Postmodern Realities Podcast Episode 445: How the Church Can Address the Crisis of Identity and Belief Among Gen Z Women

This Postmodern Realities episode is a conversation with JOURNAL author Lisa Cooper about her article, “How the Church Can Address the Crisis of Identity and Belief Among Gen Z Women”. https://www.equip.org/articles/how-the-church-can-address-the-crisis-of-identity-and-belief-among-gen-z-women/

Related articles and podcasts by this author:Episode 427 Grief, Loneliness, Friendship, and Robots: How Apple TV+’s ‘Sunny’ Shows Us About Human Nature“Grief, Loneliness, Friendship, and Robots: How Apple TV+’s Sunny Shows Us About Human Nature“. Episode 411: The Antidote To FOMO (And FOBO)The Antidote To FOMO (And FOBO)Episode 373 A Christian Response to Scrolling and Doomscrolling“A Christian Response to Scrolling and Doomscrolling“Episode 359 The Loneliness Crisis In America And How The Church Can HelpThe Loneliness Crisis in America and How the Church Can Help 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:20):
Hi everyone, Thank you for tuning in to the Postmodern
Realities podcast, brought to you by the Christian Research Institute
and the Christian Research Journal. I'm Melanie Cogdill, Managing editor
of the Christian Research Journal. It's May twenty five and
you are listening to episode four hundred and forty five,
which is a conversation about spirituality among gen Zers and

(00:45):
specifically gen Z women. On this episode, I'm joined by
Lisa Cooper, who is a senior copywriter and marketing specialist
at paravel Insights and a freelance writer with Barna. Lisa
has a master's degree in religion from the American Lutheran
Theological Seminary and she serves as an adjunct chaplain at

(01:07):
Chesterton House at Cornell University. Lisa has written an online
feature article for the Christian Research Journal. Her article is
called how the Church can Address the Crisis of Identity
and Belief among gen Z Women. You can read her
article for free at equipped dot org. That's equip dot org. Lisa,

(01:29):
it's good to have you back on the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Well, there's been a lot in the news about gen
Z and specifically how they are responding to religion or
leaving religion, and just kind of the religious habits of
gen Z. And so I remember when a long time
ago we were talking about the millennials, but now the
millennials in their early forties, so now we're talking about

(01:56):
gen Z. I'm not really sure. Since you kind of
delve into this for your work, you might be able
to tell me what you call the generation below gen Z?
Is that?

Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yes, that's Generation Alpha?

Speaker 1 (02:09):
Oh, generation Alpha they're calling it right now. I want
to talk a little bit about gen Z because those
kids are now into their twenties. There's some still in
their teens, but some are even in their late twenties.
So when we talk about generations, how do you define
gen Z? And just what I was saying, what are
the actual ages? And maybe you know what years does

(02:29):
that include of when they were born.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
I think that this is a great place to start,
because there there are a variety of definitions of gen
Z depending on what sources you're looking at, So it
does actually kind of matter if you're doing statistics or
looking at gen Z. Some people define it between ninety
six and twenty ten, and others a little bit later,

(02:56):
ninety seven to twenty twelve, and then even still we
have ninety nine to twenty fifteen. So essentially we're looking
at like an age range between ten and twenty nine,
and those ages or dates or whatever will be even
more solidified as social scientists see how things kind of

(03:16):
progress over time. With gen Alpha now coming up, we'll
see kind of the differences between the upper end of
gen alpha and the lower end of Gen Z. So
it'll be interesting to see exactly how that shakes out.
But right now, for all of the research that I
did for this, it was essentially mid to late nineteen

(03:37):
nineties to early to mid twenty tens birth dates.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, so I have kids that fall into the gen Z,
even with the different shifting, it looks like that they're
right in them. You know, they're in the same generation
gen Z. And so what are some like characteristics of
Gen Z, what are some differentiating facts? Is interesting. I
think a few years ago I saw in the New
York Times that they did a kind of a poll

(04:07):
of just I think it was like a thousand kids
in that generation, just asked them a variety of different questions,
including religion, and kind of came up with a snapshot
of that generation, like, what is a character what are
some key characteristics about them that makes them different from
other generations. And when we talk about other generations, that

(04:28):
would include millennials, gen X boomers. So in your research,
what kind of sets them apart and what are their characteristics?

Speaker 2 (04:38):
So gen Z one of the main differentiating factors between
gen Z and millennials, who are the ones slightly older
than them. While millennials like me, I'm kind of smack
dab in the middle of the millennial generation. I grew
up with a transition to using technology, so it wasn't
until I was a little bit older that I started

(05:00):
really using technology in my daily life. But gen Z
has grown up with technology, and that technology has been
high speed Wi Fi, social media, on demand entertainment, and communication.
So their access to technology has been so pervasive and fast.

(05:23):
That's been one of the key differentiating factors. But they've
also grown up with constant you know. On the flip
side of this, it also means that there's constant news updates,
influencers who are around the globe who are giving them
all kinds of information at all times of day. The

(05:45):
socio political factors tend to be a huge marker when
it comes to generational divides as well. So when you
have millennials, you think of like the main socio political
event that happened when we tend when we were younger
was nine to eleven and I was eleven when nine

(06:05):
to eleven happened. A lot of Gen Z folks will
look back on their lives and say, I was, you
know whatever age when Donald Trump was elected to his
first presidential term, and so that tends to be one
of the markers that people point at as well, the
kind of social unbreast of black lives matter, that whole

(06:25):
era of COVID as well.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
Before you go any further too, you've used some terms.
I think a lot of people listening to this podcast
probably fall in the Gen X boomer, maybe some millennials
kind of age group. So some of those older generation
people might not know what you mean by influencers. What's
an influencer, Oh, great question.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
Influencers are the people who are on social media who
cultivate a following of people simply based on their social
media posts. So it could be some who does makeup
tutorials or possibly has a YouTube channel where they do

(07:08):
deep dives into bizarre I don't know, mythological creatures. I
don't know. They can do all kinds of different weird things,
but basically it means that they are people who have
such a huge following that brands or different companies would
be willing to pay them for their time or their influence,

(07:28):
and oftentimes that means brand deals. Like if you ever
watch a YouTube video and you see this is sponsored
by whoever, that's because these people are influencing their audience
to purchase products.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
Now are these influencers? I guess people in the older
generations would think, Okay, they're a medical professional or they
have a degree in something. Does it mean that they're
like a well known actor, politician or thinker or can
you define like who would be just having a following?

Speaker 2 (08:02):
It totally depends on the platform. With things like TikTok,
there are quite a few like I'm thinking off the
top of my head, but there are quite a few
of like medical professionals and dermatologists or others like that
on those kind of short form platforms, and certainly I'm

(08:23):
sure you could find those people on YouTube as well.
The general thing is that most of the people who
are influencers do not have those kind of credentials, and
they don't need them necessarily to gain a following. So
it can be pretty difficult to discern, especially at younger ages,

(08:46):
what's true, what's coming from an authority figure who can
speak authoritatively on a subject. But yeah, influencers don't tend
to be people in politics or religion or any of
those things. They tend to be just random people who
have set up a platform for themselves.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah, that's something that's been unique. I think about social
media so much has changed since the advent of the
iPhone in twenty oh seven because so many people who
are quote unquote influencers are just like regular people who
just had a niche hobby or interest. Then they started,
you know, blogging, well blogging back in the day, but vlogging,

(09:30):
and then suddenly they've grown to this big kind of
following where they're actually making a living out of it,
talking about whatever it is.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
If maybe that.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
It's coupon cutting, or it could be video game influencers.
So many of those, there's so many play video games
and make millions of dollars from people literally just going
onto Twitch or YouTube to watch them, not even to
play it with them, just watch them play it.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
Yes, Yeah, and I think a lot of that comes
from it's kind of a weird social phenomenon that that
is the case. I've seen my kids watch people play
video games, and growing up, I used to watch my
brother play video games because he was much better at
it than I was. But there was something about, you know,
you're in the room with someone and you can have

(10:17):
a conversation with them as they as they play the
video games. It's really simulated on the Internet. It's kind
of going for these kind of personal connections that we
would otherwise have in person, but fabricating that for the
Internet is I think what they're going for there. It's
very odd. It's odd for me as a millennial at least.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yeah. So besides being digital natives, what else is like
very different about gen Z compared to maybe even older
generations older than millennials like Gen Z or maybe Boomers.
I don't know if boomers are like their great grandparents
or their grandparents, Like, how are there you know, experiences

(10:59):
as a generation very different? Yes.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
So some of the other really interesting things that set
Gen Z apart is that they are the most diverse
ethnically generation, so as as more and more people have
kids in America. It's we're just generally becoming more socially,
you know, diverse. Then because of that, there's also this

(11:26):
flexibility interest in being relevant and authentic. And interestingly enough,
gen Z is very, very like statistically committed to all
of these kind of issues like climate change and are
very statistically interested in social justice, and they are a

(11:51):
lot of people call them the activist generation. They have
strong perspectives on all of the kind of socio political
issues of the day. They tend to be more interested
in self expression and exploration. But at the same time,
they tend to be the most anxious, the most depressed,

(12:11):
and the most mentally ill of all of the generations.
So if you look at statistics about how gen Z
kind of stacks up against older generations in terms of
these kind of mental health issues, they are just off
the charts comparatively, and they generally have a pretty poor

(12:32):
outlook on life. They're not super excited about the future.
And I don't know that I blame them having grown
up in like with some of your most formative years
during the COVID pandemic. I think I don't really blame
them for being affected by that so yeah, those are

(12:53):
kind of the main key factors. And I mean, we'll
get into some more of this as we go on,
but I'm interested in how perceives themselves to be anxious
to press mentally ill more so than other generations.

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(13:51):
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And back to my conversation about the gen Z generation

(14:58):
with Lisa Cooper. You're just talking about different characteristics about
the gen Z, you know, generation, but in this particular
article you're focusing on women in that generation and you
note that they're in a crisis of self. What does

(15:18):
that mean because a lot of statistics are kind of
fascinating regarding gen Z women.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yes, so I think broadly speaking, gen Z is facing
the loneliness crisis. I've been on this podcast before to
talk about that, so you can look that up. I
don't remember what episode number that is, the Loneliness crisis.
But gen Z in particular, especially the women, are focusing
or are facing a crisis of identity. A lot of

(15:48):
them are, you know, falling into the LGBTQ plus camp.
A Gallop survey recently said that nearly thirty percent of
gen Z women identify as LGBTQ. So that's compared to
ten point six percent of gen Z men, and those
are still the highest numbers of anybody. So I think

(16:11):
it was something like twenty eight point something percent of
gen Z women. That's a huge number and a huge,
huge jump from previous generations. And it's not just I
think it can be easy to just kind of only
say that's that's the one key factor that people feeling,
this need for sexual expression or whatever is the main

(16:34):
issue when it comes to identity, but it's kind of
rooted I think even deeper than that for gen Z women.
Jonathan Heit wrote this book called The Anxious Generation and
I and it's become very popular. I think I've even
talked about it on here with You a little bit before.
There are so many different factors that go into why

(16:54):
gen Z women have this bizarre search for authenticity and
self So he makes mention of the fact that in
twenty ten, smartphones added front facing cameras and Facebook acquired
Instagram in twenty twelve, So within the span of two years,

(17:20):
girls who were growing up in this generation were experiencing
what it meant to portray themselves on the internet in
a very accessible and easy way. It used to be,
you know, you had to get a camera and set
things up. It wasn't as easy as snapping selfies in
your bedroom. And so not only were they figuring out

(17:40):
how to portray themselves on the internet for others, but
they were also being criticized by people on the internet,
and not just people that they knew, but strangers as well.
And so this kind of created an environment where gen
Z women have grown up with this blurring of private
and public life, where they're facing critique and judgment from

(18:04):
peers and strangers, and it's created a struggle for authenticity.
So one of the things you'll hear over and over
again in this kind of in this conversation is that
gen Z wants authenticity, They want real relationships, and I
think they've grown up in such a space where because

(18:26):
the Internet can present false information and deception and a
curated life can be on display for other people to see.
Gen Z women have struggled with how do I exist
in the world where all of these things are fake
but still live like the good life that I see

(18:47):
on the Internet. And you know, how can I figure
out who I am beyond just how I portray myself
on the Internet? And that can be hard, especially when
people are aspiring influencers as we talked about earlier, or
anybody can make their living on the Internet, and portraying
your life for millions of people can make you wealthy.

(19:09):
It can be an actual source of income. And so
how do people how do women like portray themselves on
the internet has become a major concern for gen Z women.
But all of this is kind of converged and created
all kinds of anxiety in gen Z women, so especially

(19:30):
young adults. Let's see Barna talks about this in their
Generation Z Volume three report. It talks about how female
gen Z are significantly more likely to report a number
of negative emotions and pressures, including anxiety about important decisions, fear,
of failure, self criticism, and feeling easily overwhelmed. So it's

(19:51):
not just that they're experiencing a crisis of sexuality or
a crisis of meaning or a crisis of purpose. But
it's all of things kind of compounded together, and it's
blurred between what's private and what's public, and all of
these things are mounting pressures as they're coming of age.

(20:12):
It's just kind of a nightmare situation.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
Honestly, I think some older generation folks might be thinking,
help me understand with all of this anxiety, and you know,
sometimes I think they're almost paralyzed about decision making and
so forth. Why in the world would you want to
portray yourself and feel the need to put literally hundreds,
if not a thousand photos of you on the internet,

(20:39):
even if you're just an average high school student or
college student. You're not trying to be an influencer. But
what is a motivator when there's an identity crisis to
want to display oneself so publicly.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
I think it's one way of trying to grapple with
who you are as a person. Gen Z tends to
identify themselves with the things that they like more so
than where they're from, who their family is, any of
those factors, and so if they have an opportunity to
publicly demonstrate the things that they like and what they

(21:14):
align themselves with, you know, politically, socially, economically, whatever, those
things become the differentiating factors for a lot of gen
Z folks. So it's interesting and it seems counterintuitive to

(21:35):
feel like you need to portray yourself publicly in order
to be perceived as who you want to be publicly,
but that doesn't actually have much to say about who
you are internally. And I think that's where the disconnect is,
and that's why people are struggling so much, because they
don't have that internal validation that I think, you know, Christianity,

(21:57):
since this is you know, an apologetics paper and a
an apologetics ministry, Christianity does that. It starts from the
internal validation of who we are in christ and then
works outward.

Speaker 1 (22:11):
And I do want to ask you about that because
we have talked on these related topics. You mentioned loneliness,
and of course to our listeners, we do in the
show notes link to Lisa's other work that she's done
for us. You know, we've talked about what does Christianity
offer and what is the Church like for those people

(22:32):
in terms of having a different vision for what they
perceive is their entirety of existence and identity. We're talking
about that how big that is versus how their particular generation.
I mean, how does it contrast a Christian view, the
worldview that we have as Christians and life in the
church as you if you are a Christian, you are

(22:54):
connected to the church. You're a part of christ Church.
And so how is that a better vision of what
it's like to have your identity shaped and meaning versus
what gen Z thinks that social media or their own
selves is offering. In terms of trying to figure that out.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, gen Z, women want an identity that's true to
themselves almost to a fault, right, Like, they want to
be affirmed in everything that they feel they are, and
in some ways they want it to stand up against
competing influences around them so that they are unique and

(23:34):
desirable to others. However, identity as Christians comes from outside
of us. Christianity offers identity grounded in God himself. You know,
we are made in God's image, meaning we uniquely reflect

(23:54):
God and his character, and we're also called to steward
the world around us. So we're in his image. We
are creative, right, we are created to be creative, and
as we steward things around us, we're called to be
caring and fulfill that call to steward the things here

(24:15):
on earth. And obviously we're not going to do that
perfectly in the church. Obviously we're not going to do
that perfectly in our own personal lives. But Scripture gives
us a vision that our identity is when we place
our faith in Jesus. Of course, if anyone is in Christ,
he is a new creation. That's what First Corinthian says.
So the old has passed away, the new has come.

(24:40):
We are created in Christ Jesus for good works, says Ephaesians.
So all that we do and all that we are
as Christians is rooted in who God is and his character,
and that is what gives us motivation then to go
serve others and to participate in the world in a
meaningful way. Has it flipped backwards, which is I need

(25:02):
to come up with something internal to me and then
self actualize, and then I will receive an identity that
is meaningful in the world. But it is ultimately not
how it works. You know, if you are trying to

(25:22):
self actualize and trying to come from within create your identity,
it's always going to be flawed and it may not
actually serve your neighbor well at all, like the things
that you may be demanding too much of other people's
time or there are a million ways that this could
not go well. And I think we see that when

(25:43):
there are lots of caricatures I think in the media
of people demanding others respect their bizarre identities that they
choose for themselves. That's not really loving and serving your neighbor.
That's demanding things of your neighbor very bizarre way. So

(26:04):
I think Christianity having an identity rooted in Christ, it
empowers us, like out of the love of Christ and
out of the forgiveness that we receive from Him, it
empowers us to serve others in a way that's not
just this performative thing that we see on the internet.
So often we're not just posting memes about foreign wars

(26:24):
and social justice. We're actually doing things in the church
hopefully that loves and serves our neighbor in our communities.
And so Christianity ultimately has a better vision for identity
than what gen Z has sort of come up with,
which is this self proclamation of identity.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
So one of the things that I've read in the
news in terms of different research is that there's an
interesting shift going on in this particular generation between men
and women. It seems that gen Z men are becoming
more politically conservative and also seeking out spirituality, which is interesting.

(27:09):
And on the flip side, gen Z women are leading
the church. If they grew up in an evangelical home,
they're deconverting and they're becoming quite progressive and embracing a
lot of progressive ideals like being pro choice and being
pro LGBTQ. You mentioned those statistics about how they are
identifying in terms of sexual preferences, and this is very

(27:33):
fascinating because what does this mean for gen Z women.
The other thing I've seen too is gen Z women
are more educated than women in the past as well.
So what does this divide between the men and the
women say about this generation.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
I am concerned. I'm concerned that this might be a problem.
It's likely going to result in fewer marriages. I think
we've already seen pretty bad trends when it comes to
marriage rates in the United States, and certainly the fact

(28:08):
that more kids are now born out of wedlock than
in wedlock in America. That's not good and this doesn't
bode very well in my opinion. But I think it's
going to cause a lot of difficulty if men want
to raise their kids in the faith. Historically, we've had
some pretty good indication that if a husband is faithful

(28:31):
in church attendance, the kids tend to go to church
as well. But it's even better when husbands and wives
go together and raise their kids in the faith. That
tends to lead to more retention in terms of faith
for the children. But I do foresee this causing lots
of issues in if the Christian men gen Z men

(28:55):
end up marrying the non Christian gen Z women, I
think it's going to lead to a lot of discontentment
and possibly tension in relationships. And I think women are
having a harder time differentiating where the church believes, what
is historically Christian and accurate to what the Bible teaches,

(29:18):
and what has been popularized in pop culture, news media
hot button takes on TikTok, where Christianity has sort of
been lumped in with this political stuff that we see publicly,
and I think the perspective that gen Z women have

(29:44):
toward men who are perceived to be more conservative or
more Christian, it generally is pretty negative and I think
it will likely result in fewer relationships for them. And
I don't know if that will change, you know, young
women's minds. Maybe in the future, if they will come around,

(30:06):
because they eventually might want to have kids and get
married and settle down, But it doesn't particularly bode well
for the future at this moment.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Is there some reason why there's such a divide, like
even an interest in religion between gen Z women and men.
Have you seen in research what might be causing men
to be they're kind of going in opposite directions And
you did say it's a problem, But what is causing

(30:38):
gen Z men to think about religious things versus gen
Z women to reject them altogether?

Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yeah, it's interesting. I think gen Z men from what
I've seen, and I haven't done a ton of research
on this, but there has been this huge void in structure,
I think, and the church, especially traditional church bodies, have
offered a structure and a purpose in a way that

(31:09):
gen Z men are really looking for and I think
with the rise of figures like Jordan Peterson and others
who are calling for responsibility in younger generations and just
to see how how much that's actually impacted young men
where they want a little bit of that pushback. They want, no,

(31:30):
you can do better, You can take responsibility for your
life and make changes that you want to see in
your own life. I think the Church has kind of
offered a positive vision for manhood in a way that
the culture has not at this particular moment. And that's
why I assume men are trending toward the Church. And

(31:51):
I think they've grown up in a situation where, you know,
gender lines have been blurred a lot. And when the
Church says no, it's good, it's actually okay, and it's
good to be a man and it's good and it's
actually okay to be a woman and to embrace how
God has made us different. I think that is really appealing,

(32:14):
at least in the gen z men that I know personally.
That seems to be a very big selling point, you know,
for the church. But I think women, compared to this,
they see a radical kind of opposite view, which is
instead of this is adding structure to my life and
this is a beneficial historical thing that I can participate in.

(32:35):
They see the church as being this patriarchal or sexist
force that's you know, existed to oppress women over the years,
and like I said, I think they identify church with
political conservatism, and overall, women in gen Z tend to
see themselves as more feminist or liberal like statistically than

(32:56):
any other differentiating kind of identifier. There tends to be
the frustration with women's roles in the church and strong
stances against abortion and IVF and how they see women
being you know, a lot of the things that I
read were from a more liberal perspective complaining about the church,

(33:19):
but it was the perspective is that they're just done
with debating where women should fit in the family, and
so they're just kind of over religious life, you know.
And so I think those are the main reasons why
more liberal women tend to say that they don't want

(33:39):
to participate in the church. What I've seen play out
is really that gen Z women who have left the
church do so because they want to be affirmed in
whatever sin they want to participate in, and if the
church doesn't affirm that they don't want it, and unfortunately,

(34:01):
I think that's the case with a lot of people,
not just women and not just gen Z. But when
you have the Law of God that is eternal and wise,
and it says it has certain prohibitions and certain exhortations,
you know, we can't bend that to make gen Z

(34:25):
women feel better and affirm everything that they're doing. So yeah,
I think in college ministry specifically, as I've worked over
the years I've been on campus at Cornell for about
seven years now, in different capacities, doing different kinds of ministry,
it is often the people that want to participate in

(34:48):
whatever pets in they have without any pushback.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
So I think perhaps given what you've said, I think
some of the maybe thought of, like how do we
reach these women? There's maybe a thought of do we
have to soften some of the historic positions of Christianity
Because one of the things that you mentioned I thought
that was interesting was that thirty percent of or close

(35:16):
to thirty percent of gen Z women identify in the
queer lane and they are definitely, you know, that's something
important to them. These issues of you know, kind of
exploring sexuality, not you know, anything quote unquote traditional and
they are very kind of outspoken in their views, and

(35:40):
they are protesting things that have happened in terms of
less access to abortion now and other just other various
issues that don't line up with you know, Christian theology,
historic Christian orthodoxy theologically. So, you know, how do we

(36:00):
kind of reach them because some of them grew up
in the church, as I noted that some of them
are quote what we call deconverting from their what they
perceived to be a conservative evangelical upbringing to now they're
more enlightened. Well, I'm trying to do that. I'm thinking
of some of even some of their icons. Like I
didn't know who Chappelle Roan was, and she was nowminated

(36:23):
for all these Grammys, and I only listened to half
of one song. I was like, wow, No, But then
I didn't know she grew up in this very conservative
Christian kind of like fundamentalist group almost that's where her
whole family is. And she's now become an icon of
the queer community.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Yeah. Yes, And I think a lot of people will
suggest and quite a few of the articles that I read,
even from Christian sources, said, you know, they kind of
came from the perspective of, well, we can just not
talk about those things, or we can just compromise and

(37:00):
you know, ignore some of these issues. I think the
problem with that is, well, there are numerous problems. Right.
We can't compromise what the scriptures say because scripture is
true and it's God's word, and if God says stuff,
we should care about that. And that's kind of an

(37:24):
understatement obviously. I think we don't need to compromise historic
Orthodox teachings in order to reach gen Z women or
gen Z men for that matter. I think one of
the main ways that we can help gen Z through
some of these more hot button issues or like to

(37:46):
demonstrate that we are not like just hateful, dismissive, uncaring
or uncritical, like not critical thinkers about these issues use
is to start by like actually cultivating relationships with these
people individually and caring for them individually. And then as

(38:12):
time goes on, it's possible to correct some of these
misunderstandings that gen Z has about Christianity and what we
teach and believe. For example, right, one of the articles
that I read talked all about how Christianity oppresses women
and has a history of doing all this horrible stuff

(38:34):
to women, and the fact that they're not allowed to
be pastors is this horribly misogynistic thing. But the reality is,
and I know that there are a multitude of perspectives
probably of the listeners to this podcast on that point,
but Christianity was radically accepting of women in terms of

(38:56):
the culture when Scripture was written. It is. Yeah, and
I could go on a whole long rant about what
it means to like to have women in positions of
authority in the church and whatever. Obviously I'm coming from
a confessional Lutheran perspective, so we like the church that

(39:18):
I'm in does not ordain women to the pastoral office.
And I'm sure that there are you know, Conservative Presbyterians
and Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox that listen to this
podcast as well that would identify with that belief. But
now I think there's such a huge push from more
liberal leaning or more mainline churches to say, well, we

(39:41):
just we'll just do whatever and that will make more
gen Z women come. And I just don't think that
that's the right course of action. I think holding the
line in what we believe, but doing so in a
way that is caring and loving is the way to go.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
So what are some particular ways that the church can
be a place that really demonstrates that they offer what
gen Z women want and need as well? Like, how
do we bridge that gap because they're coming with this
posture like you just said of you know, the church

(40:19):
is so narrow minded that they don't have a place for women.
How do we reach out towards them and engage them?

Speaker 2 (40:26):
Yeah, I think I consistently go back to that personal
relationships are the best way to actually engage with gen Z.
There are numerous statistics that show that they prefer in
person relationships, even though they often choose to have digital

(40:47):
relationships instead, they prefer those in person relationships. And in
my own experience doing college ministry, it has been that
some of these women don't have anyone who checks in
with them during the week. They have no one who
asks them how their test went or anything like that.

(41:07):
So if we can step into those roles, as you know,
you and I are, I would consider myself an older
woman at this point because I'm not this youngest generation.
You know, older women can come alongside younger women and
pour into their lives and care about them. But I

(41:28):
think what we really need to communicate is that the
Church offers solutions to the particular needs and desires of
gen Z women. And that is just what I'm trying
to say, is like they are struggling with these internal
and external pressures. They have changing social influences. There's this

(41:51):
blurring of public and private life, and I think gen
Z women, for example, they desire spirituality. There's this big
push for these spiritual practices that a lot of them
will adopt. And whether it's kind of more self help
flavor or crystals or wicca that's become really popular weirdly,

(42:15):
the Church and Christianity itself can offer an actual understanding,
a true vision of what the world, the universe, and
the creator who loves them are like. And it's not
just self help stuff that they would learn from Christianity,
like they would actually get, you know, forgiveness of their

(42:35):
sins and the law that informs what living the good
life is like. With all of the anxiety that they feel,
Christianity offers peace and purpose that goes beyond just am
I doing the right thing? You know? Will I make

(42:56):
my life the best thing it can be? When we
reckon that God is in control and God is the
one directing our steps. It really does alleviate a lot
of that pressure. I think this idea that gen Z
is so justice oriented and wants what's right and true
and wants to care for, you know, the downcast that

(43:19):
comes from a Christian worldview, Like without a Christian worldview,
people don't see the importance of people who aren't, you know,
downtrodden poor, like that is where that perspective comes from
in the first place. So I think Christianity offers a

(43:42):
path forward for love and service of neighbor that is
not only self serving. That is to say, it's not
something that makes us feel good necessarily that we're doing
those things, but it actually is meant because we're freed
in Christ and we can love and serve our neighbor
to do so, and that actually is a better a

(44:03):
better vision for serving your neighbors. So there's hope in
Christianity that you don't get otherwise. There's not this eternal
perspective that you're gonna get when we see ourselves in
light of God's redemptive story. And those are the things

(44:24):
that I would love to see communicated to gen Z
women that all of these weird feelings and pressures and
concerns and cares that you have, there are actually answers
to those things, and they're not they're not answers that
are just well take it by faith. There are actual,

(44:47):
like legitimate, historical and apologetic arguments that we could go
through that would get you to a place where you
see that this is like actually true, but it's actually
impactful in your real life as well.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
So another thing that some of these various studies that
have been conducted over the years more recently has shown
is that there is an openness to faith in terms
of that generation. Even though there might be less of
them practicing faith, they are open to exploring that. Do

(45:26):
you think that's good news or are they open to
exploring like you said, just about anything. You mentioned crystals
and and wika we did a few years ago, which
talk because because of TikTok things that you know, we're
kind of practices of the seventies, I guess, you know,
tarot cards and crystals have kind of had a big
resurgence among gen Z people.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
Yeah, there, it's interesting. The openness to spirituality in general
is pretty far reaching. Like there there is that certainly
that aspect of being interested or open to all kinds
of like weird new ag kind of practices and stuff.

(46:08):
But at the same time, there have been specific questions
asked of gen Z about Christian faith specifically, so things
like Barna did a gen Z global study of teens,
so it skews younger in terms of the data because
it was gen Z teens at the time and not

(46:30):
just like gen Z adults. But what they found was
that teens were really open to Jesus, the Bible, and
like other Christian features. So you know, I am cautiously
optimistic that there is a move in that direction. That

(46:50):
a lot of these younger gen Z, especially a lot
of them have not grown up in Christian homes or
in homes that practice the faith in a way that
it is historically the case for a lot of older generations.
So they're not going to Sunday school every week, and
they're not going to church every week, and they don't

(47:10):
have you know, prayer groups meeting or Bible studies meeting
during the week or anything like that. They haven't grown
up with a practiced faith around them, and so when
they hear about Christianity, there is this real opportunity where
they're kind of open to hearing about it, and it

(47:30):
sounds like they're open too to looking into it. On
platforms like TikTok, like YouTube, they will look up people
who are talking about these things and just kind of
gather information. So it's quite interesting. I think that there
is there is something good about being open. I'm not

(47:51):
totally opposed to it, but I do think we have
to be careful as we try and step into these
spaces with gen Z youth, young adults, as we're having
these conversations about spiritual things. We have to be very
careful not to make them feel judged. And that seems

(48:16):
to be the key differentiating factor, is that they want
to be open to everything, and if you judge them
for it, they will shut it down immediately and they
won't listen. So if there's a way to cautiously engage
with questions without shutting things down by being too dogmatic
about them in that moment, like dogmatism can come later,

(48:37):
I guess. But yeah, that seems to be the sticking
point for a lot of them.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
I think it's harder for some older generations to kind
of grasp that in some sense because I think some
of the older generations, maybe even their grandparents and boomers,
they just see something as so black and white and
they can get their mind around, in other words, the anxiety.
I've heard that like, well, when we were young, we
just didn't we just sucked it up. We just did

(49:07):
what we had to do, which is not exactly how
gen Z women look at their lives totally. So, as
we've talked about it, what are some practical ways that
we can reach out to them, start spiritual conversations, bring
the gospel to gen Z women especially, you know, as

(49:28):
we think about the Christian apologists, I mean, how can
women who have a passion for apologetics be able to
think about, Okay, how do it's almost like there are
an unreached people group. How do we not necessarily maybe
they've heard the gospel, maybe they haven't. I mean some
of the younger generations might not have heard the gospel.
You know. How should we engage with them so that

(49:49):
they would hear us and not shut us down because
they think we're just too black and white.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
Yes, I think there are a ton of different ways
to do this. So feel free to stop me anytime
if you want to make comments. Do or have other questions,
But there are a lot of different ways. I think
the biggest thing is these real authentic in person relationships.
If you are just befriending someone who's younger than you

(50:18):
in this generation cohort just to evangelize to them, they
will smell that from a mile away. They will know
that that's what you're doing, and they will not be
interested in cultivating any kind of a relationship with you.
But if you can get to a point where you
move beyond knowing their names or surface level things about

(50:39):
them and actually invest in their lives some and care
about them. There's some I can't remember the exact statistic,
but it was a study that was done not too
long ago, and it said something to the effect of
in the course of a week, college students will have

(51:02):
one meaningful conversation or fewer. It can be transformative for
these young people to just have anyone engage them in
a meaningful conversation. And it may be awkward, it may
feel uncomfortable. I think a lot of people turn away
from those kind of relationships because they don't want to

(51:22):
offend people or come across as being weird. But really
just making yourself available especially older women. I think we
have a really unique role to play in this. I mean,
scripture talks about older women teaching younger women kind of
more practical theology things right in Titus, and so I
think that we have a very unique call as older

(51:44):
women to get to know younger women and care about
them and just lay the groundwork for trust. And if
we can do that, then as things come up, as
time goes on, and they see a light that reflects
Christ portrayed to them, then that will be seen as

(52:08):
an authentic Christian belief and not this performative thing that
they might see on the internet. So I think if
we try really hard to just you know, shine the
light of Christ in our lives without being too dogmatic,
and show that we care deeply about people before we

(52:29):
say anything about the Gospel, that sets the groundwork for
them actually being able to hear it. I think one
of the other main things that our culture has done
such a disservice to the younger generations in this way.
But Christianity the way it's portrayed in popular media and
TV shows, online everywhere, it's become such a politicized thing

(52:54):
and a polarizing thing. Gen Z in general, and even
more so with gen Z women. They're not interested in politics,
and they certainly aren't interested in politics mixed with religion,
and so generally speaking, any Christianity that seems like it's
taking a political stand rather than a biblical perspective on something.

(53:20):
You know, if we can differentiate those two things, I
would say, depoliticize whatever you're talking about. It shouldn't be
perceived as being in support of a candidate or a
particular law. But if you can speak from scripture about
scriptural principles, that's the way to go, especially with gen
Z women. At the same time, they are not interested

(53:44):
in fighting. Gen Z women are notoriously not interested in fighting,
especially intellectual fights. I don't think we can debate them
into the church. I do think gen Z men that
is a possibility. You can debate people and really push
their worldview and kind of put pressure on them to

(54:08):
make rational, reasonable decisions, and they respond to that well.
But gen Z women are not interested in that. They
see that as very offensive and not cool. So if
you try to approach them with a hostile or combative attitude,
it will completely shut down any conversation you could possibly have.

(54:30):
So I think in that sort of a situation where
maybe something like that needs to be communicated. Those ground
the groundwork of creating healthy relationships with people before having
hard conversations, I think is the most important thing. But
I think standing firm in the truth should also be

(54:54):
coupled with demonstrating love in our speech and actions. You know,
Paul says in Colossian's for he says, walk in wisdom
toward outsiders, making the best use of your time. Let
your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that
you may know how you ought to answer each person.

(55:14):
So we should live that out. And I think gen
Z is women especially are the ones who really need that.
It's that caring tone that is not combative, that is
going to win them over more so than dogmatic you

(55:35):
are wrong kind of an approach.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
And I think also what you said earlier in the
podcast is gen Z is characterized by what they're interested in.
And I know a lot on this podcast we do
cover a lot of cultural apologetics, and I think some
of the older generations would be like, I don't really
care about that. But the reason why we cover it
is so that you would know about it. Because gen
Z does care about it absolutely, video games, they care

(56:02):
about Marvel, they care about DC, they care about Severance,
they care about just different kinds of like cultural touchstones.
And I've found I don't, you know, necessarily come across
that many gen Z women necessarily that are strangers. But
I know that when I have just because I guess
I have gen Z kids, is if I engage them

(56:23):
in conversation, they're usually surprised because I know something of
what they're interested in. So I just asked them a
little bit more like, oh, okay, why are you into
this anime? Or what do you think about this? And
so knowing about some of those things, I'm not saying
that some of our listeners necessarily have to watch all
of that we do so that you don't have to.

(56:45):
But then you know what the issues are. You know,
you could ask them, well, what do you like about that?
What was what connected you to that pop cultural thing
that you find so interesting? And so I think that
is helpful, and I also think that helps to build bridges.
One other thing is I don't think a lot of
gen Z people really know that many Evangelical Christians, especially

(57:06):
if they haven't grown up in the church, and so
by making that relationship with them. And there's a couple
of gen Z women that I have. They're usually surprised because,
like you said, they expect Christianity to be political. But
when I tell them that's not Christianity's not about politics
at all. I mean, that's what the media is saying
it's about, but that's not what it's about. They're surprised.

(57:28):
And if you spend some time with them and really
cultivate what they're interested in and ask them, some of
those walls will come down where they'll be open to
be like, Okay, I guess I put all Christians in
this box, but maybe not all Christians are in.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
That box exactly. And I think one of the other
kind of an extension of that. As you're cultivating these
relationships and you're taking an interest in their life and
you're you're asking them about things that they're interested in,
gen Z women want to see that you are living
your life in accordance with what you believe, that you're

(58:03):
not a hypocrite. And so if you are just faithful
in how you engage with them and are kind and caring,
and you live a life that demonstrates the kind of
good news that Christianity can offer them. That does make
a huge difference. So I think one of the ways

(58:25):
you can, like a practical thing you could try if
say you go to a church and you know that
there is a young woman in your congregation who might
be on the fringe and might be considering leaving the
faith or whatever, you can invite them to serve with you,
to do something. So across the board, I think we
see over and over again in statistics that gen z

(58:47):
women they're passionate about helping others. A lot of that
ends up whether or not they actually do those things
is very different than whether or not they think it's important,
which is interesting, but there's kind of a disconnect there.
But if you invite them to come and serve in
ways that they think are socially necessary, so think soup, kitchen,
clothing drive, something that is practical in immediate need in

(59:10):
your community, just invite them and say, hey, I am
really excited about this, I would love for you to
come join me. It's something very meaningful in our community.
Those kind of relationships, like building those kind of relationships
can be really really helpful, and it also shows that
Christians do actually care about poor people and the needy

(59:33):
among us, and if you're demonstrating that that's a good thing.
So I think if your church has not invested in
a high school or college ministry yet, if you don't
have anybody designated for those roles in your church, I
think you gotta do it. Like yesterday. Gen Z is

(59:54):
at the most pivotal stage in their lives when it
comes to solidifying beliefs. So if it's something like eighty
eight percent of people who have left the faith that
they once grew up in, so these are the people
who are dechurched, they made that decision before they turned
twenty nine years old, eighty eight percent. So if we

(01:00:15):
are active in pursuing people who are in this generation,
who are in this time of life where they're making
lasting decisions about their faith, that is huge and showing
that I think so much of gen Z with this
crisis of identity and with all of the upheaval in society,

(01:00:38):
and they've seen kind of they've been confronted with the
very real possibility of death, with COVID and isolation and
loneliness and all of these factors. If we show them
that there's a place for them and that they would
be loved and accepted there and respected that their voices matter.

(01:00:59):
If they have a way that they want to serve
in the community, we can come alongside and support them.
By doing that and by investing in young people, I
think that there is a very real possibility that we
could kind of turn some of these statistics around, especially
like on a local level. And you know, most importantly,

(01:01:22):
my big takeaway that I always have is we pray
about it, because God does hear our prayers. And we've
already seen statistically gen Z men are coming back to
the church in a way that no one was expecting.
The social scientists are surprised by this. So prayer does work.
And I think digital evangelism is what's really been key

(01:01:44):
for a lot of gen Z Men. I can tell
you we have had probably ten different young men join
our church because of YouTube over the last let's see
five years or so.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
Yeah, I'm seeing that in other churches as well, where
a whole bunch of young gen Z Men in their
twenties were like, I was an atheist and I started
watching YouTube and.

Speaker 3 (01:02:08):
Here I am, you know, exactly one tootal.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
But I've heard of stories at other churches where that's
happening as well, so that's very interesting. Well, another thing
I want to remind our listeners, of course, is in
addition to prayer, the Lord commands us to in his
word that we are to tell the next generation totally
about the praise worthy things of the Lord, and not

(01:02:32):
just women. You mentioned Titus too, but in the context
of Titus too, it's.

Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
Young men and older men, and younger women and older women.
So really the whole entire church, the older generation, it's
not their time to retire. They are called to reach
the next generation for Christ as well, because that's what
God is asking us to do in the context of the.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
Church absolutely, and also that means for Christians, right doesn't
say the older generation that's married. So if you're unmarried,
you might want to be involved in the youth group,
and you know, you might want to be somebody who
volunteers with them. And everybody's older than someone, so if
you think, well, I don't think I'm a boomer, sure,

(01:03:17):
but you might be a millennial, you know, and you
can engage with the gen z. So there's always you're
always older than someone. So I think it's some food
for thought for us that we need to engage this
next generation for sure in our churches.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
Definitely. I think there's this weird misconception that younger people
don't want to talk to us, and it's just not true.
You know, I love talking to all the older ladies
at church, some of my best friends. I would say,
are you know boomers? It's just because we've cultivated a
good relationship at church and they care about me and
I care about them, and so I think it's the

(01:03:53):
same with younger generations. Just invest in people and regardless
of their age, they want connections too.

Speaker 1 (01:04:01):
Well, this is a lot of food for thoughts, So
thanks for that, Lisa. And on a final note, just
for something fun, Lisa, Summers coming up, So what would
you rather do? Would you rather swim at the beach
or swim in a lake?

Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
Oh? Lakes? Definitely?

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
Okay, you're the first lake question. So that's what I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
Glad you said, like you're not going with the crowd. Well,
thanks Lisa for being a guest again on the post
Modern Realities podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
You've been listening to episode four hundred and forty five
of the post Modern Realities Podcast from the Christian Research Journal.
Today's guest was Lisa Cooper. She has written an online
feature article for the Christian Research Journal. Her article is
called how the Church can Address the Crisis of Identity
and Belief among Gen Z Women. You can read her

(01:04:52):
article for free at our website equip dot org.

Speaker 4 (01:04:56):
You won't want to miss out on subscribing to the
other podcasts from the cre rist Research Institute. We have
the Bible answer Man podcast, which is published Monday through Friday,
with the best of the week on Saturday. It's hosted
by CRI President Hank Candagraph and is available wherever you
get your favorite podcasts. In addition, Hank has a podcast

(01:05:18):
called Hank Unplugged. Hank takes you out of the studio
and into his study to engage in free flowing, essential
Christian conversations on critical issues with some of the most interesting,
informative and inspirational people on the planet. And you won't
want to miss out on the brand new podcast from

(01:05:38):
the Christian Research Journal. Christian Research Journal Reads presents audio
versions of Christian Research Journal articles. It was a print
incarnation of almost forty five years. It's now on the web,
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you won't want to miss these audio articles of some
of our most popular and most access articles on our website,

(01:06:02):
equip dot org.