This Postmodern Realities episode is a conversation with JOURNAL author Louis Markos about his article, “George Herbert’s Devotional Poetry: An Apologist’s Guide to God’s Call, Prayer, and Gospel Transformation:" https://www.equip.org/articles/george-herberts-devotional-poetry-an-apologists-guide-to-gods-call-prayer-and-gospel-transformation/
Related articles and podcasts by this author:Hank Unplugged:How to Explain Hell with Louis MarkosHow Dante’s Inferno Can Help Explain Hell to Modern Seekers (article)Atheism on Trial with Dr. Louis MarkosPostmodern Realities podcastsEpisode 429: How Greek Myth, Tragedy, And Philosophy Point to Christian TruthHow Greek Myth, Tragedy, And Philosophy Point to Christian TruthEpisode 332 Exhortations to College-bound StudentsSeven or So Exhortations to College-Bound Students
Don’t miss an episode; please subscribe to the Postmodern Realities podcast wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Please help spread the word about Postmodern Realities by giving us a rating and review when you subscribe to the podcast. The more ratings and reviews we have, the more new listeners can discover our content.
Related articles and podcasts by this author:Hank Unplugged:How to Explain Hell with Louis MarkosHow Dante’s Inferno Can Help Explain Hell to Modern Seekers (article)Atheism on Trial with Dr. Louis MarkosPostmodern Realities podcastsEpisode 429: How Greek Myth, Tragedy, And Philosophy Point to Christian TruthHow Greek Myth, Tragedy, And Philosophy Point to Christian TruthEpisode 332 Exhortations to College-bound StudentsSeven or So Exhortations to College-Bound Students
Don’t miss an episode; please subscribe to the Postmodern Realities podcast wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Please help spread the word about Postmodern Realities by giving us a rating and review when you subscribe to the podcast. The more ratings and reviews we have, the more new listeners can discover our content.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:20):
Hi everyone, Thank you for tuning in to the Postmodern
Realities podcast, brought to you by the Christian Research Institute
and the Christian Research Journal. I'm Melanie Cogdill, Managing editor
of the Christian Research Journal. It's June twenty twenty five,
and this is episode four hundred and forty nine, which
is a conversation about the poetry of George Herbert. On
(00:45):
this episode, I'm joined by doctor Lewis Marcos, who is
Professor in English and a scholar in residence at Houston
Christian University. He holds the Robert H. Ray Sharon Humanities
and his twenty five books, including his newest book, just
published in April, which is called Passing the Torch, An
Apology for Classical Christian Education. Lou has written an online
(01:09):
feature article for the Christian Research Journal. His article is
called George Herbert's Devotional Poetry, An Apologist's Guide to God's Call,
prayer and Gospel Transformation. You can read this article for
free at a quick dot org. That's equip dot org. Lou,
it's great to have you on the podcast again.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
It is great to be back again, Melanie.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Well, our listeners might be interested in today's conversation and
might not know very much about the person's work who
we're talking about, and that is a seventeenth century Anglican
minister whose name is George Herbert. So why should modern
Christians even care about this person? And how would you
(01:55):
say he relates to apologetics and evangelism.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, I'll tell you. Let me begin by saying C. S.
Lewis the greatest apologist of the twentieth century. Near the
end of his life, a magazine called Christian Century, which
is still around, asked him to give them a list
of the top ten books that influenced him, not just
intellectually but in terms of his calling and his ministry. Interestingly,
(02:20):
and Lewis on that top ten list did not include
Paradise Lost or Pilgrim's Progress, but he included another seventeenth
century writer named George Herbert, who wrote his collection of
poems called The Temple. And these poems are really devotional poems.
They're not big, sweeping epics like Paradise Lost. They're not
(02:42):
this giant epic allegory of the Christian life that's Pilgrim's Progress.
They're very narrowly focused, short lyrical poems about living the
devotional life, about the life of the Church, about aspects
of the Bible, about aspects of the Temple itself and
of the sacraments and whatnot. And they're very simple poems,
(03:06):
but they are. It's kind of amazing. They're all very
much personal poems. But they're not purely subjective. They're not
just oh, look at me, look at me, look at me.
They are a Christian everyman who's wrestling with various issues
of the faith, things like calling, things like prayer, things
(03:29):
like the Gospel and how to express it and what
it means in the life of an individual. And Melanie,
I'm finding an apologetics. Obviously, we always need the logical, rational,
scientific apologetics, but I'm finding more and more people, especially
what they call Generation Z, more and more people are
looking for an apologetics that is also testimonial, that is
(03:54):
about how someone wrestles within the faith and what it
means to be a Christian and what it means to
live in dialogue with God with Christ. And I think
George Herbert is an ideal voice that we need to
hear today of someone who wrestled very honestly with almost
(04:16):
every aspect of the Christian faith, but in a very
humble way.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Well, I was an English major, and in terms of
seventeenth century poetry and writing, I would read Milton and
John Bunyan and John Donn. So how is he different
than some of those contemporaries that, of course all English majors,
or maybe some people definitely read some of those works
in high school. How's he different from them?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Again, He's very different because even though he's widely read,
he doesn't write an epic. Okay, he doesn't write another
Paradise Loss or Dante's Divine Comedy or something like that.
He narrows his focus in a way. And it's weird
when you read George Herbert. There are all of these
incredible classical allusions to everything. There are biblical illusions. It's
(05:05):
all based on the Bible. But somehow he does it
and yet comes with a vast resource of knowledge and wisdom.
But it's almost like there's this freshness to George Herbert.
We're just gonna go to the Bible, we're gonna wrestle
with we're gonna feel it along our pulses. So even
though he's highly read, he's much more accessible in many
(05:28):
ways than Paradise Loss. Now he does share with John Bunyan,
author of Pilgrim's Progress, the idea of what it means
to live the Christian life. But Bunyan writes this allegory right,
that's also, in its own way, a sort of epic journey,
a long narrative story. Whereas Herbert, although he's interested in
(05:49):
the Christian life and has a lot to teach us
about it, gives us these individual, shorter lyric poems. Everyone
is in a different style, a different rhyme, scheme, different meter.
He's very, very experimental, but he wants to, you know,
get right to the meat of what all Christians wrestle with, says,
(06:10):
they question and try to understand, you know, deep biblical
metaphors and what this means for my life, and what
it means to be a Christian minister, and how we
do often struggle with our calling. And then John Dunn.
He's a little bit closer to John Dunn, because John
Dunn wrote a series of what we call the Holy
Sonnets and a few other Christian poems, but John Dunn
(06:32):
was much more wide ranging. He wrote satire, he wrote
actually very much what we would call seduction poems. So
he's closest to John Dunn, but again a much more
narrow focus. And even though it's clear Herbert knows the
classical works, it's almost like he's giving us a baptized
(06:54):
kind of Christian poetry that goes right back to the
source and focuses on the Bible, but also focuses on
the sacramental life of the Church. And it's from that
small space that he writes his poems and that he
challenges us.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Well, some of our listeners might be in the category
of thinking that poems are a little hard to decipher
or they seem boring. But are there some elements of
the Christian faith that is best expressed in poetry? And
how can you encourage people to go and read some
of his poetry after our conversation.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
It's a good question, And Melanie, we need to be
reminded that a very large portion of the Bible is poetry.
All of the Psalms, almost all of job the Proverbs
are written in poetry. The Song of Solomon, most of
the prophecies, think of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, most of the
prophecies are written in Hebrew poetry. Another thing we don't
(07:55):
often realize is most of Jesus's teachings. Okay, he's got
the parables, but his other teachings, like in the Sermon
on the Mount, are very often expressed in Hebrew poetry
using what's called parallelism, where you say something and repeat
it in a different way. So Jesus often expresses himself
(08:16):
in poetry, and poetry is at once easier to remember
and hold on to and repeat, but at the same
time it's difficult. But that's a good thing. Both Augustine
and Aquinas, in their own way, said that God purposely
made the Bible a little bit difficult so we wouldn't
(08:36):
be lazy, so we would struggle and wrestle with it
and engage the full intellect and imagination that God gave us.
We should not read it passively, we should read it actively.
And remember, everybody always says, this is what we learned
in Sunday School, right, Jesus taught in parable so everyone
could understand. Well, that's not what Jesus said. Jesus said,
(08:59):
I speak comparable, so that only those with eyes to
see will see, and only those with ears to hear
will hear. So there's something to be said for something
that's not you know, purposely obscure, but something that calls
for an engagement, for a reading more deeply, for a
(09:19):
paying attention to every word and every metaphor and every
parallel that's made there. So I think that we do
draw closer to God when it's just like Melany, it's
great if you can learn Greek. I learned a little
bit of Greek, was able to read at least the
Gospel of John and Greek. And yes, it opens up
new things. But guess what, Melani. If you are let's
(09:42):
say you're pretty good in Spanish but not great, get
yourself a Spanish New Testament and struggle to understand it,
and you will get almost as much as you did
by reading the original languages, because when you're reading in
another language, you're forced to pay attention to every word,
every phrase, every strange use of an idea. In English,
(10:03):
it just goes in one year and out the other.
But poetry is a language that makes us stop and
listen and engage the fuller powers that God have given
us of understanding.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Every week. I note that the Christian Research Journal is
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thank you so much for your consideration. And now back
to my conversation with doctor Lewis Marcos about the poetry
of George Herbert. Well, now I want to take a
(14:10):
look specifically at some of his poems that you mentioned
in your article. So why don't you read some of
them aloud to us and let's talk about them.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Let's start with it with a shorter one that I
think is so accessible, and it's called the Windows. It's
just three stands as long. And in this poem, George Herbert.
First of all, I guess I should tell you that
George Herbert, like John Dunn, was highly educated. He went
to Cambridge, he was a member of Parliament. He was
(14:42):
a man about town, and kind of like John Dunn,
George Herbert wanted to be a key player in the
city of London, but somehow God directed him away from
that and ended up sending him to be account the
preacher in Beverton, a very small county, sort of in
(15:05):
the woods, if you will, of England, and he lived
the end of his life just ministering in a very
small congregation. But while he was ministering there, he wrote
a series of poems that were actually published right after
he died, all put together in one book called The Temple,
and we'll look at the Windows at another epoem in
(15:26):
a moment called the Color, where he wrestles with what
it means to be a preacher? Right, how can I
convey God's words to a congregation? What if I mess up?
What if I bring too much of my personal story
in there? Mightn't that take away from the truth of
(15:47):
the Gospel. I think anybody that preaches, or even maybe
a teacher at a Christian school like I am, we
worry are we correctly teaching the message of God's truth? Well,
here he began hinge by saying, Lord, how can man
preach thy eternal word? He is a brittle crazy glass?
(16:09):
So how can anybody preach a I'm like a glass
that's kind of broken and gives a strange reflection? Might
and I do that to God's word? Well, the cool
thing is he's a poet. So as soon as he
is afraid that he's a brittle, crazy glass, a sort
(16:29):
of glass that distorts things, the poet George Herbert says,
wait a minute, I think the answer is in the metaphor,
so let me read the whole poem. Now it's short, Lord,
how can man preach thy eternal word? He is a
brittle crazy glass. Yet in thy temple thou dost him
(16:51):
afford this glorious and transcendent place to be a window
through thy grace. But when thou dost anneal in glass
thy story, making thy life to shine within the holy preachers,
then the light and glory more reverend grows, and more
(17:15):
doth wind, which else shows waterish, bleak and thin doctrine
and life. Colors and light in one when they combine
and mingle, bring a strong regard and awe. But speech
alone doth vanish like a flaring thing, and in the
(17:37):
ear not conscience ring. Now think about two aspects of
a stained glass window. One, when a stained glass window does,
because of its use of colored glass, when the pure
white light shines through the stained glass into the sanctuary
of the church or the cathedral. Even better, it takes
(18:01):
the light and makes it colorful, warm, mysterious. Also, most
of the stained glass windows, especially in George Herbert's day,
are not just bright colors, but they are pictures of
stories from the Bible that convey the Bible to the people.
(18:22):
Especially if you're an illiterate member of a church, you
will see the Bible stories there in the glass. Okay,
So even though the stained glass, in a sense you
could say, almost perverts the white light coming through. What
does it do to that white light? It makes it
(18:43):
more mysterious, more reverent, more filled with awe. It softens everything,
and it brings you into the mystery of God's creation,
especially if the glass itself is telling, say a story
from the Gospels. Now, how does that metaphor helped George
Herbert as the preacher, Well, in the same way that
(19:06):
the white light is refracted through the colored glass to
make something more reverend and mysterious and awful full of awe,
in the same way, when the word of God is
refracted through the life of a preacher like George Herbert,
it could make those stories more real for the congregation.
(19:31):
Now the word will not just go through one ear
and out the other, but now it will hold on
that the Word has been made concrete and personal in
a way that causes it to become more incarnate, in
the way that Jesus himself was incarnate. And what happens
(19:52):
is that the person in the pew is captivated even
more by hearing the story refracted through the life like
the light through the glass. Does that make sense. It's
a little bit complex, but I think it's a powerful
and helpful metaphor.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
It's only three stanzas, but it's got a lot to
stay in there. But because people probably aren't used to
seventeenth century poetry, we are grateful for this conversation with
you today to help us understand what these poems are about. Now,
he has very different poems that you talk about. Another
one is called The Collar. So what is this poem about?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
This is a really neat poem because here again he's
wrestling with his calling, but specifically in this poem The Caller,
he is wrestling with God. I've got all this intellect.
Why did you send me to this little middle of
nowhere church? What am I doing here? What good can
I be here? And I love the title because it's
(20:55):
a punt. Okay. The word caller, it's spelled co l
l a ar is, if you think about it, the
white collar that a Catholic priest or in this case
an Anglican priest would wear. And that collar tells you
that someone is a man of the cloth. But also
it is the collar of when Jesus says, take my
yoke upon you, for my yoke and my burden are
(21:18):
easy and light. It's the collar you put on an
ox and that's what Jesus is referring to that coming
too me. All you are weary and heavy laden, and
I will give you rest, take my yoke upon you,
and learn from me for a gentle and humble in heart.
But also it is what we call a hummin in
if you spell it c holer collar in that case
(21:39):
needs sort of anger and bitterness, and all three are
going on here. He's filled with anger because he feels
like he's being wasted away. I'll just read the opening
lines here, I struck the board and cried no more.
I will abroad. What shall I ever sigh and pine
my lines? Life for free? Free? Is the road, loose
(22:02):
as the wind, as large as store? Shall I be
still in suit? Have I no harvest but a thorn
to let me blood? And now restore what I have
lost with cordial fruit. Sure, there was wine before my
size did dry it, there was corn before my ears
did drown. It is the year only lost to me.
(22:22):
Have I no bays to crown it, no flowers, no garlands, gay,
all blasted, all wasted. Now get it's a little hard
to just hear that without reading it. But the first
thing you've got to know is that it's very scattered.
Every rhyme has a meter and every line rhymes with
another line, but they're scattered all over the place. It's
(22:42):
like impossible to find a pattern like the stanzas of
the first poem, The Window, but it captures the sort
of hecticness of herbs. I can chicken with his head
cut off, kicking off, fighting and screaming and pushing against it.
When he says I struck the board is another word
for a table, as in the room and board, but
(23:04):
it sounds like he's actually hitting the altar table right
where he serves communion. But he's like, no, I'm out
of her Why am I wasting away? I could be
doing this, I could be doing that. It's not again,
there's no harvest, there's no fruit I'm bearing. I think
every Christian has struggled with that in some way or another.
But here's this brilliant preacher who's like thirty years old,
(23:25):
and why are you putting me here now? The point
is that we need to read this poem because God
is not afraid of dialoguing with us. He wants to
hear our frustrations. This is not blasphemy. We don't do
that okay, but we struggle with our calling. Even as
Abraham and Moses they all kind of aggled with God.
(23:50):
God is not a verse to that. And the poet
is struggling in a real way. He's being nakedly honest.
He's trying to figure out, like job, trying to figure
out what is going on. And he keeps going and
jump to the end of the poem. It's not a
very long poem, but he says, no, I'm out of here.
(24:10):
I will abroad. He that forbears to suit and serve
his need deserves his load. Now he say, look, you know,
it's almost like a modern the word of self help
kind of per motivational speaker. Man, it's it's my fault
if I'm just stuck in this little no name ter.
Anybody that doesn't fight for his own destiny doesn't deserve
(24:32):
anything right fighting And then suddenly less four lines. But
as I raved and grew more fierce and wild at
every word, methoughts, I heard one calling child, and I replied,
my Lord. So there in the midst He's wants to
(24:53):
give up, he wants to run away. God whispers in
his ear, the still small voice that Elijah hears pread,
God whispers in his voice, child, and he says, my Lord,
now think of Job raving on and on, and then
suddenly God speaks to him out of the whirlwind and says,
who are you to speak? I know what I'm doing. Now.
(25:16):
What we have here is a mixture of God speaking
to Job out of the whirlwind, but instead of the
wildness of the whirlwind, we have the still small voice
of Elijah. If you remember Elijah in first case, Elijah, remember,
is upset because he's like, you know, God, I did
all these good things for you, and now Jezebel's trying
to kill me. It it's very similar. So here again
(25:41):
for the logician, this may seem like George Herbert's just
bending the knee, but that's often how it works in
the Christian life because we don't know right. Job doesn't
know that of which he speaks, and God has to
remind him every so often. You know, did you create
the Leviathan? Did you create the be a move? Do
(26:01):
you know where the wind comes from? And the snow
and the rain? Again, not every poem is going to
be like this, but there are parts in our life
where God will listen to our ravings. And instead of
giving us an answer, he will just say, child, trust me.
And so the reason why it's important to read this
(26:21):
poem as a modern Christian is we can go on
this journey with him. There's only thirty five lines in
the poem. It's not long, but it feels like we're
going on a journey of discovery and a journey of acceptance.
And you could do that in an essay melody, but
there's nothing like reading the poem and seeing how scattered
(26:43):
the lines are and how Herbert's going from here to
there to there, and then how God brings him back
so gently with that still small voice, child.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
It does have very much of a feel. You are
comparing it to Joe, but also to the Psalmist, you know,
who is exolent.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
It is like the souls very good.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Like David, just yes and just really in inner turmoil
over something and just crying out to God. And it
has that kind of thing, and then the resolution of
seeing the Lord as you know, his rock and salvation,
that kind of.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
But I will yet praise him. Right, everything's falling apart,
but I will yet praise him. So and you know, again,
if you enjoy the souls, I think you will enjoy
The Temple by George Herbert because just like David, Herbert
expresses his joy, his frustration, his confusion, his anger, his gratitude.
(27:45):
It's all there in all these different poems that give
every sort of aspect of living the Christian life. And
again they're they're they're not easy, but you can work
at it. It's like like I love T. S. Elliott,
but sometimes he's just too difficult for the normal reader,
and anyway, you need ten thousand notes for TS. Eliot.
(28:06):
Herbert is not easy, but like C. S. Lewis, I
think he's accessible. If you just take your time and
read it out loud and engage with it, I think
you'll find that it is accessible.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
And I think too, it has something to say to
modern folks, maybe even people who work in have a
specific Christian calling, because he is wrestling with why should
I be doing this? It's so difficult, and I think
there are you know, we hear stories and testimonies of
how hard it is to be a pastor, and there
(28:42):
are a lot of times when pastors are downcast and
overwhelmed by their calling, and so it seems like even
way back then in the sixteen hundreds. He went through
this as well.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Good people still struggled, and we have to not feel
like we're the only person struggling in the void. We
have these great voices from the past, and like I said,
it includes King David, these voices of people beloved by
God who yet wrestled and struggled, but came to faith
in the end, like Lewis's memoir A Grief Observed, wrestling
(29:13):
with the death of his wife, he comes back to
a higher faith, but the struggle is real.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
So one of his other poems is one called Redemption.
So he has a metaphor in that, and so tell
us a little bit about that particular.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
This is a sonnet that means it's only fourteen lines,
and it is his wrestling with sort of prayer and petition,
and he's going to make a metaphor here where God
is the landlord and George Herbert the poet is a
tenant right who lives on the land, and he wants
(29:52):
to go to the landlord and petition for a new
lease of land. And it's going to be a metaphor
for the movement from the Old Testament to the New Testament,
or the Old Covenant to the new Covenant. So it says,
having been tenant long to a rich lord, not thriving,
(30:13):
I resolved to be bold and make a suit unto him,
to afford a new, small rented lease and cancel the old.
In heaven at his manner, I him sought. They told
me there that he was lately gone about some land
which he had dearly bought long since on earth, to
(30:35):
take possession. I straight returned, and, knowing his great birth,
sought him accordingly in great resorts, in cities, theaters, gardens, parks,
and courts. At length, I heard a ragged noise and
mirth of themes and murderers. There I him as spied,
(30:58):
who straight, your suit is granted? Said and night. Like
most sonnets, think of Shakespeare's sonnets done rather, Herbert just
pack so much information into fourteen lions. That's always the
challenge of the sonnet, how much can you say in
such a small space. What I love about this is
(31:18):
it begins as a traditional metaphor, where God is the
landlord and Herbert is the tenant. But as you read
the poem, it suddenly goes past poetry to become real,
so that now it's not just that God is like
a landlord. God is the landlord, because when he says
in heaven and his manner, I him sword. Now suddenly
(31:42):
it is God himself who is the landlord. At the
same time, when the eye the tenant says that he
sought him in cities, theaters, gardens, parks and courts, this
is no longer just every man tenant. It is George Herbert, him,
the man who thought God was going to call him
(32:02):
to the city's theaters, gardens, parks and courts, but who
instead was sent out to the little town of Beverton.
But here God goes him one better. He seeks God
in these places, these high society London places, but he
doesn't find him there. But guess what, Melanie, He doesn't
find the landlord in Beverton, in a small poor area,
(32:28):
he finds him crucified amongst thieves and murderers. So we
think George Herbert humbled himself in following the calling God
gave him. But think how much more God humbled himself
that he came down not only to live as one
(32:48):
of his tenants, but to actually die that terrible death
in the Pomembrant. On either side of the cross were
thieves and murderers on either side of the cross. So
this is a poem that has a metaphor, and then
it sort of transcends the metaphor to tell us that
God isn't just like a landlord. God is a landlord,
(33:11):
but he is one who came and dwelt among us
and gave all to buy that new lease for us
to move from law to grace. It's a lot there
in that fourteen line poem. Milly.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yes, it seems like a lot of his poetry is
quite short, but yet he says a lot about, in
this case, the power of prayer.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I do as I'm one who thinks most novels, in
most movies are longer than they need to be. I
like the power of Herbert to condense things to their
essence and give them to us instead of going on
and on and on. Even Milton goes on and on.
Sometimes that could have been a lot shorter epic.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Well, I wonder if that was kind of an outlet
for him, as you know, he had to write all
these long sermons. But then he had some you know,
feelings about some of this, you know.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
His That's a good point and an interesting one. And
in some ways, Herbert's poems are his journal entries or
his diary, but like I said, at the same time,
they're very personal. They transcend the personal to talk about
again what it means to be a Christian serving the
God of the universe. So you could call it his blog.
(34:32):
And as far as Herbert knew, a lot of these
poems might not have been read. Thank god, he had
some friends to help him and get it published, to
share these poems with people, which, like I said, C. S.
Lewis loved to read them again and again, and they
helped him in his sense of ministry.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Well, another one of his poems that you talk about
in your article is one that's called Prayer one, and
he talked about dealing with prayer, and that's kind of interesting.
Did he have a prayer too?
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, every song he would write a number of poems
with the same title, and that's why some of the
poems the editors later put in a one or a
two in parentheses to distinguish them. He does that.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
So he also talks about wrestling with the Gospel. And
he has one that is called Easter Wings and it's
in a specific shape too. Can you tell us about it?
Speaker 2 (35:31):
But let's jump to that, because Easter Wings is wonderful.
A shaped poem means that the way the poem is
laid out on the page, it actually looks like something.
So there's two stanzas to this poem, and if you
put them on their side, they look like the wings
of a bird. Because what he does is he's got
(35:52):
a long line, and the line keeps getting shorter and
shorter and shorter till it's really short, and then it
starts to expand. And what Herbert did is by centering
each of the lines, they literally get shorter and shorter
to there's this tiny little line, and then it gets
bigger and bigger. So the poem looks like the easter wings.
(36:14):
The story we think of, what is it Isaiah? Is
it Isaiah? Forty? We will be lifted up on wings
like eagles. It's forty or forty one that we will
be lifted up, and that wonder But it's also, of
course the lifting up of the resurrection, when Jesus rises
up on easter wings. So this poem is amazing. Let me,
(36:34):
let me, let me read. There's just two stanzas to it,
and they both basically mean the same thing. Just more intensely,
Lord who createth man in wealth and store, Though foolishly
he lost the same, decaying more and more till he
became most poor with the Oh, let me rise as
(36:57):
larks harmoniously and say this day thy victories. Then shall
the fall further the flight in me. Okay, here's the second.
My tender age and sorrow did begin, and still with
sickness and shame. Thou didst so punish sin that I
(37:17):
became most thin with thee. Let me combine and feel
this day thy victory. For if I imp my wing
on thine affliction shall advance the flight in me. Now,
the difference between Stanza one and Stanza two is that
Stanza one is general, it's about man mankind, whereas Stanza
(37:41):
iiO is personal. It is the eye. It is George Herbert.
So we move from the general to the specific, from
all Christians to a specific Christian named Herbert, who's wrestling
with the Gospel and what he's talking about. Again, Lord
who createst man in wealth and store. Remember, we were
created good in Eden. We had all things God walked
(38:06):
in our midst. Though foolishly he lost the same, because
we ate of the forbidden fruit. We lost that position
that God had given us in Genesis. And what happened Literally,
we started to thin out, so ten syllables, eight syllables, six, four,
all the way down to two syllables. So foolishly he
(38:29):
lost the same, decaying more and more till he became
most poor. So this is what happened to us in Adam.
We decayed more and more. Sinning is thinning, right, We
less and less until there's almost nothing most poor. But
then the next line says, with THEE, so here we man,
(38:51):
we have become most poor. But then God stoops and
joins together with THEE. So it's so powerful, and we
see it in the poem. God has made himself so
small that he can now allie with us. He has
taken on Now he doesn't take on our sin, but
(39:13):
he takes on everything else, and he becomes most poor.
But with THEE. Now the two of us are connected,
and now we can move. Remember Remember what Paul says, Melanie,
let me share in Christ's crucifixion, so that I may
share also in his resurrection. That's literally what's happening in
this poe. With THEE. Oh, let me rise as Lark's harmonic.
(39:36):
So I'm about to soar and sing this day thy victories.
We're singing the victory of Christ on Easter. This is
an Easter poem. But because Christ has allied himself with us,
we are singing our own victory over death. Because He
has met us at the lowest point, grabbed a hold
of us, and took us up. Then shall the fall
(39:58):
further the flight in me. One of my favorite Latin
phrases is felix kopa. Felix means happy, as in felicity,
and kupa as inculpable, means guilt. So felix gupa means
happy guilt. Now what does that mean. It's a reference
to the fall of man. How can the fall of
(40:18):
man be a happy guilt? That's terrible? Well, it's only
terrible in and of itself, But when you view it
from God's perspective, it's a happy guilt because the fall
of man led to a greater act of love, the incarnation,
when God took on our flesh and became man. Now
(40:40):
what do we call the day Jesus was crucified Good Friday?
Have we lost our mind? The single worst day in
human history? We call it Good well. In and of itself,
It's not good, but it is good because it leads
to the victory of Easter Sunday. That's what this poem
is about. It's about so much more right. So then
shall the fall, Because I found well, I can soar
(41:01):
even higher by tying myself to Christ and going on.
So it becomes a fortunate fall. As crazy as that sounds,
that himself, my tender age and sorrow, did begin, and
still with sickness and shame, now did so punishin that
I became most thin. So like Adam, I myself have
wasted away my gifts. I've not obeyed you until I've
(41:23):
become most thin. But then, once again with THEE. Just
as Christ allies himself with fallen man, he allies himself
personally with fallen George Herbert with THEE. Let me combined,
Let me join with you. Let me become the second
atom as you are the second atom, and feel this
day Easter thy victory. For if I imp my wing
(41:47):
on thine, that means when you graft feathers onto other feathers.
So I'm gonna graft my wing, which is broken, onto
your wing, the wing of Easter. And then affliction shall
advance the flight in me. Not only the Christian, but
George Herbert shall be able to soar higher because of
(42:12):
his affliction. I mean, that's an entire sermon in about
twenty lines. I mean, it's unbelievable the depth of this.
And again, if you get a copy, and by the way,
if you just go online, you can read George Herbert
for free. But get a book. It's not very expensive,
but you can find some of these. All of these
poems can be found online free. Just type in George
(42:34):
Herbert Easter Wings text and you'll find it. But again,
it is about that incredible mystery of how God not
only became man but allowed us to resurrect with him
and join in his victory.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Now I wish, I definitely think that our listeners need
to go look for this poem, easter Wings, because it
is so unusual looking. It's from these long sentences into
just like two words. And so why do you think
he particularly decided to put this poem and make it
a shaped poem.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Well, because he wanted to basically appeal to the eye
and the ear at the same time. So we experience
the fall and the rise by listening to it, and
by understanding the biblical story, but by seeing it, I
think it helps us to participate in the movement or
(43:33):
the motion that you must descend before you can ascend, right,
And that's really the metaphor. Remember what it says, though
he was found in very nature God, you did not
consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied
himself and took on the form of a servant Jess
Philippians too, God goes down down Jesus until even death
(43:54):
on a cross, I mean, the absolute. But then it says,
therefore the Lord has exalted him and given him a
name that is above every name, that the name of Jesus.
And then so Philippians too, goes down, down, down, down, down,
and at the very bottom it says therefore, and then
it moves up until he is the name of which
every inge will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus
(44:16):
Christ's Lord, to the glory of God the Father. It's
that movement, and we participate in it visually by seeing
it as we do by hearing it.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Well, I'm going to talk about one last poem with you,
and that must be like his prayer one in prayer too,
because this is called love three.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
I love three. And by the way, this has been
set to music. I can't remember who did it, but
I heard somebody at my university sing this poem and
it was just beautiful. And it's a great way to end, Melanie,
because the collar is a dialogue between Herbert and God,
and he's very frustrated back and forth. This is a
dialogue too, but it's a dialogue at which, you know, Melanie,
(45:00):
it's hard for us to accept grace. Can I be
really worthy? And of course the point is grace. We're
not worthy? Right? But can God really love me so much?
Remember God is not just just letting us go to heaven.
God wants us to be where he is in heaven.
This is amazing, love, Melanie. Right, many of us would
(45:20):
be willing to send money to people that are living
in a poor shack. How many of us want to
become poor ourselves and live alongside them. This is amazing
that God wants to be with us. And so what
we've got is a dialogue and it's written with long
a long line that's ten syllables long, followed by a
(45:41):
short line that's six syllables, and it gives us that
give and take, back and forth, swelling out and then
pulling back in fear, moving towards God, and then afraid
and will work our way through it. Love, which is
ultimately God Christ. Love bade me welcome, Come in, George.
(46:02):
Yet my soul drew back, guilty of dust and sin.
We're not only guilty of sin, We're guilty of the
fact that we're mortal creatures, ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
How can I come into the presence of God? I
draw back in fear, guilty of dust and sin. And
of course the reason we're dust is because we die,
(46:23):
which is because of adam sin. So it's all part
of sin. But quick eyed Love, observing me gross slack, see,
I got short and scared from my first entrance in,
drew nearer to me, sweetly, questioning if I lacked anything, Come,
my son, what's wrong? Why won't you come? I've invited
(46:45):
you in. What do you want a guest? I answered,
worthy to be here? Love said you shall be He
I the unkind, ungrateful, Oh, my dear, I cannot look
on thee. Love took my hand and smiling did reply,
(47:06):
who made the eyes? But I truth, Lord? But I
have marred. Then let my shame go where it doth deserve.
And know you not, says Love, who bore the blame,
my dear, Then I will serve. You must sit down,
says Love, and taste my meat. So I did sit
(47:31):
and eat. You know, it's weird, Melanie. Some people think
that they're too good for God, and they become prideful.
But some people think they're too bad for God. But
that's what grace is all about. God wants us. You know,
I go to purplace. You know, let not your hearts
be troubled. Right, believe in God. Believe also in me. Right,
(47:52):
I go to prepare a place for you. And if
I do that, I will come back and take you
so that you can be with me. And Melanie, you
might have heard a servant about how at the time
of Jesus, what the Jews would do is, if I'm
a bridegroom, I'm supposed to go and build a home.
Then I go and get my bride and bring her
(48:13):
with me. So it's a beautiful, beautiful marriage image that
Jesus is using. It's John chapter fourteen, the Upper Room discourse.
But anyway, here it goes back and forth. Now, God
has to haggle with Herbert and say, no, no, listen, okay,
yes you deserve it, but I bore the blame. I
bore the blame for you. I have made you worthy.
(48:35):
And now I will sit and I will give you
of the banquet. And finally he gives up and says,
so I did sit and eat right. So again, the
Christian life is a life of dialogue, and if we're
(48:55):
open and speak, God will answer, usually in the still
small voice, slowly nudging us in a certain direction. And again,
in some ways we've all had a dialogue like this.
It's just not so beautifully put in this wonderful poetry,
but as we read it, we go through that same dialogue,
(49:15):
so that Jesus has to assure us, yes, I love you,
I died for you, I have imputed to you my righteousness.
Now come and let me feed you. Belove it. Well.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
I really appreciate you taking us through all of his work,
because I was not familiar with his poetry. And just
so our listeners know, if you go up and do
some research on him, he did not live to be
very old. He died when he was thirty nine years old.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
I know, very very sad and he died probably of tuberculosis,
as many people did back then. But thank God he
wrote these poems and and you know, left them as
a legacy see to us, and again, get a book
and read it devotionally. Read a poem or two poems
at night, think about them, wrestle with them. They just
(50:09):
and most of them go through the sacred year. In
other words, there's a poem about almost every festival or event.
So obviously Easter Wings is about Easter, and he's got
stuff that's got to do with all the different parts
of the sacred calendar, which Anglicans are still very high
church as they go through the sacred year. And so
(50:32):
I would encourage you to read it devotionally. I think
you'll find it worth worth the effort.
Speaker 1 (50:39):
Well, it's interesting to think about somebody's poetry that lived
so long ago. And he died in sixteen thirty three,
And in fact I looked up some biographical information about him,
and he had just recently gotten married back to like
forty years before he died. So he just lived a
short life. But his legacy, I guess, of his work
(51:02):
and his encouragement to Christians lives on all these many
hundreds of years later. It is.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
It's a rich legacy. It is one we want to
be proud of and partake of. You can buy a book,
but you can also read it for free, So do
take the time and English majors like myself and Melody
will be very proud of you.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
Will be grateful. Well. Now, on a fun note, at
your house, lou, what do you guys have for Easter
luncher dinners? Do you have some of that?
Speaker 2 (51:30):
Why? Gosh, Park, Actually, I'm kind of a big chicken eater.
Sometimes we do a turkey again, but we're more likely
to do either a ham or a chicken.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Well, thank you so much for being on the Postmodern
Realities podcast again.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Thanks for having me on again. It was great.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
You've been listening to episode four hundred and forty nine
of the post Modern Realities Podcast. Today's guest was doctor
Lewis Marcos. He has written an online feature article for
the Christian Research Journal. His article is called George Herbert's
Devotional Poetry, An Apologist's Guide to God's Call, Prayer and
(52:10):
Gospel Transformation. You can read it for free at equip
dot org.
Speaker 3 (52:14):
You won't want to miss out on subscribing to the
other podcasts from the Christian Research Institute, we have the
Bible answer Man podcast, which is published Monday through Friday,
with the best of the week on Saturday. It's hosted
by CRI President Hank Handigraph and is available wherever you
get your favorite podcasts. In addition, Hank has a podcast
(52:37):
called Hank Unplugged. Hank takes you out of the studio
and into his study to engage in free flowing, essential
Christian conversations on critical issues with some of the most interesting,
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want to miss out on the brand new podcast from
(52:57):
the Christian Research Journal. Research Journal Reads presents audio versions
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you won't want to.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
Miss these audio articles of some
Speaker 3 (53:16):
Of our most popular and most accessed articles on our
website equip dot org.
Hi everyone, Thank you for tuning in to the Postmodern
Realities podcast, brought to you by the Christian Research Institute
and the Christian Research Journal. I'm Melanie Cogdill, Managing editor
of the Christian Research Journal. It's June twenty twenty five,
and this is episode four hundred and forty nine, which
is a conversation about the poetry of George Herbert. On
(00:45):
this episode, I'm joined by doctor Lewis Marcos, who is
Professor in English and a scholar in residence at Houston
Christian University. He holds the Robert H. Ray Sharon Humanities
and his twenty five books, including his newest book, just
published in April, which is called Passing the Torch, An
Apology for Classical Christian Education. Lou has written an online
(01:09):
feature article for the Christian Research Journal. His article is
called George Herbert's Devotional Poetry, An Apologist's Guide to God's Call,
prayer and Gospel Transformation. You can read this article for
free at a quick dot org. That's equip dot org. Lou,
it's great to have you on the podcast again.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
It is great to be back again, Melanie.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Well, our listeners might be interested in today's conversation and
might not know very much about the person's work who
we're talking about, and that is a seventeenth century Anglican
minister whose name is George Herbert. So why should modern
Christians even care about this person? And how would you
(01:55):
say he relates to apologetics and evangelism.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Well, I'll tell you. Let me begin by saying C. S.
Lewis the greatest apologist of the twentieth century. Near the
end of his life, a magazine called Christian Century, which
is still around, asked him to give them a list
of the top ten books that influenced him, not just
intellectually but in terms of his calling and his ministry. Interestingly,
(02:20):
and Lewis on that top ten list did not include
Paradise Lost or Pilgrim's Progress, but he included another seventeenth
century writer named George Herbert, who wrote his collection of
poems called The Temple. And these poems are really devotional poems.
They're not big, sweeping epics like Paradise Lost. They're not
(02:42):
this giant epic allegory of the Christian life that's Pilgrim's Progress.
They're very narrowly focused, short lyrical poems about living the
devotional life, about the life of the Church, about aspects
of the Bible, about aspects of the Temple itself and
of the sacraments and whatnot. And they're very simple poems,
(03:06):
but they are. It's kind of amazing. They're all very
much personal poems. But they're not purely subjective. They're not
just oh, look at me, look at me, look at me.
They are a Christian everyman who's wrestling with various issues
of the faith, things like calling, things like prayer, things
(03:29):
like the Gospel and how to express it and what
it means in the life of an individual. And Melanie,
I'm finding an apologetics. Obviously, we always need the logical, rational,
scientific apologetics, but I'm finding more and more people, especially
what they call Generation Z, more and more people are
looking for an apologetics that is also testimonial, that is
(03:54):
about how someone wrestles within the faith and what it
means to be a Christian and what it means to
live in dialogue with God with Christ. And I think
George Herbert is an ideal voice that we need to
hear today of someone who wrestled very honestly with almost
(04:16):
every aspect of the Christian faith, but in a very
humble way.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Well, I was an English major, and in terms of
seventeenth century poetry and writing, I would read Milton and
John Bunyan and John Donn. So how is he different
than some of those contemporaries that, of course all English majors,
or maybe some people definitely read some of those works
in high school. How's he different from them?
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Again, He's very different because even though he's widely read,
he doesn't write an epic. Okay, he doesn't write another
Paradise Loss or Dante's Divine Comedy or something like that.
He narrows his focus in a way. And it's weird
when you read George Herbert. There are all of these
incredible classical allusions to everything. There are biblical illusions. It's
(05:05):
all based on the Bible. But somehow he does it
and yet comes with a vast resource of knowledge and wisdom.
But it's almost like there's this freshness to George Herbert.
We're just gonna go to the Bible, we're gonna wrestle
with we're gonna feel it along our pulses. So even
though he's highly read, he's much more accessible in many
(05:28):
ways than Paradise Loss. Now he does share with John Bunyan,
author of Pilgrim's Progress, the idea of what it means
to live the Christian life. But Bunyan writes this allegory right,
that's also, in its own way, a sort of epic journey,
a long narrative story. Whereas Herbert, although he's interested in
(05:49):
the Christian life and has a lot to teach us
about it, gives us these individual, shorter lyric poems. Everyone
is in a different style, a different rhyme, scheme, different meter.
He's very, very experimental, but he wants to, you know,
get right to the meat of what all Christians wrestle with, says,
(06:10):
they question and try to understand, you know, deep biblical
metaphors and what this means for my life, and what
it means to be a Christian minister, and how we
do often struggle with our calling. And then John Dunn.
He's a little bit closer to John Dunn, because John
Dunn wrote a series of what we call the Holy
Sonnets and a few other Christian poems, but John Dunn
(06:32):
was much more wide ranging. He wrote satire, he wrote
actually very much what we would call seduction poems. So
he's closest to John Dunn, but again a much more
narrow focus. And even though it's clear Herbert knows the
classical works, it's almost like he's giving us a baptized
(06:54):
kind of Christian poetry that goes right back to the
source and focuses on the Bible, but also focuses on
the sacramental life of the Church. And it's from that
small space that he writes his poems and that he
challenges us.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Well, some of our listeners might be in the category
of thinking that poems are a little hard to decipher
or they seem boring. But are there some elements of
the Christian faith that is best expressed in poetry? And
how can you encourage people to go and read some
of his poetry after our conversation.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
It's a good question, And Melanie, we need to be
reminded that a very large portion of the Bible is poetry.
All of the Psalms, almost all of job the Proverbs
are written in poetry. The Song of Solomon, most of
the prophecies, think of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, most of the
prophecies are written in Hebrew poetry. Another thing we don't
(07:55):
often realize is most of Jesus's teachings. Okay, he's got
the parables, but his other teachings, like in the Sermon
on the Mount, are very often expressed in Hebrew poetry
using what's called parallelism, where you say something and repeat
it in a different way. So Jesus often expresses himself
(08:16):
in poetry, and poetry is at once easier to remember
and hold on to and repeat, but at the same
time it's difficult. But that's a good thing. Both Augustine
and Aquinas, in their own way, said that God purposely
made the Bible a little bit difficult so we wouldn't
(08:36):
be lazy, so we would struggle and wrestle with it
and engage the full intellect and imagination that God gave us.
We should not read it passively, we should read it actively.
And remember, everybody always says, this is what we learned
in Sunday School, right, Jesus taught in parable so everyone
could understand. Well, that's not what Jesus said. Jesus said,
(08:59):
I speak comparable, so that only those with eyes to
see will see, and only those with ears to hear
will hear. So there's something to be said for something
that's not you know, purposely obscure, but something that calls
for an engagement, for a reading more deeply, for a
(09:19):
paying attention to every word and every metaphor and every
parallel that's made there. So I think that we do
draw closer to God when it's just like Melany, it's
great if you can learn Greek. I learned a little
bit of Greek, was able to read at least the
Gospel of John and Greek. And yes, it opens up
new things. But guess what, Melani. If you are let's
(09:42):
say you're pretty good in Spanish but not great, get
yourself a Spanish New Testament and struggle to understand it,
and you will get almost as much as you did
by reading the original languages, because when you're reading in
another language, you're forced to pay attention to every word,
every phrase, every strange use of an idea. In English,
(10:03):
it just goes in one year and out the other.
But poetry is a language that makes us stop and
listen and engage the fuller powers that God have given
us of understanding.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Every week. I note that the Christian Research Journal is
a ministry outreach of the Christian Research Institute, and we've
transitioned after almost fifty years from a print magazine to
an online magazine, and I do want to make a
really exciting announcement and that is forthcoming in the next
(10:39):
several months. You will see us come out with a
special print magazine focused on more than a year's in
depth primary research by our president hay Canagraph about a
new religious movement that's going around in the world that's
very spiritually dangerous to its adherents, and it keeps growing.
(11:00):
So we want to make you all aware of it.
And it's a special issue, print issue devoted only to
that group. So it's a very in depth research project
that we are excited to get out there, and we're
in the midst of putting it together in a print form.
So if you give to the ongoing work of the
Christian Research Institute, you will be able to get a
(11:20):
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thank you so much for your consideration. And now back
to my conversation with doctor Lewis Marcos about the poetry
of George Herbert. Well, now I want to take a
(14:10):
look specifically at some of his poems that you mentioned
in your article. So why don't you read some of
them aloud to us and let's talk about them.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Let's start with it with a shorter one that I
think is so accessible, and it's called the Windows. It's
just three stands as long. And in this poem, George Herbert.
First of all, I guess I should tell you that
George Herbert, like John Dunn, was highly educated. He went
to Cambridge, he was a member of Parliament. He was
(14:42):
a man about town, and kind of like John Dunn,
George Herbert wanted to be a key player in the
city of London, but somehow God directed him away from
that and ended up sending him to be account the
preacher in Beverton, a very small county, sort of in
(15:05):
the woods, if you will, of England, and he lived
the end of his life just ministering in a very
small congregation. But while he was ministering there, he wrote
a series of poems that were actually published right after
he died, all put together in one book called The Temple,
and we'll look at the Windows at another epoem in
(15:26):
a moment called the Color, where he wrestles with what
it means to be a preacher? Right, how can I
convey God's words to a congregation? What if I mess up?
What if I bring too much of my personal story
in there? Mightn't that take away from the truth of
(15:47):
the Gospel. I think anybody that preaches, or even maybe
a teacher at a Christian school like I am, we
worry are we correctly teaching the message of God's truth? Well,
here he began hinge by saying, Lord, how can man
preach thy eternal word? He is a brittle crazy glass?
(16:09):
So how can anybody preach a I'm like a glass
that's kind of broken and gives a strange reflection? Might
and I do that to God's word? Well, the cool
thing is he's a poet. So as soon as he
is afraid that he's a brittle, crazy glass, a sort
(16:29):
of glass that distorts things, the poet George Herbert says,
wait a minute, I think the answer is in the metaphor,
so let me read the whole poem. Now it's short, Lord,
how can man preach thy eternal word? He is a
brittle crazy glass. Yet in thy temple thou dost him
(16:51):
afford this glorious and transcendent place to be a window
through thy grace. But when thou dost anneal in glass
thy story, making thy life to shine within the holy preachers,
then the light and glory more reverend grows, and more
(17:15):
doth wind, which else shows waterish, bleak and thin doctrine
and life. Colors and light in one when they combine
and mingle, bring a strong regard and awe. But speech
alone doth vanish like a flaring thing, and in the
(17:37):
ear not conscience ring. Now think about two aspects of
a stained glass window. One, when a stained glass window does,
because of its use of colored glass, when the pure
white light shines through the stained glass into the sanctuary
of the church or the cathedral. Even better, it takes
(18:01):
the light and makes it colorful, warm, mysterious. Also, most
of the stained glass windows, especially in George Herbert's day,
are not just bright colors, but they are pictures of
stories from the Bible that convey the Bible to the people.
(18:22):
Especially if you're an illiterate member of a church, you
will see the Bible stories there in the glass. Okay,
So even though the stained glass, in a sense you
could say, almost perverts the white light coming through. What
does it do to that white light? It makes it
(18:43):
more mysterious, more reverent, more filled with awe. It softens everything,
and it brings you into the mystery of God's creation,
especially if the glass itself is telling, say a story
from the Gospels. Now, how does that metaphor helped George
Herbert as the preacher, Well, in the same way that
(19:06):
the white light is refracted through the colored glass to
make something more reverend and mysterious and awful full of awe,
in the same way, when the word of God is
refracted through the life of a preacher like George Herbert,
it could make those stories more real for the congregation.
(19:31):
Now the word will not just go through one ear
and out the other, but now it will hold on
that the Word has been made concrete and personal in
a way that causes it to become more incarnate, in
the way that Jesus himself was incarnate. And what happens
(19:52):
is that the person in the pew is captivated even
more by hearing the story refracted through the life like
the light through the glass. Does that make sense. It's
a little bit complex, but I think it's a powerful
and helpful metaphor.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
It's only three stanzas, but it's got a lot to
stay in there. But because people probably aren't used to
seventeenth century poetry, we are grateful for this conversation with
you today to help us understand what these poems are about. Now,
he has very different poems that you talk about. Another
one is called The Collar. So what is this poem about?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
This is a really neat poem because here again he's
wrestling with his calling, but specifically in this poem The Caller,
he is wrestling with God. I've got all this intellect.
Why did you send me to this little middle of
nowhere church? What am I doing here? What good can
I be here? And I love the title because it's
(20:55):
a punt. Okay. The word caller, it's spelled co l
l a ar is, if you think about it, the
white collar that a Catholic priest or in this case
an Anglican priest would wear. And that collar tells you
that someone is a man of the cloth. But also
it is the collar of when Jesus says, take my
yoke upon you, for my yoke and my burden are
(21:18):
easy and light. It's the collar you put on an
ox and that's what Jesus is referring to that coming
too me. All you are weary and heavy laden, and
I will give you rest, take my yoke upon you,
and learn from me for a gentle and humble in heart.
But also it is what we call a hummin in
if you spell it c holer collar in that case
(21:39):
needs sort of anger and bitterness, and all three are
going on here. He's filled with anger because he feels
like he's being wasted away. I'll just read the opening
lines here, I struck the board and cried no more.
I will abroad. What shall I ever sigh and pine
my lines? Life for free? Free? Is the road, loose
(22:02):
as the wind, as large as store? Shall I be
still in suit? Have I no harvest but a thorn
to let me blood? And now restore what I have
lost with cordial fruit. Sure, there was wine before my
size did dry it, there was corn before my ears
did drown. It is the year only lost to me.
(22:22):
Have I no bays to crown it, no flowers, no garlands, gay,
all blasted, all wasted. Now get it's a little hard
to just hear that without reading it. But the first
thing you've got to know is that it's very scattered.
Every rhyme has a meter and every line rhymes with
another line, but they're scattered all over the place. It's
(22:42):
like impossible to find a pattern like the stanzas of
the first poem, The Window, but it captures the sort
of hecticness of herbs. I can chicken with his head
cut off, kicking off, fighting and screaming and pushing against it.
When he says I struck the board is another word
for a table, as in the room and board, but
(23:04):
it sounds like he's actually hitting the altar table right
where he serves communion. But he's like, no, I'm out
of her Why am I wasting away? I could be
doing this, I could be doing that. It's not again,
there's no harvest, there's no fruit I'm bearing. I think
every Christian has struggled with that in some way or another.
But here's this brilliant preacher who's like thirty years old,
(23:25):
and why are you putting me here now? The point
is that we need to read this poem because God
is not afraid of dialoguing with us. He wants to
hear our frustrations. This is not blasphemy. We don't do
that okay, but we struggle with our calling. Even as
Abraham and Moses they all kind of aggled with God.
(23:50):
God is not a verse to that. And the poet
is struggling in a real way. He's being nakedly honest.
He's trying to figure out, like job, trying to figure
out what is going on. And he keeps going and
jump to the end of the poem. It's not a
very long poem, but he says, no, I'm out of here.
(24:10):
I will abroad. He that forbears to suit and serve
his need deserves his load. Now he say, look, you know,
it's almost like a modern the word of self help
kind of per motivational speaker. Man, it's it's my fault
if I'm just stuck in this little no name ter.
Anybody that doesn't fight for his own destiny doesn't deserve
(24:32):
anything right fighting And then suddenly less four lines. But
as I raved and grew more fierce and wild at
every word, methoughts, I heard one calling child, and I replied,
my Lord. So there in the midst He's wants to
(24:53):
give up, he wants to run away. God whispers in
his ear, the still small voice that Elijah hears pread,
God whispers in his voice, child, and he says, my Lord,
now think of Job raving on and on, and then
suddenly God speaks to him out of the whirlwind and says,
who are you to speak? I know what I'm doing. Now.
(25:16):
What we have here is a mixture of God speaking
to Job out of the whirlwind, but instead of the
wildness of the whirlwind, we have the still small voice
of Elijah. If you remember Elijah in first case, Elijah, remember,
is upset because he's like, you know, God, I did
all these good things for you, and now Jezebel's trying
to kill me. It it's very similar. So here again
(25:41):
for the logician, this may seem like George Herbert's just
bending the knee, but that's often how it works in
the Christian life because we don't know right. Job doesn't
know that of which he speaks, and God has to
remind him every so often. You know, did you create
the Leviathan? Did you create the be a move? Do
(26:01):
you know where the wind comes from? And the snow
and the rain? Again, not every poem is going to
be like this, but there are parts in our life
where God will listen to our ravings. And instead of
giving us an answer, he will just say, child, trust me.
And so the reason why it's important to read this
(26:21):
poem as a modern Christian is we can go on
this journey with him. There's only thirty five lines in
the poem. It's not long, but it feels like we're
going on a journey of discovery and a journey of acceptance.
And you could do that in an essay melody, but
there's nothing like reading the poem and seeing how scattered
(26:43):
the lines are and how Herbert's going from here to
there to there, and then how God brings him back
so gently with that still small voice, child.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
It does have very much of a feel. You are
comparing it to Joe, but also to the Psalmist, you know,
who is exolent.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
It is like the souls very good.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Like David, just yes and just really in inner turmoil
over something and just crying out to God. And it
has that kind of thing, and then the resolution of
seeing the Lord as you know, his rock and salvation,
that kind of.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
But I will yet praise him. Right, everything's falling apart,
but I will yet praise him. So and you know, again,
if you enjoy the souls, I think you will enjoy
The Temple by George Herbert because just like David, Herbert
expresses his joy, his frustration, his confusion, his anger, his gratitude.
(27:45):
It's all there in all these different poems that give
every sort of aspect of living the Christian life. And
again they're they're they're not easy, but you can work
at it. It's like like I love T. S. Elliott,
but sometimes he's just too difficult for the normal reader,
and anyway, you need ten thousand notes for TS. Eliot.
(28:06):
Herbert is not easy, but like C. S. Lewis, I
think he's accessible. If you just take your time and
read it out loud and engage with it, I think
you'll find that it is accessible.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
And I think too, it has something to say to
modern folks, maybe even people who work in have a
specific Christian calling, because he is wrestling with why should
I be doing this? It's so difficult, and I think
there are you know, we hear stories and testimonies of
how hard it is to be a pastor, and there
(28:42):
are a lot of times when pastors are downcast and
overwhelmed by their calling, and so it seems like even
way back then in the sixteen hundreds. He went through
this as well.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Good people still struggled, and we have to not feel
like we're the only person struggling in the void. We
have these great voices from the past, and like I said,
it includes King David, these voices of people beloved by
God who yet wrestled and struggled, but came to faith
in the end, like Lewis's memoir A Grief Observed, wrestling
(29:13):
with the death of his wife, he comes back to
a higher faith, but the struggle is real.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
So one of his other poems is one called Redemption.
So he has a metaphor in that, and so tell
us a little bit about that particular.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
This is a sonnet that means it's only fourteen lines,
and it is his wrestling with sort of prayer and petition,
and he's going to make a metaphor here where God
is the landlord and George Herbert the poet is a
tenant right who lives on the land, and he wants
(29:52):
to go to the landlord and petition for a new
lease of land. And it's going to be a metaphor
for the movement from the Old Testament to the New Testament,
or the Old Covenant to the new Covenant. So it says,
having been tenant long to a rich lord, not thriving,
(30:13):
I resolved to be bold and make a suit unto him,
to afford a new, small rented lease and cancel the old.
In heaven at his manner, I him sought. They told
me there that he was lately gone about some land
which he had dearly bought long since on earth, to
(30:35):
take possession. I straight returned, and, knowing his great birth,
sought him accordingly in great resorts, in cities, theaters, gardens, parks,
and courts. At length, I heard a ragged noise and
mirth of themes and murderers. There I him as spied,
(30:58):
who straight, your suit is granted? Said and night. Like
most sonnets, think of Shakespeare's sonnets done rather, Herbert just
pack so much information into fourteen lions. That's always the
challenge of the sonnet, how much can you say in
such a small space. What I love about this is
(31:18):
it begins as a traditional metaphor, where God is the
landlord and Herbert is the tenant. But as you read
the poem, it suddenly goes past poetry to become real,
so that now it's not just that God is like
a landlord. God is the landlord, because when he says
in heaven and his manner, I him sword. Now suddenly
(31:42):
it is God himself who is the landlord. At the
same time, when the eye the tenant says that he
sought him in cities, theaters, gardens, parks and courts, this
is no longer just every man tenant. It is George Herbert, him,
the man who thought God was going to call him
(32:02):
to the city's theaters, gardens, parks and courts, but who
instead was sent out to the little town of Beverton.
But here God goes him one better. He seeks God
in these places, these high society London places, but he
doesn't find him there. But guess what, Melanie, He doesn't
find the landlord in Beverton, in a small poor area,
(32:28):
he finds him crucified amongst thieves and murderers. So we
think George Herbert humbled himself in following the calling God
gave him. But think how much more God humbled himself
that he came down not only to live as one
(32:48):
of his tenants, but to actually die that terrible death
in the Pomembrant. On either side of the cross were
thieves and murderers on either side of the cross. So
this is a poem that has a metaphor, and then
it sort of transcends the metaphor to tell us that
God isn't just like a landlord. God is a landlord,
(33:11):
but he is one who came and dwelt among us
and gave all to buy that new lease for us
to move from law to grace. It's a lot there
in that fourteen line poem. Milly.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yes, it seems like a lot of his poetry is
quite short, but yet he says a lot about, in
this case, the power of prayer.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I do as I'm one who thinks most novels, in
most movies are longer than they need to be. I
like the power of Herbert to condense things to their
essence and give them to us instead of going on
and on and on. Even Milton goes on and on.
Sometimes that could have been a lot shorter epic.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Well, I wonder if that was kind of an outlet
for him, as you know, he had to write all
these long sermons. But then he had some you know,
feelings about some of this, you know.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
His That's a good point and an interesting one. And
in some ways, Herbert's poems are his journal entries or
his diary, but like I said, at the same time,
they're very personal. They transcend the personal to talk about
again what it means to be a Christian serving the
God of the universe. So you could call it his blog.
(34:32):
And as far as Herbert knew, a lot of these
poems might not have been read. Thank god, he had
some friends to help him and get it published, to
share these poems with people, which, like I said, C. S.
Lewis loved to read them again and again, and they
helped him in his sense of ministry.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Well, another one of his poems that you talk about
in your article is one that's called Prayer one, and
he talked about dealing with prayer, and that's kind of interesting.
Did he have a prayer too?
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, every song he would write a number of poems
with the same title, and that's why some of the
poems the editors later put in a one or a
two in parentheses to distinguish them. He does that.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
So he also talks about wrestling with the Gospel. And
he has one that is called Easter Wings and it's
in a specific shape too. Can you tell us about it?
Speaker 2 (35:31):
But let's jump to that, because Easter Wings is wonderful.
A shaped poem means that the way the poem is
laid out on the page, it actually looks like something.
So there's two stanzas to this poem, and if you
put them on their side, they look like the wings
of a bird. Because what he does is he's got
(35:52):
a long line, and the line keeps getting shorter and
shorter and shorter till it's really short, and then it
starts to expand. And what Herbert did is by centering
each of the lines, they literally get shorter and shorter
to there's this tiny little line, and then it gets
bigger and bigger. So the poem looks like the easter wings.
(36:14):
The story we think of, what is it Isaiah? Is
it Isaiah? Forty? We will be lifted up on wings
like eagles. It's forty or forty one that we will
be lifted up, and that wonder But it's also, of
course the lifting up of the resurrection, when Jesus rises
up on easter wings. So this poem is amazing. Let me,
(36:34):
let me, let me read. There's just two stanzas to it,
and they both basically mean the same thing. Just more intensely,
Lord who createth man in wealth and store, Though foolishly
he lost the same, decaying more and more till he
became most poor with the Oh, let me rise as
(36:57):
larks harmoniously and say this day thy victories. Then shall
the fall further the flight in me. Okay, here's the second.
My tender age and sorrow did begin, and still with
sickness and shame. Thou didst so punish sin that I
(37:17):
became most thin with thee. Let me combine and feel
this day thy victory. For if I imp my wing
on thine affliction shall advance the flight in me. Now,
the difference between Stanza one and Stanza two is that
Stanza one is general, it's about man mankind, whereas Stanza
(37:41):
iiO is personal. It is the eye. It is George Herbert.
So we move from the general to the specific, from
all Christians to a specific Christian named Herbert, who's wrestling
with the Gospel and what he's talking about. Again, Lord
who createst man in wealth and store. Remember, we were
created good in Eden. We had all things God walked
(38:06):
in our midst. Though foolishly he lost the same, because
we ate of the forbidden fruit. We lost that position
that God had given us in Genesis. And what happened Literally,
we started to thin out, so ten syllables, eight syllables, six, four,
all the way down to two syllables. So foolishly he
(38:29):
lost the same, decaying more and more till he became
most poor. So this is what happened to us in Adam.
We decayed more and more. Sinning is thinning, right, We
less and less until there's almost nothing most poor. But
then the next line says, with THEE, so here we man,
(38:51):
we have become most poor. But then God stoops and
joins together with THEE. So it's so powerful, and we
see it in the poem. God has made himself so
small that he can now allie with us. He has
taken on Now he doesn't take on our sin, but
(39:13):
he takes on everything else, and he becomes most poor.
But with THEE. Now the two of us are connected,
and now we can move. Remember Remember what Paul says, Melanie,
let me share in Christ's crucifixion, so that I may
share also in his resurrection. That's literally what's happening in
this poe. With THEE. Oh, let me rise as Lark's harmonic.
(39:36):
So I'm about to soar and sing this day thy victories.
We're singing the victory of Christ on Easter. This is
an Easter poem. But because Christ has allied himself with us,
we are singing our own victory over death. Because He
has met us at the lowest point, grabbed a hold
of us, and took us up. Then shall the fall
(39:58):
further the flight in me. One of my favorite Latin
phrases is felix kopa. Felix means happy, as in felicity,
and kupa as inculpable, means guilt. So felix gupa means
happy guilt. Now what does that mean. It's a reference
to the fall of man. How can the fall of
(40:18):
man be a happy guilt? That's terrible? Well, it's only
terrible in and of itself, But when you view it
from God's perspective, it's a happy guilt because the fall
of man led to a greater act of love, the incarnation,
when God took on our flesh and became man. Now
(40:40):
what do we call the day Jesus was crucified Good Friday?
Have we lost our mind? The single worst day in
human history? We call it Good well. In and of itself,
It's not good, but it is good because it leads
to the victory of Easter Sunday. That's what this poem
is about. It's about so much more right. So then
shall the fall, Because I found well, I can soar
(41:01):
even higher by tying myself to Christ and going on.
So it becomes a fortunate fall. As crazy as that sounds,
that himself, my tender age and sorrow, did begin, and
still with sickness and shame, now did so punishin that
I became most thin. So like Adam, I myself have
wasted away my gifts. I've not obeyed you until I've
(41:23):
become most thin. But then, once again with THEE. Just
as Christ allies himself with fallen man, he allies himself
personally with fallen George Herbert with THEE. Let me combined,
Let me join with you. Let me become the second
atom as you are the second atom, and feel this
day Easter thy victory. For if I imp my wing
(41:47):
on thine, that means when you graft feathers onto other feathers.
So I'm gonna graft my wing, which is broken, onto
your wing, the wing of Easter. And then affliction shall
advance the flight in me. Not only the Christian, but
George Herbert shall be able to soar higher because of
(42:12):
his affliction. I mean, that's an entire sermon in about
twenty lines. I mean, it's unbelievable the depth of this.
And again, if you get a copy, and by the way,
if you just go online, you can read George Herbert
for free. But get a book. It's not very expensive,
but you can find some of these. All of these
poems can be found online free. Just type in George
(42:34):
Herbert Easter Wings text and you'll find it. But again,
it is about that incredible mystery of how God not
only became man but allowed us to resurrect with him
and join in his victory.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Now I wish, I definitely think that our listeners need
to go look for this poem, easter Wings, because it
is so unusual looking. It's from these long sentences into
just like two words. And so why do you think
he particularly decided to put this poem and make it
a shaped poem.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Well, because he wanted to basically appeal to the eye
and the ear at the same time. So we experience
the fall and the rise by listening to it, and
by understanding the biblical story, but by seeing it, I
think it helps us to participate in the movement or
(43:33):
the motion that you must descend before you can ascend, right,
And that's really the metaphor. Remember what it says, though
he was found in very nature God, you did not
consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied
himself and took on the form of a servant Jess
Philippians too, God goes down down Jesus until even death
(43:54):
on a cross, I mean, the absolute. But then it says,
therefore the Lord has exalted him and given him a
name that is above every name, that the name of Jesus.
And then so Philippians too, goes down, down, down, down, down,
and at the very bottom it says therefore, and then
it moves up until he is the name of which
every inge will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus
(44:16):
Christ's Lord, to the glory of God the Father. It's
that movement, and we participate in it visually by seeing
it as we do by hearing it.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Well, I'm going to talk about one last poem with you,
and that must be like his prayer one in prayer too,
because this is called love three.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
I love three. And by the way, this has been
set to music. I can't remember who did it, but
I heard somebody at my university sing this poem and
it was just beautiful. And it's a great way to end, Melanie,
because the collar is a dialogue between Herbert and God,
and he's very frustrated back and forth. This is a
dialogue too, but it's a dialogue at which, you know, Melanie,
(45:00):
it's hard for us to accept grace. Can I be
really worthy? And of course the point is grace. We're
not worthy? Right? But can God really love me so much?
Remember God is not just just letting us go to heaven.
God wants us to be where he is in heaven.
This is amazing, love, Melanie. Right, many of us would
(45:20):
be willing to send money to people that are living
in a poor shack. How many of us want to
become poor ourselves and live alongside them. This is amazing
that God wants to be with us. And so what
we've got is a dialogue and it's written with long
a long line that's ten syllables long, followed by a
(45:41):
short line that's six syllables, and it gives us that
give and take, back and forth, swelling out and then
pulling back in fear, moving towards God, and then afraid
and will work our way through it. Love, which is
ultimately God Christ. Love bade me welcome, Come in, George.
(46:02):
Yet my soul drew back, guilty of dust and sin.
We're not only guilty of sin, We're guilty of the
fact that we're mortal creatures, ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
How can I come into the presence of God? I
draw back in fear, guilty of dust and sin. And
of course the reason we're dust is because we die,
(46:23):
which is because of adam sin. So it's all part
of sin. But quick eyed Love, observing me gross slack, see,
I got short and scared from my first entrance in,
drew nearer to me, sweetly, questioning if I lacked anything, Come,
my son, what's wrong? Why won't you come? I've invited
(46:45):
you in. What do you want a guest? I answered,
worthy to be here? Love said you shall be He
I the unkind, ungrateful, Oh, my dear, I cannot look
on thee. Love took my hand and smiling did reply,
(47:06):
who made the eyes? But I truth, Lord? But I
have marred. Then let my shame go where it doth deserve.
And know you not, says Love, who bore the blame,
my dear, Then I will serve. You must sit down,
says Love, and taste my meat. So I did sit
(47:31):
and eat. You know, it's weird, Melanie. Some people think
that they're too good for God, and they become prideful.
But some people think they're too bad for God. But
that's what grace is all about. God wants us. You know,
I go to purplace. You know, let not your hearts
be troubled. Right, believe in God. Believe also in me. Right,
(47:52):
I go to prepare a place for you. And if
I do that, I will come back and take you
so that you can be with me. And Melanie, you
might have heard a servant about how at the time
of Jesus, what the Jews would do is, if I'm
a bridegroom, I'm supposed to go and build a home.
Then I go and get my bride and bring her
(48:13):
with me. So it's a beautiful, beautiful marriage image that
Jesus is using. It's John chapter fourteen, the Upper Room discourse.
But anyway, here it goes back and forth. Now, God
has to haggle with Herbert and say, no, no, listen, okay,
yes you deserve it, but I bore the blame. I
bore the blame for you. I have made you worthy.
(48:35):
And now I will sit and I will give you
of the banquet. And finally he gives up and says,
so I did sit and eat right. So again, the
Christian life is a life of dialogue, and if we're
(48:55):
open and speak, God will answer, usually in the still
small voice, slowly nudging us in a certain direction. And again,
in some ways we've all had a dialogue like this.
It's just not so beautifully put in this wonderful poetry,
but as we read it, we go through that same dialogue,
(49:15):
so that Jesus has to assure us, yes, I love you,
I died for you, I have imputed to you my righteousness.
Now come and let me feed you. Belove it. Well.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
I really appreciate you taking us through all of his work,
because I was not familiar with his poetry. And just
so our listeners know, if you go up and do
some research on him, he did not live to be
very old. He died when he was thirty nine years old.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
I know, very very sad and he died probably of tuberculosis,
as many people did back then. But thank God he
wrote these poems and and you know, left them as
a legacy see to us, and again, get a book
and read it devotionally. Read a poem or two poems
at night, think about them, wrestle with them. They just
(50:09):
and most of them go through the sacred year. In
other words, there's a poem about almost every festival or event.
So obviously Easter Wings is about Easter, and he's got
stuff that's got to do with all the different parts
of the sacred calendar, which Anglicans are still very high
church as they go through the sacred year. And so
(50:32):
I would encourage you to read it devotionally. I think
you'll find it worth worth the effort.
Speaker 1 (50:39):
Well, it's interesting to think about somebody's poetry that lived
so long ago. And he died in sixteen thirty three,
And in fact I looked up some biographical information about him,
and he had just recently gotten married back to like
forty years before he died. So he just lived a
short life. But his legacy, I guess, of his work
(51:02):
and his encouragement to Christians lives on all these many
hundreds of years later. It is.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
It's a rich legacy. It is one we want to
be proud of and partake of. You can buy a book,
but you can also read it for free, So do
take the time and English majors like myself and Melody
will be very proud of you.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
Will be grateful. Well. Now, on a fun note, at
your house, lou, what do you guys have for Easter
luncher dinners? Do you have some of that?
Speaker 2 (51:30):
Why? Gosh, Park, Actually, I'm kind of a big chicken eater.
Sometimes we do a turkey again, but we're more likely
to do either a ham or a chicken.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Well, thank you so much for being on the Postmodern
Realities podcast again.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Thanks for having me on again. It was great.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
You've been listening to episode four hundred and forty nine
of the post Modern Realities Podcast. Today's guest was doctor
Lewis Marcos. He has written an online feature article for
the Christian Research Journal. His article is called George Herbert's
Devotional Poetry, An Apologist's Guide to God's Call, Prayer and
(52:10):
Gospel Transformation. You can read it for free at equip
dot org.
Speaker 3 (52:14):
You won't want to miss out on subscribing to the
other podcasts from the Christian Research Institute, we have the
Bible answer Man podcast, which is published Monday through Friday,
with the best of the week on Saturday. It's hosted
by CRI President Hank Handigraph and is available wherever you
get your favorite podcasts. In addition, Hank has a podcast
(52:37):
called Hank Unplugged. Hank takes you out of the studio
and into his study to engage in free flowing, essential
Christian conversations on critical issues with some of the most interesting,
informative and inspirational people on the planet, and you won't
want to miss out on the brand new podcast from
(52:57):
the Christian Research Journal. Research Journal Reads presents audio versions
of Christian Research Journal articles. It was a print incarnation
of almost forty five years. It's now on the web
as you know, with new articles every single week, so
you won't want to.
Speaker 1 (53:14):
Miss these audio articles of some
Speaker 3 (53:16):
Of our most popular and most accessed articles on our
website equip dot org.
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