P&S ModCast 430 - Modernization of Revolvers - Primary & Secondary Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
And for some reason, my headphones are beeping at me.
They get self destruct. What can you do?

Speaker 2 (00:13):
I have a fan going in the background. Is that
sound coming through? Do I need to do something about that?

Speaker 3 (00:18):
No?

Speaker 1 (00:19):
You sound fine.

Speaker 4 (00:19):
You're a little quiet at first.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Well, I can always speak up. I've got a voice.

Speaker 4 (00:26):
Sounds good.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Ill.

Speaker 5 (00:28):
I have a fan going in the background, and we.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
Have fans watching right now, but they're they're mostly quiet,
all right. Yeah, So with that mind, heyone, welcome to podcast.
The episode number is four thirty, four hundred and thirty episodes.

Speaker 5 (00:49):
Geez.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
The topic I had in mind for today is the
modernization of revolvers. Now, we have had many episodes talking
about revolvers. I thought, well, how fun would it be
to talk about how things have changed to a point,
how we can modernize them. We have a couple guys
here that might know something about that. Additionally, what about
all the accessories, what about all the things? How things

(01:13):
have changed just in concealment. So it's just fun to
talk about about this stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:20):
Enjoy it.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
So the modernization of revolvers. Today's episode or today's date
is June thirteenth, twenty twenty five. Wait again, thirteenth it
is Friday the thirteenth.

Speaker 4 (01:36):
Indeed it is because yeah, because it's Friday the thirteenth,
and I know YouTube is going to kill this stream anyway.
I'll have you know. I have a pile of like
loose ammos sitting in the other room that I took
out of all of the guns I have sitting all
over here.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, So with that in mind, if you are watching
live and everything dies, it's because we're playing with guns
and face or not. Facebook YouTube doesn't like it, don't worry.
This will be reposted afterwards. If you happen to be
a Patreon subscriber that hey, Nate's there too. If you
happen to be a Patreon subscriber at the network support

(02:15):
level two, then you get to watch these live behind
the scenes on stream yard and so those don't get cut.
Those we keep on talking even after YouTube kills us.
So you might want to consider that as an option.
Before we get into backgrounds, before we get the meat
and potatoes of this, I'm going to say my absolute
favorite thing to say, and that is you as the listener,

(02:36):
You as the viewer, you know you should probably support
those sources that you found to be beneficial. What I
mean by that is there are so many great sources
of information out there, and there are some not so
great sources. There are some huge channels, there's some small channels. YouTube, Facebook, Instagram.
All these different sources have theselryth, and the algorithms don't

(03:01):
necessarily work in the favor of content that's firearms related,
that might be more educated. That's where you, the viewer
of the listener, comes in and you can help support
them by providing likes, shares, subscriptions. So when these guys
are talking, pay attention to who they represent, who they are,
and where they can be found, because there's a possibility

(03:22):
you might be listening to this and go, oh, I
want to send a revolver to Scott. Now what he
just said. I really like this, and you're going to
want to follow these guys on social media. Same with Ryan.
I don't know his grips, Yeah, I don't know. Yeah,

(03:43):
So yeah, make sure you're supporting those sources that you
found to be beneficial. It doesn't have to be primary
and secondary. It doesn't have to be these guys. But
if you have found channels, podcasts, or whatever, make sure
you're given those likes because those likes really are valuable.
Same with the shares and the subscriptions. Oh, my background
is in law enforcement. Still in law enforcement. I don't

(04:03):
know why it's been over a long long time. Started
in ninety eight, but that's beside the point. So when
I started, though, revolvers really faded away.

Speaker 4 (04:15):
We were all on glocks.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
At that time, at least the main the main, the
main forces. Still there were officers, there were detectives, they
were command staff that work there in the revolvers, and.

Speaker 4 (04:27):
It was kind of cute.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
And now that I look back on it, I kind
of wish I talked to him more about their guns,
because that's that's a viable tool in my in my
youth disregarding the revolver was Yep, I did that.

Speaker 4 (04:45):
I will be the.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
First to admit it, and I've since learned and wanted
to appreciate them.

Speaker 4 (04:50):
So let's go with let's see here.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
I think Nate, I think you've been here more than
anyone else then probably Dave Nate background all that kind
of stuff.

Speaker 6 (05:02):
Hey, it's been a while, though, I feel like since
I had gone on, schedules just aligned nicely. My wife
is with our girls on a little bit of a trip,
so I'm doing the bachelor thing tonight.

Speaker 4 (05:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (05:18):
I don't like to be long here because I consider
myself more of a student and a consumer of information.
Sometimes I can ask a question that's moderately interesting. But
as far as revolvers specifically, the most recent thing I
did was finish a ECQC class with Craig Douglas, primarily

(05:40):
shooting a four thirty two UC so excellent class. I
know it's that's not the topic. I highly recommend that,
but it is. And being a revolver was was eye opening.
Didn't it didn't you know, destroy my you know, worldview
about oh well, now I can't carry a revolver. If
if anything, it reinforced certain advantages of the revolver. And anyway,

(06:05):
maybe we'll get into it, maybe not. But love the
revolvers for what they are. You know, they're not the
end all be all, but they can be very useful
for a lot of people in a lot of situations.
And you know, I personally find a use for them
in many cases.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
So and if you don't mind, yeah, keep that in
the back of your mind because I'd like to discuss
that because so many people do say, well, unless it
as a magazine. I'm not caring it. Well, it's twenty
twenty five. There's still place for these and so hope, yeah.

Speaker 4 (06:39):
Dave, Well, like, how's my audio by the way, Oh fine, good, Okay.
I wasn't sure if I was too far away from
the mic. So like Matt, law enforcement just not as long.
Matt's got a few years on me. So coming into guns,
I acquired I worked at a gun shop, ran a range,

(07:02):
things like that, and I acquired over time a few revolvers,
but they were kind of just they were just kind
of toys. I dismissed them, like, eh, they're revolvers, their
old technology, that kind of thing. But they're fun to shoot.
And like, at one point I had a coon in
which is like it's a mishmash of a couple different designs.
That's a semi auto three fifty seven mag pistol because

(07:25):
I was like, I was like, I like shooting three
fifty seven, but I want to try in a semi auto.
So with the cop thing, I for the first couple
of years I carried a car CM nine as a backup,
which is one of those teeny tiny little semi autos.
I have it sitting on a shelf over there, but

(07:45):
it's loaded, so I'm going to unload it before I
bring it on the stream. But I carried that and
then I had this like realization, and I want to
say that I don't think anything we're discussing here is new.
Where a lot of this is rehashing of old ideas
or it's or it's it's it's kind of optimizing efficiency,

(08:10):
optimizing design things like that. So I truly don't think
any of the stuff that we're talking about is new.
Probably the newest thing we'll talk about is dots.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
And and I was gonna say Ryan stuff, Well.

Speaker 4 (08:21):
Well yeah, but but what I'm talking about is Ryan's
very much and he and I have talked extensively. It's
and and you know, he can be a much better
salesperson for himself than I can. But he's he's taking
what did exist and he's making it modern and better,
so increasing the efficiency of the designs that kind of stuff.
So but anyway back to so I carried that car

(08:43):
CM nine and the thing is with a little gun
like that, the operating window, with the size of the
with the with the size physical size of the slide
as it moves, the length of the rounds. A CM
nine is a super tiny nine million pistol, and you
have such a small window of operability with a gun

(09:06):
like that that if you put it out without support
out in the world at a bad angle, with a
bad grip, that kind of stuff, you can have some
very significant issues like you get one bang, if you
get one bang, if you pushed out a battery, which
we can talk about that too. But I wised up
and I was like, what am I carrying a backup for? Well,

(09:27):
I'm carrying a backup in case I have a gun grab.
I'm not carrying a backup because I need a bunch
of extra rounds of ammunition. Because I'm not carrying a
backup that's in the same caliber as my primary duty pistol,
which was a forty five at the time. It said
nine now, but I'm aside from boar diameter being two thousand,
it's different. It's not the same kind of ammunition. I

(09:50):
have a backup and I carry it offside because if
someone puts their hands on my gun, I'm going to
clamp down on the gun with my primory hand and
then depending on what position I'm in, I'm either going
to get something sharp or something that goes bang out,
and I'm going to apply it to the person's face
who's grabbing my gun and say stop it along with

(10:12):
a bang or stab until they decide it's a bad idea.
But the issue with that is if you do this,
you can push some of auto out of battery. And
that kind of pushed me just shy ten years ago
now into really seriously looking into revolvers, and the last
I don't know year or so, it's really accelerated into

(10:38):
a lot of degeneracy. And I've talked way too long,
so really I'll give off the floor.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
Scott Scott van Dorsten, owner gunsmith Van Doorston Custom Firearms.
Revolvers is one of my primary and favorite some works
to do. I've got several different packages I offer. I'm
developing other packages as well. It's, uh, you know what

(11:11):
Day was saying. How it's funny because a lot of
what I see as being modernized as revolvers is just
bringing back a lot of the old designs and the
old concepts, you know, bobbying the hammers and short barrels,

(11:31):
smaller grips, even the design. I mean, Ryan will have
his chance to tell you, but I mean, you know
the Spiegel grip. I mean it's a classic, you know,
it's it's one of those old ones that it's says
and people bring it back because they actually work, you know,
and that's and that's the wonderful thing about it. It's
so and then you start to see a lot of

(11:54):
the You're starting to see more barrels that have an
adaptation to them so you can put a light on it.
You see companies that are making laser lights that will
just clamp to an existing gun, whether it's got a
a rail or not. You know, they have one that
will fit it. And then you have companies making aftermarket

(12:16):
site replacements that will provide a platform for your red
dot optics and stuff like that. And then I think
one of the ones that we need to be showing
off a little more is the fiber optic front sites
because when you start running a fiber optic front site,

(12:38):
I mean, it's essentially a red dot it is. It's
no different.

Speaker 4 (12:44):
So, and you forgot to mention TV Star.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yes, yes, I was on a short lived TV series
American Guns on Discovery Channel the twenty tens through twenty twelves.
Is when we were doing that. So we're probably going
to have a show coming up relating to as kind
of stuff. I got lots of good stories and I
don't hold back.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
And working on getting an episode where we can talk
about this that kind of stuff at length with in chat.
Someone already mentioned Caleb. Yeah, Caleb's aware of this. Unfortunately
he couldn't make it, but everyone's favorite little Caleb. Ryan.

Speaker 5 (13:29):
Hey, my name is Ryan Henry. I'm the president of
Amry Forge. Is my mic okay? Or does it sound
like I'm underwater or anything?

Speaker 1 (13:36):
Get a little bit underwater but not too bad.

Speaker 3 (13:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (13:39):
Oh, I don't know what it is.

Speaker 5 (13:41):
It's technology going on with like stream Yard and my
head bet or whatever. But so we've been making revolver
grips and and some other kind of things and it's
just kind of branched out and I've carried a revolver
for you know, about a decade now. I don't have
any military law enforcement stuff, but I just always have

(14:04):
a gun on me and and think everybody should as well.
So a jframe with like a barami or now like
what we're doing with our handry hook. That's kind of
been a go to whether it's for like thumbing through
the woods or you know, working in a basement or
you know, hay in a field like whatever. It's just
a very easy way to always have something on you,

(14:27):
whether it's a primary or a secondary, it's just that
you know, always be armed. That rule one type of
a gun. So we've been you know, learning a lot.
People send us stuff all the time that we're able
to learn from, and it's just been a really fun
journey for me and our family as well.

Speaker 4 (14:47):
And specifically the hooks.

Speaker 1 (14:49):
Eventually, I very much want to discuss those because it
does seem like there's a lot of misconceptions and a
lot of people have some ideas that are setting stone
for themselves which they have difficulty understanding. You know, there's
a time and a pass where that works, it doesn't.

Speaker 5 (15:04):
I mean, yeah, I mean it's uh, I've been hearing
it for like twelve years. I've I've only shut my
nuts off like three times, like, yeah, that's it. It's
it's easy now, Yeah, No, it's actually, I mean it's
a it's a you know, for me, I am very
comfortable hearing with a hook without a holster and and

(15:26):
have done it quite safely in a variety of conditions.
And that's whether it's like running or wrestling, or like
I said, climate under a basement for all spaces, climbing trees,
just like whatever the heck it is. I don't know
a foon a boat, so it's just it's been fine.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
And it's just like what Scott and Dave said, these
are based on some older designs hundred percent.

Speaker 5 (15:51):
Yeah, guys have been doing this for as long as
done has been around. I mean I have a book
on the Founder's Second Amendment and there was a dude
that had like six guns on them and none of
those were in holstons, like I mean, he's just putting
them in any and looking cranny on his body. So
I mean, yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, yeah, so that's me cool.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
And lastly though, we might actually have someone stoke pop in,
but we have Tom.

Speaker 7 (16:19):
Yes, Tom Russell own the American Firearms Academy, very good
friends with Scott van Dorsten. They've worked with him quite
a bit on some collaborative efforts. I bought my first
nineteen eleven and nineteen seventy eight, met Colonel Cooper and
began actually began working with him in ninety five and

(16:43):
taught with him out at Gunsight going through two thousand
and received my Master Firearm certification from him at that time,
and excuse me, developed a wonderful friendship with him, huntred
with him in Africa and his last hunting trip over
there on a couple of his rifles. I bought my
first revolver in eighty three, a Smith Wesson Model six

(17:05):
twenty nine to four inch that I still have. I
need to send it up to Scott that wonderful action
job he currently has for my revolvers right now. So
I figured that was enough at one time, That's right.

Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (17:19):
I started carrying a revolver as a backup in ninety
seven or ninety eight little jyframe and Loua Lessi Ankle Holster,
and have just consistently followed that practice, collaborated with Scott
on his constant companion, and we're both in serious agreement

(17:43):
with regard to the fiber optic front site. It gives you,
it's the I am a true believer in focusing on
the front site, and it gives it the brightest thing
in front of you, So it's what you're going to
be looking at if you're pressing the trigger. Going to
be working perhaps, well, we've got to. We're scheduling a

(18:05):
class with Milt Sparks this probably next May, and a
class out at the NRA Quittington Center. I'll have one
here in North Texas in the fall of revolver class
and then probably work to develop something out of the
Whittington Center the first part of this next year as well.

(18:26):
I teach the Jeff Cooper General Rifle class out there
in a general pistol class.

Speaker 4 (18:31):
Cool so good stuff.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
Well, so both of you brought up fiber optics, and man,
am I a fan. I'm a fan on fiber optics,
on on semi auto's and on revolvers. And I remember
it had it been ten years ago, talking to like
Steve Fisher saying ignore everyone saying that they're going to break,

(18:59):
constantly use them. If they do break, you just replace it.
It's not that big of a deal. But what a
great it's I'm going I want to use the word
advantage because I kind of find it is an advantage
because it does seem to it does seem to work
so well. But not only do we have that, but
then we also have red dots nowadays. But yeah, if

(19:19):
you're if you're maintaining that low profile red dot not
might not work that well, Dave, I know you are
such a proponent of red dots on everything. Okay, maybe
not pocket guns.

Speaker 4 (19:33):
So hold on, hold on. There was one gun I
hadn't unloaded, the one on you, the one on me.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
Yes, yeah, so oh is that Yeah, that's your twelve.

Speaker 4 (19:48):
Yeah, this is my twelve I post. I absolutely love
this gun, absolutely love it. But uh it's got uh,
it's got some fun stuff from Ryan on it, which
has allowed me to essentially hook it to whatever happened
to be wearing as long as I'm wearing something with
a waste. And it's it's light enough that instead of
carrying like a seal J I can carry this. And

(20:08):
I got an extra round and it's actually way more shootable.
But this gun, I don't. I just have the standard
gutter and front sight is just it's just painted. So
this one no red dot, and that's a that's a
profile convenience. I can live with this thing. But if
I put on if I put on a gun that's

(20:28):
any bigger. Yeah, absolutely, let's go for a dot.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
And and that's your nineteen.

Speaker 4 (20:35):
Yeah, this is the nineteen carry comp Yeah. So one
of the things that that has been seen kind of
across the board is when it comes to I would
just talk about law enforcement because that's in my wheelhouse
law enforcement qualifications. When we take away when we take

(20:57):
away the pretty typical three planes of sight and the
three planes of site being the rear sit, the front site,
and then your target. So if we take away the
figuring out what to look at at a given distance,
because I mean I've preached the hard front site focus,
it's been preached to me. That's not necessarily what happens
all the time. That's not what we're talking about here though.

(21:18):
But so if we take those three planes away and
we say, look the target, and put the TV between
you and the target and the red dots where the
bullet goes, all of a sudden, people who aren't gun
people tend to get much much better qualification scores. And
from that perspective, I'm a very very big proponent of
putting dots on things. But with that, yeah, I mean,

(21:42):
this is taller and bigger than if it had the
factory adjustable sight. I mean, it weighs half an ounce
more when you take the factory site assembly off and
you put this and the dot on the area the
gun weighs half an ounced more. It's a thirty four
ounce gun. That part doesn't matter, but it does make
the profile a little bigger. So yeah, from the profile perspective, absolutely,

(22:07):
there's an argument there. Hey, if you don't want the
extra height in the gun, then yeah, maybe a red
dot's not a great idea. But I'm gonna very much
recommend for people with aging eyes. For people to have
difficulty with figuring out how to focus on a front site,
the red dot makes that makes that process much easier.

(22:28):
But there's also the caveat of if your presentation isn't good,
if your mechanics aren't good, when you present that firearm
to the target, you're going to be searching for the dote.
So there's there's some training that needs to be brought
in with that in order to take advantage of the
extras that the red dot offers. So there's you know,

(22:49):
there's give and take with everything. And you know red dots. Uh,
when was when was the let's see task goes and
aim point one thousand in the late eighties, I want
to say, when I was just a kid. We're really
you know, guys in competition, and as everyone knows that competition,

(23:11):
shooting will get you killed in the streets, right because
shooting fast and accurately, especially the while moving is theo's
are terrible skills to have. But I mean it's not
a new thing. This stuff has been around for forty
years now. The thing is this dot that weighs three
quarters of an ounce, that has a teeny tiny little
battery that can stay on for like you know, a

(23:34):
battery is like seventy five cents, so replace it yearly,
but it'll run for like four years on the medium setting.
So this compared to something that had a battery life
measured just in a few hours. Yeah, the technology is
way better. It's smaller, it's more ruggedized, all that kind
of stuff. But the principle behind it is still look

(23:55):
at the target. Put the TV in front of the target.
Where the dot goes, the bull goes.

Speaker 7 (24:01):
You had some very good points there, David, the uh,
you know, being fresh more helpful for the novice uh
and those with I related problems. In my classes, I've got,
of course, many people, many people coming with dots. Now
I don't see it, uh, providing the really experienced shooters

(24:25):
with any greater advantage than if they're using iron sights.
But that's an experienced shooter. But with those who are
having these ironlated problems, man, it is a godsend we've had.
I can take a couple right off the top of
my head who were just not able to lock in
on the front site. They put the dot on their

(24:48):
gun and everything came right back together again. So from that,
you know, from that perspective, it's not just a nice
thing to have it, it can really be and essential.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
And for a lot of people, revolvers, the revolvers they're
caring are, they're the pocket guns. They need to be
those smaller, those smaller options. And then we can go
back into the discussion of those fiber optics, which, if
you have an experienced shooter, your presentation is going to
be lining up everything where you don't need to look
at target, front site site, front site, okay, everything even

(25:28):
light on on on either side of the front side,
and everything's okay. Now now press Now those of us
that have shot a bit that presentation, we're already, we're
already good to go, and that fiber optic is just
that is the icing on the cake. Just that much
more visible and easier to shoot.

Speaker 6 (25:46):
And Matt I think going to maybe this is kind
of zooming back out and getting a little bit more
general really quick. But it dovetails really well. And this
idea of you know, sighting systems. The topic of the
show tonight is modernization of revolvers, and so maybe an
example that would make a little bit more sense to

(26:07):
some people watching, how many of us sent a glock
to Ati, you know, ten or fifteen years ago, several
little to spend a fair bit of money on features
that are literally offered from the factory now. And by
that I mean things like just we'll use glock as

(26:29):
an example, because it's a it's a pretty good, one,
very basic gun. When it first came out. You know,
we're talking plastic sites, blocky slide, you know, basic, nothing
really special to it. And people are like, hey, I
like this gun. I want to put some forward cocking
serrations on it. I want to put a match barrel
in it. I want to put some some steel sites

(26:51):
of some sort, whether it's a fiber, whether it's a
you know, Trigua con hds, and then later on the
cuts for a red dot, you know, controlling the RiPP
differently to take the finger grooves off a flared magazine. Well,
I mean you think about the new you know, the
glock forty seven mos as it comes right now. You know,
has a tape or nose, It has a has a

(27:13):
mag well, it has an AMBI c has Miami mag release,
It has a red dot cut, It has a lot
of these things that you might have paid Matt what
four or five hundred dollars to a couple more than
that more than that do that custom work. And so
I think a lot of times, you know, not all
of those things are you know, one hundred percent translated
to the revolvers. You know, I don't usually press check

(27:34):
my uh my Model sixty four with my forward cocking serrations.

Speaker 4 (27:39):
Not always sometimes.

Speaker 6 (27:41):
Only when i'm you know, on a movie. You know,
you got to get the actor's face right up there
and show that press check. But my point is, you know,
many people have said this, we're really in the golden
age of of you know, service weapons period, whether it's
Semi auto's revolvers, rifles, same thing with ars back in
the day, versus what you can at now and the
features that are available. No, I mean, I think of

(28:03):
a few things like, you know, a pin front site
which or a dovetailed front site which. Good on Smith
doing the UC lines and starting to come out with
you know, more jframes with easily replaceable sites versus you know,
years ago and still still this day. You know, if
I want to put a new front sight on this,

(28:24):
I mean that that's gonna be that's going to be
work of a gunsmith because I'm not good at that,
and I would watch it.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
But that's where Scott comes in.

Speaker 6 (28:30):
Yeah, you'd be cutting a dovetail, you'd be machining a
groove for a fiber or something like that. You know,
things like the new grips. You know, I guess Ryan's here,
so I've gotta I gotta plug those the pine cone
grip here. If you can get a set of grips
with that on it, highly recommended.

Speaker 4 (28:48):
There are those frame grips.

Speaker 6 (28:49):
What yeah, Christmas Specialist. They're my absolute favorite K frame grips.
I'm going to be shooting Caleb's Revolve or Degenerate test
with a buddy tomorrow with these. So I think of
a few other modernization things. You know, Da've talked about,
things like red dots on them, talk about different materials,

(29:13):
either you know Smith going to a scandium, or something
that I think is particularly interesting is something like the LCR.
As far as modernization, something that was built from the
ground up to be mass produced, to use polymers, to
use mim to use things like that from the ground
up as part of the design. And so I think

(29:35):
when we say modernization of revolvers, it can be the
materials that are being used. You know, the whole trigger
camp system in this gun, which I really like, the
way that they're built, the features that are offered. I
think I already mentioned the materials they're made out of, sites, grips,
you know, all of those things. I think all encompass

(29:57):
this idea of modernization of revolver, you know, built in
you know, I've got to I've got to show my
model nineteen carry comp because because Dave touched me into one.
But you're welcome, you know, built you know, built in,
built in compensators for for people that want something like that.
And you know, and I agree one hundred percent, a

(30:18):
lot of these things were items that were kind of
forgot a little bit or rediscovered by people. And once again,
they don't necessarily need to be to fit the kind
of the stereotypical look of modern I mean, you don't.
You don't have to have a revolver version of the
role in special you can. But I think when we
say modernization, it encompasses a lot more than just the

(30:41):
gadgets that we bolt on them. But to me, modernization
means more of the manufacturing, the materials just it kind
of reflects the you know, the idea of the new
consumer where they want to buy something and just kind
of have it the way that they that they want it,
and they don't want to do what people were doing
back in you know, the seventies and the eighties, you know,

(31:03):
buying a stock cold nineteen eleven, immediately sending it off
to a smith to get all this work done, babulous guns.
But I think the reality of a lot of the
consumers nowadays is they're looking for if they're looking for
a snub, they're looking more for something like an LCR
or a UC maybe as opposed to something where they
kind of buy it as a blank slate and then

(31:25):
get things built up. Not to say that's a bad thing,
I absolutely want to do that, but but I think
that those are kind of my initial thoughts on this
idea of modernization of revolvers.

Speaker 4 (31:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
Well, and to add on what you said Lipsies, Man,
we have connections.

Speaker 4 (31:43):
Should have should have reached out to them.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
Lipsey's has been doing a great job specifically with the
UC and I know there are other things on the
on the horizon. These are things people want and they're
in the configurations. You know what I want that. I
don't have to do a damn thing to that gun.
It's it's like I'm carrying the four thirty two as
we speak. I didn't need to do anything to it. Okay,
I did change the grips and they might they might

(32:07):
be Ryan's. But other than that, what a fantastic gun.
So to modernize, Scott, what does it take typically for
you when when you receive an older revolver to get
those Because I like the idea of the fibers. The

(32:27):
fibers fiber sits are awesome. What's the costs and involved?
What's the amount of work that's involved?

Speaker 2 (32:36):
Well, that's going to depend on how far you want
to go m on any of the guns that are
pin sites. It is simple as a h about a
fifty dollars site. Yeah, and forty five dollars for me

(32:57):
to drill the pin hole through it, and you have
your fiber optic.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
In fact, Tom's Mountain Gun is doing exactly that to it.
Now there's other ways to go that give you more versatility. Yeah, okay,
so this is a six twenty seven. What is this?

(33:25):
The pro is the that's the performance center one. But
you'll notice maybe if I can get some contrast, there's
a little hole at the top here. Yeah, this site
is a DX front site. And what that means is
you can actually fairly easily if I can get a

(33:47):
good grip on the little site. I usually have to
put it like a little clamp on it or something.

Speaker 4 (33:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
But and like I said, I got to put a
clamp on it. I got a big fingers, So grabbing
hold of little things like that, I earn a spring
tension don't work. But anequies you push that back, tilt
it up and you can change the front site. So
right now it's got a night sight on it. Yeah,
and yes, I know I just flagged myself. Don't need

(34:11):
you to tell me.

Speaker 4 (34:15):
We'll leave that for the viewers.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
Like I'm in I'm a gunsmith in a shop I've
always got guns pointing at me. It's it's a way
of life for me. But if I wanted to go
fiber optic, it's just a matter of pulling that one
out and putting it in if you want to. If
you're going to a fancy barbecue and you want to
go bed front site and pull it out put it in.
It gives you a lot of versatility, and I can

(34:39):
do that adaptation to any gun. Bowing Classic Arms makes
a part that I can remachine the barrel for and
I can put that on any gun. Some guns, like
uh Nate was saying, the Model sixty four. Yeah, I

(35:00):
machine this off and I cut a dovetail on it.
I cut it for a nineteen eleven site, So you
have all the versatility of whatever nineteen eleven front site
that you want, that is of the correct height. I
regulate it, you know, I test it to see what
height it needs and get the correct height so that
you have a point of vain point of impact. But

(35:22):
you know, there's there's all kinds of different ways of
going about doing that. As far as rear sights, you've
got two variants. You have the old square blade and
you have the modern round round ones. The more modern

(35:43):
ones you're going to have the most options to because
it's the current production. The square ones you'll have fewer options.
But it can be adapted, like I I can redrill
holes on the top of the strap on this old
twenty seven sorry, this is twenty eight and put you know,

(36:03):
a modern site on it. Yeah, you know, it's just
a matter drilling and tapping a couple of holes. It
It all depends on how critical you are on the
look of the gun. I don't like to do things
that make a gun look ugly. Yeah, but if that's
what the customer wants, I'll do that.

Speaker 6 (36:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:27):
But yeah, it's uh so, I mean, you can get
the modern rear sight with the picatin you plate, so
you can put your I mean, that's exactly what Dave
did on his nineteens. He put in a different adapter
that let him mount that to it. I mean, and
it's it was Dave. What it was, one screw coming out,
two or three screws going in.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
Oh you're mute, uh huh.

Speaker 4 (36:54):
See, I'm trying. I'm trying to not talk over people
make noises. Yeah, this one's made by JP. People ask
me all the time, yeah, this is a Dawson three
three four five height site and yeah, just swapped it
and put a pin in there and this, you know,
a little bit of lock tight. The only thing with
this is the the shield arm style sites with the

(37:18):
four retail recoil bosses. They don't work with the five
oh seven series sights.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
So shave them off.

Speaker 4 (37:24):
Yeah, just shaved them and you know, no big deal.
The I don't remember the rears of the fronts are
still there, but these sites only have two of the
two of the recoil bosses in them. So and uh
so yeah, I mean, you know, it was like, I
have a couple of files and belt sander and a
drumall I'm like, God, don't use a dremale. You'll ruin

(37:45):
your gun, you know, gunsmith, Yeah, yeah, because rotary tools. Right,
I am nowhere near the level of capability that Scott is,
but I have I have worked on some guns. So
this is like, you know, this is the kind of
thing that someone with a little bit of know how
can very easily do because these modern smiths, they come

(38:06):
drillden tapped under that adjustable rear sight. So if you
get an adapter that works with the site, you want
to have, whether it's a dot or a scope. A
lot of times it just drops in and works. But
I mean there might be some minor fitting because there's
parts tolerances and there's slight differences and designs and stuff.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
Or you just go with the Taurus Toro and they're
optic ready.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
Yeah, the I'm starting to see a lot of spill
over and I credit the AR fifteen crowd and the
Block Knight, you know, the Glock nineteen crowds of much
more plug and play accessories on revolvers. I mean, we've
got more now than we've ever had before that are

(38:52):
that are truly just plug it in and go.

Speaker 4 (38:55):
I think probably a lot of that has to do
with people around my age group, like Ryn and I
are pretty similar in age. I think Nate's a couple
of years younger than I am. But the the like
I don't know if you want to call us xenials
or elder millennials or whatever, like you know, I was
born in eighty two, so but you have the people

(39:16):
like at the very tail end of Gen X and
the very beginning of Millennials, and then beyond that and
as we became adults, it was it was shortly after
I became an adult and kind of got into guns.
It was like, Hey, the AWB sunset, So now everyone's
buying ars, everyone's buying a pile of blocks and everything else.
The stuff that was that was more difficult to acquire

(39:40):
in the way it's supposed to be built. And I'm
not going to rant about the NFA and how the
autoce here in an ARM sixteen is actually safety device,
but taking that aside, a lot of us like, yeah,
I have you know, I have pistols with dots, pistols
without dots. I have a pile of ar, I have cans,

(40:01):
I have you know, all sorts of stuff like that.
And at some point, aside from like a semi auto
twenty two with a can, it's like, eh, you get
to the point where it's just okay, I have these
guns for this type of thing. I have these guns
for this type of thing. These are the one or
two or three guns are, depending on who you talk
to online, the sixteen different guns I carry, depending on

(40:24):
the shirt and code I'm wearing. Yeah, that's not another rant.
But you get beyond a certain point and you go
what's next, And a lot of the hobby with guns
stuff has led to exactly what Scott was saying, which is,
you know this thing like this one. I want to say.

(40:46):
This is a twelve to two and it was made
in early mid seventies, so you know this gun. This
gun's older than I am, but I carry it. I
bob the hammer, I got ryan'scripts on it. All that's fantastic.
But the thing about this is it's you get someone
like me who's got all the modern stuff, and it's like,

(41:09):
how about I see if I can get good at
the things with the longer triggers and you know, they're
harder to load and all that, And then you start
to realize, hey, wow, when I'm good with this, let
me try it with this. Wow, that's pretty good. And
then you pick up a glock with a dot, a

(41:30):
sig with a dot, as long as you don't shoot yourself. True.
You know, if you pick up a modern gun with
iron sights or a dot, and you go, well, shit,
this is like easy mode, and these back up and
you go, Okay, I'm pretty good with this. And then
you pick the modern gut up and.

Speaker 8 (41:46):
You go, wow, this is easy mode, and it really
helps you see the utility of using double action revolvers specifically,
and then you go, I want to take those double
action revolvers and I want to do stuff to him.

Speaker 4 (42:01):
And that leads directly to what Scott was talking about.
Because the market is there, people will people will fill
the need in the market. And I think Ryan could
probably speak to that pretty well.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
I just I just felt the ghost of Gary hugheson here.
But though Gary's gone single action, but some of the
stuff you said just like Gary.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
You well, and if you think about the changes in
technology as far as producing parts, I mean, if you
think about you know, Hamilton Bowen Bowen classic arms, you know,
when he first started making his sights. You're talking about
a guy, you know, wearing a green advisor on his

(42:44):
hat at a drafting table, reverse engineering the Smith and
Wesson site, and then handing those designs over to a
grizzled old guy at a manual lathe and mill, you know,
cutting the parts just because you can look at a
piece of paper and say, OK, I know what to cut.
Whereas now you have a guy at a computer with

(43:04):
a few clicks, makes a part and sends it over
to a machine that makes the part for you.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
Bryan's Ryan's doing that, Brian, Brian's the other guy. Ryan. Yeah,
Ryan's doing that with grips. Yeah, very successfully.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yep. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (43:20):
And you know with what we're doing. By the way,
I did a whole bunch of headset moving around. Do
I sound all right or h yeah? All right? We uh,
you know, we're doing palmer today. But there's all kinds

(43:41):
of metals that are available. So you know, they're doing
the cans that are titanium cans, and those are using
a powder process with lasers and all that stuff, the
same way we're making the grips. That's how they're making
some of those flow through cans. But you know, Nate
mentioned materials, and you know, the material science is really

(44:04):
changing too, because it turns out that some of the
most optimal materials are actually extremely difficult to mill or manufacture,
and those things that are most difficult to mill or
manufacture are actually quite easy with this new powder additive
manufacturing process. And a lot of these powder processes are

(44:28):
only getting more and more accurate within terms of tolerance
and stable in terms of overall purity of the metal
no avoids and everything else. And then the size of
the part you don't have some constraints that you have otherwise,
and also the design, so I'm excited to see kind

(44:50):
of what possibilities might exist as we start going into
some of these other cool materials. So there's there's one
that I'm excited about. It's actually called titanium a human eyed.
It's a it's a lighter weight titanium with higher heat
tolerance than titanium. It's very heat tolerant, and I think

(45:14):
there's some cool things that can be done with that material,
and that that's a very optimal powder type process within
additive manufacturing. So'm I am looking forward to the materials.
In terms of modernized revolvers, I had to run and
grab one. My kind of my take on what I

(45:34):
think is one of the most modern or advanced kind
of carry revolvers is you know this end frame right here,
that's right, and so you know, you you get something
like this and you get bobbed, and it's bobbed, and
you got this short little barrel and you got rounds

(45:58):
three fifty seven And the only thing I would change
on this is the front site. And I've been so
peeved with it, I'm like ready to go buy a
block of steel and start filing and make my own
darn front site. Maybe I'll send one to Scott and
and he can he can work up something special. I
don't know, but this gun, I think is there's some

(46:21):
there's some things here that can happen. And you know,
I know they're doing this in nine MIL, but I
think that thirty two hn R would be neat and
getting something in like a twenty two long rifle or
twenty two mag And then all of a sudden you
actually have a revolver that is as capable or more

(46:42):
capable in terms of capacity and weight than what you
get in the same size or package as semi auto.
And it's a and it's a revolver. So you know,
I think, I think the uh, I think the future
is bright in revolver space and UH and it's pretty
exciting to be you know, where we are right now
and just at the time that we live in right now.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
Absolutely absolutely, you know, I'm thinking about what you guys
are saying. And for you, the listener of the viewer,
if you're now looking through your guns and going, oh,
I can change out things, and you're seriously looking into it,
believe a comment because it would be really interesting. I
know we have at least one person that's grabbing the revolver, going, oh,

(47:24):
I can change this out. I can do this because
it's exciting. It is absolutely exciting. And you brought up
the three twenty seven, what a weird peculiar and I
had to have it because it was so weird, and
Nate broke my sticks twenty seven, So yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
I well cautioned people out there when it comes to
the springs. You know, your spring swap action jobs, you
are almost guaranteed to get light strikes if it's not
done correctly. You know the I don't I don't care

(48:09):
whose spring kit you're using. The main the leaf mainspring.
It comes from wolf Gun Springs. It's their power rib.
Whether it says comes in a Wilson package or anybody
else's package, it's a wolf spring. And if you're not
putting an extended strain screw in it, you're going to

(48:31):
get light strikes. If you're not putting extended firing pins
in it, you're gonna get light strikes. It isn't just
a as much as it seems like it's plug and play,
it's not, and it does have to be tuned, so
a lot of times you have to do things like, okay,
I need this much strain on it to get reliable firing.
But now the trigger won't reset, so I need a
stiff or a rebound spring. If you don't know these things,

(48:54):
send it to me. Yeah, that's that's my job. I
tuned the gun to make it work.

Speaker 6 (49:00):
Yeah, that's interesting you mentioned that because I've I've managed
to buy a couple revolvers at a pretty deeply discounted
price because you know they bought it, and gosh, the things.
It's not shooting, well, it's just it's light striking lo
and behold, I pull all of that stuff out and
go to the OEM catalog and put it all back in,

(49:22):
and wouldn't you know it, it started shooting really well
like this, And I show this just because we were
just mentioning this. Ryan had pulled his up and Matt
had mentioned how I broke his end frame. But it
wasn't necessarily my fault. It was piercing primers with us
some man. The first time in like years i'd shot

(49:44):
an non reloaded amm on, Like I'm going to take
care of Matt's gun. I'm going to shoot some nice
factory AMMO pierce the primers and absolutely destroyed the firing pin,
spring and a few things. But this is an example
of I think Dave saw this on the discord, but
I finally grab three twenty seven PC, I think is

(50:04):
what they call this one at a at a pretty
steep discount, which is very weird for these guns because
you just don't see these going for less than Honestly,
MSRP are a little under and I can use them
yeah or yeah if you can even find them, But
this one came to me with a I could tell
the first time I pulled the trigger it was like

(50:24):
somebody somebody did the spring swap in this gun, and I,
as you can see, I've torn it all apart, and
lo and behold. I don't think there was a factory
spring in the gun, but guess what the magic The
trigger weight was really low, which I'm sure is what
they were going for. But I'll be buying a new

(50:46):
main spring, trigger, return spring, a few things that they'd
futzed around in it, and I think I'm going to
get it back to one hundred percent again.

Speaker 5 (50:55):
And so I would say on some of the light
strike stuff and kind of It's been my go to
if TK Customs is running a sale, just stock up
on extended firing firing pins. Like that's what I love
TK Customs, extended firing pins. I put them in everything.

Speaker 6 (51:14):
So yeah, I'm I'm not of the level of expertise
to know. I know Brian Eastridge has told me that
he personally doesn't use the extended firing pins, and for me,
I don't know enough to just go beyond. I'm going
to buy the OEM stuff. I can handle. The trigger weight,
not a big deal. So so.

Speaker 4 (51:35):
I actually got logged in the chat and there's a
couple of questions. So x A Z bam FX smith
for thirty two U see American Fighting Revolver.

Speaker 6 (51:50):
Yeah or nay?

Speaker 4 (51:52):
Yeah, they're fabulous guns. The guys Brian and dB AT
Brian with Y and dB AT AFR had some input
on the process. Uh so the UC and then then
tit teening. You see, they're fantastic guns. I don't personally
have one. I know Matt Seti's kroenline right now. Ye,
they're fantastic guns. By with confidence. Uh, the very first run,

(52:14):
there were some there were some QC issues but uh
but but that's been worked out. Uh that send it
to Smith. They'll they'll fix it.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
Personally, I recommend my constant companion package or that, or
you know, you know, I may have alternative reasons for
for recommending that.

Speaker 6 (52:37):
We'll on that.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
So I'm sorry, Ryan, but you know this is the
uh uh These are Hogues and they're the Bantam Boot grips,
and honestly, I've been using these before I even knew
Ryan was around. And I'm actually my next uh iteration.
I'm going to be offering a variety of grips, and
Ryan's is going to be one of them. For so

(53:00):
customer will be able to choose what he wants. It'll
be the Hogues, the vzs and Ryan's. But so this
is this is actually Tom's gun. He sent it back
up here because I had a front site issue, and
it was actually an issue I was waiting to happen
because this was this is the excess front site for
the fixed site jframes and according to their instructions, you

(53:25):
you basically machine off the existing site, leaving a little
nub and then you use JB weld to put it
back in place. And when I first started doing it,
I kind of like went, well, I'm going to take
you guys on your word, because you do. You should
be doing your research and you should know. But this

(53:45):
gun went to a firearms instructor who uses it in
his class and gets sees more use than most people's
little jframes do, and so it started to come loose.
So he sent it back up here and I draw
drilled a little crosspin through it, put a put a
rollpin through it, and put it all back together, and
so it's ready to go again. But I do my

(54:07):
level one trigger and action job to them. You get
a good nice eight and a half nine pound on
the double trick on the double action. The ucs are
an improvement over the standard Smith. They've got an eleven
pound trigger from the factory rather than the twelve to
fifteen the jframes come with. But this one still comes

(54:28):
in lighter. I bob the hammer. I like to use
the six thirty sevens because you'll get a little bit
lower profile print profile because of the lower hump on
the back. And also if you're trained and skilled in
the use of your revolvers, you can still get a

(54:48):
single action cock on there. I don't recommend everybody trying
it unless you're doing it with an empty gun and
getting a lot of practice because it's very he's going
to slip off of that and fire the guy. But
it can be done after that, bebel and polished the chambers. Uh,

(55:09):
so you get nice ejections and reloads, and you got
yourself the constant companion.

Speaker 6 (55:16):
Nice.

Speaker 4 (55:17):
And I know some people don't send their guns back
to the factory because they've heard they've heard of terrible
experiences sending stuff back to smith. So someone like Scott that,
you know, that's a really great alternative if you have
an issue with factory gun. Let's see the next question.
Matt drop Coro asked where Caleb is. I'm sure Caleb
as usual is busier than a than a one legged
man in asking contest. So there wasn't there wasn't enough

(55:40):
notice for him to be here. Revo fan thoughts about
Dave lock stuff. So three inch GP one hundred. He
he did the mount, So I have the capability to
do this like see and seeing everything, but I don't
have the skill, So I send it to someone who
has the skill. And uh, he made the he machined

(56:02):
the top strap, made them mount, and I have a
it's a it's an rm R pattern. I have a
holocn on there. Fantastic work, No zero issues. I know
some people when they mount dots on revolvers have issues
with elevation. I think probably just the way it's machined.
It doesn't sit perfectly parallel with the bore. But no

(56:23):
issues at all. It hasn't come loose. I've beat on
it quite a bit, so I definitely recommend it. Let's
see what was the next question. Uh, I think there
was one more.

Speaker 6 (56:39):
Well, there's one at the very bottom.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
This one.

Speaker 6 (56:43):
Yeah, which if if you don't watch these, this is
a YouTube, an excellent YouTube channel. Yes, love every single
thing that he puts out. But yeah, he made he
made kind of a comment in passing about about trigger
whear and how that the older, older Smith's revolvers could

(57:05):
have a better trigger on them when the firing pin
was mounted to the hammer. Now, my initial yeah, my
initial thought on that was kind of similar to like
a Brenna ninety two, where you have the hammer hitting this,
hitting this, hitting the firing pin kind of requires you
to up the weight just a little bit to deal

(57:26):
with that energy loss and the transfer from the hammer
to in in the Smith's revolver case the hammer to
the firing pin mounted in the frame to the primer,
as opposed to know an older one where the firing
pin is directly mounted to the hammer. But that's that's
all I understand. I don't have the technical know how

(57:46):
to describe it in detail, but I think that's what
he was mentioning.

Speaker 4 (57:50):
Yeah, well, plus you have the plus you actually have
a little spring that pushes the firing pin back that
has to be overcome as well. So yeah, I think,
not in as many words, but he he's just talking
about the system with an actual firing pin, is is
going to be more efficient in firing a primer, so
it can be tuned a little bit closer. And I

(58:14):
think that's his point.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
That's one hundred percent. I mean, with that firing pin
on the hammer like that, you get one transfer of
energy right to the primer. When I do my trigger
jobs on these older Smiths, I don't have to change
the firing pin. I don't have to put an extended

(58:36):
one on there. I don't have to do anything to it.
And it's because and I can still get a lighter
trigger pull, especially my personal six nine, I have a
pound and a half single action pull on it, and
it's got an eight pound double action and it always fires.

(58:56):
I've never had it light striking because it's the style
that has the firing pin there Power Customs, so.

Speaker 6 (59:10):
I have.

Speaker 2 (59:12):
Nope, somewhere yes, hang on.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
So my follow up question of that is we were
talking about what's old is new sort of do you
guys ever see them coming back?

Speaker 2 (59:27):
I don't. The lawyers will never let it happen, and
that really is where the problem is also for everything artititional,
you know, the you might see a company like maybe
Spore would be willing to come back out with it,

(59:48):
but you'll never see a company like Smith and Wesson
do it because it's just the the machining complexity of
allowing the hammer, you know, to have this on there,
you have more cuts in the frame and also on
the part itself then you do with today's design. So
what I was going for is one of the upgrades

(01:00:09):
that you'll see offered from Power Customs for these fire
and pins. Now they do offer an extended one for them,
but the big thing is changing out these older ones
that don't have a spring loading on them two ones
that do. These ones here so that it resets the

(01:00:32):
hammer to the sorry the firing pin to the same
spot every time and you get a more consistent hit.
So that is an upgrade that you can do to
the older ones. Cool if you know how.

Speaker 4 (01:00:45):
So question has s popped up from Revo fan Kaidex
iWB speedloader moonclip pouches. So I found a company called
Turner CNC and this is a three D printed speedloader
holder and I just I have I disassembled a few

(01:01:08):
things so I could hold up components while we were talking.
But this it doesn't have any active retention for the ammunition.
But if you carried iWB you're going to have pressure
on the on the side of your speed loader. And
I have tried it with moon clips and just going
and shooting it works fine. And this is moon clips

(01:01:30):
for a Tourust six ninety two, so a nine mili
So they sit pretty flush, so grabbing them out is
not as efficient as grabbing a speed loader because you
have more to grab onto. But I found that this
is a functional product. They're not terribly expensive and the
company seems like good guys, and they do send them
with discrete carry concepts clips and screws. Oh good, Yes, yes,

(01:01:54):
so it's a quality product and it's it's a good
place to look.

Speaker 1 (01:02:02):
Let's take a quick little break. I'm going to have
some ads run. This will give the panel and the
viewers almost two minutes to run to the bathroom if
they need to two minutes or get refill on the drink,
So stand by. But just so you know, as soon
as that all the ads are done, we're back into it.
So it's kind of quick. It's a minute and thirty

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YEP voice sounds familiar, It's funny, I listen to that
and think and I need to re record some of

(01:04:13):
these or update them. Also, I can I can kind
of hear my own health one of those. I think
I had a cold.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
Yeah, So I think we should ask you the people
who the instructors here about training with the revolvers.

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
Well, I can say from my own experience, I kind
of wish my buddy John the fish Coop was here
for this, and I wouldn't be surprised if Dave and
Nate do this as well. Talk about a great tool
for dry fire, for having those new shooters. See, Okay,
look what your sites are doing during all of this,
and it's a it's a great workout, such a great workout.

(01:04:57):
And we're not pulling hammers back, we're not doing anything
single actions.

Speaker 4 (01:05:02):
All double action.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
But it's enjoyable, it's fun, it's it's it's meaningful.

Speaker 4 (01:05:11):
Yeah. No, I agree, And to kind of repeat and
maybe expound a little bit on what I mentioned earlier.
When you go from the kind of person who's only
ever shot a strike a fired handgun, and then you
give them a a double action trigger pool that they

(01:05:32):
have to manage not only the weight but the length
of the pool. When you get them to master it.
It makes a big difference because there was a whole
wave of people as as revolvers kind of got kicked
to the wayside. It was like double action single action
semi autos. You had the SIGs and the Smiths that
kind of stuff. So there was there was that whole
wave and then and then Glock came on the scene

(01:05:54):
and just kicked everyone's ass. Yep. Uh So I what
I used to do was my previous duty gun. My
first duty gun was a was a Smith forty five
sixty six TSW. That thing. I got it new in
the box and it had an eighteen pound double action
trigger poll for that first for that first trigger pull,
and let me tell you, and it's it's like it's

(01:06:19):
on its second mainspring but it's at about twelve thirteen
pounds now. And that's after I kept track while I
was carrying it. But I don't keep track anymore. I
don't shoot it very often anymore. But I mean that
was over the course of twenty thirty thousand rounds that
I put through it. And that was the gun. I

(01:06:39):
would hand people that gun and I'd watch them and
that hammer was bobbed on that gun. But I'd watch
the hammer. I'd watch their hands and they go press, press, jerk,
and then look at me and they go, what's wrong
with your gun? I'd say, hey, you have to press
the trigger all the way and they go, what do

(01:07:01):
you mean? Because they'd only ever fire struck or fired
handgun that has or maybe maybe a cockton lock style
handgun like a nineteen eleven, or maybe one of the
czs where they never shoot it double action, and they'd
only ever had a short, relatively light trigger press and
they never experience anything else. So their whole, their whole

(01:07:22):
experience shooting is slap, slap, slap, slap, slap. Every time
they press that trigger, it's a slap. And the thing is,
if if you have the skills, as in the requisite
strength in your arms and shoulders and the ability to
hold that gun steading when you slap it, as long
as your aiming device is where the bullet needs to go,

(01:07:42):
and you don't jerk the gun off of target, it
doesn't it doesn't matter how hard you slap that trigger
if you have the strength and skilled to hold it
on target. But the thing is, the overwhelming majority of
people don't have that ability. So like you were saying
that giving people a gun, giving people a gun that

(01:08:04):
has that long double action trigger press that they have
to manage and say, and and just having them dry fired. Hey,
just work this trigger, watch your sights, what happens with
your sights when that hammer falls, and then you can
go to instead of having to fiddle with I have

(01:08:24):
dummy cartridges or I'm gonna put empty brass in the gun.
With a magazine fed gun, you can literally hand them
the gun. You know, you open it up, you load,
you load one or two rounds in this in this cylinder,
you close the cylinder, you hand them the gun, and
you say, put the sights on target and shoot the target.

(01:08:46):
At some point you're going to have a bag. I'm
not going to tell you when. Yeah, And so that's
a really really valuable training experience. Is like I was
saying before, getting good with a double action revolver where
every trigger press that longer, heavier trigger pass. When you
go back to a short you know, either whether you

(01:09:08):
call it a one and a half, a DA or
something like something like a SIG that has a fully
cock striker, you go, you go to one of those actions,
and you're like, shooting is easy mode now, so it's
an incredible training tool from that perspective. And then if
you go to something like a twenty two where you

(01:09:30):
have noise but essentially no recoil, I mean, like with assistance.
I had my four year old shooting this. Now, he's
not strong enough to double action, but I could cock
the hammer form, which is why I bought a three
seventeen instead of a forty three C. But I can
cock the hammer form and he's he's able to like
aim down the sites and hit a target, you know,

(01:09:52):
at five feet and it's insane fun for him. He'd
do it all day if I let him. But a
gun like this, which Scott by the way, this is
this is Ryan's version of that boot grip that you
showed on Tom's gun. It's excellent, but you know, just
as a training tool again, and with this you still

(01:10:12):
have that heavy trigger pull, that double action trigger pull.
This one we talked about springs and whatnot. This didn't
have the firing pin block in it, and the tiny,
tiny little bit of extra energy it pulls from the
hammer to as as things go back and forth was
enough to cause this to have light strikes. And the
mainspring in here is not a factory red mainspring, so

(01:10:35):
I ordered one. So, yes, light strikes are caused by
aftermarket parts, and someone took the hammer block out of
this in order to make it reliably set off primers.
So we're putting a factory spring back in it as
soon as it comes in a couple of days. Hooray.
That's what happens when you buy used guns. Sometimes you
end up with a little bit of a project. This
gun I also much too much to people's chagrin, I

(01:10:58):
I shortened the front sight, and I actually I fixtured
the barrel and actually and actually twisted a little bit
because it was it was it was off by like
six inches of fifteen yards. A lot of people got
on me about that. You know, Facebook, general population gun groups,
they tend to get a little crazy about those things.
But but yeah, corn Pop's revenge, the rim fires. Yeah,

(01:11:23):
in order to set off those primers, they tend to
need a little bit, need a little bit more power
behind the hammer. So you're going to have a heavier
trigger pool And I think Scott really is more qualified
than I am to talk about this. But the weight
is not important as the smoothness of the action and
that's why people like Scott are important in the industry.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
Yeah, absolutely, and yes, he's absolutely correct. The the rim
fires require a heavier trigger pull. It's it's it's been
one of the banes of gunsmithing and Smith and Wesson
revolvers because I'll get people to bring them to me,
and you know, it's one of those times where I

(01:12:08):
actually have to evaluate the person bringing in the gun
to see how much I'm going to be able to
do for them, because in order to get an actual
nice trigger pull, I do have to change out the
firing pin on those. However, when you do that on
a rim fire, I make sure I pound it into
their skull that there is absolutely no dry firing the

(01:12:31):
gun without something in the chambers, because it will dim
the edge of the chamber and then you won't be
able to load it.

Speaker 4 (01:12:41):
With living and more titanium like this cylinder. I mean,
it's literally one time it'll it'll mess up that chamber wall.

Speaker 2 (01:12:48):
Yep. And so there's a local group of guys who
does a lot of Smith and Weston shooting here in town.
A lot of them are doing the six seven teens.
I think it is the uh, the l frame twenty two's, yeah,
and the one brought his gun to me, and then

(01:13:10):
because he started doing better, the others brought their guns
to me. And you know, I had to make sure.
It's like, okay, listen.

Speaker 4 (01:13:16):
To you, guys.

Speaker 2 (01:13:17):
I don't want to hear it if you start drive
firing your gun in practice and you ding this without
putting something in there, because it's you know, I'm it's
not my call because I'm doing this for you and
you understand so.

Speaker 4 (01:13:30):
But like.

Speaker 2 (01:13:33):
When you know little miss Peggy, you know, blue haired
old lady brings in her gun that she she feels
she needs to have and it's one of those J
Frame twenty twos, but she can't pull the trigger on it. Yeah,
I'm going to smooth it up, because it's going to

(01:13:53):
smoothing it up is going to do all the world
of difference. I'm only going to replace one in the
spring versus the two so that she maintains more power.
But I'll get it to where she can she can
pull the trigger. It's one of those things. It's like
you just have to evaluate your customer. But yeah, I mean,

(01:14:14):
just in fact a gun that I just got this
gun in uh in trade. It's a it's a three
inch six twenty nine. And when I get one of
these in, when things in, I'll start pull the trigger.
And I was impressed because it's actually got a fairly
smooth from the factory trigger, which tells me that it's

(01:14:36):
going to take my custom work very well. And the trigger,
the weight of it isn't too bad. So I bet
you if I just polished the heck out of the insides,
I could probably leave those springs the same and I'd
have a very nice trigger. I'll still change out the
springs just because it's going to be my gun, but
you know I could, I could, just like he says,

(01:15:00):
the polish work, and Tom he can attest you know
I did his sixty four and Tom, go ahead and
tell him how you felt about that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:12):
Well, I think it. You know, people don't.

Speaker 7 (01:15:18):
You can't appreciate it until you start working with a
good trigger and nothing like that is coming from the factory.
You're just simply not going to get anything like that
from the factory on anything from a K frame and larger,
and you're not going to get his good a trigger
from the factory. As you get on the constant companion

(01:15:39):
that's the essential. You know, serious men have known for
about one hundred and sixty five years now the essentials
of a really efficient, effective defensive pistol, and Colonel Cooper
began to articulate that for the world in the sixties
and then did.

Speaker 3 (01:15:57):
Some for the rest of his life.

Speaker 7 (01:15:59):
You will want sites that we can see, a trigger
that very eminently usable, and we want utter reliability. And
then following that no sharp edges, we want durability and
so on, and that starts getting into the materials. I'm
primarily focused, of course, on the most efficient effective use

(01:16:21):
of the gun and those three principles. So when we
look at the modernization of the revolver, really if we're
talking about use, we're really just talking about those things
that contribute to those three principles or those three sites
and and reliability. The trigger pull on the double action

(01:16:46):
is very interesting. I first work with people on the
proper placement of the front are proper use of the sites,
and then proper placement of the site on the target.
And then we're looking for a trigger that will not
disturb that to an appreciable degree. And so when you
look at what you do to the trigger's got you

(01:17:09):
is as slick and smooth as it can be. And
in addition to that, you recontour and actually polish the
trigger so that the finger slides across it during the
double action press.

Speaker 3 (01:17:25):
And what I found, and I'm.

Speaker 7 (01:17:29):
Working on how to articulate this too much, for what
I have found is that with that type of trigger
and that type of action job, it actually contributes to
stabilizing the front side on the target.

Speaker 3 (01:17:43):
It's another it's a nut here.

Speaker 7 (01:17:45):
It is it's another point of positive controlled contact on
the gun through the trigger press, and it really does
contribute to maintaining that front side, indexing that front type
properly on the target. To me, see these things from

(01:18:06):
a really good action job to the fiber optic site,
proper rear site, all of these things, that's that's the modernization.
Uh the you know Ryan's stocks. You're putting the fair
of Ryan stocks on one of my revolvers I'll have

(01:18:29):
here before long. And you know it's it's a minimalist.
It's it's textured properly and which contributes to properly controlling
the gun during firing and so on. All of these
things are what we're looking for. I think what we
should be looking for uh in a in a modern revolver.

(01:18:50):
It's the way I think it ought to come out
of the factory, but it avery will you.

Speaker 4 (01:18:53):
Know, I think there's an interesting as you were a comment.

Speaker 1 (01:18:59):
As you were you were talking about that and thinking
of Colonel Cooper's principles and things, a concept came in
my mind where online when we discuss these concepts, there's
purpose is kind of lost where some people are thinking
of it from Okay, well I'm hunting bear. Well I'm

(01:19:22):
not going to be using that for hunting or against humans.
And my entire focus has been with anti personnel, anti human. Yeah,
I have I have some things that will be good
for various animals. But my career, my training, everything has
been so focused just on hey, how do we incapacitate

(01:19:44):
the human?

Speaker 3 (01:19:45):
Yeah, you know, we're.

Speaker 7 (01:19:49):
One of the things that we would always ask is
what are we trying to do here? Yes, Olier to
identify purpose leads us down so many rabbit trail completely. Yes,
then we're not prepared for anything, or we're certainly not
prepared for the incident that arises. If I were living
in Alaska, I would be carrying different loads and so

(01:20:12):
but I'm not. I'm down here in North Texas, and
so what is it we're trying to accomplish here is
always a great question to ask, And then what are
the essential principles necessary in order to achieve that?

Speaker 1 (01:20:28):
Yeah, and personally, for me, I would rather not carry
the multitool equivalent of a firearm. I want my firearm
to be it's good at this, and so I'll be
much more effective with the thing that's purpose built versus well,
it's good at all these things.

Speaker 4 (01:20:48):
I don't want it to be good at all these things.

Speaker 7 (01:20:50):
You know, here's the thing to the revolver because of that,
because well, but you know you're choosing something that's limited
in compacting and so on.

Speaker 3 (01:21:01):
Well, that's always a possibility though.

Speaker 7 (01:21:03):
I mean, if you're carrying a high capacity nine millimeter
and you have twelve guys show up to your fight, wow, y,
wouldn't it have been great to have more body armor
and a baddle rifle?

Speaker 3 (01:21:13):
So there's always that, But if we understand that.

Speaker 7 (01:21:18):
What we're what we want to do as far as
you know, just good strong capable men and utilizing the tool,
is to use that tool as effectively as we possibly can.
And then we and what is an effective tool. And
I obviously I prefer a nineteen eleven forty five automatic.
That's a that's a superb, superb fighting tool. Okay, But

(01:21:43):
having said that, you know, if you approach it from
the perspective, I want to be so good to be
able to solve this problem with what I have in
my hand.

Speaker 3 (01:21:53):
And I really love the revolvers. I love their elegance.
I love just the.

Speaker 7 (01:22:02):
I just you know, just really appreciate that platform. There's
an elegance to it, right there is. Someone says, yeah,
but the reeloads and all this, Well, what if I
do this, what if I train so as to solve
generally speaking, any problem with what I've gotten the gun,
then that's that's not a factor. I remember Colonel Cooper

(01:22:24):
saying one time that when they were in the process
of developing IPSICK and all, you know, the various scenarios
and everything, he said, I believe that we overemphasize the reload.
I believe we overemphasize the reload. And you've got all
these magical looking reloads. That's all great and cool, but
he thought the purpose of all of that, from his perspective,

(01:22:45):
was to develop to develop us so that we could
perform with crushing effectiveness out on the street. And that
involves developing the skill to solve the problem with what
I've gotten the gun, and if I've got six rounds
of the magnum, Wow, what a wonderful thing to have
if I've got the skill to go along with it.

Speaker 1 (01:23:05):
Yeah, And I believe Tom gibbons research based on what
his students have encountered. I don't think there's been a
reload yet. There have been deadly force encounters, but not
a reload during the during the incident.

Speaker 4 (01:23:21):
Yeah. So, Matt, I didn't want to interrupt you guys,
but a something medium frame ish, either in three point
fifty seven or forty four, you can absolutely carry it
loaded with stuff from I'm hunting small game, I'm hunting
big bears. So from a from a standpoint, and this

(01:23:44):
is stuff versatility. Yeah, it's it's not new at all. So,
I mean you mentioned that most of yourself is like
two legged predators, right as people like to say, well
the thing is a good buffalo boar. Yeah, yeah, well
not just buffalo boar. There's a there's a number of companies.
Although I think it's interesting how they've developed a very

(01:24:06):
vocal social media video presence in the last few months,
which I think is really cool, good for them, and
he very clearly is is passionate, knowledgeable about loading ammunition,
all that kind of stuff. I'm not trying to take
anything away from him saying there are other companies as well,
but like that nineteen carry comp I have one hundred

(01:24:27):
and thirty five grain gold dots are just normally what
I carry in it, and they're very controllable. I can
get nice fast splits with them off I have to.
But I also have one hundred eighty grain hard cast
because sometimes I go camping where there's bears. I'd much
rather if I if I run into a bear and
I'm on the wrong end of a bear, I'd rather
shoot it with hundred eighty grain one hundred and eighty

(01:24:48):
grain hard cast and get the penetration through that thick
bone and everything. And that's something that you don't have
to the same extent in one gun with a modern
semi auto because you have yeah, because because you have

(01:25:08):
because you have overall length of cartridges that make them
feed in magazines, because you need you have spring rates
and everything else. There's only a certain pressure range and
a certain bullet weight range that will work in a
given semi auto handgun without changing parts out, and changing
those parts out may or may not affect the reliability

(01:25:29):
of said handgun. Whereas and I'm not trying to steal
anything from from from dB, but he's he's he's a
big fan of saying your finger drives the gun. This
is driven by your finger. And when we think about
modern firearms, when we go outside of the very narrow
realm of what is driven by special ops military because

(01:25:53):
because they're usually the people who carry handguns, there are
not too many regular soldiers who carry handguns, so like
the specials tend to carry handguns more often. And then
of course police work, and yeah, when I'm out in
a uniform, you know, like this is a really neat gun,
but I'm representing. I'm like, I'm not David. When I'm

(01:26:16):
out on the street in a uniform, people get mad.
They get mad because I'm the police. They're not mad
at David, at least i'd hope not. And that's something
I try and teach young officers, which is a that's
an aside. But in that case, my glock seventeen with
a heating plus three in it, So I have twenty
one rounds of the gun, and then I have reloads
that have plus fives on them. Because as far as

(01:26:39):
that's concerned, when I'm a guy wearing a vest and
a uniform and everything else, more AMMO is better, You're
seeking things out exactly exactly, Whereas when I'm carrying this,
I'm seeking to be with my family, have fun, and
just generally be a degenerate. Because I mean, in twenty
twenty five, who carries a six shot thirty four ounce gun.

(01:27:01):
You unless yeah, and unless you just like it. You know,
that's the thing. And like Tom was saying, I really
like this, how it looks, how it functions. You know
the fact that people give me a hard time for
the for the tape and I tell them, no, it's
not because Ryan's grip suck. It's because that it keeps

(01:27:22):
me from sliding on the backstrap when I'm shooting it there, Like, well,
why don't you just put a single piece of grip
tape on there, I'm like, because the single piece of
freaking grip tape peels off, So I wrap it around.

Speaker 7 (01:27:31):
The whole gript and I we're discussing that very thing
earlier today.

Speaker 4 (01:27:38):
Yeah, and I've tried it. And even even when you
curl the edges of the tape under the grip panels,
it still peels. But if I wrap it around the grip,
it gives me enough on the backstrap of the gun
to where to where I'm not sliding because I can
grip the gun as hard as I want around the
front and here won't move, but my skin will still

(01:27:58):
slide on that smooth piece the metal a little bit,
and that changes my grip as I'm shooting a gun.
So yeah, I know I could stipple the backstrap, but
I don't really want to. It's a lot easier to
wrap fun looking tape on it, Okay, I like the
look of it.

Speaker 2 (01:28:14):
One thing also, to keep in mind, like you were
saying about, you know what we're facing, you know, keep
in mind like in my area where I live, Wyoming,
at the base of the big Horns, I am as
likely to run into a mountain lion or black bear
as I am to run into a bad guy. Yeah,
or even just a pissed off bowl you know, cow bowl,

(01:28:38):
you know, so a revolver with one hundred and eighty
grain hard cast. It will take care of anything I
will run up against.

Speaker 4 (01:28:51):
Also good with vehicles.

Speaker 2 (01:28:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and uh it's fun. You were Tom,
and like guess Tom said, we were been talking about
that because we're working on a project that I'll be
dropping a video on here soon and it's a converting

(01:29:13):
a square button around button. We were talking about the
backstrap and like do we want to stipple this? And
then so Tom said, oh, okay, well what's that going
to do for us? And I'm like, well, it's going
to help give you some resistance in the palm and
the fleshy part of your hand where the most contact
is taking place under recoil, something to resist against.

Speaker 3 (01:29:37):
And well, go ahead, yeah, Scott.

Speaker 7 (01:29:40):
You know, even after you got that sixty four back
to me this last summer, I was out working with it,
hands were sweating, and even with that thirty eight special,
I felt that backstrap sliding around on my hand. We
probably discussed it all the way back then, In fact,
I know we did.

Speaker 2 (01:29:59):
Yeah, and that was there's a square butt back then,
so I mean it shouldn't have been as much of
an issue, but yet it was.

Speaker 3 (01:30:05):
Yeah, still was still was.

Speaker 2 (01:30:10):
Now it's around. But so I guess I'm going to
have to step with before I send it back to you.

Speaker 7 (01:30:14):
You know, I would hope that all the things that
we're discussing, because what we're discussing are just common areas
of interest and common concerns that everybody has who are
being who are drawn to revolvers, And as with some
of the things that LIPSI has just produced with collaboration
with Smith and Wesson, you know, it's pointing to some

(01:30:35):
of these things. Hopefully the factories will start picking up
on it and we'll have the Golden Age of revolvers
like we have the Golden age of defensive pistols. And
what I mean, there are so many to choose from,
and yet there's a dearth when it comes to revolvers,
just not as many. Well, in fact, I'm not satisfied

(01:30:56):
in anything that's just coming straight down.

Speaker 5 (01:31:01):
Yeah, all right, so I'm a little.

Speaker 3 (01:31:07):
To talk.

Speaker 6 (01:31:07):
At the same time, I think that's some sort of record.

Speaker 4 (01:31:11):
Sorry, I'm watching the chat. So corn Pop's Revenge just
asked a question the revolvers and roomless chamberings required moon
clips for proper rejection. So this was yes, this is uh,
this is a towards six ninety two. I bought it
because I can shoot this is these are dummies, but uh,

(01:31:35):
I can shoot ammunition that my department buys. And so
I did kind of a cost analysis and I was like,
you know what, if I can find one of these
us relatively cheap, which I was able to do, it's
it's worth it to buy one to be able to
shoot nine mil. So I had to figure out moon
clips and so the way these headspace is off of

(01:31:58):
the front of the case mail so you can put
the ambition into them and shoot it and it will work.
But in order to reliably get the spent empty shells
out of it, yes, the moon clips are required, and
there's a few different companies that make them. These are
Smith and Weston oem moon clips, which I believe are
made by TK but they work in this six ninety two,

(01:32:22):
which is kind of a cave frame, kind of an
l frame depending on the part of the gun. It
is awesome. Yeah, I mean I really like it. In
a little while i've had it. But yes, something that
chambers are rimless cartridge. In order to get reliable ejection
that doesn't involve poking or plucking, you're going to need

(01:32:43):
some sort of some sort of full moon or half
moon clip. And I think there's even you can get
depending on the caliber, you can get moon some I
forget if they're called, but they hold just two cartridges
at a time. But yes, that kind of thing is needed.

Speaker 2 (01:32:59):
Okay, so time for history lesson good. Back in the day,
Ruder and the Security six did one for export only.
It went to India for their police department. A no
moon clip required nine millimeter Security six and they accomplished

(01:33:24):
it by making a spring loaded ledge that would snap
into the groove of the roof.

Speaker 4 (01:33:33):
Yeah, Smith did the same thing that the five four
seven is that.

Speaker 2 (01:33:37):
Yeah, theirs wasn't as good.

Speaker 4 (01:33:41):
And then I would want I want to say there's
a modern company that's doing it as well. Charter maybe
has done it.

Speaker 2 (01:33:49):
I wouldn't put any kind of reliability into that.

Speaker 4 (01:33:53):
Well, I'm not saying it's reliable. I'm saying it exists.

Speaker 2 (01:33:58):
Yes, but some of those rulers have been re imported
and they go for usually premiums. But I've had my
hands on a couple of them and they're very interesting design.

Speaker 4 (01:34:13):
Them. From my understanding, this is theoretical knowledge only, but
the issue you have is with remless cartridges. If you
have a revolver that's able to reject them without any
sort of moon clip, getting the cartridges into the gun
quickly is an issue.

Speaker 2 (01:34:31):
It requires more force. So with with an increase of force,
you have increased time. Yes, you wouldn't use it for
a competition. Whether it would make a difference in a
police situation, you know, you cops can tell me whether
that's going to you know, make you live or die.

Speaker 1 (01:34:56):
I'm Karen a clock so yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:35:00):
Yeah, a boring block with a you know, with with
a dot on it. And you know forty seven though, yeah,
so we're.

Speaker 2 (01:35:08):
We're in the middle eastwards went to the forty five.

Speaker 4 (01:35:12):
Yeah yeah, also great gun. I've I've never understood the
long grip short barrel.

Speaker 2 (01:35:20):
I wor stand great because I have big, chunky, meaty hands.

Speaker 4 (01:35:26):
Okay, but aside from aside from shortening the wholester if
you put a if you put no let or a
tiny light. I put a light on the utility. Yep,
that's all I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (01:35:37):
I would say it's a balance issue. So you know
this six inch en frame balance is different than this
three inch end frame. You know, the grip's the same size,
the barrels different, you know, So I mean cops aren't

(01:35:58):
concerned with concealment. I would say they're more concerned with
agility of the gun. At that point, you guys can
tell me.

Speaker 4 (01:36:09):
And three inch guns are just cool.

Speaker 7 (01:36:10):
So yeah, well, I think that when you said the
word cool there, that speaks to preference a large part
to play in what we like to carry.

Speaker 3 (01:36:20):
And that's cool. That's okay, that's cool.

Speaker 6 (01:36:23):
It really is.

Speaker 3 (01:36:24):
So preferences, preference is an important thing. You ought to
be happy with your gun.

Speaker 4 (01:36:29):
Yeah, yeah, And I won't point out the point the
panel member who messaged me instead of just saying it,
but uh yeah, a short a shorter barrel, so you
can put a comp on it. It makes the gun
the same length. But then you run into all the
issues of a comp which is going to make the
gun more AMMO sensitive. Depending on the platform, some platforms

(01:36:49):
there's more or less effect on it. But that can
lead to is the gun as reliable as the same
size gun without a component. And when you talk about
police equipment and the type of people who are police officers,
largely putting comps on guns, in my opinion is not
the best idea unless it's a roll and special.

Speaker 2 (01:37:11):
A revolver will run with a comp regardless of Uh.

Speaker 4 (01:37:15):
Yeah, that's that's true. That's true.

Speaker 2 (01:37:20):
Again, it's quiet as you think it should be. But
yeah it's a run.

Speaker 6 (01:37:26):
Yeah, yeah, since you're mentioning the uh, the compensators. As
as I said earlier, Dave got me into wards to you.

Speaker 4 (01:37:38):
Yes, at revolves, I reached all the way across the
country and just grabbed a hold of them and twisted.

Speaker 6 (01:37:45):
Yeah, it's like the power of Smith and Wesson compels you.

Speaker 7 (01:37:49):
Now.

Speaker 6 (01:37:50):
Actually, this one, this one, I did horse trading, so
I wasn't out any money. I traded some other stuff
for it. But so and we talk about revolver modernization,
which is once again the topic of the show today. Yeah,
this is a feature that's you know, and you know,
an upgrade or whatever you want to call it from

(01:38:11):
a standard barrel. But a friend of mine, Alex, who
lives here close by me, we go out to the
range every once in a while and we set up
what I thought was a fairly interesting comparison because I
have this, which is the shorter of the two carry
comps that are available. This is the two and a
half inch barrel, which once you once you have the commensator,

(01:38:33):
it puts it at about three I think, Dave, you've
got the longer three inch. That puts it at about
three and a half overall length. Is that right?

Speaker 4 (01:38:40):
So I think it's three inches barrels two and a
half yours is two and a half barrel's two.

Speaker 6 (01:38:46):
Okay, okay, yeah, so I yeah, you've got the longer one.
I've got the I've got the shorter one. Alex has
a Smith model sixty six dash eight two and three
quarter inch gun, which is which is an excellent gun,
probably one of my favorite modern K frames. But what's
interesting about it is it is externally almost identical in

(01:39:08):
every way to this gun. The only and even the
the overall total barrel length is within like two tenths
of an inch. The only difference is this gun having
the compensator on the end and the sixty six eight
being a straight two and three quarter inch barrel. It
has the same It has the same Balti dend lock

(01:39:29):
up with the different ejector rod. It has the same underlug,
you know, full full shroud of the ejector rod. So
the weight of the gun is almost identical, the size
of the gun is almost identical. Everything is the same.
We thought, wouldn't it be interesting to go and get
a bunch of ammo and shoot these two guns side
by side and see what the you know, what is

(01:39:50):
the compensator actually doing? Now? I suspected I had some
hornity American gunner, So one hundred and twenty five grain
xtps loaded up to a a foal three fifty seven
you know, pressure level. I thought, this is going to
be the animal that's really going to shine in this
gun because it's a lighter weight bullet, which means it's

(01:40:13):
going to have a little more powder, probably more powder,
more gas, more working of the compensator.

Speaker 4 (01:40:17):
What was your velocity? Twelve?

Speaker 6 (01:40:20):
We didn't chrono these ones. I know, obviously it's going
to be lower in these shorter barreled guns. I'm imagining
in a full sized gun, they're probably fourteen something along
those lines. So we shot those. We shot some spear
one thirty five three fifty seven magnums, which are a
lot sportier than the thirty eight plus pis as Dave

(01:40:42):
told me and I experienced. I shot some one fifty
four grain the new Federal hs T load. We shot
some Underwood thirty eight plus p Heath loads. We shot
some thirty eight special side by side, And I feel
like I've been talking about this way too long. Don't
bury the lead. That's it's not all you should do.

(01:41:03):
But in my experience, and both of us agreed with this,
we both preferred the sixty six Dash eight. Even with
the American American Gunner one one five three fifty seven magnum,
there was only a marginal difference in how the gun
behaved under recoil comp versus no comp. So for the

(01:41:25):
the extra utility of the longer barrel, less concussion, all
that cheaper, cheaper price as well, if I could, if
I could just trade this out for a sixty six
Dash eight, I would probably do it. This is a
great gun. I love it, but if if I was
going to start over, I probably would go get just

(01:41:47):
the standard barrel. I will note we were trying to
do some slow motion video from the side to kind
of capture you know, what the gas was doing and
kind of like really you know, freeze frame how high
the gun was going up. We stop doing that because
putting the having the camera next trying to film from
the side. The congussion was stout it was very difficult

(01:42:10):
to be downrange of this gun. So I think for
just a more kind of utility all around use revolver,
I would probably forego the comp which which kind of
surprised me because I was thinking, you throw a three
fifty seven in there with all that gas, I mean,
it's going to just work this comp like crazy. I
didn't necessarily find that to be the case personally. So

(01:42:31):
as far as modern you know, modern features are upgrading
a revolver. I know Tarus has a number of guns Dave,
like your your seven shot gun is ported from the factory.
Both the standard one and the executive grade are both ported,
and other companies do other porting. So I don't know
the porting compares, you know, a Magnaport, especially on a

(01:42:51):
JA or something. But in this case, with this particular
situation with the Smith carry comp I would probably just
go with the with the stock barrel.

Speaker 2 (01:43:00):
Interesting, so I've been I've been looking at that exact
type of situation because I've I've had guns magnaported in
the past. I did a wonderful six twenty nine with
a four inch barrel that I just went it was
my personal gun, so I did all kinds of custom
work to it, custom finish and all this stuff, and

(01:43:23):
then I sent it to Magnaport, and when I got
it back, I didn't like shooting it because what I
found is that, yes, the porting kept it from rising, However,
it ended up redirecting that recoil into my hand, so
that I was I ended up trading off that gun.

(01:43:47):
But I'm wondering if because like the ports, that Smith
and Wesson is just a straight up port. So I
don't see why it wouldn't do the exact same thing
that the Magnaporting doing because it's just a straight up port.
I'm going to be using this gun to do a
little experiment to where you know, the ports are going
to come out at an angle, but they're also going

(01:44:09):
to be angled back.

Speaker 6 (01:44:11):
Oh okay, So so.

Speaker 2 (01:44:12):
Now is pushing down and forward to see if that
will actually alleviate some of the recoil. And it's a
forty four magnum, so I'll be able to tell.

Speaker 6 (01:44:25):
I was going to say that the price you're going
to pay there is probably increased concussion to you because
it is, you know, being directed more rare word, but
you know, so I won't know that and tell you
you know, Actually.

Speaker 2 (01:44:37):
My only experience with doing something similar to this was
with a custom bolt action fifty BMG that I built
and that we made our In fact, it was in
the TV show that Matt mentioned, and we we made
our own muzzle break for it. And I don't know

(01:44:58):
a whole lot about the engineering behind muzzle breaks. So
when I sat down with the engineer that was doing
the CAD design to see and see it, you know,
he would ask me, He's like, well, what angle should
the ports be? And I'm like, I like forty five
degree angles. It's just it's my favorite angle, you know,
forty five It's just it's it's the perfect angle. So

(01:45:20):
with let's make them forty five degrees. And and then
of course, how you know how big should the through
hole be? Well, in gunsmithing school they taught us that,
you know, uh, muzzle breaks should only be twenty thousands
over bullet diameter. That's actually a little tight on a fifty.

(01:45:41):
If you look at most fifty muzzle breaks, they don't
have that tight of a Now, the guy you're doing
the CNC, he talked me into go letting him go
fifty thousands instead of the twenty just because he was
a little nervous. And I'm like, okay, well, you know,
if it'll make you feel better. But when I went
and tested that gun, there were some people that were

(01:46:03):
standing next to me, and uh, I didn't feel any
of that burst. They did. Oh yeah, Oh it was
interesting because it brought the recoil of that fifty bmg. Well, okay,
the weight of the gun along with that brought the

(01:46:23):
recoil of that fifty bmg down to a thirty six.

Speaker 4 (01:46:27):
But you no longer had friends.

Speaker 6 (01:46:29):
Yes they were. He had burned them away, yeah, right,
But they weren't friends.

Speaker 2 (01:46:34):
They were just some other people shooting on the range.

Speaker 6 (01:46:36):
Yeah that it wasn't indoors. Yeah, it was indoors. He
blew the walls out came an outdoor range. It's interesting
you mentioned that. And I don't know if if this
is something that's that's real or not. I'm remembering this
in my mind and I don't know if it's true.
But I think when Dead Air first started and they
had their their triple port break as their key mount

(01:46:59):
muzzle device, if I remember correctly, one of the features
that they were kind of touting was the first port
was cut such that it was just a ninety degree
angle and it was just sending gases straight sideways. And
then the port right after that was angled back a
little bit, and the port ahead of that was angled
a little bit more. And I think the logic behind

(01:47:23):
that was the first the first set of gas coming
out of that first port was going to kind of
disrupt the gas that's going to be coming back later
at more of a backward angle. And I have no
idea if the science or the physics you know, supports
that whatsoever. And maybe I'm completely misremembering this, but I

(01:47:44):
think it was the dead air key ount their muzzle break, right.
I was all that if you'd have like the first
set of ports being straight up in the air as
kind of this you know, this screen, that would protect
you from some of that compression coming back. Once again,
I don't have the physics or you know, science background
to you know, to state if that's real or not.

Speaker 1 (01:48:08):
Do you remember the fifty Smith and Wisson or five
hundred Smith and Wisson.

Speaker 6 (01:48:12):
Yeah, you shoot it and you have the muzzle break
installed backwards?

Speaker 1 (01:48:16):
Oh No, it was loan that way upside down and
it was upside down, so basically it was a recoil enhancement.

Speaker 6 (01:48:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it worked. You know, this is another
interesting thing, speaking of Scott, what you were mentioning as
far as it redirecting back into your hand. And I
don't know, maybe other people that are better with revolvers
would maybe disagree with this, but in my opinion, you know,
some people, especially with Jay's I've got this LCR, I
guess some people really try to get this really high

(01:48:45):
aggressive grip on the gun. And if you ever remember
that old Ergo I think they called it the Ergo
grip for the jas like a slice of pizza, you know,
very thick, and the idea being that you kind of
get this really high grip with the gun. And ostensibly
I think the idea was to reduce muzzle rise, the

(01:49:05):
idea being the higher you could hold the gun in
line with the barrel, the less the gun would rise.
In my experience, especially with these smaller, lighter guns, I
don't necessarily want to keep the gun very flat. I
like holding the gun at a kind of reasonable lower level,
and that does allow the gun to rise up a

(01:49:26):
little bit more, which I am okay with because that's
less that is going directly into the web of my hand,
and I know Jerry mitchellik, so I'm not splitting the
trigger like crazy. My experience is I can hold that
gun lower and by the time the gun is rising,
by the time I've come back and I'm starting on

(01:49:46):
the trigger again, I can get the muzzle back down
on the target. So I think that's really interesting point
that you made, and maybe Ryan can speak to that
kind of being the expert on grips here, But I
actually don't like revolvers up really high in my grip necessarily.
Now maybe with like my match Champion or something that weighs,

(01:50:06):
you know, fifty ounces, that's less of an issue. But
on these small light guns, I like getting a more
reasonable grip and allowing that gun to lift a little bit,
and then my trigger finger is actually almost kind of
helping to drive it back down.

Speaker 2 (01:50:20):
So one of the things I'm very excited to try
out this is DL sports grip.

Speaker 6 (01:50:29):
Oh yeah, I've seen those, so I it.

Speaker 2 (01:50:32):
Belongs to a customer. He sent in his gun to
be converted to round but so that it'll fit these grips,
and he wants me to shoot in his gun for
his sites for him. So I'm gonna I'm really excited
about these because the way it feels, yeah, you know,
locking in there, Okay, I think it's going to have
that same type of affetch that it's going to really
counteract muzzle rise and help you keep control because I

(01:50:56):
mean it, it really locks in your hand, which is
something that you know, revolver shooting is difficult on all
the round edges. This has all the counter points to go,
you know, to lock your hand in and keep keep
control of the gun. So I'm excited to try this out.

(01:51:18):
When the gun's ready.

Speaker 6 (01:51:19):
Yeah, that almost looks like a modern version of like
a man here. And you know with that beaver tail,
that's not you know. The nice thing about Semi Auto's
is the way that magazine goes in and the slide works.
It gives you that nice beaver tail there, whereas with
the revolvers, like you mentioned, you're kind of have to
artificially create that in the grip if you want that
same If you want that same feature.

Speaker 5 (01:51:43):
So on the stalks and running them really high, you
know that there are some things you can do with
the stocks. Run running you know, the upper portion of
your hand real high on the backstrap. But what we've
found a lot is that angle on the front strap
is really important. And so if we're running a pretty

(01:52:11):
like to the bore axis, we're running a pretty perpendicular
front strap on a lot of our stuff. And you know,
one of the people who kind of pointed this out
was beth and Court, Michael Bethencourt over at stumb Noir.
He said, Smith and Wesson, and I think this was
kind of a light bulb moment for me, he said.

(01:52:32):
Smith and Weston in making the round butt K frame
made a mistake in changing the front strap of the
round butt K. He says, Smith and Wesson, in making
the round butt K, the only thing they should have
done was round the butt of the grip frame, and

(01:52:54):
they should have kept the grip angles on the front strap.
And I thought that was really interesting, and so I
took some of that and we started kind of testing it.
And so right here this is this is our yarrac
grip yeah for the j and so you can see
like I mean here, you know, here's here's the bore.

Speaker 2 (01:53:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:53:12):
Similarly is grabbing his course like right everybody, your hand
here on the screen. So uh, and so this actually
by the way. This is the same kind of grip angle,
but for a k frame that Nate has on his,
and he has that pine cone grip. So it's this
with like checkering all around three sixty. The whole thing's checkered.

(01:53:35):
And so what happens is that recoil it is coming
back in your hand. But as that is that kind
of tilts back, it's putting, you're able to hold it. Yeah,
k yar x. I know like everyone's everyone wants those
so bad, it's crazy. I'm like, I know, I want
to run him so but having having this kind of

(01:53:55):
vertical here and you you get the control here. Now
your pinky and ring finger is in play. And and
I'm not I'm not somebody who like dogs on other
grip companies or anything. I have tons of grips I have,
you know, all the grips Bess Hogues, all of them.
So but with Ergo, when you think of what's happening
with that Ergo grip, you're pinky in your ring finger.

(01:54:18):
They're not in the game.

Speaker 6 (01:54:19):
Oh yeah, they're not.

Speaker 5 (01:54:22):
They're not really contributing to help with the recoil the grip,
and so it might like reduce some felt recoil or
reduce some muzzle rise or whatever. But when when you
have this, your whole hand is your whole hand is
in play, and so you really can't control a lot
of that recoil right down here on the front strap
of the grip. And so I mean that was that

(01:54:44):
was just something that we found with stocks.

Speaker 6 (01:54:46):
So no, that's really interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:54:50):
And when people are are when people are considering their grips,
okay for their gun, they need to So because I
hear this, you know, I've got large hands, and I
hear the same thing for from a lot of large
hand guys that oh, those grips are just too small,
and you know, because you know, it makes it harder

(01:55:11):
for it. And it's like you're I don't think they're
really paying attention because like when when I you know,
these big you know, original cults, you know they call
them the coke bott or target grips. You know, you
got to think about how much grip strength do you
have when your hand is fully extended like this versus

(01:55:32):
how much grip strength do you have when your hand
is in here. This is where your this area is
where your strength is at. So a smaller grip is
going to allow you to apply more pressure than a
larger grip. And that's what people need to be considering
and looking at when they're selecting grips for their gun.

Speaker 4 (01:55:51):
I'd say probably the biggest complaint I see from people.
And I know, if you're watching this, Matt, you're probably
gonna appreciate that. Say it not not you, Matt, another
another Matten primary secondary. Uh, So I have a very yeah,
I have very average to slightly above average sized hands.

(01:56:11):
That's that's that's me as a whole. Everything works pretty
well for me. But if you see on these uh
on these Spiegel extended boots, which is what's on this
nineteen yeah that Matt if Yeah, okay, so uh he
complains that he's not he's not able to get enough
meat with his with his support hand on the grip.

(01:56:35):
And and I and I have heard that as well
for people that have longer fingers. Is is is a
lack of ability to just get enough meat on the
actual gun itself and not just layer one hand over
top of the other. And uh and it's not so
much a it needs to be bigger because my hand
is bigger. It's a I want to physically get more

(01:56:57):
of my hand in direct contact with the gun. So I,
you know, there's kind of and Scott, I completely agree
with what you're saying. I just wanted to bring up
I have in discussions very specifically, had people say it's
not the size of the grip as much as as
it is. I just want to get more of my
hands physically in contact with the gun.

Speaker 2 (01:57:18):
So I have my nineteen eleven. Once upon a time,
I bob telled it. Okay, it was the cool guy
thing to do when I was customizing my nineteen eleven
as a gunsmith. But what I found is that when

(01:57:39):
I do grip it, I lose a counterpoint down here
at that grip. So so it's actually hindering my grip
versus helping it. Okay. And you know back in the
day that you sell is you know, it's great for
concealment because you don't have that pokey edge. It's like

(01:58:02):
I'll deal with a pokey edge if I have a
better grip, you know. So so yeah, that's.

Speaker 5 (01:58:09):
Square frames are back in the game. Boys, I said,
square frames are back in the game.

Speaker 2 (01:58:18):
Yep, yep. And you know I had a gun come
through here that had a pair of it was a
square butt smith and it had a set of the
VZ grips on it and it's it felt really good
in hand because they were narrow, but it still had
that square button on the back so it was able

(01:58:39):
to give good pressure at the back of the palm,
and it had extra material at the front and it
just it let you really get the gun down deep
into your hand, and it really made a difference. I
ordered a set for my forty four square butts just
because I want to see how it shoots.

Speaker 6 (01:58:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:58:59):
So if we can slide back to the topic at
hand for a second, Matt, why do you keep bringing
up pictures of your.

Speaker 1 (01:59:06):
Oh no, it's not mine. This isn't mine, But I'm
just showing such a little tiny gun and the grip.

Speaker 2 (01:59:12):
It's cute.

Speaker 1 (01:59:13):
The way it's it's designed is to fill your hand
so you can shoot it.

Speaker 4 (01:59:18):
What a concept, and it does make a big difference. Yeah,
but with modernization of revolvers. One of the things I
will say, which depending on who the people are who
listening to this, it might it might make people say
that I'm an idiot or wrong or whatnot. Oh yeah,
I mean, and of course I am, so I have

(01:59:41):
tried all all of the like four or five slightly
different ways that people teach revolver grips, and for me,
gripping a gun a revolver the most efficient grip I've
come up with, as far as recoil management and everything
else is. And of course my fingers aren't long enough

(02:00:05):
to put to put them in the path of the
gas that's escaping. But I actually grab and I hook
my thumb into my support hand like so, and I'm
actually able to drive this gun harder and faster. And
it's not I just have the nineteen in front of me.
I do the same I can do the same thing
with this with this rugor but I can drive the

(02:00:27):
gun harder and faster like this with with less discomfort
with full power loads in it than using the cross
thumbs or the tuck thumbs or or the other kind
of variants that people teach. And I think that's that's interesting,
because I was like, I'm going to get serious about
shooting revolvers, So I need to look at the people who.

Speaker 1 (02:00:48):
Matt.

Speaker 4 (02:00:49):
I need to I need to look at the people
who know what the heck they're talking about. I need
I need to try the things they're saying, So I, yeah,
I understand your hand is twice the size of mind Matt,
twice the size of mine. Okay, But but I thought
about it, and I was like, I need these people
know stuff. They know lessons that were that were learned

(02:01:11):
in blood, very serious things. So I need to listen
to what they have to say, because I I really
what pictures of how I gripped the gun steve so
so with that, I've tried those grips and various degrees

(02:01:31):
of discomfort or my brain just didn't like it. The
grip I was I was using the most was kind
of like kind of like this, and it works. It
worked pretty pretty darn well. But when I shifted and
I drove the heel of this hand right into that grip,

(02:01:54):
and and it really it really allows me to to
drive the gun harder and faster. And that grip came
from the At this point, over well over one hundred
thousand rounds if you count twenty two is probably half
a million rounds I've shot through semi auto pistols. And

(02:02:18):
I was like, I'm going to fiddle with how my
hands go on the gun and see if I can
improve on these concepts for me. I'm not saying I'm
not saying doing that is the best thing for everybody.
What I'm saying is through experience with trying this on

(02:02:38):
big guns and small guns. Here's my thirty six with
Ryan's yarick on it, but same thing, and just the
difference is is instead of pushing my thumb out, I'm
just kind of driving it into the side of the
frame under the cylinder and I just I just hook
on that knuckle. It's kind of a variant of how
I have to shoot a DASA sig because if I

(02:03:02):
if I've put my thumb here, the gun won't lock
open because of how the slide lock lever sits. So
I had to learn and one of my first carry
guns that I carried for several years was a two
thirty nine, and so had I had to teach myself
index on my knuckle because if I if I dropped

(02:03:23):
my thumb on the side of the slide, it would
cause the pistol to not lock open and when it
is empty. And so it's kind of just doing this
as a variant of that. And I found that as
a as a modern or incorrect grip in a way
a lot of people would say with a revolver grip,
it works really really well to control the recoil and

(02:03:48):
of course the the other Matt and Ryan, your fingers
are probably too long to do that, but it works
really really well for how I shoot. Yeah, And I
think it's interesting. And again, from a modern perspective, how
can you tweak how you're using this tool to make

(02:04:08):
it work better for you?

Speaker 3 (02:04:12):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (02:04:13):
I mean, because it's not one size fits all, not
only with us as shooters, with the physiology of our
hands or whatever, but also the guns themselves, the grips themselves,
the recoil, the ammunition you're choosing, all these factors, and
we really need to take the time to figure out
how does this fit us best?

Speaker 4 (02:04:32):
Absolutely?

Speaker 6 (02:04:33):
Yeah, another one really quick, And I apologize. I had
to go check a bumping and bump in the evening.
I guess it's not bumping the night yet, So I apologize.
If this has already been covered. And Ryan, I had
messaged you about a pair of endframe grips and then
life kind of got crazy and then I forgot and

(02:04:54):
I missed your message, and so I apologize. I really
want them. I will have to wait. This is an
interesting thing that that I found out, and it relates
to Ryan's grips because of what he did on the
A off R one. So this is an end frame
with a set of pack myers, and if you look
right here you can see how much the grips have

(02:05:16):
a build up here on the backstrap. These grips are
basically unusable for me as far as like real shooting.
You know, I can I can slow fire this thing
and you know, be accurate and all that. But if
you if you look at like how I hold it
for me to get my finger where I want at
that first that first distal joint or whatever they call it,

(02:05:39):
to get to get the leverage on that trigger, right,
my grip is all messed up. I'm can't it all
the way in just to get my finger where I
want it. So these grips are basically unusable for me.
It'd be great for somebody else at a little bit
longer reach, either with longer fingers or bigger hands generally.
So that that's why I really want to get a
good set of frame grips, probably the same for this

(02:06:02):
gun end for that three twenty seven. But they can
also go the other way and Ryan's AFR grips turn
a jframe trigger reach into something closer to a K
frame trigger reach, which I really liked personally. So I
think the nice thing about the revolvers that's been kind
of discussed ad nauseum is how much easier and how

(02:06:25):
much further you can do customizing with these. You know,
it's not like a grip module of a three twenty
or a three sixty five, or you know, side plate
and backplate replacements on a you know, on an hk
P thirty or a VP nine or something like that. Yeah, exactly.
You can see that frame build up there. So I

(02:06:46):
just think when it comes to like this idea of
modernizing the revolver, I mean, this idea has been around
since the beginning. You know, this isn't you know, modern
in the sense that we're the first people doing it.
But there's no reason to for a set of grips
that don't allow you to shoot the way that you
want to. And that's either you know, modifying Ryan's grips

(02:07:08):
or a pair of wood grips, or simply purchasing a
pair of grips that work.

Speaker 2 (02:07:12):
Well.

Speaker 6 (02:07:12):
You know, Scott, you mentioned those Hogue jframe grips. I
have a pair of those, and to be honest, those
things punch way above their weight class and way above
their price point. I think they're what twenty five bucks.
I've got them on a six thirty eight, and that
gun is a shooter, you know. And you know, I
apologize to Ryan, but I know that he's okay. I

(02:07:32):
know that he's okay, you know, just kind of covering
this as a general matter, But man Hogue makes some
absolutely awesome grips.

Speaker 3 (02:07:40):
For me.

Speaker 6 (02:07:40):
They have a little three finger jframe grip with a
little plastic nub on the bottom. Some people will chop
that off. I've seen those grips right there for the money,
huge improvement over the stock Smith grips. If you don't
have the money to get something you know, nicer or whatever,
those are a great pair. And so I think, you
know this idea that well, I don't have seventy five

(02:08:02):
bucks and I have one hundred bucks to buy some
vz's or whatever. I think you can get a j
to be a great shooter with twenty twenty five dollars.
And honestly, I think those are even on Amazon. If
you're you know, impatient, or you know, have the desire
to shop there. They're pretty easy to come by. So
I think revolver you better get a paragrip allowed them

(02:08:24):
to shoot the way you want to, like Dave was saying.

Speaker 1 (02:08:26):
And we can expound on that a little too, also,
Nate specifically with your experience, and I can. And so
I think it was either the three twenty seven or
the six twenty seven. This is a performance center revolver
from Smith, right from the factory, and there were some
issues with the grip. There were some some angles on it,

(02:08:47):
some cutting angles. So and I got some replacements for
some other revolvers that Nate shot and cut off his
hands from a company.

Speaker 4 (02:08:56):
Yeah, and I they want to crap on any grip companies,
but would if it starts with an A and it's
pretty chances are it's got unshootable sharp angles on us.

Speaker 6 (02:09:11):
Yeah, yeah, And those are the ois for a lot
of the Smith higher end revolvers that ironically come up
pretty pretty terrible set of grips. And that's Dave on
your carry comp if you got yours with the same
grips on it, Like I was going to do a
video to show you how those grips have literally everything

(02:09:33):
done wrong to them as far as angles, fit size,
they look great, they are terrible when it comes to shooting.

Speaker 2 (02:09:41):
So these are these are the factory grips for this six,
you know, and they look beautiful.

Speaker 1 (02:09:49):
They do.

Speaker 2 (02:09:49):
They're a complete failure. Yeah, this is squared too much. Yeah,
there's too much overlap. Yeah, the fit are they are?

Speaker 6 (02:10:02):
They sharp high on the tank.

Speaker 2 (02:10:03):
The grooves don't won't line up and and look, I mean,
I okay, here's you know, some of Dave Spiegel's Look
the first finger groove, it lines up. You know. People
will say it's like, well, it's just because your hand
is different. It's like, no, there's there's ergonomics there that

(02:10:25):
allow you to do that. You know, the the you know,
the hogue again it lines up. You know, this doesn't
line up at all, you know. And they're completely smooth,
I mean completely there. There's texturing here, but it does nothing.

(02:10:50):
And it's like, i haven't even shot this gun yet,
and I'm not going to shoot it with these grips
on it. Yep, it's just not worth it. So yeah,
that that is one area where Smith and Wesson could
definitely use a little work.

Speaker 1 (02:11:07):
Yeah, but we as consumers can upgrade, and there are
options out there and not that and Ryan's not the
only option. Yeah, and and and as you guys also
pointed out, some of those hogues are fantastic.

Speaker 4 (02:11:20):
Yeah, Hogue Makes, Some of the grips are really good.

Speaker 6 (02:11:24):
Some are.

Speaker 4 (02:11:26):
VS Makes makes really fantastic grips.

Speaker 6 (02:11:29):
But some of them are great, some of them are. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:11:33):
And then so something Ryan and I have talked about. Uh,
he's far more qualified than I had to talk about this,
but I figured i'd bring it up. A lot of
these companies, and by a lot, I mean almost all
of them are limited to how you can mold or
machine the material they're using. And and that's that's kind

(02:11:54):
of a place with modernization where Ryan, I don't know
if anyone else is doing additive manufacturing, uh, to make
to make grips or stocks whatever you want to call
them for revolvers. But uh, that that really that really
changes the game. Like you said, for uh, you know,
for suppressor silencers, cans, whatever you want to call them.
That additive manufacturing has totally changed how they can direct

(02:12:18):
gas flow and everything. And that's just not something you
can do when you're cutting or drilling or whatnot.

Speaker 6 (02:12:24):
So Is this the Is this the podcast where Ryan
announces the three D printed titanium integrally suppressed revolver because
I was really interesting.

Speaker 5 (02:12:35):
Yeah, uh, I think it's possible. I think it's possible. Yeah,
with with the grips. You know, we have made changes
in Flight. I mean, so you know, we've we've done
some releases and you know, we have limited frames on

(02:12:59):
hand to test things, and we even send things out
for people to test fitment or or contours and stuff,
and we might get like a thumbs up, you know,
and all clear, and then we'll you know, we'll do
a bunch of runs and release like a couple hundred
of them or whatever, and we might get like a
theme like hey, this doesn't fit here or you know,

(02:13:21):
this has hit me in a in a spot and
we really can't we can make a change like in flight,
and it's like Tuesday's batch is done, and like Wednesday's
batch has updates, and it's like we don't have to
wait a couple of weeks on a new mold. We
don't have to wait on that like back and forth
of approvals because things are being shipped across the country.

(02:13:42):
You know, it's it's a pretty. We can make changes
really fast, and it's been fun. And you know, I'm
not going to say that our grips are the best
because everybody's hands are different, right, So, like I said,
I'm not I'm not here at Pooh Pooh on any
other companies, and they're grips and even products that we offer,

(02:14:03):
some of them might work better for people than others.
I mean, you know, I know Spiegel, he is a
huge proponent proponent of finger grooves, but I got to
say I love the smooth front strap extended boots like
that is like that's a phenomenal grip. And so it's

(02:14:25):
like one of those things where it's like we might
have some people that like love the finger grooves or
hate the finger grooves, or some people don't like the
Spiegel at all. Maybe they want like a different grip,
and and we can really kind of roll with the
punches depending on what people want and what we're getting
the best feedback from in terms of it fitting the
most amount of people's hands.

Speaker 2 (02:14:47):
So here's here's like one of the things. Uh and
it speaks right on what Ryan was saying. So comparison, Okay,
these are vs. Realmbutt L frame These are are Ryan's
spiegel boots on a on a K frame. Right here

(02:15:11):
there is a ledge that is it's not corner square,
but it's squareish. And when I grip this, I kind
of like, I kind of wish it was more rounded
and flat. And then I pick up Ryan's and guess
what He's addressed that exact area, and it's more rounded

(02:15:33):
and more comfortable, and it's like, I kind of uh.
I kind of put grips in the same category as
when people ask me, it's like, well, what kind of
holsters should I get? And usually it's new people to
shooting and they don't know, and I tell I tell
them all the same thing. It's like, here's the thing.
You're going to buy about five different holsters before you
find the one you like. After you do it a

(02:15:56):
few times, you'll kind of know what you like and
you won't have to buy five, usually just two or three.
The good news is is holster cell great at yard sales.

Speaker 3 (02:16:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:16:05):
Grips are the same way you're gonna bite, you know,
for you know, five different ones before you find those
ones that you like, and then after a few times
of doing it, you'll know what you like and you'll
know what to look for.

Speaker 6 (02:16:17):
So do you mind, Matt? I was going to see
if Ryan can I talk through your set of AFR
grips here really quick, because I think this would this
might be valuable one for me because I'm selfish and
I'm gonna do this because I because I'm curious for myself,
but also I think this would be valuable to like,

(02:16:39):
how should I be thinking through what a good set
of grips would be for me? So so really quick
quick background here. So I have these set of grips
out a four thirty two. U see, I've shot this
a fair bit, but like I mentioned, I did just
go through e C QC, so I did a lot
of one handed shooting with this, and then I am

(02:16:59):
also a left handed so I'm going to.

Speaker 1 (02:17:01):
Just so many things against you.

Speaker 6 (02:17:04):
Yeah, double check this here. Okay, So we're empty. So
obviously on the AFR grips you've got the the left
side is kind of this high horned Spiegel look, and
then on the right side it's this, it's this big
build up here on this side. Now what I found
and I decided in for a penny, in for a pound,

(02:17:24):
I shot carry Amo for the entirety almost of e
C QC. So I was shooting federal eighty five grain JHPS.
I was shooting black Hills loaded with an eighty five
grain Hornity and some other ammunition that was similar, so
so not incredible recoil, but decent recoil. And I did

(02:17:46):
actually start finding and I did actually wear in. It's
kind of scabbed over now, but I did break the
skin right here on this side where that big build
up was. So I found that this was just a
little bit too and a little bit too much of
a wear point for me as a lefty with these
particular grips, as a righty just shooting it, they feel amazing.

(02:18:09):
So in your in your opinion, Ryan, for me, should
I really be trying to take a lot of this
down and is that going to have a structural issue
where I'm going to start breaking material right here? Or
do you think that a pair of the high horned
Spiegels is just going to be better for me as
a lefty and just deal with maybe building up the
backstrap a bit or just dealing with with a bare backstrap.

Speaker 4 (02:18:32):
How does your thumb rest again, shooting it lefty?

Speaker 6 (02:18:36):
So what I've kind of been doing is I was
actually just kind of curling it and doing what Chuck
Haggard talks about the Haggard shelf on the hooks, which
doesn't really work for me as a lefty when I'm
you know, obviously, if if I'm righty, it's sitting over here,
so it'd work as a lefty, but it doesn't work
when I'm holstering it, if it makes sense. So basically

(02:18:59):
I'm just kind of using that as a ledge to
put my thumb and then just kind of holding pressure
down there is usually what it ended up being. But
sometimes when it you know, practically I would end up
curling it down here or up here when I was
shooting one handed, so it.

Speaker 5 (02:19:15):
Wouldn't mess with the integrity of the grip with what
you're doing. But what we have found in some tinkering.
So our business is pretty young, Like we we launched
i don't know, like two years ago, and we've learned
like a lot since then. Like if you look at
some of the progression with things we've released and where

(02:19:38):
we're at today, we've just been it's been full steam ahead.

Speaker 6 (02:19:41):
Oh well, I mean even the early three D you know,
the three D printed versus the centered ones. Yeah, I
know Alex has some too.

Speaker 4 (02:19:49):
Yeah, yeah, there's so.

Speaker 5 (02:19:51):
But one of the things that I've learned the most
from is actually being able to have the opportunity to
feel classic and old grips. So I actually have a
pair of Hearst grips right now that I'm actually playing with.
And and then I've I've been able to play with

(02:20:12):
a couple of different fuzzies and some of the early
Hogue stuff and what I have found specifically with the
a f r ucs and when some of this dust settles.

Speaker 6 (02:20:26):
Polymer dust you mean, yeah.

Speaker 5 (02:20:28):
Yeah, yeah, all this yeah, the uh. One of the
things that I think we we do need to start
incorporating kind of in the DNA of some of our
grips is actually changing some of the radius on the
backstrap going into the sides and that radius. I think

(02:20:53):
we can improve that by having a tighter radius around
the back and not the side on the backstrap.

Speaker 6 (02:21:04):
Yeah okay, okay, yeah.

Speaker 5 (02:21:06):
So so right now, it's it's kind of like a
more kind of like blunted radius.

Speaker 6 (02:21:12):
You're meaning do more like the and this is exaggerated,
but doing more so if if.

Speaker 5 (02:21:17):
It's like this, we need to kind of do like
more like this, and so that's what I'm seeing on
some like the Hurst and some of the old school
stocks and some of the Hope stuff. And I think
that would actually address a lot of what we have
with the right handed versus left handed, because we actually
have heard this quite a bit, like hey, you know,

(02:21:39):
these grips feel great right handed, but then when I
go to left handed, you know, it's it's awkward, you know,
And so that I think that would alleviate some of that.
And we've played around with some of those, you know,
design elements, but we're going to start incorporating that into
kind of the more some DNA of our grips and

(02:21:59):
things that we're doing. But I mean, I hate to
call it like a signature thing or whatever, but just
some of the design elements that we're incorporating into the
grips now.

Speaker 6 (02:22:08):
I can I can absolutely see how that would that
would help out. And I think maybe it's just because
of the size of the j's that like, for example,
for me on the k's, like this is a very
good taper for me, like especially especially back down here.
But I think just the just the reality of how
much small one the j's are both the both the
frame but then also just the overall grip that. Yeah,

(02:22:30):
I think that, I think, and you can correct me
if I'm wrong, but designing grips for the j's is
probably much more challenging than the than the than the k's,
not only the shootability and the weight and stuff. These
are just much less forgiving.

Speaker 5 (02:22:44):
Yeah, no, you're definitely correct, and and a lot of times,
you know, with the CA's you can do some improvement
by adding some backstrap, especially up towards the top, you know,
on on the backstrap we can add to the back,
but for k's and ends you generally don't really need too. Yeah,
whereas with jay's it makes a if you do it right,

(02:23:05):
you know, you have magic. Like if you do a
concealed backstrap on a jframe correct, it's it's magical to
shoot and it really does help with pointability and requoil reduction.
And so you know that being able to kind of
harness that for a JAY is a lot more difficult
than an open backstrap K frame or end that we
just slap on grip panels on and just build out

(02:23:27):
the horns.

Speaker 6 (02:23:28):
And almost also as an ancillary benefit, you know, building
that up also allows you to change that profile.

Speaker 5 (02:23:34):
A lot absolutely more.

Speaker 6 (02:23:36):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, And I think I remember one of
your early iterations of the Spiegels this angle right here.
I know, I try to set of them. Alex actually
bought one of the early sets, and I think he
actually reached out to you. He's like, hey, these are awesome.
This angle is way too sharp, and he just took
it down a little bit. And I can tell that
you incorporated that change into these grips.

Speaker 5 (02:23:58):
We did.

Speaker 6 (02:23:59):
Yeah, exactly like it feels exactly like he it does
on his where he took that anger.

Speaker 5 (02:24:05):
Yeah, absolutely, And that that actually was one of those
in flight changes. So you know, we were releasing those
Spiegel boots and I got Alex's feedback, and so then
I was like, all right, you know, we got Alex.
He's a he's a good shooter. We have multiple guys
that are like good shooters and reliable resources. It's not
just like you know, some Internet revolver Karen, and and

(02:24:28):
so it's like good data. And so that was an
in flight change. We could just kind of like make
that we can, we can test it iterate internally and
then it's like boom, you know, then it's released to
the public totally in flight. We iterate our version numbers
on the inside of the Grip panels for us, you know,
so people are like, hey, this thing's hitting me. I
can be like, you know, what's the number on the

(02:24:49):
inside of the panel, and we can look at what
version we're on and what changes were for the you know,
following numbers, and so, I mean, those are all things
that we've been trying to do just to adapt to
the unity in the different shooters.

Speaker 6 (02:25:02):
Yeah, I don't want this to become Grip talk, but
can I can I ask one more question of Ryan
Matt Is that all right?

Speaker 1 (02:25:08):
Of course?

Speaker 6 (02:25:09):
Okay, so you've talked about looking at some of these
old classics, you know, the hurt, the Hurts, the the Fuzzies,
things like that. What's kind of what's been your thought
process as far as are you trying to maintain a
tight product line are you trying to really expand out?

(02:25:29):
Because I mean, obviously I could see, you know, your
product lines just exploding. If you're like, okay, well we've
got the J's and we need to do the Spiegel
and their whole line. Okay, well, I really like these
yarks I'm going to do a whole line for that,
and I'm going to do some fuzzies. Okay, now we
need to do those for K's L's, Kimber's, Taurus, Cole
all the I mean, you could have you could easily have,

(02:25:51):
you know, a hundred product items, which I don't think
is the direction you're trying to go. Yeah, you had
in the hooks and now you've double of it. What's
kind of your plan to Are you trying to take
a bunch of these old school grips, incorporate and kind
of do like a Power Rangers with our powers combined
to make this really really good grip or are you

(02:26:13):
kind of trying to keep things separate?

Speaker 5 (02:26:16):
So we really have tried to think through that because
it really does become complicated when there's like kind of
eight different you know genus trunks of a grip. You know,
like we got the Spiegel, we got this Hearst, and
then we got this like buzzy line, and then we

(02:26:38):
have like Hanry Forge original type stuff. You have like
all these and then based on those, there's like all
these different options. You know, there's like full checker, partial checker,
no checkers, my.

Speaker 6 (02:26:50):
Horn, old horn covered by yeah yeah, backstrap, finger grips,
no finger grooves, hook.

Speaker 5 (02:26:57):
Yeah, boot extended, extended, boot full. Yeah, it just gets crazy.
So we're still exploring that. And I'll say, you know,
I haven't talked about this to anybody. I mean, David
doesn't even know this. Nobody knows this. So I thought
about in a way making our shop like an in
and out menu where there's a seal that's right, animal style,

(02:27:23):
that's right. So we've thought about making a like public,
very friendly catalog and then having this like secret menu
off to the side where the Revolver nerd can go
as degenerate as they want.

Speaker 6 (02:27:43):
Yeah, you're like, hey, I want the pine cone texture,
but I want it here. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 5 (02:27:48):
And so you know, we've thought about doing that, and
I really do kind of think that that's kind of
the direction that we're going to go because there's so
much cool stuff that we can do, yea, that it
would be a shame to kind of like keep all
these crown jewels to ourself and like not be able
to share them with people that would really want to
run this stuff. And you know, I look at a

(02:28:12):
lot of the old like Revolver grip ads, and some
of them actually are pretty complicated. I mean you have
like multiple pages of grips and grip options where it's
like just these slight variations and there might be like
a picture of what they're talking about, but then there's
like just lines of texts, and I don't know, I

(02:28:32):
think people's brains have just kind of like gotten, I
don't know, jello or something. They can't handle some of
those advertisements. So it's like maybe that's the secret menu
that we have is kind of going back to the
old style grip menu where you know, the revolver, you know, connoisseur,
they can really order whatever they want to order from

(02:28:52):
this kind of secret menu, whereas the user friendly one.
So I mean with our ability to do cool stuff,
I mean it's like like Scott likes those those those
g ten grips, you know, kind of the man here
in style grips. I have a pair of Hearst right
now that are like a lot like that. They're amazing grips,

(02:29:17):
They're they're phenomenal grips, and I think it's a shame
not to share that with people. I think it's an
absolute shame to just be sitting on this pot of
gold and people not be able to enjoy this, and
so I just have to figure out some type of
way too efficiently and effectively make it orderable and people

(02:29:39):
not just have paralysis when they're going through. You know,
because if you go to a restaurant and they hand
you like a menu and it's like a thirty page book,
and you're like, I food poisoning because there's no way
this is good. And but it's like you go to
in and Out and it's just a simple menu. So
I have to kind of find this balance to where
it's like we're getting a good, good thing with a

(02:30:00):
big menu. But that's for kind of the more connoisseur
type revolver or enthusiasts, and then for the normy revolver
shooter kind of dipping their toes into stuff or they
just want to grip, you know, they just they just
want a good grip that they don't have to like
go through this forty page menu of grips. So yeah,
I hope that answer your question really sure.

Speaker 6 (02:30:23):
Yeah, And I mean your manufacturing methods, you know, really
could drive you in that direction where it's like, oh,
I need a ten thousand dollars mold for every variant.
I mean, that would never happen. And I get it.
You know, when you're you're centering a block of grips,
so you're not just doing them on one paird of time.
But I'm sure there's some way that you could. You

(02:30:45):
could put a pile of those custom ones into a
single print or something like that. But yeah, you have
like a small machine kind of dedicated to the one offs,
and and obviously I would expect those to cost a
little bit more. I mean I would I would expect
it more for that, and that's not a problem. Yeah,
but yeah, I think that's phenomenal because you know, you've

(02:31:07):
sold me on this pine cone grip, Like I would
be perfectly happy putting that on almost everything, and and
you don't currently offer that on everything, but if that
was just a drop down, man, I would just be
I would be the pine.

Speaker 5 (02:31:19):
Well, so, so I watched I watched Hickcock's forty Hiccock
forty five's video and he's like, he's like, there isn't
a grip out there that's grippy en us, you know,
there isn't one with enough texture. And I'm like dog
gonet challenge accept it. And so I we were talking

(02:31:40):
about it as a family, and so we're we're gonna
do a a Wild Bill, a Wild Bill AFR special.
And if he doesn't say that this is grippy enough,
like I'm done, I'm closing up shop I had taken
as I failed at my job. So no, it's we're

(02:32:02):
hoping to do a really grippy AFR.

Speaker 1 (02:32:06):
And he has huge hands, so it better be.

Speaker 5 (02:32:09):
I know, well it'll be grippy. He wikes, he wikes
the size and the and everything going on with it,
but he wants it grippy. So well we'll answer the call.
So Wild Bill AFR here we go.

Speaker 3 (02:32:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:32:21):
So I think that another thing that goes with, you know,
modernizing the Revolver is not only the gun itself and
the grips and the and the AMMO. We could talk
about ammal, but I feel like that's a rabbit hole.
It's it's too deep for right now. But you know,
the ancillary gear and I mentioned that only as far
as I'm talking right now, specifically holsters, but that also

(02:32:41):
applies to speedloaders, speed strips, carriers for those. And I
say that it's at the front of my mind, because
Dave and I have been talking about leather rigs, and
I think that's just a great kind of a great
microcosm of how we can look at them.

Speaker 9 (02:33:00):
Oh, we have a transitional yes, yeah, So before we
talk about holsters, yeah, and modern holsters and modern carry
methods with revolvers, let's talk about.

Speaker 4 (02:33:15):
I don't know why I'm thinking my cameras over here,
monitors there, let's talk about this. Yeah, at one point,
at one point, the anecologists us see use that, Yeah,
this was pretty high speed at one point. So this
is just this is a this is a K frame
sized grip adapter, and i'mbami hip grip, I dare say.
Also low drag, very low drag, which is why I

(02:33:37):
wrap tape around it, because otherwise it was unshootable, so slippery.

Speaker 2 (02:33:42):
Yeah, so grip is still very beloved in the revolver world. Yeah, absolutely,
And if you, if you, I've had several customers asked
me to produce them.

Speaker 4 (02:33:56):
Yeah, and this is same here. Yeah, yeah, And I
mean so there are different size, shape, and quality of these.
This one came from the gun shop that makes someone.
They're not terribly expensive and you can get them to
get them right away, and it's it's okay. Yeah, you

(02:34:17):
just put it anywhere, It's okay. But this is the
filling the sinus in the revolver is something which started
happening a very very long time ago, but with you know,
with turning the gun itself kind of into a holster,
transitioning before we get into holsters.

Speaker 3 (02:34:37):
So I have.

Speaker 4 (02:34:41):
A couple variants here of what Ryan has done. Front one,
this is a three forty two with his AFR grips
on it. And if anyone is curious, this was a
powder color issue. No, Ryan didn't make me special grips
because I'm a special boy. I just happened to grab
these from him when when he was having a powder

(02:35:02):
issue and these were not died. That's all it is.

Speaker 5 (02:35:05):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (02:35:05):
And then this is going to be standard Jay boots
with a hook. This is four forty two. This is
the gun that this is. This is where I got
serious with the revolvers. When I mentioned earlier it was like,
this was the I need to figure this stuff out,
because this is a much better backup gun than a

(02:35:26):
than a little sentem auto like this. The so this
script right here, Both of these work fantastically well. I
have carried both of these just as is uh and
then my if you've seen my any of my stuff
on social media, which I know some of you have,

(02:35:47):
I'm absolutely in love with this twelve and I sincerely,
sincerely hope that one of the AFR Ellipses collabse is
a modern version of this gun slash nightguard. But I
didn't show unloading it on camera, but I literally had
this tucked. I'm wearing under armoured drawstring shorts right now

(02:36:10):
and I just had this hooked to the single string
that runs through the shorts and it carries just fine.
So for those of you that are like, oh my god,
I can't believe you're a gun guy and you would
point an uncovered triggered gun right at your junk, well,
we can make jokes about about sizing and location, which, yeah,

(02:36:33):
it's that part's not too much of an issue. But
here's the thing. We have the longer, heavier trigger pool,
but at the same time, when you put any pressure
on the outside of the gun, the spinny thing right
here in the middle of the cylinder, this has to
turn in order for the gun to fire. So when
you hook onto a waistband of a pair of pants,

(02:36:58):
and you have any sort of pressure or resistance on
the side of the gun, it makes it nearly impossible
for this gun to fire. I would not, under any
circumstances carry a gun like this in such a manner.
It's not safe. The difference is you don't have It's
not a safety mechanism built into the gun. It's the

(02:37:18):
safety of pressure on the cylinder and the long, heavy
trigger pool in combination makes it nearly impossible for this
gun to fire when it's tucked into your pants. And
like Ryan was mentioning earlier, I have I've climbed trees,
mode the yard, wrestled all that kind of stuff wearing
this just like this. The only difference is that had

(02:37:40):
ammunition in it and it has not come loose. One
thing that I have noticed. We're talking about modernization. These
grips with a grip adapt or what I had on
this gun before before Ryan got me a set of these.
And with efficiency and modernization, there is a slight difference

(02:38:01):
in the angle and size of Ryan's hook versus this
sparami hook. And it makes a big difference. And by big,
I mean like when you put it, when you put
it on a timer. I get my I get this
thing out on a timer. Every time, maybe one out
of three draws when I was really trying to go fast,
I get hung up on my waistband with these. And

(02:38:22):
that's because of the angle and shape of the hook.
So when we talk about modernization, Ryan has done just
enough with the size, shape and angle to make it
so this plus this plus your waistband doesn't cause an
interference issue when you're drawing a gun. But yeah, the
gun itself with it built in holster, it's a fantastic thing.

(02:38:43):
It's not for everybody, but it has it has its uses,
and I mean Ryan can talk about the philosophy and
design more than I can. But but yeah, this and
then we'll talk about holsters in a minute. And then
also with the hook, which I've been meaning to add
just as you were talking. The compatibility with most holsters

(02:39:04):
is it's there, there's not a conflict, So we talk
about that. So this is a city special. This is
my oldest city special. This one's probably i mean close
close to ten years old at this point. Whenever they
re released it, the only thing I did was just

(02:39:24):
a little half moon thing. It does not affect the
structural integrity of the holster and the stick the gun
in to reload. It also still works and just something
something to be aware of.

Speaker 2 (02:39:41):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (02:39:41):
So yes, revolvers, modern carry methods. Yeah, it's funny.

Speaker 2 (02:39:49):
Those grips that you were showing, the white ones there.
I happen to know the guy that has the only
pair of those grips made out of stat horn. He
carries him on a Model twelve. No, I'm sorry, I
believe it's a Model ten. Okay, snub nose and uh yeah,

(02:40:13):
it's a He called up those guys and asked him
to make them, and they did, and he said those
are the only ones that'll ever be made because those
suck to make, no doubt.

Speaker 5 (02:40:27):
The the other thing on the hook that I'll say
too that you know, I'll I've let people know this
as well. When you're carrying that on your belt line,
if you're if you're not using a draw string like
in jim shorts or whatever, A lot of times, you know,

(02:40:49):
if the belt is like this and it's sitting on
your belt line, a lot of times that belt is
covering up the trigger. So if you're using any type
of rigid belt or a thick leather belt or a
gun belt. You know that that trigger is being covered
by the belt and then the other The other interesting

(02:41:11):
thing is there was a a guy in a in
a class and he was using his revolver and they
had to do one handed reloads and a lot of
the guys had a tough time doing a one handed
reload with a revolver, except the guy that was using
a hook, because he just took and he hooked that
right on his pants and then he did his reload

(02:41:32):
with one hand and then he was able to get
back in and do his thing. So you don't have
to use the hook, and and you can use it
in a pocket holster. You can use it in a
normal holster. I mean, it's just another tool in the
toolbox that you know if you if you wanted that
option or you needed that option. It's it's good to have.

Speaker 6 (02:41:57):
And actually Ryan will ask a quick questions about the hook.
Once again, I'm representing all of those all of those
self paws out there with no voice, just arms with
you too. Yeah, the same the same reason why there's
ninety seven companies that came out with a Remington seven
hundred clone in the past five years and not a

(02:42:18):
one of them can find it in them to do
a mirror image one for me, and that's really annoying.
Or like even Ruger, come on the American ran. She
can't do a left hand in one of those, don't
you sall like a million a year? Anyway, I'll get
off my soapbox.

Speaker 5 (02:42:32):
And so the good news is we are planning on
doing a left handed hook for the LCR Okay, absolutely
viable and and so that's that's definitely a thing. But
I didn't know it until somebody pointed it out. The
Charter Arms makes a Charter Arms southpaw which is a

(02:42:54):
mirror image revolver and it's just and a total mirror
image of our so we can actually do a mirror
image of our grips and you could slap those on
the Charter Arm self paw and absolutely have a left
handed book.

Speaker 6 (02:43:10):
Oh that's interesting, I will say, yeah yeah. Like most guns,
with the exception of bolts actions, I actually usually find
that the left handed manipulations are almost better on a
right handed gun than right handed manipulations. Like for me,
especially when I'm doing reloads, I love using the right
handed gun as a lefty because I get a lot

(02:43:33):
of access on this whole side of the gun, whether
I'm doing speed strip I mean speed strips, for me,
they are so much easier than when I try to
do them right handed. It's just not even funny. Same
way with the speed loaders, the moon clips, anything like that.
I love loading revolvers left handed, so I probably wouldn't

(02:43:53):
want a mirror image gun. And then if I'm doing
the hooks, I mean, for me, I would prioritize the
hook over having a really speedy reload on a small
gun like I get that. I get that, it's like, okay,
well you can't use speedloaders anymore. Well on an LCR
like this, I'm just going to be using the strips anyway. Yeah,

(02:44:13):
and I will take the chance of hanging up maybe
the maybe the one piece of brass over here. I
would probably just say, hey, when I'm when I'm using
the hooks, I'm throwing you know, just throwing them in
the waistban of the shorts or whatever. I'm probably not
going to have. I'm not going to have a reload
with me, or if I do, it's a strip and
I'm just gonna understand it's going to be an administrative thing.

(02:44:35):
More than anything else. So I'm okay with that. That's
totally fine with me.

Speaker 5 (02:44:40):
It's good.

Speaker 7 (02:44:40):
That's good to keep updated Ryan, if you are able
to produce one for the Jfraight, I'm left handed as well.

Speaker 5 (02:44:49):
Yeah, yeah, no, there's there's a couple guys actually working
on a on a left handed like design. Like there
are people like, can we you know, would you mind
if we tried to solve this for you? And I'm like, yeah, like,
have at it, like, do all the leg work for me,
and I'll see, you know, if we can produce it.
So yeah, no, there's a bunch of people that are

(02:45:09):
very interested in a left handed hook for a jframe
And and I think if we do something with like
a concealed backstrap, it's it's potentially doable. But you know,
we'll have to see.

Speaker 1 (02:45:20):
We'll have to see would it work if it would
if it were two separate hooks around the release.

Speaker 5 (02:45:28):
Yeah, I don't know, I don't know. I like, I
these are these are the dumb things I lose sleep over,
Like I literally lose sleep because I'm like running through
all these things in my head.

Speaker 4 (02:45:40):
So yeah, doing that and then just maybe slightly extended.

Speaker 5 (02:45:45):
But yeah, like, okay, so that is a thing that
I haven't tested out. I have not done a lot
of testing on how short of a hook I could
go and it still be reliable. So that is That's
like one thing that that's kind of an ace in
the hole that I haven't really played with or explored.
But I'm open to that as well.

Speaker 1 (02:46:06):
That's just off the top of my head. But yeah,
it's dumb holsters.

Speaker 6 (02:46:10):
Yeah, So anyway, I was going off this really quick,
this idea of you know, modernizing the revolver, understanding that
a lot of these you know, modernizations are actually rediscoveries
of things that have been done a long time. And
I think I'll let Dave speak to these holsters because
I think they're really interesting, and he has them so
you can actually speak to them. But there are leather

(02:46:32):
holsters that incorporate some of the hardware updates that you know,
that that we kind of commonly see in Kayitex holsters,
you know, discrete carry clips, wedges, you know, pivoting pivoting
structures to keep the to keep the whole ster oriented
in the right way.

Speaker 4 (02:46:51):
Actually side car with a revolver, I could see that,
you know, and and and you know, extra.

Speaker 6 (02:46:57):
Leather build up and spring steel inside to keep them
open and things like that. So you know, obviously, you know,
like Dave showed, I think we all probably have at
least at least a couple of the filsters. They're great,
the dark Stars, so that when I wasn't using the
four thirty two, U see, I was using a I
was using a six thirty eight in a Dark Star holster,
which is also love the Dark Star holsters. The JM

(02:47:20):
holsters for three inch k's love those. Those are great.
But I think the idea of the leather rigs for
the revolvers specifically, I think they mesh well together as
far as you know how revolvers carry, how they're shaped,
and so you know, I've got a few leather rigs.
Nothing that's really really nice. But I've been talking to

(02:47:41):
Dave because I think he's got a company that does
a really great product, and even if you don't get
it from them, I think some of the concepts and
these holsters are really interesting and I think it meshes
really well this idea of you know, kind of traditional
things that have worked for a long time with some
modernized improvements for better carry and better concealment. So take

(02:48:04):
it away, Dave. Let me let me put you on.

Speaker 4 (02:48:06):
The spot, please, all right, all right, just just let
me rant for another ten minutes.

Speaker 3 (02:48:10):
Right.

Speaker 4 (02:48:11):
So, like Nate mentioned, Philter dark Star, there's a couple
of companies that have made for at least for at
least the small revolvers, the Jays and the lcrs and whatnot.
They've made quality Kaydex holsters for I mean quite a
while now. So a couple of the modern things that
really are great for holsters is Discrete Carry Concepts. They're

(02:48:34):
not the only company, but they're kind of they're kind
of the big game in town. As far as good
quality clips. Good quality clips are really important with a holster.
This for those of you who are watching, this is
if you don't know it, this is for appendix carry.
So this is this is front of your hips carry

(02:48:56):
for a revolver. It works very well. I have carried
this four forty two in this holster. A crap ton
works well, carries well. This is old enough that I
don't even remember what this type of what this type
of levering device is called, but they don't even offer
it anymore. It's still made, but it's got a little

(02:49:18):
wing to it. Newer ones have have a different type
of wing. So yeah, so this this whole story right here.
So I had to get it to match the tape
right this, This one is from A n R. The
letters A n R I ordered for this nineteen carry

(02:49:43):
comp The nice thing is it's there's there's just enough
that the six nine to two effinant, which is why
I said the six nine to two is kind of
somewhat case somewhat l but so again we're looking front

(02:50:04):
of the hips. It has a device to rotate, it's
got a discrete carry Concepts clip which will stay in place,
and I have a pillow edge from shoot Mastermind on
this at the moment. Carries extremely well even for a

(02:50:27):
relatively heavy gun on one clip, and it's a modern
method of carry. So if I'm carrying and this six
nine two that's a I got that just as a
practice gun. So upon carrying this, it's going to be
with this nineteen CC and then I will have this
device alongside of it sitting right about here. Now this

(02:50:50):
I just happened upon it one day. Is this how
I have it put together? This is called a reload wrap.
The clip that it comes with is decent, especially considering
the whole thing is like eighteen bucks. But you actually
size this to the loader you're using, because it's all
velcrow and it's all female velcro on the outside, so

(02:51:13):
it doesn't stick to your clothing. So you size it
and your your speedloader will sit in it. And it's
I'm a fan of firelandloaders, but you can make it
work with the five stars, with the hks. Is just
any of those? Kind of any of those? And a
couple you that asked me discord in the chat about

(02:51:37):
iwbkerry of a speedloader. This works extremely well. It stays
put and this clip has just enough tension that on clothing,
not even over belt, just on clothing, you can nab
the speedloader out of there and it won't pull this
out with it.

Speaker 6 (02:51:55):
And Dave, I was looking on the inside of that,
is there a post right in the middle that kind
of keeps things centered?

Speaker 4 (02:52:00):
Or yeah, this is another little piece of velcro and
when you put it together, the instructions are you actually
wrap that around one of the rounds that's in your
speed loader, and then you place it and then you
wrap these sides around it, so it allows you an
indexing point.

Speaker 6 (02:52:18):
Interesting.

Speaker 4 (02:52:19):
Yes, it's for it's not an expensive product, and it's
really for what it is, a very high quality product.
The for ride height difference. I have it set up
for shorter ride height, but you can take it apart
and rotate this clip and if I rotated at oneint
eighty it would ride about half an inch deeper. But

(02:52:41):
I like where this sits in comparison to the top
of your pants or your belt line. But like I said,
a reload wrap it works really well again modern carry
gear for a revolver that allows you to carry a
speed loader. And I found that if I have if
I have a revolver in a pendic position, I'm going
to have a little bit of the gap just by

(02:53:03):
the top strap of the revolver anyway, and this sits
in there and does not provide any sort of extra
anything in the way as far as how my waistline
looks or anything. It doesn't cause any extra bulges. So
big fan.

Speaker 6 (02:53:17):
I think Scott, you had a leather holster that you
lifted up. I mean I think for years and years
the common carry method would have been an IWBOWB leather
rig on the strong. But I mean also people are
obviously carrying appendix in other places as well, But I
mean leather was kind of the standard.

Speaker 2 (02:53:39):
Well, I'm I'm a strong side carry guy. That's how
I started out, That's how I trained. It's like, I'm
not going to change now. I'm generally an outside the
waistbend holster guy just because it's like I don't I
don't like the gun poking in my sight. I'm a
half year guy, so unspoking in my side is a

(02:54:01):
different situation for me. But with my like I said,
it's like, you know, when by my first you know,
carry gun, which was in nineteen eleven, you know, I
went through five different holsters before I found what I liked,
And what I found I liked was the Galco Avenger.

(02:54:21):
It works, it holds the gun. Well, the problem is
is they don't.

Speaker 4 (02:54:25):
Offer it for a revolver. That's what the combat masters for.

Speaker 2 (02:54:30):
Yeah, well, the the holsters that people have been offering,
I mean, we're kind of in in a new resid
renaissance with holsters right now, kind of yet kind of
yes and kind of no, because you're you're starting to
see guys that are copying some of those designs, like
the Avenger and doing it with smaller frame, shorter barreled revolvers.

(02:54:51):
And what I held up was, this is actually a
Milt Sparks holster that does the same type of you know,
a belt loop points as the Avenger. So you have
your primary here, you trap your belt loop loop on

(02:55:12):
your pants in the middle, and you have this one
here that pulls it in as it wraps around your side.
It's it's it's absolutely wonderful. And there's you know, the
my complaints about the Milt Sparks is he doesn't offer
it for like a cave frame two and a half
inch barrel. But there are a couple of companies out

(02:55:34):
there that now are offering things like this for those guns,
and I'm looking forward to getting those because that would
be my preferred carry. I don't like pancake holsters because
they don't hold open when you need to unholster the
gun so you can reholster the gun. I'm not a
fan of kidecks personally. Is nothing wrong with it. It's

(02:55:55):
a personal preference. I like leather. I like the look
of the leather. It's cool, it's classic, it feels good
on my hip, and I mean, man, when you when
you can get one that says, you know, something like
Milt Sparks, who is just a legend in the in
the you know, leather world of pistols. It makes you

(02:56:16):
feel good carrying it, no doubt, no doubt.

Speaker 4 (02:56:20):
So along the lines of what you were saying Scott
and what Nate said earlier, so this is this is
a whole story I got from Ronan Leather Works and
uh so he offers several designs, including outside the waistban designs.
I just wanted an AIWB carry option for this twelve.

(02:56:43):
So the way he designed this hole ster, it's got
the leather features that you'd like, and I ordered it
rough out. You can get it rough siding, rough side out,
whatever your preference is, different colors, you can customize it
however you want. It has a steel band reinforcing the
mouth of the holster so you can safely reholster, which

(02:57:04):
I think I think is a big deal because a
lot of leather holsters that are not the higher end,
higher quality holsters like Scott mentioned, will collapse on you
when you draw the gun and then you're you're in
that weird fiddly position where you're like, oh crap, I'm
pointing the gun at myself to try and get it
back in the holster, which nobody wants. It's not a
good thing. But we have our we have our standardized

(02:57:28):
clip set up, and again, discrete carry concepts. I'm a
big fan. I don't get anything from them. They get
money from me when I order clips. But the holster
came with it, and then you know, you have your
standard Uh, there's a mod wing and then he offers
a different one, and I tried the different one. It's
the one that's got the the steps, Yeah, the steps

(02:57:50):
on it, but it's really big and round here. Yeah,
and that dug into me, so I pulled it off
and put a mod wing on.

Speaker 3 (02:57:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:57:57):
I don't like those ones as much either, especially the
revolvers where they don't really need it.

Speaker 4 (02:58:02):
But you know, it was one of those he offered it,
and I was like, yeah, sure, I'll give it a try.
But I ended up just going back to a mod
wing since, like Scott mentioned, you you end up with
a pile of different holsters. So I have a lot
of hardware too.

Speaker 6 (02:58:15):
You know, Dave, I got a quick question on that.
I noticed that you've still got the you've still got
the the screwed in feature there that adds a little
bit more of a pivot on your mod wing. So
on the jays, I usually take that off because I
really don't want it canting any further in just because
it conceals so well. Anyway, this was I started doing

(02:58:38):
this and then I heard Brian Eastrich does it too.
I was like, oh sweet, I'm not like a lunatic.
Have you tried it taking off that screwed in portion
there or do you with the with the twelve? Is
the grip long enough that you do want a little
bit more of it?

Speaker 4 (02:58:53):
There's there's enough grip here that having that little bit
of extra grip rotation does help with concealment.

Speaker 6 (02:58:59):
Okay, yeah, so I have a question for you.

Speaker 2 (02:59:02):
Yes, I tried a not that holster one with a
similar setup, and I was carrying my sixty six two
and a half inch and I ran into an issue
to where it wrote, so it rotated back this way,

(02:59:25):
allowing my pants to overlap the site and the hammer. Okay,
so when I went to when I went to pull
it out, it's snagged. And that was the last day
I used that holster. It's like because the minute I
saw that it was going to do something like that.
It's it's game over.

Speaker 4 (02:59:42):
I'm not yeah, for good reason with it.

Speaker 2 (02:59:44):
So what do they do on that holster that you're
holding to prevent something like that?

Speaker 4 (02:59:50):
So the combination of how tight this will hold onto
a belt and the texture here and with having your
your belt tension adjusted properly will keep that keep the
holster from rotating in either direction. It will, it will
a tiny bit, but that's that's because your pants and
everything are moving with you. But it stays relatively indexed

(03:00:12):
because of the quality of this clip and this texture
and everything with how it sits well. And you're also
carrying a twelve, you know, the sixty six.

Speaker 6 (03:00:22):
It's still got the it's you know, it's the steel
running that's got the underlug. So it's got right.

Speaker 4 (03:00:27):
And the thing is, so there are holster makers, including him,
that offer a model that's going to have a second
clip on it, so then you can index it based
off of two clips at once. And again I this
is how I ordered the holster. So that's uh. And
and I don't have Kaydex in front of me that's

(03:00:49):
got a set up like that. But there are that's
a common feature in Kaydex holsters as well, for especially
for bigger guns, as they'll have two clips or they'll
have a single wider clip. The DCC monoblock is what
I recommend to people. But a lot of times there's
those plastic foamy clips. They're junk. But that single wider

(03:01:11):
clip where the two separate clips will keep the holster
from rotating. But with this gun and holster combination, I
have no issues with that. And then also on the
back here, so I added the wedge to it.

Speaker 3 (03:01:27):
He didn't.

Speaker 4 (03:01:28):
He didn't send it with the wedge. This is one
of the new filster wedge or exis.

Speaker 6 (03:01:32):
This is a small.

Speaker 4 (03:01:34):
But this is the same kind of setup that you
would that you would have with a Codex holster. I mean,
if you look at these two holsters, that's it's very
very similar in what you in, what you get and
the thing is you have. You have the warmth, the feel,

(03:01:57):
the slight bit more flexibility and everything out of leather
that a lot of people really like. But it's a
modern design, modern execution and Scott, like I said, he
has iWB ow B a i WB holster.

Speaker 6 (03:02:13):
He's got light light bearing red Dot compatible. It's anything
you can think of. And his list of compatible guns
was honestly pretty surprising. Yeah, for real and not just revolvers,
which is great for here because a lot of times,
you know there is a you know, there'll be a
company that makes holsters. You're like, oh, great, they have
them for revolvers, and they do it for like the

(03:02:34):
j Rush L c R and it's like, okay, awesome, Yeah, or.

Speaker 4 (03:02:40):
Maybe the Torus A five six as well, And you're like,
but I have a kframe.

Speaker 6 (03:02:44):
Yeah, but he's got a full he's got a full
complement of Yeah, especially on the Smiths, but even the Rupers,
like I almost anything that you'd want to carry on
your person. That seemed like he had something for.

Speaker 4 (03:02:56):
So Scott also, so this one, this holester is set
up nearly identically. And this setup is actually what I
originally reached out to him for. And he just he
hasn't figured out how he wants to keep the holsters,
how he likes building them and accommodate a DOT on
a revolver yet and is one of those I told him, well,

(03:03:17):
when you do, let me know, I'm going to buy
another holster from you. But this Holster still has that
single clip set up and with the this is whatever
an R uses. That's their equivalent of a mod wing
and it works just fine. This is actually slightly scalloped
h and it works extremely well. And it keeps the
gun from rotating. So as long as the Holsters designed

(03:03:41):
well the it rotating and getting caught on things should
not be an issue. And then I got one more example. Yeah, no, okay, sorry,
all right, hey, that looks like a setup that I have, right,

(03:04:01):
So this is a filter enigma. It is also wrapped
right right. This is also a modern appendix inside waist
band set up. Now with this one, just like I
say in the filter contalment workshop, I'm the average person
that everything works pretty well on. So different body type,

(03:04:24):
different body size that can vary. This is a generation
two where they change the faceplate material, which is fantastic
because this keeps the This keeps the edge of your
pants from sliding up, which was was an issue I
had occasionally. But this is a JM. Holster for my
nineteen carry comp And if you look right here, so

(03:04:47):
right beside that fixed blade, you notice right here I
have one of those Turner CNC speedloader pouches and as
you can see based on Earth, Yeah, this is a
bit more than a sidecar. I guess the nice thing
is this flexes and doesn't break like a sidecard. That's right,
that's right. But this sits in that void which is

(03:05:09):
created by the revolver. And I have done very athletic
things wearing this exact setup, and that speed loader has
not budged. So the Turner product's fantastic. That reload wrap
I mentioned fantastic, and if you look on the back here,
I also have one of those Filster wedges. So wedging

(03:05:32):
and grip rotation are both very important things when you're
talking about front of the hips carry modern more modern
concepts when it comes to Holster concepts, but when we're
talking about modern revolver, I have a kframe with a dot.
I'm carrying it in Contex appendix in a Filster Enigma. Yeah,

(03:05:54):
and we're talking about modern everyday carry stuff. It works
really well. The gun shoots well, I'm a big fan
a what's that accessible that?

Speaker 1 (03:06:05):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (03:06:07):
Yeah. I was fiddling around with with Caleb's Revolver DJN
standards with this setup yesterday morning, and it's a little
spicy out of this setup. When I when I switched
to an outside waistban holster much more accessible this this
reply with with this, I was having a little bit
more difficult time with those time standards. But but but yeah,

(03:06:32):
when we when we talk about holsters, if you have
a K frame, if you have a Trus eight five six,
if you have an L frame, if you have a
J frame, if you have an l c R g
P one hundreds, s P one oh one's kind of
the kind of the most represented segment of revolver sphere,

(03:06:56):
you can get a modern holster setup for it. And
that really helps. That really helps if you want to
carry a gun like that. I like this twelve. I
have guns this size that holds that hold twelve or
fifteen rounds of nine millimeter. And yeah, I'm shooting pretty well,
but I just freaking like this gun. And when I'm

(03:07:17):
bumming around my house and I have this thing tucked in,
you know, tucked in with the hook, just tucked in
some drawstring waistband shorts, it's I mean, good lord, if
someone attacks me in my house up a mile long
gravel road, I mean, there's such a sequence of events
that has gone terribly when i'm home, I'm I'm Joe

(03:07:39):
citizen when I'm out in uniform. Yeah, I want full
size gun. I want all the ammunition because I'm going
to where trouble is when I'm home with backup in
radio and exactly exactly all of that stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:07:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:07:58):
And then also looking at their website, I clearly see
talking about ruinin leather. Uh that is clearly your gun
right there.

Speaker 4 (03:08:06):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:08:07):
I sent him.

Speaker 4 (03:08:08):
I sent him a picture and I was like, Hey,
the holsters working great, And he's like, wow, can I
use the picture.

Speaker 1 (03:08:12):
With a complete with Ryan's hook that's correct and.

Speaker 6 (03:08:17):
His Detective Special speedloaders?

Speaker 7 (03:08:19):
Right?

Speaker 3 (03:08:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (03:08:23):
So I posted that picture and some guy was like,
how come you're using a Detective Special speedloader with a
K fram Does it work? And I was like, in
the politest way possible, I was like, I wrote my
initials on it. Yeah, Okay, I have talked long enough.

(03:08:43):
Someone else needs to talk now. I've you just you
just gotta let me rabbit hole.

Speaker 6 (03:08:47):
Oh go ahead, Ryan, all right.

Speaker 5 (03:08:50):
I I just want to I this is the part
where you asked, like, you know, Ryan, you have all
these things that you come out with. I just just
wanting to show you these Hurst stocks, okay, because like
for me, it'd be like a crime against humanity to
not like release these to the public. All right, So

(03:09:12):
these are it? Okay, So this is a model fifteen
two inch, but you have a concealed backstrap on the back,
open on the back on the bottom. But look at
the contour on this, and I mean it it feels

(03:09:40):
so good, like all all of this contour right here
just locks right into your poem. And I mean I
would hate to I would hate to not be able
to release those and have other people enjoy them. I mean,
they're just phenomenal, like.

Speaker 4 (03:10:00):
That would be for hiccock that looks Yeah, but the.

Speaker 5 (03:10:05):
Flare on the bottom here, yeah, I mean it's supporting
your palm. And then you think of this and Pinky
and all your palms. Well, I mean they're just they're
just phenomenal. I mean, so yeah, it's a shame that
if you wanted to run something like this you'd have
to find a pair of originals and pay a thousand

(03:10:27):
bucks or whatever they cost. You know, when we have
the ability to release gold like this to the public.

Speaker 4 (03:10:34):
Yeah, And the thing is, your your grips are going
to be made of a material that if if I
slam this into something and put a ding in it,
I'm not going to cry.

Speaker 3 (03:10:46):
I know, I know.

Speaker 5 (03:10:48):
Yeah, I mean, because yeah, you could. Then you could
take a pair of grips like this at a polymer.
You can run it in a class, you can bang
it on whatever you want. You can be rubbing against
Kong creat walls or shooting tables or whatever and not
be like, oh man, there goes. There's heirloom wood grips
that will never be able to be replaced. So yeah, yeah,

(03:11:14):
that's cool.

Speaker 1 (03:11:17):
We've been going over three hours. Yeah, I think I
think Nate's going to turn into a pumpkin.

Speaker 6 (03:11:22):
No, I'm good. I was just gonna say, I think
just like final thoughts from me, because I don't like.

Speaker 1 (03:11:29):
Oh, before you do, let me say my favorite thing.
Make sure you're supporting those Make sure you are supporting
those sources that you have found to be beneficial. These
guys have been sharing wonderful information and they're going to
provide some final thoughts here. Pay attention to who they are,
what they represent, because you probably need to give them

(03:11:51):
some likes. You need to give them some shares. That
goes with the primary and secondary stuff.

Speaker 6 (03:11:55):
Nate, Well, I was just going to say, I've really
liked this because I think sometimes people will go out
and shoot a jframe thirty eight. Let's say they go
pick up a four forty two, a Taras eight fifty
six whatever, and it has poor grips on it. They

(03:12:17):
put thirty eight plus p in it because that's what
the guy at the gun store said they have to do.
They have bad sites, which everyone who knows me, I'm
perfectly fine with just the regular gutter sites, but they're
unusual sites for a person who's used to a semi auto.
They're just trying it out, so they go by a

(03:12:38):
low quality nylon fits every revolver from an iframe to
an X frame, and it's not comfortable, it doesn't conceal well,
and basically they set themselves up unknowingly for failure, I think.
And so you know what I've tried to discuss today
as it relates to the modern revolver, I really think

(03:13:00):
of that more as the more usable revolver, you know,
the more that the actual service revolver. And you know,
obviously we've talked about this on a lot of shows.
How you know police, you know law enforcement, even the
military has had great success in the past with standard

(03:13:21):
revolvers and many of those with fixed sights, you know,
six round five round capacity going and doing some really
really serious work against some really serious people. And so
I think this idea of a modern revolver is setting
up a revolver for success for your situation. Now, does

(03:13:42):
that mean that we're buying the latest and greatest and
discounting all of those lessons that were learned over decades
and all of that blood that was you know, that
was spent to learn things. No, absolutely not. But I
think this has been a great a great idea discussing
the concept of taking some of those lessons and when
the equipment is perfectly serviceable as is without any changes,

(03:14:06):
we're going to accept that we're going to use it
when it fits into our use case. When we have
a more modern option as far as a set of grips, ammunition,
holster setup that works better for you. That's what modernizing.

Speaker 5 (03:14:22):
The revolver is.

Speaker 6 (03:14:23):
And so I think, you know, for me, you know,
I'm not law enforcement, military or anything like that. I'm
carrying it for myself, and so I have a different
use case maybe than other people where you work, how
much of an NPE you're in when you're at work
or around life. You know, what are those consequences, what

(03:14:44):
are the risks that you are that you're expecting to
be dealing with. I think all of that plays into
your own personal decisions about what revolver might work for you.
Maybe it doesn't, you know what, in your situation. Maybe
you say, hey, revolvers little awesome. I'm not going to
get one, or I'm not going to use one for Carrie.
Cool awesome, no problem. But I think for me getting

(03:15:09):
a revolver that's good, getting ammunition that fits that use case,
getting a good holster that allows it to be comfortable
and concealed and safe, getting that ancillary gear that we
need it allows you to have success, you know, and
it turns into that. You know, It's interesting because sometimes
we rate the oh, well, the gun store guy just says,
you know, get the old, get the get the little Lady,

(03:15:31):
the pink revolver. But then on the other side, we
also sometimes say, hey, this revolver might be a pretty good,
you know, pretty good option for someone like that, And
the difference there is setting that person up for success.
You know, we're putting wad cutters in the four forty two.
We're not putting gold dots necessarily. You know, we're getting
a good set of grips that allow them to shoot
it comfortably, or maybe getting a little bit of work

(03:15:52):
done on that gun. You know, we're going to send
something off to Scott and get a trigger that's a
little bit more manageable for someone who's not super experience.
And so as far as modernizing the revolver, I think
that's what it is, is proving that it's still viable
in some cases. And when it is, you know, you'd
use that gear to set yourself up for success, obviously

(03:16:15):
with the equal amount of training as well.

Speaker 1 (03:16:17):
So absolutely, and to reinforce it. It doesn't have to
be a modern revolver because those model twelves that aren't
in production right now. Man, I have been. I have one,
but I want one like Daves.

Speaker 2 (03:16:32):
Two inch model fifteen, one of my favorites.

Speaker 6 (03:16:36):
Cheater Snubs, Cheater Snubs.

Speaker 1 (03:16:41):
So Nate's now given his final thoughts, but he didn't
say where people can find him. I don't know if
he wants to be found.

Speaker 6 (03:16:48):
Oh, I don't really make money in this industry. I
have an Instagram page, but it's mostly Revolver stuff. So
I guess if you're into that, then cool revolver stuff.

Speaker 1 (03:17:02):
Yeah, but what with that Instagram page?

Speaker 6 (03:17:04):
B oh, I name, it's just Nate Osbourne my name,
but I didn't want to use a crazy name, so
I just did like some random underscores until I found
a username that hadn't been you know, hadn't been taken yet,
so it's like Nate two underscores, Osbourne one underscore or
something like that.

Speaker 4 (03:17:21):
I don't know.

Speaker 6 (03:17:23):
I'm not really what you call a real social media tycoon.
So if you can find it, great or message me
if you want to see my ramblings and my weird
Revolver videos that I do.

Speaker 1 (03:17:36):
And you've been in a lot of primary and secondary videos,
not just the podcast but the shooty ones too.

Speaker 6 (03:17:42):
Yeah, and I guess I will say I will post
on Instagram hopefully. I'm working on an ar for e
C QC. So if you're interested in things like that,
and then you're also interested in, you know, kind of
taking revolvers to a class where those aren't typically going
to be the gun that you would take, and kind
of how I manage that as far as you know,
ammal management and and gear and stuff like that. I'll

(03:18:05):
probably be trying to do a little bit on that,
so if you if you follow me, you might see that.
Maybe that's useful for you, maybe not. I've done a
couple of videos on passing qualls that are designed for
semi autos, but you want to do it with a
revolver because you have to pass that qual to carry
it as your off duty gun, which I was doing

(03:18:27):
with a buddy of mine, and just just random stuff
like that.

Speaker 4 (03:18:32):
So cool. Dave DNA guns, Yes, yes, so that's Delta
November Al for the letters DNA guns. If you have
a transferable machine gun that needs work, we got you.
And we also do we also do rentals, events things

(03:18:55):
like that. It's good. I don't know that we've done
I don't know if we've done one of those yet,
but we have. We have done some bachelor and bachelorette
parties and you know, things like that. We're not against
the idea of blowing up a car. We've done it
before a number of times.

Speaker 1 (03:19:13):
So yeah, we do.

Speaker 4 (03:19:13):
We do events, and we work on transferables and that
kind of stuff. That's where like working on transferables is
how I got comfortable like taking a gun like this
apart and doing what I want to it, and that's filatto.

Speaker 1 (03:19:27):
So it's amazing.

Speaker 4 (03:19:28):
Yes, yes, absolutely, you know my my special version, Dave.

Speaker 6 (03:19:33):
Is that a post sample Model twelve or did you
have to law letter that.

Speaker 4 (03:19:36):
Or oh no, no, see I made it, so it's
a post sample. Okay, So I Nate covered a lot
of the stuff that that I would have mentioned. One
thing I will repeat that I mentioned before is even
if you're not interested in carrying a revolver, having one

(03:20:01):
as a training tool is a great idea. I've mentioned.
This tour is six' nine. Two it's not a carry.
Gun it's not going to be a carry. Gun it's
a practice gun for. ME i bought it BECAUSE i
get nine millimeters m from my department AND i CAN
i can feed my revolver degeneracy AND i can shoot this.

(03:20:22):
Thing and ALSO i got to learn about dealing with moon,
clips which can be very nice or can be the,
devil depending on the, clips, which by the, way whoever
mentioned the plastic? Clips, Nah now that's going to be
a note for.

Speaker 3 (03:20:37):
Me.

Speaker 4 (03:20:37):
Dog they they don't hold the rounds, well so they
tend to fall out.

Speaker 3 (03:20:46):
In the.

Speaker 4 (03:20:46):
Gun there in the, gun they're. Okay but but outside
of the, gun like you have, it you try to
put on a post or anything else like, that and
they tend to lose rounds if you jiggle. Them and
the uh like the tour clips that come with these
that have the two little hands on. Them it's based
on what other people have said about. Them they're still

(03:21:07):
in the box for, this AND i got These smith
clips which work. Fantastically revolvers are great training. Aids they're
fun guns to fiddle. With with, revolvers you can do
things like. That that's the equivalent of a revolver press,
check by the, way a high primer, check so unlock

(03:21:31):
the cylinder and you can spin it to ensure that
it's going to move freely with the ammunition loaded in.
It that's the revolver equivalent of The Ford serrations press
check That nate mentioned. Earlier but great training. Tool they're
fun to. Shoot it's a branch outside of all the
tactical stuff that allows you to expand allows you to.

(03:21:55):
Learn and they're fun to work on if you're not.
Scared AND i DON'T i, MEAN i don't mean work
on in the way that people buy like apex parts
and bolt them together and say they have a, glock build,
that and then it doesn't work because none of its
oam glock stuff and all of a, sudden blocks aren't
reliable when there's no actual block parts in. It that

(03:22:16):
applies to these. Two Like scott, Mentioned scott's a smart.
Guy he knows way more about revolvers THAN i. Do
if you put a bunch of weird crap inside, here
chances are your volver is not going to work so.
Well so before you do really weird stuff to, these
talk to someone Like scott who's an. EXPERT i JUST
i know enough to be, dangerous AND i know enough
to know to send people to smart people Like. Scott. Yeah,

(03:22:42):
yeah any further stuff on where you can be found,
said we said d AND a. Guns, yeah you can
look UP dna guns On facebook And instagram and. YouTube
About facebook can't decide whether or not even though we're AN,
ffl whether or not we can have an active page
on any of the meta platform. Stuff and, yeah there's

(03:23:05):
oh one more thing About. Scott scott has videos that
he has joked. About only people who are the nerdiest
of nerds will actually watch his. Videos but if you
want to know what the internals of a revolver should look,
like it's what about an hour and a half or

(03:23:26):
two hours between the several.

Speaker 6 (03:23:27):
VIDEOS i sat the guy and watched.

Speaker 2 (03:23:29):
Him there's just a. Nerd there's six videos on my trigger.
Job each one is between thirty and forty five. Minutes, Okay,
well there's the type of guy that used to like
The New Yankee workshop with Norm. Abrams you enjoy my? Videos?

Speaker 4 (03:23:44):
Yeah normal And. Scott scott's a really smart. Guy he
explains what he's doing really. Well there are there are
other people out. There there's a guy who's got A
gp one hundred video that's like three and a half
hours long where he goes through the nusha of how
every part. Is matt's seen that video every like autistically

(03:24:06):
every part of THE gp one. Hundred there are sources
out there just be very, cautious AND i Think scott
will thank me THAT i brought this. Up if, anyone
regardless of the regardless of the type of, revolver whether
it's got a side plate or, not if anyone tells

(03:24:27):
you to stick a tool inside the revolver to pry anything,
out immediately stop watching what they're. Saying the information they're
giving you is going to cause you to break your.
Gun just a piece of, advice don't ever put a
tool inside of a gun.

Speaker 2 (03:24:42):
To pry on.

Speaker 4 (03:24:43):
It, please don't ever do. That, yeah use players and just.
Yank in a lot of cases you might cause less
damage than sticking something inside.

Speaker 6 (03:24:52):
Prying, WELL i will, say, maw WHEN i broke your,
GUN i did have to do a little bit of
that because side the pierced primer bent the firing pin retaining,
pin and that was that was an.

Speaker 4 (03:25:05):
Adventure so did you have to pluck it out with
a pair of.

Speaker 6 (03:25:08):
FLYERS i sent it to a gunsmith BECAUSE i didn't
want any part of that business.

Speaker 1 (03:25:15):
And to reinforce also because we talked a little bit
about the training. Aspect the tourist, toros THE a fifty
six and the three twenty seven's have been fantastic to
give to a new. Shooter dry and let's watch the
dot on that double action trigger Press where is your dot?

Speaker 4 (03:25:32):
Going? Yeah even? Better yeah you. Can you can have
them on sale for about three hundred. BUCKS a guy
that's that runs in our, circles who's a really good,
guy is one of the owners Of Gideon, optics and
you can get one of his optics for a little
bit over one hundred. Bucks So gideon on on both of.

Speaker 1 (03:25:54):
Them there you, Go and so for that just.

Speaker 4 (03:25:57):
Fine, Yeah so for the cost of reasonable quality semi auto,
pistol you have a red dot training gun that's a
revolver that's going to give you that trigger you can,
work give you all those manipulations and, everything so you
can decide whether or not you want to go full
degenerate or you just want to dip your toe in
the water to have a different type of gun to

(03:26:18):
train One, traineah and not to open a can of.

Speaker 1 (03:26:21):
Worms but between the thirty eight and the three twenty,
Seven i'd say three twenty seven just because the difference
for the different options in the ammunition for the real
like so for my four year, Old i'd be comfortable
with him shooting a thirty two long little thirty two
long wide, cutter, absolutely.

Speaker 6 (03:26:42):
But, yeah and for the spurless, hammer which is the
just the superior.

Speaker 4 (03:26:48):
Option, scott.

Speaker 2 (03:26:53):
This has been a really nice. Conversation. YEAH i don't
know THAT i have anything more to add to the overall.
CONVERSATION i would say one thing that we maybe didn't
touch on enough is. Training, yeah AND I i you,
know if you're going to get started in, revolvers go

(03:27:14):
get get good. Training talk to somebody Like. Tom because
not only as much AS i want to say, say,
yeah send me your. Gun you, know oh you just
bought that, Revolver, yeah send it to. Me i'll make
it better for, You you'll never. Believe the more you're
trained on, it the more you're going to know what
you want to improve on the, gun which will make

(03:27:37):
all that much more difference because then you're not just
trusting me to say this is going to make your gun.
Better you're going to know your gun and you're going
to understand what you're looking to make. Better so that
sort of training is vitally. Important other than, that yeah you,

(03:27:58):
can you can find ME Vdc firearms dot, com UH
Vdc firearms on YouTube Vandorsten Custom firearms On. Facebook i've
got a bunch of new videos Planned i'm trying to get.
Out doing videos is not my primary. Job so people
just have to be patient BECAUSE i actually don't make

(03:28:21):
money directly off of. VIDEOS i make money off of
the guns you guys send, Me so that's that's where
my priority. Is And i'm sure my customers appreciate THAT
i put them as a priority. There, yeah so, yeah
but thanks for having me. On i've enjoyed the. Conversation thank,
you thank.

Speaker 1 (03:28:38):
You let's see. HERE i guess we have to talk
To ryan.

Speaker 5 (03:28:45):
Why i'd just like to, say you, know thanks for
having me. ON I i popped in the room and
saw everybody in, here as, like oh, man this is
gonna be a great conversation. Tonight you. KNOW i THINK
i think this conversation like that we have right now and,
TONIGHT i think it's gonna be one of those ones

(03:29:06):
where we like look back on a few years from
now and we're, like, DANG i can't believe all the
advancements that have happened in like the next three you,
KNOW i Really i've said. IT i THINK i said
it on another spot as. WELL i think we're kind
of in like this New Golden, era revolver renaissance type

(03:29:28):
situation WHERE i think there's a bunch of clever guys
come up with a bunch of cool stuff that you,
know three years from now will be like you, know
at that at, tonight we had no idea what was,
coming and so you, KNOW i think it's, exciting and you,
KNOW i hope that we're able, to uh to you,

(03:29:51):
know keep just enjoying what's coming out and get better
at what we're doing and become better. Shooters and we're
competent all, around whether that's with reel guns or plastic
guns or you, know whatever it.

Speaker 7 (03:30:05):
Is so.

Speaker 5 (03:30:07):
In terms of where you know we can be, found
we're Hanry forge pretty much. Everywhere so H A M
R E F O R G. E so we're Hanry
forge on you, Know facebook And instagram And, twitter and you,
know hit us up on our, website henryforge dot. Com
we have contact page and you, know our shops on.

(03:30:28):
There but you, know we're real open with talking to.
People we try not to be a big crazy corporation
where you have to talk to a robot to get
to a person and and all that. Stuff so we
try to be pretty responsive and you, know we're we're
always open to feedback and good. Ideas so you, know, that's,
uh that's who we. Are and, again thanks for having us.

Speaker 1 (03:30:51):
Cool AND i did reach out To jason over At
Lipsy's first to, say, hey we're we're talking about you
just to see if you want.

Speaker 4 (03:31:01):
To jump on Oh, man he speaking of the future
of the. Directions we may be, going.

Speaker 5 (03:31:10):
Yeah, Yeah, No jason's. Awesome, Jason he's, uh he is
a national treasure in The revolver. Game so, yeah that.
Guy that's one of those footnotes in The revolver history
books where it's like and then you know chapter Nineteen
jason At lipsy's released and all this magic into the.

Speaker 6 (03:31:29):
Land so, yeah he was probably Like, Matt i'm too
busy cyberbullying firearms companies to get them to build WHAT i.
WANT i can't get on your show right now.

Speaker 4 (03:31:39):
EXACTLY i have a. Comment but if you're Listening modern
twelve Or, nightguard we need we need a new we
need a NEW k. Frame it's like, this absolutely need.

Speaker 6 (03:31:50):
It, Yes dave AND i will buy all of.

Speaker 5 (03:31:53):
THEM i want to, hammerless, lightweight. Hammerless, Yes i'm for.

Speaker 4 (03:31:59):
It put that hump on there, Completely i'm for.

Speaker 6 (03:32:02):
It bring back the two four to, two bring back
the bring back.

Speaker 5 (03:32:07):
Everything at two four two and two h and.

Speaker 6 (03:32:10):
R Oh, man that'd be what probably an eight. SHOT
i don't think you can squeeze nine in, there BUT
i bet you could do.

Speaker 5 (03:32:17):
Eight tom.

Speaker 4 (03:32:23):
Final, thoughts, PLUGS i think you guys covered it pretty.

Speaker 6 (03:32:25):
WELL i, uh.

Speaker 7 (03:32:30):
You can reach me At American Firearms academy dot. Com
tom At American Firearms academy dot.

Speaker 1 (03:32:36):
COM i take.

Speaker 7 (03:32:37):
CARE i Teach Jeff cooper classes out of The Whitnington.
Center they have a revolver class this fall at my
range here In North texas and maybe at Witting to
next spring and nothing id Of hole next spring as.

Speaker 3 (03:32:52):
Well we're not sure. Exactly i've got to get.

Speaker 7 (03:32:58):
With No sparks About lolana And idaho and see what
kind of format we want to we want to want
to do just a a class or do we want
to do a?

Speaker 3 (03:33:07):
Shoot we'll see.

Speaker 1 (03:33:08):
Hm, Cool, well big thanks to the, panel wonderful, conversation wonderful.
Discussion if you're listening to this on in podcast, form
it is completely on. YouTube if you're watching it on,
YouTube you can listen to these also on probably your

(03:33:30):
whatever your favorite podcast format, is whether It's iTunes Or
spotify or you name it where we're. Both big thank
you to the Sponsors Lucky, Gunner Filster. Walther also big
thank you to The patreon and the network supporters.

Speaker 3 (03:33:49):
On the on the on the.

Speaker 1 (03:33:50):
Website if you want to Support if you want to
support this, stuff go to patreon dot com, Slash primary
And secondary got all kinds of great. Stuff this was
episode four hundred and. Thirty this was a let's see
here we are three and a half, hours so much
good information and it is free for your.

Speaker 4 (03:34:12):
Use and we didn't even talk About, ammo.

Speaker 1 (03:34:15):
And we didn't even talk About, ammo and we and
also and we didn't talk about thirty TWO acp with. Suppressors.
YEAH i love putting this stuff together At High Desert.
Cartridge wonderful, company wonderful. Guy steve's. Great as a matter of,
fact my episode with him was so much, fun and

(03:34:37):
it went into a direction THAT i really appreciated because
we started really talking About termina, billistics which there's not
enough discussion of.

Speaker 4 (03:34:45):
That but, yeah we have so much of this great.

Speaker 1 (03:34:47):
Stuff it's for your. Use make sure you're just given
those like subscription. Shares when these guys and When primary
And secondary OR i guess me share something that helps,
you make sure you're sharing, it because if you're not sharing,
it those algorithms aren't and so no one gets to see.

Speaker 4 (03:35:02):
It and how great it would.

Speaker 1 (03:35:05):
It be if we're all at the same level with
our understanding and knowledge of this. STUFF i went shooting
today with so at my. House we're installing our yard right,
now and the contractor happens to.

Speaker 4 (03:35:19):
Be a bit of a gun.

Speaker 1 (03:35:20):
Guy, WELL i took him to the range with his two,
sons and it was just a fantastic opportunity to.

Speaker 4 (03:35:29):
Enjoy this.

Speaker 1 (03:35:30):
Together and man did they like To they enjoyed The
suppress twenty two or the suppressed Tom, kat but also
other things like like The mini fix and other, stuff
and just the opportunity to share this and to share
some knowledge was. Wonderful and so, yeah if you're if
you're not being that good, ambassador it's it's.

Speaker 4 (03:35:54):
Time it's.

Speaker 1 (03:35:55):
Time SO i think that is pretty much. It next
Week i'm going to be out of town at an
alert instructor, school so we'll see what we'll be doing with, THAT.

Speaker 4 (03:36:06):
I.

Speaker 1 (03:36:07):
Think, UH i think it still might be early enough
WHERE i might have a four year old who's still,
awake So i'm gonna go check on.

Speaker 4 (03:36:13):
Him so with that in, Mind i'll talk to you.
Later see, you.

Speaker 6 (03:36:19):
GUYS h

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P&S ModCast 430 - Modernization of Revolvers

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