December 11, 2025 • 37 mins
On this episode, Alex Bozich is joined by Cameron Drummond, a writer for Inside the Hall during the 2019-20 season and now of The Lexington Herald-Leader, for thoughts on Kentucky basketball's early-season struggles and Saturday's matchup between the Hoosiers and Wildcats.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Welcome back to a new episode of Podcasts on the
Brink Thursday, December eleventh. Big basketball game coming up this weekend.
Indiana Basketball will be in Lexington, Kentucky to take on
the University of Kentucky, who is off to a bit
of a shaky start this season under second year coach
(00:38):
Mark Pope. To help us talk a little bit about
Kentucky's early season struggles and also look forward to the matchup.
Cameron Drummond, old friend now the Lexington Herald Leader one
time was a student reporter for Inside the Halls with
us on Podcast on the Brink. Before we get to Cameron,
I wanted to just take a quick moment remind you
(00:58):
if you're watching the show on YouTube, like the video,
subscribe to the channel. Really helps us grow our reach there.
You enjoy the show on Apple Podcasts Spotify. Leave was
a five star rating and review. Always appreciate all the
support there. Thank you for that. Cameron, welcome back. You
had an abrupt ending to your time and Inside the
(01:18):
Hall because of the pandemic. I remember still remember it.
You know people you know ask me some of the
moments that stand out. Been doing this now since two
thousand and seven. I still think about this from time
to time. You and Dylan Wallace at the Big Ten
Tournament in twenty twenty. It looked like Indiana was going
to break through there and make it to the NCAA tournament.
(01:42):
You guys were finally going to get to cover the tournament,
and then all of a sudden everything is shut down.
You were I think in the aftermath of that, you
and Dylan were like helping me grind like Q and
a's with former IU players and all time IU player
bracket things like that, just to kind of keep the
conversation going because there were no games. But it's come
(02:03):
a long way in those what it will be six
years in March. Things much more normal now. But what
do you remember about that that time in that day.
I remember seeing Fred Hoiber looking ill on the bench
in that game, and there's a lot of concern that
and then all of a sudden it was just Big
To tournament was over.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
You know, there's certain things that like I don't think
about a ton from my time at IU or covering
IU basketball, just because I've been on the Kentucky beat
for a few years. And you mean, you know this
as well as anyone news comes left, right and center.
Things just get pushed to the recess of your brain.
But hearing you described kind of the parameters of that,
I remember everything about that day because there was Indiana
(02:43):
and Nebraska in the eight twelve game or ten the
eleven fourteen games, something like that. Basically, Indiana needed a
win to lock up that tournament spot, and I guess
what ended up being Archie's penultimate year in charge, they
crushed them, and Nebraska played like two on football players
in the game because they didn't have enough scholarship basketball guys.
(03:04):
Fred Hoiberg, who ended up just having the flu is
like sick on the bench. Me and Dylan Wallace you mentioned,
my former roommate and fellow inside the Hall intern. We're
sitting courtside at Banker's Life. Also during that game is
when Rudy Gobert comes back positive for COVID. So the
NBA shuts down and they canceled that game in Oklahoma City,
and I remember postgame, you know, they really rushed through
(03:27):
postgame press conferences at Banker's Life and we were basically
sequestered on the Pacers practice court, which is where they
had a big ten tournament. Like podium media sessions. We
all had to chill out there for like an hour
or two because everyone thought Fred Hoiberg had COVID. Nobody
knew how it spread any of that stuff. And one
of the things, actually one of my biggest regrets from
(03:47):
my time at inside the Hall is that night we
drove back from India to Bloomington, we weren't sure really
what was going to happen with the world. Obviously we
know everything got canceled from that point onward. But I
stayed up until like three am, and I wrote a
story because I was sitting right behind the Indiana bench
the entire game.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
So I wrote a.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Story that laid out exactly what Archie Miller said, did
bench interactions, yelling at the ref, talking with you know,
probably Bruiser Flint and tom O'strummer, whoever the assistants were,
and it was I thought it was pretty good, or
at least my like twenty one year old brain thought
this is a killer story. And it just remained in
my Google docs the entire time because it didn't feel
(04:25):
like a good time to post it when the world
was that ding, So that one never saw the light
of day. So I'm still disappointed I didn't force that
one through, especially when we were starved for content.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
You know, IU doesn't play from December twenty second through
January fourth, so maybe we can fit that one in
after Christmas. Just kind of look back at the story
that was never told by Cam drummen. Just just kidding.
So you you graduated, obviously, and then went to Austin
for I think you told me eleven months to cover
(04:54):
community news down in Austin, Texas, a good maybe break
from the sports world there after covering pretty depressing time
in IU basketball. For the amount of years you did
in other IU sports too, there wasn't just a lot
of good sports. But then get the opportunity to go
to Lexington cover UK women's basketball. I believe it first.
And now you're the secondary on UK men's basketball. What's
(05:18):
it just been like just adjusting to You've been there
now for what more than four years? But what's what's
it been like just covering those programs and what's your
time on Lexington been like so far?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Well, let me start by saying, my time in Lexington
has been tremendous. I was telling you off fare that
I was actually in Bloomington, Indiana, visiting friends. I want
to say it was maybe around the graduation period for
that twenty twenty one class, and I would just out
of the blue got an email from the former sports
editor here at the Lexington Herald Leader, Matt Groff, asking
if I'd be interested in covering UK women's basketball or
(05:54):
joining the sports staff here at large, and I told
him I'd never been to Lexington, Kentucky before.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
The only thing I knew about it is that UK
was situated here.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
But I was up for an adventure and so that
could have gone really poorly if I like didn't like
the city and everything that came with the job. But
it's been a tremendous few years and you reference, you know,
I started off on the UK women's basketball beat. I
actually got to cover the senior year of Ryan Howard,
who went on to be the one number one overall
pick in the twenty twenty two WNBA draft. I actually
(06:23):
was in Indiana twice of the first year I covered
the UK women's basketball team, because they played at Indiana
in the regular season, lost by like thirty, then returned
to Indiana as their NCAA tournament site, and it was
kind of billed as of maybe a big rematch between
them and Terry Moorin's IU squad, and then UK lost
to Princeton in the first round, So continued the streak
(06:43):
of if I'm around a program in the postseason, it's
usually going to go poorly for them. But you know,
you reference kind of obviously this is a tremendous, you know,
spectacle in the state of Kentucky. Like Kentucky basketball very
much like Indiana basketball is something that the passion throughout
the state, not just in Central Kentucky, you know, really
on a national scale as well, especially given what John
(07:04):
Calipari did, you know, kind of the turn of the
oughts to the twenty tens with all the freshmen in
the one and done's, Like, the leadership we get is tremendous.
You know, eighteen twenty thousand people at RUP Arena, where
there's fireworks going off before games. You know, we were
talking off air, and I'm sure we'll get into it
in the podcast, but the resources that they dedicate to
(07:26):
the UK men's basketball program as well, the scrutiny that
Calipari toward the end of his tenure, Mark Pope's gotten,
especially this season, you know, it really is a pressure cooker,
a fish bowl kind of environment. And I will say
as well that I think I was sitting in a
coffee shop here in Lexington. I want to say in
twenty twenty three when the series was announced the renewal
(07:46):
of the IU UK rivalry, you know, back when Calipari
and Mike Woodson were the head coaches to people who
notably are no longer here. But one of my first
thoughts after writing up the news release was, man, I
wonder if I may get on podcast on the Brink
again when that game rolls around.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
So I'm happy to have a few years on.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah, it's I think it's a good thing that the
game's coming back. It's been far too long. Obviously, it's
the first time since the December tenth, twenty eleven game
in Bloomington that they played a regular season game, or
I think a lot of that obviously was because cal
Perry didn't want to come to Bloomington again and Indiana
was not necessarily open to neutral court games. Kind of
(08:27):
had a bit of a compromise with this series with
the four game deal where they're going to play two
in Lexington one and Indy one in Bloomington. Don't love
that set up from an IU perspective to give in
that much, but I think that's what it took to
get it done. And then, obviously, as you mentioned, the
coaches that agreed to the deal no longer in place,
So I do think for the long term, both programs
(08:49):
probably in healthier positions. Just in terms of the coaching
changes you mentioned cal Perry, you know, it seemed like
his time had really come to an end there, just
based on a lot of different factors. And obviously with
Indiana Mike Woodson, I think a lot of people thought
maybe after year three that it was time for him
to go, and he stayed that extra year and things
(09:10):
didn't go well and his tenure. But this Kentucky team,
you mentioned the reported twenty two million dollar INIL payroll
whatever you want to call it, for this group, that
was obviously something that was you know, I saw it
aggregated various places in the preseason, but you told me
that the Herald Leader was the one that actually reported
(09:31):
that figure. How has that impacted the way that the
fan base looks at this team in terms of just
the performance so far, because it seems to me, and
this is again I've told you I've only watched really
part of the Gonzaga game, not watch the team play,
but I see some of the stuff on social media.
(09:54):
It seems to me that people are kind of throwing
that number out when it's can in terms of criticizing
Mark Pope and saying that he's not done a good
job with this team. And I'm just curious how that
kind of how that number is maybe kind of weighed
on the start that they've had so far.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Certainly.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah, and let me just start by saying that if
anyone has any interest in any of our Kentucky preview content,
please go over to Kentucky dot com and Kentucky dot
com slash sports. We have a really good men's basketball
staff led by my kind of senior colleague, Ben Roberts,
who was the first to get that twenty two million
dollar number out there. And we have a ton of
stuff this week leading up to the IU game, even
some Indiana focused stuff that I'm taking a crack at
(10:34):
my expert knowledge of both the both teams that I
think people will enjoy. But you mentioned the twenty two
million dollar number. Obviously that was something that came out,
you know, September ish. I think is when we reported it,
you know, kind of in the lead up to the season.
You combine that with defeating Purdue, then the number one
team in the country in their first exhibition game, and
that those two factors I think really rashed up expectations
(10:58):
for this team, which were already high. I think a
lot of people remember Mark Pope's introductory press conference some
eighteen months ago where he's yelling about raising banner number
nine and that national championships and final fours are really
the only standard that matters at Kentucky.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
The fan base ran with that obviously.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Last year they were hindered a bit by injuries and
some on the fly roster construction, but they showed a
lot of promising play. They played a really beautiful brand
of basketball that was predicated on cutting three point shots,
free flowing offense. They had a ton of seniors, fifth
year grad transfer guys who really made that gel and
it was a pretty likable team to kind of fall
(11:34):
in love with from a fan based perspective. Stylistically, all
those things entering this season, as I was telling you
off air, Mark Pope really kind of changed the roster construction,
or at least based on historically what he did both
during his first year at Kentucky in his previous stops
at Utah Valley and BYU, he went a lot more physical,
a lot more defense.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
First.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
You know a lot of these guys that they targeted
in the portal, the likes of Jaden Quainton's, who is
their top transfer from Arizona State, who hasn't even played
yet this year because he's recovering from a torn acl
but other guys as well. You know, I'm thinking about
Mohammed Diabate from Alabama, Denzel Aberdeen, who was the sixth
man on last year's Florida National Championship squad. You know,
even otega Oway, who was the preseason SEC Player of
(12:18):
the Year. It was a little bit less offensive skill
and a little bit more like physicality, grittiness defense, because
that was an area that Kentucky struggled in last year.
So far this regular season, they've gotten none of that
defensive trade off, and their offensive ceiling has seemingly shrunk.
Feels like a case where maybe they brought in a
lot of pieces that don't necessarily fit the coaches playing
(12:41):
style or philosophy super well, and then the result of
that has been in zero to four record in high
major games. You know, you lose a rivalry matchup to Louisville,
they hadn't lost in several years. You go down by
north of twenty points at one point, you know, in
the Cardinals gym at the Young Center, you get blown
up by Michigan State. In the Champions Classic, you lose
(13:01):
what was an eminently winnable game against North Carolina where
Kentucky kind of choked a bit down the stretch and
I think missed thirteen or their final fifteen shots in
a really lively rap arena. And then you reference the
game that you watch part of that Gonzaga embarrassment where
that Nashville crowd booed the Wildcats off the court like
nothing too many people have ever seen before. So the
(13:22):
twenty two million dollar number to go back to that
obviously plays a role. You know, I think a lot
of members of the fan base feel that that's currently
not money well spent or money that cope and just
the roster building folks have kind of mismanaged. I will
say some of that is a little bit misleading, only
from the standpoint of a large chunk of those deals
and that monetary payout came before the true summer house
(13:45):
settlement regulations came in, so you know, you can look
at it from more so players that Pope identified to
maybe give some more money on the front end, while
you know, maybe taking a longer term approach, like hey,
if we give you a little bit more here, committing
you to stay for an extra year or two, or
just you know, looking at not just from the pure
twenty two million dollars for one season lens. All that
(14:07):
being said, I think a lot of people in the
fan base are very dubious, shall we say, about this
team's roster construction, how they fit in together. You know,
if there's enough offensive production. If there's one, go get
a bucket guy on this team. And there's also been
a ton of questions recently about just basic tent pole
things like energy, effort, hustle. We had Kentucky's starting center
(14:29):
at the beginning of the year, Brandon Garrison getting benched
during the wildcats last game against North Carolina Central on
Tuesday night for a lack of hustle.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
You had one of the.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Transfer editions, Cam Williams, not checking in until there were
thirteen minutes to go in the game. I think you
referenced injuries earlier too. Mohammed Diabate has been out with
a high ankle sprain. Their projective starting point guard, jail
and Low, actually hasn't started a game yet this year
because he's hurt his right shoulder for the last two
or so months. So a combination of a ton of factors,
(14:59):
but it's all leading to some really intense scrutiny of
Mark Pope his roster building approach for this season, and
you know, plain and simple, the allocation of resources for
a team that on December eleventh, as we record on
Thursday morning, still doesn't have a high major win and
could really be staring down the barrel of things if
they losed Indiana this weekend and Saint John's next weekend
before SEC play begins.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, so I understand the you know, you mentioned fish
Bowl and scrutiny and everything. Is it and you'll never
I think there's it's probably impossible to rationalize with some
Kentucky fans ever about the program and what it should be.
But do you think the do you think it's a
little overboard in terms of what the reaction has been
so far based on the fact that Hope did go
(15:44):
to the Sweet sixteen last year, had a really solid
first year. He seems to do everything kind of the
right way, just in terms of how he presents himself.
He always takes responsibility. It feels like for losses when
things go bad and there's still a lot of season left,
I mean, the season's clearly not over. There's gonna be
a ton of opportunities. You mentioned the Indiana game, you
mentioned the Saint John's game. There's gonna be eighteen sec games.
(16:07):
It just feels to me and in some ways, you know,
I think Indiana can be this way too, that sometimes
every loss is every win is expected, and every loss
is magnified to the point where it just becomes sometimes
the negativity is hard for a coach and players to
operate in. Is that is that kind of the Is that?
(16:29):
Is that a fair way to put this? And do
you feel like the scrutiny sometimes is maybe a little
bit too high on on this on this team?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Well, certainly from like a potential coaching Chaine standpoint, we
are eons away from that. I don't think there's any
world short of anything off the court occurring, which there's
no semblance of Mark Pope not returning as UK's coach
next season. I do think even some of this fan
anger is maybe built up from the tail end of
last season. You know, Kentucky's defense was really porous. You know,
(16:58):
they kind of had an improvement toward the end of
SEC play going into the tournament, but still, this is
a team that lost its SEC tournament game by nearly
thirty points in the quarterfinals to Alabama, your reference going
back to the Sweet sixteen for the first time since
twenty nineteen. But then in the Sweet sixteen, which they
played at Lucas Oil up in Indy, lose to a
Tennessee team that you had already beaten two times earlier
(17:20):
in the season, which a lot of people you know,
kind of really earmarked is a pretty golden chance to
get to the Elite eight, I believe, also for the
first time since twenty nineteen. And obviously a lot of
this is you know, kind of fan angst and anxiety,
and that's always going to get blown out of proportion
at a place like Kentucky. I do think the manner
of their defeats have really driven a lot of this
as well, because again, this is not like they've lost
(17:42):
four coin flip games against name brand opponents. They've gotten
absolutely boat raced in three of them. I think a
lot of people have the jury still out on how
good North Carolina is and losing you know, a blue
blood premier game at home like that when they had
the game won several times over isn't going to sit
well with folks. You know, people are probably very much
(18:03):
like kind of still jumpy and reactionary. Again because you know,
Kentucky basketball. Pope comes in preaching the standard of banners
and final fours the north of twenty million dollars anil figure,
and then starting off oho and four in high major games.
The way that they've played, I'm sure is unacceptable in
a lot of people's viewpoints. I think now Pope is
something like two and nine in his last eleven games
(18:24):
against ranked teams, which isn't going to help people. And again,
some of the things I've referenced earlier, like Mark Pope
was really mad postgame Tuesday after they clobbered North Carolina
Central talking about how there's a standard that the players
need to live up to that they're not currently reaching.
That you know, there's basic kind of requisite things like
giving the right energy, hustling back after a turnover, playing
(18:46):
off two feet and trying to make plays for your teammates.
He even talked about how this team doesn't truly know
what it means to compete yet, and he described that
as terrifying. You know, again, we're here on December eleventh,
after an off season where anybody who watch the UK
practice was willing to tell media members how competitive and
feisty and you know, tenacious they are. Yet this is
(19:07):
a team that seemingly just doesn't gel on the court,
or at least hasn't to this point. And obviously that
spins off into a million different message board rumors, right.
I mean, we've heard everything from off the court stuff
involving players, to this team doesn't really like each other,
to this team you know, is fighting in pregame meetings,
in the locker room, you know, some outlandish things that
(19:29):
you know, for the most part, is not true. And
then Pope's also had some pr blunders as well, and
I think that kind of goes into why the fan
base has been particularly disappointed in him this season. As
you mentioned, he does a lot of things the right way.
At his best, He's a very engaging personality. He'll dive
into the basketball X and o's all day, but at
his worst, like if anybody saw him post that Michigan
(19:50):
State game at Madison Square Garden, he is he takes
losing really hard, so he'll go up there at the
postgame press conference and he'll mumble out some words and
just maybe not be the most engaging, confident, gregarious presence.
And for the last fifteen years before that, you got
nothing but that, you know, with John Caliperi, in the
best of times and in the worst of times. So
that's been adjustment, and you know that leads to you
(20:12):
know again people on message boards being mad that Pope
isn't getting angry in the huddles and that he's not,
you know, projecting this bombastic presence that people usually look
for from the Kentucky basketball coach. He did break a
clipboard over his knee in that North Carolina Central game
on Tuesday night, which is just about the angriest I've
ever seen him in any setting. So maybe that tide
(20:33):
is starting to change. But I think all those factors
are kind of co mingling in a way where the
fan base is overreacting in the overall about Pope's tenure,
but specifically within like the micro of this season, why
they're so desperate for a win, like the opportunity will
come for on Saturday.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, so it feels like a big game for Indiana,
but it's not a game. I don't think before the
season that you would look at the schedule, you know.
I looked at the schedule before the year in turn,
like leading to the Washington game, which is the first
game after this long break after Christmas, and I thought,
if they could get there with only two losses, they'd
been doing pretty well for themselves. Well, they have two
losses now, and the Minnesota game was the game where
(21:13):
I think people were a little perplexed they lost. I
don't think anyone in the preseason would expected them to
beat Louisville and North Misial Court. And I don't think
anyone expected them to go into Rept. Breen and win Steels.
Is obviously a little bit more possible now, just kind
of based on how Kentucky's played so far. But is
this a much bigger game for Kentucky than it is
Indiana at this point?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I think that's fair to say, because again, looking at
the UK schedule, they get Indiana on Saturday.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
After that they go to st.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
They play a neutral syde game in Atlanta against Saint John's,
and the whole tenor of that game completely changed with
Kentucky's slow start to the year, because before that's Rick Patino,
who was the head coach of UK's ninety six title
team that Mark Pope was a captain on. They finally
got this game on the schedule, you know, a four.
Patino finally exits college basketball may be or maybe whole
(22:00):
coach to be one hundred and fifty, who knows, And
then they play another Cupcake. They get Bellerman right after
that Saint John's game, and after that it's only SEC play,
and all of a sudden, this looks like a bit
of a down year for the SEC, or at least
certainly not the heights that it was at last year
when they got fourteen of the league sixteen schools into
the tournament. You start as a CE play at Alabama.
(22:20):
That's probably not going to go well for this Kentucky
team if they keep playing that the way that they are,
And so all of a sudden, you know, you get
off to an oh and one star and SEC play
you're potentially and seven at high major games at that point, you.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Know, some of the other off court stuff as well.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Has been a lot of scrutiny about Kentucky's NIL procedures,
not just in the context of this season, but in
the aggregate. They still don't have a true high school
commitment from the twenty twenty sixth class, despite being rumored
with several five star prospects from that group, so that
stop people on edge as well. It does feel like
the season's on a little bit of a knife edge.
(22:57):
The season might be on the brink. Some people are
saying to borrow a line. So it's crazy to think about.
But this game actually matters a ton for Kentucky, way
more than I would have expected to begin this season.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
And you mentioned I use season to this point.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
You know, the Minnesota loss not great, but again, you
probably didn't expect to beat Louisville in a neutral court.
You probably didn't expect to go into rep Arena and
beat Kentucky. But if Kentucky can pinch this off, or
if Indiana seem we can pinch this off, this is
already a team that's projected to be in the tournament,
This would be a nice feather in their cap. Certainly
a win you that you would expect to remain as
a quad one win as the season goes onward, and
(23:34):
especially given the way that it looks like the seasons
are trending for the like of Marquette and Kansas State,
you know, maybe the signature win of I use non
con if they're able to pull this off on Saturday.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
So how do you think the team you mentioned you're
going to do some stuff on India and I've before
we got on here and I started to write my
preview which will probably be up at some point on
Friday and inside the hall, how do you kind of
see these teams matching up? I looked at Kentucky's last game.
They kind of started for I want to call Trenton
Noah a guard. I mean they really started four guards
in Malchoim moreno at the five. Is that with the
(24:06):
injury situation, do you can do you expect a similar
kind of line up in terms of what the C Saturday?
Could there be changes? Are guys going to becoming available
that were maybe injured? And then just in terms of
the matchup specifically with IU, how do you feel like
the two teams match up?
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Well, let me start on the Kentucky side, of things.
And one of the issues where that's kind of gone
hand in hand with their slow start is Mark Pope
very much feels like he's still trying to figure out
optimal rotations. You know, there's been calls for him to
shorten the group of guys who are playing. I think
entering the game earlier this week, they had eleven players
who were averaging at least fifteen minutes, which is a
(24:42):
pretty hard thing to do. Again, a lot of this
is predicated on the health of point guard Jalen Low.
He hurt his right shoulder, which is his non shooting shoulder,
during UK's Blue White exhibition game in October, So the
worst thing that can happen in one of those, you know,
just fan fest kind of exhibition, he kind of things.
He really has not come back to full form. He
(25:03):
didn't shoot it super well as a sophomore pit without
a right shoulder injury. This year, he's come off the
bench in four games. He's really the catalyst for their offense.
He offers them a lot of pace, you know, to
a man, UK players have described him as a vocal
leader on this team. Not having him has really hurt
their ceiling at both ends. Of the court, so Pope
has really played around with the lineup. One of the
(25:24):
biggest storylines this year has been a lack of inconsistent
point guard play because some of the name brand guys
on this Kentucky team, otega Oway, Colin Chandler, Denzel Aberdeen
all great in a two or three role, you know,
off ball stuff, none of them a super true point guard.
Jasper Johnson, who's a five star recruit who came in
this year, has had a real up and down year
(25:46):
in terms of his backup point guard role. He scored
twenty two points on Tuesday night. I actually have a
story up this morning about that potentially being a breakthrough,
but obviously the Indian game being a bigger sign of
things to come. Your reference mal Chai Moreno, He's probably
been the standout player of this UK year. Five star
freshmen from just down the road in Georgetown, Kentucky slotted
into their starting five role and been really effective. But
(26:09):
another thing to watch with the Kentucky team and some
of the lineups that Pope puts out there is they
have not shot the ball well from three point range.
They're at thirty two point nine percent for the year
mark that's right around the two hundreds nationally. And this
is a team that in theory likes to get a
lot of threes up, but the volume of threes has
decreased from last year, and last year they were shooting it,
shooting it at nearly thirty seven percent. So they're shooting
(26:32):
it worse from three because they're putting lineups out there
featuring maybe the likes of Diabate and moreno who are
kind of non shooters from deep. That's putting a lot
more stress on the guards. Without their starting point guard,
they're having a very difficult time driving past guys playing
off two feet in the lane, kicking out to teammates,
and the cycle kind of repeats itself, right. So we've
seen some small ball lineups where you mentioned what they
(26:54):
started on Tuesday night, Malachis at the five and Trent Noah,
who's effectively a wing gone kind of players at the four.
They've done some big lineups where they've played two seven
footers who are kind of non shooting personnel at the
four and five. They have an international player from Croatia,
Andreya Yelovich, who hasn't been super consistent from three this year,
despite taking a lot of them, so we're waiting to
(27:16):
see if he has a breakout moment from deep. So
a lot of these roster construction issues are kind of
bearing fruit in some of these high major losses. So
to be completely candid with you, I'm not quite sure
what Pope's gonna do on Saturday.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Again, it feels like he's trying to figure out things
on the fly, giving certain guys rope to play, pulling
it back on others. How much Jalen Low can play
and if he slots back into the starting lineup I
think will be kind of a major indicator of how
this game goes. And from the IU standpoint, you know,
I was kind of analyzing the roster. I watched a
large portion of that Louisville game from this past weekend,
(27:50):
and then Lamar Worklessing goes out and has like the
best shooting night in Assembly Hall history. And this was
already kind of going to be a weak filled with
Lamar Wilkerson discourse because of the transfer portal battle between
Kentucky and Ie for him over the spring when he
transferred from sam Houston State. I'm sure a lot of
people who are listing have seen the photo of him
and Mark Pope with a horse at Keenland during his
(28:12):
UK recruiting visit. So I'm sure that one's gonna come
up on social media this week. But you know, looking
at the game specifically the matchup between Wilkerson and I
think otega Oway, who's going to draw that assignment and
always maybe been the most disappointing player on this Kentucky
team this year just because of the SEC preseason player
of the Year hype that he had. He's really tried
to own up the things developing, being more of a
(28:34):
vocal leader, and he's supposed to be a guy who's
leading by example with defense with his driving ability and
physicality on offense. How always able to handle Wilkerson, or
if he's able to handle Wilkerson, I think will be
a big factor in how this game goes on Saturday
in terms of.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
The other big guys injuries. I mean, is is Diabate
or I know Quaintance is a little bit further away,
but is expected to play on Saturday.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
So the technical term on Diabat is day to day.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Right now, Mark Pope's presser is going to be Friday
at noon, so that's when you'll get the latest update
on that he is dealing with the high endful sprain
that Pope has said includes a torn ligament in his
ankle area, so that's not great. He hasn't played since
the Michigan State game in the Champions Classic back in
early to mid November when he sustained that injury in
the closing minutes of that one, So that means again,
(29:27):
mal Chai Moreno is probably going to continue to shoulder
a big load for Kentucky upfront. You put in Yellovich
for some shooting space or in theory, some shooting gravity.
Brandon Garrison's a fascinating player because he was one of
the four holdovers from Pope's first year, but he's really
regressed so far to this point this year. He got
benched in the North Carolina Central game on Tuesday night
(29:47):
for failing to hustle back after getting ripped on a
turnover on the offensive end. So Kentucky really hasn't gotten
what they've needed from Garrison so far this year. And
Diabate is considered a game changer for Kentucky based on
his physicality, his rebounding prowess, you know, especially in Kentucky's
losses to North Carolina in Gonzaga, a major issue has
been UK's inability to rebound the ball defensively. I think
(30:10):
they're giving up like a thirty three percent offensive rebounding
rate currently. Yabat is a guy who's long been promised
as a physical player who can hit you once, hit
you twice, track the ball whether he's able to go
or not again, I think will be a big marker
in if UK's big men are able to have an
advantage from a size perspective over IU, you know, and
maybe you get some of those perimeter guys using their
(30:32):
foot speed, their relocation tactics to also get some stuff
on the margins. But the big men battle will be
huge in this one as well, assuming Kentucky is at
full strength, and if they're not, that's a huge opening
for IU to maybe take advantage of down low.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
How have they been in terms of guarding the three,
because obviously it's clear Indiana wants to take and make
a lot of three pointers. They've done that in several
games at other games where you know, Minnesota and Louisville
kind of took them off what they wanted to do
in terms of getting up threes. But this is Kentucky,
how's their ball pressure on the perimeter, and in terms
of contesting shots and kind of reacting to Indiana runs
(31:07):
some pretty sophisticated things in terms of try to free
shooters up. So I think they'll be a little bit
better prepared for this opportunity based on what they saw
defensively against Minnesota and Louisville. Louisville was able to really
keep them all balanced to start the game, and then
as the game went along they adjusted better to it.
But you know, Louisville, watching them up close to me,
they felt like a top five, top ten team in
(31:29):
terms of talent and just kind of the way their
their guards were to me pretty elite in terms of
what Indiana will see the rest of the way. So
I'm curious kind of how you see, because I think
the key to slowing Indiana down obviously is getting into
their shooters and making them uncomfortable because they don't really
have necessarily a back to the basket guy that you're
going to throw the ball to in the post and
(31:50):
it's going to hurt you. But they like to get
paint touches and then get the ball out to the
perimeter freezy look, So I'm just curious how you kind
of see them being able to defend that and if
that's something that they're good at.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Well, good news for Indiana fans out there. Let me
read you out the splits right now. So Kentucky has
played four games against top one hundred teams this year.
In the Torvic metrics, all those have been losses. That's
all their high major games. In those four games, UK
is shooting twenty four point three percent from three and
UK's opponents you're shooting thirty nine percent from three. So
that's a huge margin right there. You reference Indiana's desire
(32:26):
to get up and shoot a lot of threes. Obviously,
Wilkerson coming off a game where he was I think
ten to fifteen from three against Penn State. So those
numbers right there should be, you know, having Mark Pope
sweat bullets currently. Right There's been a lot of defensive
issues with this Kentucky team. The latest ones that Pope's
had gripes with have been just their kind of one
two in passing lanes, their help defense, their gap defense,
(32:49):
their ball screen defense, which was a major theme and
a major reason why the defense was so bad for
most of Pope's first season last year has come back
up again and been a constant negative for this team
this year. Ball Screen defense is obviously a major key
to three point defense as well. Right so, based on
the numbers, based on what we've seen against high major opponents,
(33:09):
Indiana should have its chances this game to get the
three pointers off in theory to make them at a
high clip. You know, again, this will be a major
stress test for Kentucky's ball screen defense. Again, a lat
of that maybe you can trace back to Jalen Low
being out, not maybe for his defense specifically. You know,
he's not quite the Lamont Butler type player they had
last year, but the way that's changed, the rotations, the pairings,
(33:31):
having guys kind of play a bit out of position.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
So good news for who's your fans on that front.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
It seems like the opportunity is right there for your
Indiana to at least have the success from three point
range that the North Carolinas, the Michigan States, the Gonzagas
of the world certainly did enjoy as well. You know,
obviously Kentucky will try and make strides in that regard.
You know, we'll see again. I mentioned Jashper Johnson earlier.
He's a real skinny guard six five point eighty, but
(33:57):
he does have some length, you know, ways a physical player.
Aberdeen can be a physical player. Colin Chandler, maybe alongside
Moreno has been another one of the benefits in year
two under Pope, and he's come along offensively, but he's
still trying to find his way defensively. So all that
to say that Indiana, as a team that likes to
shoot the three and likes to shoot a lot of
the three, has to be looking at those three point
(34:19):
shooting splits for Kentucky this year and really liking their
chances of at least playing the style of game that
they want to play at Reparina.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Well, Cameron, thanks for the time. Always good to catch
up with a inside the Hall alum. Do it from
time to time here on the show because so many
of you guys have gone on to have great careers
in sports media. Love to see your success. We do
check in from time to time you me and Dylan
on text and follow your work as closely as I
can from afar, even though I'm not obviously locked into
(34:51):
reading things about Kentucky at this point, but congrats on
your success there and thanks for making the time to
come on the show today, of.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Course, and if I could take a moment to thank
you for everything that you've done for again all the
student interns and writers that you've had down the years
that inside the hall, you know, we were talking off there.
It's funny like so many people, you know. Again, I
lived with Dylan for a year and me and him
are still good friends. I was a groomsman in his wedding.
But even some of the older guys as well, the
Ben Ladner's of the world, where I'm still really good
(35:20):
friends with the seth Tows. You know, every now and
again I'll see a Josh Margolis tweet. You know, I
think he was on the field after I you beat Oregon,
and that always gets me a good chuckle. You know,
only one of one Margolis is, but you know, just
a tremendous opportunity that you gave all of us that
helped obviously launch so many people's like legitimate careers as
a professional salary with healthcare sports reporter. So we can't
(35:42):
thank you enough.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
On our end field, well, I usually don't do too
much but provide the platform. You guys do all the
hard work and it's it's a lot of fun. And
I mean you and you and Dylan were early adopters
of Tyler Tashman, right, I mean you you bought you
had the first stock in him. And look at Tyler,
I like to give him a hard time, but he's
gone on to do great things covering Iowa now And
(36:06):
it's just a lot of some of my closest friends,
I mean are people that wrote Friends with the whole
before your time that I still keep in touch with,
and still keep in touch with Tyler pretty often too.
So just it's a lot of fun. I think what
we're able to do, you know, with obviously me not
living in Bloomington, it's a great opportunity for kind of
students to kind of take the reins on the day
(36:26):
to day on the ground coverage, get to travel to games,
get to do different things. I mean, we've had a
great experience this year with covering football for the first time.
Josh pos has really kind of taken that opportunity and
run with it. And obviously it's not going to be
a thirteen and o season for every student that comes
in the future to cover IWU football will see how
it continues to go in the future. But it's been
a lot of fun, and yeah, I appreciate you saying that,
(36:48):
but you know, it's it's the hard work that all
you guys have done, and it's it's rewarding for me
to see the success. I mean, there's others I can
name him and Graycie Barrow is doing great work now.
Duram is now doing his thing covering Louisville and on
the radio network there. I mean Matt Press last year
(37:09):
now at the Pittsburgh Post Gazette, Will Foley, Kevin Vera.
You know, all these guys are going on to do
good things and it's been a lot of fun just
to be a part of it and give everyone a
platform to do the work. So I appreciate you saying that.
Thanks everybody as always for listening to the show. As
I said at the top, if you enjoy the show
on YouTube, like the video, subscriber to the channel really
(37:29):
helps uscrow our numbers as we're on our way slowly
to ten thousand subscribers, but we'll get there eventually. Also
leave us a rating and review over on Apple Podcasts
at Spotify, and we'll be back soon with another episode
of podcast on the brain,
Welcome back to a new episode of Podcasts on the
Brink Thursday, December eleventh. Big basketball game coming up this weekend.
Indiana Basketball will be in Lexington, Kentucky to take on
the University of Kentucky, who is off to a bit
of a shaky start this season under second year coach
(00:38):
Mark Pope. To help us talk a little bit about
Kentucky's early season struggles and also look forward to the matchup.
Cameron Drummond, old friend now the Lexington Herald Leader one
time was a student reporter for Inside the Halls with
us on Podcast on the Brink. Before we get to Cameron,
I wanted to just take a quick moment remind you
(00:58):
if you're watching the show on YouTube, like the video,
subscribe to the channel. Really helps us grow our reach there.
You enjoy the show on Apple Podcasts Spotify. Leave was
a five star rating and review. Always appreciate all the
support there. Thank you for that. Cameron, welcome back. You
had an abrupt ending to your time and Inside the
(01:18):
Hall because of the pandemic. I remember still remember it.
You know people you know ask me some of the
moments that stand out. Been doing this now since two
thousand and seven. I still think about this from time
to time. You and Dylan Wallace at the Big Ten
Tournament in twenty twenty. It looked like Indiana was going
to break through there and make it to the NCAA tournament.
(01:42):
You guys were finally going to get to cover the tournament,
and then all of a sudden everything is shut down.
You were I think in the aftermath of that, you
and Dylan were like helping me grind like Q and
a's with former IU players and all time IU player
bracket things like that, just to kind of keep the
conversation going because there were no games. But it's come
(02:03):
a long way in those what it will be six
years in March. Things much more normal now. But what
do you remember about that that time in that day.
I remember seeing Fred Hoiber looking ill on the bench
in that game, and there's a lot of concern that
and then all of a sudden it was just Big
To tournament was over.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
You know, there's certain things that like I don't think
about a ton from my time at IU or covering
IU basketball, just because I've been on the Kentucky beat
for a few years. And you mean, you know this
as well as anyone news comes left, right and center.
Things just get pushed to the recess of your brain.
But hearing you described kind of the parameters of that,
I remember everything about that day because there was Indiana
(02:43):
and Nebraska in the eight twelve game or ten the
eleven fourteen games, something like that. Basically, Indiana needed a
win to lock up that tournament spot, and I guess
what ended up being Archie's penultimate year in charge, they
crushed them, and Nebraska played like two on football players
in the game because they didn't have enough scholarship basketball guys.
(03:04):
Fred Hoiberg, who ended up just having the flu is
like sick on the bench. Me and Dylan Wallace you mentioned,
my former roommate and fellow inside the Hall intern. We're
sitting courtside at Banker's Life. Also during that game is
when Rudy Gobert comes back positive for COVID. So the
NBA shuts down and they canceled that game in Oklahoma City,
and I remember postgame, you know, they really rushed through
(03:27):
postgame press conferences at Banker's Life and we were basically
sequestered on the Pacers practice court, which is where they
had a big ten tournament. Like podium media sessions. We
all had to chill out there for like an hour
or two because everyone thought Fred Hoiberg had COVID. Nobody
knew how it spread any of that stuff. And one
of the things, actually one of my biggest regrets from
(03:47):
my time at inside the Hall is that night we
drove back from India to Bloomington, we weren't sure really
what was going to happen with the world. Obviously we
know everything got canceled from that point onward. But I
stayed up until like three am, and I wrote a
story because I was sitting right behind the Indiana bench
the entire game.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
So I wrote a.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Story that laid out exactly what Archie Miller said, did
bench interactions, yelling at the ref, talking with you know,
probably Bruiser Flint and tom O'strummer, whoever the assistants were,
and it was I thought it was pretty good, or
at least my like twenty one year old brain thought
this is a killer story. And it just remained in
my Google docs the entire time because it didn't feel
(04:25):
like a good time to post it when the world
was that ding, So that one never saw the light
of day. So I'm still disappointed I didn't force that
one through, especially when we were starved for content.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
You know, IU doesn't play from December twenty second through
January fourth, so maybe we can fit that one in
after Christmas. Just kind of look back at the story
that was never told by Cam drummen. Just just kidding.
So you you graduated, obviously, and then went to Austin
for I think you told me eleven months to cover
(04:54):
community news down in Austin, Texas, a good maybe break
from the sports world there after covering pretty depressing time
in IU basketball. For the amount of years you did
in other IU sports too, there wasn't just a lot
of good sports. But then get the opportunity to go
to Lexington cover UK women's basketball. I believe it first.
And now you're the secondary on UK men's basketball. What's
(05:18):
it just been like just adjusting to You've been there
now for what more than four years? But what's what's
it been like just covering those programs and what's your
time on Lexington been like so far?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Well, let me start by saying, my time in Lexington
has been tremendous. I was telling you off fare that
I was actually in Bloomington, Indiana, visiting friends. I want
to say it was maybe around the graduation period for
that twenty twenty one class, and I would just out
of the blue got an email from the former sports
editor here at the Lexington Herald Leader, Matt Groff, asking
if I'd be interested in covering UK women's basketball or
(05:54):
joining the sports staff here at large, and I told
him I'd never been to Lexington, Kentucky before.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
The only thing I knew about it is that UK
was situated here.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
But I was up for an adventure and so that
could have gone really poorly if I like didn't like
the city and everything that came with the job. But
it's been a tremendous few years and you reference, you know,
I started off on the UK women's basketball beat. I
actually got to cover the senior year of Ryan Howard,
who went on to be the one number one overall
pick in the twenty twenty two WNBA draft. I actually
(06:23):
was in Indiana twice of the first year I covered
the UK women's basketball team, because they played at Indiana
in the regular season, lost by like thirty, then returned
to Indiana as their NCAA tournament site, and it was
kind of billed as of maybe a big rematch between
them and Terry Moorin's IU squad, and then UK lost
to Princeton in the first round, So continued the streak
(06:43):
of if I'm around a program in the postseason, it's
usually going to go poorly for them. But you know,
you reference kind of obviously this is a tremendous, you know,
spectacle in the state of Kentucky. Like Kentucky basketball very
much like Indiana basketball is something that the passion throughout
the state, not just in Central Kentucky, you know, really
on a national scale as well, especially given what John
(07:04):
Calipari did, you know, kind of the turn of the
oughts to the twenty tens with all the freshmen in
the one and done's, Like, the leadership we get is tremendous.
You know, eighteen twenty thousand people at RUP Arena, where
there's fireworks going off before games. You know, we were
talking off air, and I'm sure we'll get into it
in the podcast, but the resources that they dedicate to
(07:26):
the UK men's basketball program as well, the scrutiny that
Calipari toward the end of his tenure, Mark Pope's gotten,
especially this season, you know, it really is a pressure cooker,
a fish bowl kind of environment. And I will say
as well that I think I was sitting in a
coffee shop here in Lexington. I want to say in
twenty twenty three when the series was announced the renewal
(07:46):
of the IU UK rivalry, you know, back when Calipari
and Mike Woodson were the head coaches to people who
notably are no longer here. But one of my first
thoughts after writing up the news release was, man, I
wonder if I may get on podcast on the Brink
again when that game rolls around.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
So I'm happy to have a few years on.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah, it's I think it's a good thing that the
game's coming back. It's been far too long. Obviously, it's
the first time since the December tenth, twenty eleven game
in Bloomington that they played a regular season game, or
I think a lot of that obviously was because cal
Perry didn't want to come to Bloomington again and Indiana
was not necessarily open to neutral court games. Kind of
(08:27):
had a bit of a compromise with this series with
the four game deal where they're going to play two
in Lexington one and Indy one in Bloomington. Don't love
that set up from an IU perspective to give in
that much, but I think that's what it took to
get it done. And then, obviously, as you mentioned, the
coaches that agreed to the deal no longer in place,
So I do think for the long term, both programs
(08:49):
probably in healthier positions. Just in terms of the coaching
changes you mentioned cal Perry, you know, it seemed like
his time had really come to an end there, just
based on a lot of different factors. And obviously with
Indiana Mike Woodson, I think a lot of people thought
maybe after year three that it was time for him
to go, and he stayed that extra year and things
(09:10):
didn't go well and his tenure. But this Kentucky team,
you mentioned the reported twenty two million dollar INIL payroll
whatever you want to call it, for this group, that
was obviously something that was you know, I saw it
aggregated various places in the preseason, but you told me
that the Herald Leader was the one that actually reported
(09:31):
that figure. How has that impacted the way that the
fan base looks at this team in terms of just
the performance so far, because it seems to me, and
this is again I've told you I've only watched really
part of the Gonzaga game, not watch the team play,
but I see some of the stuff on social media.
(09:54):
It seems to me that people are kind of throwing
that number out when it's can in terms of criticizing
Mark Pope and saying that he's not done a good
job with this team. And I'm just curious how that
kind of how that number is maybe kind of weighed
on the start that they've had so far.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Certainly.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah, and let me just start by saying that if
anyone has any interest in any of our Kentucky preview content,
please go over to Kentucky dot com and Kentucky dot
com slash sports. We have a really good men's basketball
staff led by my kind of senior colleague, Ben Roberts,
who was the first to get that twenty two million
dollar number out there. And we have a ton of
stuff this week leading up to the IU game, even
some Indiana focused stuff that I'm taking a crack at
(10:34):
my expert knowledge of both the both teams that I
think people will enjoy. But you mentioned the twenty two
million dollar number. Obviously that was something that came out,
you know, September ish. I think is when we reported it,
you know, kind of in the lead up to the season.
You combine that with defeating Purdue, then the number one
team in the country in their first exhibition game, and
that those two factors I think really rashed up expectations
(10:58):
for this team, which were already high. I think a
lot of people remember Mark Pope's introductory press conference some
eighteen months ago where he's yelling about raising banner number
nine and that national championships and final fours are really
the only standard that matters at Kentucky.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
The fan base ran with that obviously.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Last year they were hindered a bit by injuries and
some on the fly roster construction, but they showed a
lot of promising play. They played a really beautiful brand
of basketball that was predicated on cutting three point shots,
free flowing offense. They had a ton of seniors, fifth
year grad transfer guys who really made that gel and
it was a pretty likable team to kind of fall
(11:34):
in love with from a fan based perspective. Stylistically, all
those things entering this season, as I was telling you
off air, Mark Pope really kind of changed the roster construction,
or at least based on historically what he did both
during his first year at Kentucky in his previous stops
at Utah Valley and BYU, he went a lot more physical,
a lot more defense.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
First.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
You know a lot of these guys that they targeted
in the portal, the likes of Jaden Quainton's, who is
their top transfer from Arizona State, who hasn't even played
yet this year because he's recovering from a torn acl
but other guys as well. You know, I'm thinking about
Mohammed Diabate from Alabama, Denzel Aberdeen, who was the sixth
man on last year's Florida National Championship squad. You know,
even otega Oway, who was the preseason SEC Player of
(12:18):
the Year. It was a little bit less offensive skill
and a little bit more like physicality, grittiness defense, because
that was an area that Kentucky struggled in last year.
So far this regular season, they've gotten none of that
defensive trade off, and their offensive ceiling has seemingly shrunk.
Feels like a case where maybe they brought in a
lot of pieces that don't necessarily fit the coaches playing
(12:41):
style or philosophy super well, and then the result of
that has been in zero to four record in high
major games. You know, you lose a rivalry matchup to Louisville,
they hadn't lost in several years. You go down by
north of twenty points at one point, you know, in
the Cardinals gym at the Young Center, you get blown
up by Michigan State. In the Champions Classic, you lose
(13:01):
what was an eminently winnable game against North Carolina where
Kentucky kind of choked a bit down the stretch and
I think missed thirteen or their final fifteen shots in
a really lively rap arena. And then you reference the
game that you watch part of that Gonzaga embarrassment where
that Nashville crowd booed the Wildcats off the court like
nothing too many people have ever seen before. So the
(13:22):
twenty two million dollar number to go back to that
obviously plays a role. You know, I think a lot
of members of the fan base feel that that's currently
not money well spent or money that cope and just
the roster building folks have kind of mismanaged. I will
say some of that is a little bit misleading, only
from the standpoint of a large chunk of those deals
and that monetary payout came before the true summer house
(13:45):
settlement regulations came in, so you know, you can look
at it from more so players that Pope identified to
maybe give some more money on the front end, while
you know, maybe taking a longer term approach, like hey,
if we give you a little bit more here, committing
you to stay for an extra year or two, or
just you know, looking at not just from the pure
twenty two million dollars for one season lens. All that
(14:07):
being said, I think a lot of people in the
fan base are very dubious, shall we say, about this
team's roster construction, how they fit in together. You know,
if there's enough offensive production. If there's one, go get
a bucket guy on this team. And there's also been
a ton of questions recently about just basic tent pole
things like energy, effort, hustle. We had Kentucky's starting center
(14:29):
at the beginning of the year, Brandon Garrison getting benched
during the wildcats last game against North Carolina Central on
Tuesday night for a lack of hustle.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
You had one of the.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Transfer editions, Cam Williams, not checking in until there were
thirteen minutes to go in the game. I think you
referenced injuries earlier too. Mohammed Diabate has been out with
a high ankle sprain. Their projective starting point guard, jail
and Low, actually hasn't started a game yet this year
because he's hurt his right shoulder for the last two
or so months. So a combination of a ton of factors,
(14:59):
but it's all leading to some really intense scrutiny of
Mark Pope his roster building approach for this season, and
you know, plain and simple, the allocation of resources for
a team that on December eleventh, as we record on
Thursday morning, still doesn't have a high major win and
could really be staring down the barrel of things if
they losed Indiana this weekend and Saint John's next weekend
before SEC play begins.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, so I understand the you know, you mentioned fish
Bowl and scrutiny and everything. Is it and you'll never
I think there's it's probably impossible to rationalize with some
Kentucky fans ever about the program and what it should be.
But do you think the do you think it's a
little overboard in terms of what the reaction has been
so far based on the fact that Hope did go
(15:44):
to the Sweet sixteen last year, had a really solid
first year. He seems to do everything kind of the
right way, just in terms of how he presents himself.
He always takes responsibility. It feels like for losses when
things go bad and there's still a lot of season left,
I mean, the season's clearly not over. There's gonna be
a ton of opportunities. You mentioned the Indiana game, you
mentioned the Saint John's game. There's gonna be eighteen sec games.
(16:07):
It just feels to me and in some ways, you know,
I think Indiana can be this way too, that sometimes
every loss is every win is expected, and every loss
is magnified to the point where it just becomes sometimes
the negativity is hard for a coach and players to
operate in. Is that is that kind of the Is that?
(16:29):
Is that a fair way to put this? And do
you feel like the scrutiny sometimes is maybe a little
bit too high on on this on this team?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Well, certainly from like a potential coaching Chaine standpoint, we
are eons away from that. I don't think there's any
world short of anything off the court occurring, which there's
no semblance of Mark Pope not returning as UK's coach
next season. I do think even some of this fan
anger is maybe built up from the tail end of
last season. You know, Kentucky's defense was really porous. You know,
(16:58):
they kind of had an improvement toward the end of
SEC play going into the tournament, but still, this is
a team that lost its SEC tournament game by nearly
thirty points in the quarterfinals to Alabama, your reference going
back to the Sweet sixteen for the first time since
twenty nineteen. But then in the Sweet sixteen, which they
played at Lucas Oil up in Indy, lose to a
Tennessee team that you had already beaten two times earlier
(17:20):
in the season, which a lot of people you know,
kind of really earmarked is a pretty golden chance to
get to the Elite eight, I believe, also for the
first time since twenty nineteen. And obviously a lot of
this is you know, kind of fan angst and anxiety,
and that's always going to get blown out of proportion
at a place like Kentucky. I do think the manner
of their defeats have really driven a lot of this
as well, because again, this is not like they've lost
(17:42):
four coin flip games against name brand opponents. They've gotten
absolutely boat raced in three of them. I think a
lot of people have the jury still out on how
good North Carolina is and losing you know, a blue
blood premier game at home like that when they had
the game won several times over isn't going to sit
well with folks. You know, people are probably very much
(18:03):
like kind of still jumpy and reactionary. Again because you know,
Kentucky basketball. Pope comes in preaching the standard of banners
and final fours the north of twenty million dollars anil figure,
and then starting off oho and four in high major games.
The way that they've played, I'm sure is unacceptable in
a lot of people's viewpoints. I think now Pope is
something like two and nine in his last eleven games
(18:24):
against ranked teams, which isn't going to help people. And again,
some of the things I've referenced earlier, like Mark Pope
was really mad postgame Tuesday after they clobbered North Carolina
Central talking about how there's a standard that the players
need to live up to that they're not currently reaching.
That you know, there's basic kind of requisite things like
giving the right energy, hustling back after a turnover, playing
(18:46):
off two feet and trying to make plays for your teammates.
He even talked about how this team doesn't truly know
what it means to compete yet, and he described that
as terrifying. You know, again, we're here on December eleventh,
after an off season where anybody who watch the UK
practice was willing to tell media members how competitive and
feisty and you know, tenacious they are. Yet this is
(19:07):
a team that seemingly just doesn't gel on the court,
or at least hasn't to this point. And obviously that
spins off into a million different message board rumors, right.
I mean, we've heard everything from off the court stuff
involving players, to this team doesn't really like each other,
to this team you know, is fighting in pregame meetings,
in the locker room, you know, some outlandish things that
(19:29):
you know, for the most part, is not true. And
then Pope's also had some pr blunders as well, and
I think that kind of goes into why the fan
base has been particularly disappointed in him this season. As
you mentioned, he does a lot of things the right way.
At his best, He's a very engaging personality. He'll dive
into the basketball X and o's all day, but at
his worst, like if anybody saw him post that Michigan
(19:50):
State game at Madison Square Garden, he is he takes
losing really hard, so he'll go up there at the
postgame press conference and he'll mumble out some words and
just maybe not be the most engaging, confident, gregarious presence.
And for the last fifteen years before that, you got
nothing but that, you know, with John Caliperi, in the
best of times and in the worst of times. So
that's been adjustment, and you know that leads to you
(20:12):
know again people on message boards being mad that Pope
isn't getting angry in the huddles and that he's not,
you know, projecting this bombastic presence that people usually look
for from the Kentucky basketball coach. He did break a
clipboard over his knee in that North Carolina Central game
on Tuesday night, which is just about the angriest I've
ever seen him in any setting. So maybe that tide
(20:33):
is starting to change. But I think all those factors
are kind of co mingling in a way where the
fan base is overreacting in the overall about Pope's tenure,
but specifically within like the micro of this season, why
they're so desperate for a win, like the opportunity will
come for on Saturday.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, so it feels like a big game for Indiana,
but it's not a game. I don't think before the
season that you would look at the schedule, you know.
I looked at the schedule before the year in turn,
like leading to the Washington game, which is the first
game after this long break after Christmas, and I thought,
if they could get there with only two losses, they'd
been doing pretty well for themselves. Well, they have two
losses now, and the Minnesota game was the game where
(21:13):
I think people were a little perplexed they lost. I
don't think anyone in the preseason would expected them to
beat Louisville and North Misial Court. And I don't think
anyone expected them to go into Rept. Breen and win Steels.
Is obviously a little bit more possible now, just kind
of based on how Kentucky's played so far. But is
this a much bigger game for Kentucky than it is
Indiana at this point?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I think that's fair to say, because again, looking at
the UK schedule, they get Indiana on Saturday.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
After that they go to st.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
They play a neutral syde game in Atlanta against Saint John's,
and the whole tenor of that game completely changed with
Kentucky's slow start to the year, because before that's Rick Patino,
who was the head coach of UK's ninety six title
team that Mark Pope was a captain on. They finally
got this game on the schedule, you know, a four.
Patino finally exits college basketball may be or maybe whole
(22:00):
coach to be one hundred and fifty, who knows, And
then they play another Cupcake. They get Bellerman right after
that Saint John's game, and after that it's only SEC play,
and all of a sudden, this looks like a bit
of a down year for the SEC, or at least
certainly not the heights that it was at last year
when they got fourteen of the league sixteen schools into
the tournament. You start as a CE play at Alabama.
(22:20):
That's probably not going to go well for this Kentucky
team if they keep playing that the way that they are,
And so all of a sudden, you know, you get
off to an oh and one star and SEC play
you're potentially and seven at high major games at that point, you.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Know, some of the other off court stuff as well.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Has been a lot of scrutiny about Kentucky's NIL procedures,
not just in the context of this season, but in
the aggregate. They still don't have a true high school
commitment from the twenty twenty sixth class, despite being rumored
with several five star prospects from that group, so that
stop people on edge as well. It does feel like
the season's on a little bit of a knife edge.
(22:57):
The season might be on the brink. Some people are
saying to borrow a line. So it's crazy to think about.
But this game actually matters a ton for Kentucky, way
more than I would have expected to begin this season.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
And you mentioned I use season to this point.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
You know, the Minnesota loss not great, but again, you
probably didn't expect to beat Louisville in a neutral court.
You probably didn't expect to go into rep Arena and
beat Kentucky. But if Kentucky can pinch this off, or
if Indiana seem we can pinch this off, this is
already a team that's projected to be in the tournament,
This would be a nice feather in their cap. Certainly
a win you that you would expect to remain as
a quad one win as the season goes onward, and
(23:34):
especially given the way that it looks like the seasons
are trending for the like of Marquette and Kansas State,
you know, maybe the signature win of I use non
con if they're able to pull this off on Saturday.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
So how do you think the team you mentioned you're
going to do some stuff on India and I've before
we got on here and I started to write my
preview which will probably be up at some point on
Friday and inside the hall, how do you kind of
see these teams matching up? I looked at Kentucky's last game.
They kind of started for I want to call Trenton
Noah a guard. I mean they really started four guards
in Malchoim moreno at the five. Is that with the
(24:06):
injury situation, do you can do you expect a similar
kind of line up in terms of what the C Saturday?
Could there be changes? Are guys going to becoming available
that were maybe injured? And then just in terms of
the matchup specifically with IU, how do you feel like
the two teams match up?
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Well, let me start on the Kentucky side, of things.
And one of the issues where that's kind of gone
hand in hand with their slow start is Mark Pope
very much feels like he's still trying to figure out
optimal rotations. You know, there's been calls for him to
shorten the group of guys who are playing. I think
entering the game earlier this week, they had eleven players
who were averaging at least fifteen minutes, which is a
(24:42):
pretty hard thing to do. Again, a lot of this
is predicated on the health of point guard Jalen Low.
He hurt his right shoulder, which is his non shooting shoulder,
during UK's Blue White exhibition game in October, So the
worst thing that can happen in one of those, you know,
just fan fest kind of exhibition, he kind of things.
He really has not come back to full form. He
(25:03):
didn't shoot it super well as a sophomore pit without
a right shoulder injury. This year, he's come off the
bench in four games. He's really the catalyst for their offense.
He offers them a lot of pace, you know, to
a man, UK players have described him as a vocal
leader on this team. Not having him has really hurt
their ceiling at both ends. Of the court, so Pope
has really played around with the lineup. One of the
(25:24):
biggest storylines this year has been a lack of inconsistent
point guard play because some of the name brand guys
on this Kentucky team, otega Oway, Colin Chandler, Denzel Aberdeen
all great in a two or three role, you know,
off ball stuff, none of them a super true point guard.
Jasper Johnson, who's a five star recruit who came in
this year, has had a real up and down year
(25:46):
in terms of his backup point guard role. He scored
twenty two points on Tuesday night. I actually have a
story up this morning about that potentially being a breakthrough,
but obviously the Indian game being a bigger sign of
things to come. Your reference mal Chai Moreno, He's probably
been the standout player of this UK year. Five star
freshmen from just down the road in Georgetown, Kentucky slotted
into their starting five role and been really effective. But
(26:09):
another thing to watch with the Kentucky team and some
of the lineups that Pope puts out there is they
have not shot the ball well from three point range.
They're at thirty two point nine percent for the year
mark that's right around the two hundreds nationally. And this
is a team that in theory likes to get a
lot of threes up, but the volume of threes has
decreased from last year, and last year they were shooting it,
shooting it at nearly thirty seven percent. So they're shooting
(26:32):
it worse from three because they're putting lineups out there
featuring maybe the likes of Diabate and moreno who are
kind of non shooters from deep. That's putting a lot
more stress on the guards. Without their starting point guard,
they're having a very difficult time driving past guys playing
off two feet in the lane, kicking out to teammates,
and the cycle kind of repeats itself, right. So we've
seen some small ball lineups where you mentioned what they
(26:54):
started on Tuesday night, Malachis at the five and Trent Noah,
who's effectively a wing gone kind of players at the four.
They've done some big lineups where they've played two seven
footers who are kind of non shooting personnel at the
four and five. They have an international player from Croatia,
Andreya Yelovich, who hasn't been super consistent from three this year,
despite taking a lot of them, so we're waiting to
(27:16):
see if he has a breakout moment from deep. So
a lot of these roster construction issues are kind of
bearing fruit in some of these high major losses. So
to be completely candid with you, I'm not quite sure
what Pope's gonna do on Saturday.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Again, it feels like he's trying to figure out things
on the fly, giving certain guys rope to play, pulling
it back on others. How much Jalen Low can play
and if he slots back into the starting lineup I
think will be kind of a major indicator of how
this game goes. And from the IU standpoint, you know,
I was kind of analyzing the roster. I watched a
large portion of that Louisville game from this past weekend,
(27:50):
and then Lamar Worklessing goes out and has like the
best shooting night in Assembly Hall history. And this was
already kind of going to be a weak filled with
Lamar Wilkerson discourse because of the transfer portal battle between
Kentucky and Ie for him over the spring when he
transferred from sam Houston State. I'm sure a lot of
people who are listing have seen the photo of him
and Mark Pope with a horse at Keenland during his
(28:12):
UK recruiting visit. So I'm sure that one's gonna come
up on social media this week. But you know, looking
at the game specifically the matchup between Wilkerson and I
think otega Oway, who's going to draw that assignment and
always maybe been the most disappointing player on this Kentucky
team this year just because of the SEC preseason player
of the Year hype that he had. He's really tried
to own up the things developing, being more of a
(28:34):
vocal leader, and he's supposed to be a guy who's
leading by example with defense with his driving ability and
physicality on offense. How always able to handle Wilkerson, or
if he's able to handle Wilkerson, I think will be
a big factor in how this game goes on Saturday
in terms of.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
The other big guys injuries. I mean, is is Diabate
or I know Quaintance is a little bit further away,
but is expected to play on Saturday.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
So the technical term on Diabat is day to day.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Right now, Mark Pope's presser is going to be Friday
at noon, so that's when you'll get the latest update
on that he is dealing with the high endful sprain
that Pope has said includes a torn ligament in his
ankle area, so that's not great. He hasn't played since
the Michigan State game in the Champions Classic back in
early to mid November when he sustained that injury in
the closing minutes of that one, So that means again,
(29:27):
mal Chai Moreno is probably going to continue to shoulder
a big load for Kentucky upfront. You put in Yellovich
for some shooting space or in theory, some shooting gravity.
Brandon Garrison's a fascinating player because he was one of
the four holdovers from Pope's first year, but he's really
regressed so far to this point this year. He got
benched in the North Carolina Central game on Tuesday night
(29:47):
for failing to hustle back after getting ripped on a
turnover on the offensive end. So Kentucky really hasn't gotten
what they've needed from Garrison so far this year. And
Diabate is considered a game changer for Kentucky based on
his physicality, his rebounding prowess, you know, especially in Kentucky's
losses to North Carolina in Gonzaga, a major issue has
been UK's inability to rebound the ball defensively. I think
(30:10):
they're giving up like a thirty three percent offensive rebounding
rate currently. Yabat is a guy who's long been promised
as a physical player who can hit you once, hit
you twice, track the ball whether he's able to go
or not again, I think will be a big marker
in if UK's big men are able to have an
advantage from a size perspective over IU, you know, and
maybe you get some of those perimeter guys using their
(30:32):
foot speed, their relocation tactics to also get some stuff
on the margins. But the big men battle will be
huge in this one as well, assuming Kentucky is at
full strength, and if they're not, that's a huge opening
for IU to maybe take advantage of down low.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
How have they been in terms of guarding the three,
because obviously it's clear Indiana wants to take and make
a lot of three pointers. They've done that in several
games at other games where you know, Minnesota and Louisville
kind of took them off what they wanted to do
in terms of getting up threes. But this is Kentucky,
how's their ball pressure on the perimeter, and in terms
of contesting shots and kind of reacting to Indiana runs
(31:07):
some pretty sophisticated things in terms of try to free
shooters up. So I think they'll be a little bit
better prepared for this opportunity based on what they saw
defensively against Minnesota and Louisville. Louisville was able to really
keep them all balanced to start the game, and then
as the game went along they adjusted better to it.
But you know, Louisville, watching them up close to me,
they felt like a top five, top ten team in
(31:29):
terms of talent and just kind of the way their
their guards were to me pretty elite in terms of
what Indiana will see the rest of the way. So
I'm curious kind of how you see, because I think
the key to slowing Indiana down obviously is getting into
their shooters and making them uncomfortable because they don't really
have necessarily a back to the basket guy that you're
going to throw the ball to in the post and
(31:50):
it's going to hurt you. But they like to get
paint touches and then get the ball out to the
perimeter freezy look, So I'm just curious how you kind
of see them being able to defend that and if
that's something that they're good at.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Well, good news for Indiana fans out there. Let me
read you out the splits right now. So Kentucky has
played four games against top one hundred teams this year.
In the Torvic metrics, all those have been losses. That's
all their high major games. In those four games, UK
is shooting twenty four point three percent from three and
UK's opponents you're shooting thirty nine percent from three. So
that's a huge margin right there. You reference Indiana's desire
(32:26):
to get up and shoot a lot of threes. Obviously,
Wilkerson coming off a game where he was I think
ten to fifteen from three against Penn State. So those
numbers right there should be, you know, having Mark Pope
sweat bullets currently. Right There's been a lot of defensive
issues with this Kentucky team. The latest ones that Pope's
had gripes with have been just their kind of one
two in passing lanes, their help defense, their gap defense,
(32:49):
their ball screen defense, which was a major theme and
a major reason why the defense was so bad for
most of Pope's first season last year has come back
up again and been a constant negative for this team
this year. Ball Screen defense is obviously a major key
to three point defense as well. Right so, based on
the numbers, based on what we've seen against high major opponents,
(33:09):
Indiana should have its chances this game to get the
three pointers off in theory to make them at a
high clip. You know, again, this will be a major
stress test for Kentucky's ball screen defense. Again, a lat
of that maybe you can trace back to Jalen Low
being out, not maybe for his defense specifically. You know,
he's not quite the Lamont Butler type player they had
last year, but the way that's changed, the rotations, the pairings,
(33:31):
having guys kind of play a bit out of position.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
So good news for who's your fans on that front.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
It seems like the opportunity is right there for your
Indiana to at least have the success from three point
range that the North Carolinas, the Michigan States, the Gonzagas
of the world certainly did enjoy as well. You know,
obviously Kentucky will try and make strides in that regard.
You know, we'll see again. I mentioned Jashper Johnson earlier.
He's a real skinny guard six five point eighty, but
(33:57):
he does have some length, you know, ways a physical player.
Aberdeen can be a physical player. Colin Chandler, maybe alongside
Moreno has been another one of the benefits in year
two under Pope, and he's come along offensively, but he's
still trying to find his way defensively. So all that
to say that Indiana, as a team that likes to
shoot the three and likes to shoot a lot of
the three, has to be looking at those three point
(34:19):
shooting splits for Kentucky this year and really liking their
chances of at least playing the style of game that
they want to play at Reparina.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
Well, Cameron, thanks for the time. Always good to catch
up with a inside the Hall alum. Do it from
time to time here on the show because so many
of you guys have gone on to have great careers
in sports media. Love to see your success. We do
check in from time to time you me and Dylan
on text and follow your work as closely as I
can from afar, even though I'm not obviously locked into
(34:51):
reading things about Kentucky at this point, but congrats on
your success there and thanks for making the time to
come on the show today, of.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Course, and if I could take a moment to thank
you for everything that you've done for again all the
student interns and writers that you've had down the years
that inside the hall, you know, we were talking off there.
It's funny like so many people, you know. Again, I
lived with Dylan for a year and me and him
are still good friends. I was a groomsman in his wedding.
But even some of the older guys as well, the
Ben Ladner's of the world, where I'm still really good
(35:20):
friends with the seth Tows. You know, every now and
again I'll see a Josh Margolis tweet. You know, I
think he was on the field after I you beat Oregon,
and that always gets me a good chuckle. You know,
only one of one Margolis is, but you know, just
a tremendous opportunity that you gave all of us that
helped obviously launch so many people's like legitimate careers as
a professional salary with healthcare sports reporter. So we can't
(35:42):
thank you enough.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
On our end field, well, I usually don't do too
much but provide the platform. You guys do all the
hard work and it's it's a lot of fun. And
I mean you and you and Dylan were early adopters
of Tyler Tashman, right, I mean you you bought you
had the first stock in him. And look at Tyler,
I like to give him a hard time, but he's
gone on to do great things covering Iowa now And
(36:06):
it's just a lot of some of my closest friends,
I mean are people that wrote Friends with the whole
before your time that I still keep in touch with,
and still keep in touch with Tyler pretty often too.
So just it's a lot of fun. I think what
we're able to do, you know, with obviously me not
living in Bloomington, it's a great opportunity for kind of
students to kind of take the reins on the day
(36:26):
to day on the ground coverage, get to travel to games,
get to do different things. I mean, we've had a
great experience this year with covering football for the first time.
Josh pos has really kind of taken that opportunity and
run with it. And obviously it's not going to be
a thirteen and o season for every student that comes
in the future to cover IWU football will see how
it continues to go in the future. But it's been
a lot of fun, and yeah, I appreciate you saying that,
(36:48):
but you know, it's it's the hard work that all
you guys have done, and it's it's rewarding for me
to see the success. I mean, there's others I can
name him and Graycie Barrow is doing great work now.
Duram is now doing his thing covering Louisville and on
the radio network there. I mean Matt Press last year
(37:09):
now at the Pittsburgh Post Gazette, Will Foley, Kevin Vera.
You know, all these guys are going on to do
good things and it's been a lot of fun just
to be a part of it and give everyone a
platform to do the work. So I appreciate you saying that.
Thanks everybody as always for listening to the show. As
I said at the top, if you enjoy the show
on YouTube, like the video, subscriber to the channel really
(37:29):
helps uscrow our numbers as we're on our way slowly
to ten thousand subscribers, but we'll get there eventually. Also
leave us a rating and review over on Apple Podcasts
at Spotify, and we'll be back soon with another episode
of podcast on the brain,
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