#394: Divorce Ambush, Professional Boundaries, Chronic Depression

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, I watch it.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
Okay, Still the dog is a fun idea.

Speaker 3 (00:04):
I've heard that he like loses his ship.

Speaker 4 (00:08):
Where's the dog?

Speaker 3 (00:10):
Where's my dog?

Speaker 1 (00:13):
Give fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. This is pot therapy, real people,
real problems, and real therapists. When you used to make
your questions anonymously a pot therapyside net or email us
a pot therapy guys at gmail dot com. And now
broadcaster from the churin. That's the gym. That's Whitney. I'm nick.
It's time for some pot there. Well, hello everybody.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
As you are hearing this, we're recording it in the
past and July fifteenth. Every time they hear this they
it was recorded the Also true, but more in the
past than you're used to, which means I can share that.
My weekend plans are to do a little staycation for
the anniversary here. Okay, GV check out the Virgin form

(00:49):
hard rock can give that a little try, and uh,
maybe go see a show. Have you heard of the
show called Emo Night?

Speaker 1 (00:56):
Have you heard about this? No?

Speaker 2 (00:58):
So it's like a concert where they're just playing all
like the two thousands emo pop. Oh my gosh, it
sounds pretty fucking I.

Speaker 4 (01:04):
Think I'm gonna have to go to that.

Speaker 3 (01:07):
Saturday.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
It's gonna be this Saturday, eight o'clock, I can say
because every but by the time the audience hears this,
it happened a week ago. But yeah, it'll be It'll
be pretty fun. So but looking for recommendations, I'm gonna try.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
That one steakhouse would be good.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
No Boo sushi have you ever had that?

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Nobody's very famous? Is it famous? Way it seems like
you ring a bell.

Speaker 5 (01:28):
It's like there are a couple of No Boos in town,
but one of them is at Virgin Yeah, okay, No
Boo is you know, super high end Okay, very good
Japanese food.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
So we're thinking about doing that and then just maybe
getting out, like I like.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
To stay at the hotel.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
As we've discussed last week, I do not like to
drive anywhere, even in our own city. But maybe go
see something, just something local, like another show or something.

Speaker 5 (01:49):
I don't know, just you know, what's right across the
street from the Virgin. What is right across the street
from the strip club?

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:55):
Airport?

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Yeah? And where are you telling me?

Speaker 2 (01:57):
It's like one of the shadiest shittiest strip clubs.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
It's one of the worst ones that I've ever been into.

Speaker 4 (02:01):
We always had intrigued, I'm intrigued.

Speaker 5 (02:04):
The shadiest one that I ever heard of was in
town and uh they closed after like the second or
third deadly stabbing in the parking lot happened like in
a single calendar year.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
Back in Iowa, we had Big Earl's gold Mine. Oh
in Des Moines, that's not real.

Speaker 4 (02:23):
Ye.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
When we went on hockey trips in Des Moines, we
would always go to Big Girls Are You? And the
whole story of like Big Girl like he was he
was he was shot on his doorstep. I think my
God like was written about Big Earl.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
That's hilarious that the epis there was a strip club
next to me called Broken Promises of It.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
I didn't realize how funny that was until years later.

Speaker 4 (02:52):
That was probably like the only way they allow a
strip club, like you have to name it like.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
That's God, that's fantastic.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
Well, hopefully I can come up with some more fun
things to do, because I think that it's when you
try to commit to just staying at one hotel, even
in Las Vegas, where it's like, you know, I'm gonna
do that. I think the pool thing get like a cabana.
The Virgin seems to be really good price.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
There's a good pizza place in the Virgin.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
I okay, so that is a good place. That pizza
place is good. Yeah, I had to try some new things.
I don't want to go on the strip strip, but
the Virgin is like a little off strip. It's not
so far away. You're close enough that you can get
to the shows, you can go do fun things.

Speaker 5 (03:28):
It's right down the street from the Sphere. If there's
at the Sphere going on, well.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
There's Backstreet Boys of the Sphere, yeah, which is sold out.
I totally thought that would be a cool thing to go.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
Do.

Speaker 4 (03:38):
I know, get tickets, I know, I looked at tickets
so long when they first popped up, I was like,
I should just buy them and even if I can't
go or something, they'll resell for more. And then I
didn't know. I'm kicking myself.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah that that, Yeah, I just stumbled upon that way
too late. Like I was starting to see tiktoks of like,
oh my god, look at them fucking.

Speaker 4 (03:58):
The Sphere, Like, oh my god, that's looks amazing.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
And then I saw that it was this weekend. I
was like, oh, that would be so cool to do
for the anniversary, and yeah yeah. As soon as I
looked it up, it's like, now this is just sold out.
But then I saw, like this this burlesque thing called
the Empire Strips Back. Oh that's great. Okay, So that
looks like a pretty keeps over the Rio. Oh it's
at the Rio. Okay, that could be fun. Maybe that'd
be a thing to do.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
Would have to uber Jim.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
I fucking am not getting another nail on the tire
never again. Anyway, Welcome to the show. We've got some
great questions for today's episode, and we're leading off the
order with best friend is unaware she's getting divorced. Hello,
Whitney and the boys. Well, whoa woah Whitney.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah boys, Yeah, here's me, Whitney.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
Who here's the background of the situation I find myself in.
My best friend and I have known each other for
almost thirty years. We met when I was thirteen and
she was thirty. I was going through a lot of
issues at the time, and she was someone I could
look up to and lean on, and we became very
good friends over the last thirty years of friendship.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
We have been in each other's.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Weddings, my husband and I have spent holidays with her family,
became like a second mom to her daughter, and have
been with her through every high and low. I've also
learned that she hid a lot of her personality from
me and many others. She must be the center of attention,
does not take criticism well, has a drinking problem, and
has been physically and verbally abusive to both her husband

(05:22):
and her daughter. All of this has come to light
now that her daughter is in college and started confiding
in me. I've always noticed how demanding she is of
her husband, and I never agreed with how she treated him,
but I never felt it was my place to say anything.
I've spoken to her husband a couple of times, and
his voice is frustration about his relationship. I know he's
wanted to leave for years, but was always afraid that

(05:43):
she would take their daughter from him. Well, now that
isn't a concern anymore, since she is an adult. He
has spent the last few months taking the necessary steps
to leave. Bank accounts have been moved, personal items have
been packed, and when my friend is not home or
when my friend wasn't home and paperwork is ready to
be filed. So here is where I find myself. She

(06:06):
thinks her life is perfect and that the relationship is great.
She thinks that he would never leave because quote, he
wouldn't survive without me and he would be nothing. I
know the truth. When this goes down, I'm going to
be the one she comes to, and frankly, after everything
I've learned in the last two years, I don't even
want to be friends with her anymore. I have started

(06:26):
distancing myself over the last two months. The problem is
I don't know where he is officially filing for divorce
or when Sorry, he's officially filing for divorce. So do
I continue to distance itself?

Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Here, So I do continue distance myself. I do continue
to distance myself and let our friendship? Or do I
continue to distance myself and let our friendship end quietly?
Do I cut her off now and end it quickly?
Do I stick it out and help her deal with
the aftermath? Do I change my adea entity and go

(07:00):
into witness protection?

Speaker 1 (07:02):
Signed Mama Ninja Scoop, Hey, MoMA Ninja Scoop. That is
an interesting situation.

Speaker 4 (07:08):
Oh my gosh, Okay, dirty laundry coming thirteen and thirty,
that's interesting.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, became friends when I was thirteen and she was thirty.
I mean I could see a situation where it's like,
I know you and you are cool older girl that
I mean, thirty is not a girl, but like person
who is nice to me and treats me nicely. Five
short years later, I'm an adult and stay in touch
and we stay in touch forever.

Speaker 5 (07:35):
That didn't raise anything for me. Okay, I grew up
like in that very much. In that, Like, I had
a lot of what I definitely would have just called
like adult friends.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
Okay, uh and like thirteen year old friends. But currently yeah,
that's exactly what I was getting to.

Speaker 5 (07:50):
Okay, Yeah, when I was thirteen, I had a lot
of these people that I would have called adult friends.
Looking back at it now, they wouldn't have said, oh,
I have this child friends. They would have been like,
here's this kid. I know, I like this kid, this
kid likes me. Yeah, like around right. I definitely would
have said that when I was thirteen. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
And like a lot of those people became my friends

(08:11):
when I got older. But like I from the writer's
point of view.

Speaker 4 (08:15):
Yeah, I'm thinking of that.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
Uh yeah with Robert de Niro and his son is
like in the mob and he's just a little boy
and like he becomes friends with the mobsters.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
Is Midnight Run? Is that it? Maybe I haven't seen that?

Speaker 2 (08:29):
Okay, for sure, great fucking movie. You think he's gonna
drive me crazy?

Speaker 5 (08:35):
Now?

Speaker 2 (08:35):
I see clips of it all the time. Rob doesn't
play a prominent role. He's just the dad and he
drives a bus and the mob is like in the
town chess pulmonary.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yes, uh, what's chess prolmentary? Is huge movie? Did he
did he? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (08:51):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (08:52):
And the kids like a weird name like plar Ogeo
or something like that, and little boy like makes friends
with the mob and they keep him around and he's
just allowed to fucking hang out with the mob and
they're just all sitting there and he like brings him drinks, you.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Know, and then he ends up joining the promary. Uh, bronxtail,
now that's it. Bronxtail. Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
Don't look at me like that way.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
What was the question?

Speaker 4 (09:18):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (09:18):
Yeah, So okay, barring the.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
Weird fact that a thirteen year old was hanging out
with a thirty year old fine, but like a lifetime
of friendship and your friend's about to go through this
horrible divorce, and like you've learned all these terrible facts
about like the way they treat their family and stuff,
and like the kind of person that they are. But
I can understand why you'd feel a sense of like debt, right,

(09:40):
Like I've been through all the highs and lows.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
You've been there for me.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
Should I stick around and be the one person who
can tolerate you and like be close to you whenever
you lose your family?

Speaker 4 (09:51):
My thoughts are, and this is if you are really
flying on like this high plane where you can keep
your composure and not get too sucked in to it.
But I feel like you stick around, sit back and
watch the husband files for divorce. Whenever that happens, your
friend freaks the fuck out. She's like, oh my gosh,
I can't believe he's doing this. I say, maybe sit

(10:14):
with that for a minute. I mean, if you're friends,
if you really have been friends for thirty years, yea.
And as she starts to like maybe bash him or
go off on things, I think that's where I'd push
back a little personally, and be like sure, well, I mean,
do you think he has any like what's the word
I'm trying to say, like, does he have a leg

(10:36):
to stand on here? Like any of the.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
Valand friend mirror a little bit y, honey.

Speaker 4 (10:40):
You know, And if I wouldn't normally give this advice,
if you had like a very I don't know a
different relationship with this friend, or if you were like, oh,
I just feel so bad for them. They're getting excided
like I would.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
We're not trying to correct them correct Yeah.

Speaker 4 (10:52):
Yeah, I think just because of this situation and how
you described this friend being not very kind, caring, compassion, like,
maybe try and hold that mirror up a little, especially
if you yourself are like I don't even know if
I want to be friends with them. I think it's
fair to be like, all right, I'm going to give
you this one last shot, like in the dark.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yeah, there's almost some devil may care about it because
it's like, well, I was ready to end our friendship anyway,
so as a last courtesy, I might try to offer
you insight and help you grow. And if you can't
handle that or you're not ready for it, okay, then
that can be our exit, it'll kind.

Speaker 4 (11:25):
Of actually fall anyway, because if she get pissed off
at you, then it's like, Okay, I think.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
You just like drama, Whitney. I think you just you're
for it.

Speaker 4 (11:33):
Name Wow, how sexist, Jim? Is it because I'm a woman.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
I think it's because you like drama?

Speaker 4 (11:38):
That's I do love all the real housewives.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
She's here. I don't think any ever buried anymore.

Speaker 4 (11:45):
Yeah, I know. I don't even know why they or
they're self made.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
That checks out right, self made housewives.

Speaker 4 (11:53):
So yeah, that's my go to is like maybe like
sit with it, because she's your friend, you can owe
her that maybe, and then confront Okay, yeah, I mean it.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
Kind of just depends on what your long term goal
is with this, Like are you wanting to salvage this
relationship or not? Are you ready to just let it go?

Speaker 6 (12:08):
You know?

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, dude, it's kind of a nice spot to be
in in that sense, because like you've got nothing to lose.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
True, you know, I worry that the writer and again,
I'm sure we can trust that the writer has thought
this through. They're not being you know, spontaneous with it.
I get a little bit nervous because if you're only
hearing the side of the spouse who's gonna leave your friend,
and he's confiding in you a lot, and like you're
starting to learn more about her dirty laundry. I don't know,
depending upon what you're learning. I do get a little

(12:35):
bit nervous because I could see it being like, hey,
you're getting all this download of this person who's going
to exit a relationship. There's two sides at every story, sure,
but at the same time, the writer kind of references
like there's been physical abuse, and like if the eighteen
year old girl is telling you like, hey, you're my
mom's best friend, my mom abuses me, you know, and
if the husband is opening up too and being like, yo,
I'm abused, and this is something we don't talk enough about.

(12:58):
But it's a story that I've seen a bunch in
and you know, my time as a therapist, there are
a lot of men who are the victims of domestic
violence and it's really really shameful, and they can't talk
about it because it is immediately seen as pathetic or
the immediate assumption is I'm sure there's more to the story.
I'm sure she was defending herself. I'm sure, you're difficult,

(13:18):
and it really is hard because society will say that
with a straight face, but we don't do that the
other way around. Whenever a woman walking around the black
I were like, but what did you say to him? Like, no,
you are the bad guy in every movie. That is
a monster fucking thing to do. But we will do
that to men.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, they really don't like when you say that. Yeah,
they dislike it very much. Frowns stopped you, Jacob.

Speaker 3 (13:40):
I want to ask the hard question, what are you hiding?

Speaker 1 (13:45):
It's like my buddy Jim jobs every story, bitch, what
did you do? But who raised him? Yeah? So I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
Like, and again I can understand the writers saying, hey, look,
i've heard some things that are irredeemable. I've heard I've
heard some things that like, I don't care what your
side of the story is, like you're beating your daughter,
or you're, you know, an alcoholic at the house or whatever,
and like, I just want these people to get away
from you, and I want to get away from you.
So I don't think you owe your friend anything in
that regard. But I guess it's always difficult because as

(14:18):
a therapist, you hear an awful lot of stories and
then later you discover that that was one human's pain, right,
And there's a lot more going on that you're not
aware of.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
So doesn't justify things. But yeah, I don't know, it's perspective.

Speaker 4 (14:30):
I guess I have a heard time too. I mean
I appreciate what Jacob said, like from his perspective if
he were thirteen, like befriending a thirty year old, that
feels like that perspective. But I wonder if this friend
at thirty was like, I'm going to befriend this thirteen
year old. To me, that also just gives me a
lot of information that sort of backs up with the

(14:52):
writer is noticing about like controlling behaviors, you know, just
like a personality.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Type that I'm like, it's interesting, Yeah, that you would think.

Speaker 4 (15:01):
I'm not gonna blame it, Yeah, say that's what's happening,
but it just makes me think about that.

Speaker 5 (15:05):
Yeah, I mean that was my experience having you know,
adult friends or whatever, but like that's not everyone's.

Speaker 1 (15:11):
That might not be the writer. I was just saying,
like it didn't raise alarm bells in my head because
of my experience.

Speaker 4 (15:16):
But yeah, but that does make sense I hadn't thought
about it, like oh, yeah from a third year older,
like that's my friend because I tell them stuff.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
Or I'd be.

Speaker 5 (15:23):
Curious, like if she wrote a letter in would she
refer to her thirteen year old friend.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
When she was thirty?

Speaker 4 (15:29):
That's what I'm wondering.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
Yeah, she'd probably be like I knew her when she
was a girl and we reconnected later or whatever it is,
or like yeah, she was a great kid.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
There's a part of my brain that thinks if I
were in this situation and I was honestly looking at
this person and I was like, I really have grown
to dislike this person. I think our friendship has come
to a natural end. I'm upset, I'm disgusted by what
they're doing. Yep, there's a part of me that thinks
I'm going to get the fuck off this train before
it crashes. I don't want to be the last person
to touch the hot potato, you know, like this guy

(16:00):
going to divorce you, he owes you nothing. The daughter
wants away from you, she owes you nothing. I'm the
next closest person, and I don't know that I want
to be the person having to pick up the shattered
pieces or feel cold hearted to you when you're coming
to me in that broken state. And if I know
it's coming and I'm done with our relationship, I don't
know I can I can kind of justify the whole

(16:22):
cutting somebody off.

Speaker 4 (16:22):
Yeah, what do you do? Are you just ghosting them?

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Because it's like a hard conversation of like, hey, I
love you, We've been like family all these years, but
I honestly feel like I've come to the end of
our friendship.

Speaker 1 (16:34):
Do you think there needs to be an action?

Speaker 2 (16:36):
I think so because I think after this event goes down,
after the divorce, the assumption is I can now go
to you we're friends. Like if I got a divorce tomorrow,
I would be calling friends I haven't talked to in months,
and because where we left it is we are close friends.
And I would be suddenly going back to like my
college roommate and being like, I'm broken, I need I
need my closest friends right now. And he might be thinking, bro,

(16:59):
we don't talk anymore because I gave up on this.
But like, I was never notified. So when I'm in
that crisis, I'm going to be bringing my broken self
to that person looking for support. So part of me thinks,
if you fucking know it's coming, go ahead and cut
that string now. That way, they don't even try to
like come tip.

Speaker 4 (17:15):
Over the divorce is even mentioned.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
You're saying like, hey, Mominja says like, do I cut
this off now for the tragedy.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, Mom and Ninja just got to divorce her before
she gets There's a part of me that's like, it's
the last one at the table has to pay the check.

Speaker 5 (17:30):
Yes, somebody's got to deal with this if you divorce
her first. Yes, her husband is gonna be so mad
at you.

Speaker 3 (17:37):
Yeah, because then she's going to be going to the yep,
like what a bitch that.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
I don't think that's the reason not to do it. Yes,
it's real funny though.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
I think you just steal her husband. I think that's
the move, and then you're both out of there at
the same time, nice and clean. You said the kid's eighteen, right, Yeah,
the kid. Oh, be friends with the kid, that's it them. Yeah,
I'm good befriend your mom and I became.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
Friends right around this stage.

Speaker 5 (18:04):
Yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (18:08):
Raise the daughter as your own leave her.

Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah, yeah, how we create the joker. This person is
going to snap.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
Well, thanks everybody, and when we come back, we're gonna
be with some other stuff. You're listening there.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Not terrible advice, not terrible. Yeah, I think you're justified, writer.
I think you're justified cutting this person off. I mean,
it's shitty whenever they don't see it coming, and like
you're learning that they're a terrible person and you really
disapprove of the way they're treating everybody.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
And I assume you did. Did that come out in
the letter?

Speaker 2 (18:42):
Did did the writer say, look, I'm treated poorly in
this relationship and she just said, like this person hid
their personality.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
They're kind of a shitty person.

Speaker 5 (18:50):
This this kind of happened to me. It was not
a close friend, but a person that I knew that
I didn't think much of. You know, I thought I
thought he was a perfectly fine guy. I just didn't
think about him very often at all for pretty reason. Uh.
And like one day he showed up and his wife
had left divorce papers in his car. In those divorce papers,

(19:15):
it was you know, here is the name and phone
number of my attorney. That's who you contact if you
want to speak to me. The children are with me.
They'll be you know, we're doing protective custody and all
this stuff. Oh, I had the judge and like had
all the ducks in the row and had it ready
to go. Whoa, and like I found out that this
person who was getting the boot was not a terribly
great person on the backside of his divorce. Yeah, but yeah,

(19:39):
I would have been kind of fascinating to like know
all of the ins and outs and and like know
it was all coming.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
I don't.

Speaker 5 (19:46):
I don't completely disagree with Mom and Ninja here, Like
this is a weird place to be and it's also
weird information to have because it's almost like the information
was almost voyeuristic. Yeah, you're learning something about someone's life
that should Yeah, you don't have a reason to know that.
You don't have you don't have an organic reason to
have learned this information. So it is a little add

(20:08):
place to be. On that being said, I'm totally with
James over there.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
I'd be out that was the.

Speaker 6 (20:13):
Last episode, that's right, Miche Fitness Michelle, I wish that
you would label yourself as fitness con at your website.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
Do it? No, But I think you bring up a
good point, Jacob, because I feel like if you know
this much information about my life and you're my friend
and you've been conspiring with my spouse and planning like
this exit and conspiring with my child, and like you
know that this freight trains coming our friendship.

Speaker 5 (20:45):
Is I think the line has been drawn. I didn't
even think about it from that. Yes, the action has
been taking action already. Aren't friends anymore? Your your ex
friend just doesn't know it yet.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
You're you're asking yourself whether you want to continue the charade. Yeah, exactly, right,
at some point you're the bad everard, you know. Yeah,
it's time to just acknowledge it's over already.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
I agree with James.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah, yeah, okay, uh great, I'll take the win. But yeah, no,
I mean that's where I would kind of come at it, right,
because like, if you get to the other side of
this divorce at some point, you know, when the husband
has nothing else to lose and he's starting to just
air his dirty launder. The daughter is no longer afraid.
I mean, both of them are impressed by your friend,
and like they're starting to lash out, they're gonna mention

(21:33):
and we've told mom and Ninja scoop all of this,
and she thinks you're a bitch too, and like, yeah, no,
the relationship's over.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yeah, you're done.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
It's already dead, you know, that's just that day is
just coming.

Speaker 1 (21:43):
Is what do you want to do?

Speaker 5 (21:43):
And do you want to tell her about it before
that day happens or do you want her to find
out that you all aren't friends on that day?

Speaker 1 (21:49):
Which honestly, both are valid, Both are fine. It's gonna
think there's a right or wrong answer there.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
There's no way that the relationship gets to persist beyond
this unless there's some huge apologetic tour of like, oh
my god, I'm so sorry I knew this and I
didn't tell you about it because I didn't think it
was my But it doesn't sound like that's where your
heart's at. You're not trying to care that, you know, keep.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
It sounds like a big event is going to have
to happen to change that.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
I feel like it's already over, So I feel like
going for the rip the band aid off is a
logical move.

Speaker 4 (22:15):
Yeah, and kind of like going back through the question,
the number one line that stands out to me is
just them saying I don't even want to be friends
with her. Anymore. Yeah, Like, yeah, you'all are right, Yes, cool, Like,
that's it. You've said what you want. I don't think
you owe that to her if you just don't want
to be friends with someone.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
But the next move I think after that becomes if
you've reached that conclusion logically, you've tested that conclusion with
people in your circle, hopefully your own partner, your own family,
random podcast people you know, and you've gotten this feedback
and you feel secure in it. That doesn't like I
don't want you to underestimate how difficult it will still
be because there's going to be an emotional divorce.

Speaker 4 (22:52):
All she goes the witness protection program, right, can't help?

Speaker 1 (22:56):
Yeah, there's always that.

Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah, But like, honestly, whenever you've been friends with somebody
your whole adult life and some of your childhood, and
like you've been so enmeshed in their world, You've you've
become a second mother to their kid. You're so close
to them that their spouse confides in you, and like,
it's even if you tell that person I don't want
to be friends anymore, it's going to be like removing
a part of yourself, like they have been so intertwined

(23:19):
in your truth and your reality, the keeper of your
secrets too, the dryer of your tears. And even if
you know it's time to end that relationship and you
feel absolutely like you're on the high ground on this,
I just want to point out that does not make
it easy. So there will still be grieving and mourning
and a lot of bad process that goes through this
removal and exciting them out.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
Of your life.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
And I just want you to prepare for that, and
I want to normalize that because even if you're like, no,
this person's an absolute monster and I've realized their monster,
I don't want them around. Okay, Again, your brain can
reach that conclusion of you, it's going to hurt like
a motherfucker. So you know, I just think you just
need to keep that in mind too, because that make
that in other situations, I've seen that cause people to
keep reverting back right and they keep progressing. We see

(24:01):
this in marriages a lot where it's like this is
a toxic person, the abusive to you, Why do you
keep going back? And it's like it's familiar. They can't
help themselves, Like that person feels like home to me.
When I'm hurting, I go back to them. So doing
that personal work mom Andinja, I think is going to
be vital for you to follow through on this action
once you've made that decision to go through them. It's
a tough one though, but hey, you know, way to

(24:23):
take the high end of this and try to be
supportive of good people in this. I'm sorry you're going
through it. It's sad, it's scary. I'm sorry you're going
to lose a long term friend. I think there's nothing
here to celebrate. Even if you do feel like completely
convinced this person is a monster. I no longer want
to associate with them. I have all these reasons. I
don't even get anything out of our friendship. All that notwithstanding,

(24:43):
it is still going to be very hard and so
I'm sorry that you're going to go through this. It
is a really sad thing. I'm also glad to hear
that your other friend, her husband, is going to liberate himself.
I think that that's an important thing, and to support
him where you can and support her daughter. I think
that's a great place for you to be if that's
something you can stomach to do and not be in

(25:04):
the blast radius of your toxic friends.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
So I good luck with that.

Speaker 5 (25:08):
Said something about earlier too, I actually might consider the
husband and daughter's state a little bit before breaking up
with your friend. Yeah, what's most helpful for them? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
good point if you talk about that earlier. But yeah,
like that actually might be a real thing. That's a
good point. Yeah, yeah, asking them you might It might

(25:28):
It might genuinely not matter to you. I don't know,
but it might be something to keep in the back
of your head.

Speaker 4 (25:32):
Ask them.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
You're already conspiring with jam you already know all the things,
so to visit with them first and say, hey, I
also think I don't want to continue this friendship, but
I don't want to make my move before you've had
an opportunity to evacuate. So she can't hurt me anymore.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
She can hurt both of you. So what do you
need from me? I think that's a really good way
to get some guides. It's not your responsibility, it's not
your job to take care of them.

Speaker 5 (25:56):
But at the same time, like, if that's something that
you can easily, you know, just have a conversation about,
that might be a nice thing.

Speaker 2 (26:01):
You seem invested, you know, And so you consider the
daughter to be you know yours, So good luck on
this friend, and definitely give us a follow up letter
at some point because this is juicy gossip and we
must know more hot goss, hot goss.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
We are taking a quick break.

Speaker 5 (26:15):
If the daughter wants to be friends with several older people,
think about joining our patriots m slash therapy.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
You can right over to the discord. Yeah, and talk
with all kinds of adult people. Yeah, we do ask
that she be eighteen or older, or just tell us
that she is.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
That's fine.

Speaker 4 (26:33):
Check.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
Nobody's trying to fuck this person. Okay, we're trying to
be friends. You could be platonically friends for eighteen year
old girls. You're making it weird your.

Speaker 1 (26:46):
Why do you make it weird? Anyway, We're gonna take
a break in.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
When we come back, we're talking about confidence and rule
setting in therapy.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
You're listening to pod therapy. Today's episode is brought to
you by Robert Brownie is Junior Men's Little Landsbury, Kevin Chamberlain,
Ben Stanley, Adam Hathaway, Dan martinib Hey Yo, Andrew laying Me,
Chad Bag and keep the La price. I think uncle, Uncle,

(27:15):
would you like sponsor show of course you would become
a therap producer at patreon dot com slash therapy. Will
you yep? Alright, here we go. Uh you all get
to play all the same time. Here? Okay, are we
buzzing into something? Nope? Okay, all get a guess. These
are all fifty fifties all right? Okay, so their music albums.
All you have to do is identify which of the

(27:37):
two was released first.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
Jacob's gonna fucking smoke us?

Speaker 1 (27:41):
Maybe not? Maybe not? Okay, here we go. First one,
the Bodyguard soundtrack.

Speaker 3 (27:49):
With the White.

Speaker 4 (27:53):
Guard.

Speaker 1 (27:54):
What was the big song on that one? And okay
or never Mind from Nirvana? Oh boy?

Speaker 4 (28:05):
Which one was first? Is that?

Speaker 1 (28:07):
Yep? Which one was released?

Speaker 2 (28:08):
I'll take Nirvana as the oldest.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
One, so the one that was that was first? Play
the game. I don't know the right words Bodyguard. Okay,
damn fitty.

Speaker 4 (28:23):
I would have said Nirvana, but now if we're wrong,
I'll stupid flying. I'm gonna say Nirvana.

Speaker 1 (28:32):
It is Nirvana.

Speaker 4 (28:33):
Yes, I don't have to build stupid.

Speaker 1 (28:37):
Bodygut. Bodyguard soundtrack November seventeenth and ninety two. Never Mind
was September twenty fourth of ninety one.

Speaker 4 (28:46):
Wow, that was way closer. I thought that way Wow,
I thought, yeah, Bodyguard.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
I think the rest of these I spaced out a
little bit. Okay, the first one was a little I
was pretty close on Bodyguard. That was all right. Also
never mind okay, Metallica's Black album m or music Box
by Mariah Carey. Oh boy, Mariah Carey music Box. This
is the one that had hero watchrr watch me as.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
That's how you know it's Christmas. Okay, when you hear
Mariah Carey orgasm.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
There's gonna be three weeks of winter.

Speaker 3 (29:36):
Mariah Riah couldn't finish.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
Alright, I'm gonna take I'll bet you the Mariah Carey
came out first.

Speaker 1 (29:46):
Okay, what was the other person Metallica's Black album? Was
that the paint when painted black was on that album?
That's insane and one that's that was not.

Speaker 5 (30:07):
That is.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
You really think he is?

Speaker 4 (30:13):
I think Metallica's first.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
Okay, I also think Metallica's first. Metallica was first. That
one came out in August of ninety one. Music Box
was in August of ninety three.

Speaker 4 (30:23):
Should be noted. I'm winning this game, so I got
to hold on while I can because I don't think
it will.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
Last for one for two? All right, what's the story
Morning Glory Oasis' album or Shania Twains. Come on, over
Come On, over, Come on over baby, I will say, Okay,
it's been who's hard to you? One day?

Speaker 4 (30:50):
Oasis? Which one's older the ones? I think Oasis?

Speaker 2 (30:54):
Okay, two one long I'm serenading you like your guest.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
Okay, wrongs, last one in syncs no strings attached or
Amy Wine Houses back to black Oosh.

Speaker 4 (31:16):
I'm going last on this one, and not that I mean.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
To rehab, but I said no, No, I think you're
first on this one. Jimmy, I'll take in sync. Okay,
that was such a bye bye bye bye bye. Did
you see the tiktoks where Lance from uh in Sync
went to the Backstreet Boys concert at the Sphere?

Speaker 4 (31:36):
No, I love Lance here an awesome like.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
It's really really cute how they did it.

Speaker 4 (31:42):
Which one was first? I think in sync?

Speaker 1 (31:45):
In sync? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (31:47):
One?

Speaker 1 (31:47):
Wrong?

Speaker 5 (31:48):
No?

Speaker 1 (31:49):
Four? Four four?

Speaker 2 (31:51):
I'm two for four one one, Okay, it's a close game.

Speaker 1 (31:55):
Move on, hurry before what happened that I'm going to
crush the game? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (31:59):
Exactly?

Speaker 2 (32:00):
Yeah, these are hard though, and fifty confidence and rules
shut away confidence in role setting in therapy high team.
I hope everyone is doing well. I'm a relatively long
term listener, thirty two year old male pronounser he and
him and a new subscriber, and I've been mulling a
question for a while that i'd love your input on.
I'm a provisionally licensed professional counselor called a LGPC, working

(32:26):
predominantly with first responder patients in law enforcement, paramedics, et
cetera in a group practice setting since October of last year.
I've gained a ton of experience across these past few
months and can identify several areas of improvement in my
therapeutic skills. But one area that I consistently feel uncertain
about is having the confidence to establish, maintain, and enforce

(32:48):
boundaries or rules within sessions with clients. For example, I
have some clients who will take phone calls or read
an answer text while in session while I patiently wade
across from them for them to finish. While I sit
there waiting for them, I often find myself thinking that
I should say something or tell them to focus on
the session, but I never feel like I have the

(33:09):
confidence to actually confront them. On the one hand, some
of my patients are on call when attending sessions unlikely
do need to be available for contact. But on the
other hand, the interruptions often do negatively affect therapeutic progress.
Another example I can provide revolves around our late cancelation
and no show policy, in which we request twenty four

(33:29):
hour advanced notice. Several times my clients have canceled late
or no showed because they were responding to a call
late in their work shift or in those cases I
won't and in those cases I won't charge them for
the missed appointment. But I am now starting to sense
that my clients are stretching that policy because of my
lenient enforcement, and I'm not getting paid for that lost time.

(33:50):
Considering that you are all seasoned practitioners, what tips or
device would you give a new therapist in establishing and
enforcing rules for therapis thanks in advance the train guy.
So sounds like, shoot, thank you for being a listener
and a new subscriber. Yeses, it sounds like am I

(34:11):
getting this right? That he is working in like a
private practice group practice almost exclusively with first responders.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, this is a tough one. It is tough because
I'm so I don't have a good example as far
as boundaries within clinical practice because I've always worked for organizations, right,
And in that sense, it's it feels a lot easier
to set boundaries because I'm working with groups of people
a lot of times, and so it's not just about Hey,

(34:39):
this isn't about respecting me. This is about respecting your
the program, the other yeah, the program, the group, all
the other folks.

Speaker 5 (34:45):
You know.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
So I'm I'm strict on that sense, and I don't
have any problem enforcing those boundaries. However, as a personal trainer.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
Like fitness Consigliaro, thank you. Yeah, you're welcome, I have.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
The ability to charge clients for sessions when they cancel
at the last minute, okay, because I still have to
drive to the gym myself to be there. I got it.
You know, I'm not getting paid for that hour now. Yeah,
I've never done it, okay, because to me, it's more
important to me to maintain rapport. Yeah, and to and

(35:19):
so that's more important to me. I'll take the hit. Right.

Speaker 4 (35:22):
Wait, You've never like if someone it's like five am,
they're like, I overslept, you don't charge their card.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
He just works out furiously.

Speaker 4 (35:30):
Okay, oh wait continue, Yeah, come back.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
To me, see the disgust in your face, boundaries.

Speaker 4 (35:37):
We're gonna teach you how to do this today. Nick.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yeah, I'm actually really glad that Whitney is already leaning
in that direction because I'm I'm like you and so
like I. And this is also so I do want
to validate for a second that first responders as a population,
this is very typical.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
Oh yeah, yeah, and I have the same exact.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
Problem, like if I work with e ER docs, e
m ts, firefighters, cops and like, as a professional courtesy
anybody in a healthcare profession or in first responders, I
don't tell them that I will be lean on the rules.
But when they inevitably text me and say I'm so
sorry I got called in there was a bad thing
that happened or whatever.

Speaker 1 (36:14):
Can I reschedule? I will try.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
I'll try my best to do it, and then if
it comes down to just having to take the hit,
I will. And but that's I can afford to do it, like,
because that's not my only client. Tell if that was,
it would be hard because they cancel all the fucking time,
and a lot of times. To their credit, a lot
of them will say, especially if they're in healthcare, They're like, yo,
I know the rules. I'm part of this life too.

(36:39):
I will be paying my bill ye and I'll tell
you know, like as a courtesy. I'm like, it's cool, like,
don't worry about it, like we're on the the dance.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:49):
In fact, we are very similar, and so I get it,
Like I also know how that is. And I get
emergency calls too, and there's been times I've had to
cancel things, so like I understand that first responders. They,
to their credit, most of them have always said like, hey,
I I know the drill, I know what I signed
up for. I read that policy very carefully. Not my
first rodeo. I will, you know, please send me the invoice,
and like I choose not to write. And it comes

(37:11):
down to rapport building I think is part of it.

Speaker 6 (37:14):
For me.

Speaker 2 (37:14):
It also comes down to that makes me feel good
because like I feel like that's me contributing to society
because it's like a cop. I'm giving a cop a break,
you know, I'm giving an EMT a break. Yeah, they're
gonna go. They had to cancel with me, so they
could go save a bad you know what, I don't
know what they're going into right or I.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah, but I had a flat tire in La Hooya.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
Yeah, you know a hero that person sounds like whoever
that that handsome man that you're describing was, I'm sure
he was having a very hard day and does very
good things for the community. So I'm I'm kind of
like on the writer's side where I'm a bad example
because I will also struggle to enforce that policy with
first responders and healthcare providers. But truthfully, I don't do

(37:57):
well enforcing this policy in general, and a lot of
it comes down here. I know, a lot of it
does come down to like trying to preserve the relationship
and like unless somebody abuses it, once they start abusing it.

Speaker 4 (38:09):
Yeah, when does that happen?

Speaker 2 (38:10):
And that's happened. That's absolutely happened. Where it's like they
just keep canceling, you know, and they short cancel or whatever,
and like, depending on the situation, it's like I'll usually
tell them and we've talked about this in the show before,
but one policy maneuver that I'll do is when they
first do this, I'll let them know, Hey, this first one,
I totally understand it happens.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
I get it.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
But because this spot was taken, somebody else couldn't take this.

Speaker 5 (38:35):
Spot and said his thing like, yeah, just because you're
not in a in a you know, a group run
facility or the type of thing that Nick was talking about.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yo, you can still definitely say you can't.

Speaker 5 (38:48):
I'm betting there aren't enough slots in your program there right.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
For all the people that are trying to to get help.

Speaker 5 (38:56):
Uh, you know, that's just usually a safe assumption I
think in these in these scenarios, Yeah, yeah, you can just.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
Just listen, genuinely be and truthfully. That's how I justify it.

Speaker 5 (39:06):
You just don't like someone else wants this spot. Yeah,
when I'm terrible, like they're fucked.

Speaker 2 (39:12):
I don't like to bring up to the client because
I've seen other therapists very indelicately bring up things like
I need to get paid or something that, and I
don't like that language. It shines too bright of a
light on the reality that I am also a professional
healthcare provider, and it distracts you from the work I
want you to do. So I try to hide that,
and I'll usually say it more subtly like it. I
don't bring up me getting paid, but I'll say something

(39:33):
the effect of like my wife is a bitch. She's
a bit, she's gonna, she's gonna, she's gonna eat this money.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
Man. She shakes me down.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
No, but it's like, okay, look, I'm sorry, Like you're
taking up a spot that other people were requesting. I
do get texts every morning where somebody says, if anything
opens up, please let me know. If I can fill
that spot, you're good, but if I can't, I am
gonna have to bill you. And and that's just about
keeping spaces open for people that need that.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
And if you want to do a courtesy, you could
do like I'll do the first one. The first one.

Speaker 5 (40:01):
I'll give you a courtesy on that one. And I
was gonna say also like like for instance, in your
First Responders, James, when when people come to you and
and say, you know, like hey, I wasn't able to
get in, uh you know, but please please build me
for it. Yeah, you could even you know your practice
is to turn around and say I'm not going to
bill you for it, let's just do better.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
But I could I could just say okay.

Speaker 5 (40:24):
Also an equally acceptable response would be like, hey, I
appreciate that. Uh, hey, I will I will cut you
a little a little deal though. I do this for
some people in the in the industry, kind of an industry.
Uh uh, you know, I'm doing you a favor. It's
only a half bill.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
Right, and just remember me, if I come to your hospital, Kip,
that's a lot. I'll give you a half bill.

Speaker 1 (40:43):
On this session. You cut my medical bill in half.
That's whatever needs to do the quadruple bypass. Yeah. Yeah,
so I don't know.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
So that's how I manage it. I want to circle
around in a second and talk about session etiquette. Uh,
with the phones and stuff, but how do you handle this?
What are your feels on this?

Speaker 6 (40:59):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (40:59):
With the billing, I definitely do what you mentioned, Jim,
giving a courtesy first cancelation. I have this issue working
with insurance. Here's what I get told. I don't know
if I've shared this on here before or not, but
what I will get told is, oh, you know what,
I can't make it, but go ahead and bill still
you insurance?

Speaker 1 (41:19):
Yeah, like commit fraud? Go ahead.

Speaker 4 (41:21):
Yeah, They're like, just go ahead and bill it. It's fine,
Like you know, it's fine, like it's their decision. I'm like,
oh yeah. So that's when I come back with the Hey,
normally there's a cancelation feed that is the cost of
your what I charge or what we agreed upon with insurance.

Speaker 2 (41:34):
It's not the copey, it's what the insurance would usually.

Speaker 4 (41:37):
Yes, and so, and I do give a lot of
leeway because I know, right because I do have.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Question, you'll get fifteen bucks.

Speaker 4 (41:46):
I do have a lot of younger women that I
meet with and young men. But like a lot of
younger women, they will they don't know. They are just like, oh,
they don't understand how these things work. And so it's like,
oh no, and they they might think, yeah, clocks right,
and they might think like, oh, I'll just owe my copay.
And so then I make it clear that typically if
I do charge those late cancelations, it will be the

(42:08):
cost of what your insurance pays. I tell them what
that is, this is what that looks like. But you know,
I know, things happen like you get this one break whatever,
or you get a break.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
Now, so this time, will let it go be advised
in the future of it happens again.

Speaker 4 (42:23):
I do have to bill you that number, yes, and
sometimes what I will do, Like I have a client
that I worked with recently. They had a lot, they
had a high needs child, and I'm like, you can't
predict those things like things, so I was much more leaning.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
Oh my god.

Speaker 4 (42:48):
But yes, I try and be very lenient with her
because I know there's already a lot on her plate.
You know, I'm therapy isn't here to add more stress.
But I'm telling you, like nine times out of ten,
like I will have that response like, hey, I I
stayed out late last night. I'm not going to make
it in today when I was doing in person, like
you know, I'm not going to make it in today,
or oh I forgot I'm out of town this week

(43:10):
or something like that. I know you still have to
have to bill me, And I'm like, okay, thanks to
let me know, Yeah, I will this time, have a
good time on your thing whatever. Like I keep it
very casual, and I have found that it really usually
does not, especially if they're the ones mentioning that I
know you got to bill me.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
That helps a lot.

Speaker 4 (43:26):
It really doesn't hurt our report doesn't seem like it does.
They come in the next week I've done that with
personal training before, where like I was having my own
like get a little mental breakdown from my own shit
going on, Like I'm not going to the gym to
I'm not going to go beat my trainer and just
be crying for half the time, Like, yeah, I got
to cancel today and charge my card. Yeah, the like

(43:48):
ninety bucks or whatever it is, I just charge it.

Speaker 5 (43:50):
And also, like we're talking about first responders and different
people like knowing the ropes and saying like, oh, you
have to charge me for this, I like the half delay.
Everybody knows about this, right, everyone understands what an appointment is. Yeah,
I'm not a doctor. Well I am a doctor. Yeah,
I'm not a medical doctor. Correct, I'm a PhD.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
Neither was I not right?

Speaker 5 (44:11):
And uh, you know, as someone who is not a
medical doctor, when I make a doctor's appointment and if
I know show for that doctor's appointment, I understand that
I'm inconveniencing professionals. Right, I under say that I'm inconvenient.
That's like I don't have to be in their industry
to know that not no showing for an appointment is
an inconvenience, right, possibly even rude, depending on what the circumstances.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
And I think what we're all doing for you, writer,
is normalizing that. It does feel weird that our first
instinct is to just be kind and be you know,
that's why we got into this professions. We care about
these folks and we admire them. They're they're out there
doing hard things and we really want to support them,
and we're really glad that they're getting help. But we're
also trying to instill a little bit of that confidence.
Here's how you do this, Like, here's how as a

(44:57):
veteran professional will say these words. Here's how we'll say, Hey,
the first I'm gonna let this one go, so don't
worry about it, no pressure, but f YI, in the future,
here's how I do this. And you can use my
language of because we do have to know in advance
that we can fill that spot, or you can use
Whitney's language of hey, I do have to build insurance
or in this case, I can't bill insurance. But you know,

(45:18):
our clinic policy is X. Like if you can get
away with referring to the clinic, that.

Speaker 4 (45:23):
Helps a lot.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's got to be a policy, right,
And that's what.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
It doesn't help me because my clinic is named after me,
it's clearly my call. And sometimes I've made that joke.
If the rapport is really good and they get the bit,
I'm like, yeah, old man, jobin makes me do this.

Speaker 1 (45:39):
I'm like okay.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
But like for my interns, that works really well because
they can just say our clinic policy is X. It's
not my call, Like there really is a clinical director
is this way?

Speaker 3 (45:51):
Get your ass back in that fucking box.

Speaker 1 (45:53):
I told you stay in there. Stay in the dog box.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
It's a dog box for dogs and interns. So yeah,
so writer, we're trying to give you that that kind
of idea that there are ways to spin this. You are,
but I like that you're nervous about it because I
have seen therapists go the other way.

Speaker 4 (46:10):
Yeah, you don't want to do that. I need to
get my money.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
Oh man, it might be really weird.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
We've had people over the years right in about weird
no matter what profession you're in. Yeah, it's fucking weird
where they're just like, Okay, well, I'm gonna have to
charge it because you're late, and I'm gonna charge because
you missed it, Like there was somebody who wrote it
in a few weeks ago that was like the therapist
fucked up. Yeah, and they still build the client and
call them out on it. It's like, dude, the stuff
it's dumb. Yeah, So I like a therapist like you writer,
who is more sensitive to this. But I also want

(46:38):
to respect because we earn our livings the same way
you do. You bills to pay, and you can't call
the grocery store and say, I'm sorry, I had some cancelations,
so can I get these groceries half off? Like, it's
not how this works. Your your kid's tuition still has
to be paid at the daycare, like mortgage still is
due rent still, so at the end of the day,
it is proper to assess the fee. I'm a big

(46:59):
fan of fully informed consent, though, in the very first session,
going over this detail, taking the time to talk money.
In that first session, that's when that's the most prepared. Yeah,
that's when they're the most prepared to have that conversation.
So making sure they get it and ask them do
you have any questions about this? Don't tell them that
you give a freebie on the first one. Don't tell

(47:20):
them there's a mulligan, prepare them for this, and then
when they cancel, if you want to give them the
mulligan and use that as your reminder opportunity. Now they've
gotten two warning shots. And then when they do it again,
that's when you say, oh, shoot, I'm sorry to hear that.
If I'm able to fill that session, I'll be able
to waive this. If I'm not the clinic policy as

(47:43):
we do have to assess that fee we talked about
in the first session. I hope you understand that's it.
And then ultimately you let them deal with this and
like again, they are helping professionals too, they understand it. Now,
what are your thoughts on the patient using their tech
answering phone? And we got to keep in mind this
is a special population. These are first responders. When their

(48:05):
phone rings, they are conditioned to reach forward immediately because
it could be a big thing. Even if they're off
the clock quote unquote their partners aren't you know, like
there's other things going on.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
Can you just tell me, like maybe if you can
be mindful of it. I here's what i would do,
because I'm kind of passive aggressive. I would put a
sign on the wall okay, honestly and just or like
a sign someplace that's visible with like cell phone lying
through it. Yeah, and something to the effect of, let's
make an agreement. I'll stay off my phone, you stay

(48:35):
off yours. Yeah, just like, hey, this is a both
a two way street here. I like using some humor
on this.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
I like that as a good mitigation straight because calling
them out I think can be tension and I think
you can rupture the relationship.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
But being playful. Yeah, there's that sign you know that
pools used to say where we don't swim in your toilets,
don't be in our pool. Yeah, do the same thing,
like don't answer your phone and I won't be in
your pool. Yeah, there's that. They'll get it. Don't send
that text that I won't be on your phone.

Speaker 2 (49:04):
So Nick, you would kind of use playful energy or
have an actual sign something that communicates this as a
policy and something we can remind them on to redirect them.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
Yes, but also understanding with that specific population. Yeah, and
if that's the case, Like if I'm working with someone
who's a first responder, you know, I will say like, hey,
you know I've got these science here. I would appreciate
it if you can, if you're able to, you know,
have somebody cover for you for an hour. I like
that do something like that to make yourself present and
available for the session. That would be ideal. I understand

(49:39):
obviously there's situations you're gonna have to answer.

Speaker 5 (49:41):
It's also a great conversation to have that first day
when you're having a conversation about the translation fees.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
Especially when they introduce themselves during the intake and you
understand what their their professional role is.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
Writer.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
You have enough lived experience now that you can anticipate
that and say so listen. I've worked with a lot
of first responders. Our program specializes in ite. The things
I think all of you have in common is you're
extremely responsive to your technology because lives could be on
the line. So here's the agreement I want to make
with us. I want this time to be about you
and not the many, many people that you're responsible for helping.

(50:14):
I'm here to help you today, and so while we're here,
I'm gonna ask that this be your focus, that you
be your focus, and that unless it is a true emergency,
you try to stay off the phone.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
I would even say something, I mean if I'm gonna
word it how in my way, how I would speak,
I would say something the effect of, I know this
is very important to you. I trust that you'll make
every effort. Oh, I like that. Present, I like that.
But I do understand you're gonna have to say some
phone calls.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
But I do trust that you and then picking your battles,
you know, because then if they go okay, thank you,
and then they keep compulsively checking their phone, I don't know,
make that part of therapy, not in a confrontational way,
but ask like, you know, like, hey, you still on
your phone. Yeah, I see that You've had to check
your phone over and over again. Is everything okay? Well, yeah,
everything's fine. Just my daughter should checking on this. My
wife wants to over the milk. Is so let me

(50:59):
ask you about your stress. Let me ask you, is
it is it tough sometimes that I mean, you're literally
scheduled at a therapy appointment in the world just keeps
barking up the tree.

Speaker 1 (51:08):
What's that like for you? It looks like you're on
pornhub again. Yeah, you can't make it. I told you,
I told you I have to check it on my
daughter's work.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
Yeah, christ Jesus nice Jacob, why what are your thoughts
on Uh, you know, the daughter being a porn hub star.

Speaker 4 (51:26):
Yeah, well good for her. It's positive.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
Nobody's going to the site for her. Yeah, it's a
big website. Your brows to me. I let you know, feedback,
I have notes.

Speaker 4 (51:41):
Yeah. I kind of like the idea bringing into therapy
if over time it has been a consistent issue and
you've done already what Jim said, where it's like, hey,
I noticed you're you're answering your phone. Yeah, I'm stressed
about X y Z. You can address the stress. But
I also think bringing in like bringing awareness to sort
of what like Jacob said, bring awareness to the fact

(52:03):
that they're looking at their phone or answering their phone.
I would even try something like, well, do you feel
like you're getting the most out of our sessions together? Like,
how do you feel like they're going I actually do
this pretty often in sessions. I do try and ask
for some feedback, like Hey, at the end, is there
anything you wish we would have talked about today that

(52:24):
I want to ask about? And I think this kind
of falls into that category of like, yeah, are you
getting what you want out of it? Because I'm imagining
if I'm a client in a session and I want
I mean, I've been in therapy appointments and I've had
an urge to like check a text because something's going
on outside of session or whatever that's personal, and I'm like, no,
don't do that, Whitney, like that's gonna fuck up like

(52:44):
the vibe right now. But I can imagine if you
weren't a therapist and a therapy session, you might have
like the casualness of like, oh, I can just check
my phone while while I'm chatting with my therapist, but
not fully aware of how disruptive that is to the flow.
So I think the therapist asking or you you writer,

(53:05):
asking your clients like, hey, how do you feel when
you're answering the phone? Does that feel like it disrupts
our flow? Because every now and then, I'll have maybe
especially a little ADHD client baby who's like in, they're
and they kind of want to do other stuff while
we're meeting, right, And that was really hard in the
beginning for me. Really they kind of need it, they
need to do those things, maybe not check their phone,
but it's things that I would call distracting at times

(53:28):
with any other client, but they actually function better that way.
So if they say, no, actually I like this, I
feel fine, like we're flowing whatever. Even if you don't agree,
I think you have to just kind of off like
own that in the moment and just say okay, I'm
going to respect that perspective and maybe ask again later,
checking again one more time later, like asking them again,

(53:48):
how are you feeling the flow is going well?

Speaker 5 (53:50):
You can even say like, oh, you feel like you
feel like we're flowing well, you know, I'm noticing little
things that can easily just be me. Maybe just keep
it in the back of your head. They're like, yes,
let's be mindful about how this flow is continued.

Speaker 4 (54:04):
I want to make sure it's not disruptive. Yeah, kind
of calling it out without being like you're disrupting our
sessions but not correcting.

Speaker 5 (54:11):
Yeah, Like, I'm curious, I'm noticing this. That doesn't mean
that it has to be true, but I'm noticing this.
So let's you and I just be mindful of this.

Speaker 1 (54:19):
Yeah, yeah, ver, I like that. I think all of
these are gentle ways.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
But if this is your population and you're noticing this
population has some specific tendencies, it's In my opinion, that's
a great advantage because for me, I sporadically get first responders,
and I will not be thinking I need to get
ahead of this problem because it's been a while since
this sad last night. But if my clinic kind of

(54:44):
specializes in that population, I know it's going to happen,
and so I can anticipate that during intake and say so,
some of the realities of this job are unique. I've
been lucky enough to get to know people in your profession.
I've seen some patterns. There's gonna be some things about
your life that I kind of know a little bit
more about and can anticipate. There's gonna be things that
are unique to your life you're gonna have to teach
me about. Also, by the way, there's realities about your

(55:05):
job and you're getting called in. So here's the special
ways that we're going to anticipate that. Or with your tech,
you know, I realized you could your tech vibrates, and
you're not a person who just goes, oh, the phone vibrated.
I'm sure that's just a notification from Facebook. Your brain
might think, are shots fine, I'm getting called it? Yeah,
there's something bad happening. I know my friend is going
on a bus today. That could have been an up.

Speaker 1 (55:27):
Plus who has Facebook notifications turned off? A psychopaths. That's
a cyclic.

Speaker 4 (55:34):
I was going to say, iPhones now there do not disturb.
You can set like customized ones where it's just like
all right, do not disturb everyone except for people, right, Yeah,
it's an auto respond you know.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
It's funny.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
Before I left the office and went straight telehealth, I
was actually the process of buying what's that box called
that you put tech in.

Speaker 4 (55:59):
You put your phone in and it locks and it
won't like it like.

Speaker 2 (56:01):
Blocks all e m V weights or whatever, so that
you can't hear you anymore.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
It's like dead.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
It's something box. It's not a Freudian box. Yeah, but anyway,
whatever that thing is called. I had heard of another
therapist doing that because the content they were discussing in
session was showing up in ads on Instagram.

Speaker 4 (56:24):
I will talk about like a client will talk about
their their vacation. They're going on I'm not kidding, I
will be like on later and I'm like ship.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
Yeah, And so like that became a thing for me.
Where box that's it? But yeah, our cage Faraday.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
Cage, Fverday cage they make like bags they walk.

Speaker 2 (56:44):
Yeah, yeah, they make kids do it at schools, But like,
I think there's value to that. I mean, obviously this
is an adult you're dealing with. If they don't want
to do that, then I wouldn't, you know, ask them
to that's too much. But I have had people that
have said I want privacy, and like they'll leave their
phone in their car, but in Las Vegas can't always
do that because it'll melt, so like we would have
a Faraday cage just put it into and be like, Yo,
this protects you from your phone picking up ads from

(57:09):
the very private ship you're telling me about. And I
don't know what's going to happen, Like you're sitting here
talking about I don't know, having an affair, and then
like you go home and I don't know if like
how your phone talks.

Speaker 3 (57:19):
To your IP address, right Jesus Christ, what.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
It was a time machine to take you back? Yeah? Yeah,
like when finishing.

Speaker 2 (57:33):
Yeah that's what I heard still this morning. Yeah, I
mean I saw an account. They don't charge me as much. Yeah,
it's like the Google auto finishing your search query and
the dad sits down and it says like how do
I And he types it in and says like, how
do I know if I'm pregnant? And like he runs
over and gets his daughter and like what the fuck
and it's like that's it. So yeah, So anyway, writer,

(57:55):
I think that there's a lot of ways to anticipate
these things. You're lucky enough to have the same population
over and over again building up that confidence to do
it is again, it's not about imposing ourselves. It's not
about seeing ourselves as professionals worthy of the fee. I
think that a lot of other therapists get really preachy
about that on LinkedIn and shit, and I just kind
of find it gross. I just think it's about being

(58:16):
able to run an effective practice that allows you to
do this full time so that you can be present
when they need you to be present. And like they
get that, you know, they get called to, you know,
response to things, and then get dispatch calls them again,
says never mind, everything's all clear. They still get paid
for the hour. They're still on the clock, and they
understand that whether they answered it or not, they're getting paid,

(58:37):
and there's a reason they need to be available to
do that and like that's the concept of that profession.
So you are in good company. It's something we all
struggle with. There's a lot of ways to do this
so that you can just get it done. But I
really am a big fan of lots of informed consent,
making it very clear at intake what the you know,
normal standards are giving them a mulligan if you can,
and then circling back around and saying, hey, we are

(58:58):
going to have to build that card on file or
if you don't have a card on file, to submit
an invoice them and say we can't schedule your next
appointment until this is complete, because a lot of times
you'll end up with debt, Like they'll I have people
that like have outstanding invoices and it's like, okay, we're
you know, going on and on here and like you're
piling up on invoice. Remember in the early days of
my practice, I would allow that and they'd be into
me for a thousand bucks. I'd be like, this is

(59:20):
getting hard, Like I this is too much like now
it's distracting me from my therapeutic focus and can't have that.
So anyway, a very relatable question. The train guy congratulations
on your career.

Speaker 1 (59:30):
Good luck.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
Make sure you go to patron dot com slash therapy
and throw us some of your cancelation money.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
By the way, we can keep doing what we're doing.

Speaker 2 (59:37):
We're gonna take aquick break and when we come back
we are talking about thing.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
Because I already answered this one. Wait what yeah, we
switched those questions. Oh yeah, so okay, it's a question.
It's good. Don't worry, It'll be great. I'll stick it out. Yeah,
it'll be great. All right. Today's episode is brought to
you by Robert Brown Junior Men's Kayla Lansbury, Kevin Chamberlain,
Ben Stanley, Adam Hathway, Dan Martin, Hey, Andrew laying me
Chad meg and would you like to smise to the

(01:00:05):
show become a therap producer Patreon dot com. Are we
already on the third question?

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
That's what I got confused about all of a sudden,
I just forgot ship.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
Okay, we're get close to the end of a double
a double recording day. We're all a little confused thing
together now, all right, here we go the Marshall Mathers
l P.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Damn it that such a fucking good album?

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Or come away with me? By Nora Jones, Come Away
with Me to ane of the playing? Which album the
Marshall Math.

Speaker 4 (01:00:36):
Original, Slim Shady, the Real Shady.

Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
All the other slim Shadies are just imitating swim.

Speaker 4 (01:00:41):
I'm going with Shady. One is Nora Robert, Nora Jones, her, yes, Roberts.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
Yeah, I think it's Nora Jones's whatever, Nora Jones. That's
my pick too. Okay, fuck it, slim Shady, It's not
gonna be. It's gonna be Nora Jones. But I'm taking
it for the games. Would it was the Marshall Mad.

Speaker 4 (01:01:06):
Make the Comeback?

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
Oops I did it again by Britney Spears or Human
Clay by Creed?

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
Oh all right, so I remember when Britney Spears' album.

Speaker 4 (01:01:17):
Came out because You're Sexual Awakening.

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
Yet another Awakening. But this was not It was a
big first album. This wasn't Oops I did it again. No,
this was Oops I did it again. That's not her
first second on the first one Baby one Baby, never mind, Okay,
good point. I was thinking of hit me baby, oh man, okay.

Speaker 4 (01:01:40):
First last time. So someone else gets was what was
the option?

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
Was Brittany or who Human Clay Creed? Creed I'll take
Brittany Creed. Creed was a young upstart.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
Creed, but that's Christian period that they did at the
beginning of Man, all right, we're going I'm betting based
on the title human Yeah, that makes right back in time? Yeah.
Born to Run by Bruce Springsteen okay? Or the Rumors
album by Fleetwood Mac Rumor has it?

Speaker 5 (01:02:11):
Rumors one of the best like full albums ever absolutely
started to finish.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
Great great album. Hmm. I went first on the.

Speaker 4 (01:02:21):
Last one, anyway, Jim should go first.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
I'll go first. Go ahead, I'll take Rumors.

Speaker 4 (01:02:28):
Okay, that's the Fleetwood Mac one is And what was
the other one of Spring.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
Want to Run? Springsteen to Run.

Speaker 4 (01:02:39):
I'm gonna go spring I have no idea to run?

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
Okay? Oh man, I think Fleetwood Mac Born to Run
That was in seventy five. Rumors was in seventy seven.

Speaker 3 (01:02:57):
Crushing out.

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
It all right? Last one Goodbye Yellow Brick Road by
Elton John is one of the best full albums. Fantastic album.
Or Hotel California, Do Do Do Do Do? What is
the song You're sinking Jim, Hotel California? Sing some more

(01:03:21):
of it? California?

Speaker 6 (01:03:24):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
Hotel California. You know, can you tell me you're in
the Hotel California. Hotel California.

Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
By Yellow brick Rod, Tell Mo tell Holiday in Elton.

Speaker 4 (01:03:50):
Okay, I'm gonna go Eagles for funzies.

Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
I'm also Eagles. They both took Eagles. I'm going Elton, Elton,
John Damn dude. The Eagles came out with Hotel California
in seventy six.

Speaker 4 (01:04:02):
Wow six.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
That's a big gap too, had thanks the big gap.

Speaker 4 (01:04:07):
Wow small.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
The Whitney absolutely dominated us, right, like she's I've only
lost two.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
Yeah, she's doing it. Yeah, sure, yeah, slowed down a
little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:04:17):
I did.

Speaker 4 (01:04:18):
That's why I said I had to get it in early,
because giggy.

Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
Yea yeah, because otherwise they run.

Speaker 3 (01:04:23):
Away exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
All right.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Next question is about anxiety and depression, and there's a
trigger warning that this does involve suicidality. Also, it has
been trimmed down substantially.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
Substantially. Yeah, it was originally quite robust. I read the
whole thing twice, so I can. I can fill in
any gaps of knowledge.

Speaker 4 (01:04:45):
If you follow up questions.

Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
Hey, guys, love the pod. I found it a few
months ago and haven't missed an episode since I appreciate
the honesty and different perspectives on tough topics. Apologies if
this runs along. Life's been kicking me in the nuts
since nineteen ninety three. I'm a thirty one year old woman.

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
Really good T shirt to buy, by the way, that
would be solid.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
I'm a thirty one year old woman living in the
Midwest with my husband and two cats. I've dealt with
anxiety and depressions since childhood, but wasn't diagnosed until twenty
four after a panic attack. I grew up in a
strict religious immigrant household with fundamentalist expectations, no dating, arranged marriage,

(01:05:26):
the whole thing. By seventeen, I was a closeted atheist.
By fifteen, I was already planning my escape. Wait, they
went backwards until okay, yeah, my path out was through college.
My parents let me go but not live on campus,
so I stayed close. I met my now husband there,
but we had to date in secret. When my mother
found out, I moved out that same day. I went

(01:05:47):
no contact for two years due to stalking and threats.
During that time, my partner and I built a life together,
but I struggled with rage, alcohol, and pushing people away. Eventually,
a family member invited me to a wedding and I reconnected.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
And I reconnected. It was rocky.

Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
I found out they'd lied about where I was and
what I was doing. Around that time, I started therapy,
which was life saving for me, and tried multiple medications.
Effects Or helped for a while. When my husband and
I got engaged, I finally told my family about him.
They weren't happy. Some agreed to be in the wedding,
but bailed. On the morning of my wedding, I realized
they'd all essentially disowned me. I cried for over an hour,

(01:06:25):
high and heartbroken, but eventually walked myself down the aisle.
It ended up being a beautiful day, and I felt
real joy for the first time. That joy was short lived.
Effects or stopped working. My husband got laid off, and
I crumbled under the pressure to be the strong one.
I developed suicidal ideation. My inner voice, who I called Tina,

(01:06:46):
tells me I'm worthless alone and should just give up.
I found a psychiatrist that now takes Symbalta, which mostly
helps I stay busy doing yoga, journaling, volunteering, but one
missed dose and a bad day and is back with
a vengeance. The suicidal ideation returns often.

Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
I isolate.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
I already have a method in mind. When the fog clears,
I feel disgusted with myself for how cruel my inner
voice is. My therapist reminds me that I'm not alone,
that I've chosen family and tools, but it feels like
we're beating a dead horse. I'm exhausted, I feel the
next time my meds stop working. I don't know how
to keep going when life just won't stop breaking my heart?

(01:07:28):
So how do I evict Tina from my head? And
how do I keep going when my soul is so
so tired? Signed a weary soul.

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
So just to clarify here, because so in the for time,
A lot of times when we get long letters, we
have to cut it down. We pay Whitney by the minute,
and if we go over we can't afford it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
She's as expensive as a sex phone line operator, which
is where.

Speaker 4 (01:07:58):
Else should I be here?

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
Yeah, hanging out with us?

Speaker 3 (01:08:01):
Now have to pay you to hang out with and
like all women, we split it three ways.

Speaker 1 (01:08:11):
Economical. So I cut this down. I edited it by hand,
and it was still really long. So we sent it
through AI, and AI cut it down even further. Yes, Okay,
to give a little backstory here. Uh, the the cultural

(01:08:31):
religious component was huge, the fact that the writer did
not want to go through an arranged marriage and marry
a complete stranger. She found somebody in college, different culture,
different religion, had hired the relationship all through college. Parents
found out about it, completely disowned. See, they tried to

(01:08:54):
reconnect later, she got invited to a friend a cousin's wedding,
showed up at the wedding, found out that from everybody
else that they've just been lying about what happened to her. Wow,
they were just like, oh, she has many states away. No,
she was like an hour away. Okay, so they just
completely cut her out light about how it happened. She
tried to rebuild, it did not work out, and so
now she's completely pretty much disowned or the family has

(01:09:18):
disowned her. Okay. So the wedding, she had only six
people from her family that said they were going to
be there, and they all canceled the morning of she
so she basically had no one at the wedding.

Speaker 6 (01:09:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):
So then there was a little bit of substance use
in there. As well dealing with all of that. And
I tie all this in because this is kind of
one of the things that suicidal voice will pick on
I see and say, like, no one loves you, here's
evidence of that, so and so forth you'reth into. Yeah,
the suicidal ideation, got it. So that's the backstory, hopefully, writer.

(01:09:56):
I hope I did it. Credit boy, we saved a
lot of time not reading that letter. Yeah, so anyway, feel.

Speaker 3 (01:10:05):
That's fair.

Speaker 1 (01:10:06):
Yeah? Solid.

Speaker 5 (01:10:08):
Also definitely people were yelling that to their photes and
everything that you were explaining all Nick's been thirty seconds
explaining about how much time this saves.

Speaker 1 (01:10:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
So when we see this a lot critical inner voice
telling you you have no value. And I think it's
so important that the writer recognizes that as the disorder
that it is, that that is depression, that that is
a mental illness, that you should not trust, that that
there is a delusion to that. And I think it's
profound that the writer can sense the difference when quote

(01:10:40):
unquote the medicine stops working or we have a bad day,
that it's it's like being ill, it's like being compromised,
you know, and it's like being a diabetic or having
any other chronic physical condition. You have bad days where
you go, well, I'm not going to the beach today, Guys,
why because you know, the ex is acting up or
whatever it is that I'm going through, it's not going

(01:11:01):
to cooperate. It's not going to work. I have to
attend to myself. My herpes is flared up, yeah, violent,
herpees outbreaking. So, like, this is a really difficult thing
whenever it's it's this chronic condition. I love that the
writer sees that and is able to identify, and I
really like the idea of externalizing that inner voice, giving
it a name that that is Tina. Tina's a liar,

(01:11:21):
Tina treats me this way. Tina is the embodiment of
my sister, my mother, my aunt, like the women in
this culture that broke out.

Speaker 1 (01:11:28):
Addictions treatment all the time. Oh I love that. Yeah,
you're just kind of like, okay, let's give your addiction
a name, right, And it helps a personality, Yeah, it
helps to identify it because then it's kind of like
it becomes that character in every movie where like when
this character says this thing, you know, the exact opposite
it's going to happen, right, that's just the nature of
that character, right. It kind of helps you be able

(01:11:50):
to see it, like like I have this thought and
be like, Okay, well that's clearly not me thinking. That's
not my thought. That's not my thought. I love that,
you know. And then it's like, Okay, well, now I
know how to act because I can recognize that not me, yes,
and I can doubt it.

Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
And to me, that's what writer, I'm really really thrilled about,
is that you are able to cast doubt on the
thinkings of Tina and understand and this is vital that
the feelings we're having in those depressive spirals are not facts.
The feeling of worthlessness, the feeling of shame, the feeling
of guilt, the feeling of isolation, all the feelings of

(01:12:22):
rejection that come from the family, and the feelings of
just despair and hopelessness for the future. That these are
not facts, that they are delusions. They are part of
a mental illness called depression that I am medicated for,
that I am in therapy for that I've struggled with
my whole life. That comes to me very honestly through
the context and situations that I've been confronted with in
my life. The fact that you are able to identify
all of that and wrap up a good portion of

(01:12:43):
it in the voice of Tina. I just want to
celebrate that, you know, as we're taking stock of this,
I just want to first off say, wow, I love
that progress. You have a great therapist and you've clearly
dedicated yourself to making some great progress.

Speaker 1 (01:12:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:12:56):
I think it's important to point out that that feeling
that you mentioned toward the end, like the anxiety or
fear about Tina returning with a vengeance and like, oh,
it's only a matter of time my meds are going
to stop working or whatever, and now Tina's going to
come back and all hope is lost. What was the point?

Speaker 6 (01:13:15):
You know?

Speaker 4 (01:13:15):
Those negative, negative voices do come back, and negative thoughts
come back in I think that's very relatable because it
it is so overwhelming to deal with those thoughts, to
deal with those voices, and to have this expectation that

(01:13:35):
I mean, really, is Tina ever going to go away completely?
Maybe not, like we don't know, but maybe not? And
why do we keep going as humans? Like what pushes
us through those difficult times? It sounds like your your
husband is there and I know we didn't. He wasn't
mentioned a lot. Maybe uh Nick or AI cut him out,

(01:13:58):
but he wasn't mentioned as much. But I hear you
say that you feel the pressure of carrying on when
he's been laid off, being the strong one. And I
challenge you a little bit to lean in a little
bit more and trust those who are around you to

(01:14:20):
I don't know if share is the right word, but
to allow them to support you sometimes, because a lot
of times when I see clients who are trying to
be the strong one and they carry a lot of
this deep dark depression with him, it's like very interesting
to watch, but they don't want to open up to anyone.
They don't want to be a burden. I don't want
to burden others.

Speaker 1 (01:14:37):
I don't want to like bother The body already has
enough of a burden to add to it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
Exactly, And silence keeps us sick.

Speaker 4 (01:14:44):
It does. And you mentioned isolating whenever that voice comes
back up, and I would encourage you to push through
that isolation and decide when you're in a better mindset
what you want to do. When you're in maybe that
darker mindset, decide what what is my plan? When I
start feeling those thoughts, when I notice I'm isolating, when

(01:15:04):
I notice my hygienes going downhill, when I notice these
actual are my red flat, yeah, tangible things. I need
to go in there and sit next to my husband
in the living room and just say, hey, I'm struggling
right now, right, you know, use that support.

Speaker 1 (01:15:18):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:19):
I think another word that you're you're I think walking
toward there and you know, well, I'll just call it out.
This therapists phrase is safety plan, right yeah, and so
like I think that when you've chronically lived with depression
for a really long time and writer you've given us,
I think some some important indicators here that still came
through despite Nick's desire to delete you uh and the

(01:15:40):
AI attempt to reframe.

Speaker 1 (01:15:42):
I would have put the whole thing in there. You did.

Speaker 2 (01:15:45):
Dream Yeah, no, thank you. Honestly, I am the most
grateful because I cannot read for thirty minutes, like you know,
thank you for not making me do that. So I'm
on your team.

Speaker 1 (01:15:53):
Don't listen to these fuckers. They're dumb.

Speaker 4 (01:15:54):
I mean, I'm Jacob, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 3 (01:15:57):
I want you to know I support you.

Speaker 1 (01:15:58):
Wo walk you down the if that's what you need. Okay,
just the best man toast. You know, accidents happen all
the time.

Speaker 2 (01:16:10):
It's important she have an understudy who's ready to go
at a moment's notice.

Speaker 4 (01:16:14):
Okay, working on my speech, just.

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):
Saying don't don't maybe don't. I think I don't think
you'll need it or give it to me. I'll just
read a word for word when I was a young
girl growing up in Texas. No, but like, I really
like that you have a safety plan. And if that's
not something you fully developed with your therapist, think it's
important because you're giving us some important clues that didn't
get washed out through the edits where you said, look,
you know you didn't use the baseball metaphor, but you

(01:16:36):
kind of said, look, I'm on second base sometimes, you know.
And we've talked about this in the past. We use
the baseball unifore for suicidalin We've.

Speaker 1 (01:16:43):
Got to revisit it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:44):
First base is I feel despair, I feel hopeless. I
think about death, but it doesn't go much further than that.
I just have thoughts about death. I feel like it'd
be a relief to die, And sometimes I don't care
if I'm alive or dead, it's there. Second base is
I'm starting to practically answer the question of how I
would do this. I'm taking that thought further. I'm imagining

(01:17:06):
the method that I would use, and I'm even aware
of whether or not I have access to that method.
It's a practical method. It's not a method of like
I would jump off the moon, like you can't practically
do that, but it's a method of like I would
do this action, or I would utilize this tool. And
then third base is starting to get very serious about
the where and the when this plan is now materializing
into an action plan. It's showing up and then turning

(01:17:28):
past third base and starting to head home. Is going
through all the other red flag behaviors self sabotage, self destruction,
giving away your stuff, like starting to really make the
plan to do this, and ultimately getting to an attempt.
So you're indicating in your letter that you know you
relate to second base, that you've gotten to this place
of asking how, and it frightens you how quickly your
brain will go back to second base when a humanist

(01:17:50):
is doing that, What we want a therapist is to
see them have a very strong safety plan that says,
if I get to second base, here are the things
I am gonna do. Intervention one, I'm gonna use this
medicine when my Symbalta is not working. I don't know
if it was simpolts it effects or know they switched
it effects are first, and then they went to when

(01:18:11):
my Symbalta is not working, I might have to use
an anti anxiety medicine that's more acute care oriented to
get me out of my head and out of a spiral,
you know, And so that might be indicated, but like
that might be on the safety plan. This is how
I'm going to contact my therapist. This is I'm going
to contact a support group. These are the things I'm
going to keep in my life on standby my husband,
might you know, might be friends, things like that that

(01:18:33):
I'm going to reach out to and and indicate that
I need help. And I'm going to do the things
that are good self care for me. And that might
mean that I distance myself from the method I imagine
myself using, or I get rid of things in my
house that I know I shouldn't have. And this is
a good time. You know you didn't mention firearms, but
this is a good time to mention. To hold my
Guns dot Org a really good program that you can

(01:18:56):
go to and you can find gun suppliers and organizations
in your community that will take custody of your firearms
and give them back to you when you are ready.
It's completely free. And this is the number one way
that people in their lives is just utilizing a firearm
in their home on a very bad day. And if
you find yourself getting to second base and you're thinking

(01:19:17):
about using your firearms, you need to go ahead and
surrender your guns for a while, just get rid of
them for a minute. You'll be fine without them.

Speaker 5 (01:19:22):
If you have a close friend or relative that has
a gun safe, that's a great option.

Speaker 2 (01:19:28):
If you don't hold my Guns dot org there you go,
go check it out. And almost any firearm dealer now
which will have an arrangement where they will take custody
of your stuff. They'll give you a receipt and then
you just come on back whenever you're ready for it
and they'll hand it right back to you, polish and everything.
So you know, I just want to put that out
there right or that a safety plan is absolutely pivotal

(01:19:48):
when somebody's getting to this place and they're experiencing that
second level. Now, your question of how do I evict Tina?
I want to be real, It's very likely that Tina
will sort of always exist to some extent, and that
sucks because that means you're always going to have to
do battle with these self deprecating thoughts. At the end
of the day, the thoughts are a probably enduring reality

(01:20:13):
is part of depression. But that doesn't mean that we're powerless.
It doesn't mean that we have to just sit here
and endure terrible feelings and going through this. You're using medication,
you're also altering the medication, and that sounds like you
have a good doctor in your life. For psychiatrists, that's
helping you monitor this and manage and navigate. I love
hearing that writer, because chronic long term depression requires long

(01:20:36):
term thinking and requires adaptability. You're using all the tools
afforded you, and I love that, and I think that's
really important because we might not be able to just
eliminate Tina. But the fact that you have named this
and externalized it also gives you access to tools like
responding to it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:54):
That to me is key.

Speaker 2 (01:20:56):
The ability to respond to these thoughts in an honest
way that assesses what they're saying and right sizes this
criticism and disputes it and refutes it. That stuff that
we learn in cognitive behavioral therapy. That won't evict Tina,
but it will limit her influence. And that's ultimately the
stopping point that I want for you.

Speaker 1 (01:21:15):
It helps to describe Tina and understand that Tina is
not looking out for your best interests, right, yeah, you know.
And I it also kind of reminds me of In
a Beautiful Mind, the movie where he's you know, he
still has these hallucinations, you know that he's been dealing
with forever and there, you know, someone asks him towards
the end of the movie, like, well, are they still there?
And he's like, yep, they're still there. But he describes it,

(01:21:37):
he's like, it's a diet of the mind where I
just choose not to indulge in certain Yeah. Uh, I
can't remember how he describes it, but almost kind of
describes it that way, like, you know, they're there, but
I choose not to engage with them, you know, Right,
It's Tina's always going to be there, but it's not
I'm aware that battle is not always going to be difficult, right,
Like you kind of learned to understand Tina, and you

(01:21:59):
start to understand and like, oh I can defeat Tina. Yeah,
she's not going to go away. But I've learned how
to deal with this, right, you know, and you learn
how to handle it. Also, i'll throw out, uh, since
you're a new listener and just kind of getting into
our back catalog, go back to episode one seventy three
back in April of twenty twenty one. Jesus, we had

(01:22:21):
Robert Brownie Junior meant on the show. Oh, that's a
good one. That is a great episode. Yeah, and he
talks a lot about his experience with that and a
lot of what you're talking about sounds very similar, very
similar to what he was saying. And I think listening
to that episode may help put some perspective behind all
of this. Oh, that's a great I think that'd be

(01:22:41):
a good episode to listen to.

Speaker 2 (01:22:43):
Yeah, and even you know, I love that you're listening
to our show, obviously selfishly, but like I love that
you're finding content that is relatable and normalizing and you know,
being a part of a community to the extent that
you choose to where other people are rooting for you
and can be there too. And sometimes even just saying
out loud like I'm hearing this, you know, really negative
stuff today and I'm just having to remind myself that

(01:23:05):
that's not true and push through it. Saying that in
the discord sometimes just feels really good just to have
other people click like and say yep, fight that bitch.
Don't listen to Tina, you know, And it's just like
validating and be like, yeah, no, you're right, guys, Like
this is a disease of the mind. I didn't choose it.
It was handed to me through situations and contexts. I
have overcome those things. I frame myself as a survivor.

(01:23:28):
I am navigating this with an open mind. I understand.
I am enlightened enough to know what mental health is
all about. And at the end of the day, it's
like you said, Nick, I mean, it's the diet of
the mind. You may not be able to eliminate this stuff,
but you can moderate how you respond to it, and
there is a way to decrease the units of suffering

(01:23:48):
because of that, and continuing to explore those medication options.

Speaker 1 (01:23:52):
That's me part of it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:53):
If you notice that the symbalta works, but then sometimes doesn't.
I want your doctor to know that because that.

Speaker 1 (01:23:59):
Could be I was going too.

Speaker 4 (01:24:02):
Definitely staying in contact with your doctor. I mean, even
if you're like, oh it works some of the time, like,
still say.

Speaker 5 (01:24:08):
That, be open about that stuff. Be open about Tina,
and be open about the suicidal thoughts.

Speaker 1 (01:24:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:24:14):
Yeah, you didn't say that you weren't that you are,
but yeah, be extra open with the doctor about all
those things.

Speaker 1 (01:24:19):
Couple last things that I wanted to point out, Yeah,
because you did talk about I know, bear with me
from the letter. You did talk about how your your
therapist had mentioned, uh, kind of brought up to you
the difference between the family that you're born into versus
the family you choose. And sometimes that is nice to
hear and understand that. You know, Uh, it's never easy

(01:24:42):
to be disowned like that from your family, right, But
I think it says a lot about who you are
with all the people that you've chosen. The family that
you choose, I think says more about you than the
family you're born into. Yeah, and so you got you've
got that support around do so I think that's amazing.
The last thing I'm going to touch on be mindful

(01:25:05):
of the substance use. Yeah, because I did hear quite
a bit of I felt this way and then I
used this substance. I felt this way, and I used
this substance. Not necessarily going to imply that there's a
substance use disorder here, but that's something to be mindful
of when you're using it as a coping skill. And

(01:25:26):
the other thing too, is you know, it's really it's
hard to expect medications to work how they're supposed to
when you're introducing all of these other substances. So just
be mindful of all of that.

Speaker 5 (01:25:39):
Stuff has effects. Yes, yeah, everything that you put into
you has as some kind of effect, and just be
mindful of it.

Speaker 4 (01:25:44):
Doctor Jacob knows best.

Speaker 1 (01:25:46):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (01:25:47):
It didn't just I've tried a lot of heert doctor
Jacob's pharmacy. That's right, self taught anyway, Weary Soul, thank
you for writing in. It's a great question, and we
need questions like this because it also gives people hope
and it normalizes the experience of a lot of other listeners.
Throughout the years, we've read reviews where people have said, Look,

(01:26:07):
I just was listening to this and somebody wrote in
and that question could have been ripped red out of
my journal, and it just was so validating to know
that other humans are enduring and we're all doing this together,
existing out of spite, getting through it. But Nick, I'm
really glad you brought substance abuse because in the abbreviated
letter there was only the briefest reference to I've struggled
with alcohol, and it sounds like that is a lifelong struggle.

(01:26:29):
It sounds like that easily can become a problem again
and other things as well as complicating factors. Yeah, cannot
overstate how like disruptive that is to the medication and
how it will ultimately enable Tina to come back more often.
So very very important note to make. We're going to
take a final break, and when we come back, we

(01:26:50):
are wrapping up the show. You are listening to pod Therapy.

Speaker 1 (01:26:54):
Today's episode has brought to you by most appropectly Kayla Lansberry,
Kevin Chamberlain, Ben Stanley, Adam Hathaway, Dan Martin, Live Hey Yo,
Andrew Langmey, Chad May and kill Laprice Britence. I jumped
back and forth between upsodes. Would you like sposs the show,

(01:27:15):
become a therap producer preacher in dot com slash therapy.
I've got no other trivia. We're excellent.

Speaker 4 (01:27:20):
Yes, I would like to throw out I got a claim.

Speaker 2 (01:27:23):
My own two albums. You tell me which one came
out first. I don't know the names of the albums.

Speaker 1 (01:27:32):
Oh my god, you're an idiot. Boys to Men or
the Temptations. What that's all last week's session, I think
our landlord.

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):
As we wrap up the show, we want to remind
you that you can sign up the patron dot com
slash therapy. You can get our extended show a day
early as I was enjoy our life shat Discord community.

Speaker 1 (01:27:58):
Oh, I guess we're just gonna keep going the music. Fuck,
yeah we are.

Speaker 2 (01:28:01):
We recorded this on July fifteenth, so we are not
going to thank anybody who signed up since then, but
we will get you in the next episode. I am
gonna take a beat to say thank you to the
therap partners who are the benevolent, revered, generous, and flagrantly
pro therapy diehards who love you all so much. Take
it till it hurts Sturdy B and Picky I want
to think our bosses, the mysterious and shrouded Illuminati, members

(01:28:21):
of the fan club, their producers. Thank you, Jake Schneider,
Robert Brownie, Junior, Mint, Myira, Smitty Scoop, Richard Fucking Macy,
Judy Schneider, Malia, Leon, cassab Carolyn Albert, Kevin Chamberlain, Tess Miller,
Dan Martin, Sammy Scoop, Slurpikai motherfucker, Ben stan Lee, slapping
your face, Sarah Smith, Adam Hathaway, Biler t, Mike helm
Oscar Swan Rose, paris a sunny Boy, Darren Cunningham, Lips,

(01:28:42):
Sandra mcgwaffle Team, Monico, Thunder Cooper, Falcon Scoop, Heyo Hannah,
Marie Andrew Langmead, Emma Tonka and Pony Soprano, Alina Codylaurian
Guy Brady Malaychick Chick, Filatio Gabriel, Dame Shawn South, willand
Max the Ginger Scoop, Chad mag Adam Warren and Uncle
Le Prince.

Speaker 1 (01:28:59):
And you'd lecture this episode uncut and unedited it and
who joy spontaneous side pressures, but at patreon dot com
slash therapy, and thank you for supporting. That's all. That's
all the time we got for this week session.

Speaker 2 (01:29:09):
You want to thank our landlords, s J and the
Rucket Hey, Coy Ponscenic you on studios. I want to
think all of you contributed to the show today.

Speaker 1 (01:29:17):
We really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:29:18):
Remember pout therapies and something to keep all yourself tech.
Us on the socials, find us on there.

Speaker 1 (01:29:22):
It's always some version of that. Pot therapy guys.

Speaker 2 (01:29:24):
You'll find it and U don't forget to subscribe to
the show at Patreon dot.

Speaker 1 (01:29:28):
Com, slash therapy. Do you want some of the questions
of the show, you can ask anonymously at pod therapy
is on next. Email us at pod therapy guys at
gmail dot com, or click the link in the episode description.
I'm Nick Tangman, I'm Jim. Thanks and we'll see if
your appointment next week. It was the Temptations.

Speaker 4 (01:29:46):
A lot of people WHOA I would have never guessed.

Speaker 5 (01:29:50):
Yeah, by what thirty years the Temptations might have released
another album after the Boys to mid.

Speaker 2 (01:29:57):
Oh, that would have been a cool trivia. When was
this basic album? Which album?

Speaker 1 (01:30:03):
Right?

Speaker 5 (01:30:04):
Because the Temptations of this other round and like some
iteration did this band at least.

Speaker 2 (01:30:08):
An album before or after this other band existed.

Speaker 1 (01:30:13):
That would be a cool Okay, I got a question
for you. Which came first, snow yeah or rain? Oh shit?
Really depends on where you live. The Temptation's most recent
album was released in twenty twenty two.

Speaker 3 (01:30:25):
Oh Damn Temptations sixty damn all right.

Speaker 1 (01:30:30):
Yeah, they've been around in some form or other, like
none of the original members are in it.

Speaker 2 (01:30:34):
Oh, they're all dead and been replaced.

Speaker 1 (01:30:36):
I don't know the ship. Yeah, I feel good about that.

Speaker 3 (01:30:42):
Goodbye, everybody in

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