May 24, 2024 • 60 mins
Con Juan David Rojas conversamos sobre la necesidad de recuperar lo estético en lo cotidiano, en lo simple, en lo menor.
Juan David es músico, docente universitario y actualmente acaba de terminar su doctorado en ciencias de la educación y nos comparte sus reflexiones sobre las dificultades de la educación hegemónica, el papel del cuerpo en esta educación y la importancia de recuperar el sentido de lo estético desde la diferencia.
En este programa conversamos sobre como la educación somática reconoce la diferencia, la singularidad de cada ser humano y la forma como afecta su percepción, la relación con los otros y con el ambiente.
Juan David es músico, docente universitario y actualmente acaba de terminar su doctorado en ciencias de la educación y nos comparte sus reflexiones sobre las dificultades de la educación hegemónica, el papel del cuerpo en esta educación y la importancia de recuperar el sentido de lo estético desde la diferencia.
En este programa conversamos sobre como la educación somática reconoce la diferencia, la singularidad de cada ser humano y la forma como afecta su percepción, la relación con los otros y con el ambiente.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
It initiates a space to know aboutrelationships physically and understand the potential, wisdom
and intelligence of the human body.Connect for an hour with the radio show
of the physiotherapy program of the Universityof Rosario, thinking with the body come
and discover everything that can be done, learned and felt from the consciousness of
(00:25):
living in motion. Welcome, thisis, thinking with the good body,
welcome, welcome to the program thinkingwith the body is pass the physiotherapy program
of the University of Rosario from themicrophones of the institutional station Rosario Radio here
(00:51):
at the Cloister, on a coldday Bogota, I send a warm greeting
to all our cyberyents. For meit is always a matter of gratitude to
be able to carry out a newprogram and to have the presence of each
person who is of their space,their practices in everyday life, their studies.
(01:11):
I' ve had two PhDs herelately. It provides for us to
be better human beings and to havea more just and peaceful society. In
the section, the word to awakenconsciousness will grow the reading and two poems
that are contained in the book TheAesthetics of the Daily or Less towards a
(01:34):
pedagogy of the difference that is,therefore, the author is or my guest
of today. And this, then, these two poems invite us to reflect
and serve as a pleaming theme thatwe will deal with today with Juan David
Rojas, with whom we will discussthe theme the aesthetics of the everyday in
(01:59):
the section, taking care of thebody and movement. So much, we
will conduct a session of self-awareness through the movement to decant in the
body as is the hallmark of thisprogram of what we discuss. Well,
remember it' s here. Theyare listening to us on our website Triple
DOBLEU dot Rosario Radio dot seo,as on broadcast platforms, like Radio dot
(02:22):
Ugarty. Likewise, if you wantto connect with us on social networks,
you find us as Rosario Radio onInstagram, Facebook, YouTube. In addition,
on the website Triple double U dotUrosario Radio dot seo find the programming
of the station. If you arelate for this broadcast or if you miss
(02:45):
some of our programs, remember thatthis and all the Eurosario Radio programs find
them on the platforms is Preaker,Spotify and Apple Podcast. Well, thank
you very much to those who listento our show. Received a lot of
messages. And, for example,Alfonso Rodriguez tells me to come back and
(03:08):
listen to the show with Natalia Nataliaabout somatics and peace, and he says
and I always want to hear itagain. So good for me, that
' s like a reason for alot of joy. He says so,
I listened again to him as asomatic for peace with Natalia Silva and he
has enriched me much the same noteevery time you take it more, more
(03:32):
and more majestic, conscious and tunedwith the proposal you want to make of
the program. My respects and goodhow cute. And on the other hand,
Alejandro Bojaca dialects read what he tellsme. Alejandra Bojaca also writes a
very beautiful text and says the followingmy dear victory. I pass here in
(03:54):
total gratitude for you and for thisbeautiful program thinking with the body. Thank
you for rescuing the flavors that remainengraved in the body through your word and
each of your guests. Thank you, Aleja, to Angela, to Santa
Maria, for reminding us that itis important to connect from the heart and
(04:16):
that ancestral knowledge and life are wovenand resonated sesana no matter borders. A
strong hug from heart to heart.Okay. Thank you, Aleja, thank
you in Alfonso, for each ofthese comments, because good encourage me to
follow, to continue with this,with this proposal of this program. Okay.
(04:39):
I also thank the Sol Duarte,who is always with me with the
Master Control and Mario Caso, directorof the station. I' m Victoria
Molina I' m a physiotherapist I' m a professor of physiotherapy. Teacher
to the Felden Grais method and good. Um welcome, welcome to this program
(05:00):
thinking with the body, a programthat moves your whole being you knew that
recovering habits from healthy movements allow usto live life better thinking with the body
the word to awaken consciousness. Inthis section we carry out a reading that
(05:21):
allows us to introduce the topic thatwe are going to deal with with the
guest. Prepare for moments of reflectionand tranquility. Enjoy these moments. Well,
as I was saying a moment ago, I' m going to read
(05:46):
two as two poems written by twoparticipants in the research that gave rise to
the text. The aesthetics of theeveryday or minor towards a pedagogy of difference.
The first one is of errand andsays so it is called or entitled
to temporals of the limiting wind,a tormented visceral poet of the piano who
(06:15):
finished his chat in darkness of theconfusing technique in which he has finished leftovers
of the ancient knowledge that was invokedfrom the paper, who discovered himself listening
to the different and that from thatrising sun documents our stories breaking all physical
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law, observing what happened, vaguesentence of yesterday wrong premise of tomorrow,
we were looking for a lotus flowerthat sprouted here or beyond the motionless time
of the solitary swamp lugs neglected lossso much foot to this theory will be
(07:08):
frozen in that photograph restlessness that Isee using the same broken jin. I
am now one more spectator of thissilent art thought extracted from a pantomime and
the next. Next versus. Thefollowing verses are written by Karen and is
entitled the youngest sixth. You'd hear how we smashed a piano into
(07:32):
little crumbs. We could still sensehis drowning sound. We differentiate each other.
There are spaces and places without invisiblebarriers. We can find each other
looking in the eye. If todaythe beloved world, the beloved world,
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were to end, what did youlearn during your stay in it? A
reflection on the outside world that wehave inside, projections of our knowledges,
prejudices and systems induced by our cultures, which is not bad, much less
abominable. But with a second.But for a second, listen carefully to
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what' s out there if youask questions and melodies. Yes, questions
and melodies, actions and situations thatare activated at every moment of life,
converging into a number of new knowledges. Molding our way of appreciating the breath
of the new day. And you' ll have it, by telling me
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I' m already reading your letterand we' ll attest to it.
And now what, then, mydear reader, I regret to tell you
that what you seek is not uponmy vague letters. Language alone cannot contain
the world. So, b andsalt learn to sensitize your listening. Open
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one of a thousand possibilities, becausein order to end something, you must
destroy it with faith to want tosee it, to transform, to know
(09:35):
and to discover the human body inmotion generates consciousness, autonomy and recognition of
us the human being as a whole. In this section we share with us
their experience and knowledge people who liveand assume the human being. Community with
the whole understand new practical relationships andapproaches that allow us to advance in a
(10:01):
better understanding of us as human beings. Or, well, as I was
saying to the show prince, Ihave Juan David Rojas today. Quan David,
good morning, how are you?Thank you for being on the Hola
Victoria program. Good morning, thankyou for your invitation. Very happy to
(10:24):
be here in your space. Thankyou, Well, Han David. He
is a music teacher at the PontificalJaveriana University. He is a music teacher
at Texas Christian University. He isa practitioner of the felden Crice method.
Master of the felden Cras method certifiedby the intern, the International Federation of
(10:50):
felden Crice, Member of the ColombianAssociation. The felden Grace method is good
and has a long history of formationand I think I want to emphasize that
it is this PhD in education sciencefrom the University of La Sabana, which
is the doctorate you just finished.Well, Juan David, thank you for
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being here and for coming to shareyour text. Well, first of all,
congratulations. I believe that making abook and because it is not so
easy, it has never been easy, but well, really, congratulations for
that achievement and for having completed,because your doctorate with so much, with
so many, with so much success. Thank you very much, victory.
(11:35):
Yeah, doing something like that isn' t easy, but good. Thank
you, he took it to ahappy conclusion. Well, that' s
good, good and somehow, becausethe text allows many people to know these
reflections and everything that you did forseveral years and that' s very beautiful
not to be able to share whatyou learned. But then, well,
(11:56):
I want us to start from where, because the text is very striking,
the name. No, then Iwant us to start, by the way,
where it comes from like those firstreflections, motivations, maybe as a
professor who you are from Juan EneCorpas University for many years. So,
(12:18):
tell us, how do these firstquestions begin, what do you do about
the education of aesthetics to get to, so, what you present today,
okay, let' s say thatall part of a question of how the
school has been structured as usual andhow really the school, the school,
(12:41):
the educational institution has been more concernedabout is one by one apo, as
well as a manufacture of people whofulfill specific roles in the market and who,
in one way or another, forgetto know and only focus on a
clearly rational knowledge and let' ssay out of that sensitive knowledge of the
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bodies that are there with as youhave said in your program, are or
are complete, are holistic. Yes, then it is precisely a question of
why the school is involved precisely ina fabrication that leads to completely homogenizing curriculus
in which one forgets precisely how bodiesaffect one another, how they learn from
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one another. And coming back tothe tale of aesthetics, it' s
what' s more everyday than thebody. The body is something that we
live daily, but it is reallya territory that becomes ethical, aesthetic,
but at the same time political.Yes, then it is an interesting question
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that all these educational questions have focusedon a clearly rational knowledge, but they
leave the body in its entirety,in its sensitivity, in its thesis,
in its perception outside. Then itis one of the questions that leads me
to rethink a new pedagogy that isbased precisely on those concepts of aesthetics,
(14:16):
cortidianity and difference that later, asI will tell you more or less of
which rat. But for now that' s what makes me clear. Well
and so, obviously understand that education, because it is still based on this
model of understanding the body and themind. We have not yet managed to
move forward to understand ourselves as integralbeings, true, as from an integrality
(14:41):
in which the body and the mindare a unity, not but we are
always still with this duality that follows, since, obviously, so marked in
our education, in our practice,in our formation, from our health,
from any of the most forms wehave. So, well, here it
appears as the concept of education.Let' s just leave it as if
(15:05):
suspended. How the concept now appearsof aesthetics, from where you see it,
therefore, as a musician who isalways framed in aesthetics, also that
it is a homogenized aesthetic. Notthen how this is as parts there is
precisely the being linked to a completelywestern aesthetic, as you say hegemonic,
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of western music, of classical music, which leads me to ask if all
those aesthetics and a manipulation about givingcertain people access to certain sensitive knowledge,
a distribution of the sensitive, soto speak and we leave the aesthetics aside
as really the possibility of feeling ofperception. And that' s what anyone
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has. It does not have fromthe person who is not studied music to
the one who is the best musicianor, if you understand me that is,
we all have the ability to feeland to move within our perceptions and
in our sensitive perception. Then,why entangle aesthetics in something that has to
be completely hegemonic and bring it outprecisely to the everyday and understand that aesthetics
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is a way of living, ofbuilding life, is an aesthetic of existence,
as Fucosi said, It is,as I do, of my life,
a work of art, or Isaid Cito. Yes, then it
is precisely to forget that being amusician and obviously, because I move from
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a tetica. But there are differentaesthetics, different ones that do not imply
that they are good or bad,that they are better or worse, but
that they simply enhance bodies or powersin different ways. So, it is
precisely to get out of that aesthetic, that traditional aesthetic to ask the aesthetics
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of locutuvion is a way of valuingthe difference of going into breaking the limits
of both bodies and actions as societies, etcetera. It' s nice,
because it seems to me that here, like the aesthetics that you obviously talk
about from the music, from thebody, but how aesthetics also sometimes becomes
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a matter of class. It's not like what gets out of a
few parameters, so, like that' s no longer aesthetic and like what
advertising is selling us, which isselling us fashion. Yes, if you
' re not as in these forms, because you' re not so belho
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in quotation marks, beauty, no, then, here you link aesthetics with
perception, no, and it seemsto me that that' s interesting how
you link this, how you linkaesthetics with per Or let' s say
that in aesthetics there is something veryinteresting. It is that in everyday life,
that aesthetic, there is one encounter, there is an inexhaustible production of
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encounters of me that I meet withthe other, with other bodies, and
there are signs and are ways inwhich in my life they transform with encountering
other bodies and because those bodies,in one way or another, break my
limits and those bodies break their limitsand create new ways of creating together with
the other. So, in everydaylife, in that aesthetic. If we
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value aesthetics from that point of view, which is not hegemonic, we will
find that it will be easier tofind ourselves from perception because I am not
speaking here of aesthetics as being directedtowards a certain type of language, whether
musical or the other, but Iam talking here about an aesthetic of what
bodies say more than what bodies speak. And that' s a very interesting
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thing, because the bodies talk andhave a semiotic of which we can'
t in one other way recognize atthe naked eye, and we need to
develop sensitive listeners to listen to thosebodies, to listen, because the words
say a lot, but the actionssay more or simply contradict what they say.
As you say what we read,Karen' s now, no,
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the words aren' t enough andFelden Gras also said it. No.
Words don' t reach. Thewords are linear goes one after the other
then, but life happens simultaneously.Everything is happening, thought, action,
movement, emotion, all is time. But to put it into language,
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it' s my turn to putone word behind the other so I can
express it. And it always stayscortic. So this is about aesthetics and
perception, and I want to emphasizehere what you, because you propose an
aesthetic, of the everyday, ofwhat we see, the contact with the
other, of being, of whathappens in life, what happens in life
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itself, how you are linking it. So, with this Zomatic Education thing,
I' d like you to bringhere a little bit of what one
of your important authors works is spiny, that I love and how this goes
and delizates then how you' relinking these elements. Well, let'
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s say, the most interesting thingis to understand and break with precisely those
dichotomous ideas that there is something goodor something bad and that there are binarisms.
Yeah, and that' s exactlywhat' s interesting. Spiny thorny
you teach us for a moment thatthere are no good things or bad things,
but that there are things that powerbodies and other things that is power
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in bodies. And that already inanother way, makes us understand that all
the relationships that we have with eachother are neither good nor bad, but
that sometimes they power us and sometimesthen power us. So we already see
the other one as one I'm going to put a word here that
maybe an exity, something that justaffects us, that affects us then it
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' s something very interesting, becausethose affectations enhance my actions. So,
the power to link that up andunderstand that there is no good or bad
already leads me to the difference,to understand the difference as an added value,
not to understand it as something oppositeto the good or to what we
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say can be the different thing tothe good. It has almost always been
put before identity and what is similar. So, and that leads precisely to
killing again that this spinosa thought isvery powerful, because it leads us to
understand the other as a different one, not to give it a name to
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treat it, to include it,then to understand the other bodies as different,
as they go there and of itis obviously within that thought that helps
us to understand precisely the bodies asthose entities that power, that are forces,
that power is not power. So, that' s where I start
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tying up those two things. Howgood and there, for example, then
how the somatic appears in somatic education, that the conversation we saw you preparing
for this program seems very beautiful tome, because very powerful things came out.
That' s why the somatic isprecisely what Felden does Thank you,
it' s that the person understandshimself without looking for a model. And
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that' s a very important thing, because what makes the difference precisely is
not being subject to a model,but the difference arises because it' s
precisely different. Then it' sthe whole somatic question. It is probably
powerful, because even though I guideI am a person who guides those perceptions
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and those feelings, at no timeam I leading to modeling the other,
but the difference is emerging in thatother. In other words, in his
word, we could say that heis mapping his territory, body is living
it, but he is not mappingit. And there' s a big
difference between mapping and mapping. Mappingis, for example, I' m
where my head is, I'm where my shoulder is, but when
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I do a cartography, I'm understanding how that works so that I
don' t have a head nameif they don' t have a man
' s name, but I'm simply understanding that a body is being
built that is continuously modulating and that' s something very powerful of somatic education,
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which leads precisely to the difference arisingin a way, in a very
spontaneous way, and that the differenceis being valued without following a clear model.
That is precisely how powerful and whatI find interesting is, for example,
good the two of us who areFelden crace masters who know that,
for example, a group class,a person lies down and since one can
make an invitation, we will relaxtensions or you will find the power of
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your pelvis or. Well, whatevertitle we put in the class. What
there is is a condition of confidence, of tranquility, that I am coming
to a safe space, to aspace in which I can also be and
I can discover how to be.Not then, I think that' s
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where the interesting is, too.Not because I can be myself, myself,
without comparing myself to the other.And again here comes that difference you
' re talking about. I donot compare myself with the other, but
I am simply and that, becausewe have few spaces today in the world,
in our society, that allow usto be what we are exactly then,
(25:07):
precisely that, those currents of Zomaticeducation by Felden Tres, for example,
is a way of resensitizing us,of perhaps facilitating access to that knowledge
that goes beyond the rational, whichis that sensitive knowledge. Yes, it
is a knowledge that lately the schoolalso and I return after the tale of
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education, has redirected and has orientedto certain senses. Let' s say
hegemonics like sight, hearing, forexample, is one of them. We
have the cell phone, we havedevices that say they give privilege to certain
senses and we forget that we havemore than five senses. Yes, there
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are many senses. What happens isthat when we give them a name,
their chances of being something different disappear. That' s what I always thought.
So precisely that cartography, or thatwhich makes somatic education, that cartography
through the body and with the body, let' s say I' m
a form. Precisely what I callthat is the man I also give to
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somatic education, it is a cartographythrough the body where I become subject and
object of study, but without bringingin any child came a judgment of value
about it. So that gives mesome knowledge that is own and powerful to
define me as different and not tomatch it with another. So, precisely
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this is very powerful in education andit was one of the very interesting tools
that I used in research, becauseif I want to come to an aesthetic
of the everyday, if I wantto understand the other as a body,
I must build myself as a bodyand understand another way to listen to bodies.
So, once we do somatic education, we do feldencrast we start to
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understand each other differently and we startto listen to each other differently, because
that' s double I saw clear, so here the beautiful say or the
powerful, as you say, isto find that power in each other.
No yes, what we are,is what I want, is to discover
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the potential that exists in each person, not and that she discovers it.
I do not discover it, butI am a guide, as you say,
that allows the other, the other, through a series of movements,
to discover all that potential. So, well, it seems to me,
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it seems very powerful to me,let' s say we can understand it.
This is not because sometimes, unfortunately, as well, somatics is still
so unknown in our country, particularlyit is not so in other countries,
for example in Argentina, that thereis a very great sensitivity towards everything that
has to do with the studies ofcorporality, corporeality, etcetera. And so,
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they' ve had somatic work,with Alexander, with body Mind,
Centering, Grace' s Cophel,Eutonia, etcetera. Well, well,
there' s a different sensitivity.So this is how it relates in our
country, what you' re findingin your practice, in your research,
(28:36):
you did with college students, andwhat were the methodologies you used to get
there. Well, like all ofthis you' re proposing today, well,
let' s say the hardest thing, as you said, is to
get this idea of the sensitive intoa knowledge that' s rational. Memónica,
(28:59):
then the complex was precisely to anchormyself with certain authors who gave validity
to the subject matter and who wererecognized, unfortunately by the Academy. Yeah,
yeah, so that' s whereI had to stand thorny, I
had to bend nitz, I hadto use them, Puco, just like
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they came in from the body.Even one of the greatest thinkers about the
body is of them, for example, and with their iguatari with their organless
body as they build bodies to formbodies. That' s them. Yes,
they get into that point in avery very, let' s say,
very direct way and touch it andtouch it in books like capitalism and
(29:45):
schizophrenia. Well, anyway, oneof those things. So, when I
got involved with this issue, Iwas clear that I could not enter with
a qualitative or quantitative methodology, becausethis is already on the outside. We
are talking about a methodology that ledme to value the sensitive within the research.
(30:11):
Yes, then it was what eachone needed in one way or another,
it was to differentiate bodies, thateach body appeared as it is and,
above all, to break hierarchies,that that was the most complex thing.
Then, at that time I nolonger understood myself, I no longer
considered myself a teacher, but wasanother linked body within the research, and
(30:34):
I linked sensitive cartography as a supremelyimportant tool. Sensitive catographies is precisely what
developed Cobo Peter Palpelburt sullay rollny OaTarik and is precisely a way of resensitizing
what makes it easier for us toenter other knowledge? Yeah, where we
(31:00):
left off the knowledge about that isa very important thing. I mean,
we leave our value judgments, ourassets over and we just focus on what
our bodies are feeling, they're going through and we start reading other
bodies. So, for that itwas important to get students out of a
knowledge. Let' s say hegemonic, then teach them to understand that there
(31:23):
are no judgments of value. Resensitizingthe Felding crih was valuable to those precisely.
They began to recognize his body ashis body, not as they have
told him what his body is.To begin to value, let' s
say the differences and enter over territoriesthat they already considered known, because it
(31:45):
is that we did some cartographies inthe known territories, but to enter without
judgments of value and with a newvision requires a deconstruction of value judgments.
Then it was a series of detailswhere we were arming, precisely we were
(32:07):
arming ATMS yfes where we simply brokewith the canons of learning, we learned
transversally, we generated knowledge together andthat is precisely what we were carrying within
the research. Another very important elementwas the schism analysis. That' s
(32:28):
right, you can get weird tests. It is a methodology that precisely exploded,
exploded from ls and Watari between Antidipand Vilnzetas. And it is precisely
the sch chianalysis as a way togo transversal, as you say to go
multidimensional, without focusing on one thing, but never being at a fixed point,
(32:50):
but to go changing from points topoints, so as not to feel
that one is going to have asignifier, but that he is surrounded by
many things that he is not learninghere. Yeah, well, and I
' ll leave it there,'cause the Survey, that' s a
little more messy. But, well, I' d like you to,
like, talk a little bit aboutthat schisoanalysis thing there, because, well,
(33:12):
I first got a resounding amount andit says this what it means.
This is kind of crazy, butwell, let' s say, but
well, it' s not alittle bit like good, you tell us
how of the essence is to understandthat we' re not at a single
point, not that at the sametime many things are happening in us,
(33:37):
right, and these methodologies, sothey' re what a Celtin cris is,
yes, tools, territory mapping,then spelling, schisoanalysis, and what
is proposed by the schisoanalysis is let' s say, what it proposes is
a güet that is outside any attemptat interpretation. Yes I mean, I
don' t interpret the other andwith the objective of saying that from it
(34:01):
arises many creative processes from the desirethat, that is a little tangled.
But let' s say that,that' s what he wants. Detachments.
They have, say, within thetasks of schisoanalysis. They have several
constructive and destructive tasks. They,initially what they want is not to give
(34:22):
importance to a semiotic, but toseveral semiotic, because we focus on the
semiotic language, which is very significant, but for schicioanalysis, because being the
body is another semiotic, music isanother semiotic. Then the schicioanalysis addresses all
the semiotics among them, since thepossible ones. Yeah, I mean,
we don' t just focus onlanguage. That' s why we,
(34:43):
in schizonalysis, read the semiotics tothe body, for example. Yes,
then and we understand that there areother pedagogies, there are other semiotics and
the body language is a form aswell. Yeah. Another interesting thing is
that in schizoanalysis there is never alwaysa process of constants of this ritorialization.
(35:06):
What this means, what territorialization is, when we say we believe, for
example, that the eye simply servesto see, but in other cultures it
turns out that you hear, forexample, one I' m going to
give you a very simple example ofeveryday how we deterritorialize the senses. When
(35:30):
I say you see what I'm telling you. Sure, there'
s one of this ritualization. Ican' t see what you' re
telling me, but why I'm saying it, because I' m
territorializing the view of the flow,of the flow, let' s say
of the light plus I' mseeing the sound. So it' s
a very rare thing, but inother cultures it' s very common.
(35:51):
Of course, of course, ofcourse, yes, then these are constant
processes of territorialization. And that's what it says, for example,
with some activities where I told studentsto feel or feel music watching music.
We can do that. What happensis that we have been taught that the
(36:13):
senses have only one way, theyhave a life that the ear sees and
that the ear listens and that theview let' s say sees, but
let' s say synesthesia. Thatis why it caused great problems and was
considered a disease that were those musicianswho saw, saw, saw sounds or
(36:36):
could simply make sounds with colors.So they said this or that that is
a territorialization that everyone, with training, we could get to make it clear,
of course, of course, andhere I see one, for example.
On the one hand, both thelanguage, for example, the one
that is used good and asks asapologies to the listeners, with the riberyentes,
for speaking so much felden crise,but well we are two masters of
(36:59):
fault and clay is here to defineis almost inevitable. But as from Felden
Crice, we use both metaphor,we use both a symbolic language, not
what sharpens that, because one says, observes and you are with closed eyes,
observes what is happening inside you usingthese let' s say the source
(37:22):
of information, if we say itfrom the neurological point of view, because
it is the perception, the ownexception that allows me, the interception that
allows me to build this that Iam going to. Let' s say
I' m working on myself,on my self, on my own identity.
No, then, exactly then,there it seems to me to go
(37:46):
on, go on, go on, go on, if not, no,
then let' s say what ithas to do with it, like
all these things we use and thenlisten to what you feel. Listen to
how you feel. Imagine, watchwith your eyes closed what is happening within
you So, all the time weare using all our systems that gives us
(38:08):
information more inside than outside, becausewith my eyes closed I am listening to
what is happening within me, truethrough an information of my own, exceptional
and perceptive. That' s notwhat you' re giving me. This
then and it' s very powerful. That' s what you say,
(38:30):
because it' s precisely the exactterritorialization and it' s taking us to
other points. That' s whyit' s supremely valuable. And another
thing we' ve also touched isthat there' s movement with hands,
that' s something that' salso interesting within differential relationships. I call
(38:52):
among the bodies what happens, whichis something that happens in Fellin crasi again
we talk about Happy and what apity that we are the same talking about
fellences. But happy clear is verypowerful in this thesis, precisely because when
we talk about the aptyptic, whatthe hands do, what I can feel
with my hands, when I doan if an emotional integration, I am
(39:13):
not talking to the other. Iam starting a conversation from touch, and
that conversation is generating a differential relationship, where the two bodies are composing and
generating something powerful new, where alreadythe semiotic is not the language, but
the body. How those two bodiesare dancing and generating a new being because
(39:38):
they' re composing. So itlooks like Felding Cras and they were thinking
about the same thing. But whatFelden Krisch did was land it itself and
let' s say land some partof the thought of les and thorny.
But the interesting thing is that thataptic relationship is to move with each other.
(40:05):
It is a very powerful one whenit comes to complementing and understanding the
difference. And there you end upwith this word I already wanted to take.
And it' s the difference.Let' s say, because,
for example, when a person doesnot have the ability to see what he
can do with the ears with touch, it is a wonderful thing, or
(40:30):
the person who cannot hear know thathe can also hear through his hands,
through vibration, through what his bodyperceives. Yes, then, that'
s also a way to expand andunderstand that not if we lack a sense,
we can, we have the possibility, the potential, the ability to
(40:55):
say develop others in a way thatcan perceive the world exactly. So,
well, let' s just saythat it would come up with this whole
disability thing. The difference is morethan disability, the difference that I find
most beautiful. So, then,well, I think it' s very
nice. Well, and we're going to get this about aesthetics,
(41:21):
the everyday and the minor, howyou' re decanting through all this that
we' ve already been looking at, these reflections about education, about aesthetics,
about somatics, about the body.Obviously, it goes through all of
this, how it appears and whatit is as presentations. Well, let
' s say the everyday thing,which has been glimpsed as a repetition,
(41:46):
as a repetition, but really,what happens that the actual repetitions nochisten.
There are repetitions. Every daily lifeis a different repetition, because we are
not the same and we are notthe same. And what happens is that
when we turn off our senses,those daily repetitions become static, they are
(42:07):
not dynamic. So, precisely therepetition, the minor everyday aesthetic, refers
to a completely differentiated, completely differentiateddailyity, which is hidden within that majority
that we cannot say understand why oursensitive listening is off and that is why
(42:31):
the everyday seems completely devoid of importance. Therefore the pedagogy of difference moves within
everyday life, within the smallest andwithin the appreciation of difference as a differential
repetition. So, then that's valuable, because what happens is that
(42:55):
we realize that everyday life for usis what this is no longer because it
' s boring, but it's a lie, because that sensitive listening
has turned us off, which makesus understand the opportidianity as a differentiated,
dynamic repetition that builds and builds fromthe presence of other bodies and with my
(43:16):
body, which is generating precisely adifferential relationship similar to that we do when
we dance with the other that wedon' t communicate with, but we
simply modulate one with respect to thestep of the other. And how interesting
to understand from there, like thatrepetitions, that repetitions, that is,
(43:37):
that the everyday, that which yousay the sensitive listening, has disappeared by
automatism. No, I mean,obviously we learn to do things automatically,
because it' s the brain andnervous system, because it would be impossible
to survive if we were attentive toeverything we do. No, but I
(43:58):
think there' s something interesting abouthow we maintain sensitivity. I love this
word sensitive listening, which is whatwe also develop not as a teacher,
not being able to hear this,which is invisible to the eyes. Not
like going to the prince as theinvisible, what' s obvious? Also
(44:21):
taking words from Felden, grow thisthat is elusive in the eyes, not
that it is obvious, but thatwe do not see it yes, then
it seems to me that it isvery powerful to be able to rescue within
our automatic daily life. But wherewe can be more attentive to what we
(44:45):
do every day, because you mentionone thing that I think is very important
to you. That' s whatI tell students a lot and it'
s you before you start class,when you finish the house, and you
' re not the same anymore,either good or. But something, something
happens in class, something happens inthis conversation. I' m already leaving
(45:07):
today with a lot of things thatI' ve talked to you about and
that we talked about before, thatclarify me and allow me, as well
as seeing different things. Not then, I am no longer the same,
but when I allow myself to feelthat every day, every experience I have,
(45:28):
every conversation I have, every contact, every walk around here in the
center, no matter how it transformsme. I think that' s like
what life is all about. No, not exactly that, then, because
that is precisely what is powerful aboutthis situation. It' s not being
(45:52):
able to understand what, and thatthe difference that difference and come back again
forgives that I focus a little biton education, is that what these denominations
of lgtaviqu more than lately arise that' s real. We believe that this
is a way of accepting the differencein their lies. When I call it
something, what I want is totreat you with a name to see it
(46:15):
not similar to what I am.In other words, it would be enough
to understand the difference in order notto name anything and accept its value.
Sure, and it' s gotto do with this one. Let'
s say as the coherence that wehave between what we say, if we
do it and you can say ahyes clearly, I don' t know
(46:37):
how the disability that it is canbe what I can have the closest.
I do, but if in myaction I am not having a different way
of being or accepting, it hasno value. That' s how I
call it, so, give ita name and I think it' s
very interesting. That' s itI have a very big criticism of the
(47:00):
inclusion policies that are being made lately, because inclusion policies Who I include towards
the center, who is the center, or who has the right to better
include. That is one of thequestions. It seems to me that inclusion
is always like a double- edgedtool that more than you want is like
you who are different from me,that is, the difference seen from that
(47:22):
point of view of identity. I' m going to get you close to
me to see if he can beequal. It' s like the idea
of inclusion to me, and that' s why those policies make me sound.
Of course, of course, ofcourse, everything has to do with
the intention there is and somehow.But again, going back as usual,
(47:43):
what do I do in everyday life, what do I do? In everyday
life, what is my expression andhow my body manifests itself when I see
a different person. True as soonas I see a transvestite person, when
I see a person with some majorphysical disability, yes, what, what
is it that I' m reallyexparing with my body, not and how
(48:07):
I can handle it. Well,I' d like to, before we
close, let' s do alittle session with an activity here of self
- consciousness and if you want torun it yourself so you can decant a
little what we' ve talked aboutand then we shut down, the program
(48:37):
seems to you to take care of. The body is the space created to
give you some ways to be betterin your body through conscious movement. Note
how small changes in attention provide transformationsin your movement, in daily life and
your feeling of well- being,well, ready well, then let'
(49:08):
s try to listen a little bitwith hands, which is one of the
issues that interests me most now.Then just turn off and let' s
try to turn off the other senses. Simply use the palm that best suits
your right or left and try toplace it on your chest and place it
(49:30):
on your chest anywhere that catches yourattention and there just let the palm start
reacting to any movement that happens onyour chest. Maybe you' ll start
listening to some rhythmic or rhythmic expansionIt doesn' t matter. Just bring
(49:55):
attention to the dove And now imaginethat that palm goes through the chest and
gets more internal, it goes throughprecisely ribs or sternum according to where you
have it and you start listening.The heart is a papitar that may be
(50:24):
strong, weak, constant, aconstant no matter what. Now feel the
internal temperature. Don' t juststick with the surface of the skin,
but carry that palm further inside,as if your skin were a gilatin that
(50:52):
you can go through and see whatcolor is dark there is clear, what
temperature you can, let' ssay perceive between the inside and the outside.
(51:20):
What a difference it is. Nowmove your palm, which is no
longer outside, but inside your body, to the opposite side, to the
left or to the right, andfeel each of those structures that you already
(51:40):
know from the anatomical point of view, or just imagine that you can find
inside which texture, what is thetemperature? It' s sticky, wet
(52:07):
dry and to the other side toobserve what changes can you find? He
initially feels how his chest moves.There is some movement, now some sound,
(52:29):
increases or decreases that sound. Ifyou wanted to surround your lungs or
that lung where you are, beit left or right, what that texture
would look like. Imagine that you' re already inside the skin, you
(52:54):
' ve already broken that limit,you' re already on the inside and
the extension of your palm decreases asthe space in the bull increases. Now
(53:32):
pass or take your palm anywhere,be the abdomen higher in your chest wherever
you want, but observe your changesin texture. Now it is stronger,
harder, softer, colder than youhear for a moment rest low hands or
(54:15):
hand and compare your hand you heardwith the hand you didn' t hear.
What' s the difference between oneand the other? She' s
(54:37):
more awake, warmer, what's the difference between one and the other.
It was activated more on one sidethan on the other, one palm
than on the other. Thank you. This is a way that I use
(55:05):
for the hands to begin to be, say, carried beyond their tactile experience,
but to start listening, to seewhy I tell them what it looks
like inside dark or good end.And it' s interesting to give another
(55:29):
meaning to touch. I loved lackof vich I had never done in a
yes experience and loved very good thinkingwith the body, understanding the relationships between
art, body and movement. Well, then, Juanta, I saw so
(55:58):
many thanks, so many congratulations onthis text. You have to read it
to understand more everything that you proposedto us today in this conversation. And,
well, it goes on now,after this man David, after this
publication. Well, let' ssay I want to continue to investigate the
(56:23):
issue of performance and body as aninstrument of an instrument in the good sense
of generating, say aesthetic, ethicaland political changes that I find to be
an interesting supergrant and let' ssay carrying the Felden grows as an indispensable
(56:44):
tool within the somatic bus, withinthe assessment of difference. It seems to
me that it was magnificent to linkit within the university curriculum and I think
that one of the things that Iam proposing right now is precisely to open
up a master' s degree atthe university where I am, which focuses
(57:06):
a lot on omatic pedagogies, withinobviously also the traditional normal pedagogies, but
which have a high somatic component inthose. We are working ah no well,
then many successes. Juanta says ifsomeone suddenly wants to contact you where
what phone or email. Oh,sure, look. My phone number is
three hundred twenty eight hundred thirty-seven sixty- five twenty- three and
(57:31):
my mail is John Rojas Arroba,John n Corpas edu co ready. Well,
so many successes. I think we' re going the same way in
the rosary. Also many years agowe are trying to include this somatic line
and we have been strengthening it veryclosely related to the emotional issue, but
(57:52):
today with the formation in ethical values, in ethics. But, well,
just like we' ve made thispath of asomatic lucranating. Similarly, Javeriana
University does not have a very strongenzomatic line in performing arts training. Well,
then I think that as universities,we' re doing a lot of
things, because we' re lookinglike we' re already worried about why,
(58:16):
because the body disappeared from formation.And because we have to rescue,
that is, understand that we arebody, that we are body, that
we are in this life, thestruggle is really to put it somatic in
those fields where the subject matter doesnot weigh, for example, in the
engineering. Yeah, yeah, andthat kind of thing, because the engineer
thinks he doesn' t work withbody, yeah, of course, that
(58:38):
' s, like, he workswith materials. And because let' s
say within music, within dance,within fine therapy, good end. It
' s very common to put thisin the fight, even in medicine.
It' s coming up a littlebit. That' s why it'
s complex. Oh good dual daby. Thank you so much for this conversation.
(59:04):
It really nourishes me a lot Ilearned a lot and good. I
also hope that our listeners have otherelements of reflection there. Many, many
thanks, many thanks to you victoryThank you for the invitation. Well,
then we have reached the end ofour program and well remember that we are
found through our social networks, onFacebook, on Instagram, on YouTube,
(59:28):
like Rosario Radio, that the programmingof the Broadcaster finds it in triple double
point or Rosario Radio dot ceo.Thank you Nelson for always being there.
I' m watching this show gothe best way. Thanks to Mario Castro,
director of the Issue, And wellVictoria Molina spoke to them and good
(59:50):
to me they can also find mewriting if they want information on Info Arroba.
Victoria Molina dot ceo. Well,I invite you to. I invite
you to continue with the dramatic programmingof the Issue and we hear each other
in a forthcoming programme. Until soonhe ends a space where he knew about
(01:00:14):
body- mind relationships and understood thepotential, wisdom, and intelligence of the
human body. One hour with theradio show of the physiotherapy program of the
University of Rosario. Thinking about thebody, come and discover everything that can
be done, learned and felt fromthe consciousness of living in motion. See
(01:00:35):
you soon, this was thinking withthe body.
It initiates a space to know aboutrelationships physically and understand the potential, wisdom
and intelligence of the human body.Connect for an hour with the radio show
of the physiotherapy program of the Universityof Rosario, thinking with the body come
and discover everything that can be done, learned and felt from the consciousness of
(00:25):
living in motion. Welcome, thisis, thinking with the good body,
welcome, welcome to the program thinkingwith the body is pass the physiotherapy program
of the University of Rosario from themicrophones of the institutional station Rosario Radio here
(00:51):
at the Cloister, on a coldday Bogota, I send a warm greeting
to all our cyberyents. For meit is always a matter of gratitude to
be able to carry out a newprogram and to have the presence of each
person who is of their space,their practices in everyday life, their studies.
(01:11):
I' ve had two PhDs herelately. It provides for us to
be better human beings and to havea more just and peaceful society. In
the section, the word to awakenconsciousness will grow the reading and two poems
that are contained in the book TheAesthetics of the Daily or Less towards a
(01:34):
pedagogy of the difference that is,therefore, the author is or my guest
of today. And this, then, these two poems invite us to reflect
and serve as a pleaming theme thatwe will deal with today with Juan David
Rojas, with whom we will discussthe theme the aesthetics of the everyday in
(01:59):
the section, taking care of thebody and movement. So much, we
will conduct a session of self-awareness through the movement to decant in the
body as is the hallmark of thisprogram of what we discuss. Well,
remember it' s here. Theyare listening to us on our website Triple
DOBLEU dot Rosario Radio dot seo,as on broadcast platforms, like Radio dot
(02:22):
Ugarty. Likewise, if you wantto connect with us on social networks,
you find us as Rosario Radio onInstagram, Facebook, YouTube. In addition,
on the website Triple double U dotUrosario Radio dot seo find the programming
of the station. If you arelate for this broadcast or if you miss
(02:45):
some of our programs, remember thatthis and all the Eurosario Radio programs find
them on the platforms is Preaker,Spotify and Apple Podcast. Well, thank
you very much to those who listento our show. Received a lot of
messages. And, for example,Alfonso Rodriguez tells me to come back and
(03:08):
listen to the show with Natalia Nataliaabout somatics and peace, and he says
and I always want to hear itagain. So good for me, that
' s like a reason for alot of joy. He says so,
I listened again to him as asomatic for peace with Natalia Silva and he
has enriched me much the same noteevery time you take it more, more
(03:32):
and more majestic, conscious and tunedwith the proposal you want to make of
the program. My respects and goodhow cute. And on the other hand,
Alejandro Bojaca dialects read what he tellsme. Alejandra Bojaca also writes a
very beautiful text and says the followingmy dear victory. I pass here in
(03:54):
total gratitude for you and for thisbeautiful program thinking with the body. Thank
you for rescuing the flavors that remainengraved in the body through your word and
each of your guests. Thank you, Aleja, to Angela, to Santa
Maria, for reminding us that itis important to connect from the heart and
(04:16):
that ancestral knowledge and life are wovenand resonated sesana no matter borders. A
strong hug from heart to heart.Okay. Thank you, Aleja, thank
you in Alfonso, for each ofthese comments, because good encourage me to
follow, to continue with this,with this proposal of this program. Okay.
(04:39):
I also thank the Sol Duarte,who is always with me with the
Master Control and Mario Caso, directorof the station. I' m Victoria
Molina I' m a physiotherapist I' m a professor of physiotherapy. Teacher
to the Felden Grais method and good. Um welcome, welcome to this program
(05:00):
thinking with the body, a programthat moves your whole being you knew that
recovering habits from healthy movements allow usto live life better thinking with the body
the word to awaken consciousness. Inthis section we carry out a reading that
(05:21):
allows us to introduce the topic thatwe are going to deal with with the
guest. Prepare for moments of reflectionand tranquility. Enjoy these moments. Well,
as I was saying a moment ago, I' m going to read
(05:46):
two as two poems written by twoparticipants in the research that gave rise to
the text. The aesthetics of theeveryday or minor towards a pedagogy of difference.
The first one is of errand andsays so it is called or entitled
to temporals of the limiting wind,a tormented visceral poet of the piano who
(06:15):
finished his chat in darkness of theconfusing technique in which he has finished leftovers
of the ancient knowledge that was invokedfrom the paper, who discovered himself listening
to the different and that from thatrising sun documents our stories breaking all physical
(06:39):
law, observing what happened, vaguesentence of yesterday wrong premise of tomorrow,
we were looking for a lotus flowerthat sprouted here or beyond the motionless time
of the solitary swamp lugs neglected lossso much foot to this theory will be
(07:08):
frozen in that photograph restlessness that Isee using the same broken jin. I
am now one more spectator of thissilent art thought extracted from a pantomime and
the next. Next versus. Thefollowing verses are written by Karen and is
entitled the youngest sixth. You'd hear how we smashed a piano into
(07:32):
little crumbs. We could still sensehis drowning sound. We differentiate each other.
There are spaces and places without invisiblebarriers. We can find each other
looking in the eye. If todaythe beloved world, the beloved world,
(07:56):
were to end, what did youlearn during your stay in it? A
reflection on the outside world that wehave inside, projections of our knowledges,
prejudices and systems induced by our cultures, which is not bad, much less
abominable. But with a second.But for a second, listen carefully to
(08:20):
what' s out there if youask questions and melodies. Yes, questions
and melodies, actions and situations thatare activated at every moment of life,
converging into a number of new knowledges. Molding our way of appreciating the breath
of the new day. And you' ll have it, by telling me
(08:46):
I' m already reading your letterand we' ll attest to it.
And now what, then, mydear reader, I regret to tell you
that what you seek is not uponmy vague letters. Language alone cannot contain
the world. So, b andsalt learn to sensitize your listening. Open
(09:09):
one of a thousand possibilities, becausein order to end something, you must
destroy it with faith to want tosee it, to transform, to know
(09:35):
and to discover the human body inmotion generates consciousness, autonomy and recognition of
us the human being as a whole. In this section we share with us
their experience and knowledge people who liveand assume the human being. Community with
the whole understand new practical relationships andapproaches that allow us to advance in a
(10:01):
better understanding of us as human beings. Or, well, as I was
saying to the show prince, Ihave Juan David Rojas today. Quan David,
good morning, how are you?Thank you for being on the Hola
Victoria program. Good morning, thankyou for your invitation. Very happy to
(10:24):
be here in your space. Thankyou, Well, Han David. He
is a music teacher at the PontificalJaveriana University. He is a music teacher
at Texas Christian University. He isa practitioner of the felden Crice method.
Master of the felden Cras method certifiedby the intern, the International Federation of
(10:50):
felden Crice, Member of the ColombianAssociation. The felden Grace method is good
and has a long history of formationand I think I want to emphasize that
it is this PhD in education sciencefrom the University of La Sabana, which
is the doctorate you just finished.Well, Juan David, thank you for
(11:15):
being here and for coming to shareyour text. Well, first of all,
congratulations. I believe that making abook and because it is not so
easy, it has never been easy, but well, really, congratulations for
that achievement and for having completed,because your doctorate with so much, with
so many, with so much success. Thank you very much, victory.
(11:35):
Yeah, doing something like that isn' t easy, but good. Thank
you, he took it to ahappy conclusion. Well, that' s
good, good and somehow, becausethe text allows many people to know these
reflections and everything that you did forseveral years and that' s very beautiful
not to be able to share whatyou learned. But then, well,
(11:56):
I want us to start from where, because the text is very striking,
the name. No, then Iwant us to start, by the way,
where it comes from like those firstreflections, motivations, maybe as a
professor who you are from Juan EneCorpas University for many years. So,
(12:18):
tell us, how do these firstquestions begin, what do you do about
the education of aesthetics to get to, so, what you present today,
okay, let' s say thatall part of a question of how the
school has been structured as usual andhow really the school, the school,
(12:41):
the educational institution has been more concernedabout is one by one apo, as
well as a manufacture of people whofulfill specific roles in the market and who,
in one way or another, forgetto know and only focus on a
clearly rational knowledge and let' ssay out of that sensitive knowledge of the
(13:05):
bodies that are there with as youhave said in your program, are or
are complete, are holistic. Yes, then it is precisely a question of
why the school is involved precisely ina fabrication that leads to completely homogenizing curriculus
in which one forgets precisely how bodiesaffect one another, how they learn from
(13:31):
one another. And coming back tothe tale of aesthetics, it' s
what' s more everyday than thebody. The body is something that we
live daily, but it is reallya territory that becomes ethical, aesthetic,
but at the same time political.Yes, then it is an interesting question
(13:52):
that all these educational questions have focusedon a clearly rational knowledge, but they
leave the body in its entirety,in its sensitivity, in its thesis,
in its perception outside. Then itis one of the questions that leads me
to rethink a new pedagogy that isbased precisely on those concepts of aesthetics,
(14:16):
cortidianity and difference that later, asI will tell you more or less of
which rat. But for now that' s what makes me clear. Well
and so, obviously understand that education, because it is still based on this
model of understanding the body and themind. We have not yet managed to
move forward to understand ourselves as integralbeings, true, as from an integrality
(14:41):
in which the body and the mindare a unity, not but we are
always still with this duality that follows, since, obviously, so marked in
our education, in our practice,in our formation, from our health,
from any of the most forms wehave. So, well, here it
appears as the concept of education.Let' s just leave it as if
(15:05):
suspended. How the concept now appearsof aesthetics, from where you see it,
therefore, as a musician who isalways framed in aesthetics, also that
it is a homogenized aesthetic. Notthen how this is as parts there is
precisely the being linked to a completelywestern aesthetic, as you say hegemonic,
(15:31):
of western music, of classical music, which leads me to ask if all
those aesthetics and a manipulation about givingcertain people access to certain sensitive knowledge,
a distribution of the sensitive, soto speak and we leave the aesthetics aside
as really the possibility of feeling ofperception. And that' s what anyone
(15:56):
has. It does not have fromthe person who is not studied music to
the one who is the best musicianor, if you understand me that is,
we all have the ability to feeland to move within our perceptions and
in our sensitive perception. Then,why entangle aesthetics in something that has to
be completely hegemonic and bring it outprecisely to the everyday and understand that aesthetics
(16:21):
is a way of living, ofbuilding life, is an aesthetic of existence,
as Fucosi said, It is,as I do, of my life,
a work of art, or Isaid Cito. Yes, then it
is precisely to forget that being amusician and obviously, because I move from
(16:41):
a tetica. But there are differentaesthetics, different ones that do not imply
that they are good or bad,that they are better or worse, but
that they simply enhance bodies or powersin different ways. So, it is
precisely to get out of that aesthetic, that traditional aesthetic to ask the aesthetics
(17:03):
of locutuvion is a way of valuingthe difference of going into breaking the limits
of both bodies and actions as societies, etcetera. It' s nice,
because it seems to me that here, like the aesthetics that you obviously talk
about from the music, from thebody, but how aesthetics also sometimes becomes
(17:23):
a matter of class. It's not like what gets out of a
few parameters, so, like that' s no longer aesthetic and like what
advertising is selling us, which isselling us fashion. Yes, if you
' re not as in these forms, because you' re not so belho
(17:47):
in quotation marks, beauty, no, then, here you link aesthetics with
perception, no, and it seemsto me that that' s interesting how
you link this, how you linkaesthetics with per Or let' s say
that in aesthetics there is something veryinteresting. It is that in everyday life,
that aesthetic, there is one encounter, there is an inexhaustible production of
(18:14):
encounters of me that I meet withthe other, with other bodies, and
there are signs and are ways inwhich in my life they transform with encountering
other bodies and because those bodies,in one way or another, break my
limits and those bodies break their limitsand create new ways of creating together with
the other. So, in everydaylife, in that aesthetic. If we
(18:37):
value aesthetics from that point of view, which is not hegemonic, we will
find that it will be easier tofind ourselves from perception because I am not
speaking here of aesthetics as being directedtowards a certain type of language, whether
musical or the other, but Iam talking here about an aesthetic of what
bodies say more than what bodies speak. And that' s a very interesting
(19:04):
thing, because the bodies talk andhave a semiotic of which we can'
t in one other way recognize atthe naked eye, and we need to
develop sensitive listeners to listen to thosebodies, to listen, because the words
say a lot, but the actionssay more or simply contradict what they say.
As you say what we read,Karen' s now, no,
(19:29):
the words aren' t enough andFelden Gras also said it. No.
Words don' t reach. Thewords are linear goes one after the other
then, but life happens simultaneously.Everything is happening, thought, action,
movement, emotion, all is time. But to put it into language,
(19:51):
it' s my turn to putone word behind the other so I can
express it. And it always stayscortic. So this is about aesthetics and
perception, and I want to emphasizehere what you, because you propose an
aesthetic, of the everyday, ofwhat we see, the contact with the
other, of being, of whathappens in life, what happens in life
(20:11):
itself, how you are linking it. So, with this Zomatic Education thing,
I' d like you to bringhere a little bit of what one
of your important authors works is spiny, that I love and how this goes
and delizates then how you' relinking these elements. Well, let'
(20:34):
s say, the most interesting thingis to understand and break with precisely those
dichotomous ideas that there is something goodor something bad and that there are binarisms.
Yeah, and that' s exactlywhat' s interesting. Spiny thorny
you teach us for a moment thatthere are no good things or bad things,
but that there are things that powerbodies and other things that is power
(20:56):
in bodies. And that already inanother way, makes us understand that all
the relationships that we have with eachother are neither good nor bad, but
that sometimes they power us and sometimesthen power us. So we already see
the other one as one I'm going to put a word here that
maybe an exity, something that justaffects us, that affects us then it
(21:18):
' s something very interesting, becausethose affectations enhance my actions. So,
the power to link that up andunderstand that there is no good or bad
already leads me to the difference,to understand the difference as an added value,
not to understand it as something oppositeto the good or to what we
(21:42):
say can be the different thing tothe good. It has almost always been
put before identity and what is similar. So, and that leads precisely to
killing again that this spinosa thought isvery powerful, because it leads us to
understand the other as a different one, not to give it a name to
(22:03):
treat it, to include it,then to understand the other bodies as different,
as they go there and of itis obviously within that thought that helps
us to understand precisely the bodies asthose entities that power, that are forces,
that power is not power. So, that' s where I start
(22:23):
tying up those two things. Howgood and there, for example, then
how the somatic appears in somatic education, that the conversation we saw you preparing
for this program seems very beautiful tome, because very powerful things came out.
That' s why the somatic isprecisely what Felden does Thank you,
it' s that the person understandshimself without looking for a model. And
(22:48):
that' s a very important thing, because what makes the difference precisely is
not being subject to a model,but the difference arises because it' s
precisely different. Then it' sthe whole somatic question. It is probably
powerful, because even though I guideI am a person who guides those perceptions
(23:10):
and those feelings, at no timeam I leading to modeling the other,
but the difference is emerging in thatother. In other words, in his
word, we could say that heis mapping his territory, body is living
it, but he is not mappingit. And there' s a big
difference between mapping and mapping. Mappingis, for example, I' m
where my head is, I'm where my shoulder is, but when
(23:34):
I do a cartography, I'm understanding how that works so that I
don' t have a head nameif they don' t have a man
' s name, but I'm simply understanding that a body is being
built that is continuously modulating and that' s something very powerful of somatic education,
(23:56):
which leads precisely to the difference arisingin a way, in a very
spontaneous way, and that the differenceis being valued without following a clear model.
That is precisely how powerful and whatI find interesting is, for example,
good the two of us who areFelden crace masters who know that,
for example, a group class,a person lies down and since one can
make an invitation, we will relaxtensions or you will find the power of
(24:19):
your pelvis or. Well, whatevertitle we put in the class. What
there is is a condition of confidence, of tranquility, that I am coming
to a safe space, to aspace in which I can also be and
I can discover how to be.Not then, I think that' s
(24:40):
where the interesting is, too.Not because I can be myself, myself,
without comparing myself to the other.And again here comes that difference you
' re talking about. I donot compare myself with the other, but
I am simply and that, becausewe have few spaces today in the world,
in our society, that allow usto be what we are exactly then,
(25:07):
precisely that, those currents of Zomaticeducation by Felden Tres, for example,
is a way of resensitizing us,of perhaps facilitating access to that knowledge
that goes beyond the rational, whichis that sensitive knowledge. Yes, it
is a knowledge that lately the schoolalso and I return after the tale of
(25:30):
education, has redirected and has orientedto certain senses. Let' s say
hegemonics like sight, hearing, forexample, is one of them. We
have the cell phone, we havedevices that say they give privilege to certain
senses and we forget that we havemore than five senses. Yes, there
(25:51):
are many senses. What happens isthat when we give them a name,
their chances of being something different disappear. That' s what I always thought.
So precisely that cartography, or thatwhich makes somatic education, that cartography
through the body and with the body, let' s say I' m
a form. Precisely what I callthat is the man I also give to
(26:15):
somatic education, it is a cartographythrough the body where I become subject and
object of study, but without bringingin any child came a judgment of value
about it. So that gives mesome knowledge that is own and powerful to
define me as different and not tomatch it with another. So, precisely
(26:37):
this is very powerful in education andit was one of the very interesting tools
that I used in research, becauseif I want to come to an aesthetic
of the everyday, if I wantto understand the other as a body,
I must build myself as a bodyand understand another way to listen to bodies.
So, once we do somatic education, we do feldencrast we start to
(27:03):
understand each other differently and we startto listen to each other differently, because
that' s double I saw clear, so here the beautiful say or the
powerful, as you say, isto find that power in each other.
No yes, what we are,is what I want, is to discover
(27:26):
the potential that exists in each person, not and that she discovers it.
I do not discover it, butI am a guide, as you say,
that allows the other, the other, through a series of movements,
to discover all that potential. So, well, it seems to me,
(27:47):
it seems very powerful to me,let' s say we can understand it.
This is not because sometimes, unfortunately, as well, somatics is still
so unknown in our country, particularlyit is not so in other countries,
for example in Argentina, that thereis a very great sensitivity towards everything that
has to do with the studies ofcorporality, corporeality, etcetera. And so,
(28:12):
they' ve had somatic work,with Alexander, with body Mind,
Centering, Grace' s Cophel,Eutonia, etcetera. Well, well,
there' s a different sensitivity.So this is how it relates in our
country, what you' re findingin your practice, in your research,
(28:36):
you did with college students, andwhat were the methodologies you used to get
there. Well, like all ofthis you' re proposing today, well,
let' s say the hardest thing, as you said, is to
get this idea of the sensitive intoa knowledge that' s rational. Memónica,
(28:59):
then the complex was precisely to anchormyself with certain authors who gave validity
to the subject matter and who wererecognized, unfortunately by the Academy. Yeah,
yeah, so that' s whereI had to stand thorny, I
had to bend nitz, I hadto use them, Puco, just like
(29:21):
they came in from the body.Even one of the greatest thinkers about the
body is of them, for example, and with their iguatari with their organless
body as they build bodies to formbodies. That' s them. Yes,
they get into that point in avery very, let' s say,
very direct way and touch it andtouch it in books like capitalism and
(29:45):
schizophrenia. Well, anyway, oneof those things. So, when I
got involved with this issue, Iwas clear that I could not enter with
a qualitative or quantitative methodology, becausethis is already on the outside. We
are talking about a methodology that ledme to value the sensitive within the research.
(30:11):
Yes, then it was what eachone needed in one way or another,
it was to differentiate bodies, thateach body appeared as it is and,
above all, to break hierarchies,that that was the most complex thing.
Then, at that time I nolonger understood myself, I no longer
considered myself a teacher, but wasanother linked body within the research, and
(30:34):
I linked sensitive cartography as a supremelyimportant tool. Sensitive catographies is precisely what
developed Cobo Peter Palpelburt sullay rollny OaTarik and is precisely a way of resensitizing
what makes it easier for us toenter other knowledge? Yeah, where we
(31:00):
left off the knowledge about that isa very important thing. I mean,
we leave our value judgments, ourassets over and we just focus on what
our bodies are feeling, they're going through and we start reading other
bodies. So, for that itwas important to get students out of a
knowledge. Let' s say hegemonic, then teach them to understand that there
(31:23):
are no judgments of value. Resensitizingthe Felding crih was valuable to those precisely.
They began to recognize his body ashis body, not as they have
told him what his body is.To begin to value, let' s
say the differences and enter over territoriesthat they already considered known, because it
(31:45):
is that we did some cartographies inthe known territories, but to enter without
judgments of value and with a newvision requires a deconstruction of value judgments.
Then it was a series of detailswhere we were arming, precisely we were
(32:07):
arming ATMS yfes where we simply brokewith the canons of learning, we learned
transversally, we generated knowledge together andthat is precisely what we were carrying within
the research. Another very important elementwas the schism analysis. That' s
(32:28):
right, you can get weird tests. It is a methodology that precisely exploded,
exploded from ls and Watari between Antidipand Vilnzetas. And it is precisely
the sch chianalysis as a way togo transversal, as you say to go
multidimensional, without focusing on one thing, but never being at a fixed point,
(32:50):
but to go changing from points topoints, so as not to feel
that one is going to have asignifier, but that he is surrounded by
many things that he is not learninghere. Yeah, well, and I
' ll leave it there,'cause the Survey, that' s a
little more messy. But, well, I' d like you to,
like, talk a little bit aboutthat schisoanalysis thing there, because, well,
(33:12):
I first got a resounding amount andit says this what it means.
This is kind of crazy, butwell, let' s say, but
well, it' s not alittle bit like good, you tell us
how of the essence is to understandthat we' re not at a single
point, not that at the sametime many things are happening in us,
(33:37):
right, and these methodologies, sothey' re what a Celtin cris is,
yes, tools, territory mapping,then spelling, schisoanalysis, and what
is proposed by the schisoanalysis is let' s say, what it proposes is
a güet that is outside any attemptat interpretation. Yes I mean, I
don' t interpret the other andwith the objective of saying that from it
(34:01):
arises many creative processes from the desirethat, that is a little tangled.
But let' s say that,that' s what he wants. Detachments.
They have, say, within thetasks of schisoanalysis. They have several
constructive and destructive tasks. They,initially what they want is not to give
(34:22):
importance to a semiotic, but toseveral semiotic, because we focus on the
semiotic language, which is very significant, but for schicioanalysis, because being the
body is another semiotic, music isanother semiotic. Then the schicioanalysis addresses all
the semiotics among them, since thepossible ones. Yeah, I mean,
we don' t just focus onlanguage. That' s why we,
(34:43):
in schizonalysis, read the semiotics tothe body, for example. Yes,
then and we understand that there areother pedagogies, there are other semiotics and
the body language is a form aswell. Yeah. Another interesting thing is
that in schizoanalysis there is never alwaysa process of constants of this ritorialization.
(35:06):
What this means, what territorialization is, when we say we believe, for
example, that the eye simply servesto see, but in other cultures it
turns out that you hear, forexample, one I' m going to
give you a very simple example ofeveryday how we deterritorialize the senses. When
(35:30):
I say you see what I'm telling you. Sure, there'
s one of this ritualization. Ican' t see what you' re
telling me, but why I'm saying it, because I' m
territorializing the view of the flow,of the flow, let' s say
of the light plus I' mseeing the sound. So it' s
a very rare thing, but inother cultures it' s very common.
(35:51):
Of course, of course, ofcourse, yes, then these are constant
processes of territorialization. And that's what it says, for example,
with some activities where I told studentsto feel or feel music watching music.
We can do that. What happensis that we have been taught that the
(36:13):
senses have only one way, theyhave a life that the ear sees and
that the ear listens and that theview let' s say sees, but
let' s say synesthesia. Thatis why it caused great problems and was
considered a disease that were those musicianswho saw, saw, saw sounds or
(36:36):
could simply make sounds with colors.So they said this or that that is
a territorialization that everyone, with training, we could get to make it clear,
of course, of course, andhere I see one, for example.
On the one hand, both thelanguage, for example, the one
that is used good and asks asapologies to the listeners, with the riberyentes,
for speaking so much felden crise,but well we are two masters of
(36:59):
fault and clay is here to defineis almost inevitable. But as from Felden
Crice, we use both metaphor,we use both a symbolic language, not
what sharpens that, because one says, observes and you are with closed eyes,
observes what is happening inside you usingthese let' s say the source
(37:22):
of information, if we say itfrom the neurological point of view, because
it is the perception, the ownexception that allows me, the interception that
allows me to build this that Iam going to. Let' s say
I' m working on myself,on my self, on my own identity.
No, then, exactly then,there it seems to me to go
(37:46):
on, go on, go on, go on, if not, no,
then let' s say what ithas to do with it, like
all these things we use and thenlisten to what you feel. Listen to
how you feel. Imagine, watchwith your eyes closed what is happening within
you So, all the time weare using all our systems that gives us
(38:08):
information more inside than outside, becausewith my eyes closed I am listening to
what is happening within me, truethrough an information of my own, exceptional
and perceptive. That' s notwhat you' re giving me. This
then and it' s very powerful. That' s what you say,
(38:30):
because it' s precisely the exactterritorialization and it' s taking us to
other points. That' s whyit' s supremely valuable. And another
thing we' ve also touched isthat there' s movement with hands,
that' s something that' salso interesting within differential relationships. I call
(38:52):
among the bodies what happens, whichis something that happens in Fellin crasi again
we talk about Happy and what apity that we are the same talking about
fellences. But happy clear is verypowerful in this thesis, precisely because when
we talk about the aptyptic, whatthe hands do, what I can feel
with my hands, when I doan if an emotional integration, I am
(39:13):
not talking to the other. Iam starting a conversation from touch, and
that conversation is generating a differential relationship, where the two bodies are composing and
generating something powerful new, where alreadythe semiotic is not the language, but
the body. How those two bodiesare dancing and generating a new being because
(39:38):
they' re composing. So itlooks like Felding Cras and they were thinking
about the same thing. But whatFelden Krisch did was land it itself and
let' s say land some partof the thought of les and thorny.
But the interesting thing is that thataptic relationship is to move with each other.
(40:05):
It is a very powerful one whenit comes to complementing and understanding the
difference. And there you end upwith this word I already wanted to take.
And it' s the difference.Let' s say, because,
for example, when a person doesnot have the ability to see what he
can do with the ears with touch, it is a wonderful thing, or
(40:30):
the person who cannot hear know thathe can also hear through his hands,
through vibration, through what his bodyperceives. Yes, then, that'
s also a way to expand andunderstand that not if we lack a sense,
we can, we have the possibility, the potential, the ability to
(40:55):
say develop others in a way thatcan perceive the world exactly. So,
well, let' s just saythat it would come up with this whole
disability thing. The difference is morethan disability, the difference that I find
most beautiful. So, then,well, I think it' s very
nice. Well, and we're going to get this about aesthetics,
(41:21):
the everyday and the minor, howyou' re decanting through all this that
we' ve already been looking at, these reflections about education, about aesthetics,
about somatics, about the body.Obviously, it goes through all of
this, how it appears and whatit is as presentations. Well, let
' s say the everyday thing,which has been glimpsed as a repetition,
(41:46):
as a repetition, but really,what happens that the actual repetitions nochisten.
There are repetitions. Every daily lifeis a different repetition, because we are
not the same and we are notthe same. And what happens is that
when we turn off our senses,those daily repetitions become static, they are
(42:07):
not dynamic. So, precisely therepetition, the minor everyday aesthetic, refers
to a completely differentiated, completely differentiateddailyity, which is hidden within that majority
that we cannot say understand why oursensitive listening is off and that is why
(42:31):
the everyday seems completely devoid of importance. Therefore the pedagogy of difference moves within
everyday life, within the smallest andwithin the appreciation of difference as a differential
repetition. So, then that's valuable, because what happens is that
(42:55):
we realize that everyday life for usis what this is no longer because it
' s boring, but it's a lie, because that sensitive listening
has turned us off, which makesus understand the opportidianity as a differentiated,
dynamic repetition that builds and builds fromthe presence of other bodies and with my
(43:16):
body, which is generating precisely adifferential relationship similar to that we do when
we dance with the other that wedon' t communicate with, but we
simply modulate one with respect to thestep of the other. And how interesting
to understand from there, like thatrepetitions, that repetitions, that is,
(43:37):
that the everyday, that which yousay the sensitive listening, has disappeared by
automatism. No, I mean,obviously we learn to do things automatically,
because it' s the brain andnervous system, because it would be impossible
to survive if we were attentive toeverything we do. No, but I
(43:58):
think there' s something interesting abouthow we maintain sensitivity. I love this
word sensitive listening, which is whatwe also develop not as a teacher,
not being able to hear this,which is invisible to the eyes. Not
like going to the prince as theinvisible, what' s obvious? Also
(44:21):
taking words from Felden, grow thisthat is elusive in the eyes, not
that it is obvious, but thatwe do not see it yes, then
it seems to me that it isvery powerful to be able to rescue within
our automatic daily life. But wherewe can be more attentive to what we
(44:45):
do every day, because you mentionone thing that I think is very important
to you. That' s whatI tell students a lot and it'
s you before you start class,when you finish the house, and you
' re not the same anymore,either good or. But something, something
happens in class, something happens inthis conversation. I' m already leaving
(45:07):
today with a lot of things thatI' ve talked to you about and
that we talked about before, thatclarify me and allow me, as well
as seeing different things. Not then, I am no longer the same,
but when I allow myself to feelthat every day, every experience I have,
(45:28):
every conversation I have, every contact, every walk around here in the
center, no matter how it transformsme. I think that' s like
what life is all about. No, not exactly that, then, because
that is precisely what is powerful aboutthis situation. It' s not being
(45:52):
able to understand what, and thatthe difference that difference and come back again
forgives that I focus a little biton education, is that what these denominations
of lgtaviqu more than lately arise that' s real. We believe that this
is a way of accepting the differencein their lies. When I call it
something, what I want is totreat you with a name to see it
(46:15):
not similar to what I am.In other words, it would be enough
to understand the difference in order notto name anything and accept its value.
Sure, and it' s gotto do with this one. Let'
s say as the coherence that wehave between what we say, if we
do it and you can say ahyes clearly, I don' t know
(46:37):
how the disability that it is canbe what I can have the closest.
I do, but if in myaction I am not having a different way
of being or accepting, it hasno value. That' s how I
call it, so, give ita name and I think it' s
very interesting. That' s itI have a very big criticism of the
(47:00):
inclusion policies that are being made lately, because inclusion policies Who I include towards
the center, who is the center, or who has the right to better
include. That is one of thequestions. It seems to me that inclusion
is always like a double- edgedtool that more than you want is like
you who are different from me,that is, the difference seen from that
(47:22):
point of view of identity. I' m going to get you close to
me to see if he can beequal. It' s like the idea
of inclusion to me, and that' s why those policies make me sound.
Of course, of course, ofcourse, everything has to do with
the intention there is and somehow.But again, going back as usual,
(47:43):
what do I do in everyday life, what do I do? In everyday
life, what is my expression andhow my body manifests itself when I see
a different person. True as soonas I see a transvestite person, when
I see a person with some majorphysical disability, yes, what, what
is it that I' m reallyexparing with my body, not and how
(48:07):
I can handle it. Well,I' d like to, before we
close, let' s do alittle session with an activity here of self
- consciousness and if you want torun it yourself so you can decant a
little what we' ve talked aboutand then we shut down, the program
(48:37):
seems to you to take care of. The body is the space created to
give you some ways to be betterin your body through conscious movement. Note
how small changes in attention provide transformationsin your movement, in daily life and
your feeling of well- being,well, ready well, then let'
(49:08):
s try to listen a little bitwith hands, which is one of the
issues that interests me most now.Then just turn off and let' s
try to turn off the other senses. Simply use the palm that best suits
your right or left and try toplace it on your chest and place it
(49:30):
on your chest anywhere that catches yourattention and there just let the palm start
reacting to any movement that happens onyour chest. Maybe you' ll start
listening to some rhythmic or rhythmic expansionIt doesn' t matter. Just bring
(49:55):
attention to the dove And now imaginethat that palm goes through the chest and
gets more internal, it goes throughprecisely ribs or sternum according to where you
have it and you start listening.The heart is a papitar that may be
(50:24):
strong, weak, constant, aconstant no matter what. Now feel the
internal temperature. Don' t juststick with the surface of the skin,
but carry that palm further inside,as if your skin were a gilatin that
(50:52):
you can go through and see whatcolor is dark there is clear, what
temperature you can, let' ssay perceive between the inside and the outside.
(51:20):
What a difference it is. Nowmove your palm, which is no
longer outside, but inside your body, to the opposite side, to the
left or to the right, andfeel each of those structures that you already
(51:40):
know from the anatomical point of view, or just imagine that you can find
inside which texture, what is thetemperature? It' s sticky, wet
(52:07):
dry and to the other side toobserve what changes can you find? He
initially feels how his chest moves.There is some movement, now some sound,
(52:29):
increases or decreases that sound. Ifyou wanted to surround your lungs or
that lung where you are, beit left or right, what that texture
would look like. Imagine that you' re already inside the skin, you
(52:54):
' ve already broken that limit,you' re already on the inside and
the extension of your palm decreases asthe space in the bull increases. Now
(53:32):
pass or take your palm anywhere,be the abdomen higher in your chest wherever
you want, but observe your changesin texture. Now it is stronger,
harder, softer, colder than youhear for a moment rest low hands or
(54:15):
hand and compare your hand you heardwith the hand you didn' t hear.
What' s the difference between oneand the other? She' s
(54:37):
more awake, warmer, what's the difference between one and the other.
It was activated more on one sidethan on the other, one palm
than on the other. Thank you. This is a way that I use
(55:05):
for the hands to begin to be, say, carried beyond their tactile experience,
but to start listening, to seewhy I tell them what it looks
like inside dark or good end.And it' s interesting to give another
(55:29):
meaning to touch. I loved lackof vich I had never done in a
yes experience and loved very good thinkingwith the body, understanding the relationships between
art, body and movement. Well, then, Juanta, I saw so
(55:58):
many thanks, so many congratulations onthis text. You have to read it
to understand more everything that you proposedto us today in this conversation. And,
well, it goes on now,after this man David, after this
publication. Well, let' ssay I want to continue to investigate the
(56:23):
issue of performance and body as aninstrument of an instrument in the good sense
of generating, say aesthetic, ethicaland political changes that I find to be
an interesting supergrant and let' ssay carrying the Felden grows as an indispensable
(56:44):
tool within the somatic bus, withinthe assessment of difference. It seems to
me that it was magnificent to linkit within the university curriculum and I think
that one of the things that Iam proposing right now is precisely to open
up a master' s degree atthe university where I am, which focuses
(57:06):
a lot on omatic pedagogies, withinobviously also the traditional normal pedagogies, but
which have a high somatic component inthose. We are working ah no well,
then many successes. Juanta says ifsomeone suddenly wants to contact you where
what phone or email. Oh,sure, look. My phone number is
three hundred twenty eight hundred thirty-seven sixty- five twenty- three and
(57:31):
my mail is John Rojas Arroba,John n Corpas edu co ready. Well,
so many successes. I think we' re going the same way in
the rosary. Also many years agowe are trying to include this somatic line
and we have been strengthening it veryclosely related to the emotional issue, but
(57:52):
today with the formation in ethical values, in ethics. But, well,
just like we' ve made thispath of asomatic lucranating. Similarly, Javeriana
University does not have a very strongenzomatic line in performing arts training. Well,
then I think that as universities,we' re doing a lot of
things, because we' re lookinglike we' re already worried about why,
(58:16):
because the body disappeared from formation.And because we have to rescue,
that is, understand that we arebody, that we are body, that
we are in this life, thestruggle is really to put it somatic in
those fields where the subject matter doesnot weigh, for example, in the
engineering. Yeah, yeah, andthat kind of thing, because the engineer
thinks he doesn' t work withbody, yeah, of course, that
(58:38):
' s, like, he workswith materials. And because let' s
say within music, within dance,within fine therapy, good end. It
' s very common to put thisin the fight, even in medicine.
It' s coming up a littlebit. That' s why it'
s complex. Oh good dual daby. Thank you so much for this conversation.
(59:04):
It really nourishes me a lot Ilearned a lot and good. I
also hope that our listeners have otherelements of reflection there. Many, many
thanks, many thanks to you victoryThank you for the invitation. Well,
then we have reached the end ofour program and well remember that we are
found through our social networks, onFacebook, on Instagram, on YouTube,
(59:28):
like Rosario Radio, that the programmingof the Broadcaster finds it in triple double
point or Rosario Radio dot ceo.Thank you Nelson for always being there.
I' m watching this show gothe best way. Thanks to Mario Castro,
director of the Issue, And wellVictoria Molina spoke to them and good
(59:50):
to me they can also find mewriting if they want information on Info Arroba.
Victoria Molina dot ceo. Well,I invite you to. I invite
you to continue with the dramatic programmingof the Issue and we hear each other
in a forthcoming programme. Until soonhe ends a space where he knew about
(01:00:14):
body- mind relationships and understood thepotential, wisdom, and intelligence of the
human body. One hour with theradio show of the physiotherapy program of the
University of Rosario. Thinking about thebody, come and discover everything that can
be done, learned and felt fromthe consciousness of living in motion. See
(01:00:35):
you soon, this was thinking withthe body.
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