P&S ModCast 419 - High Desert Cartridge Company - Primary & Secondary Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey everyone, Matt Lafe here with Primary and Secondary. Welcome
to Moodcast. Today's date I need to look it up,
that's how bad it is. February twelve, twenty twenty five,
Episode number four, one nine. We're going to be talking
to Steve with High Desert Cartridge. Now why are we
going to talk to Steve? I don't know, no idea. Here's why.

(00:26):
Because he developed some cool stuff and he's been working
with some buddies and he's making some good stuff. So
why don't we have some discussions because I don't think
that there are enough discussions about AMMO. People can talk
about what they think, they can talk about the things
that they've learned on Facebook or on YouTube, but how

(00:46):
many people are going to the source or a source.
That's why it's nice to have doctor Roberts to come
on and talk about Termina ballistics. This is what's actually
happening versus you know what I think should happen. And yeah,
so we're going to talk about Steve or talk about Steve. Yeah,
we're going to talk talk about him. We're going to
talk to Steve. We're going to talk about what exactly

(01:09):
what's Sammy Speck Because that's kind of an interesting topic
to me. And and for those of you that haven't
watched before are fairly new. Pretty much all the Primary
and Secondary podcasts are about what I want to talk about.
So screw you guys, screw the listeners. I don't care.
I want to learn stuff. Not really, but yeah, we're

(01:29):
going to talk about some Sammy Speck stuff. We're going
to talk about that as a guideline. We're going to
talk about low development. Our friend Darryl Bulky has some needs,
their special needs, and especially when it comes to ammunition.
The guy has been shooting forever and he likes his

(01:50):
magnum loads. But no, you can't constantly do that all
the time. And so my backgrounds and law enforcement, so
is Steve the podcast thing. I think we're going on
nine years now. I think it might be nine years
next month, or no, it might be this month. Primary

(02:10):
Secondary is ten years old. Love doing this stuff, Love
having these discussions. Next week I have another episode where
as a matter of fact, this Saturday, talking to Matt
Larson about that mitigating moral injury. The week after that,
next Wednesday, I'll be talking to Hiccock forty five and
it'sorted friends we're going to talk about firearms and enjoying firearms,

(02:33):
because I will be the first to admit I was
one of those people that said everything had to have
a purpose. All my guns have to have a purpose,
and they all have to be duty and all this
other stuff. And as I got a little older and
realized that's not the case, it's okay to have fun guns.
It's okay to enjoy this, and it is absolutely possible

(02:55):
to enjoy duty guns. It's impossible to enjoy shooting those.
You're missing out if that's all you focus on. So
we're going to focus on the wide range of what
fun we can have with firearms. And the background, there
is a three D printer going, so I will try
to mute myself as often as possible so you don't
pick that up. I blame those guys from the three

(03:15):
D podcast that pressured me. They twisted my arm and
caused me to have to purchase one of these machines,
which has been pretty much going NonStop for two weeks.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
Now.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
I love it. That's great, kids love it. Yeah, So
we might have a couple more guys jump on if
they don't. I have no problems with doing a one
on one. As a matter of fact, if we just
do a one on one, we might wind up going
down some fun rabbit holes and it's a good time.
So Steve, ohh and my favorite thing I love saying this.

(03:53):
Make sure you, as the viewer of the listener, make
sure that you are supporting those sources that you have
found to be beneficial. If you like what Steve has
to say, pay attention to where he's from. It says
in the title today. If you're interested in this products,
you're probably going to want to look him up. You
might even place an order. But also make sure you

(04:13):
follow on social media, give like subscriptions when stuff is
shared that benefits you, that might change your opinion of
something or give you a better insight, or if there's
something that you really like that you want to have yourself.
Let's say that Steve has a a new thirty two
caliber load. Don't hesitate to share because these algorithms do

(04:35):
not work in our favor. I suspect already YouTube is
restricted aspects of this video because of my background. Not
that we're handling firearms, not that we're shooting or anything
like that, but just that the fact that they're present.
So you, as the viewer listener, get to help us
out by circumventing that algorithm and sharing stuff, and it's appreciated.

(04:57):
So Steve, I think we first actually met at one
of the training summits.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
Your yeah, your summit down there, and Logan was, yeah, yeah,
twenty twenty was the first year, and then I came
down the next year of twenty twenty one.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And so we have friends in common.
I remember Bill Blawer's talking about As a matter of fact,
I think it was Bill Blauers first was talking about
you and then having your name come up with other friends.
And maybe I need to pay a little closer attention
to what's going on here, and so tell me a

(05:33):
bit about your background. How you got to where you're
at now. I do know, yeah, that you have a
solid foundation in law enforcement, and how did you go
from that into ammunition? Did twenty seven years law enforcement?
Actually retired this month ten years ago? Oh wow, Yeah,

(05:53):
I'm pretty happy about that. It's like taking a backpack
off of a long trip.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
You know. Was always Dad wasn't in the guns. My
uncle was a marine right before Vietnam, so fifties, early sixties.
He's the one taught me how to shoot. Fascinated with
that kind of stuff, got my first My first gun
was a revolver back in when I turned twenty one.

(06:19):
It's been a long time ago, about eighty four. Yeah,
something like that. Dan dan Wesson fifteen to two, still
have it, three fifty seven multi you know, changeable barrels. Whatever.
Got into loading, handloading then, and then law enforcement started
with the UH Forest Service. I went to the Park
Service Academy. UH Forest Service was a great job. Got

(06:41):
to ride a horse for a living for a couple
of years on the back country. Park Service academy, did
some stuff with a local park service, and then got
on a regular law enforcement During that time, I got
to teach at the Academy firearms for three years. Was
on a small team that rewrote the academy curriculum for

(07:01):
firearms training, and then the post Academy Training for firearms
did forensics for five years, and that's when it really
swapped over. We've got a a state Law Enforcement Firearms
Instructors Association that started back here in ninety one, and
it was a really strong group still is, but we had,

(07:24):
you know, all the main main patriarchs. I think of
the combat shooting. At the timing, Cooper came out, Ray
Chapman of course, Clint Smith and Bill Rogers and all
you know who's who of the you know, back then,
we had we have a seminar every year for a week.
First two days it is usually armor classes and then

(07:48):
there's three days of or two and a half days
on the range and Wednesday nights use of the business
meeting with Then we have a guest speaker and one
year was Doc Roberts and that they have and I
never heard of Doc before. They had usually have like
an hour or so set aside for a guest speaker

(08:09):
to you know whatever. Doc was on there for like
three hours. It was standing room only. It was non stop.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
It was no complaints of the three hours.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
I'm oh my gosh, No no one left. I think
everybody had bladders was probably peanut or bottles. I don't know.
No one wanted to leave. It was that riveting and
that good. The downside of it was, which was kind
of funny, kind of back because we have a lot
of sponsors during that week. So the guys from back then,
you know atk owned Federal Spear. I don't know who's

(08:39):
it now. But those guys were there, Winchester and Remington
were there. So when we got to the question answer
period about you know, dudyam or whatever, Doc had no
idea who's in the audience. He's going, now, that's that's
a crap around bub bubble, right, you know. And so
a friend of mine nudges me, he says, next time
Doc mentions, you know, one of the uh animal companies,

(09:01):
it's happened to be you know, the reps in the
room here watch the rep you know, kind of cringe,
you know. But yeah, So I got into that, was
in forensics for five years, got into actually ballistics, you know,
through our instructor's seminar. We had some ballistic seminar ATK

(09:24):
presented some stuff, Hornity presented some stuff, you know, Spear
and you know, Federal, and then Hornity had some ballistic seminars.
I went to fascinating stuff. And then the first thing
I got into this is kind of dark subject. I
don't I'm I'll let you kind of where you want
to go with this, Matt. But so I was doing okay,

(09:48):
I mean, you know, I I guess you gotta know
your audience, all right, So I did the investigations for
our county.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
You know, when when people find out more about back
rounds and where you've come from, I think it's it's appreciated,
and especially for me. Yeah, if I find out oh
more about this guy and I like where this guy's
coming from, this is this is a company I want
to support because if this is what he's been through

(10:17):
and this is what his frame or references and his perspectives,
I absolutely can appreciate. So yeah, I have at it.
I love hearing this stuff.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
So I was doing investigations for the for our county
law enforcement place and I was in was there for
twenty some odd years and death investigations, that kind of
stuff as zoomed, crime scene reconstruction, whatever. And so we
had a suspicious death and the are prosecutor wanted to autopsy.

(10:47):
So I always had to attend those. So I get
down there. We don't we have a very rural county.
We're big, you know, about three a little over three
thousand square miles, but we don't have any medical examiner
on board. We have a neighboring couple counties over that
do our medical exam you know, the emmy stuff. So
I go down there of course, wait in line, and
they had a shooting victim from the night before before

(11:09):
mine there which I got there. Officers are there, and
so I going, hey, can I can I watch this?
You know? I mean, I'm not you know, I just
want to, you know, I'll stand off the side. I
just you know, I got a gunshot victim here, I
got a bullet in somebody. It's like, you know, I've
been to a lot of jail testing, you know. I mean,
I've been in law enforcement for at that point, you know,

(11:31):
I can't remember, you know, close to twenty years, but
never attended autopsy. Was first one for the gunshot victim.
And I'm going, you know, so I want to. I
want to watch this, you know. So they get down
long Story Shore, they get down the bullet. Doc pulls
the bullet out and I must have said it. I
thought I had said it in my head, but I

(11:51):
must have. I said, that's a gold dot. He turns
around with it, you know, the bullet still in his forceps.
He goes, you know, your bullets I'm gonna pull out
of people. I'm going, well, I don't know every bullet
you're going to pull out a person, but I know
what that is. I said, that's gold dot. And I
turned around the officers. I said, have you verified with
this bullet is? He goes, yeah, that's gold dot and
I go okay, and I said, I said, turn your
four sept over. Let me see the base of the bullet.

(12:13):
I said that's forty caliber because I could tell by
the base the diameter of the base of the bullet. He
goes yep, And I looked at the officers. He goes yep.
You're right. I'm going okay, So what'd this thing do?
You know? So now I'm looking at the doc and
after you know this all things over, I said, I
know you don't have to do this, but if you
ever have a shooting victim, and I said, I don't

(12:33):
want to get in the way, but I like to
come down and watch this thing. You know, I'm really
interested to see. You know, jail testing is one thing
and I can't stand it when you get these people
that are shooting newspapers and water melts. It drives me nuts.
And jail testing is good, but this is where it's
at for me. It's like this is you know, this

(12:55):
is the end all, and between that and then neighboring state.
I got in on almost close to forty different shooting
victims in about it like a five year period. Didn't
get into them all. Sometimes I got through late. Sometimes
they wouldn't let me in or whatever, but I would.
I would go down there anyway, just used to talk
to the office. I'm not you know, I'm not here

(13:16):
to I don't care about the incident. I don't care
about the names involved, who's involved, if it's an officer
in ball shoot, I don't want to care any That's
not what I'm after. The main things I was after
is I want the launch I want to know what
the launch pad was, other it was the pistol of
the gun, whatever distance. Any barriers to me, barriers are
could be clothing. Clothing is a barrier, anything that's not

(13:37):
you know, right from the barrel to the skin, so
there's anything in between. You know, a lot of times
i'd get there and the shooting victim, you know, still
had to close on so I could tell what the
you know, barriers were. But you know, glass cart whatever
it is, and I'm looking at penetration and then what
it actually hit, you know, talking the dock as he's

(13:58):
going through what this thing hit going in and what
its resting place is. And so those are my criterias,
and I take notes on this stuff best I could,
the best that they would allow me to. And I'm
looking at going I'm not totally seeing of course, we're
look at See. I grew up in the eighties. We

(14:18):
didn't have internet, right, so we had magazines, you know,
combat handguns and different magazines. You know, these experts were
given there whatever's and you got the marshall soon now
you know, stopping power thing and whatever, and but that's
a different technology. I'm just technology has changed, and I
think people are still stuck in I hate to say it,

(14:40):
but it's stuck back in forty years ago almost as well. Yeah, yeah,
agencies are as well. And so I'm going I'm not
I'm seeing way different, so I have to screw my
head around it. So this is after so I just
started doing this. Entered Doc Roberts comes to our the
owner seminar, and so our meeting starts at seven. Dot

(15:02):
gets on there at about a little before eight, and
we're out of there like about midnight. I mean, this
is just riveting the first time anybody in that room's
ever heard of this guy. Or he's a dentist right
from what the Navy, Wasn't he from the Navy's from
the Native right? Yeah, it's true. And it's like, but
this guy is like all this stuff from Factlor's going on.
And you know, I've studied factor A lot of the

(15:23):
guys in the room, I studied Factlors. So it's like
he's all this stuff he's been exposed to and had
access to, you know. And so so now we're getting
out of this meeting. You know this this presentation is mean,
he had a PowerPoint presentation with pictures and everything and
all this information, you know, And I'm just scribbling as

(15:44):
fast as I can and listening to him and everything,
and I pages and pages.

Speaker 1 (15:48):
As you're watching this and taking notes how much of
what you prior, that you already saw in your yourself
matched up with what he was telling you?

Speaker 2 (15:58):
That was the thing is that the only thing I
had to go to up to that point was what
I read coming from the eighties and nineties in the
in the magazines before the Internet. That's all we had.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
So this is pre pre going to all the autopsies.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
Well, no, I'm trying to my basis of my thought
processes was from the eighties and nineties, right. So then
I started getting to the autopsies, and I think I
had been to five or six and then entered Doc Roberts,
and so see, I'm comparing that what I'm seeing versus
what I've been reading all these years. My mind's just going,
I'm in turmoil.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
Here completely completely.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
Dot comes in like a road grader and just smooths
the road out, takes all everything out of blockages out
of there that I've had going. I'm trying to, you know,
in technologies. Okay, okay, technology, I'm taking all this stuff.
I should know this, but it's like I'm not that smart. Okay,
I'm just you know whatever, I'm just a fuzzy peasant whatever.
So we at about midnight, I get I'm to sit

(17:00):
down with Amy. Probably don't remember, but I sat down
with him for about another half an hour. I said,
this is my notes I've had on my shootings, and
abah blah, what are you seeing? And he goes and
he looked at my stuff. He goes, You're on the
right track, he goes, because you're you're taking the Bear
data and not clouding it up. With a bunch of garbage.
You got the launch pad, the mullet, any barriers, the

(17:23):
penetration depth, the bullet, the bullet performance, what it actually is,
you know, and great stuff. And then I was talking
to him about there was the neighboring the neighboring state
also let me on some of their deals into in
that dock. Let me on something at that point I

(17:43):
had not read before, which is the body. So you
can shoot ten different people with the same bullet and
get ten different performance based on everybody's different skin, skin, elasticity,
bone density, even the the organs, the elasticity, and the
different physological makeups. You know, if you're a smoker, non smoker,

(18:06):
on medication and all this kind of stuff. You know,
sometimes genealogy and whatever culturist cultural stuff sometimes plays into
the part of bullet performance, and you don't have not
at that point, I had not read anything about that.
It's like, geez, I got all this stuff going on
here and I hadn't take that into account. And I

(18:28):
was talking to Doc about that. He goes, that's something
that's not really discussed much, how much it's different. And
so after you know, these upper thirty almost forty different
atopes that they've been to came to the same conclusion
what Doc told me. It's like, you can shoot ten
people at ten bullet and get same distance, same launch,
pat everything, and get ten slightly different performance out of

(18:50):
the bullets. It's there's too many things within the body
person to person. It also can change bullet performance, and
so is not a magic bullet. And it just irks
me to no end. When but I think you know
that last you brought Doc back on here, what was

(19:11):
a couple of months ago, it was I I probably
watched that three or four times. It's like it's like,
you know, it's like, Okay, I need this refresher. This
is great. I'm glad you did because he's kind of
like obscured. You know. It's like, bring him.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
Back out of the woodwork here so much, and I
want to bring him back again. I think we still
need to talk about rifles. And when I brought that
up to him, he said, you know, it's the same thing.
I said, I know for the most part, but there
are aspects that a rifle's doing. Rifle projectiles at those
velocities and the construction, right, it's a slightly different difference
or some slightly different performance. So let's address that.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
I think it's necessary to bring the masses up to speed,
up to the you know, twenty first century instead of
forty years ago technology. You know. I think Darryl is
the one that really hit it on the head hard.
You know, accuracy and penetration have been replaced by capacity

(20:05):
in expansion. You know, and everybody when you talk about
bullets into humans, everybody's talking about expansion. But when you
talk about hunting, it's all about penetration, yes, you know,
And I'm going I said, well, name one threat that's
ever been stopped by expansion alone, And I said, I
think we can probably go back to the eighty six
Miami On that one. They had the expansion, didn't have

(20:28):
the penetration. So I think one definitely you want the
penetration first. If you get expansion, then celebrate it. But
if it doesn't expand you know, if you're putting a
bullet where it needs to go, what more are you wanting?

Speaker 1 (20:44):
You an interesting discussion. And the more I get into this,
the more the more I'm leaning towards just a disruption
of the organs by itself, just by the projectile, even
if it's up. Even if it's the shape of it
is not just disturbed. That could it sounds like that's
going to be potentially causing uh uh incapacitation depending on

(21:07):
the organ that's disrupted.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
So I want, yeah, it's interesting. So I had one autopsy,
went to shooting victim. It went through, it didn't there's
no there's a barrier. Was a T shirt? Was it?
And it went through the between the ribs, so no
other barriers. It hit, hit the meat and clipped my
My anatomy's dying here. So it's the lower lower right

(21:33):
part of the heart. So the hole went in nice
and clean, and then out the back it's as if
and then of course the meat on the backside. It's
like the bullet didn't expand until it started like almost
heading out of the heart of the heart. It came
in not expanded, but it came out starting to expand
and then expanded past the heart. And so had that

(21:57):
thing not expanded, it still would have done its job.
But then it started expanding, I said, on the on
the almost as it exited the heart and then got
into the you know, the backside of the meat there again,
and that was team I was just like that was neat.
That was you know, to look at that over and
watch that well.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
And that was another thing that I learned, especially after
talking to people like Haggard and Roberts and Bulky, and
that the primary function of that expansion is to control penetration,
not necessarily to create that larger wound channel than everyone wants.
But as you said, how many people died from the

(22:37):
expansion versus the penetration.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Right, And that's one thing about HaLow points is the
engineering of them. If you run a HaLow point too fast,
they open up too fast, they expand too quickly, act
like a parachute, and you won't get the penetration. And
there's that old silver tip thing. And the opposite way,
if they don't expand at all, then they act like
a full metal jacket whatever and they'll just keep going

(23:03):
right on through. So another thing, and that's an engineering thing.
So you look at say, for example, like the gold
dot short barrel round for like revolvers, which was a
thirty eight plus P or just shia plus P. That's
not the same bullet that they have in a regular
round because that bullet has to do it its job

(23:26):
in a shorter period of time because it's only got
an inch and seven eighths barrel or whatever. You're running
out of two and a half to inch and seven
eighths to two and a half inch barrel snub, So
it's definitely it's not the same bowl. They don't take
it off of this round and stick it in this one,
going okay, here's a short barrel. They don't do that.
They have to re engineer the bullets. So it's going
to perform the same out of the short barrel as

(23:49):
it would say, a four inch revolver or whatever you've
got same thing with if I recall correctly and correct
me if I'm wrong, man, I think they'd also made
the gold dot short barrel. I think in a forty five,
I believe for the little I think for the shortguns
for like the cult officers and the little whatever they
had back then. I think they made a short barrel

(24:09):
for the forty five auto as well, because a lot
of people were carrying those compact back then. But that's
not the same two thirty grain bullet that they would
have in a regular you know, five inch or whatever.
It's a different engineering bullet to do what it needed
to do. Without all the velocity, but it had to
still had to check the two boxes, it had to

(24:30):
pass the FBI standard for penetration, and then the engineer
and the company wanted it to expand. So now we've
got to work on the expansion, and so there's that
delicate power band of the haulow point. It's got to
be within to be able to operate.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah, it is amazing seeing GEIL tests from seeing it
myself with my own eyes and seeing other people doing
the tests and the engineering feats, how they've perfected, almost
perfected the penetration control based on the expansion. It's amazing.

(25:08):
And sometimes it doesn't. Something happens, the round is going
to strike something and it's not going to be able
to expand to its fullest. But in optimal situations where
you have that that expansion and that control penetration, it
is so consistent and to me it's it's just it's
amazing that what technology, what it can do.

Speaker 2 (25:26):
To me, the HST is far and away. I never
seen anything like it before. I've seen it in jail test.
I've also seen it pulled out of some people and
it's like this come out of a jail block or
this come out of a person. You couldn't tell the difference.
I mean, that thing is the most Yeah, it is
probably the most consistent bullet I've ever seen pulled out

(25:47):
of a person.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
And that was one of the things I've really appreciated
that Haggard pointed out, is when you're comparing pulled out
of jail versus pulled out of a human. Yeah, you're
seeing the same results. Yeah, the rounds you can't tell
and see something that's missed by a lot of people.

Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, And you have to also look at bullet for
bullet for bullet. You can't. You can't take an HST
and compare it to an XTP. You're looking at you.
Then you're trying to compare like a Ferrari to a
four x four pickup. It's you can't. It's not the same.
You know, I run a lot of xtps in my stuff,
and I think I sent some stuff to you in

(26:28):
thirty two and stuff. And then Chuck just had his
pocket rocket class here last week or so. And Frank Groth,
I think is the one that posted that picture of
the pistol with my thirty two and people were, you know,
complaining with I think didn't expand I'm going, yeah it did. Okay,
you have to look at how the XTP is constructed,

(26:51):
in how it's how it's made to expand. It's not
going to flower out like an HST. It's not going
to look like a gold dot. It's as some of
the guys from Hornity I've talked to in gile Stock,
it's like a crush expansion. It's an extreme terminal performance bullet.
It's you know, terminal. It's made to penetrate deep. It's

(27:11):
a probably one of the few bullets that is actually
designed for both human and an animal. In fact, Chuck
around some of that my three fifty seven stuff I
did for Darryl Bolki XTP. It runs out of a
snub about nine to twenty five. Chuck put it in
a in a lever gun and it looks like a

(27:34):
core locked and the old Remington cor locked hunting around
it just nice mushroom didn't flower out pedal like an HST.
It was like much mush mushroom round. But that's what
is designed to do. So you can't take one bullet
and say, well it failed, Well, no it didn't, because
that's what is designed to do. So people look at
you know, my thirty two's and my three fifty sevens,

(27:55):
and I'm running in there at XTP power band, which
is around nine hundred nine twenty five and then go one.
Thing's barely expanding. That's what it's meant to do. It's
meant to get deep or not. You know, it'll still
slow down. You know, it's still getting twenty inches of penetration.
It's exceeding the FBI standards. Even my thirty twos, even
my thirty well thirty two long is the is the
wad cutter. But they're all getting you know, but sixteen

(28:18):
inches and above penetration. They're you know, even the thirty
too long is is making exceeding the FBI standards for penetration.
It's like, but the bullet where it needs to go.
Plus most wadcutters yaw and they tumble. I think Chuck
has seen that in his in his gel testings as well.
Mark Frickey has. The wadcutters will yeah, I mean you

(28:39):
get a bullet that's going to turn, tell me about
the wound channel that that that that that thing's going
to create. So it's get in, get in the side
of this stuff, and you know you know, the god sending.
You know, it's like a double edged sword. YouTube has
been great for information, but it's been the worse for information.
So absolutely, And then me, I mean, I you know,

(29:03):
I'm I'm kind of you know, my only company is
pretty small. In fact, I'm not even rate a small
potatoes and more like tater tots. But you look at
trying to appease people, it's like trying to explain it.
You know, I'm not published. I'm just the you know,
small guy whatever. But I've seen enough, been enough. It's like,
that's not that's not how things work. And you're going

(29:25):
to have to take things and get a frame of
reference on the round or whatever and apply it to that.
And you can't apply it across the board. You can
in some aspects, but you have to look at the
engineering and construction on the round and bullets specifically to
make a frame of reference and to give it a

(29:47):
good you know performance the word I'm thinking, uh, you know,
evaluation type of thing.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
So how does Sammy Speck fit into all of this?

Speaker 2 (30:07):
Sammy Speck So I'm not a big you know, I
don't know the history history much as SPEC's been around
for about what about one hundred years. I think. I
think someone can chumb in here. I don't know. You
still have a live chat going on. You can see it.
I can't see something going on all right, so I
probably don't want to see it. But anyway, it's perfectly fun.

Speaker 1 (30:26):
As a matter of fact, what I'll do after this
is possibly go to some of the comments and address them,
because there's some good questions, sir.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
So I'm not the big history on sam I think
it was designed to get a standard between the firearms
industry and the ammunition industry. So if like Matt wanted
to come out like with a three hundred Landfair, Matt
can make a three hundred caliber a thirty caliber rifle
round and put it to spec and blueprint and have
someone make a chamber and a rifle, blah blah blah,

(30:57):
submit it to Sammy, and now you're from and all
over the social media. It's like this hot new thing.
And then Ruger says, man, it's three hundred Landfair. It's
really picking up, maybe we should make it. So they
go to Sammy and look at the all the blueprints
and the ins and outs of this round, the pressure
and everything. It's like they give it to the engineering says, here,
make a rifle based around that round. And so you

(31:19):
have like an Encyclopedia reference to have max pressures and
the different all the different ins and outs of that
every round. It's pretty much ever made. See back in
the one hundred years ago, in the twenties, you had
a lot of wildcat You know, people are wildcatters out there.
I mean that's where the I mean look at you know,
two fifty seven Roberts came in and roughly in there somewhere,

(31:41):
and I think the thirties twenty five ot six, you know,
all these different what twenty two, two fifty based off
of the two fifty savage You had these wildcatters and
you had no way of you know, this is they
didn't have a lot of these guys didn't have you know,
pressure test barrels and machines and whatever. Back then, they
just whatever. And I'm sure that you know, you look

(32:01):
at the history of Olmer Keith, you know, pushing his book,
he had to have blown up several revolvers. H oh yeah,
oh yeah, yeah, you know. So getting Sammy Speck, I
think it was to make sure that okay, let's let
let's tone this down, and let's just have a place
where people can come where they when they look at
this stuff, they know that this stuff isn't going to
blow up in their face. And this is kind of

(32:22):
the max pressures and blah blah whatever. And so I'm
gonna say something, so don't take it out of context.
That's probably only taken out of context Sammy Speck. I
look at Sammy Speck, but all the rounds I make
don't even come close to even getting to anywhere near
max of anything.

Speaker 1 (32:42):
It's not even it's not necessary to go to max.
Yeahs as the upper limits as a defensive round. And
this is where Darryl's rounds start coming in I don't happen.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
So that's where I've found out. Okay, So then entered
Darryl Bolki. So he makes his almost two years ago. Now,
he makes a post on his dB Shooting Adventures about
some three fifty seventy had it's failing, it's it's its
too spicy, it's not going off, it's not accurate. Whatever.
So I met Daryl down there at the Primary and
Secondary summit. He was there both years, but I really

(33:15):
didn't converse with him to the second year because he
put on that the Guns of Body and Clyde, and
I got down there early on Friday, right Friday, Friday
night for that one. That was absolutely just fascinating. So
he put on also class for what's at the Traits
of Gunfighters or something like that, and I took that

(33:36):
class from him, and he and I talked a little bit.
He probably didn't remember me. So fast forward two years
now and I can see this post. So I reintroduced myself.
I said, hey, I can probably help you. Let's get
together so we get the dB load. So I did that.
You posted I did that Faces of High Desert and
you posted I think it was a defensive revolvers. You
posted what I did on there. Yeah, so he says

(33:59):
he wants a load to you know, he's got arthritic hands.
He doesn't you know, beat the gun up and everything.
He's got a lot of antique three fifty sevens. He
doesn't feel comfortable in shooting because there's not a round
out there. He feels comfortable of putting in there without
beating the gun up. And he's got a lot of
money in these guns and you can't replace them. There's
no warranty for him that parts are almost non existent.
So we come up with a load. We go back

(34:21):
and forth I think three or four five times, and
we settle on a low. Well, he's he's going by feel,
I'm going by velocity. So we're well, well, understand me
speck for velocity for three fifty seven. So he says,
that's a load right there. So velocity's about nine to
twenty five, nine thirty, which is the current what I'm offering.
So then we start discussing, Okay, let's let's do a

(34:42):
training round in a defensive round for all your revolvers
'us ever gonna do. I'm going, h thank you for yeah, okay, yeah,
just yeah, that's that's yeah. Okay. So I'm looking at
the training round we just we just finished up on
a nine to twenty five and now we're looking at
defensive round. I'm going, okay, so I'm jumping back. I'm old,

(35:03):
and I'm actually going to hit sixty two this year.
I'm going to be available for solid security. Right, So
I'm going back forty years, right, and I haven't gotten
that out of my head because I used to read
all this stuff. Then I'm going, you can't you can't
get relile performance out of a three fifty seven only
going at nine hundred feet a second. It's just you can't.

(35:23):
Of course, we're talking forty your technology. So then my
mind's rolling back. Okay, let's go up thirty years, and
there's doctor Robert's going, yes, you can, doc see. So
it's like it's like the Angel and the devil sitting
on my shoulders. Right, you got forty years old guys,
and they're going, no, you can, and dog's going yeah
you can. Okay. So I grew up with the ten

(35:43):
percent ballistic jail stuff, not the clear jail stuff they
have now, which is fine, it's just what I grew
up with. So I've got the mold mixed up some
ten percent, put it in the freezer, got it calibrated
to the right temperature in the old air, you know,
get the BB gun with the so far into it,
calibrated right, and now I shot one of them XTP
rounds at with Darrow's load into it, and it got

(36:04):
twenty inches of penetration and expanded, and I'm going, this
is not right. It's not supposed to be able to happen. Okay,
But again, the xtps weren't around forty years ago. But
then again I was like, well it didn't expand very much.
So I do research and it's like it's not made too,
it's only made to do what I'm seeing, and it's
doing it at nine to twenty five out of a snub, right.

(36:24):
So I got my test bed was a Model nineteen snub,
which is two and a half inch barrow, and I'm going,
so I shoot it again. Boo, yeah, I' getting eighteen
and a half in. So I'm going between eighteen to
twenty twenty one inches of in this ten percent calibrated
ballistic Joe, and it's consistent eighteen to twenty one inches.
And those xtps are expanding like they're like they're supposed to. Again,

(36:46):
this is XTP, not anything else. It does what it's
supposed to every round. And I'm going, this isn't supposed
to be doing this. This is fantastic. So then we
fast forward and Daryl and I started talking about forty
one mag them. He goes, if you're let me introduce
you to Giles Stock. I don't know who Giles Stock is.
Do you know who? Have you met Giles Stock? I
haven't you you've heard of him? I think, so okay,

(37:10):
he used to work for Hornity way back. He used
to He also run used to run I think gun
Sight at one time under Cooper who was down there
for many years. So Giles calls me, introduced himself. We
started because his favorite caliber is forty one magnum, and
he goes, okay. So Daryl talks about there's two loads
of forty one magnum. It's a Model fifty eight, which

(37:31):
is the police load, and then you've got the Model
fifty seven load, which is like eleven hundred and twelve whatever,
you know, the forty one magnum load. And so I'm Darrel,
course with the hands and everything, he's wanting the Model
fifty eight police load. And it was kind of odd
because when I first started law enforcement in the mid eighties,
two of my mentors were still packing forty one magnums.
So that was pretty cool. So now you know, here

(37:52):
we go right here, you know all things, you know, yep,
back around and we coming, and so Giles turns me
onto a couple of friends of his. He still knew
that were retired people engineers from Hornity, and talking about
the XTP, it's like you put it in its power band.
Its power band is riding around nine hundred, and I'm going, well,
that's kind of fascinating because that's what everything I'm running

(38:14):
it at. So that thirty two magnum you saw that
was posted by Frank, that's running just shy of nine hundred,
about eight seventy eight sixty. But it's still doing what
it's supposed to be doing. And so I'm talking to
these guys about it. It's like it's power band loves
that you put it in there, especially the big bores.
You pump it up a little bit over nine, say
nine thirty nine forty in there and give it a

(38:36):
little bit of wiggle room. It's going to do what
it's meant to do. And then if you go above that,
you have diminishing returns until you hit about I can't
remember what he said now, like thirteen hundred or or whatever,
twelve thirteen hundred. You're going to see some differences in
the in the bullet performance expansion whatever, you know, mushrooming

(38:56):
out a little bit more, but the juice isn't worth
the squeeze and get more blasts, more recoil. Your follow
up shots are really going to suck. So keep it
around load of mid nines, you're gonna love it, and
then throw it through a lever gun, which is kind
of odd because then Chuck throws my three fifty seven
and lever gun at mushrooms exactly what how that engineer
told me it was going to do. And I'm just

(39:17):
going cool. So now we get the forty one Magnum done.
I'm working with Giles Stock and Gile says, keep it
right there. It's doing exactly what it's supposed to be
doing and cool. So then we go with the forty
four special and I'm doing the same thing with the
forty four special, wearing a two hundred grain low nines
right around nine hundred with a training round, and it's

(39:37):
expanding this like it's supposed to expand. And then we
go to forty four Magnum and Daryl's going, now, I
think I'll hold off on the forty four. He doesn't
want anything to do with that.

Speaker 1 (39:46):
You know, well, and if you have a good function
forty four special and you're not going after Grizzly, right,
why do you need the magnum right other than cread.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yeah? So then yeah, so that so just today, I uh,
we're working on some some lever gun stuff. I just
put out the four forty four Marlin I think yesterday,
and Steve Fisher says, you need to put that in
a forty four magnum. So I can, you know, two
sixty five grain in the forty four magnum. It's like,
I don't see what I can do, so we running
around that.

Speaker 1 (40:18):
Steve is also a different animal.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yep, hunter, more hunter, but he put
it two yeah, put a two sixty five grain. He says,
make a two sixty five you know, forty four mag
It's like not into the hunting rounds for the revolvers yet,
but it's not out of the question. But I think
if I get nudged hard enough, I'll probably make a

(40:41):
hunting round. So we make the same with the forty
four magnet. The forty four is running about eleven hundred.
We bump it up a little bit more. It's still
not full house forty four magnum, but it's got some
poop behind it. And of course at eleven hundred, the
XTP is doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing. Again,
we're not flowering out like an htct HST, but it's

(41:01):
not meant to and people need to understand that. I
get poop pooed a lot about it. I'll show him online.
And so I don't show my jail testing stuff online
because I don't want anybody to while you're you're, you know,
you're doing something with the jail you're you know, blah,
but this wasn't done right. You're you know, you could
do whatever you want to show you your product is doing.
So Rob Garrett from you know, he writes stuff Guns

(41:23):
of America, he does jail testing. He shows it. Mark
Fricky's done some stuff. I let him show the jail testing.
Of course, Chuck has and he shows his jill testing.
And then of course you saw that, you know the
picture that Frank put out there. I let those guys
do it that way. It's third party. I got nothing
to do with it. I send him the AMMO, they

(41:44):
do it, they have at it. Frank bought his AMMO,
so it's like, you know whatever. But you know, I
don't put my jail testing out there. I just think
that people are just going to go, oh, no, you're
just doing this to sell your AMMO. No I'm not.
This is what so I let those guys spurts jeil,
test it and give me the feedback. And I haven't
had any negative feedback. You don't need the blasts and

(42:09):
the recoil, you know, you're just you're beating the gun up.
And that's the other thing, yourself up. Yeah, and that's
the other thing. I came into the Sheriff's office in
the late eighties there, mid late eighties, they were running
six eighty six's and the program manager for farms at
that time thought, well, we need to have full power
AMMO for everything, qualifications, training, and then we give her

(42:32):
a given fifty rounds a month for our own use,
you know, for practice and out there shooting on our own.
A lot of the guys weren't shooting there their fifty
rounds a month. So I was. I was taking everything.
I was a shooter. I wanted to shoot. So within
a three year period, I put two six eighty six's
in the Smith and Wesson Warning department unbeknownst to me,
you know, because they were touted as you know, a

(42:52):
tougher gun than the nineteen or the K frames, because
these are L frames. And we got it. Once they
got back from the warranty to part. Maybe we got
a letter saying don't shoot these with a steady diet
of you know, full house magnums, you know duty rounds,
you know, cycle of duty rounds once a year through them,
but otherwise use thirty eight special or some downloaded three

(43:14):
fifty seven round. His l frames aren't made for it.
And so unlike Ruger, you know that'll if you know,
if you're not shooting a thing, you can pound fence
posts with it. But the only thing that's truly reliable
for a full house three fifty seven consistently is an inframe.
And I learned that the hard way, and I got,

(43:35):
you know, I got the sheriff is on me about
putting a couple of guns. What do you do these guns?
I didn't do anything done to shot him, blah blah whatever.
And so you know, after a few phone calls back
and forth with Smith and West and he finally apologized
to me. But you know, unbeknownst to me, So now
I'm telling people it's I don't give that, you know,
a steady diet. Of course they don't. I'm I'm a

(43:57):
keyboard worrier. I don't know which is fine, And I
understand I have to look at the other side of it.
I people don't know me, which is fine, And I said,
here's kind of what you're gonna expect if you keep
doing that with that gun.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
Well, I'm even I'm even concerned with an end frame,
depending on what the construction of the frame itself is.
So if it's one of these super lightweight the three
twenty seven formance Center, I would be very concerned of
a steady diet of three seven on that guy.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
See I talk end frame, I go back, you know,
to my growing up years. So I'm looking at endframe.
So yeah, I'm alleled, Yeah, twenty seven, twenty eighth type
of thing. That's that's what I go back to. And
it's like, so I was at I got invited to
the Smith and Wesson dinner before a shot show because

(44:46):
my Ammo company supplies Ammo to two of their ambassadors,
Travis Kennedy and Chad Robershaw. So I got invited down.
Smith and Wesson invited me down to their dinner, which
I thought was pretty cool. So I got to shoot
all all the new guns whatever, and they had the
mountain guns there, one in three fifty seven and I

(45:06):
was standing, you know, I went out to the it was.
It was at the dinner was held out an indoor
range and I'm watching went out to the you know,
into the range that range area there, and I'm watching
people and they're smacking them cylinders. It's like I'm just cringing.
There's flaminum and they're you know, there's ah. I'm just
dying here. So finally one of the guns they quit

(45:28):
shooting it, and I said, what's what's wrong with it? Said, well,
the cylinder won't close. I'm going, well, I wonder why.
So I go up there and it's just the projector
rod had backed out. So I screwed it back in
and started shooting it. But within two or three rounds,
you know, we're in a booth, you know, on an
indoor range, and the the cylinder got out of time.

(45:50):
It was spitting the lead so bad. It was bouncing
off the inside of the booth and smacking me upside
the head. It's like it was spitting that bad. It's like, Okay,
I think this gun's done. You guys have just totally
thrashed this thing in a period of what two hours,
you know, pretty disheartening. You know, you got a nice gun,
there and but you know, uh, revolvers have their have

(46:12):
their limitations. But if you treat them least like anything,
I think, what's that saying that Larry Vickers did? If
you if you treat your pistol like you if you
treat your if you treat your nineteen eleven like you
treat your lawnmower by a glock or something like that.
You know, so you still gotta be careful slapping cylinders

(46:32):
and stuff with revolvers. You're going to put them out
of time and cause a lot of problems.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
Well, I remember why he was bringing that up, Brian,
and it made some people upset. And oh, it's a fact.
It's just a fact. It's a mechanical device.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
It's yeah, it is. It's the same thing where well,
I won't met well definent like that on you know,
defensive revolvers. You I'll post something on there, and there's
a couple other or pages are on Facebook the same thing,
you and iron and I'll well, somebody will post something.
I'll put something on there. Good gosh, you got eight
ten people pilon on somebody like okay whatever. Then one

(47:13):
guy says, well I check these names you said, and no,
one's like, can't no one's been published and blah blah blah. Well, okay,
I'm not been published. No I'm not that big of
a deal. But I don't. Of course, you don't know
me from any keyboard, and I understand that I have
to keep that in perspective.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
Well, though, if if you pay attention, and if you're
if you're paying attention long enough, and your circles happen
to intersect with some of these other circles where some
of these published people are, you might have been to
events where you've seen them perform, and then you just
kind of go, yeah, I'm not going to read that
person's stuff anymore.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
No, it's just being published.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
It doesn't automatically mean legit. No, it just means you
got paid. Good job.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
Yeah. Yeah. Somebody put on a oh I can't remember
what page it was on, and looking for a something
to do with with thirty eight whatever, and I said,
run a run a wad cutter. We have, but it
doesn't expand, it doesn't have to. Well, I want I
want something that's going to get penetrated and expansion. I said, well,

(48:17):
it's the short barrel gold dot. Good luck finding it.
I hear they're going to put out a batch of it,
but I haven't seen it yet. I don't know if
it's out yet or not. I said, good wadcutter, I
said less blast, less, recoil, faster, follow up shots.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
And that's all based off of some other person's interpretation
of what's important. Clearly they have never heard of Doc
gk R, Doc Roberts.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
That's that's so. I actually put a I put a
link to that podcast out there, and the first two
people were making fun of it. Who's so? Who was
the fourth guy? I didn't recognize him. He was the
older guy with the beard you had on that one.
You had Chuck, you had Doc, and he had the
other guy I will have he was Was he do

(49:00):
O D or something or CEA or something? He was
I can't think of his name.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
Okay, oh you mean Chuck Haggard. Yeah, you don't know
who that is?

Speaker 2 (49:10):
Now?

Speaker 1 (49:10):
The other one, oh, Fred Fred Fred Fred so. Fred
worked for Crane and he just he just watches these
on occasion. He has a really cool background at working
for Crane, working on working on different special projects, and
he just always has a really cool perspective of stuff.
And I guess he had. He helped debunk one of

(49:32):
the AMMO was it the what was that? It was
like super fast five five six round which it turned
out to be all fraudulent that the military was.

Speaker 2 (49:44):
Yeah. Yeah, kind of reminds me that stuff Chuck mentioned
in that in that same podcast about this company called
Liberty AMMO. Yeah, they're running this ultra ultra light stuff.
They were there at shot and I was I didn't
never heard of him, and I'm going second light weight.
This name sounds familiar when I hear this, It's like

(50:05):
and finally is like, you know, I'm getting old. So
I was like, oh, Chuck, Chuck mentioned it, you know,
And they had a they had a jail block sitting
there and exactly how and I took I said, can
tell you a picture? This is sai. Oh yeah, so I
got a picture. It exactly how Chuck described it in
your podcast. The most of the pedals come out about
like four inches, and then he had this little little

(50:26):
tighty little bebies size, a little babie thing that penetrates
like maybe fourteen sixteen inches or whatever. And I'm just going,
this is breg about yeah no, And I'm again I
did the same dang thing like I did in front
of that doc. You know, I thought I was talking
inside my head and I must have talked a little
bit isa this nake oil, and I was like, oh

(50:46):
my gosh, because there was somebody there next to me
that he was, you know, trying to sell this thing
to just pretty much. It's like I said, this is
not going to stop anybody. I said, it might. I mean,
obviously a little pellet right there, this single little job there,
if it gets or freights the heart whatever I said,
it probably get up. You'll probably get a psychological stop
out of it because it's probably gonna hurt like hell obviously,

(51:07):
Oh yes, give them.

Speaker 1 (51:08):
The doctor so much work to do that doesn't see.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
Yeah. One, but I said, if you have a determined person,
it's not going to do it, I said.

Speaker 1 (51:17):
And that's also, yeah, who knows if if there's any
barrier penetration, what's the round going to do? Or if
there's barriers to penetrate, how's the round going to perform?

Speaker 2 (51:25):
Probably like a Glazer safety slug.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
And that's not a good thing, not.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
Not yeah, like not, I think you'd be better off
like a twenty two long rifle. I mean you know,
how many people, yeah, I mean, how many people survived
that round? Like zero? You know, I mean they don't
die it right away, but unless they get to a doctor,
then it's like yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you put

(51:49):
a mask on and flatten the curve, it'll We're good.
We're good to go. We're good to go.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
That's funny. Have some comments here, and then after after
the comments, will do a quick little break, refilled drinks,
quick bathroom break, all that kind of stuff. Then I
want to talk about the resurgence of thirty two and
then other fun calibers. So let's see here we have.
This is from Matt, regular viewer supporter, talking about how

(52:21):
we could have the exact same rounds go into ten
different people and the structure of the people are all
slightly different, and so the rounds are going to slightly
be different. Matt has to say this that makes me
think of any misspelled this, and he says it later
in the chat. This makes me think of Reston's ability
to survive his shooting. Jared Wrestlin got shot a bunch
of times with the first shot right here and into

(52:42):
his jaw with a forty five ACP, so his ability
to survive the shooting, partially due to his increased musculature
versus out of shape fat people and how bullets travel
and Jared at the time and probably still is in
very good shape. And typically when people are in very
good shape, their bodies respond to trauma much more better.

(53:06):
So let's see here, here's another one. Brian Quinn, I
believe I know the answer to this. But is there
any advantage to a bullet breaking apart in an animal
or human? I believe no, but I want to share
the info here. People claim all the energy stays in
and so my response to that, and right now we're
talking about an guns. How much is energy the wounding

(53:29):
mechanism here or is it the actual penetration and the
tearing the crushing of the round. There's not a magical
energy field creating trauma. Energy is part of this. Energy
is what is helping the projectile to move. But ultimately
the wounding is being caused by the tearing, the crushing,
the poking of the round. And basically duty and subcaliber

(53:53):
pistol rounds are just doing that. They're poking a hole.
And this is this is Doc Roberts one oh one.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
Yep, yeah, I mean you look at archery, Yeah, yes,
poking a hole. And then of course you know with
a with a broadhead either a TriBlade or or a
quad blade head, when the animal moves, obviously there's there's
tearing and cutting going on, but prior to that, the

(54:20):
damage is done with one hundred percent of there's no breakage,
nothing coming off of an arrow, per se. I mean
unless an arrow breaks in a half or something, but
there's not parts or pieces coming off that arrow. It's thump,
it's in there, all the energy is expanded into it,
and it's one deal I you want, In my opinion,

(54:42):
you're gonna want that maximum weight retention of a bullet.
I have found that it does a whole lot better
than stuff breaking apart. I go back to that liberty
animal thing. You know all the little pedals all break
off rip. Yeah, there was a couple other snake oils

(55:04):
that were out there late nineties, early two thousands that
you know, all these petals are soposd to break off
and do all this damage. And it found out that well, yeah,
it's going to do damage obviously, but if the person's determined,
it's not going to do enough to make hills beans
a bit of difference. It's just going to piss them
off more. It's like can like a glazer safety slug.
A lot of it was just surface stuff and never

(55:25):
got any penetration. If you've got someone who just ow
ow ow, yeah there you know, psychology, I'm done and it.
It's going to stop them. But I don't want to
have to rely on that at all. I've been in
a few oiss myself and bullet retentions. The one guy

(55:51):
I hit, it was a Dui stop. I took him
low center on the teeth. It was was our one
six eighty six's. It was the Remington one hundred and
fifty eight grain, a semi acted hall of point. It's
a lot more of exposed lead. And the bullet hit
him low center on the teeth, and the bullet just
pretty much exploded on impact. It had no penetration whatsoever.

(56:13):
The only thing that put him down was a shark.
This is where the bullet actually came apart. Actually helped
the bullet came apart. Actually, well, it would have killed
him if I had gone all the way through, that
would have taken out the lower brainstem. But the bullet
exploded and pretty much a particle of it or some
shards of it went up inside in the brain cavity

(56:34):
and that put him down. But that's anomaly.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
Yeah, and that's all. Oh, that was going to say,
that's one of the things we need to pay attention to.
There's a reason why we can prepare now we're not
doing well. This is better than a sharp stick. No,
we want to stack the deck in our favor, have
everything optimal.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
Right. So, also had a happened to be an TP
hit on one of my those victims, on those autopsy thes,
I went to hit them in the teeth, and that
sucker went through that plowed through the teeth and did
its job as it was supposed to. And so a
better constructed bullet plowed through didn't matter what It had

(57:18):
actually come in just above the jaw bone and took
out a chunk of the job bone the teeth and
just kept on going. And of course then it tumbled,
but it held together. I think after we waited. If
I recall that bullet was an then you know upper
ninety percent tile of its of its weight retention, and
it's that exit. No, did not exit. It stayed in.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
Crazy quantum efficiency has this to say. Sammy is useful
for making mass production AMMO. When you're making your own AMMO,
you rarely use Sammy as you're bumping your as you're
bumping your shoulder, back point zeros or twish from where
it's fire formed the chamber.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
Yeah, I look at Sammy Speck when I started doing
the lever action rounds. I wanted to see what the
Sammy speck is for the chambers and for the most
part of course lever action guns I'm gonna I'm looking
at you know, forty years ago. I'm still back in

(58:21):
that era. Sorry, Matt. You know the Marlins and the
Winchester's back then, you know good guns, the chambers were
in spec whatever. Nowadays, the worst defender that I I
see our a RS I got, you know, I make
two twenty three and I've got I get people call me.

(58:43):
You know, I think over the ten years I've been
doing this now, I think I've had four different call,
five and five six different call. But know, your animal
doesn't run in my in my gun. I was like, well,
you know, of course, I always always gonna blame the
animal first, you know, And I'm finding I do armor
classes for ars about twice a year, and I'm finding

(59:03):
chambers whipping all over the place, and that I think
ars are probably the worst offenders. Probably some others are
probably as bad, but I have more exposure. They are platform,
so I can you know, I'm saying, that's just it.
It's horrid out there, and so I'm going, not so
sure it might be Oh no, okay, you know, of
course when which I'm sure you'd probably have seen this.

(59:26):
If you try to say anything about someone's choice of equipment,
you may as well have slap their mother, you know,
So you cannot ever criticize their choice of equipment, parts
or pieces. Otherwise you can make their value. They're going
to make a troll doll and stick pins in you.
So I'm just going, you know, I've made millions of rounds.

(59:50):
I've never had a problem. Well, you're I was going,
I said, you ever heard of Kyle before? Yeah? I said,
he uses my stuff, I said, Bill Blauers tap right, Yeah,
I've been to you know. I said he used my
two twenty three. Yeah, I said, and Bill, now Kyle's
running BCM. I think Bill runs Hodge. And I said,
those guns ain't cheap. And I said what's that. Yeah, yeah,

(01:00:15):
they're in spec. I said, that's this is where Sammy
comes in. I said, need to have that chamber of
slug dear check for Sammy Speck. I said, something's not
something's not right with it. I guarantee it. I said,
you know, I run. Bill's running my stuff in a
very expensive rifle. Never you know, thousands and thousands run.
He's been on with me for four years now and
never had problem. Kyle to four. Uh, he's been about

(01:00:38):
three years. I got two of the Smith and Wesson guys,
so they're actually they're shooting to Smith and Wesson stuff.
Travis Kennedy does a lot of the most of the
videos of the new all the new Smith and Wesson stuff,
you know ars, platforms coming in, pistol stuff. But every
new ar coming out from Smith and Wesson, my stuff's

(01:00:58):
getting run through it. And I said, you might, you know,
check his videos at that's all my stuff he's running.
And then I said, during COVID when Amma was hard
to find, I said, I got a call and I
met down at this this is one of your summit
deals again. Met. I met Mike Bihalski down there the
first year and he calls me during COVID. He said, Steve,

(01:01:19):
he got NAMO. I said, really, he goes, you can't
find AMO, someone like Unius, says I et Ammo. Man.
We just you know, I gotta got to test all
of our guns before he sent them out. So I
sent him twenty thousand rounds down there, and he was
using my AMO to test his guns before they went
out the door. And so I'm, you know, pretty honored
by that. And then I've got Bill Rapier and am

(01:01:42):
Tex shooting uses my stuff. And but let's see, so
the question, I just see the question here.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
Oh so this is a follow up from quantum efficiency.
I would greatly agree that AAR chambers are all over
the place. I have a two two three chamber that
came from the factory at one point four sixty seven.
And this is why Chad Albrecht of School of the
American Rifle is so successful and so relevant in this realm.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
That was that first year you had both Chad and
Mike Mahalsky down there, and I met with both of them,
and Chad had a time where he had no class
to teach. He and Mike and Chad brought that huge
AR with him, so I got pictures of him with
that huge you know, ten times a size AR or whatever.

(01:02:30):
I was actually able to sit down because I do,
I said, I do a couple AR armor classes a year.
I was actually be able to sit down with Chad
and Mike and going, can I talk to you guys
from me? I said, this is kind of what I'm doing.
This is my outline, this is, you know, my curriculum,
what I do. And I went with Chad, Chad is
way beyond me and p engaging and engage and everything
that a guy's a gauge in maniac. But we went

(01:02:56):
over some of the stuff that I was seeing and
he was seeing and the stuff that I do my class.
I said, I'm not I'm not pulling a sixteen hour
day like you do, you know, which I think is insane,
but hey, whatever, but this is kind of you know,
we pingage stuff and whatever. And Chad and I were
pretty close on some of this stuff. I picked up
some stuff from him, obviously, And it's like Chad, you know,

(01:03:18):
Chad goes to all these different classes and picks up
stuff from different armor classes. He's gone to different ways
of doing things and but the main thing we hit
on and Mike this, you know, Mike Mahowsky do the
same thing was chambers. That is the worst, absolute worst
part of an AR all over the board. I mean,
you know you can have you know, you can like

(01:03:42):
Matt Landfair can have is you know Landfair ar company
whatever and have a company that's a well known company
make the AR forum or whatever the parts and pieces,
contract out the parts and pieces. But it's what you
how you what at what level of Q back do
you want these parts to be done at? And that's

(01:04:03):
the problem. Well, it was made. It's like Bolk Carrier
Goods was made by micro Best. I understand that was
made by Asthmuth. I understand that, but at what specs
did they give micro Best to make this thing at.
So I'm not knocking micro Beest. I'm not knocking that company,
but I don't know what the contract between the two
was to say that was this part made to you know,

(01:04:24):
mill spec which is you know which I that term
is getting over will overused, but you know.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
Those ten years ago, what are you talking about it?

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
I know it. It's like it's like the term tactical.
You know, if you put tactical, it is something you
add twenty percent of the cost to it. So is
it made to the original stoner specs of you know,
the original whatever or cult spex whatever it is now
or where's it at? You know? And that's where gauging
comes in. And that's when I started finding a lot
of this out of spec stuff out there. And that's

(01:04:54):
why some of these companies really get a bad name.
It's like, you know, and then when you're on a
Facebook page or a gun for him, and a person
puts out there, I want to you know, I'm gonna
do a budget build. I just cringe every time someone
says budget build, I just cringe. I said, so here's
the thing, I said, I don't care what your budget build,
but your gun is two things. It's the bolt carrier group,

(01:05:15):
the whole bolt carrier group, not just the carrier or
the bolt, the whole thing and the barrel. After that,
you can probably budget build on some of the other parts,
but those two you best not. You best not. And
it makes sure it makes sure you head space. And
of course some moron usually gets on it. I've never
had space or anything like that. Mne always work. I
like going well until it doesn't and then then then

(01:05:36):
you're gonna get on here the picture yourself with half
your face gone, so you know, you do you whatever.
But yeah, Sammy Speck really helps with that. What I've
what I've done which was really helped me out is
the two twenty three I build is the powder I use,

(01:05:56):
which is industry only powder. You can't get it. It's not
a retail name for it or number for it. I
can get five five six velocity with two twenty three pressure,
so you can use it in either chamber and not
have a problem with it. So that's one of the
things that I really wanted to do is people say
was it two twenty three. That's why my tags on

(01:06:16):
my box to say two twenty three slash five five six,
and they'll say, well, which one is it. I'll say
it's both, Yes, it's both, And I say it's win
win for everybody, because, like I said, it's five five
six velocity, you're not losing anything, but you're also not
pushing the pressure limit either, so you can run it
in the older ars you know back from the seventies
eighties that they were two twenty three chimber or your

(01:06:37):
bolt gun, that's two twenty three, I do some which
will be on the website. Assume some varmint rounds. I
use some vmax stuff for people, and I got to
watch the pressures on that thing. And so the powder
I'm using, it's like it's a really forgiving powder. I
can use it, and I can use it in a
three eight to thirty at six, I can use it
in a lot of different stuff, and the sures just

(01:07:00):
aren't there. And so that's the stuff I use. And
like I said, you know, Kyle and Bill and all
these other guys have been using it for years and
zero problems. And it's a once fired brass. I may
be switching to new fired new brass here party next month.
The once fired stuff I've been getting, there's been a

(01:07:21):
lot of rejects. I won't put it out to the public.
The quality just isn't there as it used to be.
Off of police ranges. I don't know. They must after
they shoot this stuff, they must go out there and
tap dance all over it. I have no idea. Probably yeah,
but which was really funny. Quick story. Kyle DeFore calls
me up and says, hey, do you make a long

(01:07:42):
range two twenty three and I said, well, I do
for my friends for the last few years. He goes,
send me someone. So it's a seventy seven grain match king.
So I sent him some. So then he about two
weeks later, I get phone calls, you know, want they
want to order some seventy seven grand I said, how
did you hear about this? And he goes, well, I
was in I was in Kyle's class. He was shooting

(01:08:04):
it and I'm going, oh, I said, it's not in production. Man,
It's like okay. So I got called Kyle. I was going, hey,
what's what's going to say? Is that? Man, you send
it to me, I'm going to be using it. So
you know, it's just it's cold bar shot stuff. Man.
Your stuff's either going to work or it's going to not.
So if you don't have any production, I suggest you
do it. It's like okay, you know, It's like I

(01:08:25):
don't know if you ever talked to Kyle tofore before,
but he's pretty much matter of fact, you know, and
stuff like that, and so.

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
I think he's overdue to return. It was years ago.
He was on within the first yearish, So.

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
Then I started doing it and then people were really
it was on I think it was on I was
on one of his posts he made on Instagram about it.
He was he was at six hundred yards and doing
B eight targets and just nailing it, and the guys saying,

(01:09:00):
you know, so I got on here and says, yeah,
it's you know, yeah, I'm making it, but whatever, because
what brass you use? And I said it's once fired brass.
And there was such a freaking silence on that, and goes,
you use it once fired brass. I said, yeah, it's
getting that kind of performance. I said, yeah. I said,
we're not looking at taking a hair off of a
flea at you know, six hundred yards here. But I said,

(01:09:21):
if you can keep it all, you know, in an
eight ring six eight hundred yards, you know, I think
we're doing pretty good here, you know, for once fired
brass mixed head stamp, right. I think the biggest thing
is the powder I'm using, and then the charges are consistent.

(01:09:42):
Like when I scale out my stuff, I go to
one hundreds of a grain. Most companies my size are
running to tenth of a grain. I run to the
hundreds of a grain. I can dial my stuff in
a lot. I can you know, even a few hundreds
of a grain, especially at you know the bench rest
guys whatever. It can make a difference depending on the

(01:10:04):
volume of the case, which obviously affects pressure. But I
go out to the hundreds of a of a grain
and I can really dial those those loads in.

Speaker 1 (01:10:14):
So, just for people listening, just because because I'm mat,
I'm your friend, one hundredth is a lot smaller than
a tenth a tenth, yeah, just so you know old
debacle about the quarter pounder versus.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
That yeah, oh my gosh, yeah that part. Yeah yeah.
People are saying, well, how can you do one hundreds
of a grain? I said, because my scale reads it
to me. I've got I use a lab scale. I
don't use the scales that most people use from our
CBS or Hornity or you know, most of the reloading companies.
I go to a lab company and that's the scale
that I use. And the scale is extremely expensive, so

(01:10:51):
it and it's dead nuts accurate, and so that's what
I do my loads off of. So every load that
you buy from me is based off that scale. And
amazingly enough, these Mark seven machines, those powder drops, they
will they will stay within that hundredths of a grain cool.

Speaker 1 (01:11:12):
They totally will, so we still have more a couple
more comments. Address will take a quick pause. We'll go
back to the comments. Then I want to talk about
the rise of thirty two. Okay, I want to talk
about machine solids projectiles. I also want to talk about
your clients, about your the people like Bill who are

(01:11:33):
your normal the end users that listeners may be familiar with.
So with that mind stand by, this is going to
be a pause of about a minute thirty eight seconds.
It's commercial time.

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
You're right back.

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visit Walter Arms dot com. And I dropped my phone
and we're back. That's kind of a new addition, and
I kind of like it. I was able to run upstairs,
make sure everyone's still alive, and run back downstairs.

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
So let's do So you was listening to your ads
there for Walter. So Bill Blowers and Bill Rapier both, yeah,
do stuff for Walter. And I provide the AMMO for
those guys. And so if they're shooting new Walters and
do stuff, they're using my ammo.

Speaker 1 (01:14:01):
Yeah. So you have Bill, you have a rap Pier,
h Blowers and.

Speaker 2 (01:14:07):
Ray Pier, the two Bills.

Speaker 1 (01:14:09):
Yeah, and then who else?

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
Who else was on the Kyle before? Yeah, Travis Kennedy, Chadwilbershaw,
and then Darryl Bulky.

Speaker 1 (01:14:20):
And that's on the official side, and then who knows?
Because I know I'm running your stuff. I don't remember
if it was. I can't keep track of what I
had for breakfast. I know for a fact I have
thirty two? Did I have some thirty eight too?

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
I think I sent you some thirty eight?

Speaker 1 (01:14:38):
Yeah, okay. And it's it's amazing how people are still
pooh pooing Wadecutters as an option or yeah. Yeah, we
have people like Mark Frickey who can basically show you
on paper this, this is what you're looking at, and
what you've discussed has just reinforced these concepts. We don't

(01:14:59):
need these super hyper velocities. We don't need this amazing expansion.

Speaker 2 (01:15:06):
Now, that was the first thing, is that you don't
need this thing going. Like Caleb Giddings would say, mock
Jesus or Mark five. You know, like you go back
to the three fifty seven darrel load. You know it
burn low nines, low nines to mid nines. And I'm
getting expansion and how that XTP should be performing and
it's doing it out of a snub. I go on, Okay,

(01:15:29):
you can't find the gold dot short burrow, which is
the gold standard for a snub load. But I guarantee
these xtps you put the round, it's going to do
its job. It's going to get the expansion, it's going
to do everything it needs to do. Even if you
got four late which I don't like, four layers of
denim type of this test. I think that's idiotic. No
one wears four layers of denim, but well Canadians, Yeah,

(01:15:50):
the Yukon Alaska, it's going to punch still sixteen ancients,
the penetration, it's going to punch through it's so heavy clothing.
You just want a bullet that's going to get through
all that stuff, and an XTP will definitely do that
without a problem. In fact, a lot of the rounds
don't even a lot of the rounds, hsts whatever, sometimes
won't even expand. In fact, you can. There was such

(01:16:12):
perfect condition when you pull them out of the jail
block after gun for four layers again, I can reload them.
They're they're they're in that you know that kind of condition.

Speaker 1 (01:16:20):
I have seen that myself. So this random person Black
Ring Tactical has this to say, I've shot High DESERTMO
for the last three years exclusively. I won't buy anything else.

Speaker 2 (01:16:34):
That would be Travis spar.

Speaker 1 (01:16:37):
He also said he's going to be mad at me
when he sees me trolling him.

Speaker 2 (01:16:40):
No, No, that's good Trevis. No, he's he's a good guy.
He's got a training business up there out of Olympia area,
Washington State, and that's my stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
So I don't know if anyone's making this or have
ever thought about it, but at twenty five or twenty
seven caliber or diameter caliber made to be put in
a jframe would be pretty sweet, especially if you could
stuff six or seven in a jframe. And for me,
so I just read that for people listening, not reading
for me. That's where thirty two falls right in the
thirty two h R Mag, thirty two Long, thirty two Short,

(01:17:20):
and three twenty seven FED Mag, which I think it
was Haggard who really started harping on it, and I
had to look into it, similar to Chuck Presburg and
the whole role and special thing talking about this concept
and I have to see this for myself and then
seeing it for myself and going, oh, there's something here.
I really like this.

Speaker 2 (01:17:41):
I've not seen anybody talk about those calibers in there.
You're starting to get closer down to like a twenty
two twenty two magnum. Twenty two magnum is I think
out of a snob me, it'll go through a cowskull
and it's loud. It's loud, it is. Yeah, I carry one.

(01:18:04):
I carry a three fifty one C in the pocket
all you know, all the time they're up close and personally,
you put one punch it, you know, it'll do its job. Yeah,
it's you know.

Speaker 1 (01:18:15):
And so his following comment was I love my three
fifty one c and my six thirty two. You see,
it would be cool to split the difference.

Speaker 2 (01:18:23):
Yeah, I run a fourth. I run the exact same
groupings that Mine's the four thirty two so blued version
of it. But yeah, but the thirty two's people would
pooh pooh that I is going. Don't don't it passes
the FBI standards in the pot.

Speaker 1 (01:18:38):
Yeah, funny how that works.

Speaker 2 (01:18:43):
Yeah, So the thirty two came about right after Revolver
round up. I went down to gun site revolve around
up in twenty twenty three. Darryl called me shortly thereafter,
said hey, can you make thirty two? I said, make anything?
What he got? He goes, well, I need you to
make it calibrated to a certain revolver. I said, We'll

(01:19:04):
send me the revolver and I'll calibrat it to it
to the sites. He goes, I can't do that. There's MDA.
The thing's not out yet officially until shot show of
you know, twenty twenty four or last year. And I'm going, well,
how am I supposed to calibrate it to a gun
I don't even have. He says, well, we're just going
to do with the old fashioned Why you make the
round and send them to me. We'll test it on
the prototypes I've got and I'll let you know where

(01:19:25):
we're at. I'm going, okay, I just need a launch
I'll need a launch pad. He goes, well, see if
you can find like a three twenty seven LCR. I said, okay.
Had it been fate because within three days I found
on a local gun for him for sale, you know,
three hundred bucks. It's like, whoa, I'm on no album.

Speaker 1 (01:19:42):
That's unreal. It is those are going like for what
six right now?

Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
Yeah, I'm not tracking.

Speaker 1 (01:19:49):
The price was until the sixth No, and I have
a four thirty two as well and love it, great
shooting gun. Before that, my my go to was a
three twenty seven, the the LCR, fantastic gun.

Speaker 2 (01:20:06):
So I I do the rounds out of the LCR.
I just calibrated him to the LCR and we went
back and forth, I think three four different times, and
he said, that's it. It's calibrated to this new gun.
I said. I said, okay, And then so that was
wad uh. Those are wad cutters. So and Brian, Brian

(01:20:30):
Eastridge and I have this thing going on. So Rob
Garrett has this this thing called Sunday Night Snubs on Instagram,
and here about a month or so ago, Brian was
on there. He wasn't on as a guest or anything,
but he was listening and someone made something about lead
and I just made a comment led as such a
vulgar compound. And Rob says, okay, Steve, it's enough, you

(01:20:54):
know whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:20:54):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:20:54):
I didn't, that's first Antra said. And so Brian and
I have been going back that lead. So he and
and Daryl made this video recently about the mountain guns
came out and then they're talking about loads, and Brian
actually said that. He goes, well, well, Steve doesn't like lead,
but I like the cast lid load. He does that
right in his video. It's like so he sends me
that he cuts that out and sends me that excerpt.
So anyway, so I despise lead only because of my

(01:21:19):
machines back here, I'm running. I'm trying to get production
out like my nine machine. You know, if I can
get ten twelve thousand rounds out of day, I need
the production people because I service some law enforcement agencies
with their practice. Hammo and lead. You're just having to
clean out the dyes every couple thousand rounds. The bullet

(01:21:42):
feeding gets all lead stuff in it. The you know,
it's it's it's not worth my time if I'm a handloader,
so be it great if you're trying to get production out,
lead is like the worst thing ever. So there's a
company back east I get my wad cutters from. And
the coding on this stuff is probably as close to

(01:22:02):
like a spray on bedliner of like for like a
pickup truck. You can take your fingernail on it. You
can't even scratch it. If you take a knife to it,
you better be sharpening your knife afterwards. I don't know
what this stuff is. It's some cosmic whatever, but it's
hard or anything I've ever seen on a bullet before.
So it's fine. It runs through my machines, doesn't leave
any residue. It's great stuff. So that was the that

(01:22:25):
was the wide cutter was it is. Actually it's calibrated
to the UC guns and it actually calibrates to the
LCR at the same deal because I was that's all
I had at the time, and it eventually it get
calibrated to the both I think you're like, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (01:22:44):
Oh so in your experience then, were you not a
thirty two user prior?

Speaker 2 (01:22:49):
Nope?

Speaker 1 (01:22:49):
So how is this experience adjusted or changed your mind?
With thirty two?

Speaker 2 (01:22:57):
We go back to the same the same deal again.
It says okay. So Daryl says, okay, got the wad cutter.
Guess what we're heading to next. So I said, you
want a defensive round, don't you goes Yep, I'm going, okay,
see what I can find. Luckily, XTP Horny makes a
thirty two one hundred grain. My watercutter is ninety eight
hundred grain. I said, okay, So again I go back

(01:23:18):
to what my recent research and discussions have been with
other people in the industry. It's like, get it in
the nine hundred range and it will perform and boo, yeah,
you know, I get it about I think I'm at
looking at my board here all my secret herbs and spices.
I think it rounds about eighteen seventy. And we saw

(01:23:38):
that picture that Frank mentioned had posted out there. It expands.
It's doing it, you know, every time. And so here
I am mixing up Jill again, I'm going thirty two. Really,
you know, no idea. I mean I remember what it
came out as a kid, you know, in nineteen eighty
four came out and H and R came out with it,
and I thought I'd bep. I got to hang on,

(01:23:58):
I got to plug in my uh plugging my computer. Here,
my batteries get a little low.

Speaker 1 (01:24:04):
It happens.

Speaker 2 (01:24:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:24:06):
Well, and I remember hearing or reading that James Bond
carried a thirty two ACP and I thought, what that's
just dumb. Nowadays, oh I like thirty two ACP. That's
a cool.

Speaker 2 (01:24:19):
Yeah. I thought about getting one as a kid, you know,
back in the eighties when they came out. That'd be
pretty cool. And I have never got one. And then
here it comes up again. Here go full circle again.
And so I'm out there with the jail block and
I'm going really eighteen inches of penetration. The XTP is
opening up. It's like, dang you, Darryl, Now I got
you know, and so you know load, So I got

(01:24:41):
the XTP, shot the snot out of a block, and
it's like it's doing everything it's supposed to do. I
can't deny it, you can't. It'd be so it's too light.
No it's not you put the you know again, people
get away from okay, so let's put the onus and
the responsibility accountability on you, people that are behind the

(01:25:02):
launch pad a little bit, you know, with where your
bullet placement is supposed to be. And I guarantee you
put it where it's supposed to be, it's going to
get the penetration or it's supposed to be where it goes.
And I found out in you know, listening to that
last podcast with you and Doc talking about jail testing, generally,
if you're going to get the results in a jail block,

(01:25:24):
you're going to see it pretty much in a human.
Some differences, but if it's going to perform really well
in a jail block, it's going to do well in
a human. And that was my one of the things
that I found out throughout that that period when I
was doing that. It's like, I'm seeing these bullets perform
at x same way I'm seeing in jail barring to

(01:25:47):
not hitting you know, you know, jaw bone or teeth
or you know, oddball stuff. But that XTP bloiled right
through them teeth. But and I'm looking at that going
thirty two, like thirty two, thirty two, thirty two you know, okay,
all right, I'm you know, less blast less recoil, right,
so easy to yeah and yeah, yep. So I had

(01:26:10):
to get me at thirty two. So I got one,
and then then Daryl hits, well, you know, thirty two long.
It's like, what's a what you know? So I'm going
back and I'm reading some research, and thirty two long
is I think is the lowest caliber. Now don't quote
me on this, but I think it's the lightest caliber
that still meets the FBI penetration standard. Is thirty two

(01:26:34):
long wade cutter.

Speaker 1 (01:26:34):
That's even better. Oh I love thirty Yeah, I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:26:38):
Yeah. So I my wife is not a big firearms person,
but I got her an old model thirty one three
inch and just got it finished for her birthday. Got
some Gary Eastridge Brian Eastridge's dad has that firearms company,
that story. They're back in Oklahoma. He got me a

(01:26:59):
set of st egg stocks for it. Just put it
on there, less blast less recoil, great follow up shots
and it gets We're getting I think Mark Fricky was
getting close to eighteen twenty in the penetration from Along
and the wadcutter is in and up butt first, so

(01:27:22):
it's yawing, it's turning in there, and that which means
you're geting, you're getting some good, some good damage in
there as it's going through there. Anytime you can get
a bullet to turn, it's gonna, you know, open up
that hole more and cause more damage. And that thing
reliably almost hits butt first when it ends up in
the jill block.

Speaker 1 (01:27:43):
I love going telling people about it, and I love
going to the range, whether it's a police day or
just buddies getting together. And they haven't messed with revolvers,
and they definitely haven't messed with anything thirty two, especially
thirty two long. And we're going to be shooting forty
five ninees, forties, you name it, three p fifty seven
and all the regular stuff. And then I kind of

(01:28:03):
giggle a little. You're gonna shoot a thirty two long.
Now here's this little tiny bullet. Yeah, don't discount it.
This loaded in the right gun with the right ammunition.
This is a viable defensive thing. And you shoot it
and you just you can't help but giggle because this
is so much fun and there's nothing to it. I

(01:28:25):
think it's just as you just as you just pointed out,
if you have people that might be a little sensitive
to recoil, to the report, the noise, the blast, it
doesn't get much better than that. Twenty two definitely, definitely
is a great option. But this is a little bit more.

Speaker 2 (01:28:44):
And yeah, this checks all the boxes for people that
are you know, again, like you said, recoil and blast sensitive.
You can almost shoot them things almost without without any
hearing protection, almost especially a law. It's like this is then.

Speaker 1 (01:29:02):
You can make a full day of it and not
not get worn out. Except for the double action trigger press.
Yeah that's gonna write. You're going to get a good
work out there. But other than that, the round itself
going off is going to be very pleas funny.

Speaker 2 (01:29:14):
Funny you brought that up. I do were a couple
of revolver classes. I got a firearms training company as well.
These revolver classes, and people within about you know, throughout
that about half a day, their hand is given up
on them. I said, you know what I said, Striker
fire guns have made pansies out of all of us.
Our hands have gone wastefully limp because of not running
a double action revolver after all these years, I.

Speaker 1 (01:29:36):
Said, even worse.

Speaker 2 (01:29:38):
Yeah that's true.

Speaker 1 (01:29:39):
Yeah, well made nineteen eleven. Man, that's a teak yep.

Speaker 2 (01:29:44):
Yeah. So anyway, so then I got the the hall
of Point done for the defensive part of things, and
then I needed to find a training round to match
that one, and nobody makes. Of course, I don't make
my own bullets. Nobody makes a TMJ or a FMJ
equivalent in a thirty two. So I went back to

(01:30:07):
the same company that makes my wadcutter, and they make
like a it's a cowboy bullet. It's like a round nose,
flat point, kind of looks like something you'd see on
a like a forty five long cold or something, but
it's thirty two, same hard coding on it, same grain
as the as the Holow Point hunter grain, and I
got it matched to the defensive load. So all my

(01:30:30):
revolvers now, except for the thirty two long HALT and
the forty five long COLT, have a training round which
is cheaper to shoot, and a jacket HaLow Point, which
is a defensive round, and they both shoot point to sites,
so you can switch back and forth on one and
I have to worry about you know, your site movement, whatever.
And the load development on revolvers is is way, way intricate.

(01:30:53):
There's so many different tolerant stacking that could be possibility
in revolvers. And so I get a lot of people
that will call me, so I'm not getting the velocity
you're saying you're getting out of it. I said, well,
here's kind of the scoop on revolvers, I said, I said,
you know when I do when I do load testing,
especially load development for revolvers, first thing I do is

(01:31:17):
I pull the cylinder and I pin engage all the
cylinders to make sure they're all the same size. If
they're not, I note that and I mark them which ones?
Which is that going to be a change in my velocity?
And so.

Speaker 1 (01:31:32):
Perfectly perfect and a half inch two and a half
inch oh, so the question is I'm joining late, but
interested in what barely load two and a half inch
measure that.

Speaker 2 (01:31:43):
That was the base platform was That was my night
Model nineteen snub which two and a half inch burrow.
So it's it's calibrated out of that. So I take
the cylinder out and I'll pin engage them and I
measure the each cylinder hole to see what they're gauged
at the measurement of, and I make note of each
one of them. Then I have to look at the

(01:32:06):
the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone where
that's at. And then you look at the forcing cone itself.
Is it or out? Is it beat up? Is it centered?
Is it you know whatever? Is it the eleven degree,
five degree whatever, you know whatever they're cut out, depending
on what company you got. And then you look at
the barrel. So before I do a load development on that,

(01:32:30):
and then you have other things with different guns, is
the thing time correctly? Is the when? The when? The
when the bullet? You fire the bullet and it makes
that jump across that gap. Is it centered on that
forcing cone or is it off to one side? Because
that's going to affect velocity and bullet performance because now
if it's not centered on that cone, you've now deformed

(01:32:51):
the bullet just enough to where that thing is not
going to be very accurate. It's pretty much going to
be out of, out of, round, out of It's kind
of like a tire that doesn't have that it's not
been got the wheelweights on its balanced correctly, sorry balanced,
So all this stuff comes in effect, and then I

(01:33:12):
will actually I will slug my all my test bed barrels,
my guns, sorry, test bed guns like this model nineteen
two and a half inch that I used. I will
actually slugged the barrel and measure it to see where
it's affits inspect or not. And because that all effects performance, accuracy,
and velocity. So you have a revolver has a high

(01:33:34):
amount of talent, possible tolerance, stacking, and all of those
have to be in and so it was kind of
odd and odd. It was interesting. Lipses did a Darrylan
and Why did a quick thing with lips'es at shot
Show and at the very toward the very end of it,

(01:33:55):
about the seventeen thirty Mark Brian chimes in with a
new Ruger four one magnum, and then Jason Klosner gets
in there talks about the forty one. Every forty one
he's ever had has always been dead nuts on, probably
because no one makes forty one much and all the
tooling is good, but you get into the forty fours
and the forty fives we go back to the ar chambers,

(01:34:19):
there's some variances all over the board within things, and
so that's one thing that you're going to have to
under people. You need to understand between Sammy speck here
and then the firearm you get and then the ammunition
you buy. It may not be the ammo. It may
be the guns just a little bit off in one
of those areas. I just talked about cylinder gap, forcing,

(01:34:41):
kill and barrel and it all adds up. And so
if all those aren't inspect with each other, you're not
going to get the performance that is guaranteed from that round.
And you're going to be saying, well, it's the ammo.
May not be. So it's kind of like having a
nineteen eleven or a Harley. If you're auto mechanic, you
may not want to own a lot in a sense,

(01:35:02):
right so, or a race car. But so if you
buy these older revolvers and you want to shoot them
in whatever, you may want to have one checked out
if possible. So I do gun shows once in a
while for my animal company, and I always have in
my pocket a couple of pin gages, and so I

(01:35:23):
see a revolver, I'm looking at outcomes the cylinder and
I'm throwing a pin gage down them. That's the first
thing I'm going to how far off is that going
to be? And then I look at the end shake,
which is the back and forth movement of the cylinder,
and then the gap. And then if I can, I
have a little mirror I pack and I put it upside.
You know, notice, so I can see the forcing cone

(01:35:45):
to see if it's wearing on one side of the
I'll tell you right there if it's not in time, right,
it'll be wearing on one side of the cone. You'll
see a nice shiny spot on one side of the
cone versus whatever that's hitting it really shallow or really
close up toward the cylinder and then funing the round
down the down the cone into the barrel, and that's

(01:36:05):
going to tell me that thing is, you know, it's
out of time. It's going to need some help. And
it might be just as much as just peeing where
the where the hand hits the lock mechanism on the
back side of the cylinder. But that's you know, that's
outside of a lot of people's wheelhouse to be able
to do that kind of stuff. But those are the
things to look for, and it affects ammunition performance and

(01:36:26):
you have to understand that. And so I have to
When I make AMO, I try to make it to
the lowest common denominator. It's like a race to the bottom.
Especially with two twenty three. You go back to the
ar platform where it's all over the board. I have
to tighten my my specs down to make sure it's
going to fit the most widest variety I can. And

(01:36:48):
so some guns aren't going to like it. Not that
it won't run, it's that maybe the the the accuracy
isn't there because I can't, you know, extend the bullet
out to hit the grooves and the lands and stuff
and whatever, and it just doesn't fit in your chamber
or whatever as well as it might fit in another one.

(01:37:08):
But it will run. And so it's like, well, your
animal is an accurate We'll tell Kyle before that when
he's pegging stuff at six hundred yards with my fifty
five grain, you know, I dare you go ahead and
you tell him that, you know, so I know it's accurate.
It's just we got tolerance as we have to look
at and it's something I can't deal with. And so

(01:37:29):
if you don't like the animal, if it could be
one animal shoots better in your gun, another I'm with you.
That's just the name of it. You know, you can't
get anything.

Speaker 1 (01:37:36):
And that's the concept that we've covered at length with shotguns.
You got a pattern your gun, and there's no guaranteed
this latest and greatest super shell is going to be
awesome in your gun. You just got to test it
out and see.

Speaker 2 (01:37:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:37:50):
But the problem with that is that takes effort and
you actually have to go and do something and you
can't just rely on Facebook, YouTube or whatever to tell
you what the answers are. You need to see it
for yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:38:01):
That's the thing I do with my load development. So
every load that you that I have out there on
my website has been spiostis skilled. My revolver around all
those have gone through gauging the cylinder, checking the gap,
checking the forcing cones, slugging the barrel on my test
round on my test bed revolvers. So make sure that
everything we're at so I know where it's at, so

(01:38:21):
I have a baseline, so if something isn't right, I
get you know, have you slugged your barrow, have you
done this? Whatever? I said, this is my loads are
based on X and here's my ex I'm you know,
pretty transparent. Here's what I'm my test bed gun spect
out at. Does yours come close to that? If it does,
then I don't know what to tell you, but I said,
I'll bet it probably doesn't.

Speaker 1 (01:38:42):
Yeah. So on the topic of revolvers, make sure I'm
highlighting the right one. Blackering tactical Again, if you had
to recommend a Revolver to a normal guy and someone
who's probably grown up with some of my autos, primarily
what model or caliber would you recommend.

Speaker 2 (01:39:03):
I'm a Smith and Wesson guy, So I mean I
had that, I still got that Ruger LCR in thirty
three twenty seven. I shot some three twenty seven.

Speaker 1 (01:39:11):
It's like, yeah, no, I'll go thirty two or thirty
two H and R thirty two long or H and
R over three twenty seven because three twenty seven just
like going forty four mag I don't need to do
that against humans and I'm not you too, going up
against grizzlies.

Speaker 2 (01:39:25):
So you got to blast. You got all that kind
of stuff. It's I would go thirty two two things
that I found, and it's been pretty well stated out
there from other re Wolver guys. Thirty two you're not
you're not giving up much ballistically from a thirty eight
and you get one more extra round all the thirty

(01:39:46):
eighth or five round, thirty twos or six round, so
it's all there. I mean, it's it's like almost the
perfect package, less recoil whatever. You can get the app
to market, apex, trigger kits, whatever, or send it away
and have you know, a decent job done. I use
Nelson Ford down there in Arizona for most of my

(01:40:09):
Revolver stuff, although I just picked up a Model fifty
eight and I had from why his dad and why
did the pull the pulled apart and did all the
gut stuff with for me before he sent it to me.
But that's what I would recommend. I know, people you
know on those pages on Facebook Mac, it's like you

(01:40:30):
just want to reach through and just slap somebody, you know,
they like there are none so blind as those who
will not see. It's like, I'm not you know, you're
already set in your ways. I'm not sure why you're
even competing. It's just you know, it's just it's not
it's not productive, you know. To me, it's like when
someone calls me and complains about the AMMO. You know,

(01:40:52):
and then okay, so give me a solution. What you know,
tell me what I can do, help help me out
here to do my product better. Whatever. To me, it's
like walking up to your kid and slapping them, going
don't do that anymore, and then walking away without knowing
what I do. I don't know, you know, I'm sure
people at bad mouth me like any other company. Well
they make a bad product, they do blub blah. Well,

(01:41:13):
then I can't fix what I don't know is going
on out there. So I you know, I would tell
everybody call me, tell me what you're seeing whatever I mean.
I got my guys, you know, Tile to four Bill
and and the two Bills and trap with if you
see something in Darryl, especially Darryl, then you got the
offshoot of Daryl. You know that people that you know
went around Daryl Staff, you know, Chuck Haggard and Mark

(01:41:35):
Frickey and Brian and now I got a few gun
writers Shane John and sure if Jim Wilson he uses
my stuff. He makes an order about every three four months.
I don't know how old he is anymore, but he's
getting up there, but he's using my stuff, and I
want feedback you know, if it's something like, well, I

(01:41:57):
wish you'd make a load in this well, okay, I
may not be doing that, but if there's something within
the load that I can tweak, I mean, and I'm
not I'm small enough, which I don't see myself getting big.
I want to be small enough to where Matt, if
you called me and said, hey, can you you know
within the loads I'm already making, Okay, can the thirty two?
Can you poop up? I want you to make a

(01:42:19):
batch of like one hundred rounds of this wad cutter
for me? Could be can you poop it up like
another fifty feet a second? Yeah, I do that. That's
that's no cost. I just I just you know, adjust
my my powder, drop and run off your rounds. That's
not a big thing, you know. If you want something
like can you make a like you know, like Steve
Fisher wants a two sixty five and a forty four magnum,

(01:42:41):
I might do that. You know, it's not that big
a deal. It's just a turn of a couple knobs
and drop a little bit different powder, and it's not
that big a deal. But doing a whole different caliber
on these machines. It's thousand dollars on a conversion, and
it's kind of kind of I'm going to do a
shameless plug here. But when I got another thing I
got into thirty two with Daryl is Mark seven, which

(01:43:04):
is the machine. I got six of these things. They
don't make a conversion for thirty two. And so the
gal that I have working for me, her husband works
at a local dam down here. He's a machinist. His
friend is a machinist. His friend is a machinist extraordinary.
He actually makes his own tooling to be able to
make parts. He's so I gave him, took the specs

(01:43:27):
off of a shell plate off of two twenty three
so it was closest to the to the inner rim
of a thirty two, and he made me a shell
plate for a thirty two to fit a Mark seven.
And then the bullet dropper. There's no bullet drop for
a thirty two. He machined out a bullet pillar is

(01:43:47):
now so I'm the only one in the country is
running thirty two magnum and thirty two long on a
Mark seven and then comes the forty one magnum. So
if anybody who out there who handloads, who's watching this
right now? Thirty two is its own animal. You look
at if you're a handloader and he load on like
our CBS or alignment or whatever, a rock chuck or whatever,

(01:44:09):
whatever loader you're running on. There's no shell plate that
the thirty that the forty one magnum shares with. I
mean there's some calibers. A shell plate will work with
two or three or four different calibers. They all use
the same shell plate. Forty one is own animal. So
again we miked out a shell plate. I use one
off of a three oh eight, and he machined out

(01:44:30):
the groove and got me a bullet dropper. And I'm
the only one in the country running forty one magnum
on a Mark seven. So those are the things I
go through to get stuff done to people. If you,
if you have a load you want within the calibers
I make. It's not a big deal for me, but
I can't go out and spend one thousand dollars on

(01:44:54):
a caliber conversion machine for these things, Pleas it takes
me half a day to switch out a caliber and
celebrate his machines and dial in a load, and then
only make you like one hundred rounds. Please don't call me,
Please don't call me.

Speaker 1 (01:45:07):
I can imagine.

Speaker 2 (01:45:08):
Yeah, I've had people do I said, if you want
ten thousand rounds, I'll do it for you. You know what
I said. Well, it's yeah, it's going to cost you.
Get a group by, get some get a group by right.
But if it's something within a caliber making, it's probably
not that big a deal for me to do it
for you. Here's and I want to and I want
to stay that small go ahead down.

Speaker 1 (01:45:30):
So here here's a question that I personally appreciate because
I think there's still there might be something to this.
I want to know why, why we have why the
revolver guys in Brace thirty two but semi auto guys
rejected thirty super carry Because I love thirty two now
and I too love thirty two. I still think there's
a possibility that thirty super Carrey could be a thing.

(01:45:52):
The problem is there aren't enough for me, There aren't
enough options because I'm still waiting for what was the smith?

Speaker 2 (01:46:00):
Oh? What was that?

Speaker 1 (01:46:01):
It was a it was like a little tiny nineteen
eleven almost but it's not. But it's a polygun double stack.

Speaker 2 (01:46:10):
CSX, I don't remember.

Speaker 1 (01:46:13):
Yeah, something like that in thirty Super Carry made so
much sense because, yeah, you do have the characteristics of
thirty two, and you're going to have greater capacity, but
you're also going to have it's going to be easier
to shoot. And if you're if you're able to reach
those yeah CSX, if you're able to get those FBI standards,

(01:46:34):
that sounds like a great gun, especially where we talked
about thirty two for someone who might be recoil sensitive,
and me at my size, I'm larger than average. I
still I wouldn't I wouldn't turn away, turn this away.
I remember seeing I think it was HSTS in thirty
Super Carry, and I bought a couple boxes, thinking, Okay,

(01:46:57):
at some point there's going to be a gun, there
will be a gun that I will want in this caliber.
And it's just kind of fizzled, and it's kind of sad.

Speaker 2 (01:47:07):
Not sure why it feels. Have you heard why white Field?
I've never shot one, never had one, oh me neither
me neither. But I think it's just the limitations. Because
the CSX came out in nine and they were promising
it to be in thirty Super Carry and to me,
that would be the That would be a that would
be a great combination.

Speaker 1 (01:47:22):
Same with the the six, three sixty five, three sixty
five and thirty super Carry. That's that would be like
a magic or an unending magazine. There would be it
would be carrying pick. It would be like a Yeah,
unreal how many rounds you could carry. But it would
be also easy to shoot, assuming how many streaching.

Speaker 2 (01:47:43):
Respects, how many firearms companies. So I haven't tracked. I'm
not a thirty supercurer. I never thought a second.

Speaker 1 (01:47:50):
Initially, I thought there were only like three. I thought
it was like three three. Was it like Nighthawk, Kimber
and Smith or something like that. Oh, and maybe someone
in chat can can correct that.

Speaker 2 (01:48:03):
Everybody was sitting on the sidelines waiting for everybody else
to jump in the pool before they did. Yeah, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:48:08):
There was a shield available in super Carry, but I'm
not sure. I still think. I still think, yeah, this
has potential. The only problem is you have availability. Yeah,
that's not a problem. And then the weapons that would
be compatible.

Speaker 2 (01:48:22):
Well, you look at thirty two. Now Federal finally jumped
in the thirty two magnum with her some animal coming
out finally took him a year. They were going to
sit by. I mean he had Smith and Wesson, and
obviously Lipsey's going all out, you know, putting all their
chips on the table and hoping this thing would go.
But I think you had the right people behind it,

(01:48:45):
pushing it, advertisement promoting it, et cetera. And then you
had the right people discussing the ballistics of the thirty
two that made sense, that actually had some knowledge of
it coledge of ballistics versus you know, the guy that
you know shoots the watermelons. And so I think the

(01:49:07):
thirty two went off and the thirty probably didn't have that.
I guess. I don't know. I never followed it.

Speaker 1 (01:49:13):
Yeah, it was. It was interesting. And so right now
I'm on the Smith website seeing if I can find
Oh wow, yeah, they don't even have well maybe they do.
Oh that's why it doesn't show. So they currently have
four pistols available and they're all that makes sense. Okay,

(01:49:35):
So they're shields, the Shield Plus or the Shield Easy. Okay,
so Shield Easy. I owned one and I think it
was in three eighty. It was a fun gun. It
was super easy to manipulate. Thirty super Cary that just
that would make sense super supercar with or without the
thumb safety covering some bases. Unfortunately, the AMO just hasn't

(01:50:00):
taken off.

Speaker 2 (01:50:01):
I picked up one of the shield easis. Sometimes I
get people on my range older don't have the dexterity anymore,
and the easy which I never really looked at the
Easy over till I got one. There's actually an actual
hammer inside that thing. I mean it's not it's not
striker fired. It's an actual hammer inside it is. I thought,

(01:50:21):
that's interesting designs. Yeah, yeah, but it's if you have
dexterity problems because you're older. But some people have injuries
the or hand, little arthriaties coming on a little early whatever,
it makes sense, Oh my gosh, if it makes sense. Yeah,
I've had a lot of people and I pulled out
bring it out to them and going here, try this,
and so I need to get one. I said, yeah,

(01:50:42):
you do if you're gonna run one of these things.
And that's another thing with people to understand with the
AMMO is. Auto pistols are are AMO driven. AMMO drives
the operation of the auto pistol. You know, you can
have with a revolver where you can have a bad grip,
bad everything, and then round is still going to go off.

(01:51:04):
You can you can nose that. You can nose that
muzzle and drive it into somebody and the round is
still going to go off. Can't do that with auto.
So auto, the AMMO has to be a certain up
to a certain spec for pressure to operate whatever it's
intended to operate. And so I get some guys that say, hey,

(01:51:25):
I've got a Thompson. You know where you're forty five
operated Thompson. I'm going I don't know. I never tested it.
So also I said, here, I'm going to send you
some samples and tell me what it does, you know.
And so if you've got something that's odd like that,
I said, I don't know, problem, I'll send you some samples.
See if it runs it. I've got no idea. I've
had some really odd stuff. This one guy had this

(01:51:46):
this gun. It was kind of resembled at Thompson, but
it was like a suitcase. Thing was in parts and
pieces and you clip it together. I can't remember the
name of this thing and didn't I So I don't
know if I'll run it. But here I'm going to
send you some AMMO, test it, tell me if it
runs it or not. And then the same thing with
like I run I make sub Sonic one nine. You know,

(01:52:08):
will it will it run? Will it funk? I said,
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how
your gun is sprung. I don't know. I know that
what I ran it in suppressed, you know, out of
my out of my m MP, it ran it. So
I don't know if it's going to run out of
your biretta or whatever else you got suppressed. So I'll
send you some rounds here here, tell me what it

(01:52:28):
does if I need to poop it up a little bit.
But they'll still say stubsnic and it'll still run. More
guns out there a wide variety. That's one thing is
I don't have a big wide variety of guns, like
like Matt's got there behind them. I don't. I don't
have that. So my test s, Yeah, my test bid
is pretty narrow. I mean I can borrow guns from
people to do certain things, but again, the test bid

(01:52:52):
is is pretty narrow. I'm not again being small potatoes
here or tater tots what I call it. I don't
have the wide variety of test beds. All right, So
if you've got something not sure, let me know. I'll
send you something. But I want feedback, you know, I
want feedback. I you know, I don't want to send
you am one not hear from you again. It's not
going to help me out to make a better product.

(01:53:13):
And that's what I'm trying to do is just make
a solid product at a good price. And I'm not
here to be a Federal or a Winchester Amal Company
or Spear whatever it's now. At this point, I'm making
niche rounds that used to be made that aren't being
made anymore. And like the you know, the Model fifty

(01:53:35):
at the forty one magnum load, the police load, that's
you know. And then I ran into Bruce cart Right.
I don't know if you ever know who Bruce krt
Right is retired FBI used to he was down at
revolver round up and he did a seminar on the
guns of the FBI, the revolvers and stuff like that,
and he got a hold of me about the FBI load,

(01:53:56):
which was I think it was one hundred and forty
grain and three fifty seven, which is a very obscure
load that very few. You know, it's not out there
much until you research it. And I said to here,
try these there's my one fifty eight, said Darryl. You
know Darryl, And I did, and he gave him to
Ken Hackathorne and they're going, don't make the one forty.

(01:54:19):
This is a great load. Stop don't, don't, don't do
the excite. And then Chuck Haggard wants me to do
a load with him based on a one. He's supposed
to send me some bullets that he wants me to
to load for him to do some testing. He wants
to he wants to try a one forty load in
a three fifty seven. And so we're we're going to
work on that. I mean, I have a problem. I can.

(01:54:40):
I'm still small enough where I can do this stuff
for people, and I I love load development. It takes
some time. Luckily, I've got some great people here. I
got two employees. Eric, he's uh as a retired marine.
He's younger and I but did a few tours over

(01:55:02):
in the box and he loads for me and packs.
And I've got Ashley, she's uh. Does my If you
ever call and talk on the phone's probably gonna talk
to her. She does my website, keeps the website up
and does all the orders and does some packing as well. Me,
I'm busy with the low development loading so and then

(01:55:22):
talking to my vendors and other people, you know whatever,
developing stuff for people. So that's that's kind of Dealer's
just three of us and they just work part time.

Speaker 1 (01:55:36):
So we had a good discussion about overall round performance
and what bullets do. Why don't we talk just briefly
or if it could go for her for three hours
if you want machine solids, because I know there's been
a huge push there have been some manufacturers, some reputable manufacturers,

(01:55:59):
pumping out some machine solids, especially when I'm talking pistol,
I'm not talking rifle, And there's some interesting claims that
go with them. Based on my research, based on what
I've seen, based on comparing notes with friends, there's a
place for them. But I have yet to see any
machine solid in a duty or sub caliber around outperform

(01:56:23):
what the gold standard is, the gold standard being like
an HSD.

Speaker 2 (01:56:27):
As far as I will give you, I will, I
will give you the Doc Roberts response, they poke holes.
I do ah my firearms business, I do a vehicle class,
and a lot of it is just shooting vehicles. What
bullets doing vehicles because a lot of you know, a

(01:56:48):
lot of people have you know, they don't have the
opportunity to shoot a vehicle. You know, tickles the hell
out they can, you know, shoot a car. And I've
got a local guy here that gets junk vehicles and
he hauls them out and I'll shoot this not out
of him and he brings me, he'll trade him in.
He'll junk that one, and I'll bring another one out
and I'll errate that one. But if you want to
penetrate a car, those those are the bullets to use,

(01:57:10):
you know, the the lehighs or whatever, you know, the solids.
There's a lot of mechanism in a door people, you know,
the standard Holow points aren't going to penetrate a door.
We were shooting this last year. We were shooting I
think it was a late nineties thirty two thousand Chevy
Tahoe and automatic door windows whatever, and the general Holow

(01:57:35):
points for not penetrating a door nine millimeters forty caliber.
They might depending on again, the door, because you've got
not only the frame that you have, the the supports
in the door. Then you got the window mechanism, the
electric motors in there, the lock mechanisms in there, A
lot of different things you may or may not hit.

(01:57:58):
But what's been uh, pretty well consistent are those solid bullets.
They will you know, they'll they'll penetrate the door for
the most part. But you know, other than that, I
go back to dock with they'll poke holes.

Speaker 1 (01:58:14):
Ookohol, there's no there's no magical additional wounding because it's
this hydraulic whatever. Yeah, there's still cells. It's not just
loose water that we're made of.

Speaker 2 (01:58:26):
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, So I go back to the
the No, I just lost my train of thought. You
had it right there, Matt too.

Speaker 1 (01:58:37):
We're not made of just water that there are cells
of dividing everything up and structures. THEA itself isn't right.

Speaker 2 (01:58:45):
Yeah, you go back to the autopsy's a medical examiner.
When they can't tell the wound channel difference between a
nine and a forty five, you know, I'm just going, yeah,
this stuff is overrated. I mean, I I have to
go back and rere Marshall and Snow's thing. But listen
to the you know reading that you know I have
to go back and refresh myself on that one. But

(01:59:07):
you know, other stuff on the internet about all these
bullets supposedly you know, temporary wound cavity and blah blah blah.
I hate to say this because a few people have
done this, but you know, you haven't been an autopsy,
and it really shows people, It really shows.

Speaker 1 (01:59:24):
Okay, So one of my favorites is, yeah, repeat that
first word that you just said. Temporary. Yeah, we don't
care about temporary.

Speaker 2 (01:59:32):
You don't care about temporary. It's just something that it
just moves out of the way and it goes back
into place. It's you know, the pistol bullets don't have
the power to do all this stuff, so you know,
and then looking down the wound channel, it's like, you know, hey, doc,
tell me what caliber that is?

Speaker 1 (01:59:49):
Own rule.

Speaker 2 (01:59:51):
I ain't gonna know till I find the bullet. I'm
just going duly noted, duly noted. You know, tell me,
is this thing is this thing and expanded? Is this
thing expanded yet? Or are we still on pre expansion
on the bullet? He goes Well, a lot of that
times you can kind of tell, like I said that
one deal was The real eye opener for me is

(02:00:13):
when it got probably seven eights of the way through
the heart before you can start seeing some tearing, and
it's like, okay, that's about the time that bullet started
finally opening up, and we're not seeing that, you know,
your first x inches whatever. And I defy that because
I had a discussion with Giles Stock about that and

(02:00:33):
the guys from Hornby. It'say, oh no, as soon as
that thing enters a jail block, he's going to expand.
I'm going that's not what I'm seeing in humans. That's
not what i'm seeing in humans. I'm seeing penetration in
quite a ways before I'm seeing that expansion. It's not
expanding as soon as that thing hits a human. So
I'm gonna I'm going to disagree with you up one

(02:00:56):
side and down the other till the cows come home.
That's not what I'm seeing. Now. Again, I'm pretty limited
on what I saw, but what I did see, I
did not see that that as soon as it enters
well I did. Excuse me, I back up. The cheaper
Holow points didn't get the expansion because they acted like
a parachute and they just stopped and it's like, well,
this is a crap bullet, and the doc kills sarcastically

(02:01:19):
has it as four steps, turns around and go, okay,
big guy, what bullet is this? I'm going it's a
crap bullet. That's all I can tell you. It's this
garbage bullet. Well, who makes it? I don't know. I
would like to know to make sure I stay away
from that thing. But I said, I have no idea
who makes that. It's probably one of those generic Holow
points like every bullet company makes, you know, like Federal

(02:01:41):
makes their HST which is their their gold standard, their
gold dot, or they make like a you know, a
lower end just a plain Jane Holow point, which you
know those things, I mean better than nothing. I don't know.
If you put your bullet place went where it needs
to go, it probably will do it is it cannexp
and not reliably. But one thing I did find I

(02:02:04):
was using for a while was when I first started,
when I first started this company up five years ago.
It's been that long ago. Yeah, We're I grown our
six year now, so real quick. I got out of
law enforcement. Before I got out of law enforcement, retired.
There's a local company not too far from me that

(02:02:27):
started up a company. I said back about twelve or thirteen,
and they put a deal on the local firearms form.
This is how I got into the loading business, you know,
industry wise, and I got ahold of them. They put
on they're going to start this business and they can
provide AM or whatever. So I was still a law
enforcement I got a hold and I said, hey, can
you provide because I wanted to, you know, I want

(02:02:48):
to support the mom and pop people, the small people,
and can you support you know, I was only working
for a small department then eight people before I retired,
and so I met the Manchester AMI was good whatever,
and then they invited me down look at through operation.
They were going to MLAD machines and then I started
helping out with them. And then when they I would

(02:03:10):
tell them I was going to retire soon whatever, and
they said, when you retire. Because those guys both were
HVAC guys, they had other jobs. This was just kind
of their side business, we want you to run our
business for us, and so I did so I retired
in fifteen. I ran their their business for about three
or four years, and then I moved farther east, and
I said, I'm not going to commute that far, and
they said, well, we're thinking about, you know, giving it

(02:03:31):
up anyway. So that's how I got in the industry.
So when I got into making started at High Desert,
I already had all the vendor contacts, all the places
to go for the powder and the bullets and everything.
And I knew all these people because I talked them
and ordered for you know, for years, So it was
seamless getting into it. So going into that, I already

(02:03:59):
had the knowledge of a lot of that stuff. Starting
this business and then backing it up with the stuff
I've been seeing, was able to immediately tailor make a
lot of the stuff. And then the help with the
newer technology coming out, and then some of these other people,
it's like, you know, I don't If I know it,

(02:04:20):
I'll do it. If I don't lean onto my own
own understanding. I if it's not something I know, I'm
the first to raise my hand, going I don't know,
but I'm going to find out. And so that's that's philosophy.
I keep and keep going with it. And but I

(02:04:42):
think that's where we're at. Where we're at now, I
got off on a tangent.

Speaker 1 (02:04:45):
There, No, this is this is great. I think there's
definitely a takeaway also from this discussion, where, especially when
you're running a revolver, so many of us grew up
on blocks. We were spoiled by glocks. Glock is plug
and play. It's you get it, you throw whatever in.

(02:05:06):
You're fine.

Speaker 2 (02:05:08):
But you so.

Speaker 1 (02:05:12):
The seacamp above me. There are specific types of AMMO
that the manufacturer says, Yeah, you're only going to be
running these. Sorry, buddy, you can't just be running everything.

Speaker 3 (02:05:22):
Uh, there are there are parameters that if you're if
you're leaving glock, if you're leaving some mainstream, lowest connection
and it's not a bad thing, lowest common denominator solution,
and that can be a Walther, and that can be
a Smith.

Speaker 1 (02:05:37):
And even HK. When you leave that, you go into
something that might be a little there might be some
additional factors. It's like you mentioned with the revolvers, there
might need to be some testing with whatever AMMO you
choose to carry defensively, and it needs that's what your
mission is.

Speaker 2 (02:05:54):
Yeah, so we get I mean once I remember one
of the things you wanted to touch on was was
bullet selection and just equipment. It's it's mission specific. When
I first started High Desert, it was pretty much just training, AMMO.
I went with the three bread and butter calibers nine
millimeters forty five auto and two twenty three running all
full metal jacket stuff TMJ's, and it was just basic training, AMMO.

(02:06:18):
So then with the nine we added there two different
you know, we started with one fifteen, so we added
one twenty four's. People started asking for one twenty fours
and they may wanted subsonic, so I started doing that
and then added hollow points and so mission specific. I
think we've touched You've touched on several in your podcast,

(02:06:40):
and I've touched on with people I would not recommend.
I know, Colonel Cooper, they all fall to hardball, But
I don't recommend tmjfmj's for duty carry, you know, or
just you know, defensive carry. I just I just there's
better options out there that do the job better. And
I recommend a good, solid, constructed hallow point in any caliber.

(02:07:05):
But you know, there's a lot of stuff out there
that I haven't kept up on. My heads been buried
the last five years, you know, doing my stuff here
and producing AMMO and doing research in low development. I
remember going to a a ballistic seminar early two thousands
for Hornity and the guy had that two twenty three

(02:07:26):
tap stuff. I felt really bad for you. And that
stuff failed so bad in Joe Block. Oh my gosh,
it was horrid. It's like, well, no one's going to
be carrying that stuff, you know, as I didn't. It's like, man,
that's bad. And then one of the few odd ball
ones was won by Winchester and they had the old
sext and they had early two thousands major lead jacket

(02:07:50):
separation with those things, and a good, a good story
on that one was I had a friend of mine,
he was up there in the Puget Sound area working
for a sheriff's obviously slat guy. See, he had a
UC car, the old dum Ford Crown vis gets in
his car his wintertime, it's cold. He gets in the car,
starts it up, forget something in the house, goes back

(02:08:12):
in the house, comes back out. Someone's jumped in this
car now backing out of his driveway. But he's got
all a swat gear, including a full auto MP five.
That car ain't going anywhere it's good guy. Anyways, the
guy starts backing out of there. He puts around to
the windshield. He's got it. It's forty five auto, he's
got his nineteen eleven on him. Running the Winchester SXT

(02:08:34):
centner punches the guy to the windshield. The guy back
you know, goes across, doesn't stop and yping the guys
you know across the street into somebody else's yard. The
car ends up in over someone's mailbox. It's high center
or whatever, and the fight is on in the neighbor's driveway.
The guy is still alive, right, so they finally gets

(02:08:55):
some subdued whatever. So what happened is they when they
do the investigation, they found the jacket of the SXT
sitting right on the dashboard and the lead got him
right in the sternum but didn't penetrate anything. It just
it slowed down.

Speaker 1 (02:09:09):
So it's just like Liberty rounds all of the jet,
not the jacket. Well, practically the jacket separates and then
you have the single little.

Speaker 2 (02:09:19):
Yeah. Yeah, but it's funny. I thought, now that's kind
of I mean separation. Okay, I'm with you on that one,
but I would think there'd still be enough poop with
that lead, would pant would have penetrated the sternum. No,
it it got into the sternum. It got on the
back side of it, on the on the on the
you know, on the thoracic side of the of the sternum.
But it didn't go any farther than that. And so

(02:09:41):
the fight was on. So now you've got someone who
is determined. Now most people might have a psychological stop
on that one, going, oh my gosh, right, I take
the air out. I means he got center punched. No,
the fight was on in this guy's front yard. You know.
It's full on brawl, and the guy's center punch bleeding.
Of course it's not arterial or any type of bleeding.
It's just you know, superficial stuff. But he's still bleeding,

(02:10:02):
and the fights on. You finally gets some subdued. But
that's one of those things where you know, the ammal
testing and stuff really needs to be done. I've learned
over the years. I don't take amimal companies because they're
trying to sell a product. They're trying to market a product,

(02:10:24):
you know, And I'm not knocking any one amimal company
over another I'm sure Horridy obviously is up there tap
stuff quite a bit, I would think, I would hope.
I'm sure SX Teeth are still making it. I don't know.
I'm not up on it. Are they still making sxts?
Are just ranger tees?

Speaker 1 (02:10:39):
Oh that's a good question.

Speaker 2 (02:10:40):
I don't know, been long long so I've been in
the Rochester side of the things. But they had a
bad wrap. Range of ties were pretty much just a
black talent with a different color. It didn't have a
black on them.

Speaker 1 (02:10:51):
And one less claw, one class claw.

Speaker 2 (02:10:54):
There you go. And but I don't take the it's
a market, you know, the old marketing employ you know,
market an item in such a way that you think
you can't live without it. Then going for the monetary
kill and that's liberty and some of this other snake
oil type bullets and stuff. And I you know, I
sometimes on the Facebook pages and I'm going to I

(02:11:16):
just bite my tongue and just scroll on by. And
it's like it doesn't matter what I say. People are
just like, oh, no, this is the this is the bomb,
this is the whatever.

Speaker 1 (02:11:25):
Sure it is you enjoy that?

Speaker 2 (02:11:29):
Nope. I mean it's like, you know, I mean, I don't.
I don't have it in me. When people ask me,
you know about ammal selection, Well, obviously you're going to,
you know, recommend your stuff, I said, well, depending on
what the mission. I said, not all my stuff is
mission related to what you're doing. I don't make a
short barrel of stuff like the old gold dot. I said.
If that's available, get that stuff. I said, that's the

(02:11:50):
gold standard for a short barrel, thirty eight plus p.
If you can't get it, I guarantee my stuff's going
to work really, really well because it's been tested. Well,
I know it's been jail plocked out. I'm not pulling
anybody out of a body, But like I go back
to the ten percent jail block, if it's going to
produce in that, it's pretty close to one I've seen
taken out of people. And it's like it's producing at
this velocity which is not supposed to happen, but it's happening.

Speaker 1 (02:12:15):
Well, that reminds that reminds me of advice from my
buddy Lane Kritzer. And this was I don't remember how
many years ago. He basically said something along the lines
of uh. And this was this was mostly focused on
police departments for an agency agency level advice, but it
absolutely absolutely applies to the everyday responsible citizen concerned about

(02:12:40):
their their safety and their protection. And it's yeah, have
your have your a number one standard for your carry,
but you also need to have a backup. Oh yeah,
because there are there's a possibility that one magic round
might be sold out, and so you can't completely bet
on that always being available or affordable or anything. Have

(02:13:03):
a backup in mind, and start, if you haven't already,
start looking, start looking at what your potential backups are
to whatever this magic is. And it's not about I
did to maybe have someone on hand.

Speaker 2 (02:13:16):
I don't have. I don't have it in me to
give people bad advice. I mean, if someone's making a
product that is better than what I'm doing, I'm going,
you know, like that short barreled revolver. You might you
might get on there and going, you know, I'll tell
you what a better product is based on what your

(02:13:38):
mission is. It's like, okay, now you need something like this,
the better you know. It's like my fit, you know,
my my two twenty three. A lot of guys are
running seventy seven grain, my open tip mats. You know,
my high my long range stuff, and they've been dumping
coyotes with it. That open tip match isn't made for that,
but it's it's opening up, it's making a nice it's
it's doing its job. It's not designed for that, but

(02:13:59):
it's working. But there's better options out there like Vmax
and different ballistic tips type stuff performance And I'll say
it works, but you know, here's something you might want
to look at. You know, I'll sell it to you,
no problem, but you know I'm it's not that way
because you're a forum thread stopper. Okay, So there's my

(02:14:22):
this is this is one of my instructors, so this
is this is my this is my Firearms Training Company
service training group. So there's three of us, the three
headed dog, right. So I'm a thread stopper because I'll
go on there and I try to be diplomatic about it,
you know, but I'm saying this is what you're going
to see, bubbah, and I kind of hit them hard

(02:14:43):
with it, but I try to be diplomatic as possible,
and generally, like in a forum, they'll have this discussion
about whatever it is and I'll come in and going, okay,
this is what you're gonna see blah blah blah blah blah.
You can run it at this whatever. And then because
you can tell, it's like no one's been there and
you can you know, and it shows, and there's that
there's that saying again, and I was like, Okay, I

(02:15:07):
I try to. I try to be as humble as possible,
because I know these people don't know me. They don't
I'm just a keyboard command like anybody else behind a name.
I understand that, So I try to be I back
it up with a lot of different facts and here's
the deal. But of course they don't. They can't back it,
you know, they can't test my facts any But I
try to. I've been I've been blessed with having worked

(02:15:33):
in an extremely rural county sheriff's office, in a rural
law enforcement to have the opportunity to meet Doc Roberts
in person, meet all these patriarchs of the combat shooting
world through our instructor Association and learn from them, and

(02:15:56):
then teach at the academy for three years and then
do this investigation with the autopsy. And I also worked
at our state crime Lab doing some training with them.
When I was doing crime scene reconstruction and stuff. And
then I was also on a team that hunted down
do the marijuana thing with the big plantations. I was

(02:16:17):
on a team for that for three three summers. Eastern
Washington gets huge plantations of the mary. I meant in
marijuana is legalized, but not in like half a million
plants on public landed to see. You know, that's cartel
type stuff. And so I've been blessed to be able
to have an opportunity to do a lot of different things.

(02:16:38):
I didn't sit around on my thumb waiting for it
to come to me if there's a crack in the door.
I was through that door threshold, going hey, I'm here man.
I want to do this kind of stuff. And so
I hope I can bring enough to the table in
my business here to be able to help people out going.

(02:16:58):
Here's kind of what works, and here there is not
what works. And I wish people would listen to like
Doc Roberts and some of the people you bring on
these are the these are the industry people that need to
be listened to and not poo pooed. And that's like
I said I on one gun form I posted yet
that link to them when Doc was here on there

(02:17:19):
just a lot, and some people are making fun of it.
And as that's going, you know, not what you're saying, people,
you have no flip and clue. You know, why do
I bother? I shouldn't bother. It's like I got better
things that do you know? I don't need to be
taking high blood pressure pills from you people.

Speaker 1 (02:17:34):
Exactly exactly, but.

Speaker 2 (02:17:39):
It's you know, it's been a good run. Go ahead.

Speaker 1 (02:17:42):
Yeah, So with all that in mind, obviously, the title
of the episode says high Desert Cartridge Company. That's who
you are? Where can people find you? Hidesert cartridge dot com.
Also on Instagram. I'm not sure how they set up
Hi sat Hi dot Desert dot Cartridge or underscore or whatever.

(02:18:05):
It's some type stuff. It's something like that. I'm not
a big computer person. I was not raising that obviously era,
but I mumble through it. Luckily, I've got a great
person in Ashley who can and another gut friend, Luke,
who did my website. And it's like, you know, Steve,
where you like this. It's like, make M will get paycheck? Okay,

(02:18:29):
how about with this, make M will get paycheck? You know,
this is why I have you people, you know, and
so I'm not I don't mean people.

Speaker 2 (02:18:40):
Yeah, I don't have that kind of pride in me.
That's like, if it's out of my wheelhouse, out of
my lane, I'm going to be the first to raise
my hand and going Nope, that's not you know, this
is a better person to talk to. So it's like
when you know the revolver stuff, you know you need
to be like American Fighting revolver. You know, it's five
bucks a month, a lot of history, a lot of

(02:19:00):
technical stuff and maintenance stuff on your revolvers that I
kind of joke with dB and why on it. It's like,
you know, five bucks is a cheap date, but it's
a very good quality cheap date. You guys might want
to pay attention to this. That's why I give Darrell
the EF Hutton Award. It's like he's the only guy
I know of who I can develop a load for

(02:19:23):
and he does it by feel, and he's dead nuts
on where it needs to be for the defensive load
that matches it. It's like this guy's got one uncanny
arthritic hands like I'd never seen before.

Speaker 1 (02:19:35):
When he speaks, yeah, listen and That's.

Speaker 2 (02:19:39):
What I've been blessed with, Like people like you and
Chuck and Darryl all these other people who have been there,
done all these different types of they got a life
story and they've got a story to tell, and they've
got just like you know, a piece of the pie
or the piece of the elephant. I've only seen a
piece of the elephant, and these guys have seen other
pieces of the elephant, and together within you know, eight
ten people ever, we put the elephant together and now

(02:20:03):
we can look at it going this is what I
see it now, but it's back. Yeah, I think we
hit everything you want me to.

Speaker 1 (02:20:15):
I agree, I agree, and uh yeah, I think what
I will do now is my wrap up stuff. So
as for the norm excellent discussion. Uh, again, there was
the possibility we made we could have had a couple
of people come in. It wound up being a one

(02:20:35):
on one. Now still we're just perfectly fine.

Speaker 2 (02:20:39):
Yeah, you talked about topics. Yeah, one of the things
you mentioned was like bullet selection, And the first thing
I popped up was, like, Chuck Haggard, there's somebody that
just has Encyclopedia ballistics in his head. If anybody can
just you say a caliber and whatever your mission state,
He'll come, Okay, you want this bullet And.

Speaker 1 (02:20:57):
Because he's actively constantly tested these and he goes does
these classes and he's okay, what do you got, Okay,
get me a couple of rounds.

Speaker 2 (02:21:05):
That's the kind of people I prefer to run with.
Are those who are always looking, searching, bettering themselves and
not have been there, done that and relasting and resting
on those laurels. You're continually moving forward, looking whatever. And
those people inspire me. And like I said, you know,

(02:21:27):
when Darryl trolls me about the thirty two Magnum project,
you know that, and it's like there's a whole new world.
I've never even explored thirty two whatsoever.

Speaker 1 (02:21:37):
And not only that though, but it's turned into a
very productive and it's been useful and you benefited from
it because you have a better idea of what thirty
two is about.

Speaker 2 (02:21:48):
I did. Yeah, it brought up the whole thing doing
the jail testing and the blast and the recause, like
where have I gone wrong on this thing? Where have
I missed this at? You know?

Speaker 1 (02:21:57):
Oh yeah, yeah, And a lot of people have. And
fortunately because of those types of guys. They've been a
good example. And if you're not already listening to them,
if you're not already subscribed, I'm subscribed. I don't necessarily
always I'm not always accessing everything they have, but now
because I'm a subscriber, I have full access to their
entire catalog. And also by being a supporter, this is

(02:22:22):
helping ensure that it may it continues because this is
a resource that you know, what, if there's no support,
it might not be there.

Speaker 2 (02:22:30):
So that's one thing is that it's it's just it's
like a fire hose of information. I mean, I'm busy
here loading and doing stuff, and I got a family
life and whatever. I can't be you know, on the
computer all the time, and so a lot of things
get by me. Hey have you seen the latest on whatever?
I said? No, sorry, man, I missed that. I was,
you know, So I try to keep up on what
I do. It's kind of like when I'm training and

(02:22:53):
stuff or a piece I need a piece of equipment
I have, I have something I need to solve, a
problem need to solve, like amount for a light or whatever.
And I've got a lot of people in the industry
like yourself, or blowers or somebody going, hey, I'm this
is a problem I'm having. What do you expect to say, Oh,
go look at this. I solve my problem. Great, and
I'm off running again. I don't pay attention to the

(02:23:14):
the industry too much. I mean I do that for
the AMMO side of things. Obviously I got to keep
up on some of those things.

Speaker 1 (02:23:19):
But networking is a thing.

Speaker 2 (02:23:23):
It is, you know, going to I went down to Shot.
Not my biggest thing was Shot. It's like going by,
you know, looking for a car when you've got no money. Well,
all this stuff and all the it's like good for retailers,
but I don't have that kind of money to be
looking all that kind of stuff. It's like. But it
was cool to be invited to the Smith and Wesson

(02:23:45):
kickoff dinner. That was that was really cool to be
me to be invited to that meeting Jerry Michelik and
the CEO of Smith and Wesson, and Jason Klosner from
Lipsey's and actually, you know, behind the scenes doing stuff
for that UC gun not knowing that you know, Jason's
keeping an eye on this type of stuff was pretty cool.

(02:24:08):
And then to me, I was only there for two
days Tuesday and Wednesday. But I always with meetings and
meeting with my vendors and stuff like that, and so yeah,
I mean I try to keep prices down. I'm not
the biggest obviously I can't. I don't have the biggest
buying volume that you know, these bigger companies have, and

(02:24:29):
so that's that drives prices. I've benunst a lot of people.
There's eleven percent tax federally on AMAL that goes toward conservation,
a lot of overhead. I do have an account through
Hodgden Powder, so I can get my powder right from them,
but I have to buy a thousand pounds at a time,
and that requires an explosives truck to deliver the stuff,

(02:24:52):
and that's not cheap, and so there is quite a
bit of overhead to the biz. And these machines here
are not cheap. I got six of them plus a processor.
And I try to keep prices down, but people need
to understand the buying path. I can't. I don't have
the volume that everybody else has, and so they can

(02:25:13):
they can buy cheaper because they can buy you know,
larger volumes of stuff. But like I said, I'm small
enough I want to stay that way so I can
help people develop loads like like Darryl and working with
Chuck and then helping people out another quick stories during COVID,
I get this call from Southside Chicago swat. I said, hey,

(02:25:34):
I heard you guys got amoy out there. I'm going.
I thought it was a joke. I really did. It's like, okay,
leave me a number and I'll get back to you.
You're right, I thought, I really did. I thought someone
was playing a joke on me. So I waited about
a half an hour, get on the net and search it,
and dang if it wasn't the phone number for Chicago's
Please Apartment coming through there and it's like, oh my gosh.

(02:25:57):
So I call them back. I said, okay, I got
more time to you now, you know. And they couldn't
find AMMO. And I shipped him a pallet to AMMO
and I said, I how did you hear about me? Oh,
Bill Blowers? I said, oh, okay, all right, all right, now
all makes sense, Okay, I'm with you. So I shipped
him a Palada nine and a pal Of two twenty three.
So I couldn't get it. I mean, I'm I'm here guys,

(02:26:20):
if you know, if you need me for something, I
don't care if you use me and abuse me, whatever,
you don't ever talk to me again. It's like whatever,
But if I can help you out, well, I.

Speaker 1 (02:26:28):
Just reached out to a buddy, Dave Bowler. I don't
know if you know Dave works for Smith. I just asked,
are you familiar with how test Cartridge? Just continuing as
a matter of fact, that Dave was the one who,
man this was early two thousands, basically showed me the
importance of networking and I.

Speaker 2 (02:26:47):
I got introduced to several of people at that Smith
and Wesson dinner. If he was there, I may have it's.

Speaker 1 (02:26:53):
Like the I think he's over a he's law enforcement
rep over Western States or something like that. Oh, it
might even be higher by now.

Speaker 2 (02:27:02):
I didn't don't think I think was there. I think
it was mainly from the actual you know, offices of
Smith and Wesson were there, but they didn't know where
the animal was coming. For their ambassadors. Yeah, Travis and
Chad when they're when they're testing, you know, when they're
making videos of their new stuff coming out and they're
using my Ammo and that, you know, that was great

(02:27:24):
I was able to face to face and handshake and
talk with him a bit about what I do. So
it's getting out there. It's helping.

Speaker 1 (02:27:34):
Do you do a thirty two a CP?

Speaker 2 (02:27:36):
No, it's no, I had not yet. I got a
couple of different things. People asking about ten millimeter I
did ten minis No, it wasn't. It was actually just
public ten milimeter. It's like, yeah, I did a batchel
of five thousand like it four years ago and it
sat on the shelf and gathered dust. It took me
three years to get rid of it. So it's probably
not high on my on my list of doing things.

(02:27:57):
That's your thing is that the thing is about, you know,
supplying to man. I'm sure that's why Federal sat on
the sidelines for a year thinking where's this thirty two
magnum going to go? Before they jumped in the pool
with it. And so it's the same thing I've got
to do. It's like, you got to understand that if
I don't have the tooling for one of these machines,
I got to upfront and then retool it and then
buy all the components for it, and then I got

(02:28:19):
to make sure I sell it, you know, I got
to pay. It's got to pay for itself, and so
I got to, you know, five ten thousand. When I
make a batch of AMMO for anything like forty one Magnuma,
it'll be a batch of ten thousand rounds.

Speaker 1 (02:28:31):
And the reason I asked about thirty two specifically is
we had a discussion year or two ago about thirty two,
defensively thirty two ACP and how it was cracking specific
burrettas because the specs in Europe were higher or lower.
I don't recall which, but I was just thinking, oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:28:51):
I've been approached. That's to be The next one is
thirty two thirty two Auto possibly, it's got some the
specs are not bad on it, and it's fun. It's respectable.

Speaker 1 (02:29:07):
Talking so much fun, as is the nineteen oh three,
and I have one.

Speaker 2 (02:29:10):
But it's not that I'm really I'm wanting to find
a nineteen oh three and thirty two. I think that'd
be a hoot to just to carry one of those.
In fact, I got a nostalogic. In the last year
before I retired, I carried a cult original Cult nineteen
I want say, nineteen thirty four and thirty eight Super
My last year on duty, you know, in the course

(02:29:32):
of chiefs going what are you carrying that for? I said,
because I'm the fire, because I'm the fire on this
program manager, and you told me I can't carry. Well,
so that's one carrying until I finally retire out here.
But thirty two has got respectable it's got respectable stuff.
And I'm thinking, you know, it'd be a hoot to
carry a thirty two auto. I don't think it's again,
you wouldn't be hindering yourself that much ballistically on the

(02:29:57):
if it's loaded.

Speaker 1 (02:29:58):
Right, And the uh Walter has the new PPK in
thirty two. They were in thirty eight, three eighties, they
now come in thirty two and they and they revamped
the bread of comcats where there are a bunch of
different variants where I kind of want to get one
because I realize it's fun.

Speaker 2 (02:30:19):
Is there much AMO out there available for him?

Speaker 1 (02:30:22):
Yeah? Online?

Speaker 2 (02:30:24):
Oh probably not what you said that. It's like, okay,
that just tells me anything right there, Well, if you look, you.

Speaker 1 (02:30:30):
Can find it, but it's not that it might not
necessarily be what you're looking for. And it falls perfectly
in line what we've been talking about where yeah, I
don't know what the velocity is going to be, or
I don't know what the pressures are going to be,
and I don't want to crack my gun. And if
all I can find is some serbian whatever, thirty two,
am I going to be confident in that? And also

(02:30:52):
when it comes to like thirty two I remember talking
to I think it was also Haggard thirty two, three
eighty I probably most guns, I'm probably going to be
better off sticking with a full metal jacket because there's
insufficient phil lotophy.

Speaker 2 (02:31:06):
We have that expansion three eight especially, I found that
a couple of shootings that I attended three eighty HaLow
points you might as well done, they know, I don't know,
which is kind of odd. You'd think with all the
engineering and technology out there, someone could engineer a bullet

(02:31:26):
that would but I don't think they've spent much time
on If you look at what they're doing on the
bullet construction, it is just a plane Jain Hallow point.
It's almost just like, all right, we'll put one out here,
get the drill out. Let's drill out of an FM. Yeah. Yeah,
some of them bad because it's a Hollo point, right,
you know, it's a hall of it's got to be
able to you know, it's got to be good. It's

(02:31:47):
a hollow point. But yeah, I tell people IM going,
and I don't make three eighty. The bullet that small
is the height and width this is almost the same dimension.
And my bullet feeders can't turn them the right way.
They come all over which way direction they want to
go because it's the same direction diameter wise as it

(02:32:09):
is height wise, and they can't discriminate them. And so
I don't load three eighty. So I've got a company
out back east. I get them from Tennessee Cartridge, and
I get them from them, and it's like, good, you
make the stuff. You can have the heartache. I don't
want to deal with it. But it's all hundred grain
ful metal jacket. And said, you know, i'd have Holo points.
I'm going let me explain. I'm not trying to sell

(02:32:30):
you this, ammo, but I'm telling you that it doesn't work.
Holow points just they don't in that in that deal.
Why carry block it's even the twenty.

Speaker 1 (02:32:40):
Five Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they don't bother, don't bother.
I just have Oh I so I have a carried
Block forty two as my as a backup.

Speaker 2 (02:32:51):
Which is I've said I'm not a glock guy, so
what was three.

Speaker 1 (02:32:55):
So yep, just have full metal jackets in it. Yeah, yep,
because I'm not. That's yeah, that's that's that's the backup.
That's the Oh this is bad.

Speaker 2 (02:33:04):
I better. Yeah, that's the only time that I'll recommend
for Kerry use for for a full metal jacket. This
a little smaller calibers. Yeah, but thirty two and of
course thirty two has got the velocity. You got the
poop behind it, in the in the technology and the
bolt design. So they'll they'll do the job.

Speaker 1 (02:33:25):
At the what was it I I will be getting
because I have to the bodyguard to in three eighty?
I have to Yeah? Is that also three eighty and
depending and I think it's twelve rounds. That's double what
I got my little block. And it's almost the same
form factor and I work under my vest and yeah,

(02:33:48):
yeah that works. And three eighty's fun to shoot. I
enjoy three eighty. It is actually I like shooting everything though.
Look at my.

Speaker 2 (02:33:55):
Wall, I see that.

Speaker 1 (02:33:58):
Yeah, yep, Well, I'm going to know basically wrap up,
I'm gonna tell everyone thanks for watching, Thanks for listening, Steve,
thanks for the discussion. Always nice to have you on.
The next time we have Gary on Roberts, I'll have
to get I'll have to hold you in.

Speaker 2 (02:34:19):
Man, I would love to be on with him. That
was just you know, if I could have filmed that
at the instructor conference when he was there, Yes, it
was just no one was moving, yeah, no one was
going to the restroom, no one was you know. It
was Yeah. That good and it was it was hammering

(02:34:39):
right away with with what you know in the in
the very limited of what I had seen so far,
I got, like I said, only did four or five
or six of them, and spot on with everything he
was talking about what I was seeing.

Speaker 1 (02:34:51):
Yeah, it's like this guy is EF hutting extory and
there's there's a reason why. And he studied directly and
with Fackler. Yeah that's yeah. Awesome guy, awesome guy. Yeah,
I need to say I need to text him or
call him.

Speaker 2 (02:35:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:35:09):
Well, big thank you to you the viewer of the
listener and Steve at High Desert Cartridge. Big thank you
to the sponsors of the show, Lucky Gunner, Filster Walter,
and also our network supporters, whether you're on Patreon or
on the forum, thank you for your support. With that
in mind, if you like what we do, likes are

(02:35:29):
absolutely appreciated, shares are very much appreciated. If you haven't subscribed,
now's a good time. As a matter of fact, we've
been going on for two and a half hours now
and this honestly, this has been a very quick two hours.
But I actually, yeah, I anticipate on this to be
this was just going to be a nice discussion, and
absolutely it was. If if you if you haven't already

(02:35:55):
hit that like, but if you do like what we
what we're doing here this ispisode four hundred and nineteen,
that's on average two hours, that's a lot of hours
of listening. It's free for your use. There's some more
behind scenes stuff. If you want access, go to either Primary, Secondary,

(02:36:17):
dot com slash forum and hit that network support banner
and from there you can help support this whole network,
or go to Patreon, dot com, Slash Primary and Secondary. Essentially,
there are benefits, one of which is discord access. Discord
is awesome, great community. They're talking about all kinds of
stuff and it's NonStop and It's just basically a big

(02:36:38):
chat and it covers pretty much any topic you ever
want to talk about. I don't know, I think we
might even have a food channel on there. But it's
great to be able to have these discussions. It's great
to present this kind of information to the masses because
I know I'm still getting comments from videos from hours ago,

(02:37:00):
years ago that still have per information and it's interesting.
I've read a comment recently talking about Jordan from the
gun Nerds episodes where he was describing something and he
pretty much forecast this is probably the direction what we're
looking at, and sure enough he was right. But it's
cool to bring in this caliber of guest and panelist

(02:37:23):
and friend to talk about these important topics because there's
not enough of that, and there sure is a lot
of speculation. There's a lot of flash and content that
that's specifically made as entertainment. These discussions absolutely can be entertaining,
and they are. I think they are. Screw you if

(02:37:44):
you don't think they are. But it's great having this
and it's it's for me as the host. I get
to learn something with every episode and I love it.
So next Saturday, I have an episode with Matt Larson
and a sorted some panel talking about mitigation of moral injury. Awesome.

(02:38:04):
I'm very excited about that topic. And then the following
onesday I'll be talking with TIOT forty five and friends
talking about enjoying firearms. And for me, that's been that's
been a journey and to finally realize, man, these are
just fun and I need to accept that and not
everything has to be within this duty serious realms. It

(02:38:25):
has been a good growing up for me. So that
is all. I think. I will end the feed now
and then I can edit this and I can give
the give a copy to the patron and the network
supporters so they can watch it without it commercials and ads.
So I think that is it. I'll talk to you later.

(02:38:46):
Thank you for having me. Oh my pleasure. That was
a lot of fun. So I guess I will now
hit end stream. I'm still new to the streamyard thing,
so here's the closing.

Speaker 2 (02:38:58):
Alrighty

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P&S ModCast 419 - High Desert Cartridge Company

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