P&S ModCast 427 - Gaining Confidence in Combatives - Primary & Secondary Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
And a way to go. Hey everyone, Mettland Fair here
with Primary and Secondary. Welcome to Moodcast. We're here with Tom.
He's making a drink and we're trying to we're trying
to figure out the bugs Cecil has with his computer
still with no audio.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Text Cecil text me what device you're on?

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Yeah, because your mic is picking up something.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Unplug your headphones and talking.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
Here you Yeah, it sounds like there's a TV echoing.
And if there's not a TV echoing in your room.
So the topic tonight we're going to be talking about
gaining confidence in combatives.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
Uh, gaining confidence in electric in electronics. And I feel
bad for I. That's that's a low blow. And Ceacil,
I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
You know it's so frustrating because you think you have
everything straightened out and you're ready to go and wait.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
A minute, what this is the master of turning humans
into pretzels.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yes, yes, we can't be good at everything.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, it's probably it's probably something silly.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
I I'm I'm gonna say, find whatever room has the
TV on, and that's that's where you're gonna find your
input device. So there are some additional panelists that will
be joining us here shortly, but we're still putting things together.

(01:44):
Tom's making his drink. I'm sitting back and relaxing.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
How interested it's called the sea legs?

Speaker 1 (01:51):
And what's this?

Speaker 2 (01:52):
It's got a it's got a mescal's got celery bidders
and or go syrup?

Speaker 1 (02:01):
And how often do you drink it?

Speaker 2 (02:02):
And of course it's now my third I didn't have
limes last night. I thought I did, so I got
limes today and because I use up the last time
my lime used trying it?

Speaker 1 (02:19):
So is it fairly new to you?

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Well, yeah, this is like the third one I've had.
Oh okay, but it takes celery bidders, which is kind
of kind of pe chilliar. But if you like bloody
Mary's and stuff like that and you've had celery salt,
it's like, okay, I see how it would be appealing.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
Yeah, what about it is appealing? What are you liking
about it?

Speaker 2 (02:48):
So? I love teky stuff and the same Cecil's not
here to hear that. Cecil loves tiaki as well. Tiky
cocktails are good. You can have a lot of fun
with them. They're not as serious. But I love Alay scotches.
They are very smoky and will turn around and.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
You can and this and we're currently just in his bathroom.
That's standard.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
I can't make this camera. Maybe I'll flip it around.
I can make it work and maybe I can flip
it around. Yeah, okay, you can maybe see it. It's
doing that cinema stuff. So I've got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen. Ah,

(03:43):
I've got thirty five bottles of Eylay scotches up on
the wall.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
So you're saying you're a fan, I have a thing,
and that might be it. So is there a special
occasion or is there some reason this might be? This
is this is the this is the drink for tonight.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
This is a drink for tonight. Because I saw I
was fed a reel on it and uh hooked.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
Okay, and Cecil's back okay, official, and he sounds great.

Speaker 3 (04:16):
I just had to turn everything off and return and
turn it back.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
On, went went to the breakers, shut him all down.

Speaker 3 (04:23):
I was that I was close. I was very close
to doing that.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
So so Tom, what was it that you were saying?
What kind of drinks do you like?

Speaker 3 (04:30):
A lot?

Speaker 2 (04:31):
It's called h some I'm seeing Brian, So yeah, I
got I'm using lefroy cast drink in it. I like
urt bag and leafroy. I think more than lack of
woolen log of Woolin's little more refined. Well it's there's.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
Something to it.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
Uh, but our begg has got really good marketing. But yes,
so cecil. This is called the Sea Legs. It's a
kind of tiaky style cocktail. It's got lime juice or
goo syrup and mes cow and islay scotch.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Oh you lost me, but.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Wait, there's more celery bidters.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
Oh now that's really that's there's nothing tiaky about celery
bitters and islay scotch, a mess cow okay, tiki.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Ish tiki tiki adjacent.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
Mmmm celery bidders. No, no, no, maybe if you throw
it in your your seltzer water or something like that,
I'll live with that. But a drink and is like
scotch with anything fruity.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
You wouldn't think it would work.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
But and you saw real about this. Yeah, it was
just popped.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
Up on you know, one of the one of the
many times I'm sitting on my phone and you know,
cotton a.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
Cycle and so you watched it and you went, hey,
that sounds good, or you watch it and you said
that sounds interesting.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
So I watched it and I first I saw Celery Bidders.
I'm like, that's something that exists, okay, But then you
know they got to the Islad Scotch and I'm like, okay,
I gotta at least try it because my probably my
favorite cocktail is still the Penicillin, which is a Scotch.
It's Scotch, honey syrup, lemon, and it floats SOMEI lay

(06:31):
on top, so you get a kind of sweet and smoky,
and it's a it's a modern it's a more modern cocktail.
I think two and five when it was started. And
it's just very good. It's very balanced. I can you
drink the hell out of them.

Speaker 1 (06:47):
And not let be this real yesterday? Okay? And this
is drink number three and so this is successful? You're
this is is this gonna stay in your in your
catalog of options or are you going to discard it?

Speaker 2 (07:06):
Uh? In order to get cilery Bitters from Amazon in
a reasonable amount of time, I added by two bottles,
so you're.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
Gonna have it for a while maybe, but.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
Well, yeah, we'll see, I'm gonna be milana kaperhinias in
a couple of days.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
So yeah, have you ever have you ever had a batida?

Speaker 1 (07:28):
What's that?

Speaker 3 (07:30):
It's cashasa with different stuff, but usually like coconut milk.
It's fantastic, especially when it's hot and humid out. What
is it now, cashassa and coconut milk.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
No, what's the drink called?

Speaker 3 (07:47):
Oh batita b B A B A T I d
A okay, one of my black belt training partners. I
hadn't heard about it. Even I hadn't I didn't even
see it in Brazil. But but it was at a
jiu jitsu Christmas party and I always make cayperini as,
always bring stuff and and uh, Wesley brought this drink

(08:09):
and I'm like what is this? And it's like you
don't know about this and I'd never heard about it,
and it is fantastic. It's I'm almost it's almost like
a dessert smoothie drink.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
Well you know that was one of Oh go ahead, No.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
I was just saying, which makes it really dangerous to drink?

Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah I can. I can lay down the cabrinias.
Oh yeah, like I've gone ten or fifteen of them
before go good lord and just kind of like give
me some water and get back in the game kind
of thing. Yeah, there, dakeries are yeah, general dakers are
dangerous for me.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
Well, that was one of the cool things I thought
about going to that, the Craig Douglas party where he
had a little mixology and this is just cool and
as a non drinker, absolutely fascinating to hear all of this.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
And it's just advertiser for C and D tools shakers
there you go there.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
There and justin the mixologist. He's as big a alcohol
nerd as most of us are gun nerds.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
That's cool and he can.

Speaker 3 (09:20):
Get into it. We were I was just there. What
was I just when did I just see him? Oh?
At the last Combatives Association summit in September. It was
in Diverville, which is crazy backyard.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yeah, Craig just there.

Speaker 3 (09:37):
Yeah, well, no, he lives. That's where he's at. Okay,
that's his base is the White Pillars restaurant right there
in I don't know technically if it's Gulf Port Ocean
springs at the restaurants in but the summit was like
ten minutes from the restaurant, so a bunch of us

(09:59):
went there and it was Justin's night off, but he
came in to hang out, and you know, you can
just start talking to him. It's just like just like,
start talking to Rob hot about shotguns, hey, and and
you'll find you'll find out stuff you've never heard about before.
That's how Justin was and and that's how Craig stopped

(10:24):
busting my balls about drinking Teaki drinks, because turns out
Justin loves Tiaki and his way into it too. So
then all of a sudden, Craig was like, oh, okay, I.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
Guess cecil check this out. I got this. It was
a weird little thing. It was in my so for
my My grandma is moving out of she moved out
o her house a while ago and we're just getting
ready for sale, and this was one of the things
she always had. So I grabbed I grabbed up all
kinds of neat little things. Uh. The Knight knife I

(10:55):
just used to cut up the lines was, you know knife.
I always remember having kind of things, stupid, stupid little things.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
But that was so that's cool.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
One thing. So we're we're probably my wife and I
are probably moving later in the year, towards the end
of the year to a bigger house because we downsized
too much to this one. But one of the things
that I made her promise to allow me was a
little space for my tiki bar over off from the
side of the house somewhere because right now it's in

(11:31):
like a portable bar thing that we can move out
of the way because we just don't have a room
to leave up one. And then I was at I
was at Low's last week looking for stuff for my
new academy, and out front they had this shed. They
called it a shed, but it was no shed. It

(11:52):
was a portable outdoor tiki bar. Ye like fourteen dollars,
And I started going, huh, I wonder how I'm going
to get that past the life put that in the backyard.
It was right, hey, han, I'm being it's not going
to be in to me. I'm giving you all this space.
I'm putting it in the on the back patio. It's awesome.

(12:17):
So maybe she'll be down for it. I'm just not
sure she'd be down for fourteen hundred dollars. There's only
one way to find out that's true, and I'm going
to do it. I'm just not going to tell her.
It's just going to show.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
Up podcasts from it.

Speaker 4 (12:29):
It's an expense, that's it's true.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
It's true. And yeah, Mixology stream said it.

Speaker 3 (12:40):
I haven't. I haven't been doing as much. That's cool.
I'm sure that. I'm sure there's plenty of mixology nerds
out there.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yeah. And for me, it's just it's really interesting. I
have no reference and it's just interesting to hear.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
Oh thinks I will know it's a it's a hobby
or whatever. It's got so much depth and breadth you
can kind of pick and choose which you want to go.
I'd probably say tik tiki and Ighland Scotchos and classic
cocktails are which I mean that that's actually like a lot,

(13:18):
but you know, not really like you know, like the
classic you know, Manhattan's Manhattan's and real Martini's kind of
kind of it, uh last word, and a couple others.
It's not too many. And then you know the tiki stuff.

Speaker 3 (13:36):
Yeah, for me, it's just tiki. But but again, there's
so much depth to it. You could go so many
different ways and what's that.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
Well flavor tiki do you want kind of thing? But
the cool thing about Tiki is that it's the classic cocktails.
We we have a lot of the history already, but
tiki's newer, and it's it's young enough to have, you know,
the whole history of it and you know how things started,
but it's old enough to have like some mythology and
stuff to it as well, because.

Speaker 3 (14:07):
It was pretty much dead from the eighties into the
nineties for the most part, and so you kind of
you know it's young. It's from the thirties was when
it started. But you've got basically a couple of generations
where it didn't really exist, so people forget about it,
and then you get people like Beach Bomberry and what's

(14:29):
the Smuggler Martin Cove who start to look into it
and bring it back and start and people go, oh,
this is really cool.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
And it also has so the The other thing with
Tiki is it has a buy stuff aspect to it
and where you can spend countless amounts of dollars in teach.

Speaker 3 (14:53):
I've done that, I've done that, I have I've got
well one Craig gave me. Craig gave me a great one.
He gave me an original trader. I remember when you
posted that Yeah, that's a great one from nineteen sixty
three that was pretty pricey. And then I got one
that I love. It's it's the uh it looks like

(15:16):
a Remington shotgun shell because because Vic Bergeron was a
big duck hunter and so he created a drink called
gun Club and the glass was like a green shotgun
shell and I got, Well, I paid a lot for
that one because it was like pristine condition.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
So we need to cool things.

Speaker 3 (15:39):
You can get really cool tiki mugs and tiki stuff
really cheap too, because it's not it doesn't a lot
of it doesn't have quite the collector value, so you
can get I got one from a local tiki bar
that existed up until like the mid seventies that my
parents went to before I was even born. And I

(16:00):
think I paid like twenty dollars for the mug. So
it's kind of a cool. It's kind of a cool thing.
You can go really hardcore or you can just have
a nice collection that it really inexpensive price.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
Well, I kind of see a similarity with this and
our topic. There is there are some social aspects here.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
As Matt tries to draw it back in.

Speaker 1 (16:25):
Well, because I'm thinking I'm thinking about Craig. I'm thinking
about Craig. And again, there's some really cool there's some science,
is it, I don't know there, but there's something cool
about this and it all kind of blends together where
you have the social aspects, where you have these people
that you hang out with, you socialize with, but also

(16:46):
when it comes to the combative side, this isn't something
that you necessarily are going to be doing completely all
by yourself. No, You're probably going to be with some
form of some form of an organization. They're going to
be these social aspects. Having attended a couple classes, I
found it very inviting and fulfilling and saw there's there

(17:08):
are definitely bonds here and I could see these people
hanging out beyond just this. Yeah, and and yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:16):
I think I think the more the combatives are are
authentic and functional, I think the more that becomes true.
Having done like this, July will be my will start
my forty six year of martial arts. And so I've
done a lot where it was not that way. It

(17:37):
was very insular, it was very cultish, it was very toxic.
But then when I looked I didn't realize it at
the time because I was stupid. But when you look
back on it, it was very very unrealistic, very non
functional fighting methodology that you buy into the mythology and
you'd think, oh, this is this is like the Jedi way,

(18:00):
and it turns out later that it's complete and utter crap,
and then that world becomes very toxic. But the more
you get into like the stuff that actually works, it
tends to be much more inviting, much more social. And
I think it's because nobody has to go around proving
themselves and so it's much easier. So there's a guy

(18:24):
in the gun community. I won't name his name. I
don't know if he wants to name it, but he
said to me this years ago. I had come to
a couple of my seminars and he had just started
getting in the combative side and he was he said, Cecily,
you know, I've met a handful of jiu jitsu guys,
and you guys all have these like medium handshakes. They're
not super hard and strong, but they're not limp either.

(18:48):
And he goes, why is that because we're not trying
to prove anything. You know, most guys with that that
death grip is like I'm showing you how tough I am.
I'm showing you what a bad as I am. Well,
you know, if you're actually out on the map fighting people, boxing, wrestling,
jiu jitsu, judo, sum or whatever, if you're doing this

(19:09):
stuff and you're fighting other human beings in a you know,
in a safe way all the time, you don't have
to go, hey, look at how big my genitals are.
You have that internal confidence and that comes out in
that stuff, and I think it also comes out in
that Hey, come hang with us. We're not afraid of you.
We're not. We're not. Oh no, we got to protect

(19:30):
our club.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
We're not.

Speaker 3 (19:31):
We're not gate keeping the club to maybe let you in.
I remember nineteen ninety mid nineties, I wanted to train
at this very very famous academy, martial art academy, one
of the most famous in the world, and you had
to interview to get in. And when I went there,

(19:53):
I drove all the way from Phoenix. This is in
southern California, and I went the and I had the
meeting set and the guy who the gym manager, didn't
even bother to show up does He didn't care because
he's like, hey, whatever, right, and I'm like, well, screw you.
And that was actually a really big break for me.
That was where I started to see how toxic these

(20:16):
guys are actually are. And this was right as I was.
I was already heavy into zavat and I was already
getting super heavy into jiu jitsu and again both functional
fighting systems where you're doing this all the time. And
I was like, well, why am I trying to go
through these guys I'm going to go to You know,
the jiu jitsu guys are already welcoming. You know, I

(20:38):
we're Brazilian, Hey, my friend, come here. Let me joke you,
then you joke me, Hey, my friend, and you know
most of the fighting arts are that way. So it
is very it's very interesting how let's go beat the
hell out of each other and then let's go hang out.

Speaker 1 (20:54):
I remember listening to a podcast where John McPhee was
talking about his jiu jitsu and with his travels going
to various places to train and how he was welcomed
and able to train with all these strangers and what
how appealing is that once you figure out this is

(21:15):
the brand or this is the direction, Tom I was, He's.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
A guy that I I I will say this, you
kill me for it. I never met him. There's a
lot of there's a lot of things that are slicing
diced into short reels for him. He now understanding what
he did and how he did it, when he did it,
and that I don't know how he's he I don't

(21:41):
know how he's not uninged and whatever. But I would
really like I want to if you could find out.
I'd like to listen to it because listen new when
longer interviews, he becomes more human as opposed to the
you know, the killer weapon that he was. Oh.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
I've had phone covers with him where he was definitely
I really enjoyed talking to the guy with that mind.
I believe it was Rogan. I think he was on
Rogan talking about Yeah it was cool.

Speaker 3 (22:13):
Well, you know, and that goes to like like one
of the nicest, coolest human beings just general human beings
and certainly one of the most decent people in the
gun community is Kyle Lamb.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
I mean, I was just talking to someone about him.
I've been trying so I've been trying to get track.
I'd love to get John to be on the podcast
and Lamb I really want to get Lamb because I've
had one interaction with him in public and it was
just we were at shot show, ran into him. Super personable,
super funny, sharp wit yep, and the guy is just

(22:46):
so busy.

Speaker 3 (22:47):
Well that's the thing. I'm a buddy, I'll say I'm
a buddy, and I've tried to get him on a
couple podcasts and he's fazy. I'd love to, but I
just you know, I'm gonna be flying to New Zealand
for the next three weeks. Yeah, And I'm like, I
get it, I get it, get it, you know. But
here's how here's how cool he is. I was teaching
it out Nashville like two years ago, and he he

(23:08):
had eight thousand things that he was doing. He came
to my seminar Saturday afternoon and hung out for three
or four hours. He's like, he had just done a
precision rifle competition and he was flying out Sunday night
to do a bear hunt that was being filmed by somebody.
And he was like.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
That so how mentally zapp busy Yeah at that point.

Speaker 3 (23:33):
And and he just came by because he goes, man,
you're in my backyard. Let's let's hang out. He's just
such a cool guy. And I've said, hey, you should
be on this podcast, and he's like, I'd love to,
but it's so hard. But man, if you get the
time too. He's just the most decent person. And yet
he's you know, his his CV is you know, you

(23:57):
can't question it. You know, he's been there, done that,
above what most people would even fantasize.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
He read the book.

Speaker 3 (24:06):
He's just the most down to earth kind of guy.
And I think that comes from if you're doing this legitimately, yep,
yeah you can. You know, there's the people who go
crazy and getting that toxic thing that's just humanity. But
I think there's a there's a base where when you're
you're being authentic, it makes it easier just to go cool,

(24:26):
let's hang out.

Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
So, and actually going back to that with Shrek, you know,
it wasn't long ago when he started training, you know,
maybe five years, ten years something like that. He posted
pictures of like, you know, no stripe, white belt doing whatever.
He dude doesn't care. I mean, he'll probably kill you
if you talk to a shit, but you know that's

(24:52):
you know, dude doesn't carry went out and did the thing.
But back to what you said, Cecil. As far as
the handshake thing, one of the other things that I noticed,
and I'm I'm gonna ask you, uh, and I know
you have small dogs also, but have you ever noticed
how like every everybody who I know who's like super
into jiu jitsu tiny dogs. Yeah, German shepherds, it's all

(25:14):
small dogs.

Speaker 3 (25:16):
Yeah, that's probably about that's probably about seventy percent. It's
probably smaller dogs Craig. Craig's dogs have always been small.
Of course, so is Craig, So it's okay.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah, No, it's just something that like like Daniel, So
whenever Daniel Bracy came in for the first time I
met him, he came in for seminar and you know,
tiny little Yorkshire Terrier or something like that, and you
know Warren's got small dogs. Yeah, a couple others, and
it's just like it finally clicked. Uh. It might have
been when I met you when it kind of like

(25:48):
started to hone in on it and like, guy's got
tiny dogs.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
Okay, there's something to this that in revolvers. Wait a minute, well, I.

Speaker 3 (25:57):
Think you know again, I think it's this. There's no
we don't you don't.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
Need your dog to project anything about it?

Speaker 3 (26:05):
Yes, exactly. I don't need to carry the desert eagle
you know all the time. I don't need to have
a giant, you know, three hundred pound dog. Don't you
know all this weird stuff is because you want to
see if I know what I'm talking about, Meet me
on the mat. Let's go, bro. I have no problem
with that.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
Absolutely, So before and John's here now, before John and
Cecil jumped on. One of the concepts I want to
ultimately discuss is so we will be talking about gaining
confidence in combatives. And so far what we've discussed is
what we talked about drinks and mixology.

Speaker 3 (26:42):
Good point.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
I enjoyed it. But also discuss the social aspects of
this and how important it is to find to be
around the right group of people and the things I
noticed surrounding Craig Douglas and there's just there's something there
and I don't know, I wish I could articulate it better.
But if if it's a welcoming environment, people are more

(27:05):
more apt to return as an instructor as a student.
How do you help develop that and how do you
help develop gaining these this confidence and combatives. So a
comment came up and I'll bring that up here on
the on the screen here. Shortly, all of this ultimately
started from a Facebook post, and they facebook post was

(27:27):
discussing off police officers and their external vests and hand
placement and interesting discussion. There are a lot of people
were very passionate about it, and for me personally, the
bottom line was, I'm more concerned about officer safety. There's
a time and a place for stuff in your hands wherever.
That being said, I've seen videos, I've seen in person

(27:49):
officers put their hands in there in the armholes, in
the during the wrong time. And here's the here's here's
a comment that came up just recently. I started in
nineteen and this is a comment from Joseph on YouTube.
When I started in nineteen ninety nine, just about every
patrol officer my agency was excellent with empty hands. Now
maybe twenty five percent, And it definitely seems those foundational

(28:14):
those basic skill sets have definitely kind of gone the wayside.
Firearms don't seem to be as prevalent as they could be. Definitely,
verbal stuff is a little bit more emphasized, but hands
on is so the rest control stuff seems to be
so much less of a priority. How do we encourage it?

(28:35):
And it's not just for cops, it's for anyone, And
so how do we encourage those students? Or as a student,
how do you encourage yourself? As an instructor, how do
you encourage this? And I know the bottom line is participation.
You need to participate because you're going to gain that confidence.
But how do you even get there?

Speaker 3 (28:56):
Well? I think, you know, I want John to actually
address that for a second, because it speaks to the
social thing, and I think he has something that he
can add about the summit and the environment of the
summit to lead to that. I say this, I think
where it starts is that the whoever is talking and

(29:19):
is trying to convince somebody that you should do combatives.
It starts with that person. If that person is haranguing people,
If that person is if you don't do this, you're
not serious. If that person is trying to come off

(29:39):
and look at me, I'm such a badass. You need
to be like me. You've already screwed up the conversation.
Everything needs to start from that instructor, the spokesman, the
person trying to convince you should be like, hey, you
know what, Number one, this is fun, Like you said,
this is welcoming, this is a good this is a

(30:02):
good way to spend time. And while you're doing that,
you get these good skills and look, hey, I enjoy it.
And I think I'm a well adjusted kind of guy,
and I think that's where it needs. I think that's
a start because I think a lot of times and
I saw that on that post because I went back
today and looked at it after you said that was
the start of it, and I saw a couple of

(30:22):
guys who were getting, you know, upset about you know,
the way some of the conversation was going, and they
were getting like, oh, I'm like, hold on, this is
not what we're trying to do that this idea should
be let's just talk about this, but anyway, stop. But
I do think John, because I super love the way

(30:46):
the Summit's gone the last couple of years with the environment,
you know, and I think all of his instructors have
a part, but I think it's John's guidance and vision
that kind of really sets the tone.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
So we'll jump in real quick. So it's the cliche
or whatever. Everybody likes to ignore the idea of a
safe space. But you know, welcoming and and and whatever,
and you need to have everybody there. Yeah, but Johnayson
said a word, so.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
His mike doesn't even work. He's pulling his is my whoa? Whoa?

Speaker 4 (31:25):
Are you guys to hear me?

Speaker 1 (31:27):
You're a little quiet? You might not have the right
mic on?

Speaker 4 (31:31):
Is that working out?

Speaker 3 (31:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (31:34):
All right?

Speaker 4 (31:35):
Okay, uh so here here's the thing, right, I like
the guys who are very like I guess low hard
is the word that comes to mind, like basically like
you need to be like me kind of deal. Like
if they're telling you that you probably don't want you
probably want to give far away from that person. Yeh,
that's that's the first thing. But I will say there

(31:58):
is there is some the to the idea that I
should There should be something that person has that they
present to me that I want. They should have some
kind of result, and if they have that result, they
can at least get me there. Now, with that being said,
I personally am not in the business of trying to

(32:20):
convince people they need to train. And this is a
question that's come up both years in a row. It's like, hey,
how do we get cops to train? And how do
we get women to train? And blah blah blah, Like honestly, like,
we can't even get enough dudes to train. We can't
get enough people who who would if you ask them, like, Hey,
what role do you play with your family? I'm the protector,

(32:43):
provider and all that. We can't even get enough of
those ghost people to come out and train. So to
get people, now, with that in mind, you're a police officer,
you're a military member, You're a diminutive person, and you
understand that you go out and where you are disproportionately
subjected to horrific violent acts from people, and I can't

(33:08):
convince it, and you haven't figured it out to train
yet on your own. There is nothing I'm gonna say
to make that any different what happens. Typically the most
committed committed students I've ever come across, and and also instructors,
they've always been people who have experienced something horrific and

(33:28):
then they become dedicated and disciplined and so almost relentless
in their pursuit of the craft. It's unfortunate that that's
the way it is, but that's just the way I've
seen even myself, like I've I came into this with
with with the background and an upbringing that was just
abusive and horrific and everything like that. And then you

(33:50):
ask all the instructors and it may not necessarily be
that same situation. But you know, Craig has been very
open about his story. Cecil has has been opened to
about his Kelly mccannon, who's he knew who he was,
and Cliff Byerley, I don't know about Cliff. Cliff has
never been bullied a day in his life.

Speaker 3 (34:09):
I think, No, No, he is the bully everybody.

Speaker 4 (34:13):
He meant he wanted to make sure he bully everybody
wait well into his seventies, but uh, you know, and
then and then people like Matt who just he grew
up with that pressure of having a father who is
pushing him to like do what a man's supposed to do,
and or or even something as simple of reading stories
of heroes and just trying to aspire to be the

(34:35):
person that you think you're supposed to be. So and
as far as environment with the student like people don't
even people don't even realize how cool of a community
that combatives is until they actually get into it until
after the fact. Because of the three circles that are
run in between the fitness circles, the shooting circles, and

(34:57):
the and the fighting circles. I would say, like because
like shooting is kind of the face of the tactical community.
A lot of times the conversations online, like you just
talked about the dude in the fest and you had
it like a you had a context. Nobody even bothered
to even ask what that was about. Everybody immediately they
jumped on it and they had their own thing. And

(35:18):
it's incredibly like emotional and egotistical, like the conversations, and
so it's a lot of times it's hard to process
the tactical community and just realize that people are kind
of just being direct or just they're kind of a
speaking from a point of what's their frame of reference
and where they come from and what they see. So

(35:41):
like if and there's a lot of badasses in the community,
So if they're a badass, they're like, oh, you know,
me putting my hands in my vest never hurt me
or something like that. But you're thinking about it from
the standpoint of the the people who lack that pipeline
and lack that development, lack that tactical mindset, and that
that that over site presence of like I might have

(36:02):
to fight for my life today. And because and it's
hard to explain that to people, because they just automatically
assume that police officers, military members, they are basically indoctrinated
to be John Wick or some kind of like a
type of person who says, I don't know what it's called,
but I know the sound it makes when it kills

(36:22):
a man kind of do very very overly dramatic. They
have this imagination of what it's supposed to be. And
it's almost like the way I would explain that to
people of like how wrong they are. It's like, remember
when you watch your kids playhouse and they acted like
mom and they acted like that, You're like, oh, it's
so cute. They acted out and had this abstract version
of what mom and dad are supposed to be. That's

(36:44):
really what it is for most military members and most
police officers, because most of their lives are fairly peaceful,
and when you go through that, most interactions are incredibly peaceful.
Most people just kind of most of the people you
deal with, they're just kind of just need some they
need an adult to come tell them, like, hey, you
need to act like an adult too. You're like, you
know what, Yeah, I was being an ass. Let me

(37:05):
let me go a how to do it. But then
you get that one off where you're just like out
of nowhere. Right, So it's like you just hit that
lottery and the day chows you and you just didn't
prepare for it because you went your life thinking that
I'm not ever going to get into a fight. Most
people are just going to comply once I show up,
and all of a sudden, your reality gets changed and

(37:26):
it gets flipped on its head. And then on top
of that, everybody has phones and they're recording you. And
then you're exposed and you're on this thing. And now
now you get people in all over the world basically
having an input and having an opinion, and then people
will hang onto the opinions of others who they deem
are kind of credible, like a let's say, like a

(37:48):
Joe Rogan or something like that, who knows a whole
fuck ton about martial arts and fighting and violence and
all this shit, but he knows fuck all about what
that whole process is, Like, what the administrative can traints
are what is it that to deal with a constant
condition of constraint where you've got not enough money, you
got not enough manpower, and you definitely don't have enough

(38:08):
time to get to fucking training. And that's the decisions
that everybody in charge of these organizations they're operating under.
So when you start presenting it in that frame, and
I think it's and I'm getting around to answer the
question of I was like, how do you get people
to train? Is that you really got to present them
a factual, a logical, and honest experience about what it

(38:32):
is that you know, I don't there's a lot of like,
I'm a jiu jitsu black belt, but I'm not out
here running jiu jitsu camps for World matt World Championships,
because that's not me. I am talking about as far
as studying the craft of a intersection of weapons access
adaptive handgun skills, how do you apply firearms using them

(38:53):
at engagement speed? How do you shoot for fighting? How
do you fight for shooting? And exploring that app That's
something that I dedicate my time and my craft to.
So even though I don't have that operational door kicking background.
But because I speak from the point of what I
think I know, and I'm even agnostic to my own shit,

(39:15):
I'm able to have conversations with people that have done
those things and have high level conversations just out of
authenticity and just and just being curious about what it
is I'm trying to do. And even with you know,
being agnostic and Secoul and Craig, they've had the same
thing that and that's really a large impact that they've

(39:37):
had on me, is like don't believe your own bullshit
kind of deal. Even that, like just just continuing to
study and just doing a little bit a lot continues,
like you're so much further down the path, and like
I try to compare myself to where I was ten
years ago, and it's just like, man, I knew fuck
all then, and I still feel like I don't know enough,
but like compared to back then, So I try to

(39:59):
serve the person I was when I came into the
space where I was just trying to like what does
it look like to get into these situations? And you know,
I try to like obviously there are like stupid comments
that people say, but I try to treat every question
that even though it's pretty self evident to me based
on all the knowledge that I have now, I try
to treat every question as if like this person legitimately

(40:22):
doesn't know, because I remember being that dummy, like I
didn't know what I shouldn't say, dummy, but but being
naive at one point. And I think a lot of this,
You know, we understand that criminals are watching this stuff,
they're practicing this stuff al Kaida, they're watching the performed
shooting videos, and they're going and doing dry fire drills.
So a lot of what we do is kind of

(40:43):
kept close to the chest. So even though people are
kind of I guess like closed off and very direct
and almost apprehensive, there's still they're still very approachable. And
I want to also be part of that. I want
to be part of that solution, being being an approachable person,
being someone that kind of helps people. Even though I

(41:06):
don't have an answer, at least let me help you
get on the path. And if I don't know, I
can at least find someone who does and connect you there.
And I'm not gonna I'm not going to give you
an answer that is like serves me because I think
I think that people they deserve more to my bias.
So I'm going to deliver as far as like the
best I know, and like, hey, this is all I know.
This is good, But here's another guy who's even better

(41:28):
and who knows those things. And if you don't want
to know those things, hey, ask this person. They might
be able to point you in the right direction.

Speaker 3 (41:34):
So well, and you know what, and that speaks to
why the summit, how the summit is realistically because the
group that John brought together for the summit, that's pretty
much everybody, right, everybody's got that same attitude. So you've
got don't know how many instructors John twenty this year

(41:56):
is twenty two, twenty twenty two between counting you what,
counting master can I gotta gotta keep it, got to
count him. But all guys with legitimate background, right, but
all of them are going to and have and do

(42:18):
act in the manner that John just said. You go
to Cole Miller and say something, he's gonna be like, yeah, dude,
I'll help you with this. Or hey, I don't know,
but go over and see this, you know, go see
Cliff because you know Cliff's been working that material, or
you know, whatever. Somebody comes to see me and it's like, no, man,
you should go, you know. You know, Jerry Wetzel is

(42:39):
the guy you need to see. When you're talking about
the nice stuff, go go talk to you, you know,
and everybody is that way. And I think when you.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
Are in that.

Speaker 3 (42:50):
Environment and that the people that you look at as
the experts, the people you're learning from, they're relaxed and
they're open and they're just like John said, just you know,
I'm just I'll answer your questions that you know, I'll
help you out. That comes across so much differently than

(43:10):
I think what we see a lot, especially in the
gun community, especially coming out of law enforcement or military,
where it's hey, I'm this and I did this, so
now I'm telling you to do that, okay. And there's
some people who respond to that. You know, there's some
people who just want to go to those you know,

(43:32):
shooting classes with guys like that, just to hang out
with those kind of people. I don't think the magic
what's that? Yeah exactly, But I don't think that's long
term sustainable stuff. And I'm certainly not helping anything. Whereas
if you go to legitimate combatives, guys you know, Kelly mccannon.
There's a perfect example, right, guys been doing it longer

(43:54):
than all of us, at that higher level where he's
famous and he's and he's operation and teaching and doing
stuff at the real end. And you sit down and
you talk to him, You go to his gym, you
come to him at the at the summit. Oh good lord.
He'll just start talking and hey man, how's it going here.
Let me pour you a drink, and you just hang out.

(44:17):
And he's a very you know, open welcoming dude, and
he will fricking kill you if you mess with him.
But that doesn't I mean, that comes across, but not
in a bad way. You know, even Cliff, right, Cliff Barley,
you watch him teach and you go, good lord, this

(44:37):
guy loves to pass on information. Just don't just don't
say anything mean to him because then you'll die. But
short of that, I mean, you know, so you get
these guys, and I think that's a I think that's
what needs to come out more. And I wish more
people in like the shooting community would kind of take

(45:01):
that approach, you know. I think they'd be more open,
and I think it'd be more successful with bringing new
people in. Right, everybody's in the gun community is talking about, Oh,
how do we get past the one percent? Well, how
about not making fun of the other ninety nine percent.
That's probably a good way to get them in, because
why would any of the ninety nine percent want to

(45:23):
train with you when you're laughing at him? Because oh,
why do you have a Springfield XD and forty.

Speaker 1 (45:28):
A in a.

Speaker 3 (45:30):
Mike's holster? What are you an Asshold? No, I'm brand new,
I don't know anything.

Speaker 2 (45:36):
Well, the shooting community wants to take the biggest slice
of the existing community there is, generally, the combatist community
wants to make the combatist community as big as possible.
That's a good but it's just two totally different things.

Speaker 3 (45:49):
That's a good way putting it. That's true because like
every jiu jitsu guy I know loves to proselytize. And
the way we proselytize is, Hey, bro, here's I love this.
I like jiu jitsu, and this is what it's done
for me. You want me to show you something, Hey,
you could do this too, you know. Whereas the gun
you know a lot of times in the gun community,

(46:09):
and I'm part of the gun community. I'm not saying
this is like some outsider you know, criticizing it. I'm
more as part of it.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
Going.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
Man, I wish we could be better at this because
I think we should bring more of the people in,
you know. And I think the only thing we're doing
wrong in the combatives community is that we're just not
loud enough.

Speaker 4 (46:34):
You know, where there's just not busy. We've got a
train most of us.

Speaker 3 (46:39):
If you look at everybody, If you look at everybody,
all the instructors from the summit, which I think is
a pretty good standard, everybody's doing stuff. Nobody's just sitting
around twiddling their thumbs. Everybody's actively doing something productive and
that they teach and get this information out across on
the side and doing social media is when we have

(47:02):
time to do it.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
So could I could an aspect with all this be
well in the gun community, we can purchase things for status,
but for combatives that takes personal investment that well I'm
just going to buy something and look status.

Speaker 4 (47:22):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's all about like there's a
brand called show your Role, and and that it's it
literally translates to that to show your role, like show
exactly and so it's like, hey, look I'm a big
bad dude, blah blah blah, Like my right, cool, show
me Like that's like you know, everybody, everybody's an A type,
everybody wants to compete. Everybody's from Missouri, right, so you know,

(47:42):
show me what it is that you can do, Like
if that's really that's if that's really what it is about,
Like you don't have to tell me, like it'll it'll say.
What you can do will say more about me about
you than anything any words you can articulate. Right, So,
and in the in the shooting community's what like I've
kind of embraced shooting matches, and I'll say too, it's

(48:04):
like with shooting matches, I'm not I haven't jumped on
that train of like if you're not a GM or
anything like that, you've got nothing to teach or something
like something to that effect of that. That's kind of
I try to stay. Martial arts has informed me as
far as waves go and trends and everything like that,
like when they come through, like see what's going on,

(48:27):
Explore that trend, but at least take one step back
and follow where it's at. Because people they don't even
understand a lot of what happens with martial arts is
once you are once you're introduced sport to anything that's combative,
any combative skill, two things happen. The first thing is
at the skill level skyrockets. Everybody is competing. Everybody wants

(48:48):
to win the game, so everybody's doing what they need
to do as far as getting through that repetition and
refinement train. So they're getting really, really fucking good. However,
because they care so much about winning the game, they
forget why the game was created, and then they start
exploiting the rules and then you see all these weird things.
So like shooting is about twenty years ahead of where

(49:11):
sport or jiu jitsu is, right and you see kind
of like the things that people were doing ten years ago.
I'm looking at jiu jitsu and I'm just like, huh,
And it's like they're right behind the shooting community, where
they're so far removed from that competitive aspect, that cage
fighting aspect, that bare knuckle eye poke biting, you know,

(49:32):
growing strike kind of deal, fucking anything goes type fighting
and that, and even like the shooting community, they're so
far removed from Jeff Cooper, who has Stacked Body Bodies right,
who literally wrote the book for USPSA, And you know,
you watch it and it's like, these guys have no
idea what their what their heritage is.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
They have no idea.

Speaker 4 (49:56):
So that's really that's really where I think the martial
arts aspect, that's really where it's. It's really giving me
a wisdom years ahead that I didn't think that I
normally wouldn't have if I just kind of came straight
into shooting, because you don't really we don't really assess
shooting as a martial art. We just kind of do

(50:17):
it as a craft, or we do it as a
as a practice, and we kind of like just go
to the range, plink a few rounds. It's it's just
an activity. We don't really assess it that way in
terms of skill development. So if you look at it
and if you put competitive shooting in the lens of
combat sports, you're like, oh, okay, this is this tracks,

(50:38):
this follows the trend. They're way off as a myth
because the skill level is really high. Everybody's trying to
win the game because there's associated special favor status, uh
you know, money, access and everything like that. For the
winners of the game. So people are kind of like
they don't even realize what it is that they're doing,
so even though there's a lot of crazy benefits to it,
but because there's there's no kind of combative within the

(51:00):
within the community, it's like kind of like boy Scouts,
like really really good for you, but except it's full
of fucking doors, so it's like you don't really want
to participate, right, So, and jiu jitsu is like right
there too. It's very weird. It's like more paint and nails,
more man buns. It's just like, what the fuck's going
on with jiu jitsu?

Speaker 3 (51:23):
And I try not to say anything online because then
it's going to be like, yeah, because you're sixty old
man and you're the get you know, get off my
lawn type thing yelling at cloud right, But damn I'll
own it sometimes because yeah, I don't. It's weird.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
It is.

Speaker 3 (51:44):
It is because I love, you know, I love the
com I think competition in the shooting world is great.
I think competition on the on the jiu jitsu side
is great. I just think that there should be sort
of this thing floating above everybody's head that this was
a competitive outlet for fighting. You know, just just kind

(52:07):
of keep that somewhere in your mind that yeah, go
and win and go do the stuff. But hey, here
was the origin of it, you know, so we don't
completely lose touch with all that kind of stuff. And man,
I don't want to be that. I don't want to
be that martial artist guy who goes, that's just play,
that's not real fighting, because you know, then that goes

(52:29):
the way of traditional martial arts. You know, so we
got to find that balance both on the shooting side and.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
On the shooting side.

Speaker 3 (52:37):
Yeah, you know, it's easy, so there's a lot to
learn from, you know, the guys doing performance shooting. But
at the same time, it has to be infused with well,
how does this work in the real world? You know,
every time I every time I hear a shooter, you know,
just start talking about you know, missing and Charlie's and stuff.

(53:01):
I'm like, okay, I get it, but you know, think
about what that actually means. You know, well, you know,
competition gets like it's just like jiu jitsu guys. You know,
you see guys who love to play turtle and I
just go, don't it just drives me crazy.

Speaker 4 (53:22):
Right, I'm a you know, Matt's not here, but I'm
immediately thinking about Matt's words, because like, uh, you know,
in the army combatives world, like these are this is
this is where we're developing warriors, right, Like we're taking
people like yeah, man like people. They got a uniform on,
they carry rifles or whatever, and they wear vests, but
they're still regular ass people and there still needs to

(53:43):
be some kind of process that turns these regular people
into fighters or you got to make them a fighter
before you make them a war fighter, I should say,
And Matt would always say that it's not because we're
good at combatives that will win the next war. It's
because what it takes to be good at combatives, yes,
in the next war. And that's really why I think
the element that people are missing. It's interesting too, Like

(54:04):
when you hear professional fighters and they're fighting for something
the high stakes, whether it's a championship or a contender
slot or anything like that, they always describe the way
they're training is like I'm ready to go to war,
I'm prepared to die and blah blah blah, And like
if I had somebody stack in a stack with me,
talking talking like hey, look, I'm ready to die in
this fucking room if I need to, and I'm going

(54:26):
to be here with you, and if anything happens to you,
I'll fucking drag you off. I'll make sure that you're
getting out of here, like we're going to win tonight
at all costs. Like that's the type of dude you
want in the stack with you, not necessarily like if
somebody is like an MMA fighter and they're like, oh, well,
we need to do more MMA because that's what I'm
comfortable with kind of deal. It's like dude that has
zero contribution to the mission whatever whatever that is, and

(54:49):
it doesn't help me. Like you're just you're just kind
of just sticking with what you're doing, just kind of
finding an excuse to like shit on what it is
that we're doing. And a lot of the conversation like
in the I guess on social media, like when we're
trying to like and Matt, like, I feel your pain too,
because like you're trying to have like high level conversations

(55:09):
and create dialogue and then people just come with these
like you know, this diary of mouth, like drive by
comments and.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
And well and then also they're seeing it from and
you mentioned it before, they're just saying it from their perspective.
But they're the exception.

Speaker 4 (55:23):
Correct, right, And yeah, it's like but they're the one
that was perfect. They never did it wrong, they never
made a mistake, and it's just like, yeah, that's how
I know you're full of shit. If like that's like
that's a telltale sign, like I've got exactly a solution
that works every single time, Like I got something that
works pretty well. But and even then it's just like
when it sucks up, it's bad. So it's so I

(55:45):
can't that stuff is like it's hard to have conversations
because it's like people are kind of so convinced and
really they're just emotionally attached and they've just found just
enough logic to justify their attachments.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
Though. Yeah, but again, all these.

Speaker 4 (56:00):
Things, this is just the byproduct of doing all these
things and getting there. Is that like, like, what do
you hear about guys who train often they never get
into fights, and if they do, it's like minimal damage
to them, minimal damage to the person that attacked them.
If it's a cop, they were able to Most of
the time they're able to talk somebody down. If the

(56:21):
person's combative, they're able to resist them, restrain them and
hold them down. Even me, like I thought a drunk dude,
right and that you know what I mean, I was
able to put him down without hurting them or anything
like that. And he was swinging on everybody and he
got lucky. He ran into that dude hit the lottery
twice in one night. The dude that he tried to
swing on initially had jiujitsu training, so he just restrained him.

(56:43):
And then I should have been I had jiu jitsu
training and I just restrained him. Like any one of
those people could have been like knocked him out, he
would have felled died right on the spot.

Speaker 3 (56:51):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (56:51):
So it's a not only is it a force multiplier,
and it develops all these intangible aspect of tenacity, of grit,
of willing to fight, of you know, have it seizing
that initiative, you know when we talk about speed, surprise,
violence of action, Like how do you develop that? And
it's just like, well, you subject people to force them

(57:14):
to exercise physical courage against physical adversity, and combatives is
a perfect tool for that, especially when you start introducing
sims and knives and everything like that and kind of
the things that you'll see at ecqc ceases course, my course,
the combatives of it and so on, Right, And you
introduce those elements and you put them through that, and

(57:35):
then all of a sudden they have a certain swagger
to them to where they show up on scene and
it's like, I don't know exactly what it is about
this person, but I'm going to try not to test
them because something about it, what it is, there's a calm, right,
And then you show up also with the confidence of
like I don't want to hurt you because you know,

(57:55):
I run the risk of hurt getting hurt too, So like,
let's just agree that this is going to go the
way I needed to go. You did something, they sent
me here to go and correct you. And it's just business.
It's not personal, brother, you know. And and I think
that's that's the thing. We kind of like we're kind
of throwing the baby out with the bath water because

(58:15):
we're so caught up in like exactly the activity what
we're doing, instead of like what it is that we're
actually trying to achieve. What process are we trying to
work through.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
Well, you mentioned something that I really appreciated, and I
remember Matt. And when we're talking about Matt, we're talking
about Matt Larson, the father of modern US Army combatives,
and I just messaged him. He's been on the podcast
a couple times. I remember him bringing this up specifically
talking about this combatives program. And it's not so they're
going to fix bayonets and go to the mat with

(58:44):
the bad guys.

Speaker 2 (58:45):
No, this is.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
Confidence and this affects so many additional things. So you
already have that, You already have that ability, and it
translates to greater ability across the booard. Let's talk about that,
because I think that's such a such a cool idea
that you know what, training this and being effective with
this can help on more than just your combatives level.

(59:09):
It might help with there's a ripple effect on the
positivity that it can establish in your life. And maybe
saying this, I am an absolute hypocrite with this because
I am not an active combatives person. Do I enjoy it? Yeah?
Right now, I have a bit of a time crunch,
But that happens. Actually before we do that, let me

(59:31):
I'm going to hit a button here We're going to
do a minute thirty eight nine, maybe a minute forty
seconds of advertisements. This will give everyone an opportunity to
run and Tom, I'm sorry you can't mix a drink
in that amount of time, but this will be a
quick little break. So let's see here in about it

(59:51):
about a minute and forty seconds. We'll be right back.
We're going to talk a little bit more about this
perspective that Matt Larson presented, which I think is really
really cool, talking about getting into the getting into combatives
and how it has the potential of positively affecting your
life further down the road. Tom, are you going to
say something really really smart right now?

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
No, I'm assuming we can talk while you run the
whatever you run it now.

Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
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(01:02:05):
what what was so important?

Speaker 3 (01:02:08):
No, I just wasn't.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
There was There was nothing, nothing for the stream, That's
all I know, John, your comparison of you know, you know,
modern competitive shooting being a head of jiu jitsu. Never
thought about it that way and never like there's and
I saw Cecil's reaction to it as well. I I

(01:02:32):
never would have thought about that, but it was it's
just so spot on.

Speaker 4 (01:02:36):
I think it's a it's a it's a combat sport.
It's just the competitive focus on winning the game so long.
They don't even realize that.

Speaker 3 (01:02:44):
No, no, it is.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
But I never imagined that, Like, you know, we accept
us P s A and I d P A is
what it is. You know, U S s A being
more serious.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
Id P A is kind of.

Speaker 3 (01:02:56):
In the mix.

Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
But I I that that makes a lot of sense.
And the only thing that I think is an issue
is as far as comparison you can you can take
a you can take a new shooter to some kind
of compative or the new person the compative combative stuff.
I think they relate to things more because of the

(01:03:22):
base of shooting. They have to their first you know,
their first match as opposed to their first ju jitsu class.
But still I think where you know you're spot on,
they're definitely you know, twenty years ahead. As far as
acceptance and use of.

Speaker 4 (01:03:40):
It, Yeah, there's a thing too, I think, uh, And
this is how I articulate as far as like why
I think people need to train hand in hand or
anything like that. It's the the confidence that you get
in the shooting, in just shooting a target where it

(01:04:01):
doesn't provide pressure or anything like that. It's it's it's
a lot of fun. I love doing it and everything
like that. However, it's stationary, it's static. Pretty much fucking
anything you do is gonna work on it. But now,
once you try to experience that against a living human
being who want who has as much skin in the
game as you do, and they want to they want

(01:04:22):
to win and everything like that, what do you do then, Well,
you just start putting things in center in terms of
in terms of like, what's the typical fight plan of
the person I'm gonna fight. If they typically it's gonna
be something of where they're gonna try to They're gonna
try to encroach on me. They're gonna try to find
me where I'm not paying attention. So what I got

(01:04:44):
to do is make sure that I'm not in my
phone and everything like that, So that solves that problem.
Next thing is like, all right, cool, Now they're gonna
go ahead and maybe say some aggressive words. So I'm
gonna make sure I try to look like the good
guy and so on, and I'm gonna try to use
my words to make sure I set some kind of
verbal boundary. Now, let's say they're trying to physically assault me.
The typical of plan of the person on conducting a

(01:05:07):
physical assault is bludget they're going to use some type
of strikes or anything like that. So what could I do?

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
Then?

Speaker 4 (01:05:13):
Then I can basically achieve a clinch, put them on
the ground, and whatever plan that they have as far
as like hitting me in the face, I've kind of
nullified that effectively. And that's kind of like in the
combatis world, will recall that the universal fight plan basically
budget bludging your fit, bludgeon the person with your fist,
and so you can no longer fight back effectively. That's
the tactic. And then if you look at that, you

(01:05:35):
take martial arts and you start looking at them in
terms of training methods for specific tactics. That tactic of
street fighting of hitting somebody right really hard in the face.
Many times, boxing is the same tactic. Taekwondo is the
same tactic. Barati's the same tactic. Muy tai is the
same tactic. What they've done is that they've introduced an

(01:05:55):
element to where they can introduce repetition, refinement. They have
a specific training method, they have an actionable modality to
get better at applying that tactic. Right, and now you
start taking a look at judo, which has the intention
of you know, using the omniprison impact weapon of hitting

(01:06:16):
you with the earth. So their plan is to achieve
the clinch, put you down, right, Jiujitsu has the plan
of achieve the clinch and put you down. However, jiu
jitsu is also recognized that sometimes I achieved the clinch
on someone bigger and stronger than me, and trying to
put them down isn't as easy as it looks. So
sometimes they might try to knock they might knock me down.

(01:06:38):
So what I'm going to do now is I'm going
to use my legs as the last line of defense.
And it's interesting because the term guard aguada right in Portuguese,
it translates to defense. So you start assessing. So, okay,
so now what's the tactic?

Speaker 3 (01:06:57):
Then?

Speaker 4 (01:06:57):
The tactic or the main training method of jiu jitsu
is live ground grappling. Same thing for wrestling. Now there
is an intermediate there with judo where and if you
look at the posture of Muay Thai and you look
at the posture of Judo, you recognize that, oh, Judo
has developed their takedowns for a clinch where strikes are involved. Right,

(01:07:21):
and if you look at the way wrestling shoot to
take down versus the way jiu jitsu guys shoot to
take down, you've realized that, oh, the training method there
is that they never hit each other with the face.
They never need each other. So like that's why the
jiu jitsu takedown or shot it looks kind of it
looks kind of, it looks kind of crude compared to
wrestling because jiu jitsu guys when they're fighting Valetuto, they

(01:07:43):
typically will set up the strap the shot with strikes
because they want to hit you in the face, so
they get your hands up. So when they when they
bend down, which is like a big no no in wrestling,
they bend down, they they can lace behind your knees
no problem, because they're hitting you in the face first
and then they're going for the shot. So when you
start assessing things from that action, like, okay, the tactic
has either hit them in the face right or achieve

(01:08:06):
a clinch and take them down. When you start looking
at it from that lens, it's like, okay, now I
understand what this martial art does. So each martial art
isn't necessarily like a complete system. None of them can be.
Every one of them has a specific primary training method,
and then sometimes they have a secondary training method that
leads to the primary like using strikes to set up

(01:08:27):
the takedown or using you know what I mean, using
strikes and then using your takedown defense in reverse, or
using your takedown to ability in verse. Now you got
sprawl and brawl, So you can see how naturally when
you look at it those like okay, it makes perfect
sense how the UFC had these evolutions going on, and
then now I start to realize that, Okay, so with

(01:08:49):
the rule set, if the rule set is more free
and it allows for more things or at least comes
to as close as possible without getting into eye gouging,
biting each other, other people's friends, getting involved in everything
like that, the loose of the rule set, the more
realistic in terms of that specific system is going to be.

(01:09:10):
And what we found out is that not one system
is effective or is going to be effective everywhere. And
what happened was we developed mixed martial arts. Then if
you look at soldiers and you look at you know,
Tier one teams, what do they do they have? They
have what's called a medal, They have a mission essential
task that so all these core skills that they have
to be good at and so they got to be

(01:09:30):
a B student across the board. So I say all
that just to say that at the highest level, with
the highest stakes, no one is working on one thing.

Speaker 1 (01:09:45):
Randal very cool.

Speaker 3 (01:09:50):
So so you know, Matt, Matt, you were talking about
the confidence thing.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
Yeah, and I think.

Speaker 3 (01:10:00):
I think that's the understated thing about fighting, you know,
being decent at fighting is that that does come across.
You know, we can fool ourselves. We can try to
fool ourselves. We can try to pretend. You know, we
all mask it a certain way. We all, you know,
take the cool guy shooting class and we have the

(01:10:20):
cool guy gear, we have the appearance, and we try
to project that we're John Wick whatever. But we know,
in our heart of hearts, we know if we're not
good enough. We know, well, I shouldn't say it this way.
We don't. We don't know that we're not good enough,

(01:10:41):
but we're not sure that we're good enough. And I
had this. I was talking to Larry Linneman about this
a few years ago because he had the same we Basically,
he and I were basically on the same path through
the eighties and nineties. We essentially trained with the same people.
We did the same arts, the same lineage, the same
and strych across the board, and we both had the

(01:11:03):
same conclusion, I'm doing JKD. I'm doing the all the
Indonesian March martial arts, which I had like four different systems.
I think I was instructor Credson and it was good
and it was cool, and I was like, I'm doing this,
and I can hit the pads really well, and I
can hit type pads really well, and I can move
sticks around. But there was this thing in the back

(01:11:24):
of my head was like, hmm, I'm not quite sure
that this will work. I'm not quite sure. I think
it will, and I'm working hard, but I'm not quite
hope it will.

Speaker 1 (01:11:38):
What's that hope it will?

Speaker 3 (01:11:40):
Right? But you don't know. But when you do the
authentic fighting systems judo, sombo wrestling type, boxing, boxing, jiu jitsu,
where you know you're actually doing it all the time,
it no longer becomes I don't know or I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
It's I know.

Speaker 3 (01:12:02):
I know I can do this because I do it
all the time. You may not be the best at it. Like, Okay,
I'm a black belt. I'm a good black belt. I'm
a really good black belt. I'm a really good instructor.
But there's hell, there's a ton of better black belts
out there than me, right there's you know, you go
to the you go to the combative summit. Pretty much

(01:12:24):
every one of those guys is gonna stamp me when
we roll. They're great guys, but it doesn't change what
I can do against most people and what I know
in my heart. And it's like we're talking about the
handshake thing at the beginning. In the beginning, it's like,
I don't think any of it, None of us go, oh,
I don't need to shake somebody hand really hard or whatever.

(01:12:49):
It's just I shake the hand because that's how I
shake the hand. It's this medium level because I'm not
trying to prove anything, and so that comes across. And
I remember William Maple will always and his lectures always
talked about I think it was a Harvard study in
like the late sixties, and it was I wasn't sure

(01:13:10):
if there were I think there were psychologists, not hilf
percent sure. But they went and they interviewed actual criminals
in prison, all of whom had been convicted of like
robbing people, and they showed them pictures of just random
people on the street and they asked the criminals of
these pictures, who would you victimize? And the criminals, well,

(01:13:35):
all they saw was that picture. They knew nothing else,
there's no other information, and they got it, all of them, not.
There wasn't one mistake. All of them got it one
hundred percent correct. All those pictures of people they said
I'd victimized that had all been victimized in violent crime.

Speaker 4 (01:13:53):
And so.

Speaker 3 (01:13:54):
Criminals, bad guys, I think in general, are good at
picking that out. And what they are all so good at.
The corollary to that is they're good at picking out
who not to fight, not to deal with. So you
don't have to walk around like wearing your jiu jitsu
shirt or wearing your TapouT shirt or you know whatever,
the the cool guy stuff is gonna be pipe fitter

(01:14:19):
whatever walking around. You just walk around going, man, I
just rolled two hours with a bunch of you know,
PanAm champs. I just got in the cage and I
sparred with the local you know, the two or three
local mooie Thai guys who win all the local regional championships,
and you do I do that all the time. Were

(01:14:39):
not me. I'm just in general, because I'm too much
of a coward to do that anymore. I protect myself.
But that you you know that, and you're not don't
have to walk around. It just projects out of you
in the way you carry yourself. And so now that
fighting that you've done, and I think John mentioned it,

(01:15:00):
the more you talk to guys. The better the guys
who are fighters, the more they train, the less likely
they've gotten into a fight in the last five, ten, fifteen,
twenty years. And that's because they've got themselves deselected just
by that aura. And I think that's something that I
wish a few more people understood. It's like, hey me,

(01:15:25):
John Kelly, We're not out there getting you ready to
fight because we think you're going to fight tomorrow, or
we would even want you to fight tomorrow. We're pushing
it so in case you do, you're ready, But in reality,
we're making you better. We're making you a more capable person.
We're making you a person who understands that you're more capable,

(01:15:48):
and you get yourself deselected. And I think that's true
for a private citizen, and I think it's true for cops.
You know, if you know, you know, when that guy,
that guy, that that officer, that guy who is truly

(01:16:08):
that badass, when he rolls up on a scene, bad
guys go oh hmm, maybe I'm just gonna chill out
for a second. When he starts saying, hey, what's going
on here? Oh, it comes down. Whereas if that guy
comes out and you just get that ara. This guy,
this guy's a desk jockey. His pushover exactly. It's like, hey, dude,

(01:16:32):
get out of here. Hey you know, can I talk
about this now? Get the fuck out of here or
we're gonna kill you. You know that kind of thing.
And now it goes it goes the other way. And
I think that's a direct thing that comes from being
able to fight. I think you get a little bit
from shooting. I do think that because if you're truly

(01:16:56):
a good shooter and you're performing under that metric where
you know, I can shoot whatever. You know, I'm not
talking about any specific thing, but you know you you're
held to that. You go to a timpering class, you
go to a bat Pranco class or whatever, and you
and you've hit these metrics and you go, okay, that's good.
That comes out. But the problem is that's tied to

(01:17:17):
the gun.

Speaker 1 (01:17:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:17:19):
Yeah, if you and if you have the gun on you,
you you might project a little bit of that confidence.
But if you don't have the gun for whatever reason,
because you're on an airplane or you're traveling somewhere, or
it's not appropriate or it's not appropriate, it's not there's
no justification for lethal force. That confidence now is it
doesn't exist because it's tied to a tool, whereas combatives

(01:17:42):
is tied to you.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
Yes, right, it's you can.

Speaker 3 (01:17:46):
Never be disarmed with it doesn't matter where you go,
go to Disneyland and get wanted, doesn't matter. You're ready
to go. But I and again, and I'll keep coming
to this is, I don't think you're I think you're
less likely to have to go just because bad guys
of all stripes, I don't I don't care, you know,
praying on private citizens interacting with the cops, I think

(01:18:08):
in a military situation. But John could probably speak to
this better. But I mean, really, if you know that
you're going up against I don't know, who's got a
really great reputation, the Girkas. Like if they say, hey,
we're gonna go, we're gonna go fight. There's a bunch
of Gurkhas over there, and you're gonna go toe to

(01:18:28):
toe with them, right, maybe a lot of a lot
of soldiers would be like, can we carpet bomb them first?
You know kind of thing, right, because that you know,
that's probably harder than hey, here's a bunch of I
don't know, I'm not gonna I'm not going to bring
up any nationality because somebody's gonna get ticked at me.
But some some someplace that's not known for producing great

(01:18:50):
fighters or whatever. It's it's different and I and I think, yeah,
it's good. I like knowing I can fight, I like
you all that kind of stuff. But I'd like knowing
that that maybe I've got myself de selected from ever
having to do with this because I don't want to fight.
I don't want to shoot somebody. I don't want to
choke somebody out. I mean, I do on the map
because that's why, but I don't want to do it

(01:19:11):
for real. And I think that's something that people need
to understand about this. It's not just about well I'm
too old, I can't do this, or I've got this
injury or whatever. Okay, okay, but how would you like
to overcome that and never have to deal with in

(01:19:33):
the first place.

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
I think there's also something that people don't consider, and
it's there is an entire suite of skill sets that
for us to be a successful human, we need to
have fighting, not a bad one. To have the ability
to communicate. Yeah, kind of important, kind of important. Reading
body language, reading people, yeah, kind of important. And shooting.

Speaker 3 (01:19:57):
I would argue shooting as well. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:20:00):
One thing too I want to bring up because I
think sometimes people this gets lost in conversation. I need
to kind of be I need to be direct about it.
You don't have to be like me and Diesel and
Craig and Matt at Landfair, Matt Larsen or and or
Eric Kelly Mcha. You don't have to like study things
to the point of where like you got to basically like, wow,

(01:20:23):
you know I'd never trained before. Now this year, I
need to get like five hundred years worth of knowledge
and combin Like, you don't have to be You don't
have to push yourself to study that which you don't
have to make it consume your life, but if you
adopt it to your lifestyle, it's going to have this
byproduct of like positively affecting your life in so many
different ways. Like I teach, so I have to be

(01:20:47):
exponentially better than my students because I could possibly get
a student that will come and push my shit in
if I don't do that shit.

Speaker 1 (01:20:54):
So I have to be.

Speaker 4 (01:20:55):
Dedicated because people expect that from me. I take people's money.
So that's what they do. And I mean I not
only teach on the private sector, but I teach for
the military as well. So as a I'm I have
to be a professional at all times, so I don't
get the option. But as a regular citizen like you guys, look,

(01:21:17):
all you have to do is know the overarching strategy.
You need to speak in a way where you're always
a good guide. Never don't be an asshole. Always be polite,
you know, use use your words as much as possible,
set that verbal boundary. If the verbal boundary isn't there
and the space is available, then you can go ahead
and escalate to a little ready or anything like that.
Present that unian business. If they assault you and you

(01:21:39):
don't know anything that's going on, then yeah, you achieve
the clinch and control them. If you see that there
is a queue where they are going for a weapon,
at that point you can go ahead and escalate and
armed that way, and having that overarching strategy and having
the ability to perform that on demand, you also are
at inherently provided a objective defense for why you did

(01:22:03):
what you did, as opposed to some kind of vague
prescription of like well I was from fear for my life.
So now a prosecutor is going to eat you alive,
Like you're telling me you're incredibly emotionally impulsive, to the
point where if you feel negative emotion, you make people die. Like,
is that what you're trying to tell the court? That's
because that's what fear for my life was. Versus this

(01:22:25):
person attacked me. I told them to stop. I wanted
to leave me alone. They put me on the ground,
They try to get a knife, They try to get
the knife on me. I grabbed my lap and I
defended myself. I want my lawyer. Now, all of a sudden,
that's a very, very big different thing. So the the
idea of developing the skill and not being able to
use it and having the byproduct is you know, when

(01:22:45):
you have the skill, you're less likely to use it,
and when you do, you're also equipped with the second
and third order. As far as like what's the next battle,
which is a legal battle, on all these things, but
as far as one of the things that we wanted
to talk about too, as far as the organizational side
as well, like I want to talk about that too.

(01:23:06):
I think that's really important because I think the objective skill.
People don't necessarily need that need that much. But I
think is the real thing is like how do we
drive culture of the organization?

Speaker 1 (01:23:19):
How do we develop that?

Speaker 4 (01:23:21):
And that's really what's going on as far as like, yes,
cops used to be a lot tougher, they were a
lot like but then you know, like I remember growing up,
like I did not want to mess with NYPD because
they'll probably beat your ass if you mess with them, right,
but you know, the the culture climate has changed and
now something to the effect of what's going on with

(01:23:42):
the leadership is something like we need to go back
to X. Well, there is no going back. We live
in a post Internet world. We live in a post
UFC world, and we need to there's only forward. And
if you got one group of people trying to move
one direction and then the other people move in this direction,
that is the very definition of a collision. So instead

(01:24:05):
of having all your weapons foisted out, pull in security
the way you're supposed to, your fucking facing your your
weapons in and you guys are arguing amongst yourselves as
far as like how to develop this culture, so you
have to roll with it. So like now, what's what's
what's the big leverage as a leader. Authenticity like that

(01:24:27):
is like I'll tell you right now, Yes, the the
the military members, they're not as tough as they used
to be, not farm hands anymore, Snapchat fingers or whatnot, right,
got it. However, when you have a whole generation that's
grown up with perfectly curated information and perfectly presented edited
photos and everything like that, these kids they got a

(01:24:50):
nose for bullshit. They got to those for it. If
you're full of shit, they know it almost immediately. But
if you're authentic and you're honest and everything like that,
like they are a lot more inclined to listen to you.
And it's like they got a high IQ. They got
a lot of access to information. You tell them something,
they're probably gonna google it right in front of your
fucking face. I mean, it's kind of rude, but that's

(01:25:11):
just the way the generation is. So they're gonna call
you on bullshit, they're gonna know you're full of shit,
But if you're authentic and everything like that, they're gonna
be inclined to be follow you more, listen to you, more,
come with come to you with their problems and everything
like that. And also believe in you in terms of
like if you give an order, Hey, I need you
to go there this direction and move and get their asap,

(01:25:32):
they're going to be more inclined to follow you. And
if you present everything, if you give them an honest
experience and you also have a solution to something that
was a let's say, an undesirable outcome and training, then
all of a sudden they're gonna like that's how you're
gonna develop influence. And like, leadership is all about developing influence,
providing and providing more motivation so that way you can

(01:25:55):
direct people to understanding and accomplishing the mission. And that's overall,
I think is is kind of what's missing in a
lot of what's going on in the modern military is
everything is kind of like check the block. And modern
policing too, it's like everything is so like so administrative,
and we forgot that, Like it's about creating this, creating

(01:26:16):
that group identity and driving the culture and creating that influence.
And for me as a as a noncommissioned officer, social
media has been an incredible leverage for me as a
leader because when my troops they see that I'm lifting
a certain weight that shit's objective. I cannot fake that.
When they see me shooting a certain way, I cannot
fake that. When they see me doing training and fighting

(01:26:36):
and everything like that, I cannot fake that. And also
I do these things with them like, hey, loser, come on,
we're gonna go lift, you know, I kind of tease them.
That's my litership style, right, and or hey, we're gonna
go do combatives and everything like that. And I try
to pour into them as much as possible. And I
never say like, hey, look, I can always beat you
guys up. I'm like, look, man, as even though I
got these skills, if you guys get together right now,
it's going to be a lot of problems with me.

(01:26:58):
You guys might beat my ass. So I'm always trying
to keep it real with everybody like that. So, if
you're honest with yourself and your training is giving you
an honest experience, you're gonna have an honest word, You're
gonna have an honest authority, you're gonna have you're gonna
have an honest experience for yourself, and you'll be able
to pass that experience on and that that'll give that
wisdom and that and that's how you and all of

(01:27:19):
a sudden, fuck, man, you're a mentor.

Speaker 1 (01:27:22):
Yeah, authenticity heck yeah. Now, I remember you mentioned something
about and I don't know how much you're willing to discuss,
but there might have been some hurdles or something recently
with some oh yeah so so uh.

Speaker 4 (01:27:46):
So my my job, right is, uh I teach a
pre deployment training, So it's all like uh field tactics
and everything like that for like the squad level, right,
And one of the things we do is that like
we do basically initial eVols, right, Like you're you're required
to know these things. What I'm gonna do is first
day is I'm gonna evaluate on you. I'm gonna I'm
gonna give you a mission, and you're gonna go ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:28:07):
And do that.

Speaker 4 (01:28:08):
And if you it's either you're gonna you're gonna either
gonna be uh basically super an expert, You're gonna be proficient,
you're gonna be familiar, or you'll be unsacked like yeah,
this guy didn't know fuck all right. And then like
so a lot of what I'm seeing is a lot
of unsack. But then you check people's training records and
it's like, huh it says that you've got trained on

(01:28:30):
these things, right, so uh so I really like that
honest experience there, and it's just like okay, cool, like
this is what you need to do. So then then
we'll go and then we'll we'll go and we'll spend
a day right after, like they spent however long they've
been doing getting ready for this course.

Speaker 3 (01:28:47):
They come.

Speaker 4 (01:28:47):
Then we spend a day and we actually train them
on the task that we're gonna evaluate them, like, hey,
this is what we're gonna do. We practice it, and
it's just me basically with the squad. So I just
have them and I've trained them how to train them,
and then then the next day I'm like, all right, cool,
expect roughly around the same missions, roughly around the same task.
It might be some slight variations. It might throw a

(01:29:09):
little bit some curveballs at you. I might introduce some
some elements of time constraints and conditions and everything like that.
And that's just that's just when you're in when you're
a uniform, you're a profession of arms, you're your constant
you have a constant burden of readiness and a constant
condition of constraint.

Speaker 3 (01:29:25):
So that's what.

Speaker 4 (01:29:26):
You just got to be ready, and you're not going
to have enough time, you're not going to have enough money,
or you're not going to have enough people. It's just
what it is. You got to deep you can basically
work around that ship. So anyway, they went from pretty
much almost unsat and then jumped up from familiar to
proficient on almost everything with just one day of training,
one day of dedicated, focused, uninterrupted training and that and

(01:29:48):
that's really what it needs to see. And then it's
also what's good about it is that everyone's training together,
so everyone is progressing together, and everyone's watching it and
everything is like, so, now what happens is this is
the kind of the problem with with with profession of
arms is that a lot of times were we're compartmentalized,

(01:30:10):
we're all in our offices, or we're basically working in
two man teams, like we don't really spend we don't
really get to get out and train together. So when
we have those circumstances where we have to actually get
out all in front of one another, there's a lot
of let's say, unofficial peer evaluations happening. Right, We're all

(01:30:30):
sizing each other up and everything so and if you're
doing that to where like you have the hierarchy, right,
you have that leadership hierarchy going on within that training environment.
Now it's like, all right, what happens here can either
really set me up for success or could diminish me
as a leader, right, And I think that's something that
people they get really comfortable at their desk and they

(01:30:52):
are like, all right, cool, Like let's put you out
on patrol and see how it goes.

Speaker 2 (01:30:56):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:30:56):
Let's say, like your training record said you evaluate on
this shit, right, but you sitting at a desk a
long time? Have you been staying today on this ship?
And like you're making the big bucks because you're supposed
to be able to do these things and the stuff
that the basic dude can do, or the dude can
do that that just graduated basic or technical training or
the academy, right, you should be able to do all

(01:31:16):
those things. But I think the honest to god truth,
if we take people that have been sitting off at office,
and I mean we've been seeing the cameras and the
CCTVs and all this stuff on that we know that
the people that been sitting at a desk, they're not
working on their field skills. They're not working on their
fundamental stuff and that and the things that are required.
So that tells us exactly what is that we have

(01:31:41):
a cultural problem and we have a culture that values
basically not necessarily like they didn't they unconsciously chose administrative
skills as the primary value system within that organization. They
decided they didn't. They they're unconsciously deciding that combative skills

(01:32:01):
are we can work on that a later time, Like
we don't have to be good at that, we don't
have to have the level of on demand performance. And
even though like they're doing that unconsciously, you have to
expose that to leadership in a in a productive way,
in a tactful way. You don't want to make it
seem as accusatory or that like they don't give a shit,

(01:32:21):
because I refuse to believe that no leader gives a
shit about as people. It's just people get caught up
in the hustle and bustle of day to day ops,
and you need to do things that drive that culture.
So that's kind of like a leadership lesson that I've
been passing on to my peers. Or if I get
a young officer. That's something I pass on. As far

(01:32:43):
as like the training events are opportunities for you to
display the things that you want the organization to value
and the things you want them to be good at.
What like we've got a very like as far as
like working system, like we got a really good stick, right,
like administrative punishment, firing. Uh, you know, basically demotion, Like

(01:33:08):
we got a really good stick, but the carrot needs
some work, right, it's like driving providing that incentive, provided
that status provided in the favor. Hey, man, this guy
is the best cop in our organization because he did X,
Y Z right. And we start. Because the things you
reward and the things you expose and the things you
you you basically praise, that's the shit that's going to

(01:33:28):
get repeated. And now you've got people that they join
this organization for the benefits and all kinds of stuff,
and like, man, I can't get promoted. Well, that's because
you're not working within the value system. And the main
lesson of the Salem witch hunts is what the group
is always right, even if they're wrong, So you got
to work within the group or if I can get

(01:33:49):
or disassociate with them. But like you get like again, right, like,
how do we drive? Like we had to decide what
is the best what is the product we want to
produce in terms of a personnel, Now, what's the best
version of that product? And then let's how do we
streamline that process and how do we make sure that
the organization is constantly like pushing each other, creating those

(01:34:10):
circumstances and and creating like a we'll call it positive
peer pressure to where people are actually trying to be
good at those things. And I think the I think
shooting matches, I think combatives, I think like doing things
together and constantly like creating those and then showing up
as a leader. Right Like what like what's to say?
Like you don't get some coaching. You don't go like, hey,

(01:34:32):
I'm gonna take you know these two guys. Hey, we're
gonna go STI hit the range and then like, well,
hey I got this book of drills. You don't even
act like you're there to coach. You're like hel cool,
you guys run it and like, holy shit, man, LT
could fucking burn it down. That month good with that
month could run a gun Like hey, dude, we're gonna
go ahead and work on dt today or combatives or
whatever it is you want to call it, right, And like,
holy shit, man, fucking sars man, he's fucking he's on it. Man,

(01:34:55):
that dude had a gun on me before I even
knew it, right, And then all of a sudden, your
legends to precede you. The people under you, they're like, man,
you know, I want to be like that, you know,
because because like if you're doing that, like you're obviously
going to have respect within the organization. You're gonna have
you're gonna have command influence, you know, with with your
not only with just your your peers and your subortinists,

(01:35:17):
but we're superiors as well.

Speaker 3 (01:35:19):
So people are.

Speaker 4 (01:35:19):
Gonna want to aspire to be that way. And and
this is kind of like what I tell tough guys
a lot, Like it's not it's not kissing ass or
anything like that. Diplomacy is the last step before war.
And if you can't be diplomatic with the fucking people
you're supposed to go to war with, then like you're
not you're just basically bringing on wrath.

Speaker 3 (01:35:40):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:35:40):
So, the the element of training programs and their relationship
to the organizational culture, it's it's so obvious to people
that there. It's just like people are oblivious to it
because they they're they're just trying to check blocks. They're
just trying to make sure that these things happen, and
they're not considering let me think about the byproduct, let

(01:36:04):
me think about the second and third order benefits of this.

Speaker 3 (01:36:08):
And also.

Speaker 4 (01:36:10):
One of the things that we do a lot organization
is that we outsource our management or outsource our talent
or crowdsources. We're not crowdsourcing. There's a lot of like
the best guy to develop a program within the organization
is a member of the organization. So you send those
guys to train or get consultant and like, have them

(01:36:32):
do this, have them find shortfalls, and have them develop
courses of action secondary and primary. You know, you're welcome, right,
primary and secondary courses of action in terms of like solutions. Right,
everybody has to leave the organization better than what they
found it, right, and that's just that doesn't mean get
new curtains of the fucking chief's office or anything like

(01:36:53):
that means that means make people better, right, set them
up for the next mission. Because I want to retire
and I want shit to be peaceful and safe where
I live, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:37:05):
And interesting that you just mentioned that specifically about curtains.
I can think of an agency. There's a state agency that, uh,
there's some turmoil currently wages and other things, and the
agency decided, you know what we're going to do, guys,
we can change your uniforms and badges.

Speaker 3 (01:37:24):
What row?

Speaker 4 (01:37:26):
Yeah, And then like the guys that are running patrol,
they're like, that's a motherfucker who sat at a desk
that yes, yes, because they're looking at their uniforms and
their badges, you know what I mean, and probably busting
each other's balls over that shit. Do it on patrols
like dude, I'm fucking Bill, and what a burger on
my fucking my best man, I don't care about my

(01:37:48):
damn badge and my uniform exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:37:50):
It's about the same level as, hey, guess what we
did really good this quarter pizza party?

Speaker 2 (01:37:55):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:37:56):
Right, I don't care about that, right, oh man.

Speaker 4 (01:38:02):
But yeah, it's like you forget it. If people forget,
like they forget what it's like to kind of be there,
and you have to you got to do that, right,
because that's exactly it keeps you relatable and that's what
keeps you authentic because you also remember, especially if.

Speaker 1 (01:38:18):
You're you're very.

Speaker 4 (01:38:21):
You can be you can be candid about your mistakes
and your vulnerabilities without basically identifying with them, so to speak,
like yeah, man, like I did this and I did that,
you know what I mean? This is what I did
to get better though, right, And yeah, I think I
think people believe that the sore bordinates they want they

(01:38:41):
want them to be perfection or present us perfect and
everything like that. If you present as professional but honest
and authentic, that chick is gonna go so way farther
than most people.

Speaker 1 (01:38:52):
Absolutely, man, that last part that could be an episode
by itself. Totally, Yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (01:39:00):
Thought that's what we're talking about, Like, you know, cop life,
and you know what I mean, Yeah, lacency.

Speaker 1 (01:39:05):
Really well, we're at an hour and forty minutes and
Tom's back. Here you go. You had to make a
couple of drinks.

Speaker 3 (01:39:18):
Here, all wrong?

Speaker 1 (01:39:20):
All right? Well, I think maybe now would be a
good time then, I guess to get our final thoughts
and plugs awesome discussion. I'm going to say my favorite
thing that I say at the end of every episode,
and that's you as the listener or the viewer. Make
sure you are supporting those sources that you found to
be beneficial. If you like what these guys said, find

(01:39:43):
them on social media. You need to give them likes,
You need to give them follows when they're sharing stuff
that really helps you understand something better, make sure that
there's a share that goes with primary secondary stuff as well.
But see here Tom final thoughts, plugs anything like that.
Coughs perhaps muted coughs.

Speaker 2 (01:40:05):
Yes, No, I I don't think we touched on half
of what we could have touched on. You know, John
brought up so many good points. Uh, yeah, I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:40:19):
I don't know where to go there.

Speaker 2 (01:40:21):
I had, I had some different thoughts that we've talked
about prior that. Like I said, I think we could
prove this is such a such a deep topic.

Speaker 1 (01:40:33):
Yeah, I got there.

Speaker 2 (01:40:34):
Really nothing else on that.

Speaker 1 (01:40:36):
And if if people want us to do a mixology episode,
we can do that. It was interesting. What about the
h Where can people find you? Uh?

Speaker 2 (01:40:47):
So I own Darkstargear dot com, so dark star Gear
at dark Start Year for everything. Yeah, it's we're out there.

Speaker 1 (01:40:58):
Any new products maybe like stuff for revolvers and.

Speaker 2 (01:41:06):
Yeah, so so Cecil and I, uh Cecil some years
ago because we both work at such a rapid pace,
and yeah, we have the immediate Action Carrier is Cecil's
idea and I'm gonna take a moment to describe it.
So so we're we're figuring out like how to name
it and whatever. And I I'm just like, what about

(01:41:27):
the immediate action carrier. He's like, okay, what about the
immediate action carrier? Okay, Like, well, yeah, I see immediate
action like kind of like immediate action combatives. Oh yeah, yeah,
but it was it was just one of those things
like it just worked.

Speaker 3 (01:41:47):
But no, it's yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:41:50):
So so we have I with all the different Revolver
stuff we've been messing around with. It's it's kind of
a little disingenuous because I don't carry my J Frame
my K frame as much. They're really awesome K frame
that Cecil, I know, is really jealous of Jeff Blueman
worked on. I just released the K Frame Apollo. No,

(01:42:14):
We've got a lot of a lot of neat little
things coming along for Revolver stuff to kind of an
underserved market. And yeah, I kind of kind of parallels
like in you know, in the same thing we talked
about before, Like, you know, nobody has to have you know,
if you if you know you can do what you
can do with a thing you don't need to have.

(01:42:36):
You know, the you don't need your you know, twenty
one round clock bags in the next three hundred and whatever.
You know, you can carry a five shot revolvers and
you know a couple of reloads or whatever and be okay.
A lot of people have kind of passed that market
by and it hasn't received the same benefit as you know,
the semi auto market has so kind of found myself

(01:42:59):
suckered when way or another into you know, making some
what I think is pretty cool stuff. We have the
speech ship carrier that's coming out soon. Came ram Apollo
is a bit it took a little longer and should
have and then you know the meaning action carriers forty
four mags should be out soon. Youah, thirty eight, fifty seven, three,
twenty seven, thirty two, a few others.

Speaker 1 (01:43:23):
Forty five, seventy or three or eight, because I could
definitely see that.

Speaker 3 (01:43:26):
For at Tom's munificent free time.

Speaker 1 (01:43:35):
Someone three four, five, six more years.

Speaker 3 (01:43:39):
Now I'm pushing them.

Speaker 4 (01:43:44):
I don't even.

Speaker 3 (01:43:47):
Thirty we'll get it. We'll get it birdy cow rifle
forty five seventy. But we got to hit the other
stuff first and get that definitely before the mag and
forty five cole and they will appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, cool.

Speaker 1 (01:44:07):
Seeze.

Speaker 3 (01:44:09):
Well, fortunately this time I actually managed to talk about
the I C carrier. That's a good thing for for
a change. So my website immediate action I a combatives
dot com or my new one for more local stuff,
crazy jiu jitsu anthem. I just saw the I just

(01:44:30):
saw the template, or not the template, but the base
today and as soon as I have my schedule built,
the website will be up. So you're coming to Phoenix
and you're coming anywhere to travel, you want to do
some jiu jitsu, look at that website and I'll be
putting putting up a new new like Instagram Facebook page

(01:44:52):
just for that, which will be very jiu jitsu centric,
you know, because that's what it is, grazy jiu jitsu anthem.
But I combatis I'm a basic one, you know. I
try to put blog stuff up, you know, articles and
videos and stuff. I got about eight videos in the can.
That's I'll start lifting putting up here, just you know,

(01:45:12):
a little instructionals, you know, sprinkle them out so and
if you and for seminars, you can check my website.
Usually try to keep those posted. I actually got an
I got a seminar coming up in outside Detroit in October,
and I'm gonna be posting that information here by the
end of this week. Cool, that's a revolver centric one.

(01:45:34):
That's a one day revolver class and a one day
stand up clinch class. So that'll be really fun. Cool
you with on that one or is that just what's that?

Speaker 2 (01:45:45):
Are you with somebody on that one?

Speaker 3 (01:45:47):
Or is that just see that's just me, that's just me. Yeah,
it's fun. Teaching a full revolver class. That's going to
be you know, a blast. I don't. I don't do
a ton of live fire. I just did want a
couple a month ago here locally. Uh yeah, a month
ago locally. But I like doing them, especially when they're

(01:46:07):
either close quarter stuff or revolver center. I don't know,
because there's plenty of guys. There's so much more better
guys out out there at teaching shooting stuff, you know,
your standard shooting stuff. You know, go see Tim Herron
go see Scott Jedlinsky, Go see Kyle Lamb, go see
Tom Gibbons for that stuff. And if you want to
know how to fight when the guy's you know, on

(01:46:29):
top of you, I think I can teach that pretty well.
And then that revolver stuff. I think I'm okay at
teaching revolver stuff too.

Speaker 1 (01:46:37):
Cool.

Speaker 4 (01:46:39):
John, Yeah, I'm pretty easy to find.

Speaker 3 (01:46:42):
Uh, you could look.

Speaker 4 (01:46:43):
Just do a google John Valentine combatives and I should
pop up. My main thing is the Combative Summit. I'm
very original with the name and the website. It's combatives
summit dot com. So if you guys want to kind
of get eyes on and get hands on experience working

(01:47:07):
with various instructors and seeing guys of I don't know.
I think what it's like five hundred years of combined
experience all over one weekend. Understanding how to drive fire
for performance, how to speak with an impact date, understanding
the clinch and everything involved, bare and knuckle fighting, medical,

(01:47:28):
all these things come out to the Combative Summit. I
think just the level of conversation is worth the price
of the mansion alone. And you sign up, you get
about one hundred and fifty dollars worth of free swag.
You need to get a free holster from Tennecore, free
fanny pack from Vertex, swag, all kinds of shit. So badass.
Event I know it's biased to say that, but I

(01:47:51):
had an idea of how good it was going to be,
and it just it's way better than what I thought
it was going to be.

Speaker 1 (01:47:56):
So so with that mind, who is it? Who is it?
Folks on? Who's the demographic?

Speaker 4 (01:48:01):
It's for so pretty much unless you master of all
the crafts, anybody can benefit from it. Pretty much. It
is open to anyone and everyone, and even if you
feel like you're good at these things, you still will
get a lot. Let's say, let's say you're trying to
cross the rubicon and you're going from practitioner to mentor

(01:48:22):
now you've got people with the largest bodies of work
that are across the globe like Kelly McCann, Craig Douglas,
Matt Larson, Cecil Birch Uh. You know not guys have
just been practicing for life.

Speaker 3 (01:48:36):
Runner.

Speaker 4 (01:48:36):
You guys have been like on the road instructing serious
people for a long time. So just having that insight
and that wisdom alone, I think is you know, way
worth it. Then you also have all these different products
to look at and all these different approaches as well.
So even if you have a product, then you might

(01:48:59):
see something and make you question something or really just
refine what you've been doing and save your time to
where you're actually providing something that the people need, or
maybe you're maybe miss something and now it's like, oh,
thank thank god I missed I got that information. So yeah,
So the Combative Summit is for everybody. It's geared towards

(01:49:21):
that person who is just like they just bought a
gun and they just want to know, like what does
it look like to get into the soul and like
how can I how can I streamline the process of
getting training and wisdom from all these instructors, because that's
really what this business is. Just like you know, for
me to go and train with all those people like
easily cost me and I don't know, like fifteen twenty thousand.

Speaker 1 (01:49:43):
Dollars oh yeah, oh yeah definitely and for plus the time.

Speaker 3 (01:49:47):
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:49:47):
So to get everybody in one weekend for less than
a grand, well worth the money.

Speaker 1 (01:49:53):
Right yeah. And one of the things you said that
I completely identify with as someone who put together a
summit type thing with multiple instructors. The lectures are priceless.
Lectures are so good and yeah, if you don't want
to get your hands dirty, show up for the lectures
because they can be so so valuable. And for me

(01:50:14):
going to whatever class, even going to Darcy for the
counter terrorism school, the lectures are so act full of
such great information. I've even shown up just a I
was over and I was in Arkansas for unrelated training.
Knew that there was a counter terrorism school going in

(01:50:34):
a class going on, and I contacted Rich and said, Hey,
I'm in town. Can I just show up just to
listen to this lecture? Yeah? Sure, and just fantastic, fantastic info.

Speaker 4 (01:50:46):
Yeah, the insight wisdom, Like you just are really good
insight and really good wisdom. Right, But so yeah, there's that.
I also like, I'll I have a shingle out I
teach from time to time. I don't really market or
advertise myself. People usually contact me if you guys want
to want me to run. I just did a two

(01:51:06):
day course out in Colorado a couple of weeks ago.
So so yeah, if you guys want to train, easy
to find, easy to get ahold of I'm at John
v underscore actual all social media cool.

Speaker 1 (01:51:22):
Well as per the norm excellent discussion. Thanks for your
guys' input, your time, your insights. Always great to get
people like this together. Except for Tom and I.

Speaker 2 (01:51:34):
Apologize I could not get if I couldn't train and
put a camera.

Speaker 1 (01:51:40):
Yeah, that's great, Tom. Thanks, that's why we can't have
nice things. Big thank you to the viewers, the listeners,
and also big thank you to the sponsors Lucky Gunner,
Kilster Walther. Lastly, the patron subscribers or the network Surprise
Network Support subscribers on the on the forum. If you

(01:52:03):
like what we're doing, head over to the forum primary
secondary dot com slash form. There is a banner that
says network Support. From there, you can help support the network.
You get access to behind the scenes these matter of fact,
you're actually getting an invite to the stream yard behind
the scenes thing where there's a whole chat going on.
You might not necessarily be on the on the episode

(01:52:25):
or part of the discussion. It's happened. I pulled people in,
especially depending on who it is and what their background is.
But what that winds up doing is it helps it
helps me out primary and secondary does have a lot
of resources, and everything costs time, money, and effort. But
I love putting this stuff together, love doing this, love

(01:52:45):
getting like minded people together to share their insights, to
share their lessons because you know, just this, this community
has such awesome, awesome people with some wonderful experiences, and
I just love getting everything together like this. So that
is all I think. I will now kill the feed.

(01:53:08):
I it's ten o'clock my time, a little later than normal.
Usually these start a little earlier, but I'm gonna go
make sure everyone's in bed and then i'll probably play
video games tonight. So I think that's all right, So
talk to you guys later.

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P&S ModCast 427 - Gaining Confidence in Combatives

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}P&S ModCast 427 - Gaining Confidence in Combatives