Writing Your Reality with Best-Selling Author Allen Eskens

I'm an audiobook aficionado and sometimes I don't know what to listen to. I will scan Audible for hours just trying to decide on a book to listen to. One day I decided to take a chance on an author I had never heard of and knew nothing about. The book is called "The Life We Bury" and I loved it. It enticed me to look into the author, Allen Eskens. A former attorney from Minnesota who went from lawyer to novelist and has been quite successful at taking his knowledge of the law and his love of writing to create a new career. Visit AllenEskens.com for his entire library of books, many of which have reoccurring characters and stories that connect in some really creative and exciting ways.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Threepeat I'm conformist. Oh I promiseto be different. I promise to be
promise, not threepeat things other peoplesay. Welcome to another episode of positive

(00:36):
blatherings, and today's blathering I'm superexcited about because I am a big fan
of this gentleman, Alan Eskins,an author, Saving Emma as his most
recent book, and he's got anotherbook that's in the works. Now we'll
get to that, but mind ifI call you, Alan, please do.
Thank you so much for taking atime to chat with me. I

(00:59):
am, just like I said,I'm over the moon. I I I'm
a big audiobook book person. Iconsume probably an unhealthy amount of audiobooks.
And and I happened upon You're TheLives We Bury. I'm I'm I'm the

(01:23):
Life we Bury, The Life WeBury. I'm a little nervous, so
I'm getting my fast But anyway,I was looking for an audiobook to listen
to and read the brief, youknow, overview and listened to the sample
and I'm like, oh, thatsounds pretty cool. And after I got
through with it, I was like, oh my god, that was amazing.

(01:44):
What other books has this guy done? And then I just started going
one after another after another, andthen started to see how they're all connected
and there's this whole world that you'vecreated. And then I think I tweeted
to you a couple of times saying, Hey, are these being made into
a movie yet, because I wantto see it. You're like, we're
working on that. Yeah, that'swhat you said. You're like, yeah,

(02:04):
I want to see that happening.But you know, I am just
I'm a big fan of authors ingeneral, anyone that can get a completed
book done, because I know,as a as a filmmaker and as a
screenwriter at least I try, it'sso hard to get one thing done,

(02:25):
and especially with what you're doing,with all the research that you have to
do. And I granted you comefrom a law background, if I'm not
mistaken, so you have that.You know, they say write what you
know, and so that's the stuffthat you know, but you know it
really well. I'm just interested togo back on those lines, if if
I may blather, yeah, please, As I was studying writing, I

(02:47):
didn't start studying to be a writeruntil after I was out of law school.
It had never been on my radareven but I wanted to do something
just from my own creativity, justfrom my own fun. And so I
started just writing for my own benefit. And the more I studied writing,
you know, taking classes, themore I wanted to be a literary novelist.

(03:10):
I wanted to tell stories about people. But the fact that I was
a criminal pest attorney, I wouldread books in the mystery thriller genre.
And it's like watching television shows thatare law related. I can't watch them
because they get stuff wrong and itbugs me. And so it was my

(03:31):
desire not to be a mystery writer. But I know that world, and
so I thought, Okay, I'mgoing to write books in that realm where
the law is correct, the courtroomprocedures is correct. But I'm going to
write stories about people, and I'mgoing to use the mystery thriller genre part
of the story to tell as avehicle to tell the stories about these people.

(03:53):
So I always start out with twoplots. One of them is here's
the mystery. The second one ishere's the real story about the people.
So that that's how I came towrite the way I write. Well,
I love it, and and that'syou know, the the A and B
plots are really make the books sointeresting because, like you said, you

(04:14):
have the mystery, but then youhave the personal story. Like my favorite
character of body Sandon and and he'sthe protagonist. And how many of the
books is he the protagonist in?He's the primary protagonist in two, he's
a co protagonist in a third,and he's a secondary character in the Life
we Bury. I see. Ilove, I love how these are all

(04:38):
connected. And it just it You'vecreated this world. That's why I'm just
dying to for this needs to beyou know, on the screen. But
going back to going back to that, you know, when you when you
know something really well and you seepeople getting it wrong, it drives you
nuts. So that's what I loveabout about your story so much, is

(05:02):
that you can tell that it comesfrom a place of knowledge. You know,
it's it's it's a parent. Thisperson knows about the procedures, knows
about the terminology, knows how thingswork. And because it gets kind of
into the nitty gritty but not toomuch. It does not too inside baseball,
but it's it's inside enough that you'relike, Okay, this this is

(05:24):
the real deal. This isn't justsome dime store you know nothing novel,
and and I love that. Butthe characters that you've created, and I've
always wanted to ask you this,do you because in in in Saving Emma,
there's a there's a character named Fitzgerald, and I'm like, hey,
that's me. I know it's notme, but but when when you create

(05:45):
your your characters, are they completelyout of you know, your imagination or
do you base them somewhat on onliving people? Well, your imagination comes
from who you know. And andso when I create a character consciously or
subconsciously, I'm moved and drawing frompeople that I know. There is only

(06:06):
one character that I've written that isactually the characteristics of his character are drawn
from a specific person, and that'sa character named Jeremy, who is autistic.
And because autism is a spectrum,there's all different types of autistic people,

(06:26):
and I want him to be consistentwith who Jeremy was throughout the novel,
and so I, with permission,based Jeremy on somebody I know,
so that would be consistent always.And then the character of Elijah in Saving
Him Up. So Elijah is aman who is in a security hospital.

(06:47):
He is there because he had beenfound not guilty by reason of insanity for
murdering a megachurch pastor. And Elijahbelieves he talks to God. He believes
heself to be a prophet. Elijahwas inspired by a case I had when
I was a young attorney. Iused to take cases at the security hospital
in Saint Peter and I would meeta lot of people there who thought they

(07:13):
talked to God. So that isnot in any way unusual. But what
was unusual about this one client washow intelligent he was and articulate. And
you know, I sat there inhis room talking to him, and he
did not seem at all mentally unstable, except for the fact that he believed
he talked to God. And Imy defense was to the judge, how

(07:36):
do you know he doesn't, Imean, because this judge was a religious
fundamentalist. I said, if youbelieve that that Isaiah and Ezekiel and Ballum
talked to God, how do youknow that my client doesn't. And that
case kind of stuck with me,and so as when I became a writer,
I wanted to write a story aboutthat kind of character. So that's

(07:59):
where Elijah who was born. Idid appreciate the Jeremy character. I have
a son on the spectrum as well, and have quite a few friends with
children on the spectrum. So II enjoyed that inclusivity that you created that
character in that story. And nowit's it's kind of it's cool to to
realize that it's based off that he'sbased off a real person because and and

(08:26):
the character of Joe, which ishis older brother right yes, being his
caregiver, and the whole the familyhistory with that family and stuff. You
know. It was it was verytouching. It was a very touching part
of the story that was unexpected forme because I don't being a father of

(08:50):
a child with autism, I don'tsee that too often, or or it's
it's a rain Man specifically type ofyou know, generally station or stereotype.
So it was, it was,it was very it was very touching for
me anyway personally. Uh, Iwant to thank you for that. I
came upon that idea. So whenI was outlining the life of Barry,

(09:13):
I already had the mystery. Iknew that Joe Talbert was a college student
who was going to go to anursing home for an assignment to interview somebody,
just some random person, and he'sgoing to meet somebody with a dark
secret and get pulled into that secret. So I knew, you know,
I had laid out that part ofthe story already. But I also knew
that Joe was running away from hometo go to college, and I was

(09:35):
struggling with what that meant, whyhe was running away from a what was
he running from? And I wentto go see one of my favorite plays,
The Glass Menagerie, and then TheGlass Menagerie is the story of a
man who has a as a defendantin the in the play, a quippled
sister and he has been her caretakerbecause he's got a dysfunctional mother. And

(09:58):
the play ends with him leaving hissister. And the last monologue is really
powerful and emotional, And whenever Ifeel something emotional, I step back and
reverse engineer and think, what didthis playright do? What did this songwriter
do to make me feel emotion?And how can I use that in my
writing? And I decided, I'mjust going to start my story where this

(10:20):
play leaves off. The story's goingto begin with Joe having already left home.
He left behind his autistic brother whohe's been responsible for his entire life.
He's running away from that responsibility.He wants to live his own life
and so that's where the idea camefrom. Wow, that's really cool.
And now that you touch on it, I was going to ask you about

(10:43):
your process about how you, youknow, start developing a story because that's
always fascinating to me. And youknow, does it start with you driving
in the car and you just likehad an idea and you're like, hey,
that would be kind of cool whenyou expand on that, or is
there a lot more in depth planningto that. It starts with a seed
excuse me? And the seed isthat driving in the car moment. It

(11:07):
can come to you anywhere, andsome seeds they come you think, oh,
that's a good idea for a story, and then they kind of drift
away. Some seeds come and theystick, you know, like a cockle
burr, and you think that's thestory I want to tell. So when
I have a seed come to meof an idea that comes to me,

(11:30):
I think that is a story thatI want to tell, and then it
stays with me. I know that'sa story that I will write. So
my current novel that I'm working onis I was watching a movie. As
watched it's called The Reader, andit's the story of a German woman,
middle aged woman who can't read,and so this young man reads stories to

(11:56):
her and they kind of have alove affair. But then you know a
third halfway into the story there's atwist. And the twist is you find
out that this woman was a femaleguard at a Nazi prison camp, and
it changes everything of how you feelabout this woman. So they built the
first part of the movie making youfeel a certain way about this person,

(12:16):
so you like her, and allof a sudden, now she's she's the
villain. She's the guard of thisNazi prison camp where these women or had
died in this fire. And Iwatched this movie, I have a book
event. I had a library togo to and turned the movie off.
I get in my car and Ithink I would like to write a story
about the woman who has that kindof extraordinary past that she's hiding, and

(12:41):
as driving down the road, thisstory just builds builds of bills. By
time me get back from that event, I had the rough outline for the
novel I'm writing right now. Soyeah, you just you just to be
open to it, and the onesthat stick are the ones that you work
on it. So do you doyou start with with the end first?
Do you say, so you gotthe idea, there's a library and she's

(13:05):
hiding something. Obviously you're not goingto divulge the end of this story because
it still has to come out.But do you do you? Because that's
the problem I always had as awriter, is like I could write really
great what I think are great scenes, you know, sections, and be
like, Oh, that was greatdialogue or that's a really cool thing that
happened, and then I end upgetting to a point and I'm like,

(13:26):
well, where's this going? Now? I have no idea where it's going.
So I've always been interested in inthat part, Like, you know,
when you get to the is therea formula that you use? I
know you said that you took writingclasses and things like that. It's just
really interesting to me that when youget to a point where you don't know
where you're going, how do youget out of that? So before I

(13:48):
sit down to write, I outline, and before I outline, I daydream.
And I think that's really why I'ma writer is I'm a huge daydreamer.
So I'll get the seed of anidea. Let's take saving him up.
There's a guy in a security hospitalwho thinks he's a prophet. Now
I go to the end, andI think, what would be a good

(14:11):
ending for this story, because endingsare very important to me, and the
one I settled on, and Idon't think this is giving too much way,
is leaving it up in the airof whether or not he is a
profit or not, and so it'skind of in the eyes of the reader.
So I work out an ending.I now have a beginning, and
then I sit down and I geta sketchbook. And I love sketch books

(14:35):
for outlining because they're big and whiteand there's no lines on them, so
you don't feel like everything is reallylinear. And I just start daydreaming and
writing down ideas of how I getfrom the beginning to the end of this
story. And you know, ifthe idea doesn't work in the page,
start with a new idea. Iwill write down, you know, three
or four different five minutes sometimes sixseven idea ideas to try and find the

(14:58):
most creative one. I was intheater when I was in high school and
college, and one of the exerciseswe would do is the director would put
a chair in the middle of thestage or any prop, and he'd line
the actors on the side of thestage and say, everybody, go out
there and use that prop in acreative way. Now, if you're the
first person, you go out anduse the chair like it's a desk in

(15:22):
your high school or a park bench. Well, if you're number eleven and
twelve in line, all those ideasare going to be gone by the time
you get there, and you haveto be able to walk on stage and
have something ready, and so you'redigging deep. You know, what is
an idea that nobody else is goingto come up with? And so that's
what I'm doing when I'm using thatlegal pad is I'm running down these ideas
and trying to get to the onethat hasn't been done before, the one

(15:43):
that is creative and strikes me andinterests me. If I get that idea,
I turn the page, write thatidea at the top, and I
build on that. I keep turningthe page, building and building building,
and by the time we get tothe end of that sketch book, I
have plot points for every scene inthe novel a reason why the scene is
there. I know the order ofthe scenes and then so basically I see

(16:07):
the entire novel. I have theroadmap, and now I sit down and
go for a drive, and that'swhen I write the novel. So by
doing that preparation, I never havewriter's block. I know where the story's
going to go. If I cometo a better idea as I'm writing,
I will go back to my outlineand redo the outline with that new idea
so that I'm not wasting twenty thousandwords on a tangent that goes nowhere.

(16:32):
So the outline is very my debut. My very first novel I wrote wasn't
my debut novel, Life for Berry. The first manuscript I wrote was my
sixth novel, Nothing More Dangerous.I worked on that for twenty years as
I was learning how to write.I set it aside, wrote the Life
for Barry, and then I cameback to it and I didn't I never
outlined it in those twenty years,so we went back to rewrite it.

(16:56):
For my sixth novel. I startedby not even looking at the old manuscript.
I outlined it from beginning, andI use my process and wrote it
from beginning to end as if I'dnever written it before, and it turned
out to be a much better bookthan that manuscript that I had. Wow,
I do love that book. That'sinteresting because you actually answered my next
question. I was going to askyou about what was which, which book

(17:21):
was the first book, and ifyour first book was published, because I
know some authors it's their third bookthat they write that actually gets out there.
But in not being real familiar withthe with the world of an author
and publishing. In my in myeyes, you're a successful writer. Do
you consider yourself a successful writer?Oh? Yeah, I mean there's two

(17:45):
ways to look at it. Iwrote for twenty years because I enjoyed it,
never made a dime. I wasa writer then, because there's an
old there's an old quote in Lettersthree Young Poet. The young poet asks
Ernair Maria real Cup, how doI know if I'm a writer? And

(18:07):
Rioka replies, ask yourself, inyour most solemn moments, must I write?
And if you must write, youare a writer. So for that
twenty years, at least from thelast you know, two thirds of it,
I was a writer. My sparetime, I wasn't playing golf.
I was. I was writing becauseI enjoyed it. That was success to
me. I was becoming a betterwriter and a better writer for my own

(18:29):
fun. I also consider myself asuccess because I can make a living at
it. I publish novels, Ihave a fan based people like what I
do, and the people like whatI do. Part of it is that's
the most gratifying thing to have peoplesay you're my favorite writer. I never
thought I would ever be anybody's favoritewriter, but to be on anybody's shortlist

(18:56):
is a huge honor, given thefact that I'm telling stories that just make
me happy to tell stories. SoI do consider myself a successful writer just
because I enjoy it and I'm ableto bring happiness to other people. What
was What was it like the verythe very first time that your your work

(19:18):
was professionally accepted, you know inthe publishing world, or when when you
finally got the first deal or whateverit is, where it was like,
I've made it, this is it? What was that like? I was
rejected for by one hundred and fiftyagents before I got an agent, and

(19:41):
getting an agent was a huge stepfor me. Once got an agent,
I had someone on my team tosay, okay, here's where I think
your story needs to be, youknow, fixed and work better. By
the time we sent them to apublisher you know, who was ready to
go. We had two offers ofpublication within a few weeks. And at
that point it was like all thiswork that I've been doing, which was

(20:04):
fun, but you sit there andthink, would it be cool if I
could be a published author. It'skind of a bucket listing, and then
I see it happen. It's likeI did that, I wanted to do
it again, and so you justyou find yourself wanting to repeat the process
just because the fun of it.I don't right for any reason other than

(20:30):
I enjoy it. It really issomething that I enjoyed doing. So if
I ever stopped enjoying it, Idon't think I would keep writing. But
I have so many ideas in myhead yet to be written, I can't
keep up. Actually, that's asa fan has someone who appreciates your work,
that's great. I know there's lotsmore on the way. I'm constantly

(20:55):
looking forward to, you know,whatever your posts are about what's happening.
By the way, way you haveto get get out to Rochester, New
York. I would love to maybemaybe we'll put together some sort of an
event for you. There's a there'sa really great community arts community here in
Rochester, and I've been I've beensinging your praises to a lot of people.

(21:18):
You know, you see people onFacebook. I need a new audio,
new audiobook to listen to, ora new book to read. I'm
always like, try this one,try this one, try this one.
But you know, the the ideathat that you do it because you love
it, and that's a that's akey factor in success, I believe.

(21:40):
And like you said, I ifit became became something that you didn't want
to do, it was a drudgery. If it was like I got to
get up and write today, thenit's like, now you got to find
something else to do. And howlong were you in law? I had
ad as luxury because I was apracticing attorney. I had an income,

(22:00):
my had a career, and soI took it slowly. I and you
know, I take a class hereor there, and I take one or
two classes a year, and Iwould read books on writing. I did
a I was I was the rebsyRight visiting author at Minister of State University
this past month. And one ofthe things that you're talking to the MFA

(22:25):
students that I got this feeling wasthat the result of this pressure for them
to get out of the MFA programand write the great American novel NBA success
right out of the shoot. Andwhat I tried to impart to them was,
don't let that pressure push you totry and publish something when it's not

(22:47):
ready. Take your time, evenif it means having a second job while
you're writing. If you truly lovewriting, eventually it will happen. You
will keep writing until you've written astory that is so good that the publishers
have to accept it and say,yeah, we want to publish this.
And then once you have your footin the door, you have, like
I said, a team. Youhave the agent, the editors, and

(23:08):
you can say here's my other stuff, and you know, and they can
help you whip that into shape sothat that is now going to be on
bookstore bookstoreselves as well. So Ididn't have that pressure, and that was
really nice. I could just takemy time and do it because I enjoyed
it. And my advice to youyoung authors is don't be in too much

(23:30):
of a hurry. Make sure thatthe what you put out there is your
your very best before you start tryingto get it published. That's great advice.
And so being in being an attorney, a practicing attorney, I've always
wondered, did that job ever justget to be like being surrounded by maybe

(23:55):
criminals or negativity or just the badelements of life of humankind? And did
that ever get to you? Andif it did, how did you turn
yourself around in that situation. Yes, as a criminal defense attorney, uh,
you don't always enjoy your clients.But I go back to the creative

(24:18):
aspect of it. I was aprosecutor for a while and I enjoyed it,
but it was not creative. Asa prosecutor, the police bring you
the case, they say we've donethe investigation. Here it is, and
you look at it and say,okay, I can present this to a
jury and win. Then let's goAs a defense attorney. You get that
same case and you have to figureout where have they made the mistakes,
what's the what's the way I canpresent this so that my client has a

(24:42):
shot of not going to jailer prison, and there that that creative side always
kind of kept me going. Soeven if I didn't like my clients,
I looked at the case and thefacts and the elements and and looked at
that as the challenge, you know, how do I do this? And
being a career attorney was what Iloved most about the job. I have

(25:06):
some cases out there where I wasat a conference once and the speaker at
the conference was talking about new casesthat went before the Supreme Court and one
of them was mine, and hedidn't know me, so he didn't know
that I was in the audience,and he said, and here's one and
he talks about this crazy fact patternand this attorney did this and this,
and the Supreme Court agreed with them. And I'm like, yeah, that

(25:29):
that's me. So it was alwaysthe challenge of the case more than the
clients. But at the same time, I did have clients that I loved
and respected and liked, and Ihad innocent clients that I really fought for.
And another thing as a prosecutor isyou don't want to see the defendant

(25:49):
as a person. You want tosee them as a case. This person,
this case is about you know,Stage v. Smith. I don't
care who Smith is. All Icare about is can I prove Smith the
crime. As a defense attorney,you meet the person you know about their
family. You meet their mothers,you meet their wives, you meet their
kids sometimes, and you see themvery differently. So when I write bad

(26:11):
people or villains and antagonists in mystories, I know that they have a
broader life. I always give myvillains a backstory that explains to me at
least why they think they are thehero of their own story. And so
even if it even if like Gavinin The Stolen Hours, is a truly

(26:36):
reprehensible person, but he doesn't thinkso. He sees himself in a light
where he is getting back at peoplewho are being mean to him, and
he thinks it's okay he's doing whathe's doing. So I always always make
sure that there is that rounding ofthe bad guy. When I wanted to

(26:56):
touch a little bit on your onyour life, your family life growing up.
Do you come from a family ofauthors or creatives or are you the
first one in the family to bethis way? I am the black sheep.
If you've read nothing more dangerous,that is kind of my backstory.

(27:21):
I grew up on a dead endgravel Road outside of Jefferson City, Missouri,
and the son of a drywaller.So my dad owned a drywall company
and I grew up in drywall.I was docking sea rock and scraping out
houses for my earliest memories, andmy whole family has been construction oriented for

(27:41):
the most part. It was gettingin the theater in high school that kind
of started breaking me out of thatmold, and I started seeing how much
fun the creative side of me couldbe. And it was my love for
theater that made me want to goto college. I just wanted a reason
to do theater for a little whilelonger before I trapped on the tool belt

(28:02):
and went to hang cheat rock.And once I got into college, I
didn't want to go back. SoI needed to get serious and find a
career that could that could, youknow, keep me behind a desk rather
than you know, cutting my handsup with a utility. And I've cutting
cheat rock. So I became alawyer. Never was my dream to be

(28:23):
a lawyer, but it was onceagain into college, it was like,
I'm not as stupid as I thoughtI was. I wondered if I could
go to law school, and itwas kind of just I wanted to challenge
myself. I wanted to see ifI could do it. And I did
it and became a lawyer, andthen I, you know, all this
theater stuff was still inside me,and I just wanted to have an outlet

(28:44):
for that creativity. And now I'man author. That's that's a great story.
I come from the same, asimilar background. My my father was
a general contractor. Both my brothersor contractors, and they specifically wanted to
keep me out of the business.They're like, no, you're not going
into this god forsaken business. You'regonna do something with yourself. And then
I got into like video and audioproduction, which and radios so and then

(29:08):
I have to hire someone to fixmy house because I never taught. I
never learned all the right ways todo things. So I know enough to
get myself into trouble now. Iremodeled my house back in two thousand,
I want to say two thousand andfour maybe, and I did so much.
I did I framed about a thirdof it. I did all the

(29:30):
drywall, I did the painting,I did the installation, I did the
woodwork. I will never do thatagain. That was my last. That
was my last dip in the constructionworld. I did a good job,
but man it was hard and Iwas really out of shape, and yeah,
I want to make sure I'm notcoming acrof disrespectful for drywallers. My

(29:51):
family is still drugs and roofers.And you know, having that skill,
that that trade gave me gave methe courage to take chances, because in
the back of my mind, Ikept saying, well, I can always
go back and hang cheat rock.I know how to do that. If
this fails, I can go hangcheat rock. I know how to do

(30:12):
that. And so having that thattrade and that understanding of of you know,
how to hang sheet rock and dodrywall was incredibly you know, fortifying
in my journey. Yeah, II kind of I was actually upset with
with my family for pushing me awaybecause it's it is a useful knowledge,

(30:34):
bit, it is something you know, useful skills to know this wall behind
me. I framed it out anddid it myself. And if you went
back and and measured the studs,you'd be like, what were you doing?
What what did you use? Youknow? Was it? It was?
It was scary, it's up there, it's not coming down. But

(30:55):
yeah, that that and and theidea of of trades. And I know
i'm a I'm a wow, I'mblanking on his name. Who's the dirty
jobs guy? Oh? Yeah,Mike you know, yeah Microrow. Yeah,
we picked that up. So I'ma big fan of Mike Row.

(31:18):
And he's he's got that that wholeidea of you you don't have to go
to college, you don't have togo to university, but you should learn
a trade. And you know peoplegoing to trade schools. It's it's it's
a heck of a life. Sometimesit's hard, but it's a great knowledge
and a useful tool. And youcan make a lot of money too,

(31:41):
well, you can. Yeah,you know, my family they're all successful
in the in the trades. AndI was lucky that my father owned a
drug wall company, so that asI grew up, I learned every aspect
of that world. And you know, I see kids now that you know,
they grew up in in cities andthey're they're the they're in families that

(32:02):
don't have that opportunity. And itwould be scary as heck to me to
go to a trade school and tryand learn all that I had learned,
you know, growing up in thatworld, because there's just so much to
it and you and you take itin a little bit at time. You
know, a little bit here,a little bit there, and here's how
you use a plumb bob, here'show you yeah, you sweat a pipe

(32:24):
when you're doing plumbing, here's howyou do. And to try and pick
that stuff up all within. Youknow, a couple of years at a
trade school would be daunting, butit is. It is, like you
said, well worth it. Sohow is your your family, your current
family in dealing with your your successand your writing and and your and your

(32:47):
system. They pretty much ignore me. I'm sure they're I'm sure they're proud
of me. Uh they And theydo tell me they're they're proud of me.
But we don't like when we gettogether for Thanksgiving, we don't sit
around talk about my books or anything. I'm just alan who you know,
what was the idiot brother and theone they called stumble bum growing up?

(33:08):
And we talk we talk about otherthings. Usually that's interesting, that's really
interesting. But I mean, Iguess you know, when it's when you're
your family, it's your family.It doesn't matter how successful, like my
brother's incredibly successful in Florida, inSouth Florida as a general contractor. But

(33:30):
you know, it's not like wesit around and talk about how much money
he made last year. So whatI know, you have a new novel
that's on the way that you youtouched on. What else is? What
else is on the horizon for you? Creatively speaking? That's a good question.
So I'm currently doing edits on mytenth novel. And by the way,

(33:53):
this tenth novel is my first onethat isn't connected to this community of
character that I created. It wasthis this story that came from that movie
The Reader. Wow. It's thestory of a middle aged forty seven year
old librarian, a woman who justblends into the background. She always wears

(34:16):
a cardigan sweater. They call herthe Sweater Lady. And what no one
knows about her is that she hasthis extraordinary past. She came of age
at seventeen fighting in Bosnia, andthe circumstances of how she became a fighter

(34:37):
and how she had to flee Bosniacome out during the story. And the
story begins basically when her past fromthirty years ago has come to find her
and she has to go back andfind that person she was when she was
seventeen. So, and we justthis week settled on a title that A

(35:00):
very happy with. It's called TheQuiet Librarian, and so that'll be coming
out February of next year. Wedon't have a specific day yet, but
they're thinking February of next year.After that, I've got a couple of
different story ideas. But I've alsogot some screenplace I want to work on.
That's what I'm talking about. Yeah, I got a comedy that I've

(35:22):
been I started. I've been thinkingabout this comedy for a couple of years,
and I tend to think and dwellon things for months, if not
years, before I sit down toactually write them, because I want to
make sure that the idea, likethe couckle Berr it sticks with me,
that it's a good one. Yeah, And so I outlined it between I
was doing a book tour in Septemberand October, and I would just as

(35:45):
I'm driving from one place to another, I'm just daydreaming the plot and taking
notes on my phone as I'm driving. I started writing in December. I
got seventy five pages written. SoI just turned in and edit last night
to my editor. So I getto pull out my my, my screenplay
and work on that some more andhopefully by the end of the month have

(36:07):
first draft done. I've got anotheridea for a limited series that I'm one
of the writers at in the MFAprogram. One of the professors is going
to sit down with me tomorrow.We're going to start just you know,
brainstorming this idea to see if wecan build it into a you know,

(36:28):
limited series and you know, doa pilot episode. So I have too
many ideas and not enough time.So I don't know if the screenplays will
ever go anywhere. But I wrotefor twenty years on you know, fiction
without the idea that it was evergoing to go anywhere. I do it

(36:52):
just because I enjoy it. Soif it doesn't go anywhere, fine,
I'm going to enjoy the process.If it does go somewhere, how cool
would that be? So but Ifind them really enjoying the screenwriting process.
Now, what kind of stuff toyou right in the stream playwriting? So
I've written some short films and mybusiness partner and I just two years ago,

(37:19):
two years ago, produced a movie, a comedy called Bottom Feeders,
which actually you can see on AmazonPrime. It's a college comedy. It
is what it is. But itwas one of those things where we wanted
to make sure that we shot,that we actually produced our own movie before
we got too old and too angrythat we didn't get a chance to do
it. So it was self funded. We did it ourselves, cast it

(37:43):
completely, almost entirely in Rochester,New York, shot it in Rochester,
New York, and it was agreat experience. And I've never been able
to get past a short screenplay fifteenpages, twenty pages. And I say
I never because honestly, I've nevertried like you as a writer. From

(38:07):
what you've told me today. Youput in the work like and you enjoy
the work, but you put inthe work. You have a process that
works for you, and you stickat it. And I definitely have not
been diligent in the way of stickingto it and saying today I'm gonna I'm
my writing time is from this timeto this time, and I'm going to

(38:29):
write, you know, And Iknow that a lot of writers that I've
spoken to say that they have officehours, they have times where this is
when I'm writing. And I've nevergotten around to doing that, and I
think that's kind of the main reasonwhy I haven't really completed anything. That
routine really does help in the beginning. It's more just like forcing yourself to

(38:51):
sit down and work on the project. After you get into the routine,
it'll be like losing a lamb.You'll still feel it there don't if you
don't sit down to write during thatwriting time, you feel something's wrong.
It's like I should be doing something. What is it? Oh, yeah,
this is my writing time, soand your and your brain starts to

(39:13):
gear up for that. So mywriting time is normally right now because but
I just turned in and ed it. So I'm kind of taking today off.
But I finished my breakfast and Ihave my cup of coffee, and
then I go downstairs and I writefor an hour or two. Then I
go do a workout, do arun. And the workout of the run

(39:35):
is an important part of my process, and that I do something that's a
divided attention task, you know,go wreak the lawn, go walk the
dogs. But something where my brainisn't staring at a page or at a
computer screen saying what comes next?What do I do now? And in
the back of my mind, what'sfloating around is, Okay, here's what
I've worked on this morning for thetwo hours. Here's what I'm going to

(39:57):
work on. How can I makethat better? And by the time get
back from my workout, I haveall these ideas that will improve that day's
work, that day's process. Soyeah, getting into that that that rhythm
really does help. And also doyou outline? I tried, But here's

(40:21):
the thing, So this, thisis what I'm curious about when you're when
you're outlining, is it you startwith a beginning and an end and then
you try to fill in the blanksor do you go in a chronological sort
of beginning and end? Then Ifill in the blanks, and as I'm
filling in the blanks, I'm eitherbeing chronological. It depends on the story

(40:43):
or for example, the story I'mthe Quiet Librarian, it takes place in
two time periods. One time periodis nineteen ninety five Bosnia at the time
period is the present, and Iwill focus on the Bosnia first, outline
that completely because I want to know, you know, I want to know

(41:05):
how this character came to be whoshe is. Then I can go to
the present, knowing who she isin each of these stages, and I
outline the present in a way thatkind of matches up to what's happening in
the past. So, you know, in the past, there's a scene
where she gets she gets a haircutcut, and that haircut kind of transforms
her in terms of how she seesherself. And in the present the next

(41:29):
chapter she goes, she goes andgets a haircut because she's going to try
and do something she hasn't done inthirty years and she wants to. And
so there's that matching up. SoI will do out So I'll do one
time period in another, or Iwill do like in the Life for Barria,
do the mystery plot line, andthen I did the brother story and
then wove them together. But Iyou know, in my head, I'm

(41:53):
always kind of aware of chronologically whateach of these different parts of novel are
doing. But yeah, start frombeginning to go to end knowing that here's
what the climax of the story isgoing to be, here's what the big
reveal is going to be, Here'show the book ends, and then I
just have fun daydreaming that middle part. You know, when I when I'm

(42:15):
not sitting down with my sketchbook writingmy outline, I'm thinking about it.
It's in the back of my head. You know. That may be a
fault of mine is that I can'tput it aside ever, So I just
I just keep kind of percolating inand thinking about it and like, oh,

(42:35):
I could do that, then Icould go right down that idea.
That's interesting. We were I wasjust speaking with writer's block and just what
I was calling the creative doldrums,which just there's nothing going on and there's
nothing happening, and I don't knowwhat to do. And a couple of
my friends mentioned, you know,take a break, go and do something
else. Go. I started playingguitar again. I haven't play guitar in

(43:00):
twenty five years, and I'm like, all right, I'll start playing guitar
again, take the dog for awalk, or or start something else for
a period of time, and justcompletely push that project off and just say
I'm not going to work on thatfor a day or a week or whatever,
and then at some point it'll clickand you come back into it and
jump in. You find that thathappens with you with your process. Everyone

(43:22):
I know you say you don't liketo take a break or you don't stop
it, but whatever happens, it'sthat divided attention. Yeah, I think
there's actually been studies on this thatif you are sitting there and focusing and
trying to come up with an idea, it will not come to you as
easily as if you go do somethingelse and have that question in the back

(43:43):
of your mind, and so you'renot focusing on that question, You're focusing
on raking the leaves or you know, going for your run, and then
in the back of mind that it'sbouncing there and all of a sudden things
start to move a little bit.I also when I'm watching movie or plays
or reading books, I'm always thinking, how can I use what I'm seeing

(44:07):
here to make my stories better?You know, and trying to improve my
own stories. I will, youknow, I will see a TikTok video.
You know, I'm I'm talking aboutthis friend of mine, this the
writer we're going to try and writea limited series. In the back of
my head, I know that that'swe're going to sit down and start reinstorming

(44:28):
that, and I see a TikTokvideo, just a clip it's like,
you know, ten seconds long,but it's a clip from a movie and
this actor pulls me in, andI think I want to have a character
like that. Now, what kindof character would I write to try and
pull people in that way? Andit wasn't you know, when I first
sat down with the idea for thefor the story, this character didn't exist.

(44:52):
There was nowhere on the radar.I saw that and thought, I
love that idea. How can Iput this into the story? And now
you know that is one of thedriving forces behind you know, what I
want to do with this story isthat character, because that character is just
so interests me so a lot oftimes, it's just being open. It's
being open to what's around you andunderstanding paying attention to everything in terms of

(45:17):
how can that make my process better, my story better. When I was
a lawyer, I was writing onthe side, but my mind was always
about the next oral argument, thenext cross examination, the next case,
and so I wasn't open to beingcreative. Things were happening around me that

(45:37):
would have been wonderful to know asa writer, but I would ignore it
because I had other things in myhead. As a writer, I'm constantly
open to everything around me. Isin terms of inspiring me to write a
better story. I was interested inSo the Quiet Librarian, do you have

(45:58):
a connection with Bosnia personally? Ido not. I have so in the
guise of another my second novel,I have a character named the Regio Basta,
who is from that coast of ifI recall. And so when I
was creating that character, I didsome research on the war in Yugoslavia the

(46:20):
Baltimore and that particular part was theAlbanian coastovoan aspect of But that war is
so convoluted and so you know,difficult for as Americans to understanding because there
are so many different entities fighting witheach other. You know, there were
there were countries with borders, orthey weren't actually countries, they were part

(46:43):
of Yugoslavia, but they then brokeoff said we are now a country.
And so now you have geographical bordersthat are fighting, you have ethnicities that
are fighting. You have you know, Christians versus Muslims. You got Croats
versus Serbs, and the crow atthe Croats would switch sides every now and
again, and uh so I startedreally I started learning. I learned about

(47:05):
the area that were a little bitfor that novel. And then when I
was daydreaming the idea for this quietlibrarian, I needed a catalyst. I
needed something to happen in her lifewhen she was a teenager. And there
were only two wars that fit thebill. One was in Africa and I
knew nothing about it. The otherone was the Baltimore and I said,
okay, I know a little bitabout that. Let's delve into that.

(47:28):
And that's what drew me to Bosnia. Do you have any any one particular
section of history that interest you morethan others. I'm kind of a religious
hobbyist. The whole first, second, and third century I find fascinating up

(47:52):
until THEO and I see in Council. There's something about that era that just
fascinates me in terms of of howimportant it is to how the world is
today. And so yeah, II have delved into to that and World

(48:15):
War two also. I mean Ihave a story idea for a historical fiction
set with World War Two as abackdrop. I will write that someday.
I don't know when, but oh, that interests me as well. That's
my jam right there. World WarTwo. That's yeah, oh yeah,

(48:36):
that's what I can't get enough.I can't get enough of that. I
can't get enough personal stories from theHolocaust, and just it fascinates me to
no end of what people had toendure, what the entire world was going
through, how it changed and shapedour world as it is now. Est

(49:00):
thing about the hit, the theearly Christian time, because it's true.
I never really thought about it,but that what a what a molding time
that was for for our our worldin general. Yeah, that's interesting.
So I really do appreciate you takingtime. I know you said you had

(49:22):
your day off so that normally you'dbe writing now, but you I found
a good slot. You did.What you've kind of you kind of stole
my thunder for a couple of myquestions. You answered him before I asked
them. But I would say,you know, if there's if there's somebody
who, let's just say, someonelike me or or a younger person who

(49:45):
is aspiring to be a writer,a filmmaker, creative of some kind,
what would be the most the youknow, key advice that you could give
them. For me, The keyto both enjoying writing and I think becoming

(50:06):
a successful writer was understanding the craft. And when I say the craft,
what I mean is think of thematrix that you're at the beginning of the
matrix. Neo is going through hislife and things are happening around him,
but in truth, there's a depththat he doesn't understand. And I want

(50:29):
my readers to live in that kindof world. I want to be able
to make them feel emotion. Iwant to make them feel tension. I
want them to feel joy at times, and there is a craft to doing
that. There is understanding how tostructure a story and a paragraph and a

(50:51):
chapter in a way that brings tearsto someone's eyes is not easy. Yeah,
Robert McKee says that a screenplay isa good story well told. Everybody
has a good story to tell,it's the well told part. Understanding profluence.

(51:14):
Profluence is a term made up byJohn Gardner. It's the idea that
as you're writing, you're putting questionsin the reader's mind. You're putting suspicions
and expectations in the reader's mind,and then you are suspending answering those questions
subconsciously. What that does is thereader. Humans do not like to have

(51:37):
questions go unanswered and so it createsin them this dissonance, this psychological distonance.
Would they think, if I turnthe page, this will be answered
and I will no longer have thisdissonance in me and I can relax.
They turn the page and I havegiven them another question now and I hold

(51:57):
off as unders they can. Sothat's part of the craft understanding how tension
is the gap between hope and fear. That the wider those two things are
apart, the greater the tension willbe. Imagine you're in the doctor's waiting
room and you're about to find outif your child has cancer. The hope

(52:17):
and the fear in that moment areextremely far apart, and the tension is
very very strong. If you're sittingthere way and find out if your child
has tonsilitis, you're not going tohave the same level of tension. So
there are all these aspects of craftthat when you understand them, it's almost

(52:39):
like a mathematical formula. You knowhow to create tension, Create a relatable
character, put that character in asituation where the outcome is uncertain, and
the outcome and they're facing very clearthreat, that equation will create tension.

(53:04):
So early on in my writing.I read how in John Gardner again,
he said that either you have talentas a writer or you do not,
and you should kind of figure itout one way or the other and either
write or get out out of thisworld. And I read that and I
was a little pissed off because Icome to this thinking I have no talent

(53:30):
for writing. I don't really enjoyreading. I think I have ADHD years
on because I've never I've always struggledwith reading. And so I'm thinking,
we'll screw you, John Gardner.What I'm going to do is I'm going
to understand this at an elemental levelso that I understand the craft well enough
that people will think that I havetalent. And so that was my focus.

(53:50):
I wanted to understand that craft level. And the more I learned about
it, the more I understood it, the more fascinating it was, and
the more enjoyable it was to write. And you know, I was reading
a final chapter of my new storyand I wrote it right, And I
wrote this chapter and I rewrote itand I wrote rewrote it, but I

(54:13):
hadn't read it for you know,about a month. So I'm rereading it
and I'm starting to tear up,and I know what's going to happen.
I wrote it anything, and I'mstarting to cheer up, and I'm thinking,
Okay, you know you did agood job with the craft, because
you know, like it or not, you know, you know I'm going
to feel that emotion where the RedFriend grows. That was the first book

(54:34):
I ever read twice, and Iread it the second time because I wanted
to prove to myself I could readit without bawling. I could not.
And I'm sitting I'm getting to thepoint that I was going to cry,
and I think, Okay, it'sjust words on paper. This isn't real,
These aren't real people. It's justa story. And no, the
tears are falling. And you knowthat author did something within the pages,

(54:59):
within those words that made me feelemotion. And that's what I wanted to
do when I decided to become awriter. I like, I like how
you put that. And and Iwill say that you're downplaying your talent because
you're kind of You're kind of youknow, saying, oh, well,
I just I figured out the codeand I broke the code and now I

(55:19):
can just create these and it's likeyou know, like it's a mathematical thing,
which to some extent I guess that'strue, but you still you have
to understand understanding the math of it. But then the more you do it,
the more it becomes innate, youknow, it becomes more instinctual.
And you do it not because you'rethinking A plus B eqal see. You're

(55:44):
doing because I'm a writer and thisis what I do and this is you
know, it's hanging she Rock.You know when you when I first started
hanging sheat Rock, every movement wasI had to think it through. Okay,
this, you know, I haveto measure it this way and cut
it this way. After doing itfor a year or two, it's like
you're not thinking. You're listening toPaul Harvey or you're listening to the you

(56:06):
know, the Eagles on the radioand you're just whipping through and you're not
thinking about it because you know whatyou're doing. So it's getting to that
point of you know, you don'thave to think about it anymore. It's
innate. You know what you're doing, and maybe that is what passes this
talent. It's like brain muscle memory. Yeah, very much, so,

(56:29):
very much so interesting crap. Iwas just going to ask you something.
Nick got me off. Satured,Oh, so this is something that I've
always kind of wondered about. AndI've seen authors and screenplay, you know,
writers and different people say that whenthey're in the middle of the story,

(56:52):
and sometimes it's just like it writesthemselves, like the characters are just
doing this and you're there witnessing it. Does that ever happen to you?
Only in dialogue as I'm writing,because I have been daydreaming this thing and
outlining it, and I have,you know, bullet points, and before
I sit down to write a chapter, I outline the chapter. It's very

(57:15):
hard for my characters to take control. But when I'm doing dialogue, I'm
hearing the conversation in my head andI'm just typing as fast as I can
to keep up with that conversation.And sometimes by the end of the conversation
it has gone someplace I wasn't expecting, because you know, X says this,
why says that? And they goback and forth and they feed off
of what each other says. Thatit's not just you know, this is

(57:37):
the dialogue, because this is whathas to happen in the chapter. They
actually feed off each other, andpretty soon it's like, Okay, that's
not where I was planning to go. When that happens, I sit back
and think, Okay, is thata better place that I you know,
is that better than my outline?And if it is, I'll go back
and, like I said, reoutlineto make sure that I haven't screwed something

(57:57):
up. Because sometimes you'll go downon tan and you think this is a
great tangent and you get to theend and it's not an you think,
but I wrote twenty thousand words.I don't want to give this up.
You know. I need to figureout some way to wedge this into the
story. And now you're doing whatyou shouldn't do. That's exactly what I
do. That's that's like spot onexactly what I do. I wrote this,

(58:22):
Yeah, you need to allied,all right? So if I've learned
anything in this conversation is I needto outline? So what's the what would
you like people to co find rightnow? If they're there watching and listening
to this, what should they gocheck out? Well, your website you
have if you've read my books before, then Saving Emma is my most recent

(58:45):
book that came out last September.That would be what I recommend if you've
never read any of my work,I would start with either Nothing More Dangerous,
which is a prequel. It's Bodysand so Body Sandon is a law
professor in Saving Emma, he's atlate fifties law professor. Nothing More Dangerous

(59:07):
is him when he was fifteen yearsold in nineteen seventy six. So it's
a prequel, but it's also verymuch a standalone. Or you could read
The Life for Berry. The Lifefor Berry has all four of my major
characters in it. Joe Talbert isthe main protagonist, but the others played
minor roles, and it introduces excuseme, it introduces you to these four

(59:31):
people who I've written about for ninebooks. Now, yeah, that's the
one that I started with. Andthen I remember, I can't remember which
Shadows We Hide that sat As WeHide is the next Joe Talbert book.
Yeah, three books for Max Rupertin between there the Guys of Another,

(59:52):
The Heavens May Fall, and TheDeeper Descending. Then I did The Shadows
We Hide, which is the sequelto the Life for Barry. Then and
I did Nothing More Dangerous, whichis it took me twenty seven years to
write. That's amazing. That's amazing. But you know, I I think
I went to your I think Igoogled Alan Eskins books and order like which

(01:00:14):
which how should I how should Iread them or listen to them on my
website? That it took me toyour website. That is the best place
to find that. Yeah, becausethere's actually a Wikipedia page out there for
me, Alan Eskin's Wikipedia that hasit wrong. Oh really, Yeah,
they have the satur we hide asa Max Srupert novel, Max Srupert.

(01:00:37):
It isn't even mentioned in the novel. So yeah, I used to be
a big fan of Wikipedia, butI'm concerned now. Well when when you
you know, it's open to thegeneral public to write stuff, so it's
got to take it with a grainof salt. I think, yeah,
I read somewhere that because on thesubject, I'm not allowed to write stuff.

(01:00:58):
I don't know if that's true ornot. I wouldn't know how to
even if I could, but youknow I would. I would. There's
a few things I would change onthere that are that are incorrect. But
hey, I got a Wikipedia page. Oh really, you're not allowed to
change that. I read that somewhereand I used that as an excuse for
not trying to change anything. Idon't have to go through the exercise of

(01:01:19):
learning how to do that. Rightif anybody watching this wants to fix my
Wikipedia page. I don't have anMFA degree from Minnister City University. I
honed my skills there, but Inever got the degree. I just took
the classes that I wanted to take. Well, I I so very much
appreciate you taking the time I was. I was ecstatic when I just sort

(01:01:45):
of reached out kind of, youknow, on a whim. I was
like, hey, let's see ifwe'll do the podcast, like this guy's
not gonna see he's not even gonnarespond, and you did and you said,
I'm I'm happy to do it.So that was that was really cool.
It made my day and I knowthat I have I have some people

(01:02:05):
who really listen to the podcast todiscover new authors and stuff like that.
So hopefully we'll get you some morefans because your work is great. Is
there going to be another book inthat world or are you done with that
world? I'm not done with it, but I haven't found that Cockleber idea

(01:02:30):
a couple. I have a coupleof characters like Nicki Vang, who has
been a secondary character in three novels. Now I would like to do a
book with her as a protagonist.But I haven't you know. Nothing's jumped
out of me in terms of thisis the vehicle to tell Nicki's story,
But that might be the next bookI write in this world. I also

(01:02:52):
have a rough idea for another bookfor Joe Talbert, but I haven't you
know, it hasn't really grabbed meyet. I have a few other things
to do first, and when oneof those stories grays me, I will
absolutely write another book. Well,we're looking forward to it. I speak
for everyone. I wish you thebest of luck. I hope that your

(01:03:16):
next book is as successful as youwant it to be, and that your
screenwriting endeavors and all the stuff thatyou're working on turns out to be exactly
how you want it to be.You have influenced me in a lot of
different ways, just in an artisticand creative way, and I appreciate the

(01:03:37):
work that you've done and I lookforward to many more years of your work.
Thank you, and I wish youthe same. I wish you success
on your journey and I help youfind fulfillment one way or the others.