July 26, 2024 • 60 mins
En este programa, contamos con la presencia de León David Cobo Estrada, con quien conversamos sobre el significado de "la escucha". León David, músico y magíster en Arte Sonoro, nos guía a través de su recorrido para afinar su percepción de la escucha hacia sí mismo, los demás y el territorio. Nos comparte elementos de paisajes sonoros, arrullos y cantos provenientes de su trabajo con comunidades indígenas de diferentes partes del país. Disfruta la experiencia de escuchar con todo tu ser.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
It initiates a space to know aboutrelationships physically and understand the potential, wisdom
and intelligence of the human body.Connect an hour with the radio show of
the physiotherapy program of the University ofRosario, thinking with the body see and
discover everything that can be done,learned and felt from the consciousness of living
(00:25):
in motion. Welcome, this is, thinking with the body, the crow
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welcome, welcome to the program,thinking with the body space of the physiotherapy
program of the University of Rosario,from the microphones of the institutional station Rosario
Radio, I send a warm greetingto all and all our good cyber listeners.
For me it is always a matterof gratitude to be able to carry
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out a new program and to havethe presence of each person who, from
his space and with his practices indaily life, contributes so that we are
better human beings and have a morejust and peaceful society. I was just
listening to Facundo Cabral' s song. Today is a day to give thanks.
Then I loved it and it cameas if it was very inspired by
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my meeting here with today' sguest. Well in the section the word
to awaken consciousness. We won't, we won' t read,
we' ll hear a soundscape ofthe second- class Kamsha community and Putumayo.
This allows us as ourselves, itserves as a preamble to the topic
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that we will discuss today with ourguest, Leon David Cobo Estrada, with
whom we will talk about listening inthe section, taking care of the body
and movement. Leon David also bringsus another soundscape that will also allow us
to connect with what listening means.Well, remember that you are listening to
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us on our website www Urosario radioseo, as well as on broadcast platforms
like Radio Garden. Likewise, ifyou want to connect with us on social
networks, you are not like RosarioRadio on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube.
In addition, on the web pagew Rosario radio seo find the programming of
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the station. If you are latefor this broadcast or if you miss any
of the programs, remember that thisand all programs are on Spreaker, Spotify
and Apple Podcast platforms. Well,thank you very much to those who always
listen to the show. We haven' t broadcast a program for several days,
(03:07):
but, well, there' svery good news today and it'
s that we' re doing sixyears broadcasting programs then in July, for
real, for me too, it' s a cause of great joy to
be able to continue to count onthis space. And well, I invite
you and I invite you to keeplistening, to send me your comments.
(03:28):
It is always very nice to seethat from parts I least believe I are
listening to the good and good programand remember that comments can make them to
me. Get to my email.Victoria dot Molina throws a rosary, dot
edu dot seo good. My thanksto Mario Crater Castro, who he is
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today is in the Master Control andis the director of the station. I
am Victoria Molina, I am aphysiotherapist, teacher of the physiotherapy program Maestra
Meto Felicris and teacher also of ChileSpace and good invite them. I invite
you to stay with this program thinkingwith your body, a program that seeks
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an integral look at all of ourbeing welcomed, welcome the word to awaken
consciousness. In this section we carryout a reading that allows us to introduce
the topic that we are going todeal with with the guest. Prepare for
moments of reflection and tranquility. Enjoythese moments. Well, as I was
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saying a moment ago, let's hear a Sonoro landscape that was recorded
in the hydraulics San Jose and inthe shagra of the vereda tama Boy of
the Second Doy Valley. The performanceis by Wilson Chindoy in the hype and
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the songs are by the grandmothers RosaSansa Joy and María Luisa San Sajoy.
So let' s listen to thislandscape are what brings us today long dadic
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kakchk chk ket kotze, kako obsenacouple nangomima already with hobshena couple in angomiamata,
cost, gocset caromnata, cos nskeane kekchacha, chakotzoam cochacha, chako
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jomana, se jachakinangomia, chak hmana, se javier chagenangomia, esta kche car,
esta kcs eta car het metantramiana,traves chan o, hinche tan,
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tramiana, atrachachar esta cochinata godzim estagochemanta cochin ya con hohina couple nangomia ya
ya con hohina couple, nangomata,goze coita, car, esta cochina,
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esta gochita cochina You are listening,thinking with the body the human being as
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a whole. In this section weshare with us their experience and knowledge people
who live and assume the human beingas unity with the whole understand new practical
relationships and approaches that allow us toadvance in a better co- understanding of
us as human beings. Well,after listening to this beautiful landscape in gold,
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so it connects us to the deepestpart of our being that connects us
with listening precisely to connect us withourselves. Then I welcome Leon David.
Leon David, thank you so muchfor accepting the invitation. Thank you so
much, Vicky, for inviting meto your show. Well, very honored
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Leon David in the impressive beautiful careerwe are going to be talking about around
the course of the Bueno program andallow me, therefore, to introduce Leon
David Cobbo you are a musician ofthe Pontifical Javillana University. Master' s
Degree in Zonology Master' s Degreein Sonoro Art from the University of Barcelona.
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He was in charge of the documentaryof the expedition television Sonora and well,
there are many other things that LeonDavid has worked, but well,
I' m going to leave itthere and I just want to start talking
to you Leon about what this meaningof listening to how, because obviously you
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' re a musician and the entrymusician, as we were right now,
having a coffee here at the University, your same perception of sound, of
silence, of what was happening.But this sensitivity from where you feel it
appears has accompanied you all your life. There was a click in life that
connected you to this. There issomething in that life story that you want
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to share with us, because Imust say that from a very young age
I started studying true music and hada musical formation in the context of classical
music. Universities really have very littleconcern about the subject of listening. I
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didn' t think about listening andwhat it means, for example, space
in relation to listening to sound.I was just thinking about music. No,
but I did start to be interestedin this sound thing, which is
rather an element of a concept thatembraces music and other universes. Let'
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s say it contains sound, itcontains music, but it also contains a
number of other elements. So,I would say that the moment when I
started to worry about listening was whenI started working at the Ministry of Culture,
in the direction of Childhood and Youth. Over there, in the year
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ninety- eight, surely when Iwas studying composition, I also began to
investigate what listening means. And thatand it seems that it is not a
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way of universities or training centers.Looks like they don' t take this
listening into account. They deal morewith technical issues. Of course, listening
is transverse. One speaks of historicalperiods, there are very particular ways to
listen. Not then, let's say. One would think that the
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musician listens in a very particular way, but it is not always taken into
account and given the importance it shouldhave. Then it was with the children,
in the erection of childhood and youththat I began to wonder for the
serious listening, for how we listen, for how we relate from listening,
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and the boys and girls at thattime were teachers to me. Let'
s say that that' s whenI started to research, explore, experiment
with them and ask myself, becausemore and more things in relation to sound
and the way we relate to theenvironment and how we explore the environment from
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listening. Well, I didn't say a super important thing in your
presentation, because if you' rea composer, no, and how is
this then to open up like thesetimes and spaces so that that ability to
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listen will appear in us. No, because that' s the invitation you
make. Not with this listening inall these different contexts in which you have
worked, not with indigenous people likewhat we saw right now this sound landscape
but also with the Truth Commission,well, in different, in different spaces,
in the Ministry of Culture, then, how it is this, how
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it is to open that space sothat we really listen, because, of
course, you put a song andlisten to it. Let' s put
it this way, right, butit' s a different listener, it
' s a deep listener, it' s a listener of myself, also
not of myself. So how's that, because that' s it.
That question is very complex. Notbasically my work has to do with
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childhood, because it' s childhood, and early childhood where it' s
built, let' s say thathearing memory. No and all that you
can generate there, all the habits, the customs that you can generate in
those first years of life, ifthey are an important way to relate one
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to life from then on, thenwe listen since we are in the exact
womb of the mother. It's the first sense we' ve ever
had. No, he' snot the first. Not the first.
It' s touch. It's worth the tacte. But, but
it' s very important that atfour weeks the ears start to form.
And it is if our first relationshipwith the outside world true, from what
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a child is born and already hearsthe bell of his mother' s voice,
these sounds and these universes do notexpand the measure that the child is
growing. The girl then is nolonger the sounds of the home, but
the sounds of the neighborhood, thesounds of the city. Right. And
it is at that moment that wecan generate the habits to listen, that
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is, listen. If you don' t practice, you miss listening.
It' s like a muscle.You have to train then, from those
early years, because you have totake a moment to listen, a moment
to close your eyes and discover theenvironment in which you are living and realize
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the number of elements that make itup. On the other hand, listening
is a cultural construction. We heardifferent here in Colombia, how they surely
listen in Tibet to how they listenin some African country, to how they
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listen in some Pacific island. Solet' s say that our environments configure
some universes, sound to which werelate. True, and that is how
we are discovering the world now,at this moment, because we are experiencing
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a crisis in listening. The screens, the screens of the cell phones,
the computers of the televisions are creatingas a hegemony and we hear less and
less and are increasingly exposed to visualstimuli. Then listening also takes time.
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Listening is a way of contemplation,so to speak, and at this moment
to contemplate, to close your eyes, to listen to the sound landscapes because
that becomes almost a subversive act,because now let us say in the logics
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of the market economy, because tolisten is to waste time. Yes,
then almost that the act of listeningbecomes a revolutionary act today, because when
I hear it I stop being productive. Let' s say paraphrasing Jin chul
Han. So in this listening thing, well they show up. These sound
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landscapes and I would like to,and how to start talking a little bit
about this work that you have donein recent years, which has to do
with the Truth Commission, working withex- combatants, the other, with
all this work, this tour thatyou did throughout the Colombian geography, with
the different indigenous communities. Then Iwish we could talk a little bit about
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these two elements. For now andwell, you tell us a little bit
about that experience. The work withindigenous communities was born out of a project
that I did, which I hadthe fortune of privilege to do with sign
Colombia that is called expedition. Sonoralet' s say that' s the
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background. We went to visit thecountry, but there is a precedent before
and perhaps it is important to nameit, because we are talking about the
Ministry of Culture. We did aproject called the Venezuelan collombo bongo of culture
on the Orinoco River. That wasthirty years ago, wow, yeah,
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more or less, not twenty-six years, twenty- six years ago.
It was in the ninety- nine, twenty- seven, twenty-
five years, and that project Iwas very young there for the first time
and discovered the indigenous languages. Let' s say I talk about that background
in the context of the management ofchildhood and Youth, a project in which
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we went with children from all overthe country to tour the Orinoco River and
to recognize cultural diversity there. Andthere I had my first meeting with indigenous
communities in the context of projects withChildhood. Then comes Sonora expedition, where
I keep doing the same sound expeditionthat I took advantage of to say that
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it was a program that we didwith Teto Campo, with the National University,
with one and a half is Tetomulaó last year. Then tribute to
Teto here, is to tell himthat, because that was a wonderful project
in which he went away populated andI for others to tour the country to
explore the musics, I with theintention of showing it to the girls and
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the boys. Here he comes.There we worked with indigenous Afro communities,
but there we made a documentary withthe Wayús and there it was already a
deepening exploration with the Wayús, wheremusic has a very particular sense for the
word and because the music is systemicallyconnected to all sense relations that occur with
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the word, the sound, thedance, that is, there is a
whole thing hearing and the worldview inrelation to that way of relating with its
surroundings and with its territory. So, I name those to get to the
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project you' re talking about,because these are background records. You almost
always jump to the background, there' s always an accurate, accurate story.
Then I am finishing up more beingin Barcelona and I am invited to
make a proposal to work with indigenouscommunities. At that time, of course,
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I was very sensitive to the themeof soundscape. Then I come to
Colombia to work on that project andthe first community we work with is with
the Kams A. But then thisproject is wonderful because it has a very
particular perspective that is for girls andboys. So, like that theme line
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was always in my career as verypresent And already for me, because childhood
is a commitment. I think this. It must be acknowledged that it was
inherited from my mother Maria Victoria.Estra' s a pedagogue. I think
she' s the one who sowsthat seed for childhood work. So,
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what does listening mean in childhood inthe early years and how do we approach
the sound universes of indigenous communities,taking into account their parenting habits and habits
of belief, because talking about childhood, because that is a very western concept
in indigenous cultures and creates a verybeautiful work. And in relation to the
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methodology of how we will build togetherwith them and with the communities. These,
these inquiries and these commands of rebuildingthe sound universe in each community.
Then, at the hands of thecommunities, always with them and with them,
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we built a form of joint workin which, generously, they shared
their songs, their stories and theirsoundscapes, which are seen from the perspective
of the upbringing of children. Thenthere are ruins, there are soundscapes,
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because the landscape is not very importantto you, not honorscapes. It is
the place, the space where thesound expands, as its molecules through the
jungle of the river of water.Then it is very important to always take
into account the territory where these musicsand these sounds and these ritual practices do
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not develop. And so we havemade a compendium of a work that is
called water, wind and green,which is sound landscapes chants and indigenous stories
for children. This is a projectof the Colombian Institute of Family Welfare,
in which a technical table with theMinistry of Culture participates, the program of
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zero always of the Presidency of theRepublic that now disappeared, this Council of
Childhood and the Automoli CF and manyentities, since they work with Children.
It is a giant team and withthe production of reading foundation we have done
as a collection of sound materials ofso far twenty- three communities in the
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Colombian territory, prioritizing those that havein their language at risk of extinction.
So this means a wonderful opportunity torecognize that listening. It is very interesting,
because it is listening in many ways, it is that the Community listens
to itself for them to decide whatthey want to share with us. So,
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as an intracultural exercise, then comesa recognition of others, of the
other communities among themselves, like thatmulticultural, and then are the communities being
heard by us as in that interculturality, in ways of seeing the world,
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because every language is a world,every language is a way of naming the
world. When a language disappears,a way of seeing and understanding the very
particular world disappears. Then it hasalso been a race against the clock because
languages are in danger of extinction.And they are threatened by many political factors,
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cultural conflict, etcetera. And soit' s this possibility that girls
and boys and their teachers, theirtrainers, listen to that other, listen
to the difference, listen to thatthat puts you in crisis, because this
music puts you in crisis because wehave a very westernized, di- nineteenthic,
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European tonal listening and these other waysof building narratives, musical and sound,
because they don' t correspond withthat ear that and with that classical
listening between quotation marks and the West, and it presents us with other rhythms,
other spaces, other temporalities, othermaterialities, and that' s not
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easy to approach these musics. Inaddition, they are in other languages.
Then they want s s dos daan entire accompaniment. The project is about
creating a pedagogical model in which thereis a lot of freedom to assume these
audios and to allow girls and boys, basically to enrich their perception in their
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early years, create new neural connectionslistening to that richness that is from here,
because it is that we do nothave to leave colloia to see the
thing so impressive that it is thismusic and in what way all those listeners
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that I told you about, whatit means to listen to each other in
the Community, between communities and alreadyamong all Colombians and for the world,
of course, because basically it alsoenriches us and sensitizes us about other sonorous
universes other than mine this path beginseither s or neo exploration of my own
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environment. In other words, thesoundscape is very important beyond the Bora,
in the Amazon. But it alsomatters how my home sounds, how my
neighborhood sounds, whether it' sa bolívar city or a Usaquillo or it
' s the neighborhood in lime andhow my own environment sounds, because it
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' s from the recognition and explorationof my own environment that I come close
to hearing other environments. It isin that, in that discovery and in
that exploration that I, from myspace, approach the other spaces and the
other environments so different from mine.Not sure, and I think it'
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s very powerful there and understand howthere we can see the difference, not
like there are other ways. Whatyou' re saying we haven' t
naturalized a form of music like theonly one we' ve ever heard.
We use what' s that,that' s the music. Yeah,
yeah. And now when I heardyou' re grandmothers singing cha said what
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beauty. I mean, I don' t understand what you' re saying,
but it fills me deeply. It' s not very touching and you
want to say it. I'm going to read a fragment of what
you' re saying. Aha Yama. Stay quiet? The rascal and stay
quiet? Stay quiet? I'll give you breast so you' ll
be quiet? I' ll giveyou breast so you' ll be quiet?
If you fell asleep, would Iknit? If you fell asleep,
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would I knit? Stay quiet?Stay quiet? If God lends you life,
you must learn good things. IfGod lends you your life, will
you learn good things? Stay quiet? It' s amazing everything she'
s telling you. She is atired community grandmother and go to the world
today where tissue is very important andwork too. Then the plough is present
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in all communities, all communities aroundthe world. The world, I mean,
the ullo is, that song canbe beautiful that moms make to sleep
their babies. And that' severything, everything, everywhere. It'
s a human condition thing. Wecame with this one exactly then. That
' s how the kamsa sing,but the cogi sing differently and the choreguaje
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sing from another and the aliens sing. They' ve got another ruckus.
Then I take this opportunity to inviteyou to explore this page of windy and
green water. Digital audio library.Es The page is digital audio library and
cb com There are all the chants, there are all the contexts and pedagogical
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routes and interactive games for girls andboys to listen to our indigenous communities.
It' s so nice to thinkthat from childhood we can understand that there
are other ways. Yes, Ithink it' s one of the ways
we can teach or yes, sothat children, since they' re in
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this growth, understand that there aredifferences. Yes, that there is not
a single hegemonic thing, a singleway to see them, life, the
singing of form and that diversity,that is, to expose girls and boys
and adults. That' s alsoclear, because this is an adult issue.
Of course, also to this tothese sounds, because basically it enriches
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us exactly, enriches us in manyways. It enriches us as human beings.
It enriches us by expanding our hearingmemory, enriching us by making us
aware of these communities that we havehere. It' s just that this
is an impressive wealth. That is, what is here in Colombia is unique,
because then it is we have amusical and sound richness that goes beyond
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what is heard on the radio.Of those spaces and times that the radio
proposes to us are not so limited. No, then, now I'
d tell you that perception has beenreduced to, like, twenty seconds,
ten seconds, and five seconds whenyou' re falling real. So,
these are songs that place us inthe perception of there are twenty- minute
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chants and they are beautiful chants.And then, as perception is reduced to
us, then, somehow, thesemusics are balancing the balance in this way
so agitated and so fast that weend up living. Not good. And
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then let' s say all thiswork you' ve done with indigenous communities.
Let' s just say they endup in this project, we find
out who it is. It doesn' t end, it doesn' t
finish that project. Yeah, yeah, and that started out as a community
and that expanded a book and thencame the second, the third and I
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know more will come. Then.It is a project, also endless,
because it would have to at leastregister them all and it has been ten
years since we started and we wouldhave to see again what now, what
is happening with those communities. Itis like a job never to finish and
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independently that project, I have workedother projects, also with indigenous communities,
doing explorations with other communities. Let' s say I worked with Batuta on
a divine project. A year anda half ago in Puerto Asis, with
the Inga and with the children ofBatuta who, because of the conflict,
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cannot cross the Putumayo River, becausethey are already on the other side,
because armed groups and there is theconflict. And the Singas came and met
the children, they made a verybeautiful meeting to share, to share their
songs, their stories with the childrenof Batuta, and the children of Batuta
shared with them and we created soundinstallations. The choirs sang songs from the
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Singas in a genuine, organic,honest and very enriching exchange for both cultures.
He spoke of culture as urban inport. So if the indigenous cultures
that, despite being there, thesechildren did not know that there were other
children who spoke a language across theriver. So, sometimes in Colombia we
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happen that we are very delimited bythe conflict and we cannot move and we
are less mobile and it is aboutmoving, as this program says, the
movement and generates those connections, thoseenergies. So, I' ve always
been working with communities and projects thatinvolve childhood and I know that also in
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this project that you did with theCommission, the truth was also with children.
We did a project with children withthe Commission at the beginning, when
it was arming We made a meeting, we designed a pedagogical meeting and when
it came out. When the finalreport came out, I was invited to
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make a sound work in relation tothe report by Antioquia, by Cafetero Graba
and the report by Bogotá or Chiand their maps. Then there I did
as a sound installation job. Herein Bogotá I worked with clay pots and
with the idea of giving up thesepainful stories and going somewhere else. Ruby
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' s Father and the report saysin their conclusions that Colombia must be healed
and I worked with that idea ofhealing, with sound landscapes of the territories
that were affected by the conflict,understanding that nature is healing and the sounds
of nature heal That' s becausewe come from nature, That has no
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mesh, no good science. Weended up living in noisy cities. The
organization Muntes de la Salud says thatnoise is one of the main causes of
death due to hearing contamination, becauseit puts the nervous system on the line.
So, thinking about that that natureand the sounds of nature harmonize us,
because we are of nature and theseurban contexts make us sick because we
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are not from here and because alwaysfour walls and right angles will generate,
then, with very complicated texts.To avoid, I worked with soundscapes of
his mumps moor, in the caseof the Bogotá report, his sochi and
his mapáz, and I was therein the moor of his mumps recording the
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water. The sounds of the moorthat are very quiet and those sounds.
We put them in a jar togive some sonorous devices created for the installation
that reproduced these sonorous landscapes and amuisque poem that we also composed for this
installation. Then people go and enteras in a space where the soundscapes and
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the poem propitiate reflection to write onewho wants to heal in, one who
wants to heal in his surroundings,in the country and double that role and
put it one of the vessels andthose empty ones are spiraling. Then we
want to believe that those spirals continueto expand their desires and that they continue
to cook in the clay pots thoseWhat late metaphors those writings of people and
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people end up intervening. That workis for people and for us to think
about healing in Colombia. We needto get rid of each other. Then
the Commission' s report is notwrong when it says that Colombia must be
healed and we must find mechanisms toseek at least reflection on the issue.
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And in Medellin I worked with basketswith the community to see cham also these
baskets arranged in spirals and we werein the Angelino Garzón Guard recording soundscapes and
chants of Jaibaná, which made especiallyfor the installation in Meillín, with very
beautiful healing songs. Also in thisinstallation that is called in Medellin we are
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baskets woven from the same ana plantsand sounds the truth. And in Bogotá
we are called pots made from thesame healthy land and the truth sounds.
That has been like the work withthe Commission, also in relation to listening,
of course, and to these songsthat evoke us, because how this
territory sounded before it was built,this despelot, which was built like bringing
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that, that essence to this timethese two installations were created. Sonoras also
as designed for what we talked aboutat the beginning, generating listening spaces,
spaces of contemplation, spacious is whereit is not the visual, what mobilizes
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us. If you don' tlisten to it and listen to it and
it has to do with ourselves andthe universes we have. Each is different
and listens in relation to its interior. So listening is how, somehow,
we connect with ourselves because what asound means to one or the affections or
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emotions one feels another feels with thesame sound. Then listening challenges us in
some way as individual. Our imaginationalso expands. You hear this thing we
' re doing here on this podcast. People who know how, imagine us,
how we are. So that listeningalso puts you to the act of
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imagination, creativity. Listen looks alot like reading. Also listening is like
reading from the audition. Then workwith boys and girls. It hears power,
all those forms of imagination, ofcreation, of imagining and of seeing
the other and of feeling through sounds, other ways, of understanding the territory,
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of understanding space. How beautiful,how powerful and good, because really,
as a Colombian, I say thankyou for doing a job like this
is true. I think that's what I feel that' s about
making a homeland. There really aren' t so many ways we have to
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rescue who we are. That's not what we said right now with
the coffee. No, there's American coffee now. No, a
red one does things as simple asthat. Nothing is simple like that,
they' re turning around, they' re permeating us and they' re
uprooting us. So, it's not always uprooting that' s because
(42:57):
we' re displaced well, obviously, so many Colombians who' ve had
that. But there is also somuch way of uprooting from language, not
from what we hear, from whatwe read, from what we see.
Yeah, so, having a littlewhile ago I brought him in was in
the house and showed us. ThenI said that it is this beauty that
(43:17):
you travel, because this is totravel the country, not to travel the
territories. And in this way Iwould say so, so beautiful and so
respectful of each other. Not becauseyou don' t go as the expert,
(43:37):
not that he has all this trainingthat you carry, obviously, you
carry your expertise, but listening tothe other, yes, before that you
had the idea that the researcher wentand drew an extract, an extractivist thing,
and he gave his own idea ofwhat that was exactly like his interpretation.
(43:58):
Now let us say, at thistime, that this concept has been
completely changed and the idea of thejoint construction of the conversation with the other
and with the other and the concertationof the dialogue is more common. So
what you end up doing is acollective creation, an exchange in which,
(44:19):
then, absolutely respectful and also verycareful, because you do a concerted work
with a methodology that takes into account, of course, the communities and their
voice and their word and their decisionsfor any decision that is made. Not
(44:44):
then do I think that' slike a very important change of perspective,
the chest at work and I don' t know how to make fifty years.
That' ll probably get better.No, yes, that relationship.
What' s there, there's enough to go closing, because we
' re going to listen to othersoundscapes this one in some community, something
(45:09):
they would have told you. Thisdoes not come out this ruckus, for
example, it comes out or thischant to the chakra or this chant to
the water. Well, I don' t know that they would have told
you this isn' t ours andwe' re not sharing it. I
think that in their surely, whenthey talk, there are already cool emotions.
Others don' t understand anything fromhere. They' ve already decided
(45:30):
that it' s coming out andthat it' s not coming out.
What I have noticed is that theyconsult a lot, what should be done
and what not. Then they receiveas the information they need to receive and
make their decisions. No, ofcourse, when never, we never get
(45:52):
a microphone out before we have madeeverything, if we have talked, if
we have made agreements and, ofcourse, sometimes they also decide that this
is better. No, or thatthis is something they hadn' t thought
of. So those decisions are veryimportant, because it also makes them talk
(46:17):
about their music and what they wantto do and what they don' t
want to do. And that's a very important conversation for them.
Of course it' s nice torespect those word circles. Not as a
word they speak, Yes around thecoca or around its sacred plants, Yes,
around everything, because everything has,everything makes sense, everything is integrated.
(46:45):
What is then, we, inthe West, have all fractions and
they make musics and sounds and theirpractices are functional. Musicology speaks of aesthetic
music and functional music. Aesthetic musicthat has an audience, that has an
(47:09):
audience and that is played in scenarios, etcetera. Functional music is what serves
and works for something, because,to put it this way in simple terms
and indigenous music has that functional character. It sings to make the harvest good.
It sings for the child to beborn well. It sings so that
to thank the water. It issung forever with a sense that works in
(47:35):
relation to a particular need or tosomething. Well, Leon, David,
you' ve chosen a few tickets. Sounds like finishing the show. Yeah,
yeah, and I' d likeyou to tell us who they'
re from a little bit of thecontext of this that we' re going
to hear. Now for also thenbefore, before I finish, I want
(48:01):
to leave a perfect phrase of Jorgela Rosa, which I love that says
he listens. You' re willingto hear what you don' t know,
what you don' t want,what you don' t need?
One is willing to lose foot andlet himself lie down and drag by what
comes to meet him. One iswilling to transform into an unknown direction.
(48:27):
Jorge la Rosa. Let' shear Kalama' s song from the Kogi
community to protect the seeds. Itis a song that has a translation also
cortitica and is a song for foodsovereignty. Good wow w or it'
(51:01):
s not a squeaky street. Speakthe reaction the one that follows from the
beginning that they left us for thatsong about Kolama is the food sovereignty so
(51:21):
that they protect themselves, preserve them, that they produce well the harvest seeds,
Auyama Pope, then does what tothe mamos, to the dance of
(51:42):
the singing of the baptism of theseeds. We always come singing that.
Then we just heard the song ofwhich one goes to protect the seed interpreted
in the voice by Manuel in Kimacouand the drummer Manuel Tingula Barros, who
does the free translation Fernando. Andnow let' s hear from the community
(52:08):
yu singing for good luck with poorchapa, cha cha cha cha cha,
(53:07):
black drink chala, don pegre beand chala chana chala. I get a
(53:44):
prayer called for good luck. Ashe is a very very clean person,
very pretty, very beautiful, verytender. All that. That is why
that prayer is said, yes,for here there is every good faith,
a good behavior for him, sothat not so that they will not be
(54:05):
harmed. Yes and another that hesaid that' s what stars come out
in the morning that light up likeme was a flashlight. Yes, and
they are also for good luck,so that there is not every evil of
people. That is why it iscalled a personal prayer for oneself so as
not to affect the problem. That' s when I have a problem with
(54:28):
someone else, someone else, someoneelse or another neighbor. Yes, for
one or all of a sudden tosome war where many haikas, or I
put in a retainer of any non- legal legal groups so that they are
respected that they cannot leave quietly.That' s all. This is a
(54:49):
song by Grandpa Arturo Rodríguez and hewants to do the translation of his son,
Felipe Rodríguez, and it is thesummary of what we are talking about.
Not that is so lige of hissongs at this time, not in
ancestral songs for good luck, Butat this moment, if there is an
illegal retention you also sing yes,that is to say that it has that
(55:10):
validity, that validity and in thatway let us say now the contemporaneity of
being integrated into your life Daily asthey bring all their all that they are
precisely for the moment they are living. No, I don' t mean
that. I like that when wesometimes think of acestrality, we think that
(55:30):
we have to go back centuries.This, this is something that is completely
alive, functional and that these practicesare also being learned by girls and boys
in communities, and that is whyit is so important to be able to
spread this beauty and be able tokeep registering it. I think it'
(55:54):
s wonderful, well, we've come to the end of the program
and I' d like, beforewe say goodbye, leondavid, to tell
us good where we can find allthis information. The other day we'
ve been checking your website and it' s endless. Then where can it
be if someone is interested and wantsto write to you, how they can
(56:15):
communicate with you. On my pageis called ideas that sound like there are
all my projects. This particular projectis also on my page, but the
in direct esw Digital Library co Thereon my page are all projects with indigenous
communities with links. All my contactsare also there on Facebook, Instagram,
(56:40):
Leon David co and to my emailLeón co Rog Email if you are interested,
email com if you are interested tocontinue talking to me for whatever it
is there. I' m good, really. Thank you so much.
(57:00):
I repeat, like thanks. AgainI am very moved as a real Colombian,
to be able to give the voiceto those who have a voice also
to those who have been silent becauseof these forms that have been privileged in
(57:22):
our country, and to be ableto understand that we have this, that
we are indigenous, that there isan indigenous root. We sometimes think we
' re very European, I don' t know where from. Well,
of course, we have a Europeanroot, but we also have a very
important indigenous root. And feel thatway again. It seems to me that
(57:45):
it' s me when I closemy eyes and those skulls and God like
I feel one that resounds at hisheart, like it' s the heart
that tunes in there all over mybody. I felt like it was tuned
from my heart, it' snot from my mind thinking it was my
heart that was really tuned. Ithank you infinitely, because thank you,
(58:07):
Vicky, for that invitation and forthose beautiful words. It is very important
to give us time to listen,to listen to the world, to listen.
Going out into the street and listeningand listening is somehow also giving us
a space for contemplation and listening istheir perssive and listening is revolutionary in this
(58:29):
time of productivity. I insist,when we listen we have the possibility to
relate in another way to the environmentand to ourselves. Well, and that
' s one way to build thepass, the peace that has so many
things. Well, then, wehave reached the end of our program by
(58:52):
thinking with the body about the radioshow of the physiotherapy program of the University
of Rosario. And, well,on this occasion, with this great composer
musician and who has done all thiswork Leon David Co And well, remember
that you can follow us on oursocial networks, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube,
like Rosario Radio and that podcasts are, therefore, hosted on the platforms
(59:15):
Spreaker, Spotify and Radio Garden.And well, thank you very much Nelson,
who in the end came to joinus in master control and Mario Castro,
director of the station, and wellyou follow us and see us,
we hear each other on a nextchance. Good morning, good afternoon to
(59:37):
all cyber- hearers. He endsa space where he learned about body-
mind relationships and understood the potential,wisdom and intelligence of the human body for
an hour with the radio show ofthe physiotherapy program of the University of Rosario.
Thinking about the body come and discovereverything that can be done, learned
(01:00:00):
and felt from the consciousness of livingin motion. See you soon, this
was thinking with the body.
It initiates a space to know aboutrelationships physically and understand the potential, wisdom
and intelligence of the human body.Connect an hour with the radio show of
the physiotherapy program of the University ofRosario, thinking with the body see and
discover everything that can be done,learned and felt from the consciousness of living
(00:25):
in motion. Welcome, this is, thinking with the body, the crow
(00:58):
welcome, welcome to the program,thinking with the body space of the physiotherapy
program of the University of Rosario,from the microphones of the institutional station Rosario
Radio, I send a warm greetingto all and all our good cyber listeners.
For me it is always a matterof gratitude to be able to carry
(01:18):
out a new program and to havethe presence of each person who, from
his space and with his practices indaily life, contributes so that we are
better human beings and have a morejust and peaceful society. I was just
listening to Facundo Cabral' s song. Today is a day to give thanks.
Then I loved it and it cameas if it was very inspired by
(01:41):
my meeting here with today' sguest. Well in the section the word
to awaken consciousness. We won't, we won' t read,
we' ll hear a soundscape ofthe second- class Kamsha community and Putumayo.
This allows us as ourselves, itserves as a preamble to the topic
(02:02):
that we will discuss today with ourguest, Leon David Cobo Estrada, with
whom we will talk about listening inthe section, taking care of the body
and movement. Leon David also bringsus another soundscape that will also allow us
to connect with what listening means.Well, remember that you are listening to
(02:24):
us on our website www Urosario radioseo, as well as on broadcast platforms
like Radio Garden. Likewise, ifyou want to connect with us on social
networks, you are not like RosarioRadio on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube.
In addition, on the web pagew Rosario radio seo find the programming of
(02:47):
the station. If you are latefor this broadcast or if you miss any
of the programs, remember that thisand all programs are on Spreaker, Spotify
and Apple Podcast platforms. Well,thank you very much to those who always
listen to the show. We haven' t broadcast a program for several days,
(03:07):
but, well, there' svery good news today and it'
s that we' re doing sixyears broadcasting programs then in July, for
real, for me too, it' s a cause of great joy to
be able to continue to count onthis space. And well, I invite
you and I invite you to keeplistening, to send me your comments.
(03:28):
It is always very nice to seethat from parts I least believe I are
listening to the good and good programand remember that comments can make them to
me. Get to my email.Victoria dot Molina throws a rosary, dot
edu dot seo good. My thanksto Mario Crater Castro, who he is
(03:49):
today is in the Master Control andis the director of the station. I
am Victoria Molina, I am aphysiotherapist, teacher of the physiotherapy program Maestra
Meto Felicris and teacher also of ChileSpace and good invite them. I invite
you to stay with this program thinkingwith your body, a program that seeks
(04:10):
an integral look at all of ourbeing welcomed, welcome the word to awaken
consciousness. In this section we carryout a reading that allows us to introduce
the topic that we are going todeal with with the guest. Prepare for
moments of reflection and tranquility. Enjoythese moments. Well, as I was
(04:46):
saying a moment ago, let's hear a Sonoro landscape that was recorded
in the hydraulics San Jose and inthe shagra of the vereda tama Boy of
the Second Doy Valley. The performanceis by Wilson Chindoy in the hype and
(05:06):
the songs are by the grandmothers RosaSansa Joy and María Luisa San Sajoy.
So let' s listen to thislandscape are what brings us today long dadic
(07:01):
kakchk chk ket kotze, kako obsenacouple nangomima already with hobshena couple in angomiamata,
cost, gocset caromnata, cos nskeane kekchacha, chakotzoam cochacha, chako
(07:39):
jomana, se jachakinangomia, chak hmana, se javier chagenangomia, esta kche car,
esta kcs eta car het metantramiana,traves chan o, hinche tan,
(07:59):
tramiana, atrachachar esta cochinata godzim estagochemanta cochin ya con hohina couple nangomia ya
ya con hohina couple, nangomata,goze coita, car, esta cochina,
(08:28):
esta gochita cochina You are listening,thinking with the body the human being as
(09:43):
a whole. In this section weshare with us their experience and knowledge people
who live and assume the human beingas unity with the whole understand new practical
relationships and approaches that allow us toadvance in a better co- understanding of
us as human beings. Well,after listening to this beautiful landscape in gold,
(10:11):
so it connects us to the deepestpart of our being that connects us
with listening precisely to connect us withourselves. Then I welcome Leon David.
Leon David, thank you so muchfor accepting the invitation. Thank you so
much, Vicky, for inviting meto your show. Well, very honored
(10:33):
Leon David in the impressive beautiful careerwe are going to be talking about around
the course of the Bueno program andallow me, therefore, to introduce Leon
David Cobbo you are a musician ofthe Pontifical Javillana University. Master' s
Degree in Zonology Master' s Degreein Sonoro Art from the University of Barcelona.
(10:56):
He was in charge of the documentaryof the expedition television Sonora and well,
there are many other things that LeonDavid has worked, but well,
I' m going to leave itthere and I just want to start talking
to you Leon about what this meaningof listening to how, because obviously you
(11:20):
' re a musician and the entrymusician, as we were right now,
having a coffee here at the University, your same perception of sound, of
silence, of what was happening.But this sensitivity from where you feel it
appears has accompanied you all your life. There was a click in life that
connected you to this. There issomething in that life story that you want
(11:41):
to share with us, because Imust say that from a very young age
I started studying true music and hada musical formation in the context of classical
music. Universities really have very littleconcern about the subject of listening. I
(12:07):
didn' t think about listening andwhat it means, for example, space
in relation to listening to sound.I was just thinking about music. No,
but I did start to be interestedin this sound thing, which is
rather an element of a concept thatembraces music and other universes. Let'
(12:39):
s say it contains sound, itcontains music, but it also contains a
number of other elements. So,I would say that the moment when I
started to worry about listening was whenI started working at the Ministry of Culture,
in the direction of Childhood and Youth. Over there, in the year
(13:00):
ninety- eight, surely when Iwas studying composition, I also began to
investigate what listening means. And thatand it seems that it is not a
(13:22):
way of universities or training centers.Looks like they don' t take this
listening into account. They deal morewith technical issues. Of course, listening
is transverse. One speaks of historicalperiods, there are very particular ways to
listen. Not then, let's say. One would think that the
(13:43):
musician listens in a very particular way, but it is not always taken into
account and given the importance it shouldhave. Then it was with the children,
in the erection of childhood and youththat I began to wonder for the
serious listening, for how we listen, for how we relate from listening,
(14:07):
and the boys and girls at thattime were teachers to me. Let'
s say that that' s whenI started to research, explore, experiment
with them and ask myself, becausemore and more things in relation to sound
and the way we relate to theenvironment and how we explore the environment from
(14:31):
listening. Well, I didn't say a super important thing in your
presentation, because if you' rea composer, no, and how is
this then to open up like thesetimes and spaces so that that ability to
(14:54):
listen will appear in us. No, because that' s the invitation you
make. Not with this listening inall these different contexts in which you have
worked, not with indigenous people likewhat we saw right now this sound landscape
but also with the Truth Commission,well, in different, in different spaces,
in the Ministry of Culture, then, how it is this, how
(15:16):
it is to open that space sothat we really listen, because, of
course, you put a song andlisten to it. Let' s put
it this way, right, butit' s a different listener, it
' s a deep listener, it' s a listener of myself, also
not of myself. So how's that, because that' s it.
That question is very complex. Notbasically my work has to do with
(15:41):
childhood, because it' s childhood, and early childhood where it' s
built, let' s say thathearing memory. No and all that you
can generate there, all the habits, the customs that you can generate in
those first years of life, ifthey are an important way to relate one
(16:03):
to life from then on, thenwe listen since we are in the exact
womb of the mother. It's the first sense we' ve ever
had. No, he' snot the first. Not the first.
It' s touch. It's worth the tacte. But, but
it' s very important that atfour weeks the ears start to form.
And it is if our first relationshipwith the outside world true, from what
(16:27):
a child is born and already hearsthe bell of his mother' s voice,
these sounds and these universes do notexpand the measure that the child is
growing. The girl then is nolonger the sounds of the home, but
the sounds of the neighborhood, thesounds of the city. Right. And
it is at that moment that wecan generate the habits to listen, that
(16:52):
is, listen. If you don' t practice, you miss listening.
It' s like a muscle.You have to train then, from those
early years, because you have totake a moment to listen, a moment
to close your eyes and discover theenvironment in which you are living and realize
(17:12):
the number of elements that make itup. On the other hand, listening
is a cultural construction. We heardifferent here in Colombia, how they surely
listen in Tibet to how they listenin some African country, to how they
(17:33):
listen in some Pacific island. Solet' s say that our environments configure
some universes, sound to which werelate. True, and that is how
we are discovering the world now,at this moment, because we are experiencing
(17:57):
a crisis in listening. The screens, the screens of the cell phones,
the computers of the televisions are creatingas a hegemony and we hear less and
less and are increasingly exposed to visualstimuli. Then listening also takes time.
(18:26):
Listening is a way of contemplation,so to speak, and at this moment
to contemplate, to close your eyes, to listen to the sound landscapes because
that becomes almost a subversive act,because now let us say in the logics
(18:48):
of the market economy, because tolisten is to waste time. Yes,
then almost that the act of listeningbecomes a revolutionary act today, because when
I hear it I stop being productive. Let' s say paraphrasing Jin chul
Han. So in this listening thing, well they show up. These sound
(19:12):
landscapes and I would like to,and how to start talking a little bit
about this work that you have donein recent years, which has to do
with the Truth Commission, working withex- combatants, the other, with
all this work, this tour thatyou did throughout the Colombian geography, with
the different indigenous communities. Then Iwish we could talk a little bit about
(19:38):
these two elements. For now andwell, you tell us a little bit
about that experience. The work withindigenous communities was born out of a project
that I did, which I hadthe fortune of privilege to do with sign
Colombia that is called expedition. Sonoralet' s say that' s the
(20:00):
background. We went to visit thecountry, but there is a precedent before
and perhaps it is important to nameit, because we are talking about the
Ministry of Culture. We did aproject called the Venezuelan collombo bongo of culture
on the Orinoco River. That wasthirty years ago, wow, yeah,
(20:21):
more or less, not twenty-six years, twenty- six years ago.
It was in the ninety- nine, twenty- seven, twenty-
five years, and that project Iwas very young there for the first time
and discovered the indigenous languages. Let' s say I talk about that background
in the context of the management ofchildhood and Youth, a project in which
(20:42):
we went with children from all overthe country to tour the Orinoco River and
to recognize cultural diversity there. Andthere I had my first meeting with indigenous
communities in the context of projects withChildhood. Then comes Sonora expedition, where
I keep doing the same sound expeditionthat I took advantage of to say that
(21:03):
it was a program that we didwith Teto Campo, with the National University,
with one and a half is Tetomulaó last year. Then tribute to
Teto here, is to tell himthat, because that was a wonderful project
in which he went away populated andI for others to tour the country to
explore the musics, I with theintention of showing it to the girls and
(21:26):
the boys. Here he comes.There we worked with indigenous Afro communities,
but there we made a documentary withthe Wayús and there it was already a
deepening exploration with the Wayús, wheremusic has a very particular sense for the
word and because the music is systemicallyconnected to all sense relations that occur with
(21:53):
the word, the sound, thedance, that is, there is a
whole thing hearing and the worldview inrelation to that way of relating with its
surroundings and with its territory. So, I name those to get to the
(22:17):
project you' re talking about,because these are background records. You almost
always jump to the background, there' s always an accurate, accurate story.
Then I am finishing up more beingin Barcelona and I am invited to
make a proposal to work with indigenouscommunities. At that time, of course,
(22:37):
I was very sensitive to the themeof soundscape. Then I come to
Colombia to work on that project andthe first community we work with is with
the Kams A. But then thisproject is wonderful because it has a very
particular perspective that is for girls andboys. So, like that theme line
(22:59):
was always in my career as verypresent And already for me, because childhood
is a commitment. I think this. It must be acknowledged that it was
inherited from my mother Maria Victoria.Estra' s a pedagogue. I think
she' s the one who sowsthat seed for childhood work. So,
(23:25):
what does listening mean in childhood inthe early years and how do we approach
the sound universes of indigenous communities,taking into account their parenting habits and habits
of belief, because talking about childhood, because that is a very western concept
in indigenous cultures and creates a verybeautiful work. And in relation to the
(23:48):
methodology of how we will build togetherwith them and with the communities. These,
these inquiries and these commands of rebuildingthe sound universe in each community.
Then, at the hands of thecommunities, always with them and with them,
(24:15):
we built a form of joint workin which, generously, they shared
their songs, their stories and theirsoundscapes, which are seen from the perspective
of the upbringing of children. Thenthere are ruins, there are soundscapes,
(24:37):
because the landscape is not very importantto you, not honorscapes. It is
the place, the space where thesound expands, as its molecules through the
jungle of the river of water.Then it is very important to always take
into account the territory where these musicsand these sounds and these ritual practices do
(25:04):
not develop. And so we havemade a compendium of a work that is
called water, wind and green,which is sound landscapes chants and indigenous stories
for children. This is a projectof the Colombian Institute of Family Welfare,
in which a technical table with theMinistry of Culture participates, the program of
(25:30):
zero always of the Presidency of theRepublic that now disappeared, this Council of
Childhood and the Automoli CF and manyentities, since they work with Children.
It is a giant team and withthe production of reading foundation we have done
as a collection of sound materials ofso far twenty- three communities in the
(25:57):
Colombian territory, prioritizing those that havein their language at risk of extinction.
So this means a wonderful opportunity torecognize that listening. It is very interesting,
because it is listening in many ways, it is that the Community listens
to itself for them to decide whatthey want to share with us. So,
(26:19):
as an intracultural exercise, then comesa recognition of others, of the
other communities among themselves, like thatmulticultural, and then are the communities being
heard by us as in that interculturality, in ways of seeing the world,
(26:40):
because every language is a world,every language is a way of naming the
world. When a language disappears,a way of seeing and understanding the very
particular world disappears. Then it hasalso been a race against the clock because
languages are in danger of extinction.And they are threatened by many political factors,
(27:07):
cultural conflict, etcetera. And soit' s this possibility that girls
and boys and their teachers, theirtrainers, listen to that other, listen
to the difference, listen to thatthat puts you in crisis, because this
music puts you in crisis because wehave a very westernized, di- nineteenthic,
(27:33):
European tonal listening and these other waysof building narratives, musical and sound,
because they don' t correspond withthat ear that and with that classical
listening between quotation marks and the West, and it presents us with other rhythms,
other spaces, other temporalities, othermaterialities, and that' s not
(27:56):
easy to approach these musics. Inaddition, they are in other languages.
Then they want s s dos daan entire accompaniment. The project is about
creating a pedagogical model in which thereis a lot of freedom to assume these
audios and to allow girls and boys, basically to enrich their perception in their
(28:17):
early years, create new neural connectionslistening to that richness that is from here,
because it is that we do nothave to leave colloia to see the
thing so impressive that it is thismusic and in what way all those listeners
(28:37):
that I told you about, whatit means to listen to each other in
the Community, between communities and alreadyamong all Colombians and for the world,
of course, because basically it alsoenriches us and sensitizes us about other sonorous
universes other than mine this path beginseither s or neo exploration of my own
(29:00):
environment. In other words, thesoundscape is very important beyond the Bora,
in the Amazon. But it alsomatters how my home sounds, how my
neighborhood sounds, whether it' sa bolívar city or a Usaquillo or it
' s the neighborhood in lime andhow my own environment sounds, because it
(29:22):
' s from the recognition and explorationof my own environment that I come close
to hearing other environments. It isin that, in that discovery and in
that exploration that I, from myspace, approach the other spaces and the
other environments so different from mine.Not sure, and I think it'
(29:48):
s very powerful there and understand howthere we can see the difference, not
like there are other ways. Whatyou' re saying we haven' t
naturalized a form of music like theonly one we' ve ever heard.
We use what' s that,that' s the music. Yeah,
yeah. And now when I heardyou' re grandmothers singing cha said what
(30:14):
beauty. I mean, I don' t understand what you' re saying,
but it fills me deeply. It' s not very touching and you
want to say it. I'm going to read a fragment of what
you' re saying. Aha Yama. Stay quiet? The rascal and stay
quiet? Stay quiet? I'll give you breast so you' ll
be quiet? I' ll giveyou breast so you' ll be quiet?
If you fell asleep, would Iknit? If you fell asleep,
(30:34):
would I knit? Stay quiet?Stay quiet? If God lends you life,
you must learn good things. IfGod lends you your life, will
you learn good things? Stay quiet? It' s amazing everything she'
s telling you. She is atired community grandmother and go to the world
today where tissue is very important andwork too. Then the plough is present
(31:00):
in all communities, all communities aroundthe world. The world, I mean,
the ullo is, that song canbe beautiful that moms make to sleep
their babies. And that' severything, everything, everywhere. It'
s a human condition thing. Wecame with this one exactly then. That
' s how the kamsa sing,but the cogi sing differently and the choreguaje
(31:23):
sing from another and the aliens sing. They' ve got another ruckus.
Then I take this opportunity to inviteyou to explore this page of windy and
green water. Digital audio library.Es The page is digital audio library and
cb com There are all the chants, there are all the contexts and pedagogical
(31:45):
routes and interactive games for girls andboys to listen to our indigenous communities.
It' s so nice to thinkthat from childhood we can understand that there
are other ways. Yes, Ithink it' s one of the ways
we can teach or yes, sothat children, since they' re in
(32:08):
this growth, understand that there aredifferences. Yes, that there is not
a single hegemonic thing, a singleway to see them, life, the
singing of form and that diversity,that is, to expose girls and boys
and adults. That' s alsoclear, because this is an adult issue.
Of course, also to this tothese sounds, because basically it enriches
(32:36):
us exactly, enriches us in manyways. It enriches us as human beings.
It enriches us by expanding our hearingmemory, enriching us by making us
aware of these communities that we havehere. It' s just that this
is an impressive wealth. That is, what is here in Colombia is unique,
because then it is we have amusical and sound richness that goes beyond
(33:05):
what is heard on the radio.Of those spaces and times that the radio
proposes to us are not so limited. No, then, now I'
d tell you that perception has beenreduced to, like, twenty seconds,
ten seconds, and five seconds whenyou' re falling real. So,
these are songs that place us inthe perception of there are twenty- minute
(33:35):
chants and they are beautiful chants.And then, as perception is reduced to
us, then, somehow, thesemusics are balancing the balance in this way
so agitated and so fast that weend up living. Not good. And
(34:00):
then let' s say all thiswork you' ve done with indigenous communities.
Let' s just say they endup in this project, we find
out who it is. It doesn' t end, it doesn' t
finish that project. Yeah, yeah, and that started out as a community
and that expanded a book and thencame the second, the third and I
(34:21):
know more will come. Then.It is a project, also endless,
because it would have to at leastregister them all and it has been ten
years since we started and we wouldhave to see again what now, what
is happening with those communities. Itis like a job never to finish and
(34:45):
independently that project, I have workedother projects, also with indigenous communities,
doing explorations with other communities. Let' s say I worked with Batuta on
a divine project. A year anda half ago in Puerto Asis, with
the Inga and with the children ofBatuta who, because of the conflict,
(35:07):
cannot cross the Putumayo River, becausethey are already on the other side,
because armed groups and there is theconflict. And the Singas came and met
the children, they made a verybeautiful meeting to share, to share their
songs, their stories with the childrenof Batuta, and the children of Batuta
shared with them and we created soundinstallations. The choirs sang songs from the
(35:34):
Singas in a genuine, organic,honest and very enriching exchange for both cultures.
He spoke of culture as urban inport. So if the indigenous cultures
that, despite being there, thesechildren did not know that there were other
children who spoke a language across theriver. So, sometimes in Colombia we
(35:57):
happen that we are very delimited bythe conflict and we cannot move and we
are less mobile and it is aboutmoving, as this program says, the
movement and generates those connections, thoseenergies. So, I' ve always
been working with communities and projects thatinvolve childhood and I know that also in
(36:22):
this project that you did with theCommission, the truth was also with children.
We did a project with children withthe Commission at the beginning, when
it was arming We made a meeting, we designed a pedagogical meeting and when
it came out. When the finalreport came out, I was invited to
(36:47):
make a sound work in relation tothe report by Antioquia, by Cafetero Graba
and the report by Bogotá or Chiand their maps. Then there I did
as a sound installation job. Herein Bogotá I worked with clay pots and
with the idea of giving up thesepainful stories and going somewhere else. Ruby
(37:13):
' s Father and the report saysin their conclusions that Colombia must be healed
and I worked with that idea ofhealing, with sound landscapes of the territories
that were affected by the conflict,understanding that nature is healing and the sounds
of nature heal That' s becausewe come from nature, That has no
(37:35):
mesh, no good science. Weended up living in noisy cities. The
organization Muntes de la Salud says thatnoise is one of the main causes of
death due to hearing contamination, becauseit puts the nervous system on the line.
So, thinking about that that natureand the sounds of nature harmonize us,
because we are of nature and theseurban contexts make us sick because we
(37:58):
are not from here and because alwaysfour walls and right angles will generate,
then, with very complicated texts.To avoid, I worked with soundscapes of
his mumps moor, in the caseof the Bogotá report, his sochi and
his mapáz, and I was therein the moor of his mumps recording the
(38:19):
water. The sounds of the moorthat are very quiet and those sounds.
We put them in a jar togive some sonorous devices created for the installation
that reproduced these sonorous landscapes and amuisque poem that we also composed for this
installation. Then people go and enteras in a space where the soundscapes and
(38:47):
the poem propitiate reflection to write onewho wants to heal in, one who
wants to heal in his surroundings,in the country and double that role and
put it one of the vessels andthose empty ones are spiraling. Then we
want to believe that those spirals continueto expand their desires and that they continue
to cook in the clay pots thoseWhat late metaphors those writings of people and
(39:14):
people end up intervening. That workis for people and for us to think
about healing in Colombia. We needto get rid of each other. Then
the Commission' s report is notwrong when it says that Colombia must be
healed and we must find mechanisms toseek at least reflection on the issue.
(39:42):
And in Medellin I worked with basketswith the community to see cham also these
baskets arranged in spirals and we werein the Angelino Garzón Guard recording soundscapes and
chants of Jaibaná, which made especiallyfor the installation in Meillín, with very
beautiful healing songs. Also in thisinstallation that is called in Medellin we are
(40:07):
baskets woven from the same ana plantsand sounds the truth. And in Bogotá
we are called pots made from thesame healthy land and the truth sounds.
That has been like the work withthe Commission, also in relation to listening,
of course, and to these songsthat evoke us, because how this
territory sounded before it was built,this despelot, which was built like bringing
(40:29):
that, that essence to this timethese two installations were created. Sonoras also
as designed for what we talked aboutat the beginning, generating listening spaces,
spaces of contemplation, spacious is whereit is not the visual, what mobilizes
(40:52):
us. If you don' tlisten to it and listen to it and
it has to do with ourselves andthe universes we have. Each is different
and listens in relation to its interior. So listening is how, somehow,
we connect with ourselves because what asound means to one or the affections or
(41:15):
emotions one feels another feels with thesame sound. Then listening challenges us in
some way as individual. Our imaginationalso expands. You hear this thing we
' re doing here on this podcast. People who know how, imagine us,
how we are. So that listeningalso puts you to the act of
(41:39):
imagination, creativity. Listen looks alot like reading. Also listening is like
reading from the audition. Then workwith boys and girls. It hears power,
all those forms of imagination, ofcreation, of imagining and of seeing
the other and of feeling through sounds, other ways, of understanding the territory,
(42:07):
of understanding space. How beautiful,how powerful and good, because really,
as a Colombian, I say thankyou for doing a job like this
is true. I think that's what I feel that' s about
making a homeland. There really aren' t so many ways we have to
(42:35):
rescue who we are. That's not what we said right now with
the coffee. No, there's American coffee now. No, a
red one does things as simple asthat. Nothing is simple like that,
they' re turning around, they' re permeating us and they' re
uprooting us. So, it's not always uprooting that' s because
(42:57):
we' re displaced well, obviously, so many Colombians who' ve had
that. But there is also somuch way of uprooting from language, not
from what we hear, from whatwe read, from what we see.
Yeah, so, having a littlewhile ago I brought him in was in
the house and showed us. ThenI said that it is this beauty that
(43:17):
you travel, because this is totravel the country, not to travel the
territories. And in this way Iwould say so, so beautiful and so
respectful of each other. Not becauseyou don' t go as the expert,
(43:37):
not that he has all this trainingthat you carry, obviously, you
carry your expertise, but listening tothe other, yes, before that you
had the idea that the researcher wentand drew an extract, an extractivist thing,
and he gave his own idea ofwhat that was exactly like his interpretation.
(43:58):
Now let us say, at thistime, that this concept has been
completely changed and the idea of thejoint construction of the conversation with the other
and with the other and the concertationof the dialogue is more common. So
what you end up doing is acollective creation, an exchange in which,
(44:19):
then, absolutely respectful and also verycareful, because you do a concerted work
with a methodology that takes into account, of course, the communities and their
voice and their word and their decisionsfor any decision that is made. Not
(44:44):
then do I think that' slike a very important change of perspective,
the chest at work and I don' t know how to make fifty years.
That' ll probably get better.No, yes, that relationship.
What' s there, there's enough to go closing, because we
' re going to listen to othersoundscapes this one in some community, something
(45:09):
they would have told you. Thisdoes not come out this ruckus, for
example, it comes out or thischant to the chakra or this chant to
the water. Well, I don' t know that they would have told
you this isn' t ours andwe' re not sharing it. I
think that in their surely, whenthey talk, there are already cool emotions.
Others don' t understand anything fromhere. They' ve already decided
(45:30):
that it' s coming out andthat it' s not coming out.
What I have noticed is that theyconsult a lot, what should be done
and what not. Then they receiveas the information they need to receive and
make their decisions. No, ofcourse, when never, we never get
(45:52):
a microphone out before we have madeeverything, if we have talked, if
we have made agreements and, ofcourse, sometimes they also decide that this
is better. No, or thatthis is something they hadn' t thought
of. So those decisions are veryimportant, because it also makes them talk
(46:17):
about their music and what they wantto do and what they don' t
want to do. And that's a very important conversation for them.
Of course it' s nice torespect those word circles. Not as a
word they speak, Yes around thecoca or around its sacred plants, Yes,
around everything, because everything has,everything makes sense, everything is integrated.
(46:45):
What is then, we, inthe West, have all fractions and
they make musics and sounds and theirpractices are functional. Musicology speaks of aesthetic
music and functional music. Aesthetic musicthat has an audience, that has an
(47:09):
audience and that is played in scenarios, etcetera. Functional music is what serves
and works for something, because,to put it this way in simple terms
and indigenous music has that functional character. It sings to make the harvest good.
It sings for the child to beborn well. It sings so that
to thank the water. It issung forever with a sense that works in
(47:35):
relation to a particular need or tosomething. Well, Leon, David,
you' ve chosen a few tickets. Sounds like finishing the show. Yeah,
yeah, and I' d likeyou to tell us who they'
re from a little bit of thecontext of this that we' re going
to hear. Now for also thenbefore, before I finish, I want
(48:01):
to leave a perfect phrase of Jorgela Rosa, which I love that says
he listens. You' re willingto hear what you don' t know,
what you don' t want,what you don' t need?
One is willing to lose foot andlet himself lie down and drag by what
comes to meet him. One iswilling to transform into an unknown direction.
(48:27):
Jorge la Rosa. Let' shear Kalama' s song from the Kogi
community to protect the seeds. Itis a song that has a translation also
cortitica and is a song for foodsovereignty. Good wow w or it'
(51:01):
s not a squeaky street. Speakthe reaction the one that follows from the
beginning that they left us for thatsong about Kolama is the food sovereignty so
(51:21):
that they protect themselves, preserve them, that they produce well the harvest seeds,
Auyama Pope, then does what tothe mamos, to the dance of
(51:42):
the singing of the baptism of theseeds. We always come singing that.
Then we just heard the song ofwhich one goes to protect the seed interpreted
in the voice by Manuel in Kimacouand the drummer Manuel Tingula Barros, who
does the free translation Fernando. Andnow let' s hear from the community
(52:08):
yu singing for good luck with poorchapa, cha cha cha cha cha,
(53:07):
black drink chala, don pegre beand chala chana chala. I get a
(53:44):
prayer called for good luck. Ashe is a very very clean person,
very pretty, very beautiful, verytender. All that. That is why
that prayer is said, yes,for here there is every good faith,
a good behavior for him, sothat not so that they will not be
(54:05):
harmed. Yes and another that hesaid that' s what stars come out
in the morning that light up likeme was a flashlight. Yes, and
they are also for good luck,so that there is not every evil of
people. That is why it iscalled a personal prayer for oneself so as
not to affect the problem. That' s when I have a problem with
(54:28):
someone else, someone else, someoneelse or another neighbor. Yes, for
one or all of a sudden tosome war where many haikas, or I
put in a retainer of any non- legal legal groups so that they are
respected that they cannot leave quietly.That' s all. This is a
(54:49):
song by Grandpa Arturo Rodríguez and hewants to do the translation of his son,
Felipe Rodríguez, and it is thesummary of what we are talking about.
Not that is so lige of hissongs at this time, not in
ancestral songs for good luck, Butat this moment, if there is an
illegal retention you also sing yes,that is to say that it has that
(55:10):
validity, that validity and in thatway let us say now the contemporaneity of
being integrated into your life Daily asthey bring all their all that they are
precisely for the moment they are living. No, I don' t mean
that. I like that when wesometimes think of acestrality, we think that
(55:30):
we have to go back centuries.This, this is something that is completely
alive, functional and that these practicesare also being learned by girls and boys
in communities, and that is whyit is so important to be able to
spread this beauty and be able tokeep registering it. I think it'
(55:54):
s wonderful, well, we've come to the end of the program
and I' d like, beforewe say goodbye, leondavid, to tell
us good where we can find allthis information. The other day we'
ve been checking your website and it' s endless. Then where can it
be if someone is interested and wantsto write to you, how they can
(56:15):
communicate with you. On my pageis called ideas that sound like there are
all my projects. This particular projectis also on my page, but the
in direct esw Digital Library co Thereon my page are all projects with indigenous
communities with links. All my contactsare also there on Facebook, Instagram,
(56:40):
Leon David co and to my emailLeón co Rog Email if you are interested,
email com if you are interested tocontinue talking to me for whatever it
is there. I' m good, really. Thank you so much.
(57:00):
I repeat, like thanks. AgainI am very moved as a real Colombian,
to be able to give the voiceto those who have a voice also
to those who have been silent becauseof these forms that have been privileged in
(57:22):
our country, and to be ableto understand that we have this, that
we are indigenous, that there isan indigenous root. We sometimes think we
' re very European, I don' t know where from. Well,
of course, we have a Europeanroot, but we also have a very
important indigenous root. And feel thatway again. It seems to me that
(57:45):
it' s me when I closemy eyes and those skulls and God like
I feel one that resounds at hisheart, like it' s the heart
that tunes in there all over mybody. I felt like it was tuned
from my heart, it' snot from my mind thinking it was my
heart that was really tuned. Ithank you infinitely, because thank you,
(58:07):
Vicky, for that invitation and forthose beautiful words. It is very important
to give us time to listen,to listen to the world, to listen.
Going out into the street and listeningand listening is somehow also giving us
a space for contemplation and listening istheir perssive and listening is revolutionary in this
(58:29):
time of productivity. I insist,when we listen we have the possibility to
relate in another way to the environmentand to ourselves. Well, and that
' s one way to build thepass, the peace that has so many
things. Well, then, wehave reached the end of our program by
(58:52):
thinking with the body about the radioshow of the physiotherapy program of the University
of Rosario. And, well,on this occasion, with this great composer
musician and who has done all thiswork Leon David Co And well, remember
that you can follow us on oursocial networks, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube,
like Rosario Radio and that podcasts are, therefore, hosted on the platforms
(59:15):
Spreaker, Spotify and Radio Garden.And well, thank you very much Nelson,
who in the end came to joinus in master control and Mario Castro,
director of the station, and wellyou follow us and see us,
we hear each other on a nextchance. Good morning, good afternoon to
(59:37):
all cyber- hearers. He endsa space where he learned about body-
mind relationships and understood the potential,wisdom and intelligence of the human body for
an hour with the radio show ofthe physiotherapy program of the University of Rosario.
Thinking about the body come and discovereverything that can be done, learned
(01:00:00):
and felt from the consciousness of livingin motion. See you soon, this
was thinking with the body.
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