Are you here? Died in November of
twenty four, but there are ghoststories attached to the Ashley Gang and all
the things that they were involved in. Can we got about a minute for
a break? Can you give usone just briefly before we take our break,
and then we'll I'll let you thinkabout something. So they died October
(38:20):
thirty first of nineteen twenty four.And what night is that? All?
Hell Isy Halloween? Yeah? Ohthat's interesting, yeap. So November one,
October thirty first, November first istheir night of their death. It's
almost one hundred years. Yeah.And the one story that I am aware
of that where they were killed onthe bridge going into from present day Indian
(38:43):
River County into Brevard County, whichwas where Cape Neverlis. There's still gunshots
heard in the area where the bridgewas at the time, and there's been
reports of that. So when weget back, we're about ready to take
our last break. I want tohear some ghost stories about the Ashley Gang,
and then I want to talk toyou a little bit about the importance
of history and historic I'm sorry,historical research and the paranormal research. So
(39:05):
stay with us, fokes. We'llbe back right after this message and welcome
back to Paranoral Steakout. My guesttonight, the curator of the Martin County
Historical Society, chessi Rica, joiningus from Stewart, Florida, want to
make a couple comments real quick.If you'd like to find out more about
the Florida Bureau of Paranormal Investigation andIndian River Hauntings, you can catch us
on our website Paranormal FBI dot comor Indian River Hauntings dot com. Also
(39:30):
our Facebook channel if you'd like tocheck out some of the things that we're
doing at Indian River Hauntings two threefour one. And also if you'd like
to get a hold of me,send me a message, maybe ask a
question that I'll bring up at thebeginning of each show. You can get
a hold of me at ghost Guyat Paranormal steakout dot org. Also,
you can check out the entire programand all my shows at Paranormal steakout dot
(39:52):
org. But I'd be remiss ifI didn't mention all the other great programming
on the Xzone Radio and TV broadcastnetwork. ZBN dot net will get you
to all of the great shows onthe network, and I really encourage you.
There's some really interesting things out there. And of course my friend Rob
McConnell and his show The XO.So take a look at that, Jesse.
(40:15):
How can folks find out more aboutyou? The House of Refuge,
the Eliot Museum got a website orsomeplace they can check. Yeah, we
do have a website at www dotHSMCFL dot org is our website. But
you can just give a simple Googlesearch and the House or Refuge will take
you directly to us. So folkscheck that out. So I gave you
(40:40):
a lesson here before we got back, and talking about history tonight is not
a thing that we get a chanceto do enough on this show because history
is so very important. But I'vegiven you a few minutes to think about
that history and some ghost stories thatgo with the Ashley Gang, So go
for it. Yeah, there's ahandful of stories. So you briefly talked
(41:06):
about the shootout site, and theshootout briefly is just what happened between the
sheriffs and the Ashley's at their MoonshineStill. There were two deaths, so
John's father died and then one ofthe sheriffs died. So you have and
this is at their Moonshine still.So you have to think about and I'm
(41:28):
always thinking about the energy left overfrom incidents like this where there was a
big emotional experience. What happens tothat emotional energy? Is it left behind
that? You know? That's kindof where I believe in more of a
residual haunting. So that specific area. One of the first stories I would
like to tell is actually recorded inwriting in the I can't remember which book
(41:54):
it is. I want to sayit's the Notorious Ashley Gang. But one
of the members of the the gangitself, his name was Albert Miller.
Now, after the boys were killedin nineteen twenty four, Albert Miller left
and never came back, and herefused his entire life to talk to anybody
(42:15):
about it. So there's really nowritten account of Albert Miller during or after
any of this. We do knowtoday that he's no longer with us.
I think he died a couple ofdecades ago. But his story is later
in life, he finally came backto where the Moonshine still was, and
(42:37):
it took him decades to be ableto come back because the trauma of what
happened was so much for him.You know, he was shot at at
the Moonshine Still shootout, He hada book shot, he almost took his
arm off, So that's a lotof you know, that's a lot of
trauma. So he came back laterin life, and he was still petrified
(42:58):
in his old age to be therebecause he was astantly afraid that the law
was after him, even all theseyears later. So he goes by himself
and he parks his car and hestarts walking down a sandy trail where you
can picture the big pine trees,just a hidden trail, and he's walking
to the Ashley Cemetery, which isin super close proximity to where the Moonshine
(43:23):
still was, and he's just goingto pay his respects. And so as
he's walking down this trail, thesandy trail, he starts to notice something
that he didn't expect, which wassounds of a moonshine still and the light
that was coming off of the flamethat was used to light the mash in
(43:45):
the moonshine still, And so heis getting closer and closer, and he's
questioning himself. He's questioning, hewants to turn back. Is this real?
Is this fake? What am Iexperiencing? And you know, he's
hearing, you know, the stirringof the mash, He's hearing the glasses
(44:06):
clinking against each other. He's he'shearing a moonshine still in operation. He's
hearing laughter, He's hearing his friendscommunicating for the first time in decades.
And so he's questioning his reality.He's questioning if his friends were even shot
at are they still alive this wholetime? And he had no idea that
(44:27):
that for decades his his friends werestill alive and well, So he gets
closer to the cemetery and the soundsand sights get brighter and louder, and
he makes it around the bend andsets his eyes on the cemetery and everything
disappeared. All the sounds went away, the light went away, and he
was just there alone with the gravemarkers of his friends. And that was
(44:54):
one of the first Ashley stories Iever heard. I took you to the
cemetery a couple of weeks ago,and you got to see how kind of
remote it was. Granted it's ona golf course in a gated community,
yeah, but it's still If youdidn't know it's there, you would have
(45:15):
no idea that there's a cemetery there. Surprisingly, even though it's just west
of Dixie that back then was noman's land now. So they I,
like I said, before the commercialbreak, they were shot. They were
making their way up. The theoryis that they were going up to Jacksonville
to get work because the law wastoo much for them down here, and
(45:38):
so on Hollowey night, it wasa rainy, rainy night, they were
driving north from Martin County into SaintLucie County and they were shot by four
police officers, shot dead in coldblood with handcuffs on them, so they
(45:58):
had no way to defend themselves.So years later this became a popular like
paranormal destination is the bridge that theywere killed on is no longer there.
There's a new bridge there, butjust to the west of the current bridge
sits where the old bridge used tobe, And I think if you park
(46:19):
and maybe do some illegal trespassing,which I don't condone, you might find
some residual pilings from that bridge there. So I think, trust me.
Oh good, okay, I it'sbeen a while. Not that I didn't
do that. I didn't do anythingilegal. I don't do that. But
anyway, so on Halloween nights,oftentimes, if you're an Ashley fan,
(46:45):
you'll find people there trying to communicatewith John to get the truth to you
know, capture some sort of evidence, either on the recorder, on on
a cell phone or a camera.You know, there's a lot of people
interested in the paranormal side of theAshley story, and there's so many reasons
for that. What do you thinkthis paranormal thing is? Now, we've
(47:07):
talked a lot about the history tonight, we've talked a little bit about your
background, but what is your theoryabout ghosts? Oh? Gosh, Well,
you know, I have ideas onall sorts of different types of haunting
because I've experienced in doing the ghostshunts with War Party, paranormal the different
(47:30):
levels of haunting you know, I'veI've seen video footage. We did an
experiment where we were in the GulfStream Hotel which is in Lake Worth,
and we did this experiment where weplayed you know, music from the time
period of when the hotel was inits boom era, and we captured a
live video of a woman shadow beingtwisted around like she was being danced in
(47:54):
a ballroom dance because we were inthe ballroom and here's evidence of dancing.
So to me, like that typeof physically did you physically see that when
it happened or did you just seeit after you watched the video after Yeah,
after the video was taken it wasI think it's still on Facebook.
You can find it. It's abeautiful video. But to me, that
(48:15):
that was triggered by sound and location. So for me, that would be
like a residual energy that's that's leftthere now. I also have experienced like
smart entities or smart type of investigationwhere they can you know, actively answer
(48:35):
questions with a knock or you know, in a device of some sort.
So I mean to say, toask what my beliefs are, I certainly
can say with one hundred percent certaintythat I believe in ghosts, but I
certainly believe that every ghostly experience isspecial in and of itself. I think
there's so many different circumstances that thatare in play, given you know,
(49:00):
the specific type of haunting. Imean, well, how does historical research
play into paranormal investigations? And that'skind of how I'd like to wrap up
tonight, being a history in yourself, how do you see the two connected
and how important are they to beconnected? Well, obviously, I'm very
(49:21):
passionate about the Ashley Gang, butI'm also equally passionate about research and historical
research at that. So when I'mdoing and we'll take the Ashley Gang as
an example, when I'm conducting mymy Ashley Gang research, like Menendez,
I use primary sources and I alsouse secondary sources. So primary sources would
be you know, diaries or newspaperarticles from the time or anything that was
(49:49):
first hand account. Then you getinto secondary sources. How is that important?
Yeah? Yeah? How does that? How is that important to paranormal
research? How was all right,the historical research important to the paranormal So
when I'm finished, like doing mymundane research, where I go into the
primary and secondary source material. Ialways question, like at night in the
(50:15):
back of my mind, after workor whatever. I want to get into
the emotional aspect of these histories.I want to know what these people were
feeling. I want to know whatthey were thinking. I want to know
what happened. And the only wayI can, in my mind, as
a paranormal researcher I can think todo that is to utilize the spiritual realm
(50:37):
as a form of research as well. So you know, in my downtime,
if I can tag along with warparty and conduct some historical paranormal interviews,
I'll try to reach out to thegang or their family, and I'll
come up with a list of questionsand I'll try to see if I can
get any type of paranormal evidence thatcan help me lead me down another trail
(51:00):
or answer any questions I have.Well, what about if you get a
you get some information your investigation aname, for example, how can the
research that you do help verify thatthere's anything really to this name? Well?
There, I yeah, So Igo if I get a name like
(51:22):
that, absolutely, Like I'll gethome or the next day at work and
I'll just start researching that and seeif I can connect any ties. And
sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Most of the time I'm asking yes
or no questions, and then I'llget into specifics and and a lot of
times I am just kind of leftwith nothing but everyone or more questions or
(51:46):
more question Unfortunately, Jesse, ourtime is about to run out. But
I do want to thank you verymuch for joining me tonight. I appreciate
the history lesson and I hope,folks, that you get a better view
of what Florida really is. It'snot just sand and sun and citrus fruit.
It's a place of great historical significance. So appreciate you being with us
(52:07):
tonight. Please do take care,hug your family, and until we meet
again, take care and we'll seeyou on the other side. Have a
good night to overs.
Welcome to the Paranormal Stakeout Radio TVshow with Larry Lawson. As a former
career law enforcement officer and law enforcementeducator, Larry focuses on the use of
tried and true law enforcement investigative techniquesin conducting paranormal investigations. Despite his experience
and training, Larry also and keepsan open mind to discussions on topics that
(00:29):
deal with evidence that are not quiteas physical in nature. Paranormal Stakeout guests
are professionals in the field of theparanormal and parapsychology, conducting the investigations and
research needed to further the cause ofparanormal study. Larry advocates an agenda of
standardization of structure and training in thefield of paranormal investigation and research for the
(00:52):
purpose of one day being able toproduce the evidence needed to convince a jury
of the existence of the paranormal.Whether it is ghosts, UFOs, unsolved
mysteries, hauntings, or cryptids,no topic is beyond the investigative reach of
Larry Lawson and the Paranormal Steakhout RadioTV show team. Now Here is the
host of the Paranormal Steakhout Radio TVshow Larry Lawson and good evening everyone,
(01:33):
and welcome back to Paranormal Steakout.I'm your host, Larry Lawson, coming
to you as always from beautiful VeroBeach, Florida, the headquarters for the
Florida Viureau of Paranormal Investigation and IndianRiver Hauntings. So glad to be back
with all of you tonight. Gota really interesting show. Now we will
be talking about ghosts. Yes,tonight we'll be talking about ghosts, but
we're also going to be discussing somethingthat really is as near to my heart
(01:57):
as the paranormal and that's history.Folks don't realize the connection between the two,
and tonight we're going to discuss thatwith my guests. We're also going
to be talking about Florida. Yes, this wonderful state that I live in
along with so many other folks,and its connection to the rest of the
world. My guest tonight is MissChessie Rica. She's a Florida native who
(02:20):
specializes in art and Florida history.She is currently the curator of the Historical
Society of Martin County and that includesthe Elliott Museum in Stuart as well as
the House of refuge, and we'llexplain what that is as we go onto
the show tonight. Chessi's research spanseverything from Pedro Menendez, that's the guy
(02:42):
that founded Saint Augustine, all theway up to the Moonshiners in the Prohibition
era and another group that we're goingto discuss tonight, and a group that
still might be around, and that'scalled the Ashley Gang that terrorized the East
coast of Florida in the nineteen twenties. Her research also recently gained her a
role on television show Josh Gates's DiscoveryChannels. They did a whole thing on
(03:05):
the Ashley Gang there, so thatwas a pretty interesting show. And despite
being such a well known historian inMartin County, Chessie's also a paranormal investigator.
So with that, I'd like towelcome Chessie Wreckord to the show.
Good evening, Chessie. How areyou hi, Larry. I'm good.
I'm happy to be here. Thankyou for inviting me to join your podcast
(03:25):
tonight. Well, it's going tobe interesting because we talked about so many
different things in the show, Chessie, but we don't always get to the
really the root of what's important withanything to do with paranormal investigation, and
that's historical research. I really folksaround here know you. They know your
(03:46):
reputation is being one of the predominantpre eminent historians in our area. But
I like you to share with theaudience a little bit about who you are
and what you do. Oh well, thank you. I started out actually
as as a painter. You know, my bachelor's degree is in fine Art,
concentrating in painting. So I paintedFlorida landscapes and one of my inspirations
(04:11):
were Florida's highwaymen, so I reallyenjoyed how they captured light. Now,
when I went into fine art schooland I was painting, I really struggled
with what I was painting because Iwanted to know more about the land,
you know, things that happened onthis land that I'm painting, and to
get a better understanding of my topicsin art. I really wanted to learn
(04:35):
how to research, and I hadno idea how to research other than a
simple Google search. And at thetime I was working as a mate on
a fishing boat, which I didfor ten years, and that was a
fun job. But after ten years, my body started to hurt, and
I applied to some programs for fineart to go into a master's degree,
(04:57):
and I actually didn't get into anyof them. But the one program that
I applied to just on a whimwas USF the University of South Florida Saint
Pete campus, because they offer aprogram in Florida Studies. And my thinking
back then was, well, Ican get a degree in research so that
I can combine my passions of paintingin Florida history and really come up with
(05:19):
some interesting art compositions that cover thebeauty of Florida but also give the history
so that people who are currently livingin the state or moving to the state,
or not even in the state kindof can see a visual of what
Florida history looks like through an artisticeye. Yeah, and people look at
Florida as sun funds, citrus trees, beaches. They don't realize the deep
(05:44):
history here and the impact that's havingthe rest of the nation, and many
times it's lost. Florida is thehome, even though it's a relatively new
state, the home of the oldestcity in the nation, which is part
of what you've been studying. Also, your master's studies have been on an
individual who founded Saint Augustine, Sothat was yes, uh, cater Menndez
(06:05):
de Aviles. Yes, he's afascinating character. What I studied with him
in grad school was his contract.And my professor specializes in paleography, which
is the study of ancient texts,so in his program he really had us
diving deep into primary source material.So he taught us how to read the
(06:28):
handwriting of the scribes back at youknow, in fifteen sixty five, and
so we could really study those primarysources to get a better idea of the
truth in how our state came tobe what it is today. So my
master's thesis, which I'm currently finishingup, I compare his contract, you
(06:49):
know, and what was written downon paper versus what actually happened. So,
you know, much like the paranormalworld we live in today, I'm
always trying to find truth. I'malways trying to debunk things. And in
a history book that you can pickup today, you know, I'll open
the pages and see what sources theyused, and almost nine times out of
(07:10):
ten they never used primary source material. So that was one of the things
we focus on in grad school nowone of the things as curator of the
Martin County Historical Society, you havetwo fantastic buildings that you work in,
House of Refuge, Gilbert's House ofRefuge as well as the Elliott Museum.
(07:30):
Can you explain to the folks,because this is going to be part of
the discussion later, what is theHouse of Refuge? What's it all about?
That's a great question and it's acommon question. So it's called Gilbert's
Bar house of Refuge, and there'stwo parts to that name. There you
have Gilbert's Bar and then you haveHouse of Refuge. And a lot of
times when we get tourists that comeinto town, they show up to the
(07:50):
House of Refuge thinking we serve alcohol, but in fact it's a different kind
of bar. So Gilbert was apirate whose name was Don Pedro Guilbert,
and a bar today, in nauticalterms, is really a shoal, So
it's shallow water where there might behigh sand, followed by troughs of deeper
(08:13):
water, so you would have sandbars, deep trough sandbars. So Gilbert's bar
was the sandy shoal that the piratekind of frequented, and he did frequent
the area a lot. There's alot of theories and stories and even ghost
stories surrounding Don Pedro Guilbert, andone of them commonly is that on a
(08:35):
darkly lit night, you might seehis ship in the Indian River lagoon all
lit up. So that's an interestingstory. But the House of Refuge itself,
it is the oldest wood structure hereon the east coast in Martin County.
It was built in eighteen seventy six, and its purpose back then as
(08:56):
a house of refuge was quite literallythat it was a house where people could
seek refuge. Now, because weare called the Treasure Coast for those of
you who are not in Florida,if you look on a map, the
central part of the state is commonlyknown as the Treasure Coast. Because of
these bars, people would oftentimes findthemselves wrecked shipwrecked. So back in the
(09:20):
late eighteen hundreds, shipwrecks were socommon that the Life Saving Service came up
with a plan to create ten housesof refuge, and they sat roughly seventy
ish miles away from each other,so consecutively down the coast. So in
theory, if you wrecked anywhere inthat you know mileage, you could walk
(09:45):
north or south and find a houseof refuge, and that house of refuge
back then was commonly run by afamily or not. It would just be
you know, a single man,but if he was married, it would
be his wife and kids, andit would be up to the keeper of
the house and his family to takecare of the shipwreck survivors. And we
are the last remaining one. Sobecause these houses sat so close to shore,
(10:09):
you can imagine the elements that gavethese houses a beating, whether it
was wind or salt water. Noneof them remain anymore, so we are
the last one. So it's veryimportant to keep this house alive and well.
And from what I understand, manyof the areas that had houses of
refuge sitting on them, even thoughthe buildings aren't there anymore, they later
became either coast Guard observation points andmaybe even coast Guard station. Is that
(10:33):
correct? Yeah, So actually we'rea really good example of that. So
we went through a couple different services. So the first one was the life
saving service, and then it wentinto coast Guard, and then it became
a naval base during World War Two, and then it was decommissioned in the
fifties, and that is when MartinCounty and the Historical Society Martin County took
(10:54):
it over. Now I've got justa for you here. Is it haunted?
What do you think? Yeah?Yeah, it's probably one of the
more famous spots down in your neckof the woods, which just to give
folks an idea of Vero Beaches aboutforty miles north of Stuart where this is
(11:16):
right now. So it's a veryinteresting spot. And if you ever come
down this way, even if youjust you're not looking for a paranormal event,
please go by there and see that. Now we're just we're going to
take our break here in a fewminutes, and we're going to get into
a little bit more about the Houseof Refuge and the stories and things that
come out of there and the ElliottMuseum. But how did you get interested
(11:39):
in the paranormal? You seem tobe a very fact based person that you
know, looks for the truth.At least some people have said to me,
how can you believe in the paranormal? I'm a cop, I searched
for the truth. How can Ibelieve it? Tell us about your story
and how you got interested in theparanormal. Well, I was born and
raised in Florida, and I havea very vivid memory of my first paranormal
(12:03):
experience, which, in my opinion, set it off for life. So
I was about five years old andmy father graduated the University of Florida,
and as a kid, we wouldoftentimes go to football games up in Gainesville
and yep, yep, yep,and we oh. I wish I had
my Gators jacket on, but Idon't. And we stayed at this house
(12:26):
in Micanopie, which is a veryold Florida town. It's like a Cracker
town, but it's called the herLong Mansion. And if you ever have
a chance to go there, fromwhat I remember as a kid, I
mean, it was just full ofcrazy experiences. But the one in particular
I'm talking about. I was fiveyears old and I had to use the
(12:48):
restroom, which was downstairs, Somy mother walked me downstairs, and there
was a woman in white in along, flowy white gown who had this
aura about her. It was awhite aura, and I asked. I
remember tugging on my mom's arm saying, hey, mom, who's that woman?
And my mother was like, whatwoman? And when we got downstairs
(13:11):
and I was in the bathroom,there was another ghost in the bathroom with
me, and it was a differentcolor and it was green. And it's
an image that is like forever burnedin my mind. And because of that
image in my mind, I feellike I've just always known paranormal activity exists,
(13:33):
but it created this never ending pursuitof the truth to what I saw
because it's obviously unexplainable and at sucha young age, you know, to
me, I didn't even think aboutit other than, hey, there's somebody
else in this room with us.Are they alive? What's the story here?
Historian paranormal researcher. We've got alot to talk about, but we're
(13:54):
going to take our first break down, so folks stay with us here on
paranormal stakeout with my guests. ChessieRica will be back after these messages,
and we're back with my guests tonight, Chessie Rica down at Stuart,
Florida. Chessee. We've talked alot about your historical background and how you
got into the paranormal, but fora long time you were a part of
(14:16):
a group, very fine group Iknow of down in the West bomb beach
area or party paranormal? How didyou connect with them? And why did
you connect with them? Ah,that's actually a really funny story. I
was interestingly at a potluck and Iwas eavesdropping on a conversation behind me while
I was waiting in mind to getfood, and this gentleman behind me was
(14:39):
talking about how he had to leavesoon because he was going on a ghost
hunt. And instantly my ears perkedup, and I remember apologizing and saying,
hey, I couldn't help, butoverhear you know this private conversation you
were having. But can I askwhat this paranormal you know, ghost hunt
thing is about? And he actuallyinvited me on the spot and said I
(15:00):
could join them that night. Andit was at a cemetery in Tequesta,
Florida called Riverside Drive. It boastsa celebrity, so Perry Como is buried
there for all you listeners who knowwho Perry Como is. He is a
singer before my time. And andI went and I met his team and
(15:28):
they just seemed like a really interesting, down to earth group of people who
put a lot of emphasis on theresearch portion of the paranormal prior to this
team, I had very limited experiencedoing any sort of paranormal ghost hunts,
we'll call it, because at thatpoint I didn't do any research. So
(15:48):
you know, I think about SaintAugustine and they have the trolley tours,
and that really was kind of myonly experience with paranormal was doing tours.
So one of the ones I didbefore that with Savannah, Georgia, where
they take you around and they showyou some old buildings and tell you to
take pictures and you may or maynot see something on your camera. So
that was my experience with paranormal priorto joining this team. So when I
(16:11):
saw the team, they put alot of emphasis on the tools that they
use, and they took a lotof pride in how they built these tools
in their garages, just using oldcomponents that weren't in use anymore. And
I really, as somebody who alwaystried tries to get to the truth of
(16:36):
any story, I really thoroughly enjoyedthe passion that they put into acquiring evidence
and then trying to disprove what theymay or may not capture. And that's
war party. They're a really interestingresearch paranormalking and a good team and we've
had the fortunate, the fortunate enoughto investigate with them ourselves. They're they're
(17:02):
they're good folks. So hi doesappscotting all those folks down those neck of
the woods. So that got youinto it, and you worked with them
for quite a while. And nowyou're still in Martin County. Uh.
I know that you've been to FellasMayor a few times. You've seen what
we had up there. Let's getto the House of Refuge. So many
(17:22):
stories circular rate circulating around this arearegarding what occurs there. Have you experienced
anything there yourself? Not very often, but most recently in October, I
did have a small experience there,which isn't abnormal for me to have,
(17:45):
uh, given it's the month ofHalloween. We had two separate teams come
and do an event for the museum, so you could pay, you know,
a certain amount of money and youcould have a private ghost hunt with
a local team. And I,as curator, was kind of keeping my
distance and letting the group do theirthing. And I just make sure that
(18:07):
the property doesn't get harmed. Nobody'ssmoking cigarettes or anything on the property.
And I was standing outside between thehouse and the ocean, and I saw
two shadow figures just bolt across theproperty. And I've seen shadow people before.
(18:29):
A lot of times I see them. I've been to Ortona, which
is just south of Lake Okuchobe.If you're looking at a map, I've
seen shadow people there. But thiswas interesting because everybody in the group,
it was like twenty people. Theyall had glow sticks on their chests so
that we knew who was a paidguest. And then obviously we had the
(18:52):
two paranormal investigators and everybody had astation. We had walkie talkies, so
I knew where everybody was. Therewas nobody else side I have. I
have a visual of the doors,so if anybody came outside, and I
mean it was like the fastest thingyou could ever see, and it was
clear as day, just these reallydark, shadowy figures, and they bolted
(19:15):
from the north side of the outsidefacade to the south side, just zoom,
just so fast, fast enough towhere you could pick out a shape,
but too fast for any live humanto want to run across a really
old rickety patio. And whether ornot that you know that was a person's
(19:37):
shadow, I tried to debunk it. There were no cars going by.
I tried to recreate myself to seeif that cast it a shadow, and
and it was really neat because Idon't experience a lot of things there now
the House of Refuge, Yes,so I there. I've been in this
position. I've been working there forabout three years. And there's a lot
(19:59):
of old timers who take pride inMartin County history, and so they've spent
a considerable amount of time either beinga docent or just visiting the House of
Refuge, and a lot of timesI get to hear ghost stories in those
conversations. Now, those people willask me if I experienced the same thing
they did, and I have tosadly let them down and say, no,
(20:21):
I did not experience that. ButI also get to hear, you
know, these really interesting oral historiesabout the paranormal that haus a refuge.
And I think that's the one thingthat I'm impressed with is the fact that
you just don't jump on the bandwagonand hear what everybody else's experienced and say,
oh, I have too. Imean that's the mark of a good
(20:41):
researcher. So I applaud you forthat. How often How long have the
stories been going on there, andprobably what's the most common story that comes
out of the house, if thereis one. Well, the land itself
is just so old. You Alot of our listeners aren't in state.
But if you look at a mapof Martin County and you look at Hutchinson
(21:04):
Island where the House of Refuge sits, it's a really thin barrier island.
You could walk from ocean to intracoastalin a matter of feet where the House
of Refuge is. It's very thinthere. And before there were you know,
(21:26):
Europeans that came over to Florida,it was inhabited by Native Americans.
So actually there's burial mounts all overthe island, and oftentimes when we have
a big erosion from US big stormor hurricane, we have Native American bodies
pop out. Now they are protected, it is an archaeological site, and
(21:48):
there are a few archaeological organizations thatmonitor these sites. But there are bodies
and they're old. I mean notone hundred, not three hundred, not
five hundred thousands of your old NativeAmerican burials. So that's kind of the
start of anything that might be paranormal. And then you have to put into
(22:08):
consideration the seventeen fifteen fleet. Youknow, those were ten massive ships carrying
dowry from there were two yeah,basically I mean Mexico and South and they
were traveling through the Bahama Channel anda hurricane rectum and stream the wreckage for
(22:33):
miles along the coast, hence thename of the Treasure Coast. But a
lot of people died, and thatwas the you know, seventeen hundreds.
Then you have the eighteen hundreds wherethere was all sorts of lawlessness going on
and frontier justice and sorts. Butthen in more contemporary history in the nineteen
hundreds, the House Refuge definitely sawdeath as well. In nineteen oh four,
(22:57):
there were two consecutive shipwrecks that happenedwithin twenty four hours of each other.
So the first one was the wreckageof the Georges Valentine, which was
mid October of nineteen oh four,and the second one was the day after.
And the first wreck saw I wantto say seven lives were lost,
(23:21):
and I can't speak on behalf ofthe second wreck, but you have to
imagine this is, you know,the heart of a hurricane and people if
you had a picture of the Houseof refuge, it would be easier to
explain. But this part of Floridais well known for their rock formations.
On the beach, there's a rockformation. The rocks are called Anastasia rocks.
(23:45):
I don't know why they're called thatname, but they're these large,
intimidating rocks because they're high above water, they're high above sand. They're not
sharp, but they're very holy,and the barnacles on them are sharp.
And one of the ship log orthe the keeper of the House of Refuge,
(24:07):
in his log book from that night, described the men who were I
forget the word he used, butbasically, the ship that wrecked was carrying
lumber and the combination of high windsand rough seas impaled. So these seven
men were impaled against these rocks withthe lumber. So it was a pretty
(24:30):
ominous evening, you know. Andto as a paranormal researcher, to think
about that type of energy being leftthere, there's no doubt in my mind
you would get some sort of activityfrom that. I mean, that's just
a horrible sight to envision. Imentioned that there's stories of seeing Menendez's ship
(24:51):
in the in the river, whichis essentially inter coastal waterway between the mainland
and the Barrier Islands. But doyou have folks talk about seeing sailors or
Spanish seamen that are on the beach. I've heard a few stories of people
who have captured I've seen a photographsomebody captured a black mist in the background
(25:18):
between them and the ocean, sothe mist was behind them and the beach
was behind them. But more oftentimes, I think the what I hear the
most in terms of the beach isactually sound. Now, Florida's East coast
is definitely covered with houses and allsorts of building right up to the shoreline,
(25:38):
but the sounds that I got reportsof were like drumming and chanting and
things that you wouldn't necessarily hear intoday's time period. One of those stories
takes place before you get into thatstory. We've got to take our next
break. So when we get back, folks, we're going to finish talking
about the House of Refuge, Butthen we're going to talk about some that
(26:00):
lawlessness that went on in this neckof the woods during Prohibition and a group
called the Ashley Gang. So staywith us a lot more to talk about.
Be right back and Welcome back toParanormal Steakout with my guest night CHESSI
Rica the uh dose. I'm sorry, the curator of the Martin County Historical
Society down in Stuart, Florida.So I want to finish this little story
(26:22):
that you began. I had tointerrupt you on, so go ahead and
finish that, and then I wantto start talking about the other group.
Of course, go ahead and finishyour story. You know, I can't
even remember will we were discussing,Yeah, it was so long ago.
Well let's get into the Ashley gigthen, excuse me. This was a
(26:48):
group that many looked at as beinga Body and Clyde type of group before
Bonnie and Clyde and they excuse me, and they ran the ran rampant down
here in the central part East centralpart of Florida for a number of years
back in the twenties. So I'mgonna let you go ahead talk about who
(27:11):
the Ashleys were and what paranormal storiesare connected with them. Also, go
ahead. Yes, so the AshleyGang actually is not as well known as
they should be in my opinion,given the story. But in my research,
I trace the family back now JohnAshley was the leader of this gang
(27:37):
of bank robbers and moonshiners. Hisfamily are Florida crackers going back generations.
So you have like John Ashley's fatherwho worked on Flaggler's railroad when it came
down. They actually lived in cedarKey for a while before John was born.
(27:57):
So going back into the early eighteenhundreds, the family is a typical
Florida family given the time period.A lot of the men served in whatever
war was going on at the time, which they've definitely served in both the
Seminole Wars and the Civil War.And you know, their jobs were very
(28:25):
typical back then. So this ispre nineteen hundreds. We're talking eighteen hundreds
here, Florida. And when youthink about that, you picture, you
know, citrus, railroads, lumber, turpentine, and cattle. So this
family literally did all of that andit was seasonal. Now, Florida was
(28:49):
kind of the last frontier. It'swhere you know, the Northern States kind
of sent there their rejects or it'swhere people came to find freedom. I
think a lot of people overlooked thebeauty of the state back then. Also
people came down here to hide too, exactly. Yes, So the family
(29:10):
prior to the leader of the gang, John Ashley, being born. The
family actually suffered a lot. Therewas a lot of death back then,
and there was a lot of feuding. Florida was known for cattle feuds and
the family was involved in what wasa famous cattle feud back in the day,
but it seems to have kind ofgotten forgotten to time. And actually
(29:32):
this cattle feud in the late eighteenhundreds is what brought the family from the
West Coast over to the East coastto try to build a new life from
themselves, you know, just getout of this drama and the constant threat
of a gun behind your back,because that's what feuding was like back then.
You never know if you were goingto get shot off your horse.
And so the family moved to Pompinoin the early nineteen hundreds. The dad,
(29:56):
Joe Ashley, got a job workingon the train, building train tracks
and stuff like that. But Florida'sjobs were seasonal. So if you know,
they all did agriculture in some wayor another. They grew some sort
of fruit, whether it was pineappleor citrus, and when that season was
(30:18):
slow, you probably were a hunteror a trapper. Or you did guided
hunts, or you were a fishingguide. You know, that's kind of
what the state had to offer.So the family eventually got brought up into
what was pom Beach County prior toMartin County's founding in nineteen twenty five.
(30:38):
So again, if you're looking ata map, pom Beach County was a
lot bigger before nineteen twenty five,so the whole area was different back in
those next But John Ashley ended upgetting here, he ended up getting mixed
up in some lawlessness that included somebankruptries, try to rob a train and
stewart. But I don't want toget it too far ahead of myself.
(31:00):
No, no, not at all. It's a really complicated story, to
be honest. But the brief synopsisof it was this was a poor family
and you kind of had to dowhat you had to do to survive.
And when they weren't hunting and trappingor growing food, you were selling hides,
(31:21):
you were making liquor, you wereselling moonshine to be able to feed
your family. And it was alarge family. So what started the whole
drama took place in nineteen eleven whenJohn Ashley was sent down by his father
to go deliver some otter hides tomake money. And John was no stranger
to working with the Seminole tribe ofFlorida. I mean, back then there
(31:42):
were seminole outposts kind of all overthe place. And so John and another
fellow he was a seminal, hisname was the Sodo Tiger. They got
on a canoe and paddled their waysouth to go sell these otter hides.
And there, yeah, I don'tknow what happened. Now go ahead,
(32:08):
we can hear you. Go aheadand go ahead and finish the st I'm
here. So what happened was atsome point between the seminole outposts and where
they went to sell first, theSoda Tiger's body mysteriously ended up in a
canal and it was found by adredgmen about two days later. And so
(32:30):
this really was the beginning of thisstory of John Ashley being on the run
from cops or the sheriffs back then. Now he went through a lot of
issue after this. But one ofmy mentors, Steve Carr, told me
(32:50):
this quote and I never forgot it. He said, you can't tell history
by today's standards. You have totell history by history standards, and the
truth of the matter was if aSeminole Indian died, then it wasn't that
not that big of a deal.But it just wasn't reported in the news.
It wasn't you know, it wasn'tsomething that was really noteworthy. It's
unfortunate and it's not something that wecan we look at and condon't today.
(33:15):
But it's history. I understand exactlywhat you're saying. Yeah, and that's
a tough thing to kind of describe, but it So they blamed John Ashley
for the death. Is that whatI'm getting? Oh? Yeah, So
John, which was just kind ofunheard of, is like, now there's
there was this sensation in the stateand even nationwide of you know, this
guy John Ashley killing Desoda Tiger.And the issue was is Desoda Tiger was
(33:37):
a seminal chief son. So itwas kind of a big deal to the
to the Seminole tribe of Florida.And John Ashley escaped back home, So
he escaped the law, he escapedarrest, and he made it back home
to Martin County, and this negativitydidn't stop following him. So he had
(34:01):
a worn out you know, hewas going to trial for you know,
the death of Desoda Tiger, andthree trials later, and he's still on
the loose. And after well,during these trials, John and his gang
of random men that came from allover. One came from Chicago, one
(34:22):
one was a stranger that got offof a train track or train, and
one was like a drug addict thatthey found in prison, and they all
just kind of started this band ofmerry men. But the only way John
could make money without the law wasto conduct business illegally, and and his
(34:42):
way of avoiding the law was justto make money by robbing a bank,
which you know, we found sourcesthat proved the reason why he robbed the
bank was to be able to payfor his lawyer, because he couldn't afford
a lawyer, you know. Andthen the other side of the family is
making moonshine well, and they endedup to make to kind of make a
longer story short, they end upgetting into a shootout down in your neck
(35:05):
of the woods where John's father died. They took off ended up the old
Dixie Highway into my neck of thewoods up here in the Indian River County
area and they were killed in nineteentwenty four by the sheriff of Saint Lucie
County up in this neck of thewoods. And I kind of shortened up
the story for you a little bit, but that's essentially what happened. They
(35:27):
were running moonshine in the glades RobinBanks, and they were even importing boos
weren't they. Oh yeah, ohyeah, because the Bahamas was international there
were no booze laws over there duringthe Prohibition, so as long as you
didn't get caught state side, itdidn't matter, now, correct me if
(35:47):
I'm wrong. Also, but theAshy Gang was also looked out almost like
Robin Hood type of character by manypeople in the southern end of what is
now Martin County, if I gotthat correct. Also, yeah, absolutely,
See, the story is so misunderstood, and it's actually kind of sad
because you have one side of thestory that paints him as this really negative
(36:07):
character, but then you have theother side of the story that really comes
from like his neighbors and the peoplehe grew up with, and these people
in their oral histories or their writtenhistories, they didn't praise John, but
they just described him as a reallynice person with a good heart, and
when he was on the run,he would stop in silently to a neighbor's
(36:30):
house for food and he would befed. And when he left, the
woman who picks up the plates orplate noticed that there was a twenty dollars
gold piece under the plate, andthat was something John was known for,
was leaving money in exchange for food. So obviously when they started selling moonshine,
(36:51):
John acquired some money and when hewas on the run, he was
able to pay for his things,and the local popular really did see him
as a robin Hood because a lotof people back then did not like the
law. The law was just ascrooked as you know that your neighbor next
door. Everybody was just trying tomake a buck. True. And one
(37:16):
of my favorite stories is ash sheleaving an elderly woman and I don't know
how accurate this is, but hershe was about to lose her house to
the bank and she wakes up onemorning to find enough money to cover the
mortgage under a rock by her frontdoor, and that kind of endeared people
to them. But eventually they endup getting into the shootout. They end
(37:36):
up heading up into the North Endof Saint Lucie County, which is now
where I'm at Indian River County,got caught by the law, captured,
they never made it to jail.That's a very short version of it.
So their reign of terror ran prettymuch the entire east coast of Florida all
(37:57):
the way up into our air.Are you here? Died in November of
twenty four, but there are ghoststories attached to the Ashley Gang and all
the things that they were involved in. Can we got about a minute for
a break? Can you give usone just briefly before we take our break,
and then we'll I'll let you thinkabout something. So they died October
(38:20):
thirty first of nineteen twenty four.And what night is that? All?
Hell Isy Halloween? Yeah? Ohthat's interesting, yeap. So November one,
October thirty first, November first istheir night of their death. It's
almost one hundred years. Yeah.And the one story that I am aware
of that where they were killed onthe bridge going into from present day Indian
(38:43):
River County into Brevard County, whichwas where Cape Neverlis. There's still gunshots
heard in the area where the bridgewas at the time, and there's been
reports of that. So when weget back, we're about ready to take
our last break. I want tohear some ghost stories about the Ashley Gang,
and then I want to talk toyou a little bit about the importance
of history and historic I'm sorry,historical research and the paranormal research. So
(39:05):
stay with us, fokes. We'llbe back right after this message and welcome
back to Paranoral Steakout. My guesttonight, the curator of the Martin County
Historical Society, chessi Rica, joiningus from Stewart, Florida, want to
make a couple comments real quick.If you'd like to find out more about
the Florida Bureau of Paranormal Investigation andIndian River Hauntings, you can catch us
on our website Paranormal FBI dot comor Indian River Hauntings dot com. Also
(39:30):
our Facebook channel if you'd like tocheck out some of the things that we're
doing at Indian River Hauntings two threefour one. And also if you'd like
to get a hold of me,send me a message, maybe ask a
question that I'll bring up at thebeginning of each show. You can get
a hold of me at ghost Guyat Paranormal steakout dot org. Also,
you can check out the entire programand all my shows at Paranormal steakout dot
(39:52):
org. But I'd be remiss ifI didn't mention all the other great programming
on the Xzone Radio and TV broadcastnetwork. ZBN dot net will get you
to all of the great shows onthe network, and I really encourage you.
There's some really interesting things out there. And of course my friend Rob
McConnell and his show The XO.So take a look at that, Jesse.
(40:15):
How can folks find out more aboutyou? The House of Refuge,
the Eliot Museum got a website orsomeplace they can check. Yeah, we
do have a website at www dotHSMCFL dot org is our website. But
you can just give a simple Googlesearch and the House or Refuge will take
you directly to us. So folkscheck that out. So I gave you
(40:40):
a lesson here before we got back, and talking about history tonight is not
a thing that we get a chanceto do enough on this show because history
is so very important. But I'vegiven you a few minutes to think about
that history and some ghost stories thatgo with the Ashley Gang, So go
for it. Yeah, there's ahandful of stories. So you briefly talked
(41:06):
about the shootout site, and theshootout briefly is just what happened between the
sheriffs and the Ashley's at their MoonshineStill. There were two deaths, so
John's father died and then one ofthe sheriffs died. So you have and
this is at their Moonshine still.So you have to think about and I'm
(41:28):
always thinking about the energy left overfrom incidents like this where there was a
big emotional experience. What happens tothat emotional energy? Is it left behind
that? You know? That's kindof where I believe in more of a
residual haunting. So that specific area. One of the first stories I would
like to tell is actually recorded inwriting in the I can't remember which book
(41:54):
it is. I want to sayit's the Notorious Ashley Gang. But one
of the members of the the gangitself, his name was Albert Miller.
Now, after the boys were killedin nineteen twenty four, Albert Miller left
and never came back, and herefused his entire life to talk to anybody
(42:15):
about it. So there's really nowritten account of Albert Miller during or after
any of this. We do knowtoday that he's no longer with us.
I think he died a couple ofdecades ago. But his story is later
in life, he finally came backto where the Moonshine still was, and
(42:37):
it took him decades to be ableto come back because the trauma of what
happened was so much for him.You know, he was shot at at
the Moonshine Still shootout, He hada book shot, he almost took his
arm off, So that's a lotof you know, that's a lot of
trauma. So he came back laterin life, and he was still petrified
(42:58):
in his old age to be therebecause he was astantly afraid that the law
was after him, even all theseyears later. So he goes by himself
and he parks his car and hestarts walking down a sandy trail where you
can picture the big pine trees,just a hidden trail, and he's walking
to the Ashley Cemetery, which isin super close proximity to where the Moonshine
(43:23):
still was, and he's just goingto pay his respects. And so as
he's walking down this trail, thesandy trail, he starts to notice something
that he didn't expect, which wassounds of a moonshine still and the light
that was coming off of the flamethat was used to light the mash in
(43:45):
the moonshine still, And so heis getting closer and closer, and he's
questioning himself. He's questioning, hewants to turn back. Is this real?
Is this fake? What am Iexperiencing? And you know, he's
hearing, you know, the stirringof the mash, He's hearing the glasses
(44:06):
clinking against each other. He's he'shearing a moonshine still in operation. He's
hearing laughter, He's hearing his friendscommunicating for the first time in decades.
And so he's questioning his reality.He's questioning if his friends were even shot
at are they still alive this wholetime? And he had no idea that
(44:27):
that for decades his his friends werestill alive and well, So he gets
closer to the cemetery and the soundsand sights get brighter and louder, and
he makes it around the bend andsets his eyes on the cemetery and everything
disappeared. All the sounds went away, the light went away, and he
was just there alone with the gravemarkers of his friends. And that was
(44:54):
one of the first Ashley stories Iever heard. I took you to the
cemetery a couple of weeks ago,and you got to see how kind of
remote it was. Granted it's ona golf course in a gated community,
yeah, but it's still If youdidn't know it's there, you would have
(45:15):
no idea that there's a cemetery there. Surprisingly, even though it's just west
of Dixie that back then was noman's land now. So they I,
like I said, before the commercialbreak, they were shot. They were
making their way up. The theoryis that they were going up to Jacksonville
to get work because the law wastoo much for them down here, and
(45:38):
so on Hollowey night, it wasa rainy, rainy night, they were
driving north from Martin County into SaintLucie County and they were shot by four
police officers, shot dead in coldblood with handcuffs on them, so they
(45:58):
had no way to defend themselves.So years later this became a popular like
paranormal destination is the bridge that theywere killed on is no longer there.
There's a new bridge there, butjust to the west of the current bridge
sits where the old bridge used tobe, And I think if you park
(46:19):
and maybe do some illegal trespassing,which I don't condone, you might find
some residual pilings from that bridge there. So I think, trust me.
Oh good, okay, I it'sbeen a while. Not that I didn't
do that. I didn't do anythingilegal. I don't do that. But
anyway, so on Halloween nights,oftentimes, if you're an Ashley fan,
(46:45):
you'll find people there trying to communicatewith John to get the truth to you
know, capture some sort of evidence, either on the recorder, on on
a cell phone or a camera.You know, there's a lot of people
interested in the paranormal side of theAshley story, and there's so many reasons
for that. What do you thinkthis paranormal thing is? Now, we've
(47:07):
talked a lot about the history tonight, we've talked a little bit about your
background, but what is your theoryabout ghosts? Oh? Gosh, Well,
you know, I have ideas onall sorts of different types of haunting
because I've experienced in doing the ghostshunts with War Party, paranormal the different
(47:30):
levels of haunting you know, I'veI've seen video footage. We did an
experiment where we were in the GulfStream Hotel which is in Lake Worth,
and we did this experiment where weplayed you know, music from the time
period of when the hotel was inits boom era, and we captured a
live video of a woman shadow beingtwisted around like she was being danced in
(47:54):
a ballroom dance because we were inthe ballroom and here's evidence of dancing.
So to me, like that typeof physically did you physically see that when
it happened or did you just seeit after you watched the video after Yeah,
after the video was taken it wasI think it's still on Facebook.
You can find it. It's abeautiful video. But to me, that
(48:15):
that was triggered by sound and location. So for me, that would be
like a residual energy that's that's leftthere now. I also have experienced like
smart entities or smart type of investigationwhere they can you know, actively answer
(48:35):
questions with a knock or you know, in a device of some sort.
So I mean to say, toask what my beliefs are, I certainly
can say with one hundred percent certaintythat I believe in ghosts, but I
certainly believe that every ghostly experience isspecial in and of itself. I think
there's so many different circumstances that thatare in play, given you know,
(49:00):
the specific type of haunting. Imean, well, how does historical research
play into paranormal investigations? And that'skind of how I'd like to wrap up
tonight, being a history in yourself, how do you see the two connected
and how important are they to beconnected? Well, obviously, I'm very
(49:21):
passionate about the Ashley Gang, butI'm also equally passionate about research and historical
research at that. So when I'mdoing and we'll take the Ashley Gang as
an example, when I'm conducting mymy Ashley Gang research, like Menendez,
I use primary sources and I alsouse secondary sources. So primary sources would
be you know, diaries or newspaperarticles from the time or anything that was
(49:49):
first hand account. Then you getinto secondary sources. How is that important?
Yeah? Yeah? How does that? How is that important to paranormal
research? How was all right,the historical research important to the paranormal So
when I'm finished, like doing mymundane research, where I go into the
primary and secondary source material. Ialways question, like at night in the
(50:15):
back of my mind, after workor whatever. I want to get into
the emotional aspect of these histories.I want to know what these people were
feeling. I want to know whatthey were thinking. I want to know
what happened. And the only wayI can, in my mind, as
a paranormal researcher I can think todo that is to utilize the spiritual realm
(50:37):
as a form of research as well. So you know, in my downtime,
if I can tag along with warparty and conduct some historical paranormal interviews,
I'll try to reach out to thegang or their family, and I'll
come up with a list of questionsand I'll try to see if I can
get any type of paranormal evidence thatcan help me lead me down another trail
(51:00):
or answer any questions I have.Well, what about if you get a
you get some information your investigation aname, for example, how can the
research that you do help verify thatthere's anything really to this name? Well?
There, I yeah, So Igo if I get a name like
(51:22):
that, absolutely, Like I'll gethome or the next day at work and
I'll just start researching that and seeif I can connect any ties. And
sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Most of the time I'm asking yes
or no questions, and then I'llget into specifics and and a lot of
times I am just kind of leftwith nothing but everyone or more questions or
(51:46):
more question Unfortunately, Jesse, ourtime is about to run out. But
I do want to thank you verymuch for joining me tonight. I appreciate
the history lesson and I hope,folks, that you get a better view
of what Florida really is. It'snot just sand and sun and citrus fruit.
It's a place of great historical significance. So appreciate you being with us
(52:07):
tonight. Please do take care,hug your family, and until we meet
again, take care and we'll seeyou on the other side. Have a
good night to overs.
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