September 8, 2025 • 40 mins
The Trolley Problem meets Zombies! Enjoy this Live episode on The Last of Us (HBO) from FanExpo Chicago 2025!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Our first idea with this panel, which is who is
a villain?
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Who is a bad guy in this situation of the apodos?
How can we wrap our heads around why people made
the choices that they make in the setting and the
world that we're in.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Absolutely, and.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Something that is really something that we really have to
think about is when you don't have a future, or
your future is really unknown, it's really it can be
really hard to find a purpose that isn't just revenge
based on all the different things that have happened, because
you're gonna the apocalypse, so your bodies and brains are
(00:44):
gonna be just trying to survive the whole time.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
And then the maybe you can have ethically involved trolley problem,
which I think is the central idea that they created
this game and into ut your apartment about a trollet department,
have a whole bunch of people you could say, or
one person, who do you say?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
What do you do?
Speaker 4 (01:05):
I think that's what created is popular. What makes it
in the Dura debate since the first game, you've always
asked it exact question, was Joel right or is Joel
of philintagonist? It's a really powerful debate to have we
have the advantage of having that debate from our position
in society that more or less works. It's imperfect and
full of problems, but it works. Their entire universe and
(01:27):
the apocalypse. Like Britney saying their future is unknown, they
could get infected in the next six seconds. They effected,
could pop out of nowhere and all of a sudden,
your distance is over. There's a really powerful lens to
look at it to make these kinds of questions of
(01:48):
how can someone possibly be.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
Expected to decide.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So in thinking of the narrative of.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I don't know morality like that's also part of the
question too, right, which is in this world setting where so.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Much violence is not just normalized.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
But required and also in some ways I'm sure like dignified, respected, idolized,
that's all is something we have to call into question.
We think about the lengths that Abby goes to, that
Joel goes.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
To, that Melli goes to.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Is we also have to take any consideration that, especially
Brawby and Mellie, that they are people that were born
within this context of like Hoover violence and they don't
really know. I don't know about Abby, but definitely Ellie
doesn't know before time, right, I mean that's part of
the central character. She is born via kind of zombie
(02:42):
bying situation, so she yeah, and so we think about
it from that perspective. You know, I don't know, like
the normalization of violence in the psychology, that there's a
morality there that by us kind of judging any of
these characters may based on the morality of our world,
(03:03):
is doing them a major disservice. But we do that
all the time, you know, when I work with real
clients to the part of families where there's.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
A lot of violence, or there's a lot of criminal behavior,
or there's a lot of aggression.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
You know, part of we have to take into consideration
are those components and not just like I think having
to the components is I think the head idea of this,
which is people hate her, right.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I think the second season she is the bad guy
because she's so.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Myopic in her views, like going after Joel, who we
love because we know the whole story, right Ali, because
we know.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
The whole story.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
But with someone like Abby, she's coming from a background
where all.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
That stuff is very normalized.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
So one that's a part of her morality that we
have to take into consideration, and then also two back,
when you live in a world where there are so
few connections, where there's so much scarcity when it comes
to everything, but also.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Your support system or a family who you love.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
And I think so her winning that revenge for her dad,
for example, also connects to me with my Joel made
the decision he made at the end of the first
season with Ellie. You know Ellie is meaningful to him. Ellie,
it is that scarcely mindset around your support system and
people that matter to you and so, and that's not
even talking about how Joel already lost the daughter and
(04:25):
how is also probably having a trauma reaction in that
moment where I don't even know how much of Joel
is thinking. Yeah, Like, I think there's a part of
Joel that punched forward in that moment, and that's what
we're seeing in the same way that it's your Abby
and Ellie also have that sort of like fight her
warrior part that shows up and takes over in these
(04:46):
moments where they are all at different times rampaging.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
For lack of a better way of putting it, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
I feel like I don't think Joel could have made
a d another decision.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
That's how I feel about it.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
I feel like, yeah, he he had finally had a
purpose again, and he finally had the chance to be
connected to someone else that you really cared about. And
I feel like in that moment, in those moments where
he cause he's off high like he is in his
fight part, he's not taking ten seconds to have a
(05:21):
thoughtful decision about am I gonna.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Kill all these people?
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And you can't take ten seconds when you're in that
kind of setting where you're going in like the exact
I think where mumor all.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Fight and white. You can't think very hard before someone's
coming at you.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
You gonna find a math like it's all instantaneous responses exactly.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
And so I really feel like Joel, there wasn't something
else that Joel could have done. I really I really
believed that about Joel. Was it the right decision? I
I think that was the only decision for Joel.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
Exactly he was.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
He's shut down to it because the idea of connecting
to another version is a burden.
Speaker 5 (06:11):
It's not until he sees her as a daughter that.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
Something changes and awakens in him and reactivates the burdens
I played this game before I became a dad and
I have.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Two little girls. Uh so yeah, who.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
My my wife and I showed her this and she
didn't play the game when I was like, first episode
is straight up steam for seeing the game like, I'm
just gonna warn you, you're gonna get wrecked.
Speaker 5 (06:37):
I guess gonna rerecor you, and then.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Still wrecked me and thinking about it still rough, like
especially being a dad and girls like I don't think
Joel had another decision. I think Brandy is right and
Handa is right. Du could Joel have done something different?
Taking Joel in context, no, was he right nowtally?
Speaker 6 (06:57):
Morally? Of course not.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
However, who's to say there's no the The really in
writing of this game is that it's a chance. It's
a chance, but the only way to make this possible
cure maybe is to destroy the hopes and get one
chance to maybe save everybody.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
But how many medical.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Trials have worked?
Speaker 5 (07:20):
How many who?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Not?
Speaker 4 (07:22):
Nobody considers that factor into it, but we're led to
that's the exam and that Triller problem. This couldn't save everybody,
but Joel has to lose again in a way that
he can't, and he went offline and his pipe part.
His dad cart took him back on it had been
him off and why he kept him Ellie walled up
cause he's got this teenage daughter.
Speaker 5 (07:41):
He's seeing it.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
He like, nope, nope, nope, shut down, shut down, freeze
that out. Can't do it this world.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
She's gonna die. I can't connect to that. No, say
shut down and then go over the clicks.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
And then I also think, like thinking back in on
that when someone has been shut down in a part
of themselves. With Joel is the very vulnerable, soft, you know,
squishy part of him, and so I think, yeah, once
he reopens up to Ellie and decides like I'm.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Gonna feel something for her.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I think that just that of course plays a huge
part in that decision where now I can't lose another daughter.
I can't take that, I can't handle that. I don't
know if he's I don't think he's thinking all that consciously,
but I do think him opening up to her right
before that also is a huge part in him going
after it.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
And then I think it also carries into season too,
where they're having so much trouble relationally.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
And.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Part of that is like, yeah, she I think she
is feeling well. Once she's suspicious, she can smell the.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Whole shittle yas all over him.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
And then two, I can't imagine she doesn't feel tremendous
weight on her about being Joel of God, you know
they're not. They never really figured it out that dynamic.
They weren't really supposed to have a dynamic. And then
all of a sudden they're in the town, in a
community like it's kind of regular Smagnore in a lot
of waves that.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
She's never been exposed to.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
He hasn't been a part of in twenty some years,
and I do feel like he kind of I don't
think intentionally, but he does throw an expectation on her
to be something for him that I.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Do believe even though she wants it. It also stresses her ound.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
You got the personal stresses around, like she's had to
wall off every work since losing her friend, and you
realize that each chance she took brings her close to
the people just because she wants her pain which is
intall over her and takes her out of her survival
most that she feels an't necessary, which is necessary to
get their world to be locked in died in suspicious
(09:54):
because the next person made view your assets that they
needed to survive. And at that point, I if we
all take an honest look at ourselves, how long would
you go hungry before you stole fo Yeah, I don't
even take your head.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Not long?
Speaker 4 (10:10):
Right for those of their parents, how long are your
children gonna go hungry before you start making some extreme
decisions finding a different place in your head to go to?
Speaker 5 (10:19):
I know, I mean it's not long those little girls,
Bryan hungry? Sorry about your real survivor?
Speaker 6 (10:30):
Sorry, like a holler by, you have to come a
little closer to us.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
And there's a mic in the back are here?
Speaker 5 (10:50):
The question about Bill and Frans sol.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Oh, Bill and Frank?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Well, yeah, cause it shows also a big topic of
we're not supposed to be by ourselves, right, we need
other people, whether we like it or not, whether we
want to or not. And and also we get very
protective around that and and shut down and act stand offish,
and well is it Bill or Frank who's the one
that loves the house? O? Bill, He's like a great
(11:43):
example of being that, like, I don't need anybody, And
I think we see that in his pre apocalypse time too,
like that's a that is a protective part of him,
but he's very comfortable and that's a persona that he's
worked up to, and so I do so like I
think those show in all, all in all, does a
really good job of showing how people just protect themselves
(12:07):
against like loneliness, against wanting things that they That's a
big part of this too, is how can you let
yourself want things in this kind of scenario, this kind
of setting. And then if you can't want things, if
you can't hope, if you can't dream, then why not
follow your impulses?
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Why not take revenge?
Speaker 5 (12:28):
You know?
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Like what am I worried about getting get environment at
my job because I want a murder.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Rampage about like what not in finding a partner, having kids?
Like there's so little that you can hold on to
in this world that something like revenge and going full
loan into that does give you purpose, does give you
a sense of self and identity. It's not a healthy one, right,
but I think like that's the course, especially the second season,
is just training that identity from Joel to Adding to
(12:57):
La And where does it stop.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I don't know if it will stop the situation like
this where there aren't really any.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Existential consequences or like hope consequences.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Like dream future planning consequences to do making those choices.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
The canny can you build up like down there there
there you have an area.
Speaker 5 (13:28):
In society whose incidents and.
Speaker 7 (13:33):
That means in ass how does the narratives your flu
societies and own biases and comes in traditional hero And
then I.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
Think it does a brilliant job of that.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Well.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
The Last of Us was my favorite game ever until
Lessons two came out. You know a lot of people
got mad because.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
They you know, they frinched Gol, like, how there are
you rich? See?
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Uh, the male protagonist character that everybody's attached.
Speaker 5 (14:01):
To, how dare you? The neck bears got really angry.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
But it was really in writing to open up what
the story was really about, which was watching.
Speaker 5 (14:11):
Ellie's true Elliot was.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Always your character, not job, and watching that dynamic flip
where you force the audience to flip perspective. You would
in the game you would have to play as Abby
for maybe sixty percent of the game, so you don't
just get the story with one character. You have to
explore the perspectives of all sides of it. And it
(14:33):
is powerful to realize that just because one person sees
something one way, it doesn't meet the other does. And uh,
even some therapies for one group therapy in particular, they
mentioned our last panel psychodone is kind of its cost
the time a little bit.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
But they have one.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Exercise where they literally have you sit in a groupment
and you picked out the person who most reminds you
of the antagonist of the sea. But then the director
the areas will make you flip, so you have to
play from their perspective, so you connect and empathize with
whatever was that creating that person's reactions. In order to
(15:13):
reproduce it in yourself, must advertize with so flipping that
dynamic is is huge and it's powerful.
Speaker 5 (15:20):
I'm excited what they're gonna do with is the show?
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, and I think it's a I don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
It's a be a challenge to us of how honestly
ecocentric it can be. Like that's a lot of part
of our biasses as well, in that I know why
I'm doing what I'm doing, so I must I have.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
A good reason.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
It's like when I A good example of this on
like Psycone one is when you're driving a traffic I.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
Know why I'm cutting people off because I'm late, and
I have good.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Persons to be active like a jerk when i'm driving,
But you're coming off, how dare you? It's because you're
a bad person. It's because you don't think about other people,
because I don't know why they're doing what they're really
but I know why I am. And so with this too,
I it ch challenges that highest we can have from
like an US than ego centric perspective.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Well, I know why I'm killing everybody. I don't know
why Joel's killing everybody, but I can't kill everybody. And
I think actually, what says a lot about maybe the fact.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
That Joel's in therapy in season two and he has
worked on a lot of stuff, is that when he
spoiler does in the very beginning of season two, he
is inviting it right, like he's he kind of has
this face of like it finally caught me, like he
recognizes that he is not the hero, but not in
some ways it's very self deprecating.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
But I think a lot of ways it's just him
being very honest, which is I am the.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Villain of a lot of people's stories, and so this
girl coming after me and killing me is not She's
not wrong. I hate obviously, I don't want to happen
from Ellie, And I think what hurts Ellie and I
think you're about to talk about, Hannah, is that Ellie
is also a teenager, which just pumps up the egocentricism
(17:00):
of I'm right, you're wrong, that person's bad, that person's
not bad. Like if anyone knows any teenagers, or if
you've ever been a teenager, and we all know how
we can get very rigid and very binary about everything.
I think we see that, like in the social media
of like how on TikTok everyone has an opinion, everyone's
(17:21):
like thiring morally on her high horse. And I do
think that's an evolution of this idea that I know
why I'm doing it, you know, and I'm gonna judge
you because you're doing someone differently instead of trying to
be in.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Their own shoes.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
But I don't know if you wanna talk about yeah, La, Yeah,
I was just gonna say that bringing up that she's
a teenager also not just the rigidity, but also the
black and white picking, which is pretty similar. But really
we're really seeing the teenage part of Eli in most
of the second season, Like I really feel like there
(17:57):
wasn't Ali didn't really have that much gross in the
second season. She really is stuck in this. Abby is
the villain. Abby is the person that I have to
get to real mad or what I in my grief.
Yeah yeah, instead of being instead of being sad and
grieving who I lost, I am going after someone else
(18:19):
and that's all that matters, and that's all that I
can focus on because I think also in another way,
with Ellie.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Sh that's what she saw Joel do.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
So also why would we expect that Ellie is not
gonna go after go after something in the same way
that she saw.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Joel do it.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
And in some way that's a way for her to
feeling even close closer than him and aligned with Joel,
is that this is I'm gonna.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Attack just the way that Joel would because I'm Joel's
daughter and it's almost like this and honor in him
by acting like him, and then also by taking revenge
in his name and not really thinking it all the
way through, Like I think you do see her for
me to be not just the role thing, but also
falling in love, like getting her love reciprocated by her
(19:07):
best friend. All that stuff's going on, Like she's in
the moment and and she's not really thinking at all
until we see the very end when she spoiler again
kills that character that's pregnant. I think that's something when
you see what we call him the viz like an
ego death kind of rock bottom moment where she's like,
maybe I maybe I am also but back, like this
(19:30):
is starting to hit a wall where it's not fitting
the story of creating in my head about who I am,
about why I'm doing this, and it's really obviously challenges her.
We see her kind of have and moves from breakdown
in that moment because she is realizing the thing that's
hard for us to realize, which is that, oh, maybe
this is more complicated than I thought it was, which
(19:51):
is really hard, Like once again for like a teenager
to be is able to grass depending on their maturity love.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
It wasn't like Ellie raised in the military thing. I
don't know how it all she.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
Is habby Ellie Sorry, ELA's twenty two, Sorry I met Eli, Sorry,
Ely's twenty two, eh.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I's nineteen or sixteen?
Speaker 5 (20:13):
Oh, Ellie, it's twenty two.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Yeah, anyway, do you have a question?
Speaker 7 (20:20):
Yes's you see what's in Holly Operator.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Now.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
The therapy scene in the first episode of sixty two
is wild.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
I mean, one says she's drove, which is kind of
nuts I can imagine, but.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Also the cluster mess that is the dual relationship idea.
So in therapy, one of the ethical ten commandments is
like dual relationships, like I can't be your friend and
your therapist or your like neighbor and therapist, except for
in situations like this, like they's able to use in school.
(21:00):
It's like if you're in a small town and you're
the only therapist, you might not be able to avoid
make someone's name working their therapist. So there's some ep
ethical exceptions to that, and I think it would probify
if you take up the drinking part of it and
all the other parts them having kind of like a
messier dim It makes sense from that.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
Perspective you got an ethical boundaries, wouldn't reply because at
the small town or other and be bhood and resource.
Speaker 5 (21:28):
But It's Gales.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Scenes were amazing about it, and I really liked her
modeling how sitting with Joel and telling him the hard
truth annoying flipping. The acting was brilliant, really a brilliancause
she was like, there, I said, it was hard, I'm
hate look what I did.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
She just.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
Flipped right back, got it in front of the This
is what happens when you say the hard thing. Nothing
what happened, but Joe can't tolerate it even then that
Joel tells the truth and you can see he's shutting down,
shutting down, shutting down, yep, which is exactly what I
WI am like if we do it is not ready
(22:16):
to share that momen know me what he knows. The
shame and guilty carriers that that part of him that
wanted to refect the daughter showed up, and also they
doomed everyone.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
That's kind of a lot. It's a lot to carry it.
He doesn't even tell Elliot that year until his last
night of her, but seeing her call Joe out and see.
Speaker 8 (22:39):
Who I thought?
Speaker 4 (22:41):
That was a brilliantly redual pair of his character. With
the added publications of I trade therapy.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
For me in this and which only movie well, and
also the dual relationship, which is I am your therapist
and I wanted to fold my uncle.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Detachment, and also you killed my husband.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
And even though I and she does a great job
of naming mat like she's really trying.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I can see where hers as is a therapist, is really.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Trying to stay ethical in a wild, wild wild context.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
And maybe her drinking is her trying to.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Be duel, Like I'm gonna go out as a freak
on this guy that I see today, So maybe if
I take.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
A little end job, I won't be a raging viewer
when I see him. And how ess actually with.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Joel in the back that he operates from such a
place of shame it is, it is like an impossible
situation that they're in together, Like I think they would
do it, Like if you're saying men like best as
they can considering living in resource, but to have to
event sit in front of me and vulnerable in front
of your therapist that you know also might have me
with you for the same reason that you feel bad
(23:57):
about yourself and the things I have to work on,
Like that's it impossible, That's such an impossible circumstance.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Any think she tries having it and as good as
you can, and.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
You probably would have to name more on your own
self just close a lot more of your emotions maybe
in that space, like it would be a mess here
dynamic because you couldn't be as detached and as cool
and calm and collected and unbiased.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
You just can't. And so her naming it was good
and it.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Was hard a lot because I was like, Oh, I
don't know how you've been doing.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Differently about necessarily Yeah, I feel like it would be
wild to be a Gale's shoes, like when I like
even the idea of her being a therapist during that time, and.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Just think, And it made me think a little bit about.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
The pandemic and what it was like to be a
therapist during the pandemic when you're experiencing the same things
as your clients are experiencing, And how my relationship changed
with some of my clients in a good way, not
in a bad way, but it would changed. It changed
because they could see my apartment. It changed because we
(25:07):
were most sad about the same thing. Like it was
a little bit it was a little bit different in
a and but also it was a good way to
have a connection. So I don't even know if I
what I would do. I don't even know if I
would tell anybody I was a therapist, like, like just
because I feel like I really don't. Yeah, it would
just be wild.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
It would be wild.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
I think eventually I'd want to help people just because
that's who I am. But but yeah, that was just
something I wanted to burn out.
Speaker 5 (25:31):
And it's the skill you're having the moorsal mee. So
you're gonna keep doing it in front of a way
to do it.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Yeah, I s getting to be during the strong time,
so it's probably like sign up, sign up.
Speaker 5 (25:41):
But then I how we got more qustions?
Speaker 8 (25:44):
Yeah, a lot.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
The Free construt SA said, how did the new agreements
both been constructive and unimating force? I don't know. It's
a I'm thinking, I promise.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
I think they show revisit that absolutely a destructive force,
but they also show it as the internal connection to
a love lost in a very powerful real way, or
where they're surrounded so much. Why lost and the only
things that ground you back to your humanity are the
connections to the things that make you feel like you
(26:26):
and in extreme circumstances like wars or other things, whether
people carry around the pictures of their loved one or
their girlfriend or whoever, knowing that there is somewhere for
me to find my way back to myself. It's only
again the best record stories like or the readings, for example,
where we get an example of someone going back and
(26:47):
realizing that.
Speaker 5 (26:49):
Not only is home not the same because life we
don't about you, but you're not the same.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
And seeing the impact that proto was amazing, but also
seeing in this story that people, even in the sucustance,
they don't nothing is going back to.
Speaker 5 (27:04):
Be the same. Ever again, they still keep connections cause
the what they lost.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Joe KEEPS's watch, but Eli pieps watched. Ellie keeps Joey's gone,
Elias stays connected to Joel, Joe Stay's connected to his daughter.
Joel and his brother's stay connected. People still get married
Bill and Frankville are other questions, like we see oils
of examples of people staying connected to humanity.
Speaker 5 (27:28):
The story is called Elasted the Boss for a.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Reason, and I say agree, I think that's also where
the real I don't know, like are we going on
ram pages because we don't wanna feel our agree? So
if I have an active mission, I don't have to.
I don't have time to be sad kind of have
the space to be sad. I get to just pop
off and that's something I can focus on, which is why,
(27:51):
like I think you do see those narratives continuing cause
people like.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
People now don't know how to agree.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
You probably can you imagine that even an art start right,
it's like ongoing traumatic grief and being able to like absorb.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
That a whole time.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Like, so people can't do that in the best of
circumstances a lot of a lot a lot of the time,
and so in this one, I.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Don't even know it. Bed fascinating.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Like generations, if like their generations of this society continue,
what they might start to do to grief in terms
of rituals uh leaning ceremony, Like their relationship to grief
is gonna have to be you really change because so
much of their society.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Now is dictated by grief and grieving the life that was,
the life that will believe all that stuff?
Speaker 5 (28:39):
Question, Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Won't.
Speaker 5 (28:44):
I don't care since when I'll go I'll go close.
Speaker 8 (28:48):
I mean, so you know that ear and stuff in
se game early? Are you going, sous most?
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (29:04):
Where else?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
I uh, she was gone.
Speaker 5 (29:11):
Fo ah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Where was?
Speaker 5 (29:24):
I feel like the most care and you're you're interest.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
A fool.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Say the last part again, m fool fool. I'm sorry,
I'm having a hard time with the last part.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
The uh uh the dry right, Elli bikes your brothers
all the time?
Speaker 1 (29:46):
First that I be I kind of have a one
of the non missions.
Speaker 5 (29:49):
Yeah, you got any of what you're interesting in the game.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
What the show is probably gonna take you no seasons
to get to, right, at least the long game is
see you see a lot more growth out of Aby
in the game than you do have. It takes a
long time, and even at the end, I don't know
that Allie until the beach team. Maybe after they have
(30:13):
their fight. Yeah, I don't even in school and.
Speaker 9 (30:20):
He s at moment you can find m d right
and going home and finding Deva out there, yeah, maybe.
Speaker 5 (30:31):
Alone the biggest year's.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Right, I think if I'm remembering that the game, right,
was it is it left that picks up Abby or
does it every w you Camembert right, that's right, cause
if the growth is Abby's trying to get to the left.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
It's also there with her right. Yeah, so you see
love grows.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
So they don't their mirror images of each other, but
they're moving in the opposite directions.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
Kind of like Bill and Joel, like they started kind
of the.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Same places where they go in totally different directions. This
game is full of mirrors of the people having the
opportunity to look at how you'll like you go if
you like connection back and Abbie, let's go up her
and stops trying to fight Ellie long again. I don't
know the start of the start of the game maybe,
(31:26):
but she's being hunted by Ellie now who does not
grow until that fight at the beach in Santa Mounta
are releases. It's a really powerful story to look at
that example. It's a great point that they are total
mirrors of each other. You're seeing that poison that the raging.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Comes you, will you have a goot? Spend more minutes?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
And there are any other questions I just wanna make
sure maybe rooms anywhere s thoughts or questions, Okay, I
don't know, trying to think if there are any other
points wanted to articulate.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
There's I want to say about grief.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Oh wow, there was something that I wanted to say
more about grief. I think something else that we see
in a world like this is that grief doesn't feel
like action, anger, revenge.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
That feels like action, That feels like something that I
can do.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
And I think when people are so shut down, it's
so overwhelmed, they'll lean into something that feels like, at
least I'm doing something about this. At least I'm fighting.
At least I'm doing something. And so I think that's
another way that people pull back from their grief and
go into more action brand and things that they're doing.
Like I'll give you an example from a client that
(32:40):
I've had before.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
So I have couples, right, So I work with couples
and families.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
I have a couple people that will, after maybe like
five or six sessions, let's send me an email and
say they're just gonna date each other for a little while.
They're not gonna do couples that are banning Moore. They're
just gonna date them. They're gonna date each.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
Other for a little while.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
And that's when those examples of they can't be in it.
They're not ready to be in it, they're not ready
to look at the things they have to look at.
Because again, like I said in the Thunderbolts panels that
we did earlier.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
The only way to trauma is through.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
And so wanted to do on the dating is like
a restart act oriented And I also say too, and
you know, I kind of like a get a moment
from watching traina side oh so ready too that I
think is very unclear about maybe even talking about the
Abby thing and only thing too is how much we
romanticize the idea of closure. That's something I see all
(33:37):
the time working with regular stringular people as clients, and
how we idealize and romanticize this idea of a closure.
Once I do this thing, once I kill Jewel, I
won't feel like the sinner. And I think for even
like someone like Abby Ellie's that the next wave is
(33:58):
kind of almost trauma with another and this kind of
next existential.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Breakdown is, oh, I did this thing that I've put
all my time and.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Energy in and I don't necessarily feel any different or
better or the feelings of having or feel here or
maybe now that the mission is over all I have less.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Now are the ways that I feel.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
And something I try to encourage everyone I work with
and also myself is the sneaky seduction, the temptation of
this idea of closure and that I just have to
do this thing, or I have to have this talk
with my ex, or I have to finally have this
out with my dad. And then once I do that thing,
(34:41):
I will just oo. I'll mean light is a federal
I'll have no problem. So I'll was totally self factualized.
Then I could move on with my life because also
I think what is sad about the LA thing, for example,
and like relations with Dina, the fact that DNA is.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Pregnant, is that there is.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Another patch to take and the all and like build
a life that is positive, that could need something to
her and that has the future right and the story
that it seems like Elie has is I can't start.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
That life until I've closed this chapter.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Until I've killed all people I gotta kill, and I
work with people have been the same idea with themselves
all the time.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
If I can't, I can't move forward until this thing
has happened.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
And how much that limits our life Honestly, you can
limits our perspective. And then also it keeps us it
keeps our development in the hands of usually other people,
and other things like we're not empowering ourselves, like I
can make a choice no matter what. And with someone
in like Ella's positions and adding too, like I can
(35:46):
only feel this way as I get this certain reaction
or this certain oundcom that and bovet other people and
all the delomers who actually aren't in my control. And
how disempowering that is, even in these situations where it
doesn't look as powering because they're making so much, so
many choices, it makings to be acting and being so
like powerful and dangerous and whatever it's it like. It
(36:11):
is a Jefson, It is a commersonal and ideas that.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
I really encourage your people to sit up and not
be able to stop the universe. The universe continues to
move on and the innutrians of all times. Your story
is not the most to work onstor but it's really
hard to tell yourself that I feel this way so
I deserve justice.
Speaker 5 (36:31):
But the way this story shows all the layers and
complications and the costs of limiting your focus to that.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
I love, love, love to talk back at again because
literally director understood the uh assign what she was saying.
Speaker 5 (36:46):
We show at Ella every opportunity.
Speaker 4 (36:48):
Ellie has an opportunity to take an offering from this
path and have a better life like we see the
Bill and Frank, like we see being a offering from
over and over again. I love being scared of her,
but she's such an import of oil. It continuing to
like I'll respond to this darkness, but it's not going
to take you. And you see it over and over
(37:09):
and my Jo's brother's name is maybe you.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
No, I'm king Tommy Tony Tony to thank you Tommy.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
You see, Tony and his wife were like, it's boring
that darkness the way like, but we can't keep doing this,
like we have to just set our mission and hold
to it that it's to move like ful, all.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
These bad things happen are happening all the time. I
don't know which one's works.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
Things would neither do nor bad, but thinking makes them so.
It's remains true to see if in the story over
and over that if you march, you lost in your harea,
her will get stuck in a mold.
Speaker 5 (37:43):
It doesn't suit you to do and suit at that moment,
but if you don't recognize the moment has changed you.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
To say stuff, yeah, even just recognizing that we always
can make the choice to move on, like the objective
choice like that as the bull it's not as easy
as like I'm just gonna move on, cause we think
that moving on is I won't have these feelings and
or I won't have this trauma and that's like going
back to the closure I do. But it's insensing like
(38:11):
I can act as if I'm moving on and what
does that look like?
Speaker 1 (38:14):
And you're like, you're saying, like do you not? In
the second season, she's.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Getting all these opportunities to go different around even Jesse.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Yeah, Jesse's like the active parts of the news.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Like we don't have to do this, like you can
just I don't know, do something else. And she's like, no, no, no,
I can't move on from this. And it's a sad
thing to realize, like we all can have the opportunity
to like choose to may getive a choice, choose to
move on and choose to work on why we feel
like we can't.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
So we only have I think a few more minutes.
Any other last points you want to make, any other last.
Speaker 4 (38:53):
Questions, Let's say a short answer, what's your life, Benjamin?
Speaker 1 (39:03):
How dare you?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
I think if I want anyone to come boys from
this is that I don't think there is a writer.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
It's their heads. Did you ever about apples? Is the
people you all? In context? What's your writers? A different class?
Was your right in order context? But think it's one
of those in larger contexts such a complicated Russian less
and such a mean you're.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
In the property. Well, if you enjoyed what you heard today,
Like I said, we have.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
A podcast, Comfort Psychology, you can fight us anywhere Spotify,
Apple Podcasts anywhere. And we've been going on how we're
on our if season or were We just released an
episode on Big Fish, Moonstruck, Thunderbolts like the cover, Like
every genre, we don't just do superhero fakes.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
We don't just do sci fi stuff.
Speaker 5 (39:52):
We do everything.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
And so if you found this interesting and you wanna
learn more, please find us everywhere.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
We're also on Instagram, Facebook, and take tack apop from
Psychology and yeah, if anyone want to set any cancels, however,
pen w the trough or capstack or capstick, especially if
you ask a question you want to reward you.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Alright, thank you everyone for showing us. Maybe
Our first idea with this panel, which is who is
a villain?
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Who is a bad guy in this situation of the apodos?
How can we wrap our heads around why people made
the choices that they make in the setting and the
world that we're in.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Absolutely, and.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Something that is really something that we really have to
think about is when you don't have a future, or
your future is really unknown, it's really it can be
really hard to find a purpose that isn't just revenge
based on all the different things that have happened, because
you're gonna the apocalypse, so your bodies and brains are
(00:44):
gonna be just trying to survive the whole time.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
And then the maybe you can have ethically involved trolley problem,
which I think is the central idea that they created
this game and into ut your apartment about a trollet department,
have a whole bunch of people you could say, or
one person, who do you say?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
What do you do?
Speaker 4 (01:05):
I think that's what created is popular. What makes it
in the Dura debate since the first game, you've always
asked it exact question, was Joel right or is Joel
of philintagonist? It's a really powerful debate to have we
have the advantage of having that debate from our position
in society that more or less works. It's imperfect and
full of problems, but it works. Their entire universe and
(01:27):
the apocalypse. Like Britney saying their future is unknown, they
could get infected in the next six seconds. They effected,
could pop out of nowhere and all of a sudden,
your distance is over. There's a really powerful lens to
look at it to make these kinds of questions of
(01:48):
how can someone possibly be.
Speaker 5 (01:50):
Expected to decide.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So in thinking of the narrative of.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I don't know morality like that's also part of the
question too, right, which is in this world setting where so.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Much violence is not just normalized.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
But required and also in some ways I'm sure like dignified, respected, idolized,
that's all is something we have to call into question.
We think about the lengths that Abby goes to, that
Joel goes.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
To, that Melli goes to.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Is we also have to take any consideration that, especially
Brawby and Mellie, that they are people that were born
within this context of like Hoover violence and they don't
really know. I don't know about Abby, but definitely Ellie
doesn't know before time, right, I mean that's part of
the central character. She is born via kind of zombie
(02:42):
bying situation, so she yeah, and so we think about
it from that perspective. You know, I don't know, like
the normalization of violence in the psychology, that there's a
morality there that by us kind of judging any of
these characters may based on the morality of our world,
(03:03):
is doing them a major disservice. But we do that
all the time, you know, when I work with real
clients to the part of families where there's.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
A lot of violence, or there's a lot of criminal behavior,
or there's a lot of aggression.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
You know, part of we have to take into consideration
are those components and not just like I think having
to the components is I think the head idea of this,
which is people hate her, right.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I think the second season she is the bad guy
because she's so.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Myopic in her views, like going after Joel, who we
love because we know the whole story, right Ali, because
we know.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
The whole story.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
But with someone like Abby, she's coming from a background
where all.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
That stuff is very normalized.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
So one that's a part of her morality that we
have to take into consideration, and then also two back,
when you live in a world where there are so
few connections, where there's so much scarcity when it comes
to everything, but also.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Your support system or a family who you love.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
And I think so her winning that revenge for her dad,
for example, also connects to me with my Joel made
the decision he made at the end of the first
season with Ellie. You know Ellie is meaningful to him. Ellie,
it is that scarcely mindset around your support system and
people that matter to you and so, and that's not
even talking about how Joel already lost the daughter and
(04:25):
how is also probably having a trauma reaction in that
moment where I don't even know how much of Joel
is thinking. Yeah, Like, I think there's a part of
Joel that punched forward in that moment, and that's what
we're seeing in the same way that it's your Abby
and Ellie also have that sort of like fight her
warrior part that shows up and takes over in these
(04:46):
moments where they are all at different times rampaging.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
For lack of a better way of putting it, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
I feel like I don't think Joel could have made
a d another decision.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
That's how I feel about it.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
I feel like, yeah, he he had finally had a
purpose again, and he finally had the chance to be
connected to someone else that you really cared about. And
I feel like in that moment, in those moments where
he cause he's off high like he is in his
fight part, he's not taking ten seconds to have a
(05:21):
thoughtful decision about am I gonna.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Kill all these people?
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And you can't take ten seconds when you're in that
kind of setting where you're going in like the exact
I think where mumor all.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Fight and white. You can't think very hard before someone's
coming at you.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
You gonna find a math like it's all instantaneous responses exactly.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
And so I really feel like Joel, there wasn't something
else that Joel could have done. I really I really
believed that about Joel. Was it the right decision? I
I think that was the only decision for Joel.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
Exactly he was.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
He's shut down to it because the idea of connecting
to another version is a burden.
Speaker 5 (06:11):
It's not until he sees her as a daughter that.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
Something changes and awakens in him and reactivates the burdens
I played this game before I became a dad and
I have.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Two little girls. Uh so yeah, who.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
My my wife and I showed her this and she
didn't play the game when I was like, first episode
is straight up steam for seeing the game like, I'm
just gonna warn you, you're gonna get wrecked.
Speaker 5 (06:37):
I guess gonna rerecor you, and then.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Still wrecked me and thinking about it still rough, like
especially being a dad and girls like I don't think
Joel had another decision. I think Brandy is right and
Handa is right. Du could Joel have done something different?
Taking Joel in context, no, was he right nowtally?
Speaker 6 (06:57):
Morally? Of course not.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
However, who's to say there's no the The really in
writing of this game is that it's a chance. It's
a chance, but the only way to make this possible
cure maybe is to destroy the hopes and get one
chance to maybe save everybody.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
But how many medical.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Trials have worked?
Speaker 5 (07:20):
How many who?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Not?
Speaker 4 (07:22):
Nobody considers that factor into it, but we're led to
that's the exam and that Triller problem. This couldn't save everybody,
but Joel has to lose again in a way that
he can't, and he went offline and his pipe part.
His dad cart took him back on it had been
him off and why he kept him Ellie walled up
cause he's got this teenage daughter.
Speaker 5 (07:41):
He's seeing it.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
He like, nope, nope, nope, shut down, shut down, freeze
that out. Can't do it this world.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
She's gonna die. I can't connect to that. No, say
shut down and then go over the clicks.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
And then I also think, like thinking back in on
that when someone has been shut down in a part
of themselves. With Joel is the very vulnerable, soft, you know,
squishy part of him, and so I think, yeah, once
he reopens up to Ellie and decides like I'm.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Gonna feel something for her.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I think that just that of course plays a huge
part in that decision where now I can't lose another daughter.
I can't take that, I can't handle that. I don't
know if he's I don't think he's thinking all that consciously,
but I do think him opening up to her right
before that also is a huge part in him going
after it.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
And then I think it also carries into season too,
where they're having so much trouble relationally.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
And.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Part of that is like, yeah, she I think she
is feeling well. Once she's suspicious, she can smell the.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Whole shittle yas all over him.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
And then two, I can't imagine she doesn't feel tremendous
weight on her about being Joel of God, you know
they're not. They never really figured it out that dynamic.
They weren't really supposed to have a dynamic. And then
all of a sudden they're in the town, in a
community like it's kind of regular Smagnore in a lot
of waves that.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
She's never been exposed to.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
He hasn't been a part of in twenty some years,
and I do feel like he kind of I don't
think intentionally, but he does throw an expectation on her
to be something for him that I.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Do believe even though she wants it. It also stresses her ound.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
You got the personal stresses around, like she's had to
wall off every work since losing her friend, and you
realize that each chance she took brings her close to
the people just because she wants her pain which is
intall over her and takes her out of her survival
most that she feels an't necessary, which is necessary to
get their world to be locked in died in suspicious
(09:54):
because the next person made view your assets that they
needed to survive. And at that point, I if we
all take an honest look at ourselves, how long would
you go hungry before you stole fo Yeah, I don't
even take your head.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Not long?
Speaker 4 (10:10):
Right for those of their parents, how long are your
children gonna go hungry before you start making some extreme
decisions finding a different place in your head to go to?
Speaker 5 (10:19):
I know, I mean it's not long those little girls,
Bryan hungry? Sorry about your real survivor?
Speaker 6 (10:30):
Sorry, like a holler by, you have to come a
little closer to us.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
And there's a mic in the back are here?
Speaker 5 (10:50):
The question about Bill and Frans sol.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Oh, Bill and Frank?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Well, yeah, cause it shows also a big topic of
we're not supposed to be by ourselves, right, we need
other people, whether we like it or not, whether we
want to or not. And and also we get very
protective around that and and shut down and act stand offish,
and well is it Bill or Frank who's the one
that loves the house? O? Bill, He's like a great
(11:43):
example of being that, like, I don't need anybody, And
I think we see that in his pre apocalypse time too,
like that's a that is a protective part of him,
but he's very comfortable and that's a persona that he's
worked up to, and so I do so like I
think those show in all, all in all, does a
really good job of showing how people just protect themselves
(12:07):
against like loneliness, against wanting things that they That's a
big part of this too, is how can you let
yourself want things in this kind of scenario, this kind
of setting. And then if you can't want things, if
you can't hope, if you can't dream, then why not
follow your impulses?
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Why not take revenge?
Speaker 5 (12:28):
You know?
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Like what am I worried about getting get environment at
my job because I want a murder.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Rampage about like what not in finding a partner, having kids?
Like there's so little that you can hold on to
in this world that something like revenge and going full
loan into that does give you purpose, does give you
a sense of self and identity. It's not a healthy one, right,
but I think like that's the course, especially the second season,
is just training that identity from Joel to Adding to
(12:57):
La And where does it stop.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I don't know if it will stop the situation like
this where there aren't really any.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Existential consequences or like hope consequences.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Like dream future planning consequences to do making those choices.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
The canny can you build up like down there there
there you have an area.
Speaker 5 (13:28):
In society whose incidents and.
Speaker 7 (13:33):
That means in ass how does the narratives your flu
societies and own biases and comes in traditional hero And
then I.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
Think it does a brilliant job of that.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Well.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
The Last of Us was my favorite game ever until
Lessons two came out. You know a lot of people
got mad because.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
They you know, they frinched Gol, like, how there are
you rich? See?
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Uh, the male protagonist character that everybody's attached.
Speaker 5 (14:01):
To, how dare you? The neck bears got really angry.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
But it was really in writing to open up what
the story was really about, which was watching.
Speaker 5 (14:11):
Ellie's true Elliot was.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Always your character, not job, and watching that dynamic flip
where you force the audience to flip perspective. You would
in the game you would have to play as Abby
for maybe sixty percent of the game, so you don't
just get the story with one character. You have to
explore the perspectives of all sides of it. And it
(14:33):
is powerful to realize that just because one person sees
something one way, it doesn't meet the other does. And uh,
even some therapies for one group therapy in particular, they
mentioned our last panel psychodone is kind of its cost
the time a little bit.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
But they have one.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Exercise where they literally have you sit in a groupment
and you picked out the person who most reminds you
of the antagonist of the sea. But then the director
the areas will make you flip, so you have to
play from their perspective, so you connect and empathize with
whatever was that creating that person's reactions. In order to
(15:13):
reproduce it in yourself, must advertize with so flipping that
dynamic is is huge and it's powerful.
Speaker 5 (15:20):
I'm excited what they're gonna do with is the show?
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, and I think it's a I don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
It's a be a challenge to us of how honestly
ecocentric it can be. Like that's a lot of part
of our biasses as well, in that I know why
I'm doing what I'm doing, so I must I have.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
A good reason.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
It's like when I A good example of this on
like Psycone one is when you're driving a traffic I.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
Know why I'm cutting people off because I'm late, and
I have good.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Persons to be active like a jerk when i'm driving,
But you're coming off, how dare you? It's because you're
a bad person. It's because you don't think about other people,
because I don't know why they're doing what they're really
but I know why I am. And so with this too,
I it ch challenges that highest we can have from
like an US than ego centric perspective.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Well, I know why I'm killing everybody. I don't know
why Joel's killing everybody, but I can't kill everybody. And
I think actually, what says a lot about maybe the fact.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
That Joel's in therapy in season two and he has
worked on a lot of stuff, is that when he
spoiler does in the very beginning of season two, he
is inviting it right, like he's he kind of has
this face of like it finally caught me, like he
recognizes that he is not the hero, but not in
some ways it's very self deprecating.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
But I think a lot of ways it's just him
being very honest, which is I am the.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Villain of a lot of people's stories, and so this
girl coming after me and killing me is not She's
not wrong. I hate obviously, I don't want to happen
from Ellie, And I think what hurts Ellie and I
think you're about to talk about, Hannah, is that Ellie
is also a teenager, which just pumps up the egocentricism
(17:00):
of I'm right, you're wrong, that person's bad, that person's
not bad. Like if anyone knows any teenagers, or if
you've ever been a teenager, and we all know how
we can get very rigid and very binary about everything.
I think we see that, like in the social media
of like how on TikTok everyone has an opinion, everyone's
(17:21):
like thiring morally on her high horse. And I do
think that's an evolution of this idea that I know
why I'm doing it, you know, and I'm gonna judge
you because you're doing someone differently instead of trying to
be in.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Their own shoes.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
But I don't know if you wanna talk about yeah, La, Yeah,
I was just gonna say that bringing up that she's
a teenager also not just the rigidity, but also the
black and white picking, which is pretty similar. But really
we're really seeing the teenage part of Eli in most
of the second season, Like I really feel like there
(17:57):
wasn't Ali didn't really have that much gross in the
second season. She really is stuck in this. Abby is
the villain. Abby is the person that I have to
get to real mad or what I in my grief.
Yeah yeah, instead of being instead of being sad and
grieving who I lost, I am going after someone else
(18:19):
and that's all that matters, and that's all that I
can focus on because I think also in another way,
with Ellie.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Sh that's what she saw Joel do.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
So also why would we expect that Ellie is not
gonna go after go after something in the same way
that she saw.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Joel do it.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
And in some way that's a way for her to
feeling even close closer than him and aligned with Joel,
is that this is I'm gonna.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Attack just the way that Joel would because I'm Joel's
daughter and it's almost like this and honor in him
by acting like him, and then also by taking revenge
in his name and not really thinking it all the
way through, Like I think you do see her for
me to be not just the role thing, but also
falling in love, like getting her love reciprocated by her
(19:07):
best friend. All that stuff's going on, Like she's in
the moment and and she's not really thinking at all
until we see the very end when she spoiler again
kills that character that's pregnant. I think that's something when
you see what we call him the viz like an
ego death kind of rock bottom moment where she's like,
maybe I maybe I am also but back, like this
(19:30):
is starting to hit a wall where it's not fitting
the story of creating in my head about who I am,
about why I'm doing this, and it's really obviously challenges her.
We see her kind of have and moves from breakdown
in that moment because she is realizing the thing that's
hard for us to realize, which is that, oh, maybe
this is more complicated than I thought it was, which
(19:51):
is really hard, Like once again for like a teenager
to be is able to grass depending on their maturity love.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
It wasn't like Ellie raised in the military thing. I
don't know how it all she.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
Is habby Ellie Sorry, ELA's twenty two, Sorry I met Eli, Sorry,
Ely's twenty two, eh.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I's nineteen or sixteen?
Speaker 5 (20:13):
Oh, Ellie, it's twenty two.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Yeah, anyway, do you have a question?
Speaker 7 (20:20):
Yes's you see what's in Holly Operator.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Now.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
The therapy scene in the first episode of sixty two
is wild.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
I mean, one says she's drove, which is kind of
nuts I can imagine, but.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Also the cluster mess that is the dual relationship idea.
So in therapy, one of the ethical ten commandments is
like dual relationships, like I can't be your friend and
your therapist or your like neighbor and therapist, except for
in situations like this, like they's able to use in school.
(21:00):
It's like if you're in a small town and you're
the only therapist, you might not be able to avoid
make someone's name working their therapist. So there's some ep
ethical exceptions to that, and I think it would probify
if you take up the drinking part of it and
all the other parts them having kind of like a
messier dim It makes sense from that.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
Perspective you got an ethical boundaries, wouldn't reply because at
the small town or other and be bhood and resource.
Speaker 5 (21:28):
But It's Gales.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Scenes were amazing about it, and I really liked her
modeling how sitting with Joel and telling him the hard
truth annoying flipping. The acting was brilliant, really a brilliancause
she was like, there, I said, it was hard, I'm
hate look what I did.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
She just.
Speaker 4 (21:56):
Flipped right back, got it in front of the This
is what happens when you say the hard thing. Nothing
what happened, but Joe can't tolerate it even then that
Joel tells the truth and you can see he's shutting down,
shutting down, shutting down, yep, which is exactly what I
WI am like if we do it is not ready
(22:16):
to share that momen know me what he knows. The
shame and guilty carriers that that part of him that
wanted to refect the daughter showed up, and also they
doomed everyone.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
That's kind of a lot. It's a lot to carry it.
He doesn't even tell Elliot that year until his last
night of her, but seeing her call Joe out and see.
Speaker 8 (22:39):
Who I thought?
Speaker 4 (22:41):
That was a brilliantly redual pair of his character. With
the added publications of I trade therapy.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
For me in this and which only movie well, and
also the dual relationship, which is I am your therapist
and I wanted to fold my uncle.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Detachment, and also you killed my husband.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
And even though I and she does a great job
of naming mat like she's really trying.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I can see where hers as is a therapist, is really.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Trying to stay ethical in a wild, wild wild context.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
And maybe her drinking is her trying to.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Be duel, Like I'm gonna go out as a freak
on this guy that I see today, So maybe if
I take.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
A little end job, I won't be a raging viewer
when I see him. And how ess actually with.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Joel in the back that he operates from such a
place of shame it is, it is like an impossible
situation that they're in together, Like I think they would
do it, Like if you're saying men like best as
they can considering living in resource, but to have to
event sit in front of me and vulnerable in front
of your therapist that you know also might have me
with you for the same reason that you feel bad
(23:57):
about yourself and the things I have to work on,
Like that's it impossible, That's such an impossible circumstance.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Any think she tries having it and as good as
you can, and.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
You probably would have to name more on your own
self just close a lot more of your emotions maybe
in that space, like it would be a mess here
dynamic because you couldn't be as detached and as cool
and calm and collected and unbiased.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
You just can't. And so her naming it was good
and it.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Was hard a lot because I was like, Oh, I
don't know how you've been doing.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Differently about necessarily Yeah, I feel like it would be
wild to be a Gale's shoes, like when I like
even the idea of her being a therapist during that time, and.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Just think, And it made me think a little bit about.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
The pandemic and what it was like to be a
therapist during the pandemic when you're experiencing the same things
as your clients are experiencing, And how my relationship changed
with some of my clients in a good way, not
in a bad way, but it would changed. It changed
because they could see my apartment. It changed because we
(25:07):
were most sad about the same thing. Like it was
a little bit it was a little bit different in
a and but also it was a good way to
have a connection. So I don't even know if I
what I would do. I don't even know if I
would tell anybody I was a therapist, like, like just
because I feel like I really don't. Yeah, it would
just be wild.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
It would be wild.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
I think eventually I'd want to help people just because
that's who I am. But but yeah, that was just
something I wanted to burn out.
Speaker 5 (25:31):
And it's the skill you're having the moorsal mee. So
you're gonna keep doing it in front of a way
to do it.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Yeah, I s getting to be during the strong time,
so it's probably like sign up, sign up.
Speaker 5 (25:41):
But then I how we got more qustions?
Speaker 8 (25:44):
Yeah, a lot.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
The Free construt SA said, how did the new agreements
both been constructive and unimating force? I don't know. It's
a I'm thinking, I promise.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
I think they show revisit that absolutely a destructive force,
but they also show it as the internal connection to
a love lost in a very powerful real way, or
where they're surrounded so much. Why lost and the only
things that ground you back to your humanity are the
connections to the things that make you feel like you
(26:26):
and in extreme circumstances like wars or other things, whether
people carry around the pictures of their loved one or
their girlfriend or whoever, knowing that there is somewhere for
me to find my way back to myself. It's only
again the best record stories like or the readings, for example,
where we get an example of someone going back and
(26:47):
realizing that.
Speaker 5 (26:49):
Not only is home not the same because life we
don't about you, but you're not the same.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
And seeing the impact that proto was amazing, but also
seeing in this story that people, even in the sucustance,
they don't nothing is going back to.
Speaker 5 (27:04):
Be the same. Ever again, they still keep connections cause
the what they lost.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Joe KEEPS's watch, but Eli pieps watched. Ellie keeps Joey's gone,
Elias stays connected to Joel, Joe Stay's connected to his daughter.
Joel and his brother's stay connected. People still get married
Bill and Frankville are other questions, like we see oils
of examples of people staying connected to humanity.
Speaker 5 (27:28):
The story is called Elasted the Boss for a.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Reason, and I say agree, I think that's also where
the real I don't know, like are we going on
ram pages because we don't wanna feel our agree? So
if I have an active mission, I don't have to.
I don't have time to be sad kind of have
the space to be sad. I get to just pop
off and that's something I can focus on, which is why,
(27:51):
like I think you do see those narratives continuing cause
people like.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
People now don't know how to agree.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
You probably can you imagine that even an art start right,
it's like ongoing traumatic grief and being able to like absorb.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
That a whole time.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Like, so people can't do that in the best of
circumstances a lot of a lot a lot of the time,
and so in this one, I.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Don't even know it. Bed fascinating.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Like generations, if like their generations of this society continue,
what they might start to do to grief in terms
of rituals uh leaning ceremony, Like their relationship to grief
is gonna have to be you really change because so
much of their society.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Now is dictated by grief and grieving the life that was,
the life that will believe all that stuff?
Speaker 5 (28:39):
Question, Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Won't.
Speaker 5 (28:44):
I don't care since when I'll go I'll go close.
Speaker 8 (28:48):
I mean, so you know that ear and stuff in
se game early? Are you going, sous most?
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (29:04):
Where else?
Speaker 3 (29:06):
I uh, she was gone.
Speaker 5 (29:11):
Fo ah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Where was?
Speaker 5 (29:24):
I feel like the most care and you're you're interest.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
A fool.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Say the last part again, m fool fool. I'm sorry,
I'm having a hard time with the last part.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
The uh uh the dry right, Elli bikes your brothers
all the time?
Speaker 1 (29:46):
First that I be I kind of have a one
of the non missions.
Speaker 5 (29:49):
Yeah, you got any of what you're interesting in the game.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
What the show is probably gonna take you no seasons
to get to, right, at least the long game is
see you see a lot more growth out of Aby
in the game than you do have. It takes a
long time, and even at the end, I don't know
that Allie until the beach team. Maybe after they have
(30:13):
their fight. Yeah, I don't even in school and.
Speaker 9 (30:20):
He s at moment you can find m d right
and going home and finding Deva out there, yeah, maybe.
Speaker 5 (30:31):
Alone the biggest year's.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Right, I think if I'm remembering that the game, right,
was it is it left that picks up Abby or
does it every w you Camembert right, that's right, cause
if the growth is Abby's trying to get to the left.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
It's also there with her right. Yeah, so you see
love grows.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
So they don't their mirror images of each other, but
they're moving in the opposite directions.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
Kind of like Bill and Joel, like they started kind
of the.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Same places where they go in totally different directions. This
game is full of mirrors of the people having the
opportunity to look at how you'll like you go if
you like connection back and Abbie, let's go up her
and stops trying to fight Ellie long again. I don't
know the start of the start of the game maybe,
(31:26):
but she's being hunted by Ellie now who does not
grow until that fight at the beach in Santa Mounta
are releases. It's a really powerful story to look at
that example. It's a great point that they are total
mirrors of each other. You're seeing that poison that the raging.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Comes you, will you have a goot? Spend more minutes?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
And there are any other questions I just wanna make
sure maybe rooms anywhere s thoughts or questions, Okay, I
don't know, trying to think if there are any other
points wanted to articulate.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
There's I want to say about grief.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Oh wow, there was something that I wanted to say
more about grief. I think something else that we see
in a world like this is that grief doesn't feel
like action, anger, revenge.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
That feels like action, That feels like something that I
can do.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
And I think when people are so shut down, it's
so overwhelmed, they'll lean into something that feels like, at
least I'm doing something about this. At least I'm fighting.
At least I'm doing something. And so I think that's
another way that people pull back from their grief and
go into more action brand and things that they're doing.
Like I'll give you an example from a client that
(32:40):
I've had before.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
So I have couples, right, So I work with couples
and families.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
I have a couple people that will, after maybe like
five or six sessions, let's send me an email and
say they're just gonna date each other for a little while.
They're not gonna do couples that are banning Moore. They're
just gonna date them. They're gonna date each.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
Other for a little while.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
And that's when those examples of they can't be in it.
They're not ready to be in it, they're not ready
to look at the things they have to look at.
Because again, like I said in the Thunderbolts panels that
we did earlier.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
The only way to trauma is through.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
And so wanted to do on the dating is like
a restart act oriented And I also say too, and
you know, I kind of like a get a moment
from watching traina side oh so ready too that I
think is very unclear about maybe even talking about the
Abby thing and only thing too is how much we
romanticize the idea of closure. That's something I see all
(33:37):
the time working with regular stringular people as clients, and
how we idealize and romanticize this idea of a closure.
Once I do this thing, once I kill Jewel, I
won't feel like the sinner. And I think for even
like someone like Abby Ellie's that the next wave is
(33:58):
kind of almost trauma with another and this kind of
next existential.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Breakdown is, oh, I did this thing that I've put
all my time and.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Energy in and I don't necessarily feel any different or
better or the feelings of having or feel here or
maybe now that the mission is over all I have less.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Now are the ways that I feel.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
And something I try to encourage everyone I work with
and also myself is the sneaky seduction, the temptation of
this idea of closure and that I just have to
do this thing, or I have to have this talk
with my ex, or I have to finally have this
out with my dad. And then once I do that thing,
(34:41):
I will just oo. I'll mean light is a federal
I'll have no problem. So I'll was totally self factualized.
Then I could move on with my life because also
I think what is sad about the LA thing, for example,
and like relations with Dina, the fact that DNA is.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Pregnant, is that there is.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Another patch to take and the all and like build
a life that is positive, that could need something to
her and that has the future right and the story
that it seems like Elie has is I can't start.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
That life until I've closed this chapter.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Until I've killed all people I gotta kill, and I
work with people have been the same idea with themselves
all the time.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
If I can't, I can't move forward until this thing
has happened.
Speaker 2 (35:26):
And how much that limits our life Honestly, you can
limits our perspective. And then also it keeps us it
keeps our development in the hands of usually other people,
and other things like we're not empowering ourselves, like I
can make a choice no matter what. And with someone
in like Ella's positions and adding too, like I can
(35:46):
only feel this way as I get this certain reaction
or this certain oundcom that and bovet other people and
all the delomers who actually aren't in my control. And
how disempowering that is, even in these situations where it
doesn't look as powering because they're making so much, so
many choices, it makings to be acting and being so
like powerful and dangerous and whatever it's it like. It
(36:11):
is a Jefson, It is a commersonal and ideas that.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
I really encourage your people to sit up and not
be able to stop the universe. The universe continues to
move on and the innutrians of all times. Your story
is not the most to work onstor but it's really
hard to tell yourself that I feel this way so
I deserve justice.
Speaker 5 (36:31):
But the way this story shows all the layers and
complications and the costs of limiting your focus to that.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
I love, love, love to talk back at again because
literally director understood the uh assign what she was saying.
Speaker 5 (36:46):
We show at Ella every opportunity.
Speaker 4 (36:48):
Ellie has an opportunity to take an offering from this
path and have a better life like we see the
Bill and Frank, like we see being a offering from
over and over again. I love being scared of her,
but she's such an import of oil. It continuing to
like I'll respond to this darkness, but it's not going
to take you. And you see it over and over
(37:09):
and my Jo's brother's name is maybe you.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
No, I'm king Tommy Tony Tony to thank you Tommy.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
You see, Tony and his wife were like, it's boring
that darkness the way like, but we can't keep doing this,
like we have to just set our mission and hold
to it that it's to move like ful, all.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
These bad things happen are happening all the time. I
don't know which one's works.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
Things would neither do nor bad, but thinking makes them so.
It's remains true to see if in the story over
and over that if you march, you lost in your harea,
her will get stuck in a mold.
Speaker 5 (37:43):
It doesn't suit you to do and suit at that moment,
but if you don't recognize the moment has changed you.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
To say stuff, yeah, even just recognizing that we always
can make the choice to move on, like the objective
choice like that as the bull it's not as easy
as like I'm just gonna move on, cause we think
that moving on is I won't have these feelings and
or I won't have this trauma and that's like going
back to the closure I do. But it's insensing like
(38:11):
I can act as if I'm moving on and what
does that look like?
Speaker 1 (38:14):
And you're like, you're saying, like do you not? In
the second season, she's.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Getting all these opportunities to go different around even Jesse.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Yeah, Jesse's like the active parts of the news.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Like we don't have to do this, like you can
just I don't know, do something else. And she's like, no, no, no,
I can't move on from this. And it's a sad
thing to realize, like we all can have the opportunity
to like choose to may getive a choice, choose to
move on and choose to work on why we feel
like we can't.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
So we only have I think a few more minutes.
Any other last points you want to make, any other last.
Speaker 4 (38:53):
Questions, Let's say a short answer, what's your life, Benjamin?
Speaker 1 (39:03):
How dare you?
Speaker 2 (39:03):
I think if I want anyone to come boys from
this is that I don't think there is a writer.
Speaker 5 (39:09):
It's their heads. Did you ever about apples? Is the
people you all? In context? What's your writers? A different class?
Was your right in order context? But think it's one
of those in larger contexts such a complicated Russian less
and such a mean you're.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
In the property. Well, if you enjoyed what you heard today,
Like I said, we have.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
A podcast, Comfort Psychology, you can fight us anywhere Spotify,
Apple Podcasts anywhere. And we've been going on how we're
on our if season or were We just released an
episode on Big Fish, Moonstruck, Thunderbolts like the cover, Like
every genre, we don't just do superhero fakes.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
We don't just do sci fi stuff.
Speaker 5 (39:52):
We do everything.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
And so if you found this interesting and you wanna
learn more, please find us everywhere.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
We're also on Instagram, Facebook, and take tack apop from
Psychology and yeah, if anyone want to set any cancels, however,
pen w the trough or capstack or capstick, especially if
you ask a question you want to reward you.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Alright, thank you everyone for showing us. Maybe
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