January 12, 2024 • 54 mins
“Cat”, as he is known started reading tarot at age 13. A military veteran, “Cat” became intrigued with different teachings and has been a Pagan since 1991.
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Please note that all XZBN radio and/or television shows are Copyright © REL-MAR McConnell Meda Company, Niagara, Ontario, Canada – www.rel-mar.com. For more Episodes of this show and all shows produced, broadcasted and syndicated from REL-MAR McConell Media Company and The 'X' Zone Broadcast Network and the 'X' Zone TV Channell, visit www.xzbn.net. For programming, distribution, and syndication inquiries, email programming@xzbn.net.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:09):
Welcome to the Paranormal Stakeout Radio TVshow with Larry Lawson. As a former
career law enforcement officer and law enforcementeducator, Larry focuses on the use of
tried and true law enforcement investigated techniquesin conducting paranormal investigations. Despite his experience
and training, Larry also and keepsan open mind to discussions on topics that
(00:33):
deal with evidence that are not quiteas physical in nature. Paranormal Stakeout guests
are professionals in the field of theparanormal and parapsychology, conducting the investigations and
research needed to further the cause ofparanormal study. Larry advocates an agenda of
standardization of structure and training in thefield of paranormal investigation and research for the
(00:56):
purpose of one day being able toproduce the evidence needed to convince a jury
of the existence of the paranormal.Whether it is ghosts, UFOs, unsolved
mysteries, hauntings, or cryptids,no topic is beyond the investigative reach of
Larry Lawson and the Paranormal Steakhout RadioTV show team. Now Here is the
host of the Paranormal Steakout Radio TVshow Larry Lawson, and good evening everyone,
(01:37):
Welcome back to Paranormal Steakout. I'myour host, Larry Lawson, coming
to you from beautiful Vero Beach,Florida, where it's a bomby sixty five
degrees I think right now, whichirritates our friends at the exone headquarters up
in Canada, but it's a nice, nice time to be in Florida during
the winter. I want to thankeverybody for being here tonight, and if
you want to learn a little bitmore about what we do down here at
(02:00):
Florida, at the headquarters of theFlorida Bureau of Paranormal Investigation and Indian River
Hauntings, check us out at ourwebsites at paranormalfbi dot com or Indianriver Hauntings
dot com. You can also checkus out on our YouTube channel, which
is at Indian River Hauntings two threefour one, and you can get a
(02:21):
hold of me also at ghost Guyfifty nine at gmail dot com. Now,
as far as the show here is, you can check out all the
other programs we've had on Paranormal Steakout. Go to Paranormal Steakout dot org and
if you'd like to send me amessage, let me know what you think
of the show. Maybe you've gotsome questions, some things that you'd like
to see discussed. Go ahead andwrite me at ghost Guy at Paranormal steakout
(02:43):
dot org. Also would like youto check out the x on Radio and
TV Proadcast Network for all the greatprogramming there. Now, as most of
you knowing is the name of theshow kind of gives it away. I
spent forty years in law enforcement,and during that time I spent a lot
of time investigating and teaching police officershow to investigate crimes involving as victims or
(03:09):
otherwise. Alternative religions, whether itbe the Southern Africabbean cults, voodoos about
Polomombe Centaia, whether it be involvedbikers. There are all kinds of different
groups out there. I spent alot of time teaching officers how to recognize
(03:29):
and how to talk to folks thatare in different religious sects and spiritual beliefs.
So tonight I really wanted to bringsomebody on the show that can talk
about some of the things that youmay not really think about in spirituality,
and it's some alternate religions, particularlyWika and their spiritual beliefs, and also
(03:51):
involving what they think about the otherside, what happens with life after death.
So with that, I'd like tointroduce to you my guest tonight as
Cat. He's known as Cat.He's a veteran of our military and he's
been studying the cult since he's beena pagan since nineteen ninety one and began
reading tarot cards at age thirteen.I said, he served our country in
(04:12):
the military, so we thank youfor your service, Kat, and welcome
to the show, my honor sir, thank you for having me. Yeah,
it's an interesting subject because we spenta lot of time in this show
talking about paranormal events, whether itbe ghosts, script as UFOs, but
often that discussion turns towards spirituality andreligion, and sometimes folks don't realize the
(04:34):
differences in religions or beliefs out there. So I really appreciate you being on
the show, and if you cantake a second to share with the audience
a little bit about yourself and whatit is you do. So right now,
I'm retired from business life, Ido read tarot cardens. Starting up
(04:57):
a couple of channels for online stuff. We'll see how that goes this year.
Yeah, like yourself, I waslaw enforcement. I was military police
for two years before I got outthat kind of I think that lends itself
very well to what you do andwhat I do, looking at things very
reasonably and logically and seeing, Okay, is there a different explanation for what's
(05:19):
going on here? I agree,And that's called also having a bit of
an open mind, because we can'tstereotype and pigeonhole things because then we don't
get the answers doing. Now youwhat do you character? Let me back
up a little bit. You beganreading tarot cards at age thirteen? I
(05:41):
did what sent you down that roadof tarot cards? And was that the
beginning of your travel towards paganism?It was, And the way I actually
got started is I had a verystrange lady that lived down the street from
me that looking back, that Iwould say was probably the first wicked and
I ever met, Although she didn'tadvertise that, but she gave me a
(06:03):
pack of terror cards when I wasthirteen for my birthday. So what made
her do that? I didn't askfor it. I don't know if she
saw something in me. If intuitivelyshe saw something that said this is something
that I could do. I don'thave an answer for that. So how
(06:25):
did did you self teacher? Didyou self teach yourself how to do it?
Or yeah? I was Actually Iwas the weird kid in school that
the girls would go to at lunchtimeand say, hey, look at your
cards and tell me if this boylikes me. Okay, okay, Well,
obviously that must have sent you downthe path to your spiritual beliefs.
(06:47):
How did that come about? IfI may ask you? Well, again,
starting at that age, got veryinterested in things that weren't common ghosts
and cryptids and legends. I ampart Cherokee, so I have that part,
and I have part of that ismy genetic background and my interest in
(07:09):
Native American low. But what reallygot me started into paganism was when I
got out of the military and Itried to get back into the church where
I was raised, which was Methodist, and it just didn't click for me,
(07:29):
and I was very lost. Iwas a very lost person spiritually,
and I just could not reconcile thatpart of me that had been a warrior
for many years and was then turnedaround and said, hey, you're supposed
to love everybody. And I couldn'tget any reconciliation in my brain with that
(07:50):
whole thing. So I had movedto LA. I was. I met
some very odd people in LA.I think that's kind of a Los Angeles
stereotype, if you want to beweird. Moved to Los Angeles and I
met a fellow service member a bitolder than me. He was a Vietnam
(08:15):
Vet and he was wicked, andwe started out discussing tarot cards and he
gradually introduced me to various and sundrythings, and I felt at home for
the first time in a very longtime. I felt at home. So
that was the beginning. Paganism andWICCA do somewhat go hand in hand.
(08:43):
Would that be a correct statement.Yeah, So let's do a little mental
diagram here. You have Christianity,and Christianity is an umbrella term, and
that covers Catholic, and then thebasic divide from that would be Protestant,
right correct, And then inside Protestantyou would have Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran,
(09:09):
Baptist, all of those, butthey're all still Christian. So pagan
is an umbrella term for anything that'sreally not Christian, non Abrahamic. Let's
put it that way. So,okay, so the Abrahamic religions are Muslim,
Judaism, and Christian right, thoseare considered the Abrahamic religions. So
(09:31):
anything that falls outside of that wouldtechnically be called pagan, even though there's
some people that I'm sure wouldn't appreciatehaving that applied to them, But that's
the division. So then Wika Wickais a very small section under that term
of pagan. So you could compareWickans to being saying Baptist that it's just
(10:00):
yeah, it does. What you'resaying is just a branch of the of
the Paganistic belief system, just likea Catholic and a Methodist or are both
Christian. I totally understand that.What is the history of the Wicca religion
specifically? Okay, so I'm goingto make some people mad here, Well,
(10:20):
that's what we're all about. Wickais comparatively a very young religion.
And the reason that statement is goingto make a lot of people mad is
there's a lot of people in Wiccathat won't say, well, you know,
my part of Wicka goes back,you know a thousand years. No
(10:41):
it doesn't. Wicka was started inthe nineteen thirties by Gerald Gardner, and
that's one of the divisions in WICCAis Gardenerianism and then other people as they
were introduced to that. Just likeany kind of living religious, any kind
(11:07):
of living religion, uh, Christianityhas branched off many times, Wicka is
branched off. You have Gardenerians,you have Alexandrians, you have Dianics,
you have Eclectics. So it keepssplitting as it progresses, and it evolves.
(11:28):
What's the major difference between the differentsects or it's really its little things.
And again I'm going to compare compareit to Christianity. You know,
if you claim to be Christian,then your one belief that unifies all of
that is you have to accept JesusChrist as your Lord and Savior. Would
(11:50):
you say that's a true statement?Okay, yes, So to be to
be to call yourself a Wiccan,you would have to say, I believe
in the we can read, whichat its most basic statement says harm none
and that includes yourself. So thenyou have all kinds of different little divides
(12:11):
and divisions inside that. Gardenerians tendto be very very much into hierarchy.
If you ever meet somebody that says, well, I'm an ordained priestess of
the ninth degree, they're probably Gardenerian. If they start talking about degrees and
initiats and all that, they're probablyGardenerian. They're very, very very hyper
(12:31):
organized. An eclectic. On theother hand, if you have an eclectic
coven, which there used to beone in Urea Beach, I don't know
if it still exists or not.There's one down in Port Saint Lucy if
you're familiar with Port Saint Lucy,called Circle of the Moonlit Sea, and
they are eclectic. So what doeseclectic mean? That means I've got this
(12:52):
little bit here that resonates with me, and I've got this little bit here
and that resonates with me, andI'm going to put it all together in
a blender and I'm going to findthings that feel right in here in my
heart, in my head, thisfeels right. That's eclectic. You have
(13:13):
regional beliefs like witta w I Tt A that's Scottish. Ah. You
could have Italian based on Italian beliefs, that's called Strega. You you have
Norse, you have Norse Pagans.So either how you perceive things or where
(13:41):
it originates, that's your basic divisionsinside Wicca. Would be fair to say
that Wicca doesn't really have standardized likeBaptists and Lutheran sex, that that people
just can be wickaned because of ageneral belief system. Is that? Would
that be an accurate statement? Absolutely, that'd be I'm gonna be a non
(14:03):
denominational Christian because I believe in Jesus. You can certainly be a non denomination
of wicked and say I believe inharm none. Okay, Well with that,
we've come up on our first breakalready, So folks, I'm with
Kat tonight. We're talking about alternatereligions, Paganism and Wicca and how they
connect maybe with the other side.So stay with us. We'll be back
(14:24):
right after these messages and we areback with my guest tonight, Kat talking
about Paganism, Wicca and other alternativereligions. Do wickens. Let me let
me rephrase this a little bit better. Paganism is more of a nature once
again, correct me if if ifI got this wrong, was but more
as a nature based religion, wouldthat be an accurate statement. Yeah.
(14:50):
In general, okay, do Wickensbelieve in God? I'm I'm of the
Baptist faith. Uh, you know, so I have my vision of what
God is. Do Wickens have thesame? Not a all powerful, all
seeing, all knowing being? No, okay, what is your God or
(15:11):
what do you perceive as a higherbeing? So that's again, that's going
to go back to the different divisionsinside Wika. However, in general,
without making too many people mad atme, they're going to say, I
believe in a duality a God anda goddess, and that God and that
Goddess can come in the form ofall different kinds of things. Native American
(15:37):
with my background, you have MotherEarth and Father Sky. Oh let's see
here. If you were, say, in to the Greek pantheon, which
most people know Greco and Roman godsfairly, well, then you might choose
Zeus and Helen for your God andyour goddess. Wick is very much into
(16:00):
dualities. Nothing is just playing good, just playing bad. Nothing's black and
white. There's always something mixed in. Okay. Now, well, will
you say that a lot of Wickenscan be non denominational? If you will,
(16:21):
do you have a generalized scripture thatyou that you abide by. There's
no scripture. It's like I said, it's a living it's a dynamic religion.
It's it's always changing, it's alwaysgrowing. However, if you choose
to call yourself wickan, then youhave to abide by the read, which
is harm none and it's most generalinterpretation. If you belong to a circle,
(16:48):
which is a gathering of wickens,then you probably have a read,
which is just a list of rulesthe circle I belong to a long time.
Go have what we call words tothe wise. But in general,
you're not allowed to harm yourself.You're not allowed to do something that brings
harm to others. And other thanthat, you're free to explore yourself and
(17:14):
your relationship with the divine. Andat its very core, that is wika
is you have a personal relationship withthe divine. There's no building, there's
no man to interpret the words.There's no one to stand in front of
you and tell you this is whatthe divine said. It's strictly between you
(17:38):
and how you perceive the divine.And when you say the divine, you
are referring to the God and theGoddess, the universe. Okay, do
you have it? Is there aonce again, understanding that there is a
lot of free play is a badway to put up. But you's got
(18:00):
a lot of freedom, I guessis a better way to say? Do
you have a Bible a text thatyou generally follow? There's not going to
be a single answer to that,And I'll go back to my comparisons with
Christianity. A Greek Orthodox Catholic wouldnot follow a King James version of the
(18:22):
Bible. Correct, Okay, absolutely, all right. So let's say you
are a Gardenerian again, you're veryfocused on your circles, set of rules
at its hierarchy, and have youlearned enough to advance into the next level
of hierarchy. If you're eclectic,you're out there wandering in the woods,
(18:47):
you're out on the beach, you'relistening to Mama Ocean. You're sitting under
the sky at night looking up atthe moon, and you're going, hey,
I'm here, talk to me.Very very different. A lot of
people look when they hear the termpagan, which we now know is what
the Wickan belief is. Under theumbrellas we talked about before. Most people
(19:11):
look at the Celts from Ireland inEngland and Scotland as being the basis of
this. But that's not necessarily true, is it. No, it's not.
And there is a broad acceptance ofwhat we call the wheel of the
year, which is the turning ofthe seasons. That is a general accepted
(19:33):
concept in WICCA. But if youtalk to someone who is into Straga,
which is the Italian branch, andyou get them talking with a Norse pagan
and a Scottish which is widow,there's a few very basic things that those
three are going to agree on,but the differences are going to be huge.
(19:56):
Yeah. Well, now we've gotkind of a he's the understanding of
what the belief system is. Nowlet's get down to the nitty gritty on
something. Are you a witch?Yes? I am? And do you
have a pointy hat? I gottaknow? Do you have a pointy hats
are not necessary? Oh? Okay, I just wanted not part of the
(20:18):
uniform. I gotcha. Okay,So are you a witch? You are
a witch? Yes? Okay.Now you look at how the public,
how it's been memorialized in film,TV books, Witches are of magical descent.
Magic is a big part of it, but which is also if you
(20:41):
go back into history, Oh,if you go back in the time of
the Satan witches and it was believedthat witch has got their power through Satan,
and we'll talk about that it's specificallyin a little bit. But are
witches involved in magic? And isthe magic evil? So are witches involved
(21:03):
in magic? Yes? They are? Are wickeds involved in magic? Some
of them are, some of themare not. The whole thing about magic
is it's optional. A lot ofpeople that are wicked are just going to
hold the earth is sacred. They'regoing to follow the turning of the seasons.
(21:26):
They're gonna do whatever they can doto help people. I'll again,
harm none and you might do.You have a friend that's sick, and
you may light a candle for them. Gee, that sounds familiar, doesn't
it lighting a candle for somebody.You may burn some incense for them,
Again, that sounds familiar too,in order to help that person get better.
(21:49):
Absolutely, I mean, look lookat the things we use in Christianity
that have similarities to Christmas tree,the Easter, buddy. I mean,
we can definitely, and there's noquestion there was some reasons why there's connections
because the Christian Church wanted to bringfolks over for the pagan so they adopted
(22:11):
a lot of the traditions. Yeah. Absolutely, much easier to get somebody
on board if you don't ostracize everythingthat they want to do. So what
is the money difference between white andblack? Man? Wow, that's okay
(22:32):
again, I'm going to make somepeople mad again, that's what we're here
for. Yeah, So my opinion, the only true white magic that you
can do is that which you doupon yourself to advance your spirituality and your
understanding with the connection to the divine. Anything after that shades into gray,
(22:56):
and anything that you do to harmsomebody aids into black. So I'm going
to restate what I said earlier.If you are going to call yourself wickan,
you have to abide by harm none. That means no black magic.
Interesting. Interesting? Do you actuallyhave some folks that believe that on the
(23:22):
side delves into the black magic?What happened? That's a big no note?
Okay, what if what if awicked does do that? Is there
any type Well, they can't beexcommunicated. No, that's kind of where
I'm going with. Yeah, there'sno real excommunication. If you are involved
(23:48):
in a circle and you have peoplein charge of that, your high priest
and your high priestess, and theyfound out that you did something bad,
they will kick you out. Absolutely. But a lot of wickas are what
they call solitary. They don't belongto a group. They are very content
(24:08):
to explore themselves and their connection andtheir connection to the divine. That's what
they do. Uh okay, Sowe have a little bit of an echo
right now. You wouldn't have tohave a headset, would you? I
(24:29):
do need? Do we need totake a break and let me find it?
Well, let's we're almost ready totake our next break. But at
the break out you can grab aheadset. I'm getting into real bad,
so I appreciate that. So there'sno way to excommunicate or stops. How
do you release yourself? Well,I don't believe that I need a set
(24:55):
of laws. You and I areboth were both former laws enforcement. I
do not need a set of laws. I do not need a religion to
tell me, hey, don't killthat person over there. I don't need
a religion to tell me don't forcemyself on someone who has no interest in
(25:18):
me. That's my morals, that'smy upgrade bringing, that's you know,
my soul, whatever you want tocall it. I don't need that.
That makes sense what it does.But how do you keep somebody who claims
to be wicked when they've crossed theline, how do you? I mean,
(25:41):
there's no way to stop them fromdoing it. Is that kind of
what I'm hearing? Yeah, Imean, I'm sure there's Christians that do
Unchristian things and claim to be Christian. So yeah, you can claim to
be wicked, and you know,you can go out and throw a rock
at your neighbor's dog, or youcan be a bad person. That doesn't
(26:06):
mean that you belong to that religionanymore though, And that's between you and
the divine just like I would assumethat if you are I don't know,
if you're a Lutheran and you goout and you commit a sin, there's
no confession there. Nobody's going tokick you out of your church. That's
between you and your God. Beforewe take our break there, if you
(26:27):
had to pick one, if thereis one thing you can pick that is
a similarity between Christianity Paganism, whichis there one be a good person be
a good person. I cannot arguewith that. Well, once we we're
(26:48):
gonna take our break. Then oncewe get back, we're going to talk
about another belief system that you oftenget thrown in with, and that's Satanism,
and we're going to talk about outthat when we get back. So
folks are going to take our breakdown, stay with us. I've got Kat
talking about alternative religions. We'll seeafter the break and we are back on
(27:10):
Paranor will stake out with my guestKat tonight with airphones on. Hopefully that
echo is gone, So I'm happyabout that. That's I sacrifice my hair
for you here. What a guy? What a guy? What if?
The things that has happened over theyears, there's been a and it happens
(27:37):
in all kinds of areas. Peoplelook at they see a topic and they
think everybody's attached to that topic.And I guess what I'm getting at here
is the topic of Satanism. Now. Back in the late eighties early nineties,
and that's when I began to teachofficers how to recognize certain crime scenes
that had oh satanic or other othermarketing of other kind of violent cults.
(28:02):
For lack of a better term.And what I really began to find out
was that Wicca, which is Satanistsall the same. Now history showed,
History talks about witches back in theday. That's they got their power from
satan That's where the black cat camefrom. That was their familiar that watched
over them and made sure they weredoing what they needed to do. So
(28:25):
there's a lot of connection between whatwitches were described as back in the day
and the belief in Satanism. Iswicca a part of Satanism? No,
it's not. And again I'm goingto go back to the wick and read
harm none. You cannot sacrifice agoat, you cannot sacrifice a person,
(28:51):
You cannot harm any being if you'regoing to be a wickan period. Okay,
here's a question for you and thisare you familiar with Alistair Crawley.
I am. Yeah. What thou, what thou will be the whole of
the law was what he liked tosay in his in his version of Satanism
(29:12):
or black magic, evil whatever.And what I came to find out with
a lot of times it was kidsjust acting crazy, but they would take
that and they would just use thatterm whether it be no harm or what
thou would be, what thou wiltbe? The whole of the law type
(29:33):
of statements is whatever they decided thatmeant. Okay, does that make sense
to you? So how does that? How does that fit in with folks
in the Wicked religion? Do they? I mean they you have the read
you talked about that you talked aboutthe you have a general rule that everybody
follows. But does everybody take thatas well harming nobody? Well, that
(29:57):
doesn't mean I think they want meto harm them, So I will almost
like a cradle like, just doesn'twork that way I do. And the
simple answer to that is you cannotfollow Crowley's teachings and be Wickan. Crowley
(30:18):
did a lot of drugs not allowed. Crowley was rumored, Yeah, well
harm none that includes yourself. AndI don't think anybody could argue the fact
that if you ingest drugs or alcoholto a extreme, they harm your body.
(30:41):
Okay, nobody's gonna argue with that, right. So a lot of
people look at Crowley and they say, Okay, he was not Wickan.
It was rumored that he was Satanic. But again we're talking about Victorian England.
At a hugely different mindset than fromwhat we have now. Mm hmm.
(31:06):
So, Uh Crowley probably gets theside eye from modern wickeds. It's
like, yeah, I know thatguy existed, but not going there.
Well, you you talked about thewicked wicked as a and I agree with
you that the term wicked is arelatively modern term when you think about the
(31:27):
history of how far this went back. But back in the day, Uh
Crowley and a lot of people withhim, the Order of the Golden Dawn,
they all consider themselves to be witchesthat practice black magic. How did
that? How did that bifurcate?How did and a lot of another term
(31:48):
I hear a lot as white witches. Now, I don't know how you
feel about that term, but blackand white when when did that kind of
bifurcate or or was it always likethat? We just didn't know it.
So I've done some study on crowleyingon the Golden Dawn, and it's very,
very difficult to separate the rumor inthe inuendu in endo from what they
(32:12):
actually did. But Golden Dawn wouldcall themselves high magicians, high magic,
which is a whole separate deal fromwitchcraft. And wicca because the purpose of
high magic is to bend reality toyour will. And I don't know of
(32:34):
any witches or wickeds that are interestedin that. We work within nature.
That's our thing is nature and hownature works. How do you how do
you think they do you think thatthat division was in place back in Victorian
times? It's just the stuff atCrowley and his ilk people of his it
(33:00):
did just overshadowed and was more visible, was more sensational. Yeah, absolutely,
because you think about Victorian England.If you had a practicing witch in
Victorian England, they are going todo everything they can possibly do to stay
(33:20):
out of notice of the Catholic Church, of any of the what they call
the sheriffs back then, because therewere still anti witchcraft laws back then and
they could and would drag you offto jail. So if you're practicing witchcraft,
you wanted to stay out. Plus, traditionally, people that practice witchcraft
(33:43):
live out out in the middle ofnothing. I live out in the middle
of acres and acres of orange groves. There's no city within five miles of
me. Crowley, all of theGolden Dawn lived in London, and they
made it. They flouted what theydid. They wanted to be recognized.
(34:06):
You're you're witchcraft first year witchcraft practicyear. They might be known to the
local village, but they don't wantto come to the attention of the authorities.
Not back then. Okay, som hm, when do you when
do you believe? I'm good?I'm good. I'm trying. I'm trying
(34:30):
to What I'm trying to find outhere is Satanism. How does that affect
this is a good question. Howdoes it affect you today? Do you
do you get pigeonholed into being aSatanist? Do you find yourself being uh
harassed over it? Or it's notas common now. It's not as common
(34:58):
now as it was in the earlynineties. In the early nineties, if
I had a pentacle and I waswearing it outside my shirt, it was
not anything unusual to have sorry sorryfor the stereotype here, but to have
some old church lady walk up tome, look at that symbol on my
chest and look at me and go, yea a Satanist. Jared Devil worship
(35:21):
TVs and movies have done a greatdeal to advance that. I'm sure you
remember the Satanic panic of the eighties, and that seems to be going,
that seems to be going undergoing somewhatof a revival right now for some reason.
And my own personal opinion is there'sa lot of people in the organized
(35:43):
religion that are getting a little bitworried about WICCA. Wicka has been the
fastest growing religion in the United Statesfor quite a few years now, and
the church, all of the churchesare losing members and wick is growing.
And I'm sure somewhere way up inthe higher archy there that concerns some people.
Why do you think that is thatthat itself is growing? Why do
(36:09):
you yeah? Why is that so? I remember as a kid back in
the sixties. Yeah, I'm oldthe promise of science. Do you remember
the cartoons back in the sixties.You and I are about the same age
where I remember the Jetsons when theyhad flying cars and robots did all the
(36:31):
work. Okay, So science wassupposed to be the answer, and science
took a lot of people away fromreligion. Religion wasn't the answer anymore,
the church wasn't the answer anymore.It was science. And I think a
lot of people think that science failedthem. Science hasn't proven, hasn't found
(36:53):
all the answers to life, theuniverse and everything if you get that reference.
So people started looking again and they'relike, Okay, so the church
didn't have my answers and science doesn'thave my answers? Where do I get
my answers? And I think that'sa very genuine appeal that Wicka has.
(37:15):
It's your personal journey to finding yourconnection with the divine. So you think
it's more instead of wanting to bepart of an organization, it's maybe some
people's desire to personally search. Theydon't need a group, They just need
to Okay, Because once you weredescribing you were starting to go down the
(37:37):
cult road there of you know,the culture were out there. People are
just looking for a place to belong. But I understand what you're saying now.
One of the things that you see, you're seeing more of today.
And I've actually seen it more onfolks that are Satanist in a sense because
they tend to be and I'm goingto get myself in trouble here, but
(38:00):
a little more flashy about how theyfeel. I don't know if that's a
good way to put it, butthere's a lot of uh uh. I
forget what city it was in,but they put up a Satanic uh uh
symbolism, not a play, buta Satanic Yeah. Yeah, during over
the Christmas holidays, and it justticked off an entire town up north somewhere.
(38:22):
I think that could have been.It was somewhere up north, but
the town got all up in arms, and and you know, I'm of
the Christian belief so but I stillbelieve that this is America and you have
the right to practice anything you want. But what was your take? So
(38:43):
let's let's chat about that a littlebit. What is and what is not
Satanism? The stereotype is the personthat takes across and paints it black and
turns it upside down and sacrifices babiesand drinks blood. And I don't think
(39:05):
that exists. I have maybe somerandom mentally disturbed persons somewhere might do that,
but as an organization, as anorganization, that it doesn't exist.
It's not sustainable. You cannot havea group of people stealing babies and sacrificing
(39:27):
them without law enforcement catching up withthem. Now, what does exist?
What does exist? Uh? Leveyand Satanists who basically, I met Anton
LaVey a long long time ago whenhe was still alive. You know what,
(39:47):
you know what, I'm going toput you on a hold because we're
believing that we're coming up on ournext break here. I want to I
want to hold the thought and Iwant to talk about your meeting with Anton
Leavey, and we'll talk all abouta little bit about it who he was,
because he's definitely an interesting person whenit comes to studies that they cult.
So folks, stay with us.You're gonna want to hear this,
So come right on back. Afterthese messages, we're back with round four.
(40:12):
My guests and I cat we're notready to go into a very deep
area, and I know we're gonnarun out of time, but I do
want to make some comments up front. First, check us out again at
Indian Riverhauntings dot com. You canget a hold of me at ghost Guy
at Paranormal steakout dot org. Alsocheck out all my other shows at Paranormal
steakout dot org. It'll get youback to all my past shows. Check
(40:37):
us out on YouTube at Indian RiverHauntings two three four one, and most
importantly, folks, check out thatterrific broadcast schedule on the excellent radio and
television broadcast network ZBN dot net willget you there and it'll take you to
some terrific shows. Ken you're workingon some stuff now, so folks can
(40:57):
reach out to you in the future. But to come, how could is
there any way folks can get aholdof you now? Hie? Directly?
No, not really. Question.If you have questions for cant, get
with me and I will get themto him. So with that, I
(41:22):
want to Yeah, let's let's backto this Anton Leavey. Now, folks,
for those of you that don't knowwho Anton Leavey is, I used
to what I would discuss him.I would talk about him as the father
of modern Satanism. He was basicallya lion tamer Carnival Huckster. He was
a piano player. He uh andhe got he started studying a lot of
(41:45):
Crawley stuff, and he started theChurch of Satan in California in the seventies,
actually the late sixties. A lotof stars got involved in it.
It was new, it was exciting, and he really made it a business.
And then there was another gentleman thatcame. He was an army guy
that broke off from him, andhis name just went right out of my
head. But he also purveyed thisnew version of Satanism. So go ahead,
(42:13):
tell us about how you ran intoAnton this. I want to hear
this. I wish it was alot more thrilling than it really was.
There was a club in Los Angelescalled the Magic Castle, and it was
a place for stage magicians to basicallypresent new tricks to other professional magicians and
(42:35):
say, okay, how does thisillusion work? You know, do you
guys like this presentation of that presentation? And I was very lucky. I
had a friend invite me to there, and on the evening that we were
there, Anton Lavay was there.Now, one of the things that I
have heard about Anton LaVey was thathe was you called him a Charlatanan stage
(42:57):
show, that he was a stagemagician, and he purposely cultivated this this
creepy thing was part of his act. So I met him. I met
him very much in Poissant. Basically, he walked by and I went,
oh, well, mister Leve andhe looked at me and I'm like,
(43:17):
are you performing tonight? And heand he basically said, no, piss
off, peasant but he was nota pleasant man. But with my experience,
he was not a pleasant man.He was, however, very charismatic.
He did have a presence to himabsolutely, but his Church of Satan,
(43:46):
I think is mutated far beyond whathe ever envisioned. I think my
personal take on that was he startedthat whole thing to dodge axes. He
supposedly inherited a good chunk of moneyfrom relatives and he didn't want to give
(44:08):
it to the government. So he'slike, hey, I'm a church now,
yeah, and I'll take it onestep further. I think he was
a bit of a marketer too.He saw something new that people were going
to get really interested. Many ofthe Hollywood elite were connected with him back
in the day, Jane Mansfield beingone of them. There's several folks.
(44:28):
I won't even go into all thenames. But he was charismatic, no
doubt, and really pervaded this thisbit of Sadanism. Now here's where the
problem came in. Then kids wouldstart reading it, he wrote, he
wrote the Satanic Bible, and kidswould read that and they would start to
practice it. And that's where westarted having problems, especially in the late
(44:52):
eighties. Early nineties where became popularagain. Kids read this stuff and they
did stupid things. And that's wherea lot and that they would they would
leave those kind of trappings behind whenthey did stupid things like hurting animals or
hurting people. So it was itwas a heck of a mess for there
for a while then. And Iblame a lot of his teachings on that.
(45:12):
That's just my opinion. And andthere was a confluence of events there
also. You had the the riseof the latch key kids and the two
income the two income family, andthe lack of supervision of the gen X
kids. And I think that lackof parental supervision led to a lot of
(45:37):
very bad things. I know theydid with a lot of my friends.
Well, and that's that's yeah.And that's what happens. When people are
looking for a void to be filled, they will fill it with something that
allows them permission to do what theywant to do. Uh. And I
(45:57):
think that's where a lot of thatwent. And I saw that as a
cop investigating this because a lot ofmy work was crimes against children, so
I dealt with a lot of thatouch. But it wasn't but it wasn't
the fact that we had Satanic cultshidden under rocks everywhere. It really was
people that maybe had a screw looseor maybe got started reading too much into
(46:20):
it, and it was individuals,individual people committing these acts, but they
did it the under the guise ofSatanism. And that's where Wickan really began
to get connected to Satanism, atleast in the modern sense. It's they
started reading the history and they well, Wickeds must be saying this, which
is an absolutely ridiculous concept, becausehow if you do not acknowledge the Christian
(46:47):
God, how are you going toacknowledge his opposition? That's just not logical.
Yeah, very true, and that'sa well, it's a whole different
subject. But I want to getinto something else. I'm going to switch
gears a little bit here now becauseI want to get into more of the
realm that I deal with regularly.And that's the other side. What happens
after we die? Ghosts do folksthat practice wicked beliefs? What is their
(47:15):
thought on what's on the other side, what happens after we're done? So
again, you're talking about a diversereligion in different segments of that religion,
but In general, I think ifyou ask a wicked what happens to you
when you die, they're going toeither say, well, I go to
(47:37):
however they name their paradise the ElisionFields, they become one with the great
Spirit whatever. Very few Wickans aregoing to tell you that they do not
believe in some kind of kind ofan afterlife. However they may envision that
that they do or do not envisionan afterlife. They absolutely they're going in
(48:00):
some place. It's going to bea good place, because, hey,
if they're they're good people, theydo good deeds. Wicks Wickens. You're
going to find a lot of themin the medical find nurses and nurse practitioners.
You're going to find firefighters. Wickansdo their best to help people.
(48:21):
So when you find people helping people, you're going to find Wickens. They
may not tell you that's what theyare, but they're there. No.
Now, do you do you findas as far as uh, the belief
system, do they believe in ghosts? I guess is what I want to
(48:43):
ask, do you do you see? I would say that the vast majority
of Wickans believe in spirits, certainlynature spirits which are not human, Uh,
the spirits, spirits of the earth, that kind of thing. Yeah,
(49:05):
yeah, yeah, but human spirits. Yeah, there's there's a lot
of Wickans that practice medianship. I'vemet a couple. There's a couple very
There's one very well known guy inyour area in Vero Beach that I believe
used to be an attorney. Idon't remember his name at the moment,
but he's very well known in Vero. Do you know who I'm talking about?
(49:29):
No, I don't, but ifyou gave me, if you knew
the name, I'm sure I would. I'll see if I can come up
with that and get back to youon that one, because I'm sure he
would be an interesting person for youto talk to. He is a professional
median. I don't know what hisreligion is, however, So yeah,
if you talk to a Wickan about, you know, ancestors guidance from spirits,
(49:51):
a lot of them are going tosay, yeah, you know,
I talked to my deceased grandmother quiteoften. She leaves me little signs that
she was there. You know,I come upon her favorite song. Anytime
I turn on the radio, Isee butterflies and I know that they're around.
So absolutely the other world is definitelya part of wickhap And that's what
(50:15):
I was going to ask next.You read, and you still continue to
read tarot cards. Correct, correct, Who's who is providing that answer for
you through the cards in your opinionintuition? Well, okay, so it's
is it your own mind that's doingit or is it somebody or something On
the other side, I would say, it's my own talent. And I'm
(50:38):
going to go back to your formerprofession. I'm sure you ran into some
investigators that were really, really goodat their job, a notch above everybody
else, and once in a whilethey would make some kind of leap on
that evidence and you would say,you know, why do you think X?
And they and their reply would be, that's what my gut is telling
(51:00):
me. You had to have runinto that at some point in your career.
Oh, we all do. AndI agree with that. But there's
many that would believe that that's theother side giving you a little nudge.
But what you're saying is it's ourown inateability, what's already in us.
Is that what I'm for me personally, Yes, for me personally, Okay,
(51:23):
it's my intuition, it's my talent. I can't throw a one hundred
mile an hour baseball, I can'trun a four point one forty yard dash,
but I have very good intuition.It's a talent. Well, where
does that intuition come from? Isit your brain? Your brain is circuited
(51:44):
a certain way. I'm saying itkind of haphazardly, but you get where
I'm coming from. Is it organicversus spiritual? Okay, that's interesting.
I've not heard a put like thatbefore. That. That's very interesting.
Do you have a philosophy yourself onwhat's on the other side? Is it
a collective? I don't have ananswer to that. I don't claim to
(52:09):
have an answer to that. Okay. Have you, in your work,
in your belief system working with tarotcards, have you ever had a paranormal
experience yourself, something that you wouldbe considered that it was reaching out from
the other side. Yeah, Iwas wondering if you're want to ask me
(52:30):
that. So about a decade ago, I was reading cards and a lady
came in that was from the AppalachianMountains. I believe she was from the
Western Carolinas, and I did mystandard reading for her and she was happy
with it, and I was Myarea where I was reading was an old
(52:51):
desk, and she was a largewoman. She was over six feet tall.
And when I was finished, Iasked, is there anything else that
you need to know that I didn'tcover, and she reached across the desk
and grabbed my hands and said,I need to know if my mama is
okay. And I had this shivergo through me like somebody and dunked me
(53:14):
in ice water. My posture change, my voice changed, and I said
something to her along the lines ofI'm watching over you. You take good
care of the babies. And Ijerked my wrists away from her. But
(53:37):
for that brief two or three seconds, I was not me Well, that's
definitely paranormal nature. And I'd liketo continue this, but unfortunate our time
has run out. But that's agreat that's a great place to end it.
So I want to thank you somuch for spending some time with us
(53:58):
tonight explaining some of those things andyour personal experiences. So thank you for
being on the show, and thankall of you out there for watching tonight.
Please, as these times get alittle bit rough out there, always
take care of your family, Takecare of you, Give those kids a
hug, give that spouse of yoursa big hug, and take care of
(54:19):
yourselves. Hope to see you nexttime. Folks. Take good care of
yourselves and we'll see you on theother side. Have a good night, folks,
Welcome to the Paranormal Stakeout Radio TVshow with Larry Lawson. As a former
career law enforcement officer and law enforcementeducator, Larry focuses on the use of
tried and true law enforcement investigated techniquesin conducting paranormal investigations. Despite his experience
and training, Larry also and keepsan open mind to discussions on topics that
(00:33):
deal with evidence that are not quiteas physical in nature. Paranormal Stakeout guests
are professionals in the field of theparanormal and parapsychology, conducting the investigations and
research needed to further the cause ofparanormal study. Larry advocates an agenda of
standardization of structure and training in thefield of paranormal investigation and research for the
(00:56):
purpose of one day being able toproduce the evidence needed to convince a jury
of the existence of the paranormal.Whether it is ghosts, UFOs, unsolved
mysteries, hauntings, or cryptids,no topic is beyond the investigative reach of
Larry Lawson and the Paranormal Steakhout RadioTV show team. Now Here is the
host of the Paranormal Steakout Radio TVshow Larry Lawson, and good evening everyone,
(01:37):
Welcome back to Paranormal Steakout. I'myour host, Larry Lawson, coming
to you from beautiful Vero Beach,Florida, where it's a bomby sixty five
degrees I think right now, whichirritates our friends at the exone headquarters up
in Canada, but it's a nice, nice time to be in Florida during
the winter. I want to thankeverybody for being here tonight, and if
you want to learn a little bitmore about what we do down here at
(02:00):
Florida, at the headquarters of theFlorida Bureau of Paranormal Investigation and Indian River
Hauntings, check us out at ourwebsites at paranormalfbi dot com or Indianriver Hauntings
dot com. You can also checkus out on our YouTube channel, which
is at Indian River Hauntings two threefour one, and you can get a
(02:21):
hold of me also at ghost Guyfifty nine at gmail dot com. Now,
as far as the show here is, you can check out all the
other programs we've had on Paranormal Steakout. Go to Paranormal Steakout dot org and
if you'd like to send me amessage, let me know what you think
of the show. Maybe you've gotsome questions, some things that you'd like
to see discussed. Go ahead andwrite me at ghost Guy at Paranormal steakout
(02:43):
dot org. Also would like youto check out the x on Radio and
TV Proadcast Network for all the greatprogramming there. Now, as most of
you knowing is the name of theshow kind of gives it away. I
spent forty years in law enforcement,and during that time I spent a lot
of time investigating and teaching police officershow to investigate crimes involving as victims or
(03:09):
otherwise. Alternative religions, whether itbe the Southern Africabbean cults, voodoos about
Polomombe Centaia, whether it be involvedbikers. There are all kinds of different
groups out there. I spent alot of time teaching officers how to recognize
(03:29):
and how to talk to folks thatare in different religious sects and spiritual beliefs.
So tonight I really wanted to bringsomebody on the show that can talk
about some of the things that youmay not really think about in spirituality,
and it's some alternate religions, particularlyWika and their spiritual beliefs, and also
(03:51):
involving what they think about the otherside, what happens with life after death.
So with that, I'd like tointroduce to you my guest tonight as
Cat. He's known as Cat.He's a veteran of our military and he's
been studying the cult since he's beena pagan since nineteen ninety one and began
reading tarot cards at age thirteen.I said, he served our country in
(04:12):
the military, so we thank youfor your service, Kat, and welcome
to the show, my honor sir, thank you for having me. Yeah,
it's an interesting subject because we spenta lot of time in this show
talking about paranormal events, whether itbe ghosts, script as UFOs, but
often that discussion turns towards spirituality andreligion, and sometimes folks don't realize the
(04:34):
differences in religions or beliefs out there. So I really appreciate you being on
the show, and if you cantake a second to share with the audience
a little bit about yourself and whatit is you do. So right now,
I'm retired from business life, Ido read tarot cardens. Starting up
(04:57):
a couple of channels for online stuff. We'll see how that goes this year.
Yeah, like yourself, I waslaw enforcement. I was military police
for two years before I got outthat kind of I think that lends itself
very well to what you do andwhat I do, looking at things very
reasonably and logically and seeing, Okay, is there a different explanation for what's
(05:19):
going on here? I agree,And that's called also having a bit of
an open mind, because we can'tstereotype and pigeonhole things because then we don't
get the answers doing. Now youwhat do you character? Let me back
up a little bit. You beganreading tarot cards at age thirteen? I
(05:41):
did what sent you down that roadof tarot cards? And was that the
beginning of your travel towards paganism?It was, And the way I actually
got started is I had a verystrange lady that lived down the street from
me that looking back, that Iwould say was probably the first wicked and
I ever met, Although she didn'tadvertise that, but she gave me a
(06:03):
pack of terror cards when I wasthirteen for my birthday. So what made
her do that? I didn't askfor it. I don't know if she
saw something in me. If intuitivelyshe saw something that said this is something
that I could do. I don'thave an answer for that. So how
(06:25):
did did you self teacher? Didyou self teach yourself how to do it?
Or yeah? I was Actually Iwas the weird kid in school that
the girls would go to at lunchtimeand say, hey, look at your
cards and tell me if this boylikes me. Okay, okay, Well,
obviously that must have sent you downthe path to your spiritual beliefs.
(06:47):
How did that come about? IfI may ask you? Well, again,
starting at that age, got veryinterested in things that weren't common ghosts
and cryptids and legends. I ampart Cherokee, so I have that part,
and I have part of that ismy genetic background and my interest in
(07:09):
Native American low. But what reallygot me started into paganism was when I
got out of the military and Itried to get back into the church where
I was raised, which was Methodist, and it just didn't click for me,
(07:29):
and I was very lost. Iwas a very lost person spiritually,
and I just could not reconcile thatpart of me that had been a warrior
for many years and was then turnedaround and said, hey, you're supposed
to love everybody. And I couldn'tget any reconciliation in my brain with that
(07:50):
whole thing. So I had movedto LA. I was. I met
some very odd people in LA.I think that's kind of a Los Angeles
stereotype, if you want to beweird. Moved to Los Angeles and I
met a fellow service member a bitolder than me. He was a Vietnam
(08:15):
Vet and he was wicked, andwe started out discussing tarot cards and he
gradually introduced me to various and sundrythings, and I felt at home for
the first time in a very longtime. I felt at home. So
that was the beginning. Paganism andWICCA do somewhat go hand in hand.
(08:43):
Would that be a correct statement.Yeah, So let's do a little mental
diagram here. You have Christianity,and Christianity is an umbrella term, and
that covers Catholic, and then thebasic divide from that would be Protestant,
right correct, And then inside Protestantyou would have Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran,
(09:09):
Baptist, all of those, butthey're all still Christian. So pagan
is an umbrella term for anything that'sreally not Christian, non Abrahamic. Let's
put it that way. So,okay, so the Abrahamic religions are Muslim,
Judaism, and Christian right, thoseare considered the Abrahamic religions. So
(09:31):
anything that falls outside of that wouldtechnically be called pagan, even though there's
some people that I'm sure wouldn't appreciatehaving that applied to them, But that's
the division. So then Wika Wickais a very small section under that term
of pagan. So you could compareWickans to being saying Baptist that it's just
(10:00):
yeah, it does. What you'resaying is just a branch of the of
the Paganistic belief system, just likea Catholic and a Methodist or are both
Christian. I totally understand that.What is the history of the Wicca religion
specifically? Okay, so I'm goingto make some people mad here, Well,
(10:20):
that's what we're all about. Wickais comparatively a very young religion.
And the reason that statement is goingto make a lot of people mad is
there's a lot of people in Wiccathat won't say, well, you know,
my part of Wicka goes back,you know a thousand years. No
(10:41):
it doesn't. Wicka was started inthe nineteen thirties by Gerald Gardner, and
that's one of the divisions in WICCAis Gardenerianism and then other people as they
were introduced to that. Just likeany kind of living religious, any kind
(11:07):
of living religion, uh, Christianityhas branched off many times, Wicka is
branched off. You have Gardenerians,you have Alexandrians, you have Dianics,
you have Eclectics. So it keepssplitting as it progresses, and it evolves.
(11:28):
What's the major difference between the differentsects or it's really its little things.
And again I'm going to compare compareit to Christianity. You know,
if you claim to be Christian,then your one belief that unifies all of
that is you have to accept JesusChrist as your Lord and Savior. Would
(11:50):
you say that's a true statement?Okay, yes, So to be to
be to call yourself a Wiccan,you would have to say, I believe
in the we can read, whichat its most basic statement says harm none
and that includes yourself. So thenyou have all kinds of different little divides
(12:11):
and divisions inside that. Gardenerians tendto be very very much into hierarchy.
If you ever meet somebody that says, well, I'm an ordained priestess of
the ninth degree, they're probably Gardenerian. If they start talking about degrees and
initiats and all that, they're probablyGardenerian. They're very, very very hyper
(12:31):
organized. An eclectic. On theother hand, if you have an eclectic
coven, which there used to beone in Urea Beach, I don't know
if it still exists or not.There's one down in Port Saint Lucy if
you're familiar with Port Saint Lucy,called Circle of the Moonlit Sea, and
they are eclectic. So what doeseclectic mean? That means I've got this
(12:52):
little bit here that resonates with me, and I've got this little bit here
and that resonates with me, andI'm going to put it all together in
a blender and I'm going to findthings that feel right in here in my
heart, in my head, thisfeels right. That's eclectic. You have
(13:13):
regional beliefs like witta w I Tt A that's Scottish. Ah. You
could have Italian based on Italian beliefs, that's called Strega. You you have
Norse, you have Norse Pagans.So either how you perceive things or where
(13:41):
it originates, that's your basic divisionsinside Wicca. Would be fair to say
that Wicca doesn't really have standardized likeBaptists and Lutheran sex, that that people
just can be wickaned because of ageneral belief system. Is that? Would
that be an accurate statement? Absolutely, that'd be I'm gonna be a non
(14:03):
denominational Christian because I believe in Jesus. You can certainly be a non denomination
of wicked and say I believe inharm none. Okay, Well with that,
we've come up on our first breakalready, So folks, I'm with
Kat tonight. We're talking about alternatereligions, Paganism and Wicca and how they
connect maybe with the other side.So stay with us. We'll be back
(14:24):
right after these messages and we areback with my guest tonight, Kat talking
about Paganism, Wicca and other alternativereligions. Do wickens. Let me let
me rephrase this a little bit better. Paganism is more of a nature once
again, correct me if if ifI got this wrong, was but more
as a nature based religion, wouldthat be an accurate statement. Yeah.
(14:50):
In general, okay, do Wickensbelieve in God? I'm I'm of the
Baptist faith. Uh, you know, so I have my vision of what
God is. Do Wickens have thesame? Not a all powerful, all
seeing, all knowing being? No, okay, what is your God or
(15:11):
what do you perceive as a higherbeing? So that's again, that's going
to go back to the different divisionsinside Wika. However, in general,
without making too many people mad atme, they're going to say, I
believe in a duality a God anda goddess, and that God and that
Goddess can come in the form ofall different kinds of things. Native American
(15:37):
with my background, you have MotherEarth and Father Sky. Oh let's see
here. If you were, say, in to the Greek pantheon, which
most people know Greco and Roman godsfairly, well, then you might choose
Zeus and Helen for your God andyour goddess. Wick is very much into
(16:00):
dualities. Nothing is just playing good, just playing bad. Nothing's black and
white. There's always something mixed in. Okay. Now, well, will
you say that a lot of Wickenscan be non denominational? If you will,
(16:21):
do you have a generalized scripture thatyou that you abide by. There's
no scripture. It's like I said, it's a living it's a dynamic religion.
It's it's always changing, it's alwaysgrowing. However, if you choose
to call yourself wickan, then youhave to abide by the read, which
is harm none and it's most generalinterpretation. If you belong to a circle,
(16:48):
which is a gathering of wickens,then you probably have a read,
which is just a list of rulesthe circle I belong to a long time.
Go have what we call words tothe wise. But in general,
you're not allowed to harm yourself.You're not allowed to do something that brings
harm to others. And other thanthat, you're free to explore yourself and
(17:14):
your relationship with the divine. Andat its very core, that is wika
is you have a personal relationship withthe divine. There's no building, there's
no man to interpret the words.There's no one to stand in front of
you and tell you this is whatthe divine said. It's strictly between you
(17:38):
and how you perceive the divine.And when you say the divine, you
are referring to the God and theGoddess, the universe. Okay, do
you have it? Is there aonce again, understanding that there is a
lot of free play is a badway to put up. But you's got
(18:00):
a lot of freedom, I guessis a better way to say? Do
you have a Bible a text thatyou generally follow? There's not going to
be a single answer to that,And I'll go back to my comparisons with
Christianity. A Greek Orthodox Catholic wouldnot follow a King James version of the
(18:22):
Bible. Correct, Okay, absolutely, all right. So let's say you
are a Gardenerian again, you're veryfocused on your circles, set of rules
at its hierarchy, and have youlearned enough to advance into the next level
of hierarchy. If you're eclectic,you're out there wandering in the woods,
(18:47):
you're out on the beach, you'relistening to Mama Ocean. You're sitting under
the sky at night looking up atthe moon, and you're going, hey,
I'm here, talk to me.Very very different. A lot of
people look when they hear the termpagan, which we now know is what
the Wickan belief is. Under theumbrellas we talked about before. Most people
(19:11):
look at the Celts from Ireland inEngland and Scotland as being the basis of
this. But that's not necessarily true, is it. No, it's not.
And there is a broad acceptance ofwhat we call the wheel of the
year, which is the turning ofthe seasons. That is a general accepted
(19:33):
concept in WICCA. But if youtalk to someone who is into Straga,
which is the Italian branch, andyou get them talking with a Norse pagan
and a Scottish which is widow,there's a few very basic things that those
three are going to agree on,but the differences are going to be huge.
(19:56):
Yeah. Well, now we've gotkind of a he's the understanding of
what the belief system is. Nowlet's get down to the nitty gritty on
something. Are you a witch?Yes? I am? And do you
have a pointy hat? I gottaknow? Do you have a pointy hats
are not necessary? Oh? Okay, I just wanted not part of the
(20:18):
uniform. I gotcha. Okay,So are you a witch? You are
a witch? Yes? Okay.Now you look at how the public,
how it's been memorialized in film,TV books, Witches are of magical descent.
Magic is a big part of it, but which is also if you
(20:41):
go back into history, Oh,if you go back in the time of
the Satan witches and it was believedthat witch has got their power through Satan,
and we'll talk about that it's specificallyin a little bit. But are
witches involved in magic? And isthe magic evil? So are witches involved
(21:03):
in magic? Yes? They are? Are wickeds involved in magic? Some
of them are, some of themare not. The whole thing about magic
is it's optional. A lot ofpeople that are wicked are just going to
hold the earth is sacred. They'regoing to follow the turning of the seasons.
(21:26):
They're gonna do whatever they can doto help people. I'll again,
harm none and you might do.You have a friend that's sick, and
you may light a candle for them. Gee, that sounds familiar, doesn't
it lighting a candle for somebody.You may burn some incense for them,
Again, that sounds familiar too,in order to help that person get better.
(21:49):
Absolutely, I mean, look lookat the things we use in Christianity
that have similarities to Christmas tree,the Easter, buddy. I mean,
we can definitely, and there's noquestion there was some reasons why there's connections
because the Christian Church wanted to bringfolks over for the pagan so they adopted
(22:11):
a lot of the traditions. Yeah. Absolutely, much easier to get somebody
on board if you don't ostracize everythingthat they want to do. So what
is the money difference between white andblack? Man? Wow, that's okay
(22:32):
again, I'm going to make somepeople mad again, that's what we're here
for. Yeah, So my opinion, the only true white magic that you
can do is that which you doupon yourself to advance your spirituality and your
understanding with the connection to the divine. Anything after that shades into gray,
(22:56):
and anything that you do to harmsomebody aids into black. So I'm going
to restate what I said earlier.If you are going to call yourself wickan,
you have to abide by harm none. That means no black magic.
Interesting. Interesting? Do you actuallyhave some folks that believe that on the
(23:22):
side delves into the black magic?What happened? That's a big no note?
Okay, what if what if awicked does do that? Is there
any type Well, they can't beexcommunicated. No, that's kind of where
I'm going with. Yeah, there'sno real excommunication. If you are involved
(23:48):
in a circle and you have peoplein charge of that, your high priest
and your high priestess, and theyfound out that you did something bad,
they will kick you out. Absolutely. But a lot of wickas are what
they call solitary. They don't belongto a group. They are very content
(24:08):
to explore themselves and their connection andtheir connection to the divine. That's what
they do. Uh okay, Sowe have a little bit of an echo
right now. You wouldn't have tohave a headset, would you? I
(24:29):
do need? Do we need totake a break and let me find it?
Well, let's we're almost ready totake our next break. But at
the break out you can grab aheadset. I'm getting into real bad,
so I appreciate that. So there'sno way to excommunicate or stops. How
do you release yourself? Well,I don't believe that I need a set
(24:55):
of laws. You and I areboth were both former laws enforcement. I
do not need a set of laws. I do not need a religion to
tell me, hey, don't killthat person over there. I don't need
a religion to tell me don't forcemyself on someone who has no interest in
(25:18):
me. That's my morals, that'smy upgrade bringing, that's you know,
my soul, whatever you want tocall it. I don't need that.
That makes sense what it does.But how do you keep somebody who claims
to be wicked when they've crossed theline, how do you? I mean,
(25:41):
there's no way to stop them fromdoing it. Is that kind of
what I'm hearing? Yeah, Imean, I'm sure there's Christians that do
Unchristian things and claim to be Christian. So yeah, you can claim to
be wicked, and you know,you can go out and throw a rock
at your neighbor's dog, or youcan be a bad person. That doesn't
(26:06):
mean that you belong to that religionanymore though, And that's between you and
the divine just like I would assumethat if you are I don't know,
if you're a Lutheran and you goout and you commit a sin, there's
no confession there. Nobody's going tokick you out of your church. That's
between you and your God. Beforewe take our break there, if you
(26:27):
had to pick one, if thereis one thing you can pick that is
a similarity between Christianity Paganism, whichis there one be a good person be
a good person. I cannot arguewith that. Well, once we we're
(26:48):
gonna take our break. Then oncewe get back, we're going to talk
about another belief system that you oftenget thrown in with, and that's Satanism,
and we're going to talk about outthat when we get back. So
folks are going to take our breakdown, stay with us. I've got Kat
talking about alternative religions. We'll seeafter the break and we are back on
(27:10):
Paranor will stake out with my guestKat tonight with airphones on. Hopefully that
echo is gone, So I'm happyabout that. That's I sacrifice my hair
for you here. What a guy? What a guy? What if?
The things that has happened over theyears, there's been a and it happens
(27:37):
in all kinds of areas. Peoplelook at they see a topic and they
think everybody's attached to that topic.And I guess what I'm getting at here
is the topic of Satanism. Now. Back in the late eighties early nineties,
and that's when I began to teachofficers how to recognize certain crime scenes
that had oh satanic or other othermarketing of other kind of violent cults.
(28:02):
For lack of a better term.And what I really began to find out
was that Wicca, which is Satanistsall the same. Now history showed,
History talks about witches back in theday. That's they got their power from
satan That's where the black cat camefrom. That was their familiar that watched
over them and made sure they weredoing what they needed to do. So
(28:25):
there's a lot of connection between whatwitches were described as back in the day
and the belief in Satanism. Iswicca a part of Satanism? No,
it's not. And again I'm goingto go back to the wick and read
harm none. You cannot sacrifice agoat, you cannot sacrifice a person,
(28:51):
You cannot harm any being if you'regoing to be a wickan period. Okay,
here's a question for you and thisare you familiar with Alistair Crawley.
I am. Yeah. What thou, what thou will be the whole of
the law was what he liked tosay in his in his version of Satanism
(29:12):
or black magic, evil whatever.And what I came to find out with
a lot of times it was kidsjust acting crazy, but they would take
that and they would just use thatterm whether it be no harm or what
thou would be, what thou wiltbe? The whole of the law type
(29:33):
of statements is whatever they decided thatmeant. Okay, does that make sense
to you? So how does that? How does that fit in with folks
in the Wicked religion? Do they? I mean they you have the read
you talked about that you talked aboutthe you have a general rule that everybody
follows. But does everybody take thatas well harming nobody? Well, that
(29:57):
doesn't mean I think they want meto harm them, So I will almost
like a cradle like, just doesn'twork that way I do. And the
simple answer to that is you cannotfollow Crowley's teachings and be Wickan. Crowley
(30:18):
did a lot of drugs not allowed. Crowley was rumored, Yeah, well
harm none that includes yourself. AndI don't think anybody could argue the fact
that if you ingest drugs or alcoholto a extreme, they harm your body.
(30:41):
Okay, nobody's gonna argue with that, right. So a lot of
people look at Crowley and they say, Okay, he was not Wickan.
It was rumored that he was Satanic. But again we're talking about Victorian England.
At a hugely different mindset than fromwhat we have now. Mm hmm.
(31:06):
So, Uh Crowley probably gets theside eye from modern wickeds. It's
like, yeah, I know thatguy existed, but not going there.
Well, you you talked about thewicked wicked as a and I agree with
you that the term wicked is arelatively modern term when you think about the
(31:27):
history of how far this went back. But back in the day, Uh
Crowley and a lot of people withhim, the Order of the Golden Dawn,
they all consider themselves to be witchesthat practice black magic. How did
that? How did that bifurcate?How did and a lot of another term
(31:48):
I hear a lot as white witches. Now, I don't know how you
feel about that term, but blackand white when when did that kind of
bifurcate or or was it always likethat? We just didn't know it.
So I've done some study on crowleyingon the Golden Dawn, and it's very,
very difficult to separate the rumor inthe inuendu in endo from what they
(32:12):
actually did. But Golden Dawn wouldcall themselves high magicians, high magic,
which is a whole separate deal fromwitchcraft. And wicca because the purpose of
high magic is to bend reality toyour will. And I don't know of
(32:34):
any witches or wickeds that are interestedin that. We work within nature.
That's our thing is nature and hownature works. How do you how do
you think they do you think thatthat division was in place back in Victorian
times? It's just the stuff atCrowley and his ilk people of his it
(33:00):
did just overshadowed and was more visible, was more sensational. Yeah, absolutely,
because you think about Victorian England.If you had a practicing witch in
Victorian England, they are going todo everything they can possibly do to stay
(33:20):
out of notice of the Catholic Church, of any of the what they call
the sheriffs back then, because therewere still anti witchcraft laws back then and
they could and would drag you offto jail. So if you're practicing witchcraft,
you wanted to stay out. Plus, traditionally, people that practice witchcraft
(33:43):
live out out in the middle ofnothing. I live out in the middle
of acres and acres of orange groves. There's no city within five miles of
me. Crowley, all of theGolden Dawn lived in London, and they
made it. They flouted what theydid. They wanted to be recognized.
(34:06):
You're you're witchcraft first year witchcraft practicyear. They might be known to the
local village, but they don't wantto come to the attention of the authorities.
Not back then. Okay, som hm, when do you when
do you believe? I'm good?I'm good. I'm trying. I'm trying
(34:30):
to What I'm trying to find outhere is Satanism. How does that affect
this is a good question. Howdoes it affect you today? Do you
do you get pigeonholed into being aSatanist? Do you find yourself being uh
harassed over it? Or it's notas common now. It's not as common
(34:58):
now as it was in the earlynineties. In the early nineties, if
I had a pentacle and I waswearing it outside my shirt, it was
not anything unusual to have sorry sorryfor the stereotype here, but to have
some old church lady walk up tome, look at that symbol on my
chest and look at me and go, yea a Satanist. Jared Devil worship
(35:21):
TVs and movies have done a greatdeal to advance that. I'm sure you
remember the Satanic panic of the eighties, and that seems to be going,
that seems to be going undergoing somewhatof a revival right now for some reason.
And my own personal opinion is there'sa lot of people in the organized
(35:43):
religion that are getting a little bitworried about WICCA. Wicka has been the
fastest growing religion in the United Statesfor quite a few years now, and
the church, all of the churchesare losing members and wick is growing.
And I'm sure somewhere way up inthe higher archy there that concerns some people.
Why do you think that is thatthat itself is growing? Why do
(36:09):
you yeah? Why is that so? I remember as a kid back in
the sixties. Yeah, I'm oldthe promise of science. Do you remember
the cartoons back in the sixties.You and I are about the same age
where I remember the Jetsons when theyhad flying cars and robots did all the
(36:31):
work. Okay, So science wassupposed to be the answer, and science
took a lot of people away fromreligion. Religion wasn't the answer anymore,
the church wasn't the answer anymore.It was science. And I think a
lot of people think that science failedthem. Science hasn't proven, hasn't found
(36:53):
all the answers to life, theuniverse and everything if you get that reference.
So people started looking again and they'relike, Okay, so the church
didn't have my answers and science doesn'thave my answers? Where do I get
my answers? And I think that'sa very genuine appeal that Wicka has.
(37:15):
It's your personal journey to finding yourconnection with the divine. So you think
it's more instead of wanting to bepart of an organization, it's maybe some
people's desire to personally search. Theydon't need a group, They just need
to Okay, Because once you weredescribing you were starting to go down the
(37:37):
cult road there of you know,the culture were out there. People are
just looking for a place to belong. But I understand what you're saying now.
One of the things that you see, you're seeing more of today.
And I've actually seen it more onfolks that are Satanist in a sense because
they tend to be and I'm goingto get myself in trouble here, but
(38:00):
a little more flashy about how theyfeel. I don't know if that's a
good way to put it, butthere's a lot of uh uh. I
forget what city it was in,but they put up a Satanic uh uh
symbolism, not a play, buta Satanic Yeah. Yeah, during over
the Christmas holidays, and it justticked off an entire town up north somewhere.
(38:22):
I think that could have been.It was somewhere up north, but
the town got all up in arms, and and you know, I'm of
the Christian belief so but I stillbelieve that this is America and you have
the right to practice anything you want. But what was your take? So
(38:43):
let's let's chat about that a littlebit. What is and what is not
Satanism? The stereotype is the personthat takes across and paints it black and
turns it upside down and sacrifices babiesand drinks blood. And I don't think
(39:05):
that exists. I have maybe somerandom mentally disturbed persons somewhere might do that,
but as an organization, as anorganization, that it doesn't exist.
It's not sustainable. You cannot havea group of people stealing babies and sacrificing
(39:27):
them without law enforcement catching up withthem. Now, what does exist?
What does exist? Uh? Leveyand Satanists who basically, I met Anton
LaVey a long long time ago whenhe was still alive. You know what,
(39:47):
you know what, I'm going toput you on a hold because we're
believing that we're coming up on ournext break here. I want to I
want to hold the thought and Iwant to talk about your meeting with Anton
Leavey, and we'll talk all abouta little bit about it who he was,
because he's definitely an interesting person whenit comes to studies that they cult.
So folks, stay with us.You're gonna want to hear this,
So come right on back. Afterthese messages, we're back with round four.
(40:12):
My guests and I cat we're notready to go into a very deep
area, and I know we're gonnarun out of time, but I do
want to make some comments up front. First, check us out again at
Indian Riverhauntings dot com. You canget a hold of me at ghost Guy
at Paranormal steakout dot org. Alsocheck out all my other shows at Paranormal
steakout dot org. It'll get youback to all my past shows. Check
(40:37):
us out on YouTube at Indian RiverHauntings two three four one, and most
importantly, folks, check out thatterrific broadcast schedule on the excellent radio and
television broadcast network ZBN dot net willget you there and it'll take you to
some terrific shows. Ken you're workingon some stuff now, so folks can
(40:57):
reach out to you in the future. But to come, how could is
there any way folks can get aholdof you now? Hie? Directly?
No, not really. Question.If you have questions for cant, get
with me and I will get themto him. So with that, I
(41:22):
want to Yeah, let's let's backto this Anton Leavey. Now, folks,
for those of you that don't knowwho Anton Leavey is, I used
to what I would discuss him.I would talk about him as the father
of modern Satanism. He was basicallya lion tamer Carnival Huckster. He was
a piano player. He uh andhe got he started studying a lot of
(41:45):
Crawley stuff, and he started theChurch of Satan in California in the seventies,
actually the late sixties. A lotof stars got involved in it.
It was new, it was exciting, and he really made it a business.
And then there was another gentleman thatcame. He was an army guy
that broke off from him, andhis name just went right out of my
head. But he also purveyed thisnew version of Satanism. So go ahead,
(42:13):
tell us about how you ran intoAnton this. I want to hear
this. I wish it was alot more thrilling than it really was.
There was a club in Los Angelescalled the Magic Castle, and it was
a place for stage magicians to basicallypresent new tricks to other professional magicians and
(42:35):
say, okay, how does thisillusion work? You know, do you
guys like this presentation of that presentation? And I was very lucky. I
had a friend invite me to there, and on the evening that we were
there, Anton Lavay was there.Now, one of the things that I
have heard about Anton LaVey was thathe was you called him a Charlatanan stage
(42:57):
show, that he was a stagemagician, and he purposely cultivated this this
creepy thing was part of his act. So I met him. I met
him very much in Poissant. Basically, he walked by and I went,
oh, well, mister Leve andhe looked at me and I'm like,
(43:17):
are you performing tonight? And heand he basically said, no, piss
off, peasant but he was nota pleasant man. But with my experience,
he was not a pleasant man.He was, however, very charismatic.
He did have a presence to himabsolutely, but his Church of Satan,
(43:46):
I think is mutated far beyond whathe ever envisioned. I think my
personal take on that was he startedthat whole thing to dodge axes. He
supposedly inherited a good chunk of moneyfrom relatives and he didn't want to give
(44:08):
it to the government. So he'slike, hey, I'm a church now,
yeah, and I'll take it onestep further. I think he was
a bit of a marketer too.He saw something new that people were going
to get really interested. Many ofthe Hollywood elite were connected with him back
in the day, Jane Mansfield beingone of them. There's several folks.
(44:28):
I won't even go into all thenames. But he was charismatic, no
doubt, and really pervaded this thisbit of Sadanism. Now here's where the
problem came in. Then kids wouldstart reading it, he wrote, he
wrote the Satanic Bible, and kidswould read that and they would start to
practice it. And that's where westarted having problems, especially in the late
(44:52):
eighties. Early nineties where became popularagain. Kids read this stuff and they
did stupid things. And that's wherea lot and that they would they would
leave those kind of trappings behind whenthey did stupid things like hurting animals or
hurting people. So it was itwas a heck of a mess for there
for a while then. And Iblame a lot of his teachings on that.
(45:12):
That's just my opinion. And andthere was a confluence of events there
also. You had the the riseof the latch key kids and the two
income the two income family, andthe lack of supervision of the gen X
kids. And I think that lackof parental supervision led to a lot of
(45:37):
very bad things. I know theydid with a lot of my friends.
Well, and that's that's yeah.And that's what happens. When people are
looking for a void to be filled, they will fill it with something that
allows them permission to do what theywant to do. Uh. And I
(45:57):
think that's where a lot of thatwent. And I saw that as a
cop investigating this because a lot ofmy work was crimes against children, so
I dealt with a lot of thatouch. But it wasn't but it wasn't
the fact that we had Satanic cultshidden under rocks everywhere. It really was
people that maybe had a screw looseor maybe got started reading too much into
(46:20):
it, and it was individuals,individual people committing these acts, but they
did it the under the guise ofSatanism. And that's where Wickan really began
to get connected to Satanism, atleast in the modern sense. It's they
started reading the history and they well, Wickeds must be saying this, which
is an absolutely ridiculous concept, becausehow if you do not acknowledge the Christian
(46:47):
God, how are you going toacknowledge his opposition? That's just not logical.
Yeah, very true, and that'sa well, it's a whole different
subject. But I want to getinto something else. I'm going to switch
gears a little bit here now becauseI want to get into more of the
realm that I deal with regularly.And that's the other side. What happens
after we die? Ghosts do folksthat practice wicked beliefs? What is their
(47:15):
thought on what's on the other side, what happens after we're done? So
again, you're talking about a diversereligion in different segments of that religion,
but In general, I think ifyou ask a wicked what happens to you
when you die, they're going toeither say, well, I go to
(47:37):
however they name their paradise the ElisionFields, they become one with the great
Spirit whatever. Very few Wickans aregoing to tell you that they do not
believe in some kind of kind ofan afterlife. However they may envision that
that they do or do not envisionan afterlife. They absolutely they're going in
(48:00):
some place. It's going to bea good place, because, hey,
if they're they're good people, theydo good deeds. Wicks Wickens. You're
going to find a lot of themin the medical find nurses and nurse practitioners.
You're going to find firefighters. Wickansdo their best to help people.
(48:21):
So when you find people helping people, you're going to find Wickens. They
may not tell you that's what theyare, but they're there. No.
Now, do you do you findas as far as uh, the belief
system, do they believe in ghosts? I guess is what I want to
(48:43):
ask, do you do you see? I would say that the vast majority
of Wickans believe in spirits, certainlynature spirits which are not human, Uh,
the spirits, spirits of the earth, that kind of thing. Yeah,
(49:05):
yeah, yeah, but human spirits. Yeah, there's there's a lot
of Wickans that practice medianship. I'vemet a couple. There's a couple very
There's one very well known guy inyour area in Vero Beach that I believe
used to be an attorney. Idon't remember his name at the moment,
but he's very well known in Vero. Do you know who I'm talking about?
(49:29):
No, I don't, but ifyou gave me, if you knew
the name, I'm sure I would. I'll see if I can come up
with that and get back to youon that one, because I'm sure he
would be an interesting person for youto talk to. He is a professional
median. I don't know what hisreligion is, however, So yeah,
if you talk to a Wickan about, you know, ancestors guidance from spirits,
(49:51):
a lot of them are going tosay, yeah, you know,
I talked to my deceased grandmother quiteoften. She leaves me little signs that
she was there. You know,I come upon her favorite song. Anytime
I turn on the radio, Isee butterflies and I know that they're around.
So absolutely the other world is definitelya part of wickhap And that's what
(50:15):
I was going to ask next.You read, and you still continue to
read tarot cards. Correct, correct, Who's who is providing that answer for
you through the cards in your opinionintuition? Well, okay, so it's
is it your own mind that's doingit or is it somebody or something On
the other side, I would say, it's my own talent. And I'm
(50:38):
going to go back to your formerprofession. I'm sure you ran into some
investigators that were really, really goodat their job, a notch above everybody
else, and once in a whilethey would make some kind of leap on
that evidence and you would say,you know, why do you think X?
And they and their reply would be, that's what my gut is telling
(51:00):
me. You had to have runinto that at some point in your career.
Oh, we all do. AndI agree with that. But there's
many that would believe that that's theother side giving you a little nudge.
But what you're saying is it's ourown inateability, what's already in us.
Is that what I'm for me personally, Yes, for me personally, Okay,
(51:23):
it's my intuition, it's my talent. I can't throw a one hundred
mile an hour baseball, I can'trun a four point one forty yard dash,
but I have very good intuition.It's a talent. Well, where
does that intuition come from? Isit your brain? Your brain is circuited
(51:44):
a certain way. I'm saying itkind of haphazardly, but you get where
I'm coming from. Is it organicversus spiritual? Okay, that's interesting.
I've not heard a put like thatbefore. That. That's very interesting.
Do you have a philosophy yourself onwhat's on the other side? Is it
a collective? I don't have ananswer to that. I don't claim to
(52:09):
have an answer to that. Okay. Have you, in your work,
in your belief system working with tarotcards, have you ever had a paranormal
experience yourself, something that you wouldbe considered that it was reaching out from
the other side. Yeah, Iwas wondering if you're want to ask me
(52:30):
that. So about a decade ago, I was reading cards and a lady
came in that was from the AppalachianMountains. I believe she was from the
Western Carolinas, and I did mystandard reading for her and she was happy
with it, and I was Myarea where I was reading was an old
(52:51):
desk, and she was a largewoman. She was over six feet tall.
And when I was finished, Iasked, is there anything else that
you need to know that I didn'tcover, and she reached across the desk
and grabbed my hands and said,I need to know if my mama is
okay. And I had this shivergo through me like somebody and dunked me
(53:14):
in ice water. My posture change, my voice changed, and I said
something to her along the lines ofI'm watching over you. You take good
care of the babies. And Ijerked my wrists away from her. But
(53:37):
for that brief two or three seconds, I was not me Well, that's
definitely paranormal nature. And I'd liketo continue this, but unfortunate our time
has run out. But that's agreat that's a great place to end it.
So I want to thank you somuch for spending some time with us
(53:58):
tonight explaining some of those things andyour personal experiences. So thank you for
being on the show, and thankall of you out there for watching tonight.
Please, as these times get alittle bit rough out there, always
take care of your family, Takecare of you, Give those kids a
hug, give that spouse of yoursa big hug, and take care of
(54:19):
yourselves. Hope to see you nexttime. Folks. Take good care of
yourselves and we'll see you on theother side. Have a good night, folks,
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