August 13, 2025 • 53 mins
This Postmodern Realities episode is a conversation with JOURNAL author Derek Cooper about his article, “A Christian Exploration of the Baha’i Faith” . https://www.equip.org/articles/a-christian-exploration-of-the-bahai-faith/
Other articles and podcasts by this author: Episode 388 Jainism: India’s other ReligionJainism: India’s other Religion
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Other articles and podcasts by this author: Episode 388 Jainism: India’s other ReligionJainism: India’s other Religion
Don’t miss an episode; please subscribe to the Postmodern Realities podcast wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Please help spread the word about Postmodern Realities by giving us a rating and review when you subscribe to the podcast. The more ratings and reviews we have, the more new listeners can discover our content.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Hi everyone, Thank you for tuning in to the post
Modern Realities podcast, brought to you by the Christian Research
Institute and the Christian Research Journal. I'm Melanie Cocktail, Managing
editor of the Christian Research Journal. It's August twenty twenty
five and you're listening to episode four hundred and fifty eight,
which is a conversation about the Bahai Faith. Today's guest
(00:45):
is doctor Derek Cooper. He is the managing director of
the Thomas Institute, which is an educational travel company that
specializes in learning on location. He is also an ordained
minister who has traveled to more than eighty country and
the author of fifteen books, including Christianity and World's Religions
(01:05):
and Christianity and New Religious Movements. Derek has written an
online exclusive feature article for the Christian Research Journal. His
article is called a Christian Exploration of the Bahai Faith
and you can read it for free at equip dot org.
That's e quip dot org. Derek, it's great to have
(01:29):
you back on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I'm glad to be here well.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Derek has done some in depth research on various different
new religious movements and world religions. In the last decade
or so, and so he's kind of an expert on
some of those things. And one of those is probably
a religion that most Christians do not know anything about,
and it's the Bahai Faith. And so we do get
(01:54):
questions here at the Christian Research Institute about the Bahai Faith,
and so we just want to do a little bit
of a deep dive. There are somewhere sounds like about
ten million worldwide somewhere around there of Bahai people. That
doesn't seem like, as compared to other faiths, very many people.
But give us a little overview about the Bahai Faith.
(02:14):
So how old is it and what are its origins?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Yeah, it's one of those religions that's interesting because on
the one hand, Bahais would say that it's a religion
that's always been around because God has always been revealing
himself throughout time. On the other hand, we can go
back to a very specific time in history, and so
that's probably easiest to do. If we think about the
(02:40):
modern history of what we call the Bahai Faith, it's
actually less than two hundred years old, so we can
date it to around the year eighteen forty four, when
the beginning of the Bahai faith begins and that's going
to take place in Iran, so Persia, and that was
(03:00):
part of the larger Ottoman Empire at the time. So
eighteen forty four is the initial stage of that, and
then throughout the next several years there's different components or
developments of that that will take place that I can
go into more detail about, but just to summarize again,
when we think about this religion, it's very ancient, so
(03:21):
it's always been around in some way, and yet on
the other hand, it's very modern. It's from the eighteen
hundred Iran.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
That's really interesting. So who are some of the key
people that are connected to this faith historically? And you
said Iran, so is it I want to ask you
in a moment if that has anything to do with
Islam at all.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Absolutely. Four the central figures. There's really four of them,
and most of them have the letter B in their name,
and so I'll kind of go over each of those
and we can put them in that timeframe of the
eighteen high hundreds and nineteen hundreds, and they are Iranian
so Persian, and the first of those I'll just use
(04:06):
their titles because that's what they're most known for So
when we think about Christianity, we know that Jesus's name
was Jesus, but we oftentimes refer to him as Christ,
which is a title, and that's true for a lot
of other religions. So when we think about these central
figures within behind, the earliest of them is someone who's
called the Bob, and the Bob it's an Arabic term,
(04:28):
so it's not Bob, it's b a b and what
that means is gate or gateway. So the Bob is
a person who declared himself to be the intermediary between
God and humanity, and so he is an actual person,
and he was from Sharaz, which is an historic town
(04:49):
in Iran, and he is the one who declared himself
to be the Messiah in eighteen forty four, which starts
the modern development of Bahai. So that's the Bob. And
he's going to be killed in eighteen fifty so he'll
have a ministry that's a little more than five years,
(05:10):
and he's going to create many followers. And one of
his most well known followers is someone whose name is
a little hard to pronounce, but in English it's Baha'u'llah
and Baha just means glory in Arabic, and Ullah is
similar to Allah, so Allah the name for God in Arabic,
(05:31):
so it means something like the glory of God or
God's glory. And so that's the title that he was
given by the Bob. And Baha'ullah was a really wealthy
aristocrat and Iran in the middle of the eighteen hundreds,
and he became a devotee of the Bob, believing that
the Bob was the Messiah that had been promised within
(05:52):
Shia Islam. And I can go into more detail about
Shia Islam, but Bahoulah was late determined to be the
actual deity. So he was God, a manifestation of God,
and we'll talk more about how that works within the
Bahai faith. But when we think about Baha'u'llah, he is
(06:14):
a manifestation of God within Bahive. And so in eighteen
sixty three is when he makes that declaration, which is
a very famous time historically for Bahais And like the Bob,
he is also going to be imprisoned and he's going
to spend most of his adult life in his later
years in prison or in captivity. And so he was
(06:37):
actually exiled to lots of different countries because it was
part of the Ottoman Empire, but he ends up the
last years of his life in Israel. We have a
third really prominent figure in Bahai and his name is
Abdul Baha and he was actually the oldest son of
(06:57):
Baha'ulah and so he regarded as the successor and really
the interpreter of his father's teachings. But he was never
considered to be divine like Baja'lah was and even like
the Bob was.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
So that's Abdul Baha.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
And he's going to be the one who really stabilizes
the religion of Bahai. And then finally another figure that
i'll mention is his name is Shoghi Effendi and Shogifendi
was the grandson of Abdul BaHaB and he was someone
who is very prominent throughout the early history of Hi
(07:34):
because he created so many of the documents in Turkish
and Arabic and English and French. She spoke many languages,
and he was an ambassador for the religion.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
So those are the four names.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
I'll go over them one more time because for those
of us who are new to Bahai, there's a lot
of new terms. So there is the Bob who was
the original divine messenger within Bahai, and then he has
a follower in Baha'ullah, who is seen as also a
manifestation of God. The oldest son of bahau Lah is
Abdul Baha. He is an interpreter, and then one of
(08:10):
the grandsons of Abdulbahai's Shoghi effendi. And so those four
are probably the foremost central figures for early Bahai faith.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
A moment ago, Derek mentioned the Shia branch of Islam,
and in the show notes, we want to link for
you an article by CRI president hey kanigraph called the
Sunni Shia Split that we'll talk about the two major
branches of Islam. So, is there some place that the
(08:41):
Baha'i have a particular world headquarters that people recognize as
their headquarters, kind of like Roman Catholics recognize the center
of where their headquarters is the Vatican for example.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Absolutely, And so one of the interesting features of the
Baha'i faith is that it comes out of Islam, but
it comes out of the minority branch of Islam. So
when we think about Islam in general, the two main
branches what we could call denominations are Sunni Islam, which
is eighty five or ninety percent of Muslims today, and
(09:16):
then Shia Islam, which is ten to fifteen percent. So
that's the much smaller denomination or group within Islam. So
the Baha'i faith actually comes from Shia Islam because the
center of Bahai faith was Iran, and of all of
the countries in the world, the country with the highest
(09:38):
population even today of Shia Muslims is Iran. So that's
where it begins as a faith. And so I mentioned
the Bab and Baha'u'llah are both Iranians who would have
been part of that general Shia Islam culture. But then
what happens because Iran at that time was part of
(10:00):
the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire includes many many countries historically,
and one of those is Israel. So what happened is
the headquarters of the Bahai faith actually became Israel. And
the reason why is because Baha'u Lah was going to
be basically exiled to multiple countries, including Turkey, and then
(10:22):
finally in Israel. And there he is an acre or Ako,
which is in northern Israel. Right outside of Haifa, and
so that's where he's going to live all of his
remainder of his days. And so that's where the Bahaigh
World Center is. So that's the name of the headquarters,
the Baha'i World Center. It's right in Haifa. Haifa is
(10:43):
the largest city in northern Israel, and it's overlooking the Mediterranean.
And I can tell you that of all the centers
of world religions, of headquarters that I've been to, the
Bahaih World Center is the most beautiful. So just imagine this.
You're on top of a really large hill and you're
looking down and you see beautiful gardens going all the
(11:08):
way down and eventually it ends in the Mediterranean Sea.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
So for those of you.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Who are listening, I'd recommend just typing in the ba
High World Center and hipha and just seeing an image
of it. It's really beautiful. So that is where the
actual headquarters of the Bahai Faith is.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Every episode I point you to equip dot org, which
is the website of the Christian Research Institute, and I
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case you don't ever listen to the very end of
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(11:51):
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(12:13):
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(12:36):
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So you won't want to miss out on all of
these resources there to equip you to understand what you
(12:59):
believe and why you believe it, and so please head
on over to equip dot org. And now back to
my conversation with doctor Derek Cooper about the Bahai Faith. Well,
you're just talking about their beautiful headquarters. As a matter
of fact, we were doing a graphic for social media
and I looked up some of the different photos of
(13:19):
it and it is quite impressive. It is a very
stately building. Now, does the Bahaive faith have any particular
sacred text? When we think of Islam, we think of
the Qur'an, we think of the Bible. When it comes
to Christianity, do they have a specific holy book of
any kind?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
They do.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
And what's unique about Bahai is that there are literally
thousands of sacred texts within their religion. And the reason
why is because historically, when we think about older religions,
there was a prophet or a founder who had world teachings,
and it was usually after the founder's death that.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
There became written teaching.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
So when we think about a sacred book in Buddhism
or Islam or something along those lines, we have the
sacred book comes after the death of the founder or
the main prophet. It's actually the opposite when it comes
to the Bahai Faith. So talking about the Bob and Baha'ulah.
Both of these would have written hundreds and hundreds of
(14:25):
writings over their lifetime, especially Baha'ullah, so when he was
in exile for decades, he had the ability to write,
and so they would write very mystically. So the writing
style that they used, a part of it was based
off of the Quran, and so they would use that
because they're coming from a Muslim tradition. But at the
(14:46):
same time, they would write very mystically. So the reports
about how they wrote is they basically would just get
a piece of paper and something to write with and
go off in a trance, and so that's how they
could write thousands of documents. So most of the documents
that we have from the Bahai faith have never even
been translated into English, so they would have originally been
(15:09):
written in either Arabic or in Farsi, which is the
language of Iran. However, we do have what we would
say is probably like the Quran for Islam or the
Torah for Judaism, and that is what's called the Most
Holy Book, So that's the English translation, so it's a
(15:30):
little different. In Arabic, it's called kitab Ahdas, but it
just means the most holy book. And so that's a
book that has been written by Baha'u'llah and it contains laws,
it contains some kinds of philosophy, but in general, it's
the holy book within the religion of Bahai. So if
we think about if you were to ask a ba
(15:51):
high person what their most quintessential holy book or sacred
text would be, and it would be the most Holy Book.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
So if you had to think about condensing the Bahigh
faith and describing it in one word, what would that
word be.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, you know, I think about this a lot.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
In some of the videos that I've made I have,
I talk about, you know, worldview issues. So we think
about a religion what the problem is and then what
the solution is. And as much as possible, it's helpful
to think about maybe just one word to the problem
and one word to identify the solution. And so, for instance,
(16:33):
in Christianity, we might say something like the problem is
sin and the solution is salvation. And when it comes
to Islam, we might say the solution is submission. That's
what the word Islam means. Islam and Arabic just means submission,
submitting to God. So when it comes to Behai, I
think the best word to describe what it represents is unity.
(16:58):
We could also say oneness, but either oneness or unity
both referring to the same general concept. And that's because
when it comes to Bahi, there are three core teachings,
and that is that God is one, that religion is one,
and that humanity is one. So when we think about
maybe one word to describe it, I think unity or
(17:21):
oneness is the best term.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
So it seems that there are people of the Bahai
faith in so many countries, I mean a majority of
countries in the world. Is this idea of unity or oneness?
Is that what makes it so appealing or why is
it so appealing to so many people in such different contexts?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Yeah, I think the oneness for the unity part is
really important. One of those is although as a world religion,
the numbers itself are very small, so you were talking
about it at the beginning. The numbers there's not, of course,
compared to Christianity or Islam, where we have more than
one billion Christians more than one billion Muslims. We have
(18:04):
a very small population of Bahaigh, but what we do
have is very high diversity within that population. So here's
a good comparison to keep in mind. It's been estimated
that when it comes to a Christian church, it has
about a five percent racial diversity per church. And so
if we think about the United States, for instance, it's
(18:25):
still true today that if you were to go to
an average church, it's usually the same ethnicity or race
that's in that So if it's primarily an Hispanic church,
it's it's primarily Hispanic and not other races or ethnicities.
And so if it's about a five percent racial diversity
in a church, it's estimated to be about a fifty
(18:47):
percent diversity in a b High community. So that means
it's ten times more diverse than Christianity is in terms
of the individual populations. So I think think that is
one of the things that makes it attractive is we
live in a world today that's divided by race, it's
divided by ethnicity and nationality, and so the Bahaive faith
(19:12):
really emphasizes this unity and trying to come together, which
a lot of people find very appealing. I think that
there's also a real interest among people and it's social teachings.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
So in Behi you'll hear.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
A lot about equality, and a lot about tolerance and
the harmony of science and religion and world peace. So
in many ways, a lot of the desires of our culture,
our secular culture, are going to be found in the
religion of Bahai. So if you want world peace, then
(19:49):
you're going to find Behave very attractive because it's going
to be talked about.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And then we.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Could probably just summarize this as well by just thinking
in general the progressive revelation, which will come back to
that's another really important part of Bahai, and I think
it's something that people find attractive because this is what
it allows because of the way that Bahai understands progressive revelation.
That means that if you grow up Jewish, you don't
(20:19):
have to convert from Judaism to Bahaih. You can retain
your Jewish identity and you can just what they say,
make a declaration to Bahih. So that is that you
can adopt some Bahaigh principles, but you don't have to
turn away from your Jewish faith, or for instance, if
you're a Christian, you don't have to turn away exclusively
(20:41):
from your Christian faith. So that's at least what Bahai
would say, Christianity would not say that. But in terms
of Bahai faith, it says you can have your childhood
faith as well as a new faith and those can
work together.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
So you said that it is pretty diverse in terms
of it's just not concentrated in one country or another.
And it seems very kind of galitarian in the sense of, hey,
you can be your religion, you can be behidh. What
are do you think that the average Christian and you
know our American you know, most of our listeners are
(21:15):
in America, American neighborhoods. Would we run into people who
would hold up the high or been influenced by behind teachings.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Yeah, we would certainly run into people who are behinds,
more so than in the past. So one of the
things that we consistently see in America is that America
is becoming more diverse religiously, where virtually every city and
every major neighborhood is going to have people from lots
of different religious backgrounds. So it is likely that you
(21:43):
are going to come across someone who is from the
Bahaigh tradition, and as you get to know them a
little bit more, that will become apparent they're not like
some other religious traditions. For instance, if you come across
a man who is seek that you would be able
to see maybe from their clothing that they are from
a specific religious tradition. That won't necessarily be the case
(22:04):
with someone from Behigh, But it is increasingly more likely
that you're going to come across someone who is from Behih,
and as you get to know them, you'll learn more
about some of those differences between Christianity and Bahi. But
I think in general what a lot of people and
Bahai would say is that if you run into them
(22:26):
and are talking about religion, they would say, oh, you
can still be a Christian and you can also be Behigh, Whereas,
of course as Christians we would not say the same thing.
We would say, if you're a Christian, you can't be Behih,
but that would be something you'd come across more.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Well, the interesting thing to me is that there's not
a huge number of Behigh compared to you know, obviously
Christianity or Islam or something like that, and it is
so diverse, like in other words, spread out throughout the world.
So how did it get out of Iran and where
its roots are to become so widespread, like worldwide. I
(23:03):
mean there was did they have some kind of evangelistic
movement or how did they really?
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah? Absolutely, it's really curious.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
And I've heard people say that it's a religion that
has grown quicker than any other religion in history. I
don't think that's the case necessarily, because if you look
at other religions and you see there's been a lot
of research on how these different religions develop. But it
definitely is the case that this is a religion that
(23:30):
started in the eighteen forties an Iran and now is
represented in virtually every country in the world today. So
we think, how is that possible. Well, there's a few
ways that it's possible. One is that from its earliest days,
the bob so the one who identifies himself as the Mahdi,
the Messiah, he is one who's going to have a
(23:53):
variety of followers. So, like Jesus, he's going to choose disciples.
He's going to choose nineteen, whereas Jesus chooses twelve because
nineteen is a more symbolic number in Iran at that
time within Islam, and those followers are going to go
out and just due to the nature of the Ottoman
Empire at that time. Because their religion started in Iran,
(24:17):
we think, well, it's going to be really confined to that,
but it won't because it's actually part of the Ottoman Empire.
And so all of the earliest people connected to this
religion lack Dababla Bajao Lah. Like Shogi Affendi Abdul Baha,
they traveled a lot throughout multiple countries, and they also
spoke multiple languages. So the last two that I mentioned,
(24:40):
Abdul Baha as well as Shogi Affendi, they spoke multiple
languages and they travel widely, not just throughout the Middle East,
but also throughout Europe. And so because of their travels,
they went all throughout This is you know, the time
period where in now is the early nineteen and middle
(25:01):
nineteen hundreds. So during that for several decades, Abdul Baha
and Shoghi Effendi basically went on a campaign to spread
the Bahai faith and they were warmly received and all
of these different places in Europe, and then the message
is going to come to North America. And then another
(25:21):
thing to keep in mind is when the Ottoman Empire
collapses in the early nineteen hundreds. When it comes to Israel,
it's the British takeover, so it's called the British mandate,
that's the historical term. And when the British take over,
they actually are very receptive to the Bahai faith, and
so that allows it to thrive. And so that's why
(25:42):
today the headquarters is in Haifa, and why Bahais, even
though very recent religion, have such extensive property, because they
were allowed to do so by the British, and so
because of their relationship with the British, and then also
the travels throughout Europe and North America, it allows us
very tiny religion to spread, and then as it spreads
(26:04):
to these other places, it resonates because it's such a
modern religion. So some of the things that I was
mentioning that it's a religion that really emphasizes the oneness
of humanity. It emphasizes world peace and tolerance. So for
those reasons, I think it's become much more common and accepted.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Well, now I want to ask you a little bit
about their theology because it's so fascinating that. Of course,
like I said, I looked at photos of it, that
they have this huge headquarters in Israel, of all places,
its roots are in Iran. And then also it's such
a small religion numbers wise, but it seems to have
spread so widely. So tell us a little bit more
about their theological views. For example, is it a monotheistic
(26:48):
religion like Judaism, Christianity or Islam. Do they believe in
God or Allah? And if they do believe in a God,
is that God revealed in a specific way like we
think of Christianity, you know, revealed in the Bible. And
just curious about that, just because you said that there
one where you would describe as like unity, you know,
(27:12):
and so it's just like, well, does that have theological roots?
Speaker 3 (27:17):
M yeah, So we would actually describe Bahai as a
monotheistic faith, so monotheistic just meaning one God. And this
would be different from something like Hinduism, where we'd say
there are many gods, but when it comes to Bahai,
we say it's monotheistic.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
So it's a belief in one God.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
But I know that sounds a little strange because we've
talked about already two different gods, one of those being
the Bob and the other being Baha'u Lah. But here's
how Bahai would understand this. Bahais would say that they
are strictly monotheistic, so they only believe in one God,
who is the creator and the sustainer of the universe.
(28:00):
But they would also teach that God's essence is unknowable
and it's inaccessible to human beings, and so what God
does is in God's kindness. God reveals himself through what
are called manifestations, and so these manifestations of God are
believed to be God on earth. And usually because nine
(28:23):
and nineteen are symbolic numbers in Islam as well as
in Bahai, that we see that there's nine manifestations of
God throughout history. Most of those are going to be
names that we're all familiar with because they are prophets
or deities and other religions. So, for instance, Abraham and
(28:45):
Moses are considered to be manifestations of God within Bahid
because they would say that thousands of years ago God
is going to essentially come down to earth to manifest
himself and to present his teachings for humankind, and so
that'd be through Abraham, and then hundreds of years go by,
(29:06):
and then Moses, and then hundreds of years go by.
And that could be to Zuriastor. Zuriastor is going to
be very famous deity for Bahind in Iran. So I'm
going to think about Zoroastrianism. If that's a term that
people have heard before. That's an ancient religious tradition connected
to Iran. Other names that we're all familiar with are
(29:27):
names like Buddha and of course Jesus and Mohammad. So
these also are understood to be manifestations of God. So
the Buddha comes and then thousands of years or hundreds
of years later, Jesus is going to appear in a
different part of the world, and then hundreds of years later,
Muhammad is going to appear in a different part of
(29:49):
the world. So that's how God is revealed through different manifestations. However,
Bahais would still argue that that's it's still one God.
We don't ultimately know this God in any perfect way. Instead,
what we have is that God is going to appear
and manifest throughout history and distinct ways, and specifically those
(30:10):
are some of the main manifestations of God.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
So you mentioned different teachers that are associated figures that
are associated with various religions, like the Buddha and Buddhism,
and Mohammad and Islam. So what about Christianity and Jesus Christ.
How do the Baha'i look at Jesus Christ? Who do
they say that he is?
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Baha's would say that Jesus is a manifestation of God.
So in that regard, he is God. So he's a
divine messenger, and he is just like all of the
other manifestations of God. He's revealing God's will for people
at that time and at that place, and so they
would acknowledge that he has a divine origin. They would
(30:57):
say that his teachings are accurate and they reflect what
God wants for humanity.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
They would say that he was born of a virgin.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
But they would be very different from us in a
classical historical tradition because they would not say that Jesus
is the unique incarnate son of God. They wouldn't say
that he's the second person of the Trinity, for instance,
and they wouldn't say that his death on the cross
is the only means of salvation for humans. So, in
(31:30):
other words, they would see Jesus as a manifestation of God.
But he's in a very long line of manifestations. He's
not the last revelation or the ultimate revelation, as we
Christians would say. And another thing to keep in mind
is we use specific terms to refer to Jesus, for instance,
as Son of God, and that's a term that could
(31:53):
be used in the Bahai tradition for people like Baha'u'llah,
So there are different terms also like the Massie I've
mentioned that before, but the Bob and Baha'ullah we're also
seen as a Messiah figure, so similar in some ways
in the sense that they would believe that Jesus is God,
but different from us as Christians because they would not
(32:14):
believe in him exclusively as God and that his death
on the cross is the means of our salvation.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
So to piggyback on some of the things that you
just mentioned about the Baha'i faith, I'd like you to
help us by responding to some YouTube comments we've received
on one of our videos about the Bahai faith that
we posted in the last year or so, and here's
(32:44):
one of them, so help us think through how to
respond to this. As a Christian quote. Bahais believe Baha'ullah
is not the final manifestation of God. More will come
roughly every one thousand years. We've used science and religion
as harmonious and affirm both the virgin birth and the
(33:06):
eschatological symbolism of the trinity, the Father as the Son,
the Son as a pure mirror, and the Holy Spirit
as its rays. Humanity often rejects divine messengers, yet all
manifestations from Christ to Moses to Muhammad reflect one source.
(33:27):
Bahatulah's teachings are meant for this age, just as Jesus
were for his time end quote. How would a Christian
respond to that and say, Yeah, it's not the same
as what you just said as far as Christianity is concerned.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Yeah, So for behinds, what they would say is that
these other manifestations of God, so for instance, Jesus coming
two thousand years ago to Israel, that that was appropriate
for that time and for that age. However, that's not
the fine revelation of God. There's going to be another
one that comes. And for behin as they would say,
(34:06):
hundreds of years later, Muhammad comes and Muhammad is mostly
in Saudi Arabia, and then we have about a thousand
years after that, the Bob comes to Iran and Baha'u'llah
comes to Iran as well, so they believe that there
are these different manifestations. And even when it comes to Baha'u'llah,
(34:26):
Bahaullah has a right. He has many writings as I mentioned,
but one of those is where he declares that there
is going to be another manifestation of God after him,
but that it'll be about a thousand years from now.
So there's this expectation in behind that we have a
manifestation of God and it's appropriate at that time and
(34:48):
in that place, but as time goes on that we
have newer revelations that are going to be more appropriate.
And as Christians, that's not what we believe. We believe
that Jesus provides the ultimate revelation of God. And as
the New Testament talks about, Jesus is the icon of God,
(35:09):
you know, He's the image of God. And so when
we're looking at Jesus, we are looking at who God is.
And so the will of God has been manifested to
us through the life and the ministry the teachings of
Jesus Christ, and so we're not looking to the future
for another manifestation of God to appear. Instead, we're looking
(35:30):
in the future for Jesus to reappear back on earth again.
And so for the Christian tradition, our eyes are always
gazing towards Jesus, and so when we go back and
to read the Old Testament, for instance, we're doing so
from the lens of knowing that Jesus is ultimately what
the Old Testament is referring to. It's preparing us for Jesus.
(35:52):
When we're looking at the New Testament, we see Jesus everywhere.
So in the Gospels, Jesus is here on earth teaching,
and then we look at the Life Letters in the
later part of the New Testament, for instance, by Paul,
Paul's talking about after Jesus's time how the Christian community
forms based off the teaching and ministry of Jesus, and
then throughout church history we're always looking forward at him.
(36:14):
So this is going to be one of the big
contrasts as Bahais would never be looking toward Jesus in
the future. They're going to be looking forward a new manifestation.
And even they're not even going to be looking at
Jesus in the past, because if we've had several manifestations
of God since Jesus and so for Bahid that's three.
So they would say that we had Muhammad, we had
(36:37):
the Bob, and we had bahau Lah, and the latest
of those is bahau Lah. So more or less we
should focus on the teachings of bahau Lah because those
are the more recent, which means they're the ones that
are most appropriate for us today. That's how they would
look at it, And of course, as Christians, we want
to stay focused on Jesus no matter where we are
(36:57):
in history.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
So are there other similarities and differences between Bahai and Christianity?
That was very helpful to help us understand what they
think about who Jesus was in terms of manifestations, and
then why they would want to focus on what they
would say as a recent manifestation. So are there other
things that we should know about ways in which the
(37:22):
Bahai faith is similar and different from Christianity.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Yeah, I would say a few similarities that we can
keep in mind. One of those we've talked about that
both Bahais and Christians believe in one God, so they're
both monotheistic religions. Also, in terms of the moral teachings
in general, there are a lot of similarities. So when
it comes to Bahai, they would have ethical principles like
(37:47):
love others and just as we do in Christianity. Thinking
about the Golden Rule, there would be the importance of
prayer within Bahai and Christianity. So for Bahai's there are
usually two prayers a day are actually there's two different
readings throughout the day, one in the morning and one
(38:07):
in the evening, and then there's usually a main prayer,
a centering prayer that's prayed usually between noon and the afternoon.
And there's also a belief in scripture, so that there's
holy writings, and there's also a belief in the afterlife,
so the Behives will have a concept of the afterlife
just as Christians do. But there are also lots of differences,
(38:31):
and it really is the differences that matter. So I've
talked about the differences in the nature of God. So
we as Christians believe that God is a trinity, so
that God is manifest in the Father's Son and.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Spirit all are God.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
So the unity and the Trinity, all of those coming together,
the one and the three. In terms of the nature
of Christ. We was also talked about that where although
Bahives would recognize Jesus as a manifestation of God, they
would differ from us as Christians because we believe that
Jesus is the unique person of God, fully human, fully
(39:06):
God and who atone for our sin through his death
and through his resurrection, and that of course relates to salvation.
We as Christians believe salvation is by grace, it's through
faith in Jesus, it's not through some other person. And
there's not something that we can do to earn the
love of God our salvation that we are relying upon
(39:29):
the finished work of Jesus Christ. And I'd say probably
the last thing to keep in mind too, is just
the finality of that revelation. So I've mentioned for Bahays,
they believe in progressive revelation, so they believe that the
latest manifestation of God was Baha'u'llah, but several hundred years
from now there'll be a new manifestation of God. For
(39:50):
us as Christians, we believe in the finality of Jesus's revelation.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Now, I want you to respond to another of the YouTube
comments we've rec on our video, and that is something
that kind of is emphasized by something you said at
the beginning of this podcast where you would kind of
characterize Bahai in one word as unity. So here's the
(40:16):
comment from YouTube quote. Bahais believe that God sends manifestations
like Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, and Bahulah to guide humanity. The
faith centereds on unity and rejects racism, sexism, and nationalism.
Its teachings aim to establish a global society founded on peace,
(40:41):
justice and equality for all. Unity over division is the
path forward end quote. So how would a Christian respond
to that? I mean to affirm things that they could
agree with, but also point out the uniqueness of Christianity.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
Yeah, and I would say that as Christians, we certainly
agree with parts of that. So there is a component
of Christianity which we are knowing that one day we're
going to have the fullness of truth. And you know,
as the Book of Revelation talks about where we're going
to see all nations, all nationalities, all languages together, we're
(41:17):
going to be united worshiping God. So there is something
beautiful about that in Christianity that there is a unity
that we also strive for. But that unity is not
that we're trying to bring everybody together. So that we
all have to be the same and how we look
or anything like that, but that we're unified in our
(41:38):
worship of God. When it comes to behind, they really
are focused on setting up a new world order. So
you'll see that kind of language. So one of the
things that I didn't mention is when it comes to
the authority of the Bahaive faith, there is what's called
the Universal House of Justice, and the Universal House of
(42:01):
Justice was established by Showgi Efendi, one of those figures
that I mentioned, and it really is the leadership. And
there's a document that was written about world peace, and
in that document it talks about that this really is
the central feature of the Bahaigh faith today, is that
it wants to have a world that's focused on technology,
(42:26):
the future, tolerance, equality, world peace, and.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Those kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
For us as Christians, as I mentioned, we're we are
focused on Jesus Christ. We're focused on Jesus is the
one who has established the Kingdom of God on earth,
and we as the Church are trying to be faithful
to the message of Jesus Christ. We're trying to share
the love of Christ with all of those around us.
And we're also praying and waiting for the day that
(42:54):
Jesus Christ will return on earth to set everything right
and to bring to gather all of the brokenness that
currently exists. But in terms of those principles of Behi,
it really is a focus today on values of the
secular culture. Not that there's anything wrong in and of
itself with wanting to have peace and wanting to have
(43:16):
a sense of equality, But as Christians, our aspirations are
really focused on God's Kingdom being here on earth and
one day God's Kingdom coming fully to earth and being
part of that, which means that we're going to look
at things differently from a secular worldview.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
You mentioned that there is a good possibility that we
could run into somebody who is behindh or tries to
syncretize behind with their faith, whether it's Christianity or Judaism
or something else. And so if someone one of our
listeners is running across such a person and wants to
share their faith in Christ with someone of the Bahigh faith,
(43:57):
what would you recommend that they do? And they say,
and are there some pitfalls that they should avoid? Are
the things they shouldn't say?
Speaker 3 (44:07):
Yeah, I would say there's a few things I'd recommend
that they would say and a few things that they
would not say. So one of those is certainly to
you know, as Jesus talks about, to love our neighbors
as ourselves, so to be loving, to be respectful in
general when we're sharing our faith with other people, if
we are going to be rude to them, then it's
(44:29):
just simply going to be an opportunity for them to
have assumptions about what Christians believe and how they act
and not listen. And so we want to be, you know,
as respectful as possible and know that we're interacting with
other human beings who are created in God's image. So
listen to the things that they talk about, but be
loving and respectful. The other is I would really focus
(44:52):
on Jesus Christ, because of course, as Christians, that's who
we are focused on, and to affirm the work of
Jesus Christ. To focus on the gospel message of what
Jesus came on earth to do, To focus on the
uniqueness of Jesus, to focus on him living on earth,
his literal death, his literal resurrection, and so behys in
(45:16):
general would want to say, yeah, we think that Jesus
was great, and we believe that Jesus taught amazing things,
and so I would just encourage them to go specifically
to certain passages in the Gospels. And as you look
through the Gospels, you certainly see that Jesus is not
(45:37):
just interested in moral teachings. So although he will talk
about loving others as ourselves, there's also very specific things
that he says about himself, and that we see throughout
the New Testament that there is an exclusivity that Jesus
demands that Jesus talks about we don't serve two masters.
(45:57):
If we do, we're going to have a divided house.
We have to serve God, which means that we can't
serve the things of this world. So as much as
Bahais would really want to focus in a more generic
understanding of who Jesus is, that he loved everybody and
he wanted everybody to get along, when you go deeper
in the Gospels, you see that Jesus is talking about
(46:19):
the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of God here on earth,
and the authority that he brings in his very clear
teachings which.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Are much more than just being nice.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
So in addition to that, I would say, there's some
things probably to avoid, and one of those is to
not assume that when we use terms like son of
God or Messiah or prophet, that that's always understood to
be exclusive to Jesus. So I mentioned earlier that these
are also terms that bhis would use, so they would
(46:54):
use a phrase like son of God or prophet or
messiah or almost one to refer to the bab or Baha'ullah.
So I just want to make sure those terms are
very specific, so when we're talking about Jesus as the
son of God, that we maybe use a different way
to refer to that so that we don't make a
confusion with Behayves. Another thing is I would say, don't
(47:18):
immediately feel the need to go on defense and to
say ah baha a lah, he was a liar or
nothing what he said is true. So something that's just
generally helpful to keep in mind is we know from
scripture and the Christian tradition that there is a thing
called natural revelation, and that is that God has revelation
(47:39):
that is a parent to all of humanity, that's not
just exclusive to Christians. So as Christians, we believe that
we're exclusive to supernatural revelation that is specific to the
work of Jesus here on earth. But in terms of
just looking around us, using our brains and looking at nature,
we can make certain assumption And the same is true
(48:01):
for people of Behih. They can make assumptions, they can
be accurate, and so don't just immediately dismiss everything that
they talk about. And then, you know, related to that,
I would just say in general, when you're working with
a Bahai, not to criticize, you know, their values on
(48:22):
world peace and tolerance, but to make a road in
road into how that relates to Jesus. So I would say,
don't dismiss what we might regard as secular values and
instead say, oh, when it comes to world peace, for instance,
you can have them share that and then make a
(48:42):
connection to Jesus and say, oh, you know, this is
what Jesus says about peace. And so as much as
you can be, you know, affirming what they're saying about
a concept, but redirecting them towards Jesus and how as
the Christian tradition, Jesus is saying very specific things that
we can share with them.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
Well. Thanks, This has been very fascinating and interesting I
didn't know that much about the Hai before you wrote
the article and we had this conversation. So now finally
I have a fun question for Derek. As I mentioned
at the beginning of the podcast, he is a managing
director of an educational travel company and that company does
(49:22):
some learning on location, which, by the way, would be
great for any of our listeners who are parents looking
for ideas for a gap year for their student. Maybe,
But out of all the different countries that you visited, Derek,
what's your favorite country to visit?
Speaker 3 (49:36):
Oh, it's such a great question. It's really hard. I
can give you two different answers real quickly. So I
would say, in terms of my favorite city, my favorite
city is Istanbul in Turkey. And the reason why I
love it is because it's just so full of energy
and life, and so the people are wonderful, the food
(49:57):
is excellent, the architecture is amazing. We see really two
religious traditions side by side. So we have the bulk
of the Christian Empire. So thinking about what's called the
Byzantine Empire, this says where Constantine lives and where much
of Christian history takes place. And then we also have
(50:17):
the backdrop of Islam and the Ottoman Empire that's going
to merge that we've been talking about the Ottoman Empire
in this episode where we're learning this is where Shia
Islam as well as the Bahai faith starts. So Istanbul
is definitely my favorite city. In terms of my favorite country,
(50:37):
I'm going.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
To go with Brazil. Brazil is also one of those places.
Speaker 3 (50:41):
It's full of life, the people are wonderful, the food's amazing,
and it just has such a distinct feel when you
go to Brazil. Most of their cities are along the water,
which really helps. It's beautiful and the people just are
a lot of fun and it's a beautiful language.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
And my humble opinion.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
In Brazilian Portuguese is the most beautiful language on earth.
And I just love everything about Brazil. You know, football
at which we call soccer, and the sport. It's just
it's so full of life. When I think about Brazil,
it's like it's a place that's bursting with life.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
Wow, that's probably going to make some of the folks
who like to travel look into it if they haven't
been to Brazil or to Turkey yet. Where is Donebul
is well? Thank you so much Derek for being a
guest again on the Postmodern Realities podcast.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
It's my pleasure. I love being here.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
You've been listening to episode four hundred and fifty eight
of the post Modern Realities podcast from the Christian Research Journal.
Today's guest was doctor Derek Cooper. He has written an
online exclusive feature article for the Christian Research Journal. His
article is called a Christian Exploration of the Bahai Faith
(51:56):
and you can read it for free without a paywall
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(52:17):
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(52:39):
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(53:00):
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website equip dot org.
Hi everyone, Thank you for tuning in to the post
Modern Realities podcast, brought to you by the Christian Research
Institute and the Christian Research Journal. I'm Melanie Cocktail, Managing
editor of the Christian Research Journal. It's August twenty twenty
five and you're listening to episode four hundred and fifty eight,
which is a conversation about the Bahai Faith. Today's guest
(00:45):
is doctor Derek Cooper. He is the managing director of
the Thomas Institute, which is an educational travel company that
specializes in learning on location. He is also an ordained
minister who has traveled to more than eighty country and
the author of fifteen books, including Christianity and World's Religions
(01:05):
and Christianity and New Religious Movements. Derek has written an
online exclusive feature article for the Christian Research Journal. His
article is called a Christian Exploration of the Bahai Faith
and you can read it for free at equip dot org.
That's e quip dot org. Derek, it's great to have
(01:29):
you back on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I'm glad to be here well.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Derek has done some in depth research on various different
new religious movements and world religions. In the last decade
or so, and so he's kind of an expert on
some of those things. And one of those is probably
a religion that most Christians do not know anything about,
and it's the Bahai Faith. And so we do get
(01:54):
questions here at the Christian Research Institute about the Bahai Faith,
and so we just want to do a little bit
of a deep dive. There are somewhere sounds like about
ten million worldwide somewhere around there of Bahai people. That
doesn't seem like, as compared to other faiths, very many people.
But give us a little overview about the Bahai Faith.
(02:14):
So how old is it and what are its origins?
Speaker 3 (02:18):
Yeah, it's one of those religions that's interesting because on
the one hand, Bahais would say that it's a religion
that's always been around because God has always been revealing
himself throughout time. On the other hand, we can go
back to a very specific time in history, and so
that's probably easiest to do. If we think about the
(02:40):
modern history of what we call the Bahai Faith, it's
actually less than two hundred years old, so we can
date it to around the year eighteen forty four, when
the beginning of the Bahai faith begins and that's going
to take place in Iran, so Persia, and that was
(03:00):
part of the larger Ottoman Empire at the time. So
eighteen forty four is the initial stage of that, and
then throughout the next several years there's different components or
developments of that that will take place that I can
go into more detail about, but just to summarize again,
when we think about this religion, it's very ancient, so
(03:21):
it's always been around in some way, and yet on
the other hand, it's very modern. It's from the eighteen
hundred Iran.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
That's really interesting. So who are some of the key
people that are connected to this faith historically? And you
said Iran, so is it I want to ask you
in a moment if that has anything to do with
Islam at all.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Absolutely. Four the central figures. There's really four of them,
and most of them have the letter B in their name,
and so I'll kind of go over each of those
and we can put them in that timeframe of the
eighteen high hundreds and nineteen hundreds, and they are Iranian
so Persian, and the first of those I'll just use
(04:06):
their titles because that's what they're most known for So
when we think about Christianity, we know that Jesus's name
was Jesus, but we oftentimes refer to him as Christ,
which is a title, and that's true for a lot
of other religions. So when we think about these central
figures within behind, the earliest of them is someone who's
called the Bob, and the Bob it's an Arabic term,
(04:28):
so it's not Bob, it's b a b and what
that means is gate or gateway. So the Bob is
a person who declared himself to be the intermediary between
God and humanity, and so he is an actual person,
and he was from Sharaz, which is an historic town
(04:49):
in Iran, and he is the one who declared himself
to be the Messiah in eighteen forty four, which starts
the modern development of Bahai. So that's the Bob. And
he's going to be killed in eighteen fifty so he'll
have a ministry that's a little more than five years,
(05:10):
and he's going to create many followers. And one of
his most well known followers is someone whose name is
a little hard to pronounce, but in English it's Baha'u'llah
and Baha just means glory in Arabic, and Ullah is
similar to Allah, so Allah the name for God in Arabic,
(05:31):
so it means something like the glory of God or
God's glory. And so that's the title that he was
given by the Bob. And Baha'ullah was a really wealthy
aristocrat and Iran in the middle of the eighteen hundreds,
and he became a devotee of the Bob, believing that
the Bob was the Messiah that had been promised within
(05:52):
Shia Islam. And I can go into more detail about
Shia Islam, but Bahoulah was late determined to be the
actual deity. So he was God, a manifestation of God,
and we'll talk more about how that works within the
Bahai faith. But when we think about Baha'u'llah, he is
(06:14):
a manifestation of God within Bahive. And so in eighteen
sixty three is when he makes that declaration, which is
a very famous time historically for Bahais And like the Bob,
he is also going to be imprisoned and he's going
to spend most of his adult life in his later
years in prison or in captivity. And so he was
(06:37):
actually exiled to lots of different countries because it was
part of the Ottoman Empire, but he ends up the
last years of his life in Israel. We have a
third really prominent figure in Bahai and his name is
Abdul Baha and he was actually the oldest son of
(06:57):
Baha'ulah and so he regarded as the successor and really
the interpreter of his father's teachings. But he was never
considered to be divine like Baja'lah was and even like
the Bob was.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
So that's Abdul Baha.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
And he's going to be the one who really stabilizes
the religion of Bahai. And then finally another figure that
i'll mention is his name is Shoghi Effendi and Shogifendi
was the grandson of Abdul BaHaB and he was someone
who is very prominent throughout the early history of Hi
(07:34):
because he created so many of the documents in Turkish
and Arabic and English and French. She spoke many languages,
and he was an ambassador for the religion.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
So those are the four names.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
I'll go over them one more time because for those
of us who are new to Bahai, there's a lot
of new terms. So there is the Bob who was
the original divine messenger within Bahai, and then he has
a follower in Baha'ullah, who is seen as also a
manifestation of God. The oldest son of bahau Lah is
Abdul Baha. He is an interpreter, and then one of
(08:10):
the grandsons of Abdulbahai's Shoghi effendi. And so those four
are probably the foremost central figures for early Bahai faith.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
A moment ago, Derek mentioned the Shia branch of Islam,
and in the show notes, we want to link for
you an article by CRI president hey kanigraph called the
Sunni Shia Split that we'll talk about the two major
branches of Islam. So, is there some place that the
(08:41):
Baha'i have a particular world headquarters that people recognize as
their headquarters, kind of like Roman Catholics recognize the center
of where their headquarters is the Vatican for example.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Absolutely, And so one of the interesting features of the
Baha'i faith is that it comes out of Islam, but
it comes out of the minority branch of Islam. So
when we think about Islam in general, the two main
branches what we could call denominations are Sunni Islam, which
is eighty five or ninety percent of Muslims today, and
(09:16):
then Shia Islam, which is ten to fifteen percent. So
that's the much smaller denomination or group within Islam. So
the Baha'i faith actually comes from Shia Islam because the
center of Bahai faith was Iran, and of all of
the countries in the world, the country with the highest
(09:38):
population even today of Shia Muslims is Iran. So that's
where it begins as a faith. And so I mentioned
the Bab and Baha'u'llah are both Iranians who would have
been part of that general Shia Islam culture. But then
what happens because Iran at that time was part of
(10:00):
the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire includes many many countries historically,
and one of those is Israel. So what happened is
the headquarters of the Bahai faith actually became Israel. And
the reason why is because Baha'u Lah was going to
be basically exiled to multiple countries, including Turkey, and then
(10:22):
finally in Israel. And there he is an acre or Ako,
which is in northern Israel. Right outside of Haifa, and
so that's where he's going to live all of his
remainder of his days. And so that's where the Bahaigh
World Center is. So that's the name of the headquarters,
the Baha'i World Center. It's right in Haifa. Haifa is
(10:43):
the largest city in northern Israel, and it's overlooking the Mediterranean.
And I can tell you that of all the centers
of world religions, of headquarters that I've been to, the
Bahaih World Center is the most beautiful. So just imagine this.
You're on top of a really large hill and you're
looking down and you see beautiful gardens going all the
(11:08):
way down and eventually it ends in the Mediterranean Sea.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
So for those of you.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Who are listening, I'd recommend just typing in the ba
High World Center and hipha and just seeing an image
of it. It's really beautiful. So that is where the
actual headquarters of the Bahai Faith is.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Every episode I point you to equip dot org, which
is the website of the Christian Research Institute, and I
want to tell you about our various different outreaches in
case you don't ever listen to the very end of
the podcast, and that is equip dot org has thousands
of articles, all free from the almost fifty year history
(11:51):
of the Christian Research Journal. Those are available for you. Plus,
if you haven't already added to your podcast feed Christian
Research jow Reads podcast, you don't want to miss out
on it because we have almost one hundred and thirty
episodes and they are all just audio articles of our
most popular articles for the Christian Research Journal. You won't
(12:13):
want to miss that. Plus, if you're on social media,
please don't forget to check out our YouTube channel, which
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you're on that platform. So we have more than three
thousand videos on our channel, The Bible Answer In on YouTube,
(12:36):
and it's just a wealth of information. You'll also find
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So you won't want to miss out on all of
these resources there to equip you to understand what you
(12:59):
believe and why you believe it, and so please head
on over to equip dot org. And now back to
my conversation with doctor Derek Cooper about the Bahai Faith. Well,
you're just talking about their beautiful headquarters. As a matter
of fact, we were doing a graphic for social media
and I looked up some of the different photos of
(13:19):
it and it is quite impressive. It is a very
stately building. Now, does the Bahaive faith have any particular
sacred text? When we think of Islam, we think of
the Qur'an, we think of the Bible. When it comes
to Christianity, do they have a specific holy book of
any kind?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
They do.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
And what's unique about Bahai is that there are literally
thousands of sacred texts within their religion. And the reason
why is because historically, when we think about older religions,
there was a prophet or a founder who had world teachings,
and it was usually after the founder's death that.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
There became written teaching.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
So when we think about a sacred book in Buddhism
or Islam or something along those lines, we have the
sacred book comes after the death of the founder or
the main prophet. It's actually the opposite when it comes
to the Bahai Faith. So talking about the Bob and Baha'ulah.
Both of these would have written hundreds and hundreds of
(14:25):
writings over their lifetime, especially Baha'ullah, so when he was
in exile for decades, he had the ability to write,
and so they would write very mystically. So the writing
style that they used, a part of it was based
off of the Quran, and so they would use that
because they're coming from a Muslim tradition. But at the
(14:46):
same time, they would write very mystically. So the reports
about how they wrote is they basically would just get
a piece of paper and something to write with and
go off in a trance, and so that's how they
could write thousands of documents. So most of the documents
that we have from the Bahai faith have never even
been translated into English, so they would have originally been
(15:09):
written in either Arabic or in Farsi, which is the
language of Iran. However, we do have what we would
say is probably like the Quran for Islam or the
Torah for Judaism, and that is what's called the Most
Holy Book, So that's the English translation, so it's a
(15:30):
little different. In Arabic, it's called kitab Ahdas, but it
just means the most holy book. And so that's a
book that has been written by Baha'u'llah and it contains laws,
it contains some kinds of philosophy, but in general, it's
the holy book within the religion of Bahai. So if
we think about if you were to ask a ba
(15:51):
high person what their most quintessential holy book or sacred
text would be, and it would be the most Holy Book.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
So if you had to think about condensing the Bahigh
faith and describing it in one word, what would that
word be.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, you know, I think about this a lot.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
In some of the videos that I've made I have,
I talk about, you know, worldview issues. So we think
about a religion what the problem is and then what
the solution is. And as much as possible, it's helpful
to think about maybe just one word to the problem
and one word to identify the solution. And so, for instance,
(16:33):
in Christianity, we might say something like the problem is
sin and the solution is salvation. And when it comes
to Islam, we might say the solution is submission. That's
what the word Islam means. Islam and Arabic just means submission,
submitting to God. So when it comes to Behai, I
think the best word to describe what it represents is unity.
(16:58):
We could also say oneness, but either oneness or unity
both referring to the same general concept. And that's because
when it comes to Bahi, there are three core teachings,
and that is that God is one, that religion is one,
and that humanity is one. So when we think about
maybe one word to describe it, I think unity or
(17:21):
oneness is the best term.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
So it seems that there are people of the Bahai
faith in so many countries, I mean a majority of
countries in the world. Is this idea of unity or oneness?
Is that what makes it so appealing or why is
it so appealing to so many people in such different contexts?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Yeah, I think the oneness for the unity part is
really important. One of those is although as a world religion,
the numbers itself are very small, so you were talking
about it at the beginning. The numbers there's not, of course,
compared to Christianity or Islam, where we have more than
one billion Christians more than one billion Muslims. We have
(18:04):
a very small population of Bahaigh, but what we do
have is very high diversity within that population. So here's
a good comparison to keep in mind. It's been estimated
that when it comes to a Christian church, it has
about a five percent racial diversity per church. And so
if we think about the United States, for instance, it's
(18:25):
still true today that if you were to go to
an average church, it's usually the same ethnicity or race
that's in that So if it's primarily an Hispanic church,
it's it's primarily Hispanic and not other races or ethnicities.
And so if it's about a five percent racial diversity
in a church, it's estimated to be about a fifty
(18:47):
percent diversity in a b High community. So that means
it's ten times more diverse than Christianity is in terms
of the individual populations. So I think think that is
one of the things that makes it attractive is we
live in a world today that's divided by race, it's
divided by ethnicity and nationality, and so the Bahaive faith
(19:12):
really emphasizes this unity and trying to come together, which
a lot of people find very appealing. I think that
there's also a real interest among people and it's social teachings.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
So in Behi you'll hear.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
A lot about equality, and a lot about tolerance and
the harmony of science and religion and world peace. So
in many ways, a lot of the desires of our culture,
our secular culture, are going to be found in the
religion of Bahai. So if you want world peace, then
(19:49):
you're going to find Behave very attractive because it's going
to be talked about.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And then we.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Could probably just summarize this as well by just thinking
in general the progressive revelation, which will come back to
that's another really important part of Bahai, and I think
it's something that people find attractive because this is what
it allows because of the way that Bahai understands progressive revelation.
That means that if you grow up Jewish, you don't
(20:19):
have to convert from Judaism to Bahaih. You can retain
your Jewish identity and you can just what they say,
make a declaration to Bahih. So that is that you
can adopt some Bahaigh principles, but you don't have to
turn away from your Jewish faith, or for instance, if
you're a Christian, you don't have to turn away exclusively
(20:41):
from your Christian faith. So that's at least what Bahai
would say, Christianity would not say that. But in terms
of Bahai faith, it says you can have your childhood
faith as well as a new faith and those can
work together.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
So you said that it is pretty diverse in terms
of it's just not concentrated in one country or another.
And it seems very kind of galitarian in the sense of, hey,
you can be your religion, you can be behidh. What
are do you think that the average Christian and you
know our American you know, most of our listeners are
(21:15):
in America, American neighborhoods. Would we run into people who
would hold up the high or been influenced by behind teachings.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Yeah, we would certainly run into people who are behinds,
more so than in the past. So one of the
things that we consistently see in America is that America
is becoming more diverse religiously, where virtually every city and
every major neighborhood is going to have people from lots
of different religious backgrounds. So it is likely that you
(21:43):
are going to come across someone who is from the
Bahaigh tradition, and as you get to know them a
little bit more, that will become apparent they're not like
some other religious traditions. For instance, if you come across
a man who is seek that you would be able
to see maybe from their clothing that they are from
a specific religious tradition. That won't necessarily be the case
(22:04):
with someone from Behigh, But it is increasingly more likely
that you're going to come across someone who is from Behih,
and as you get to know them, you'll learn more
about some of those differences between Christianity and Bahi. But
I think in general what a lot of people and
Bahai would say is that if you run into them
(22:26):
and are talking about religion, they would say, oh, you
can still be a Christian and you can also be Behigh, Whereas,
of course as Christians we would not say the same thing.
We would say, if you're a Christian, you can't be Behih,
but that would be something you'd come across more.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Well, the interesting thing to me is that there's not
a huge number of Behigh compared to you know, obviously
Christianity or Islam or something like that, and it is
so diverse, like in other words, spread out throughout the world.
So how did it get out of Iran and where
its roots are to become so widespread, like worldwide. I
(23:03):
mean there was did they have some kind of evangelistic
movement or how did they really?
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah? Absolutely, it's really curious.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
And I've heard people say that it's a religion that
has grown quicker than any other religion in history. I
don't think that's the case necessarily, because if you look
at other religions and you see there's been a lot
of research on how these different religions develop. But it
definitely is the case that this is a religion that
(23:30):
started in the eighteen forties an Iran and now is
represented in virtually every country in the world today. So
we think, how is that possible. Well, there's a few
ways that it's possible. One is that from its earliest days,
the bob so the one who identifies himself as the Mahdi,
the Messiah, he is one who's going to have a
(23:53):
variety of followers. So, like Jesus, he's going to choose disciples.
He's going to choose nineteen, whereas Jesus chooses twelve because
nineteen is a more symbolic number in Iran at that
time within Islam, and those followers are going to go
out and just due to the nature of the Ottoman
Empire at that time. Because their religion started in Iran,
(24:17):
we think, well, it's going to be really confined to that,
but it won't because it's actually part of the Ottoman Empire.
And so all of the earliest people connected to this
religion lack Dababla Bajao Lah. Like Shogi Affendi Abdul Baha,
they traveled a lot throughout multiple countries, and they also
spoke multiple languages. So the last two that I mentioned,
(24:40):
Abdul Baha as well as Shogi Affendi, they spoke multiple
languages and they travel widely, not just throughout the Middle East,
but also throughout Europe. And so because of their travels,
they went all throughout This is you know, the time
period where in now is the early nineteen and middle
(25:01):
nineteen hundreds. So during that for several decades, Abdul Baha
and Shoghi Effendi basically went on a campaign to spread
the Bahai faith and they were warmly received and all
of these different places in Europe, and then the message
is going to come to North America. And then another
(25:21):
thing to keep in mind is when the Ottoman Empire
collapses in the early nineteen hundreds. When it comes to Israel,
it's the British takeover, so it's called the British mandate,
that's the historical term. And when the British take over,
they actually are very receptive to the Bahai faith, and
so that allows it to thrive. And so that's why
(25:42):
today the headquarters is in Haifa, and why Bahais, even
though very recent religion, have such extensive property, because they
were allowed to do so by the British, and so
because of their relationship with the British, and then also
the travels throughout Europe and North America, it allows us
very tiny religion to spread, and then as it spreads
(26:04):
to these other places, it resonates because it's such a
modern religion. So some of the things that I was
mentioning that it's a religion that really emphasizes the oneness
of humanity. It emphasizes world peace and tolerance. So for
those reasons, I think it's become much more common and accepted.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Well, now I want to ask you a little bit
about their theology because it's so fascinating that. Of course,
like I said, I looked at photos of it, that
they have this huge headquarters in Israel, of all places,
its roots are in Iran. And then also it's such
a small religion numbers wise, but it seems to have
spread so widely. So tell us a little bit more
about their theological views. For example, is it a monotheistic
(26:48):
religion like Judaism, Christianity or Islam. Do they believe in
God or Allah? And if they do believe in a God,
is that God revealed in a specific way like we
think of Christianity, you know, revealed in the Bible. And
just curious about that, just because you said that there
one where you would describe as like unity, you know,
(27:12):
and so it's just like, well, does that have theological roots?
Speaker 3 (27:17):
M yeah, So we would actually describe Bahai as a
monotheistic faith, so monotheistic just meaning one God. And this
would be different from something like Hinduism, where we'd say
there are many gods, but when it comes to Bahai,
we say it's monotheistic.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
So it's a belief in one God.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
But I know that sounds a little strange because we've
talked about already two different gods, one of those being
the Bob and the other being Baha'u Lah. But here's
how Bahai would understand this. Bahais would say that they
are strictly monotheistic, so they only believe in one God,
who is the creator and the sustainer of the universe.
(28:00):
But they would also teach that God's essence is unknowable
and it's inaccessible to human beings, and so what God
does is in God's kindness. God reveals himself through what
are called manifestations, and so these manifestations of God are
believed to be God on earth. And usually because nine
(28:23):
and nineteen are symbolic numbers in Islam as well as
in Bahai, that we see that there's nine manifestations of
God throughout history. Most of those are going to be
names that we're all familiar with because they are prophets
or deities and other religions. So, for instance, Abraham and
(28:45):
Moses are considered to be manifestations of God within Bahid
because they would say that thousands of years ago God
is going to essentially come down to earth to manifest
himself and to present his teachings for humankind, and so
that'd be through Abraham, and then hundreds of years go by,
(29:06):
and then Moses, and then hundreds of years go by.
And that could be to Zuriastor. Zuriastor is going to
be very famous deity for Bahind in Iran. So I'm
going to think about Zoroastrianism. If that's a term that
people have heard before. That's an ancient religious tradition connected
to Iran. Other names that we're all familiar with are
(29:27):
names like Buddha and of course Jesus and Mohammad. So
these also are understood to be manifestations of God. So
the Buddha comes and then thousands of years or hundreds
of years later, Jesus is going to appear in a
different part of the world, and then hundreds of years later,
Muhammad is going to appear in a different part of
(29:49):
the world. So that's how God is revealed through different manifestations. However,
Bahais would still argue that that's it's still one God.
We don't ultimately know this God in any perfect way. Instead,
what we have is that God is going to appear
and manifest throughout history and distinct ways, and specifically those
(30:10):
are some of the main manifestations of God.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
So you mentioned different teachers that are associated figures that
are associated with various religions, like the Buddha and Buddhism,
and Mohammad and Islam. So what about Christianity and Jesus Christ.
How do the Baha'i look at Jesus Christ? Who do
they say that he is?
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Baha's would say that Jesus is a manifestation of God.
So in that regard, he is God. So he's a
divine messenger, and he is just like all of the
other manifestations of God. He's revealing God's will for people
at that time and at that place, and so they
would acknowledge that he has a divine origin. They would
(30:57):
say that his teachings are accurate and they reflect what
God wants for humanity.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
They would say that he was born of a virgin.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
But they would be very different from us in a
classical historical tradition because they would not say that Jesus
is the unique incarnate son of God. They wouldn't say
that he's the second person of the Trinity, for instance,
and they wouldn't say that his death on the cross
is the only means of salvation for humans. So, in
(31:30):
other words, they would see Jesus as a manifestation of God.
But he's in a very long line of manifestations. He's
not the last revelation or the ultimate revelation, as we
Christians would say. And another thing to keep in mind
is we use specific terms to refer to Jesus, for instance,
as Son of God, and that's a term that could
(31:53):
be used in the Bahai tradition for people like Baha'u'llah,
So there are different terms also like the Massie I've
mentioned that before, but the Bob and Baha'ullah we're also
seen as a Messiah figure, so similar in some ways
in the sense that they would believe that Jesus is God,
but different from us as Christians because they would not
(32:14):
believe in him exclusively as God and that his death
on the cross is the means of our salvation.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
So to piggyback on some of the things that you
just mentioned about the Baha'i faith, I'd like you to
help us by responding to some YouTube comments we've received
on one of our videos about the Bahai faith that
we posted in the last year or so, and here's
(32:44):
one of them, so help us think through how to
respond to this. As a Christian quote. Bahais believe Baha'ullah
is not the final manifestation of God. More will come
roughly every one thousand years. We've used science and religion
as harmonious and affirm both the virgin birth and the
(33:06):
eschatological symbolism of the trinity, the Father as the Son,
the Son as a pure mirror, and the Holy Spirit
as its rays. Humanity often rejects divine messengers, yet all
manifestations from Christ to Moses to Muhammad reflect one source.
(33:27):
Bahatulah's teachings are meant for this age, just as Jesus
were for his time end quote. How would a Christian
respond to that and say, Yeah, it's not the same
as what you just said as far as Christianity is concerned.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Yeah, So for behinds, what they would say is that
these other manifestations of God, so for instance, Jesus coming
two thousand years ago to Israel, that that was appropriate
for that time and for that age. However, that's not
the fine revelation of God. There's going to be another
one that comes. And for behin as they would say,
(34:06):
hundreds of years later, Muhammad comes and Muhammad is mostly
in Saudi Arabia, and then we have about a thousand
years after that, the Bob comes to Iran and Baha'u'llah
comes to Iran as well, so they believe that there
are these different manifestations. And even when it comes to Baha'u'llah,
(34:26):
Bahaullah has a right. He has many writings as I mentioned,
but one of those is where he declares that there
is going to be another manifestation of God after him,
but that it'll be about a thousand years from now.
So there's this expectation in behind that we have a
manifestation of God and it's appropriate at that time and
(34:48):
in that place, but as time goes on that we
have newer revelations that are going to be more appropriate.
And as Christians, that's not what we believe. We believe
that Jesus provides the ultimate revelation of God. And as
the New Testament talks about, Jesus is the icon of God,
(35:09):
you know, He's the image of God. And so when
we're looking at Jesus, we are looking at who God is.
And so the will of God has been manifested to
us through the life and the ministry the teachings of
Jesus Christ, and so we're not looking to the future
for another manifestation of God to appear. Instead, we're looking
(35:30):
in the future for Jesus to reappear back on earth again.
And so for the Christian tradition, our eyes are always
gazing towards Jesus, and so when we go back and
to read the Old Testament, for instance, we're doing so
from the lens of knowing that Jesus is ultimately what
the Old Testament is referring to. It's preparing us for Jesus.
(35:52):
When we're looking at the New Testament, we see Jesus everywhere.
So in the Gospels, Jesus is here on earth teaching,
and then we look at the Life Letters in the
later part of the New Testament, for instance, by Paul,
Paul's talking about after Jesus's time how the Christian community
forms based off the teaching and ministry of Jesus, and
then throughout church history we're always looking forward at him.
(36:14):
So this is going to be one of the big
contrasts as Bahais would never be looking toward Jesus in
the future. They're going to be looking forward a new manifestation.
And even they're not even going to be looking at
Jesus in the past, because if we've had several manifestations
of God since Jesus and so for Bahid that's three.
So they would say that we had Muhammad, we had
(36:37):
the Bob, and we had bahau Lah, and the latest
of those is bahau Lah. So more or less we
should focus on the teachings of bahau Lah because those
are the more recent, which means they're the ones that
are most appropriate for us today. That's how they would
look at it, And of course, as Christians, we want
to stay focused on Jesus no matter where we are
(36:57):
in history.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
So are there other similarities and differences between Bahai and Christianity?
That was very helpful to help us understand what they
think about who Jesus was in terms of manifestations, and
then why they would want to focus on what they
would say as a recent manifestation. So are there other
things that we should know about ways in which the
(37:22):
Bahai faith is similar and different from Christianity.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Yeah, I would say a few similarities that we can
keep in mind. One of those we've talked about that
both Bahais and Christians believe in one God, so they're
both monotheistic religions. Also, in terms of the moral teachings
in general, there are a lot of similarities. So when
it comes to Bahai, they would have ethical principles like
(37:47):
love others and just as we do in Christianity. Thinking
about the Golden Rule, there would be the importance of
prayer within Bahai and Christianity. So for Bahai's there are
usually two prayers a day are actually there's two different
readings throughout the day, one in the morning and one
(38:07):
in the evening, and then there's usually a main prayer,
a centering prayer that's prayed usually between noon and the afternoon.
And there's also a belief in scripture, so that there's
holy writings, and there's also a belief in the afterlife,
so the Behives will have a concept of the afterlife
just as Christians do. But there are also lots of differences,
(38:31):
and it really is the differences that matter. So I've
talked about the differences in the nature of God. So
we as Christians believe that God is a trinity, so
that God is manifest in the Father's Son and.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Spirit all are God.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
So the unity and the Trinity, all of those coming together,
the one and the three. In terms of the nature
of Christ. We was also talked about that where although
Bahives would recognize Jesus as a manifestation of God, they
would differ from us as Christians because we believe that
Jesus is the unique person of God, fully human, fully
(39:06):
God and who atone for our sin through his death
and through his resurrection, and that of course relates to salvation.
We as Christians believe salvation is by grace, it's through
faith in Jesus, it's not through some other person. And
there's not something that we can do to earn the
love of God our salvation that we are relying upon
(39:29):
the finished work of Jesus Christ. And I'd say probably
the last thing to keep in mind too, is just
the finality of that revelation. So I've mentioned for Bahays,
they believe in progressive revelation, so they believe that the
latest manifestation of God was Baha'u'llah, but several hundred years
from now there'll be a new manifestation of God. For
(39:50):
us as Christians, we believe in the finality of Jesus's revelation.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Now, I want you to respond to another of the YouTube
comments we've rec on our video, and that is something
that kind of is emphasized by something you said at
the beginning of this podcast where you would kind of
characterize Bahai in one word as unity. So here's the
(40:16):
comment from YouTube quote. Bahais believe that God sends manifestations
like Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, and Bahulah to guide humanity. The
faith centereds on unity and rejects racism, sexism, and nationalism.
Its teachings aim to establish a global society founded on peace,
(40:41):
justice and equality for all. Unity over division is the
path forward end quote. So how would a Christian respond
to that? I mean to affirm things that they could
agree with, but also point out the uniqueness of Christianity.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
Yeah, and I would say that as Christians, we certainly
agree with parts of that. So there is a component
of Christianity which we are knowing that one day we're
going to have the fullness of truth. And you know,
as the Book of Revelation talks about where we're going
to see all nations, all nationalities, all languages together, we're
(41:17):
going to be united worshiping God. So there is something
beautiful about that in Christianity that there is a unity
that we also strive for. But that unity is not
that we're trying to bring everybody together. So that we
all have to be the same and how we look
or anything like that, but that we're unified in our
(41:38):
worship of God. When it comes to behind, they really
are focused on setting up a new world order. So
you'll see that kind of language. So one of the
things that I didn't mention is when it comes to
the authority of the Bahaive faith, there is what's called
the Universal House of Justice, and the Universal House of
(42:01):
Justice was established by Showgi Efendi, one of those figures
that I mentioned, and it really is the leadership. And
there's a document that was written about world peace, and
in that document it talks about that this really is
the central feature of the Bahaigh faith today, is that
it wants to have a world that's focused on technology,
(42:26):
the future, tolerance, equality, world peace, and.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Those kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
For us as Christians, as I mentioned, we're we are
focused on Jesus Christ. We're focused on Jesus is the
one who has established the Kingdom of God on earth,
and we as the Church are trying to be faithful
to the message of Jesus Christ. We're trying to share
the love of Christ with all of those around us.
And we're also praying and waiting for the day that
(42:54):
Jesus Christ will return on earth to set everything right
and to bring to gather all of the brokenness that
currently exists. But in terms of those principles of Behi,
it really is a focus today on values of the
secular culture. Not that there's anything wrong in and of
itself with wanting to have peace and wanting to have
(43:16):
a sense of equality, But as Christians, our aspirations are
really focused on God's Kingdom being here on earth and
one day God's Kingdom coming fully to earth and being
part of that, which means that we're going to look
at things differently from a secular worldview.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
You mentioned that there is a good possibility that we
could run into somebody who is behindh or tries to
syncretize behind with their faith, whether it's Christianity or Judaism
or something else. And so if someone one of our
listeners is running across such a person and wants to
share their faith in Christ with someone of the Bahigh faith,
(43:57):
what would you recommend that they do? And they say,
and are there some pitfalls that they should avoid? Are
the things they shouldn't say?
Speaker 3 (44:07):
Yeah, I would say there's a few things I'd recommend
that they would say and a few things that they
would not say. So one of those is certainly to
you know, as Jesus talks about, to love our neighbors
as ourselves, so to be loving, to be respectful in
general when we're sharing our faith with other people, if
we are going to be rude to them, then it's
(44:29):
just simply going to be an opportunity for them to
have assumptions about what Christians believe and how they act
and not listen. And so we want to be, you know,
as respectful as possible and know that we're interacting with
other human beings who are created in God's image. So
listen to the things that they talk about, but be
loving and respectful. The other is I would really focus
(44:52):
on Jesus Christ, because of course, as Christians, that's who
we are focused on, and to affirm the work of
Jesus Christ. To focus on the gospel message of what
Jesus came on earth to do, To focus on the
uniqueness of Jesus, to focus on him living on earth,
his literal death, his literal resurrection, and so behys in
(45:16):
general would want to say, yeah, we think that Jesus
was great, and we believe that Jesus taught amazing things,
and so I would just encourage them to go specifically
to certain passages in the Gospels. And as you look
through the Gospels, you certainly see that Jesus is not
(45:37):
just interested in moral teachings. So although he will talk
about loving others as ourselves, there's also very specific things
that he says about himself, and that we see throughout
the New Testament that there is an exclusivity that Jesus
demands that Jesus talks about we don't serve two masters.
(45:57):
If we do, we're going to have a divided house.
We have to serve God, which means that we can't
serve the things of this world. So as much as
Bahais would really want to focus in a more generic
understanding of who Jesus is, that he loved everybody and
he wanted everybody to get along, when you go deeper
in the Gospels, you see that Jesus is talking about
(46:19):
the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of God here on earth,
and the authority that he brings in his very clear
teachings which.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Are much more than just being nice.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
So in addition to that, I would say, there's some
things probably to avoid, and one of those is to
not assume that when we use terms like son of
God or Messiah or prophet, that that's always understood to
be exclusive to Jesus. So I mentioned earlier that these
are also terms that bhis would use, so they would
(46:54):
use a phrase like son of God or prophet or
messiah or almost one to refer to the bab or Baha'ullah.
So I just want to make sure those terms are
very specific, so when we're talking about Jesus as the
son of God, that we maybe use a different way
to refer to that so that we don't make a
confusion with Behayves. Another thing is I would say, don't
(47:18):
immediately feel the need to go on defense and to
say ah baha a lah, he was a liar or
nothing what he said is true. So something that's just
generally helpful to keep in mind is we know from
scripture and the Christian tradition that there is a thing
called natural revelation, and that is that God has revelation
(47:39):
that is a parent to all of humanity, that's not
just exclusive to Christians. So as Christians, we believe that
we're exclusive to supernatural revelation that is specific to the
work of Jesus here on earth. But in terms of
just looking around us, using our brains and looking at nature,
we can make certain assumption And the same is true
(48:01):
for people of Behih. They can make assumptions, they can
be accurate, and so don't just immediately dismiss everything that
they talk about. And then, you know, related to that,
I would just say in general, when you're working with
a Bahai, not to criticize, you know, their values on
(48:22):
world peace and tolerance, but to make a road in
road into how that relates to Jesus. So I would say,
don't dismiss what we might regard as secular values and
instead say, oh, when it comes to world peace, for instance,
you can have them share that and then make a
(48:42):
connection to Jesus and say, oh, you know, this is
what Jesus says about peace. And so as much as
you can be, you know, affirming what they're saying about
a concept, but redirecting them towards Jesus and how as
the Christian tradition, Jesus is saying very specific things that
we can share with them.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
Well. Thanks, This has been very fascinating and interesting I
didn't know that much about the Hai before you wrote
the article and we had this conversation. So now finally
I have a fun question for Derek. As I mentioned
at the beginning of the podcast, he is a managing
director of an educational travel company and that company does
(49:22):
some learning on location, which, by the way, would be
great for any of our listeners who are parents looking
for ideas for a gap year for their student. Maybe,
But out of all the different countries that you visited, Derek,
what's your favorite country to visit?
Speaker 3 (49:36):
Oh, it's such a great question. It's really hard. I
can give you two different answers real quickly. So I
would say, in terms of my favorite city, my favorite
city is Istanbul in Turkey. And the reason why I
love it is because it's just so full of energy
and life, and so the people are wonderful, the food
(49:57):
is excellent, the architecture is amazing. We see really two
religious traditions side by side. So we have the bulk
of the Christian Empire. So thinking about what's called the
Byzantine Empire, this says where Constantine lives and where much
of Christian history takes place. And then we also have
(50:17):
the backdrop of Islam and the Ottoman Empire that's going
to merge that we've been talking about the Ottoman Empire
in this episode where we're learning this is where Shia
Islam as well as the Bahai faith starts. So Istanbul
is definitely my favorite city. In terms of my favorite country,
(50:37):
I'm going.
Speaker 2 (50:37):
To go with Brazil. Brazil is also one of those places.
Speaker 3 (50:41):
It's full of life, the people are wonderful, the food's amazing,
and it just has such a distinct feel when you
go to Brazil. Most of their cities are along the water,
which really helps. It's beautiful and the people just are
a lot of fun and it's a beautiful language.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
And my humble opinion.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
In Brazilian Portuguese is the most beautiful language on earth.
And I just love everything about Brazil. You know, football
at which we call soccer, and the sport. It's just
it's so full of life. When I think about Brazil,
it's like it's a place that's bursting with life.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
Wow, that's probably going to make some of the folks
who like to travel look into it if they haven't
been to Brazil or to Turkey yet. Where is Donebul
is well? Thank you so much Derek for being a
guest again on the Postmodern Realities podcast.
Speaker 2 (51:31):
It's my pleasure. I love being here.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
You've been listening to episode four hundred and fifty eight
of the post Modern Realities podcast from the Christian Research Journal.
Today's guest was doctor Derek Cooper. He has written an
online exclusive feature article for the Christian Research Journal. His
article is called a Christian Exploration of the Bahai Faith
(51:56):
and you can read it for free without a paywall
at equip dot or that's e qu ip DOTRG. You
won't want to miss out on subscribing to the other
podcasts from the Christian Research Institute. We have the Bible
answer Man podcast, which is published Monday through Friday, with
(52:17):
the best of the week on Saturday. It's hosted by
CRI President Hank Handagraph and is available wherever you get
your favorite podcasts. In addition, Hank has a podcast called
Hank Unplugged. Hank takes you out of the studio and
into his study to engage in free flowing, essential Christian
conversations on critical issues with some of the most interesting,
(52:39):
informative and inspirational people on the planet. And you won't
want to miss out on the brand new podcast from
the Christian Research Journal. Christian Research Journal Reads presents audio
versions of Christian Research Journal articles. It was a print
incarnation of almost forty five years, now on the web
(53:00):
as you know, with new articles every single week, so
you won't want to miss these audio articles of some
of our most popular and most accessed articles on our
website equip dot org.
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