March 28, 2025 • 41 mins
On this episode, Alex Bozich is joined by Tony Adragna to discuss the first ten days of the Darian DeVries era in Bloomington.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome back to a new episode of Podcasts on the
Brink Friday, March twenty eight, ten days now into the
Darren Devrees era in Bloomington. Not a whole lot of
news in terms of roster editions out there yet, but
we're going to dig into some of the just the
(00:37):
topics that people are most interested in right now as
it pertains tou basketball with our guests today, Tony Dronia.
Before we get to Tony, I wanted to take a
moment and remind you that Podcasts on the Brink brought
to you by our good friends at Visit Bloomington. Visit
Bloomington as a proud partner of Podcasts on the Brink
and any university athletics. March Madness is officially kicked off.
(00:59):
In spring is about to begin. Catch the NCAA Men's
and women's tournaments while enjoying some award winning wings at Buffalois,
go paddleboarding on Lake Lemon, or experience one of the
mini spring festivals in Bloomington, like the Cosmic Songwriter Festival
and Grand Faaloon. Order your freeki visitor guide and plan
your Spring getaway at visit Bloomington dot com. Was actually
(01:24):
in Bloomington last week for the press conference. Quieter than
usual with spring break. I was alarming how little traffic
there is when the students are away for break. But
it's actually nice, and I know now why I chronic.
Kuser loves his his b town summers on Kirkwood, low
(01:45):
crowds and a chance to get out and enjoy the city.
But Tony, welcome back to podcast on the Brink. It's
been a while since we talked. Obviously a lot has
changed with the Indiana program. It was a longer than
usual coaching search, just based on the circumstances of everything
that went down. I think there was a time where
(02:09):
people started to get a little bit antsy in terms
of news, and obviously the search itself was kept pretty
buttoned up. Just what were your immediate reaction when Indiana
arrived where it did with coach Derees and that higher.
Obviously there were some twists and turns, different names that
were thrown about. But I think the one thing that
(02:31):
I keep coming back to is that really nobody knew
anything the whole time. I mean, obviously there was some speculation.
I know, there was agents and things getting information out
to certain people, and a lot of chatter in the background,
but Indiana ran a pretty buttoned up process. So I'm
just kind of curious how you received the news obviously
that there was a new coach and who they landed on.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, I think first of all, love love coming on
the podcast, appreciate you having me on again. Now it's
you know, the one thing that I I've talked to people
about is that it is very apparent that Scott Dolson
will run very buttoned up searches because you know, you
look at the football search with Sig as well, like
Sig wasn't really on the radar until the day that
(03:14):
he was hired or his at least announced hiring. Same
with Devrees, you know, really was kind of one of
those candidates that was seemingly in the background, like he
was on some hot boards and things, but never really
was the guy that people thought was going to take
over the Indiana program. So, you know, hats off to
Scott Dolson of really keeping these things buttoned up. And
(03:38):
you know that's hard to do. Uh, Like you said,
there's agents talking, there's people talking, there's seemingly a lot
of people involved in these types of hires, and to
keep everything so quiet essentially until they started leaking out
the night before. But you know, even then it was
like is this real or is it not? Because you
just didn't know what was real in this search. So
(04:01):
you know, I got to tip my cap to to
Scott Dolson and the seemingly very few people that were
actually involved in this thing and and really keeping keeping
things buttoned up, and to me as a coach, like
that gives you a lot of confidence in your bosses, right,
Like you know, you're trying to keep those things under
wraps as best you can, and by not getting those
(04:24):
things leaked out there like to me that that would
make me feel good as a coach coming into a
new situation about the administration and the people that I'll
be reporting to. So that was kind of my first
reaction to things was like, dang, another job well done
by Dolson and crew. And then it was really all right,
let me dive into Devrez a little bit more because
(04:45):
because he wasn't really on the radar a ton I
didn't I didn't really see him being the eye you coach,
not because he wasn't qualified, not because I didn't think
he was a good coach. It was more so you know,
there was a lot of other names that were kind
of floating out there that that I was diving into.
So my first reaction was like interesting, higher, you know,
let's let's dive into the nuts and bolts of it
(05:06):
and kind of figure out why. And so then I,
you know, I dove into things pretty deeply.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
You know.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
I released my video kind of on on Darren Devrees
and unfortunately I called him Darren DeVries in the video,
which to you know people, let me know, I missed,
to be.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Fair, I didn't know how to say it either. I
had to do some research as well.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Then it was announced when the how I did my
research was I went to his press conference of last
year when he was announced as West Virginia's coach, and
they announced him as Darren de Vriese. So that was
that was where I had my my Uh.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Maybe that's why I left after one year.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
But uh, you know, so I released that video and
and that really convinced me. Okay, here's here's the why
of what Scott Dolson saw. Obviously, he saw it at
a much grander level because he was, you know, had
a lot of people doing a lot of analysis for him.
But you know, I dove into probably seven eight hours
of clips on West Virginia, looking at numbers, things like that,
(06:06):
and then when Scott Dolson got up there and talked
later that day, he kind of reaffirmed some of those things,
you know, cutting edge offensively, team really plays hard. This
coach is just the ball coach like he you know,
he just wants to grind. You know, they call him grinder,
said of a different times. So to me, that was
kind of my like twenty four hour reaction period of
(06:27):
getting the news to like letting it soak in and
figuring out, you know, the x's and o's of this
and why Scott Dolson went this direction.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
So when you dug into the film and I've watched
your breakdown and for those who haven't seen it, I
think it's it's still pretty far up on your Twitter feed.
If you go, I think you have to search back
a little bit, but it's in there. What I mean,
you look at this stuff pretty regularly from a just
a film perspective, with what the stuff that you do
with IU film room. What stood out just in terms
(06:59):
of the stuff that he runs and what is maybe
gonna be a big departure from what we've seen from
Mike Woodson and Archie Miller.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Sure, yeah, I mean the biggest thing to me is
how he spaces the floor like that's that's been one
thing that's been lacking in the Indiana program to me
is opening the floor up a little bit, opening up
driving lanes, moving the ball side to side, you know
a lot of ball movement, making the defense move and
shift screens off the ball a lot. You know, that's
(07:30):
that's not a lot something that we saw a lot
with Archie and Mike Woodson. So to me, it's how
he spaces the floor, opens the floor up, gives his
people concepts. You know, they'll run sets and things like that,
but a lot of it is just conceptual motion offense,
teaching them, you know, where there's driving lanes, how to
open up gaps in space for guys, and really just
(07:52):
moving without the basketball and understanding how can I help
the guy with the basketball with my gravity on the floor. So,
to me, that'll be the biggest thing is you know
a lot of five out or even four out, you know,
four out, one in and using that big that's kind
of the one in still like screening away not near
the basket, you know, Indiana since Archie Miller has been
(08:16):
in the ninetieth percentile or higher in terms of the
percentage of post ups for eight straight years. Like it,
you know, it's it's been post up basketball. That is
not gonna be what we see with their in devrie Or.
I'd be shocked if that's what we see with Daron
Devreez West Virginia this past season. They're in the fifth
percentile and percentage of post ups. And so that is
going to be a start contrast for Indiana fans offensively,
(08:40):
because you know, for eight years, it's been kind of
inside of Juwan Morgan, kind of inside of Tracey Jackson
Davis getting inside the Koloa ware and Malik Renew and
Umar Balo, like you know, you go down the line,
and that's been the focal point of Indiana's offense. And
you know, I think as you watch these games in March,
you see that guards are typically gonna win you games
(09:01):
in March. In Indiana really hasn't had a team built
for that, and that's the proofs in the putting in
their results. So I think that is going to be
a stark contrast from what we've seen in almost the
last decade of Indiana basketball.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
I know we're very early in the process in terms
of the portal, and people are I don't want to
say impatient, but there's you know, I've heard from a
lot of fans like when her name is gonna start
popping up? But without that right now, we're kind of
left to speculate. But I'm curious, from watching the amount
of film that you have, what are the traits and
(09:35):
a big man that would that Derees would want to
bring into a program because we know it's not going
to be a guy that they're going to throw the
ball down into the post and like let him go
to work. Is that like the five guys you mentioned?
I mean, maybe not to the same extent Juwan Morgan
because he was able to step out a little bit.
But the other other names that you mentioned were all
really back to the basket players what And I think
(09:57):
there were some people who maybe thought, well, fresh start,
maybe Malik Renew comes back, or you would like to
have him back, And based on what you've described, it
doesn't make doesn't make a ton of sense for him
to come back based on this offense, because he's going
to be a guy obviously that needs the ball and
wants the ball on the post. And he's a great
talented post scorer, but maybe not the best fit for
(10:19):
this new system. But what what what is it that
he's going to be looking for based on what you've
seen from his team at West Virginia And I'm not
sure how much you went back and looked at Drake,
But what are the what are the key factors to
look for when they do add a big man.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah, it's gonna be somebody with versatility. You know, they
can they can move without the basketball, they can go
set screens, and they're a good solid screener. I mean
a lot of what he does on offense is predicated
on setting good screens. And so when I say that,
I mean both on the ball and off the ball.
You know, he's gonna run a lot of off ball
actions for for Tucker devrees, and so you've got to
(10:57):
be able to set good screens. But then you also
have to be able to operate eight and dribble handoffs.
You know, that's a big part of his offense is
getting that ball kind of in the high post, letting
that guy make decisions from there, that guy being the
big man, and so somebody with versatility there and then
can catch lobs on the offensive end, like you know,
he's gonna roll that guy to the rim a lot,
but he's also gonna slip them or he's going to
(11:22):
pop them and kind of create space that way as well.
So it's somebody with versatility. But as you mentioned with
Malik Renew, it's somebody that doesn't need the ball in
their hands or a high usage. It's somebody that kind
of understands their role in the team is, you know,
make shots around the rim when it's thrown to me
and create things for other people with your gravity on
(11:43):
the floor. So those are gonna be kind of the
traits he looks for offensively. Defensively, I think he's gonna
want somebody that can protect the rim. You know, he's
he's I know this is a cuss word for people,
but he does employ the pack line defense, and you know,
in the pack line, you're gonna want somebody that can
protect the the rim, somebody that's got good solid post defense,
(12:06):
because you're gonna double the post a lot in the
pack line, and then you're gonna have to sprint out
next out, so you're gonna need to be firstile on
that end as well. You know, last year at West
Virginia they didn't have a great big man presence. They
they lacked size, I thought in the Big twelve, especially,
but they still fought tremendously hard on the defensive end.
(12:27):
And you know, the big man's always your anchor of
your defense, right It's it's why you know, I know,
pack line kind of gets like to be the cuss
word with Indiana fans because Archie Miller employed it. But
like defense wasn't really Archie Miller's shortcoming, you know, that
was more so on the offensive end and getting guys
that were dynamic on the recruiting trail that could actually
(12:49):
win basketball games. So you know, Brad Stevens employed the
pack line defense. So it's it's not this horrible system.
And so I want people to be cognizant of that
as well when they hear about pack line defense and
not just freak out immediately that you know, I do
think going back to your your big man trait, though,
(13:10):
you're gonna want somebody that can guard multiple positions, perhaps
especially in the Big ten, Like you know, you're gonna
have to be a grinder a little bit, and you
got more of a big man play in the Big
Ten than you are maybe nationally. But you also don't
want to build your roster to win the Big Ten necessarily.
You want to build your roster to be able to
compete in March. And so you know, getting these big
(13:33):
plotting guys may not be the best recipe to win
the Big Ten each and every year, but it might
be your best recipe to make some noise at March.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah. The name that just kind of looking back at
the portal for last year, the name that kind of
popped in my head immediately when you you kind of
mentioned some of the things you just did, was Amari Williams,
who ended up in Kentucky. That that to be would
be more of the prototypical big man that the Reeves
would look for as opposed to an Umar Bam or
the leak Renew And that's nothing against those guys.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
It's just.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Well, I mean, Bala before he came to Indiana wasn't
necessarily your back to the basket player, but obviously in
terms of just his mobility wasn't the greatest. But you
watch a guy like Amari Williams, he can just do
so many things. His versatility with the ball. That's the
kind of player that I think basically fits the description
of what you're describing. I want to go back a
(14:26):
little bit into Devrees's history, and obviously some people looked
at his season last year at West Virginia and said, well,
he was nineteen and thirteen. He was the first team
out of the tournament. What's so impressive about this? He
was just one spot ahead of Indiana. But a thing
that a lot of people brought up was just how
he elevated the Drake program because it was really a
(14:49):
long time between their twenty one seasons, but you know,
looking back in their history and what he was able
to do just in terms of stacking those twenty one seasons,
How important is that? Do you think when evaluating a coach?
Just to go back and I know this is something
that Mike talked a lot about on the X's and
Joe's podcast, but just being able to elevate a program
(15:09):
to maybe a hype that it wasn't at before, How
how how how pivotal I guess is that when when
evaluating candidates.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
I think it's important, you know, it's it kind of
goes back to the Sigmold right, he showed that he
had could build a program and turning around in short
order as well. And to me, that's that's your role
as the head coach, right, You're the CEO, Like you're
making all of the things happen for your program to
take steps forward. And that's not just knowing x's and o's, like,
(15:40):
that's understanding relationships and how to raise money. You know,
especially at programs like Drake and stuff like that, to
elevate your facilities would help elevate you and recruiting and
all of those things goes into being a head coach.
And when you can do that at a program that
historically was not good and I think they had what
(16:02):
nine twenty win seasons in their history of their school,
and six of them were with Devrees or something along
those lines, hadn't made the NCAA attorney in several decades,
and then all of a sudden, he's got them in
the NCAA tournament regularly. Like those things are important, And
you know what, I kind of got frustrated by when
Devrees it is all of a sudden. Most people probably
(16:25):
didn't watch a lot of Drake and West Virginia that
are Indiana fans like that that makes a lot of sense.
You know, I don't either, And so what people immediately
go to is they look at Kein Pom and Bart
Torvik and go, well, you know, his offense has never
been top twenty offense, or you know his defense wasn't
great any given year or something like that. But those
(16:47):
need to be contextualized, especially when you're looking at a
mid major program like There's there's so much more that
goes into it than just adjusted offensive efficiency, you know,
just the defensi efficiency. Those are important numbers, absolutely, and
when you're at a Power five or Power four program,
those do mean a little bit more just based on
who your opponents are and things like that. But you
(17:10):
know what, I've noted this in my video, like Dan
Hurley didn't have a top fifty offense ever at Rhode Island.
Now he's seen as one of the best offensive mines
in the games, won back to back national championships. Like
those numbers just need contextualize a little bit. And so
that was kind of my biggest like kind of annoyance
(17:30):
with some fans when this hire was made, is they
immediately just jumped to, all right, here were three numbers
that weren't necessarily great on paper, but then when you
dive into it and you look at film and you're like,
my goodness, Like these guys are running awesome stuff. They're
getting wide up with shots, they're not hitting them. Like
sometimes your talent, you know, is what it is. And
Mike you mentioned he elevated even a West Virginia program
(17:53):
that the prior year was dead in the water, right
and immediately comes in, develops a staff, gets guys that
can fit together. Unfortunately, he loses two of his top
three scores and still it has a like I said,
a fourteenth RAE rated defense and should unless you know,
if their president was the head of the NCAA selection committee,
(18:15):
that probably in the NCAA tournament. And so you know
those things are are important. And so you know, I
had some predud fans jabbing me like I wouldn't you
You have the opportunity to fire a guy that didn't
make the tournament, to hire a guy that didn't make
the tournament. You got to make that higher. And you know,
it's like there's so much to be contextualized in that
higher And that's why I love diving into the film
side of things, because then you can kind of make
(18:37):
nuts and bolts of it and like, Okay, I understand why,
the why and the how kind of of what these
numbers are.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, you can go back and look at a lot
of different coaches that have kind of moved up at
level and probably look at their Ken Palm profile or
the numbers on bart Torpick and say, this wasn't all
that impressive. But it kind of goes into maybe the
next idea thing that I wanted to to talk to
you about is just there's not many proven coaches that
(19:05):
are gonna move jobs, and so you have to kind
of look under the radar. I'm not saying that Derees
was completely under the radar, but before he went to
West Virginia, he was obviously just a mid major coach
and looking at just raw numbers of offensive and defensive
efficiency without any context. As you mentioned, it doesn't really
(19:25):
tell the whole story because when you're out of Drake,
you're ceiling for how high you can likely even get
in those computer numbers. It's pretty limited because of the
schedule that you're playing, unless you go out in the
non conference and are just ultra aggressive and say you
play eight or nine games against top fifty teams, which
would be pretty stupid to do because if you especially
if you're trying to make the tournament, you only have
(19:47):
a probably you know, you could maybe get the top forty,
top thirty. I think some of Dusty May's later teams
at Ford Atlantic and they may have scheduled more agressively.
I haven't looked at it closely, but they made their
way up. But obviously the one year he made a
final four, in the following year they were really a
ranked team all season. And so this idea that you
(20:09):
have to hire a proven coach, I think Dan Hurley
is a great example of this. No one was knocking
down doors to hire Dan Hurley based on what he
did at Rhode Island. He started out there really slowly
and he gradually built over time. And another example of
this based in this year's tournament, Grant McCaslin. I mean,
he was at North Texas and I don't think before
(20:32):
Texas Tech hired him he would have even been a
name that people looked at for moving up a level.
And he's proven himself to be successful. So the everyone
I think gravitates towards the idea of a t J Olzelberger,
or they gravitate towards the Brad Stevens or the Scott Drew,
the Tommy all these names that are but look at
(20:55):
where most of them came from. They were in the
kind of the same position that Darren rees is coming
to Indiana. They had relatively little to no experience at
the high major level, and they went into a program
that committed to them, gave them the opportunity to move up,
and eventually, if you're a good enough coach, you elevate
the program with you.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah. And I want to caveat this by saying, like,
I understand where a lot of Indiana fans are coming.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
I get I get it too. Yeah, it's fun to
dream about the home run higher, but realistically, how often
does that happen? I mean, look at last year with
Pat Kelsey and Mark Pope were I mean, those guys
had to combine zero n CAA tournament wins when they
were hired. That's unthinkable for programs like that to hire
coaches like that.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yeah, that's what's funny too, is I gotten a little
bit of a back and forth, which I should honestly
do less of on Twitter, But sometimes I can't help
myself with somebody that was like I kind of mentioned
the Hurley mold and because they were mad that we
hired Devrees. When I say we, I mean Indiana, and
I was like, okay, well, you know he was like
(22:04):
Dan Hurley had a much better winning percentage than Devrez
did before he got the Yukon job. It's like, that's
absolutely false. Verrez has a over a seventy percent win percentage.
Hurley had fifty seven percent prior to going to Yukon.
And I'm not saying Devrez is going to be Dan Hurley,
but that's part of Scott Dolson's job, right, is projecting
where can this guy take the program? How has he
(22:26):
done things elsewhere? You know, what makes him special? Does
he need something to make him special? Maybe you don't,
Like maybe at Indiana, all you need is just somebody
that coaches basketball, can get along with the donors, understands
how to use the fan base to your advantage, and
you don't have to be special. Like there is that
possibility as well. You know, there's there's been guys that
(22:47):
have gone far that aren't these crazy you know, personalities
or great just the best x's and those guys, but
they understand just how to elevate people, and they're good leaders.
And you know, for me, my biggest thing here with
Darren Devreez is everything I've heard about him is the
dude loves basketball. He's going to go out and grind
on the recruiting trail. He's going to understand what it
(23:10):
takes to make Indiana tick. I mean, a lot of
people have talked to that have had meetings with him
already are important people in the state, and like it
or not, like you got to get along with those people,
and you got to be able to talk to the
top donors, and you got to be able to talk
to the common fan. Not that the fans are this
end all be all and you have to be best
(23:32):
friends with all of them, but as he noted in
his press conference, like having a passionate fan base can
certainly be used to your advantage. And just understanding that
from the outset to me is why I'm confident this
is a good hire. And then also having a guy
that was at a great job in West Virginia, like
West Virginia is a really good job. They've got great support,
(23:55):
They're like the professional team of the state. Everybody rallies
around them. That's a good job job, and the fact
he was willing to leave that after one year to
go take the Indiana job because he thinks he can
do great things with Indiana. To me, you've got to
have a little bit of like, for lack of a
better terms, dog in you like to leave a good
job after one year to go take a better one,
(24:17):
And to me, like that mentality in that mindset is
why I think this is not an Archie Miller higher
Like I don't think Archie Miller really ever wanted the
Indiana job, but he just thought how could you say
no to Indiana? Whereas Darren Devrees, I think this is
something like, Hey, I want this. I think I can
go do big things here at Indiana, and I'm going
to leave this great job and these great people to
(24:39):
go elevate a program that has a lot of history
and I think I can get it back to that.
So that's what gives me a lot of confidence here
in this higher.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yeah, I mean, everyone talks about Indiana being a fish
bowl and the fans and the negativity, but if you
don't have the passion from the fan base, what do
you really have as a program you have really nothing.
I mean, that's what's really kept Indiana basketball relative are
relevant all these years is they've not won, but the
(25:10):
fans continue to show up and support the program and
all this. You know, we talk about this every coaching
hire Indiana. I wouldn't call it a sleeping giant because
obviously there's there's a lot of support anyway, But imagine
what it would look like if you are the person
that comes back to Indiana or comes to Indiana and
(25:30):
gets it back to contending regularly in the Big Ten.
And I don't even want to hear about national championship
stuff because to me, like the number one thing for
Indiana is just try to get in the you know,
top three or four in the Big ten regularly and
then worry about the other stuff. I mean, that was
one of the things that Mike Woodson talked about from
the beginning. It drove me nuts. It's like, did you
(25:50):
not see the standings the last four years? Shouldn't even
be talking about national championships. Just get back in the
hunt in the Big ten. But I agree with you
the idea that he is embracing the challenge and going
back to Archie looking back on it, he never really
seemed comfortable with the idea of like being the India coach.
He just wanted to coach the team. There's a lot
(26:12):
of other things that go into it. That's the one
thing we'll see with Debes how when time progress, as
time goes along here, how he embraces the other responsibilities
of being the coach. I mean, he obviously handled the
press conference really well. He didn't. It wasn't any like
crazy charisma that he's shown or anything like that. But
he obviously met every question had on But the things
(26:34):
that he said just in terms about his process and
how he wants to build a program, build a culture,
these are not really things that we definitely didn't hear
from Mike Woodson, and we may have heard them early
on from Archie Miller, but then we just heard less
and less from him over time. So I think from
a communications standpoint, he's off to a much better start
as well.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Totally agree. And you know, I got some people that
are like he seemed pretty dry, you know, is that
the personality that can win at Indiana? And yes, absolutely,
you know, And what I'd think too, is like he
was dry in his prepared statement, like he obviously wasn't
very comfortable in giving that as soon as the questions
came and he was talking off the cuff just about
(27:15):
basketball and how he wants to lead a program, and
that weren't things that were prepared like those were. To me,
that was his better side of the press conference when
he didn't have to, you know, thank all the right
people and just try to say all the right things
to get people going. It was when he got the
questions from you guys in the media and he could
just talk shop and how he wants to build a
program and how he's gonna run his offense and his defense,
(27:36):
and like, to me, that was that's like the charisma
side of it and how you can sell, cause that's
when you're in the room with parents and kids and
agents and all those things, Like how do you sell
your vision in your team to get them to buy
in what you're doing to what you're doing. And he
did that extremely well at the press conference, Like here's
what I'm going to do. He laid out a very clear,
(27:56):
coherent plan and then you know, when he's in that
room with the kids, he's going to obviously do that
at a deeper level, and like that's what people want.
They want to see your vision and then you get
them to buy into that vision. And I think he's
going to have that. It reminds me a lot of
sig mean kind of how he talks about building culture,
staying process oriented, not worrying about the results, you know,
(28:19):
being very cognizant of culture, and not letting the wrong
people in, you know, to me, that's the like people
have been. Like, Indiana does not attached to anybody in
the portal, and it's like, well, if you want desperation
and to just continually just have your name attached to
every guy in the portal, then like, let's go flashback
to last year, because the last couple of years, like
that's that's not necessarily what you want. You know. He
(28:42):
talked about I'm going to build a team where the
pieces fit together, whereas under Mike Woodson it was accumulating
talent and then let's figure it out. And as we
could have seen the last couple of years in Indiana,
they couldn't really ever mesh and figure it out because
the pieces just didn't fit. And so the fact that
Indiana's not attached to every guy in the portal and
they're being very kind of cognizant of here's the pieces
(29:07):
we want, and we're not going to deviate from that
process in that plan, and the fact that all the
best players are still playing as well, so it's like,
you know, everybody available right now are all the guys
that lost, Not that you can't get guys that have
lost or mid major guys or whatever. But I do
think that there's a very clear plan and it's very
(29:27):
similar to what kind of Sig did with the football
program of like we're not going to sacrifice things in
year one to kind of go away from our standards,
like we're gonna have these standards and if if we
don't win a national championship in year one, but it's
giving us a solid foundation to build upon, Like that's
what you want as a program. And so that's what
(29:49):
I'm kind of excited to see, is like what's this
foundation gonna be and and how are they going to
build it and how are these pieces going to fit together?
And then what I'm also excited about is it seems
is they're going to go do a euro trip this summer,
so we'll kind of get a glimpse of what those
pieces look like a little bit earlier than some previous seasons.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
I hope we can get some television coverage for that
if it does happen, because I know the last couple
of times I know when Kentucky takes these trips, it's
like a big deal, Like the SEC networks, they're covering
the games, which is I think a great way to
showcase your program. And I know the Montreal trip because
I went on that trip back in twenty fourteen. It
was I went to it was five exhibition games. We
(30:33):
were allowed to show two minutes of video from all
the games and it's like, what are we hiding here
in August? And I know the last time they went
it was I think twenty twenty one the Bahamas. It
was the same thing because I had I got somebody
down there to take videos, like we can show two minutes.
I'm like, this is these are exhibition games. Like do
everything you can to promote your program and try to
get as much out there. I mean, it's a way
(30:54):
to build excitement for the program. So I hope that's
something that changes for that. I want to go back
to the portal though for one second, it last year.
I think a lot of us, myself included other people
in the media, got caught up in the portal rankings
where guys were ranked. You know, Miles Rice was the whatever,
top five point guard in the portal. Canaan Carlisle was
a top fifty player in the portal. Umar Bolla was
(31:17):
the center everybody wanted, and we talked a lot of
us tucked ourselves into just grabbing all these players are talented,
figuring out later. But Indian is gonna have talent. So
we heard all season right, Indiana's got talent. They can
make a run. But the pieces didn't necessarily fit together.
So you mentioned kind of the lack of information right
(31:37):
now in terms of being connected to Portal guys, and
I think some of that is the fact that there's
not a full staff in place yet, and also that
this for those that don't follow me on social media.
I put out a timeline yesterday that I talked to
my friend Dylan Burkehart of um Hoops of Dusty May
was hired kind of a similar timeframe last spring, and
(32:00):
when they started getting commitments wasn't until the back half
of April. So even though it may feel like things
are a little behind schedule or moving slowly. It's really
still early. I mean, it's what they five of the portal,
and it's a thirty day window, and guys don't have
to be committed by the time the portal closes. They
just have to be in the portal. And I think
(32:22):
you made a great point. The guys that are in
the portal right now unless you've left a team that's
still playing, which I think there's a couple. Yeah, right,
there's a couple examples of that. But sure, there's gonna
be great players out there, but there's probably a couple
of players maybe that are still playing right now, that
Indiana wants to get for next season that are going
(32:42):
to go in the portal. What do you think, just
from a fan perspective, when you when you follow this
whole process, what are you going to be looking for
just in terms of fit and style of play when
you evaluate these portal guys.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yeah, I think it's going to be huge and it'll
be fun to see kind of you know. Obviously Derees
has been a little bit hamstrung everywhere he's been thus far,
Like at Drake obviously you're not going to get five star,
four star talent. Then at West Virginia last year. You know,
you're building a new roster. You know, it's not like
it's they have good in al, but it's not like
(33:18):
you have great in il. So to me, it'll be
really interesting to see, like this would be the first
time Derese to probably go out and build a roster
very cool. I don't want to say the perfect roster
for what he wants, but pretty close to like his
ideal scenario of how you build a team, And so
to me, it'll kind of be really interesting to see
(33:39):
what that means and how and how that projects moving
forward for his tenure. Now, it's going to be a
little bit more difficult because he's trying to get twelve
thirteen guys rostered right. So it may not be his
perfect ideal team in year one, but I think he's
going to be able to get the prototypes he won
at each position, Like point guard. I'm guessing he's gonna
(34:00):
want somebody like the Javon Small was at West Virginia.
You know, somebody that can play two ways, very dynamic
with the basketball in their hands, makes great decisions, can
put the ball in the bucket, and then it's kind
of the head of the snake of the defense, applies
great ball pressure and just takes the offense out of
what they want to do. So point guard wise, that's
what I'm guessing he's gonna try to go get, especially
(34:21):
since he has some much success with small then he's
gonna want dynamic wings. You know, guys that can play
multiple positions, probably two through four can guard multiple positions
and put the ball in the bucket, right, you know, duh,
But it's it sounds like common sense, but that's that's
likely what he's want to go want to go get.
(34:41):
His son's gonna be more of that stretch for Mold,
so he might go get try to get somebody that's
more dynamic at the four that he can plug in
off the bench. You know, somebody kind of like a
Caleb Bakes prototype, you know, long, athletic, like I said,
it can guard multiple positions and things like that. And
(35:03):
then we talked about the big man, you know, kind
of having some length and athleticism to him. But maybe
off the bench, he'll try to get somebody that's a
little bit more like your typical five of just kind
of big, strong to play in the post, because you
know you're gonna be grinding through the Big ten against
a lot of really good post players, and you might
(35:23):
want to go get somebody off the bench that can
kind of compliment what your other big is doing. So
to me, it'll be really fascinating to see what he
goes and gets. And then I think what you're gonna
see more than anything is he's not going to sacrifice
the team to go get a five star talent or
something like that. Like his teams play extremely hard, like
(35:44):
they just do. I went and watched a lot of
West Virginia film, like didn't have a ton of talent,
especially as the year wore down and they lost guys
the injury, but they just played so hard. His Drake
team played extremely hard, So he's gonna go get guys
I think that are going to give it everything they've
got on the floor when they're out there. They're guys
(36:04):
that aren't afraid to kind of sink their teeth in
on the defensive end and get stops and things like that.
So to me, it'll be really interesting to see kind
of like the prototypes at each position that he's targeting,
because I do think it's going to be pretty dissimilar
to what we've seen in Indiana for quite some time.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yeah, the other thing I'm potentially excited to see is
there maybe a couple of freshmen that you could go
out and get to kind of because you're you're filling
so many spots. I don't know that you want to
go completely with all. I mean, let's say right now
the reezes on the roster. Who knows what happens with
Luke Goodie, but Trent Sisley, so there's one freshman. But
(36:47):
if you're gonna fill and again people are well, there's
fifteen spots, I don't know that you're going to fill
that many spots. I mean, that's a good way to
not have a great locker room if you're going to
bring in fifteen scholarship players. I don't necessarily I think
that's the way to do it, although it maybe you
bring in a couple of freshmen that are long, longer
(37:08):
term development guys. Again, you got to get the right
player with the right mindset, because the problem there is
you bring a guy in don't play very much and
then they just hit the portal, so it's like a
wasted year. But I think one thing you can learn
from Matt Painter and his program at Purdue. He's been
able to sell that vision on a longer term timeline
(37:28):
for a lot of these guys, and it works right
because you bring a guy in and you develop them
over course of a couple of years, and all of
a sudden, like a Trey Kaufman Wrin, most programs would
have lost him after a year or two because he's
red shirting, he's not playing, and all of a sudden, he's,
you know, still alive in the NCAA tournament and scoring
(37:48):
what fifteen seventeen eighteen points a game regularly. So that
would be another thing that's kind of interesting to me,
because I don't think you want to get yourself in
a situation where you have just all portal guys that
are gonna be but you know a lot of them
will be seniors, and you want to have some guys
at least you can build some continuity year over year.
That was one thing that stood out from what he
(38:09):
said in the program in the press conference, is just
basically trying to make the experience so that you're not
losing a ton of guys every year, because I don't
think any coach wants to go through what this will
be the second straight year for him of building from
the ground up. I don't think that's a sustainable system
for the long term.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Yeah, I don't. It's just it's hard. It makes your
life extremely hard, especially when you're in the spring, like
that's a big time for development, but when you're having
to focus all of your energy on building a roster
each year, you kind of lose out on that. And
then like for him, it's really weird, like they're not
running spring workouts right now because they don't have a team,
(38:51):
and it's not like those guys can just show up
in March like they're at their previous universities until summer hits.
So you know, he got nothing more to do right
now than obviously dive into the portal and getting his
staff aligned and things like that. But it's just such
a different time where you don't have a literally a
(39:11):
single guy possibly returning, and so like you don't have
any anybody to work out, like you know, I mean
his son, that's it, right, Yeah, And I've heard that
like the guys that are in the portal are still
allowed to use the facilities and things like that to
work out themselves and things like that. But yeah, just
(39:32):
a very weird, Like I can't imagine any coach ever
thought they would ever have to do that once even
a decade ago, and now that you know, now he's
on a second straight year of having to do something
similar to this, and so very interesting. I don't know
that it's it's it's great for college basketball that so
many teams are turning over their entire rosters year in
(39:54):
and year out. But I do think as Indiana fans,
it's kind of a nice cleanse, a bit of just
like putting the past in the past and kind of
a renewed future of just all new you know, seemingly
all new staff, seemingly all new players, like everything's different,
and I think just a program reset is probably healthy
(40:17):
for everybody involved. And so I think it just there
should be a lot of like optimism around the program
right now. I think with just everything kind of being
fresh and new, you know, you're not thinking like how
well this guy worked out, like he wasn't very good
last year and things like that. It's like, nope, all new,
everything's looking forward to the future. I don't think that's
(40:37):
necessarily a bad thing for where Indian is at right now.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Yep, Well, Tony, thanks for carving out the time for
us on this Friday morning. Always good to uh talk
to you. As I said earlier in the show, everyone
that hasn't watched your video breakdown on Darren Devrees over
on is the best place to do that.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
You can do it X or you. It's on YouTube
as well if you just type in Darren Devrees it's
on there as well.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Okay, make sure to check that out if you haven't.
Tony again, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks everybody
as always for listening to Podcasts on the Brink. If
you enjoy the show, please leave us a rating and
review over on Apple Podcasts, leave us a five star
rating on Spotify, and we'll be back soon with another
episode of podcast on the Brink.
Welcome back to a new episode of Podcasts on the
Brink Friday, March twenty eight, ten days now into the
Darren Devrees era in Bloomington. Not a whole lot of
news in terms of roster editions out there yet, but
we're going to dig into some of the just the
(00:37):
topics that people are most interested in right now as
it pertains tou basketball with our guests today, Tony Dronia.
Before we get to Tony, I wanted to take a
moment and remind you that Podcasts on the Brink brought
to you by our good friends at Visit Bloomington. Visit
Bloomington as a proud partner of Podcasts on the Brink
and any university athletics. March Madness is officially kicked off.
(00:59):
In spring is about to begin. Catch the NCAA Men's
and women's tournaments while enjoying some award winning wings at Buffalois,
go paddleboarding on Lake Lemon, or experience one of the
mini spring festivals in Bloomington, like the Cosmic Songwriter Festival
and Grand Faaloon. Order your freeki visitor guide and plan
your Spring getaway at visit Bloomington dot com. Was actually
(01:24):
in Bloomington last week for the press conference. Quieter than
usual with spring break. I was alarming how little traffic
there is when the students are away for break. But
it's actually nice, and I know now why I chronic.
Kuser loves his his b town summers on Kirkwood, low
(01:45):
crowds and a chance to get out and enjoy the city.
But Tony, welcome back to podcast on the Brink. It's
been a while since we talked. Obviously a lot has
changed with the Indiana program. It was a longer than
usual coaching search, just based on the circumstances of everything
that went down. I think there was a time where
(02:09):
people started to get a little bit antsy in terms
of news, and obviously the search itself was kept pretty
buttoned up. Just what were your immediate reaction when Indiana
arrived where it did with coach Derees and that higher.
Obviously there were some twists and turns, different names that
were thrown about. But I think the one thing that
(02:31):
I keep coming back to is that really nobody knew
anything the whole time. I mean, obviously there was some speculation.
I know, there was agents and things getting information out
to certain people, and a lot of chatter in the background,
but Indiana ran a pretty buttoned up process. So I'm
just kind of curious how you received the news obviously
that there was a new coach and who they landed on.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yeah, I think first of all, love love coming on
the podcast, appreciate you having me on again. Now it's
you know, the one thing that I I've talked to people
about is that it is very apparent that Scott Dolson
will run very buttoned up searches because you know, you
look at the football search with Sig as well, like
Sig wasn't really on the radar until the day that
(03:14):
he was hired or his at least announced hiring. Same
with Devrees, you know, really was kind of one of
those candidates that was seemingly in the background, like he
was on some hot boards and things, but never really
was the guy that people thought was going to take
over the Indiana program. So, you know, hats off to
Scott Dolson of really keeping these things buttoned up. And
(03:38):
you know that's hard to do. Uh, Like you said,
there's agents talking, there's people talking, there's seemingly a lot
of people involved in these types of hires, and to
keep everything so quiet essentially until they started leaking out
the night before. But you know, even then it was
like is this real or is it not? Because you
just didn't know what was real in this search. So
(04:01):
you know, I got to tip my cap to to
Scott Dolson and the seemingly very few people that were
actually involved in this thing and and really keeping keeping
things buttoned up, and to me as a coach, like
that gives you a lot of confidence in your bosses, right,
Like you know, you're trying to keep those things under
wraps as best you can, and by not getting those
(04:24):
things leaked out there like to me that that would
make me feel good as a coach coming into a
new situation about the administration and the people that I'll
be reporting to. So that was kind of my first
reaction to things was like, dang, another job well done
by Dolson and crew. And then it was really all right,
let me dive into Devrez a little bit more because
(04:45):
because he wasn't really on the radar a ton I
didn't I didn't really see him being the eye you coach,
not because he wasn't qualified, not because I didn't think
he was a good coach. It was more so you know,
there was a lot of other names that were kind
of floating out there that that I was diving into.
So my first reaction was like interesting, higher, you know,
let's let's dive into the nuts and bolts of it
(05:06):
and kind of figure out why. And so then I,
you know, I dove into things pretty deeply.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
You know.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
I released my video kind of on on Darren Devrees
and unfortunately I called him Darren DeVries in the video,
which to you know people, let me know, I missed,
to be.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Fair, I didn't know how to say it either. I
had to do some research as well.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Then it was announced when the how I did my
research was I went to his press conference of last
year when he was announced as West Virginia's coach, and
they announced him as Darren de Vriese. So that was
that was where I had my my Uh.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Maybe that's why I left after one year.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
But uh, you know, so I released that video and
and that really convinced me. Okay, here's here's the why
of what Scott Dolson saw. Obviously, he saw it at
a much grander level because he was, you know, had
a lot of people doing a lot of analysis for him.
But you know, I dove into probably seven eight hours
of clips on West Virginia, looking at numbers, things like that,
(06:06):
and then when Scott Dolson got up there and talked
later that day, he kind of reaffirmed some of those things,
you know, cutting edge offensively, team really plays hard. This
coach is just the ball coach like he you know,
he just wants to grind. You know, they call him grinder,
said of a different times. So to me, that was
kind of my like twenty four hour reaction period of
(06:27):
getting the news to like letting it soak in and
figuring out, you know, the x's and o's of this
and why Scott Dolson went this direction.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
So when you dug into the film and I've watched
your breakdown and for those who haven't seen it, I
think it's it's still pretty far up on your Twitter feed.
If you go, I think you have to search back
a little bit, but it's in there. What I mean,
you look at this stuff pretty regularly from a just
a film perspective, with what the stuff that you do
with IU film room. What stood out just in terms
(06:59):
of the stuff that he runs and what is maybe
gonna be a big departure from what we've seen from
Mike Woodson and Archie Miller.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Sure, yeah, I mean the biggest thing to me is
how he spaces the floor like that's that's been one
thing that's been lacking in the Indiana program to me
is opening the floor up a little bit, opening up
driving lanes, moving the ball side to side, you know
a lot of ball movement, making the defense move and
shift screens off the ball a lot. You know, that's
(07:30):
that's not a lot something that we saw a lot
with Archie and Mike Woodson. So to me, it's how
he spaces the floor, opens the floor up, gives his
people concepts. You know, they'll run sets and things like that,
but a lot of it is just conceptual motion offense,
teaching them, you know, where there's driving lanes, how to
open up gaps in space for guys, and really just
(07:52):
moving without the basketball and understanding how can I help
the guy with the basketball with my gravity on the floor. So,
to me, that'll be the biggest thing is you know
a lot of five out or even four out, you know,
four out, one in and using that big that's kind
of the one in still like screening away not near
the basket, you know, Indiana since Archie Miller has been
(08:16):
in the ninetieth percentile or higher in terms of the
percentage of post ups for eight straight years. Like it,
you know, it's it's been post up basketball. That is
not gonna be what we see with their in devrie Or.
I'd be shocked if that's what we see with Daron
Devreez West Virginia this past season. They're in the fifth
percentile and percentage of post ups. And so that is
going to be a start contrast for Indiana fans offensively,
(08:40):
because you know, for eight years, it's been kind of
inside of Juwan Morgan, kind of inside of Tracey Jackson
Davis getting inside the Koloa ware and Malik Renew and
Umar Balo, like you know, you go down the line,
and that's been the focal point of Indiana's offense. And
you know, I think as you watch these games in March,
you see that guards are typically gonna win you games
(09:01):
in March. In Indiana really hasn't had a team built
for that, and that's the proofs in the putting in
their results. So I think that is going to be
a stark contrast from what we've seen in almost the
last decade of Indiana basketball.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
I know we're very early in the process in terms
of the portal, and people are I don't want to
say impatient, but there's you know, I've heard from a
lot of fans like when her name is gonna start
popping up? But without that right now, we're kind of
left to speculate. But I'm curious, from watching the amount
of film that you have, what are the traits and
(09:35):
a big man that would that Derees would want to
bring into a program because we know it's not going
to be a guy that they're going to throw the
ball down into the post and like let him go
to work. Is that like the five guys you mentioned?
I mean, maybe not to the same extent Juwan Morgan
because he was able to step out a little bit.
But the other other names that you mentioned were all
really back to the basket players what And I think
(09:57):
there were some people who maybe thought, well, fresh start,
maybe Malik Renew comes back, or you would like to
have him back, And based on what you've described, it
doesn't make doesn't make a ton of sense for him
to come back based on this offense, because he's going
to be a guy obviously that needs the ball and
wants the ball on the post. And he's a great
talented post scorer, but maybe not the best fit for
(10:19):
this new system. But what what what is it that
he's going to be looking for based on what you've
seen from his team at West Virginia And I'm not
sure how much you went back and looked at Drake,
But what are the what are the key factors to
look for when they do add a big man.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah, it's gonna be somebody with versatility. You know, they
can they can move without the basketball, they can go
set screens, and they're a good solid screener. I mean
a lot of what he does on offense is predicated
on setting good screens. And so when I say that,
I mean both on the ball and off the ball.
You know, he's gonna run a lot of off ball
actions for for Tucker devrees, and so you've got to
(10:57):
be able to set good screens. But then you also
have to be able to operate eight and dribble handoffs.
You know, that's a big part of his offense is
getting that ball kind of in the high post, letting
that guy make decisions from there, that guy being the
big man, and so somebody with versatility there and then
can catch lobs on the offensive end, like you know,
he's gonna roll that guy to the rim a lot,
but he's also gonna slip them or he's going to
(11:22):
pop them and kind of create space that way as well.
So it's somebody with versatility. But as you mentioned with
Malik Renew, it's somebody that doesn't need the ball in
their hands or a high usage. It's somebody that kind
of understands their role in the team is, you know,
make shots around the rim when it's thrown to me
and create things for other people with your gravity on
(11:43):
the floor. So those are gonna be kind of the
traits he looks for offensively. Defensively, I think he's gonna
want somebody that can protect the rim. You know, he's
he's I know this is a cuss word for people,
but he does employ the pack line defense, and you know,
in the pack line, you're gonna want somebody that can
protect the the rim, somebody that's got good solid post defense,
(12:06):
because you're gonna double the post a lot in the
pack line, and then you're gonna have to sprint out
next out, so you're gonna need to be firstile on
that end as well. You know, last year at West
Virginia they didn't have a great big man presence. They
they lacked size, I thought in the Big twelve, especially,
but they still fought tremendously hard on the defensive end.
(12:27):
And you know, the big man's always your anchor of
your defense, right It's it's why you know, I know,
pack line kind of gets like to be the cuss
word with Indiana fans because Archie Miller employed it. But
like defense wasn't really Archie Miller's shortcoming, you know, that
was more so on the offensive end and getting guys
that were dynamic on the recruiting trail that could actually
(12:49):
win basketball games. So you know, Brad Stevens employed the
pack line defense. So it's it's not this horrible system.
And so I want people to be cognizant of that
as well when they hear about pack line defense and
not just freak out immediately that you know, I do
think going back to your your big man trait, though,
(13:10):
you're gonna want somebody that can guard multiple positions, perhaps
especially in the Big ten, Like you know, you're gonna
have to be a grinder a little bit, and you
got more of a big man play in the Big
Ten than you are maybe nationally. But you also don't
want to build your roster to win the Big Ten necessarily.
You want to build your roster to be able to
compete in March. And so you know, getting these big
(13:33):
plotting guys may not be the best recipe to win
the Big Ten each and every year, but it might
be your best recipe to make some noise at March.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah. The name that just kind of looking back at
the portal for last year, the name that kind of
popped in my head immediately when you you kind of
mentioned some of the things you just did, was Amari Williams,
who ended up in Kentucky. That that to be would
be more of the prototypical big man that the Reeves
would look for as opposed to an Umar Bam or
the leak Renew And that's nothing against those guys.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
It's just.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Well, I mean, Bala before he came to Indiana wasn't
necessarily your back to the basket player, but obviously in
terms of just his mobility wasn't the greatest. But you
watch a guy like Amari Williams, he can just do
so many things. His versatility with the ball. That's the
kind of player that I think basically fits the description
of what you're describing. I want to go back a
(14:26):
little bit into Devrees's history, and obviously some people looked
at his season last year at West Virginia and said, well,
he was nineteen and thirteen. He was the first team
out of the tournament. What's so impressive about this? He
was just one spot ahead of Indiana. But a thing
that a lot of people brought up was just how
he elevated the Drake program because it was really a
(14:49):
long time between their twenty one seasons, but you know,
looking back in their history and what he was able
to do just in terms of stacking those twenty one seasons,
How important is that? Do you think when evaluating a coach?
Just to go back and I know this is something
that Mike talked a lot about on the X's and
Joe's podcast, but just being able to elevate a program
(15:09):
to maybe a hype that it wasn't at before, How
how how how pivotal I guess is that when when
evaluating candidates.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
I think it's important, you know, it's it kind of
goes back to the Sigmold right, he showed that he
had could build a program and turning around in short
order as well. And to me, that's that's your role
as the head coach, right, You're the CEO, Like you're
making all of the things happen for your program to
take steps forward. And that's not just knowing x's and o's, like,
(15:40):
that's understanding relationships and how to raise money. You know,
especially at programs like Drake and stuff like that, to
elevate your facilities would help elevate you and recruiting and
all of those things goes into being a head coach.
And when you can do that at a program that
historically was not good and I think they had what
(16:02):
nine twenty win seasons in their history of their school,
and six of them were with Devrees or something along
those lines, hadn't made the NCAA attorney in several decades,
and then all of a sudden, he's got them in
the NCAA tournament regularly. Like those things are important, And
you know what, I kind of got frustrated by when
Devrees it is all of a sudden. Most people probably
(16:25):
didn't watch a lot of Drake and West Virginia that
are Indiana fans like that that makes a lot of sense.
You know, I don't either, And so what people immediately
go to is they look at Kein Pom and Bart
Torvik and go, well, you know, his offense has never
been top twenty offense, or you know his defense wasn't
great any given year or something like that. But those
(16:47):
need to be contextualized, especially when you're looking at a
mid major program like There's there's so much more that
goes into it than just adjusted offensive efficiency, you know,
just the defensi efficiency. Those are important numbers, absolutely, and
when you're at a Power five or Power four program,
those do mean a little bit more just based on
who your opponents are and things like that. But you
(17:10):
know what, I've noted this in my video, like Dan
Hurley didn't have a top fifty offense ever at Rhode Island.
Now he's seen as one of the best offensive mines
in the games, won back to back national championships. Like
those numbers just need contextualize a little bit. And so
that was kind of my biggest like kind of annoyance
(17:30):
with some fans when this hire was made, is they
immediately just jumped to, all right, here were three numbers
that weren't necessarily great on paper, but then when you
dive into it and you look at film and you're like,
my goodness, Like these guys are running awesome stuff. They're
getting wide up with shots, they're not hitting them. Like
sometimes your talent, you know, is what it is. And
Mike you mentioned he elevated even a West Virginia program
(17:53):
that the prior year was dead in the water, right
and immediately comes in, develops a staff, gets guys that
can fit together. Unfortunately, he loses two of his top
three scores and still it has a like I said,
a fourteenth RAE rated defense and should unless you know,
if their president was the head of the NCAA selection committee,
(18:15):
that probably in the NCAA tournament. And so you know
those things are are important. And so you know, I
had some predud fans jabbing me like I wouldn't you
You have the opportunity to fire a guy that didn't
make the tournament, to hire a guy that didn't make
the tournament. You got to make that higher. And you know,
it's like there's so much to be contextualized in that
higher And that's why I love diving into the film
side of things, because then you can kind of make
(18:37):
nuts and bolts of it and like, Okay, I understand why,
the why and the how kind of of what these
numbers are.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, you can go back and look at a lot
of different coaches that have kind of moved up at
level and probably look at their Ken Palm profile or
the numbers on bart Torpick and say, this wasn't all
that impressive. But it kind of goes into maybe the
next idea thing that I wanted to to talk to
you about is just there's not many proven coaches that
(19:05):
are gonna move jobs, and so you have to kind
of look under the radar. I'm not saying that Derees
was completely under the radar, but before he went to
West Virginia, he was obviously just a mid major coach
and looking at just raw numbers of offensive and defensive
efficiency without any context. As you mentioned, it doesn't really
(19:25):
tell the whole story because when you're out of Drake,
you're ceiling for how high you can likely even get
in those computer numbers. It's pretty limited because of the
schedule that you're playing, unless you go out in the
non conference and are just ultra aggressive and say you
play eight or nine games against top fifty teams, which
would be pretty stupid to do because if you especially
if you're trying to make the tournament, you only have
(19:47):
a probably you know, you could maybe get the top forty,
top thirty. I think some of Dusty May's later teams
at Ford Atlantic and they may have scheduled more agressively.
I haven't looked at it closely, but they made their
way up. But obviously the one year he made a
final four, in the following year they were really a
ranked team all season. And so this idea that you
(20:09):
have to hire a proven coach, I think Dan Hurley
is a great example of this. No one was knocking
down doors to hire Dan Hurley based on what he
did at Rhode Island. He started out there really slowly
and he gradually built over time. And another example of
this based in this year's tournament, Grant McCaslin. I mean,
he was at North Texas and I don't think before
(20:32):
Texas Tech hired him he would have even been a
name that people looked at for moving up a level.
And he's proven himself to be successful. So the everyone
I think gravitates towards the idea of a t J Olzelberger,
or they gravitate towards the Brad Stevens or the Scott Drew,
the Tommy all these names that are but look at
(20:55):
where most of them came from. They were in the
kind of the same position that Darren rees is coming
to Indiana. They had relatively little to no experience at
the high major level, and they went into a program
that committed to them, gave them the opportunity to move up,
and eventually, if you're a good enough coach, you elevate
the program with you.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah. And I want to caveat this by saying, like,
I understand where a lot of Indiana fans are coming.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
I get I get it too. Yeah, it's fun to
dream about the home run higher, but realistically, how often
does that happen? I mean, look at last year with
Pat Kelsey and Mark Pope were I mean, those guys
had to combine zero n CAA tournament wins when they
were hired. That's unthinkable for programs like that to hire
coaches like that.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yeah, that's what's funny too, is I gotten a little
bit of a back and forth, which I should honestly
do less of on Twitter, But sometimes I can't help
myself with somebody that was like I kind of mentioned
the Hurley mold and because they were mad that we
hired Devrees. When I say we, I mean Indiana, and
I was like, okay, well, you know he was like
(22:04):
Dan Hurley had a much better winning percentage than Devrez
did before he got the Yukon job. It's like, that's
absolutely false. Verrez has a over a seventy percent win percentage.
Hurley had fifty seven percent prior to going to Yukon.
And I'm not saying Devrez is going to be Dan Hurley,
but that's part of Scott Dolson's job, right, is projecting
where can this guy take the program? How has he
(22:26):
done things elsewhere? You know, what makes him special? Does
he need something to make him special? Maybe you don't,
Like maybe at Indiana, all you need is just somebody
that coaches basketball, can get along with the donors, understands
how to use the fan base to your advantage, and
you don't have to be special. Like there is that
possibility as well. You know, there's there's been guys that
(22:47):
have gone far that aren't these crazy you know, personalities
or great just the best x's and those guys, but
they understand just how to elevate people, and they're good leaders.
And you know, for me, my biggest thing here with
Darren Devreez is everything I've heard about him is the
dude loves basketball. He's going to go out and grind
on the recruiting trail. He's going to understand what it
(23:10):
takes to make Indiana tick. I mean, a lot of
people have talked to that have had meetings with him
already are important people in the state, and like it
or not, like you got to get along with those people,
and you got to be able to talk to the
top donors, and you got to be able to talk
to the common fan. Not that the fans are this
end all be all and you have to be best
(23:32):
friends with all of them, but as he noted in
his press conference, like having a passionate fan base can
certainly be used to your advantage. And just understanding that
from the outset to me is why I'm confident this
is a good hire. And then also having a guy
that was at a great job in West Virginia, like
West Virginia is a really good job. They've got great support,
(23:55):
They're like the professional team of the state. Everybody rallies
around them. That's a good job job, and the fact
he was willing to leave that after one year to
go take the Indiana job because he thinks he can
do great things with Indiana. To me, you've got to
have a little bit of like, for lack of a
better terms, dog in you like to leave a good
job after one year to go take a better one,
(24:17):
And to me, like that mentality in that mindset is
why I think this is not an Archie Miller higher
Like I don't think Archie Miller really ever wanted the
Indiana job, but he just thought how could you say
no to Indiana? Whereas Darren Devrees, I think this is
something like, Hey, I want this. I think I can
go do big things here at Indiana, and I'm going
to leave this great job and these great people to
(24:39):
go elevate a program that has a lot of history
and I think I can get it back to that.
So that's what gives me a lot of confidence here
in this higher.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Yeah, I mean, everyone talks about Indiana being a fish
bowl and the fans and the negativity, but if you
don't have the passion from the fan base, what do
you really have as a program you have really nothing.
I mean, that's what's really kept Indiana basketball relative are
relevant all these years is they've not won, but the
(25:10):
fans continue to show up and support the program and
all this. You know, we talk about this every coaching
hire Indiana. I wouldn't call it a sleeping giant because
obviously there's there's a lot of support anyway, But imagine
what it would look like if you are the person
that comes back to Indiana or comes to Indiana and
(25:30):
gets it back to contending regularly in the Big Ten.
And I don't even want to hear about national championship
stuff because to me, like the number one thing for
Indiana is just try to get in the you know,
top three or four in the Big ten regularly and
then worry about the other stuff. I mean, that was
one of the things that Mike Woodson talked about from
the beginning. It drove me nuts. It's like, did you
(25:50):
not see the standings the last four years? Shouldn't even
be talking about national championships. Just get back in the
hunt in the Big ten. But I agree with you
the idea that he is embracing the challenge and going
back to Archie looking back on it, he never really
seemed comfortable with the idea of like being the India coach.
He just wanted to coach the team. There's a lot
(26:12):
of other things that go into it. That's the one
thing we'll see with Debes how when time progress, as
time goes along here, how he embraces the other responsibilities
of being the coach. I mean, he obviously handled the
press conference really well. He didn't. It wasn't any like
crazy charisma that he's shown or anything like that. But
he obviously met every question had on But the things
(26:34):
that he said just in terms about his process and
how he wants to build a program, build a culture,
these are not really things that we definitely didn't hear
from Mike Woodson, and we may have heard them early
on from Archie Miller, but then we just heard less
and less from him over time. So I think from
a communications standpoint, he's off to a much better start
as well.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Totally agree. And you know, I got some people that
are like he seemed pretty dry, you know, is that
the personality that can win at Indiana? And yes, absolutely,
you know, And what I'd think too, is like he
was dry in his prepared statement, like he obviously wasn't
very comfortable in giving that as soon as the questions
came and he was talking off the cuff just about
(27:15):
basketball and how he wants to lead a program, and
that weren't things that were prepared like those were. To me,
that was his better side of the press conference when
he didn't have to, you know, thank all the right
people and just try to say all the right things
to get people going. It was when he got the
questions from you guys in the media and he could
just talk shop and how he wants to build a
program and how he's gonna run his offense and his defense,
(27:36):
and like, to me, that was that's like the charisma
side of it and how you can sell, cause that's
when you're in the room with parents and kids and
agents and all those things, Like how do you sell
your vision in your team to get them to buy
in what you're doing to what you're doing. And he
did that extremely well at the press conference, Like here's
what I'm going to do. He laid out a very clear,
(27:56):
coherent plan and then you know, when he's in that
room with the kids, he's going to obviously do that
at a deeper level, and like that's what people want.
They want to see your vision and then you get
them to buy into that vision. And I think he's
going to have that. It reminds me a lot of
sig mean kind of how he talks about building culture,
staying process oriented, not worrying about the results, you know,
(28:19):
being very cognizant of culture, and not letting the wrong
people in, you know, to me, that's the like people
have been. Like, Indiana does not attached to anybody in
the portal, and it's like, well, if you want desperation
and to just continually just have your name attached to
every guy in the portal, then like, let's go flashback
to last year, because the last couple of years, like
that's that's not necessarily what you want. You know. He
(28:42):
talked about I'm going to build a team where the
pieces fit together, whereas under Mike Woodson it was accumulating
talent and then let's figure it out. And as we
could have seen the last couple of years in Indiana,
they couldn't really ever mesh and figure it out because
the pieces just didn't fit. And so the fact that
Indiana's not attached to every guy in the portal and
they're being very kind of cognizant of here's the pieces
(29:07):
we want, and we're not going to deviate from that
process in that plan, and the fact that all the
best players are still playing as well, so it's like,
you know, everybody available right now are all the guys
that lost, Not that you can't get guys that have
lost or mid major guys or whatever. But I do
think that there's a very clear plan and it's very
(29:27):
similar to what kind of Sig did with the football
program of like we're not going to sacrifice things in
year one to kind of go away from our standards,
like we're gonna have these standards and if if we
don't win a national championship in year one, but it's
giving us a solid foundation to build upon, Like that's
what you want as a program. And so that's what
(29:49):
I'm kind of excited to see, is like what's this
foundation gonna be and and how are they going to
build it and how are these pieces going to fit together?
And then what I'm also excited about is it seems
is they're going to go do a euro trip this summer,
so we'll kind of get a glimpse of what those
pieces look like a little bit earlier than some previous seasons.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
I hope we can get some television coverage for that
if it does happen, because I know the last couple
of times I know when Kentucky takes these trips, it's
like a big deal, Like the SEC networks, they're covering
the games, which is I think a great way to
showcase your program. And I know the Montreal trip because
I went on that trip back in twenty fourteen. It
was I went to it was five exhibition games. We
(30:33):
were allowed to show two minutes of video from all
the games and it's like, what are we hiding here
in August? And I know the last time they went
it was I think twenty twenty one the Bahamas. It
was the same thing because I had I got somebody
down there to take videos, like we can show two minutes.
I'm like, this is these are exhibition games. Like do
everything you can to promote your program and try to
get as much out there. I mean, it's a way
(30:54):
to build excitement for the program. So I hope that's
something that changes for that. I want to go back
to the portal though for one second, it last year.
I think a lot of us, myself included other people
in the media, got caught up in the portal rankings
where guys were ranked. You know, Miles Rice was the whatever,
top five point guard in the portal. Canaan Carlisle was
a top fifty player in the portal. Umar Bolla was
(31:17):
the center everybody wanted, and we talked a lot of
us tucked ourselves into just grabbing all these players are talented,
figuring out later. But Indian is gonna have talent. So
we heard all season right, Indiana's got talent. They can
make a run. But the pieces didn't necessarily fit together.
So you mentioned kind of the lack of information right
(31:37):
now in terms of being connected to Portal guys, and
I think some of that is the fact that there's
not a full staff in place yet, and also that
this for those that don't follow me on social media.
I put out a timeline yesterday that I talked to
my friend Dylan Burkehart of um Hoops of Dusty May
was hired kind of a similar timeframe last spring, and
(32:00):
when they started getting commitments wasn't until the back half
of April. So even though it may feel like things
are a little behind schedule or moving slowly. It's really
still early. I mean, it's what they five of the portal,
and it's a thirty day window, and guys don't have
to be committed by the time the portal closes. They
just have to be in the portal. And I think
(32:22):
you made a great point. The guys that are in
the portal right now unless you've left a team that's
still playing, which I think there's a couple. Yeah, right,
there's a couple examples of that. But sure, there's gonna
be great players out there, but there's probably a couple
of players maybe that are still playing right now, that
Indiana wants to get for next season that are going
(32:42):
to go in the portal. What do you think, just
from a fan perspective, when you when you follow this
whole process, what are you going to be looking for
just in terms of fit and style of play when
you evaluate these portal guys.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yeah, I think it's going to be huge and it'll
be fun to see kind of you know. Obviously Derees
has been a little bit hamstrung everywhere he's been thus far,
Like at Drake obviously you're not going to get five star,
four star talent. Then at West Virginia last year. You know,
you're building a new roster. You know, it's not like
it's they have good in al, but it's not like
(33:18):
you have great in il. So to me, it'll be
really interesting to see, like this would be the first
time Derese to probably go out and build a roster
very cool. I don't want to say the perfect roster
for what he wants, but pretty close to like his
ideal scenario of how you build a team, And so
to me, it'll kind of be really interesting to see
(33:39):
what that means and how and how that projects moving
forward for his tenure. Now, it's going to be a
little bit more difficult because he's trying to get twelve
thirteen guys rostered right. So it may not be his
perfect ideal team in year one, but I think he's
going to be able to get the prototypes he won
at each position, Like point guard. I'm guessing he's gonna
(34:00):
want somebody like the Javon Small was at West Virginia.
You know, somebody that can play two ways, very dynamic
with the basketball in their hands, makes great decisions, can
put the ball in the bucket, and then it's kind
of the head of the snake of the defense, applies
great ball pressure and just takes the offense out of
what they want to do. So point guard wise, that's
what I'm guessing he's gonna try to go get, especially
(34:21):
since he has some much success with small then he's
gonna want dynamic wings. You know, guys that can play
multiple positions, probably two through four can guard multiple positions
and put the ball in the bucket, right, you know, duh,
But it's it sounds like common sense, but that's that's
likely what he's want to go want to go get.
(34:41):
His son's gonna be more of that stretch for Mold,
so he might go get try to get somebody that's
more dynamic at the four that he can plug in
off the bench. You know, somebody kind of like a
Caleb Bakes prototype, you know, long, athletic, like I said,
it can guard multiple positions and things like that. And
(35:03):
then we talked about the big man, you know, kind
of having some length and athleticism to him. But maybe
off the bench, he'll try to get somebody that's a
little bit more like your typical five of just kind
of big, strong to play in the post, because you
know you're gonna be grinding through the Big ten against
a lot of really good post players, and you might
(35:23):
want to go get somebody off the bench that can
kind of compliment what your other big is doing. So
to me, it'll be really fascinating to see what he
goes and gets. And then I think what you're gonna
see more than anything is he's not going to sacrifice
the team to go get a five star talent or
something like that. Like his teams play extremely hard, like
(35:44):
they just do. I went and watched a lot of
West Virginia film, like didn't have a ton of talent,
especially as the year wore down and they lost guys
the injury, but they just played so hard. His Drake
team played extremely hard, So he's gonna go get guys
I think that are going to give it everything they've
got on the floor when they're out there. They're guys
(36:04):
that aren't afraid to kind of sink their teeth in
on the defensive end and get stops and things like that.
So to me, it'll be really interesting to see kind
of like the prototypes at each position that he's targeting,
because I do think it's going to be pretty dissimilar
to what we've seen in Indiana for quite some time.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yeah, the other thing I'm potentially excited to see is
there maybe a couple of freshmen that you could go
out and get to kind of because you're you're filling
so many spots. I don't know that you want to
go completely with all. I mean, let's say right now
the reezes on the roster. Who knows what happens with
Luke Goodie, but Trent Sisley, so there's one freshman. But
(36:47):
if you're gonna fill and again people are well, there's
fifteen spots, I don't know that you're going to fill
that many spots. I mean, that's a good way to
not have a great locker room if you're going to
bring in fifteen scholarship players. I don't necessarily I think
that's the way to do it, although it maybe you
bring in a couple of freshmen that are long, longer
(37:08):
term development guys. Again, you got to get the right
player with the right mindset, because the problem there is
you bring a guy in don't play very much and
then they just hit the portal, so it's like a
wasted year. But I think one thing you can learn
from Matt Painter and his program at Purdue. He's been
able to sell that vision on a longer term timeline
(37:28):
for a lot of these guys, and it works right
because you bring a guy in and you develop them
over course of a couple of years, and all of
a sudden, like a Trey Kaufman Wrin, most programs would
have lost him after a year or two because he's
red shirting, he's not playing, and all of a sudden, he's,
you know, still alive in the NCAA tournament and scoring
(37:48):
what fifteen seventeen eighteen points a game regularly. So that
would be another thing that's kind of interesting to me,
because I don't think you want to get yourself in
a situation where you have just all portal guys that
are gonna be but you know a lot of them
will be seniors, and you want to have some guys
at least you can build some continuity year over year.
That was one thing that stood out from what he
(38:09):
said in the program in the press conference, is just
basically trying to make the experience so that you're not
losing a ton of guys every year, because I don't
think any coach wants to go through what this will
be the second straight year for him of building from
the ground up. I don't think that's a sustainable system
for the long term.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Yeah, I don't. It's just it's hard. It makes your
life extremely hard, especially when you're in the spring, like
that's a big time for development, but when you're having
to focus all of your energy on building a roster
each year, you kind of lose out on that. And
then like for him, it's really weird, like they're not
running spring workouts right now because they don't have a team,
(38:51):
and it's not like those guys can just show up
in March like they're at their previous universities until summer hits.
So you know, he got nothing more to do right
now than obviously dive into the portal and getting his
staff aligned and things like that. But it's just such
a different time where you don't have a literally a
(39:11):
single guy possibly returning, and so like you don't have
any anybody to work out, like you know, I mean
his son, that's it, right, Yeah, And I've heard that
like the guys that are in the portal are still
allowed to use the facilities and things like that to
work out themselves and things like that. But yeah, just
(39:32):
a very weird, Like I can't imagine any coach ever
thought they would ever have to do that once even
a decade ago, and now that you know, now he's
on a second straight year of having to do something
similar to this, and so very interesting. I don't know
that it's it's it's great for college basketball that so
many teams are turning over their entire rosters year in
(39:54):
and year out. But I do think as Indiana fans,
it's kind of a nice cleanse, a bit of just
like putting the past in the past and kind of
a renewed future of just all new you know, seemingly
all new staff, seemingly all new players, like everything's different,
and I think just a program reset is probably healthy
(40:17):
for everybody involved. And so I think it just there
should be a lot of like optimism around the program
right now. I think with just everything kind of being
fresh and new, you know, you're not thinking like how
well this guy worked out, like he wasn't very good
last year and things like that. It's like, nope, all new,
everything's looking forward to the future. I don't think that's
(40:37):
necessarily a bad thing for where Indian is at right now.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Yep, Well, Tony, thanks for carving out the time for
us on this Friday morning. Always good to uh talk
to you. As I said earlier in the show, everyone
that hasn't watched your video breakdown on Darren Devrees over
on is the best place to do that.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
You can do it X or you. It's on YouTube
as well if you just type in Darren Devrees it's
on there as well.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Okay, make sure to check that out if you haven't.
Tony again, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks everybody
as always for listening to Podcasts on the Brink. If
you enjoy the show, please leave us a rating and
review over on Apple Podcasts, leave us a five star
rating on Spotify, and we'll be back soon with another
episode of podcast on the Brink.
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