P&S ModCast 355 - Revisiting the Gauge - Primary & Secondary Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Typical control. That's right exactly.And it looks like a Fisher just said
something that a NDIA just expired.Great, and there's something that's available right
now. Actually it's Jeremy of Mossbergjust said, yeah, India's expired.
It's available now. It appears tobe a very short It looks like a

(00:23):
breaching gun, magafed breaching shotgun.Interesting, Yeah, is it so not?
Non birds had a traditional pistol grip. Yeah, this looks like a
breacher set up, especially with themuscle devices. Yeah, the standoff.

(00:44):
Yeah, I was I saw something. Oh my god, I'm having a
senior moment already. Blanket on thename of that at R shotgun. Uh
genesis, Oh, I saw theywere advertised in a breach or set up
for theirs. That's a neat gun. Keep adding that to the list.

(01:10):
And if they watched john Wick,that's the one he runs around dragons breathing
everybody in that top down scene injohn Wick four. Gotcha, gotcha,
and we're back. Sorry about that. I gotta disappear every once in a
while to keep the lathe running.So and I have that same issue with

(01:30):
a almost three year old have torun away really quick, you're back beat
them up. I get that.I get that though he can't he can't
pick the lock in this office,so that's good. He can get every
other lock in the house. Wellno, so yeah, it looks like

(01:53):
a proprietary magazine. It probably wouldhave to be m I'm sorry, what
are you talking about? Nothing?Oh okay, so an NDA just expired
for it appears to be a Mossbergbreacher. Oh gotcha. Yeah, traditional

(02:13):
pistol grip muzzle device, magafed toprail. Yeah, can you put a
stock on it? I can't tell. The profile I'm seeing is only it's

(02:35):
only a side profile, so Ican't tell if there's some way to attach
something to the end. Oh interesting, possibly as I as I look at
a closer picture of this, Ohyou see it too? Then, now
that I'm seeing what I'm seeing,it definitely eleans another a couple of vague

(03:00):
then yes, the safety is interesting. Safety is like an AAR safety.
Really okay, hold on, letme let me text this to your Matt
since Yeah, yeah, please onthe facebooks. Yeah, apparently persona non
grat out of the old Zuck.Well let's see here. Well, I

(03:23):
can just do this. Oh,Hey there you go. Okay, Yeah,
that's definitely a different back end,and I've seen that on other breaching
guns. That looks like exact pluga stalk into the back of it.
Almost. Yeah, the selector iskind of cool. Yeah, I mean

(03:44):
that's always been one of the downfallsof pistol grip moss bergs, is that
top manute safety. Yeah exactly.That is fascinating, and I like that
little shroud to keep it from gettingbumped off a safe. Yeah. Yeah,
it looks thought out. Yeah,it looks like somebody puts some thought

(04:04):
out who knew? And I'm luckwhatever you call that foreign? Yeah cool?
Well yeah, so I guess ifthe NDA is done, m and

(04:28):
Jeremy, what your bed? Becausehe's in England right now, that's pretty
acceptable. I'm in Pennsylvania and I'mabout ready to go to bed. So
I'm in utahn. I just gotup, oh, about an hour and
a half ago. You're working midnights, now, how long is that?

(04:50):
For four months? All right?And then mid December I'll be day shift.
All right. The it always rotatethrough on that pattern, yeah,
day afternoon grave sure. Well,should we just start talking about shotguns stuff
because we are we have. Imean, what else is there to talk

(05:14):
about? Only shotguns? So I'lljust do the quick little intro stuff and
we'll take you from there, andit's episode three fifty five. We did
three fifty four last night with MikeMitsubishi and Chad Albrecht talking about r armor
stuff and that was That was agood discussion. That was a lot of

(05:35):
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Everyone, Matt l if you're herewith Primary and Secondary Welcome to podcast.
Today's episode number is three fifty five. We're going to be revisiting the

(08:33):
gauge. The last couple episodes thatwe did, we've been talking about Mossberg
specifically, some things came up thatI kind of thought, you know what,
why don't we have a additional shotgunepisode to kind of talk about the
state of the shotgun. It seemslike since the first real shotgun episode we

(08:54):
had with Matt and Rob, thingshave kind of changed as far as people's
perceptions of them. It seems likethings have become a little bit more positive
regarding them, so and people aremore accepting, They're they're listening, and
that's kind of cool. Why don'twe talk about, Okay, what about
Ammo selection, what about all thesethese some new accessories or new options?

(09:16):
Also with training? Has anything changedwith training? So we're gonna talk about
that stuff. Today's September fourteen,twenty twenty three. They're gonna be some
panelists are going to probably come inand out. Right now, we have
a couple of guys who kind ofno shotguns just a little bit. My
background. My background is law enforcementwith very minimal shotgun training. That being

(09:39):
said, I've actually taken a shotgunclass though, so that already puts me
in the whatever percentile. The classthat I happened to take was with the
Hot Boys, and let me justtell you, even if Matt wasn't here
right now, if you have anyinkling or if you have any desire to
take a shotgun class, going withthese guys, going with the thoughts was

(10:03):
absolutely fantastic. I took that classbecause I found that shotgun was it was.
Shotgun skill sets were probably my weakestof all the different varieties of firearms
I have, So I thought,well, why don't I take it on
head Why don't I take it headon and actually take a class, And
my opinion and the usefulness for meof shotguns has increased dramatically. It's definitely

(10:28):
not a dead gun, a deadoption, as a lot of people may
say. It can also be anan expensive and I can't even talk,
and an effective firearm, which isa very good thing. Don't discount them.
Yeah, the last couple episodes wedid with Mossberg, really good discussion

(10:52):
was had and it was cool toget the feedback about it. Hearing people
say, yeah, this is thisis making me rethink what my opinions are
of shotguns and Mossburg specifically. ButI think we're just going to start talking
about shotguns. We already had alittle bit prior to starting and that's probably
going to be our grand intro.But I have some some topics written down

(11:16):
for us to talk about. Ithink we're gonna officially start the show.
So Matt, what do you havefor us? And before these guys start
talking, I'm going to say myfavorite thing. Make sure you support those
sources that you have found to bebeneficial. As these guys are talking,
pay attention to who they represent,pay attention who they are, the brands

(11:37):
they bring up, pay attention allthat stuff. If these guys are providing
something that's useful to you, youprobably should find them on social media and
give them some follows, give themsome likes. If they're providing something that
may change your perspective of something forthe positive, probably needs to share.
Social media in general, Instagram,Facebook, even YouTube aren't working in our

(12:00):
favor. When when I when Isay our, I mean people that are
interested in firearms, people that areinterested in firearms rights. All that stuff
is being pretty much squashed and muted. So that's where you, the listener,
comes in. By sharing this kindof stuff helps it organically grow,
and you know there are still thingsthat are that are hindering it. I

(12:20):
might share something about one of theseguys and I might get one like,
whereas if I talk about something completelydifferent, it's going to get a ton
of likes. And it's not becausepeople don't like it. It's because people
don't see it and there's an artificialsomething going on getting throttled. So as
a listener, pay attention to whothese guys represent and support those sources that

(12:43):
you have found to be beneficial.Matt, Hi, I'm Matt. I
like shotguns. I like teaching shotguns. Sus, how long have you been
shooting shotguns? I'm pretty sure Iwas born within eight seventy in my hands.
Yeah, you know, I justI grew up hunting with them.

(13:07):
I grew up shooting them. Igrew up enjoying them. They've always been
kind of part of the culture whereI grew up, even more so part
of the culture in my family.Like most of my friends grew up hunting
squirrels with the twenty two, Igrew up hunting squirrels with a twenty gauge.
It's just always been a part ofmy life. Yeah, yeah,

(13:33):
And who do you represent? I, along with my dad, who started
it, we are SIMTAC consulting.We do primarily shotgun training. We do
teach some other other things like pistol, occasional car being stuff, and we
even teach US Safari rifle classes.You can the other side. You can

(13:54):
see the we like to do theAfrica hunting thing. But primarily we're known
for shotgun work. Heck yeah,heck yeah, and shotgun especially recoil mitigation
and CQB techniques and I guess youcall it stance CQB techniques for shortening the

(14:15):
shotgun up and use it more effectively, and its bread and butter close quarters.
YEA cool am. Hi, I'mAdam. I own Aretus Industries,
which we make shotgun accessories and soby extension, you know, we do
a lot of training, a lotof shooting. I remember the first time

(14:39):
I showed one of my prototypes toChris Fry and some instruction from him,
just the way that I had someshells set up in the shell carrier.
He says, okay, well,let's let's turn some of these around and
make them look like we know whatwe're doing and so so so ever since
then, I was like, allright, we'll make sure we know what

(15:00):
we're doing. So attending training classeshas been you know, one of the
one of the high priorities. Andyou know, with a bunch of different
instructors too, there's so much toteach, so much to learn with shotguns.
You know, I'm sure that youknow, one of the challenges of
Matt and Rob and Steve and everybodyelse that does it is trying to figure

(15:22):
out what am I actually going toteach in this limited time frame because there's
a lot of different directions that youcan go, and you know, some
guys do a better job at itthan others. And you know, generally
the guys that do a better jobat it, you hear their names over
and over again in terms of who'srecommended. But yeah, yes, I

(15:43):
mean, you know, do alot of shooting. It's it's kind of
nice now that I've got a coupleof employees, they get to share in
the workload in terms of putting alot of rounds down range. And you
know, this summer especially, youknow, testing new products and different things.
You know, they've been getting alittle bit more of a workout,
which is good. It's it's alsofun even in just like the last couple

(16:07):
of range trips with them. Uh, you know, sometimes it's a little
more casual and you know, we'lljust kind of we're just there to put
the rounds down range. But aswe've gone more and more, it's like,
okay, well we're gonna we're gonnamake sure that these guys are getting
some you know, not that I'man instructor, but you know a little
bit of critique and advice and differentthings here and there, and you know,

(16:32):
things that I notice other students andother classes. You know, good
things and bad things that I cankind of then spot with these guys good
things and bad things and kind ofhelp, you know, help guide them.
But yeah, it's shotguns are fun. I mean, they're they're just
so devastating and powerful that you knowwhen you when you let some rounds go,

(16:53):
you know what they're about. Andyou brought up different trainers. One
of the things we discussed last night. So we had a discussion with Mike
Mahowski also known as Mike Mitsubishi andcha Chad Albrecht. We were talking about
armor classes and we were talking aboutthere are there are multiple options, and

(17:14):
there are multiple really good options,and you can take one from each of
those instructors. You can take aclass from each of those instructors and pull
different things from each one of them. So one class might not be sufficient.
Going just sticking with one instructor mightnot be sufficient. So if shotguns
are your thing, or even handgunor anything, don't focus on just the

(17:36):
one single instructor. It's not abad idea. Expand, now that being
said, there are some There arecertain instructors that I've gone back to multiple
times because you know what, Ididn't get all the material. I focused
on a couple of little tidbits,and I'm coming back to pick up more
or to reinforce some of the someof the concepts that I that I was
able to get. So, yeah, Matt, along those lines, when

(17:59):
I was a kid, probably Idon't know ten or so. Dad had
just started teaching with Ken Hackerthorne.Teaching has started off as Ken's AI,
and he was going to take atraining class somewhere, to take a class
teacher class. And in my childlikelack of wisdom, I said, Dad,
why are you taking a class.You're a teacher, you're an instructor.

(18:22):
And he just looked at me andhe said, son, no one
can teach you everything, but everyonecan teach you something. And I have
tried to follow that later in life. Yeah. Well, and that goes
kind of to what Adam said whenhe's like, well, we take him
out, not really instructor even beingif you're well versed, you don't need

(18:45):
to be instructor to pass on goodinfo. Adam seeing been into enough classes
and seen enough people teach, andknows enough material that I have no doubt
that he's helping those dudes out absolutely, and if anything, he's helping them
spend more money exactly as it shouldbe. I'm just I'm just saving myself
some fatigue is all that it reallyis. I mean, well, then

(19:08):
there's a method called push pull,you know. It's it actually is kind
of funny. You know. Therate we're going this at this point is
basically like a case of slugs arrangetrip. You know, I did one.
I did one on my own today. I did one on my own
two days ago. Uh, andyou know, I'll post about it and

(19:30):
everybody, I don't know if they'reI guess they're being seriously, So,
oh, how's your shoulder doing,I'm like, my shoulders fine, I'm
doing it again in a couple ofdays. Like it's not a big deal
like you know, use some useproper technique taught by guys that understand it
and know how to teach it.Uh, you know, there's guys that
don't teach it there for whatever reasons. There's guys that may not understand it

(19:56):
well enough to teach it and sothey don't, which that's you know,
that is what But uh yeah,I mean I'm shooting sixteen hundred ft per
second slugs, you know, prettymuch as quick as I can just to
get them down range. And theproper technique. I remember before I ever
took any class, I think Ishot like, oh man, I mean

(20:18):
like ten or fifteen slugs, andlike I was done. I was like
I can't, I can't ever dothis again. And now it's like that's
now it's you know, no bigdeal. That's like ten seconds. It's
like earlier this summer when we wereout at Adam come out to our range
and we were testing out some ofhis stuff and we just were hammering stuff
down range and I was I'd beenhelping Dad clean out part of what we

(20:41):
call the pile, and I hada big rubber made container full of just
random shot shells, I mean,everything from the lowest low brass bird shot
up to like Magnum number four buckand we were just grabbing handfuls out of
it, stuffing them in guns andlazing away. And we made it through

(21:02):
most of that tub in that afternoon, And honestly, the biggest issue was
didn't have a sling on the gun, so my arms got kind of tired
from holding it up all day.That was about it. Did you see
the adam d You see the whatchat just said? What someone just said

(21:22):
that they need to cook you upwith someone for R and D of slugs
kill two birds with one stone.Yeah, yeah, that'd be a that'd
probably be a wise move. Soanother thing that just came up in chat
that I thought was interesting. SoGluck has their plate system. Are are
you going to make a plate systemso you can use a universal crumb and

(21:44):
throw it on any shotgun? Doyou have an adapter plate and then you
throw the crome on top? Imean, I can I can see how
appealing that would be because we wantmore. Probably not gonna I'm probably not
gonna go down that route. No, I mean, you know, it's
one of those things where the entireyou know, it's in the name and

(22:07):
it's in the product itself. Theentire idea is being able to co witness
things, and when you get intothat realm, there's a whole lot of
challenges. You know. One ofthe one of the simple ones is in
the early days, you know,I started some quick R and D on
doing a chrome for the Tragicon MROand it, you know, after one

(22:33):
quick prototype, it was this opticjust sits too high to co witness with
any regular factory front site. Youcould get it to work if you have
an inch and a half tall frontsite and everything is kind of out of
whack. So it's like, well, I mean, yeah, I could
make a direct amount for an MROthat would you know, more or less
work, but it doesn't really fitinto the idea behind it. And likewise,

(23:02):
you start getting into different adapter platesand you start stacking things on top
of each other. You know,most shotgun sites they're pretty stinking low.
You know, even most even theghost ring sights, which is with a
crumb rear sight height is kind ofdesigned around. Even those are pretty low.

(23:22):
So you start adding just very veryminor amounts of of height to it,
and you can start running into challengesto say the least. Well then,
and on top of that, thepotential recoil, especially out of a
pump is going to it's it's considerabledepending on the load because you don't have
any reciprocating mass or anything like withan R things are moving inside. No,

(23:45):
it just goes right into you andthen you pump it. And so
adding that that potentially more vicious recoilthat can hurt some things that are stacked
on other things, stacked on otherthings. So yeah, play system.
No, Honestly, I wonder ifthe semi autos aren't worse with the with

(24:07):
the back and forth recoil or theback and forth momentum impulse. I know,
and it's probably just because I grewup shooting pump guns and I have
so much more time on pump guns. But like semis, I won't say
they recoil more, but they're jumpier. It's probably what the old guys that
started transitioning from revolvers to autos complainedabout, or like, it's not recoil

(24:30):
on the way I would expect itto, you know, it's just something
you gotta get time on. Ido think it probably adds something to the
back and forth, bouncing, looseningscrews and that sort of thing. Yeah,
well, now Cody's here, notthat he's mad, presence known.

(24:51):
I'm listening. I'm getting schooled up. Gotcha, gotcha. So, first
thing I have are those mag fedAAR type shotguns. I'm seeing them.
People are posting them, not necessarilyany groups I'm in. Are you guys
seeing these in class? Are anyof them worth anything? Are they falling

(25:11):
apart when they go on the line? Are there any that stand out that
say, you know what, thisisn't too bad. I haven't seen any
of the R pattern guns come throughclass. We've seen a couple of the
AK pattern guns. And within theconfines the AMMO they like. Some of

(25:32):
them run, some of them don't. The Chinese ones don't seem to run
well at all. The Saigoes orIffy in need tuning, and the veppers
generally run okay, but sometimes theydon't. Yeah, but I haven't seen
any of them one I do.So A funny story some years ago,

(25:56):
probably two three years ago, Dadand I were teaching a class in Amarillo,
Texas, wonderful place, great steakhouses, and we had a fellow sign
up and come out to the classwho's a gunsmith at an outfit called Dissident
Arms. They do a lot ofthree gun specific competition a K shotgun stuff.

(26:19):
And you know, he actually messagedme beforehand. I said, is
it okay to bring, you know, box fed guns to the class,
And I'm like, yeah, that'sfine. I mean there's some of the
reloading stuff that may not quite translate, right, you know, you welcome
to tinker around and play with,you know, whatever you need to do
to get value out of it.But he showed up and he had a

(26:41):
pair of twelve inch SBS ve Eppertwelves, and much to everybody, including
my own surprise, they ran allclass very shocked at that. And so,
in a moment of silliness, abouta decade ago, I had bought
a Vepper twelve. I took itout to the Clay's range once and shot

(27:04):
some sporting plays with it, whichwas an exercise and futility with RpK sites,
and it's just been gathering dust inthe back of my safe and I
thought, man, I ought todo something with that. And these guys
actually seem to be able to getthe guns to run. So I've been
talking to that guy, Jonathan's hisname, good dude. I've been talking
to him for about a year andthen finally bit the bullet form one the

(27:29):
gun sent it off to him,and here we have. Here we go,
a fourteen inch barreled vepper twelve withside folding stock, with the five

(27:53):
round mag This thing will fit ina tennis racket back and that's awesome.
Now there's I'm still kind of tinkeringwith how I like it set up.
This is not their stock adapter.Theirs doesn't fold, and it sits higher

(28:15):
to use with the optic. Iwanted it to fold, so I bought
a separate one and just put acheek riser on the stock. I had
them cut off the rear sight andthey well to pick rail up there so
I could put a red dot onit. And they chopped the barrel and
tune the gas port. They actuallyeven tuned the magazines. I had I
send them my twelve round magazines andthey cleaned them up, trewed them up,

(28:38):
kind of tweaked the follower geometry tobe more reliable. But now,
one of the things that they toldme when they chopped this thing was that
by chopping the barrel, you kindof reduce your window of reliable loads.
So this thing really likes hot stuff. If you get some like three and

(29:00):
a quarter dram doveloads runs like scaldedass ape with them. It will not
run eight pellet flight control. Itwill run nine pellet low recoil. But
I'm thinking it's probably close to theedge of the envelope. So if I,
if I ever do decide to lookat this as a as a serious

(29:22):
use gun, it'll probably get fedfull power L one twenty seven. Yeah,
it's an eat little gun. Imean, it's a it's a concept.
You know. I grew up withpump guns. I grew up with
tube fed guns. This is mejust kind of experimenting and tinkering around and
saying is this viable? Is thisviable for this application? You know,

(29:47):
and not gaming, not ipsick,not three gun, but an actual like
defensive shotgun. Is it viable forthat? I don't know yet. I
haven't had enough time with it,but it's going to be interesting to see.
And the magazine isn't a traditional rockand lock like a normal AK.
It's no the saigas, and Ithink most of the Chinese clones are rock

(30:11):
and lock. The veppers are juststraight in now they're still released like that,
but yeah, they just go rightin the magwell interesting. So yeah,
and I've got I've got some twelveround mags that stick out the bloody
here, and then I've got thisone factory five rounder. I'd like to

(30:32):
try an eight rounder, but thefactory eight rounders are like one hundred and
twenty bucks a pop because obviously youcan't get Russian stuff now. So I'm
tinkering with maybe cutting down one ofmy twelve rounders to an eight and seeing
how that plays. I think thatmight be the sweet spot for form factor
versus capacity. But I mean,honestly, my favorite eight seventy has a

(30:56):
five shot magazine. This is afive shot magazine. Yeah, how long
ago did you buy that? Igot this thing? Oh, ten or
eleven years ago? When they firststarted bringing veppers into the country. I
got a good friend of mine,it's a serious ak nerd, and he's
like, man, you gotta getone of these, And I'm like,
okay, whatever, it's a shotgun, why not? And like I said,

(31:18):
I took it out to the Clay'srain shot around a sporting Clays with
the twelve round mag in it.Man, the fuds did not know what
to think of that, and yeah, it was a neat lark. Yeah,
you know, neat curiosity. Andthen I went in the back of
the safe and gathered dust for adecade. Now, so people that are

(31:41):
watching this and thinking, oh,I need to get one, okay,
good luck? Yeah the Yeah.When I shipped this off to Dissident I,
they asked me at the post office, you know, how much insurance
do you want on that? AndI'm like, all you got? Because
yeah, they're you can't really getthe veppers much anymore, I don't think,

(32:07):
And yeah, I don't know.I haven't. I haven't really delved
into what the availability is the AKshotgun market because I had one and I
didn't use it much. Yea,But yeah, that's it's neat. I
need to take it out to oneof the local shotgun matches and shooting the
open division for once and get stompedby all the guys that use them on

(32:30):
a regular basis. That's cool.Mad, are you going to come up
to CQB brutality? But what yeah? Nice, Yeah, there's a CQB
brutality. They're doing it like atwo gun match. It's a it's one
of the enranged TV things up ath It'll be a Desert or Not Desert

(32:51):
Women's up in St. George.What is that SUPs? Okay, Yeah,
they do a lot of their theirmatches up there. Now I hadn't
heard about it, So now comeon out, man, we're gonna be
we're part of We're part of that. We're gonna be running a little van
comp team. We're gonna do thepump gun division. It's gonna be cool.

(33:12):
Oh that's let me know, definitely. Yeah, we're gonna be putting
stuff up. So anyone who's listeningto I mean November, it's the weekend
of Veterans Day. So it's aFriday, Saturday and Sunday. But you
only you can shoot all the stagesin one day. So we'll be doing
We'll have some stuff on the prizetable. So we're gonna go shoot Sunday
and hang out for the for theaward ceremony and stuff. Hey, it's

(33:36):
like a Doom themed shoot with shotguns. And then they'll have a subgun division
two so just a little nine milepistol caliber carbans but it's a two gun,
a three gun or just subgun match, so it'll be pretty cool.
Yeah, you can run your vepperout there, it'd be cool. Well,

(34:00):
if you guys are doing it,i'd have to run a bang gun.
I mean that's just well, sendit to them quick. They're chrome
lined, so we can't touch those, the saigas and the veppers or chrome
lined, so that's that's a problem. But it's still like they just eat
up the tooling, just like youknow the Italian barrels too. So we've

(34:22):
done a couple. There's there's likethree saigas out there, the thing barrels
on them, and they run great. They just got to keep them clean.
I mean, that's always a tradeoff with semi auto shotguns is how
long you can have between cleaning becausethey're so dirty. That's where those thirteen
to ones runs so well with theself cleaning gas system and you know the
nine forties running sort of the ourthree guns style stuff. It's scraping that

(34:42):
tube every time you foul it,every time you press the trigger, but
as the piston reciprocates, it scrapesthat stuff and eggs exhausts it to the
atmosphere. Yeah, that's interesting.We haven't seen any of the nine forties
come through class yet. I'm kindof interested to see how they do when
when we yeah, they're great,man, I mean we shot you.
You were there at the first summitand who was running that? Uh Evy

(35:07):
had Fishers had Fisher's gun and wasrunning it and it seemed to do okay.
Yeah, and Fisher was say,don't have any issues with it?
Right, Well, it took apound of flesh from her. But that's
that's just shotguns. Well, that'sbecause we know what, we know what.
I'm anxious to get mine going.I've I've had a test unit for

(35:31):
R and D purposes for a littlebit and it's unfortunately to date, met
the same fate as many other unfiredshotguns in the safe. But you know,
there's there's a couple of things I'vegot in mind in particular for that
which are kind of on the horizonof going forward. How half of me
wanted to say, like, man, maybe I'll just bring that out and

(35:52):
in a couple of weeks to seea matt just to see you can see
one go through a class. Butespecially here in Jeremy talk a bit about
the you know, the nine fortiesand just kind of the direction that Mossburg
has been taken lately. I'm itseems pretty promising for sure. I see

(36:13):
one of the Revolver Degenerate says thatthat looks like a product improved Abominator Owen
would approve. So funny you mentionedthat I actually did show that to Larry
in person earlier this year, andI had to autographed one of my magazines,
as it should be. So anyoneelse have anything on mag fed shotguns,

(36:39):
semi or pump I wish I did. I've never I've never gotten the
mess with one. I mean,some of some of the newer ones looked
pretty interesting, for sure, butI mean I've I've always just kind of
kept my distance because of the rowliability issues with them previous in the earlier

(37:00):
days. Anyway, So yeah,I did get to shoot one of the
Genesis twelve ar pattern guns recently atthe Recoil had a can con event up
here in Phoenix. I think it'sto shoot a lot like a magazine or
two through it, and it wassuppressed, and it had a whole lot
of blowback in my face, gota lot of carbon and vasoline sprayed back

(37:22):
in my face. But I meanthat's just suppressors in general. That happens,
but it was controllable. And Imean the ones they had there,
they're putting a lot of rounds throughthem and they seem to hold up reasonably
well. So small sample, butif they can make you know, the

(37:43):
AAR is A is a more ergonomicplatform than the AK just it is.
So if they can make an ARpattern mag fed shotgun run, that's going
to be, in my opinion,better than an AK pattern shotgun just from
a from a user interface perspective.Yeah, you're you're absolutely right, and
I agree with you. And onthe Genesis note, those so those guns

(38:06):
that you shot, they actually hadGenesis barrels. Those are Vancount barrels in
those Genesis So we've we've been workedwith them for a while. They're great
dudes. They have a lot ofengineering in house. They were actually behind
that RAZ twelve. Remember the rimList twelve gauge they tried to get.
Yeah, so one of their designers, I believe, I don't know one
hundred percent, which I know,Teadors. They're a guy. Now,

(38:29):
he spent a lot of time onthat magazine and it's it's interesting how you
pull a rimmed cartridge out of amagazine and then stick it in the chamber
parallel, because the problem they werehaving was it tipping over and hitting on
the crim And so their magazine hasa ton of technology in it. And
I've I'm really excited about their littleten round drum because it's it sticks out

(38:50):
as much as the five round stickdoes, but it's a little tight little
drum. And yeah, Genesis,in my book, it's it's good to
go. It's a really great gun. It's just expensive for now. I
mean, I think it's you canyou can drop that twelve gauge upper on
any DPMs Gen one pattern lower andyou've got yourself a twelve gauge with the
same serial number as your three Oeight. You know, take take that

(39:10):
with what you will. I mean, we'll see how how stuff goes in
the United States as far as registration. But uh, yeah, it's a
cool. It's cool thing to haveif you swap out the upper. But
you know, it's like two grand. And the magazines are proprietary, but
they should be because they're great andthey work in that little three o eight
mag well, So now Genesis isgreat. That got a little short recoiling
system on there, really cool handguard. The barrel free floats in the center

(39:35):
of it, so they can putmuzzle extensions on there, like you know,
threaded taper adapters and breacher devices andall that other stuff. So you
know how they can put a canon a on a recoiling barrel like that.
That really cool. Yes, Soit doesn't it doesn't touch the barrel.
It's it's on the hand guard.So the barrel comes through. There's
a little tiny forcing cone at theend of the that cap on the four

(39:58):
end where the barrel reciprocates through.Their about a quarter inch and so there's
another quarter inch forcing cone. Andfor that reason, those things shoot really
tight patterns. I mean, they'vegot especially at the can on there the
what are they running the JK can, It's got those little trumpets on the
inside, and it's it's sort oflike, you know, six different forcing
cones stacked in front of there.Because that's why you had that vassoline in

(40:20):
your face. They use that asan oblative inside the can and make it
quieter. And but that shot columnstraveling through there, and every time it
travels through one of those trumpets.It gets pushed back together, so it's
almost elongating the barrel, and aslong as it's not deforming the pelle it's
it's they shoot really well. SoI do like this, But one go
ahead, Matt. I was gonnasay, it's a neat, neat system,

(40:44):
and I think there's some a lotof potential in there from what I've
seen. I'm kind of waiting tosee how they shake out in the long
term. But I mean, asfar when it comes to the mechanics of
how shotguns work, I default thecode. He's a piece and Adams they
know more about the engineering. I'mlike, I do not. But but

(41:05):
Cody is you're on the right trackof Cody, I mean, is are
too kind. I'm like Oddball andKelly's heroes, you know, I just
write them. I don't know whatmakes them work. Because do you think
there's any chance one of those mightmake its way over to Thundersticks on it?
This fall? This fall we canbring a couple. Yeah, you
can play. Yeah, be interestingto check it out. Yeah, we
don't have the john Wick version.That SBM is the new one. And

(41:29):
at BM mean breacher model, notbow movement. You can give you can
give them a hard time. Thanks, thanks for the clarifications. I know
he sometimes you gotta say these things, but yeah, the breacher model has
it's like a it's got a counterweightand it's really interesting. It's sort of
like a mad deuce. It's it'sgot a sprung counterweight to make the thing

(41:51):
run when there's something touching the muzzle, and it's it's really cool. It's
it's a lot of cool engineering,especially on that magazine. And so yeah,
we can bring them out. Genesisisn't like as a company, they're
not going to be at this eventthis year, but I'm hoping next year
I'll be able to get them andLangden involved and uh, you know some
other people that were missing, justto just get representation across from everybody.

(42:12):
But yeah, Genesis would be areally cool and Cody is their main guy
over there. He's the guy yousee on camera and just something about shotguns
and codies, I guess, butit's got to get confusing at all,
not at all. So but yeah, I just want to say, because
Matt was asking kind of wrapping upyou know, the stick fed stuff our
you know, I've been with Vancomlike I said on the payroll for eighteen

(42:34):
years, and every time we've wealways kind of talk about stick fed stuff
and we've got to you know,clear our math out spit. But really,
to me, the really short stuffwhen I saw the you know,
the the Cerbus super shorties and allthose things, the limitation of a tube
fed magazine is that the barrel lengthand the magazine capacity are linked together if

(42:54):
they're going to be the same length. So I always thought like, hey,
if we can do us be asuper shorty with the little Pyga magazine,
that would be awesome because then it'sa tiny little package. You know,
you got yourself a little master key, and it's not the capacity is
not limited by the length of thegun. You've got a whole another dimension
to add, add space two.So yeah, on the subject of capacity,

(43:20):
I mean one, twelve gage shellsare big. It's just the way
of the world. And so likeI said, my my, this thing's
the size of like a twenty fiveround three or eight mag but it holds
five rounds of twelve gauge. SoI've always kind of thought that it would

(43:43):
be interesting for these mag fed gunsif somebody would modernize the twenty gauge.
You know, if you get atwenty gauge with like an eight pellet number
one buckload plated flight control wad.I mean, I've wanted that for years,
But you start throwing it in aboxmag gun, you've got shorter mags,

(44:06):
lighter mags, lighter gun. Ithink that could be an interesting way
forward, But the problem is it'sa it's a chicken in the egg thing.
Nobody wants twenty gauge because there's nogood defensive AMMO for it compared to

(44:27):
twelve and nobody makes good defensive AMMOfor it because nobody wants twenty gauge.
And I think that's just awful becausetwenty gauge has so much potential. If
somebody would do a proper reduced recoileight pellet number one buck flight control load
and put it in a lightweight shotgun, I think that would open things up

(44:52):
dramatically for smaller framed people. AndI think it would have great occasions for
things like boxmag guns. Well itkind of no I agree with you,
but on the boxmag like you're theshort shells for twelve gage kind of solved
that problem as far as the smallerframe shooters or you know, I mean,

(45:14):
Matt, you ran that gallery gunat hand, con that little five
ninety s that we had as asuppressor on it. Yeah, And so
to me, as far as thetraining implications and smaller frame shooters or people
not wanting to have to you know, a nine pound twelve gage for three
days through in a shotgun class,a five ninety s with short shells kind
of solves that problem too. Andjust to push back on the boxmag I

(45:36):
don't think it would add that muchextra capacity. The diameter between twelve gage
and twenty gage isn't too huge.And because we're going in this vertical space
instead of underneath the magazine tube,I think the short shells would give you
more more you know, serving sizesin a given space than a boxmag would.
That's possible just because the double stacksand everything. Like you guys saw

(45:59):
the the photos today of the ofthat Mossberg with the with the R selector
and the box magazine. Did youguys see that? Yeah, No,
we don't know what you're talking about. Not a clue that NDA's gun.
It's all right, Yeah, wegot we got the clear from Jeremy.
But yeah, that's exactly what Ihad in mind when when I first saw

(46:21):
those Cerbus super shorties. It waslike, if we could stick a box
mag on this, you could actuallygo take a bunch of doors down with
this. And uh so, yeah, Mossberg did it. They got cool
guards on the controls and everything.But their magazine is awesome. It's really
really good. It's over engineered.I've never seen a stoppage on it now,
I've only seen about a thousand roundsthrough it. Matt, at our

(46:43):
our old secret shooting spot out inthe Prescott Forest, we burned down a
thirty round or sorry, a twentyround mag, a ten round mag and
a five round mag and we couldn'tget a stoppage. It was we had
literally we had four cases of AMMOthat we as, me, Richard and
my little brother and we all justshot it. And yeah, it was
it was great cool to see yougot them dirty, got them hot in

(47:05):
those magazines still ran. So didyou say twenty round, Yeah, they've
got a twin round. Yeah,they standing monopod pretty much. Yeah,
for pretty much. You know,talking about those short shells, Cody,
one of the things that I wouldlike to see with that, especially to
address the whole smaller statue shooter thing, so that that that Mossburg that you

(47:28):
had out of can come that Ishot, it's a regular size Mossberg.
If you were to take that gunand shrink the receiver to be the proportionate
length for those short shells, witha shorter bolt throw, shorter overall length,
you could cut out some weight,you could cut out some some manipulation
movements. I think that could reallybring out the potential in those shells.

(47:52):
I agree, and we're I Soit's not like it's not out there yet,
but we plan to do one becauseit's really not that tough to to
make that action cycle shorter, butto shorten the receiver it's a big it's
a big deal, but we justwant to sort of see what it does
if it, you know, ifwe can get that cyclic break down.

(48:15):
Yeah. Yeah, And to me, the importance of that on a pump
gun is not the speed, butthe margin of error for a short stroke.
Yeah. And and especially the smallerpeople that I that I teach,
the smaller frame shooters generally have asmaller reach and getting out to the pump
and having enough leverage to run itis an issue. So if you can

(48:37):
make them start further back and nothave to go as far, I mean,
that's that could be some major improvementsfor some people. I mean,
that's one of the big reasons wehave smaller frame shooter show up. I
generally recommend to semi auto to thembecause they, you know, instead of

(48:58):
having to hold the gun way outhere, they can hold the gun back
here. They don't have to extendtheir arm as much. And especially with
push pull, the you know,if you have a little bend in your
arm, it gives you the leverageto push, whereas if you're all the
way extended, you really don't havethe ability to get that forward tension out

(49:21):
and so took up the recoil.And that's more important for those smaller people.
You know, I can get awaywith not push pulling once or twice
because I'm a big, hefty guy. You know, you get somebody like
like Melanie laur We had her inclass earlier this year, and I mean
she's just a tiny little thing,but with push pull she can run that
gun. Yeah, that's great.And like I said, being able to

(49:45):
grab it further back if you getif your elbows cocked a little bit you
get better pressure for that tension.I've seen that in your class enough times.
But it's that's that's like one ofthe only arguments for those four ends
that overlap the receiver. It's becauseyou can reach it sooner. Now,
Yeah, you can't have a morethan like a two round side saddle on
the side because it's going to reciprocateall the way back. If you can

(50:07):
get a four round I've got atwenty gauge set up like that with the
old longer overlapping hunting four end.Yeah right, and I've got like a
four round tack star on that gun. Nice. Yeah, I mean that's
just just to your point of that. If they can grab the gun sooner,
they can set up the tension sooner, and yeah, run everything back.
I don't know if you guys haveseen that Instructor zero video of him

(50:29):
running that fab Arms ST twelve.I think that's the model. It's a
fab Arms, it's a it's acrazy it's super expensive, heavy duty,
you know, really durable all metalpump gun. I think it's from Italy,
and he's running that gun. Imean he's getting like twelve splits on
a pump gun and it's it's justa very short reciprocation. He's, you

(50:51):
know, because he's it's got thatoverlapping four end, so his his hands
are almost touching when he runs theaction. So it's pretty it's pretty cool.
It's neat to see, and thedude's justin shells out of there.
I mean, I know, Iknow some of the contents, you know,
take it or leave it, butthe dude's running that done really well.
Well. I've I've got a fiveseventy two I think it's it's basically
an eight seventy shrunk down to twentytwo. Oh cool, Oh, it's

(51:15):
it's fun gun, especially you knowit's threaded and with a can and twenty
five rounds of twenty two short inthe magazine, he says. But yeah,
I mean the throw on it's likeit's a wonderful gun for teaching new
shooters how to operate a pump,especially since the controls on it, other

(51:38):
than loading the magazine, the controlson it are literally eight seventy takes eight
seventy trigger packs. I'm gonna haveto find one of those that takes like
twenty gage eight seventy stocks and thenjust your typical, like I have a
bang safety on mine. That's funny. I got to add that to the
compatibility list. Yeah, I wantto say it's a five seventy two is

(52:01):
a model number, but I couldbe wrong. But it's a great little
little douce doucee good stuff. Anotheroption that a lot of people don't recognize
this clearly the circuit judge four tentechnically a shock no bad bad Matt,

(52:22):
no donut. So to me,this was really interesting just because I said
this in a prior podcast. Idon't have use for a judge, really
circuit judge, though that seems kindof interesting. The only problem is,
as I said in the other episode, Yeah, I can't find four ten
shells anywhere. How's how's the cylindergap on that you get anything on the

(52:47):
forearm when you're running it? No, there's nothing. There's hardly any gap
at all. Good. I'm sayingthat as somewhat as a joke, but
there's a use for it. There'sa use for it. It's not going
to be a use that most peoplelistening to this episode are going to need

(53:08):
because they already have seven different thingsthat do the same job. But I
mean, because I want it isa legitimate reason for having a gun.
Yes, yes, agreed. InAmerica, I was talking to a gunsmith
about that. They were saying,you know, hey, what do I
do to get into a gun Hejust got out of gunsmithing school? What

(53:29):
do I do? How do Ihow do I make my name? You
know, just kind of just askingfor general advice. And I'm like,
well, you know, if youwant to make a comfortable living, you
know, just find a market thatneeds a gunsmith and go do your thing.
You're gonna love what you do andit's gonna be great. If you
want to make a lot of money, I've heard you should invent a widget
and and I'm like, find findhim a niche and find what people need

(53:52):
and make that and do it betterthan everyone else. And we joked about
that. I'm like, how aboutthe revolving carbans? I think I think
that's an un service market. SoI don't know, I don't I don't
think we're gonna see that anytime soon. But yeah, I love those things.
Quick detached cylinders, yes, butpale rider on yeah, yeah,

(54:15):
christ six twelve right, I don'tYeah, it's yeah, it's so close
right there, missed it by thatWhat was that that pancore jackhammer that never
actually got made, like saw usein video games all throughout the odds.
Yeah, but like they never actuallymade. I think they made like one

(54:37):
tool room prototype or something. Ian'sgot a video on it somewhere, of
course he does. Yeah, welove being God bless him. He hasn't
died. If anyone's listening to this, I think what happened. No,
he's fine. No, I wasout. I was out shooting with him
on Sunday. It was awesome.Yeah, what were you out there shooting?

(54:59):
Uh? May have been playing alittle with a war crime stick had
an eighteen ninety seven Winchester out doingsome a little bit of myth busting with
it. Nice What what year manufacturer? It was a World War One era
gun. It was a and heput a video out about it about the

(55:19):
gun itself. I think yesterday andthe next ones are coming out soon,
the shooting videos. It was.It was from the correct serial number block
of World War one Marshall procured shotguns. It had some like replacement parts.
They were correct in that they weretrench gun parts, but like he had

(55:42):
a World War two stock on itthat had the cartouche of the new made
World War two stock and not afact, not an arsenal rebuild of a
World War One gun with a WorldWar two stock. So you know,
it's it's it's it has all theoriginal trench gun parts. It is an
original trench gun, but it's notlike one hundred percent correct, so you
don't have to feel bad about goingout and shooting the thing. Yeah,

(56:06):
I gotta love that. Yeah,and I don't because it hasn't released yet,
I don't want to give too muchaway, but it's a fun video.
We did some some really interesting stuffwith some various ammunition. But even
know what that is. That's somehigh brass. Uh huh, that's a

(56:28):
that's a paper. Yeah, it'sa it's an actual military procured US property
marked commercial Remington DOUBLET buckshot cool fromWorld War Two. That's awesome. So
I'm jealous. It was zeet stuff. So Cody, you brought up something

(56:53):
we talked about a little bit more. But I suspect you have a little
better insight as to this thing wherea NDA is snow lifted. Yeah,
I mean I've I saw the procurementand I know that what the question that
was that gun's an answer too,sure, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

(57:13):
it was a procurement. I meana while back, it's the forced
modernization stuff is happening across all theDefense Logistics Agency stuff, which is like
the mall that all the government agenciesand O gas go to buy their stuff.
Defense Logistics Agency, but FBI putout a requirement for a they want
a solicitation for modernizing a breacher stuffand they wanted to have a breacher gun

(57:37):
that could have long and short barrelsthat had at least a capacity of six
So they wanted at least six roundsbecause that was the idea, was a
three hinged door or two rounds apiece, and you know, we saw that.
And they wanted suppressor capability, whichwas kind of interesting too. And
so yeah, I mean I thoughtthe genesis was kind of the shoeing for

(57:59):
that. When I heard about theMossburg stuff, I was like, how
how are we doing that? Youknow, and Fisher will tell you,
and I mean, there's there's manypeople that actually do preaching for a living,
but the there was a concern onthe safety of the guns. You
know, the people that you knowslung guns behind and maybe you know hits
hit people on accident, and sothe safety switch on that Mossburg, the

(58:24):
idea is that it's pistol grip,and everyone knew, hey, you can't
activate the safety of a Mossburg ifyou have a pistol grip on it.
So Mossburg corrected that by putting aswitch very similar to an air of fifteen
on the side of the receiver.So from a pistol grip orientation, you
can toggle the gun on the safeand that way you can sling it and
go clear the house with whatever yourprimary long gun is. So it was

(58:46):
neat and similar to what I wastalking about where I see the Serbu short.
A short barrel gives you maneuverability,and then the box magazine gives you
capacity, so you don't have toyou know, swap out the to reload
the tube. You know, tostuff the tube takes a lot of dexterity.

(59:07):
Heck, if you've got a tenround box magazine on you and maybe
one spare, then you can getthrough a lot of doors on a structure.
So also got noticed, and wewere talking about it earlier when when
Matt showedis a picture that one particularlynice touch I saw was. It looked
like they had a shroud around thetop of that safety to keep it to

(59:30):
minimize the chance of it getting accidentallydisengaged when you drop it. And and
that seems like a really good idea. I mean, I am not a
breaching guy, caveat, but thatseems like a pretty solid thought out idea
there. Yeah, agreed, it'slike a fence, you know, on
the controls of regular ars, they'vegot a fence or you know, it

(59:52):
brings something above that terrain, youknow, if it's slapping on your gear.
So yeah, they did a I'mI'm really happy with it. And
yeah, there's one more step ofthat procurement that's going to be interesting.
So I'm not, you know,trying to tease people, but I'm really
excited to see that next one.So that's good, that's cool. Yeah,

(01:00:13):
it's really so question that we hadand we couldn't tell just by looking
at it. Can you put abutt stock on that? It looked like
it had like a socket at theback there to put a stock on.
Yeah, the ones that I saw, they were actually the So the five
ninety M that's m like Mike,that's their magazine fed designation. That receiver's

(01:00:34):
uh, it's different, and sosome components on it are a little longer.
It's sort of it's a lot biggerrejection port, you know, and
the controls are moved around like theirsupermags stuff. So they're nine thirty fives
and they're eight thirty fives three pointfive at the end of those models or
the designation for three and a halfinch receivers. So they're made as their
goose guns and everything, and sothose detachable magazine models are on a larger

(01:00:58):
frame. So the one that Isaw was exactly that which takes Mossberg stocks.
So it's got the same you know, horseshoe shape on the back with
the through bolt. So what thatone, the one in the photo?
It looks like the Ergo product,which means that thing's actually made a polymer,
which might not be the best choice. But I don't design shotguns for

(01:01:19):
a living, so I don't know. But yeah, that that might be
a cool upgrade, But yes onecould. If it was the mossprig shape,
you could absolutely slap a little sidefolder on there go have a good
time. Very cool. Any othernew shotguns stuff that you guys can or
the shotguns themselves that you can thinkof new ones. Yeah, oh yeah,

(01:01:46):
we talked about now, we talkedabout the ninety in a couple episodes,
but you weren't part of that discussion. And also the eight three hundred
patrol yep. Now what if theymade one of those in a thirty two

(01:02:07):
a CP though, that would bethey do they do? Every time I
press trigger, I get eight ornine thirty two pellets that goes out to
Ben, who's listening right now,And every time one month later, that's
another month delay on the on theax that's Ben's and chat that's another month.

(01:02:31):
That's funny. You want to gofor two? I could do this
all day three months. Reds arecrap, No buy, They're great.
Actually thought they did a great jobwith this particular gun. Yep, it
was Ben's, the famous guy fromthe TFB video of you guys shooting out
in the desert. Right. Yeah, there's the sexy gentleman in the background.

(01:02:54):
Then if you need to get on, just say something in chat and
I'll add you get in here.It looks like you have something on the
silver and color. It looks familiar. I can't quite place it. Oh
yeah, this is Uh, thisis Adam's new bolt catch, which I
have to admit I was very skepticalof at first. So probably the most

(01:03:17):
common user induced malfunction we see withsemi autos, particularly the Brettus, is
I've already hit that. When guysare doing an emergency reload through the ejection
port, whether it's over the topor under the bottom, they tend to
hit this and it catches the bolthandle, and then they go to shoot

(01:03:38):
and it doesn't work because it's notin battery. So I had been talking
with Ben and a few other peopleabout how what we really what I'd really
like to see is a fence aroundat least the lower part of the bolt

(01:03:58):
catch, so that you don't hitit by accident when you're come up here
to drop a shell in. Forvarious reasons, that didn't seem to be
feasible, and then Adam comes outwith this, and I'm thinking, why
the hell is he making the catchlarger. That's going to make it worse.
But that when he came out toour home range over in eastern Ohio

(01:04:25):
back during the summer, he broughtthese prototypes out and we put several hundred
rounds through him. And what Iand pretty much all one reload one.
We were doing reloads the entire time. We're out there burning through that AMMO.
And what I found was the factorypart has almost like a rounded cross

(01:04:48):
section. It's got a little almostramp, and as you're sliding it over
it has a tendency to kind ofdepress that latch. This flat aratus part
the shell just slides across a flatand doesn't seem to depress it as much.

(01:05:09):
I need more time on it.I need several more shooting sessions with
it. But playing with it,I mean, for for a one day
shooting session that was a fairly extensiveone, but it was still just one
day. It really seemed to reducethat tendency to inadvertently activate on this gun
doing an under the under the gunportload. So it surprised me, but

(01:05:30):
very cool. I ought to knowby now Adam kind of knows what he's
about, kind of, so outof curiosity, then what is the part's
compatibility between the A three patrol andthe thirteen oh one. So Ben,
feel free to correct me, sinceI see you're on here now, but
they do take the same site.Yeah, is that my cue? Yeah?

(01:05:55):
It's your que ben, that's yourcue, So that part specifically is
one hundred percent compatible between the twoguns. The extended bolt release with the
three four the three inch gun isthe same exact part between the thirteen oh
one and the eight three hundred thatthe actual bolt release segment of that is

(01:06:19):
the same between the three and threeand a half inch guns. So Adam's
bolt release will work on the Afour hundred Extreme Plus as well, So
for all the duck hunters, that'sprobably a cool thing. Then specifically between
the thirteen o one and A threehundred patrol, yeah, you've got the
bolt release. The stock profile isthe same so long as you don't need

(01:06:42):
to remove the stock bolt. Sothirteen o one stock the factory the Barretta
OEM stocks will interchange. The sitesare the same drill and tap pattern,
so the CROM will work on bothequally well. The adjustable side from the

(01:07:03):
thirteen oh one will fit on theeight three hundred if you want to upgrade
that, which is what I didwith mine. This is my thirteen oh
one has CRAM on it, andI took the thirteen oh one site off
of that gun out of my partspin and threw it on the say three
hundred when I got it. Yeah, yeah, that works grade the reptili

(01:07:24):
amount interchanges between the two guns theman so the handguards are the same length
and roughly the same spec The realdifference is in the bolt stop or the
piston stop and the receiver made up. So your tube extensions. Nordic is

(01:07:44):
doing a new extended tube covering that'smetal with a barrel clamp, so that'll
work on both thirteen o one andeight three hundred, and there might be
stuff in the future that helps bridgeadditional gaps between those platforms. I took
my barrel clamp off. What Ifound that they it tended to walk under

(01:08:05):
recoil. There's no mechanical retention onit, it's just friction, and under
recoil it was sliding, so youdon't need it. So I just took
it off and put an end locksling swivel right there and solves a problems.

(01:08:26):
Does that one have a screw andchoke? Yeah, this one has
the threaded the threaded chokes, sothe barrel bells out there at the end
right, it's a thicker it's abigger diameter on the outside, so kind
of it bells out. It's acylinder about three inches back and then it
trumpets, bells out to the largerdiameter at the chokes. I'll be damned,

(01:08:48):
it kind of does just a tinybit. I never noticed that it's
a blunderbuss. I think that's that'ssupposed to be that mechanical stop for that
clamp, but I don't know ifthat is what it was designed for.
Ben might have some info on that, but yeah, I'm interested that Nordic's
going to make one of the builtin and that'll likely have a mechanical stop

(01:09:09):
so that thing doesn't walk off theend. Yeah, that's what it needs.
If you're going to have a barrelclamp, I've never been a big
fan of them. It just makesit one more piece to take the thing
apart. But if you're going tohave one, have something that mechanically prevents
it from walking, because friction isnot going to cut it. I've seen
that happen numerous times. Barrel clampsreally really matter when it's an it's a

(01:09:33):
tube extension, because that is underspring pressure and you do need that extra
bit of friction to stop it fromrotating under recoil thence ours is a tube
cover, It's probably not as necessary, and contrary to popular belief, Baretta
does hear the market and occasionally listen. So everything again, we're always working

(01:09:58):
on stuff there. You will seeinline revisions from us on product over the
next few years, now that we'vegot the factory move behind us. There's
there's a lot on there's a lotgoing on in the kitchen cool, and

(01:10:18):
there's gonna we will have a Brettepisode in the in the fairly near future.
So this is a good warm upfor ben Yep. I need to
get him more in the public eye. He's a good dude. Well,
he's on our discord too. Yeah, I'm okay with behind the scenes.

(01:10:40):
That is the new face of Baretta. Is that what? I? Yes?
Exactly, that TFB thing, Iwas like, James, get been
on camera, get him, gethim. That was awesome. It was
like a white buffalo spotting. It'sbeen on camera. A little bit of
behind the scenes. It wasn't goingto happen, but there were some finer

(01:11:01):
technical points in the initial video editthat needed someone on camera to kind of
have different b roll of. Sothere's one thing filmed on one day and
I kind of stepped in the nextday to back clean up. That was
not planning. You did a greatjob you did. Next will be the
swimsuit things. Oh dear, youknow, of all the Italian pieces of

(01:11:28):
clothing that we do, I don'tthink we do that. Okay, that
surprises me. So what other newshotgun shotguns are out there that you guys
have been messing with? Anything elsethat you can think of. I mean
it's not really new, but theRemonton V three, you know, it

(01:11:48):
was the Verse of Max and thenthe V three Attack thirteen. You know,
they launched it as that before FreedomGroup went out, and that's that's
a fun little gun, nice andclean, lightweight. It doesn't have a
receiver extension on it, so youcan the stock options are pretty cool and
that's why it came out as Attackthirteen. It was a pistol grip twelve

(01:12:09):
gauge that that actually ran you know, PGF with a little thirteen inch barrel.
So cool. They got a blendof inertia and gas, a really
lean a variable port system that itlets more guess in the shorter the cartridges
and then the shell and then let'sless gas in the longer it is because
the shells physically block some gas orificesin the chamber, and so those have

(01:12:35):
been great. I like those,they're fun. You know, the Bretta
the three D Ultimate Patrols amazing andthe thirteen to one is also great.
You know, has been for along time, so it definitely they cast
a long shadow, and with Redmontonbeing dormant for three years, that's there's

(01:12:56):
there's no doubt that Brett has definitelytaken advantage of that, and it's great
to see. And I really likethe you know, the Bread of USA
stuff, really pushing it out ofGallatin. So really cool. But yeah,
not a lot of new news.Hey there you go. Yes,
not a lot of new news shotgunsstuff, but e three hundred Ultimate Patrols,

(01:13:16):
you know, the coolest thing sincesliced bread. And it works great,
it's got it really nice. Welike all the controls on it,
and you know, Matt did agreat job helping influence the texture on the
fore end and making sure all thatstuff runs. It's it's amazing. So
we're we're really excited. I gotto give kudos to Ben on that as
well. Oh, I mean hehe took our input and helped, you

(01:13:40):
know, kind of kind of translatethat into uh into final physical form.
So I mean, A, theylistened and B they you know, they
did a very good job understanding aswell. So that was very much a
team effort. It turned out verywell. I like that. I like
that handgard quite a bit. Ilike the gun quite a bit. I

(01:14:02):
think it's going to be a greatoption for people that maybe don't want or
don't need to spend the money ona thirteen oh one, they can get
most of it with the three hundred. So I got a question for you
guys regarding those semi auto Boretta shotguns. One of the topics we've discussed in
the past was taking something like thatand having an equivalent in a fifty state

(01:14:28):
legal configuration. So this is wasa concept Daryl Bulky brought up, basically,
having a hunting shotgun that set upit appears to be a hunting shotgun,
but guess what, it also happensto work great for anti personal purposes.
Between the thirteen oh one and theA three hundred, what is the
hunting variant that also could be Andthis might sound like a simple question,

(01:14:53):
but not everyone's going to be overlyfamiliar with the ins and outs of the
different product lines. If you loveyour thirteen one or your eight three hundred,
what is the equivalent on the huntingside, Well, can you actually
remind me where the stop off pointis to make it fifty state legal?
So part of its appearance as well? Okay, yeah, so it might

(01:15:16):
be magazine capacity, it might bemostly though, it's it's appearance. So
if if if they get pulled overand some flood cop looks at it goes,
oh, you shouldn't have that,versus oh, that's clearly my duck
gun. Nothing. You don't needto be wincern Within our lineup, that
would likely be the Turkey guns.So we have an a three hundred Ultimate

(01:15:39):
Turkey with a twenty four inch barrel. It comes in the latest and greatest
both real tree and mossy oak patterns, specifically for Turkey. It's got the
restrict it's got the tube restriction inthere like any other hunting shotgun. But
like all of our hunting shotguns,there's an instruction, there's a tutorial online

(01:16:02):
to bring that up to five rounds. Now, we are actually coming out
with a five shots you patrol forthose in the lesser fortunate states, So
that's also an easy answer, butit's gonna be black and tactical. So
if you want something really stealth,yeah, it's going to be the Turkey

(01:16:24):
Gun with the restrictor removed. Ormy personal one is just my Vancom eight
seventy simtach that I put some woodfurniture on exactly very stealth, and boy
does it work. Yeah, howdo we put wood on the eight three
hundred the Turkey Gun? Actually there'salready wood for it for the patrol I'm

(01:16:45):
working on the four end is trickyclearing that annular gas system. Yeah,
I'm comfortable saying that's That's something that'son my side project list and has been
for a minute because I want it. But as I said, we've got
a very busy kitchen right now,so side projects are kind of very much
on the side. So the Afour hundred, you've got a wood model

(01:17:08):
on that, But the like wetalked about before, that does not translate
to the A three hundred. Thereis a single and Eric Stern knows the
exact skew off the top of hishead. I do not. There was
some Eastern European hundred wood variant thatdid actually use an annular gas system of
them. So there is a veryesoteric wood a four hundred four end that

(01:17:33):
you might be able to find onlike Serbian gunbroker. Hell, yeah,
on your thirteen O one, Imust find, I must find. Yeah,
I mean, there's a very realthing about appearances. You know.

(01:17:53):
I had a one of my favoritecollege professors was an old retired Army SF
guy, started teaching sociology in college. He told me, realities one thing,
perception is everything, And I thinkthere's a lot of truth to that
in a lot of realms. Andyou know, being able to to point.

(01:18:15):
You know, hey, you onlyso you had to shoot a guy,
God forbid, you got to shoota guy. Do you want it
to be with the big, scarytacticoled out gun or do you want it
to be with Grandpa's duck gun.You know, one of those looks better
to a jury. And if youcan get both, if you can get

(01:18:40):
the performance of the tacticoled out gunwith the appearance of the traditional safe everybody
knows about it hunting gun, there'ssome benefit to that. Absolutely ultimate patrol
tigers, right, there's that.Hey, it looks really cool. You

(01:19:03):
got is there one in stock somewhere? Where'd you find that? I'm just
looking at the website. Just okay, they're unobtainium. Dad wanted one so
bad. Yeah, I think,would you know, put wood on it,
put a vent rib on it ifyou can make it a glossy finish,

(01:19:24):
and that's your urban camouflage. Imean most most folks won't know.
You know what it is. Hey, it's been vent rib all the things
sting there you go, Yeah,vent Rib all the things. I love
vent We're playing with the idea rightnow. I've got I'm talking a guy

(01:19:46):
over at Wilson Combat to get getour next site allocation. Maybe doing a
matt Hot model of the SIMTAC modto a fourteen inch event rib. It's
gonna be cool, hmm, speakingof got my semtech model here with your
hoge forend. I see, Yeah, I like the hopes. I'm weird

(01:20:10):
like that. It does mean thatit makes it more difficult to mount to
light on it on the gun formy purposes as a home defense weapon.
You know, I have a lightswitch and easy reach that will illuminate anything
I need to shoot from the bedroom. So that's that's a a good situation
that reduces my need for that,but just a nice fore end for shooting.

(01:20:35):
It feels good in the hand.Yeah, you get this thing vent
ribbed up, yes, sir fourteeninch. Yeah, that's our new guy.
Rich. Actually, Matt Rich askedme to tell you Rich Roope says,
hih so, so, yeah,Rich is he's getting really good.

(01:20:56):
I'm doing some really nice you know, just manual machines stuff to blend our
sites into event ribs and so's he'sspun up on that. He really excels
at that really nice seamless silver shaugherjob, joining you know, two similar
medals together. He's he's like anartist. So that now we can do
the scattergun front site blended into theevent rib. So it's gonna be neat.

(01:21:20):
So yeah, well I'll send yousome pictures on that later. Yeah,
yeah, definitely. Yeah, aMatt version of the Semtac gun would
be kind of cool. Yes,there, I'm just looking at the Baretta
site, looking at all the shotguns, going I want one of those,
and one of those those I willtell you speaking of something new and interesting,

(01:21:43):
this is one of those things whereI always knew something and maybe I
was wrong. I'm not sure itbears further testing. But when I was
out shooting that trench gun this pastweekend. I mean, it's Arizona,
it's one hundred and ten degrees,we're in direct sunlight out in the desert,
and we were putting a decent numberrounds through it in rapid succession,
and I was amazed at how muchthat heat shield actually did the job.

(01:22:11):
Like even without gloves, you know, I could hold onto the gun and
my thumb wrapped around and hit thatheat shield. It no big deal.
That surprised me. I didn't expectit to be as effective as it was.
Did you have a shoulder thing thatwent up? Obviously obviously that's what
that is. That is the shoulderthing that goes up that barrel shroud.

(01:22:35):
You know, it's so funny,you know, for the longest time you'd
see, especially in a decade agoor so. Anyways on forums look at
tactical shotguns and everybody would you know, poo poo any kind of you know,
barrel shroud or anything. And thenyou know, and I mean a
class and we're doing who we're doingthis, and we're doing over the shoulder

(01:22:58):
loading, and we're like Hey,wait a second, getting here, that
would actually be really really handy.I mean, that's one of the things.
That's one of the things I likeabout vet ribs is it kind of
gives you a little standoff and it'snot quite as hot. It gives you
a little bit of leeway. They'renot perfect, but a little bit.
Yeah, but that that heat shieldon that ninety seven was surprisingly effective at

(01:23:20):
its intended purpose. Now that said, I may have casually looked around to
see what was available on the commercialaftermarket heat shield market for eight seventies and
don't do it. No, no, they all look like just poorly thought
out attachment methods. They didn't seeyou saw the plastic one with the I

(01:23:45):
was tempted to get one just tosee how quick I could melt it.
Yeah, but then I'd have toscrape all it melted plastic off my barrel.
Now I'm looking at heat shields forthirteen ones, so I get a
lot of requests. Word, I'lltell you that. So, I mean,
it's uh, it's it's something thatit seems a lot of people,

(01:24:06):
uh have a have a desire for. And I think probably a lot of
that is, you know, peopleunderstanding the different methods that they might actually
use this thing. It's not youknow, it's using it in a defensive
scenario is a whole lot different thanthere's there's a bird, you know,

(01:24:29):
there there's a there's a there's aclay target or whatever, you know,
where you're actually I mean, heck, so much of the movement that we
did at you know, thundersticks onit, you're going in and out.
You know. Me personally, Ilike kind of having the gun in this
orientation with muzzle at the ground,for being able to navigate other people and

(01:24:50):
keep the muzzle in a safe direction, and just being able to have a
lot of different options for where myhand gets placed is really nice, you
know what, whether it's holding itin that position, or whether it's you
know, over the shoulder loading,or whether it's just your CQB short stalking,
having your hand in different positions andhaving options of not getting burned.

(01:25:15):
It seems a lot of people arekind of getting cued into that. Yeah,
you know, in our classes wedo short stalking where your thumb's going
to be on the barrel, andbecause of the volume that we do,
we tell every student bring gloves,bring shooting gloves. You're gonna need them.
I think in civilian home defense ContinentalUS situations. The odds of you

(01:25:43):
running enough AMMO through a shotgun toget it too hot to put your thumb
on the barrel is like Tam says, you're going to have your own Wikipedia
page at that point. But fortraining, for training, you're gonna get
the gun hot, and so untilnow, the only real way to do
it is I just wear gloves.I got some the Magpole flight gloves.

(01:26:05):
I love those things, but chancesare bumping the night, I'm not going
to have my gloves on, andthey do give you an issue with They
do reduce your your manual dexterity forthose fine skills like loading. Yeah,
for sure. So having a wayto protect yourself from the heat of the

(01:26:26):
barrel seems like a decent at leasta decent goal. If we don't have
a good way of doing it inthe current market, that's different than the
goal being incorrect, if that makessense. Yeah, if the goal is
to survive a shotgun class that works, it's good to go. Keep the
screws tight, don't cut your handon it, like the retrograde stuff from

(01:26:48):
Musburg. So I have seen.I will send Cody you saw it too.
One good example of this on anage seventy, and that was Chuck.
Chuck Mderski actually managed to machine ormill or modify like an Ithaca thirty
seven trench gun, bayonet lug andheat shield onto an eight seventy. He

(01:27:12):
had done some research that said thatit might have been done in an individual
unit level in the Vietnam War,and he wanted to try it, and
he brought that out to our classactually twice. Yeah, and that was
a neat thing. And I thinkthat attachment method that they used on those
old trench guns where they actually hadlongitudinal grooves through the barrel and they had

(01:27:35):
screws through that that locked it inplace, and then the heat shield is
actually welded to the bannett lug.It's a very rigid attachment methodology works a
lot better than the commercial stuff yousee. But yeah, maybe I'm just
crazy. But see Ben's typing awayas fast as he can. I've got

(01:27:57):
to put this down. We're gonnahave this on the next release. Oh
dude. The only thing that thatcomes close to his irritation at my asking
him for a thirty two cheetah.What is yeah, exactly, Oh crap,
there's another one. They make acheetah and thirty two actually have one.
It's right there. I've got likethe four of them. They're awesome.

(01:28:17):
But the only other thing is Ibug him for vent rib barrels on
thirteen oh one tacticals and that yousuper glue. Just take it off any
other shotgun, super glue it.They'll be fine. I just like vent
ribs. I like them aesthetically.I like them practically. Everybody's physiologies and

(01:28:41):
what's up each each wits put onmy hand. So every time we ask
that's the Italians, they just aboutkick us out of the country. We'll
say that everybody's everybody's physiology, everybody'svision can be a little different. But
for me personally, the vent ribreally helps. It helps me when I'm

(01:29:05):
mounting the gun. It like confirmsalignment as it's coming up. I find
it to be very useful to me. Not everybody feels the same way,
and you know, if it doesn't, they make them without vent ribs to
get what works for you. Mattlikes him so much. He has it
at twelve, at three and nine. It'd be cool have it at nine

(01:29:29):
o'clock for do some short stocking?Was yeah, exactly, you don't actually
get down on the sites for shortstocking. Don't hair lip yourselves people,
that's funny shell selections. What doyou guys? Okay, So, for
the longest time and even still FederalFlight Control, what is has been it,

(01:29:51):
but unfortunately hasn't been something that peoplehave been able to find. Unless
you're lucky, or you know people, or you have a stash and you're
abusing it very sparingly. What areyour replacement options for people socially use That's
what I'm trying to say. Ihave this discussion all day with people.

(01:30:14):
They you know, people asking sinceyou know what we do Titans shot patterns,
they're asking what Ammo does the vancomsystem work the best with? And
unfortunately the answer is it depends.The answer is yes, yeah. I
mean, it's everything that goes throughit is going to travel through it like
a perfectly machined concentric bore. Notperfect, but you know, much better

(01:30:36):
than a lot of the factory stufffrom Remenson in Mossburg. And it's it's
concentric, you know, it's it'ssquare to the breach bolt, square to
the muzzle, so everything it's nice. It's been sort of blueprinted. But
so yeah, I say that.Take that. Everyone who's listening. Put
that in your brain. It depends. But what we tend to see ammunition

(01:31:00):
that's less than fourteen hundred feet persecond, ammunition that's plated, and if
you can get eight pellets instead ofnine, you're going to have a good
time. This tends to be therecipe. One of the reasons flight control
works so well as you have almostno pellet deformation because all those pellets traveled

(01:31:21):
down the barrel in the SABO.That's preventing those from touching the sides of
the barrel. And lead, alow antimony lead is going to melt at
about a thousand feet per second.If you look at pellet guns, they
start to turn alloy projectiles when youget over a thousand feet per second.
That's because the lead from friction startsto melt, and then your projectile is

(01:31:45):
not a circle anymore. So herewe are pushing unplated buckshot into fourteen hundred
feet per second on a shotgun bore, and then you got three of them
stacked in there, three by threeby three, So you've got three in
this shot pellet. The shot callhim a three trying to leave this barrel.
Now that's that's the other thing.I mean, when three go through
a little you've got three thirty threecaliber pellets in a circle. They three

(01:32:11):
stooges at the end of a barrel. You've got your little seven hundred and
twenty nine thousand and seven inch exitdiameter, and you got three pellets trying
to squeeze out of there at thesame time. Something's got to give.
There was a really neat video Isaw. I think it's high speed or
ballistic high speed or high speed ballistics. I posted about it on our Instagram.

(01:32:36):
I think yesterday they did a reallyneat video with high speed like two
hundred and fifty thousand frames a secondphotography of various bullets hitting glass. Now
the glass is cool, you canwatch how quickly the cracks propagate. But
the big thing was they shot somebuckshot at some just sheets of glass,

(01:32:59):
and you could see how deformed thepellets were. It was. It looked
like typical Winchester super X buckshot highvelocity plane lead, no special watting,
no buffering, and I mean theyalmost look like cubes with round clausey,
rounded corners line at this thing,and that's what makes pellets go vvvvvvw all

(01:33:21):
over the place and opens your patternsup. Absolutely. Yeah, perfectly round
object will fly perfectly straight. Imean, all the other laws of physics
apply. But the more round youcan make that thing, the better chance
it is of going where you're pointing. Yeah, that sounds good info,
because well, it's just like alot of the things that I like to

(01:33:45):
I like to bring up, it'sdifficult to provide a definitive this is the
answer. It's easier to say theseare parameters of things that work, and
so as opposed to just saying up. If you don't get this, you
are screwed. So I think Ido think there's a couple things with this.
One is that absent flight control.Sometimes even with flight control, you

(01:34:05):
know, all chock gun barrels arespecial snowflakes, but absent flight control,
you've got to do what we hadto do for time immemorial prior to flight
control, which is, buy acouple of boxes of everything you can find,
shoot it through your gun, eachindividual barrel, see what patterns the

(01:34:27):
best, and then lay in astockpile of that for that gun. That's
unfortunately, simply how it is.Even today, it's rare, but I
have had a couple of students cometo class with guns that vastly preferred nine
pellet flight control over eight by like, I mean half the pattern size.

(01:34:54):
Why hell, I don't know.It's weird, but you can see the
result and plan according well, andthat's that's a That's a good point with
pretty much everything, if you're smartabout your purchases. There's a thread talking
about in a revolver group talking aboutthe validity of three twenty seven federal Magnum.

(01:35:15):
People are saying, oh, Ican't find I can't know. That's
dumb. Well, if you actuallyhave them, if you stockpilot, it's
a non issue. Same with shotgunstuff. Okay, don't be living box
to box. Yep, we needto be living case to case, multiple
cases at a time. And it'snot a bad idea though. When you're
going from case to case, yea, do some of it because a lot

(01:35:39):
to lot varies. Yeah. Yeah, So another thing you also have to
look at the context of what you'redoing. If the longest shot in your
house is seven yards, your buckshotselection in terms of pattern size probably doesn't
make a whole lot of difference absencesome real weird outliers. Yea. You
know, if I'm putting in thewad from flight control versus a three inch

(01:36:03):
pattern versus like maybe a five inchpattern from the worst crappy garbage tier buckshot
five still do it matter? Probablynot at that distance. You know,
if you're if your use case involvesbeing outside and you may have neighbors down
range, or you know, you'vegot a big house, wide open house

(01:36:25):
and you've got like maybe a twentyyard shot across your hallway, then yeah,
it makes a difference. So youhave to understand what your own context
is and plan accordingly. Yeah.And then also to add on to that
with considering your use with all ofyour training, all your practice, the
classes that you take, are yougoing to be always shooting that good stuff

(01:36:46):
or are you going to be shootingpotentially spurred? And with that consideration,
with that consideration, does that makethis a little bit more viable? You
don't need to be spending thousands ofdollars on a pat of the best shotgun
ammo ever, because you're probably notgoing to shoot all that you might and
or you can turn around and sellit in a couple of years when no

(01:37:09):
one can find it anywhere. Yeah, I mean it's like, do you
do you go take thousand round classeswith one seven HST some agencies do somebody
else? Individual? But like,does your individual guy, you know,
training junkie go out and do athousand round class with with hsts or does

(01:37:30):
he buy some you know, someball ammo that's a little cheaper and go
that and hopefully shoots to the similarpoint a point impact uh, and then
goes and does that mean the samething? Like, the vast majority of
our class is shot with bird shotbecause we're not trying to disable an opponent.
We're trying to teach you the weaponmanipulation skills and recall mitigation skills reps,

(01:37:55):
and you can do that with birdshot much this it's exact actually the
same in terms of efficacy, probablyeasier because there's less recoil most of the
time. And then at the endwe do have you do drills specifically with
buckshot to say hey, this isthe more powerful stuff. Now you can
prove to yourself and experience for yourselfwhat this feels like with serious ammo.

(01:38:21):
But you don't need that for Hey, this is your intro to push pull,
this is your intro to reloading,this is your intro to short stocking.
Bird SHOT's fine for that for thatpurpose. Absolutely absolutely. I think
that covered that topic very nicely,especially with Cody's parameters. I really like

(01:38:45):
that new parts. So clearly everyoneneeds to get a heat guard. Yeah,
I'm waiting for that. Am Igoing to spark a revolution? Everybody's
gonna get heat shields. We're gonnasee like like spoke heat shield. It's
happened. It's happened, definitely.I definitely haven't been putting research into such

(01:39:09):
a thing. Definitely not shield Comeyou know where you go putting my old
designer hat on. I gotta sayI did some renderings at one point in
time. Eat shield. Yeah,heat shields in another color, like a

(01:39:29):
titanium nitride underneath a mlock handguard.You start getting some color breaks in there
that starts looking really cool. Andthat's the most important aspect of anything.
Firearms has to look good. Dackathornetold me years ago when I was just
a little kid. He said,he said, Matt, he said,
in order to shoot good, youmust look good. But as we already

(01:39:58):
discussed. There's some viability here,especially Okay, if you're if you're if
you're living behind a keyboard and you'renot using your stuff, and you're not
experimenting with different methods of freeloading,you're not going to know. And you're
not shooting your guns, you're notgoing to know. Oh shit, I'm
going to burn myself barrels toasty.Yeah, well, hell shooting my my
og. If I let my handgo any higher than that that forward,

(01:40:21):
that vertical grip, guess what happensto my hand? It burns? Yeah,
one of those two? Yeah,that too. I don't have that
with my Tivar. I don't knowwhy. But what other any any other
new parts Adam I know has atleast one week we touched upon it,
and how how viable it is fortwo different bread of shotguns. You you

(01:40:45):
touched on my parts? Yes,just trying to just trying to make sure
we're clear here. Yes, arewe still in phrasing? I don't even
know if we are? We shouldbe? Yeah, I mean the bolt
release has been pretty good. I'vebeen super happy with that, is thinking
thirteen oh one charging handle has justbeen getting you know, cases and cases

(01:41:08):
and cases and more cases of AMMOthrown through it. So I mean that's
you know, still a still intesting, you know, is what I
like to say. Well, youknow, if you don't mind, let's
talk about that. Let's talk aboutwhat you went through with the first one
and the failure and how you completelysaid, hey, this didn't work,
and how many companies are doing that. Yeah, I mean I make myself

(01:41:30):
feel a little better by going andlooking at how some other companies handle some
of their failures, and seems likeignoring it is what you know, a
lot of people do, which iskind of mind blowing to me. You
know. It's yeah, not notexactly like my favorite topic of discussion,
for pretty obvious reasons. Yes,I mean, you know, the I

(01:41:58):
guess a little bit of background onit is. Yeah. I mean,
for several years, I had apretty good at least I thought a pretty
good design and some ideas revolving arounda charging handle, an all metal charging
handle, presumably one piece, wouldbe a great way to go about it,

(01:42:19):
you know, put it put quitea number of rounds through prototypes last
year, and I mean, youknow, I guess it's easy to say
in hindsight now you know, notenough rounds or not not enough of the
right types of rounds or whatever.But either way, you didn't see any

(01:42:44):
problems in any testing. And then, you know, probably so we released
it last August, and then aroundOctober I had heard of like I think
it was two people who had their'sbreak and the you know, the first
one was alarming for sure, andthen you know I heard of another one
and it's like, well, that'sthat. That is pretty much setting it

(01:43:10):
in stone of what we're going togo about right there, and you know,
not knowing the exact cause of it, you know, talking to a
number of people including Ben, youknow, Eric, guys that would would
kind of know you're picking their brains, it could very well have been,
uh, multiple factors contributing to it. You know, material selection is just

(01:43:34):
kind of part of it. Theoverall mass of it was probably part of
it, and you know, theend of it just basically came down to,
you know, we've got hundreds ofthese things out there. I've heard
of two breaking, and uh,you know, since then, you know,

(01:43:54):
probably probably more have, but Idon't really I don't really know,
because basically as soon as we heardabout it, we issued a complete recall
email at every single purchase or youknow, everyone we're able to get in
touch with, just refund them immediatelyand you know, go about it.
It's it's one of those things wherethis is a pretty vital component to the

(01:44:17):
operation of this firearm. There's plentyof people putting their lives on the line,
you know, trusting these parts andcomponents, and you know, if
it's not one hundred percent, thenyou know, it's it's it's an easy
it's a hard it was. Itwas a hard decision, but it was
an easy decision to do, youknow, is it for I'm not a

(01:44:39):
massive company, and so there wasa little bit of loss taken on that
one, to say the least.But uh, you know, you gotta
do what you gotta do. Youknow, I gotta I gotta be able
to sleep at night knowing that Ithink that I think that lost. They'll
also turn into a positive thing,at least for reputation that people saw that

(01:45:02):
and went, holy crap, thisis amazing and stands by his work.
That's the right thing. Yeah,yeah, you know, integrity isn't isn't
always a thing that's prevalent. ButI do my best with it, and
that was a big factor. Youknow, I've I've always said my stuff

(01:45:23):
to be bomb proof, and youknow, if it's not, I'm going
to do my best to make itright. So, uh, you know
that being said, there was amaterial change on the on the charging handles,
complete redesign putting, putting pressure andstresses on different parts of the of

(01:45:45):
the charging handle itself where there's thosestresses are going into more mass and and
you know, changing a lot ofgeometry and stuff. All that being said,
like the testing for this one andit's it's going very well. I'm
pretty happy with how it's going.So you know, it's never gonna be
good enough, but I'm I'm alsogoing to be taking my time with it.

(01:46:08):
You know, I could pick itliterally, post pictures of newborn twins
and I'll get, hey, when'sthe new charging handle comment? So you
know it's my answer is always thesame. It's like still testing and you
know, after what happened with thatprevious one, I mean, it's it
takes how long it's going to take. Well, clearly though you have twins,

(01:46:29):
that's more labor. You have alarger labor force now because you have
them. I was gonna say itwas a lot more labor. You tell
my wife that what's over the podcastnext time? But yeah, yeah,
I mean it's you know, andand there's uh, there's in terms of
new things, there's something you know, keep keep you That's that's the answer

(01:46:51):
to everything. Uh. And Imean there's a there's been another product that
I've had designed and on my mindfor quite some time, got pretty deep,
you know, almost accidentally teased aboutit last podcast we did. But
yeah, summer, all of youguys have probably seen some picture of it

(01:47:12):
at various stages, and I hadsome challenges with trying to figure out how
to hold these parts and machine theseparts. It's very outside the realm of
what I've done previously. So youknow, I had some help come in
a couple of weeks ago to youknow, sit down and figure it out.

(01:47:34):
And so I mean, I thinkI'm on the right track with that.
So you know, this fall sometime, right, you know, the
goal is to have one of thoseprototypes done and functional, you know,
for thundersticks on it. That's that'skind of the goal that I've got.
So maybe we'll get to maybe we'llget to unveil some pretty cool stuff sooner

(01:47:55):
than later, but who knows ithappens when it happens, Yeah, yea,
and falls perfectly in line with whatthis topic currently is, and it's
yeah, what new parts are outthere? Yeah? Anyone who have any
other parts that they can think ofthat are making their lives better? Cody,

(01:48:15):
Yeah, I mean I'm you know, first of all, Adam,
Yeah, good on you for doingthe recall. It's a tough decision,
but it's the right decision for sure, from you know, speaking from a
company who's we've lived on our reputationfor thirty three years. We have to
do that and you're doing the rightthing. It's not easy, but it's
the right thing. So good foryou, and hopefully it's not necessary again.

(01:48:39):
You know, we're all rooting foryou, man, So I appreciate
it. Man, Yeah, noworries, but yeah, I mean as
far as stuff that's going I mean, yeah, our new stuff out,
you know, the rear sight withthe internal optic mounts, we're going to
go with different. You know,if the industry would decide between five and
ninety and acro already we'd have oneof those two. But looks like the

(01:49:00):
Holosun EPs. Stuff is going tobe cool. A good answer for enclosed
emitters on shotguns as far as it'sactually out. I mean, the wooks
stuff is kind of interesting to usseeing the wood with mlock. Some questionable
things on there. Is it goodfor fighting shotguns? If your length to

(01:49:24):
pull is fourteen inches, that buttstock is probably really good for you.
That's as short as it goes.Oh you're breaking my heart. That's what
it is. It's a fourteen.That's a short it is for now.
There might be a Gen two onthe horizon. So the four ends cool.
It looks great, the shape works, the mlock slots work, so

(01:49:45):
I think it's a it's good.It wasn't designed for us, you know,
it wasn't. It wasn't a Itwas designed by Italians who don't shoot
guns. You know past the horizon. That everything's up above the horizon.
So when we point the guns down, the need to get shorter, and
that's that's what we do in America. We point them out lots of things.
So they're good. We like theergos on it, we like the

(01:50:09):
traction in some of the spots,but to make it like a fighting shotgun
stock, we need some changes.So we'll see that's on the horizon.
Kickies is doing some cool stuff.The replacement recoil pads for the Magpool SGA
stock it's really cool, really nice. If if if you're very recoil sensitive
and I've been taking some phone callsfrom people, they'll call us and you

(01:50:30):
know, hey, I'm you know, I'm seventy years old, and my
wife, she's not too far behindme. Don't let her hear me tell
you that. But there's they'll say, hey, we're just recoil sensitive.
What do we do. Like,well, it's the gun's got to fit
you, and then I'd take fourinches off that barrel if I was you.
But then that recoil pad, it'sreally easy to say that. That
Kickies Sorbi thing. The material that'smade out of the derrometer, it's it's

(01:50:55):
soft enough to handle recoil well,but not tacky enough to grab your clothes
all the time. And then theyjust made a replacement. So we worked
with Magpool a bit. The MagpoleSGA stocks on the Remonton and the Mossbergs.
They use the same back plate asthe Hunter ten twenty two stocks and

(01:51:15):
the seven hundred, So the tentwenty two comes with the really hard rubber
butt plate, and that plate addsalmost no length to pole to that stock.
So for folks using adapters like Adam'sawesome stock adapter on the thirteen oh
one, you're adding a little bitof length because the adapter is just it's
in there, so you can't quiteget as short of length the poll as

(01:51:38):
maybe some people want to. Sothe solution for that was, let's get
Magpole to come out with that Hunterbutt plate. So that's out. Now,
it's cool. It's they made aretail packaging for it, so now
you don't have to cannibalize the buttplate from your ten twenty two stock.
If you want to make your SGAstock a little bit shorter, you can
just built that right on. Andat the same time, Kickies came out

(01:52:00):
with their zorbethane version of that too, with a round it off heel.
So yeah, so it's uh,I know, Adam, you've been shooting
that, well, how are youliking that on the thirteen oh one.
I've been shooting on the pump gunsand I love it. Cool. Yeah,
I mean this is my third rangetrip with it today. You know,
me and the guys took it outlast week. Uh, it's it's

(01:52:24):
been pretty cool. It's Initially Iwas kind of concerned that it might grab
my shirt, you know, itfelt like it could be almost tacky.
Hasn't been any problem whatsoever. Imean, there is certainly less material there,
so it's not gonna you know,you know, it's not gonna be

(01:52:46):
as for as forgiving you know,for recoil if your push poll isn't spot
on. That was that was somefeedback that was given from my from my
guys that were shooting was but Imean they still made it through without much
problem. Yes, I mean it'sgood. Definitely shortens it up. You

(01:53:08):
know, a couple of days agoand today played around a bit with my
plate carrier just to see how itwould feel, you know, trying to
get that shorter length of poll andreally utilizing that just because it really sucks
with you even just the regular regularthickness of butt pads. I mean,

(01:53:29):
it does shorten it up. Itmakes it a bit more usable. It's
not ideal again again for like theadditional thickness of a plate carrier. But
you know, aside from that,it's been good. It's been really good.
Uh. They know, no issueswhatsoever. You know. They commented
on one of my posts that Imade about it, basically asking how it's

(01:53:51):
holding up. It's holding up justfine. I haven't had any problems with
with that recoil pad. So yeah, I'm curious to keep putting more rounds
through it, for sure. Howdo you like the shorter length? That's
that would be my I mean therec I mean for Matt. You know,
Matt teaches it. Matt Hot,you know, teaches it. I'm
Matt. I don't know if ifMatt Landfair teaches a shotgun class, but

(01:54:13):
I know Matt Hot does one ortwo. But you know, the length
is a big thing. The gun'sgot a fit. Like I tell people
that. They call me and say, hey, I want a Vancomp shotgun,
And I'm like, I appreciate that. What do you shoot? You
know? How what's your length ofpoll? Have you ever shot, you
know, like a gun in afighting stance? Because the first thing is
it's got a fit, and sohaving that adapter played in there takes up

(01:54:34):
some of that length the poll.So I would say it necessitates a shorter
stock. The SGA can only goso short. Having this kickies replacement recoil
pad on there gives you a littlebit of recoil absorption but allows a shorter
stock shorter length the poll. Soit's like just over half an inch,
right, is it five eights shorter? I think that's what it is,

(01:54:58):
from the reach from the trigger tothe center of the recoil. So I
just wanted to Adam, do younotice the difference in the length of poll?
Yeah, I mean it's it's definitelybeen a noticeable one. So with
uh, with our stock adapter usingthe the mossberg SGA in the way that
that ends up interfacing with the thirteenoh ones receiver, even with the adapter

(01:55:25):
on there, that length of pollends up being about twelve and three eighths,
which is pretty darn short. Ithink that the I think on a
you know, five hundred or fiveninety, it comes to twelve and a
half. So even with the adapterattack, the length of poll is actually
a little bit shorter. I thinkit's I think it's twelve and a half.
I'd better double check that it's liketwelve and a half on the on
the most five ninety. Yeah,the shortest configuration correct, correct, Yeah,

(01:55:47):
So the shortest configuration on the thirteenO one actually ends up even a
little bit shorter than the shortest configurationon a five hundred or five ninety.
And so having run that, youknow, just the factory magpole recoil pad
for years, you know, that'spretty well what I was used to.

(01:56:09):
So it actually, you know,it took a little bit of uh,
my first number of repetitions, it'slike, oh this is this is noticeably
shorter. So it felt a littlebit bizarre initially, just kind of getting
into the right place. But youknow, some of the major advantages for
sure is you know, especially ifyou're if I'm uh, you know,

(01:56:32):
at a high ready and I'm comingup, you know, there's a lot
of area for that to potentially drag. But it's just that much shorter altogether
now, so it's you know,it's avoiding you know, shot in a
T shirt today the other day,shot in rain jacket, uh, and
it didn't have any problems with itcatching, and you know that was I'm

(01:56:54):
sure part of that is due toit being a little bit shorter as well,
which is is good. So youknow, for me, it's not
necessarily groundbreaking, but yeah, anybodythat's has slightly shorter arms than me.
It could be a game changer forthem. So, I mean it's it's
a cool option. I've been enjoyingit a bit. Yeah, so far,

(01:57:16):
so good. Well, that interfaceis a huge aspect that I don't
know a lot of people necessarily payattention to or consider how important it is
with it with a length of lengthof poll and yeah, that that interface
between person and gun. That quitefrankly, that is the most important modification

(01:57:40):
you can make to a defensive shotgun. Just getting a short enough stock,
getting agreeable down. I mean,if you handed me year old box stock
wally World eight seventy and said youcan do one thing on it, before
I'd do any before I put siteson it, before I'd put a side
saddle on it, I would lampabout two inches off the butt stock.

(01:58:02):
So out of curiosity, how areyou what's the methodology or the algorithm to
figure out optimal size of person andoptimal length of stock or length of pull.
So traditionally what people will tell youis hold the gun, put it

(01:58:26):
in a crook your elbow and ifit if it, you know, the
butt stock hits your bicep while you'vegot reached to the trigger. You're good.
I do that minus a couple ofinches. So I look at mine,
you know, that's that that's touchingmy bicep. My finger is well
passed the trigger. Car I wouldcome back a decent amount. So if

(01:58:55):
I grab him, bogo, it'sa same thing there. I'm cupping the
front of the trigger guard. Canyou get away with a little longer?
Yeah? Probably, but sucks.Why do it if you don't have to?
Most importantly, what I want,I want the student to be able

(01:59:16):
to stand in a normal square,you know, mostly squared off fighting stance,
the same as they would with apistol or carbine. And I want
them to be able to easily reachthe operating parts of the weapon the forehat.
Sometimes you can't get them any shorter. They've they've just got to blade

(01:59:36):
off to be able to reach thepump. That's suboptimal, but you got
to run with what you got.But I would like to have that stock
short enough that you could get upthere and have have good have good easy
reach to the to the pump.I've got enough bend in my forearm that

(01:59:57):
I can apply forward tension. Yeah, they are right, and the less
bladed you are, like Matt's talkingabout you square off there. The more
square you are, the more weight, the more mass you have behind the
recoil pad of that gun to helpabsorb recoil before you start getting pushed off
balance or before the gun starts deflectingand going up into your cheek, and

(02:00:23):
so uh yeah, the shorter youcan get, the more you can turn
into it, the better. Andwhen in doubt, goes shorter because you
can always just turn your body inmore, move the butt stock a little
more centerline, you know, awayfrom the bicep into the pocket, in
from the pocket onto the breast bone, your pack. Yep, exactly.
So we can always, you know, a gun that that is quote unquote

(02:00:45):
too short for us, we canalways accommodate that. Not so much the
other direction. Yeah, it isso much easier to shoot a stock that
is marginally too short versus one that'smarginally too long. Now, what if
it's like like this and it's theYeah, it's perfect, Matt, it's
perfect. I like it. It'sa handgun. Yeah. On on that

(02:01:10):
vein, there's the chisel stock.Have you guys talked about the chisel at
all? I don't think so.Nah, I've been I've been playing with
one and working on some some interestingstuff with it, and it's it's pretty
cool. It's pretty cool. Yeah, it's neat. It's I need to
get my hands on one. I'veseen photos of them. It looks interesting.
I'll bring it in a couple ofweeks. Yeah, I want to

(02:01:31):
see it. Yeah. They they'remaking them for the Remington first, and
it's a it's an aluminum pistol gripstock that's got their chisel, all their
their normal ergos with their nice paddedcheek adjustable cheek riiser, and it's an
adjustable length to pull with the bigfat kickies recoil pad on the back.

(02:01:51):
So in the shortest configuration, Ithink it's like eleven and five eighths length
of poll. And they've their futureproof in so they've got awesome sling mounts.
It's good argos and it comes withthe It ships with an optic plate
for a trigicon RMR. Yeah,so that's back on the adapter. So
it's right there right on your eyeball, right above your pistol grip, your

(02:02:13):
firing hand. So yeah, ofcourse it takes a R fifteen grips.
So whatever, whatever grip you want, I think, mind shipped with a
K grip like a the m OeK I think. And yeah, it's
it's neat, it's cool. Imean for folks who don't want to drill
there change their gun too much.Uh, to put an optic on it,
that's a pretty nice expedient way justto bolt something on. And it's

(02:02:36):
you know, built into the price. You know, it's chisel, so
it's made well, but it's chisel, so it's also expensive. I think
that's really the only downside. Andit's it's heavy. But again, when
we talk shotguns, the more massyou put on it, the less it
kicks. Is just like everything.But yeah, it's it's neat and it's
adaptable, and they were really youknow, they used Steve Fisher a lot,

(02:02:56):
and you know they're calling me toyou know, we're just helping develop
it because Fisher and I both historicallyhave despised pistol grip stocks on a shotgun.
Same so this again, yeah,generally also not a fan, but
this chisel is it's different. It'sreally nice. I mean the different firing

(02:03:19):
grips. I mean, Matt,you see them in your class, and
I'm sure those guys they start toexcel during the short stalking. Probably.
Yeah. So you get something likea pistol grip stock it generally doesn't point
as naturally as a more traditional orthe magpoles, the great compromise angle of

(02:03:41):
the magpole, but when you're doingthat super tight short stalking, yeah,
the pistol grip does well. There, it shines there. Hast playing with
that veepper, I was I wasreminded of that. You're like, I
don't like pistol grips, and you'relike, this doesn't hurt my wrist though,
this is kind of nice. Yeah, And I mean the magpole doesn't.

(02:04:02):
And like even so even even thefactory thirteen oh one or eight three
hundred, because that front strap getsso vertical right there. Yeah, you
know you're not You're not kinking yourwrist up on a bind doing this.
And I love that texture. Yeah, yeah, Ben, kudos on that,
dude. That I actually had totake a tiny bit of sandpaper and

(02:04:26):
kiss just the tips off of thepyramids on this thing because it was a
little over aggressive for my taste.But you can always dull it down exactly.
That was That was actually on purpose. Yep. It's funny enough.
The that texture was originally developed formotorcycle throttles, which is why it's unidirectional.

(02:04:56):
Interesting, it's alien motorcycles throttles.How did you know it was a
guest shot in the dark. Yeah, the thirteen o one. The texture
that was put on the thirteen ohone was done by this really fantastic texture
house over in Italy, and wegot their catalog and we've been kind of

(02:05:19):
deciphering some stuff, but there's abit of a language barrier there. I
actually had the opportunity to go outand actually meet the folks face to face
and really get to talk to them. Interesting. Yeah, that's definitely one
of the easily noticeable things about theeight three hundred is like, oh man,

(02:05:45):
this sinkscratched me. I brushed myleg against this thing. What's going
on here? It's it's it's it'sit's a well textured handguard. Thank you.
Yeah, no where. That wasone of the call outs that Matt
and Rob made, and that projectstarted under Eric and you all know Eric,
if it doesn't make him bleed,he doesn't want it. Well,

(02:06:06):
it succeeded the first time I shotat at SHO Show last year, after
three rounds my support hand one ofmy fingers was bleeding. So well,
like you said, Matt, it'svery easy to knock the tips off of
that absolutely, And if if you'regonna run it like like a duty gun

(02:06:28):
and you've got heavy gloves on,I mean that super texture is great.
I mean you'd lock your hand onthere. It ain't going anywhere. It's
hard to drop. Yeah, it'shard to drop. You know. It
gives you, it gives you theopportunity to kind of tailor it to your
own personal preference, which I thinkwas a good good call. What was

(02:06:51):
that no go ahead? Well,I was We've now that that's kind of
set and running. We're going tobe bringing that into the pro shop,
so if people do want to messaround with that, they'll be able to
buy and go nuts on it.Heck, maybe maybe for a fifty state

(02:07:12):
legal look and build, someone willsend it out to get it hydro dipped,
either real tree or I mean youcan dip it in a wood type
texture arms length. You might notknow the difference. That would be so
awesome. Dip that thing in ahydro, dip it in like a fake
would I don't even think i've seenone in person yet. No, No,

(02:07:38):
just a we gotta fix that dude, get it together, Matt,
Are you going to Thunderstick? No? Some people have day jobs. Thankfully,
mine pays for me to go towell, you know. I mean,
it's been a while since since Dadand I went up to Utah again,

(02:08:01):
and I think I could convince acouple of people, a couple buddies
to join too. John the FishCop would probably jump on board. But
in fact, I can think ofa couple other cop buddies that would want
to go, except they all wantto borrow my thirteen oh ones. You
need to spare eight three hundred.I might know a guy probably. I

(02:08:24):
just remember that class we taught upthere. You and Tony Meyer were there
with your with your just artist outto the gills thirteen ones, and then
here here comes seventy three year oldold Bob with a with a wing Master.
It's all that dude was awesome.All Bob was the heat. It
didn't need any nothing was tacticaled out. It was just pure skill. Yeah.

(02:08:48):
I mean, he'd been shooting thatgun longer than I've been alive.
And then I remember the stock.Yeah, he had he had to stock.
He had like a you stock onit would youth stock. He had
a mag extension on it, somekind of old school three round extension.
He had a he had a polychokeon it, if I recall, on

(02:09:11):
the end of it. And hehad a clapped out tax star side saddle.
He couldn't get through a magazine withoutall the shells flying out of it.
It was so old and war out. But he had been a three
gun shooter back in a day.Oh it showed. Yeah, I mean
his reloads worse. And I rememberone Banilli in that class too, and

(02:09:31):
us Brettas and Banelli's were comparing notes. Yeah, I didn't the other Bob
short Bob, No, you havethe Benelli. I don't think Yeah,
Maran, I don't think he did. I'm trying to think of what he
had. We had three Bobs inthat class. We had to get creative
with nicknames, which I need toget that Bob on one of these episodes.
He's just a fun guy to talkto. Yeah, he was cool.

(02:09:58):
Okay, So we've talked about parts, We talked about all kinds of
that stuff, but any any newgroundbreaking methods you're now loading using your pinky
or I don't know. Short stockingis pretty well established. I have become
more and more of a convert toviolin loading. Not necessarily for me.

(02:10:24):
I have the upper body strength tokeep the gun in the shoulder pocket with
my strong hand and load with theweekend. But when when we had Melody
in class, I didn't even tryto get her to do that because it's
just not physically feasible. I'm like, here, tilt this thing up,
put it on your shoulder, loadwith your strong hand. Violin loaded that
thing. You know, it's perfectand I and I I use it myself

(02:10:48):
because again, shot shells are sobulky. If you want to carry a
good number of them, they're gonnabe on both sides your body. So
you know, if I'm going toreload with my strong hand off the strong
side of my body, I'm gonnaviolinload that thing. That's just how it's
going to be. It's the moststable way of doing it, especially if

(02:11:11):
you're moving. So I have foundmuch. I have gravitated more and more
towards that over the last several yearsof using it, not just for myself
but for students as well. Yeah, and not to be a smart ass,
but another case for that heat shieldM yeah, yeah, please because

(02:11:37):
we will get them. But Ithink that's one of the really cool aspects
also about shotguns is the versatility withthe different methods of reloading. That it's
not just okay, insert mag,hit the bolt, release done. No,
you can you move it whether you'reloading with right or left, and

(02:11:58):
it's just somebody cool options. LikeDad says, you got to be amphibious.
Yes, yes, he does.You're very much part of the loading
process when it comes to loading andshotgun and keeping it loaded. You know,
one mag in for thirty rounds isnice and easy, but you know,
you run a shotgun through a classand you know gonna need to gonna

(02:12:18):
need to load it quite a bit. You know. One thing I've definitely
noticed, and you know, it'sit's tough to say, you know,
I don't like talking about my ownstuff that much, but I'll certainly you
know, throw Cody's name out thereas well, especially for classes and training.

(02:12:39):
And there's so much value that Isee in something that's detachable, whether
it's you know, a hard amountq DC, whether it's the vang elastic
and belcro cards. You know.So one thing that I've you know,
a question that I would always getis, oh, well, you know,
what do I need these acts yourcarriers for? You know, if

(02:13:01):
if something goes bump in the middleof the night, I'm not throwing on
kit with extra carriers and all thisextra AMMO. It's like, well,
absolutely not. You're gonna have what'son the gun. And you know,
to that end, you know,running through training, running through classes,
you know, when there's a bumpin the night, you're going to have
the AMMO that's on the gun.You're not going to have a dump pouch.

(02:13:22):
You're probably not going to have youknow, extra rounds in your pockets.
You're gonna have the AMMO that's onthe side of the gun, in
your side saddle, you know,whatever it may be. And so in
practice, in training, in class, when you're getting those reloading repetitions,
in getting the ones that count isin my mind kind of what matters.

(02:13:43):
So, I mean, you know, reloading from a dump pouch. You
know, I tend to if I'vegot a dump pouch, I'll tend to
backfill any kind of side saddle Ihave. But during the drills, when
I'm trying to keep the gun loaded. You know, it's pulled from the
same spot in the same orientation.And you know, one thing that I've

(02:14:07):
seen, it took me a coupleof years to see it once, and
now I've seen it, I thinkmaybe each time, and each of the
last three classes I've been in isguys loading rounds into their two backwards because
they're pulling from a dump pouch.And you know, Matt mentioned this to
me, you know, a yearor so ago, when we're talking about

(02:14:31):
the follower, and I'm like,really, is that is that a common
problem? Is people loading it inlike I've never I've never done it.
I've never seen it done in aclass. And then sure enough, the
last three classes I've been and I'veseen people load them in backwards. And
you know, again it's it's becausethey're pulling it from a pocket or a

(02:14:52):
pouch or something and you're trying toget it in there and it might not
be oriented the way that you thinkit's oriented. So so Adam, Matt
Cody, you guys have been inour class. You've seen the shoot,
scoot and load boogie where you're moving, you're shooting your it's on you to
keep the gun topped up as anincreasingly rapid cadence of fire is demanded of

(02:15:16):
you. That is intentionally done tothrow that kind of stress on you and
to deplete your side saddle if youhave one, and make you go to
the dump pouch, to the shellbelts some other things. And so we
will frequently see and in like rollingthunder another similar purpose drill, we'll see

(02:15:39):
people go to that that the pocket, the dump pouch, and we'll see
people load one in backwards. I'veseen people. I've seen people load chapstick.
I've seen people load trying to furthercar keys in there role life savers
get really get stuck in the two. I've seen people try to stuff pistol

(02:16:01):
mags in the tube. Once youget that mojo going and your seat,
your mental CPU cycles are dealing withsomething else. Any kind of lack of
automaticity and loading gets you all bobblehosed up. And yeah, I've seen

(02:16:22):
people do it in their backwards.In fact, the last class that I
taught, I taught a little oneday what I call a gauge clinic out
here in Prescott, and it wasdesigned to be more of an intro class
more of a here's the basics ofrunning a gauge. So the morning was

(02:16:46):
all push pull development and the afternoonwas all reloading, but it was reloading
in a different way. So whenwhen we do our two day class,
the standard way we do loading isin position versus out of position loads.
So in position means you're in positionto fire the guns. You're loading with
your support hand. Out of positionmeans you're loading with your strong hand,

(02:17:07):
so you're out of position to actuallyfire a shot. From this class,
what I did was loading from fixedorientation on gun, so your side saddle
or your match saver, or yourbutt cuff. Although nobody had a butt
cuffs, it didn't come up fixedorientation on the body, so your shell

(02:17:30):
belt, your chest rigs, somethinglike that, and then on body non
fixed orientation. So I has hadpeople loading out of cargo pockets and dump
pouches, and I did that deliberatelyto impress upon them the importance of consistent
orientation of your spare ammunition. Yougotta have it in the same place every

(02:17:54):
time, the same orientation every timeif you're trying to grab it with amatic
reaction with muscle memory rather than consciousthought, Yeah, Well, for me,
one of the belt solutions that Ifound and Bill Blower, I think
Bill Blowers introduced it to me.It was the Gunner Solutions Easy eight shotgun

(02:18:16):
caddy and that is that was wonderfuland that even allowed for twins and quads,
not that I can do quads yet, but twins loading was a lot
easier because all the ammunition was orientedin the same direction and it was an
easy access and yeah, flipping arounddoing the violin loading. Very very good

(02:18:37):
product from my experience, good pieceof kit. Easy eight Yep. I
just picked one up. And becauseI've seen him in class a lot,
I just I don't know, Ijust never got into him. So I
picked one up and I'm going togive it a fair shake and try it
out, because I mean, we'vebeen seeing him in class for some years,

(02:18:58):
so they're probably something to them.And the left and right sides can
be adjusted for a length, whichis really nice. Yeah. Yeah,
I've been playing with one for thelast year or so, and uh on
Bill's high praise, and it's doneeverything I've wanted it to do. I've

(02:19:22):
been pretty happy with it for sure, you know, especially it's been interesting.
Uh you know, when I wasrunning my eight seventy, for the
most part, I was twins loadinga lot, and then you know,
got into the thirteen oh ones andthe first generations they don't twins load well
at all, and so I justkind of let it go. And then
you know, recently retired those onesfrom hard testing and got a couple of

(02:19:43):
newer generations and they are much muchfriendlier to twins loading, and so I
kind of going back to it alittle bit, and I'm like, oh,
the Easy eight's getting a little bitmore of a workout now for sure.
And it's it's a it's a goodpiece of kit if nothing else.
You know, if you're not youknow, you don't need to load out
of it and twins load or whatever. Even for going up to the line

(02:20:07):
for an initial admin load. It'snice having those rounds easily available. And
then you know, for my setup, keeping keeping the carriers fresh for their
drills, but doing an admin loadwith easy eight, yeah, what do
you think is super fast? That'swhat's gonna ask. What do you think
it's fast, Adam for you todo twins out of the side the QDC

(02:20:30):
or the Easy eight, Boy,that's kind of a loaded question. Part
of it we're talking about loading,so you're such a dad. Yes,
So some of it is going tobe based on like what rounds they actually
are. I mean to to segueinto a little bit of detail on like

(02:20:56):
the QDC, for example, theretention on it is based around a good
retention for federal flight control, sincethat's the large majority of what, you
know, what most defensive users areare using. And shotgun shells have a
super wide speck so you know,a cheaper bird shot may end up being

(02:21:20):
a bit of a tighter field thanyou know what it is specked around for
federal flight control, which is apretty beautiful round compared to some of like
you know, cheap bulk birds.Yeah. Yeah, yeah, So if
it's a if it's a tight fittinground coming out of the QDC is a
little bit tougher compared to the Easyeight for example. You know, honestly,

(02:21:46):
I haven't put in that many repswith the Easy eight. You know,
it'd probably be pretty comparable, youknow. For for me, uh,
I haven't done enough reps with itwhere I can just grab them and
know exact where I'm grabbing on mywaist. I kind of like have to
look my hand into it to makesure I'm grabbing the proper positions, Whereas

(02:22:07):
when I'm twins wedding off of theside saddle, I've got it right here
in my periphery and i can grabthe two rounds a lot easier. But
you know, so the easy eightis slicks. It is slick. It
is like just going to throw outan idea for you guys to ponder before
I do this last call. We'regoing to close up on your favorite myths.

(02:22:31):
So everyone, think of your favoritemyth with a shotgun that we can
disprove or whatever any other methods thatpeople have been adopting or enjoying even more
or gave a second chance and realize, oh, okay, come Matt,

(02:22:52):
yeah I have. I haven't putenough time into it to really get a
feel for it myself, but havingseen it in person and seen it on
the clock, I'm really fascinated byRhett new Myer's uh cheek shotgun. Yeah
absolutely, I'm not totally convinced thatit's worth the time and effort to learn

(02:23:15):
it versus just running a gun witha stock. For him, it absolutely
is. For We've talked at lengthabout the context that he's using it for
and the reasons behind his choices,and they make perfect sense for him.
And that also translates to other weaponsas well, which yeah, that's the
pistol stuff. Is there's some legitcoolness there, or somebody would actually make
a gun designed for it. Butseeing seeing how Rhet can run a bird's

(02:23:43):
head gun and the mods that hedoes to it with the with the tall
optic mount and whatnot, I mean, it's not h it's not snake oil.
He can actually do it and doit well. I find that interesting.
Very Yeah, I agree, andI mean I was just going to

(02:24:07):
say the like you said, inhis context, it works, it works
perfect, and that the tension thathe sets up and the push poll and
it's all. It's great. It'scool to see that translate across different applications.
And it's more than just a pushpole. It's like a push pole
and a bit of a rotation,you know, two twists of flipping a
kick, and there's some voodoo behindit and it's real and it's and it's

(02:24:33):
interesting. It's all tension. Idon't really have any sort of methods new
methods. I did have some cooland and don't talk about the heat shield
on this one. But I wasout shooting and the gun got hot,
and so I put a glove onand has nothing to do with the heat
shield. Uh, And I ranmy times I was out shooting. So

(02:24:54):
Vancom's got us. We got aset of videos coming out. We're calling
it Shotguns Standards, and so we'rejust gonna go shoot everyone's standards, including
Matt's, Matt Hotts, the Simtecdrills and all that. We're shooting them
on video with a bunch of people, and then we want to do a
challenge so that everyone can get outthere and go shoot their shotguns on a
on a timer and see what itis. And then we had a we

(02:25:16):
had an interesting one the Valhalla drillby Bill at the Meadhall Range. Is
Bill right, Bill? Yeah?Bill, Bill Armstrong? Yeah, Bill
Armstrong. I haven't met him yet. Here's a great guy. I watched
Chris Fry shoot that on video andI'm like, yeah, let's go do
that, and wound up being likeat the end of the drills, we
were shooting and the gun was,you know, blazing hot, and maybe
a heat shield would have been goodat that time, but I said it,

(02:25:39):
No, never that down. Soanyways, yeah, we shot it.
We're shooting with gloves and man amethod of shooting with gloves. You
know, that's that's a skill.And I'm sure patrol guys have to worry
about it and just us in mypoor you know, soft hand civilian life.

(02:26:00):
That it's way different in the timeson a clock. You know.
One of the cool things about shootingwith the shot time where he gets a
ceometric for improvement or not, andthe degradation of gloves like added a factor
of two. It was. Itwas insane. So the so the Valhalla
drill is you know, ten yardson a steel target. You got the
gun on your we shut it atthe high ready and a fully loaded side

(02:26:22):
saddle six rounds empty gun on thebuzzer. You load one, shoot one,
load two, shoot two, loadthree, shoot three. It's it
easy pas ten eleven seconds. Notwith gloves. So it's cool. It
was a really cool drill. Sowhat speaking of gloves, one of the
things that I found with it ishand shape, hand size and glove fit

(02:26:45):
are very critical. Like I usedto run a lot of the SKD pig
gloves. I like them. Ithink they're good gloves, but they're just
a little long in the finger forme, so there's a little extra material
there. And despite all my bestefforts, occasionally that we get caught in
things. The Magpole flight gloves fitme like a glove, but they fit

(02:27:07):
very tight and without any extra fabricon the end of them. And so
that's why I've gravitated towards those becauseI shoot. When I shoot shotguns,
I have gloves on. Just fromthe volume and not having a heat shield.
Yeah, I might have to lookinto those gloves generally, I've especially
with shotguns, I hate wearing them, you know, just because of the

(02:27:28):
loss of Dick's verity. And youknow, loading is I can't shoot that
great, but I can load okay. So like any any any degradation in
my loading is is a huge problem. But you know, especially this summer,
we've just been shooting so many roundsin such a pressed time frame that
we've all been running gloves, andlike it's it's just been kind of a

(02:27:48):
struggle to find something that is goingto work. Like I've I've been running
some mechanics gloves that are okay,and then they're heavy. Yeah, they're
even worse for me with the flopfinger ends having too much length in the
fingers. Yeah, I mean Igenerally, you know, when I when
I wear gloves, you know,for shooting, I'm wearing you know,
a size down to try to getthem a bit tighter. I'm kind of

(02:28:11):
in between sizes anyway, so itsort of works out. But yeah,
I mean, I'll have to checkout the Magpool gloves because yeah, sometimes
they're good to have, and youknow, it's so I've been making do.
But for me, I have prettybig hands. So the biggest glove
that Magpool makes is two XL.They barely fit on my hands, so

(02:28:33):
I kind of like squeegee them inthere and then take them out, get
them nice and sweaty, and thesweat will kind of stretch the leather and
then I let them dry on myhands and they kind of form fit.
So these dainty little things probably takea medium. So we'll see what we
got. My absolute favorite have beenand I don't I haven't seen them available

(02:28:56):
for some time. Checking eBay,I found them occasionally, but just not
my size, and it's the Overlordsby Outdoor Research, super thin. Yeah,
they're wonderful, but matter of fact, matter of fact, pat Rodgers
introduced me to them. Another onethat's been close was one of the super

(02:29:18):
thin Victos gloves. But the problemwith a lot of gloves, especially when
they're on the thinner side, theyand use they fall apart. I have
a pair of Overlords that I shouldbe They should be in a safe and
I should just break glass if Ineed them, because I don't want them
to die. They're years old,they're almost black. They started. Dan's

(02:29:39):
just fantastic, wonderful dexterity. Yeah, able to do all kinds of stuff
that I can't do with other gloveswith those on. But they're just not
as readily available. They they maybe discontinued unfortunately. Yeah, yeah,
if mag Paul ever discontinues or flightgloves, I'll just go back to regular

(02:30:01):
military Nomac's flight gloves or by abunch like what we were talking about with
em. Yeah, yeah, andI have, you know, I actually
have. I'm about ready to cycleout my current set. I'm starting to
tear through the fingertips and I've gota couple of spare pair of stalked away
for just that reason, because Imean they're good gloves. And yeah,

(02:30:24):
I mean when you. When youreduce the thickness to get that dexterity,
you do sacrifice some durability. It'sjust nature of the beast, you know,
you know, easy and fast,pick any two exactly exactly, and
that with the overlords, I thinkthis is this is my third pair because
I bought several and the others aredead. They had a good life.

(02:30:50):
They serve their purpose absolutely, absolutelywell. I think we have now reached
the point we were. We've beengoing on two and a half hours absolutely
some app fantastic discussion, short podcast. It is right. Let's talk about
some of those myths. Let's leteveryone if you if you have thought of
one, let's delve into your favoritemyth and how it's wrong or how you

(02:31:15):
debunk it. Anyone want to start? What's your favorite shotgun myth? Twenty
gauge kicks less than twelve gauge.Okay, let's go there. I mean,
yeah, it's a it's like aseven eighths of the charge of twelve
gauge, you know, and theguns weigh a lot less. They're they're
handy, and like we talked about, physics is a thing and an object

(02:31:39):
that weighs less is going to recoilmore with the same energy. So when
you come down in scale and thepayload, uh, and you come way
down in scale on the weight,you're gonna feel more recoil. And not
to mention the fact that the ammunitiontechnology in twelve gauge is light years ahead
of twenty gauge. Sorry, Matt, I'd love to have really good twenty

(02:32:00):
just just doesn't exist right now.Ye, So yeah, I mean that's
that's where I stand with it.Just anybody else have a different opinion on
it. No. The one thingI would add to it is your typical
twenty gauge slug or buckshot load isthe same payload mass and velocity as a
reduced recoil twelve gauge load. Soyou're right, they're equivalent in terms of

(02:32:26):
recoil impulse. And you've got amuch lighter gun, which is a shame
because twenty gauge such a handy gun. I've got a couple of twenty gage
eight seventies and they're just so lighthandy. They dance in the hands like
like a rapier instead of a longsword. If that makes sense, That
does good one, I rest mycase. Yeah, that's a that's a

(02:32:50):
good one. That's a good one. Next up, anyone, Adam hit
it. I hate shotgun myths sobad. Yeah, they're the worst of
the That's why it's important address Iknow. I mean, you're just terrible.
Can I pass? He can?I mean, just just all the

(02:33:11):
the stereotypical gun store myths between rackingand not aiming, and you know you're
naming of them, You're name ofthem. I know, I know.
That's why Cody's was so impressive.Was a good one, good one,
and mine would be about yeah,bird shot or whatever not going through walls,

(02:33:31):
and well, if you need itto be effective on people, it's
going to go through a wall.I'm sorry. Yeah, that that paper
that Gil House dug up was awesome. Did you guys see that on his
uh what do you put that?I think he put it up on Instagram.
Yeah, Cougar Mountain Solutions. Gocheck it out. He's got a
he had a paper from like anineteen like mid nineties SWAT conference and some

(02:33:52):
guy like an old school box oftruth with all the you know, different
types of drywall and different and studsbetween him. So he had like,
you know, the common sizes ofyou know, like a manufactured home and
then a stick built home and he'sshooting doublet buck through it and bird and
like you know, through thirty eightwood cutters and forty five hardball. So

(02:34:15):
it was cool to see just aclassic one. So I don't know,
I didn't know if you had seenthat from his feed, but it was
a neat little sheet and I toldhim he's got to bring it to Thunderstick
Summit. He was invited this episode. But life does happen, for sure.
Absolutely. I'm sorry I was latetoo, so that's all your life
happened to me? Yeah, absolutely. I thought of one that's you might

(02:34:39):
be a little bit more of ahot take, but that's okay. The
idea that you don't need to knowhow to do a slug changeover, and
my thought process on that is,I mean, you probably don't need to
for the practical purpose of changing overa slug However, forcing yourself to have

(02:35:01):
a very thorough understanding of exactly howyour shotgun works can be fleshed out in
the necessary steps for doing a slugchangeover. There's a lot of different guns
that execute things in different manners,and there's you know, like most things,

(02:35:22):
multiple ways that you can go aboutit. But if you don't have
a pretty good understanding of, youknow, how your shotgun is working and
functioning, you're probably not going tobe able to accomplish it. So in
terms of like seeing that in classes, like, I don't think that it
ever needs to well, I meanI shouldn't say ever. It probably rarely

(02:35:43):
needs to be taught for the sakeof you need you have a you happen
to have a slug on you,and you happen to be in a situation
where you need to change it overversus, this is exactly how your shotgun
works and operates, and this isexactly what it's doing, and in order
to get this route out of hereand put this round back in here without

(02:36:05):
anything else happening or other things thatneed to happen to make that happen.
I like it. I like itfor that purpose. Yeah. One of
the coolest aspects of shotguns are it'sthe versatility. And if you can't take
advantage of that and swap stuff onthe fly, you're missing out on so
much cool list, so much capabilitycame at You don't have any do you

(02:36:30):
You've never heard anything ever negative orthese guys have already touched on most of
them, so I'm gonna I'm gonnachange it up on you. It's not
so much a myth but a commonpractice that I absolutely detest. That's even
better that is this this notion thatit's somehow fun or cool or amusing to

(02:36:54):
take somebody that doesn't understand how ashotgun works and hand them a poem slop
magnum slug and watch them get hairlips and brutalized by this gun because that
person is never going to voluntarily pickup that gun again. And especially in
like a law enforcement context where yousee somebody just look at the little girl

(02:37:18):
got knocked on her ass, thatofficer. You have done that officer a
massive disservice because she's never going topick that gun up willingly when it may
be the thing that saves her lifeor member of the public's life, or
one of her colleagues lives. Soyou have done that officer a tremendous disservice.

(02:37:39):
And that also applies to the individualcivilian. You know, whether it's
a kid or a small statured person, a woman, whatever, you have
ruined the joy of the gauge forthat person, and that to me is
an almost religious transgression or sin.Yeah. Well for me, I'm going

(02:38:01):
in the opposite direction. Okay,we've shot the regular stuff. We're now
loading in a magnum slug. Thisis what's going to happen. It's not
that bad. Check it out.They shoot it and they're going, oh,
nothing to it. Let's shoot somemore. Yes, exactly exactly.
You step them up to it andbuild that confidence, build that skill set,
and work up to it. That'scool, that's how it air.

(02:38:24):
But but the whole you know,you give somebody like a tube full of
bird shot and there's a a threeinch magnum in the end. No,
no, I mean it's unsafe ingeneral just from gun handling, and you
are doing that person a massive disservicein destroying their confidence in that weapon system.

(02:38:45):
Yeah. No, I could seesome kind of a drill where we're
going to mix and match and let'ssee how your requil mitigation is or something
like that, and Okay, there'sstuff in there, but you know,
you know it's coming. That's adifferent stuff, absolutely, Adam, and
I did that with that box ofRandos. God only knows what was in
that that sounds like fun. Itwas, but we but we it was

(02:39:11):
a surprise. We knew it wascoming. And I hate the overuse of
this word and the connotations that comeswith, but it's the appropriate one here.
There was consent, yes, yes, absolutely, there was understanding,
There was informed consent, yes,and they signed the waiver. Yes,
that's the most important thing. Benji, do you have anything. I guess

(02:39:35):
I could just call you Benji.Oh, please don't. Yeah, I
don't blame you. My thing mighthave already been talked about earlier, and
is really I swear I've had thisopinion before now, but I know it's
been touched on in multiple points throughoutthis talk. Is the notion that a

(02:40:00):
shotgun will always be inferior for homedefense to a short barrel suppressed aar.
I just got all my NFA paperworkback. I get to celebrate two stamps
legally, and I'm still going tomainline the shotgun because, as Adam pointed

(02:40:20):
out earlier, I'm not throwing onmy chest rig if there's a bump in
the night, I'm just grabbing thegun and going. So I'm grabbing one
of my shotguns that's got that sidesaddle on it and is ready to go.
Then you get into serving size,which is something I know Matt preaches
very clearly. Where my understanding isthat kags sop for clearing a house right

(02:40:48):
now is seven shots to a targetto consider it neutralized, with five,
five, six in a Mark eighteenplatform. So there's that where there's one
click of Federal fly control nine shot. So my gun either has a thirty
round mag divided by seven or aseven plus one tube with five on the

(02:41:15):
side. That's a lot more targetsthat I can down. Now. I
know my living situation. I'm livingalone in a nineteen fifties house with thick
plaster walls and brick on the outside. I don't have to worry about overshot.
I don't have to worry about shootthrough. I do not have a

(02:41:37):
run in my house longer than fifteenyards, so all of that comes into
play. So know your platform,know your environment. But this notion that
no, you need to buy NFAstuff to be able to really truly defend
your home. No, buy agood shotgun. I like my Baretta's,

(02:42:01):
but I've got my eight seventy witha wood furniture on it from Bangkok because
I live in Nashville. Nashville isvery blue. If I have to use
it because something went wrong, Ihonestly feel pretty comfortable with the police or
the newspaper going listen, I shotthe guy once, I pulled the trigger.

(02:42:24):
Once the guns got wood on it, and it's a pump action,
like what do you want? Youknow, the ke ninety state in the
safe man, I played it safe. So that's that's probably mine because I
always find myself in that argument whereit's like shotguns are for fun, Well

(02:42:46):
they're not though not for smart peoplethinking man, gun what one thought too,
you know, to kind of uhtack onto that in terms of a
shotgun versus a you know, suppressedsbr is you know, concussion and pressure

(02:43:11):
happening inside of you know, smallrooms and buildings, you know. I
don't know if a twelve gauge willbe more forgiving in terms of long term
side effects of hearing and blasts,you know, compared to a short barrel

(02:43:33):
with a with a I don't know. I guess if you have a suppress
or maybe it'll help balance out theshort barrel and everything. But so I
don't know if there's if there's thoughtson on that in terms of just lower
pressure rounds going off, I've I'vepersonally, actually I actually have thought about
that, and I've got a separateSBR with subs and it can work.

(02:43:58):
The overpressure is not going to beas much of a thing. But at
the end of the day, whenI did the calculus for myself, man,
I shoot shotguns inside every day forwork like that, the ringing is
already there. When I weigh thevarious metrics of how bad is my not

(02:44:24):
how bad is tomorrow going to be? For which reasons I'd rather deal with
my ears still ringing than an overzealous DA who's trying to cook me for
life, you know, and thelesser evil when it comes to over pressure.
It's a very good point. It'ssomething everyone should definitely weigh. But

(02:44:46):
I know where I land on thatissue. Now. If JK can fix
that, they'll have my money.So you're saying you're not using a NARP
for home defense, Uh NARP NARPNo, Yeah, I mean that's going

(02:45:09):
to be for a different discussion.But we don't even have one of in
the US yet. Well, Ijust looked it up, and if you
look at the BARRETTA US site that'snot on there. Go to the rest
of the world. In English,it's right there. But yeah, another
topic, Yeah, yeah, same. I have thirteen thirteen oh one stashed,

(02:45:30):
one downstairs, one upstairs. Notthe airs are all locked away,
No, that's accessible. But ifI have time to access a long gun,
you know, let's beyond the mostpistols are convenient. So sitting right
next to the nightstand is my carrypistol, because you know, maybe I

(02:45:54):
don't want to get in and outof the safe every time, but if
I have, if I have theopportunity to grab a long gun to deal
with something in the house, it'sgoing to be this fourteen inch bang eight
seventy and it's going to solve theproblem almost sure. If the problem can
be solved by me, it willbe solved. So you're saying it's your

(02:46:15):
problem solver. He likes lock Fowtykeeps a handy for close encounters. It's
exactly right. Oh they're aliens.So yeah, that's another thing for that
discussion. Ben for your when youtalk to folks like rs burst shotguns for
home defense, that's I tell peoplethat because we only you know, ninety

(02:46:39):
nine percent of those problems you're goingto solve with one trigger press all the
time that you would have with othertrigger press and acquiring the site picture in
between the trigger presses. Hopefully that'sall time you can use to make that
decision to press the trigger in thefirst place. Yep. And if in
a gun fight the most valuable thingis time and that decision making power,

(02:47:00):
then the shotguns should be your bestally because inside of a house, like
in a static fight, from aknown distance, to unleash the power of
thor with one trigger press, that'spretty sweet. So and then you know,
hey, if he's wearing body armor, we we know we got pelvic
girdle shots too, And then that'stwo trigger presses. Well that and I

(02:47:22):
honestly don't care what level plates you'rewearing if I can clap them together through
your torso I won't. I won'tgo into any detail. But I heard
a firsthand story of a guy usingsixteen hundred foot per second slugs on hard
armor and they were they performed admirably. Believe it was super effective. I

(02:47:46):
would not hesitate at across the roomdistances if if I only had a you
know, twelve gage against an armorplate. You know, to me that
that is just fine you opposed tolike having you know, my ar against
an armor plate. You know,it's it's just so much for us.
They're just so devastating. They're sofun, whether whether it's eight, eight

(02:48:09):
or nine double pellets or one ounceled slug coming at you. I mean
they're coming to five checked in plateslike you know, it's one of those
times when the meme was probably correct. Well, I mean, anyone here
who's done contact or combat sports knowsif you get winded, if you get
the wind knocked out of you,you're you get put on pause. It

(02:48:33):
doesn't matter how big or tough youare. You take a hard enough hit
to the cellar plexus, there's likea at least a two or three second
wait, what so, which iswhich is long enough to shift up to
the dome? And what's the I'mprobably showing my age. Remember that comedian
Gallagher? Oh yeah, watermelons,mellets? Yeah, So I want to

(02:49:03):
bring something up because and we cango through them quickly. But when I
listened back to that podcast, sowe were talking, like the folks in
this chat are, we're pretty squaredaway on chuckguns and what I've realized talking
to people on the phone, youknow, for a long time, is
a lot of the stuff that Itake is common sense isn't so common.

(02:49:24):
Yeah, so I feel like wemay be doing a disservice to people who
don't know the stuff that like Adamkind of glossed over. No offense to
you, Adam, you just saidit. You're like, yeah, okay,
you don't have to aim him.The pump will scare them off.
That stuff we know, but maybethe listener might not know. So I
think we should just voice him andsay, hey, one of the myths

(02:49:45):
is that the pump action will scareoff a bad guy. It won't.
Any arguments to that, oh thereare There is such a thing as a
psychological stop without having to press trigger. I mean, it's abs lily the
case. But those are not thepeople that you're probably going to have to
shoot anyway. It's the guy thatlooks at you and goes, you know,

(02:50:07):
screw your shotgun. I don't care. I'm still going to kill you,
right Yeah. I mean, andyou go back to some of the
stuff that the late doctor April wentinto about violent criminal actors. I mean
that it's the guy that you're goingto have to really have to shoot.
Is not going to be at allscared by the sound of a pump going

(02:50:28):
if he thinks that you're not goingto press the trigger, and he's probably
better at reading that level of intentthan you are. There you go.
Well. Also, depending on thestate you're in the moment you're grabbing a
gun, there can be no might. It's will or will not. Yeah,

(02:50:50):
so I'm not I'm not stopping.I am not guaranteed to stop a
threat with a sound my cell phonecan make. Yeah, so that's the
sound. So basically what you're tellingthe guy is, hey, I haven't
prepared properly. I didn't load andmake ready when I grabbed the gun.

(02:51:11):
I have to come out here andokay, now we're gonna go. Yeah,
all right. So the other,the other, very common one is
that a shotgun shoots a spread soyou don't have to aim. And again,
for us, you know, hey, we've been we know this is
not true because we go shoot shotgunsall the time and people miss all the
time. And Matt, Matt,what's the syntax saying for that? Yeah,

(02:51:35):
Dad likes to say, you know, it's not hard to hit something
with a shotgun. It's just reallyeasy to miss. And we see it,
I mean in our classes, wesee it. You're shooting at a
generally like a sea zone steel attwelve yards and bird shot with a shotgun,
and people miss all the time.It really doesn't take much because there's
not that much spread. Even withthe crappiest barrel and the crappiest shot at

(02:52:01):
you know, ten yards, youcan miss very easily. There's a whole
lot in front of you that isnot going to be covered with a pattern.
And worse, uh, pistol griponly shot from the hip. Yeah,
oh yeah, just don't even don'teven yeah, to whom it may
concern, that's each one of thosepellets. That's exactly what it is.

(02:52:22):
And it's almost assuredly not going tobe the dude you're wanting to put around
on. Right. So then wewent through you know, the shot shells
won't penetrate the walls, That's whatI hear a lot, and it's like,
well kind of, but you're notright, But Matt, you know,
Matt already talked about that, andwe talked about a box of truth
and another one just because I dothis all day and so I have it

(02:52:43):
like a list of these that Ican kind of tell which one the person
on the other end of the phoneis going to next. And and that's
the one that they've already talked tothemselves about, is that the shotgun is
it's a low capacity ammunition. Sothat's I think that's where we turn it
on its head. And it's like, is it the myth that shuckin's low
capacity? And I don't think thatpart is a myth, but the intention

(02:53:09):
is that you're not going to haveenough AMO to get you out of a
home defense situation. Yeah, Matt, you can talk about serving size and
all that stuff. Yeah, andreal quick, I do want to throw
out credit that serving size concept comesfrom Tom Givens. That's not something that
we came up with. That comesfrom Tom. And I think it's just

(02:53:31):
a wonderful concept because it's correct.And Ben alluded to this too. It's
not just that the capacity of servingsize is equivalent or better with a shotgun
than it is with an AAR,but the time it takes you to deliver
that serving Even if we lived inour utopia where you could amazon prime automatic

(02:53:52):
weapons to your house, how longdoes it take to put five to seven
rounds on a dude and then transitionto the next student five to seven rounds
versus boom all the time. So, Cody, thank you. I think

(02:54:16):
that was a good thing to notassume that the that the listeners, at
the watchers, at the average people, uh, understand that those are myths.
You know, we gloss over thembecause we do see them all the
time and we've we've busted them.We filled this times over over decades.
But you know, never assume yourstudent knows what you know, because that's

(02:54:37):
that's why they're there. There toget what you know. Hopefully there's value
to that to listeners. I justit was something I had noticed because I
don't remember what it was precisely,but it was like, okay, I
just said that, and I saidthat because it's it's in my head and
and a lot of you guys,you know, everyone in the podcast got
it. And I'm like, cool, perfect, because I you know,

(02:54:58):
read the room. But we can'tassume that all the listeners do too well.
And this is a really and Iknow I have listeners who are content
creators. This is a great thingto bear in mind when it comes to
creating your content. Don't assume thatyour audience knows what you know or that
we're all at the same level,and that for me, that's difficult to
keep in mind up. Yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, people don't

(02:55:20):
know this part. We need toget more in depth or this should probably
just have its own episode. Soyeah, good observations. Yeah, we're
now approaching three hours. Excellent discussion. That feels better, excellent discussion this
though this is not going to bereleasing this week. It's going to be
released next week last night. Lastnight's episode will be this week's episode.

(02:55:48):
Before we do our final thoughts,plugs and make sure you're plugging whoever you
want, whoever you represent. Iam going to say my favorite phrase,
please support those sources that you havefound be beneficial. You've heard these guys
talk for a bit, You've gotan idea who they are. You probably
already knew who they were. Hopefullyyou're already following them, But pay attention

(02:56:09):
to who they represent who they are. If you like what they had to
say, give them a like,give them a follow, subscribe, if
they're sharing stuff that you really like, if Adam's putting up products that you
like, even on your personal page. It's not a bad idea to share
it when math putting on a classand he's announcing, hey, we have
this class coming out. You know, it's actually helpful if you share it,

(02:56:31):
even if you're an individual. Itdoesn't have to be a business page.
So all that kind of stuff helpsbecause the algorithms are not helping us.
They're they're not working in our favor. That works for pretty much everything
social media again, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook. I'm sure all of us
have some kind of restriction on Instagram. I know I my posts can't be

(02:56:52):
viewed unless you follow me. Silly, I don't know, and I'm sure
that there's throttling on all of us. So pay attention that these guys represent
and that goes with everything primary secondary. Yeah, we've been going on three
hours. This has been a fantasticdiscussion. I suspect this is going to
be one of those discussions that peopleare gonna refer to in the future and
go, oh, yeah, youhave to listen to this episode because this

(02:57:15):
is I think this is a goodsequel to our original Gauge episode with the
Hot Twins. I don't know abouttwins, but my dad, I know.
People have thought we're brothers before.Okay, it's weird. Yeah,
but yeah, give this a like, appreciate it. Well, let's go

(02:57:37):
with those final thoughts and plugs.Adam, Well, thanks for having me
Matt. It's always fun and alwaysgood to talk to the rest of you
guys. If you're interested in coolshotgun accessories, you can check out AITUS
Industries, but also definitely recommend getyour guns out, get and I'll go

(02:57:58):
shoot. Go train you get someproper instruction, learn the proper recoil mitigation
techniques push pull. That will makeyour life a whole lot better when it
comes to shooting shotguns. So yeah, heck yeah, Matt, I'd like

(02:58:20):
to echo what Adam said. Youknow, thanks for having me on again.
It's no secret that it doesn't takea whole lot of arm twisting to
get me to sit around and talkabout shotguns because I enjoy them and you
guys, you guys are great tohang out with. I'm glad everybody could
make it. If you want tolearn push pull, if you want to
learn how to run a shotgun,if you want to hear the gospel of

(02:58:43):
the Gauge as we call it,we can be found at simtac dot com.
It's s y M dash Tac dotcom. Uh. You know,
we we have a lot of gooduse with with eritis products. We have
a lot of great stuff with vangKomp, Barretta Wilderness Tactical products make great

(02:59:05):
soft goods, you know. Andthere's a lot of other companies out there
doing good work. I can't namethem all, but go out there,
play with stuff, Play with stuffthat you thought might be me like heat
shields. I was gonna say,don't be afraid of the heat shield there's
something there. Yeah, I mean, just because you've always heard it doesn't

(02:59:28):
make it true. Test it,experiment, play this stuff should be fun.
Violin load trigger time is happy time. People get out there and have
some Yes. Yes, Cody,he's passed out, clearly, No,
he's not passed out. He doesn'tset thirty second pause after heat shields.

(02:59:54):
It's like that other thing that willbe not that will not be named.
Don't push it back another month,Ricky Bobby. Yeah, thank you guys
for having me on. I'm sorryI was late, but it's always great
to talk with Thank you. You'realways great to talk to, you guys
about shotguns. Vang Comp systems.We've been building shotguns for a long time,
just trying to make the guns dobetter at you know, like we

(03:00:18):
say, the anti personnel stuff,taking bird guns, turning them into people
guns. Just the things that makethe guns better and a gun fight.
Of course, the barrel modification systemmakes the shotguns shoot tighter patterns with less
recoil and less muzzle rise. Soif those are things you're interested in,
check out vang Comp Systems. Vangcomp dot com. That's a V like
Victor, a n G C Om p M like Mike Pipopa dot com

(03:00:43):
and we're on that's our all thesocial stuff to vang Camp at vang Camp
and yeah, i'd really like toget you guys out shooting. We got
this cool video series coming out wherewe do the shotgun standards. Go shoot
all all the ones and we'll havea metric and a leaderboard and we'll do
giveaways and you guys earned some vangcompswag and we'll challenge all the other creators

(03:01:03):
out to it too. Adam,you ready on that casino drill, so
we're gonna be doing it. Sobut yeah, obviously you get training,
go shoot the guns. Everyone onthis channel's great and we appreciate you guys
listening about the tube for three hours. Yeah, hey, out of curiosity,
do you guys offer a fifty statelegal customization package, because I think

(03:01:26):
that could be really cool. Yeah, I mean, the on a pump
gun, you're you're good at afive round capacity except for the city.
So the City of New York andthe State of New Jersey don't. They
can't have six rounds. So everyevery other state and municipality six rounds in
a pump shotgun is good to gowith an eighteen inch barrel. So yeah,

(03:01:50):
that's when we came out with thestandard. Those are Mossburg. It's
got a six round tube. Soexcept for the City of New York and
the State of New Jersey, it'sgood to go. You you give up
some features. New York State hasa weird a feature point system as far
as pistol grips and sites and heatshield shields. Yeah, so you give
up some points. So, butyeah, they're absolutely pump guns. They're

(03:02:15):
great and like you said, awesomeurban camouflage. So and then of course
you know the chair cover, ourlittle our little street carry bags. It's
pretty cool in the back of atruck or in the in your trunk.
I think you love it. Thankyou, thank you. So Yeah,
to answer your question, it's prettymuch most of the things on our site
that aren't NFA items are fifty statelegal good stuff, good stuff. And

(03:02:39):
lastly our friend from BARRETTA Ben.Yeah, thank you for inviting me to
crash this. I guess I justkind of signed on and was like,
oh, I know these people,Well it just makes sense to add you
on this. Well, it wasexcellent timing. Excellent timing. Yeah,
well, thank you again for havingme. Yeah, I really don't need

(03:03:03):
to. Eridas Industries makes fantastic stuff. I've got it on my personal guns.
Matt's teaching completely reframed how I approachshotguns both from a design standpoint and
a shooting standpoint. And I've personallygot the Vangkom Systems and Simtach collaboration eight

(03:03:24):
seventy and I think it's a workof art. So everything all these guys
are doing, I'm in the industry. There who I go to when I
buy my own stuff? Yeah?So yeah, anyone who's going to be
a Thunderstick Summit looking forward to meetingme in person. BARRETTA is going to

(03:03:46):
have a couple of folks there.We're kind of going just for ourselves to
learn and meet folks. Yeah,we're gonna We're gonna have some of the
US teams, some of the Italianteam. So we're gonna learn with the
rest of you and try to keepsupporting the market and keep doing stuff correctly
with input from great folks like thoseon this panel. Awesome, good stuff.

(03:04:13):
Big thanks to the sponsors, Bigthanks to the panel. Awesome again,
awesome discussion. Glad this was ableto come together and cover the topics
that we did. I think thiswas incredibly useful. Big thanks to Big
Text, Ordinance, Overwatch, Precision, Filster, Primary Arms Walter. Lastly,
huge thank you to the Patron subscribers. All of this stuff does take

(03:04:33):
time. Time is money, andwell, I don't know what anyone else.
I have a full time job too, so I didn't need to make
time to do this kind of stuff, but fortunately I enjoy it. That's
a great time to put this kindof stuff together, put it up to
the public that hopefully they can learnfrom it, because I know I do.

(03:04:54):
I kind of selfish that way.If this wasn't beneficial to me,
I wouldn't be doing it dumb.So that's all. Have a couple episodes
planned out for next week. Wehave one talking and I don't know what
the title is necessarily going to beat this point. The gist of it
is recognizing fraud and securing accounts likefinancial stuff. We have a couple,

(03:05:18):
we have at least one law enforcementinvestigator who specializes it, as well as
a banker who specializes in this typeof security and tracking down this kind of
tracking down fraud, way different topicfrom what we normally do, and so
that's going to be actually really cool. I'm looking forward to it. What

(03:05:39):
else then, also have Leslie Thalehave a breaching episode, have an explosive
explosive ordnance disposal episode, a bunchof other stuff on the horizon. My
Facebook chat is full of all thesedifferent subgroups of the upcoming episode. So
things are rolling. Let's see here, today's Thursday, so tomorrow or Saturday
probably will have yesterday's armor course orarmor episode published. So I think that's

(03:06:05):
it. I am going to,as per the norm go upstairs and make
sure I still have a family upthere. I probably am going to need
to wrangle the almost three year oldwho's probably beating everyone up. He is
stronger than he looks, so that'sall. We'll talk to you later.

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