#406: SSRI Orgasmia, Drunken Shame, Polyamory Imposter Syndrome

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The following day, I had several of those students in
my next class, and they were just telling all their
peers about it, and everybody's like, oh, you know, we should
have gone lying son of a bitch, lying son of
a bitch. Jobin pulled over the shape. There it is,
throwing more lies from tabulous Las Vegas.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Now this is pod therapy, real people, real problems, and
real therapist. You can submit your questions anonymously pod therapy.
It's on net or emails some hot therapy guys at
gmail dot com.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
Man now broadcasting from.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Technical Schoop Poart won five damn dollars from Whitney Studios.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
That's that's Whitney.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
I'm forget we're selling, is what I'm fucking talking about.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Thank you Technical Support.

Speaker 4 (00:51):
Yeah that is awesome.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yeah, I forgot we're doing this and I crain it.
It's on there, it's it. I'm I'm regretting it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, I don't know, like I've seen the future I
have I know, I don't know what these are. I
have I've seen them come in. And the question I
guess is when multiple people submit with the same joke.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Oh no, okay, I think you just creadit all of
them well, but I yeah, I could get their time though,
or do you just do multiple weeks of the same thing.
I think you can do whatever you want, honestly, I
think no, no, no, I think the spirit of this is
that you have to honor the joke as it was written,
because that's how you create a bit. Then all of

(01:36):
a sudden, somebody's like people, guys, thirty of us are
going in on this, and we're running the table for
thirty weeks.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
This is buy up the other level that you guys
put this. Okay, twenty you think jack it up getting
the thumbs upside right.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
I know you think that.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
And the only way you think that is because you
haven't seen the ship that's coming.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
When you hear them.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
There's gonna be like one who's gonna trust me, You're
gonna fucking hate it.

Speaker 5 (02:06):
We have no idea what the name is, our only
nick notes. We have not seen.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
Anything like that. I don't want to know, idiot.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
I don't want Jim or no, no, I want Jim,
only person who knows all of it.

Speaker 4 (02:19):
Oh no, okay.

Speaker 6 (02:20):
I I think you can do whatever you want you
want to if you want to group something together and say,
like the following people wrote this one.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
I think you can do that. I think it's more
fun to just do all of Also, people can also
just submit a title of the studio anonymously. I mean
they could buy it and then not themselves. They're all anonymous. Okay,
As it turns out.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yeah, because I didn't, I know, I know who's submitting them,
because I can go back and see, I can check
and see what happened on the Patreon. Twenty dollars just
came in from so and so got it, I know what? Yeah, Okay,
but if we get like ten of them, then I'm
not gonna know who did.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah. The fear I'm seeing in your face right now,
this is very persive. The only idea you told.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
Me and I did it keeps us coming. This is
gonna be a lot of regret in your eyes right now.
We need to bring up the press is because you
only get one a week. You get one ever, no,
I mean like you us, yes, you okay, you can
only we can only name one a week.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
There's only one studio each week.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Okay, Yeah, well okay, so I'm a little scared. Seeing
the fear in Nick's eyes is really mess is making
me Your.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
Bomb could land in anybody's laugh. I don't know that
I want this, this smoke. I'm scared. Now bring the
right Petreon dot com slash therapy. You can name the
studio until we change our minds, which maybe it's very soon.
You should get that purchase in now, because we will
be honor bound to continue it. I'm gonna tell you
right now, you're checking out me and I are going

(03:55):
to keep on fighting for this.

Speaker 4 (03:57):
To stay here.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
You might get over looking at Nick and Jim.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
It doesn't I'm the anxious bunny in this bunch, and
to see the fear in Nick's eyes like, oh ship,
he's scared to read these words.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
This is not going to be good.

Speaker 5 (04:13):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
Okay, well patroon dot com slash therapy. Also, as you
are hearing this, this week, I've released the seventh part
in my AI series. This one's about the rise and
fall of the first AI Therapist, So.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
I may have to listen to this. Okay, it's only
seven hours, this specific episode, but just it feels like,
just within the last two weeks, AI has gone fucking crazy.
The ship that is being sent to me, and that's

(04:48):
not so you sent me one, Yeah, and I looked
at it, and ever since I looked at it. Now
I'm just getting overrun with AI videos of Stephen Hawkings.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Oh yeah, somebody even.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
Hawking at the X Games, like doing that pipe. Yeah, yeah,
a whole bunch of Bob Ross ship.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah, Bob Ross. I sent one to.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
Jacob debscribed that one, described that one to everyone. No,
But like it's so it's gotten so real, you know
it has. It has gotten quickly.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
So like this this next episode that I've already recorded,
it's gonna air on Monday. So people when they're hearing this,
it's already aired this week and go patroon dot com
slash therapy pick it up. If you're in the five
dollars and hired to hears. You get it every week
whenever we release stuff. So we're going into this this
new reality of how real this is now and like
the delusional things that this is causing in well meaning,

(05:48):
normal humans, and it is fascinating. Like for me, I
went through my first AI emotional experience this past week.
I sent all of you a song that I had
I had found. It was Gangster's Paradise rewritten into a
blues song and performed entirely by Ai Yeah Soul, okay

(06:09):
and uh and and I listened to this, and dude,
I was like shaken when I listened to this because
it was so real. It was just for whatever reason,
it was like that the singer's voice sounds like this
middle aged African American man. It's got so much pain
in it, and it's it's the lyrics of Gangster's Paradise
and it's already done.

Speaker 6 (06:30):
But I don't understand why you're confused about this. This
is always your response to Coolio music.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah yeah, yeah, which historically you're correct. I've never seen
you not weep hearing a Coolio song. Yeah yeah yeah,
which is why I got the tattoo, you know, and
and so, but.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
I think that's why. It's just chuck, you know, like
it really shook me up. But it's dreads And I've
listened to this thing so many times. I've sent it
to everybody I know, like, listen to this, but like
it really shook me. And then I found myself having
this weird reaction afterward, because here I was like really
emotionally touched by this art and then being like my god,
somebody just typed a prompt into this machine, and it's

(07:07):
spit out this soulful, like deep voice that I felt
carried meaning, and I went through this weird like and
I didn't have words for the experience I was feeling,
but it was like this. It's like whenever you feel
like you're falling in love with somebody and then all
of a sudden you realize they're an actress, you know.
It's it's like, it's just like it's the Truman Show moments.

(07:30):
I don't know how to describe that emotion of like, oh,
I think this is real. I'm falling into this, I'm
really touched, I'm really vulnerable, and then to discover it's
a facade, and like actually ended up going to AI
and being like, what fucking is there a word to
describe this? An inventive off but no, like just to

(07:51):
agree with you these videos and stuff and even the music.
Now it's it's so real that it's affecting me emotionally,
and then I'm having to have this weird backlash of
like that's not real. Don't let it touch your heart
because it's not a real thing.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
So I saw I came across an Instagram channel of
a guy that breaks down AI videos and so I
I saw one and then he stops and he's like, okay,
this is AI.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Here's how you know. Yeah, but like I missed. The
kids know immediately, but we're like, oh my.

Speaker 5 (08:29):
God, no, I need to hear this too.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
Middle aged I had to watch this video five or
six times and I would hear what he would say
that they're like, I didn't see that, and I had
to go back and watch it again. There's one of
this guy walking through his kitchen with this huge fucking
dog and this dog.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
Is like six foot tall.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
Okay, okay, and it looks like a real dog, real
man everything.

Speaker 4 (08:54):
Yeah, it looked.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
I knew it wasn't I knew it couldn't be because
dogs aren't that.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
But because that's part of the Internet, is like this
bizarre thing that's a really big dog. The ship that
tells you, the ship that tells you, well, here's the
thing that's.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
Going to happen.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Put your credit card number in when you see a dog.
Doesn't remember If it was slightly believable for me, yeah,
that means every person in my family who's older than me,
totally seventy that's scary ship, a scary ship because they
can do that for anything, right, right, right, I mean

(09:34):
why is scary?

Speaker 1 (09:35):
Why? Because for anybody? Yeah, it's just.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
Do if it looks like the president was assassinated or something,
the next presidential candidate is going to be. All they
have to do is put out a video of this
guy pissing on it, right like child.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
They're just like, oh, this is the you know, this
is why we can't vote for this. And it's like,
oh that by the time that the correction catches up
to the lie, yeah, which is always what is that?
What is that old saying?

Speaker 2 (10:02):
It's the the effort to correct something is infinitely it
takes infinitely more times than dude, more than the lie.
Then yeah, yeah, then the correction takes whatever more than
the lie. So anyway, like there's this one that the
dog walking through and he's like, Okay, here's how you

(10:23):
know it's fake because the bucket in the background changes.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Oh gocket, I didn't even look at the fucking bucket.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
And you look at it and yes, there's a bucket,
and then it goes down the frame and then it
comes back and now it's.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
A flower pot. Oh Jesus.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
But It's like I wasn't looking at you always have
to look at the background. Ye jeez, the background is
where all the information is.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
So but now that they're creating art this way, like
there's an actress now that's like a fully AI autreist,
and I guess SAG is like up in arms about
it because they can basically just produce anything with this person.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
And well, but that was interesting because at first I
was like, oh my god, that's so like fucked up.

Speaker 5 (10:58):
But then it's like, we.

Speaker 3 (10:58):
Have animation, right, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I guess
you know it's animated.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, Like if there came out with an animated Joe Biden,
I don't think like.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, you know, he's the Simpsons version of Joe Biden.
This is not real look at it. That's why this
is why you But if.

Speaker 5 (11:16):
You know their AI, like what is the difference?

Speaker 1 (11:19):
Right? This doesn't shock you at all.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
This doesn't mess with you as an artist or like,
this doesn't surprise entertainment at all. This is this is
what happens every single time there's a new piece of technology.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
What about the idea of like a like creating art
that that touches you. But then it turns out I
don't know, like like for me, jazz or something like
that is is bespoke to a culture like these. Part
of what makes it powerful is understanding the human story
that created the genre and this person who's performing it.

(11:51):
This is why you can't have like anybody perform that
because they don't have like the creative license to do it.
Like there's there's some genres that there's an earned you know,
right to participate in this and do it well street cred. Yeah,
I mean something right, Like there's a certain there's art,
there's art forms that is that that's true, okay, and
then when AI can just stamp it out. That's what

(12:11):
hit me about Gangster's Paradise is this is like fuck dude, Like.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
But that's just it is nothing was actually made. Like
you're not describing a new thing. You're describing a different
look at an existing thing.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, okay, which.

Speaker 6 (12:24):
Like I can already take like I can already take
a piece of music like like Gangster's Paradise, right and
like pitch shift things and slow things down and add
music and take music away and do all these like.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
Right, you can adapt it.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, and so and like that doesn't make me a
creative artist, Okay, just because I can do that like that,
that isn't what makes me a creative artist.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
That's just a piece of technical know how. Right.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
I can do this, and I understand the music structure,
and so I can do things within that structure to
make it work.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
So I mean that's kind of what the computer is
doing essentially. And I still I still have a real
problem with calling it AI, okay, because it doesn't seem
like anything is being created. It seem I mean, you
have like the large what's it called, the large Language Model,
and all those kinds of types, all those things. It

(13:19):
all seems like at some level it is plagiarism to me, right,
And I don't even mean that as like a damning thing.

Speaker 1 (13:27):
It's just what it seems like, it's just imitating.

Speaker 6 (13:29):
Yeah, and like in the same way that Google is, right, Yeah,
you know, it's not creating information, it is presenting information, right,
and so that that's it always kind of feels the
same to me. The AI actress is a weird one.
I don't understand how that's a problem. I don't understand

(13:50):
what the what the issue is.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
Well, I think Whitney's point about animation. That's a that's
a very persuisive point to me. And I guess the
actress thing doesn't freak me out yet because I just
don't perceive that person as real. The music touched me
and then to feel like that was just you know,
I don't know, just the command. It just felt weird.
Here's here's my prediction for the future.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
I see probably within every Yeah, within the next five years,
it's gonna start. There's gonna be music that is completely created.
So we're to Jacob's point where you're taking a song
that already exists in manipula, Well.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
That does exist. Yeah, there's a channels on Spotify now,
yes originals, Oh okay, cool. I just happen to be
listening to a cover. But that's a thing now.

Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, a lot of Spotify is just a I would
guess it's probably gonna as a genre. It's gonna take
off probably at an ed M first. Yeah, that seems
to be the Yeah, it'll kind of take off within
that world.

Speaker 1 (14:48):
Might b roll music. Yeah, you know, like was it
royalty free, which is really useful. It's gonna we should
use it to make our theme.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
All those types of things are gonnet swamped with it.
But even that, you're taking kind of known music theories
and just executing them.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
Right.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
So, like, if you want to make a song sound sad,
you go like, oh, well, it's probably gonna be about
so many beats per minute, or it's gonna be this
range beats permitted. It's going to be in one of
these keys. It might be in a in a you know,
I have a bit of a minor key here. It
might have you know, this style of bridge to it.

Speaker 6 (15:21):
And I mean so like the computer can just kind of,
I don't know, it could kind of just be analytical
about it. And you're like, I can build us like
a horror song, right, Like I've got all these little
these little music things here.

Speaker 2 (15:35):
Oh yeah, like oh yeah, yeah, you just have a
key that sounds like it's a little scarier. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
So they already response. So your prophecy has been fulfilled. Nick, Congratulations,
man call him like you're saying the fact that he
doesn't know that it makes the call though. Yeah, I
think you still get credit. I like that. I'll give
you credit for those I'll take it. AI here a
stake patreon dot com, slash therapy. You can hear me
tell the story of the creation and destruction of the

(16:06):
first AI therapist. This is really really crazy news, so
check it out patreon dot com slash therapy. We do
a deep dive into it. But we've got some great
questions for today's show, and we're leading off the order
today with antidepressants and sexual dysfunction. Hey guys and PW
PW Whitney. I'm currently taking laxipro for depression and found

(16:28):
the longer I've been on it, the more trouble I
have achieving orgasm, the desire and all other urges remain.
But at the risk of offering too much information, I
get right to the edge and just don't tip over it.
I understand that many SSRIs have some sexual side effects,
and I already have an appointment with my doctor to
discuss it. I've done a bit of my own research

(16:49):
to at least understand some of the causes and differences,
and found that some alternatives referred to as atypical antidepressants
like well buttrin, trasidoon, etc. Often as less sexual side effects.
Then SSRIs, could you please give some explanation of the
difference between these two types of medicine if they have
comparable effects on depression, if there's a danger in transitioning

(17:10):
from one to the other, et cetera, et cetera. As mentioned,
I will be discussing all of this with my doctor
as well, But do value your thoughts on this as well,
since I don't understand half of what I read when
I do deep dives and seek details and the effects
of medications. Thanks all much, Love tests the forever tattooed scoop.
Even if you ever say something I don't like that

(17:33):
is going to.

Speaker 3 (17:33):
Happen, say something, Jim real, Yeah, I'm sure this is
your chance.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
So I'm gonna set us up to succeed on this. Friends,
Because none of us are psychiatrists, we can speculate a
little bit on this. I don't want us to, you know,
that's that's not the most value we're going to offer.
But I think we can all speak to having people
that have experienced that that you know, sexual side effects,
what are the side effects of medications? And you know,
I think that's important to kind of just discuss in

(17:59):
the abstract.

Speaker 3 (18:00):
Yeah, that was kind of the direction I felt most
comfortable because I'm like, I don't really know the full
differences between the technical differences between all those medications.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
I got you. Yeah, Yeah, Jacob's got that. I got
I got the solution here, guys.

Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah, and I also don't know all the technical differences
between these medications.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
But I can just help you out. It is an
all natural remedy. Uh.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
You don't have to guess it with your doctor. All
you do is you just keep on doing exactly what
you're doing right now. And you get some white rhino
horn that ship out every day. You just take a
little snore to that. Just just take a quick little snort,
ground up white rhino horn. Get a lot of it. Yeah,

(18:44):
because we are we are running out of resource.

Speaker 5 (18:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
Yeah, but don't skip on the rhino horn. That's what
I say at every party.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
It will make you just spray like a fire hose.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
It will.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
I can't really explain what will happen, right, but put
down a tarp, yeah, just for.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
The love of God, right, yeah, shower of tarp. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
And and and shower after, not before, always after. Don't
do it in an area where food has grown.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
For assumption.

Speaker 5 (19:26):
Here, I was just gonna suggest turning up or.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
Kick it number.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
It's always a higher level. It's a leaf blower mode. Well,
I hope that helps it. When we go back, we'll see. No.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
I have heard this from clients as a side effect.
It can be very frustrating. And so I hear you
when you're like, hey, what's the deal. Maybe this medication
is helping with my depression, helping with suicidal thoughts, things
like that, But there's this side effect over here. So
vers the came to mind was that any of these

(20:02):
medications are going to have some side effect, like nine
times out of ten it probably will.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
So today a side effect was listed as eye problems.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
Okay, was this for a g LP one just eye problem?

Speaker 7 (20:16):
No?

Speaker 1 (20:17):
This was for like an atne medication. Oh wow, I
was like eye.

Speaker 5 (20:21):
Problems, my eye problem.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
That couldn't mean a lot anything from like dry eye
to your eyeballs falling out blind. Now I would if
both of those things as eye problems, blindness permanent blindness.

Speaker 1 (20:36):
Permanent may cause piracy.

Speaker 5 (20:38):
Yeah, exact.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
Medication I can't come may cause your eyes to explode.

Speaker 5 (20:48):
The pirate that can't come. I feel like that's the
whole care the.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
Search for booty. Just hold still, look in me eye.
You know why I call it my peg leg hook.

Speaker 5 (21:04):
This is great, My god.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
The pirate who can't orgasm? Can we pitch that to
Paul for the next Hollywood Squares.

Speaker 3 (21:13):
I'm you were saying, Oh my gosh, I am bank
to it. So, yeah, there's gonna be some side effects. Obviously,
you said you're going to your doctor. Uh. My experience
working with clients who have side effects that they're like, well,

(21:33):
maybe it's okay that I have this one thing going on,
like it's it's helped with these other mental health issues,
so maybe it's just fine, And I always tell them
talk to your doctor. There's probably something else you can
try that will have either a more manageable side effect
or less of a side effect than what you're going
through now, especially if it's something as like if this
is important to you, which I'm guessing it is since

(21:55):
you're writing in then that's important enough to bring up
to your doctor and say, hey, I don't like the
side effects or something else.

Speaker 5 (22:02):
We can try.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
The other thing I was going to say very quickly
is something that I've done with clients is making sure
when they're going through medication adjustments, if you could keep
like a little in your notes app or if you're
pin the paper type of gout, like writing down which
medications you had, what types of side effects for because
sometimes it can get a little convoluted. You have to

(22:24):
be on these medications for like two months at a time,
and maybe like next year. You know you're willing to
try something you tried before, but you couldn't remember right
what was really bothering me on that one medication. So
keeping just brief It doesn't have to be super detailed,
but some brief notes on like what you are trying
if you try different medications. I've found that to be

(22:46):
really helpful.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
So that's really good.

Speaker 5 (22:48):
Just a random suggestion.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
Well, and you know, I'm really glad we're talking about this.
Like in the history of the show, I think that
we are generally trying to signal to folks like, hey,
if you're struggling, don't get preocationied with a lot of
the talk about side effects, because I'd much rather you
be so non depressed that you feel like fucking but
you know you can't quite finish, Like Okay, a really

(23:11):
Staustian bargain here, Like I need these pills that I
want to have sex with people and enjoy my life,
but then I can't fucking climax, Like, I get that.
It sounds like a trade off. This is a side
effect of SSRIs. We do see it. Sometimes it's delayed ejaculation,
and some people are delayed climax. Some people it's nargasmia,
the inability to actually climax. It is I don't want

(23:32):
to say it's extremely common, but it's it's in the
bucket of things we might see. Usually it's dose related.
So I'd say eighty percent of the time whenever somebody
has this, when they check back in with the psychiatrists
and they tell them this is what I'm experiencing, the
first move I usually see from our psychiatrist's colleagues is
they'll just dial down the dosation. Sure, and that usually

(23:54):
solves it. And they're like, great, let's see if we
can dial it down. If your depression comes roaring back,
then and we will play another move here. But usually
they'll just say, I'm just gonna cut a few milligrams
off this thing, and I'll bet you that between therapy
and general maintenance and you know the general residual SSRI
that's in you, I'll bet you'll be okay for a while.
And so usually that's the solution to it, so it's

(24:14):
a very solvable thing. Sometimes they'll add another medication like
bupropion because that actually like it's an augmentor in some cases,
so if you get really high on dosage with the SSRIs,
you start to get to this place where you get
diminishing returns and so there's not as much therapeutic value
for every milligram you're adding, and that's usually what we'll
throw in a kicker like bupropion. And the other side

(24:35):
effect of bupropeon when added to the SSRI is that
it often removes that sexual inhibition or I guess not
inhibition but sexual issue, right, dysfunctional issue. So for a
lot of people, that's the move that the doctor will
do if they don't just remove a few milligrams or
like you mentioned tests moving over to an atypical so

(24:55):
that that's absolutely a move too. And you'll see that
I mean, Trazdon's probably not like because that tends to
be more for like nightmares and sleep, but I defer
to your doctor that well, bututrian's probably the move, or
they might go to an s NRI. There's a few
different moves that they can do here that maintain the
antidepressant power, but are much less likely to create any

(25:17):
kind of sexual side effects. So those are all possibilities.
And you know, so I don't want questions like this
to discourage people, because, like we said, sometimes people will
get so notable into the side effects of the stuff
that they won't do the right thing. They won't address
mental illness when it presents because they're scared. Oh, I've
heard some people gain weight on an SSRI, or I've

(25:37):
heard some people don't don't have good sex on an SSRI,
and that's important to me. I need to make sure
I have a good sex life. And it's like you
need to make sure that you don't want to fucking
kill yourself too. Like let's start there and like, let's
make sure that we get an optimal version of you,
and then we can fiddle with the recipe to get
it right. If there are side effects, they can almost
always be overcome or navigated around. Podcast wise or source

(25:59):
of information wise, I want to take a second to
plug another show. Doctor David Pooter has the Psychiatry and
Psychotherapy podcast.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
It's really really good. Yeah, that is his name sounds like,
sounds great. He's a great guy. Yeah, what's his name, Uh,
doctor David Pooter.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
Okay, yeah, pu d e R. But about his name,
Jim Vine. But yeah, great, great show and the archives
of that. He has a bunch of psychiatry resident students
that actually help him design the research for his show,
and he wrote several that are really big deep dives
into am I saying a word wrong? Is? I don't

(26:35):
think so, I don't know what I'm doing anymore. But
they have a bunch of deep dives into SSRIs and
and so there's several that he goes over the side
effects and uh, the the moves that they can do
to counteract those side effects and just kind of explains
you kind of seem to be asking a deeper question
of like almost like a why and like the serotonin
dampening of neurons and responsiveness and stuff like that that

(26:56):
I know he has episodes. I have heard him go
over episodes where he explains that. So I would recommend
the Psychiatry and Psychotherapy podcast. It's it's a really good
resource to just subscribe to you anyway, But if you
go into their archive, they have episodes on serotonin and
SSRIs and side effects and stuff. So that could be good.

Speaker 2 (27:12):
We should clarify because her letter talks about well Buttrin
and you, Jim, we're talking about appropriate right, Well, Buttrin
is the brand name.

Speaker 1 (27:20):
Okay, yeah, so then they'll they'll ask that as a yeah,
just want to clarify. No good catch. Jim doesn't know
what any of the words he said.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
No, no, no, no, I'm just on autopilot right now.
So anyway, that that's all I've got. But don't forget
the tarp.

Speaker 3 (27:35):
Yeah, yeah, that's the most important thing you should take
away from this.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
Even when you think you don't need a tarp, it's
just good to have a tarp.

Speaker 1 (27:43):
You never know that you put down a tarp. No
one ever says I wish it. I don't think it's
the same rules as guns. The only thing that can
stop a bad guy with a tarp and sex is
a good guy with and rhino horn. Yeah, you know,
it's one of those things that's used for evil and good.
I think we can all admit that. You know, we
can be mature, we can we can talk about this.

Speaker 5 (28:02):
We are very mature.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
Yes, white rhino horn can be used for evil guys.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
You won't hear that on Doctor Pruter's.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
Show, you will not. I've also contacted him in the
past and wanted to do it. I bet he's just
waiting to He's just dying to show minimally back, and
I was not upset at all. I was like, hey, man,
thanks for taking one second to listen to the show
long enough to realize you should not be on this show.
This is why we can't have guests.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
I mean, I think it'd be a delight. I'm sure
it would be. We would all learn a lot. But anyway,
any notes on this one, Nick.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
No, that's it.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
You guys covered it very well. As far as uh,
switching from one to another, I haven't heard of anything
as being dangerous. Now, if going from an SSRIR to
an antidepressant.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
Yeah, they'll we'll have an trading schedule and so your
doctor will tell you how they want you to go
about this, and it usually involves decreasing milligrams of A,
will increase milligrams of B and that way. Just you
don't experience any kind of like gear shift in your
brain as you're switching from one of the other. And
of course, don't change your medicine without talking to your doctor.
For always talk to your doctor, and as always, with

(29:13):
a little razor blade. That's right. As cool as it looks,
it does look cool. Don't do it.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
Sitting there with a cheese grater. You know, I bet
I can get a milligram off of this.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
Well, I mean we all have scales, you know, we
all have very very highly sensitive scales most people, and
very little baggiest little baggies of those little twisty tie
things too. Anyway, thank you for this question, Good luck
with this, and we hope to hear that your orgasms
come roaring back.

Speaker 2 (29:41):
Don't forget about a Yeah, that's a good follow up email.

Speaker 1 (29:44):
Yeah yeah, oh yeah. We want to know.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
We want to hear that this is tests. I mean,
the problem is test is going to tell us the discord.
I just wanted to be official. I just want this
to be something that we all get to note together.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
We're going to take a quick break and when we
come back, we're going to talk about shame over drunken behavior.
Her you're listening to pod therapy. Good job. That will
not come back to by here today.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
This episode is brought to you by Robert Robert Brownie,
Jinger Min's Kayla Lansberry, Kevin Chamberlain, Ben Stanley, Adam Hathway,
Dan Martin, lib Hey, Yo, Andrew Langmead, Chad meg and
Incan the Prince. Would you like to sponsor the show?
Become a therap producer patron dot com Slave therapy. All right,
we're gonna have to buzz in.

Speaker 1 (30:26):
You say we never do. Let's just do buzzes. Yeah,
the listener has no fucking clue the buzz but nickname
do whatever. Actually, I don't know. This is an honesty policy.
Here we go. Uh, what we've got is we have ship.
You got there?

Speaker 5 (30:43):
We have ship?

Speaker 1 (30:43):
All right?

Speaker 2 (30:45):
Bad movie descriptions. Oh the I give you the description,
and you've got to guess the movie.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
It's gonna be that iron fucking eagle. Here we go.
It's a whole iron.

Speaker 5 (30:54):
Eagle's gonna it's gonna be one of the.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
Speakers, any iron eagle. I got it, all right. A
group spends nine hours returning jewelry. Uh buzz yes, Lord
of the Rings, Yes, O God, Sam, it's because those
are movies.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
I was almost going to guess Ocean's eleven, Like is
there one where the putting it back?

Speaker 4 (31:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (31:25):
But nine hours?

Speaker 5 (31:26):
That good one.

Speaker 2 (31:27):
Jesus drops up rich guy A dresses like an animal
and beats up a mentally ill clown.

Speaker 1 (31:35):
Rich guy dresses like animal mentally animal huh and beats
up a mentally ill fucking it's probably gonna okay, So
like is it it? Oh?

Speaker 5 (31:48):
I thought was it? But but mentally ill?

Speaker 1 (31:52):
Like disturbed? Maybe like a violent.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
The new one?

Speaker 1 (31:59):
Fuck?

Speaker 3 (32:00):
Is it like Batman or one of the Batmans?

Speaker 5 (32:05):
Batman? Dark Knight, Dark Knight scream way too long?

Speaker 1 (32:19):
I came on us. Damn good job, Whitney. I'm glad
we got there. Talking frog convinces son to kill his dad.
I mean, we're all immediately going to kermit, right.

Speaker 4 (32:35):
It's not the princess.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
Definitely not a real frog. Okay, that's a poor description.

Speaker 3 (32:42):
Talking Okay, So someone convinces their son.

Speaker 5 (32:45):
Wait say it again the last time son?

Speaker 2 (32:47):
Talking frog convinces son to kill his dad. Convinces a song.

Speaker 4 (32:52):
Son not his son, but not the frog son hamlet wreck.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
Oh good guys, but no, all right, all right, yeah,
talking they're killing and Trek. There's so many Trek movies.
I'm positive I haven't seen all of them. Fuck, dude,
I'm like, okay, do you have more hints that can
I can make more hints, all right, we'll take them.
It was part of a trilogy talking O Buzz Star Wars.

Speaker 2 (33:20):
Yes, yeah, Yoda Yoda, Luke to kill his dad never
very much red hair. Yeah yeah, it's a yoga.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
But I believe, and I will take my point. And
now it's even.

Speaker 4 (33:36):
Okay, here we.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
Are, let's go.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Let's go one more tiebreaker for a billionaire takes a
nap and messes up New York. Ah, a billionaire takes
a nap, messes up New York.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
Wow, billionaire. I mean I don't watch theaper Man movies.
I feel like maybe that's relevant. Takes a nap.

Speaker 5 (34:05):
I'm gonna buzz.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
I don't think I'm right, but the who's the iron
Man guy?

Speaker 1 (34:10):
Oh, Robert Downey Jr.

Speaker 5 (34:12):
Robert Downey Jr.

Speaker 4 (34:14):
One of those persons.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
Are okay, Robert Downey Junior.

Speaker 5 (34:18):
I mean yeah, that's his name right where.

Speaker 7 (34:21):
He is.

Speaker 5 (34:23):
A lot of movies iron Man, iron Man, Sure, iron Man.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
I don't want to it.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
No, okay, that's not only guess billionaire billionairess nap must
fall asleep, and.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
Like I'll give you a hand. The writer and director
was Christopher Nolan.

Speaker 5 (34:41):
This isn't another darkness buzz?

Speaker 1 (34:46):
What the fuck is that movie called inception? Yes? What?

Speaker 5 (34:50):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (34:52):
I don't come on? What this game? I'm angry, I'm hurt.

Speaker 3 (34:58):
Jacob loves it, Jacob w Okay, this is hard, Jesus,
It's as hard as a sex frustrated pirate.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
Hard, so hard, scurvy.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
Shames from my drunken behavior.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
Scurvy when he shouts when finished, so good, I have
an illness.

Speaker 5 (35:24):
No, this hasn't been created already.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
On like ice cream see sex starve pirate? All right,
shame for my drunken behavior from anonymous. Hey, friends, pronouns
are he and him. Hello all, I'm writing to you
four Beautiful Souls as an official therapod now since this
is my second time writing in thank you, and I
figured I need to support you all because you support
me every week with your insight and laughs. So I've

(35:49):
got a doozy at least for me, I've never carried
such shame before. I'll set the scene. I'm in my
early thirties, married with two kids, a one and two
year old. My wife and I work opposite schedules. When
I come home, she leaves. It's incredibly tiring. Day in
and day out, but we recognize how lucky we are
to save on childcare. It's my wife's thirtieth birthday in

(36:11):
a few days, and I've planned the whole weekend for her.
For my thirtieth birthday, she planned a surprise party for
me and man it was so impactful that I wanted
to give back for hers. The night of the shame,
we are hosting her friends before we all head out
to a concert. This means that when I leave work,
I run to the grocery store, liquor store, clean the

(36:31):
house frantically for the next hour and a half, set
the scene. When friends do arrive, I play bartender and DJ,
just really trying to host and welcome all in while
taking care of the kiddos for half of the party.
I love taking care of others. I unfortunately did not
take care of myself. As I'm making drinks and taking
shots with others which I never take shots, I forget

(36:52):
to eat the whole night and hours before people arrived.
Fast forward, we arrive at the concert, but by the
time we make it inside, our aready browning out. From
what I've been able to piece together from other stories.
For the first fifteen or twenty minutes. I was jovial,
happy as I usually am when I've tied a few down. However,
the rest of the night was a nightmare. I'm surprised

(37:13):
I wasn't punched in the mouth. In fact, my wife
said she stopped her friend from punching me so that
he would not get in trouble, not to save me,
and frankly, I agree with her. I absolutely deserved it.
I was physically aggressive, lightly shoving my wife away from
me and my best friend, publicly raunchy with my wife,
embarrassing her, saying very very hurtful things to her and

(37:37):
her friends, making death stares to people I just met,
wandering off to I don't know, I just wandered off,
I guess elsewhere, and my wife would have to come
chase me down and babysit me, which stole her away
from her friends that she rarely ever gets to see,
as well as the entire concert. The group of people
I was with were great at first. They continued welcoming

(37:58):
me back with excitement to try and lift my spirits.
I don't think they realized I was completely gone, unaware
of how absent mindedly drunk I was. My wife is
an actual saint. Before this night, I knew that already,
but wow, she showed a grace and respect to me
that I absolutely did not deserve. She stayed with me
the whole time, even though I made her cry three

(38:21):
separate times. It was so bad that people that she
ran into from high school were wondering why she was
with such a monster, and complete strangers slash women in
the restroom, telling her to dump my ass, hugging her
as she cried. I was an absolute alcohol induced monster,
A monster to the person closest to my heart, mother

(38:42):
of my children, and to everyone around me. My best
friend that night was able to talk some sense into
me as I sobered up. He took me under his
wing later in the night and really helped me realize
how big I messed up that this one was on me.
Safe to say, I ruined my wife's thirtieth birthday. I
ruined the whole weekend we were supposed to celebrate. She

(39:03):
of course, didn't want anything to do with me. The
next day, and the day after that, she didn't know
if she even wanted to stay with me. I had
to learn from others what happened that night, Shock after shock,
and I am still in shock disbelief that I had
that monster inside of me. My best friend believes this
was coming from a place of jealousy, that I was

(39:24):
upset that others were stealing my rare time away from
my wife or with my wife because I mentioned something
about that in my drunken slurry of words. Everyone knows
me as the family man, the social worker, that the peaceful,
lovable politics guy that's all about social justice. Now there
are strangers out there that only know me from my

(39:45):
death stare her friends that I've met only a handful
of times, that I've had awesome times with in the past,
remember me as this unhinged fool. And my wife who
said she's never been so surprised and felt betrayed. I've
dealt with past traumas growing up, and through the years
of counseling, I've been able to work things out. Those

(40:06):
were things that happened to me, not because it was
my fault, but this, this is all my fault. I've
never had to write such a wrong. I've never felt shame,
this deep embarrassment, seen myself as this monster. I've never
wanted to crawl into a hole and never come out again.
The last few days, I've had many talks with my wife,

(40:27):
both crying. I've decided I'm done drinking for good, so
that I never become this monster again, for myself, for
my wife, for my kids. Frankly, something I should have
done in the past. Not that I was this monster before,
but alcohol has been a part of those past traumas.
When growing up, I've also flirted with alcoholism, but never

(40:47):
crossed the line, always lived on it. I've apologized, cried,
lost sleep, and texted her friends individually. I'm trying my
best to clean up the mess as best as I can,
but of course there's no going back. I've ruined her birthday,
and I've stained my wife and her friend's minds as
the unhinged monster that I am. I've taken all the

(41:09):
heat and kept my defenses down because frankly, there is
no defense. Yes, it was never my intention. In fact,
it was never my intention. In fact, my intention was
the best to celebrate the absolutely beautiful human being my
wife is. The whole weekend, I just lost control, and
now I'm facing the reality of not being aware enough

(41:30):
of my own limits. I don't know how to move
on other than showing her I'm serious. I'm done drinking,
and now her mom won't speak to me as I've
really hurt her daughter, which I understand. If this happened
to my daughter, I'm sure I do the same. I'm
just lost. I don't know how to see myself as
before I didn't know this monster lived within me. Thank

(41:52):
you all for your time doing the show. It truly
helps week in and week out. From anonymous, Okay, was
not deserving of anybody's help or compassion. I think we
could just move right on.

Speaker 2 (42:08):
Do we just back the bus up on themselves so much?

Speaker 1 (42:11):
I figured I might as well pile on more shovels
onto this grave sober.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Once in a while on social media I come across
something that's actually helpful.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
And this it was. It was actually helped me.

Speaker 4 (42:27):
It touched it actually happened.

Speaker 1 (42:29):
It was the story. It touched me.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
But it was this, uh, it was this story. Somebody
was talking about this story, and who knows if it's
true or whatever, but talking about this Buddhist monk who
was talking to his students and is about this scenario
in which the student was holding a cup of coffee
and someone ran into them and it spilled out and

(42:52):
it was coffee spilled, and so he's like, he asked
the students, Okay, why did you spill your coffee and
they all said, well, because someone bumped into me. And
so he's like, he explained, No, He's like, you spilled
coffee because you were holding coffee. If you were holding water,
you would have spilled water. And so he is basically
making the point that whatever you hold onto is what

(43:14):
you will spill. So when life bumps into you or
when all these things happen, whatever you're holding onto, whether
that's fear, guilt, or shame, it will spill out. And
so if you're holding on to positive things, then positive
things will spill out when life goes wrong. So yeah,
So it's just kind of this idea of like it

(43:35):
you need to always be mindful of the things that
you're holding onto kind of made me think of this
because with my experience working with people with substance use,
I was very.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
Much waiting to hear y'alls and fit on this because
I'm like, that's a little bit where my mind went.

Speaker 5 (43:47):
But as like, you guys have all that history, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
Because no one, no one's doing really well in their
life and has everything going their way and then drinks
then becomes a complete asshole. Like, alcohol doesn't change who
you are. Alcohol allows those parts.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
Of you to come out.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
I always I've always heard people say that, I never
like that a whole.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
Lot because it doesn't. It doesn't it's because you're an asshole.
That's fine.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
But alcohol also does not amplify all traits equally.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
No, true, I would agree with that. Yeh yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
So like if you are, but I'm saying amplify because
I'm substituting the word amplify because that's how I always
look at it is. Alcohol kind of amplifies characteristics within you.

Speaker 5 (44:32):
Okay, it was already there, it's making it.

Speaker 6 (44:34):
But I mean, if you are, you know, normally a
two percent asshole, and alcohol jumps you up to a
thirty percent asshole, right and doesn't jump up the compassion
on the other side at the same time, Well, then
you look.

Speaker 2 (44:46):
Like an asshole and then you look like a monster.
But that doesn't mean that you are an asshole and
that you are a monster. Let me rephrase it in
a different way, hit me, okay, I'll put this in
audio guy terms, do it.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
Okay, So you have a pirate over you think of, uh, don't.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
Think of alcohol as being something that amplifies. Think of
You've got a part of your brain that acts like
a compressor. Okay, and so it's it's decreasing that signal.

Speaker 5 (45:15):
Okay, Yeah, and alcohol, I don't understand any.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
Alcohol turns off the compressor. Okay, that's I think that's
a better way of looking at it.

Speaker 1 (45:25):
Brick oppressor still affects everything equally.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
Okay, yes, yes, yes, so it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
So like you know, if if I'm doing well and
having a good day, there's still may be parts of
me or things that I think or feel, but I've
got another part of my brain that's holding that down
and keeping it contained.

Speaker 6 (45:49):
Or you might not like it might be in your
brain normally, but you you get a little drunk, and
alcohol might make you fixate on that a little bit more,
whereas you would normally fix on it, fixate on it.

Speaker 3 (45:58):
Yeah, yeah, I This kind of reminds me of one
of my best friends since childhood, and we've we've openly
talked about this being an issue we had, but it
was actually I want to say, for our friend's thirtieth birthday,
this is ironic now that I'm thinking about it.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
It is ironic? Is this just Peter right now?

Speaker 3 (46:21):
He did say, help me in secrets? No, So one
of my childhood best friends we go. I tagged along
on a cruise with one of her friends who was
turning thirty, and I like knew her kind of well, but.

Speaker 5 (46:34):
I was like, all right, I'll jump along.

Speaker 3 (46:36):
So while we're on this cruise, my best friend she
one of these nights is just like shit faced drunk like.

Speaker 5 (46:45):
She's and on a cruise.

Speaker 3 (46:45):
That's kind of scary because it turns out like midnight,
rolls around, two am, rolls around. I'm like trying to
go to bed, and I'm like, is she gonna go overboard?
Like I don't know, Like I don't know if you
all been on cruises, Like is she gonna fall off?
Like I don't fucking know. It's kind of scary. It's
dark out there, and I'm like, I don't know what
she's doing. So anyway, we had a whole excursion plan

(47:06):
the next day to go like swim in these underground caves.
It was amazing, But what happened was because they were
out so late, we had to be up at like
six or seven am to do this, and by two
am she still was not back in the room. So
I like, get up, I get her going in. This
other girl in the room who was with us, I
had just met her on this trip and she had

(47:26):
stayed out late to drinking, and so I'm like, all right,
we gotta get up, we gotta go. The three of
us go on this ride. The van on the way
to the the underwater thing had to pull over so
they could vomit on the way there. Wow, they're like
sleeping in the back of the van all like.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
That.

Speaker 3 (47:46):
I hope not, because I was like sorry, and so
we get in the water. The water's really cold, so
that felt good to them. But it was just like
the short version is it.

Speaker 5 (47:56):
I was upset.

Speaker 3 (47:57):
I was like, hey, uh, we're on this vacation, you
have kids, you have family, of all these stressors in life,
we don't get to see each other that often. This
was gonna be really fun. This is an awesome excursion,
and you just got like ship face stayed up all
night and like, drag your ass out here your vomity,
like this sucks.

Speaker 5 (48:16):
Like uh.

Speaker 3 (48:17):
So we've had other conversations since then about like, hey,
why do you turn to drinking, and she is not
a person that sucks. She's like an amazing human, right,
But these things come out sometimes when she's drinking because
she's like, well, I don't get to let loose, you know,
I have to keep everything together. Like it kind of
reminds me what you're saying, Nick, where they have to
they have to have all their shit together. There's no

(48:39):
outlet sometimes and so then the alcohol brickla too far,
brings the dam down, so the floodgates open.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
And it's like I when.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
Parties show up in Las Vegas and they say that, oh,
this party, this this big group of people. This is
like a conference or a meeting or whatever. There are
always a couple of groups that when you hear it's
that group, you go, motherfuckers are gonna get torn down today.
One of them is I think Less Surprise.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
College just kind of come get tore up. Yeah, yeah, crops,
come get toe the fuck up. Yeah. The other one though,
elementary school teachers.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
If there's a group of elementary school teachers coming, those
fuckers are going to party.

Speaker 5 (49:23):
Right, Yeah, that's what they're doing. They're just letting loose.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
You're gonna cut like body shots. I'm gonna tell you
I can confirm this. So my wife's teacher, and they'll
have you know, big end of your parties and stuff,
you know, the teachers and like she's not a person
that wants to party or whatever.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
And what it's always surprised your wife teach too elementary
or elementary, but like I mean, it is, it's always
surprising the stories of how hardbody goes. People well, people
falling in the pool, you know, like I mean just
all over the place. You also have usually have a
big age right yeah. Yeah, like you have some of
the older teachers, but then you have like the right

(50:03):
out of college teachers, right and you know they're teaching
second grade because they are only twenty two or twenty.

Speaker 5 (50:09):
Three and partying.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
Yeah, like they're still partying like they're in their twenties.
So Catholic priests, yeah, I've heard that one.

Speaker 1 (50:16):
That's a big yeah. Yeah, yah, they party, man, they
get into that communion wine. So oh is that what
they call those kids? That's what they're called.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
Jesus, you're the one who said get into Oh.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
No, honestly, you might as well have been wearing shorts.
Oh there it is so okay.

Speaker 3 (50:34):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (50:35):
Anonymous I have a few notes on this that I'm
gonna be Usually I think i'm chipper Jim, and I'm
usually kind of on your side on things. I'm gonna
nudge you a little bit. I'm gonna this is gonna
be challenging. So I think a couple of things can
happen in this kind of a story. As I'm hearing
the story, I like that you're taking the track of
saying I am going to stop. I need to stop drinking.

(50:56):
This is this is not the first time that I
have got too far, and it's been a problem in
my life. But there's some language that you're using that
I think I want to shine a light on and
I want to talk a little bit about context. And
this is just coming from backgrounds working in substance abuse,
so one of the things that often happens with especially men.
But I see this across the board with people that
abuse alcohol. A lot of times they feel justified because

(51:18):
they're like, I work hard, I pay the bills, I'm
a good guy. And in your letter, my friend, I
hear that, I hear I take care of the kids.
I was taking care of her. We work on different
shifts when never see each other, you know, my friend
is sympathetic to me, is like, you know, man, it's
probably because like you don't to spend enough time with
your little jealous like you just miss her. And it's like,
you know, in your story, you're like I was DJing,
I was bartending, I was doing all the shopping. I

(51:39):
was in the grocery, and like that can fuel these
kinds of events because we're like, you know what, I'm
putting on a great show for her. She's gonna have
a great night. I'm paying for a concert, I'm throwing
everything at her. I'm giving her a great night. I'm
gonna have a good time too. I deserve to have
a good time too. And that little voice in the
back of your head's like she can't say shit about it,
because like I'm I'm giving her a great night. She

(52:01):
surrounded by friends. I'm not the center, She's the center.
I can just get sauced. And that's how I'm gonna
enjoy myself. I'm gonna enjoy myself too. And I'll bet
that doesn't have to be an active line of thought either, right,
it doesn't even have to be active, but like it's
it's subtly back there in the back of our heads
is I'm this you know I deserve it. And this
is where a lot of people who end up with

(52:22):
a really bad relationship with alcohol get to And you
said in your letter, like, you know, I've danced on
the line of alcoholism, but I've never crossed over it.
I wonder if you have, because what that means. Let's
talk about that line, writer, because this is where a
lot of people justify things. They say, Oh, I'm not
like so and so. There's always a so and so,
there's always people you grew up with, there's always friends

(52:43):
that you have. You're like the guy under the bridge
that's an alcoholic. Oh, my friend Tom, he's an alcoholic.
He wakes up and has to suck down, you know,
fit the vodka to get the shakes off him. That's
what an alcoholic is. But no, that's not what we
in the profession think of as alcoholism. You can be
a binge who's sober most of the week. You know,
you're sober six and a half days a week, and

(53:04):
then you have this one big tremendous thing where you
suck it all down and like you're really going overboard.
You change who you are and there's this self destructive pattern.
We might still look at that and call it alcoholism
isn't even a word we really use that much. We're
talking about your relationship to alcohol, alcohol use disorder. Yeah,
And so we change the way we think about this
and what we're looking for. Writer is usually a handful

(53:25):
of general criteria we could get into, like the really
medical weeds about this, but big picture, how we know
there's a problem. One. We want to see this over time. Right,
if it's the first time you've ever drank and you
had a bad weekend of it, we're not looking at
you and thinking of a bad relationship with that whole right, Yeah,
even if it was yucky and it hungover and made
a mass like Okay, we're looking for a chronic had
a bad week? Yeah? Have you had a bad relationship

(53:47):
a sporadic relationship with alcohol six months or longer? Do
you have emotional or physical cravings for alcohol? And that's
the emotional part is the one that people sleep on
because I think, oh no, I don't have cravings. I
don't get the shakes, Like that's not what I asked.
I didn't ask about with draw symptoms. That would have
been a different question I'm talking about, is this something
that you look for as a way to like equalize

(54:07):
your life. Do you feel like, oh, man, if we're
going out, I really hope I can have Are you
planning it?

Speaker 2 (54:11):
Are you thinking like if you if you have the shakes,
if you have physical symptoms of it level the conversation
gets a lot simple, that that's a really fast you're
physically hurting, physically dependent on.

Speaker 6 (54:22):
Us, and that that is a that is an easier
conversation to have because we're not talking about is this
person an alcoholic?

Speaker 1 (54:29):
Yes, it is.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
This person has over indulged in this drug and has
physically injured themselves.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
Yes, and now we have to deal with.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
That now your body top of the alcoholism and everything else,
but the alcoholism, like, we're not worried that this person
likes the drink.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
We're worried that this person has the fucking shakes. And
my die to I let go of the word alcoholism
because this is where a lot of people get because
they think it's like, yeah, I'm not in the alcoholic club.
I'm not an alcoholic. I'm not you know, don't have alcoholism.
And it's like that has distracted so many people from
stopping and changing their lives because they think that there's
a threshold, right, and like it's really this gray area
of your relationship to alcohol is unhealthy and it must

(55:06):
be changed, right, And so like you're right, Jacob, If
you're physiologically dependent on the chemical of alcohol in your
blood colfunction, your shit's falling apart. Now you need medical deals.

Speaker 6 (55:18):
We don't have questions, and more importantly, the writer doesn't
have questions, right, because then the writer is writing and
going like I can't control my hands enough to type
out this email.

Speaker 1 (55:27):
That's different. But like drinking yourself sick is a real problem.
So like if you've been drinking for longer than six months,
your relationship with alcohol goes back more than six months.
That's one criteria. We're looking for, physical or emotional or
mental health cravings for the alcohol. It's a thing that
you long for, You pine for, you fantasize about you,
think about you, budget time, and emotions, force that you
can get it into you so that you can live

(55:48):
your life. Another thing we're looking for is have you
tried to cut back but have failed? Have you tried
to stop? Have you tried to cut back? If you
promise yourself. Okay, no more liquor, only beer, Okay, no more,
be truly look like yep, I'm only going to drink
with friends. Okay, I'm only drinking on weekends. Okay, I'm
only drinking when we don't have the kids. Okay, I'm
not drinking anymore. I'm taking a break. Okay, Well, nah,
I think I'm back. I don't want to mess up

(56:09):
the night I'm gonna have. If you've made these promises
and you've constantly tried to negotiate this, you've tried to
cut back, but you have failed, that's a symptom that
we are looking for.

Speaker 2 (56:16):
It's like making a list of things that you want
to do before you turn forty years old, yes, and
then arguing with other people to what should and should list.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
That's exactly it. It's accountability that goes away. And the last
one that we're looking for is using despite negative consequences.
If you've had negative consequences and writer in your story,
you tell us that this is not the first time
the monster has come out before, but never quite this bad.
What you're talking about is just new rock bottoms that
you're discovering, But there have been negative consequences in your life,

(56:48):
and that has not deterred you. You've always come back,
even though you've been shaken, even though you've been startled,
even though you've lost friendships, even though people have thought
less of you. Even though it's been bad, you've been
in danger, You've gotten legal consequences, whatever it was, health consequences,
financial consequences, relational consequences. Bad things have happened that you
have had regrets over, and you have still not stopped.
All of this is what we are looking to when

(57:09):
we assess whether or not you have an unhealthy relationship
with alcohol. And that's what we're looking for. There's not
some magic line that now we does it, you know, Nick,
like you know, does the sign of the cross over
you and now you're an alcoholic like we see it.
That's not what does have that authority. Yeah, he can't,
don't you piszic. He will be you.

Speaker 2 (57:31):
That's right, I mean, honestly, don't put me in that position.

Speaker 1 (57:33):
Yeah, that's right. That puts you right. Want me to
do it? You made it, steps in front of the shot.
So all of this is just to I think bring
a little bit of a challenge to you. Writer that
at the end of the day. People that quit alcoholic,
people that go to alcoholics anonymous. The criteria to go
to AA is not that you are an alcoholic, they
tell you at the door. The only criteria they have

(57:55):
to come to AA meetings is a desire to stop drinking.
That's it. So there's not some bright line that you
have to get to. You have to get to the
ninth level of hell. And now you actually have a problem.
Now it's time to stop. It's time to stop. The
moment you realize that at any given time, any roll
of the dice, my night could go terribly and other

(58:16):
people do not have that problem that you. The only
drink you can control is the first drink. And you
can tell yourself, oh, this one got away from me
because I didn't put some food in my belly. All
this one got away from me because I was having
so much fun. All this one got away from because
I was entertaining others, taking shots with friends. I was
having a good time. And all those things can be true.
That can be true. But I've had a lot of
people that when I've worked with them and we've gotten
deeper and deeper and deeper into this, they sit down,

(58:37):
and when they finally get fucking honest, they tell me
I knew what I was doing the entire goddamn time.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
And I only say that it can be true, to
say that, it doesn't matter if it is true, right
it is, It is beside the point. If it is true.
I am a drinker. I'm around people who drink a
lot of working taym an industry. We all like it is.
It is a part of my industry. I have a
hard and fast rule. I have this rule for myself.
I have this rule for my life once. I have
this rule for my friends and people that I'm out with.

(59:02):
Whatever you do, you're responsible for, right. That's the alcohol,
the drugs, whatever it is. It doesn't change who is
responsible for your actions. You're still responsible for each and
every action that you that you do. And when you
look like an assholena, you look like an asshole, right,
I mean.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
I assault like you'll understand that's not how I know.

Speaker 6 (59:25):
My friends like, I'm not always that person, but last
night I was an asshole.

Speaker 1 (59:29):
I was drinking. But that can't the drinking can't be
an excuse. But if you're always an asshole when you're drinking, now,
it's your fault for putting that in you and being
an asshole that it's your.

Speaker 2 (59:36):
Fault no matter what. Right, Oh no, no, no, I
am I am on team. It's your fault. Yeah, I
am very heavily on team. It is your fault. So yeah,
if you and I would say learn something from this experience.
I'm always a little edgy about saying things like making
life decisions in these moments, saying like I'm never going
to drink again that may or may not be too high.

(01:00:00):
I have a goal to set in this moment and
just something to let yourself down over later. But you know,
you can definitely say like I will not drink to
excess again. I will not make an ass of myself again.
You can make, you can make, you know, smaller promises
to yourself. If that's not something that you feel comfortable
doing with. If you do, then fucking a Like, if
that's where you want to go with it, cool like that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
I want to jump in with a subtle caveat on that,
because there's a lot of people that will not take
the first step because they feel like, well, don't take
the first if you can't take the ten thousandth and
so it's like, well, if I can't promise you're never
going to do it again, then I shouldn't stop at all.
I should just regulate. And it's like you've already demonstrated
an inability to regulate this. That's how I know it's
a problem for you. And so like that, I don't

(01:00:44):
want you stopping. It's just like with the SSRIs, it's like,
don't not take them because you've heard there's a side
effect like something with alcohol. Don't not quit alcohol because
you're scared. You can't do it for forty years. Tell
your and the AA. They say, just for today, I'm
not drinking. I'm not. I don't know what I'm gonna
do tomorrow, but I know today I am not okay
with it. It's not good for me. I'm not gonna
I think you're saying what I was trying to say. Yeah,
I think you're saying it better. But yeah, that's YEA

(01:01:06):
with a more piratey accent. Are got to get those
hard rs. That's right, that's right.

Speaker 5 (01:01:12):
There's something that kind of jumped out to me.

Speaker 3 (01:01:14):
I agree with everything you said in those role like
amazing points and you have You and Nick both have
a lot of experience with that, so I feel.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
Like we do well more than we'd like pegging. Yeah,
we we We've had our fair share of you know
something time over the seven seas. Swab deck is scaley
deck was right there, I was right there.

Speaker 7 (01:01:40):
Swab.

Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
My deck's pretty fucking good. Swab the poop deck is
better come up landed. Stick the landing. Just because an
eight it's fine, doesn't mean I shouldn't go for the tent.

Speaker 4 (01:01:55):
Advice today.

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
Solid.

Speaker 3 (01:01:58):
But no, the naming. I know he's not saying that
the alcohols a monster, but he keeps like it sounds
like separating himself from it. So this monster lived within me.
It kind of to me sounds a little bit like
that's a hard thing to hear and accept. Writers, So

(01:02:18):
I say this gently where we don't want to believe
that we're capable.

Speaker 5 (01:02:24):
Of those things.

Speaker 3 (01:02:24):
So kind of gaining separation by saying this monster within me,
it sounds like that's maybe what's happening there. You're trying
to remove yourself from proximity to like these hurtful things
you did to somebody that you love. I also tapping
into kind of some jso juvenile sex funder treatment because

(01:02:45):
it's a little adjacent to addiction, the beating yourself up
and just really laying into yourself. I get why you're
doing it, because that's how you're feeling, but please try
to not do so much of that, really really work
on like trying to work on that self esteem and say, well,

(01:03:08):
I'm worth trying for I'm worth like not, Oh, I'm
this worthless piece of shit because I did this hurtful thing.

Speaker 5 (01:03:14):
I'm just a monster.

Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
I don't deserve I don't even deserve her, Like, no,
you know what, I deserve to work hard for this relationship.
I deserve to be happy because I want I want
my significant other to be happy. I want my kids
to see me a certain way. Like your kids are
so young right now. You have so much room for
improvement here. And I'm also really glad to hear that.
And on one hand, at least this is happening. They're

(01:03:36):
coming to the surface now and you're writing in You're
talking about therapy, You're talking about trying to reconcile with
like friends, her friends, her family.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
I love the making amends, already owning it, taking accountability,
and like, I'm very comfortable and everybody's different on this, Yeah,
I'm very comfortable differentiating me from the monster, and I'll
use external as a concept therapy. I'm very comfortable with
that because like, for me personally, I relate to this
like drunk. Jim is fundamentally a different guy and I

(01:04:07):
don't like him and I'm scared of him sometimes and
I'm worried about the things he can do in the world,
and so like that, that Doctor Jekyll mister Hyde, you know,
concept is extremely relatable and I think a lot of
humans feel that way. And if you realize that mister
Hyde lives inside of you, then it is your fucking
responsibility to never let that fuck her out right, and
to understand that if you know, if you fucking own

(01:04:28):
Jurassic Parks control of.

Speaker 5 (01:04:30):
The monster, it's not the monster got out, it's like exactly, And.

Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
It's like I have to be mindful of that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
I used to use the same analogy and stuff, so
kind of like like, yeah, you've got this monster inside you.
I think that's a I would agree with Jim in
that sense that it's it's a fine understanding to have
a fine way to uh to look at it, because
then it kind of puts things into perspective. But then
also I think, kind of going back to Jacob's point

(01:04:56):
as far as like responsibility, it's like thank you, It's like, well,
don't let the monster drive the car. Yeah, right, like
you you still own the car, right, you can drive
if you want to, or you can let the monster
drive if you want to.

Speaker 5 (01:05:12):
But then you got.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
It's like Batman when Harvey Dent is like, yeah, no,
the joker is a fucking psychopath. I'm here for the
guy that let him out, Like, yeah, no, we all
know what he's capable of. One of you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
Fuckers let him out, though, that's on you, Like, yeah,
you will be held responsible for that. All of that
accountability talk, I think is where people show up to rehab.

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
It's where people show up to counseling. It's where people
start asking for help. I agree with what you said
to Whitney, and this is something we say a lot
in substitute treatment. Shame and guilt are not tools. We
can't use them. We can't use them to build anything,
but they're really fucking good at breaking through the wall
of denial. They are essentially sledgehammers. We can't build much
with them, but there's a turn. Yeah, there's a time

(01:05:52):
where you need to go ahead and pick that fucker up,
and you need to shatter every illusion that you have
that this has not been a problem in your life,
that is not sporadically going to be a problem in
the future, that the risks do greatly outweigh the rewards.
And if you can shatter those problems or that that
thinking with the sledgehammer of shame, then you put it down,

(01:06:12):
and now you begin the work of reconstructing and building
a better you. And again, I don't want you having
to make huge lifetime decisions here about I'll never touch
alcohol again. I'm not trying to like fucking proselytize for sobriety.
I drink, you know, But like I just having worked
in this industry a long time and seeing a lot
of people go through what you've gone through, it's very
easy a month later to fucking shrug it off, Anonymous,
because your wife starts sleeping with you again, You're you're

(01:06:34):
playing with your kids, your friends are nice to you again,
You're around your family. Yeah, you start sitting to your
mother in law again behind your wife's back. Everything's back
to normally. Yeah, you're dressing up for Halloween and you go,
you know what, I'm not a bad guy. Nobody sees
me as a bad guy that bygones are bygones. I'll
make it. They don't know mother in law right, well yeah, yeah,
if they do that, they be you know, it's frowned upon,

(01:06:58):
you know in some c so I mean, but yeah,
like it's very easy to sweep us back under the rug.
And that's why I guess you've taken the time to
write into the show. I believe that you wrote into
the show in a moment of distress and really spilling
your guts, and I guess I want to honor that
by saying, don't waste this moment of pain. Let it
wake you up. Your relationship with alcohol is out of balance,

(01:07:21):
my friend. I hope that you will do professional work
to recalibrate.

Speaker 6 (01:07:25):
And the other people too, the friends, the mother in law,
the even your wife. The only way that you're going
to you can apologize to them. You can do all
of these things. The only way that you're going to
actually win them back is by showing them yes, like
their term work. They have learned through your actions what
you look like when you get too drunken out of control, right,
and they're going to learn from your actions what you're

(01:07:46):
going to look like going forward, and that's how they're
going to determine, you know, whether they're going to keep
hanging out with you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
Yeah. And to be clear, if anybody in the audience
is kind of like gritting your teeth a little bit
at some of my fervor on this, the writer clearly
said this is not the first time. This is just
the worst time. And I'm honoring that because when I
see the pattern, that's when I say my job is
to grab you by the shirt and tell you to
wait the fuck up, because like they're they're not gonna
indefinitely forgive you. And I've had so many people that

(01:08:12):
are functional alcoholics. I've had people that are literally surgeons
and fucking medical doctors sweeping it under the rug because
they're really good people and they do really hard work,
and everybody really likes them and respects them, and it
overlooks it eventually, and like they get away with a lot,
and it's like, look, fucking you need to deal with
this shit. If this is habitually a pattern in your life,

(01:08:33):
I'm not telling you be sober for reast of your life.
But I'm telling you cannot afford to sweep this under
the rug and wait till the next time the volcano explodes.
Like every time it does. You look in the mirror
and you go, how do I keep letting this happen?
Because you do not have the ability to control it,
which is how I know it's a disorder. That's how
I know it's a disease. I don't, you know, look
in the mirror. People don't look in the mirror that
have diabetes and go, well, why can't I just focus

(01:08:53):
and make my own goddamn insulin. It's you have an
illness in you're pancreas, You're you're asking it to do
something it cannot do. And the same sense, those who
have an alcohol use disorder are asking their brain to
do something that it cannot do. It cannot regulate its
relationship with this. It's beyond their ability. That's why there's
such a thing as addiction science and medicine, and that's
why we have fucking jobs. So get help, Anonymous. I

(01:09:13):
hope you will. This is something that's worth dealing with.
That being said, I can create insulin at will. Okay, Oh,
you just meditate? Yeah there, Oh, oh ship, Oh did
you just squirt something? Yeah, that's how you put down
the tar. He's like an octopus. He inks whenever he's nervous.

(01:09:35):
It's called la Jacob. When we see you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
Tugging furiously at your shirt, you didn't just you know,
will that in your mind?

Speaker 1 (01:09:44):
Take her to the lab? It is sweet? Okay?

Speaker 4 (01:09:48):
See yeah, yeah, this.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
Is why we're the tarp. This is why you need
the tarp. You'll never regret putting down a tarp. Why
you're going I shouldn't have put the start down. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:10:02):
This is why doctor David Peter is not going to
be on the fucking show. I can tell you that
right because he's anti dart better than this.

Speaker 2 (01:10:08):
If doctor David Titter is anti Tarkic, I don't want
doctor David Peter on this show.

Speaker 1 (01:10:12):
We're gonna take a quick break and when we come back,
we're talking about impostor polyamory. Fuck.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
Yeah, you're listening to. Today's episode is brought to you
by Robert Brownie, j Kayla Lambsberry, Kevin Chamberlain and Stanley,
Adam Hathaway, Dan Martin Live, Hey Yo, Andrews let me,
Chad Meg and Eca Le Prince and if you would
like to sponsor the show, become a therap producer Hatreon

(01:10:37):
dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
Slash therapy, dead men, tap no tastes.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
NASA spends millions to retrieve a gardening enthusiast.

Speaker 1 (01:10:47):
Oh oh oh buzz the Martian.

Speaker 4 (01:10:49):
Yes, yes he's a botanist.

Speaker 1 (01:10:53):
I was thinking Apollo thirteen. I wouldn't literally, I just
rewatched it. I watched it last week. That's so great
worked out for I was like, how do you remember that?

Speaker 5 (01:11:03):
That's like, I don't remember inception that it was a billionaire.

Speaker 1 (01:11:06):
Rich girl, poor boy, freeze to death. Buzz Titanic, damn it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:13):
I was thinking, Guy on vacation nearly gets eaten by
his own clone, Guy on vacation, I don't think this
one's accurate.

Speaker 4 (01:11:25):
Nearly gets eaten.

Speaker 1 (01:11:30):
Guy on vacation nearly gets eaten by Etna.

Speaker 2 (01:11:38):
Okay, his own clone. It's not him, yeah, cloned something
but not him.

Speaker 1 (01:11:45):
Oh, by his own creator.

Speaker 2 (01:11:50):
I don't like that one, Don't that sounds a very
good description? Family can't stop losing their kid.

Speaker 1 (01:11:58):
From alone. Yes, I would gone any of them, all right,
I can't believe alone. At some point CPS takes.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
There are consequences. Okay, angry Scottish woman gives her mom
a bad hair day.

Speaker 1 (01:12:18):
Angry Scottish woman, angry Scottish woman.

Speaker 5 (01:12:27):
I mean, I don't Scottish. I have a guess, but I.

Speaker 4 (01:12:29):
Don't think it's what's your guests hair day.

Speaker 5 (01:12:33):
The Disney movie Brave.

Speaker 8 (01:12:36):
Oh my god, I got wow. Whitney hold that one
out turns into a bear. One of the better Disney movies.

Speaker 1 (01:12:46):
Very good.

Speaker 5 (01:12:48):
I did think that. Utting the answer, I was like,
all right, last.

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):
One, A guy finally gets the girl by changing species.

Speaker 1 (01:12:58):
Oh that's a buzz. I think you got it and
you're at frog prince, no ship?

Speaker 5 (01:13:05):
Is that what your guest was?

Speaker 1 (01:13:06):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:13:06):
Wait, read it again.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
Oh well, buzz buzz shrek no guy. The fly.

Speaker 2 (01:13:14):
Guy finally gets the girl by changing species.

Speaker 1 (01:13:18):
I think this is oh yeah, changing buzz avatar. Yes,
good job, very good. Damn it, good job.

Speaker 2 (01:13:29):
Man waited twice, Yeah avatar, Jesus, what is blue?

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
If I didn't get that one? There is I just
saw the preview for the third one. How they're still doing?
Oh yeah, how can you say?

Speaker 5 (01:13:44):
What's the.

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
Brilliant? Have you seen the naked gun? The new one?

Speaker 2 (01:13:51):
No, the beginning of the movie, there's a bomb thing
that like they're they're working really like all the bank robbers,
is like an ocean eleven thing or getting and they
open up the vault and they pull it out and
it's it's called plot device.

Speaker 1 (01:14:13):
I haven't seen a gun and I haven't seen the
new spinal tap.

Speaker 5 (01:14:16):
Oh yeah those.

Speaker 1 (01:14:18):
Oh yeah, I would recommend it. It's on Paramount, so
check it out. Imposter Polyamory, Hi, guys, I really enjoyed
the show and I have a question that's a little
outside the box. Feel free to pass this one over
if you're not familiar with polyamory. Luckily we all are familiar.
You find out America. I am a woman in my

(01:14:39):
mid thirties and am polyamorous by orientation, which means that
I view it the same as my romantic and sexual orientation.
It's an innate part of who I am. And thanks
for the shout out on demisexuality. If you're well, said
to go. If you're unfamiliar with it. Polly is a
highly stigmatized relational structure under the umbrella of consensual non

(01:15:00):
monogamy or CNM. It means that I have romantic relationships
with multiple people at the same time with everyone's informed
and enthusiastic consent. I've simply never understood why people can
love multiple family members or friends but not romantic partners.
I could go down a rabbit hole on Polly, but
I'll try to keep it brief. I have two partners. Josh,

(01:15:22):
we've known each other for eighteen years now. With romantic
history so convoluted, we don't know how long we've been together.
Who is long distance and is also seeing someone locally
who is semi serious. Michael is local to me. We've
been together for a little over a year, and he
is married with young kids. His wife my Metamoor also
has two other partners that are pretty new now. For

(01:15:45):
the actual issue, it's a running joke that I have
a type, and that type is engineers. Josh and Michael
are both successful in their respective fields, and even when
Michael is driving toward jobs at seventy miles per hour
and even went to the same exclusive engineering college, my

(01:16:06):
Metamoor has a master's degree and works in finance. On
the completely opposite end of the spectrum. I recently quit
my toxic and stressful job in hospitality management, went back
to a CNA job, and am applying to grad school
in a specialized human resources field. It's no secret to
anyone that I am the least intelligent or successful person

(01:16:27):
in our polycule, the network of all connected relationships. The
four of us had our first group date this week,
and all those insecurities hit me like a ton of bricks.
I could barely follow the work related conversations at dinner,
let alone contribute anything worthwhile. Because I see myself as
being worth less than I am. I'm constantly expecting to

(01:16:48):
be vetoed. Michael insists that he would never let that happen,
but I think everyone knows that if it came down
to it, he would of course pick his wife and
the mother of his children. I've been vetoed by Josh's
partners in the past, though we've worked through that. The
problem is that I live with complex PTSD and tend
to withdraw and fawn when I'm in uncomfortable situations, which

(01:17:12):
then causes friction with my partners when they feel me
pull away. My question is how do I stop looking
at my partners like they're better than me and approach
my relationships as if we were all equal partners. My
self worth has come a long way in therapy, but
I just can't seem to let go of the idea
that I'm not good enough for them because I can't

(01:17:34):
match their intellectual or career and financial success. Ironically, I
think Michael is feeling insecure about both of his partners
getting master's degrees, while he's arguably the most successful out
of anyone. I'd appreciate any insight you have on disconnecting
self worth from intelligence and career success, especially in the
context of multiple partners when you're on the bottom end

(01:17:56):
of the scale. Thanks Kate. I like the complexity of this.
That's a good question.

Speaker 5 (01:18:05):
I feel like I can relate to part of this.
Not the part you.

Speaker 1 (01:18:12):
Would like any engineers are running a train on you. Whitney, Well, Whitney, Whitney.

Speaker 3 (01:18:21):
Really ran with that one, ran the tracks with that one. No,
the part where you feel kind of inadequate around others
who are more intelligent than you, especially when it comes
to relationships or dating, like when Peter and I first
started dating. To be honest, that's one of the things
I found really attractive in him, and that I feel

(01:18:44):
attracted toward in anyone that that I was dating before.
That is that like if they're really smart or just
like highly intelligent, I felt that draw to them, So
I get like that attraction there, but then also at
the same time feeling like I'm just a funing idiot
then like I can't hold up to like these conversations
or or what if I get lost or they just

(01:19:05):
think I'm dumb or I don't know. There's a lot
of self talk that goes into that in the beginning,
and I know you're saying, this isn't the beginning.

Speaker 5 (01:19:13):
You've been with these people.

Speaker 4 (01:19:14):
For eighteen years and Josh, Yeah, for Josh.

Speaker 3 (01:19:17):
Right, I think for me, speaking to that side of
it is just really working to find your own value.
I would say in the relationship. I know that's tricky
because kind of relying on other people, but it comes
with that sense of security, Like over eighteen years, why
does Josh keep coming back?

Speaker 5 (01:19:38):
Like why does he say? Because he really cares about you?

Speaker 7 (01:19:40):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:19:40):
And I know that you said a lot of things
are coming up with your other partner with Michael, and
there's like fear that he'll just maybe abandon you and
then right and then mosey on over to yeah, his wife,
he'll be vetoed.

Speaker 1 (01:19:56):
What an interesting dynamic as part of polyamory because like
all of us have the risk that somebody will break
your heart or break up with you, which is functionally
the veto, But this is the veto once removed, right,
because it's not that I'm dating Josh and Josh is
losing interest in me and it's not working out. It's
his partner, if that's the primary, If there is such

(01:20:17):
a thing in that dynamic that person can cast a
veto all the way over to me and end our relationship,
which has happened to Kate. Josh's partners have vetoed her
and she's scared that. Well, Mike's gonna do that too,
because his wife will probably be like, oh, she's dumb
or she's not on our level, which is a whole
nother aspect to this. That boy, that's interesting.

Speaker 5 (01:20:38):
It really is.

Speaker 3 (01:20:40):
I think the writer pointing out in the very beginning
like polyamory is something of an identity for them, and
I like that in a lot of ways, them pointing
out like, oh, we love multiple other people in my life,
like you have children, you love both of your children,
you know one isn't I love this one more? And

(01:21:01):
I don't love you anymore.

Speaker 5 (01:21:04):
Okay, I can't wait to hear about that.

Speaker 1 (01:21:06):
Hold the gold medal for a while.

Speaker 4 (01:21:07):
And that's the same.

Speaker 2 (01:21:09):
Thing you do with your students. You let them for
your love as well, make them fight to the death.

Speaker 5 (01:21:14):
That was why it was, Yeah, where they weren't even
mad He's really done well.

Speaker 1 (01:21:21):
Until they're like, I need his approval. Goddamn.

Speaker 4 (01:21:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:21:25):
So the fawning, you know, I hear that as being like, oh,
let me just kind of make myself into somebody that
that they want to keep around. That's kind of hard
to hear. I think, I just I mean, and having
SEP complex PTSD involved in this is a.

Speaker 5 (01:21:42):
Whole different realm.

Speaker 3 (01:21:44):
And I know you didn't really get into any specifics
there was just fine, but it does. It makes it
a lot harder to find that self confidence, to find
that self worth and not feel those insecurities, even if
nobody's giving you those insecurities right now, Like they're not
sending that mess such to you. It's completely you from
what you've said, like making that up in your head.

(01:22:06):
It's like, well, they think I'm dumb and they're gonna
veto me.

Speaker 1 (01:22:09):
So I've had this happen almost exactly exact story.

Speaker 4 (01:22:15):
Yeah, I was just gonna say we.

Speaker 1 (01:22:18):
Got vetoed and in my Poll relationship, which was my
high school band, and so we had a cool like
punk band and my buddy brought me into it. And
so here we were like four guys trying to play
and like battle the bands very poll, and it just
so happened. The other three dudes were just studs. They
just were gorgeous, like all three of them, but they

(01:22:39):
they weren't dicks about it, but they were like aggressively
handsome and you know, so like each of them is
like a nine slash ten. And I'm in this thing
on talent alone. There was no doubt the man, I'm
here for talent, baby, I'm working my ass.

Speaker 2 (01:22:56):
I want to keep you in the band, but we
need to be really cool. If you could wear this
bad like, we just think you'd be better as like
the boss so punk, Yeah, so punk, It's too great, man,
I love the spider Man.

Speaker 1 (01:23:07):
Dude, just face the back und Yeah exactly. And and
that band was called and this is the part where
I insert the name of that really popular band where
they all wear masks, But I don't know what that
band was. Yeah, kiss that band was called Kiss but no,
like so at some point I remember like we were like,
oh man, my friend had to like kick me out

(01:23:29):
of the band, and it was like why, Like I'm
doing really good, this is all going really well, but
like I got vetoed by another guy who like was
kind of like telling our mutual friend who was my
close friend, like, hey, you know, I don't think Jimmy's
really like, you know, the right fit, you know, for
all of this. And I was like it wasn't ability,
Like I was playing really well, but Okay, I don't

(01:23:50):
think it was just handsomness, because high school boys don't
actually care about that. But these guys were just so
fucking hot, but like it was like being truly punk,
Like they were all really punk, and I would like
preppy punk. And so it was like, is he really
does this work for us? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:24:07):
Like the gym to come to the next recording dressed
is what he thinks of as preppy punk. I already
know what it looks like. Top collar, it's youth pastor.
Yeah he nailed it, nailed metal studded belt, Converse sneakers, Yeah, no,

(01:24:28):
I haven't.

Speaker 5 (01:24:30):
Is great.

Speaker 9 (01:24:31):
The youth it's functionally so but this feeling that like
you can be kicked out of your polycule, your social group,
that this group that you're you care about because you're
not seen as cut from the same cloth.

Speaker 1 (01:24:47):
Like I wasn't punk enough in that case. I think
it was the punk thing, but I wasn't punk enough
to like hang with them.

Speaker 2 (01:24:53):
By the way, they were legitimate and they and they
discussed those things with Jim late.

Speaker 1 (01:24:58):
There was an essay.

Speaker 5 (01:24:59):
Written dire hair Black, Oh exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:25:01):
You know it wasn't like, you know as much as
they were. So like I definitely relate to that issue.
And that's such a strange idea that like you could
be kicked out of your your friendship group, and I
think people relate to that. In life, you'd be kicked
out of a job because like you're not really one
of us. But like this is so intimate and to
like share that connection with somebody and then some like

(01:25:23):
their their other person. It is a.

Speaker 2 (01:25:26):
Riskier relationship in some ways because of that, because you're
you're not just depending on one person to not veto you.

Speaker 1 (01:25:35):
You're depending on a group of people.

Speaker 2 (01:25:36):
You have to you have to keep a group of
people essentially happy with you.

Speaker 3 (01:25:40):
Yeah, well, and the writer keeps mentioning the stuck out
to me, they keep mentioning intelligence and success, and I mean,
I know they kind of call themselves out for this,
but like, what are we what are we calling success?

Speaker 2 (01:25:58):
Is that?

Speaker 5 (01:25:58):
I think that's we're back to the guard, like the
haircut guard.

Speaker 1 (01:26:02):
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah yeah, seven seven in seven guard not.

Speaker 2 (01:26:07):
Not even escaping the fact that a lot of successful
people are not intelligent.

Speaker 7 (01:26:12):
Exactly exactly wealthy person realizing my god, No.

Speaker 3 (01:26:23):
I think the person who did, like Elon Musk's little
biography or whatever, was like, yeah, it's.

Speaker 5 (01:26:30):
Not that smart. He just around himself with people.

Speaker 1 (01:26:32):
Yeah, the movie class Onion portrays that.

Speaker 4 (01:26:36):
Yes, it does, it does.

Speaker 5 (01:26:39):
That's so true.

Speaker 3 (01:26:40):
But yeah, I would just challenge you, like, where does
this idea of what you're calling success, what you're calling intelligence.
It sounds like they're getting together. They're all engineers. They
are going to talk about that. Jim and Nick just
went into like I don't know, or Nick was talking
to Jacob about like compressors and ship I don't.

Speaker 5 (01:26:57):
Know what the fuck that is. Well, that's fair doesn't
know either.

Speaker 3 (01:27:02):
I got Jacobs to get around other musicians and talk
about things I don't have a fucking clue about that
doesn't make them or mean more or less intelligent.

Speaker 1 (01:27:11):
I think we're all comfortable.

Speaker 5 (01:27:14):
I know, I don't. I'm one of two people who doesn't.
Never had a doctorate and.

Speaker 1 (01:27:18):
Never Christmassy goes on the line.

Speaker 5 (01:27:26):
I don't know how.

Speaker 2 (01:27:27):
I never have to put the belt up on the line.
It just comes up once you did once it was
the pudding.

Speaker 3 (01:27:41):
So yeah, I think really digging in, like sitting with
this for you know, when you have some downtime, just
sitting with the idea, like what makes someone successful, what
makes me successful?

Speaker 5 (01:27:52):
What I'm doing? It sounds like you are really educated.

Speaker 3 (01:27:54):
You're like nursing and you know that in itself maud
respect like I could never never.

Speaker 1 (01:28:01):
Right' I'm a social worker. I look up to you.

Speaker 5 (01:28:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:28:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:28:06):
And human resources, which you know is the direction they're
going in a specialized human resources having that high EQ
as well, you know, which your partners may really like.
To me, that's always seemed to be the most appealing
part of the polyamory life. Like I appreciate the writer
saying I'm built this way, and I think there's a
lot of people that are not built that way, but
they do appreciate that. It's like, look, I enjoy a

(01:28:30):
diverse social portfolio. I don't want ten of the same friend.

Speaker 5 (01:28:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:28:33):
I think I can see that argument romantically as well,
of like I really enjoy pair bonding with certain people
in my life and sharing certain aspects of a relationship
with that person that I just can't have with somebody else. Right,
there's a lot of people get drawn into like the
swinger lifestyle, the poly lifestyle from that entire road, and
I think that's really redemptive to your argument here, writer,

(01:28:54):
because it's like, okay, there, Yeah, they are already four
fucking engineers. They don't need a fifth one. No, like
they want you. You're different than them, and they value that.

Speaker 2 (01:29:02):
I think this kind of goes to speaking to just
like what's the evidence tell you? You know, because there's
a lot of It kind of reminds me of like
when somebody is talking about what something is worth. You know,
you may say like, oh, this is it's not worth that,
it's just not worth that much money, But the ultimate
worth of an object is what someone's willing to spend
on it, right, Right, And so I may feel that

(01:29:25):
this house is not worth whatever they've got it, you know,
on the.

Speaker 1 (01:29:30):
Market for it's about what my house is worth. But
it's my house, Like.

Speaker 2 (01:29:39):
If it sells at that amount, that's what it's worth, right,
you know worth. And so I think you kind of
have to look at, well, what's you know what, what's
the result? What are you getting as a result. The
result is that you currently have somebody who's been with
you for eighteen years now crab okay, So that speaks
volumes to the worth. So I think there's a lot

(01:30:01):
of evidence going in the other direction here too. I
think what happens is you get very insecure and you
stop looking at evidence and you start looking at your
feelings as being evidence.

Speaker 1 (01:30:12):
Yeah, your feelings aren't facts, right, But I think that
that's one of the things that's really fascinating about this,
Like the idea that Mike is going to choose. I mean,
I understand the fear that and I think that this
is a valid fear, like that Mike's wife could veto
Kate that's probably fair, right, Like that's probably part of
the agreements of Polly is like, Okay, if you and
your your married partner you have children with, decide you're

(01:30:33):
going to enter into a poly arrangement with others, you
probably have some fundamental rules, and one of those rules
could be us first, family first, and other relationships are
allowed to exist America or oh you know what, it
could be a poly relationship where they where they they
probably first, Okay, okay, yeah, Mappa, yeah, okay. It could

(01:30:55):
be red, white, and blue, a lot more white, a
lot more white, the red and the blue. No, but
this is a this is a really good point that like, yeah,
I mean, Mike's wife could veto Kate because it's like, hey,
I think that Kate is toxic to our relationship or
unsafe around our children, or is being unsafe in other areas,
and like I no longer feel that our relationship should
be bonded to Kate, And like that's fair, right, but

(01:31:17):
I don't think it's gonna be because, uh, you know,
Mike's wife says, we need you to date and be
with somebody just like me. Yeah. I could see Mike
being like, so what the fuck are we doing this for? Right?
I fucking clone you and go do like what I got.

Speaker 2 (01:31:29):
So it wasn't the point, Like the point wasn't boy,
I need more of you than those do fucking monogamy
the whole time. The point was, Yeah, if you always
are eating one thing that's your favorite meal, that's great.
But like it's also if you enjoy other things, and
we all agree that that's okay for me to do.
As long as they don't abandon, you know, this relationship,
then great. We found our entrance into bali, right, and
like that's what you are, Kate. You are different and

(01:31:52):
they value you because you are different. Yes, girl, get
some more rhino horn, Get a tar, get yourself a tarp,
gets yourself an it, go get you that, go get
the fucking hook. That's not the episode title.

Speaker 1 (01:32:04):
Oh oh yeah, oh absolutely, it's gonna be sex sex
crave pirate or something to that effect.

Speaker 5 (01:32:11):
Always have a tar.

Speaker 1 (01:32:12):
Yeah, we're gonna take quick break in the are wrapping
up the show. You are still, for whatever fucking reason,
listening about therapy.

Speaker 2 (01:32:22):
Today's episode is brought to you by Robert Brownie Junior Mets,
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(01:33:01):
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(01:33:25):
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Speaker 5 (01:33:27):
What's take of talk?

Speaker 1 (01:33:34):
Really really important stuff coming up. I'm about to do
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Speaker 2 (01:33:47):
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Speaker 1 (01:34:58):
That's all the time again for this week session. I
want to think our Landlords U s J in the
Ruckus scene it quite no, no.

Speaker 5 (01:35:04):
Sorry, it's oh yeah, what's our new names?

Speaker 1 (01:35:06):
Well, our landlords? Oh yeah, so what's ours?

Speaker 2 (01:35:09):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (01:35:10):
Therah? Oh no, scoop support, text Scoop Pards game there
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Speaker 5 (01:35:17):
This is my place now.

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Speaker 1 (01:35:27):
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Speaker 4 (01:35:42):
I'm neck Tangement, I'm Whitney, I'm Jim.

Speaker 1 (01:35:45):
Thanks for your appointment.

Speaker 5 (01:35:48):
Costume.

Speaker 1 (01:35:49):
He fuck yeah, sex starve pire.

Speaker 2 (01:35:52):
Okay, real quick, I brought some Halloween candy. Oh, I've
got a bone to pick with Snickers.

Speaker 1 (01:35:57):
All right, whoa, whoa, whoa. You can't say that, that's
their word. But no, open this up, all right. Tell
me if something looks off to you. These are fun
size Snickers. They seem smaller, thank you very much.

Speaker 3 (01:36:14):
These are sizes smaller than Yeah, but the size they
were thicker they were.

Speaker 1 (01:36:29):
Before. Yes, that was one.

Speaker 2 (01:36:31):
Okay, So I'm not crazy because I looked at this
as like this is some bullshit square yeah, because it
it definitely costs the same. Actually, I think it costs
a little bit more this year.

Speaker 1 (01:36:43):
Smaller. I think we wouldn't notice. Nice try who makes these?
So actually this was in the news, and so Mars
is making Eminem's now with anything but chocolate because there
was a bad cocoa bean harvest and so the price
of chocolate has skyrocketed. So that's why these are smaller

(01:37:04):
and and why a bunch of like they're trying out
all these new flavors of them. And here's the thing.

Speaker 2 (01:37:09):
Even when they get cocoa back, this not they're not
bringing it.

Speaker 1 (01:37:14):
Back and they're not. It's just like the airline bags.
Remember that ship. It was like gas prices are high,
so we're gonna charge for bags. We're all, okay, stop,
Like everything.

Speaker 3 (01:37:23):
With COVID, they're like, well we got to do this now,
like now we're never going to reopen.

Speaker 2 (01:37:28):
We finally just got back or got around to, uh,
you don't have to take your shoes off to get
on planes anymore.

Speaker 4 (01:37:32):
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:37:34):
A finally don't take your shoes off. Yeah, the man.

Speaker 2 (01:37:37):
Once the man went to take it away, he never
give it back. Fuck you, Snickers, goodbye Snickers.

Speaker 1 (01:37:46):
Get a tarp.

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