January 2, 2025 • 16 mins
Integrity by Michael Jensen - Google NotebookLM Podcast Example - EXCELLENT QUALITY a FEW MISTAKES
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, So are you ready to go deep on
(00:01):
this one, because today we are diving deep into integrity.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Integrity.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
I'm so excited about this one, with help from this
really fascinating interview with Harvard Business School professor Michael Jensen. Yeah,
I think he really goes beyond just like those typical
do the right thing cliches and really kind of gets
to the core of why integrity is so vital, not
(00:27):
just ethically, but for achieving real success.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And he's coming at this from kind of a business perspective,
so it's not a you know, be a good person exactly,
and this is how you, this is going to help you,
how you succeed.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yeah, and I'm excited to unpack some of these ideas
because he even designs integrity in a way I had
never considered before.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Oh oh wow.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
It's not just about keeping promises, yeah, which kind of
the traditional view, but about being like whole and complete,
which is a much more powerful idea. But what does
that actually look like in practice?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Well, like he says, it's almost like a law of nature,
like gravity, It just is and so and understanding that
power can unlock so much. Okay, both personally and professionally.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
So let's say you've made a commitment, maybe it's at work,
and then due to unforeseen circumstances, you realize you can't
deliver exactly as promise. Would Jensen say that true integrity
lies in acknowledging that upfront, yes, and taking responsibility even
if it means facing consequences.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Exactly and even if you can't, even if you can't
keep the original promise, you can still honor your word.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Okay, So it's not about like blindly sticking to the
letter of the agreement, but about aligning your actions with
your values even when things get tough.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Totally.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
But see, this is where I get tripped up because
wouldn't people take advantage of that?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
I think that's a common concern. But he argues that
when you actually do that, when you consistently honor your word,
what you're really doing is building a reputation for trustworthiness,
and that that will actually attract the right kinds of
people and opportunities to you.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
So you create a force field that repels the bad people, yes,
and attracts the good ones.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Still love that analogy, the force field, It's like the
integrity force field. Yea, the integrity shee.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Okay, so it's not just about being good, it's about
setting yourself up for success in a really sustainable way. Exactly. Okay,
So how does this idea of being like whole and
complete tie into all of this?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Well, so he breaks down a person's word into six
different parts.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Okay, so it's not just what you say out loud,
but it's also what you know, yes, what's expected of you, Yes,
what you stand for, and even societal norms you operate within.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Yeah, it's a lot. Whoa, it's comprehensive. So even unspoken
expectations matter totally. Like if my friend always drives me
to the airport, I can't just assume that that's always
going to happen without acknowledging.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
It, right, Like, that's an expectation that's been set but
never spoken. Wow, but it's still part of your word.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
So if we're not mindful of these unspoken commitments, we
could be slipping into out of integrity behavior without even
realizing it.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yes, absolutely, and those small breaches can over time really erode.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Trust and create a sense.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Of and create unworkability.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Unworkability.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah and interesting. He uses that word a lot, and
I think it's.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So powerful things aren't workable. Yeah, then nothing gets done.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Right or it's much harder to get things done.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
This reminds me of something else that he mentioned, which
is that integrity isn't just a personal virtue like it
applies to objects and systems too, totally. What did you
mean by that?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
So think of it like a car. Like a car
designed well, maintained properly, and used as intended is operating
with integrity. Okay, it's reliable, performs well.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Makes sense.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
But if you neglect maintenance, use the wrong fuel.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
You start to compromise its integrity.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
You break it.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, it starts to break down. Yeah, becomes less workable.
So the same applies to a computer system, a business,
even a society.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
So hitting this snooze button on my alarm and skipping
that workout, uh huh, I'm actually living out of integrity
with myself potentially.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Interesting. Yeah, that's a good one to think about.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, and I might seem like a small thing, right,
But those small things, yeah, they do, and they create
unworkability in your life. Yeah, when you're not being consistent.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Okay, So integrity is not just essential for like ethical reasons,
but for achieving peak performance.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
And this brings us to another point that he made
that really struck me, okay, which is that he says
integrity is a necessary condition for maximum performance. It's not
a nice to have, not a bonus, It's a fundamental
element for success, right, Like you can't have one without
the other. Totally agree, And he actually argues that the
cost of out of integrity behavior is way higher people realize.
(05:09):
So it's kind of like that neglecting your car maintenance thing,
like you might save time or money in the short term,
but eventually it'll catch up to you.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Totally. And in the business world, those costs can be enormous.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Oh absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Like think about the subprime mortgage crisis. Oh yeah, Like
that wasn't just greed that caused that meltdown. It was
a systemic lack of integrity at multiple levels on every level.
Lenders approving loans to people who couldn't afford them, ratings
agencies rubber stamping risky securities, investors ignoring all the warning signs, all.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Focused on short term gains, and it led to a
near collapse of.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
The entire global financial system.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
It's crazy.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
It's a really stark reminder that integrity isn't just like
this abstract moral concept. It's actually the bedrock of a
stable economy, and, as we've been discussing, even personal success totally.
But he goes even further, Okay.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Tell me more.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
He says, you should never apply cost benefit analysis to
the decision of whaty to honor your word.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
That's interesting, Yeah, I mean it seems kind of counterintuitive
in a business context.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Right, because we're always taught to weigh costs and benefits exactly.
But what he's saying is, if you're constantly calculating whether
it's worth it to keep your word, then your word
becomes meaningless, additional and meaningless.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Right. Why would anyone trust, right, someone who only does
what's best for them?
Speaker 1 (06:39):
It makes you wonder how often we justify breaking promises
or cutting corners based on some calculated gains exact, And
we're e roading trust along the way all.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
The time, probably more than we realize.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Right. So if we're not supposed to weigh costs and benefits,
how do we navigate those tough to say visions We're
honoring our word might come at a price, That is
the question, and that is something that we are going
to dig into next time.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Along with his concept of the veil of invisibility.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Ooh, that's a good one.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
I know, it's such a good one.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
See Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
All right, so we're back, and before we jump into
this whole veil of invisibility.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Thing, okay, I just have to ask what happens, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
When it's like truly impossible to keep your word, Okay,
like life throws curveballs, right, things change? Does that mean
you've like automatically failed the integrity test.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
That's a great question, and it kind of gets to
the heart of what Jensen's talking about.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Remember he differentiates between keeping your word and honoring your word.
So even when you can't fulfill that original promise, integrity
lies in acknowledging that shift, okay, communicating openly with everyone involved,
and taking steps to minimize any negative impact.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
So it's not about like vanishing or making excuses and
things go sideways. It's about owning it.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
It's about that alignment of action and values that we
were talking about. Okay, So being upfront and transparent can
actually strengthen relationship.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Even when things haven't gone to plan.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah, people are more understanding than we think that's good
if we're honest.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah, as long as you're not being shady exactly. Okay,
that makes sense. Yeah, all right, let's dive into this
veil of invisibility. Okay, what is he talking about here?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
This is so good.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
So he's talking about the ways we blind ourselves to
the true cost of out of integrity behavior.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Okay, and he.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Actually outlines eleven factors that contribute to this veil eleven eleven.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Well, okay, I probably don't have time to unpack all
eleven of those, right, but is there one that really
stands out to.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
You as particularly relevant? One that comes to mind is
the tendency to rationalize, Okay, our out of integrity behavior.
You are masters at coming up with excuses and justifications
for why we didn't do what we said we would do.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Totally, we're really good at that.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
We blame external circumstances, we minimize the impact of our actions,
or convince ourselves our intentions were good enough.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
It's like we build these elaborate stories, yes, to shield
us from the.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Truth exactly, And those stories become part of the veil
obscuring the real cost of our actions.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Not just from others, right, but from ourselves totally. So
how do we start to like see through this veil
okay and confront that true cost of out of integrity behavior.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
So much of it starts with awareness, like we've been
talking about, okay, and I think a great place to
start is paying attention to the language we use. Okay,
Like how often do you find yourself saying things.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Like, oh, like I'll try my best, I'll do my best. Yeah,
making a clear commitment, Oh, I do that.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
All the time, right, especially when I'm not really sure
if I can follow through. But what happens is those
phrases they create wiggle room, right, They allow us to
kind of back out without feeling like we've broken our word.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So it becomes part of the.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You become part of the veil, obscuring our true level
of commitment.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Okay. So by being more precise with our language, Yes,
we're strengthening our integrity.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Absolutely. That's interesting because when you make a clear commitment,
you're more likely to hold yourself accountable okay and follow through.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
It's like drawing a line in the sand. Yes, this
is what I stand for. Yes, this is what I'm
going to do. Totally, Man, this veil of invisibility thing
is really making me think about all the subtle ways,
right that we might be undermining our integrity without even
realizing it.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
It's eye opening.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Okay, what about those situations where honoring your word comes
at a significant personal cost.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Oh that's a tough one.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Right, Like how do you balance integrity with self preservation?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
So Jensen doesn't offer easy answers here, okay, but he
encourages us to really question those calculations we make, like
are we truly acting in alignment with our values? Or
are we letting fear, convenience, the desire for approval dictate
our choices.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
So it's about being ruthlessly honest with ourselves totally and
making sure that our actions are congruent with our deepest value,
even when it's hard.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Even when it's hard.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
This is powerful stuff, it is. But I can't help
but wonder. Yeah, what if everyone around you isn't operating
with integrity? Oh? Yeah, Like, how do you maintain your
own integrity in a system that seems to reward dishonesty
and cut throat tactics?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
That is the question. That is the question that we
are going to answer next time.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Okay, So stay tuned.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Stay tuned for part three.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
All right, so we're back, and I'm still kind of
wrestling with this idea of like maintaining integrity when everyone
around you seems to be playing by seat of rules. Yeah,
it feel like you're constantly swimming upstream.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Oh totally. And Jensen actually brings this up, okay, as
one of the factors in the veil of invisibility. It's
this belief that everyone does it right, Like, we convince
ourselves that out of integrity behavior is justified because it's
the norm.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
It's just how things are done around here.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, so we lower our standards to fit in, even
if it goes against our values.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Right, It's that whole if everyone jumped off a bridge, right,
would you jump to exactly? And Jensen would say that's
incredibly dangerous thinking, okay, because it allows us to abdicate
personal responsibility.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
So you're letting everyone else off the hook.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Totally, where like, it's not my fault, everyone else is
doing it, and that becomes another layer of the veil,
obscuring the impact of our choices.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
But if you're the only one holding the line on integrity,
doesn't that make you kind of a target like you're
scene as a threat to the status quo.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
It's definitely a risk, right, and I think Jensen acknowledges that, okay,
But he also argues that it's precisely in those moments
of challenge that our integrity is truly tested.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
So it's like trywy fire, yeah okay, and.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Where the greatest rewards lie.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
So it's not about being naive or expecting everyone to
suddenly become sayings exactly. It's about making those conscious choices
even when they're hard, and staying true to your values totally,
even when it feels like you're standing alone. Yes, okay,
So how do you actually do that? You cultivate that
kind of inner strength.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
I don't think he gives like a simple answer, okay,
but he emphasizes the importance of like support systems.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Okay, So surround yourself with good people, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
People who share your values, who can offer encouragement and
guidance when you're facing those tough decisions.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Find your tribe who gets it even when the rest
of the world doesn't. Exactly, it's about building that network
of support to help you stay the course when the pressure's.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
On totally, and also cultivating self awareness, like regularly checking
in with yourself, examining your motivations, your actions right, and
being honest about any areas where you might be compromising
your integrity, even in a little ways, Yeah, even in
subtle ways, because it all adds up.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
It's like we've been saying this whole time, integrity is
not a destination, it's a journey. It's a process, yeah,
of self reflection, Yeah, and course correction. I love that,
and I think that's a great place to wrap up
this deep dive. Ok. We've explored this idea of integrity
from so many different angles, so many from its surprising
definition to its impact on our lives, our.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Work, our work, the systems we operate.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
In everything, everything. So as we close out, what's the
one key takeaway you really want our listeners to remember?
Speaker 2 (14:53):
The one that really stuck with me is that when
people honor their word, trust emerges a most instantly. And
I think that's powerful because it reminds us that integrity
isn't just about avoiding bad behavior, Okay, it's about actively
cultivating trust, trust with ourselves and with others.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
And that trust is the foundation for everything.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Strong relationships, a thriving society, a better world, I love
that this has been such an eye opening conversation.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
It has challenging, thought provoking Yeah, but ultimately incredibly empowering.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Thank you for guiding us through this deep dive my pleasure,
and for our listeners. We encourage you to keep exploring
this concept of integrity. Reflect on those six parts of
your word. Be mindful of that veil of invisibility. Yes,
and how it might be obscuring the true cost out.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Of integrity behavior. Yes, such a good one.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
And most importantly, ask yourself, Okay, what's one small area
in your life where you can start being more intentional?
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (15:54):
About honoring your word? I love it. Remember even those
small acts of integrity can create a ripple effect.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yes, they do.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
It transforms your life and the world around you.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Totally agree.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Until next time, keep diving deep, Keep diving deep.
All right, So are you ready to go deep on
(00:01):
this one, because today we are diving deep into integrity.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Integrity.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
I'm so excited about this one, with help from this
really fascinating interview with Harvard Business School professor Michael Jensen. Yeah,
I think he really goes beyond just like those typical
do the right thing cliches and really kind of gets
to the core of why integrity is so vital, not
(00:27):
just ethically, but for achieving real success.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And he's coming at this from kind of a business perspective,
so it's not a you know, be a good person exactly,
and this is how you, this is going to help you,
how you succeed.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yeah, and I'm excited to unpack some of these ideas
because he even designs integrity in a way I had
never considered before.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Oh oh wow.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
It's not just about keeping promises, yeah, which kind of
the traditional view, but about being like whole and complete,
which is a much more powerful idea. But what does
that actually look like in practice?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Well, like he says, it's almost like a law of nature,
like gravity, It just is and so and understanding that
power can unlock so much. Okay, both personally and professionally.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
So let's say you've made a commitment, maybe it's at work,
and then due to unforeseen circumstances, you realize you can't
deliver exactly as promise. Would Jensen say that true integrity
lies in acknowledging that upfront, yes, and taking responsibility even
if it means facing consequences.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Exactly and even if you can't, even if you can't
keep the original promise, you can still honor your word.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Okay, So it's not about like blindly sticking to the
letter of the agreement, but about aligning your actions with
your values even when things get tough.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Totally.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
But see, this is where I get tripped up because
wouldn't people take advantage of that?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
I think that's a common concern. But he argues that
when you actually do that, when you consistently honor your word,
what you're really doing is building a reputation for trustworthiness,
and that that will actually attract the right kinds of
people and opportunities to you.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
So you create a force field that repels the bad people, yes,
and attracts the good ones.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Still love that analogy, the force field, It's like the
integrity force field. Yea, the integrity shee.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Okay, so it's not just about being good, it's about
setting yourself up for success in a really sustainable way. Exactly. Okay,
So how does this idea of being like whole and
complete tie into all of this?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Well, so he breaks down a person's word into six
different parts.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Okay, so it's not just what you say out loud,
but it's also what you know, yes, what's expected of you, Yes,
what you stand for, and even societal norms you operate within.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Yeah, it's a lot. Whoa, it's comprehensive. So even unspoken
expectations matter totally. Like if my friend always drives me
to the airport, I can't just assume that that's always
going to happen without acknowledging.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
It, right, Like, that's an expectation that's been set but
never spoken. Wow, but it's still part of your word.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
So if we're not mindful of these unspoken commitments, we
could be slipping into out of integrity behavior without even
realizing it.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yes, absolutely, and those small breaches can over time really erode.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Trust and create a sense.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Of and create unworkability.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Unworkability.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah and interesting. He uses that word a lot, and
I think it's.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So powerful things aren't workable. Yeah, then nothing gets done.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Right or it's much harder to get things done.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
This reminds me of something else that he mentioned, which
is that integrity isn't just a personal virtue like it
applies to objects and systems too, totally. What did you
mean by that?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
So think of it like a car. Like a car
designed well, maintained properly, and used as intended is operating
with integrity. Okay, it's reliable, performs well.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Makes sense.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
But if you neglect maintenance, use the wrong fuel.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
You start to compromise its integrity.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
You break it.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, it starts to break down. Yeah, becomes less workable.
So the same applies to a computer system, a business,
even a society.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
So hitting this snooze button on my alarm and skipping
that workout, uh huh, I'm actually living out of integrity
with myself potentially.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Interesting. Yeah, that's a good one to think about.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, and I might seem like a small thing, right,
But those small things, yeah, they do, and they create
unworkability in your life. Yeah, when you're not being consistent.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Okay, So integrity is not just essential for like ethical reasons,
but for achieving peak performance.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
And this brings us to another point that he made
that really struck me, okay, which is that he says
integrity is a necessary condition for maximum performance. It's not
a nice to have, not a bonus, It's a fundamental
element for success, right, Like you can't have one without
the other. Totally agree, And he actually argues that the
cost of out of integrity behavior is way higher people realize.
(05:09):
So it's kind of like that neglecting your car maintenance thing,
like you might save time or money in the short term,
but eventually it'll catch up to you.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Totally. And in the business world, those costs can be enormous.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Oh absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Like think about the subprime mortgage crisis. Oh yeah, Like
that wasn't just greed that caused that meltdown. It was
a systemic lack of integrity at multiple levels on every level.
Lenders approving loans to people who couldn't afford them, ratings
agencies rubber stamping risky securities, investors ignoring all the warning signs, all.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Focused on short term gains, and it led to a
near collapse of.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
The entire global financial system.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
It's crazy.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
It's a really stark reminder that integrity isn't just like
this abstract moral concept. It's actually the bedrock of a
stable economy, and, as we've been discussing, even personal success totally.
But he goes even further, Okay.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Tell me more.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
He says, you should never apply cost benefit analysis to
the decision of whaty to honor your word.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
That's interesting, Yeah, I mean it seems kind of counterintuitive
in a business context.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Right, because we're always taught to weigh costs and benefits exactly.
But what he's saying is, if you're constantly calculating whether
it's worth it to keep your word, then your word
becomes meaningless, additional and meaningless.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Right. Why would anyone trust, right, someone who only does
what's best for them?
Speaker 1 (06:39):
It makes you wonder how often we justify breaking promises
or cutting corners based on some calculated gains exact, And
we're e roading trust along the way all.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
The time, probably more than we realize.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Right. So if we're not supposed to weigh costs and benefits,
how do we navigate those tough to say visions We're
honoring our word might come at a price, That is
the question, and that is something that we are going
to dig into next time.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Along with his concept of the veil of invisibility.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Ooh, that's a good one.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
I know, it's such a good one.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
See Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
All right, so we're back, and before we jump into
this whole veil of invisibility.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Thing, okay, I just have to ask what happens, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
When it's like truly impossible to keep your word, Okay,
like life throws curveballs, right, things change? Does that mean
you've like automatically failed the integrity test.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
That's a great question, and it kind of gets to
the heart of what Jensen's talking about.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Remember he differentiates between keeping your word and honoring your word.
So even when you can't fulfill that original promise, integrity
lies in acknowledging that shift, okay, communicating openly with everyone involved,
and taking steps to minimize any negative impact.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
So it's not about like vanishing or making excuses and
things go sideways. It's about owning it.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
It's about that alignment of action and values that we
were talking about. Okay, So being upfront and transparent can
actually strengthen relationship.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Even when things haven't gone to plan.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah, people are more understanding than we think that's good
if we're honest.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Yeah, as long as you're not being shady exactly. Okay,
that makes sense. Yeah, all right, let's dive into this
veil of invisibility. Okay, what is he talking about here?
Speaker 2 (08:26):
This is so good.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
So he's talking about the ways we blind ourselves to
the true cost of out of integrity behavior.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Okay, and he.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Actually outlines eleven factors that contribute to this veil eleven eleven.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Well, okay, I probably don't have time to unpack all
eleven of those, right, but is there one that really
stands out to.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
You as particularly relevant? One that comes to mind is
the tendency to rationalize, Okay, our out of integrity behavior.
You are masters at coming up with excuses and justifications
for why we didn't do what we said we would do.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Totally, we're really good at that.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
We blame external circumstances, we minimize the impact of our actions,
or convince ourselves our intentions were good enough.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
It's like we build these elaborate stories, yes, to shield
us from the.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Truth exactly, And those stories become part of the veil
obscuring the real cost of our actions.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Not just from others, right, but from ourselves totally. So
how do we start to like see through this veil
okay and confront that true cost of out of integrity behavior.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
So much of it starts with awareness, like we've been
talking about, okay, and I think a great place to
start is paying attention to the language we use. Okay,
Like how often do you find yourself saying things.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Like, oh, like I'll try my best, I'll do my best. Yeah,
making a clear commitment, Oh, I do that.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
All the time, right, especially when I'm not really sure
if I can follow through. But what happens is those
phrases they create wiggle room, right, They allow us to
kind of back out without feeling like we've broken our word.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So it becomes part of the.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You become part of the veil, obscuring our true level
of commitment.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Okay. So by being more precise with our language, Yes,
we're strengthening our integrity.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Absolutely. That's interesting because when you make a clear commitment,
you're more likely to hold yourself accountable okay and follow through.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
It's like drawing a line in the sand. Yes, this
is what I stand for. Yes, this is what I'm
going to do. Totally, Man, this veil of invisibility thing
is really making me think about all the subtle ways,
right that we might be undermining our integrity without even
realizing it.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
It's eye opening.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Okay, what about those situations where honoring your word comes
at a significant personal cost.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Oh that's a tough one.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Right, Like how do you balance integrity with self preservation?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
So Jensen doesn't offer easy answers here, okay, but he
encourages us to really question those calculations we make, like
are we truly acting in alignment with our values? Or
are we letting fear, convenience, the desire for approval dictate
our choices.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
So it's about being ruthlessly honest with ourselves totally and
making sure that our actions are congruent with our deepest value,
even when it's hard.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Even when it's hard.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
This is powerful stuff, it is. But I can't help
but wonder. Yeah, what if everyone around you isn't operating
with integrity? Oh? Yeah, Like, how do you maintain your
own integrity in a system that seems to reward dishonesty
and cut throat tactics?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
That is the question. That is the question that we
are going to answer next time.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Okay, So stay tuned.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Stay tuned for part three.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
All right, so we're back, and I'm still kind of
wrestling with this idea of like maintaining integrity when everyone
around you seems to be playing by seat of rules. Yeah,
it feel like you're constantly swimming upstream.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Oh totally. And Jensen actually brings this up, okay, as
one of the factors in the veil of invisibility. It's
this belief that everyone does it right, Like, we convince
ourselves that out of integrity behavior is justified because it's
the norm.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
It's just how things are done around here.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, so we lower our standards to fit in, even
if it goes against our values.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Right, It's that whole if everyone jumped off a bridge, right,
would you jump to exactly? And Jensen would say that's
incredibly dangerous thinking, okay, because it allows us to abdicate
personal responsibility.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
So you're letting everyone else off the hook.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Totally, where like, it's not my fault, everyone else is
doing it, and that becomes another layer of the veil,
obscuring the impact of our choices.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
But if you're the only one holding the line on integrity,
doesn't that make you kind of a target like you're
scene as a threat to the status quo.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
It's definitely a risk, right, and I think Jensen acknowledges that, okay,
But he also argues that it's precisely in those moments
of challenge that our integrity is truly tested.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
So it's like trywy fire, yeah okay, and.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Where the greatest rewards lie.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
So it's not about being naive or expecting everyone to
suddenly become sayings exactly. It's about making those conscious choices
even when they're hard, and staying true to your values totally,
even when it feels like you're standing alone. Yes, okay,
So how do you actually do that? You cultivate that
kind of inner strength.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
I don't think he gives like a simple answer, okay,
but he emphasizes the importance of like support systems.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Okay, So surround yourself with good people, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
People who share your values, who can offer encouragement and
guidance when you're facing those tough decisions.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Find your tribe who gets it even when the rest
of the world doesn't. Exactly, it's about building that network
of support to help you stay the course when the pressure's.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
On totally, and also cultivating self awareness, like regularly checking
in with yourself, examining your motivations, your actions right, and
being honest about any areas where you might be compromising
your integrity, even in a little ways, Yeah, even in
subtle ways, because it all adds up.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
It's like we've been saying this whole time, integrity is
not a destination, it's a journey. It's a process, yeah,
of self reflection, Yeah, and course correction. I love that,
and I think that's a great place to wrap up
this deep dive. Ok. We've explored this idea of integrity
from so many different angles, so many from its surprising
definition to its impact on our lives, our.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Work, our work, the systems we operate.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
In everything, everything. So as we close out, what's the
one key takeaway you really want our listeners to remember?
Speaker 2 (14:53):
The one that really stuck with me is that when
people honor their word, trust emerges a most instantly. And
I think that's powerful because it reminds us that integrity
isn't just about avoiding bad behavior, Okay, it's about actively
cultivating trust, trust with ourselves and with others.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
And that trust is the foundation for everything.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Strong relationships, a thriving society, a better world, I love
that this has been such an eye opening conversation.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
It has challenging, thought provoking Yeah, but ultimately incredibly empowering.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Thank you for guiding us through this deep dive my pleasure,
and for our listeners. We encourage you to keep exploring
this concept of integrity. Reflect on those six parts of
your word. Be mindful of that veil of invisibility. Yes,
and how it might be obscuring the true cost out.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Of integrity behavior. Yes, such a good one.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
And most importantly, ask yourself, Okay, what's one small area
in your life where you can start being more intentional?
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (15:54):
About honoring your word? I love it. Remember even those
small acts of integrity can create a ripple effect.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yes, they do.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
It transforms your life and the world around you.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Totally agree.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Until next time, keep diving deep, Keep diving deep.
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