#390: Grey Rocking Narcissism, Therapist Needs Friends, Weight Loss Journey

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So we're naming this show what Grease Scream is That.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
Movie is ruined for me. Yeah, I've done that show
a few times.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
From Fabulous Last Thanks Mad. This is pod therapy, real people,
real problems, and real therapists. You can submit your questions
anonymously at pod therapy dot net or email us at
pod therapy guys at gmail dot com.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Broadcasting from the churn. That's Jim, that's Whitney.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
I'm Nick.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
It's time for some pod therapy. Hello friends. We are
into our summertime. We are going on little trips around. Uh.
I was gonna say the world, but really just an
hour radius.

Speaker 4 (00:42):
Well, you are very small radio.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Some of the rest of us are going farther.

Speaker 4 (00:46):
I'm going to Portugal.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
What are you the same?

Speaker 4 (00:50):
We were all going to Portugal.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
Did we not.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
Get the invite?

Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yeah? I'm not part of your swinger so I don't
know what your news. I thought, Oh no, you're getting
kicked the swinger club until you find out you know what,
pro will start her own. You don't worry, man, I'm
not gonna let them push you around.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
You're interesting. Nick and Jim.

Speaker 5 (01:14):
Swinger Club Free to email pop the website, Gmail dot.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
Com somebody by Nick and Jimswinger club dot com. Right now,
we'll we'll build a treehouse.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Outside.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
It will be a tire swing obviously.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
That's what this is. That's the Swinger.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
What are you guys talking about? Patroon dot com slash therapy.
You can hear all about some trips. We're doing some movies.

Speaker 4 (01:45):
We're watching Portugal August.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
Okay, I'm going in July.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
Well maybe if there's any Portugal left after Jacob has
been there, right.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
Tear it on down, shut.

Speaker 4 (01:58):
I'm excited.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah, break of diseases they haven't seen maybe. Oh.

Speaker 4 (02:04):
Someone just that I was at dinner with earlier was
saying that Wisconsin is the place to go.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
I do like Madison. I've been to Madison several times.
Where have you been to Wisconsin?

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Oh? Yeah, I've been all over.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
There are two vacations that everybody from the Midwest goes on. Okay, okay,
you you've went on one of or two of these? Okay,
The Black Hills. What's that Mount Rushmore?

Speaker 4 (02:31):
Yeah, it was like Mount Rushmore, South Dakota.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
Or yeah, or the Wisconsin Dells.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
Is that the where they make the milk the farmer?

Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly what is the Wisconsin.

Speaker 3 (02:46):
It's kind of like a imagine, like uh, hard to describe,
like a typical like lake community Okay, okay, in the
summertime where the population like quadruples.

Speaker 4 (03:00):
Like Michigan and stuff.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
Okay, but it's.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
They've got it a lot.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
The best way to describe it as a lot of
mini golf and go kart tracks.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
Amazing.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
That sounds great like all those things. You ever watched
the movie The Great Outdoors?

Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yes, yeah, I love that.

Speaker 3 (03:18):
Ye add that to the h That's a good one
where they go they do the go karts and then
he's the other guys out hitting golf balls on the ring.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
That's where they're at. That no, that's not where they're at.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
But that's essentially what the Wisconsin got it.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Okay. I like this idea.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
Wisconsin is pretty good. Yeah, yeah, I like cheap like
your other suggestions, you know, the suggestion honestly, Michigan to
found motel, not going that far.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
So we want on a plane, la.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
Laura and I watch a lot of travel shows on PBS.
So Samantha Brown, you know, you know Samantha Brown. Yeah,
Sandy b we go way back. So she's got a
show on their Places to Love, and she did one
in Traverse City, Michigan. Oh, and we watched it. We're like,
holy shit, this is really cool, Like could this would
be like a really fun trip.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
It's amazing to me that Laura, who is one of
the cooler people I've ever met in my life, is
it all entertaining the idea of the Midwest as a
place she would ever get? She loves it. It's weird
how she ironically loves its great And I just think, like, no,
she's secretly shitting on this place the whole time, and
she's like, well this is great, Like I love everything.
She really likes it. Yeah, she's like cool, cool, Like

(04:33):
I feel like she could be a Manhattan chick.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
Is that where cool people?

Speaker 1 (04:36):
She lived in Manhattan? See there you go. Wow, damn,
I'm really good at this. I know people I do. Yeah.
Patron dot com slash Therapy, you can support the show.
You can also help Jim come up with more movies
to watch during the summertime or suggest trips. Oh there
you go, my son will love that. Will It's a
solid teen boy?

Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah? Yeah, by the bell. First, Well, here's the thing.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
Here's the thing. He'll love it. He will. Actually, I
think he'd hate it. Yeah, he'd hate watching it with you.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
Of course.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
I think that was one of the worst things growing up,
was going to movies with your family and then they
just have like the obligatory sex scene in there, and
you're like, this fucking sounds like like I think modern
film has kind of gotten rid of that now, Like
it's amazing how the standards have changed. You go back
and see things like what was this fucking rated? What
was grease rated? Like now that we've gotten over the.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Content, yea, yeah, yeah, no, all those movies are PG.
Yeah that today would not.

Speaker 5 (05:31):
But there was also a time when, uh, like you
could have brief nudity or something like that, like like
people showering or something like that in the movie, and
that wouldn't get an R rating.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, no, it'd be like a PG or PG thirteen.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
It's it's interesting how much a little non sexual nudity
or something. Yeah, like, oh god, I wanted to watch
Disney's The Three Musketeers, which, if you think back, that's
the one with key for Sutherland. Oh yeah, it was
really good. And Cardinal Richelieu is played by the guy
who plays Rocky Horror Picture Show.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
Okay, Tim Curry.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
I was like, it's a really great cast, Like it's
really Christian O'Donnell.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
I think is the Crystal o'donald. Yeah, so yeah, Robin,
yeah exactly.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, but yeah, I wanted to watch that with the kids,
and I'm like great, and I'm like, oh, we should
fire this up on Disney. And I was like, hey,
double check it because like I don't know if it's appropriate.
And I'm like, it's a Disney movie talking about like
I look it up on the web and I'm like,
oh no, there's like full on zec scenes and like
partial nudity and all those like what the fuck Disney
Childhood was weird. Caban.

Speaker 4 (06:32):
I was like, people, I mean, there's no blood, but
they're like dying. They're just killing people.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
A lot of people get stabbed right in the fucking
throat in that movie, and you're just like when you rewatch,
you're like, holy shit, a lot of people just die
and dying like raiding a town and stealing women and
you're like, ah, this.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
Is not the way I remember the road.

Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yeah. So anyway, yeah, we need summer movie suggestions. But
patroon dot Com Slash Therapy support the show. It is
deeply appreciated, and we always appreciate you joining in and
being on the Discord and giving us some live chat
feedback to the questions and it turns into a lot
of great dialogue, and of course you get the show
a day.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
Earlier and without any ads.

Speaker 1 (07:11):
But we've got some great questions for today's episode, and
we're leading it off with a topic we've never really
gotten into before. I'm pretty excited about this, and it's
titled Gray Rocking a Narcissist.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
It's a cool idea.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
So it's from our friend bgay Do Crimes, who says, hey,
here's another question. It was also posted on Discord, so
great fact there. If you're out there and you're like, hey,
I want to ask questions. I don't know if I
really want the whole like show experience on it, but
I do like feedback. Get on the discord. We have
channels where people just put up questions and just get
you know, group feedback. So really cool way just to
get the dialogue going. But anyway, bgay Do Crimes Rights,

(07:46):
I think I just understood something. I picked up Gray
Rocking from videos I saw from YouTube recently I realized
what this is. I'll explain it, okay, great. I realized
that it was one of the strategies I was already
using when dealing with my mother, who has some narcissistic traits.
When I'm around her, the choice is usually to either appease, fight,

(08:09):
or shut down. I learned then to be very sensitive
to situations when someone is not happy with me, and
I would start being careful choosing my words, holding my
tongue when I can. Then I learned to focus on
practical information and focus on empathy to capital h handle
the person in front of me like a dangerous animal

(08:30):
that could pounce at any second. It made it so
I shut down my emotions and don't express them to
feel safe, and of course it has backfired. These days,
I end up feeling lonely because I constantly noticed the
slightest of hints that people might be unhappy with me.
I'm also extra cautious with expressing myself. I think it
causes me to sabotage the process of making friends or

(08:52):
feeling genuine with people. It feels like there's always a
fake facade between me and myself and anyone around me.
I want to break that habit? How can I do that?

Speaker 2 (09:03):
B gay do?

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Crimes pronouns are he and him. Age is forty one
and just as a general show note because Biga didn't unpack,
Like what is gray rocking? So usually it's like a
it's kind of like hiding in plain sight. So like
you're dealing with somebody who's toxic, manipulative, excessive, angry, volatile,
and you just kind of take this like Kid's gloves approach.
They call it gray rocking because it's like blending into

(09:25):
the background. You're just a gray rock in this. You're
giving them nothing, okay, nothing to piss them off. So
like when somebody's looking for a fight with you kind
of thing, and you're like, okay, if I give them sass,
if I give them energy back, they will escalate, and
then I will escalate, right and if.

Speaker 2 (09:40):
I react, well known.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
My sassiness is very strong or I feel hurt, and
so they're yelling at me and they're being cruel to me,
and so like now I'm like being subdued and like
I'm seeming affected emotionally. That could piss them off too,
because like, oh no, you're gonna fucking pout.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
I want to take account blah blah blah.

Speaker 1 (09:57):
And so like anybody who's like this kind of toxic mess,
gray rocking is often this this method that people kind
of pick up where it's just emotional neutrality, just kind
of like subdued and just hide. And but this is
what Bigue's talking about. Is it growing up with a
narcissistic parent. He learned how to like gray rock right now,
he looks it up and realizes, oh, a lot of

(10:17):
people that have survived narcissistic people in their lives are
excessive people in their lives also describe the strategy where
they learn to be like numb and like held back
and reserved and just wait for the person to punch
themselves out basically, and then you just kind of move on.
But he's saying, like, now that sucks because that kind
of became a fake version of me that now I
hold and I need to break through that is there.

Speaker 4 (10:39):
And because when I picture the term gray rocking and
that numbness you talk about, I kind of imagine like
a subdued emotion underneath, but like I imagine it would
be actually like a lot of anxiety underneath, right because
you're trying to not be noticed, so it's like turbulent insight.
Even though you're like outward is calm and.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
Collected, outside just kind of giving them nothing. It's a
poker face, and it's like it's depriving this this fiery
person of oxygen. Basically you're non reacting to them, and
you know, but then it also sucks because then this
toxic person often has like permission to keep doing their
bullshit right because they're not experiencing a consequence. But then

(11:18):
it's also tough because you've probably tried to like do
consequences and get angry back at them, but they will
always escalate and make it worse, and you've realized, like
the fastest way to get through this unfortunate experience with
this person is just to like be cool, let it pass. Yeah,
and then you know, you'll be around friends or family
that see this person lose their shit and they're like,
what the fuck is this and you're like you all
just like suddenly stare off, you know, like you're just

(11:41):
ignoring this and moving on. And yeah, it's an adaptive strategy,
which sucks because then, yeah, you do kind of become
detached and then there's like this facade and I think
also the thing Bgay is talking about is like becoming
hypersensitive now to like, oh, have I upset anybody? Because
when you're living with somebody who is human nitro glycerine, Yeah,
the slightest jostle you're like very fucking aware of. And

(12:03):
then you move on and you meet other, you know,
people that are along the emotional continuum of normality, and
then you're like, are you okay?

Speaker 2 (12:10):
Did I offend you?

Speaker 1 (12:11):
And like I relate to this a lot, like I'm
very jittery of like, oh shit, are we cool? Like
did I say the wrong thing or whatever? And like
that can suck, you know, because it's like you're, you know,
then you're constantly vigilant for that and you don't need
to be.

Speaker 4 (12:23):
Yeah, I feel I'm gonna throw Peter under the bus.
I feel like this is how Peter is and it's
from similar scenario. A parent in your home displayed narcissistic tendencies,

(12:45):
and so going throughout our relationship is kind of interesting
because in some ways this is horrible, but early on
in our relationship, I feel like that was helpful. Beer
with me. I don't think it was good, but it's
like he didn't really show his true feelings about things.
So in some ways, I think back early on in

(13:06):
our relationship and should I might have done that annoyed
him or like whatever, I'm sure.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
We're great when he would shut the fuck up and
let me do whatever I want.

Speaker 4 (13:14):
No, I mean, I think if he just spoke his mind,
I'd be like, what, Like, you're upset that I like
asked you for a glass of water or whatever, And
so internally he'd be like, oh my gosh, why is
she doing that? But I can't show my true emotion,
So he kind of like suppressed anyway till till rapport
was built, and then built and then now obviously here
we are, like eighteen years later, and uh even before that.

(13:35):
In the last few years, he's done a great job
working through this. But this is still a conversation that
comes up with like new people he meets, if there's
anyone in his like line of work that he has
great respect for, he's very gets very sensitive to any
feedback because he's like, oh, did I did I do
something wrong? Or I can't you know what? I put

(13:56):
myself out there a little bit, and you're you're very
sensitive to the respect even down to one. This was
kind of awesome. He was on a call that was
video recorded, and he left this call and he was like,
oh my gosh, you know I sounded so stupid on
this call, but like he's really beating himself up. He's
like that the guy who I was responding to me

(14:18):
was this expert in the field, and he responded in
a way I know, he like he thought I shouldn't
even asked that question. Oh yeah, And so I was like,
all right, we'll sit with it, rewatch it through. I'll
rewatch it, like because he's like, will you watch this
and tell me your thoughts honestly or he did end
up showing me the clip. Eventually it was nothing, and
he even said that he rewatched He goes, oh yeah,

(14:38):
like that was nothing. But his experience in that moment
was like it's like you're transported back to that response
because you're so sensitive to that. It's like when you're
raised for eighteen years under the roof of your parent
who might be like critical or their moods are all
over the place, so you don't know what they're going

(14:58):
to be upset about. We be okay with It's like
and your feelings are not okay, Like you cannot show
that you're upset. Only I can. And you need to
be the child that's behaved, like you know, you need
to have your shit together. So then you learn, all right,
I just have to have my shit together no matter what.
But your own emotions are so suppressed. It's like you
can be you. It's okay.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
So it's a good time to talk about golf.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
Oh good, yeah, yeah, this thing that's like everybody drink.

Speaker 1 (15:29):
The reels versus the feels, okay, Like what like.

Speaker 3 (15:34):
Within like instagram, within a golf swing, what you actually
feel is happening versus what is actually happening. Okay, because
like in your in your brain, how you see yourself.
From your perception, you think you're doing one thing and
it's not until you actually see it on video you're like,
holy shit, I was way off, you know, Like it

(15:56):
was funny because after the tournament today, I was, you know,
hanging out with the guys and we were talking and
you played golf today.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
I didn't get a chance to tell the audience. We've
started strategically asking about it before we record, that we
get it out.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
Of your system.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
But here we are. I just get to talk about
it a second time.

Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
So anyway, we.

Speaker 3 (16:22):
Were talking about like golf swings and like trying to
take like a three quarter swing, and I had said,
you know, at one point my coaches like, just take
a three quarter swing and did it, and then she
showed me the video of it. And what I thought,
three quarter is all zoomed was the whole time You're like, no,
it's front on. So it was crotcher, Oh good, good,

(16:42):
but yeah, but my back swing, like I was all
the way up. So anyway, but it's it's kind of
that perception of like, you know, when you become super
sensitive to something, then the reels versus the feels what
you feel you're doing is so far off base, and
we see this all over it. It's anything like when
you you know, when when the saying that I've heard

(17:06):
in the song is like once you've once you you know,
drink so much wine?

Speaker 1 (17:10):
Or fuck how I fuck it up? I fucked it up.
I can't remember.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
Everybody drink. Nobody will ever hear any of this. Totally
delete it.

Speaker 3 (17:22):
I'm gonna have to come back to this. I will
come back to this, but anyway, it doesn't matter. But
like this this idea of like I think it's the
way you take a vodka drink when you're all the
way on one end. Anything shifted just a little bit
to one side looks.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
Like the far extremes.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
Oh yeah, right right.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
You see this in politics all the time, right, It's
like where one side is like, holy shit, you're accusing
us of this, and it's like, no, we're just saying
a little bit of you.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
Know, yeah, no, this is a good point, and and
like that's exactly what I think the writer's talking about here,
is like whenever you've lived your whole life in this volatility,
got it there there, Once you've tasted blood, the wine
seems too thin. Dark.

Speaker 4 (18:01):
I was way darker, and I thought it was I
was like, why yay, oh, okay, shit kind of golf
is a catholic.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah, But I like your point here that there is
sort of like a tolerance that's built up and a normality,
and it's really hard whenever you enter your adulthood. I mean,
Biga is like forty, you know, and he's like, dude,
like since a child, Like I lived my adulthood with
this hyper sensitivity of I'm walking on eggshells around all
these other humans. I'm so scared. I'm an upset the
apple cart.

Speaker 4 (18:31):
It's like how you survived in a word.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
Right, it worked, it was an adaptive skill, but then
it also sucks. And like I can appreciate where you're saying,
like it sucks because I'm not genuine sometimes, like and
I really relate to this, Like we've I've told you
guys this, or I think I've said this before, and
I think when I say it, you all just kind
of like huh, and you just don't like like most
things I say, I think you just don't listen to
me hard, Like I admire how when especially Jacob and Nicks.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
I don't see this with Whitney as much.

Speaker 1 (18:59):
But we'll be out doing something in the world, yeah,
a goddamn yeah, fuck of everything. But like, no, we'll
be out in the world and something will happen that
makes one of you unhappy, Like something just happened, like
they they brought the wrong thing, or like something they
didn't hear you or whatever. You're able to show disapproval

(19:19):
to that person or that situation and like do it authentically.
It's not right size you're not throwing anything across you know,
the fucking room. But you will disapprove vocally and like
they'll be like, oh my god, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Let me make that right. It's fixed, and.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
Like I'm just always sitting there in awe. I'm like
how did you do that? Like how did you in
a situation? If you bring me the wrong thing, I'm
now that's mine. Now I don't want to have a problem,
Like I don't want to say anything wrong.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
I just know it's cool.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
Or if like somebody gets volatile or whatever, like I'm
either going to gray Rock or And I think this
has made me pretty useful in addictions environments, like de
escalate like a motherfucker, Like which if you've been that
child in your household, like you've learned like diffuse the bombs,
don' let the parents fight, like you know, hide the
other sibling, like you're gonna get everything low key, and
like that will make you a pretty good therapist for
certain crisis interventions. But it sucks when it becomes like

(20:11):
imbutes your personality because then you can't tolerate anybody else,
like being unhappy without having to feel like you have
to fix it, or like being authentic, like Bigay says,
where it's like I can't access my genuine disapproval or
my upsetness and say it authentically because I never want
to upset anybody else and create a situation.

Speaker 3 (20:33):
There's actually, you know, when you brought up addictions work
that kind of reminds me of this, because when we
work with families, we get to see a lot of
the family dynamics and the family roles because you know,
when and I like to look at it as like
the family is almost kind of like it's like.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
A cherry pie.

Speaker 3 (20:51):
Okay, kind of yes, where like the classic.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
That's what I was thinking.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
Hold on, this gets even better.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
I'm sure. Hold on, you were just talking about drinking blood.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
You're just on the edge of your seats. I'm pretty scared. Actually,
it's got the cancel button right here.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
When you pull out that first piece of cherry pie,
the filling on the inside all kind of slides out
right because it's got to fill that empty spot.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yes, No, he's doing fine.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
That's basically what happened.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
I know, just disappointed.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
That happens. We don't need the hand just does not help.
Your cherry pie is being maneuvered with two fingers, and
it's not helping us.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
What happens if a grown man tastes it? Do they do?
They cry? Actually had a really I had.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
A really good point. This is the show is off
the rails.

Speaker 3 (21:47):
But when, uh, when the person in the family who's
got the problem, whether that be gambling, addiction, whatever, they're
now out of the pie, right, They're out of the picture.
So all these roles have to fill void is filmed,
and so everybody in the family ends up taking a role,
and what happens with the kids is usually get and

(22:10):
this probably oversimplifies it quite a bit, but you get
the family hero who takes over for the other parent
that is now withdrawn, you know, that has to take
care of dad, you know, because dad's all fucked up,
so Mom's got to do that, so no one's there
to take care of the kid that falls in the
family hero. And then you've got the the scapegoat, you know.

(22:33):
And then you've got the lost child, You've got the mascot.
You've got all of these different roles, and this actually
kind of sounds like the role of the lost child.
The role of the lost child is really to just
be the one that no one has to worry about,
that just sits quietly and doesn't just disappears into the
background because it keeps everything calm.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
I add no complexity to this equation. I'm fine, Please
focus on others. Yes. By the way, a special request
I'm making right now this would be a really good
deep dive for Monday content is to do the whole
family Roles thing. It's been a while since I've done
a refresher on it, and I think people doind it fascinating. Yeah,
you know, it's it's very much addiction targeted. Like I

(23:14):
think it's very relatable because there's a lot of that arch.
I write that down because I will not remember.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
That's a fairly I needed to have video of you describing.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
Just really really showing us my adjustures were fully appropriate.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
Well, we're not alive on Twitch, so people are just.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
Gonna have to use there.

Speaker 4 (23:32):
I just have to say what Jacob's airplane story was
because I thought about it last weekend. One of the
people I was traveling with was the type of person
when the plane stops and they just stand up and
just walk.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
Oh yeah, And I was.

Speaker 4 (23:45):
Like, Jacob, be not PiZZ but would say something right now,
you bring justice that a plane you said.

Speaker 5 (23:51):
Oh yeah, I did, but because she was if you
get up and like book it out, I will think like, oh,
there goes a somewhat rude person. Sure, but like if
they're not in anybody else's way, cool, Okay, this person
was like really.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
Inconveniencing other people because what she.

Speaker 4 (24:07):
Was trying to say anyway, well never mind.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
She was blocking other people in and slowly and to correct.

Speaker 4 (24:12):
My friends on the flight back, I said.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
My friend Jacob is very upset at you.

Speaker 4 (24:17):
You would be cussed out by some people.

Speaker 1 (24:19):
I know.

Speaker 5 (24:21):
If you like just get to the front door and
you're not anybody's way, Like I think you're kind of
a jerk.

Speaker 4 (24:25):
Yeah, but I think it's silently yeah. Okay, So how
do you combat this or break that habit?

Speaker 1 (24:33):
And saying like this is causing me to sabotage the
process of making friends. I'm not feeling genuine with people.
It feels like there's a facade around me. And I
want to be sincere, I want to be real. But
if I get the slightest hint that people might be
unhappy with me, I get extra cautious and I kind
of pull back.

Speaker 4 (24:50):
Yeah, And the catch here is that my belief therapeutically
is that conflict. I say this all the time. Conflict
can bring intimacy, like it brings that connection. So when
we're scared of conflict and veering away from it, we
think that is helpful. It's like, oh, that's what we

(25:11):
were trained to do. But really kind of trying to
shift that narrative from conflicts bad that will ruin relationships
or if you're you get upset with somebody, they may
never want to talk to you again. Instead, it's if
I can share what I my opinion, my truth, whatever
my disgruntled opinion is with a friend, then that gives

(25:33):
them a chance to change and you guys can be closer.
So it's kind of like conflict's okay, and conflict brings connection.

Speaker 1 (25:41):
I love that you said that because I think a
lot of people me included same. Our worst fear is
hard and it's very hard for us to and we're
pleasantly surprised sometimes when we have conflict with you know,
balanced humans, Yes, and it turns out okay. And then
after you're like, huh, I was so fucking of that.
You would have felt like gun to my head to

(26:02):
get me to tell you the truth about what I
was really feeling that situation.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yep, I would have.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
Taken it to the fucking grave just to avoid this.
And like you'll do it in your relationships, you'll do
in your marriage. You'll just hide all of your feelings
about shit because you're so scared like that you're gonna
upset this nitroglisser in situation And a lot of times
it's not true. I would probably be exactly in big
a do crimes position if I didn't have the group

(26:26):
of friends or I didn't grow up with a group
of friends I grew up with. How So, because I
mean the same thing, like I when I was home
as a kid.

Speaker 3 (26:33):
And you're always told like you're in the way, you're
in the way, you're in the way, whatever. So you're
told you're kind of trained to not cause conflict, to
just be out of everyone's way, right, and so yeah,
and so like I would probably agree, i'd be in
the exact same boat that you are with when there's conflict,
it just causes a lot of anxiety and I still
have that. But it was different with my friend group

(26:56):
because with my friend group, we would get into like
huge okay wow, and then just be like let's go
hang out, let's go do whatever. And then we would
just do that, you know, and like it was just
a series of like we'd get into big arguments, knock
out drag out fights, drag down fights, and then we'd
just be like, cool, all right, that's over, let's go

(27:19):
trust that process. You just kind of learned to trust
a little bit. Kay, Conflict's okay, You're going to get
through this and you know you kind of grow.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, that's really cool that you had that.

Speaker 4 (27:29):
Experience, but you need That's kind of where I was
going to go. My advice is there needs to be practiced.
So first, changing that thought process to like conflict brings
that connection. But also you have to start practicing. So
I know you said be gay that you don't you
this is inhibiting you potentially from making new friends and

(27:50):
having new connections. Do you have even like one friend
or a partner or anyone a family member who you
do feel like you can just start practicing that. It
doesn't take much. You just need one.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:03):
See, sigment this week is to fight.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
A lot because this is like you know, I often
call therapy emotional yoga, and to me, this is that
kind of feeling of like what an uncomfortable pose because
I relate to this writer, Like if you told me, like, hey,
pick somebody in your life who you have had a
little bit of a struggle with in animosity with and
find an opportunity to healthily discuss that with them and

(28:29):
permit some tension and some conflict and allow that to
lead toward resolution, I'd be like, oh, fuck you, Like
I'm not doing that, but like, boy, would I appreciate
the health of that. But like this other challenge that
Big talks about that he suspects falsely that people don't
like him, suspects falsely that he's done something wrong, and
is carrying that that delusion not delusion, it's too strong

(28:51):
of a word, but that cognitive distortion around and that's
causing him to like pull back from friends because he's
constantly like, ooh, I screwed up.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
Oop, I screw up.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
And so many people in the years of the show
have written in Yeah, We've even had people post scoop
fest right in and say I really wanted to hang
out with you guys more and I really liked meeting you,
but oh my goodness, I felt so awkward and I'm
sure I did this thing wrong and we're like, what.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
Are you talking about? Like, no, that wasn't notable at all,
Like what do you know?

Speaker 1 (29:16):
Of course not, You're you're lovely, but like I think
humans are extremely self conscious and this fear of like.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Whenever they come to me with that, I'm like, yeah,
I did notice that much more. That's that's excellent. We
were all very relieved. Yeah, we were extremely and.

Speaker 1 (29:40):
Now it's gone. How do we challenge that distorted thinking
that we all get stuck into that Bigay's talking about
where we say, I'm I'm constantly fearful that I have
bothered somebody, that I have offended somebody that like I
have created attention and that causes me to pull back,
Like how do we like nudge that cognitive distortion with

(30:00):
like reality testing or what is a method that we
can use?

Speaker 2 (30:04):
How often does it happen the other way around? How often?

Speaker 5 (30:08):
How often are you so annoyed or so put off
by someone just having a conversation with you that you
really notice it, not even though you take action, but
you just noticed like, oh, I'm annoyed by this person,
And I bet it's not that often.

Speaker 3 (30:21):
Yeah, yeah, I would I would agree with that, And
I think it's kind of that again, that idea of
like what does it look like from the other person's perspective, right, yeah,
how often do you feel that way about other people?
And it's like, oh, I never feel that way, Okay, Well,
then they probably don't either.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
It was they're definitely still not thinking about it.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
Yeah, and that's what helped me a lot, you know,
doing any kind of public speaking.

Speaker 1 (30:44):
You know.

Speaker 3 (30:44):
One of the first rationalizations that I had about it.
I was always get nervous in school, like if I
had to speak in front of people, And then I
just kind of realized, like, how many times have I
really been listening to anything anybody has said?

Speaker 2 (30:57):
Nobody cares?

Speaker 1 (30:58):
Never okay, So like ninety.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
Percent of these people are exactly like me. They're not
listening to anything I say, right, And it's like, wow,
my anxiety just dropped quite a bit, Like I can
do this now.

Speaker 1 (31:08):
I like. I like both that those suggestions of normalizing
it from that lived experience. I kind of relate it
to when you're walking around in sandals and like a
little pebble falls in your shoe or whatever, like, yeah,
that's uncomfortable. You shake it out and like that's it.
It passes, and five minutes later you do not remember
that that incident happened. Oh okay, I thought that was
gonna go a different direction.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
Oh what did you think.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
I was gonna go?

Speaker 2 (31:29):
Taylor Swift?

Speaker 3 (31:30):
No, No, like you notice one, oh right, but if
you got a bunch, it's like it's just no big deal,
like it actually, you know, because there's only the only
thing worse than having one pebble in your shoe is
having or it's better to have a hundred than it
is to have one.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
I see what you mean, right, yeah, because now you're
just walking with that shoes because then it's just yeah,
then it just feels that the one will bother one
will bother you. Yeah, which is I think another true
metaphor that we'll probably find an opportunity to use in
another letter.

Speaker 5 (31:58):
It's better to have a shoe ooo full of pebbles, Yes,
shoe full of bees.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Old man.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
But anyway, but the point just being like, yeah, you
probably sometimes do or say something that's slightly off putting.
God knows I have, And I think it's just these
moments where people go huh, all right, and then they
shake that pebble out and then they just move the
fuck on. And it doesn't like endure, right, So even
if we did something that is offensive or bothersome, it
can't be permanent. It's just this quick little oops and
then people just shake that out and they move.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
On from it.

Speaker 4 (32:31):
Yeah. I had a client once that would when they
were feeling a lot closer to a person. So this
isn't someone they would have like met recently, but if
someone they were still building you know, a friendship with,
they would definitely try and rationalize. But sometimes the overthinking
just wins. We spiral still and doesn't matter how much

(32:53):
we fight it, it just continues. But they would occasionally
do not do this every single time that you're like spiraling,
but occasionally, if it really if it really was setting
and you're like, man, is this person upset with me?
Are they annoyed with me? Did I say something? They
would kind of like gently reach out and ask the
person like, hey, like we're cool or or are you

(33:17):
upset with me?

Speaker 1 (33:18):
Like?

Speaker 4 (33:19):
And so you have to be kind of delicate with that.
You don't want to be asking every single week are
you mad at me? Are you mad at me? Are
you mad at me? But if it was something that
was really sitting with them, like I feel like they
were really quiet, it probably is just them, but I'm
not sure. Maybe saying like, hey, you seem kind of
quiet when we hung out the other day. Is there
something I did? It kind of like opens up the door.

(33:39):
Whether they say it or not, that's on them. If
they there is something that bothers them or not, Like
that's totally on them. But they it kind of ended
up reinforcing over time as we continued to meet and
we'd kind of like revisit this same dynamic over time.
They now get to a point where they're like, no,
I know, it's not me, and it kind of reinforced positively.
After maybe two or three times over for a year

(34:01):
of kind of checking with that person, are you something?
They were like, Okay, no, I know they're not. I
just have to sit with that a little longer.

Speaker 3 (34:09):
Used to do that to me, Oh really yeah, I
mean I text him like every once in a while,
I'm just like, hey, man, are we okay? We used
to do that when we used to work together. Yes,
like you would you would kind of checking like, hey,
we're good, right you left? You didn't say anything when
you left, we're good, right, Yeah, But then like that

(34:31):
was years ago, and now it doesn't happen anymore. So
either he realizes that we're okay or he doesn't give
a ship.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
I think I've gotten to this. I just don't care.
I don't give anymore.

Speaker 4 (34:42):
It's an understanding.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
But I like that suggestion Whitney, that there is a
there is a time and a place, there's a right
amount of reality checking to do. It can become compulsive,
and we can overrely on that muscle and we can
constantly see reassurance and then we are creating challenges in
our relationships, and that's not good either. Right.

Speaker 2 (34:59):
We don't want you to scratch the itch so much
that you're inflaming, right.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
So, but BGA do crimes. This is a very relatable
thing and I can't wait to see the discord on this.

Speaker 4 (35:08):
I know, Yeah, this is something that other people, peoples.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
Lived experiences are going to be really interesting because even
just knowing that the people that have been part of
our community for so long, so many people have at
some point shared a story of like, hey, I did
have a narcissistic kind of person in my life, and
here's how I came up with bad adaptations. Here's how
I've had to grow out of that and change out
of that. So I'm really eager to read this, you know,
because I think it's gonna be a really fun one
but great conversation topic. Thank you for this question. It's

(35:33):
a really good one. And I hope that you do
continue to challenge yourself, and I hope you do continue
to like trust that you are a full ass adult.
You're a good person. You don't have to like constantly
tiptoe on eggshell's run everybody else and if they become
offended or something bothers them, trust them to tell you
that or to get the fuck over it. Yep, you know,
because like a lot of times, like you interact with
people all the time, you step on toes all the time,

(35:55):
and like I think about that all the time, Like,
especially since I started teaching at the university, teaching a
class of like twenty graduate students. You're delivering a three
hour lecture, and like I'm thinking to myself, I definitely
try to joke this night that did not work, or
I definitely said something that bothered one of these students.
But then I think, like, Okay, this can either be
the hell they fucking die on and he'd be like,
fuck this guy for the forever, for the rest of
the semester. I hate this guy and I choose not

(36:16):
to learn from him. Or they sleep it off, they
get over it, they show up again, they give me
another shot, you know, usually how many times is he
going to do that? That's what she said.

Speaker 4 (36:25):
They're just jealous that I got there.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
Anyway, we're gonna take a quick break and when we
come back, we're going to answer a question about making
friends as a therapist. Here we go. You're listening to
we don't have any therapy.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
Today's episode Robert or Men, Kala Lansberry, Kevin Chamberlain, Ben Stanley,
Adam Hathaway.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
Dan Martin Live, Hey yo, Andrew Langmead and cham Chad Meg.
Would you like to sponsor the show? Become a theraproducer?
Pictureon dot com slash therapy. I've been up since four am.

Speaker 2 (36:56):
By yeah, no, we're not judging you.

Speaker 3 (36:59):
I'm barely hanging out, all right, this is Are you
smarter than a fifth grader? Continuing on?

Speaker 2 (37:06):
Gim you're up, all right? Bring it?

Speaker 1 (37:08):
How many continents are there?

Speaker 2 (37:09):
Oh? Fuck me? Uh?

Speaker 1 (37:13):
Nina the Pinta, the Santa Maria, I think shooting off
the hip. I'm gonna go straight seven. I'm not even
gonna try to count it anymore.

Speaker 2 (37:20):
I'm just gonna say seven two, yes, right, got it?
God damn I'm good geography. Going to see them or
be able to list them? Yeah, No, I don't think
I do that, but seven.

Speaker 3 (37:33):
Which of these is an example of an Oh fuck,
what's this word? Oh automatopoia. I had to I had
to read that multiple times before I got so. Which
of these is an example of an Automno automni.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
So he inherently has to have options, so he can't
get two points?

Speaker 4 (37:56):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (37:57):
Does he? Or he could just tell us what an
automotopia is.

Speaker 4 (38:00):
You could give your.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Own is a word that sounds like what it is. Bang? Yeah, yeah,
that's spoosh.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
Okay, so yeah your options.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
Mainly, spoosh is an example of an automous.

Speaker 3 (38:14):
Giggle boom jump, friendship.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
Friendship, friend jack. We're friendshiping right now. I think boom
was one of those.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
I think they're doing that when I hug people shout
for friendship and I'm just staring into the sky.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
When a friend at.

Speaker 4 (38:36):
I'll give you a friend that I'll.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
Give you a point for the answer and a point
for having the definition. There go all right, like, uh, Whitney,
what do you call a triangle that has two equal sides?

Speaker 4 (38:51):
Bruce, I'm just gonna say I saw.

Speaker 3 (38:58):
Saucily hardlythy Uh two points?

Speaker 1 (39:03):
Yes, Yes, we are smarter than fifth graders today. Proud
of us were.

Speaker 3 (39:10):
Spending around again. Yeah, let's go one more time, right, Well,
this one? How many bones are in the adult human body?

Speaker 2 (39:17):
We got? Give me options?

Speaker 3 (39:20):
Okay, so your options are two hundred and four, two
hundred and six, two hundred and one or two hundred
and eight.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
Oh my goddess was like, it's low. Two hundreds of
the first option.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
I was like, oh that's that's no never mind, I'm
going to go with the high bar.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
So give me the biggest one. Was it to weight?
I'll take two away?

Speaker 1 (39:41):
Oh six, yes, close, six it was. But Pluto is
no longer a plan. Yeah, right, also depends how which
parties you're at.

Speaker 3 (39:48):
Right, Uh, Jacob, what is the term for a word
that is spelled the same forwards and backwards?

Speaker 2 (39:57):
Oh? That's ship.

Speaker 4 (40:01):
Oh geez, this is gonna.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
You can take options like a bitch.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
I only say that because I know it and I'm
hoping it passes all the way to me.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
It's not.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
Why I could.

Speaker 2 (40:16):
Get it like race car. All right, give me the options.

Speaker 3 (40:21):
Anagram, palindrome, that's it it is.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
Yeah, he chose anagram and wrong horoscope?

Speaker 3 (40:30):
All right, Whitney, Which planet rotates on its side compared
to the others?

Speaker 1 (40:35):
Oh? I know this one.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
I know this.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
I watch a lot of documentaries about space.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
If I fall asleep on.

Speaker 4 (40:44):
Its side, I think it's Saturn. But I'm gonna take options.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
Is it Saturn? Is it Neptune? Is it Venus? Or
is it Uranus?

Speaker 2 (40:57):
But it's that one. It's always on its side, isn't it.

Speaker 4 (41:00):
I'm gonna get Saturn.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
No steal passed me. He can just shout steel. I
just did.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
No.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
He shouted steel like a gentleman.

Speaker 6 (41:12):
I don't. I will honor the code.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
The sure.

Speaker 4 (41:29):
Guess.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
Very good. We're done, all right, excellent, everybody doing really well.
We've all learned something today, Short and sweet. Making friends
as a therapist, Hey, y'all, how do you make friends
as a private practice therapist? I work in an office
space where everyone keeps to themselves. Aside from minimal chit chat.
If we are getting water outside of the office, I
don't feel like I can talk about my job, which

(41:53):
has become my primary identity.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
Thanks Anonymous.

Speaker 4 (41:58):
I think you live in like a weird black hole
because I'm pretty sure like my friends are.

Speaker 2 (42:05):
I don't know how you do that. Like I was
thinking about this the other.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
I think it's a different kind of person that comes
out of social work because, like I have realized recently,
I find almost all my colleagues insufferable. And I think
it's just it continues to be the small sample size.
What's the common denominator? Do you think ain't me? Ain't me?
I'm charming as fuck? No, I just I don't like
it's just I don't know. I feel like meeting other

(42:33):
therapists that I get along with that have a sense
of humor, they don't get an exception to the rule.
A lot of pretentious and they just cannot wait to
be condescending.

Speaker 4 (42:46):
Have seen some dark ship like a grizzly social worker
climbing out of the dirt in their hair.

Speaker 1 (42:53):
They're just not putting on airs. They're just like, I
don't give a fuck anymore.

Speaker 2 (42:59):
Jesus but there is.

Speaker 4 (43:00):
Okay, we're scruppy bunch.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
I think it is different though for you and I
Jim than it is for Whitney because we work primarily
in a female dominated industry.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
Nick and Jim Swinger Club has.

Speaker 4 (43:13):
Like nos allowed com.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
I've had this issue, not because of private practice, but
just because I've mostly worked with females. So finding other
male friends through work, like you can, you kind of
have to go outside of work.

Speaker 4 (43:34):
They have to be male. Well, I mean, I was
going to say, I remember working with you. You were
quiet and set to yourself. That keeps you from making friends.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
That might be part of it. Are we doing the
Nick intervention? Okay, great, get fine.

Speaker 5 (43:52):
They come with you when I'm when I'm at the shows,
when I'm when I'm at work.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
That's exactly what I do.

Speaker 4 (43:57):
That's fine.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
I don't have to keep your I'll go around making friends. Yeah,
you're there to work. Come here doing a gig. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (44:03):
Which I don't think is is I will often.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
Have noise canceling headphones in during the show lugged.

Speaker 5 (44:15):
I can't during the shows, but like when the shows
are running, I'm just taking out backstage.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
It's at least fifty to fifty that I.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
Can get away with. That'd be really funny if when
he's not in his booth, he's still walking around with
the full headset and just the jack is just dangling.
I feel like.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
It's just to go fund yourself, like you'll never see
my jack dangling.

Speaker 4 (44:38):
I was some advice that was given to me before
I started private practice, was from an older lady who's
been doing this a long, long long time, and she's
and she said, if you're gonna do private practice, you
need to find colleagues that you can do staffings like
debriefings with. Like that was her only I mean, I'm

(45:00):
sure if I push, she would have given other advice,
but that was like her number one thing. And so
I know that's not necessarily friendships, but I almost kind
of hear uh the writer saying like, hey, uh, I
can't talk with anyone else about work, And like, in
my mind, that is one way to do that, to
get kind of your work stuff out, because you're right,

(45:22):
I don't talk to my friends outside of social or
outside of clinic, like I don't. I might mention like
a funny story or something maybe a client shared, like
that's not related to anything but like that's one client,
did it I know? Or am I mentionally like, oh,
they went on a hike and recommended that, Like you know,

(45:43):
I might say something like that, but like I don't know,
there's just there. I'm not going to tell them.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
About the real problem. But it is in private practice,
it is a real problem. It's one of the things
that I warned a lot of my students that were
preparing to graduate because like the one that I ended
up mentoring serve working substance abuse, And one of the
things that we were talking about is that's as far
as like fields go, That's one of the really neat
things about the field is like you it's so collaborative.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
It's impatient.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
So you're hanging out with nurses, you're hanging out with doctors,
hanging with texts, hanging out with other counselors. You're constantly
staffing cases, you're running a house, and so like you're
doing activities together, you're running groups. There's a lot of
group and like sometimes you are just playing cards, you know,
with like the clients like it just it's it's a
much more like they're not right.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
It helps. Sometimes you're just planning a little baggies of cocaine. People.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
Hey, that was a couple of times. Okay, I was
I was reprimanded. I learned, but us yeah later. But
like what the writer's saying, when you're just in straight
private practice, it's tough because the only time you want
to be in the building is whenever you have sessions. Yeah,
and you can't just like hang out and like sometimes
other like therapists crack their door open. That's sort of

(46:51):
the universal signal of like, I'm around, like if you
need me, But like everybody can only talk for a
few minutes.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
You have another session coming.

Speaker 4 (46:58):
And if you're just everything is not overlapped. Your hour,
lunch is not gonna be the same as someone else's.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
Your day is based on what you're you're needed you
know that day. And so it's very very hard to
make friends in the industry. And in my argument and
what I've found like really good for me, I try
not to make therapist friends.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
I really don't like, I mean well like and I
was thinking we need to.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
I will pay you a genuine compliment, okay, because the
other day I was just thinking about how insufferable so
many of our colleagues are, and I was thinking, like, God,
it is so hard to find somebody that's just like
hair down, chill, approachable, And I thought, it's so weird that,
like I met Whitney and she's great and like nick
and like I don't but it's like the batting average
is very low for how often I meet another therapist.

(47:40):
Like this person's cool, you know, like Emma, our intern
was in Illinois. I've talked to her through Zoom. Great,
great girl. You know, she's a lot of fun, not pretentious.
She's like, look at my fucking horses and like can
you name them? So she's got to be a bit
eventual when she gets this doctor and she's gonna never
shut the fuck up about it. But yeah, like you know,
it's just it's very hard to find colleagues that you
just like. Yeah, and like this is something that others

(48:02):
other therapists throughout the years of our show have written
in and said, you guys, I like this show because
you're the only colleagues that I've interacted with every week
that I actually like. And it's because we're all sitting
here like bust and balls and being shore women. It's
very hard themselves, so serious, so seriously and it's like
if you bring up anything like God damn, like there's

(48:23):
no room to breathe. Like I've I've hung up with
other therapists and like you try to lighten the mood
with like a quick little joke about something that's clearly
an exaggeration of like oh, you know this thing, and
they'll be like, well, that would be culturally insensitive, and
you're like, oh, would it be?

Speaker 2 (48:37):
Would would?

Speaker 1 (48:37):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (48:38):
Yeah, I'll bet you're probably right. Yeah, building that on
an ancient Indian barrel ground probably would. It's almost like.

Speaker 1 (48:43):
I wasn't fucking serious. Yeah, yeah, it's weird, you know,
like the one joke about Italian sudden Jesus Christ.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
Bippity bopany racist Jesus.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
I mean, Jim, if you watch the news, I mean,
Israel's under attack right now, your religion be saying that
kind of like it's just a bit, you know, but
it's like really hard to just get people to like
take off that veneer, you know. And I think especially
in private practice, because like if you're working at like
a community mental health.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
Program, it's a little bit more gritty.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
Like I don't none of us are in competition with
each other, but like in private practice, a lot of
times people are like always auditioning for mayor and it's
like even on like the Therapist Las Vegas Facebook group
and like shit like that, it's just constantly like look
at me, look at me, and it's just like I
don't know, like it's just it becomes very hard to
just be human with each other, or even like the
weird Sacharine insincerity that shows up in our field a lot,

(49:36):
where it's like everybody just has to be really concerned
all the time, and it's like you'll see somebody post
something and be like, oh my gosh, you know that
could be this or that person probably and it's like, okay,
just shut the fuck up. So my answer writer is
like I've gotten away from therapy as a place to
find friends, but like this is also a big problem
in our field. It gets talked about all the time.
It's also one of the reasons that boundary violations happen

(49:59):
because being a therapist is lonely and it's very human.
You're connecting with these people and a lot of times
you're closer to your clients than you are anybody else
in your life, all right, And this happens where you'll
have like your regular and you're like, oh my god,
I haven't seen this guy in a while. I'm so
excited to find what's going on, and like you connect
with them, and she's like, you just you have a
great instance in your connection. And they even say like,

(50:20):
I feel like we're friends right in your head. Of course,
we're fucking friends. I look forward to seeing them all
like you're the best. And then like you know, they
leave and you're like no, and then it's like you're
not allowed to follow them. You're not allowed to be
like oh we should hang out or like oh this
thing and it's tough and they're just like bye, and
you just like they drive away, you.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
Know, and you're like huh, and it's a very lonely time.

Speaker 4 (50:42):
Last week, say, she's like, she sent me a referral.
I don't know if they ever reached out. I don't
think they have yet, but she's like, oh, just so
you know, sent you this referrals And so in the
next session, I was like, oh, thanks for that or whatever,
and she's like, yeah, you know, I just sure they're
like you know, it's like we're friends, she was, I know,
we're not friends, Like she definitely don't. But it just

(51:02):
it feels like that relationship. I'm like, we're friends. Yeah, good,
I know, and I can't be like I know, we're
I feel like we're friends too.

Speaker 1 (51:13):
I'm just like, Okay, this is hard because remember your place.
This goes back to Nick's cherry pie example of like
they'll go on like we are humans, and I think
this void exists of like, I need friendship too, and
then when you don't have that, it actually.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
Becomes dangerous for therapists.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
And I think that that's a real thing for new
therapists or for any therapist that's experiencing a lot of loneliness.
It's easy, I think, to just gloss over it and
just be like, oh, I'm sorry to hear that, but
you know, it'll be okay for me. I worry about
a colleague who's really experiencing that vacancy because the only
humans you see a lot of are your patients. And
at some point I worry for the health of that

(51:53):
therapeutic relationship because you you have a void right in
your life, and the cherry pie filling of all these
other relationship ships might start to just naturally fill that void.
You may start to glom onto your clients too much,
and that can suck, and like, you're not a bad therapist,
that happens, You're just a human. So we do have
to find those relationships. For me, writer, it is intentionally

(52:13):
leaving the field and saying I am going to go
out and do the normal work of trying to like
find friendship, going to meet ups, going to you know,
game nights, at special things, going through friends of friends. Yeah,
just finding communities like this podcast, like so many people
in our community, you just become real friends with them.
Is one of my favorite things about this podcast over

(52:37):
the almost a decade that we've been doing it now
is that I can be friends with these people. They're
just listeners. I have no fucking ethical obligation to sleep
with all of you, and I will.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
I will getting banged. Just that's so much energy.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
I don't know. I maybe go to the gym a
few times, some push UPSIM will do it did not
get to the listeners, But like, I love that aspect
that we'll go to scoop Fest and like we're having
drinks and nachos with all these people that we listen
to and talk to online all the time, and like, well,
We used to have game nights in the discord. We'd
fire up the poker system and like play poker and

(53:17):
just talk. And I love that, but it's hard to
find organic like friendships as an adult.

Speaker 4 (53:22):
Yeah, something that I've done with other other therapists, which
you can kind of bring in, like each person could
bring in someone else's.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
Swinger club thing.

Speaker 4 (53:32):
Yeah, obviously.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
You can. I'll be trusted not to tell as long
as we're billing for it.

Speaker 4 (53:40):
Yeah, exposure therapy, that's right, that's right. So No, it's
book club, and so I know its way less like
once every three months, uh, you know myself, maybe like

(54:03):
three or four other clinicians will kind of meet up,
and usually it's like a common common therapeutic book, like
Body keeps the Score or like, I don't know, just
ones that you've kind of heard of because maybe other
people have talked about but you haven't read it. You're like,
all right, but when you talk about kind of the
pettiness with certain therapists, that.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Sounds like the worst thing in the world of other therapist.

Speaker 4 (54:27):
No, it's great until you have the one. See, that's
why you keep it small. It's here, I said, like
four five MACS because then there was one that entered
in and they ended up they had a falling out
with another clinician there, and so the one left and
they were like, oh, well, if you guys want to
do a book club, I still want to do it,
but I want to do more like serious or culturally sensitive,

(54:48):
like very specific. And I was like, I mean I
want some of them. I do. I would like to
read a book or two, but like, don't bash the
like light lighter therapy book club because that's still valuable
and those are books that I've been wanting to like
I'm more generalized, maybe like I don't know. It almost
like knocked them like that wasn't a real therapist, but

(55:10):
like we're getting into the real deep stuff, ready to
get hardcore kind of And I was like, then I
feel like about therapistm Like does that make not a
hardcore therapist?

Speaker 2 (55:20):
You say, then we'll get some hero We're an upgrade
to some hardcore.

Speaker 4 (55:23):
They probably did.

Speaker 3 (55:25):
If you want to listen to a real therapist podcast, Yeah,
therapy on the air.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
There's a Patreon for it. Definitely.

Speaker 5 (55:40):
There's always a number when there's a number where we're
all doing Heroin on the show they have.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
To pay for rehab. That's part of the deal responsibly potentially, Yeah,
you might.

Speaker 4 (55:50):
Not have I don't know, an addictive personnelity, so I'm good,
but yeah, I agree completely.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
And this is the thing is like in collaboration with
other therapists, I like collaborating with you guys, Like it's
great to talk cases and like get feedback here how
you would answer a question. I love that, But it's
so hard to find the right blend in other professionals
where they're like useful, they're intelligent, you respect them, Yeah,
but then they're not pretentious, they.

Speaker 4 (56:15):
Do not care all the time.

Speaker 1 (56:17):
Yeah, they throw it away, they're self deprecating, and like
that is just really hard to find. And like, god,
it's just the the more that I've stepped out of
my little you know, uh, private practice hobbit hovel and
like gotten back into the world and intermingled more, the
more I've been finding that, like hanging out with more
professional therapists has been difficult, and like hanging out people
that are non licensed or in other disciplines a lot easier.

Speaker 4 (56:40):
Just to be like okay, great, And you said, do
you struggle with that too? Finding other uh clinicians.

Speaker 1 (56:46):
Friends mostly just because like guy friends.

Speaker 3 (56:49):
Okay, you know, just like I'm Brian who I worked
with the first first job I had in Vegas. We
were the only two men in that entire facility, right,
it was.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
Just the two of us, you know.

Speaker 2 (57:03):
It was a women's rehab.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
It was yeah. That so there's that.

Speaker 5 (57:08):
Yeah, But like it was far As Nick and this
other guy were doing that eighties movie thing where they
were dressed as women the entire time and just going
through all these wacky shenanigans something people wouldn't find out.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
I too, just like menstruating, but like one of them
was in black face the whole time.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
I was one prior to that. Different time was different.

Speaker 3 (57:30):
The program I worked in in Iowa, it was me
and there's one other guy that worked there other than
the other than in management, Like the executive director was
a male, the CFO was a male. Everybody else all women. Yeah,
just one other dude.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
Yeah, and that It's been that way in most of
the places I've worked.

Speaker 3 (57:51):
It's it seems to be female dominated.

Speaker 2 (57:53):
It is, well statistically it is eighty percent of the
field as well.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
Yeah, and it seems to be Yeah, and that's you know, fine,
I'm not I'm not against it.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
You seem kind of against it. That's how I heard.

Speaker 7 (58:05):
I think he said, I think it's cute. I like
senior dressed up in your business clothes.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
I'm all for equal rights.

Speaker 3 (58:20):
I forgot that, uh so, but but yeah, So it's
been tough finding other men to build friendships with. So
it's pretty much I've had to do that mostly outside
and for me it's you know a lot of it.
It just has been golf. I mean, like getting into

(58:41):
this golf league. There's I've made a ton of friends
and we hang out outside of golf.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
Now there's you there you go.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
I think definitely finding activities, building friendships around activities.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
And not around work. I think that to me is
the key and one of the last things the writer
talks about in here. It was a short question, but said,
you know, outside of the office, I struggle because I
have come to see what they say said outside of
my office, I don't feel like I can talk about
my job, which has become my primary identity, and that
I think is an interesting thing because, like I think,

(59:16):
to a person, therapist don't always feel very comfortable talking
about our profession with people outside of it because it
is nuanced. They usually have a caricature view of it,
or they just want to hear the hot gossip, right,
They're like, oh, so tell me about crazy cases. And
that's the default posture people want to take with us,
is like, so tell me stories, right, or can I
ask questions? And if it's not storytelling or question asking,

(59:38):
it's hard to relate to my profession at all. Right,
you just those are the two postures. And it's really
tough because the writer says, this has become my identity,
and so it's hard because I think like it is
very much an identity thing. But then I think a
lot of us have had like different ways that we
conceal it or like push it away, like you've talked
about on the golf course that you just kind of
have like ubiquitous statements now that you use to just

(59:59):
kind of I mean.

Speaker 3 (59:59):
If I'm playing with people I don't know, like, if
I get paired up with somebody else just makes some
shit up, then I always say accountant because no one
has any follow up questions.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
Yeah, that's it, just like oh cool number one.

Speaker 3 (01:00:11):
No, but I do still sometimes I'll get that, but
the other times when I'm playing with somebody I know,
or and we're playing with other people or whatnot, and
you know, I'm just being myself, Yeah, just making stupid,
inappropriate jokes and doing all sorts of crazy shit. And
then it's usually my friend that's like, this guy's a.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Therapist, is all right?

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
I have a quick Batman story that I think it's
gonna come full circle and it'll make senses like it.
So there's a scene in a comic book where Wonder
Woman who has this thing called the Lasso of Truth
and so she gets thrown around people and they have
to tell the truth. It's the best thing ever. And
so there's this part where she's like she lassos each
of the super Friends in the Justice League and she's
out or she gets them all or something like that,
and she's like asking him questions because there's some kind

(01:00:52):
of big thing going on, and so one thing she
says is.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
Like who are you? Who are you really?

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
And so Superman says Clark Kent, you know, and and
like the Flash was, oh fuck, sorry, I'm sorry. Flash
is a Barry or whatever the fuck his name is. Uh,
and Batman says Batman. And it's interesting because like you know,
the storyline develops and stuff, but it's a quick reference
to this fact that Bruce Wayne is not his identity anymore.
Like for him, at least the comic book Batman, he

(01:01:19):
truly is Batman.

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
That is who he wants to be. That's who he
is all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
Bruce Wayne is this playboy billionaire that he pretends to
be to allow himself more time to be Batman, right
and so to, it's all part of being Batman.

Speaker 5 (01:01:32):
In fairness, it's also pretty nice to just being a
billion billion Yeah that's great.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
I'm sure he enjoys the perks. Yeah, but yeah, his
identity to be. I tell that story to get back
to you. I think that if like I had the
wonder Woman Lasso of Truth, which I'm gonna be wonder
Woman for Halloween again this year.

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
So this, you know, we'll do a whole rehearsal where
I'll throw the lass around you. It's a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
But I think that you identify as a professional golfer.
I was like, well, who are you, Nick Tangiman. I
don't think you'd be like, hey, I'm a counselor there.
I think you'd be like aspiring professional golfer.

Speaker 3 (01:02:04):
Now, I'm just a golfer that hasn't gotten his chances.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
You're like the guy who's been Hollywood like stand by
for ten years and it's still bussing tables and it's like, well,
who are you And he's like, I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
A lead actor.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
I just you know, I have not had my opportunity.
I feel like last of truth, you're going to say
something rest for the world sees Yeah, yeah, yeah, then
I'll get my break.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
Yeah, semi pro golfer and they'll know I'm the next
Milton Burrel.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
Making friends with a therapist though, Whitty, do you tell
people that you're a therapist?

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
Come out?

Speaker 4 (01:02:37):
I I guess I do. I do tell people, and
it is annoying sometimes. Yeah, I don't know people as
I became a therapist because I like people, though I
kind of want to know their stories. So probably I'm
a little sadistic in that sense where I'm like, yeah,
I'm a therapist.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
Tell me deep you flow with it. Sounds like you'll
bring it out and they react. However, they're going to react.
You know what to do with that. It doesn't bother you.

Speaker 4 (01:03:02):
Yeah, it doesn't bother me too much. Sometimes I guess
if I really wasn't in a mood to like dig
around or yeah, I'm on a flight and I just
want to kind of like read my book or whatever,
then I just wouldn't talk to the person. But I
don't know, like making friends, I guess I don't know.
I feel like it's hard to make friends as an
adult in general. Adding on therapists like that makes it hard.

(01:03:24):
And then I thought where you were going with the
writer saying like this is basically my identity is Just
that it's hard to separate that because I literally just
said that, Oh well, I like talking to people, so
in some ways it is my identity, like that, I
wouldn't do this for you know, the hours a week
that I do it like, because it is. It's exhausting.

(01:03:45):
It pulls from you, Like you have to really like
this work to do it like or really enjoy some aspect,
whether it's the knowledge, the like coaching aspect, the whatever,
like just connecting with people. You have to really love that,
in my opinion, to really be okay doing that a
long time. But I don't know, how do you like
separate that from friendship? I think it's hard.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
It is really hard making friends is hard, but I
do agree.

Speaker 4 (01:04:09):
With this not being a therapist in your friendship group. Yes,
I just started saying, oh, this is therapy whitney advice
or like he's like that, Hoe's like.

Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
Ask questions about how she's feeling a.

Speaker 4 (01:04:22):
Lot of those were going around on like Instagram for
a while, and I'm like, this is so relatable.

Speaker 3 (01:04:26):
No, I like giving really terrible advice and then saying
that that is my therapist.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
Okay, got it.

Speaker 4 (01:04:33):
Strategy, he'll never.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
At his job. We should pay for beers a job
and Nick's gonna make it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:45):
Not long for this profession.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
Well, it's it's a very relatable question writer, and I
know for all of us, like you just you find
these venues that I think for all of us, like
you know, sometimes it's a hybrid of the profession, especially
in private practice. Whitney's advice I think is very true.
That's like the number one private practice advice people give
is find a crew that you can hang out with
that like you can go over to yeah like that

(01:05:08):
you can you know, get good feedback on give good feedback.
Maybe do a book club, like I think that over time.

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
Like a book club or like a real book club.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
Oh, like yeah, Kamasutra and Ascid Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
Yeah, and I want to do a real bonus. We're
going to do a book club. I don't want to
put ship Okay, I want to.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
Get into it.

Speaker 4 (01:05:27):
Yeah you're the doctor, Jacob.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
But that's solid advice, I mean. But yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
The way that I've been able to sustain the profession
is to draw my social energy outside of the profession.
Though I do enjoy teaching it and I've gotten a
lot out of like finding opportunity to like get more
involved in the industry, but it's just it's increasingly hard
for me to do that. And like a lot of
the other professionals I meet, I just think, boy, you
are insufferable, like that you're so on a mission to

(01:05:56):
be impressive, and like, I think my like vibe is
not that Like as a therapist, I'm trying to be
disarming and humanizing and among colleagues like and some people
have told me like, and this is a good critique.
Actually it's a little meta. But I've I've brought this
up before, and I remember having somebody pull me aside
and say, you know, not to get like a little
too critical of you, Jim, But like there's a white

(01:06:18):
male privilege that you do have, that you don't have
to be impressive, that you can throw away credibility whenever
you want and be like disarming and humorous and silly
and like still just inherently carry credibility that the rest
of us don't have. And yeah, this was a colleague
of color, you know, as female, and said, you know,
I need to constantly be on or I'll be dismissed.

(01:06:40):
My seat at the table will be taken from me.
You can get up and walk around and act like
you don't have a chair, and anytime you go to
sit you'll be there will be a chair for you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
And I was like, fuck, So I take that, you know.
I thought that was really good feedback.

Speaker 5 (01:06:52):
Soough actually yea, yeah, yeah, this was after I.

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
Good luck though.

Speaker 1 (01:06:59):
Making friends is hard. But if you haven't gotten involved
with our discord as strongly encourage it, doesn't think it
becomes this little like island in the internet where people
hang out and talk to each other and get closer.
So anyway, good question, writer, thank you for that. We're
gonna take quick break in when we come back. We
are talking about weight loss journeys. You're listening to pop Therapy.

(01:07:19):
Today's episode is brought to you by Robert.

Speaker 3 (01:07:21):
Brown Junior, Men's Kayla Lansbury, Kevin Chamberlain, then Stanley Adam Halfway,
Dan Martin.

Speaker 1 (01:07:27):
Liz Hey, Yo, Andrew Langlead and Chance.

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
Goddamn, it's four letters.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
I know there's something about I got to move the
order around because something about it's still gonna spell that.
If you're like Shaw, become a therapist, at become a therapist.

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
You can become a therapist.

Speaker 1 (01:07:47):
Therapy.

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
Why have we never done that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
Internet therapy certificates I had of PHDH Thomas, they did
just have your name on.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
Yeah, but for not getting those out, But we should
definitely do like Life Coach certified certificates, Like oh, that's
an easy move.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
Like people will pay for that. I mean that's it's
a pretty high bar to be. They will be like you.
They don't have a jingle, they just get a piece
of paper.

Speaker 3 (01:08:16):
All right, We're moving on into uh Internet culture trivia.

Speaker 1 (01:08:20):
I think I'm in the lead though, f y s.
I got two for two and then I got a steal,
so I'm at five points. I think get best you guys.
I believe you have one for two I have not missed.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):
I believe you missed.

Speaker 3 (01:08:31):
What is the first major peer to pure file sharing
service that was shut down in two thousand and one.

Speaker 1 (01:08:38):
I'm gonna shoot from hip. I think it's Napster.

Speaker 4 (01:08:41):
I have a different guess. If he's wrong, I hope.

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
What's your guess?

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
That's also was a good one.

Speaker 5 (01:08:50):
I guess, and I guess was going to be if
if Napster wasn't it, I would have said, lamar.

Speaker 1 (01:08:55):
If it's not Napster, it's going to be like something
that we're all like, Oh, only the nerds how to
use that? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
Is that the answer? No? Think?

Speaker 1 (01:09:07):
Yeah, Jacob, where was Charlie bit my finger originally uploaded
the Internet?

Speaker 5 (01:09:16):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
I can't say he's wrong. You go, let's give him
to give him to and then list the options for fun.

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
But let's give him clearly.

Speaker 3 (01:09:28):
Here in the tip YouTube, vine, Facebook, break dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
Break dot com. That might have been a vine because
it's quick vine was vine?

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
Was vine?

Speaker 4 (01:09:41):
I guess is YouTube?

Speaker 1 (01:09:43):
It was YouTube?

Speaker 5 (01:09:44):
Okay, it's like one of the first well did you
was like the seven second one or something?

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
Remember the old websites like something awful dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
And eat.

Speaker 4 (01:09:56):
Yeah, like always forget how did we find the was
random ass video?

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
That was the website dot com was another one. These
were like the places you'd go.

Speaker 4 (01:10:07):
To over Thanksgiving. I went to visit my roommate from
college and stayed the night at her house. It was
like the best ever. She sent her kids to her
grand to their grandparents' house, and we just like slept
over and she's like, all I want to do is
go on YouTube and watch old like, oh yeah, all
those old, the random ass fucking videos and it was
the fucking best.

Speaker 3 (01:10:26):
I was like, ah, I went down that YouTube rabbit
hole of watching old vine. I never had vine, I
never did, didn't live very long.

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
I did that the other day. I did a YouTube
rabbit hole of the old g I Joe p s
a joke that was great, and just.

Speaker 1 (01:10:42):
Rewatched all of them, like gold, it's so well done.
All right, Whitney, what green digital helper? I remember? Green
green digital helper often popped up in Microsoft Word Who
was offering to help you write a letter?

Speaker 2 (01:10:59):
It it's not don't don't get distracted by greens.

Speaker 4 (01:11:02):
Not clippy.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
I gotta be clippy. Okay, green paper clips aren't.

Speaker 4 (01:11:08):
I need to see a picture of Clip.

Speaker 1 (01:11:09):
He was yellow. He has a yellow behind him, but
he's a little paper clow. Yeah, he just the graphic
usually had like a little yellow sticky note.

Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
And then he was like, he's just like silver.

Speaker 4 (01:11:20):
That's what I thought. Silver.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
Great, he's like metal paper.

Speaker 1 (01:11:22):
Maybe this is a Mandela thing.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
Oh maybe it is green, the green pad paper behind him.

Speaker 4 (01:11:30):
Maybe they're calling that green. It looks I could see
green if you told me green, but I wouldn't ye.

Speaker 1 (01:11:34):
Also, if the AI people want to like make me
like them better, let's get clippy, like use clippy.

Speaker 4 (01:11:41):
Thank you, that's great, just clippy and you will hook all.

Speaker 1 (01:11:46):
Clip is like, I need your social Security number and
your mother's name will be like yeah, okay, Clippy, we
go way back.

Speaker 2 (01:11:51):
You've written a lot of ship for me. So he
says that Clippy is gray. Okay, thank you. All right,
there we go. I'm in the lead.

Speaker 1 (01:11:59):
Last question of the night weight loss journey. Starting out,
I was a six foot four, three hundred and fifty
or I was at six foot four, three hundred and
fifty pounds. I was finally able to get the VA
to prescribe me with GOVY. The intense change in my
gut biome wrecked me something fierce with my gut brewing
bread and my tail spitting fire. I was losing weight. Finally,

(01:12:22):
with the weight coming off, Nick's challenge to lose the
weight and a certain politician lying on his medical checks,
I had a goal weight. I will lose enough to
equal what he said he was. My goal weight is
two twenty five. I believe that is the weight of
Donald Trump on his license.

Speaker 2 (01:12:39):
Yeah, something like that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):
The wegovy alone got me to two seventy. I have
started to walk a minimum of five thousand steps a day.
It hurts, it sucks, it's helpful. I've realized that the
reservoir of energy I have to walk has grown simply
by doing it. As Jack Lelaine put it. Your health account,
your bank account. There the same thing. The more you

(01:13:00):
put in, the more you can take out. Exercise is
king and nutrition is queen. Together you have a kingdom.
The joy I have with that much weight off is noticeable,
especially when people I know are commenting, Wow, you've lost weight,
You're looking good. My depression is still strong, but my
two brains are in an even match now, when previously

(01:13:21):
the depression was a sumo wrestler and the happy was
a flyweight.

Speaker 2 (01:13:26):
PS. I have already been calling you all my weekly therapists.
Thank you for all your help you've given me over
the years, especially doctor life coach Jacob your find Winter's scoop.
A good letter here, a good letter.

Speaker 1 (01:13:40):
Yeah, it sounds like more of a statement of like, hey,
update about my life and here's my journey in a
nutshell and talking about the mental health component of this.
But I like that bank account metaphor, the more you
put in, the more you can withdraw later.

Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
I like that a lot. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):
Yeah, and I we kind of talked about this, I
think in a recent show. Okay, so you were at
three hundred and fifty, now to seventy. I'm understanding this correct.

Speaker 5 (01:14:06):
So like the drug from the wig, Yeah, it sounds
like the drug knocked off about seventy five pounds right
off the bat without a whole lot of working.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
The goal is another fifty down right, Okay, six foot four?

Speaker 5 (01:14:16):
What I would suggest if walked her daddy stand at
six foot four said, ain't gonna swing with my daughter
no more.

Speaker 2 (01:14:23):
She's my cherry pie.

Speaker 1 (01:14:25):
Tie it all together, boom, big circle. He has a
professional shit.

Speaker 2 (01:14:32):
I gotta change the title to Height of the Dad Cherie,
I think.

Speaker 4 (01:14:37):
You need ladies are creepy.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
So okay, ladies to be creepy. That's eighty pounds.

Speaker 2 (01:14:44):
That's so much.

Speaker 4 (01:14:45):
I was like, that's almost one hundred pounds.

Speaker 1 (01:14:47):
Yeah. Every once in a while you should go around,
like go to a gym or something.

Speaker 3 (01:14:53):
Rab rab Yeah, just walk around, yeah, I mean, and
just be able to you can A discovered that you
just can't you can.

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
That's probably what you're gonna discover.

Speaker 5 (01:15:04):
Like you're gonna go pick up an eighty pound dumbbell
and be like, I can't just carry this around.

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
Yeah, yet you were, you.

Speaker 1 (01:15:09):
Know, And I think that's that's what's so amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:15:12):
Do that every once in a while, just to keep
motivation and realize that, like, you know, if this was
when feel better, yeah exactly, and what's the next eighty
pounds going to feel like?

Speaker 1 (01:15:22):
You know, well, there's not gonna be eighty You're not
going down that far. I mean, but you're going to
notice that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:27):
And the other thing too, that I always encourage people
to do is as they're losing weight, continue to stay active,
you know, because that's one of the biggest things that
happens is you know, people will lose the weight and
they feel good, but the lifestyle never changes, and then
they pretty much.

Speaker 1 (01:15:42):
Just put it back on. You know, take advantage of
what it's like to be in a smaller body.

Speaker 2 (01:15:48):
Right and yeah, you know, go hiking, buy smaller seats
on airplanes.

Speaker 3 (01:15:52):
Yeah, go you know, go bicycling, Go do all the
fun things that you would have done in the past
that you couldn't work.

Speaker 2 (01:16:00):
We ran a subcompact car. This is a really good point. Like,
so we just went to Mount Charleston this weekend.

Speaker 1 (01:16:04):
The last time we went was two years ago, and
so I was pulling up old pictures because we were
trying to figure out, like, oh what did we pack,
Like what was that like? And so like, yeah, I
definitely saw me fifty pounds heavier, you know, at a minimum.
And like we were on this long hike and we
were just talking about it, and I was like realizing,
this is so much easier, Like I just I remember
the same trail. I remember what I was feeling two
years ago. I remember having a really hard time with it,

(01:16:26):
and like I just I'm not carrying fifty pounds, Like
it's just so much lighter for me. It was also
an opportunity to make a lifestyle because the method I
was using was slow and like g ruling, but like
it changes you, like mentally because like you're just going
through that with govy and ozempic and stuff. I think
really gives you that awesome assist where you're bringing that

(01:16:47):
sayety way up and so you're not craving and like
you're just feeling fulfilled, and I think you're learning how
to fill your life and your time differently, especially learning
to break the bond between eating an emotion. And so
it's a huge opportunity, like you said, Nick, to like
get into your new body, keep up that activity, build
new behaviors and habits, and also just discover the new
version of you. If you can do that, I think

(01:17:09):
the weight continues to fall off. I think you can
keep it off, but I like that advice. So this
is an opportunity to experience life at a different weight
and then kind of live in that new identity.

Speaker 4 (01:17:19):
Yeah, something that stuck out to me first of all. Amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
Yeah, way to go.

Speaker 4 (01:17:24):
I am just wildly impressed with that. It's such a
hurdle losing weight, It can be a struggle, So way
to go. What I loved about your letter was you
mentioned that your depression is still strong, but your two
brains are in an even match now, right. And this
is something when I talk with clients about who are

(01:17:44):
in extreme depressive episodes, I will sometimes mention and I
throw a caveat out there. I'm like, look, I know
this is basic bitch therapy. I literally will like you,
this is basic bitch therapy. You're like, have you gone
outside and put your face in the sun for for
five or ten minutes? Have you got moved your body? Like,
I don't even care what it is. I don't care

(01:18:04):
if we're walking in circles, but just exactly, I just
share it with me whenever you take exactly, but I
just I go over the basics and I'm like, here's
the deal. Work like exercise, eating better, all these things.
We go over those things. Not because I think, oh,
that's going to cure your depression.

Speaker 2 (01:18:23):
It's not.

Speaker 4 (01:18:24):
But it helps. It helps make days feel a little
more bearable, not so deep in this hole. Maybe it's
still a little dark, it's still a little dim, but
you're not so far down that it just feels like hopeless.
And so it's like setting that expectation. But I just
love the way you worded that.

Speaker 2 (01:18:43):
I'm going to steal it brains.

Speaker 4 (01:18:45):
Yeah, they're an even match.

Speaker 1 (01:18:46):
Now, well, it's just insane. You know.

Speaker 3 (01:18:48):
I've talked about this before too, but I really kind
of look at like when you talk about overall mental health,
I look at it as like three legs on a stool, old.

Speaker 4 (01:18:58):
Man, next analogy, old three leggy nick.

Speaker 2 (01:19:02):
That's what they used to call him in high school. Yeah, hello, ladies,
corn dogs.

Speaker 1 (01:19:12):
Watch him do the strick with a corn dog. He
eats it in one bite. He just comes out with stick. Crazy,
not what you think it is.

Speaker 4 (01:19:21):
Can cherry stem he can tie.

Speaker 2 (01:19:25):
The corn dog? He can tie the stick into it.
Not very talented. I can. I can whittle a horse.
All these women are just fanning their fail Oh my god,
yours are just picking and eating corn, right, that's right,
just raw. All the farm hands are just staring at him.

(01:19:48):
That snort was okay, the three legs, Oh, go back
to that.

Speaker 1 (01:19:56):
Yeah sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:19:57):
Psycho pharmacology, yeah, psychotherapy and exercise, yeah okay. Now can
you address mental health.

Speaker 1 (01:20:05):
Issues with just one?

Speaker 2 (01:20:07):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:20:08):
Not very often?

Speaker 2 (01:20:10):
Can you do it?

Speaker 4 (01:20:12):
Very very precarious? That one?

Speaker 1 (01:20:14):
Can you do it with two.

Speaker 3 (01:20:15):
Yeah, a lot of people have tried, but three still
it is still gonna be the most effective.

Speaker 1 (01:20:20):
I love that we're starting to see the term psychophysiology
being used more and more, and there's a lot more
research coming out and a lot more see the research
I think has been saying this for a long time.
We're seeing more and more research about it. But now
the profession is starting to catch up to feeling more
comfortable talking about it because it used to be this
thing we just never brought up, you know, and like

(01:20:41):
feeling more competent in it and like cross pollinating with
you know, trainers and like people that are out there
doing a little bit more. I think that's tremendous and
it's a big part of this. So the tripod thing
is absolutely true. It's interesting because I remember my anxiety
was notably different after a lot of the weight came off,
and I remember just no, not that, and not really
sure what to make of it. And then one day

(01:21:02):
I saw research come through on Medscape that said there's
a percentage of body fat and abdominal fat in particular
that is associated with severe.

Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
Anxiety, and I was like, what the fuck?

Speaker 1 (01:21:13):
And I opened this up, and I'm like starting to
learn about Like that is the wildest thing.

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):
Like I would never have thought.

Speaker 1 (01:21:18):
Those two things have anything the fuck to do in common.
Like you'd think of obesity being a lot more associated
with depression because like that seems more cyclical to us.
But it was fascinating to realize, like, yeah, there's this
whole like area of research that was finding a lot
of connection between specific kinds of abdominal fat and like
fatty liver disease things like that, which I absolutely had,

(01:21:38):
and like severe anxiety, and just the way that it
was inhibiting certain like transmitters and hormone levels and then
making you much more vulnerable to like if you have
that that disorder which I have, gad having more episodes
and having more panics.

Speaker 2 (01:21:52):
I just like that is so fascinating to me. Right,
So it's just it's so interesting how all this is interrelated.

Speaker 3 (01:21:57):
Yeah, because like the brain, you know, if you think
of it like a pharmacy, you know where it's got
all of these chemicals that are all supposed to be
working together. Yeah, and yeah, your your body changes how
those the mixture of those chemicals fascinating.

Speaker 1 (01:22:13):
YEA. Also another cool Monday deep dive series that you
could launch is psychophysiology. Yeah, just like small like take
ons of Like, Okay, today, let's talk about anxiety, something
you don't think has anything the fuck to do, you know,
with anything fitness related.

Speaker 2 (01:22:28):
Let's talk about that.

Speaker 1 (01:22:28):
You know, that'd be a really cool breakdown side I
did it already.

Speaker 4 (01:22:31):
Was like, nobody's ever talked about anxiety and you.

Speaker 1 (01:22:33):
Never call it psychophysiology. I'm getting you a cool buzzwordzword. Anyway,
Winter Scoop, congratulations. I love reading letters where people are
managing their mental health, hitting personal health goals. I like
this idea of the health bank account. I'm totally stealing that.
It totally makes.

Speaker 2 (01:22:49):
Sense, and I think that that totally totally is something
that we want to steal from and use.

Speaker 1 (01:22:54):
So anyway, love hearing this. It's a little bit more
of a letter than a question, so we'll leave it there.
But which is great for us because we go out
of the park. Yeah, we're doing really good. I think
all of our answers were terrific on those. We yeah,
never miss, never miss you don't from us. We're great,
We're coming back. We are closing out the show.

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):
You are listening to pod Therapy.

Speaker 3 (01:23:15):
Today's episode is brought to you by Robert Brownie R
mens Kaela Lansbury, Kevin Chamberlain, Ben Stanley, and Adam Hathway,
Dan Martin lives.

Speaker 1 (01:23:23):
Hey, Andrew lang Meet and Chad may Well.

Speaker 2 (01:23:27):
Well, that would you like spost on the show?

Speaker 3 (01:23:29):
We can become a therap producer a Patreon dot com
slash there.

Speaker 1 (01:23:32):
Do you think this podcast could get me disqualified from
jury duty? If I show up with a pod therapy
hat or something and then google it, probably I feel
like that's I doubt it really good reason not to.

Speaker 4 (01:23:42):
Sit there show up. That would be more effective when.

Speaker 1 (01:23:46):
This episode drops on Wednesday, because that's when the Patreon
version episodes drop. They are extended there ad free, and
the discord chat starts immediately whenever this uh the episode drop.
It's always really fun to get into the discord and
chat it up with the people. Hear their takes on questions,
hear their personal stories that were stimulated by questions. Sometimes
the authors of questions are in the chat and they

(01:24:07):
are following up with more deats and and filling out
you know, here's how the host advice you know works
or doesn't work, and here's more information. It's a really
cool place. I will also be live chatting my entire
jury experience, which you know, by the time this episode
drops will have happened on Monday. Let's get picked for
a fucking trial. Then I guess it could drag out
all week. But I don't think I'm allowed to sit there. No,

(01:24:28):
you can't, Okay, yeah, you can't lie.

Speaker 2 (01:24:35):
The gifts, hold up your phone. What's up? Chat a
good way to get out of right, They're just gonna
throw me out. It's your boy, Jim.

Speaker 1 (01:24:47):
So anyways, we wrap up the show and remind you
Paytatton don cop slash therapy. This show is people powered.
You are the ones that make it possible. Sign up
get that extended show ad free a day earlier, join
our Discord community, and also so enjoy our weekly installments.
We do weekly deep dives, interviews, skill shares, research roundups,
and rants. It's on all sorts of different topics, all
sorts of different things of our interests, and we usually

(01:25:08):
pump those out on Mondays and kind of start your
week with a little bit more of a knowledgeable experience.
A lot of fun stuff there. But I think we've
got some new friends to welcome to the therap party.
Who is new at patreon dot com slash Therapy. We
have a new therapod listatitician.

Speaker 2 (01:25:23):
I love that name Listititian.

Speaker 1 (01:25:26):
Welcome to the show. And we've got a new theradactyl
at them Adam Warren. Nice Welcome fam And of course
we'd like to think the benevolent, revered, generous and flagrantly
pro therapy diehards who love you all so much they
give till it hurts that there partner's dirty be and picket.
And we want to thank our bosses, the mysterious and
shrouded Illuminati, members of the fan club, the therap producers,

(01:25:48):
thank you, Jake Schneider, Myra, Robert Brownie Junior, Mint, Smitty Scoop,
Richard Fucking Macy, Judy Schneider, Malia, Leon Cassab, Carolyn Albert,
Kevin Chamberlain, Tess Miller, Dan Martin, Sammy Scoop, Slurtpecai, motherfucker,
Ben Stanley, slapping your face, Sarah Smith, Adam Hathaway, Biler,
t Mike helm Oscar Swanrose, Paris A Sonny Boy, Darren Cunningham,

(01:26:09):
Lib Syndra mcwaffle Team, Monaco, Thunder Cougar, Falcon, Hurdy, Dirty Dirty,
Hey Yo, Hannah, Marie Andrew Langmead, Emma and Tonka and
Uh Pony Soprano, Alina Cody, The Lorian Guy, Brady Malay,
Check Chick, Fillatio, Gabriel, Adame, Sean Sutherland, Max the Ginger Scoop,
Chad mag not hard to say and Adam Warren would

(01:26:33):
you let you do this episode on cut and unattitude
and why wouldn't you?

Speaker 2 (01:26:37):
I think they should have done this a question?

Speaker 1 (01:26:40):
Why wouldn't side projects?

Speaker 3 (01:26:44):
Go to pictureon dot com, slash therapy and thank you
for supporting my mental health.

Speaker 2 (01:26:48):
That's all the time we got to this week session.

Speaker 1 (01:26:50):
We want to thank our landlords, Matt Manninglely's ice Cream
socialo of you who contributed to the show today. We
really appreciate it. Remember pop therapists to keep all to yourself.
Should the episode with the world texts on socials. When
you do, you'll find us at page Sorry, Patrick wind said,
pod therapy guys at Instagram, threads and Twitter, pod therapy
on Facebook and Puce Guy and I'll get all the

(01:27:10):
extra giddies at Patreon dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:27:12):
Slash therapy.

Speaker 1 (01:27:13):
Do you want to submit a question to the show
a pot Therapy, Email us at hoot therapy guys at
gmail dot.

Speaker 3 (01:27:23):
Com, or click the link in the episode description to
be taken to our anonymous Google forum.

Speaker 1 (01:27:27):
I'm Nick Canjman.

Speaker 2 (01:27:28):
I'm looking for more movie suggestions.

Speaker 1 (01:27:30):
Thanks, and we'll see if your appointments next week. I
feel like there's some there's gotta be like a lot
of these classics, but they're not like classic classics, but
they're like good movies, you know, like not Iron Eagle.
But actually, none of your suggestions were reasonable.

Speaker 5 (01:27:43):
I could flirt with all the guys, smile at them
and bat my eyes, press against them when we dance,
make them think that they stand a chance.

Speaker 2 (01:27:51):
Then refuse to see it through. What That's a thing
I'd never do.

Speaker 1 (01:27:59):
Love it gross?

Speaker 2 (01:28:01):
All right, goodbye, everybody. They couldn't teach you anything.

Speaker 5 (01:28:04):
You think you're such a looker, but no customer would
go to you unless you were shut the funk up.

Speaker 2 (01:28:11):
This isn't Greece, Oh my god.

Speaker 5 (01:28:17):
That's also like they're like, oh, you could just go
back to high school and then you can at least
get a job in the stinto pool.

Speaker 1 (01:28:23):
What's the Oh the stenographers, Yeah, wow, by taking notes
for men doing business, business, business, wow, business, Bye everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:28:36):
The Chick's Cream

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