PCJ Book Club: 'Sunrise on the Reaping' by Suzanne Collins

Olivia and Shauna take a deep dive into Suzanne Collins' new book Sunrise on the Reaping. Set before the events of her Hunger Games trilogy, Sunrise on the Reaping is the story of young Haymitch Abernathy. The Junkies look at the book's origins, the philosophers who inspired the author, and how its themes of resistance, individual agency, controlling the narrative, and the use of propaganda inform the author's message. There will be some spoilers in the second segment of the show, if you haven't read the book. Olivia and Shauna also discuss who is rumored to star in the movie based on the book - and who should be cast instead.Follow Shauna Trinidad and Olivia Rodi on GoodReads and find out what else they are reading now!

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
♪ Entertain me, entertain me right now ♪

(00:03):
Welcome to the Pop Culture Junkie podcast.
I'm Olivia and I'm here with Shauna.
And we are so excited to go into the world of Pan M today
with another episode of our Pop Culture Junkie Book Club.
This time we're gonna be looking at sunrise
on the reaping by Suzanne Collins,

(00:23):
which came out in the last month or so.
And before we really had deep into the book
of sunrise on the reaping itself,
we wanna do a little bit of a spoiler-free discussion
of the Hunger Games world in general.
What we knew kind of heading into this book,

(00:45):
things that we were kind of thinking and knew
about Hamich Abernathy who is--
- That he was hot.
- Yeah, well, Woody Harrelson's hot.
So, you know. - Yeah.
- In my head then, Hamich is hot.
- Not a little rascal.
- Yes, exactly.
And so before we dive into our spoiler version
of sunrise on the reaping,
if you haven't heard yet,

(01:06):
here's really kind of a quick rundown of the book.
The Hunger Games prequel centers on Hamich,
who you will probably know as Katniss's mentor.
It's focused on the 50th Hunger Games,
which is also known as the second quarter quell.
If that sounds familiar to you,
it's actually the reaping where they put in

(01:29):
double the amount of contestants or tributes.
So rather than 24 people going in from the districts,
they actually had 48.
- Do we know what they did in the first quarter quell?
Because for Katniss's quarter quell,
they reaped from the pool of existing victors.
And then yeah, Hamich's was double the tributes.

(01:51):
I wonder what they did for the first one.
- So the first quarter quell was the Hunger Games
where they made the districts of vote
who would go into the reaping.
- Oh, that's a mess.
- Can you imagine winning the Hunger Games
and then coming back and be like,
"Oh, have you voted me yet?"
- Yeah, so you all hate me is what you're saying.

(02:14):
So you hate me.
Stacy, I saw you vote for me.
I saw you fucking vote for me, bitch.
- Exactly.
- Yeah, so the first quarter quell,
you had to vote in people from your district.
The second was Hamich's.
It was double the tributes
and then the last Hunger Games of the Hunger Games
is the 75th quarter quell.

(02:35):
And that is reaping of tributes.
And so they do them every 25 years
and they're meant to be audacious
over consumption of a Hunger Games.
- Yeah, the over the top.
Even more fancy and ridiculous
than the usual Hunger Games,
which is always ridiculous and over the top
and lots of children dying.

(02:57):
- Yeah, trigger warning for children dying.
- Yeah, lots of trigger warnings.
Just war, you know, hunger, all the things
that you can imagine, of course, kids dying.
And, you know, the Hunger Games takes place
in this dystopian future.
It's in a place called Pan M,
which is the ruins of North America

(03:19):
after like a governmental collapse and war.
So Pan M is kind of,
the districts are set up into these 12 colonies,
formerly 13.
So kind of think back to when the United States
first started, we had the 13 colonies
and those things.
So it's a bit of a nod back to that.

(03:40):
But the Hunger Games is--
- It reminds me kind of like handmade stale
where it used to be the United States,
but now it's gillian, gillian.
- Gillian, yeah.
- And so yeah, like imagine the United States,
but yeah, it's broken up into 12.
I saw a map the other day on social media
that was like what the districts actually are
like what they're broken up into,

(04:00):
but I'm not sure how accurate it was,
but it was interesting to see it.
- So it is, it actually came out of a promo
for the Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes movie.
Is where there-- - Oh, so it was a legit one.
- Yeah, so it's from the movie specifically.
And actually, if you just Google like Pan M,
US overlay, like map, you'll be able to see like,

(04:24):
District 10 is mainly Texas, like Arizona.
- Where way in Arizona?
- Arizona in New Mexico are District 5, California is
District 4, the District 12, which are where Hamage
and Katniss are from is known as Appalachia.
And ultimately, it is--

(04:44):
- Mountains and trees and forests.
- Very much that.
And Pan M is like a futuristic America
and they've kind of broken it into this,
but really the Hunger Games gets started
after what's known as the Dark Days.
They ultimately reap these young girls and young boys

(05:07):
to kind of put a remembrance of why
that they shouldn't rebel against the Capitol.
- Yeah, it's--
- It's their ongoing punishment year after year.
And if you rise up again, then it's just gonna get worse.
It's toe the line.
(laughs)
- Yeah, absolutely.
And we get introduced really into the Hunger Games world

(05:29):
during the 74th Hunger Games with Katniss and PETA.
But really, it was such an interesting way to go back
and really see these characters 25 years in the future
and how these people started
and how they got there ultimately.
- Yeah, I liked that portion of the book.
I'm sure that we'll get to it a little deeper

(05:50):
in our conversation, but I remember texting you
because you finished it before me, of course.
Shocker, of course you did.
Shocked, but I was like, I don't know how I feel
about all of these characters.
It kind of just felt like member berries.
Like, oh, that character is here.
Oh, yeah, that character is here.
But by the end of the book, I was like, okay,
I get it and I like that.

(06:11):
And it explains why they are the way that they are
when we run into the Katniss' books.
Oh, that's why she's like this now
and that explains her backstory.
So yeah, I agree, it was interesting.
- If you haven't finished the book yet,
or you haven't started it yet,
hopefully we can kind of convince you
to read the book from our spoiler free version
here, familiar names, but not overwhelming.

(06:33):
- Yes, yes, exactly.
And I think that the Hunger Games has,
I mean, when I was younger,
I, I think I was in high school
when the original books came out
and it hit me at such a point in my life.
Like, the Hunger Games are a YA novel.
They're very dark YA novel, ultimately.
- Yeah, they are.
- Because, you know, children are getting murdered,

(06:54):
but it has such an important message.
And so, Suzanne Collins, the writer of the Hunger Games,
she's known in kind of the book talk world
and just overall social media world
as Suzanne Collins does not write a book
unless she has something to say.
And I think that is.
- Absolutely, yep.

(07:14):
- And it's very profound.
- It's in a coincidence.
- Yeah, that this book came out in the time
that it did and what we're facing in the United States.
There are so many little nods where it's not overt,
but if you know, you know.
- Yeah, absolutely.
And, you know, when she first wrote the initial book,

(07:35):
she's been quoted to say,
you know, I was channel surfing
between reality TV and an actual war coverage
when Katna's story came to me.
One night I was sitting around
just flipping channels of young people competing for money.
I don't know, maybe.
And onto the next, there was a group of young people
fighting in an actual war.

(07:55):
And I was tired.
- Yeah.
- And the lines began to blur in this very unsealing way.
And I thought of this story.
- That's fascinating.
I mean, you think about how you watch the war,
you watch one tragedy, you all get sad.
And then it's, okay, we forget about that
and move on right to the next one.
And then that fast tragedy becomes a distant memory
and how it just kind of becomes, I don't know,

(08:16):
oversaturated of this 24/7 news cycle.
Let's all watch the news all night and just get sad
and riled up and then not do anything about it
where tragedy can become entertainment, absolutely.
- Well, the Vietnam War was the first war
that we ever had brought into our homes, right?
But I think of the Iraq War as, you know,

(08:36):
just constant coverage where people could tune into it
at any given time and it was always there.
And so it was really, really interesting.
She had a father who served in Vietnam
so she kind of had that background in it.
But the original trilogy was inspired by Greek mythology
and particularly the myth of theses and the Minotaur

(08:57):
in which Athens was forced to sacrifice seven boys
and seven girls to the Minotaur as punishment,
which is a very clear parallel there and bringing that in.
- I feel like a lot of mythologies have that sacrifice
your youth to God.
It's like even God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son,

(09:19):
Isaac, to prove his loyalty to him and in the end,
God pulled a, "Gachah, oh, you were gonna do it,
"she'll, you don't have to anymore."
But like, definitely a running theme
throughout a religion of mythology.
- Yes, ultimately, and we've been retelling
Greek mythology stories, stories of religion
over and over throughout it and just finding new ways

(09:42):
to resonate with it.
Now, after the initial Hunger Games trilogy,
I think that Suzanne Collins was like perfect.
I wrote my little story, everything's gonna go well
in the world.
But as we mentioned earlier, Suzanne Collins
really doesn't write anything by mistake.
And I think that we first saw that she really had

(10:02):
something to say with the ballad of songbirds and snakes.
- Oh, gosh, which I still haven't read.
- Yes.
Did you watch the movie yet?
- You know, I haven't and everyone keeps telling me
how good it is.
I think I will.
My gut reaction of why it's taking me so long
is that I really don't, I mean, I don't like snow, obviously.
And so I'm like, why the fuck would I want to watch

(10:23):
an entire movie dedicated to,
like in this guy's sob story?
- Yeah, like I don't hear you.
- But I don't hear you. - But I don't hear you.
- You're so hot. - Yeah.
I know, but I'm like, oh, oh, what was me?
You had a sad story and now you're gonna be like a dictator
and a fascist.
I don't know.
But I've heard that it's more than that.

(10:43):
So I'll give it a whirl.
- Yes, I think that the movie, I mean, a lot,
and we'll talk a little bit about the movie,
or the book to the movie adaptations, I think, a lot.
- Yeah.
- What is said in ballad of songbirds and snakes?
So in the book of ballad and songbirds and snakes,
you're through snow's mind, right?
So you hear his internal monologue

(11:05):
and you hear that he is deep down like a bad person,
even before he becomes like evil snow.
And so-- - Okay.
- So it's always been there.
See, I wanted that too.
I'm sick of all these.
- Yeah.
- I like a complex villain and I like a tragic backstory,
but sometimes I want a villain who's just a dick.

(11:26):
I want him just to be a bad person.
I don't need some sob story.
I don't know.
- Yeah, and I think, you know,
she is exploring these really popular themes
in all of her books, right?
So she's been on record to say
the ballad of songbirds and snakes is looking at human nature
through the philosophical arguments of Hob's,

(11:49):
Locke and Russo.
And ultimately, like, is someone born bad
or is it something that happens to them?
Is it a series of things that occur
that lead them to this path
and make them ultimately bad?
And so I think it is a very interesting look
into how does someone become like a fascist dictator?

(12:10):
- Or they are terrible.
- And all of a sudden.
- Who broke Donald Trump's heart.
- Yeah, right?
And she came out with that.
I mean, when did it come out like in 2021?
So she was writing it around the time of, you know,
the Trump presidency and things like that.
And so four sunrise on the reaping.
Ultimately, she has been said to draw inspiration

(12:34):
from the Scottish philosopher, David Hume.
Oh, yes, my favorite.
Oh, yes, of course.
It's a-- - Yeah, undoubtedly.
(laughs)
Hume, Hume's philosophy explores the easiness
in which the many are governed by the few.
- Oh, shit.

(12:55):
- Yes.
- So his whole kind of philosophy explores that
and why are we willing to do that?
And it also kind of lends itself into propaganda
and how we find ourselves believing that
and accepting that.
Even when we do know that things are bad
and people don't have our best interest in heart.

(13:15):
- Yeah, and like the diffusion of responsibility
at a certain point, like we all see that something bad
is happening, but we all think,
oh, somebody else will take care of it.
Somebody else will take care of it.
And at a certain point, everybody just kind of sits back
and lets it happen because they think,
at a certain point, oh, it's too hard to do anything
about it now.
Like no one did anything, so now none of us can.

(13:38):
And then that's how people get away with continued evil shit.
- Yes, exactly.
And before we head into our spoiler version,
give the listeners who maybe read slower than you,
a spoiler free review of the sunrise on the Reaping Game.
- First of all, it is April

(13:59):
and I've already finished seven books this year.
And I know you've probably finished like 35,
but that's pretty good for me.
- That is good.
- I loved this book.
I have not read song of--
- That was some words in this guy.
(laughs)
I haven't read that yet or seen the movie,
but I am a huge Hunger Games fan.

(14:22):
I have watched those movies way more times
than I think is probably healthy.
(laughs)
And read all of the books immediately when they came out.
And this book was,
you hear Hamich's voice in your head.
It's written in such a perfect tone of voice.
Almost where I had to reread certain lines like twice

(14:43):
because they weren't quite grammatically correct
because it's the way that he speaks, right?
Do you know what I'm trying to say?
- Yes.
- And he'll say something and I'm like,
"Wait, what is he trying to--
- He speaks like someone from Appalachia, you know?
- Exactly.
And so I really liked that detail.
And yeah, without saying any spoilers,
I haven't cried in a book in a long time.

(15:07):
And I went to the end of this book.
And my husband was in his office playing video games
and I walked in and I was like,
"You don't even understand."
And he's like, "No, I don't."
I write down.
- He's still reading two years later.
He's like, "Yeah, I don't get it."
- He's never gonna finish, dude.

(15:28):
- Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I definitely rated this five stars on Goodreads.
It was great.
I think it had the right amount of fan service.
It really explored a deep meeting, a deep theme
and dark as hell.
And I think for a story, you think you know so much about

(15:52):
because you met this character within the Hunger Games.
I mean, there was still so much that shocked me throughout
and even though you know what's coming at the end
because you meet Hamich later down the road,
you know what's not gonna be good.
Like, I knew even those final couple pages,
I was reading it like, "Oh, like you turned the page

(16:14):
"because you're like, "Oh, something bad's gonna happen."
- Yeah.
- Oh, lo and behold, it's Hunger Games.
So it lots of bad things happen.
But it all makes so much sense to explain
why Hamich is the way he's now.
- Yeah, absolutely.
(dramatic music)
- Before we head into our spoiler sunrise

(16:37):
on the reaping discussion,
we wanna remind you that we do have a Patreon
wanna shout out full access to our new PCJ pops,
a sneak peek into the uncensored video of our episodes
before anyone else gets to see them.
(imitates music)
- You also get, you also get,
you also get, you also get,
- It might not sound sexual at all.

(16:57):
- Oh, yeah. - Sorry guys.
(imitates music)
- You also get, like, a mut from the Hunger Games
like you know.
- A mutation.
You also get to support our show,
which brings us to you the best of the pop culture
on a weekly basis.
- That's a bad shirt.
- That in itself is a reward.
You get to hear us do lovely animal noises,

(17:19):
like Shawna just did.
(laughing)
So to access our Patreon, go to patreon.com/popculturejunkiepodcast
and subscribe.
- Okay, so now that the fairies of the world
are out and not listening.
- Hey, hey, she learned how to read eventually.

(17:41):
- Yeah, you're slowly becoming literate.
No, I'm just kidding.
- She figured it out.
- We wanted to do this book,
but we wanted to give our listeners enough time
to be able to get through it and read it.
And ultimately, we are aware that people have lives
unlike myself.
And so, you know, sometimes it's hard to get through a whole book
unless you have high perfectations.

(18:03):
And so, you know, I think that this book in itself
was so well done mainly because we kind of alluded to it
in the beginning, hey, Mitch is a character
that we know survives the Hunger Games, right?
We meet him with Katniss and 25 years from now.
We know that he is a very sad alcoholic

(18:23):
who has no family, no friends.
At a certain point, they ask him, well, do you have any tips for us?
And he goes, accept the inevitability of your,
like, imminent demise.
- Of your imminent demise, basically.
- Except the fact that you're gonna die
and there's nothing you can do about it.
And they were both like, aren't you supposed to be armant

(18:45):
or like, so that is the first introduction we get to him.
- Yeah, and ultimately, if you never read
the Hunger Games books, but you did watch the movies,
hey, Mitch is very much changed within the book to movie, right?
So within the movie, he is kind of there
as the silly alcoholic.

(19:05):
He's there for comedic relief.
I mean, it's really hard not to--
- But just sad because I tragic alcoholism is not funny.
- Yeah, well, it's the Hunger Games.
So it's murder.
- Hey, you lived and now you just drunk all the time.
- Yeah.
- I mean, to be fair, that would be absolutely being--
- Yeah, I mean, that's me and I'm not going into the Hunger Games.

(19:26):
- That's me right now. - Yeah, and ultimately, the book itself,
it changes a lot of things about Heymich.
So we have the iconic Woody Harrelson playing Heymich,
but within the books, Heymich is actually described

(19:46):
as having dark hair and gray eyes.
He is much more--
he's not blonde hair blue-eyed within it.
And a lot of the people within District 12 fit that.
So Katniss has more olive skin tone.
She is very dark hair.
And so, you know, kind of keep that in mind
whenever they originally casted it,
where, you know, he doesn't necessarily fit the book description.

(20:09):
Woody Harrelson?
Woody Harrelson is just so good, though.
And that has to be it.
It's just like, he captures it so well,
just that like tragic nuance,
do you know there's something else there?
You don't really get to find out, you know,
in those first couple books or even movies,
but you know something went down, right?

(20:30):
- Yes. - To make him the way he is.
And Woody Harrelson is just such an amazing actor.
It's like, I'm thinking PETA's character, too,
is also kind of that like blonde kid,
but I don't remember if he has described that way in the book.
- He is just blonde in the books.
- Okay.
Yeah, but he's just, he nailed it.
So, you know, no stink from me with a different hair color.

(20:53):
- Yes, and in the books, Hey Matches is seen
as much more strategic and helping Katniss and PETA
kind of navigate the capital itself and understanding,
like what are they gonna look for?
He definitely like pushes Katniss and PETA
into their romance and their interview presentations

(21:14):
and doing those things.
And so, I think it, you lose a little bit of the depth
to Hey Match within the movies that you would have had
if you had read the original Hunger Games trilogy.
- I agree with that.
You do see like spots of it in the movie
where he looks over and sees like the kids playing

(21:34):
with the toys and you can, you know, in the capital
and they're playing with like swords,
wow, Katniss and PETA are in the games.
And you could see that like sadness in his eyes
where he's like, oh, these kids are playing murder
and when he starts hustling the room
and trying to get them some sponsors, you know,
especially once the, once catching fire is over

(21:55):
and the plot is revealed with Plutarch,
then we really get to see him kind of become more
of that strategic player.
But I agree it was definitely like a lot of things
between these movies and the books were more nuanced
or they cut them out for the sake of film
or even for violence is sake in some of them, I think.
- Yeah, yeah, and that's, he's like, yeah, right.

(22:19):
So I love that you just said like, you know,
the plot to overthrow the capital
become with District 13.
Like, so you know that Hamish has involved in that
within the original trilogy, but you don't know
when they met, how they met,
you have a friendship spell.
And ultimately that's really what you get
within this book, right?

(22:39):
So him and Plutarch, you mean?
Him and Plutarch, him and Beatie, him and,
- Mags and mags. - Mags and mags.
Yes.
So we talked about it a little bit in the beginning
where you see these characters from catching fire,
which are virus, Beatie and mags.
And ultimately, Hamish was originally supposed to be

(23:02):
briefed within those games.
So he was supposed to go in, but PETA actually
volunteers as tribute, so me, Mitch gets taken out.
But you meet these characters,
Mag is actually Hamish's mentor
and virus as well is involved within the mentorship,
because again, they have 48 mentor,

(23:25):
are they 48 tributes?
So they have two mentors. - Remember that little line
in catching fire where Katniss is like,
oh, there's no way she's gonna survive talking about mags.
And then Hamish says, well, I hope when she goes,
she goes fast, she's actually a really nice lady.
- Yeah.

(23:45):
- And it just brings so much more depth to that now
that you know, like, yeah, she was so there for him.
It makes sense why,
why risks is, what's the good word for this?
Talks to herself in his kind of strange, right?
- Yes, it's alluded that they were tortured

(24:07):
at the end of this book, but we don't really know how.
Same with mags doesn't even speak anymore, right?
Like, virus is kind of like,
loses a mind a little bit, but mags is just silent,
isn't she, in catching fire?
She's just mute.
- Yeah, she doesn't really speak, but at the same time,
she's also Annie's mentor, I think at some point within it.

(24:29):
So I don't know if she's just like old,
within catching fire.
I know that it impacts her quite a bit,
but I don't know if she's like,
I don't think she has a single line in that entire movie
from watching it, and she kind of like signs to catness.
I don't know, it's just, to me,
both of their characters speak trauma,
something happened, and then we see in sunrise

(24:49):
on the reaping that they were tortured
after "Hammages Games."
So like, that explains why they're the way they are now.
- Yeah, ultimately, and so you start to see these connections.
We also meet Beatie, who actually, as a result of his,
so Beatie is known to be one of the smartest people

(25:11):
within Pennam, not just the districts,
not just the capital, and he's very in control
of their electrical grid and their power grid.
And so they cannot kill him as a result of his rebellion.
So what they end up doing is they send in his son
into the Hunger Games.

(25:32):
His 12 year old son goes in, so the first year,
and ultimately, like, Beatie goes into it,
knowing that his son is going to die,
and they hatch this plan of how do we destroy the arena itself
and go through this kind of large plot to destroy it

(25:53):
with Ampert Beatie's son, and then ultimately,
Hamich as well, and so Hamich is involved in it.
- How did you feel about that plot?
It was so frustrating, and purposefully so,
I think it's supposed to be frustrating,
in that he keeps getting, he goes through the plan, right?
He floods the system, and it doesn't really do anything.

(26:16):
And it leads to Ampert's, like you said, Beatie and him,
already knew he was gonna die.
It was punishment for Beatie to have to watch his son die in TV.
And he was like, I want it to just be as quick and painless
as possible, and it ended up being the most gruesome death
of the games. - Oh, yeah.
- Oh my God.
Oh, never looking at a squirrel the same.
- Literally, squirrel.

(26:38):
But, and then, so he gets through this whole plot,
and Hamich beats himself up throughout the book too.
His internal monologue is just, I'm useless.
Why did I do this?
I should have just not done anything.
It would have been better to not do anything,
which is that diffusion of responsibility, right?
He's kicking himself or doing something
because it didn't really work out.

(26:58):
And I know he has another plan in the end,
but it's frustrating to see him go through that, right?
- Yeah, well, I think that's kind of like the argument
of the whole book, right?
Like of, you know, I think that Hamich's actions
do cause the capital to lose control of the narrative

(27:20):
within the game.
They wrestle it back in the end, ultimately,
with the replays and what they let people kind of see
on the second go around.
- Propaganda, and that's what the news,
like, you know, that's propaganda now,
just tweaking things to your liking.
And like, in the United States,
has it any country as propaganda,
but you think of North Korea, right?

(27:41):
Or they only show you the certain things
that make them look real good.
And so people don't know the actual truth.
But, yeah, it's so frustrating.
And you just want to scream and throw the book across the room.
- Yeah, and I think, you know, at the end of the book,
they had this line where, you know,
there's gonna be another victor later,

(28:02):
who's luckier than you are, but has catches fire
and that rebellion goes into it.
And you see that, you know, there are so many people involved.
We haven't really talked about Plutarch yet,
because I want to spend some time on him,
but you see so many people from the district
who have Plutarch involved in this story as well.

(28:22):
And then Hamich, who was courageous enough to do it,
he was courageous, he had the plan,
but he didn't have the luck, and he didn't have, you know,
the right kind of factors working for him at that moment in time.
- He had people who had his back,
but not to the degree that Katnist did.
So I do think, thinking back, you know, in the moment,

(28:45):
he probably thought, oh, this was useless, this didn't do anything,
but no, absolutely did.
You have to try and fail.
Like, revolutions aren't just easy.
It's not something you just try once,
and then you overthrow the government and everything's hunky-dory.
It's like, people will try and fail and fuck up and fall down,
and you will vote somebody out of office,
and then four years later they'll come back,

(29:06):
and it doesn't mean that you just stop, you keep trying.
So I think that's, you know, kind of like the epilogue
at the end of the book, he's like, yeah,
I did meet somebody who had more luck than I do.
And did destroy not only the arena, but the entire system.
So yeah, in that moment, it just,
it was so heartbreaking to see him be like,
why am I even doing this?

(29:27):
I keep fucking up, I keep failing, and you're like,
no, man, this is necessary, this is necessary,
the failure is necessary.
- Yeah, and ultimately, you know,
there's so many beautiful like callbacks within it.
Whenever I think, whenever I realize that,
you know, there's the scene with Lenore Dove and Hamich,

(29:48):
where he talks about wanting to be the last person
ever reaped, and to be fair, he technically was,
but it was 25 years later, because Hamich was the last name
pulled, and then Peter, you know, volunteers distribute,
but then that's the last hundred things.
- Yeah, so there's blue my mind,
you can blue my mind a little bit.

(30:10):
- Oh, so there's so many beautiful things
within this story, but, you know, one of the characters
that I think was the most interesting that we got to me
and get to know as a younger person
was definitely Plutarch Heavensby, who it--
- Did you picture him as--
- Phillips Seymour Hoffman.
- William H.

(30:30):
- I almost said it, William H. Macy.
- Why?
- I did picture him as William H. Macy.
I pictured him as film, like,
Phillips Seymour Hoffman the entire day.
- Yeah.
- May he rest in peace.
- Just like a young Phillips Seymour Hoffman,
yeah, absolutely.
- Absolutely, let me tell you.
- Hey, Mitch, it was just a young, what do you hear?
I'll say that in my mind.
- 100%.
But, yeah, I mean, I think that meeting Plutarch

(30:53):
as a younger person, as such a younger privileged person
who also kind of could see through it.
So you see these early seedlings of us,
no, hating Plutarch.
Now Plutarch is younger than him,
but Plutarch really kind of plays this angle

(31:13):
of getting what he needs out of the capital,
but also having this kind of like secret rebellion.
And you see that-- - Yeah.
- That the resources of the capital,
I mean, sometimes you need someone on the inside like that.
- Or an over their trust, get the money in the resources,
get on the inside.
- Yes, and one of the most interesting things to me
that I think I saw within this book that I took away

(31:35):
was the Heavensby family are even among the district
and the capital.
Some of the few people who still have access to books
and books that we would know today in North America.
So I don't think I ever really like grasp the level of like,
book burning, information control that the capital had

(31:57):
on books like the Raven by Edgar Allan Poe
is within this book quite a bit.
And no one-- - Yeah, exactly.
I know I caught that and it took me a minute too.
I didn't mean to cut you off,
but like when he first started quoting the Raven,
I was like, oh, yeah, you're like,
I forgot that this, yeah, I forgot that this took place
in what used to be the United States.

(32:18):
So yeah, this literature did exist in this world.
It's just people don't have access to it anymore.
So now it's just passed down through song
and through tale and spoken word, yeah.
But yeah, a lot of song, especially in the same.
- Yes, exactly.
And so, you know, it, how does the Heavensby's
because the Heavensby's are one of the richest families

(32:40):
within the capital.
They're richer than the snow family
and you see that within valid a song, birds and snakes.
And that is ultimately like why snow
so deeply despises the Heavensby family as well.
But they're keeping up with the genders a little bit.
Their ability to retain information and retain text
is actually what gives them that sets of humanity

(33:03):
in empathy and wanting to overthrow it.
Now, Plutarch I think is very self-serving within himself
because he's not like overtly putting his money there.
He's kind of behind the curtain tinkerer,
which might be what people need.
- Yeah, I mean, he's not gonna put his name in face to it.
Yeah, which, you know, for better or worse

(33:24):
could be something that any revolution needs
and I'm sure it is, but even when the book started
and he kind of started exposing himself to Hamich
as being on his side, I know how it ends
and I know who Plutarch ends up being.
But even I was like, wait, is he bad?
Is he bad?
Like even you aren't sure if he's kind of like playing Hamich.

(33:48):
- Yeah, I think he's meant to be very self-serving
where he thinks that's gonna be best.
Like does he do it because snow hates his family
and he knows that snow has to be overthrown
or is he doing it for the good of goodness, you know?
And so I think he gets results, so that's good.

(34:09):
I think that he's a very interesting character.
He's a very complex character.
And so one thing I didn't mention about Susan Collins
is she was originally a screenwriter
and so she likes to write within trilogies
and all of the books are written within a three-act structure
as well.

(34:30):
- So do you think is gonna be the next,
it's gonna be Plutarch?
Because I think she is going within a story of snow,
Hamich, someone deeply impacted but becomes,
like who is hurt but becomes a part of a rebellion
and then someone who is, you know, on the outsides
of that society and decides to join

(34:52):
because they don't have everything they want.
- If she writes a book about Plutarch,
it'll be interesting too.
Because it'll be the first book that she's written
if somebody who wasn't a tribute.
So it'll be definitely kind of a snow isn't a tribute.
- Well, that's true, but somebody,
he's like training a tribute or he's,
he's a mentor in the beginning.

(35:13):
- Yes, I guess that's true,
but it's somebody who's not like either a mentor
or a tribute, like.
- Yeah, well, I mean, Plutarch is like the video,
the propaganda person who like follows them around.
So he's involved in the games,
but probably still like get through the plot
of A Hunger Games within the book.
- Yeah, well, because Plutarch becomes a game maker, right?

(35:36):
And so he starts as the film person
who's like following around the district.
I think it'd be really interesting to see how he moves up
within that and like what does that do?
- Yeah, we're gonna see like that a,
like what promotion, what bad did he have to do
to get there to eventually do good?
I think that's a really interesting philosophical.

(35:56):
Like the needs, the many overcome the needs of one.
Like I think I could really see her making that argument
and saying, hey, is this even a good person?
Is this someone that you should support?
Because they did all this bad even though it led to
an overall much greater good.
Like I can see-- - He's gonna have to do something bad
to earn Snow's trust, right?

(36:18):
He's not just gonna let this guy move from being like
a propaganda journalist, if you know,
journalists very loosely there to be a game maker.
You gotta do something, shoot that toddler in the head
or something, I don't know.
- Yes, yeah, ultimately.
And I think that'd be a really interesting philosophical argument,
right?
There's so much philosophy around the needs of the greater good,

(36:42):
makeup for bad actions, negative action to one person.
I do think that it's gonna be a Plutarch
if she does end a third book.
She goes inside for sure she is.
But just-- - Oh, these are making so much money though.
- Yeah, but what I really do want to see
is a Finic Odare, a Hunger Games.

(37:04):
- Yeah.
- And if they could just age down some--
- Daddy. - At a Catholic.
- He's so hot.
He's so hot and touching fire.
- He's so hot.
Oh my God, just in a sugar cube.
- Yes, that was like when he pops that sugar cube in.
Oh, baby.
- I'll be your sugar cube, daddy.
- Yes.
- Yes, so hot, and he's amazing.

(37:24):
- Also really hot and dainty Joe's in the sixth.
- Squirrel.
- And also hot in that movie where he is a paraplegic
with me before you--
- With Daenerys Targaryen.
- Yeah, yeah, very hot.
Sorry, see this is why we need a Squirrel.
- Squirrel.
- So I'm eating squirrels.
- No but-- - He's a track.
- Yeah, but one of the funniest things,

(37:46):
I think about this book coming out
is the internet reaction to it.
So whenever the movie came out,
they had Tom Blithe play, Snow.
Tom Blithe is a very attractive man.
And so the--
- You mean in "Balad Assam Burns" and "Snakes."
- The ditty of the snakes and the birdies.

(38:07):
- Yes, yeah.
And so there were all these fan edits of Tom Blithe as Snow.
- Oh my God, so--
- No people thirsting over snow.
- Yes, and the internet said that this book was
our consequence of that.
And that's why she ultimately ripped our freaking heart out.
I mean, there were so many good characters.
- Oh, he's handsome.

(38:28):
- Oh, yeah.
Did you see him as Snow?
Type, type.
- Yeah, I'm looking at him right now.
- Yeah. - But also, we've said this before,
never trust a blonde man.
- Yeah, never trust a blonde man.
But you know, these characters within this book
were so amazing.
I mean, like, mazily Donner, so good.
You see nods of her throughout.

(38:49):
- I love her.
- Oh, we love a best.
- She bests me, girl.
She reminds me of Cordelia Chase, right?
- Yes.
- A bitch with a heart of gold.
- A bitch with a heart of gold.
- Yeah, that's perfect.
- She will look at your outfit and be like,
what the fuck are you wearing?
And then also offer to redress you
unless you get on her bad side.

(39:09):
And then she's just gonna make little jabs
at you every time you see her.
- I don't know if you ever caught this,
but the mocking J-Pan, that cat-ness guess--
- Yes, it's mazily's.
- Yeah, so--
- Yes, 'cause she thought it was ugly, right?
(laughing)
- Yeah, so--
- She's like, what is that?
- We had a mazily who is an amazing character.

(39:29):
Lulu, who, oh my god,
- Oh my god.
- Oh my god, just so sad.
- Rip my heart out with Lulu and Lulu.
What's Lulu's actual name, I forgot.
- Loyella?
- Loyella, yes.
- Loyella and Lulu,
both equally tragic characters.
Poor Wyatt, who doesn't get much to do in this book,

(39:51):
but he's there.
And Ampurt, who has, like I said, a horrifying death.
All of the deaths in this book are horrifying.
- Yeah, never gonna look at a squirrel the same.
- No, eaten by squirrels, blown up, heads cut off.
- The killer head chug.
- The killer head chug.

(40:11):
- Yeah. - Yeah.
- This one had a lot of crazy mutations.
I also think the arena, as itself,
was really, really interesting.
It's known to be this beautiful scenery,
but everything is poisonous.
So it's like, what looks beautiful on the outside
and can kill you or the illusion of beauty.
- Like a red rose with sorens.

(40:32):
- Yeah, the illusion of beauty.
So honestly, if you can't tell,
we could go on and on and on about this.
But I think that this book has so many deep themes within it
and ultimately of how power structures
try to maintain control and how individuals
can resist oppression even when that victory

(40:54):
seems impossible.
Again, Suzanne Collins, just an amazing person
to come in and create a story.
- Incredible. - They'll live.
- Yeah, ultimately.
And I think even if she wrote like a joke book,
it would still be amazing and have deep themes
and meaning within it.
- I'd still cry.
- Yeah, absolutely.

(41:14):
So she's just amazing at really telling a story
that makes us think.
And so we're gonna take a quick break
and we're gonna talk a little bit about the film adaptation.
(dramatic music)
- Okay, so if you haven't heard yet,
the Sunrise on the Reeping book was immediately picked up

(41:38):
for a movie, Go Figure, just like the Ballad of Songbirds
and Snakes, they kind of immediately,
like I think as soon as Suzanne Collins finished the book,
they started to write the script.
And so it was so close afterwards, yeah.
- Yeah, and she writes in a really good way
because again, she was a screenwriter
to be adapted into a movie.

(41:59):
- Well, we don't have any official casting announcements.
They have started to release a little bit of buzz,
a little bit of rumors within it.
- And rumor mill buzzing.
- Yeah. - Love it.
- And I think most of these sound legit.
- Yes, they do.
So for our leading man here,

(42:23):
we have Charlie Plummer as Hamich Abernathy.
So I had originally wanted this person to be
Keeper Sutherland because obviously it's Donald Sutherland's
son, but I actually do really, really like this casting.
- Keeper Sutherland as old girl.
- So is President Snow.

(42:43):
- He's pretty. - Yeah, but you mean for Snow,
I thought you meant for Hamich.
And I was like, "Bad, you are so pretty."
- E.K. Lying really am, aren't you?
And now I'm just gonna picture Keeper Sutherland
trying to play a 16 year old.
And he's like, "Yeah, I'm big."

(43:04):
- So we have 24 hours to be in to destroy the arena.
- I would watch that though.
I would definitely watch that.
- Oh, absolutely.
- No, that key would be great for Snow.
- Yes, Keeper Sutherland for President Snow
because his dad was the older snow.
But unfortunately they're not doing that.
The rumored casting for this is actually

(43:26):
rafes finds so not only-- - So old the more?
- Yeah. - Literally old the more.
- So not only is he going to play Voldemort,
he will play Snow.
- The girl has come to die.
- So literally Voldemort.
So Voldemort. - Literally Voldemort.
- So the girl has got fire.
- Has come to die.

(43:49):
- Literally.
I don't hate it.
I think you could do a good job in it.
- It's a good actor.
- Yes, he is.
Even if he has a confusing name to pronounce.
(laughing)
- It's too much his name ever.
- Okay, how old is Snow supposed to be in his 50s, right?
- Yes, yeah.
- So it-- - Okay, it's--
- It's fine as 62.

(44:11):
So-- - Yeah, yeah.
- It's close.
Same with Keeper Sutherland.
I was going straight.
I just want NEPO baby casting.
Same thing with Plutarch.
I wanted it to be Philipsy More Hoffman's son.
- But-- - Was he an actor?
- Yeah, he is.
But they're saying that it will most likely be Jesse Plemons.

(44:34):
- Which-- - Jesse Plemons would be--
- Perfect.
- He looks so much like him.
- Yeah, he looks, he's spot on,
and he's a very good actor.
- Yeah, he looks so much like Philipsy More Hoffman.
Now, I love this one the most.
Out of all the rumored fan casting.
- Yeah, I love that.
- I don't know.
- We have Kirin Colken as a Caesar flickerman.

(44:55):
I don't know.
I mean, I would have to see it.
- Kirin Colken again. - Cool act.
- A wonderful actor.
But I'm not sure if he looks like--
- Stanley Tucci.
- Yeah, I don't know if I can,
I see that him growing into Stanley Tucci.
- Oh my God, no, I see it so much.
- It's essentially-- - And it's a very young
Caesar flickerman too.
And they're gonna have, like Caesar flickerman,

(45:17):
wears all those colors and like literal drag
all the time. - That's true.
- I see it for him. - He is a gay icon.
- Literally Kirin Colken is so funny.
I think that he's probably my favorite
out of all the rumored fan casting released so far.
I think he would-- - Yeah, he's wonderful.
- And do a really good job.
And then-- - Oh no, he would do amazing.
I just, I need to see the full makeup effects maybe.

(45:40):
- Yeah. - I need to see a purple booth font
on him. - Yeah, right.
- Exactly.
And the last one that we've had come out of this.
Now, they've been rumored to be playing two people.
I'm gonna say the one that I want them to play the most.
But I'll tell you the second laughter.
So L-fanning is rumored to be a young,

(46:02):
effie trinket.
I totally forgot to mention.
We meet effie within the book.
How effie in the industry-- - Oh my God, I love effie trinket.
I love that she had, Hey, Mitch is back.
Like, throughout, I mean, she's still effie
and she's still gonna be a capital darling.
But we see that little bits of humanity
where she knows that this isn't right.

(46:23):
- Yes. - You know, she--
- Yeah, I mean, as much as she wants to say,
well, this is for the greater goods.
And the games really are for the greater goods.
Like, you know, there's that doubt in her mind
where she's like, this is also gonna mess up.
- Yeah.
And so, L-fanning, I think, just like the red carpet looks,
we would get leading up to this movie as her
in "Math Addressing." - Oh my God.

(46:44):
I would love it. - Yes.
I think she would make a great effie trinket.
I also saw a fan cast of Lily Rinehart.
- Yeah. - Yeah.
I think she's too, like, sweet looking for that.
- Mm. - Vienna.
- Okay, I could see that.
I want her to get some more roles.
I like her. - I see.
- I like her too. - I think she's good.
- Lily Rinehart's hilarious.

(47:05):
Al-fanning has also been said to be rumored
for Mazzle Lee Donner.
But I think that needs to be like a mega bitch.
Someone who looks bitchy right out the gate.
- Yeah, I need a Burnett.
I don't know. - Well, she's blonde.
- She's blonde in the middle of it.
- Is she blonde? - Yeah.
- In my head, I picture her as a sassy Burnett.
Maybe it's just I pictured her just as charisma carpenter

(47:26):
in the entire movie. - Yeah, I'm fair, probably.
- Or the entire book.
- Yeah, charisma gets some blonde highlights.
- Yeah, let's get charisma in there.
(laughing)
- And so those are the main speculations of characters
we've seen so far.
Again, no one is confirmed yet.
I think the movies are kind of stuck to what

(47:46):
the other movies did, where they can't stray too far
from those original castings,
but I think they do have some wiggle room within it.
If they were to cast Hamage as someone with dark hair,
they'd be in trouble for continuity sake,
but-- - Yeah, it just wouldn't make sense.
But I mean, yeah, it doesn't.
You're never gonna get somebody who looks exactly

(48:07):
like somebody else because humans have faces.
- Yes, I also think they could do.
- That's for Chessie Plymans.
That one's-- - Yeah, that's--
- Those two might be related, I don't know.
- That's Philipsy Morehoff, a little spot on.
(laughing)
- Or they just get, I almost like Kristen Stewart.
- No.
- Kristen Dunst to play Fee would like that too.

(48:28):
She's a little too old though.
- Oh, I would love that.
I just watched Hidden Figures for the first time
over the weekend, and Kirsten Dunst is delightful in it.
I mean, she's a bitch, but she's good.
- I've seen that movie, but I don't remember her in it.
- I love that. - She plays, yeah,
like one of the higher ups in NASA,
who at first is like kind of trying to hold
the other ladies down, and then eventually she's like,

(48:50):
"Yeah, you could do this."
So.
- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Now it's coming back to me.
- I don't know, I haven't really been able to place
Lenore Dove in my mind.
I almost want it to be someone who has like a Rachel
Zegler look within her because it's like,
that Rachel Zegler within that story, right?

(49:12):
- Oh, Lucy Gray. - Yeah, Lucy Gray.
Lucy Gray is her aunt.
Lenore Dove is a redhead, right?
- I can't remember.
I think she does have a strawberry blonde or red hair.
Ooh, the redhead from Riverdale.
I could see her in it.
I don't know if she could sing, no.
- I mean, she's singing Riversdale,
but they all kind of were forced to sing in Riverdale.

(49:33):
- Yeah, right, exactly.
No, but I really, really love the book.
I mean, I think that so many good things to say,
even if you loved it. - Yeah, me too.
- If you went into it and you're like,
well, why would I read that?
I already know what's gonna happen.
Oh, boy.
- You don't though.
You think you know, but you don't.
- The buckle.
- This is the true life of HeyMitch.

(49:54):
- HeyMitch, have a happy nothing.
- And the stories that get told around it.
Why did I go to a studio?
- This is behind the music of HeyMitch.
(laughing)
I was doing behind the music, but I was doing S.V.
Oh my God.
(laughing)
- Man.
Behind the music is you think you know, but you don't.

(50:16):
This is the true story of Britney Spears.
- Then it's all like a breakdown.
Anyway, aging myself VH1, where you at?
- Well, in Vanabout, we'll go ahead and close out
our analysis of a sunrise on the reaping.
- Yeah.
- And we could talk about this forever.
We wanna talk about this forever.

(50:36):
Slide into the DMs.
Let us know your thoughts.
If we didn't cover something you think we should,
or you think we even missed a big theme of the book,
we would love to chat through it.
Honestly, we could talk about the Hunger Games
and Susan Collins forever.
Want actually the day that Sean broke her foot
when we were in Newport.
We finished all of the Hunger Games movies.

(50:59):
- We laid on the couch.
- And I had, I sent my foot,
and we were drinking white claws in order to pizza.
And that was one of my favorite parts of the trip,
even though I would have broken foot.
- But if you already had the broken foot.
- But my foot was already broken at that point.
I just didn't know it.
- Yes.
- And we watched Hunger Games on the couch and ate pizza,
and it was simply lovely.
- You know, and we had the door open

(51:20):
to the ocean sounds, it was amazing.
- Yeah, I'm glad.
- You know, the Hunger Games universe itself
has taken us through so many stages of life.
So we're so happy to talk about it with you guys here.
As you know, you can find us on the line on our website
at popculturejunkie.com.
From there, you can find our podcast on all platforms,

(51:40):
as well as social media links, blog posts, and more.
Please rate, subscribe, review the show.
Obviously it helps us so much.
Get discovered, give riveting analysis
like we have this time.
Actually, the time we sounded pretty smart.
- I was gonna say, we were pretty riveting this time.
We sound like we read a book, and that we know where.

(52:01):
- We have the best words.
- I have the best words, the greatest of words.
- I know all the words.
I have the best words.
- And as we mentioned at the top of the episode,
join our Patreon because every subscription
really helps us bring you more great episodes like this.
Find us at patreon.com/popculturejunkiepodcast,
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(52:21):
or get a super special shout out from us.
God, I'm so glad I said that fine.
Super special shout out.
- Super special, I've been slurring through this whole thing.
So not because I'm drunk, just 'cause I'm stupid.
- But I'm gonna put a bow.
- Shauna, where can I find you?
- I am also drunk and stupid.

(52:43):
You can find me @shaunatrinidad,
S-H-A-U-N-A-T-R-I-N-I-D-A-D on Instagram and threads.
- And you can find me, Olivia, on Instagram
@livimariez L-I-V-I-M-A-R-I-E-Z,
and an honor of this episode,

(53:04):
I'm gonna drop the Goodreads as well.
- Oh yeah, I'm gonna do that too.
Follow us on Goodreads.
I have three friends on there,
and I'm pretty sure it's just Olivia three times.
(laughs)
You can find me, Olivia, R-O-D-I on Goodreads
and then Shauna Trinidad as well.

(53:26):
Follow us, we have some great reads.
- And judge all of the books that we've been reading
and just be like, why did you read that?
Shauna, that's disgusting.
- Shauna, you are not reading, disgusting books.
- You're reading like, I got some good stuff on there.
- Yeah, you're reading like, the basics of smut, you know?
Like, they're not so dark.

(53:49):
I'm honestly, I've been in like a very wholesome read mood lately,
but you know, that could change.
- I've read a lot of like, I have autobiographies
and a lot of like feminist to like, fight the power stuff
on there too, so nothing to.
- I love that. - We pray.
- So yeah, thank you.
- Right, subscribe, follow.
We'd love to hear your thoughts on the sunrise

(54:10):
on the reapingness episode and come back next week
for another hit of pop culture.
(upbeat music)
- The Pop Culture Junkie podcast is produced by Jeff Markin
and Cheryl Lightfoot for the Pop Culture Entertainment Network.
So entertain me, entertain me right now
I need it bad, I need it bad

(54:32):
Cause I need it bad, I need it bad
[Music]