The Breakfast Club: Parental Influence & Societal Roles w/ Molly McAleer

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster
movies and psychoanalyze them. My name is Brittany Brownfield and
I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinozo, marriage and family therapists.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
We're all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists
who practice out of Chicago. Even though we are licensed
mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for entertainment purposes
and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture and
all forms.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,
we aren't your therapist.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find
a local mental health provider.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Hey, everybody, welcome back to school. I guess we do
happen to be doing this back to schoolish episode when
the school is in back in session here in Chicago
where we're from, and we have a foreign exchange student
with us today. Molly, McLear, Molly, who are you?

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Hey? Oh?

Speaker 4 (01:06):
So sorry?

Speaker 5 (01:06):
Wait, go ahead, do my intro redo it? I didn't know,
I didn't sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
No, you're okay.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
So we're joined today by our own foreign exchange student
all the way from Los Angeles. Molly McLear is a writer.
She's also a podcast host of two amazing podcasts, Mother
May I Sleep with Podcasts, which is a lifetime movie podcast,
and trend Lightly, which is a weekly pop culture podcast.
And I listened to both and I highly recommend. So
I know, Mom, if you want to say hey to everybody.

Speaker 5 (01:35):
Hi, thank you for having me. I'm very excited. I'm
a new fan of yours. But we've had this on
the books for quite some time, so I just hope
I can live up to the legend that is the
never Been Kissed episode.

Speaker 4 (01:50):
It's fantastic.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
I'm glad you like this so much.

Speaker 3 (01:53):
Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Back in session. So today we're going to be talking
about the Breakfast Club, iconic John Hughes movie from NXETE
eighty four. It is a real what do they call them,
bottle episode kind of movies, very much like a play
where it's about five kids who are in Saturday detention,
which was nine hours seven am is a crazy early

(02:14):
start for a full day detention. And so we have Bender, Claire, Andrew,
Brian and Allison. We are going to be talking about
each character individually and we're being touching upon probably quite
a few themes, like the parental influence on our sense
of self, societal roles, figuring out who you are as

(02:34):
a teenager, stereotypes, probably a few diagnoses here and there,
as they clearly see in the movie. And so basically
five kids in a room all day on a Saturday,
coming together to talk. Very group therapy ask in a
lot of ways as well.

Speaker 3 (02:52):
Very encounter group.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yes, yes, so I figured we would start with oddly
my favorite care arter, which I guess I could talk
to my therapist about. John Bender. He's like. Actually watching
this movie this time around, I was surprised how much
he felt like the carrier of a lot of the dialogue,

(03:15):
Like he's really got so much of the lines and
the action and so much of the movie kind of
circles around him, which I didn't quite remember when I
watched it when I was younger. This is also a
movie that I watched a lot when it was on
TBS and TNT, and so I actually this is the
first time I've watched the non TV rated version.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
Oh yeah, this is a definite R rated movie. It's
it's real different than what was on TBS, isn't it yes,
completely different.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Like I was, I didn't realize so many things. I
can't believe. It felt like a completely different film.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
So John Bender, he's introduced. He's the only kid that
doesn't get dropped off to school by his parents, which
was a really nice touch in just the onset of
this character, that he's someone that is totally taking care
of himself in a lot of ways. And what did

(04:15):
you guys all notice right away about John Bender just
presentation wise.

Speaker 5 (04:20):
Well, I just want to say I think that Bender
might be the lead character of this film. And I
noticed that he obviously carries himself with a lot of
confidence and what now looks like a honed personal style,
but at the time I think was maybe trying to
convey that there was something sort of ramshackle and uncool

(04:40):
about him, maybe like you'd be wearing a single glove
that was left in the mud room because he didn't
have a set sort of thing. But yeah, I just
I want to say, I think he's the main character,
and I think he is exceedingly cool for sure.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
Then yeah, I mean I noticed right away that he
was walking up I'm sure that was a deliberate, planned
shot to show him kind of trudging up confidently, but
also wearing a coat that is clearly too big for
him and clothes that look sloppy and kind of wild,

(05:21):
and that his hair is a little bit long and
shaggier than everybody else's and he's bigger than everybody else.
I think they made quite a few things clear about
Bender trudging immediately clear as everyone else is getting dropped off.
And I think did they show him right after Allison
got out of the backseat of her car. Is he

(05:43):
like walking up kind of around the front of that car.
Is that gets dropped off?

Speaker 1 (05:47):
I can't remember, but that does sound right. That does
sound right.

Speaker 4 (05:50):
I don't He's the last person there, which makes sense.

Speaker 5 (05:54):
Yeah, I actually I almost think that in some ways,
maybe the easier path to follow is like how people
arrived to therapy that day, because everything is done with
like some sort of intention. How we meet these characters,
and a lot of it is their sort of their timeliness,
et cetera. All presents and who they are you see

(06:16):
them physically.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
No, it's interesting, Yeah, it's interesting that Bender even gets
there on time. He feels like he would roll up
a little late. He also feels like he'd be a
what we'd call affectionately a super senior, someone who has
is like a fifth year senior, because he just looked like,
I know this is very much movies, but he looks
so much older age wist five, even though he was

(06:40):
only twenty four the actor when he filmed it, which
kind of blew my mind.

Speaker 5 (06:45):
I mean, oh sorry, I was just gonna say, maybe
I'm delusional, but I think I look younger than all
of these people as I was watching this.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
Well, I think that's true for the eighties right now,
everybody looks thirty five and like they have a full
mortgage when they are in high school.

Speaker 4 (07:02):
Yeah, he looked like a real big grown adult to me.

Speaker 3 (07:05):
Oh yeah yeah. And I mean you go back and
like there's somebody who put together a meme of the
Cheers actors and put their ages on, and I was like,
just no, get out of here, because they were all
like thirty two and they looked like perpetually forty eight.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
In terms of bender, what I felt like I noticed
right away is he's probably getting hurt at home based
on his cockiness, based on his I'm also surprised that
he showed up because he also feels like a kid
who wouldn't even come to detention, Like why show him
to detention?

Speaker 1 (07:38):
Well, because it's probably better than being.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
At home exactly right, exactly, which is also why it's
interesting that he shows up and he is on time
and he is there just in general.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
And that's what I noticed right away.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
I just feel like with all of his posturing and
all of his different like the way that he's trying
to influence the dynamic so that he can have some
kind of like say or like some kind of control
or some kind of like one up on everybody else,
which makes a lot of sense when if your experience

(08:12):
is getting the shit beat out of you or getting
screened at or yelled at or getting put in your
place all the time, that for a teenager would make
a lot of sense that that's how he would kind
of come off. So I felt like I also felt
more like his clothes looked really well used, like he's
had him for a long time, like maybe they've like
maybe he hasn't, And also like maybe part of the

(08:34):
reason why they don't fit is because they're old clothes,
like he's not because he's not getting taken care.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
Of, yeah, like hand me downs or like goodwill clothes
or like things that you get at like garage sales
or stuff like that. And I and also all the
layers he's wearing. I think talking about his clothes is
interesting you bringing that up, Molly, because I think also
all the layers he wears is probably because he has
to walk everywhere. Yeah, and trying to make that look

(09:00):
like a look. I think so much of Bender is
trying to take his circumstances and act like it's a choice.
He's making so many kids that I work with who
are having a hard time and who are like quote
unquote behavior problems as a way to kind of like

(09:23):
you were saying, Hannah, as a way to feel more
in control of all these out of control elements, they
will adopt a persona to make it seem like, Oh,
I want to look like this, and I want to
act like this, and I like being in trouble and
I like starting fights, and I don't give a shit
if you think I'm an idiot, because I don't care
if I'm smart. Like all of the posturing you were

(09:43):
saying that he does with like the Moliere comment and
really putting down everybody else in the room is his
way of pretending that he doesn't care that he isn't
a jock, or that he isn't well loved at home
or spoiled or everything that the other kids have that

(10:04):
he doesn't to make it seem like a choice he's
making feels so much more obviously like empowering than the
actual truth, which is how much of his life is
genuinely like so sad and miserable, and how so much
of the markings of him are due to being abused

(10:25):
and not taken care.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
Of, horribly abused and burned with a cigar. And you
see none of his clothes fit. Yeah, the jackets rolled up,
the boots and the pants are clearly oversized. And I
don't know if the bandana around the boot was a
style choice. We didn't get enough shots of it, if

(10:48):
that was just a thing that you know, ten years
too young to understand, or if that was like he
just didn't have laces and he had to make do.

Speaker 5 (10:57):
And Kunky Brewster and I will say, for all the
things we've said about John Bender as a general vibe
and a look so far, and apologies for interrupting, Ben,
I just got so excited. I do hope that John
Bender feels empowered wherever he is today, knowing that his

(11:19):
style in this movie is the most evergreen and the
one that this day, I would shank someone at the.

Speaker 4 (11:27):
Goodwill to get that coat that he is wearing in
the intro.

Speaker 5 (11:32):
He probably likes to Oh my god, there's nothing about
his outfit that I really wouldn't try so hard to
get and have that. That's so my look as a
adult woman. And I really do think that he's the
only one in this movie. While so many looks are classic,
he's the only one whose style anyone is still chasing.

Speaker 3 (11:51):
Oh yeah, I think he's like, absolutely the template of
nineties grunge. I think every band that was like for
that whole look was trying to copy John Bender. I mean,
Jeral did That's come back.

Speaker 1 (12:05):
Jared Leto wouldn't exist as he currently does if it
wasn't for this look on John Bender in the Breakfast Club.

Speaker 5 (12:11):
Because there Belano, Yes, there be no Jordan, and you're
so right. Yeah, No, he really is the archetype for
that guy. I mean, I don't know Jordan at least
had the kindness to be polite in class. I mean Bender,
really it's rough when he gets in an environment.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
I'm also curious if he has any sort of like
learning disabilities, because there does seem to be like, I
don't know, I always I got the sense maybe I'm
just reading too much like that his like reading comprehension
was kind of poor. But I think also something to
be aware of is when you grew up in a
traumatizing household, you are potentially getting head injuries on a

(12:54):
regular basis, which affects your brain. Obviously.

Speaker 5 (12:57):
I also do want to say though here there's the
thing is that I am out of my weight class
in terms of being able to hold a candle to
the many things that you guys will illuminate throughout this
entire movie. I'm sure like you got guys are just
really so fun to listen to and honestly a little scary.

(13:17):
I'm gonna be real with you. I had some real woman,
not just because I was literally cleaning my bathroom as
I was listening to Pocket. I had some real woman
in the mirror moments when I was listening to You're
Never Been Kissed episode where I was like, don't look
in the mirror right now, like just stare at the
bottle of four oh nine and keep spraying bitch because
they are talking about you.

Speaker 3 (13:38):
So associate, dissociate more, dissociate more.

Speaker 5 (13:41):
Literally, it's not even about I'm just trying to get
the cat's letterbox clean and clean the whole little half
bath down so she has a whole space. But I
I was I was gonna say that I do.

Speaker 4 (13:55):
I am riddled with learning disabilities.

Speaker 5 (13:57):
And I was thinking about that a lot as I
was watching the movie, Like, I'm definitely neurotypical, Like I
don't feel like I need to announce my diagnoses, but.

Speaker 4 (14:08):
I will ADHD for sure.

Speaker 5 (14:10):
I was diagnosed as dyslexic, but and I feel as
though I'm dyslexic based on my understanding of dyslexia. But like,
and not just in a way that it's like, oh,
my TikTok algorithm is telling me I'm on the spectrum.
I mean like literally my commenters will be like, Molly,
You're on the spectrum.

Speaker 4 (14:30):
Like, and I don't mean that in a way that I.

Speaker 5 (14:32):
Think is negative. I think that would actually explain a
lot and that I do relate to Bender in some
ways in that sort of having to build up an
exterior because I had to do kind of what I
think Bender does a little bit what you're suggesting. I
had to do that when I was like transitioning to Okay,
I'm Molly, the girl who's tried so hard to be

(14:55):
a good student and is very afraid of bad behavior,
but I want to be I want to work in comedy,
and so I had to like really build up a
veneer in almost a false persona of like coolness that
I've realized now might have just been heavily masking. And
I'm like, oh, like all the times people said I

(15:15):
was cool and I didn't, I was like, oh, that's
nice that they think that, Like, maybe I really did
put on a false veneer without even realizing where people
don't even know how to read it except for oh,
maybe that's cool at this time, though, I don't think
you were allowed to be an individual so much in
this part of Illinois, so oh, for sure, there's no

(15:38):
sense of that.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
No. John Bender was probably having to find his little
small freak show metal head areas to kind of really
wild out in. But I know something you had brought up, Ben,
like in our chap before we recorded, was the idea
of I think you said like social armor, armer roll armor,
and how that's what you were just saying, Mom made

(16:00):
me think of that. And also how trying to act
like like this is my persona, this is masking to
mask like my horrible family life, to mask my possible
learning stuff. Because also if you have active trauma chronically
at home, your ability to learn is shit in a

(16:22):
lot of ways. Like some kids can pull it off,
and for some kids you're so distracted all the time
by your life outside of school that you can't focus
and you can't do well. And how in the eighties especially,
and before the eighties even the nineties too, kids like
Bender weren't being thought of for like adhd or for

(16:44):
like that he's having trouble at home or focusing or
something like that. He would just be considered maybe dumb
and a problem kidd Claes, Yeah, put in like special
ed as they would have said, and really been neglected
in that space as well.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
I think that's all likely, and it's very true that
people develop differently neurocognitively when they're under distress. And Molly,
I appreciate you being willing to share what you've had
to go through and recognizing that because it's helpful to
people to hear that real people who have made something
of themselves have these things and live with them and

(17:26):
can see themselves in these characters that have a history too,
because all of us do. As a point of the film,
we all have a history and it affects us, It
shapes us, It makes us interact with our surroundings differently.
And I think the comments you're making about John are
really on point, Brittany, And I think the only thing

(17:48):
that I want to add to it is that John
isn't afraid of anybody or anything there because none of
them are as scary as his dad.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (17:57):
Oh yeah, you're going to beat the shit out of me.
I've been training to get this shit kicked out of
me my whole life. I think what is interesting, though,
is the only time he does seem scared is when
he's cornered in when he's locked basically in solitary confinement
by the principle. In that, I guess what kind of

(18:19):
I don't know what kind of yes, prie closet and
the principal, who's an asshole and should be put in
prison with public, yeah, starts berating him and then starts
to goad him into a fight, and then he flinches
when the teacher principle like fake swings at him, and

(18:41):
I do think that is the time in the movie
where we see Bender probably having a trauma reaction, like
being in an enclosed space with an adult male who
has power over him, like legit power over him, being ostracized.
And it's also the only time when he really isn't
perf he doesn't have an audience, and so I think

(19:03):
that is where we see probably the truest presentation of
what Bender is like at home, and that I think
that's a spot on what you say, Ben, because that's
the only time we really see him seeming meek and
scared is in that environment because he is no one
to perform for, and he probably feels really trapped. And

(19:24):
I don't know how it isn't I don't know, so
much of his dynamic with that principle feels like he's
recreating his dynamic with his father, and it's so upsetting.

Speaker 3 (19:35):
Oh, it was horrible. I was so angry at that.
I think Judd Nelson's acting was terrific in that scene,
as watching his eyes go so wide, his nostrils flaring,
his heart rate was clearly up and blood pressure up
all of the things that you would expect to see
in someone that is starting to actively dissociate into a part,

(19:56):
and it wasn't the part that he'd been demonstrating the
whole time, where he was putting on that role armor
of I'm going to be the class clown, the antagonist.
You can't touch me. I'm so edgy that I'm going
to unnerve all of you so bad and knock you
off your game and show you all the things you
think matter don't matter to me at all. But the

(20:19):
principle called him on his shit, but did it in
the most cruel way possible by isolating him, cornering him,
and causing a mixture of a freeze, and in a
peace response, he had to surrender. He had to surrender,
and he did not want to, and he didn't ultimately

(20:39):
after he got out of that spot where he was
clearly dangerous. But the principle activated all of his trauma
of being likely put in a similar situation and actually
beaten to the point that he had to freeze and
stop himself from even defending himself. Because that mechanism in
our brain exists for when we passively read the situation,

(21:03):
they're subconsciously read the situation and see I cannot win.
It doesn't matter what I do, I cannot win. And
therefore my options are comply or shut up and freeze,
because anything I do will make it worse. And anybody
that thinks that they would do X, Y or Z
in a situation and behave differently isn't in that situation

(21:26):
and hasn't been physically overpowered because there is something inside
of all of us that tells us you will lose.
Imagine a dude that's six foot six, built like a
brick shit house, steps out of whatever car you've been
honking at and lets you know that he's about to
fuck your world up. If you say one more thing,
you're going to shut up.

Speaker 1 (21:44):
This principle does make thirty one thousand dollars a year,
so you should respect him.

Speaker 5 (21:47):
I literally just look this up because I could not
move off that number, honey, And like I literally am
not trying to be a capricorn, but I could not
move off the number. So it is ninety three thousand,
eight hundred and forty seven dollars and thirty five cents
today for the same for a thirty one K salary,
and that area of Illinois is incredibly pricey, but the

(22:10):
idea that he was already a homeowner at that salary. Honestly,
if I was making ninety three thousand dollars a year
and I was him, I'd still be driving uber at night,
and you can't do that when you're the school principal.

Speaker 4 (22:25):
I'd be wanting to hit that hundred k.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Well, it's probably why he's working Saturday detention. Oh, probably
making over time.

Speaker 5 (22:33):
Yeah, that's why he wants to keep Bender there. He's
a true capitalist freak. He doesn't care about Bender much
like sadly so many adults in Bender's life.

Speaker 4 (22:43):
It's he's exploiting.

Speaker 3 (22:44):
Him, right, I mean, and I loved that scene that
happened after that with the principal and Carl the custodian,
where it's so effective a character Karl was. When Karl
Or caught him digging through the files, the principle was saying, like,
it just discussed me that these kids are going to

(23:04):
be the one taking over our country blah blah blah
boom or speak and then.

Speaker 5 (23:08):
Taking care of me someday. Right, Oh, you're going to
be taking care of me someday.

Speaker 3 (23:14):
And he said, don't count on it.

Speaker 4 (23:16):
Yeah, I do. He was the Carl is like kind
of really the star of the movie.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
I agree, He's like the wise sage that I feel
like a lot of times plays custodians.

Speaker 4 (23:28):
I've called two people a star of the movie so far.

Speaker 5 (23:30):
But I mean that I'm blocking in my stars of
the movie, because that's.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
It blocking in now. Yeah, yeah, and I think, I guess.
I mean, I plan to talk about Bender during treatment.
But one thing I do want to touch upon here that's.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
A Bengo mark for those of you that are catching. Yeah,
tracking is.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
The way that that principle interacts with Bender is the
worst possible way you can engage with a kid like Bender,
because one, why are you power struggling with a teenager?
You look like a fucking idiot. The amount and it's
easy to I mean, it's not hard to do. I
worked with little kids with behavior problems, and the amount

(24:12):
of times that I would have to stop and be like, Brittany,
are you about to continue arguing, like doing a back
and forth with a nine year old who has like
a severe mental health problem, like grow up, shut up,
and like take a breather from like just the way
that he allows Bender to get his goat is so

(24:33):
textbooks immature, and I think continues to reiterate for kids
like Bender, like what, you're not showing him any other
way to be like this idea that adults will put
on kids and adolescents that they should know how to
behave like people once they like exit the womb, and

(24:54):
it's like, no, kids and teenagers are being shown by
the adults in their life how to engage with the
world and how to try other people. So when you
are acting exactly like him, what other option are you
sure you're not showing him modeling anything different in terms
of how to deal with someone who pisses you off,
who upsets you, who annoys you, and also with a

(25:15):
kid like Bender, that he's already written himself off in
the sense of he's not going to be a kid
that gets attention and accolades, like positive attention and accolades
and success in this very specific way. So he's just
going to throw himself into this persona we've been talking about,
and so there's no hope in him, and so he's

(25:38):
going to ride the power struggle wave as far as
I mean that whole like back and forth with giving
him like eight weeks of Saturday detentions is so stupid,
and obviously the punishment is not correcting his behavior, so
it's also pointless. And why wouldn't he just keep doing that?
He is nothing else going on. He has no hope
for something to turn around. And the way that the

(26:01):
principal confirms that in the supply closet, what would motivate
a kid like Bender to change nothing? And what's going
to give him the confidence to change nothing? Is just
piece of shit? He's telling you. You're telling me he's
a piece.

Speaker 2 (26:17):
Of shit and threatening you're threatening him with physical harm, Like, yeah,
what are.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
You showing him about the world other than it's full
of violent adults?

Speaker 5 (26:27):
Like the real world experience is the only thing that
you get to enjoy when you're sort of othered right
in high school. And I think that he's sort of
comfortably fallen into this role that just makes sense for him,
or that's passive or easy to be in b because
he can't show up full blown to any other area

(26:48):
of his life he does. He's not financially well off,
he's not he's the support system at home, et cetera,
et cetera. But yeah, I have a like can I
ask a fan, oh you guys okay? So like and
now in today's like sort of pop psychology world with
some with that scene with Bender and the principle.

Speaker 4 (27:11):
In the supply closet.

Speaker 5 (27:14):
I think everyone now would look at a teacher wanting
to go into a closet with a student and confront
him like a man. You look at that like as
an idea, and it's like, oh, this guy has like
some weird sexual deviant behavior. Who wants to do that
to a high school student? Like Jesus christ Man, they're
just high school students. But I'm wondering, like if you

(27:36):
can kind of hone in on that thing of like
we're at the time, I feel like this was a
very common theme of a guy that like wanted to
beat up a younger man or suppress him Smith. I
feel like, what was if you were to do reverse
inflation where now we start out at euro pedophile, What
do you think they would have called him back in
the day, like as hard as diagnosis?

Speaker 4 (27:57):
Hard ass? What drives that?

Speaker 3 (28:01):
I think you mean, you're already already on it that
it's somebody that he's feeling unsatisfied in his life and
threatened by the freedom of spirit that Bender has. That
the dialogue with Carl showed that he'd clearly lost the
luster and enjoyment of life and realized that whatever he
thought his life was going to be, it isn't. It's
become formulaic and he's trapped. So he's resentfully trying to

(28:26):
trap other people and not let them have enjoyment he
didn't have.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah, I mean, he's like classic someone who's become a
bully as an adult yep, in that he feels disempowered
and feels like I think he thinks he's a loser.
And I don't know if he would admit that he
thinks he's a loser or that he is one. But
you can see in those moments when he has moments
to himself where he kind of looks like there's one

(28:51):
moment where after he like yells at them. Maybe it's
the detention eight detentions in a Row thing where he
goes in the hallway and he kind of has this
like eyes closed moment where he looks a little disappointed
in himself that he went there and then he kind
of lost control ish, But he just feels like someone
who has to constantly assert control. There are so many

(29:13):
more old school adults who have this very like toxic
masculinity generational power shit where they're like, I have to
get other people to submit to me, and I can't
tolerate anything but submission because of how I get my

(29:35):
feelings of ego and power and him. Well, yeah, nowadays,
if you like took a kid in the supply closet
with you and then there was a lot of noise
and then you came out, that would be crazy to see.
But at my high school they used to paddle kids
until the late eighties early nineties. Like with paddles, I

(29:57):
had a science teacher who would brag about how hard
you could paddle kids.

Speaker 4 (30:00):
Back when the public.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
School yep, they in Illinois they allowed it. I think
it's for one, maybe two years. The school district I
went to it was my primary school, so third through
fifth grade was the way my ton broke it up.
And we had a principal that the school board allowed
to paddle kids, and he definitely tried to intimidate us.

(30:24):
There was one moment where I was in the principal's office,
probably for fighting, and like the principal like literally took
his paddle out and like whacked the radiator with it,
and like tried to intimidate us. And he did use
it on kids. I don't think he used it very often,
but there was moments where that happened. And I think

(30:45):
remembering that these people that would have been this age,
particularly ten years before this principle I had because he
was a bit younger, maybe forty then. But these people
all grew up with parents that likely were in World
War two, and World War two reached such a vaunted

(31:07):
status in the cultural zeitegase that nothing anybody could ever
do that they ever would match up to as cool
or as significant, as important as to what these people did.
And they never told the truth of their stories. They
just went in the garage and got drunk as shit
because of the horrible stuff that they saw on the

(31:30):
trauma that they had that never got treated. But then
nobody's stories could ever ever ever match their significance, because
if their pain and the losses that they suffered loss significance,
then they would be doing their friends who died to service,
and they passed that on to their children aka are

(31:50):
parents who struggled with going to their own wars. That
was rejected by society, and they were met with cruelty
and called horrible things for the horrible things that they did.
That weren't probably a whole lot different in what happened
in World War Two, but it's all more politically complicated,
and then playing all that shit out on these kids
that are trying to live a free life, free of war.

(32:10):
There was no war in the eighties. The eighties was
a peaceful time these kids.

Speaker 4 (32:16):
There war.

Speaker 3 (32:19):
No like there was the first time in a long
time there was no war. I mean there were some conflicts,
but none of it was full scale like Vietnam. Like
this guy would have watched his friends go to and
stuff and maybe did, but yeah, you see how people
play out that shit, and I think he was there
to serve as kind of a foil of like like

(32:40):
a Carl or the principle could be different types of
people that Bender would encounter or be later that like
or maybe Andrew would be, I guess, but that that
bully type that was couldn't actualize because something somebody put
a brick on him. And now because other people are
showing some freedom, he's going to put a brick on

(33:00):
anybody showing that free spirit, so that they get their
dreams crushed like his and be successful, median income earning
folks that find safety through getting their spirits crushed, because
that's what we do to care for these kids. We
crush the individually out of them. Individually. Individually, I ouent
I have lips that work, yes.

Speaker 4 (33:21):
But like you're so wild. I always laugh about how
you know, the Chris Farley character, like.

Speaker 5 (33:25):
Living in a van down by the river, Like that
character was supposed to be thirty two years old, and
it's like it's so like, which is crazy to think
about as a four year old woman who literally am
like I actually would like living and like if someone
would come and like make it all all the parts
work and stuff like that for me. If some if
I could hire someone full time to make sure I

(33:47):
comfortably live in a van, I think I could do that.

Speaker 4 (33:51):
But the whole point of that era what I.

Speaker 5 (33:54):
Remember sort of having a friend gently point out to
me when I was sort of marveling at that in
more recent times, it's like Molly, back then, if you
didn't have like a family and a house and like
an important job where you were making a lot of money,
if you weren't balling out. If you didn't have a
rolex or someone who was going to give you a rolex,
you were a fucking loser, right, And I was like, WHOA,

(34:18):
Like that actually is a very important cultural context because
I've always thought thirty two was such a and I
think maybe also that's like maybe a little bit of
a joke on a joke with a thirty two year old,
but like it's I forgot that this was a very
trying time to be someone who wasn't living as a
full blown capitalist or at the top of their white

(34:41):
male game.

Speaker 3 (34:43):
Definitely true.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
So anything else you want to say about Bender before
we take a break.

Speaker 3 (34:49):
I think it's it was a critical power shift that
Bender showed after Andrew took his ass down h quickly, Yeah,
and like White knighted him and it was like, look, bitch,
I will fold you up, okay, And then Bender just
was like, didn't even fight him. But when he got

(35:09):
up and produced that switchblade. I think that was a
moment of like exhibiting the actual stark danger that Bender
and someone like him that's been that victimized would understandably
carry a weapon, yeah, and need to shift the power
balance back. That knife probably had his dad's name on it,

(35:32):
and that if his dad hit him one more goddamn time, Yeah,
that there was going to be a murder scene at
his house.

Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah, he probably sleeps with that knife under his pillow.

Speaker 3 (35:42):
I guarantee that's his most prized possession.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
The priority of safety for a kid like Bender is
so big.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
And why we need to be careful and mindful that
we don't just run up and put our hands on
people or think that you know, just because you're more
athletically gifted or whatever, that's somebody that you have less
to lose than they do.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
Well, we'll take a break, there will be right back.
So shifting sharply but feels poetic to shift from Bender
to Claire, as Bender can't leave Claire the fuck alone
the whole movie nope, which we haven't even touched upon
that part of it. But Claire is the popular girl,

(36:25):
the perfect girl, the prom queen esque girl. But I
think she's this person that when watching, well, when observing
someone like her, you would think that she has no problems.
And I think what's so interesting and well written about
this movie is that every kids so different, and every
kid still has problems, and she has a very specific

(36:50):
kind of problem, which was also I wonder how novel
even in like the early eighties, which is having parents
that we're maybe going to get divorced and kind of
maybe living like this separate well, the separate life thing
was probably pretty common. But I don't know what are
your thoughts, Hannah about, because I know you and I
were talking about the clear dynamic with her parents.

Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, I think that something that seems pretty evident with
her conversation that she has with her dad in the
car is that she is being triangulated in the marriage
she is getting there instead of talking to each other,
they're giving information to her, or they are using her
as a distraction from their other problems they are they

(37:36):
are very much putting her in a role where now
she has to try and appease both of them and
be okay with the way that they treat her. And
that's pretty common in terms of especially with a couple
that maybe isn't getting along very well, or a couple
that's having a lot of marital strife, or they don't
feel connected to each other and they only feel like parents.

(37:58):
Sometimes people really lean into the parent role where they
kind of lose a part of their individuality in some ways,
and so sometimes when that happens in marriages, and then
the kid is actually the one who has to take
on all the slack and all the flack for everything
that's going on in the family. And so I think
that clear is is being used by both of her

(38:21):
parents where neither one of them have to confront anything
or do anything different, but she has to sit with.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
All the discomfort. She also feels like an only child.
I don't know if that's confirmed or disproved in the mind.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
I don't know that she does.

Speaker 5 (38:37):
Brother because because at one point someone said to her,
I believe it was bender if you had to go
live with your mom.

Speaker 4 (38:45):
Oh God, who would you pick?

Speaker 5 (38:47):
And she said, I probably just go live with my brother.
And I thought that was actually very interesting as an
only child. Uh and I'm sorry a lot of my
commentary will be self centered, uh and ilge, but I
was thinking that as like an only child. I was like, damn,
that's fucking interesting to be like I gotta get if

(39:08):
I'm going to get out of my home situation, maybe
I'll go live with my brother.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
Yeah, which I don't know where I thought only child,
because I remember writing down that line in terms of
how telling, well, one, it made me feel hopeful that
she has a positive relationship and basically an escape via
her brother and sounds like he must live out of
the house already, which is also telling, not like did

(39:32):
he get out as soon as he could?

Speaker 3 (39:34):
Well, and also you know that energy of only child,
that brother could be old enough. True that she feels
like an only child and has only child energy.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
Well, she's the only kid in the house, right, so
her parents.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
Feel very high school sweetheart, or like they got pregnant
really fast, and like she has like an older brother
who is be a lot older than her and that's
why they're together, that's why their.

Speaker 3 (40:00):
Marriage sucks, or a second marriage or a second marriage.
And Bennie, you would ask something about Hannah was making
such great points that I was shutting myself up because
I didn't want to interrupt, because Hannah's awesome. Is no Brittany.
You said something about like wondering, like with the time period,
what the divorce is, right, So I was curious about

(40:20):
that and went on an adventure and looking up the
divorce rate per thousand, So in nineteen seventy it would
have been fifteen per one thousand fifteen marriages depending in
divorce per one thousand, But that number jumped to twenty
three in the eighties and dropped back down, and that

(40:41):
was the highest it's ever been including now now it's
at a fifty year low.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
Well, people aren'tetting married, that's why.

Speaker 3 (40:50):
Well, no, it this would only count married people. But
people are getting married later and for their own reasons.

Speaker 4 (40:58):
Yeah, not for pregnancy.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
Since when I DJed weddings, I noticed when I started,
because I DJed weddings from two thousand and nine to
probably seventeen, that the weddings that I did in the
early years around two and nine twenty ten, many people
were kind of just out of college and at twenty
three twenty four range. But by the time I was done,

(41:20):
the average age of people getting married was thirty one.
There are a lot, a lot of shifts that happened,
and I think this would have been a part of
a wave of social stain on her entire little social
richie rich world where her parents were getting a divorce,

(41:43):
and that would have been both a thing a lot
of people were starting to go through, but still be
pretty new and probably made her some kind of pariah.
That made her feel all sorts of ways about herself
and her safety that contribute to how she presents.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
I think, yeah, it seemed like her parents were doing
the thing that people would do instead of get divorced,
which is spend absolutely no time together. Like there's a
few references and also jabs that Bender makes about her mom,
just like being drunk on the Caribbean and just kind
of maybe spending time away and being an alcoholic, and

(42:19):
Claire does kind of insinuate, well more than insinuate, that
her mom is the more hard volatile parent with like
that'll like hold rules and say you're grounded, and that
her dad is the more permissive one. And their relationship
actually is the one that gave me a lot of
kind of icky feelings. Not so much that I think

(42:41):
he was necessarily like doing something to her, but I
think he was definitely doing that thing that some of
his parents can do where he is dissatisfied with his wife,
so he's kind of putting his daughter in that sort
of partner role where he's like giving her a big
ears and he's being too affectionate with her, and he's

(43:04):
like putting all of his love that should go to
a spouse onto his daughter and it's gross, yes, and
you can tell that she isn't into it, like in
the car when he drops her off and he's being
really like, it's okay that that does She's like, she
does have this look on her face like her dad's
giving her the ick, like I'm good, like I want

(43:28):
to go and not be here and being caught in
that dynamic where the mom probably sees that. I'm sure
she does. And I wonder if that also causes a
lot of damage to the mom's relationship to Claire in
that sort of way where because.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
Then it feels like a competition right between the daughter
and the mom for his attention. Then so then there's
a chance that that absolutely has it creates a bear
between her and connecting with her mom.

Speaker 3 (44:02):
Oh yeah. And it seemed like not only is it that,
but the dad based on her dialogue because we don't
see it right, but it seems like from her dialogue,
her perception of it is that her dad is using
that on purpose. It's not even genuine, that he's weaponizing
it to make the mom jealous and kind of override

(44:24):
whatever things mom has come up with. And her first
comment to him is Daddy, why didn't you get me
out of this? That's her first line in the movie.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
Mm hmm ye. So and then he's like very i know,
like acquiescing to her in a way that gives me
the weirds.

Speaker 3 (44:40):
Yeah, I'll buy you a pony or whatever afterwards said yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
And then it does make sense if you trickle it
down to her presentation at school, because what Claire is
learning is how to be sort of a product, how
she's not really a person and she is a she's
our own persona. She is like a little figurine in
her household. And so then she goes to school, and

(45:07):
she's also kind of like a figuring a Barbie doll
at school, Like it's all about external pressure, external validation
who she is to other people. And no, there's no
curiosity from her parents or from her peers about who
is Claire though underneath like who is actually Claire? Like

(45:30):
what is Claire like? And obviously, because it's so easy
to do in your teenager anyway, that becomes her persona.
Like how defensive she gets in the scene when they
do the whole horrible like would you still talk to
us on Monday thing? And she's like, well, you don't
get it, like she's very aware of like the social rules. Yeah,

(45:52):
and it does seem to feel understandably like picked on
when all the other kids are dogpiling on her for
being so attached to the social roles and rules. But
that's like like the wasp kind of thing, Like when
you're a wasp and it's so much like image based
and facade based and you aren't a real person, You're

(46:13):
like a blow up doll.

Speaker 3 (46:15):
Yeah. I mean, even her special talent is that she
can put on her makeup with ercouraged lipstick centered in
her cleavage. Of all the special things they're talking about
that she can do, that's what she's given. I thought
that was profoundly said honestly.

Speaker 5 (46:31):
Well honestly though, Ben, if you were called to task
to be in a talent show out of nowhere, like
what would your talent be?

Speaker 4 (46:40):
Like a lot of us do not have.

Speaker 5 (46:43):
Actually, maybe that's a little bit of a rhetorical and
say if Ben, if you know six talents you would have, well, congratulations,
because I would sit there and not have a fucking.

Speaker 4 (46:53):
Clue what to do.

Speaker 5 (46:55):
I would if I had didn't know already how to
apply lipstick in my cleavage, I'd be trying to improve it,
and if it didn't work out, i'd say, yeah, it's
like a comedy bit, like that's my special talent.

Speaker 4 (47:06):
But can I just really quickly.

Speaker 5 (47:09):
Say though, for all of Claire's like sort of faux vapidness,
I think they really land her character very well, and
that her wealth is like I would say, appropriate, like it,
it doesn't feel outlandish or weird. They do belong in
the same school district all of these people, for sure,
And I'm from Lexington, mass which is like a very

(47:31):
bougie town on paper, it's one of the best school
systems in Massachusetts. But at the same time, like you know,
my I was. My mom was a single mom who
had me and we lived in an apartment on the outskirts,
which I feel like might might be true of some
people economically in this movie, specifically Bender, But I think

(47:53):
Bender would maybe even be more of a true towny.
But if you were to look at someone like Claire, okay,
maybe you're family settled there, like after the dad moved
from one coast or another, the family sort of wound
up in Chicago, and you can just tell, like, yes,
she has sushi for lunch, but she's never probably been

(48:13):
to Japan.

Speaker 4 (48:14):
When they're like, where do you want to be, She's like,
I wish I was on a plane to France.

Speaker 5 (48:19):
And if you were to shove this movie down like
three tax brackets, Like, she is not that much different
than a girl in a single family home who has
a bedroom that is like London or Paris themed, Like,
she's not obscenely wealthy, and so while like her privilege, definitely,

(48:42):
Tinga is like her character quite a bit. I would
say that it's not overwhelmingly so or not cartoonishly so.
I also like it's one of those things where she's
very pretty, but like for like a redhead, like I mean,
you would assume that she's popular, at least large in
part due to her wealth. I mean, to be a

(49:02):
popular redhead, even as pretty as Molly Ringwald is, to
be a popular fucking like top of the list redhead
in nineteen eighty four, like you had to have some
major cashi.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because she plays in sixteen Candles, right,
and she plays the polar opposite in a lot of
ways of this character, the lonely virgin nerd who people
can't even remember it's her birthday, like an invisible girl.
And I think you're right in that there is a

(49:36):
she's operating from, like a social class, like not like
a like you said, like an absurdly wealthy one. But
I wouldn't be shocked if all the girls that she's
friends with now their parents all hang out, their parents
all go to maybe like the same nice country club,
and their moms went to the same like I don't know,

(49:58):
jazz or science class.

Speaker 5 (50:00):
There's some other way that you get ingratiated into the
popular group at that school, for sure. And I think
it could exist around a country club.

Speaker 3 (50:08):
Yes, or whose parents are partying and like who's hosting stuff? Yeah,
I think it's all of the above. That there's some
way that you're part of the cool class or not.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
And if she lost her status like the BMW and
all that stuff, that it would probably have a big
impact on her status within her friend group.

Speaker 3 (50:29):
Probably.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
Yeah, So what.

Speaker 4 (50:32):
Would her standing be without that?

Speaker 5 (50:33):
That's her standing? Her ol standing is that like, I'm
the girl who has diamond earrings and eats sushi and detention.
That is before we know anything else, especially because we
do know she's apprude, I mean really everything you said
about her character in sixteen Candles. The only difference I
could thing is that people in this movie, because she's popular,
they probably do remember her birthday. Yeah, otherwise, and maybe

(50:57):
the house was overstuffed, but otherwise, I mean it's kind
of this character.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
Yeah, because the parents do have a pretty big, nice
house in sixteen Candles. I mean, the older sister is
kind of what she's playing in this movie. Is the
older sister in sixteen Candles? Does the older sister and
sixteen Candles marry Carl the janitor actress?

Speaker 5 (51:18):
Actually, you know what that does sound right because you
would reuse the worlds a lot. But I mean it's
better the older sister than long duck dong, you know
what I mean?

Speaker 1 (51:25):
Oh my god, I don't even know if we can
ever do sixteen Candles because of that.

Speaker 4 (51:28):
I can't.

Speaker 5 (51:29):
No, you can, but I will say it has It's
gonna be a learning curve. I'll tell you that much,
because you're gonna have to say the entire time, Well,
we just want to acknowledge that you can't even talk
like it's one of those things where you're gonna feel
guilty talking about it unless you can really you're good
at your job.

Speaker 4 (51:45):
You know how to do that?

Speaker 3 (51:46):
Mm hmm, yeah, it'll get shredded. Like I hope you
don't like this movie if you listen to the show,
because you won't after it.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
But I think, like, yeah, the whole point of Claire
kind of is that she doesn't have a point outside
of her status and outside of her image. Like I
don't know who Claire would be if she didn't have
this wealth as her personality or this position as her personality.
It doesn't seem like she knows who she is either.

(52:15):
Like a lot of the questions she gets asked, including
the hidden talent, she doesn't really have solid answers to,
And I wonder if anyone ever really asks her. You know,
her parents are probably so far of each other's asses
with their cattiness that they aren't paying attention to her,
and they aren't trying to foster her as like an individual.

Speaker 4 (52:36):
She's she's a poem, she's her daddy's wife.

Speaker 5 (52:40):
Yeah, don't you think and that, like, you know, with
the mom being gone and everything else. I mean, really,
her job, I feel in life at this point is
to flip through fashion magazines, get along with the right people,
and then maybe like float into a pretty good college
where maybe she'll find her way, but she might not
be at this point. Anyway, she'd be getting her mrs.

(53:02):
You know what I mean, you stay back by.

Speaker 3 (53:04):
Spring, you know Northwestern. I mean like this is where
they would go, and they'd go to the big, expensive,
fancy private school that's right nearby at Northwestern U. And
probably exactly that, get the mrs and find somebody that's
a pseudo version of her dad. I think that's exactly right.
She's mom is no longer willing to be Dad's arm

(53:27):
candy and trophy, so now she is.

Speaker 5 (53:30):
And and mrs wasn't like a slur back then, like
that was considered like, oh good for her.

Speaker 2 (53:36):
And I think and actually I was thinking, I don't
even know if she'd go to college. I don't even
know if her dad would be supporting that. I feel
like I feel like her goal really would be to.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
Get her mrs. Like I feel like that's the goal
that she would feel.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
Like is important, and that her dad would probably feel
like is important. And if he's the one influencing, if
he's the one who manages the money, like.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
There's a whole.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
I don't know. I don't know if she'd be encouraged
to go to college. I don't know if she's being
encouraged because the way that her dad looks at her
and the way that even her mother looks at herself
seems to be as I'm an object and that's all
that I'm that's the only role that I'm allowed to play.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
Yeah, which is probably why she feels like her only
potential is to escape entirely and go to her brother,
and then maybe there she can become a person.

Speaker 5 (54:29):
Fan theory, I think her brother lives in Japan, and
that's what the sushi is a reference to, is maybe
her brother does something cool in Japan. But no, she
would have to go to college because you would be
a loser at that time if you didn't go to college,
like there was no course, no, Like it's I enjoyed
that part of your Never Been Kissed episode as well.

(54:50):
Started keep being referential, but you know, it's it's true
that like there was for most most of my life anyway,
like if you didn't go to college, you were a loser.
And now I think, oh my god, if I if
I came into a kid, evolve a sudden, I had
a kid and they said, what do I do with
my life? I'd say, don't worry about college right now,

(55:12):
And that was never the memo I got. And so
this whole actually a lot of this movie I think
centers around being on the precipice of potentially higher education,
which is a stressor.

Speaker 4 (55:26):
I'm sure you all know.

Speaker 1 (55:27):
It does make me wonder though, kind of I'll take
them a middle road between Molly and Hannah in that
my mom was the first person in her family to
go to college as and especially as like a woman.
She's first there some period, but she was probably went
to college like only maybe a few years before this movie,

(55:48):
and her family, her parents discouraged her from going to
college because they were like, you're gonna be a spinster,
that it was not a feminine look to be that educated.
So it could be very different between like seventy nine
eighty and like eighty four. But I do know my

(56:10):
mom had that experience, and so there's so much of
that poo pooing of women being educated around that time
that I think it could go either way, depending on
maybe that culture around there.

Speaker 3 (56:25):
Eighty four is what like six years into women being
able to have credit cards and bank accounts with their own.
I wonder why the divorce rate went up, you know,
like they could they could exactly, and those that needed
to had financial means to escape. Now that it's a
bad thing, it's a good thing because bad situation being

(56:46):
bound to it by finances is fucked up. I think
this class of folks that live here would have been
probably pushed towards college. And it's also equally possible that
maybe there's that shame that you're looking at that, like
what do you even doing doing that? Just like get
a husband, your husband, do that?

Speaker 5 (57:06):
Well, what are you gonna do from like eight, like
sit around do cocaine? Like what the hell are you
gonna do with your diet?

Speaker 1 (57:13):
What she'll do is she'll she'll go to the social events.
She'll do She'll do a promenade around the country club.
She'll like waggertail feathers. Hopefully, maybe she'll get a boyfriend
by the time she leaves high school, and then she'll
probably get pressured to marry him. It's surprising that I
think in another movie her and Andrew would have already
been dating and they would have had a couple in

(57:36):
the room.

Speaker 5 (57:37):
I think Andrew's a little beneath her in some ways.
In class, he's I think he's like, well, I think
he's like probably the twelfth or fifteenth most popular guy
in his class, but he's definitely in this circle. But yeah,
I like, what was a woman to do with her

(57:58):
time back then? Because back going back as far as Greece,
we were already shitting on women having a vocation with
like beauty school. Right, you're already a loser for going
to beauty school. Which, by the way, if I could
do one thing differently in my life, it would have
been to like go to beauty school. When I after

(58:18):
I'd gotten my college degree, I wish I had a
vocation like that so badly because it would feel I
would feel very confident falling back on that. And that's
why I was kind of like, later on, we'll see that,
like Bender, there's some attitude around him being more of
a shop guy, and I'm like, I feel like Bender
could financially be the best off out of all these people.

(58:41):
But Andrew, when we first see him get dropped off
at school, his dad's pissy us to drop him off,
not just because his dad's like, I know it sucks
to be there, but the problem is you got caught,
but you can't be doing bad stuff because you're gonna
lose your full ride. And I say without a foot
So without a full ride? What college world are we talking?

(59:03):
What would a woman like Claire do at eighteen if
not go to college? In nineteen eighty four, we were
very like the women in my family were in all
in college in like the fifties, So like, I don't,
I literally never occur. It didn't occur to me that,
But you're right, especially probably in the Midwest, it was
like a homely, weird girl thing to go get a

(59:24):
college education.

Speaker 3 (59:26):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
Yeah, Claire, she probably would just live with her parents
and flounce around until she got a good boyfriend. She'd
probably date. She probably professionally date until she found her husband.
And that's probably what she would do, and just go
to events and go to parties and just be a
Midwest upper class socialite.

Speaker 4 (59:49):
Oh like helping her father. Oh I help my father.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
Yeah, you know, I help at the store.

Speaker 5 (59:55):
Yeah, exactly, that sort of absolutely party plan and event
event coordinator.

Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
That's actually hard.

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
Oh yeah, it's a hard job.

Speaker 5 (01:00:07):
But I feel I do feel like she's that person that,
like after college, you.

Speaker 4 (01:00:11):
Realize like, oh, you're fucking rich, or.

Speaker 5 (01:00:13):
Like after high school when you're someone's like, oh, I'm
just working for my dad, and you realize like later
on that's like slang for like my dad pays.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
For my life, put me on payroll.

Speaker 5 (01:00:25):
But I'm not allowed to say that because yes, because
that's ghost because yeah, because it'd be acknowledging that we're
not rich, rich rich, But we have enough to go around.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
All right, So since we are starting to talk about Andrew,
we will take a break here and be right back
to discuss him more fully. All right, So we are back,
and we're going to talk about our boy Andrew. So
Andrew is the jock, which is funny. I don't think
of Emilio Estevez as the jock type. I feel like

(01:00:57):
I can put him in my pocket. But that's me
also stereo typing him, so shame on me.

Speaker 3 (01:01:01):
I mean, our introduction to him is the coach for
the Mighty Ducks is a professional hockey player, Gordon Bombay.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
That's true, And you're right, like he gets introduced as like, yeah,
he gets introduced as a kid who is probably his dad,
seems working class, he's dependent on our scholarships, so I
has to stay out of trouble. But his dad also
doesn't seem You can tell right away that his dad

(01:01:28):
doesn't seem too fucked up by what he did to
get into detention, like like you were saying, Ben, like
he's more it's the very like I'm sorry I got
caught energy and not like the sorry for what I
actually did.

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
The dad was like Dad wasn't ashamed of what he did.
I think, you know, obviously his self revealing monologue is
pretty powerful of him expressing his actual remorse and regret,
showing actual recognition that what he did was horrible, but
to the introduction of the character is clearly showing that
like Dad has the you know, like he's like a

(01:02:04):
hunting a shooting vest On and he's driving at Ford
Bronco suv like the first suv I think, and kind
of carrying that like sportsman man's man kind of everyman attitude.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
Yeah, And I think what's interesting about Andrew is something
I started noticing early and often with his character is
how atypical he actually is of the mentality of the
stereotypical jock, in that you can see right away that
he is clocking other people, and I can't think of

(01:02:41):
any specific examples off the top of my head in
the beginning, but he is very attuned to other people.
He seems like he has a natural high emotional intelligence,
and he is checking yeah, he's checking in with other people.
He's the first one to defend Claire against Bender, which
also just be him kind of playing the jockey role

(01:03:02):
in some ways. But he's very attuned to everybody in
the group in a way that is very genuinely leadership ESQ.
Which is very sweet. And unfortunately, like a lot of
especially men who are victims of toxic masculinity, that version
of leadership is not appreciated by his father and probably

(01:03:28):
maybe even by the group he is within at school,
and what they consider leadership is more of what we
see with the principle, which is like domination to be
strong and to be a leader is to be I
guess feared more than loved. And Andrew feels like someone
who would actually be very easy to love and very

(01:03:50):
easy to love others if he was allowed.

Speaker 3 (01:03:55):
I think looking at Andrew, I think I think John
Hughes did some interesting writing between Andrew and Bender, and
it kind of flipped a little bit of some of
the stereotypes. Which probably makes this movie so enduring is
that while Bender obviously carries some of the burnout characteristics,
he also carries a lot of that alpha JAQ mentality

(01:04:20):
that you would have seen in other movies of the era,
where the jock who's the hyper confidence, the mask, the
antagonizing others that's controlling the situation would have filled and
Andrew doesn't fit that. He has more of like the
kind of the team captain, the dedicated yeah, like the

(01:04:41):
White Knight kind of attitude of like I'm gonna he's
a tryhard. You know, he may not be the best
athlete in the world, but he's gonna try really really hard,
and sometimes in athletics that actually is enough to get
you somewhere. Like he was wearing a state patch on
his shoulders, so he's clearly been a successful wrestler. To
state in wrestling is pretty fucking hard, actually, and looking

(01:05:04):
at him doing that, but not like carrying that dominant
that Bender does where he's like see me, notice me,
let me control this. I think with some interesting writing
of showing that he can be empathic, he can be thinking.
He's more of a rule follower team player, don't do

(01:05:24):
the wrong things, and also side note, don't get in
my way and like, fuck up my chances to get
out of here, because my entire goal of life is
to get the fuck out of here and build a
new life for myself where I don't have to fight
for scraps of attention with my athletic talent, but instead

(01:05:46):
can shine on my own merits because I'm kind of awesome.
Damn it noticed me beyond what I do.

Speaker 5 (01:05:52):
I felt like, you know, this character rewatching it today.
It is such a love letter in terms of write
to the pre collegiate athlete in every school that reads
as popular because they're fit, they're athletic, they're cool, they

(01:06:13):
hang out with like they they fit in with the
cool guys and like, you know, guys could always use
a couple more cool ones, right, But it.

Speaker 4 (01:06:22):
Also, yeah, it's all.

Speaker 5 (01:06:24):
It also speaks to all the great things you can
get out of athletics as a person, which is exactly
that empathy, that sort of intuition, that paying attention, that mindfulness,
awareness of surroundings like these are all things that are
sort of underappreciated traditionally about athletic people in film, but

(01:06:44):
specifically athletic men, because so often I would say that
the Bender character and the Andrew character is sort of
shrunk into one.

Speaker 4 (01:06:54):
And I do think it's nice that.

Speaker 5 (01:06:55):
This sort of extracts like a real black, white and
gray of life like masculinity and what it looks like.
And I don't think I've ever really appreciated how masterfully
Andrew is written until this watch of the episode. As
a full blown adult who also like appreciates sports now

(01:07:16):
as someone who never appreciated sports, I really see there's
an athlete in him that's so wonderfully represented.

Speaker 3 (01:07:24):
I agree, I think Andrew would have been. He is
the heir of someone who could go pro, like for
real go pro, and is focused on it and fixated
on that, but not so caught up in like the
air of his own bullshit. Like I just keep thinking
of Revenge of the Nerds and how all the jocks
were representing that, and they are all just such like

(01:07:44):
raging assholes that like we're just like gonna do whatever
we want, and like everybody worships us and we're just
so fucking cool. And Andrew carries none of that with him.
He's like a genuine person just trying to make it
and like knows what he's good at. But also he
really does take a step back to acknowledge his flaws

(01:08:04):
and has to break out of the role armory he
has of like I have the status I have because
I'm good at sports. I'm like, actually good at something.
But he knows it, and he knows that's his place,
so he doesn't overshoot it. He's not like the Jackson
something like Revenge of the Nerds or other eighties movies
would have been portrayed as like we have the money
and the looks and the talent, so like even if

(01:08:26):
we fucking lose, like we're still kings around here. And
Andrew is not. And I think that was a nice
flip to show a masterful writing. Like you said, Mallya
like the way you described that, I think it's accurate
as a real person.

Speaker 4 (01:08:40):
Thanks.

Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
Yeah, and such good acting by Amelia Estevez. The whole
monologue when they're sitting in the circle. I keep thinking
about the scene where he starts to his voice starts
to break and he's talking about Larry, the kid he assaulted,
and he's like, I can't. I kept imagining him going
going home and talking to his dad, and the line

(01:09:03):
that he says, like the humiliation must have been unreal
is such a good line and feels like such a
like a lived in thing to say, and for him
at that age to even think all the way through that,
like to truly put himself into Larry's shoes and see

(01:09:24):
Larry as like a full human being and not just
the like a kid for him to like kick the
shit out of, and then he doesn't really exist anymore.
I mean, Andrew would be a dream client in that
if he got into the therapy office somehow he is
so much like access to his empathy and to his
emotional self and probably would thrive in therapy to have

(01:09:47):
someone that he could talk to that openly and vulnerably.
And you know, I it makes this his whole whole
story is heartbreaking. When I got into detention, like the
way he talks also like so humbly, with so much
humility about how he saw that kid and had kind

(01:10:09):
of this like emotional break internally where all of this
stuff with his dad just kind of came to a
fucking head. And I think we all know that feeling
where you see something of yourself that you don't like
in another person, and it makes you so pissed off

(01:10:30):
in such an irrational, unkind way, and you can't have
to almost like pull yourself back if you can, from
taking it out on them. And the fact that he could,
in that moment, without going to therapy himself, sit there
and like really articulate what his thought process was and

(01:10:51):
have so much humility and such little ego about how
fucked up that was that he did that to that kid,
and how that it didn't matter if the kid was
quote unquote weak or not, like that was a fucked
up thing to do and he didn't deserve it, and
sitting with that shame. I hope that that stays with

(01:11:14):
him forever in the sense that like he will never
do something like that again. Like that that hopefully was
like a true learning experience for Andrew, and also hopefully
if he goes on to have kids one day changes
the trajectory of how he would parent his children and
the kind of pressure he would put on his kids,

(01:11:34):
that he's able to access that much emotional intelligence. It's
I think similar to what you were saying, Molly, when
I watches as a kid and a teenager, Andrew felt
really one note to me and now watching it as
an adult and into the therapist eyes, I was like, shit,
this kid is like he's it. He has such a

(01:11:54):
good center and yeah, you're what you're saying is like
he's like a true captain where he's looking at He's
a true leader, looking out for everybody, checking in on everybody,
like when like he's also so astute and when Alison
dumps all her shit out of her purse and he says,
either you have that shit in your purse because something

(01:12:16):
bad's going on, or you wanted us to see shit
in your person think that something like something's regardless of
why you did that, something's wrong. And even having that
intelligence is so deep and profound, and the way that
he would kind of like not go after people, but
he seemed really invested in what everybody else was feeling emotionally.

Speaker 3 (01:12:38):
His his doing that wasn't to antagonize like Bender was doing.
His was to try to make people feel seen, but
like also not suffering bullshit. Like there's there's a mix
of it, you know, like of no, no, like we're
all being vulnerable here and sharing a moment here, and
I'm like, we're gonna all be accountable for our shit

(01:13:00):
here and we're not gonna no come in here and
bullshit while everybody else is being real sorry.

Speaker 5 (01:13:05):
Funny because he seems like such a team athlete to me,
And while I know wrestling is a team sport, it's
not a traditionally presenting like team sport. And one of
the things I was wondering, one of the things I
was excited about when I was watching this was is
March twenty fourth intentional? Because that is not when a

(01:13:25):
major team sport is in session. So it's not football,
it's not baseball, Like, is there a reason why it's
written during this one month in which any sport he
would make more sense with isn't.

Speaker 3 (01:13:41):
Active us wrestling would be at the This would be towards.

Speaker 5 (01:13:46):
It's not a group sport, Like wouldn't you be better
as like on a team then you would really get
the payoff of like, oh, this is how a team works.

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):
Well, well, like you said, wrestling, wrestling is very much
a team, but it's it's a team individualized sport and
kind of some of the ways that baseball batting would be,
like everybody faces their opponent one on one, but you
definitely train together as a team. You work together as
a team. There's usually several people in your weight class

(01:14:15):
that you all work out together and sweat together, and
like physically carry each other as you run and have
to support and train and work on differences in technique
and how different people are going to see things. So
I think you're right in that it's a team sport,
but it's not. So there's that strong sense of individualism
because ultimately only one kid per weight class gets to

(01:14:36):
compete at varsity level.

Speaker 5 (01:14:39):
I just wish that there had been a sport because
we're so ninety five even percent. I was going to
say ninety ninety five percent of the way there with Andrew,
because he's such a great character to rewatch. But I
think that at the time, if I was when I
was rewatching this as a teenager, when it was probably
made for people my age to watch, but ten years later,

(01:15:01):
I just remember thinking, I just I think I was
missing how important it is, the team element of it.
And I wondered if there was maybe something referential to
a team or a teammate, or something that felt more
we're brothers together, but we don't agree, if there'd be
even been a slight reference to that.

Speaker 4 (01:15:20):
I think I would have.

Speaker 5 (01:15:20):
Had probably a slightly better understanding of how jocks can
contain multitudes.

Speaker 1 (01:15:27):
Yeah, I will say I crawled up into IMDb's trivia
right after I watched this, and I was like reading
all of it aloud to Hannah. And he was actually
originally supposed to be a football player, but John Hughes
thought that there were too many football players and movies,
so he changed him to a wrestler.

Speaker 4 (01:15:48):
Got it.

Speaker 1 (01:15:49):
So you are might be onto something. But so we
will take another break care and we'll be back to
talk about Brian the brain. All right, So Brian in
the Nerd? I guess is that what they call him? Geek?

Speaker 3 (01:16:03):
Probably the geek?

Speaker 1 (01:16:04):
Okay, he is. He's actually the tallest one, which I
don't know why I feel like I need to name
up front. I couldn't get over the fact how tall
he was.

Speaker 3 (01:16:13):
And you know what else he is. He is our
representative mm hmm of Batman in this movie because he
was the talk show host. He was in the dark night.

Speaker 1 (01:16:26):
For you to know, Molly, if you didn't pick up
on the episode you listened to every episode. Ben has
to shoehorn Batman into our discussion just because he's in
a erotic relationship with Batman.

Speaker 3 (01:16:39):
Yeah, it's more I have a relationship with trolling the
shit out of YouTube.

Speaker 1 (01:16:42):
But yes, he's a homo erotic relationship patrolling me and Hannah.

Speaker 3 (01:16:46):
That's probably more accurate.

Speaker 5 (01:16:47):
I actually get that bad, and like I feel like,
no matter what, were you a lack in practical real
world talents, I might I might make up for you
in fucking weird shit like that.

Speaker 4 (01:16:58):
So I have to as I completely get that.

Speaker 5 (01:17:01):
And I want to hate on it, but I respect
the troll Brian Is.

Speaker 1 (01:17:07):
I mean, he's got well, I don't know if I
was gonna I was gonna say he has the heaviest story,
but that's obviously not true. I feel like every kid's
story is heavy in its own way. He has arguably
like the heaviest reason to be in detention in that
he was going to attempt suicide with a flare gun,

(01:17:27):
which I don't even know like efficacy of that, but
not a KI. Yeah, but you do see the beginning bad, Yeah,
but you do see the beginning of the movie that
that must have been his locker that is exploded, Like
there's a locker that's burned from top to bottom and
that must have been his flare gun exploding in his locker.

Speaker 5 (01:17:46):
I've been meaning to look up a flare gun all
day because I've never seen one. Yeah, you're not killing
anyone with this. I mean, well, actually, oh no, that'd
be a very uncomfortable death. It actually is very Yeah,
I have words for that. But this is interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:18:03):
Would it be like taking like a highly explosive firecracker
to the head.

Speaker 3 (01:18:08):
No, probably not. They don't know they I mean, they're
gonna carry a chart with what he's likely to get
from it.

Speaker 1 (01:18:15):
A CT the theme of the episode.

Speaker 3 (01:18:20):
Right from the off mic conversation. Yes, but uh.

Speaker 5 (01:18:23):
Yeah, CT comes from like a series of repeated brain
to I mean, so that's assuming he's gonna hit what
hit himself. I mean, if he tries to repeat attempt
every weekend. But why do you think he'd get CTE
from just the one flare.

Speaker 3 (01:18:39):
Kid get concussed and get a TBI. He's more likely
to suffer a TBI than he is to get anything
that would penetrate his skull and cause death. I don't
think the projectile moves fast enough. It's too big, it's
too clunky, and it doesn't really explode. It just kind
of lights on fire, so it would come out of

(01:19:00):
the barrel with some significant velocity, cause impact damage and
blunt force trauma, but I don't think, and probably burn,
but it would likely bounce off his head before it
actually like lit itself fully on fire. And I don't
think it would be a successful attempt. I think would
it be. It would be a very very embarrassing moment

(01:19:21):
that would live on forever. And on that note, I'm
also I was appalled, appalled that a kid that was
intending to end his life and brought a weapon to
do it, however ineffectual, was given detention, well taken to
a hospital.

Speaker 1 (01:19:42):
But do you think they know why.

Speaker 4 (01:19:44):
I wouldn't.

Speaker 1 (01:19:45):
I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't tell them why
he had a gun, just that he brought a gun.
I could see him because of his perfectionist y stuff
like that and his like good kid rigidity, that I
could see him making up some like bullshit reason of
like oh I was borrowing it from my dad for this,

(01:20:07):
and da da da, and so he would still have
to get a consequence because of the property damage. But
I would be shocked if he admitted to anyone what
his actual intent was with the gun. I mean, granted
it is the eighties, so I would they weren't.

Speaker 2 (01:20:25):
Yeah, I wouldn't be shocked if they didn't put him
in the hospital or even have him talk to a counselor.

Speaker 5 (01:20:30):
Like the other thing I was thinking with that is
like back back then, that would be like showing up
with your wrists cut the wrong way at school, where
they'd be like, you just want attention, Like this is
like a weird fake out. Spend Saturday for eight hours
with some other weird kids. This whole room, by the way,

(01:20:51):
is like very much the resource room. The whole collection
of this is people I grew up with, like we
have no reason to socialize excep.

Speaker 4 (01:20:59):
We all of different struggles in class.

Speaker 5 (01:21:03):
But yeah, like I feel like this is just like
they're like, what do we do with you, Like, go
spend a Saturday here?

Speaker 1 (01:21:10):
I guess like, yeah, because we did do Heathers a
few seasons ago, and that takes place around the same time,
and the theme of that was suicide and how inappropriate.
I mean, that was a campy movie, but also it
was mirrying a real reality, which was how horribly adults

(01:21:33):
were engaging with the idea of like mental health in general,
but suicide specifically. And I could also see adults being
so uncomfortable, especially like because these aren't it's not like
today where there's maybe like school counselors that are school
psychologists that are like actually trained in this stuff. I

(01:21:54):
could also see where a principal or the teacher would
get so overwhelmed by the situation that they would minimize
it or dismiss it as like a behavioral problem and
just kind of like throw a detention at it and
and just like not think about it again because they
would be so stumped and like out of their expertise

(01:22:18):
to know how to deal with it the way that
a lot of I mean you're right, like kids show
up with self harm marks and stuff, and the amount
of times that parents are adults say shitty off color
inappropriate stuff cannot be understated. And I've to be real,

(01:22:38):
like I've watched mental health therapists, like mental health professionals say,
you know.

Speaker 3 (01:22:44):
Well, I mean you think about the right, Like were
we all made fun of that like horribly and kids
were doing like self harm things is like part of that,
but it was they grossly misinterpreted by like the zeitgeist
generally and all of that. Some people that had been

(01:23:04):
self injuring for a long time, people like, Oh, it's
just like they're just doing it because it's a fad,
And that wasn't the case, I don't think now looking
back at it as an adult and you look back
at stuff and go like, oh god, mm hmm. That's
these kids were like finding an outlet in a culture,
but they had some serious trauma and pain and things

(01:23:25):
that they were expressing, and people were still ridiculing them
and like not noticing.

Speaker 1 (01:23:29):
Yeah, howardly mocking them like it was a fashion trend,
right they were trying out instead of recognizing how intense
you have to be feeling internally to cause that much
like physical pain willingly and intentionally on yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:23:47):
Right.

Speaker 5 (01:23:47):
Well, it's like any identification with like a counter culture, right,
Like people don't seek out counter culture because I mean, yeah,
like you know, I was Ben. I don't want to,
you know, make you uncomfortable, but I.

Speaker 4 (01:24:00):
Was an emo.

Speaker 5 (01:24:02):
I wasn't like a presenting emo, but I was an
emo early on. And I will say that like anytime
that like a counter culture finds you or you seek
out a counter culture there's a part of you that's
like quite literally you're not represented in society. I don't

(01:24:23):
know if that's what's going on with our boy here,
but like I think that, and I think a lot
of people. I think that a lot of therapists I
have just again self centered but like all my therapists like, no,
I'm not going to like I literally wouldn't get my
adderall refilled if like they thought that what I was
saying was serious. But like they kind of just like
you know what I mean, Like they they're like I

(01:24:46):
see it for what it is. And I think that
that might have been what happened here is I don't
think anyone thought that this kid was going to actually
go through with killing himself.

Speaker 4 (01:24:54):
Come on, yeah, and I have to call the hospital every.

Speaker 3 (01:24:59):
Time if they brought a weapon that yes, his situation,
there's no not even any equivocation. Would that likely resort
in a inpatient stay? I doubt it so to kind
of you know, heads the point like that, I think

(01:25:20):
he would absolutely have to get taken to a hospital
for assessment or sassed now where someone would come out
and evaluate him and he would probably get sent I
think he'd probably be sent to partial hospital program or
intensive outpatient ultimately to address the seriousness of the pressure
and anxiety he's putting on himself that's causing him to

(01:25:41):
feel so bad that he's perceiving perfection is the only option,
and that because he failed a test, he's garbage. I
think that would need treatment. I don't think that the
means he presented with would be sufficiently ruled as deadly
enough or serious enough that he would need to be

(01:26:02):
impatient hospitalized. And he's not presenting the way that he's
in enough to stress that, especially in the post COVID
world where they don't take you for hardly anything except
you are actively thinking about ending your life right now,
and then if you were turned loose, you might do it.
But I think he would need some significant help and

(01:26:24):
for that bad feeling that is roiling inside of him
and making him doubt himself to be treated, and that
would need to be like from the mandated reporter standpoint, Yeah,
we'd have to respond to that.

Speaker 4 (01:26:36):
Yeah question. Oh sorry, just one more question about that
exact thing.

Speaker 5 (01:26:40):
So, like, let's say you do report him and that
he does have this experience with the mental health professionals,
is that going to be on.

Speaker 4 (01:26:49):
His college application. No, yeah, is there are they going
to be like?

Speaker 5 (01:26:55):
Because, by the way, if I was the principal, that's
another reason why I would go to t Let's say,
if this kid's flipping out about a goddamn f on
his shop project, then I'm like, I don't think he
can come back from having a mental health stay on
his college reck. I mean, maybe this is why I again,
once again I told you before, but I mean this

(01:27:18):
especially now. I shouldn't be a teacher, but I really,
I really would be like measuring away my options and saying, like, ultimately,
I do I think it's gonna fuck this kid up
more if I like prevent his college or limit his
college opportunities by saying this let them maybe we'll just
it's a flair gun.

Speaker 1 (01:27:37):
Well, I actually if you don't mind me taking this spend.
I worked at a partial hospital program in Chicago for
to a little over two years, and Brian reminds me
a lot of some of the kids I would see
there because Chicago, I'm gonna say, hes a notorious but
I don't know if that's true. Really outside of Chicago

(01:28:00):
to me, well around with people who work with kids
and adolescents within mental health. The schools around here are
notorious to us in terms of like the intensity and
the pressure and the perfectionisty stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:28:13):
We have a lot across the street from where you
used to work, yes.

Speaker 1 (01:28:17):
And there's a lot of there are a lot of
placement schools where you have to like test in and
perform really well, and it's very college esque.

Speaker 3 (01:28:25):
Actually, it's hard to get into the gifted program in
Chicago than it is to get into Harvard.

Speaker 1 (01:28:30):
Which is so ridiculous. And so I would work with
a lot of kids like Brian, where the academic pressure
would get so intense that they would have suicidal ideation
and they might not get sent to the they might
get assessed, but they wouldn't necessarily go to the hospital.

(01:28:50):
They would come to my program, which was like a
therapy school. And the amount of times I have this
very distinct memory of being in I did family therapy,
of being in family therapy and trying to make a
self care plan with this teenager and her mom because
she'd had such intense anxiety about school and just like

(01:29:12):
type A burnout and both and the kid said to me,
I can't relax and I have homework till eleven PM.
And then the mom looked at me and goes, yeah,
she does, as if like there was no wiggle room,
no negotiation. And so a lot of times the conversation
I would have to sometimes have with parents, and it

(01:29:34):
would be a hard conversation is your kid can't go
to college if they're dead. Your kid can't get straight
a's if they're dead. What does their homework matter if
they're fucking dead? And this was like my kind of
hail Mary thing I would say to parents.

Speaker 4 (01:29:52):
And they were pretty severe, that.

Speaker 1 (01:29:53):
Real rigidity around, because sometimes I would have that conversation
you're kind of bringing up Molly, where we would say,
I think this kid needs to go to the hospital
all because they are presenting very unsafely, like we're worried
that if they go home, even with their parents, that
something might happen. And sometimes we'd say to parents, the
only way they cannot go to the hospital is if
you can watch them twenty four to seven, and if

(01:30:14):
we're having that conversation, they should be in the hospital.
And the parents would sometimes say, and the kids too, well,
I can't miss blank, I can't miss this test. I
can't miss two weeks of school, and I would say,
I understand this hole that you're in, which is creating
this problem too, And what does it matter if you're

(01:30:35):
going to fucking kill yourself.

Speaker 4 (01:30:37):
You know, like smart Brittany, Because no, because it does.
It serves to this.

Speaker 5 (01:30:41):
Smaller mental problem of like I have no choice but
to do like to do this, but also I can't
get help because of this.

Speaker 4 (01:30:51):
It speaks Yes, that.

Speaker 5 (01:30:52):
Is such a brilliant way to put it in, such
a brilliant approach, and such a useful thing, I think
really honestly, because you sometimes hear these scenarios getting brought
up with like parents, where it's like, you know, your
kid's in danger if you don't like work on this,
And this is just a really clear cut example of
how the calendar slices both ways.

Speaker 3 (01:31:12):
Dude, Well, yeah, and it does. It really does. And
especially like considering like the context of this film we're
talking about. There's two things I think I wanted to
bring up with your question, Molly, because I think it's
a really good one is how it would be used
now versus how it would be used and how we

(01:31:32):
see it used in this film. We don't know. I
think which kid that the principle is digging in their file.
When Carl finds him and we see that there's some
mental health information in that, right, I don't know if
that was supposed to be for the nurse, only because
the janitor was saying, like, hey, in the private files,
you're not supposed to be in that.

Speaker 1 (01:31:53):
Yeah, But hippo wasn't a thing yet.

Speaker 3 (01:31:55):
Hippo was not a thing until I think two thousand
and two.

Speaker 1 (01:31:58):
Oh, I thought it was like ninety seven exsis.

Speaker 4 (01:32:02):
I thought Carl was going to start blackmailing him. He
should like milking him.

Speaker 5 (01:32:07):
For cash, dude, because he should. Yeah, one d percent.
He's got that thirty one thousand dollars a year. I
think he'd take nine hundred off the top for old Carl,
you know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (01:32:16):
That would change his That would change his whole financial.

Speaker 3 (01:32:19):
Quarter, sure would I mean even that fifty bucks Carl
as far I was thinking, now, like, man, you're selling
your integrity for fifty bucks. But fifty bucks back thens
you know, two hundred bucks maybe more, but the uh
three times right, So if we're sticking at thirty one thousand,
was ninety six something like Molly did that uh conversion

(01:32:39):
or the math, there be one hundred and fifty, but
still that's uh seeing it. I don't know what would
have been allowed in private files then and in permanent
records would but now HIPPA would protect that and that
information would not even go to the school beyond what
the nurse might have. But I don't and if the

(01:33:00):
principle would have access to it, because it wouldn't be
a physical file, would be a digital one.

Speaker 5 (01:33:06):
So like a in dorm oh sorry, Ben, a dorm
placement at like a So I went to Boston College
just to like give an idea for size, so like
people would just get matched up with fucking anyone. Right,
it was a big, bigish school, but not so big,
but like you had to fill out your you know,
what you wanted. I never lived on campus. This is
just exactly what I know. So you would fill out

(01:33:27):
what you wanted. Things you would allow for, things you
wouldn't allow for. Right, do you go in a separate
listing that is maybe not necessarily marked, but is a
thing that if you are an incoming freshman who has
had multiple stints, Like, do you have to disclose that
to a college?

Speaker 2 (01:33:45):
You know?

Speaker 3 (01:33:46):
I don't think so they can't you.

Speaker 1 (01:33:48):
Don't have to tell them shit.

Speaker 5 (01:33:51):
So if you have a kid going to college in
the spring semester, you know it's like crazy, man, college
is wild.

Speaker 3 (01:34:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:34:00):
No, I worked with kids who are like going into college,
and it is kind of at my professional discretion to encourage,
but not force, but to encourage like safety planning around
that if that feels important for that kid. But yeah,
I've worked with plenty of kids that were in a

(01:34:22):
really bad way and they were like, I'm going off
to and out of state college and I would just
be holding my breath that it would all be okay.

Speaker 3 (01:34:30):
Yeah, I've had some experiences and I can, I mean
even speak to some of us having had my own
mental health journey in my life that my mom was
quite concerned about that at college, even though we were
many many years, five years I think passed any issues
at this point, and remembering that good old Eastern Illinois University,

(01:34:52):
my mom wanting me to meet with the some coordinator
ever and I just like outright refused. But it would
have been at my discussion to close whatever at that point,
and I just like outright refused. I don't need to
do that. I am not in any of those places
where that's relevant information for the school to know, you know,
like what I went through when I was in eighth grade, Like,

(01:35:15):
they do not need to know that at all, and
did not tell them and had no bearing anything in
my college career. But for kids that might have had
something as dramatic as a suicide attempt in high school,
it's a I mean, it's such a potent risk question.
But once they turn eighteen, which most college freshmen are,

(01:35:35):
they are now in charge of their own medical records,
regardless of who is paying the bills, and it's on
them if they wish to disclose and ask for accommodations
and apply for that from the school, therefore letting the
school know that they've got issues that perhaps can get
adjusted for. But otherwise I don't think there's anything that
a college can even remotely consider unless the student applies

(01:35:57):
for aid or help.

Speaker 2 (01:35:59):
Yeah, And the one of the things I just wanted
to point out, Molly, which I don't know if you
know or not, So if this is something you already know,
just tell me to shut up. But one of the
things that we're assessing when a kid is talking about
thinking that they want to kill themselves or they want
to go to sleep and never wake up like whatever.

(01:36:19):
Whenever they're talking about we, part of what we do
is we assess are these just natural thoughts? Everybody has
thoughts of death. That's totally normal and natural. The difference
of what we when we keep talking about assessing a
kid what you're doing, and what we're checking for is
do they have a plan?

Speaker 1 (01:36:37):
Do they have intent? Do they have access to the plan?

Speaker 2 (01:36:41):
So like let's say, let's say with Brian, he says
I'm gonna shoot myself in the head with a gun. Okay,
does he have access to a gun?

Speaker 3 (01:36:49):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:36:50):
Does he want to do it? Yes? This kid needs
to go to the hospital.

Speaker 2 (01:36:54):
So that's what so like, that's the difference of versus
a kid coming into my office and saying, Hey, I'm
having some thoughts about not wanting to be here anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:37:03):
I'm starting to get worried.

Speaker 2 (01:37:04):
And then at that point that's when I stopped the
session and say, Okay, I need to ask you some
very specific questions about what you're talking about. Because thinking
about death is normal and natural, but thinking about how
you're going to end your life, what you're going to
do it with, and when you're going to do it.
That's somebody who's at risk.

Speaker 1 (01:37:22):
Yeah, there's a few checks you have to mark off.

Speaker 5 (01:37:26):
It's like Clue, you know what I mean, Like the
game Clue, Like it really is that is So that's
very true because uh yeah, I mean I don't even
know if I would know how to answer those questions
honestly if I was a child, but like you know
what I mean, like i'd be like, well, I don't
you know.

Speaker 4 (01:37:44):
So that's very interesting.

Speaker 5 (01:37:45):
This is a lot to consider, and I think, no
matter what, whenever I digest this, I hope someone in
the meantime listening gets to enjoy it, like understand the lesson,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:37:58):
Well, yeah, and I think a lot of times with
a kid that's younger too, you have to kind of
have this conversation with their parents as well in terms
of like do they have access to anything? Could they
have access to anything? Like medications, weapons, stuff like that,
because kids are allowed to say like I wish I
was fucking dead, you know, in my office, and we're

(01:38:20):
not going to be like, let's, you know, call the
paddy wagon and get you sent out, like it's you
have to have all those things hit Because people also
hang out with suicidal thoughts passively, sometimes for long periods
of time, and they can honest actually feel scared about
that themselves, like it can feel almost like an intrusive thought,

(01:38:42):
but they don't want to die necessarily, and they aren't
planning to die, and they and they aren't working on it.
And so it is this spectrum of things that I
wish more people knew, because I think they would be
more honest in therapy if they had the safety of
of knowing that it wouldn't get them like shipped off

(01:39:03):
or possible language.

Speaker 5 (01:39:04):
Yeah, I mean I have to establish a pretty like
comfortable tone with any doctor I see. I don't know
if you guys experience that as what like do you
do you find that there's certain patients that need to
establish a baseline with you Whi's like, I'm unprofessional, I'm
gonna swear, I'm gonna say like insane shit, but it's
not normal.

Speaker 4 (01:39:23):
Do you have Do you get that preface a lot?

Speaker 3 (01:39:27):
Uh? Yeah, definitely, it makes space for it, Like it's okay,
I'm gonna like if somebody we know, like like I
felt like I just was gonna like fucking murder my
brother and it's we don't take that seriously if it's
not like, you know, you get to know the person.
If they're like, no, I'm gonna fucking kill my brother
the fucking knife. I'm gonna stick it in his fucking juggular,
and Washington like, then you go like, so you got

(01:39:52):
a knife.

Speaker 2 (01:39:52):
Yeah, then you're gonna take it up. But yeah, no,
like I love it. I think we all probably take
pretty well.

Speaker 1 (01:40:00):
We have personalities, right, like pretty like casual approaches with
our clients where they can be goofy and make jokes
and you know, I talk about tiktoks sometimes with clients,
and like, you know, when you work with kids and teenagers,
you also have to yeah, be at their level. You
can't be talking like an uber professional, disconnected robot person cool.

Speaker 5 (01:40:23):
I mean, Brian's not cool anyway. I don't even know
how he like got through this conversation to be honest,
and I imagine he probably did admit it just to
I agree that there's no reason why he would say this,
but I just think he would I admit it.

Speaker 3 (01:40:40):
I think within his character he couldn't not because he
couldn't probably bear with telling the lie, even though he
probably doesn't want to, and I mean he may not
have he's smart enough to know not to, but I
don't know, I think to your point, Molly, I don't
know that within what's appropriate for the character himself, that
he wouldn't have been able to not tell on himself.

Speaker 6 (01:41:03):
He's a craftiness like that, right, which makes his mom's
attitude towards him like also a billion times worse if
the reason why he's in quote unquote trouble is because
he wanted to hurt himself and then she's like haranguing.

Speaker 1 (01:41:18):
Him, which is his real mom, actually his real mom
and his real sister play his mom and sister in
the car and just haranguing him before he gets in
the door. Like really bums me out for him too,
because what messages that sent to Brian, like, even when
I am doing the most desperate thing you can do
as like a cry of help for my parents, They're

(01:41:41):
still more focused on how I the teeny ways that
I fuck up? Because I think it's also what's so
hard with a kid that is such like a perfectionisty
kid like him is there's no wiggle room. You know,
he's doing so well and yet he feels like he
can't make a single mistake. It's so awful when a

(01:42:01):
person of any age is in a dynamic where they
get no credit for the ninety nine percent that they
do things well and their parents only focus on the
one mistake or accident or fuck up, and that creates
its own rigidity right where kids will either give up,

(01:42:24):
which he does kind of do. I mean, that's what
you know, attempting suicide is in some ways and be
like it doesn't matter anyway, or they like have that
really perfectionistic attitude for the rest of their lives, very
type A. Sometimes they can be very high functioning but
internally very miserable, and it really bums me out. Brian

(01:42:46):
because he's because what's interesting about him too, is that
even though he is the nerd in this scenario, he
is still like takes a lot of chances. He's kind
of mouthy, Like he isn't a meek dork like that.
He's like, even though he is intimidated by the other kids,
he's still like really trying to like get in.

Speaker 3 (01:43:06):
With them, and he tries to break up the fight.

Speaker 1 (01:43:08):
Yeah, Like he he isn't a stereotypical bunched up, quiet nerd.

Speaker 5 (01:43:16):
I mean if Brian has potential with the tech landscape
where it is you get in at Apple very early,
right by the time he graduates, and like kind of
just really maybe build within, do like coding, build out
a bunch of stuff, but eventually become like a microface
of the company, someone who can go and do sales meetings,

(01:43:37):
presentations without bringing out him Apple, you know what I mean,
skeep jobs, I guess at the time.

Speaker 1 (01:43:43):
And his mom will still finds something to hate about him.

Speaker 3 (01:43:46):
And add the pressure to him that like, if he
makes one mistake, it's not only like going to derail
him temporarily, but it's going to catastrophically cause him to
be unable to meet any of his goals and dreams
that have been pre programmed in him.

Speaker 5 (01:44:01):
Okay, but what if Brian, and we don't know this
because I haven't looked it up, so there's no proof. Otherwise,
what if Brian invented the Apple? What if you invented
the iPod? And what if the whole reason why we
have podcasts is because Brian, like in the movie, grew

(01:44:22):
up to invent podcasts via inventing the iPod, And that's
why we're all here today.

Speaker 1 (01:44:28):
I mean, all hail Brian.

Speaker 4 (01:44:29):
Then I guess, don't you think I think you could
do it?

Speaker 3 (01:44:32):
I mean, I think he could be exactly that guy
wearing a turtleneck and round glasses that would have been
beat up in eighties high school that went on to
invent the thing that made all of everything else for
everyone possible and be the reason why what's his name?
Bill Gates said, be nice to nerds, you'll probably work

(01:44:54):
for one.

Speaker 1 (01:44:55):
Yeah, hopefully he's a you know, I was gonna saypefully,
he doesn't him on Elon Musk, but he doesn't have
the qualities in the background that creates an Elon Musk.
But AnyWho, before we get on that train, let's take
another break here and we'll be back to talk about Alison.
All right, so Alison. Actually, some of the stuff we
were talking about with Brian I feel like apply to Alison.

(01:45:19):
She is the one that's doing weird, absurd, attention seeking
Emo esque behavior and is being kind of written off
as like the weirdo who must be doing stuff for attention.
You know, she is very quiet, which is also a
way to get attention, to be quiet and silent and unresponsive,

(01:45:44):
And she's also doing a lot of attention, like as this.
As the movie progresses and she's trying to become part
of the group, you can see that the way that
she is trying to ingratiate herself is while all of
these like odd attention seeking behaviors, like the way that

(01:46:05):
she gets into the Brian Andrew conversation is admitting that
she stole his wallet, and then the way she tries
to bond with them is dumping out her entire purse
with her tampons and everything and then running away. That
she's someone who does a lot of that like push
pool attention seeking behavior that can be very much written
off as like someone who's trying to establish a quirky personality.

Speaker 3 (01:46:27):
I agree. I think she is using the little attention
seeking moments to fill in that need for her that
she later reveals to us isn't getting met, that her
parents ignore her. But I think we get one clue,
and only one, because I think she remains kind of
a mystery. I don't she never tells us the truth
of why she's there.

Speaker 1 (01:46:48):
She's there actually nothing better to do.

Speaker 3 (01:46:50):
That's not can't possibly no, that's not true, right, Like
there's no way, absolutely, but there was one thing, one
little moment that I caught this time watching that I
don't know if I ever caught before, but it kind
of gave me a clue into her home life. Two things.
One her getting out of the backseat of the car,
despite being probably a senior, means her parents are probably
like overprotective of her. And two that she had the

(01:47:16):
wherewithal enough to slip in and grab that knife the
second bend or put it down. She just kind of
leaned over and went boop, picked that up. And to me,
that seems like her parents are probably ignoring her because
they're fighting with each other, and she is used to
keeping a hyper awareness of where the dangerous things are

(01:47:37):
that can elevate a situation, possibly get thrown or use
and like just kind of we're just gonna go ahead
and pick that up, Like it could be a credit
card bill or a check, or could be somebody's booze
or cigarettes or something that if that's causing a fight,
she has to wherewithal just going and we're just gonna
pick that up and no one will notice what she's

(01:47:58):
doing because they're so and throw in their own shit.
And that was a read I got espe I've seen
this movie many times. Catching that kind of piqued my
interest a little bit.

Speaker 5 (01:48:09):
M well, like low key, is it too early to say?
I when I was watching this, I was thinking, she's
a klepto dog.

Speaker 3 (01:48:19):
Maybe feels like it.

Speaker 4 (01:48:20):
Was more okay, we have to die. You're going to
diagnose some.

Speaker 3 (01:48:24):
No, no, no, no, go ahead No.

Speaker 4 (01:48:26):
I was just gonnas no, you're right.

Speaker 5 (01:48:27):
I just was gonna say, that's like, uh, literally, I
was thinking, with she's so uh her behavior, so I
want to know more about that.

Speaker 4 (01:48:35):
You know what happened to when on a rider?

Speaker 2 (01:48:37):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:48:38):
Yeah, that is interesting. I feel like if she is
being ignored at home, she may be very resourceful and
maybe like taking the wallet and taking the knife and
stuff like that. It could be her trying to be
resourceful or just like she has to take care of
herself so she gets where she can and or I

(01:49:02):
think a lot of it just comes back to attention seeking.
And I think what I want to differentiate when I
say attention seeking isn't in this kind of like shitty
judgmental way that we talk about in mainstream culture where
it's this very like dismissive thing that it's not really
a big deal, you're just like obnoxious and immature. We

(01:49:24):
all need attention, especially from our parents, especially as we
are growing up. Like attention isn't a bad thing. Needing attention,
seeking attention is a normal part of being a human being.
And when you don't get it where you need it,
which is from your parents, you will attempt to get
it in other ways. And her doing all this bizarro

(01:49:46):
off putting shit, like the lying, the making outrageous claims.
I got very nervous when she started talking about her shrink,
and I was worried that that was going to be
the truth when she was talking about that stuff, because
that would be very eightiesyuse we.

Speaker 4 (01:49:58):
Didn't get to see that on tea anti.

Speaker 1 (01:50:00):
Right, Probably not?

Speaker 5 (01:50:02):
No, definitely not, Which is so crazy that that's how
you guys like I didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:50:07):
Know they smoked weed in this movie.

Speaker 2 (01:50:08):
I didn't know they smoked weed.

Speaker 1 (01:50:10):
Them being stoned makes everything make so much more sense
in terms of the turn the movie takes with them
being more vulnerable and goofy and interactive with each other,
of course because they're stoned.

Speaker 5 (01:50:23):
And I literally I cannot believe that this because I
think that I when I would watch it if it
was because it was always on. If you're passively on,
I would always think like, oh, well, like, I know
there's I never thought about the fact that there's some
people who didn't know what was going on with them. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:50:41):
I just thought that they maybe got cabin fever and
were acting goofy montage style, you know how those movies
like a montage where everyone starts.

Speaker 2 (01:50:49):
Yes, I thought it was just like a weird like
a weird flex in the movie that just didn't really
make any sense.

Speaker 4 (01:50:55):
So did you think like they.

Speaker 2 (01:51:00):
No, I hadn't know anything, because they wouldn't have shown
any of that, So I had no I had no
idea that that's what they did, and again puts so
much more context into the film.

Speaker 5 (01:51:09):
But did you feel like now seeing it today you
felt like it was kind of insane? Did you feel
a little insane watching it.

Speaker 1 (01:51:17):
In what way?

Speaker 5 (01:51:18):
In the way that like I can't like, oh, this
movie makes a lot more sense.

Speaker 2 (01:51:23):
Yes. We were yelling at the TV and then I
watched it together on Monday and we were screaming because
we were like, oh, of course, because I think on
TV it was like they got the weed out of
Bender's locker. He has the confrontation with the principal where
he is playing basketball or pretending to play basketball, and

(01:51:45):
then I feel like it hard cuts to the scene
where what's his nuts Andrew is like dancing, yes, and
and they're like chit chatting, but there's no smoke or smoking,
and so it just was like they've finally reached the
edge where they were like, fine.

Speaker 1 (01:52:06):
We'll just hang out because we're so fucking bored. Going
back to Alison, though, I think what I want people
to take from this is what we were saying before,
is that when a kid like you, I think we
were all kind of saying this in some way, but
when a kid is acting like that, or when a
person's acting like that, people who are mentally well and
stable don't do stuff like that. They don't steal shit

(01:52:29):
and say bonker stuff and act out and are off
putting like that. When someone's doing all that stuff, something
is going on. And even if they are lying about
sleeping with their therapist or about wanting to die or something,
people who aren't having a fine time in life aren't

(01:52:50):
saying stuff like that, And so that alone, like if
they're smoke there's fire like that alone is something to
take seriously, and she is someone to take seriously even
if everything she's saying on face value is bullshit.

Speaker 3 (01:53:06):
Yeah. Absolutely, And you know the stealing what the question
I ask about kind of like was that because she's
used to doing that is only one possible question like that.
The other thing is like, is she stealing to force interactions?
Because if she steals somebody's shit and then has the
opportunity to get an interaction out of them by like

(01:53:26):
producing it like she did with the wallet, it's like
social skills exactly, Like it's a it's a forced interaction
she created because now that person has to talk to
her and pay attention to her and interpret her in
order to get their shit back. M And that could
have been it too. I mean for the wallet, that
was certainly it. I don't know about the knife, but

(01:53:48):
the idea that people don't randomly make snow out of
their dan drift.

Speaker 1 (01:53:55):
I can't even watch that part.

Speaker 3 (01:53:58):
And then like laugh and smile about like obviously drawing
attention to the fact that you're being really showy about it.
Of like, loo, what I can do.

Speaker 1 (01:54:05):
I think everything she's doing is very big and performative,
like the one she makes the sandwich. She wants people
to notice how weird she's being.

Speaker 3 (01:54:15):
She does, absolutely, and someone who's getting ignored and isn't
getting their need met will resort to a higher intensity,
higher risk behavior to get that need met. See cheating
in relationships. See stealing when out of food and hungry
and broke. See begging on the street corner when you
don't have any money.

Speaker 4 (01:54:35):
Like, I love this, more of that, Like, explain this more.

Speaker 3 (01:54:40):
Basically, the more risks are, the more you have to
try harder to get your basic needs met like food, shelter, clothing, affection, love,
the more risks you are willing to take to get
them met.

Speaker 4 (01:54:57):
Well, like, it is crazy how it started.

Speaker 5 (01:54:59):
Could to really start with you know, captain crunch and
pixie sticks and a disruptive lunchroom meal. I mean, she
just is almost too beautiful for this behavior. I have
to say, Well, I never buy her costume.

Speaker 1 (01:55:13):
What's unfortunate for her for this reason you're bringing up,
is that she is ripe to be groomed and taken
advantage of. Like the first attractive got God blessed it's Andrew.
If that ends up going somewhere, But I don't know
if that would go anywhere. But the first she's the

(01:55:34):
kind of girl that I worked with who some twenty
five year old fucking creep who is not doing anything
with their life would find her and love bomb her,
and she would do anything they wanted, and she would
put up with a lot of bullshit and maybe even
abuse and stuff because she's finally getting that need met.

(01:55:54):
And I think people who have who have never really
known what that's like can't can struggle to understand. It's
very like why wouldn't they leave? Like why would they
date someone like that? Why would they do crazy stuff
like that? Like people who ask those questions, I assume
they just don't know what it's like to be in
such like a desperate, scarce place with a basic human need.

(01:56:19):
And that's where I would feel very nervous for Allison,
because she is also conventionally attractive when she is made over,
even though I think she's cute no matter what, but yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:56:32):
She's so.

Speaker 5 (01:56:33):
It's just, honestly, can we get a diagnosis for guys
like not being able to see like, yeah, babe, she
has beautiful cheek bone. She just has like also a
great shaggy do, like what do you want me to
say she's I.

Speaker 1 (01:56:44):
Mean, we could get into a whole full conversation about
the male gaze. Okay, we're already burning time. I mean,
oh my god, yes, talk about a talk about an
athlete who's like, I'm bigger, Hacky Sack, I'm bigger than
my athletics.

Speaker 3 (01:57:02):
Dad, right, Which was fun. Fact, I thought that's the
movie we were doing when we did the one Drew
very More that you were talking about, Like the name
just left my brain, but I thought that's what. Yes,
I watched that movie for like ten minutes. Is like
texting a hand and Brittany like, why the fuck are
we doing? I hate all of this and they're like,
what fucking movie are you watching with Freddy Print's right now?

(01:57:23):
Like we're not doing that?

Speaker 1 (01:57:25):
Oh fuck yeah, Transformation.

Speaker 3 (01:57:29):
No, I know.

Speaker 4 (01:57:29):
That's why I relate.

Speaker 5 (01:57:30):
One of the many reasons I relate to you because
that anecdote stayed in the podcast, and I have done
that for my lifetime podcasts before, where I've gotten like
fifteen minutes into a Meredith Axter Bernie movie.

Speaker 4 (01:57:42):
I felt for you.

Speaker 5 (01:57:43):
I do think that you're a you know, a podcasting
secret secret sibling of mine that I didn't know about.

Speaker 3 (01:57:53):
I feel that way.

Speaker 4 (01:57:54):
About all of you, though, let's let's do this all
the time.

Speaker 1 (01:57:57):
Does anyone have anything else they want to say specifically
about Alison? She's such an interesting character to me.

Speaker 3 (01:58:04):
I think the only thing I want to say about
her other than I think all these insights are brilliant,
is that I wish we had gotten whatever I assume
got left on the cutting room floor of her character
that got lost.

Speaker 1 (01:58:17):
Yeah, and also like the sharp turn of like her
kissing Andrew at the end, Yeah, that's felt very sudden. Yeah, well, I.

Speaker 3 (01:58:26):
Mean I think that leads to your point though, that.

Speaker 1 (01:58:28):
You true, she's going to print him on imprint on
him like a baby duck.

Speaker 3 (01:58:32):
There you go exactly that, like he noticed her and
then like he noticed her hard, and like when she
walked out with her made up, he was like, oh god.

Speaker 1 (01:58:40):
I'm envisioning now, I'm envisioning an awful scenario. This is
an awful scenario where you have the white Night Savior,
super empathetic, emotionally intelligent person Hannah's nodding, and then the
person who is a wreck and that is a terrible
combination that happens all the time where he's going to
try to save her, save her savor, and she's gonna

(01:59:03):
energy vampire energy vampire.

Speaker 2 (01:59:06):
No.

Speaker 4 (01:59:06):
I think they're going to be in a really good relationship.

Speaker 1 (01:59:10):
I'm looking forward to the FANFICKI right.

Speaker 4 (01:59:12):
I know, I'm just saying. I'm just saying that if anyone.

Speaker 5 (01:59:15):
Out there is feeling helpless at the end of this,
I just want to say that I do think that
they probably date until freshman year, and then she maybe
moves abroad and then but they're still best friends.

Speaker 2 (01:59:29):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:59:30):
I would hope so, I mean, I think he would.
I think he would treat her well, but I don't
know if it would be healthy long term. I mean,
if anyone's.

Speaker 5 (01:59:38):
Gonna healthy foundation for her versus her abandonment, maybe Andrew
will be a nice foundation for her. Coming from such
a place of loneliness, I.

Speaker 1 (01:59:48):
Feel well, she's someone where What can be helpful about
therapy is constructing a good goodbye. So when I've worked
with kids who've had to leave our program and they
have they're on abandonment rejection stuff, or they have to
terminate with me for some reason, it gives you an
opportunity to have a good goodbye that's not grounded and

(02:00:10):
feeling like abandoned or rejected, and that can be why
it's very any therapist listening, it's very good to have
like a solid termination plan. You just can't end a
relationship with a client the way that you would with
like a general practitioner or something like. You have to
be thoughtful about how you wrap things up, especially with

(02:00:30):
the case like her, where you'd want it to be
very slow and steady and make sure that she doesn't
take it personal as much as possible.

Speaker 3 (02:00:40):
Right, because you know, the ground for this is ripe
With Andrew is let's assume going to get a scholarship
and maybe he's going to go to Nebraska or Iowa
or Minnesota somewhere far away for college. And we don't
even know what the age gap is between it. Maybe
he leaves a year before her.

Speaker 1 (02:00:59):
And we're assuming they're all in the same grade.

Speaker 3 (02:01:03):
Yeah, and maybe they are, maybe they aren't, and they
I think they would have really hard time with the breakup.
If Andrew is going to go away to college, he
might struggle to like not go, or he has to go.
And then if she's imprinted on him and you know
it's getting her needs met and wants to stay she
is a substantial risk to turn up and demonstrate some

(02:01:25):
really desperate behaviors, And not that she necessarily would, but
people that carry that profile certainly can end up in
that space.

Speaker 2 (02:01:35):
Yeah, And part of what I was thinking about Allison
is that even if going along with the premise of
her and Andrew are together, even if Andrew is kind
and sweet and supportive and stable, that's not what her
experience has been like Nope, So it to be really
hard for her to just accept that, like that that's

(02:01:57):
true and that she can believe it and that he's
going to stay around owned like I'm But with therapy,
she'll be able to talk about the relationship dynamic, and
she'll be able to bring up like why am I
feeling like I'm just mad at him sometimes? Or I
feel like I don't want to talk to him sometimes
and he's just so nice, and like I don't know

(02:02:17):
what to do, like there are Because of the way
that she has seen relationships go and because of the
way that she has been treated, it's going to be
hard for her to lean into Andrew and lean into
the kindness and the niceness to trust him. That's going
to be really hard for her. So I don't know, like,

(02:02:39):
I think.

Speaker 1 (02:02:40):
She'd probably tests the shit out of him. I agreed, Yeah,
and then it would and because.

Speaker 2 (02:02:44):
That's the and that would be the only way that
she would feel like she can trust him is by
putting him through these these tests that help her know
that he really isn't going to leave.

Speaker 4 (02:02:55):
Which you're so smart, like that's so true.

Speaker 3 (02:03:00):
Things.

Speaker 1 (02:03:00):
Yeah, So we'll take another break here and we'll be
right back. So this episode has been kind of a
long one, which is not fine. Which is fine, But
with treatment, We've talked about a lot of treatments here
and there with these characters. Is there anything I'm going
to kind of chop this up a little bit? Is
there anything more we want to say about any specific
character in terms of treatment.

Speaker 2 (02:03:23):
I think the only thing I want to point out,
and I don't have to, you know, talk about it
for ten minutes or anything, but is that I think
with Claire, I think that she would have to do
family therapy. I think family therapy is one of the
ways that she can find her own role in the
family and find a way for her to be out

(02:03:43):
of the trap of her parents' marriage. So I think
that she would need to find family therapy. That's the
only thing that I was going to talk about in treatment, really,
and I don't think we really talked about treatment with Claire.

Speaker 1 (02:03:55):
That's a good point. Yeah, I think the only thing
else i'd end with Bender. I've worked a lot of
KI kids that are Bender coded, that come from family
environments where the families aren't workable, and that situation is
not really going to change because their treatment resistant, all
YadA YadA, And I think with him, kind of what
you guys were referencing, I think maybe it was you

(02:04:16):
Molly referencing early about being good at shop is. I
think what would be really important for him is to
find something that he feels proud of and confident in.
And it makes me think of when I worked at
one of my first PHPs, which was more with kids
like Bender. One of the therapists which was so sweet,
she had her husband come in who was a graphic designer,

(02:04:38):
like an artist professionally, and he did like weekly free
tutoring with this one kid who was really really creatively
talented and got no home support to try to build
up his confidence in that and to work him into
something real and tangible that he can feel proud of
that he can touch, that he can you know, show

(02:05:00):
that he can feel, and then I think with him
to make it something that he can create. Independence, because
with a kid like Bender, you're I'm with kids like that,
I'm trying to get them out of their house as
soon as they can, so it becomes less about making
your home life work and more about getting the fuck
out of there as soon as you can and building
your own support system and your own resources and your

(02:05:21):
own way to live. And with some kids, that is college,
like if you can get a Scott. When I work
with foster kids, because they would sometimes get financial aid
and stuff because of their situation, I'd be like, let's
get out of here and into college, or like let's
get into a trade or a skill, because, like I said,
that also builds up confidence that he he desperately needs confidence.

(02:05:43):
You know, all that swagger is fake stuff. He needs
to feel like he's good at something to keep him
going in life and to keep him from recreating the
cycle with his own family if he has one one day.
So that's all I wanted to say about Bender.

Speaker 3 (02:05:58):
And I love that. I think it's it's really important.
I think sometimes the hardest thing in therapy is helping
people work against those ingrained instincts, like to get parent
approval and realize that your only chance of success is
going somewhere else. You have to leave. You cannot be
successful here, Like John, you will never win. You can

(02:06:21):
never win. You can never be good enough for your
dad because he is miserable to be pleased with you.
He doesn't want to be pleased with anything. And it's
it's it's impossible, and it's not about you. You gotta
let go. I think that it would be the most
powerful thing with the characters I look at like I'm

(02:06:42):
looking at the kids and thinking about who I'd want
to treat, and honestly, the person I think needs the
most therapy help is the principle.

Speaker 1 (02:06:52):
You always pick the most random person you like. Surprise,
please please, please go on, pop off King.

Speaker 3 (02:07:01):
I think the person we see who gets the least development,
the least work, the least growth, is the principle, and
he's the one who's in the position to cause the
most harm. And if he continues to stay in this
miserable place where he's resenting other people's ability to actualize
and still have that chance in front of them, he's

(02:07:23):
likely to try to use the bull with horns approach
and assert his middle age midlife crisis bullshit onto other
teenage boys who might still pay having some kind of
fire left in them to fight against the world and
break the molds they need to grow into whoever they're

(02:07:44):
going to be. Most of the people that make it
in this world don't do it by following a conventional path.
They do it by having the courage enough to just say,
fuck it, I'm going to do it. And if teachers
crush that out of kids without eiding them properly, of like, Okay,
it's okay to have your own ideas to do things
your own way, but not to you can't crush out

(02:08:07):
of them, like the only way you'll be successful is
my way, and that you'll have to submit to authority,
Like you need to have a little bit of healthy
uh you know, uh neutrality, you know, be a little
neutral good. I will do good, but not necessarily going
to follow the rules you put in front, because who
says your rules are just like that little bit of

(02:08:27):
question that I think we see Fox News telling our
grandparents to resent in kids when they question things like
critical race theory, for example that people love to be
like well, alcoso pausewords, shouldn't be teaching people that shit
like like hold on, all of us were taught a
version of like whitewashed ass history that didn't acknowledge the

(02:08:49):
facts that some horrible shit was done by our country,
Like that's messed up, and maybe we should teach the
whole truth that this teacher is totally that person that's
watching Fox News in their eighties and nineties now going like, yeah,
that's right. These damn kids everybody running in this country
and they don't know what the fuck they're doing. And
it maybe if somebody could have helped him along and

(02:09:09):
been like, hey, why don't you tell me what's going
on here with you? What didn't happen for you? What's
making you so angry and so resentful? What do we
need to rediscover in you? Like these kids got to
do when okay, they got high to do it, but
watching like Andrew do cartwheels and like sing and like
jam out and like loosen up it, can you imagine

(02:09:29):
what the principle be like if somebody helped him rediscover
the ability to play and if you know, like he
could teach kids from that standpoint of like, Okay, hey, like, look,
there's rules in life, like you got to pay your bills,
you got to.

Speaker 1 (02:09:42):
Give them to an improv for anxiety class.

Speaker 3 (02:09:46):
I mean maybe, but not, you know, not come at
it from this standpoint of hatefully crushing everybody into the
same soul crushing reality he has. I think i'd want
to work with him on that that. Like, there are
lots of routes to success in this world, and most
of them come from having the freedom to be authentically

(02:10:06):
yourself and do the things that make you you, while
also having a strategic mind to apply them in a
way that is equitable. And I would love to see
him in therapy kind of re examine what's keeping him
stuck so that he doesn't project that onto other people's
realities and cause so much harm.

Speaker 1 (02:10:24):
All right, Mollie, is there anything Morning that you want
to add to this as a writer or as a
mental health participant, if you want to think about like that.

Speaker 4 (02:10:32):
I think we're all their dad needs to go to therapy.

Speaker 1 (02:10:36):
Oh, I'm sure all of their parents need to go
to therapy, you know.

Speaker 5 (02:10:40):
But like I feel, he's at the very he's at
the precipice of what could be a very dark, uh
psychological future for him with the exploitation of women. I
feel like, you know, this could go to like the
times like him going to Chicago for a business dinner
and then he's hiring like you know, a lady of
the night to like sit with him and he's gonna tell.

Speaker 4 (02:11:01):
Her stories or whatever.

Speaker 5 (02:11:02):
I feel like where this could go from there as
he either goes to therapy or it's going to get
to a very dark place, like possibly even some form
of what would legally be considered trafficking. Now, Like I
think if he went to therapy, he could have like
I think that it would be effective on someone like
him quick if it was at the right moment, you.

Speaker 4 (02:11:25):
Know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (02:11:26):
Yeah, not letting him become a Richard gear No, I mean.

Speaker 4 (02:11:30):
He's not going to be a good guy.

Speaker 5 (02:11:31):
I just mean like slightly less, like you know, like
maybe if he had like some coping mechanisms into how
like how to communicate with his wife. I just want
to I'd say that I want to blame him. I
just really do think he's the problem.

Speaker 1 (02:11:44):
I definitely think he needs to figure out like what
he thinks his dynamic with Clara's and get that the
fuck figured out, Yeah, because that's dark to me. All right, Well,
we'll take our final break here and be back with
final thoughts. So we were thinking with final thoughts that
it could be fun if we each self identified as

(02:12:06):
one of the breakfast Club. I can be vulnerable and
go first. I hate to admit this, but I would
be a Brian. And this is why when I was
in seventh grade, I got a lunch attention and I
cried so hard in class in front of my peers
about getting in trouble for lunch attention that my teacher

(02:12:26):
ripped it up and said, you've been punished enough. And
I did not have to go through with the lunch
detention because he felt such pity for me because of
the insane reaction I had. Because of the pressure, I
felt like I could not get in trouble. And that's
still something I'm working on as an adult, of this

(02:12:46):
idea that like, I can't get in trouble. And so
unfortunately I am a Brian in that if I got
an f and shop, I don't know if it would
get to the dark level it got with him, but
I would probably have some sort of like mental breakdown
that would be very intense. So unfortunately I am a
Brian and anyway, with how I feel about this movie,

(02:13:10):
though I really like this movie. I like it more
now that I understand the full context of it, and
I think it's a movie that I would definitely rewatch.
I think some stuff is obviously problematic. I mean, the
way that Bender treats Claire the whole movie is would
not fly in today's society. He's basically like sexually harassing her, yeah,
and put his head up her skirt like he does

(02:13:30):
really disgusting stuff that it sucks that. The message in
the movie is that he gets here in the end,
like you treat a girl like this and you talk
about her body and her virginity and all that stuff,
and then she likes you. That very like if he's
mean to you, he likes you. So I don't love
all that part. And I think actually Molly Ringwald wrote
of Me Too, like when Me Too was happening, she

(02:13:51):
kind of wrote an essay about rewatching Breakfast Club with
her ten year old daughter and how problematic that dynamic
was and how it wouldn't fly today. So other than
that and the use of like gay slurs and stuff,
I think this movie actually is kind of timeless and
how it discusses teenagers, it's like very I can see

(02:14:11):
where this movie might have like Bluke blown kid's minds
when they saw it in terms of like feeling really seen.
It's such a for how like limited demographically it is,
it's still such a rich demonstration of like the teenage
psyche and treats teenagers seriously and they're feeling seriously, which

(02:14:32):
I always appreciate. So that's my final thoughts, Hannah, do
you want to go next?

Speaker 2 (02:14:38):
Okay, Yeah, it's a tricky question for me, uh because
my home life was more like Benders and my but
my presentation.

Speaker 1 (02:14:50):
At school was like Claire.

Speaker 2 (02:14:52):
Yeah, but I was also really like a like a
people pleaser is really is really what it was, and
just like masking all the crazy shit that I was
parenting at home.

Speaker 1 (02:15:01):
So so I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:15:02):
So I kind of feel like it makes sense to
say Claire in some ways, and it also makes sense
that I didn't present the way that Bender presents. I
presented the way that Claire presents. Yeah, I think, you know,
barring the things that Brittany already brought up about the film,
I think it's I think it's a good film. I

(02:15:24):
think it shows I think it does something with teenagers
that help show the depth of their feeling that I
don't I still don't think that adults.

Speaker 3 (02:15:34):
Take seriously mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (02:15:36):
That's really unfortunate, and I think that's one of the
things that it does really well. And I'm probably gonna
watch it again after us just talking about it and
thinking about all the things we've been talking about, I'll
probably watch it again to just kind of like see
what it feels like after after talking about all these
different aspects of the film. So I'll definitely watch it again.

Speaker 1 (02:15:57):
All right, Molly, do you mind going next?

Speaker 4 (02:16:00):
I would say.

Speaker 5 (02:16:02):
At my core, I am a Brian. I would say
that my anxieties were less so anchored to academics. I
just knew that wasn't my strong suit. But I was
very much like living in self torture mode or like
maybe like contain torture mode, very really religious, like very

(02:16:24):
uh like like Irish Catholic, not like crazy, but just
like it all felt very oppressive, and I was very
much a rule follower and like couldn't even get away
with anything. But then I would say, like a one
quarter shell Allison, maybe a little bit maybe even like
a little bit of a third because I wasn't like
a liar, but I was a creative kid. Like I

(02:16:48):
was just someone who's obviously kind of like telling stories.
It's never really lying or fabricating anything. I just was always,
you know, I just fucking yapped. And so I really
enjoyed that when she was kind of like really finally
having her moments, that she just dialed in on some
of the most weird ass shit she could, and she

(02:17:09):
really took her moment for the moments that she had.

Speaker 4 (02:17:13):
You know, if she wasn't, she was great.

Speaker 2 (02:17:15):
Loved it all right, So you're like a Brian Moon
Alison Rising probably okay, And then any final thoughts about
the movie from like a writing standpoint or just enjoying
the movie standpoint, No.

Speaker 4 (02:17:28):
I just think it's like that.

Speaker 5 (02:17:29):
I just think it's such a cool, clean, crisp movie.

Speaker 4 (02:17:34):
It really is.

Speaker 5 (02:17:35):
It's like, if you have ever wanted to like write
a script, I would say that this is like the
most approachable movie to watch, and I think a very
findable script. And I would really recommend watching this movie
with a script because there's something also very satisfying about
like just as a viewer, like as an adult viewer

(02:17:55):
watching this movie, there's something so satisfying about the way
these cares play out and the way that there's subtle
nuances and seeing how much performance affects things.

Speaker 4 (02:18:06):
It's really, uh, it's really a great movie.

Speaker 5 (02:18:09):
And I would say a good intro for beginners and
people who want to start to learn how to write movies.
Even if you feel like you've seen The Breakfast Club
a million times, like, just watch it and read the
script and that'll make you think, well.

Speaker 3 (02:18:24):
Very cool, all right, ben Ah, So I am probably
to no one's best surprised Andrew would be the characters
like me. Yeah, that probably shouldn't surprise anybody. Definitely not, Yeah,
I didn't think so. I was never a team captain
of anything, but definitely was an athletic kid, and like

(02:18:44):
I am now, I'm a jack of all trades type.
I can pretty much do a lot of things to
a acceptable level, generally above replacement. But unlike Andrew, though
I was never going to be a state wrestler, like
I was never that fletically gift that I had enough
athletic skill to make the team to play to do things,
but I'm not getting a scholarship anywhere for that. My

(02:19:08):
talent was probably more in performance than I ever gave
myself space to acknowledge because of well, not my dad's type.
My dad is more of a Brian. He's a professor
that went to Stanford. I mean, my dad's a definite Brian,
and my mom kind of too, So my family life
might have been a little more like his without the
intense pressure. I was kind of like the rare gem.

(02:19:29):
Nobody else in my family's an athlete like I am.
Has its own issues, right, but I think I identified more
with his story, Like there were points in time in
my life where I had just absurd bullying behavior either
done to me or did it, and I definitely carried
some deep shame and regret about some of those choices
that I made, and like looking back and recognizing I

(02:19:50):
would never do that to anybody now. But then like
those spontaneous moments of like trying to grapple with what
masculinity even is, or how to find my place or
how to stand out and not be a target, and
realizing like, oh, well, I guess I have to assert
donoinance to have any because that's what's been done to me,
and how fucked up that is, and how much that

(02:20:13):
masterclass in writing really gave so much depth to that character.
Where I think much like Andrew, I am so much
more like now the things that I've done since high
school and since active sports playing. I did a sketch
comedy troupe where I did become the vice president of that.
And I've been in bands for twelve years or fifteen years,

(02:20:33):
and I've played with touring acts, like I've risen to
some levels and done some things that you know, nobody
would have thought of starting offensive and defensive lineman on
the football team, was going to do mm hmm, like
I probably should have been with the theater kids, but
and eventually did choose band kind of over football, Like
I kind of gave up the what would have led

(02:20:55):
to a path to starting on varsity, to like not
do the weight training class and do way training on
my own, but play in a band because music meant
so much to me that I wanted to do that.
And I think I see that and Andrew that he
would have wanted to look at him when he's performing
and jamming out and stuff like does that having fun
he's having fun, and that seemed like more authentically him
the first time he actually like let himself loose and

(02:21:17):
not been like uptight and rule following, and like playing
a role and leaning into it and standing up to
a bigger kid. It's probably could have kicked the shit
out of him if he wanted to.

Speaker 1 (02:21:26):
Will you watch this movie again?

Speaker 3 (02:21:28):
Then? I will watch this movie till eternity because it's timeless,
and I watched it in college in my adolescent psych class,
and I love what the professor did with us of
watching this and kind of exploring exactly what you said,
the depth of teenage emotions, especially when we weren't so
far removed from it as we are now that Hey
remember how thoroughly and completely you felt things, and how also,

(02:21:51):
like Molly said, confined to a like unrealistic standard it was.
I think this movie so many things in such a
just I love what you said clean and Chris Molly.
From the the script writing standpoint, it is so clean.
It nails its points, and it can be watched over

(02:22:12):
and over again, maybe without the you know, slurs, but
beyond that, it's excellent.

Speaker 4 (02:22:18):
I say, keep them in. I don't represent none of
the groups represent me.

Speaker 5 (02:22:22):
But I just want to say if if you're just
looking to have a little bit of vintage color, I
think a stray f Sler written on a locker. I
feel like the lgbt QIA plus community can agree that
that's an important representation for the time.

Speaker 4 (02:22:40):
You know what I mean, you were bully.

Speaker 1 (02:22:42):
If we forget history, we repeat it, you know, yeah, oh.

Speaker 3 (02:22:45):
Yeah, I don't think we should erase it just like that,
you know, if we were too uh, it needs to
come with that caveat of like this was absolutely what
would have been said it casually then but not Okay, now,
let's not restart it.

Speaker 1 (02:22:56):
Well, on that note, we want to thank you again
Molly for joining us. We really appreciate you taking the
time out to what I think might be the longest
episode we've ever recorded, so I appreciate your patience.

Speaker 5 (02:23:11):
I feel like that's crazy because I feel like the
one I listened to the other day was like two
and a half.

Speaker 4 (02:23:16):
Hours long, but this was like a fucking blast.

Speaker 5 (02:23:20):
I can't thank you for having me really honestly, such
a pledge and the most fun. I really valued everyone's opinions,
Like I'm a big fan of your show. Now like,
I'm very honored to be a part of it, and
I welcome you on my shows anytime, and I will
come back anytime someone flakes, I'll be there.

Speaker 3 (02:23:43):
Well, we'd love to have you. This is a blast.
We really appreciate you, and its honored to have you.

Speaker 2 (02:23:47):
You know that.

Speaker 1 (02:23:47):
It's so I'm gonna shout you out one more time.
So if you enjoyed listening to Molly, you can check
her out at Mother and My Sleep with podcast, which
is Lifetime movie podcast I listen to, and that one
is a chunk of time. That one I probably listened
to over like two days because I think Molly, you
can admit it's like three or four hours long.

Speaker 5 (02:24:06):
Well, that's the show that like, No, this is the
show that people have been mad if I didn't do.

Speaker 2 (02:24:13):
So.

Speaker 5 (02:24:13):
I've been doing this show for a very long time.
It was supposed to only be a fifteen episode series
of Lifetime original movies that I was going to use
as like a thing for my resume, and then it
turned out being like wound up being this thing where
people didn't want me to stop, and I stopped allowing stops.
So I one thing I found out along the way

(02:24:34):
Unfortunately is that when I try to scale the episodes back,
people are like, I can't clean out my entire garage.

Speaker 4 (02:24:42):
To this episode of episode which.

Speaker 5 (02:24:45):
With this ninety minute shit, I have a whole garage
to clean out. And so that's the relationship I think
I have with my listeners, which is the lifetime relationship
where it's the network of uh, doing your other house
chores while you while it's on TV, Like it's.

Speaker 1 (02:25:02):
Sure passive passive entertainment. Yeah, and then I also want
to shout out one more time your trend lightly podcast.
I really appreciate it and that it keeps me in
the loop with things like vander Pump Rules and stuff
that I don't watch or participate in, but I get
to be in the know because, as Handah knows, I
like to know what's going on even if I don't
have like explicit interest in the thing that's trending. So

(02:25:25):
I appreciate that nugget you give me every week to
stay in.

Speaker 4 (02:25:30):
Thank you, babe.

Speaker 1 (02:25:31):
Yeah, of course I feel like there was something Even
in today's episode, I was like, I'm glad you're talking
about this because I didn't know what people were talking
about on TikTok, but I can't remember exactly City banklid, Yes,
the Chase, the Chase bankleage.

Speaker 4 (02:25:43):
Then I was like, people.

Speaker 1 (02:25:44):
Are talking about this, I don't know what. And then
as soon as you start talking about it, I think
I went yes to myself in my kitchen because I
was like, now I know what's going to go on.
But any who, I have to do our little rigamar role.
So if you would like to find us anywhere, you
can find us on Instagram, tik Talk, Facebook at popcorn Psychology.
You can find us on threads now at popcorn Psychology
because we're no longer on Twitter or x or whatever.

(02:26:07):
You can always email us at pop porm Psychology at
gmail dot com. And if you would like to support us,
we would always appreciate that, as we are a DIY podcast,
so you can support us via Patreon or you can
buy merch at teapublic, and as always, please leave us
a rating and review. It's the cheapest way to support
us and also the most effective way for new listeners

(02:26:29):
to find us, and we really appreciate that. So everybody,
you know, stay cool and stay out of trouble. Papa
stop recording

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