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July 15, 2025 147 mins
Primary & Secondary ModCast

The panel discusses Task Force 70, a new nonprofit focused on providing needed foundational training to police.

Host: Matt Landfair

Panel:
John "Chappy" Chapman
Erick Gelhaus
Steve Shields
Warren Wilson

Episode sponsors:
Lucky Gunner - https://www.luckygunner.com/
Phlster - https://www.phlsterholsters.com/​
Walther Arms - https://www.waltherarms.com/

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Everyone Mettlanfa here with primary and secondary. Welcome to modcast.
The episode number four thirty three, the topic task for seventy.
It's one of those new nonprofits. It focuses on providing
foundational training to law enforcement. And it doesn't matter if

(00:23):
you're a twenty year vet, it doesn't matter if you
are brand new. Everyone needs some form of training. And unfortunately,
depending on your agency size, there's a possibility some things
might slip under the cracks. And that goes for if
you're in a huge agency, that even goes goes happens
if you're with a little tiny agency. I started up

(00:46):
a bowl in one of the Facebook groups asking agency size,
what are the deficiencies in training? And it was very
interesting to read so many issues, many problems, and obviously
there's no centralized source for standards that can be problematic.

(01:08):
And with that in mind, we have some centralized concepts
that we all work by the Constitution. We have these
basic premises that we all we all uphold and we
all enforce. And if we're all on different pages with this,
we're going to run into issues. We're going to we're
going to violate people's rights that goes completely against what

(01:31):
we do, what we're supposed to be doing. Unfortunately, also
in speaking to some newer officers, they haven't even thought
about that aspect of being a police officer. But I'm
going to stop talking. I'm going to have these guys
do some do some intros before we go there. Today
is July eighth, twenty twenty five. These guys are going

(01:53):
to be talking about where they can be found, what
the backgrounds are, stuff like that. Pay attention to what
they say, pay attention to where they're, where they're from,
what they represent. The reason I say this is because
those algorithms that we all talk about and we all
love don't work in our favor. Because there are firearms
behind me right now. Automatically, the algorithm is not going

(02:16):
to be our friend for this episode. Because of the topic,
the algorithm is going to work with us. So you
probably all you need to hit like that's other's to it.
If you like the content. When we're done with the conversation,
you need to hit share. And if you haven't already subscribed,
you need to do that. But more importantly, with these algorithms,

(02:36):
all these guys are providing some absolutely fantastic services. Some
fantastic resources, and if you like what they say, you
need to find them and you need to follow them
on social media. When they're sharing stuff that helps you,
you need to share that because those algorithms are not
doing any of us any favors, and you can help

(02:57):
bridge that gap, whether you're listening, whether you're viewing, and
speaking of which, if you are viewing this, this is
going to be available in and audio form. It's available
wherever your favorite audio podcasts are, and if you're listening,
this is also on YouTube. So that's pretty much it.
My backgrounds in law enforcement, been doing the cop things
since last century. I don't know. If I didn't have

(03:21):
law enforcement as my option as my career, I don't
know what I would have done. Firefighter maybe, I don't know,
but it's a blast, and it's an opportunity as a
police officer to always learn and always grow. And if
you're not approaching that job like that, you're probably falling
behind in some categories. And that also kind of ties

(03:42):
in with Task four seventy. So let's get backgrounds from
people we're going to be starting with that Warren Wilson person.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
Why, well, I'm Warren Wilson. I'm been a cops full
time since the mid nineties. My first job was a
part time gig at a place that had about three officers,
and my second was a full time job and another department,
the one I live in now, that had about three

(04:12):
officers two to three full time and a few reserves.
I'm now at. I'm at another department that's less than
one hundred. And we can definitely do some talking about
small town stuff.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Here, absolutely absolutely, and it's yeah, there are some really
cool nuances to a small town versus a large agency,
and we can talk about that as well.

Speaker 4 (04:34):
Eric so Eric Delhouse retired for almost six years now,
did twenty nine years full time with a pretty good
sized date Sheriff's office out in northern California. We are
anywhere from two hundred and fifty to three hundred sworn
on the l E side. During my time there, worked
a variety assignments, finished out as a patrol sergeant while

(04:57):
supervising the use of force in the field. A programs
do a bit of teaching on the side, with an
emphasis on both research and.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
Legal issues as it applies to use of force.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
Good deal, Steve.

Speaker 5 (05:17):
In Law enforcement for twenty seven years. Started with the
Forest Service. Rode a horse for a living, back country
doing law enforcement for a couple of years on horseback.
Best job ever had. It was seasonal, and I also
didn't didn't make the cut because of affirmative action, So
got into real law enforcement. I guess well it was

(05:37):
not real. That was real stuff there, but small departments,
real rural county. Retired ten years ago. Taught at the
State Academy for three years firearms. Help rewrite the curriculum
for the academy in the post academy training as well
as certify instructors for law for firearms. Did forensics for

(06:02):
five years. Did my own research on ballistics based on
the autopsies that I was attending to still do firearms training.
I own High Desert Cartridge Company animal company.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Wait you do that ammo?

Speaker 5 (06:19):
I do the AMMO thing now, yeah, I do the thing. Yeah. Yeah,
that's why when you when you got a hold of
me about this, you know, it's like you do this
thing to that. I said, oh great, okay, I'll watch.
I thought you were just letting me know that this
thing was going to be on. Yeah, I know that
next thing, you know, you're giving me the link, I'm
going to hold it. You know, been ten years, I'm

(06:43):
you know, but all my stuff has been small town rule. Yeah,
nothing large, but that's uh yeah, High Desert Carch has
been doing that for about seven years now and it's
really taken off, working with a lot of great industry
people in developing rounds and bringing up old stuff that
hasn't been around for a while, that isn't there. So

(07:05):
it's been good.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
And I just received the shipment today and it was
a yeah, two hundred and fifty rounds of dB flavored
magnum oh yes, so yeah, and some thirty eight. And lastly,
that Chappy guy, that Chappie guy.

Speaker 2 (07:28):
So my name's John Chapman. I'm known by people who
some of them don't like me as Chappy. Been on
cops since nineteen ninety two, started in northern California and
working for some large organizations, and then kind of worked
my way down as I worked east and now I'm
in Middle Tennessee and I just semi retired again as

(07:53):
a detective lieutenant, still running training or portions of the
training division at the department, and been working on this
this little concept for a small town and rural law
enforcement officers for a few years now, trying to get
it organized so that it's durable and resilient as we

(08:17):
go forward. And that kind of started with some of
the other training I was doing and seeing some issues.
It's kind of where I've taken my training career since
I started teaching about nineteen ninety five nineteen ninety six,
kind of getting a program stood up and then figuring
out what else somebody isn't working on. So I think

(08:38):
I finally found one that I couldn't exhaust if I tried.
It's going to be necessary forever. And I think it's
mostly just how necessary it is, and as we talk
we'll get into why that is. But trying to serve
the guys who who don't get paid much and don't

(09:00):
have any training resources at all for a whole variety
of reasons, that's what I do now.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
Yeah, Yeah, And there's definitely a misunderstanding when it comes
to the public's version or the public's view of law enforcement.
They have these expectations. Cops are firearms experts, they know
all about all these laws and constitution. That's not necessarily
the case.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
That is absolutely not, so go go ahead. I was
just going to say. The challenge is that no matter
how small or big the city you're in, if a
family is having a violent emergency in their house, they
expect delta force to show up in ninety seconds. And
the part nobody wants to hear is they have kind

(09:44):
of a right to make that expectation. Now, we don't
have the resources to do that, So how do we
maximize what we can do. That's kind of why we're here.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, and so for the new cop that's just starting
or they have a couple of years, there are where
it's totally the you don't know what you don't know,
and so it takes some seasoned people. It might also, unfortunately,
might take some litigation there. Agencies might run into something

(10:14):
because an officer made the wrong call and they violated
someone's rights or they did something. And your foundation, essentially
is going to be an organization that can kind of
help provide that foundation where everything can be built upon.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
That is correct.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
And there's nothing like that that I can think of,
because not just the Constitution by itself is not a
popular discussion, and it needs to be.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
It does. So the challenge is that there is no
centralized for I hate the term, but for lack of
a better term, a think tank for domestic law enforcement.
Everything is aimed at either national level law enforcement or
large agency law enforcement. And there's about two hundred and

(11:06):
six skills that a law enforcement officer needs to have
in order to be considered a fully competent journeyman, for
lack of a better term, police officer. They get in
their twelve or twenty four week academy. They get a
certain amount, but most of it's touched on once and
it's not really it's not really built into a even

(11:29):
a conscious competence level in a lot of areas. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (11:34):
Yeah, and this isn't something new that John's discussing. I
could probably go back on the external hard drive and
find emails between John and I going back I don't
know what twelve fifteen years when we were talking about
the viability or the need or an equivalent of the
Asymmetric Warfare Group for law enforcement.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yep, exactly.

Speaker 4 (11:57):
So where John's going with this is something he's been
thinking and working on for quite a while, and you've
got a chance to really refine this idea in his head.

Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah, And if you're listening right now and you don't
happen to be a fan of cops, this might be
a really good episode for you to listen to because
we're going to be talking about some concepts because we
might be on the same page here because all of
us here we see deficiencies, and these deficiencies are what's
creating bad press. Obviously, decision making something that's going to

(12:31):
be with the individual background and all that kind of stuff.
But there are things where there can be intervention, there
can be training, there can be proficiency.

Speaker 2 (12:41):
Well, and the as Eric said, this has been a
focus of pretty concentrated study for fifteen or sixteen years
for me, and I've waited to do this until I
still know as everybody in this moodcast is the more
you know, the more you realize you don't know. Like

(13:03):
especially new cops, they graduate the academy, they know everything. Yeah,
we get it, but it's really a thing when you
get to be our age realizing what you don't know.
So it's taken us that long to get to the
point where we think we kind of have the concept
of the stuff that we are able to touch that

(13:24):
can be affected. So we can sit around at bitch
all day, but can we identify the things that we
are capable of touching that can have an actual effect
on the outcome of incidents in towns across the country.
So we'll dig into it more when we start talking
about the task force in particular, But there are there

(13:49):
is room in the law enforcement world for fifty more
organizations that are just like this one, focused on different
you know, concepts and issues and problems. Eric's got more
California time than I do, but he understands the just
as well as anybody else. Like, how many different subject

(14:10):
matters there are that aren't the five that we're covering,
that are just as important and require just as much
work nationally, And the smaller the department, the more dire
the need is.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
So, you know, one of the misconceptions that that people
have are are is it's it's the constitutional understanding. It's
where where officers fit in this whole thing with rights right,
and really for the most part, when it comes to property,
it comes to custody. You know, people want they want

(14:49):
the cops to come and save the day. Right, There's
there's a limit, there's a.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
Right, absolutely, and it's the constitution is such a challenge
because it has been I won't make a political statement,
but some could say that it's been intentionally ignored in
favor of case law. So case law is critically important

(15:15):
for officers to understand, but they are taught case law
first and only almost other than a couple of amendments
to the Constitution, not the Constitution itself, not the Declaration
of Independence, which is law. It does affect how we
do what we do. The federalist papers which inform what
the words and the constitution actually mean, written by the

(15:39):
people who wrote the Constitution. And there's been places that
are making attempts to address it as an issue, Hillsdale
College most importantly. I've been a friend with them for
a long time and been helping teach their law enforcement
constitutional course. The challenges you can't getbody to come to that.

(16:02):
It's boring, So it's critically important, but it's boring and
it's done by a college, So there's no integration of
that knowledge with actual actions in one of the one
of the critical tasks. And the smaller the town, the
less frequently those tasks are called for. So the more

(16:25):
bad decisions we get. The bad decisions are generally, in
the main, not every circumstance but they're generally not the
result of a bad cop. They're generally a result of
a lack of confidence or a fundamental lack of knowledge

(16:46):
about something and the reps to apply it in a
scenario based training or a walkthrough type training or even
hot hip pocket training just isn't done. So there's reasons
for that. There's what I call Article eight issues, which
Article eight doesn't exist in the Constitution, That's why we

(17:08):
call it that, But it's the institutionalized format of the
managerial class of government that relies on case law because
it can be changed very easily, and the Constitution doesn't
change and not rapidly. And understanding it and understanding understanding

(17:35):
the federalist papers are important not only because yeah, we
shouldn't violate people's rights, but just the fundamental understanding that
police officers don't have rights, they have responsibilities and to
the Constitution when they're on duty. And if we don't
understand what it is and what it actually means, we

(17:59):
can we can't even hope to make good decisions in
absence of dumb luck so to do.

Speaker 5 (18:11):
Why don't you think that that type of stuff is
tied at the academy level, This is this is interesting.

Speaker 2 (18:17):
This is.

Speaker 5 (18:19):
Like you've made a good point there about we're definitely
you know, case law always you know, comes to be
and that you know during the academy different case.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
Laws, you know, but.

Speaker 5 (18:32):
The constitution stuff that mm hmm. You know I think
that I remember, you know. I mean I've been through
I've been through a couple of different state academy of course,
one for the for the fits and no it's all
about case.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Law, yep. And that isn't what I call an Article
eight function. So there is no Article AID in the Constitution.
What I mean by that is it is the managerial
system of government that was instituted by President Wilson, started
by the first President Roosevelt, and it was fully bloomed

(19:09):
under President Wilson, which changed our form of government on
the on where the rubber meets the road. The term
trust the experts has been around since then. Because of that.
It's not that the federalized and I mean federalized with

(19:34):
the small f is in constitutional system of government hasn't
been trying to disempower local police officers. It's been attempting
to control them with subtle power. And that's that's not
any individual person. It's not the FBI, it's not do J.

(19:57):
It's the form of government that we all allowed to
implicitly function within the institutions of government. So it's not
taught because it's not viewed as important. What's viewed is
important for the dumb little cops that they've had on
the top of the head in order to reduce liability

(20:19):
for them, is how they're doing them a favor in
their mind. The case law is just another word for precedent.
Precedent is not constitutional law, but it's easier to force
a decision given a generalized sort of set of circumstances.

(20:42):
If an officer is making a constitutional judgment, he could
decide not to enforce the law at all. He could
decide to exercise his discretion and make a lesser arrest
than he could make. But if there is case law
that says, if somebody refuses to get out of the car,

(21:03):
I can forcibly remove them from the car, which there is,
then that in an officer's mind, especially under stress, means
I should do that. The purpose of not case law itself,
but of educating case law. The way that has been
done for a little over one hundred years is to

(21:26):
lead officers to subconsciously be told how to make decisions
what's best for the state law or the federal law,
not what's best for the people standing in front of them.
I've also found that the more an officer is educated
on what the constitution actually is, the less likely they

(21:48):
are to make decisions based on what's good for them,
what's easier for them, or what's better for their city
or county, as opposed to what's better for the citizenry
as a hole and the citizens standing in front of
them as a local law enforcement officer, and the smaller
the department, the more true this is. Our primary responsibilities

(22:11):
are upholding the constitution and protecting the citizens of our jurisdiction.
That suspect is one of those citizens. Now, there are
a lot of people that need to go to jail.
That's not what we're arguing. What we're arguing is the
more knowledge, information, and skills that individual officers have, the

(22:34):
more or the less emotional based decisions they make, And
the vast majority of the bad decisions that law enforcement
officers make are based on emotion, anger, fear, stress, anxiety.
Having seen similar incidents as go bad, so they're trying

(22:57):
to cut them off early. Things like that what drive
in my experience, what drive bad decisions. It's the same
reason everybody in this podcast knows. Once an officer has
been in a shooting, are they more or less likely
to be in a shooting that is ruled is justified.
They are far more likely not to be in a shooting.

(23:19):
They're less likely to be in a shooting, but when
they are, they are more likely to be in a
justified shooting. The reason for that is they've been through
that experience. They understand that the less emotion they can
insert into this that the longer period dwell time they
create in being forced to make a four spased decision.

(23:42):
If that makes sense, I know it's probably a way
too long, but answer to a simple question like that,
but I think it's great. It's there is a heavy
reliance on case law by the administrative state because it
drives ives more detail into the decisions expected of local

(24:05):
law enforcement officers.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
Just makes sense, and looking at it from a veteran perspective,
I wish I had a much better foundation in understanding
the Constitution before taking case law. I kind of compare
it to with primary and secondary People ask about rifles.
What's the best air fifteen? Instead of me telling and

(24:32):
what's the best air fifteen? Is the case law? Instead
of that, let me tell you, these are the things
you should be looking for. And that's the Constitution, right
know what this is about, and so you can identify
it and you can go, oh, this makes sense. You
can and you can read basically read along and understand
the logic behind the decisions.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
Yes. The other reason that that, and I wrote an
entire paper about this, but one of the primary reasons
that case law is so focused on. As an officer
will usually remember a couple of case law citations at
Tennessee versus Gardner, for example, can they tell you what

(25:13):
the case actually was or can they tell you what
it says they're allowed to do it? Generally, the only
thing that they retain intentionally is what it allows them
to do. If that makes sense, That's kind of the
point of teaching it, or one of the points of
teaching it as case law instead of a deep understanding

(25:37):
of the preamble of the Constitution is the first thing
a law enforcement officer should learn where their authority comes from.
It comes from the Preamble of the Constitution. Are in
the first sentence of the US Constitution is ensure domestic
tranquility that is referred directly or is referenced directly in

(25:57):
Federalists seventeen, where Hamilton says exactly what they mean by that,
and it means the local criminal authority results within the
states and the local jurisdictions that they set up. That's
where all criminal law enforcement authority resides. So that should
be the first sentence. I mean, looking at it, logically,

(26:19):
that's the first sentence any police academy should teach, where
does your authority derive from? So that's just an example,
but it's an example of the giant gap of information
that officers have that they need to have. So we're

(26:40):
trying to use this as one more mechanism to teach
that and then give them some practical application of it
in somewhat stressful mostly focused on training circumstances where they
can see what it looks like once they understand it.
Now they can see the pink elephant and every picture,

(27:00):
you know what I mean, They can see what we're talking.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
About, and I think it's it's helpful also for listeners.
This isn't necessarily just a cop thing. This is important
for the citizens to be aware of so you know
what you're getting, know what you're paying know uh to
know what you're paying for, and to also have a
reasonable expectation.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
Exactly. So one of when we get to it, we
can talk about it. But we've got three or four
missions for the Foundation, and one of them is a
podcast that'll be kind of linked to this one in
some ways that is meant to educate not cops, but
citizens of small towns in rural areas, like you should

(27:47):
expect X, y Z, you should understand this kind of thing.
It's part of the reason that Hillsdale College does all
the work they do with all the free courses that
they offer so citizens can can study things like this.
And the citizenry has learned the hard way over the
last eight to twelve months that there's a lot of

(28:11):
things about how the government works that they just don't
know and don't understand. And it's nice to see. It's
not everybody by any means, but it's nice to see
a large, somewhat large reawakening, especially among younger people, as
to what these things actually mean. The Constitution is not
a dead letter. It is literally how this place is

(28:34):
supposed to work.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
Well, it had to have been at least a year ago.
But I want to say Eric was there, and Warren
was there, and ten men and no Scarecrow. No, yeah, no.
We talked about things like no Knock WARRENZ and we
talked about all these hot topics, and it was cool

(28:58):
to have these conversations. And when people would bring up
well this, clearly they don't understand what's going on. Listen
to this. This will help provide that that that frame
or reference to have from it. Yeah, to have your
organization cover things like that clue in the citizenry is
just it's it's because the reference they have is entertainment.

(29:21):
They have TV, they have SVU and movie stuff, and
that's not reality.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
They need to know what reality is.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
And they see things and they get upset because social
media is saying this is bad. Well let's look at this,
let's how does this fit with the constitution?

Speaker 2 (29:38):
Right?

Speaker 1 (29:38):
And it's just fantastic, absolutely fantastic. And Warren has not
said anything I've noticed.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
I mean, I'm not saying I'm keeping my eye on them.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
He's also taller in person, which is odd for me.

Speaker 3 (29:52):
I know, I died of question how are you going
to deliver this?

Speaker 5 (29:58):
Deliver these these?

Speaker 2 (30:01):
So we have two or three phases of delivery. Obviously,
first we need to get a facility built because we
have to thought about this a long time. Eric will
tell you that's probably surprising for me, But I've given
this a minute of thought, and I think the most

(30:21):
efficient and not only efficient, but most effective way to
do this is to do the vast majority of it
in one place away from their department. Everybody here has
worked at a small agency. How much of your percent
as a percentage of your focus, does a trainer who
comes to your department have probably sixty percent at the most.

(30:45):
All the kids have dentist appointments, there's always a hot call.
The association I'm in in Tennessee, we're teaching a basic
SWAT this week. My lead instructor called me and said, hey,
about half the class had to leave for about an
hour to go deal with a fatal crash like stuff
like that. That's all necessary and needs to be done,
but we're attempting to teach them a not super complex,

(31:11):
but a somewhat complex series of tasks and information. So
it's most efficient if they are away from home. So
we're going to bring them here the first facilities here
in Middle Tennessee. We've had a phenomenal American donated the
land to do it, and another few phenomenal people have
donated some of the resources we need to start building it.

(31:34):
We'll talk later about fundraising stuff. I'm sure I'll give
a long winded pitch, but get them here and they
can't they can't leave. But they can't leave like they're
going to stay there, eat there, and everything's being paid for.
So we'll get to that as well. Second phase is
the think tank model. So we have already started the

(31:58):
process of recruit some folks to be subject matter experts.
We see lots of newspaper and not police want articles
which are excellent it's an excellent resource or other magazine
of the So there's some magazines that give good information,

(32:19):
but it's diluted. And I don't mean the information is diluted,
I mean it's delivery is diluted. So one of the
tasks or the missions of the foundation is to create fresh,
studied white papers and thesises of topics that either don't

(32:40):
get touched for political or difficult conceptuality problems or there
they are touched, but they're not readily available and they're
not put in a way that is focused on the
seventy percent of officers in the United States who work
for small departments. Seventy percent of the police officers in

(33:02):
the United States work for agencies with less than ten people,
so they serve jurisdictions of less than ten thy five
hundred citizens, So that's seventy percent of cops. They get
six percent of the federally centrally funded training budget. Seventy
percent of the cops get six percent of the budget.

(33:23):
So obviously the reason we're we're this is a nonprofit
is we want it to be viable for departments who
have don't have a pot to piss in to send
the guys that need it. So it's not an instructor class,
but it's more of a mentorship type class as well,
try to spread the work. The third phase is the

(33:44):
kind of thing that Eric may be involved in, not
breaking any news or anything, but at some point is
a mobile trade training team for small agencies, so doesn't
cost them a dime. They get it. Somebody like if
I can't fit anybody good, I'll have Eric go do it.
But they'll go that was a joke. Eric, I don't

(34:07):
have my glasses on. So that's how Mad does podcast, right, right,
that was that was.

Speaker 5 (34:13):
Not a joke.

Speaker 4 (34:14):
Eric, You can't find anybody else. Few scrape the plot
up of the barrel and then after that there's.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
Me, Oh, I heart you buddy. Yeah. Right. Now, having
somebody with with the kind of depth of experience that
Eric has show up at a department and not we're
not there to to unscrew them like they're Most of
these agencies aren't broken, they're just not built. So having

(34:46):
a mentor like Eric or somebody similar to develop the
relationship with them, show them what they need to be
looking at, help them develop as things as basic as policy.
The vast man jor agencies in the country. Again, there's
a huge statistics problem that we'll talk about sometime when

(35:06):
we have six hours talk about it about the challenge
of gathering statistics in law enforcement in the United States
because federally, law enforcement is treated like a trade, which
it kind of is, but in Department of Labor, Department
of Justice, it's treated like a trade, which is why
there is no think tank for it. So even though

(35:28):
it needs it, So just gathering basic statistical information at
a local level, not to mention a national level is
very difficult. But a lot of these agencies are running
off policies that they got at a IACP conference. Like
what does a guy from Boston Police Department know about

(35:49):
policing in Chicken fried Steak, Florida? Like nothing. He can't
tell that chief nothing because that chief is working for
a city council and a citizenry who knows those who
he is. He knows what his citizens need. He knows
the state law fairly well. Most agencies have done it
or most states have done a good job with that.

(36:09):
He understands case law great. Now with some education from
somebody like Eric, they can start to not only learn
the Constitution, but learn its application in real life and
more importantly, its application in policy. As we all know,
policy drives action. So whether they call it policies or

(36:32):
procedures or SOPs or general orders or whatever, it's all policy.
So they need help with that, and they need help
at the ground level. You have a chief and three officers.
The citizens of that community still deserve a police department
or a sheriff's office with a training plan like this
is our plan for this year. This is what we're

(36:54):
weak in. This is what we're strong in. This is
the stuff that's specific to our jurisdiction. Have In my jurisdiction,
the vast majority of our problems are narcotics related. So
in some way or form, we had a need to
increase our capabilities in narcotics investigations at the patrol level.

(37:17):
All of these agencies, very few of them have actual detectives.
Things like that, and that is an individualized task. Department
by department. Every one of them is different. You put
two departments that are ten miles apart. Their citizens expect

(37:37):
different things, Their chiefs have different concepts and levels of education.
Their officer demographic is different. That can only be led
in person. It's much like the misunderstanding and law enforcement
based on the FBI Academy and a couple other freaking problems.
Leadership is not done to an organization. Leadership is an

(37:58):
individual person, one person to one person activity. So it
is the same with teaching these small departments. Somebody like
Eric asks to go to their department in person, meet
all their guys, talk to some of their folks like
get to know them, whether remotely or in person, help
them build what they don't have at this level or

(38:23):
at this problem. This is not a something that can
be solved with a class. This isn't a come teach
us a supervisor's course. That's not what they need. We
don't know what they need, and any class is going
to be so generalized as to be helpful to them
as individuals, but not very helpful to the mission of

(38:44):
that particular agency. So that's kind of the third phase
of operation of the foundation. That's what we're doing. So
on the first phase side, on the training side, there'll
be two classes offered. One of them will be offered
twenty times a year and the other will be offered
ten times a year, and they're meant to be hierarchical.

(39:08):
The twenty class a year course it's five days, fifty
hours and it's a patrol tactical operations course. It was
a program that not this program, but the concept was
started in the state of Illinois probably twenty years ago.
Everybody's heard of. The Tactical patrol Officer program kind of
died off. There's a whole bunch of reasons for that

(39:28):
that aren't really important, and it was originally envisioned to
be a basic swat school for patrol guys. It's not
what patrol guys need. Basic SWAT school is conducted or
any SWAT school is conducted upon the predicate of certain
levels of support and equipment and cover and time involved.

(39:53):
Patrol never has any of that vast majority of violent
patrol calls, especially hostage situations, resolve within ninety seconds of discovery,
so you're dealing with one or two guys trying to
manage these problems. That's what that course focuses on, focused
on the big five problems that we've identified that we
can actually work on. And the second course is a

(40:15):
patrol hostage rescue course. That one is again five days
fifty hours, meant to be done after you take the
tactical operations course. That is focused purely on either well
recognizing or discovering a hostage circumstance, isolating or resolving it
because a little over eighty five percent of hostage rescue

(40:39):
situations in the United States all resolved within ninety seconds
of the officer discovering it, So those guys get exactly
zero training in hostage circumstance. So it's not just negotiation
and it's not just rescue, it's everything in between. So
that's what those courses do. They're meant to build, to

(41:00):
build on one another, and then if officers are interested
as part of the foundation, they're more than welcome and
we have we're working on ways to fund ways for
them to keep coming back and develop their instructional abilities.
They'll never really be a TF seventy instructor course, but
if we can loop them in coming once or twice

(41:21):
a year and mentoring and helping us teach and learning
the processes, that's how we build the guys who are
right now twenty four to thirty years old, how we
build them into being us in twenty five years because
right now that's frankly not being done in most agencies.

(41:42):
There's large agencies that are doing it okay like most things,
and in big agencies, training is actually getting better. It's
not getting worse statistically. I know that there's exceptions, but
in general, the funding and the resourcing and the mentorship
at those big agencies is in decent shape. It's not

(42:03):
as bad as it was twenty years ago. But today
the small departments are going the other direction. So that's
why that's what we're focused on, is building that next
generation of dudes. So hopefully I answered your question and
far more words than you needed. That's really good to

(42:23):
hear it.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
So typically what I do, after a little bit of time,
we'll take a quick little break just under two minutes,
run some ads. We'll be right back, So our mics
and cameras will turn off just for a couple seconds
two minutes.

Speaker 5 (42:38):
So with that in mind, it's time.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
To get a refill. If you're really fast, you might
might even be able to get in the bathroom. But yeah,
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(44:32):
cool and always fun to talk about the guns and
all that kind of stuff. But I've said it before,
the concepts, the mindsets, the theories for me are such more.
There's so much more value in those discussions. We can
talk about small agencies getting patrol rifles. Okay, we can

(44:52):
talk about okay, we're going red dot, not a problem,
we can do that. But these kinds of com stations,
these aren't things we get to have all the time,
the deeper discussions. But as far as patrol rifles, we
have sons, psionics, BCM can't go wrong done. But these

(45:20):
concepts that it takes so much more and you need
to have that understanding. So steve your thoughts so far.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
And you're muted.

Speaker 5 (45:30):
Yeah, I'm trying to get I muted there. No, I
just was like my comment earlier is constitution is not
taught at the academy level.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 5 (45:46):
I was, you know, there at the academy teaching doing
the firearms saying, but also sat in on some classes
with some of the with some of the recruit classes
and different things, and had you know, had time off
in between. Sometimes we didn't have students on the rain
so I just go sit in on a different class
or whatever, different things, any type of updates or whatever,

(46:08):
and now it's all it's all case law.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
It's all.

Speaker 5 (46:15):
It's almost like a scripted thing that you know, like
Chappy you had mentioned it, just what can what you
can and can't do, but the wise and wherefores and
all the background is not there. And I think you'd
have a whole lot more lack of terms here right,

(46:35):
efficiency for your officers, and more professionalism and better service
to the community with a constitutional background to apply that
to those case laws and back and forth so they
can really understand the case law and not just give

(46:58):
it to him as you know Terry versus Ohio, and
here's what you can and can't do, and go forth.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
And commit law enforcement.

Speaker 5 (47:05):
There you know, there there good. And I saw that
a lot in the academy. The academy is at least
here in my state. When I went through it was
four hundred and forty hours and now it's seven hundred
and twenty hours and impressive on a piece of paper
until you have to sit through it and it's fluff,

(47:29):
you know, they were. I was sat in on a
on a class that was about ready to graduate. There
about a week ready to graduate, and there were still
recruits in there that still had questions on when they
could stop and detain where's the failure and why I
know where the failure is. It's all this other fluff stuff.

(47:49):
You know, if you got.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
Down to.

Speaker 5 (47:52):
I've had this conversation with several admins and authors over
the years. If you get down to like four or
five CORPS subjects, you know, criminal law, criminal procedure, criminal investigation.
But what's missing in that? You know, it's all criminal, criminal, criminal,
but there's no constitution in there. They need to have

(48:14):
a subject on constitutional law. And those four or five
whatever how many things that they you know, firearms and
you know, hand to hand, you know, the self defense tactics,
that kind of stuff. If they just went over those
things over and over and over instead of bringing in
I mean, this could be argument. You know, definitely can

(48:37):
start an argument. It's like, you know, a deal on
writing search warrants. I almost guarantee, you know, working with
a lot of small agencies, I almost guarantee that if
you don't, if you don't know, and most people don't,
you know, they'll go to that class at the academy
and never have to write a search warrant like three
years later then I can remember that. To me, it's

(48:57):
a way, Yeah, it's a waste some of this stuff.
It's like someone there. I guarantee you someone is going
to help you write that thing. And I was working
for sheriff's office.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
Here we have.

Speaker 5 (49:10):
At that time I first started, there was three incorporated
towns that had small agencies and they would ask one
of us to help them write search form until they
got the gist of it and then then go off
on their own. Guarantee there's going to be someone around
there that's going to help you write that thing. Other
stuff it's like you know, a deal on railroad crossings,

(49:31):
you know, come on really, you know, and then how
to read a vent on a car, you know, and
all this kind of stuff, you know, state patrol or
whatever's going to you know back there's going to be
people there. But you have to be able to function,
like I said, efficiency and have a good service to
the community constitutionally backed, so you can operate, you know

(49:52):
how to operate, and you're not violating any citizens you
know rights, and there's more of a ownership, you know,
to what's going on in the community versus just doing
the job when I was off track on that. I
don't know, but I just think that academies need to

(50:17):
get back to you know, to get into the basics reading, writing,
and reading and writing and arithmetic, all this other fluff
stuff done later, done later. And that was that was
the I said, I'll get back and real quick here.
That was the biggest thing that struck me when I
sat on that class they had I think they came ndered.

(50:38):
The academy was in there and they had one of
the people from the board that governs the stuff here
in Washington was in there and she was asking questions
and people were stuttering, and I'm just going, this is horrid.
You got a week to graduate. You don't know if
you can stop and detain it's not there. You know,

(50:59):
you've been here for seven hundred and twenty hours. That
should be over and over. It should be. You should
almost be sick of it to the point where when
you get on the street you can function.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
Yep.

Speaker 5 (51:11):
And I'm not seeing the function. But I don't know
if people have different opinions of ideas well.

Speaker 2 (51:18):
I don't have a different opinion at all. I think
I've studied for a long time why this is occurring,
and what led me to that area of study was
being responsible for an FTO program. So the longer I
did that, the more and more I realized what was
being asked of the FTO programs was declining because it

(51:41):
partially it just turns into the check check the box function.
It's no longer treated like a trade where you're expected
to earn a journeyman status by the time you're done
with FTO. Their answer was always we're pushing it to
the academy. They're learning it in the academy. Well they're not,

(52:02):
and that's partially a function of politics and interpersonal relations
amongst groups of more than five always have problems like that,
which is to be expected in a statewide law enforcement
governing authority. But that's been encouraged for a very long
time through the National Academy. The US Congress and the

(52:27):
Department of Justice did not have to attempt to lift
the rock of federalizing local law enforcement. They did it
through the FBI National Academy. To get a chiefs job
in the United States, in any agency of more than
fifty people, it's basically mandatory that you've been through the
FBI Academy, which is designed for law enforcement executives, and

(52:50):
it teaches them how to think about these things. And
that is the the nine to one to one number
of police is the FBI, and that very quickly. And
I don't mean in emergencies. I mean in everything from
forensic questions to FTO programs, to specialization training, to state

(53:15):
legislatures calling them to find out what should be mandatory
yearly continuing education. Every state law has the same problems
that ours does. Or we have mandates that add up
to forty hours of training child sex abuse, you know,
sexual harassment awareness training, and there's you know, there's always

(53:37):
every state's different, but there's always six or seven topics
that are mandated, and almost none of them have to
do with the big five things that impact the immediate
safety of an individual citizen. So that's why, that's why
we focus on those big five skills, and it's why
things are not why FTO program have been turned into

(54:00):
what they have been. And it's not an easily fixable problem.
It's good that it has to be fixed fifty times
in fifty different states, but there are individualized relational interaction
problems in every legislature and every sheriff's association in chiefs,
the police association in every state. It's a giant problem.

(54:26):
So it's so stressful that I just finally listen to
the advice of an old mentor of mine who since
passed that focus on what you can touch, what can
you do that will have the maximum effect on the
most amount of people. So anyway, I really think you're

(54:46):
hitting the nail on the head with that, with the
basic academy problem, and it's worse in our state. The
state academy is twelve weeks, and it's fun only four
eight hour days a week. One of those days is
lost to administrative stuff. So it's even if we focused

(55:09):
on ten highly impactful critical skills that they have to
learn to unconscious competence, you couldn't do it in twelve
weeks if you if you limit it to five or six,
even with a twenty four or twenty six week academy,
that's very difficult. So it's a much bigger problem than
any of us have the ability to focus on. So

(55:32):
one of the ancillary things we're trying to accomplish with
this is find four or five things that you can
accomplish and focus on those within your agency, or your region,
or wherever your sphere of influence is. So the people
the mods here have a much wider audience of officers

(55:53):
than you know, the patrol sergeant at the Dirty Ash
Tray Alabama has, but he still has some reach within
his region. So hopefully we can encourage people to think
like you're thinking, like what are we not doing that
we have the ability to do.

Speaker 5 (56:14):
Well?

Speaker 1 (56:14):
And talking about the academy, I can think of multiple
times where officers say basically, yeah, when when we get
the new recruit, we basically tell him forget everything, We're
going to retrain you. What's the use then? Why even bother?

Speaker 5 (56:30):
Right that I saw that a couple of times in
our academy where they have an outside instructor came in
there and they said, because you know, when you first
got there at the academy, you know they give that
big old binder you know that you're going to be
going through, or two binders you're going to be going through,

(56:50):
you know, from start to finish the academy, right, And
so they have an outside instructor come in there and say,
see that book in front of you, just take it
off your desk just you know, they pretty much because
once you get to your once you get to your department,
it's all going to be different. It's not going to
be this stuff whatever. And I'm just thinking, wow, really,
where'd you come from? I mean, okay, okay, okay, So

(57:13):
maybe maybe we might believe that, and maybe that's probably
maybe true, but you definitely don't want to throw that
to the recruits out and them goes, yeah, stuff in
front of all that stuff you're learning there, just yeah,
it's a waste of time for you.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
You know.

Speaker 5 (57:28):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
I've heard instructors tell academy students recently that, you know,
just I'm teaching you for the test, study the test.
None of this stuff's going to matter when you get
to your department. Well what does that do to the
knowledge that is passed that they are capable of giving
in some way? Are they going to pay attention to
any of it after that? No? No, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5 (57:51):
It's meaning after that, it's like, okay, what I'm here for?
Here for a memory test and then I'm off to
something else.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
I'm here to get a box checked, which is the
number one purpose of any bureaucratic institution. Is to make
boxes for other people to check.

Speaker 4 (58:08):
So anyway I can jump in with a couple thoughts, John, please,
So one of the problems we have is the Constitution
isn't being taught in the schools, right. Never mind that
it's not taught in the academy, it's it's not foundational
two folks. The other issue, and this came to me
while while you were talking, it's commander's intent, right. Case

(58:31):
law is very specific to stuff, but the Constitution is
the commanders is the decent, normal human being an l
e equivalent to.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
Commander's intent from the military.

Speaker 4 (58:42):
If I can think about what I'm doing based on
what the intent of the founding fathers was, then I
can apply it to the situation at hand, right, And
you're bringing up.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
The Federalist papers and things like that.

Speaker 4 (58:54):
With a good understanding of it, those officers can make
decisions on the fly with it based on what the
original intent of how this country was put together was.
So I apologize we spitball with that, but it came
to my mind when I was listening to you talk,
and I think that's a decent analogy going on.

Speaker 2 (59:12):
You absolutely nailed it, absolutely nailed it, And.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
So when we have these deficiencies, something needs to make
up for it. If only there was a solution. Oh
that's what we're discussing right now.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
Yeah, well there's a small part of the solution. So,
as I spoke about, I'm I've really struggled over the years,
as we all do. We see something that's wrong and
it's left up and we just sit around and get
mad about it, Like, you know, what can it? Pat
taught me long ago one of my mentors, what can

(59:54):
you do? What reach? What people can you touch? And
what do you know well enough that you can confidently
teach them that? Well, all of us, even in this
mod cast, there's what one hundred and fifty years of
law enforcement training experience here. How many people could each
of us? How many people do each of us touch

(01:00:16):
in something beyond the skill level. So, in any taxonomy,
there's a mission capability that has to exist to make
that mission and reality. There's a set of procedures that
without which the capabilities can't actually exist. There's techniques, which
are the small small groups applying generalized things to do

(01:00:41):
against it creates a procedure. And then there's the individual
skills that have to exist for those techniques to be valid.
So once we get beyond the skills, how many of
us teach firearms courses only because that's the class people
will sign up to go take. We all know there's
other stuff that we need to be teaching these guys,
but we got to get them there with the gun stuff,

(01:01:05):
which is also like everybody likes butt stuff, I mean
gun stuff. So if we can I see Eric turned
his camera off for a second there. If we can
get them in with the guns, that's great. But what's
our next level? So what can we touch that they need?
So Task Force seventy was conceptualized a long time ago,

(01:01:28):
but been been writing a lot and thinking a lot
for a number of years about what can we actually
touch that's necessary and effective and what's most useful for
the largest number of people that's also translatable by those guys.
So I can only touch at full performance. With two

(01:01:50):
facilities running full blast and mobile training team outworking, we'll
probably be able to touch a thousand cops a year.
That's at full performance. So under my training companies Max
Performance High to the g WAT, we touch about eleven
hundred students a year. That's a bunch of full classes

(01:02:12):
every weekend, Right, what can we teach not only that
we can touch that we're confident in teaching, but what
is in five days I can give them something that
they can give to somebody else. It's not an instructor class,
but more of a mentorship methodology, like we're going to
teach you these things, and we expect we're going to
give you books, We're going to make you take notes,

(01:02:34):
We're going to test you and give you sets of standards.
You're expected to teach this to other people as well.
So the instructor and everybody here, I'm sure, as long
as you don't vehemently disagree, the instructor credentialing of most
states has turned into a grift for a lot of

(01:02:57):
states within their post within their police standards. A lot
of guys who take instructor classes are doing it to
fluff resumes or whatever. They're never teaching that stuff, and
they if they do, they don't teach it enough to
get the kind of reps necessary. I mean, how long
did it take all of us to learn how to

(01:03:18):
actually teach someone how to shoot? That was years of
weekly teaching, right to get good at teaching somebody how
to shoot? That's one of two hundred and six skills
that they need to know how to do. So we
need lots of these people. So, thinking about it fairly
as deeply as my limited brain is capable of, come

(01:03:42):
up with five kind of key critical things that sometimes
some are being taught, some aren't, some are being taught well,
some aren't. Some of that depends on jurisdiction. Some of
it depends on the topic. So Task four seventy has
determined that we're going to focus on five big things
that are highlight ability, high consequence to the citizens of

(01:04:02):
those communities, of those seventy percent of departments that the
vast majority of them don't have the money to do.
So we're going to teach constitutional judgment. That's the knowledge
of the Constitution and it's real application. It's not a
dead letter, like how are we applying this within circumstances.
We're going to teach some marksmanship, but all of it

(01:04:25):
built around actual activity. It's not going to be a
basic pistol class or a basic rifle class. It's going
to be the incorporation of those tools within a larger context.
We're going to teach patrol breaching, so all of us
know the cases with actor shooters that are barricaded in

(01:04:45):
rooms that the enforcement action needs to occur immediately, and
it occurs seventy minutes later because nobody could get in
the damn door. Because how many patrol guys do we
all know are getting routine breaching training. Not a lot,

(01:05:07):
So there's some, there's a few, and small circumstances. They
have their fire department teach their guys once a year
or whatever, But who's giving them the means to learn
how to mechanically and ballistically breach and how to pass
that information onto somebody else tomorrow, Like they get back
to work the next day. They could be teaching all

(01:05:31):
five of these things. So next is medical skills to
stop the bleed program and many others like it are
doing a great job, but it's going to take decades
to touch everybody. So we're going to touch on that
and incorporate it into the courses and the lastest tactics.
So law enforcement officers, as a general rule woefully misunderstand

(01:05:57):
what tactics are and how they're applied. And the learning
them from the military has some value, But the military's
doctrines are excellent, but they focus on rescue. Law enforcement
has a much broader mission law. All law enforcement tactics
have to be applicable in three operational circumstances, not one.

(01:06:21):
So we have to be able to execute this as
a search, we have to execute it as a seizure,
and we have to be able to execute it as
a rescue. So that dictates given the limited amount of
training time, not only we have available, but the agencies
do that whatever we are teaching is applicable across those

(01:06:43):
three almost completely different operational envelopes, and depend can be
adjusted with momentum instead of tactics. So if we're teaching
a different active shooter tactic than we are from a
house tactic, from a vehicle assault tactic, how about we

(01:07:03):
come up with some fundamental individual and two man skill
sets that apply across the three operational envelopes and across circumstances.
So CQB is a Eric's had to listen to me
rant about this for decades. But CQB means close quarters battle.
That means any fight within about fifty yards that can

(01:07:26):
be outside, in a parking lot, in a house, in
a school, in whatever the tactic is, the tactic it's
driven by the circumstance and the terrain. So anyway, those
are the five big things that we're focusing on as
the task force. Having done that, there will be more
work than we could do in fifty lifetimes across the country,

(01:07:48):
across these small agencies. I mean, we're going to try,
but we're also here to try to encourage others to
come up with similar concepts within their scope of expert
I guarantee you every one of us knows a duy
guy that could do nothing but teach small town patrolmen
duys and how to do them properly. I thought you

(01:08:09):
meant a drunk. Oh yeah, well they're cops, so I
repeat myself. But like, there's two hundred and six of
those skills, and there's experts in all of them all
over the place. So you don't have to spend hundreds
of thousands of dollars to start a foundation. You can

(01:08:30):
say put out an email in your district or your
your judicial district and say, hey, I've decided I'm teaching
a three day DUI update. Who wants to come? Like
that's the kind of thing we're trying to encourage and
wind the Constitution into all of those things. Hillsdale College
teaches a lot of two day l ECC Constitutional instructor courses.

(01:08:56):
Doctor Reagan has built a phenomenal program at Hillsdale College
for that purpose, and their donors pay to send him
around teaching cops that for nothing. So, like I said,
how many cops do we get in those classes? We
taught one a couple of weeks ago and had four
people show up. So like also utilizing this stage or

(01:09:21):
precept or whatever to push out the need for that, Like,
even if if our schedule is full and you can't
come take our stuff this year, you got to come
next year. Like we used up all the scholarships and
we're going to have to push off till next year.
But here's the next LEECC class that's within driving distance.
Why don't you go take this and at least use

(01:09:41):
it to prep for our class. Or here's one of
Eric's classes, why don't you go take that? And oh,
our sponsors have our donors have over donated. So we've
got lots of resources here that I can buy through
the foundation. I can buy five spots and want to
air classes or ten spots and chuck snow fail pistol

(01:10:03):
class or whatever it is things that those guys need. Right,
That's kind of why it's a foundation. It's trying not
to well forcing it to not be a grift. So
our current donors have already paid the payroll. Like, people
aren't donating to buy me a house, Like, that's not
the purpose of this thing. So it's to train as

(01:10:25):
many cops to as I have a level as we
possibly can. That's the whole point. And this for me
kind of ties in what you just said.

Speaker 1 (01:10:36):
It ties into kind of what I was saying about
with the algorithms. It's up to the listener of the
viewer spread the word with this. If you're not a cop,
but you want to see your agency go through this,
they may not be familiar and it's not a bad
idea to reach out and go, hey there's this right,
check this out, right, check it out. Yeah, it could

(01:10:56):
supply something that you need.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
M Well, and we've already gotten so I just made
this publicly known. Well, I mean some people like Eric's
known for a long time this is coming. There's you know,
people who are helping us and supporting us have known.
We've just started, like we just activated the social media stuff.
We've already had over one hundred applications or requests for

(01:11:21):
applications for scholarship endowments.

Speaker 1 (01:11:23):
Cool.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
So I know that it's a need. We knew that
ahead of time, but there will be plenty of guys
who need it. What we're going to need short term
is donors and we're going to need or I'm going
to need help with not only good ideas, but good
ideas from experienced guys on white papers and studies that

(01:11:45):
need to get done. Because we have the ability, being
a foundation and being associated with Hillsdale, we have the
ability to get something formally published. That way, it's presentable
in court. It's an actual sme those types of things,
finding somebody who's willing to spend a year truly studying. Like,

(01:12:07):
there's hundreds of topics that need papers and thesises, and
every one of them aimed at helping those small town guys.
But you know, maybe it'll it'll do something else. For instance,
the drone stuff, there is zero academic literature on the

(01:12:28):
application of drone operations within the constitutional framework for law
enforcement patrol operations. That's something that hasn't even been studied.

Speaker 4 (01:12:42):
So there is one benefit of one other benefit of
you guys connected with Hellsdale problems. Is with the good
research papers. They're usually behind an academic wall and are
not currently at affiliated with or at an academic institution,

(01:13:02):
is a student or instructor. Those papers aren't available for free.
They are thirty forty to fifty bucks a shot.

Speaker 2 (01:13:10):
You are absolutely correct.

Speaker 4 (01:13:12):
Folks who cannot afford to buy those there's papers I've
passed up on because I don't know enough about the contents.

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
Of it to justify dropping fifty bucks on the pape.
So for the folks who.

Speaker 4 (01:13:22):
Can get behind that wall via heel, Hillsdale in a
better position to access what research is there.

Speaker 2 (01:13:30):
So right positive to that exactly. And we have such
a good close relationship that we can probably if one
of the one of our researchers is looking into something,
I can put him in contact with the professor who
is the world expert on that thing at Hillsdale. So's

(01:13:52):
there's a huge and I can't tell you how much
mentorship I've gotten from doctor Reagan and several others at
Hillsdale of like, how would you study this problem? And
they'll give me because they're great Americans. They'll give cops
whatever they can. They will give you reams of not

(01:14:13):
the information, but how to gather the information in a
way that it's actually usable by layman, if that makes sense. So,
and I think you're absolutely correct having a centralized source
at the foundation for you know, a chief of police
needs some justifiable documentation on why to do something. If

(01:14:34):
we don't have it, we have the resourcing to do it,
to assign somebody or ask somebody to do it. Get
it actually peer reviewed. I think Eric's the only one
that's ever returned one of my peer review requests ever
on a white paper within the normal population of our tribe,

(01:14:56):
like because you know, peer reviews are hard to do,
but you'll have it actually peer reviewed. It's defendable, it's usable,
and it's based on the Constitution fundamentally. So I think
you're I think you're absolutely right, Eric, that's a that
in and of itself is a gargantuan bonus is just
having access to that that type of library.

Speaker 4 (01:15:18):
Having put one white paper out there, getting getting your
peer group to sign off on it, agree on it,
and comment on it is huge.

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
Yes, exactly, That's exactly correct, and it's very difficult to
do right now with how decentralized. Our methodology for doing
it is a lot of the peer reviews that I
see in the criminal justice PhD programs. I read a
lot of those, and I peer review some of them.
But criminology, as you guys know, is is where like

(01:15:53):
some well I won't say that because it's unkind, but
none of them are breaking new ground. Yeah, and it's
like the only real place for scholarship in the law
enforcement realm, and most of it is just somebody trying
to get a PhD. None of it is focused on

(01:16:13):
what we know in this room, what actually needs to
be studied and documented and done and best practices developed.
So yeah, I think you're absolutely right, Eric. It's having
it peer reviewed adds so much to the scholarship of
an effort because you're selecting peers to review people like Eric.

(01:16:36):
I know, I can send Eric a white paper on
the application of precision rifles and patrol operations, and I'm
going to get an actual expert who has the actual
contextual knowledge to provide an actual peer review and build
on the scholarship that was started. If that makes sense.

Speaker 4 (01:16:56):
If I can add to that, it's not going to
specifically this top but going off on a segue. Did
a presentation this afternoon the at an LA Instructor conference.
I'm teaching it and one of the things I used
is Adam biggs research on deadly forced decision making. Biggs
is a Navy commander and one of the things he
talks about is practical experience is good.

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
We need practical experience.

Speaker 4 (01:17:21):
By the same token, we need folks who are able
to do research from the academic side to look at it.
And Matt has had Cecil Birch on before. Some of
you know who Cecil is. He's in the hands on world,
but he's also a gun well. And one of the phrase,
one of the terms that Cecil coined, or at least
I give credit for it, was the phrase pro academic.

(01:17:44):
It's having people with the practical experience. You can also
look at the academic side of things and tie the
two together. Right, who can take this is my experience,
this is my research, and now I can put it
into a language that the folks in the Ivory Tower
can process and we can get farther down the road.
So right, for those of you out there watching the

(01:18:07):
podcast or listening to it, if you can tie those
things together with a bit of an academic background behind it.
You'll be able to advance what we're all trying to
do in the profession and get better outcomes.

Speaker 2 (01:18:21):
Right, that is exactly correct what we see a lot,
and it's getting more and more pronounced with social media. Eric,
you and I have had this conversation offline. But so
the way an actual concept is supposed to exist is
I develop a thesis, I give it to Eric. Eric

(01:18:41):
develops an antithesis, and then we work together and create
the synthesis of the actual concept. Without an academic underpinning,
that is not possible. And without a synthesis, whatever you're
teaching is just just intellectual masturbation. It hasn't been it

(01:19:02):
hasn't been tested. And that's everything from how you manipulate
a trigger to how you write a search warrant to
how just because I can legally do something, should I
Like There's thousands of those topics, but I just want
to reinforce what Eric just said, Like, without an academic underpinning,
there is no synthesis on a topic. All you have

(01:19:24):
is thesis. So and then somebody else gets pissed off
on the internet. So now you have a half assed antithesis,
but it's never brought together into an actual synthesis of concept.

Speaker 1 (01:19:41):
I think the idea of establishing some form of standardization
is so appealing.

Speaker 2 (01:19:51):
It can be as long as it's not overdone. Again,
we don't.

Speaker 1 (01:20:00):
Well, maybe not standard maybe not standardization, but some form
of level for people to understand, Oh, I'm not quite
there yet, or we have We're good, We're beyond it.

Speaker 2 (01:20:12):
You are correct. So the best practices theory was developed
in the nineteen thirties as a for the trades. What
is the best practice? It's not a law, it's not
a federal regulation. It's in a perfect world with cotton
ball clouds across some possibly blue skies. How would this

(01:20:34):
look if it was done properly? And that is that
is a critical component that has been intentionally driven out
of the law enforcement field at the trade for lack
of a better term, And it's another symptom of the
same problem that created the emphasis on case law and

(01:20:57):
all of those things. The the managerial class would prefer
that Federalists seventeen didn't exist. Like law enforcement is supposed
to be local constitutionally, it's supposed to be driven locally,
but that does not relieve us of, especially with modern communication,

(01:21:19):
of the necessity of having some sort of reviewed synthesis
of what the best practice is in any given topic.
It doesn't. It's not a binding regulation, but it's like
what should a what should a felony stop look like?
I don't care about the tactics, I mean when is

(01:21:40):
it appropriate? What level of force is appropriate, giving what stimulus?
Those types of things can only be truly studied in
an academic way and then tested with the antithesis of
reason of real world application in a controlled environment. Like
that's how this is supposed to work, and it just

(01:22:01):
doesn't work at all right now. So the foundation, one
of our three core missions is to help, not we
don't want to, we don't want to be in charge
of it, but help at least create a central database
to start with that that can be a clearing house
for that kind of thing. And if it's not there,

(01:22:25):
you're probably going to be doing it. Like if you
email me and say, hey, this doesn't exist, I'm gonna
say that sounds like a great project for you.

Speaker 1 (01:22:31):
Well, in frames of reference are so important, especially in
talking to younger officers where they don't have those frames
of reference and where do they.

Speaker 2 (01:22:41):
Go to get them?

Speaker 1 (01:22:42):
Well, I tell stories, or I give examples, or hey,
watch what I do here right, use that as your
template from the future or for the future. If you
have a different way of doing it, go for it.
But without that, without that frame or reference, they're kind
of going in blind, going with what they hope is
the best. And that's also where that whole constitutional understanding

(01:23:03):
comes in, because if you do have that understanding and
you're going in blind to a call that you've never
even thought about, using that as that rail to guide
you to the right answer, you're going to be exactly
and it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:20):
Yes, I was going to go someplace else with that,
but I'd be on a long statistical rant about the
demographics of the law enforcement field are dying. So seventy
nine and seventy thousand fewer people turned eighteen this year
than last year, like Americans. So with AI comming one
of our first studies, I'm already looking for somebody to

(01:23:42):
lead it up. Is going to be constitutional AI integration
into law enforcement because agencies will sprint to eighty percent
AI solution for all problems if we let them. If
we don't create an academic constitutional bulwark too, like these

(01:24:04):
decisions still have to be made by a person that
you know, don't trust yet chat GPT, whether it where
to tell you where to eat, much less whether somebody
should be arrested or not.

Speaker 1 (01:24:15):
Because two episodes ago, yeah, two episodes ago, we talked
exactly about that and the sorry I missed it, Yeah,
and we can always do additional because what we're discussing
here fits in also very well with that episode. The
episode it's four thirty one, the continual loss of institutional knowledge.

(01:24:36):
And one of the things that was brought up was
AI use and one of the one of the very
bright panelists brought up you can't just blindly trust AI
to analyze a document and give you a synopsis. You
need to know what that document's going to be doing
and what it's saying or else that AI may be
giving you a very wrong direction, right, and a wrong conclusion.

Speaker 2 (01:24:58):
Eric, you're going to say something very important.

Speaker 4 (01:25:01):
Well, I'm going to say something so since that episode,
one of my white papers is up on Acadamia doted
on vehicles. Got an email last week from Academia, Hey,
would you like an AI review of your paper?

Speaker 2 (01:25:16):
Sure? What the heck?

Speaker 4 (01:25:17):
Let me see, right, the content review is probably about
ninety eight percent. It was pretty solid. It was fascinating.
And this goes back to things we talked about on
that episode. Was it suggested a bunch of additional resources references.
The problem was none of the references were related to

(01:25:37):
what the white paper was about. They were instead related
to general traffic safety, which had nothing to do with
vehicle which was the issue of the white paper.

Speaker 2 (01:25:48):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:25:49):
It just reinforces some of the things we were talking about,
which is you really have to look at what AI
spitting back and not just blindly accepted.

Speaker 2 (01:26:00):
Yep, exactly correct, and all AI is just a large
language model, which leads to the exact problem you just had.
What happens when we trust an AI to decide whether
or not to send an ambulance to a scene that
it can see from overhead through a drone, like because
that's what some agency, well there's at agency in particular

(01:26:24):
that's like experimenting with that right now. So those types
of calls. So yeah, that's that's a great example right there.
But I do think.

Speaker 1 (01:26:41):
Combining this specific topic today and that whole continual loss
of institutional knowledge, they are absolutely related. Because we are
in a place right now where the officers are. They
don't have the same skill sets, they don't have the
same confidence, they don't have the same so many things.
And I'm not saying that they're at this isn't necessarily

(01:27:02):
their fault m h. And there there may be some
institutional issues. And as we discuss the academy, when I
went through the academy, it sounds like it's very different
from when people are going now mm hm. And so
yeahs as we progress, we're not necessarily improving, and we
need to make that assessment and figure out, Okay, what

(01:27:24):
do we do to fix this right exactly?

Speaker 5 (01:27:29):
Academy is getting to be like more politics. It's almost
like if you talk with you talk with attorneys, like
in my state, you know, over in the Seattle area
versus Eastern Washington area, your level or difference of justice
is going. There's going to be a difference of what

(01:27:49):
you know, you know where you go. If there's a
crime committed in a certain demographics area versus you know,
a different rule area versus urban area, your justice or
the outcome of the case will be different, even though
it shouldn't be. You know, really, if you get one

(01:28:10):
of the bones of it. It shouldn't be, but it is.

Speaker 2 (01:28:13):
And that's that. It's it's the exercise of the Article
eight power that the managerial class says, that's what it is.

Speaker 5 (01:28:25):
And that the academy tends to be a mere image
of that. It's it's infecting the academy to where ideologies
and all that kind of stuff are there versus what
it used to be of the bare bones of the

(01:28:46):
law enforcement doing things. It's it's all this other ideological
stuff being thrown in there. It has no business being
in there, but it was, you know, got to hold
hands and seeing kumba yall now, and so it's.

Speaker 2 (01:29:06):
I don't know, different, yep, it's the Article eight power.
They've spent over one hundred years maneuvering into this position
kind of on purpose.

Speaker 1 (01:29:20):
So so what are other aspects that we have not
yet covered?

Speaker 2 (01:29:29):
Needs?

Speaker 1 (01:29:30):
Services, growth directions?

Speaker 2 (01:29:34):
So we are fundraising into two different buckets, or from
two different sources, into two different buckets. So one bucket
is the actual training, the courses, funding the facility first
and then we're on track for that, but we need

(01:29:55):
a lot more help. And then the second bucket is
the scholarship and down moments and the academic studies and MTTs.
So by priority right now, the first priority is the
first facility. Second priority is starting to build the scholarship

(01:30:16):
endowments and the academic endowments, and then finally the it's
not the leftovers, but the outstanding balance of available resourcing
will be focused on the mobile training teams. Right now,
the way we're filling those buckets is with small donations.
So we've saw it and received several very large donations,

(01:30:39):
but as you guys understand, getting a legitimate organization started
as expensive, very expensive. Some several people have stepped up
to help us do that, and so that is nearing completion.
We're in the middle of the state permitting nightmare of
getting the dirt moved on the first facility, but that's

(01:31:03):
on track. So we're looking for as many as many
twenty dollars a month donors as we can possibly get.
So I understand that the people in the chat, or
on the podcast or are mostly cops anyway, So what

(01:31:24):
we're asking for is for you to express this concept
to others and try to get as many of your
friend's family supporters to sign up for twenty dollars a
month donation there's benefits that come with that. We've already
got companies who you know, the people you would you

(01:31:44):
would suspect, supporting giveaways every month of everything from I
never know with social media what you can say and
what you can't say anymore. But let's just call it
police defensive equipment. Those will be given away every month
to the donors, and the donors can either accept them

(01:32:05):
gratefully or they can donate them to a specific law
enforcement officer that they know or an agency. The discount
code tree that'll be updated every month for them, and
then monthly donors will be able to nominate people to
get priority of their application into the TF seventy courses,

(01:32:28):
so they'll have kind of the first leg up or
first right of refusal for spots and classes those are
going to. Those are going to go fairly rapidly once
we open it. We haven't opened it yet until the
facility gets halfway done. Then we'll open that because we
don't have any debt and we're going to stay that way,

(01:32:49):
so as we raise resourcing, we'll be able to project
kind of a start date for the actual training. The
scholarships for the students include the tuition all the ammunition
four hundred dollars for travel, so if they're flying across

(01:33:10):
the country, it might not cover all of it, but
it'll cover most of it. And then, finally, the biggest
prohibitor from especially these small agencies, from sending people I've had.
I can't tell you how many free spots between all
of us in this room, we've probably given away one
thousand free spots and courses over the years at least.
Right the primary inhibitor of people of cops, small town

(01:33:35):
cops come into class isn't the cost of the tuition.
It's the cost of the overtime backfill, what it costs
to replace them while they're gone. That's why a lot
of guys don't get allowed to come. So it's an foundation.
The foundation is going to eliminate that as a problem.
We're removing all the excuses, not only from the officer,

(01:33:57):
which you know we need the guys who don't really
want to come but know they should. Those are the
guys who need it. So trying to get to those guys,
but more importantly convinced they're the thousands of chiefs and
police and sheriffs that will shit all make money off this.
If you go to this class. That's the incentive, the
proper incentive to get them to send their guys. So

(01:34:21):
we just need them to send them. So some chiefs
will be all in from the beginning. As soon as
I brief chiefs on this, some of them are like,
when can I send my guys? And some of them
don't care. Some of them are like, what's this going
to cost me? So we're trying to address all those challenges,
and the only way we can do that is in

(01:34:42):
a nonprofit. Money is not profit, it's more like electrons.
Money is how we keep power in the system to
keep it functioning. So that's how money works in a
legitimate not an NGO, but an actual nonprofit. So we
need we would love to have more large donations, but

(01:35:05):
that's not really what we need. What we need is
small twenty dollars a month, persistent donations. People who sign
up for that and just leave it turned on like
they do all of their Internet subscriptions and all that stuff.
Just leave it on. That is helping us more in
aggregate than us chasing two or three large donors, because

(01:35:28):
then that also brings in the same reason that we don't.
We are not accepting government grant funding, which is available,
but we're not accepting it because of the strings that
come with it. And we are avoiding the same problem
by focusing on small donations and that if XYZ Corporation

(01:35:49):
gives us three or four million bucks a year to
fund part of the operation, that's great. But then they
control whether they do it implicitly or explicitly. They control
what's taught and the that power belongs at as low
and as experienced a level as possible. By low I

(01:36:11):
mean lowest ranking within society as possible. The people in
the trade should drive the training in the trade, not
the i'd love to see you know x y Z
whis bang you know? Or this particular gun needs to
be in every class and that kind of stuff like

(01:36:33):
That's that's not the it's not a marketing effort, it's
a it's an actual nonprofit foundation so focused on the mission.
So what we really need is folks to tell friends
and family and whatever breach they have, that that they're
they're doing something actually tangibly useful to the country and

(01:36:57):
to their their community in particular, by just given twenty
bucks a month. We need a whole bunch of them
so that's what we're looking for.

Speaker 5 (01:37:07):
Well, maybe I missed this, but what's the logistics difference
of having which I'm not I'm not against. I'm not
saying don't do it, and I'm not against that you
have this center over there in Tennessee, but taking this
thing on the road to the agencies when that way.

Speaker 2 (01:37:30):
Somewhat. We had a large discussion about that for about
a year. So there's there's pluses and minuses to both.
What finally made the decision and it's not a decision
of not doing that. That's part of what the multile
Training Team will be doing is that the challenge is facilities.

(01:37:54):
There's plenty of shoot houses and ranges. The problem is
we need something to do it correctly, something built specifically
for patrol. The vast majority of training facilities are built
for military operations. That's fine, but it is not perfectly
suited for what we're doing. Also, we have found over

(01:38:17):
the years that I taught at Alliance for a long time,
Joe Wire runs a phenomenal program and facility. Part of
the reason Alliance is so effective is that people have
to go there to do that. It gets them out
of their home routine, gets them away from their department
and the distractions they can focus all of their attention

(01:38:39):
on that they're not getting called out to go to
court or getting called out to go to the kids
dentist appointment, or go to a hot call or whatever.
So that's why that's the first priority of training. Secondary
priority for training is the MTT that's not going to
be teaching the until teaching the actual five day courses

(01:39:04):
unless they're such a large demand in an area and
they have facilities that can be adjusted to work, but
they still are. We've basically proven statistically that the classes
are not as effective if they're taught at somebody's home station.
So that's why we're starting. We're building this facility now,

(01:39:25):
and the projection is to build a second facility in
the northwest United States, probably in southern Idaho or northern Utah,
to replicate that west a little bit to spread the load.
Once this one is fully operational and we're able to
gather the resources do it, we're going to immediately build
a second one out west. I don't think you're a questioner.

Speaker 1 (01:39:52):
I guess that's a yes.

Speaker 5 (01:39:53):
I'm going to say good.

Speaker 1 (01:39:55):
Oh. I don't think it would be a bad idea
to explain why it wudn't be in the best interest
to go after federal funds. And the example I can
think of is and we discussed it on the phone
a couple of days ago. I remember ten fifteen years ago,
our agencies, well, we were going to change to a
different radio, and all the agencies in the area were

(01:40:18):
going to change too, and I believe it was an
eight hundred megahertz radio. These are going to be great.
Feds are going to pay for it, but you need
to take our training, you need to go through all
this NIMS whatever. And they got their way, and that was,
of course then, and that was fairly. That really didn't

(01:40:39):
It didn't change anything, but that gives them a lot
of power wherever. You know what, here's the carrot you're
going to now, now you have to do this if
you want this.

Speaker 2 (01:40:51):
That is the danger of centralized grant funding in any circumstance.
There are some circumstances where they're's no other way to
do it, and radios is probably one of them. You're
never going to find enough donors in a ten man
department to buy one hundred and twenty thousand dollars worth
of radios, it's not going to happen. So every agency

(01:41:14):
knowingly accepts that money with the strings and pains in
the ass that you're describing. So in our circumstance, we
would very quickly face two challenges. One of them is,
no matter how much you people want to like centralized
funding in government law enforcement training, every single one of

(01:41:37):
them comes with restrictions and dictates. They just do. So
as much as you want to soft soft hand that
use nice words, whatever, there's going to become a circumstance
where we are teachers teaching something that DOOJ doesn't like.
I guarantee it. So if you want money, you're going

(01:42:00):
to stop teaching that exactly. So secondarily, it creates a
a benefit to grift. So there are dozens of like
most of I mentioned, there's about six hundred million dollars

(01:42:21):
centrally funded annually for law enforcement training by the federal
government for local agencies. About six percent of that reaches
small agencies. So the reason for that is all of
that those dollars are focused on active shooter training, so
that money has to be spent with a particular vendor.
That training sometimes is phenomenal, but it is almost never

(01:42:45):
applicable to that particulars agency's circumstances. So it has to
be taught in such a broad way because it's got
to be done nationally rapidly, assuming there's always going to
be four people on an active shooter or whatever it is. Right.
That also tends to incentivize humans, because humans human nature

(01:43:07):
is a thing like well, if I teach twice the
amount of classes, I can make twice the amount of money,
and that is incentivized by the federal grant system. Once
a grant is granted, you can maximize the service you
provide to the grant's budget. So whether or not you
can effectively deliver that training doesn't matter. It's about the

(01:43:31):
number of signatures you have on the roster. So there
are other ways that this works. It works somewhat the
National Interdiction Narcotics Enforcement Grant, which funds several I think
it's six regional training centers around the country that's centrally

(01:43:52):
funded by the federal government. All of that enforcement training
is provided to a centralized curriculum. Well, does interdiction enforcement investigations?
Do those methodologies apply in my county? On I forty
in Middle Tennessee, The same that they apply in Malibu, California,

(01:44:14):
like probably not. So those are the challenges to centralize
grant funding. There is also the stick of we don't
like what you said on a podcast or whatever, so
your federal money has gone. Once you have been centrally
grant funded, good luck finding a private donor to support

(01:44:36):
your activity. It's not going to happen. You are a
government agent for the rest of your life. So it
is it's not always perfect. That way of thinking is
not always perfect, but it is the reality. So that
is why we are Also, we're not part of Hillsdale College,

(01:44:59):
but we're affiliated where we believe in them and they
believe in us, and they have never accepted a single
dollar of government money for a reason. That is the reason.
You become an agent of the government, whether you want
to or not, and whether it's implicit or explicit. So
that's why we're not accepting any government money. I'd much

(01:45:20):
rather rely on thirty or forty thousand Americans giving us
twenty bucks a month. That's more sustainable, it's a more
dispersed risk for them, it's a more dispersed risk for us,
and it's far more likely to end up with a
constitutionally valid curriculum than a centralized funded case law based,

(01:45:41):
centrally grant funded by the federal government or even a
state government makes sense to me.

Speaker 3 (01:45:49):
Born So at what point would you know having an
article or a news a news piece in p on
it and point with that with that benefit you number
one and number two? How do you get that? How
to get that outside of that? Because cops aren't going

(01:46:10):
to give other cops money house right to give it
out complete P one, It doesn't often leak out to
other media groups where you're going to get the normal
human beings that want.

Speaker 2 (01:46:22):
To support that, and that's who we'd like to support it.
I'm we are in a position now we've spent so
much time in organizational build out because as soon as
anybody knows about it, like the general public, who want
it to be functionally operational, like we're not teaching yet,
but but the land is there. We are walking on

(01:46:43):
it every day. We are discussing and teaching every day,
whether it's through social media or podcasts. Police one is
a very valuable resource now for us just to spread
the constant up we are not seeking. We would gladly

(01:47:04):
accept it and appreciate it, but we're not seeking at
twenty bucks a month from cops. Our goal is not
to more deeply improvise improvished guys who are already making
sixteen bucks an hour like we're looking for their friends,
family and the general public in the American public, the people,

(01:47:26):
and as wide of an audience as possible. So right
now we're seeking to get onto some other some large
media platforms. Podcasts seem to be the most effective and
logical piece for us, whether it's being a guest or advertising.

(01:47:46):
We've already got some budget set aside through existing donors
to start to pump crime that pump to do that.
Plus we've done we've spent a lot of resourcing on
legal counsel to make sure that we can not only legally,
but more more important ethically raise money. There is a

(01:48:11):
fairly fixed cost to raising money. We know exactly what
that is, like what's ethical and reasonable and what's not.
We're not willing to become an American Red Cross, for instance,
where you know sixty five percent of the money that
they raised is burned. An administration and cost of money,
So yes, absolutely on the police one side, but that

(01:48:34):
audience we're more interested in talking to them about the
concept of the foundation and how we can get those
guys cops of all types, all sized agencies, thinking about
what they can be doing to carry the ball down
the field a little bit in the things that they're
experts in and spreading the word about the resourcing support

(01:48:55):
we could use from their friends and primary it. Would
it be too early in the next few months to
do something like that, Absolutely not. No, that's that's absolutely good.
We're we're on track over the next couple of weeks
to continue the soft launch. So I mean I could
I could probably get onto one of the Pig podcasts tomorrow.

(01:49:16):
We're we're not doing that. We're trying to soft launch
and let the people in the tribe know what's going
on so that when somebody asks them about it, they
like touching us. And this group first allows when somebody
who's not a cop asks them what this thing is,
they can say, yes, it's legitimate. They're not they're not

(01:49:37):
trying to buy themselves a ferrari, like this is, this
is what it is. All of us took a pay
cut to come to the foundation full time, so like
that's I.

Speaker 3 (01:49:46):
Will, I'll reach out to the editor.

Speaker 2 (01:49:48):
I started the emails.

Speaker 3 (01:49:49):
I won't forget that would just kind of give your
an idea of what's going on. I don't know how
she would want to cover that. It maybe uh well,
maybe we would just do and do an interview and
write a little people write up on them. I want
to put it on the news side that you know,
it sounds like a fantastic deal to me. You're taking
out all the all the excuses.

Speaker 2 (01:50:09):
Hmm. We're trying, We're trying.

Speaker 3 (01:50:12):
I'm I'm I'm having this conversation with my chief, and
I was like, Nope, nope, not that one, not that one,
not that one, not that one, not that one.

Speaker 5 (01:50:19):
Nope, not that one either.

Speaker 3 (01:50:21):
And yeah, yeah, it's really good.

Speaker 2 (01:50:24):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (01:50:27):
Well, you said these things about police one, what about
American Cop?

Speaker 2 (01:50:31):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (01:50:31):
You know, I got one guy that's okay over there sometimes.

Speaker 2 (01:50:35):
You know, when American Cop first started, I wrote a
couple of I'm pretty sure it was for American Cop.
I wrote a couple of articles. I stopped writing magazine articles,
but I love that magazine and it's so hard to
find unless you're in that loop already. Okay, what I mean.

(01:50:58):
It was a print magazine for years now, Dean.

Speaker 4 (01:51:02):
They resurrected in twenty twenty the Riots and everything else
as online only, so it's right dot com. Right, doesn't
cost anything to subscribe, sign up for the email. Actually
click through it. On that note, Actually, I got a bail.
I've got three days of classes. I got a prep
for because Steve's going to show up and make fun
of me if they're not like confident right using his AMMO. Anyway, John,

(01:51:26):
thanks for reaching out to including me talking to me
about some of the stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:51:31):
Eric, thank you brother.

Speaker 5 (01:51:33):
Before you tick off that day.

Speaker 2 (01:51:34):
But you're you're more appreciated than you know. Okay, but
not that there's.

Speaker 1 (01:51:39):
Anything wrong with that at all. Before you take off,
you the listener, the viewer, support those sources that you
found to be beneficial. Eric's going to say something. If
you like what he says, you probably need to give him,
like a follow, a subscribe when he's sharing stuff that
you like, share it to include his class is.

Speaker 5 (01:52:00):
Yeah, he already did.

Speaker 4 (01:52:02):
I'm the editor at American cop My company is Cougar
Mountain Solutions at Kugar Mountain Solutions dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:52:08):
On Facebook, on Instagram.

Speaker 4 (01:52:10):
Right, it's end user and instructor development stuff in the
areas of low light, shotgun and pistol mounted optics. The
low light classes is probably hands down my favorite to teach.
That's a quarter four quarter one class agencies. A lot
of you just started your new fiscal years. You've got
a whole bunch of cash right now. Encumber it before
the being counters bend it on. Oh, I don't know

(01:52:34):
some sort of program that does not benefit you putting
bad guys in jail, So reach out for low light instructor,
optics instructor or shotgun stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:52:42):
Thanks guys, good to see everybody against EVLC in the morning.
Thank you. Take ericsred Dot instructor course. Thank you. Foind
out by Warren.

Speaker 3 (01:52:51):
How about you we can talk nice about Eric Ally's
gone right. I agree, absolutely absolutely take that to red
dot and structure class guys.

Speaker 2 (01:53:01):
That was a really good one.

Speaker 3 (01:53:03):
And uh, I've got an article coming out in Police
one on his on shotgun stuff via Eric Gailhouse Shock
on Police one shotgun stuff, why cops should keep shotguns
not hearing them what they are. So we had a
cool little conversation about that. Uh my only real thing

(01:53:25):
I occasionally write one for Eric American Cop and I
get unlazy enough to write extra stuff, which is rare
mostly just over at Police one of a columnists technically,
but I kind of just write whenever I get an
assignment or want to. And I do a little training
on the side defensive trading services dot com. And I
do a couple of little couple of little of the
of the conferences, but not done a whole lot of

(01:53:46):
that kind of stuff pretty much just to nobody that
Matt lan Ferrell keeps me around. I think I'm making
look good. So I think I raised the water level
a little bit, make him look a little better.

Speaker 1 (01:53:57):
Well, you were seconds this one, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:54:01):
I was gonna, I was gonna. I was just telling
them the story about he got forty five whatever you
you were.

Speaker 2 (01:54:07):
Down like.

Speaker 1 (01:54:12):
Technology, that's awesome, And and Warren is taller in person.

Speaker 2 (01:54:20):
That's what I've heard. Yeah, say Steve.

Speaker 1 (01:54:26):
Final thoughts plugs all that good stuff by.

Speaker 5 (01:54:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, always buy him.

Speaker 2 (01:54:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:54:35):
There's several agencies that I supply for AMMO, so you know,
we can always work things out. I know that's a
budget for.

Speaker 2 (01:54:48):
Budget crunches are there.

Speaker 5 (01:54:51):
Trying to work with some agencies that are just I
don't want to say pathetic, but with their with their budgets.
But overnight a few agencies are just bottom of them.
You know, I'm just going, I don't know how you're
functioning what you got, and I've offered free training to them,
and you know, here's some Ammo paymulater. You know, I've

(01:55:16):
got a soft spot for the people in the in
the blue and green, since I wore both of the
uniforms City and CA. I just like to help people
out mm hmm. In a good position to do that,
I've I've done that with a lot of the people
in the industry with these different loads and things. Okay,

(01:55:38):
can you make that? I said, yeah, I'll make you anything.
Let me know what you want and I can do it.
I like being small that way, I can.

Speaker 2 (01:55:44):
I can do that. I can answer the phone still.

Speaker 5 (01:55:46):
And talk to the people.

Speaker 1 (01:55:48):
What's that You're agile? Possibility is flexible?

Speaker 5 (01:55:57):
Yeah, Yeah, my schedules fle some of my bodies not
as agile as it used to be. Yeah, actually qualify
for Social Security this year, So that's been you know anyway,
So yeah, High Desert Cartridge Company, Highdesert Cartridge dot com
or on Facebook and Instagram. And I'm not a marketing person.

Speaker 2 (01:56:18):
You know, I'm not.

Speaker 5 (01:56:19):
People ask me about business. I be aware. I know
nothing about running a business. Just make ammo, get paycheck.
That's all I know. But I like, I like working
with people to get their needs met. If they're looking
for something like you, Matt coming about you know six
y five c possibility, it's like, let me know what

(01:56:40):
you need. And if that agency needs practice, AMMO from
six y five creed more than.

Speaker 2 (01:56:44):
I can provide that.

Speaker 5 (01:56:45):
And I'm not too big to be able to stop
what I'm doing and going, hey, I got something else
can load for me. I can do this, these these
projects and uh yeah, get agencies and people covered with
different things. Well yeah, just probably just man.

Speaker 1 (01:57:01):
Going back to our discussion when what was it two
to three months ago where we were talking about ballistics
and ammunition. There were some really cool concepts that were discussed.
And the more I thought about it, the more I thought,
and I think I just posted today or yesterday talking
about how high desert is. That's That's what I'm using

(01:57:24):
now for my carry and my practice for all of
my revolvers. And similar to what we were talking about
case law versus constitution. If you understand the concepts and
the ammunition meets what you need. I don't need to
have this whatever special, not even special. It's meeting a standard.

(01:57:49):
The ammunition you're producing is meeting what I needed to meet.
So guess what I'm going to carry it. It doesn't
need to be made by Federal, it doesn't need to
be made by any a server company. If it's eating
my needs, we're good.

Speaker 5 (01:58:03):
Yeah, I get that. A lot people said, well, you're
you know, you reload a lot of stuff. I said, no,
I don't reload a lot of stuff. It's all new stuff.
It's done on it's done on computer controlled machines. You know. Well,
I like to buy, you know. I had people say, well,
you know, well, I want to buy.

Speaker 2 (01:58:21):
From a manufacturer. I am a manufacturer. A manufacturer.

Speaker 5 (01:58:25):
Yeah, the same certain and the same licenses as Federal
and Winchester have you know. I said, if you don't
want to buy from me, just say it. But come on,
you know I'm not I'm not you know uncle Frank
down on his basement, sucking on a cigar and drinking whiskey,
well hand cranking on a you know, on a machine.

Speaker 1 (01:58:43):
No, you are watching you're watching reruns of cheers, sitting
on a on a recliner going.

Speaker 2 (01:58:48):
One one at a time.

Speaker 5 (01:58:50):
Yeah, yeah, you'reloader, and yeah eating bond bonds and yeah, yep.

Speaker 2 (01:58:56):
No, it's I need that job.

Speaker 5 (01:59:00):
Yeah, watching machines go up and down and rank the AMMO.
But no, it's it's been a ride probably the last
two three years.

Speaker 2 (01:59:14):
Getting more out there.

Speaker 5 (01:59:15):
When working with Darren Bulk on that three fifty seven load,
that was the biggest thing. And then you know, I
did the the TMJ and he wanted a matching defense load.
Well he stopped the TMJ at you know, nine thirty
five at the velocity, and he wanted to matching defensive load. Hollowpoint.

(01:59:38):
And I go back to you know, I started law
enforcement mid eighties and all the writings and teachings and
then you know, well not only with in law enforcement,
but just out in the communities. You know, different publications,
shooting times whatever, people are running three fifty seven at
you know what Caleb Gettings would say, monck Jesus, and

(02:00:01):
thinking that you have to run it there to get
that thing to perform. And so I'm old school. I
mixed up ten percent of jail, got it at the
right temperature and calibrate it with the air rifle and
punch some XTP and do it at nine thirty five.
And this stuff got twenty inches of penetration and the
bullet expanded, which was supposed to happen.

Speaker 2 (02:00:23):
And so I punched another.

Speaker 5 (02:00:26):
Thirty rounds of it in two different blocks, and they
all got between eighteen to twenty inches of penetration. Every
one of those xtps expanding out is they don't expand
again like an HST or a gold dot does, like
a nice little flower. It's I think one of the
only pistol rounds and on the box it's actually says

(02:00:46):
I'm hunting self defense, and so it's a deep penetrator
as darrel, which I agree, dearre with Darryl. It's a
late bloomer. It will get the penetration and they expand
a little bit more.

Speaker 2 (02:01:00):
And so then trying to get people out of.

Speaker 5 (02:01:03):
That that mindset of the seventies and eighties and nineties
discussions on ballistics. You know, come on, people, we're thirty
years removed or more removed from that. Let's get up
to date on the technology of bullet construction and what
we're doing here. We don't have to have the extra
blast and recoil a belch of flame going out six

(02:01:26):
feet you know, on a three seven and get the
performance that we need to do what it needs to do.
You know, we go back to the you know, to
the eighty six Miami thing, you know, the silver tip.
It performed exactly how the engineers designed it to perform.
They just didn't realize that it might have a little

(02:01:47):
bit more of an oblique angle where it might need
a little more penetration. But it expanded, It did everything
it needed to do as poor it was designed to do.

Speaker 2 (02:01:57):
And so.

Speaker 5 (02:01:59):
You know, we have to look at those things, and
now we have to look at Okay, we've we've jumped
out of that realm. There's been so much testing and
things done that bullets today aren't the same as bullets there.
But we can't get people out of thirty years ago discussions.
I mean, you see it man on the on the
you know, it's you just kind of want to take

(02:02:20):
your Facebook and just toss it some times because you get,
you know, I've been attacked on there, and everybody else
gets attacked on there, and there's going come out of
the eighties people.

Speaker 1 (02:02:30):
You know, yeah, it's not you know, listen to some
Gary Roberts mm hmm.

Speaker 5 (02:02:37):
Yeah, and I go back to that. You know, Eric,
Eric's aid our this is that same seminar. We have
a yearly seminar here in Washington States, Washington State Law
Enforcement Firearms Instructors Association. That's what Eric's at right now.
So I'll see him to Mari's about two. He's about
two hours from me. I'll see him tomorrow with some.

Speaker 2 (02:02:54):
Anno and Gary came to that.

Speaker 5 (02:02:57):
I want to say, back two thousand and three oh four,
and I mentioned this on this podcast, we did met
and that was absolutely We have usually had a speaker
on Wednesday night and I don't know who got Gary there,
but that was I think we're there usually it's like
an hour or an hour and a half or two

(02:03:18):
tok it's about eleven o'clock at night. No one was leaving.
He had you know, powerpoints and you know, photographs and
slide whatever else to show and and then.

Speaker 2 (02:03:29):
We had a good question to answered here.

Speaker 5 (02:03:30):
I think that's what took most time. But what was
interesting is we had such an a big deal back
in the you know, back and then where we had
the manufacturers from Federal were there, and Hornity and Winchester
and Remington were all there and they were doing ballistic
tests we had. It was a big deal.

Speaker 2 (02:03:50):
It was a big week. It was a week.

Speaker 5 (02:03:51):
It's not as much as it isn't you know now
it's kind of the shadow of itself, but it was.
It was a huge thing. We had armor classes from
you know, Cold Commune with oh Ken Elmore would come
up from Specialized armat Warehouse back in the day, and
and you know, Smith and Wesson would show up, Dennis
tour would show up from Glock and do his arm

(02:04:13):
It was a big deals anyway. So we got to
the question answer period and and people are asking about, hey,
are do the AMO is this? What are you thinking?
He just let it, you know, go now, this is
what we're seeing. It's doing not working that well. And
about the third time someone said that my one of
my mentors, what I'll see tomorrow I haven't dinner with.
He nudged me. He says, when Gary talks about some

(02:04:37):
of the AMMO, that these departments whatever, and he starts
poop pooing it or going you probably should change something else.
Look at the back of the room at the reps
and look at their reaction on their faces. Is that going?
Probably not a good thing. But Gary's is an honest guy.
You know, he just calls it as he sees it.

Speaker 2 (02:04:55):
And I learned a lot from him.

Speaker 5 (02:04:58):
I was starting to do my my own base, my
own research based on autopsies that I was attending a
gunshot victims and I had I think at that time
I had five or six under my belt, and I
had I actually had my notebook with me. I don't
know why always because it was in my petrol car
and I ran out and got it. And Gary actually

(02:05:22):
spent the time with me about half an hour and said,
this is what I'm seeing. This is how I'm doing
my research. What do you think? He goes, Now, you're
spot on, stay stay on track with your with your
parameters on how you're judging these things. You're judging it,
very good, on how you're doing it. So I go on, good,

(02:05:42):
you know, I'm seeing things whatever. And that was the
biggest opening for me. It was him, and then that
was good. And the second jolt was again the dB
load or I'm running stuff at three fifty seven at
nine thirty five, which is well under what you know,
eleven twelve hundred feet a second, which is normal stuff.
And we backtrack again on a little side note here.

(02:06:04):
When I first got in law enforced, when were running
Model ten, so I got the Sheriff's office. We run
of L frames three fifty sevens, and the program manager
had to had to have full house three fifty seven
for everything, and we get you know, for training qualifications whatever,
and then we get fifty rounds a month. Well, a

(02:06:25):
lot of people weren't using the rounds, and I was
grabbing everything in shooting snot out of those two guns. Well,
within about three years, I put two of those in
the warranty department of Smith. Didn't stretch the frame, but
they came out of time leads, spitting a lot of
end shake. They just weren't made. Then we got a
letter back from Smith when they got them fixed, going

(02:06:45):
don't use these for you know, full house as a
as a as a daily diet type of thing. When that,
I guess that's how they were originally marketed to be.
It was a you know, a model nineteens can't do it,
but you know this L frame is a tougher.

Speaker 2 (02:07:01):
No, they can't. They can't take it either.

Speaker 5 (02:07:04):
I don't know what's going on nowadays, but anyways, so
all my rounds have been I'm Chuck Haggard has done
a lot of ballistic testing for me. I don't publish
my own block jail tests because I've had people poo
poot me in the past, going, you did something with
your you know, you're trying to tell me that you're

(02:07:24):
running that thing at that velocity blah blah blah forrseshit.
You know, they get after me about it. So I
let I let Chuck Haggard do it. I let other
people do it. Chuck will run it through, you know,
throw a chrono into the block and he'll say, this
is what I'm getting.

Speaker 2 (02:07:36):
I was like, well, here you go.

Speaker 5 (02:07:38):
You'd after Chuck after them, you know if you think
Chuck and Iron cahoots, which are not but whatever. And
so I'm finding that you don't need to run hardly
any of these rounds I'm talking about for humans. You know,
something different than animal. Animal is way different, well Hammel
a way different animal than you know than a human.
But you don't need to run these things that fast

(02:07:59):
to get the good performance. Beat yourself up, beat the
gun up, blast recoil, slow follow up. And I'm also
getting I'm also getting expansion out of snub revolvers and
people say I can't find around and I pull some
money and going wells not experience. What's next team? But

(02:08:20):
it's getting the penetration you need, you know. And every
if you talk about human defense, it's all about expansion.
If you talk about hunters, it's all about penetration. You
never hardly hear about them talk about expansion. It always
seems to be about penetration. And I'm going, what's the difference?
Name one threat? Does ever stop by expansion alone?

Speaker 1 (02:08:42):
All?

Speaker 2 (02:08:43):
Wait?

Speaker 5 (02:08:45):
You know, if you get expansion celebrated doesn't mean you're
always going to get it. But if you put the
shot where it needs to go, how about we we
go back to like training, how about accuracy?

Speaker 2 (02:08:56):
You know?

Speaker 5 (02:08:57):
I mean, you know, I carried a revolver up into
the mid nineties, you know, when people were already transitioned
to autos and I didn't. I have a problem.

Speaker 2 (02:09:06):
That doesn't look as good on Instagram when you can
put up a shot tarmer and show everybody what you're
shooting at.

Speaker 5 (02:09:13):
Yeah, yeah, how many rounds do you need?

Speaker 2 (02:09:18):
Just want to you know.

Speaker 5 (02:09:22):
So anyways, it's been a good ride working with the
industry people. I just got called there's a I can't
say it because he hasn't got the gun yet. It's
a prominent older gun writer who they made this.

Speaker 2 (02:09:37):
Brian? Why that's what it is?

Speaker 5 (02:09:39):
No, it's not right. Yeah, well actually I'm older than Briant.

Speaker 1 (02:09:45):
Oh everyone's older than Brian. What are you talking about?

Speaker 5 (02:09:48):
They resurrected. They asked me to resurrect the forty one special,
which is a very obscure cartridge. Yeah. Yeah, Starline made
the brass and I I resurrected it, got it back
towards you know it is, and I got a couple
hundred rounds headed down to the specific person and they're
going to present them with a forty one special here

(02:10:10):
I think this weekend.

Speaker 2 (02:10:12):
And they asked me if I would They commissioned.

Speaker 5 (02:10:15):
Me to do the animal for it, which I was
pretty happy to do.

Speaker 2 (02:10:20):
So.

Speaker 5 (02:10:20):
I love that part where people can call me and say,
can you make this? Yeah, I can make it as
long as I have within the calibers I already make.

Speaker 2 (02:10:28):
Yeah, And I run.

Speaker 5 (02:10:30):
Mark seven machines and the retool. One of these things
is about a half a day and then get the
shell plate and all the accessories for it. It's probably
twelve hundred bucks or better for caliber, So it's not
a whole lot of fun. It's like, you know, can
you make me x Well, yeah, if you want to,
if you want to buy ten thousand rounds, and you know,
I'll make it for you. But I can't make you know,

(02:10:50):
three boxes of something whatever. So I'm kind of I
went into the forty one special gun. I'll just get
a couple of thousand brass and just make a minimum amount.
I already sold. It's not even on the website, but
I said, you know, it's not going to be cataloged
for a while whatever. But I got calls and emails
all day to day going, hey, we'll take what you got.

(02:11:11):
Who Okay, maybe we'll Cadillac catalog it after all on
the website. But that's the kind of stuff I love.
I love doing that for people. You got you gottay.
I love to solve it.

Speaker 1 (02:11:23):
I just got to say, though, it is so nice
to have a source. Thirty eight three, fifty seven, thirty.

Speaker 5 (02:11:31):
Two, Yeah, easy, easy. That was a good thing about
the thirty two. Daryl calls me I think right before
the UCS came out, and he says, can you make
thirty two as I make anything? And uh, I said,
send me a gun and i'll you know, but you
need to calibrate to a certain guy to send me
the gun. Well, we can't because it's not you were
on under NDA.

Speaker 2 (02:11:52):
You can't.

Speaker 5 (02:11:52):
You can't hold it. What am I supposed to do?
But I don't have the gun? So I went and
got a LCR and three twenty seven and calibrated to
the you know, yeah they are, and I sent them.
You know, I took about five times and I got
to the thirty two's calibrated to the UC gun. But
as we're doing the calibration for the UC the LCR

(02:12:13):
is maybe just a tick different, but you're not going
to notice anything. It's right there with it as well.
Then I started shooting the stuff in. My wife has
an old model thirty one. I frame of the skill
a little bit. I think I think they just went.
I think they just went to thirty third man. I
think the thirty one is a jay back in the

(02:12:35):
fifties or sixties, and it's got a three inch barrow
in it. It's dead nuts on as well for the
thirty two and shooting the hollow points and whatever else,
and it's it's like it's pretty decent. And then my
thirty eighths are based on my model ten to two inch,
but I was six forty two inch and set it
still is dead nuts on you know. I mean, obviously

(02:12:58):
if you go out twenty five thirty yard, I know
it's the difference, but you know, fifteen twelve fifteen yards
on end, that's like negligible. And shooting is fun again
and not beating yourself up all the time. But absolutely, Yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (02:13:15):
Think I think I'm going to buy some tonight. I'm
going to play some order for some just your random
sixty five, some forty four mag ands, some forty four special,
just because I need to see how much do I
need to stock up with this. I'm just excited. I'm
excited to have it available. Yes, so people ask people

(02:13:35):
ask me how much can you buy? Is you buy
the whole store if you want to?

Speaker 5 (02:13:38):
Yeah, Well, for me, even during COVID, people, even during COVID,
I would not have any restrictions. It's like, yeah, is
a restrict what you can buy? Because that was that
was a big thing I said, no, buy the whole
store if you want to.

Speaker 1 (02:13:49):
Yeah. Well for me though, with all my random thirty eight, three,
fifty seven, forty four and all this stuff now that
I've found, okay, this is going to be my source.
Everything else this is now range Jamo. I'm just gonna
shoot it. I don't need to hold on to it,
because I'd rather standardize what I have as opposed to
have a box of this hare and a box of

(02:14:10):
this there. I have stuff for specific purposes and leave
it as that.

Speaker 5 (02:14:17):
The only thing I asked for people who are listening
or watching this thing is if you have a problem
with the am, will get a hold of me.

Speaker 2 (02:14:22):
You know. I had a guy get on.

Speaker 5 (02:14:25):
A few months ago said, you know, stay clear of
my AMI because my primers were set too deep. And
I you know, so I messaged him and call him.
I said, do you have a gauge to let me
know what that what the primers are set at? I said,
all my stuff is done at Sammy Speck, you know,
And he I don't have a gauge, Well, then how
do you know how deep they are?

Speaker 2 (02:14:43):
You know?

Speaker 5 (02:14:43):
Just let me to send this stuff back and I'll
gauge it and I'll I'll replace this stuff. Never, he
would never do it. It's like, you know, I can't
help you if you're not going to help me. Yeah,
but my machines are incapable of doing that. Once they're set,
they can't set us primary any deeper. And they're all
done within Sammy speck of the death of a primer.
So I don't you know, if there's problem with the primers,
that's something I can't It's beyond me. I mean, I

(02:15:06):
have to go back to the manufacturer of Federal or CCI.
If there's a problem with stuff not going off, it's
you know, all replaced. I turn around a CCI and CEC.
I replaces my primers and whatever is a problem. But
I'm here to help people out. But if I don't
hear about it, can I do?

Speaker 2 (02:15:25):
How can you exactly?

Speaker 5 (02:15:27):
Yeah, that's that's irritating to me because I think I've
been over backwards for a lot of things, you know,
especially when people come in me for a special request
like this forty one special and whatever else they've had
me do. So let me know, give you some feedback.
You know, I can't change what I'm doing. I don't
know what you know, what's wrong out there. But luckily

(02:15:47):
I'm on a piece of property. I got forty acres
and I got my own tundy yard range, So when
I do out my stuff, I can walk out fifty
yards out my back door of my house. I'm doing
my arrange testing. It's really nice to have your own
range for that, and I can spend hours out there
and really dial and detail that stuff in and it's.

Speaker 2 (02:16:06):
I love doing it, you know.

Speaker 1 (02:16:08):
Yeah, well, all my experience has been fantastic in both
the revolvers and multiple revolvers, multiple makes, multiple models, but
also I and I have my one ROSSI three fifty
seven and running three fifty seven and thirty eighth, sir.

Speaker 5 (02:16:22):
It runs fantastic. Chuck do some stuff through the lever
gun and that XTP is phenomenal. It acts like a
mushroomed hunting around like an old Remington core locked or something. Yeah,
it's they work great. And then I've had special things
from Steve Fisher. I did a round for Steve Fisher. Yeah,

(02:16:43):
I believe it in sixty five grain. That's doing about
mock Jesus and a half and it's a pump a thumper.
I was out at seventy five yards with my eighteen
ninety four Marlon forty four magnum and I had one
of those big mgm steel was the full size three
eights thick silhouette plates, and I hit that thing and

(02:17:03):
and it knocked it. It rung it hard enough where
it rocked it back and then it fell forward on
its you know, on its face. Was like thump, my dang.
And then I did that waned for Brian with a
y at three hundred the meat hammer and it does.

Speaker 2 (02:17:18):
The same thing.

Speaker 5 (02:17:21):
So yeah, I mean got something you want, let me
know I can that can.

Speaker 1 (02:17:27):
And that is Steve at High Desert Cartridge Company.

Speaker 2 (02:17:32):
That's me.

Speaker 5 (02:17:33):
Yes, what's your website, High Desert Cartridge dot Yeah, High
Dosert Cartridge dot Com. You have to ask me, I
should I should be around that right off? It's like
electronics guy, right, I mean I rode a horse for
twenty some odd years, you know, right, and so packing
and doing stuff with the forest or you know. I
first started on my own. So I was like, this

(02:17:57):
electronics stuff is just I don't know, High Dosert Cartridge
dot Com. Awesome, it's the website. So I'm also looking
at feedback on the website. I got a friend that
does it. He does really well, and so since he's
really accessible, he can change it on the dime. But
people are having trouble with it. It has been changed

(02:18:17):
a few times. I get feedback on the website, can't
find things or whatever. So we when you get on
there and curl down, it'll say shop everything or shop
something like that, and then when it switches over you'll
see just to the right, up or right, it'll give
you the you'll say pistol based on the on the

(02:18:37):
rounds pistol, lever, rifle or a revolver. So it's got
four different categories of rounds. So we do lever rounds
or start. We're doing hunting rounds now and of course revolver,
and then pistol rounds. Pistol be in the semi auto
stuff I got thirty eight Super is going to be
spun up here a little bit and then add more

(02:18:59):
revolver stuff. I'm doing another spect out thing for dB.
I can't say anything on that. I'll let him present
that when it comes out, and then yeah, and then
I'll be doing some thirty eight Super. Oh, and then
I'm getting a push for ten milimeter again. I did

(02:19:19):
ten millimeters, like four or five years ago, I did
like a five thousand round batch just sat on the
shelf and gathered desker. It took me three years to
get rid of it.

Speaker 3 (02:19:27):
But that was if you don't make it nuclear, those
guys won't buy it.

Speaker 6 (02:19:31):
And those guys, yeah, well, I think a lot of
it was I was an unknown back then as well,
and now being known and being the name being thrown
out all over the place, and having.

Speaker 5 (02:19:44):
My gun writers call me or get a hold of
me asking for samples for their articles and stuff, and
so it's it's being used in the same articles as
you know. It's Federal and other other animal companies that
you know when they're changing.

Speaker 3 (02:19:59):
By the way, I'm in that organization that forty one
is being is being given and that is going to
be a very very cool thing to be.

Speaker 2 (02:20:08):
That you're being a part of.

Speaker 3 (02:20:09):
I'll hit you up offline. I don't know if you'd
invited to it or not yet, but it's a pretty
cool deal.

Speaker 2 (02:20:19):
No, I have it.

Speaker 5 (02:20:21):
Yeah, I I asked you about it, Matt. I don't
have a date. It seems like it's that said. The
person got a hold of me, emailed me this morning
and said, how's that forty one coming along? Everybody got
a hold of about it. It's a pretty it's a
very cool deal. Yeah, I'm probably going to go to

(02:20:42):
a gun show and see if I can pick up
a specimen to have it modified. So I got a
hold of the people that be going you might want
to get that thing.

Speaker 3 (02:20:54):
Everybody every really excited about it. It's a it's a
very very cool deal. And I'm just from back to
the Facebook page to make sure they didn't give it
give it out yet, I hope.

Speaker 5 (02:21:03):
And I told I said, I want pictures of him
with it, with the AMMO I want.

Speaker 3 (02:21:10):
I want there. Yeah, yeah, they'll be out there. I
had to I had to miss our annual this year,
but it's it's a very cool, very cool deal. And
I am going to have to. I got to drive
tomorrow six hours, so I'm gonna have to punch out
it happens. But John, if you can reach out to

(02:21:31):
me on on on Facebook.

Speaker 2 (02:21:33):
Or wherever, I absolutely will thank you.

Speaker 3 (02:21:36):
Reach out and I sent that email and we'll we'll
try to get taken care of. Steve's good to talk
to you.

Speaker 2 (02:21:42):
Yep.

Speaker 5 (02:21:43):
If you want to get a hold of me, you
can email me at Steve at High Desert Cartridge dot com.

Speaker 2 (02:21:49):
Yeah, I have.

Speaker 3 (02:21:52):
I've got I've got I'm pulling up right now looking
trying to buy Anima again.

Speaker 2 (02:21:56):
Guy.

Speaker 1 (02:21:56):
Yeah, I have my other screen and i have everything
just ready.

Speaker 2 (02:22:01):
I've got all that stuff we talked about another.

Speaker 1 (02:22:04):
Thank you very much for including me anytime.

Speaker 2 (02:22:07):
I thank you, Warren, it was great to see you.

Speaker 1 (02:22:12):
Oh you guys have as he's he doesn't count.

Speaker 2 (02:22:15):
We don't care.

Speaker 1 (02:22:16):
He sucks, so chappie, final thoughts, final plugs.

Speaker 2 (02:22:20):
I'm very grateful for for being able to kind of
soft launch on here. Matt.

Speaker 1 (02:22:25):
It's any time, anytimes. And if there if there are
different facets that you want to cover, let me know
and we'll.

Speaker 2 (02:22:31):
Absolutely absolutely and vice versa. We've uh, we've got the
podcast stuff built, so we'll be pushing that out and
kind of uh co locating with you and I've got
some stuff about that to talk to you about offline.
But uh, any support folks are willing to give is
deeply appreciated. And right now we need donations and we're

(02:22:55):
not we're not uh we're not doing it under a
bridge to make money or anything. We're not broke. But
The donations are always are gratefully wanted, especially long term
twenty dollars a month donations, especially with friends and family
who want to support cops and do more than post
on Facebook for you know, for prayers and stuff, which

(02:23:17):
is appreciated. But we could use some of that money
that you're spending on whatever stuff you're subscribed to on
Etsy or or what's that a Patreon or whatever, if
you could throw some of that our way, it would
be put to excellent use. The best way to do
that is to hit us at TF that's Tom Frank

(02:23:38):
or task for seven zero dot org dot org or
a legit five oh one C three and you'll get
a tax deduction if you itemize your taxes. Most folks
don't so, but it is they're available to you. Plus
you get the other benefits of donating and having a
chance to I guess on the internet. You can't say
that you're going to win something, but you have the

(02:24:02):
chance to be randomly selected to be to get a
very very very nice gift generously donated by some of
our our existing large sponsors. So you're very much appreciated,
and I appreciate you giving me the time and I'm
happy to have time with work now to get back

(02:24:24):
on the podcast more often. I hadn't been on in years,
so I'm very appreciative.

Speaker 1 (02:24:30):
And I love those topics. Love those Yes, me too,
the concepts me too.

Speaker 2 (02:24:36):
If you see us on social media, you can search
that's the logo you're looking for on TF seventy foundation
or some variation thereof, on all the usual suspects for
social media. Those are all up and run and we
haven't been promoting them heavily until this week. So if
you could go and like and subscribe and all the

(02:24:58):
stuff that you're encouraged to dociate it and the podcast
will probably launch in a couple of weeks. Matt will
have a lot more information on that before any of
you all do, but we'll be pushing it out. And
if you know small town cops who have stuff to
say but nobody will listen to them, I'd be happy

(02:25:19):
to have them on the podcast. So those are the
kind of guys we're looking to have his guests, in
addition to the folks that can provide information not only
to cops but to citizens to learn more about how,
especially how small the town departments actually work. It's very
valuable to citizens. So TF seventy dot org.

Speaker 1 (02:25:43):
Good deal, good deal. Well, thanks for the panel, great
discussion as per the norm. And yeah, if you guys
have something you want to discuss, have a topic, or
or if there's someone that you want to have on,
no problem, no problem, right, Big thanks of the panel.
Big thank you to you the listener of the viewer.

(02:26:03):
Big thank you to the sponsors Lucky Gunner, Filster and Walter. Additionally,
big thank you to our network support people who are
on Patreon. Go to patreon dot com slash Primary and Secondary,
or if you go to the forum on Primary and
Secondary dot com slash forum, there's a banner that says
network support. From there, you can also support the network.
Have all these different cogs, all these free resources for

(02:26:26):
your use. I love providing this, I love having these discussions.
I do it because I'm selfish, because I get to
learn and I get to grow because of this kind
of stuff. And I get to use these kind of
guys to see if I'm insane. I get to bounce
some of these ideas.

Speaker 2 (02:26:42):
Oh no, no, I'm more for the tribe than they're
doing for you. Bro.

Speaker 1 (02:26:45):
Well that might be, that could be so, but I
really do. I get so much out of these discussions,
just the importance of the Constitution in law enforcement and
daily application, understanding ballistics, understanding why we're looking for what
we're looking looking for, and these are the where the

(02:27:09):
place that I've grown the most, that I've learned the
most is through these interactions on these podcasts over this
last ten years, and it's been absolutely awesome. I think
that's pretty much it. I think I have been getting
texts from the wife saying that the four year old
needs to be put away, So I think I'm going to.

Speaker 2 (02:27:25):
Attend to that better that barn. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:27:29):
Yeah, So I think that's pretty much it. I can't
think anything else, so I guess I'll talk thank you
about and thank.

Speaker 2 (02:27:36):
You to everybody nice meets Jeffie, you too, sir. Thank
you
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