P&S ModCast 435 - The Versatility of 45 Colt - Primary & Secondary Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey one, Matt Landfair here with primary and secondary.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome to podcast. The episode is four three.

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Five Today's date July seventeenth, twenty twenty five. We will
be talking about the versatility of forty five cult. It's
going to be one of those Revolver episodes and for
me personally, it was absolutely crazy to find out that
John was a Revolver guy. So this is this is
going to be a treat. This is going to be
a tree for a lot of people. I suspect it's

(00:31):
going to be your parents.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
That's exactly what it is like to break it to you, guys.

Speaker 3 (00:36):
I really don't give a shit about AR fifteen's a
night vision anymore?

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Night Vision Yep, yep, it's not weird.

Speaker 4 (00:44):
You know.

Speaker 5 (00:44):
The guys who actually use all that stuff for real
could care less.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yeah yeah, full circle, full circle. Also, the other aspect
of this being a treat is it is another one
of those Revolver episodes. We had an episode last night
kind of talked about how things cycle in and out
and revolvers are back and then some and they are
back with a vengeance, as are shotguns, and it's interesting

(01:09):
to see like shotgun or not checkgun rifle stuff kind
of has gotten out of the mainstream. Handgun classes have
taken over, and now revolvers, and so this specific topic today,
talking about forty five fold is going to be a
specially interesting for me personally because I have no experience,
So that means I get to sit back, I get

(01:29):
to listen, and I get to enjoy it. And these
are my favorites. So I'm going to say my favorite thing,
and I say this at the beginning and I try
to at the end of every episode. It is make
sure that you are supporting those sources that you have
found would be beneficial. What I mean by that is
there are a lot of really good content creators out there.
There's a lot of really good content. There's a lot

(01:52):
of it's educational, it can be entertaining.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
It all over the place.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
If you aren't giving likes, if you're not sharing, if
you're not subscribed, you're doing your favorite channels at the service.
And it doesn't have to be primary and secondary. It
doesn't have to be focused on that. It can be
someone on the polar opposite. The important thing is that
you're providing that support through those likes and those shares.
The algorithms do not look in our favorite period. And

(02:17):
I say it normally the guns behind me have already
given us strikes. So make sure you're liking, make sure
you're subscribing, make sure that you're sharing. These guys are
going to share where you can find them. Pay attention
to who they are, because there's a good possibility you
probably already know these guys if you're not already following them,

(02:37):
if you're not already subscribed and all that, and sharing
the good content, you're not only letting them down, but
also think of the people in your network who may
not be connected to a lot of these guys, and
you could share a video from dB and it could

(02:58):
be a complete eye opening experience. Sure network, it's it's
it's a it's a great concept. So my backgrounds and
law enforcement been doing the cop things since last century,
still in it, still going, who knows when I'll end.
These guys are not going to give their background. Hopefully
they're going to provide also where they can be found

(03:19):
American fighting, revolver, that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Usually.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
Also, the way I do this is I go in
order of the first person would be who's been on
the most and the last person who's been on the least.
That's a difficult call with this crew. I have no
idea who's been on the most, because yeah we have.
We might have a three maybe even a four way tie.
I don't know, but I'm going to go with dB
for my first So backgrounds, intro, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 5 (03:46):
It's not who's generated the most hate mail, because I
definitely think I own butt X baby, but X that's right.
Darryl Bulke, retired police officer from Southern calif Rnia. Co
founder of Hardwired Tactical Shooting with Wayne Dobbs, which that's

(04:07):
kind of turned that over to the kids. Co founder
and co owner of American Fighting Revolver dot Com with
Brian Eastritch, who's also here, still doing a lot of
security contracting. Been around the gun industry since nineteen eighty
six at about every level you can be in the
firearms industry. Currently, just found my happy place in an

(04:33):
industry that I've kind of grown tired of. I guess
over the years, I've got tired of arguing about you know,
glock skippling patterns and things like that. So you know,
we a teen years ago really got heavy into the Revolvers,
and it seems like everybody wants to follow us now
when we are trying to get away from them. And

(04:54):
that's what we do Friday and I'm American fighting Revolver
dot Com or consulting creat most media content, the whole thing,
and it's all Revolver.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
And speaking of that, also, the two of you did
some pretty noteworthy consulting, really cool stuff, not only stuff
that's been released, but some things that are on the
horizon that aren't public yet, and that's really exciting. I
believe I am carrying one of those that you see
that the thirty two in my pocket as we speak,

(05:26):
in one of your guys's holsters. Good stuff, good stuff.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
And then we have the why.

Speaker 5 (05:35):
Yeah, now the why hammer.

Speaker 6 (05:37):
Let's see man.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
Brian Eastridge of a retired cop I did twenty one
years at Oklahoma City PD. Actually I didn't retire, I
just divorced it and they pay me alimony the rest
of my life. It's pretty awesome, uh kidding, that's but.

Speaker 5 (05:58):
You know.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
I'm worked on kind of the tertiarya of the gun
industry for a long time with some different groups and
different people, and the firearms instructor a long time get
a hitch in the army. Before that probably heard me
say the bio one hundred times on this show. But
now I do security stuff with Darryl. We just did

(06:22):
one the other day that didn't break me like the
last one, but we did a short one. It was
only thirty hours. But I've always been a revolver guy
PPC guy, revolver, gun Smith, et cetera. And I met

(06:43):
this guy named Darryl Bulky about six years ago and
he's like, oh, you know how to work on revolvers.
I'm like, yeah, So I have had a constant stream
of revolvers ever since then, and recently I started getting
back reconnected with single Action and that's I've been working
with forty five long Cult for like the last month,

(07:06):
and uh, I've had four fifty four Casol, four eighty Ruger,
a whole bunch of other stuff and uh, you know,
primarily Ruger new model, old models, and then Smith and
Wesson's like that's kind of my jam my happy spot.
But uh, getting back into working on the rugers, and

(07:27):
I thought it was pretty timely that you were like, hey,
we're doing one on a forty five long cult and
you know, I think my videos might have been some
of the catalysts for that. I don't know the video
of shooting up the worst hammer, but uh but yeah,
so that's that's kind of it in the nutshell. And
and fortunately I'm also buddies with Jeff Tank Hoover, who

(07:50):
is a walking encyclopedia of load data, so that's been
pretty cool as well. But American Fighting Revolver dot com
is our page, and that's where we do all the
happy fun stuff and there's no drama. We're all amish
behind the paywall now or if you want to like
cut out drama in the gun world, you just revolvers

(08:14):
just a.

Speaker 5 (08:15):
Month to get behind the paywall where no drama happened.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, and cool guns show up and change hands and
yeah cool.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
Next up if if he ever wanted to learn about
wad cutters, the next guy is the Wizard, the encyclopedia
of all things wadcutter. Not only that, but man, has
he been a wonderful influence with that kind of stuff.

Speaker 7 (08:41):
Mark Hi, Mark, Ricky, And yes, I love a lot cutters,
as you can see here. We'll talk about some of
these today for the Ryan laughing. So I've been a
return police officer for twenty eight years. I'm an officer
and then I retired in two thousand. We worked as

(09:01):
cop and Air Force cop in Nebraska and cop and Preskay, Arizona,
where I worked and retired chief ranch master for our agency.
I worked for Arizona Post, which I still do as
I've trained and trainer. I've had my own company since
nineteen ninety two. I worked for a guy prior to
that named Chuck Taylor. Learned a lot about guns, a
lot of good stuff about it. Say, I started my

(09:23):
own company ninety two and ninety seven. I started working
for a national training organization and I did instructure development
of schools around the country training police offer from handguns
through sniper rifles.

Speaker 8 (09:35):
I broke my.

Speaker 7 (09:36):
Teeth on revolvers. I was trying to think when I
shot my first one. I think that is approaching fifty
nine years ago. I hate to say.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
That, and you're only forty five, which is a bad.

Speaker 4 (09:45):
Exactly I wish anyway, I've had revolvers.

Speaker 8 (09:49):
My whole life was we went out to autos.

Speaker 7 (09:51):
I had to carry those, but once I retired, I
carried auto callably.

Speaker 8 (09:55):
In the last twenty five years, maybe two weeks.

Speaker 7 (09:58):
Otherwise, I've been carrying revolvers with me and I love
them ammunition wise, trying to do a book, still working
on it. I'm now at one hundred and seventy five
different Wadcutter loads and that and this block on the
forty five Cold is an interesting one because I've just
recently gotten into forty five Cold myself. As far as

(10:19):
for personal defense, I don't care it, but I mean
as far as helping figure out what works and what
doesn't for personal defense in the Wadcutter world, forty five
Cold itself has had a long history of being great cartridge,
but with a Wadcutter bullet you can do a lot
with it and get a lot of input. So I'm
just here to kind of get some information to it.
I've been reloading since seventy two and forty five Cold

(10:44):
probably for the last three years, not doing a lot
on it, but it's my thing. I own like three
forty five Colt rovolvers, all single actions and one really cool.

Speaker 3 (10:57):
Car being coal.

Speaker 8 (10:59):
Oh, I love this thing. This is awesome.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
So that's mean awesome.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
Now, the next guy you may not know, but he
had he was a big part of the role in
special He might have been the guy that put it
together originally, and maybe it was a joke.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
I don't know. John may have.

Speaker 3 (11:21):
Been a joke. John Knight by former Army, did sixteen
years in the Infantry fourteen and Special Forces, left and
joined the private sector. Worked in product development at Magpole
for thirteen years, and then in March Magpole parted ways
with me and went over to ACE so different part

(11:45):
fringe of the industry and tech where we do virtual
reality shooting app for the meta headsets. So on the side,
I love revolvers. Bought my first one at Ed's gunshop
in bass and two thousand and three or four. I

(12:05):
have it here to show you. Guys. It looks like
you got drug behind a truck and never fell out
of love with him. I've always enjoyed them, like now
that I'm not having to wear them anymore. We were
joking about this earlier. You have don't have no idea
what the current night vision is. All AR fifteen's other
than a couple you know, night surefires and new and

(12:29):
some of the Hodge guns all kind of look the
same to me. So when I get off work and
still want to do gun stuff, that it usually has
a cylinder in it. That's that's what I love, and
I love the forty five Colt. It was my first
one and never gave it up. I think it's the
most versatile cartridge on the planet. Awesome, Awesome.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
So Scott you might have seen on TV at some point.
He's our resident TV star. Yeah, who also happens to
work on revolvers.

Speaker 9 (13:02):
Yes, Gott van Dorston, owner of Vandorston Custom Firearms. You
can find me at Vdcfirearms dot Cotton and Vandorsing Custom
on Facebook and VDC Firearms on YouTube. I'm here much
like Matt, I don't have a lot of experience with
a forty five cult. I've always been more of a

(13:22):
forty four Magnum guy. I still am was my first gun,
my first love. I will always love the forty four Magnum.
But with all of the stuff coming, there's a lot
of people out talking about the forty five Colts right
now and I've found it very interesting. So it sparked
an interest, and it just so happened that this past
week a customer brought in two guns on consignment, and

(13:45):
one is a Marlin eighteen ninety four and forty five colt.
The other is a Ruger Blackhawk in forty five colt
and the Marlin even has the octagon barrel.

Speaker 5 (13:57):
So now it's like, what's that?

Speaker 1 (14:05):
So really, what kind of started this whole this episode
specifically was I have a side Facebook chat with all
the Revolver guys and they're talking about their Revolver stuff
regularly and super interesting to read.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
And they're talking about forty five cult.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
And I thought, what.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
You guys are talking about right now?

Speaker 1 (14:28):
This could be an episode easily, and a couple guys
just immediately are like, yep, I'm in sweet, let's do it.
And I said one specific phrase, which there was there
were two different, very different responses to referring to it
as forty five long cult. And let's go right into that.
Why because I know Daryl has experience as a police

(14:51):
officer carrying that as a duty weapon. He even mentioned
it as a swat gun. And then we have the
other side saying, not just forty cult, that's.

Speaker 5 (15:01):
An unfair hot forty five colt right there, that's just cool.
That's done more more swat stuff than and tactical things.
And ninety nine percent of the people who call us Hamish.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
And also the hammer spurs missing, which is really cool.

Speaker 5 (15:18):
Brian just did that.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
That's uncair.

Speaker 5 (15:20):
I'm actually carrying it now quite a bit. So I
had Brian remove the hammer and make the trigger round
instead of flatt and.

Speaker 6 (15:27):
Square and smooth. No serrations, right, you will.

Speaker 5 (15:35):
Start on forty five CULT versus long colt. Yes, please thing. Yeah,
technically it's forty five CULT. Yeah. And when forty five
CULT came out, that's I mean, that's its technical designation,
long colt. The way we used it it from an
agency that actually issued these things. When you are issuing

(15:58):
forty five ACP and forty five CULT, it just the
long colt seems to designate better. It's the revolver cartridge,
and it's more of the modern revolver cartridge. It is
not quite the level of sin that's saying, you know,
clip versus magazine, which are two distinctly different things. We

(16:21):
use the long cult mainly because it distinguished it from
when we're ordering ammunition logistically, what gun are you talking about? Also, weirdly,
you know, and this has been a problem. When you
say colt forty five, what's that?

Speaker 3 (16:41):
Nineteen eleven?

Speaker 5 (16:44):
When do you say forty five cult. What's that Cowboy game? Right,
So they're pretty close. But when you say forty five
long Colt, there's pretty much no ambiguity there. You're talking
about the revolver, and so from a practical terms, it
just makes it easier to Hey, I'm talking about the

(17:07):
one that goes into cylinders and has a rim on
it versus the one that goes into magazines or clips
that has is you know, is a semi auto cartridge.
There you go. So Mark's so that for us, it
was a very practical thing. At my agency, nobody called
them forty five colts, and our chief was a huge

(17:29):
cult single action and cult collector. If anybody knew the difference,
it was hence, but they were always referred to in
the agency as forty five as the long cults, because
it distinguished them from the forty five ACP stuff, and
particularly for people who weren't gun people, you knew what
ammunition to give people or what gun they're actually talking about.

(17:54):
And that's sort of the practical usage of the terminology.

Speaker 8 (18:01):
Get a little history.

Speaker 7 (18:03):
Mark, absolutely, the forty five colt also synonymous with the
US Army and double action, same cartridge, but the US
Army when they adopted the Colt eighteen seventy three also
adopted a Smith and Western revolver, which was a break
action which used the forty five Scofield which later became

(18:26):
the forty five Government round.

Speaker 8 (18:28):
It was shorter because.

Speaker 7 (18:29):
The cylinder was too short for the forty five Colt,
and so the US military actually used up until the
time they went to double act revolvers, used the forty
five Government which was the Schofield round and shorter length,
and I think that's where some of that came into
play over the years, that the Schofield because it was
the Government round. That's why it was called a long

(18:51):
colt which would not fit into Schofield. So that's kind
of a little basic history of it back in the
eighteen hundreds is where it came from.

Speaker 3 (18:59):
Both are breaks, like most thanks. It's also that's the
Lesson's fault. Yeah, the Model three would not take the
longer cartridge, so they had a short one and a
long one. Then somebody inserted it in there and now
we're still arguing about it today.

Speaker 5 (19:17):
Yep, one hundred years later. It was used to determine
disappoint the revolver stuff and the auto stuff, you know,
so it just kind of helps to quickly define what
one you're talking about.

Speaker 3 (19:32):
That is actually the first good explanation I've heard, because
I could totally see when you had nineteen eleven's your
Colt forty five and your forty five Colt. Then you
asked whoever was in charge of ordering Ammo on the
phone with a check or a piece of paper, It
could be pretty dangerous.

Speaker 7 (19:51):
Yeah, then we can throw out the forty five Auto Room,
which is which is a great cartridge, very fishing cartridge,
and it's a forty five ACP with a rim on
it to be used in revolvers so you don't have
to use moon clips.

Speaker 8 (20:03):
The length of them, you can see, are quite different,
like that you go.

Speaker 3 (20:10):
Forty five Auto Rim and forty five Cowboy Special very similar.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
Are two cool unsung hero cartridges.

Speaker 8 (20:17):
Oh I love the Auto Rim. That's one of my
favorites in forty four lasts.

Speaker 1 (20:23):
So nowadays, with with all this modern everything, obviously hearing
you guys talk, forty five Cold is still very viable.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
We have all Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:35):
You want the you want the cool elevator pitch?

Speaker 2 (20:38):
I do? I do?

Speaker 1 (20:40):
Oh, And before you do, I said this in last
in last night's podcast for you listening or watching, thanks,
I use use caution. There's a good possibility you might
wind up buying something after this episode, and it's going
to be a twenty or twenty five, yeah, twenty five
to five or something similar.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:04):
So nine and a half inch barrel, forty four magnum
Ruger super red howk awesome gun? Great gun? You had
a trigger job done on it Griffin Hill if you're wondering,
guy makes these mounts and nothing but great. Way to
put a red dot on a Ruger? All right, So
this gun will push a three hundred and twenty five

(21:27):
grain fast projectile at all a fifteen hundred feet per second, right, safely, right.
You can do the same thing with a forty five
colt push a three hundred and twenty five grain projectile
and the right gun at fourteen to fifteen hundred feet
per second using almost identical low data ones the forty

(21:51):
four ones of forty five. You want to know the
difference the word magnum half the barrel length.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
Oh geez, yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:58):
Yeah, there you go. You can push pretty much the
same projo at the same pressure and the same velocity
at roughly half the barrel length. There you go and
sell your.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
Forty four and buy forty five, and I'm finding with
load data, with h one to ten load data, you
can actually push the same weight projectile for about ten
to fifteen percent less pressure in a forty five Colt.

Speaker 3 (22:25):
Barrel barrel to barrel length two hundred and twenty ish
grain projo somewhere in there. You know, they're all over
the place, depending on who's casting, what mold you're using,
you're roughly ten I call it four thousand psi when
you get into the big boys, your five shot guns.

(22:47):
When you're pushing four to fifty four cosole pressures in
a forty five Colt versus a forty four, probably about
a ten thousand psi difference for the same performance, talking
equal barrel length.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
So now here's the hitch.

Speaker 3 (23:01):
If you go out and buy a cult single action
army that is good to about fourteen thousand psi and
in a non blackpowder specific first gen and you do
manage to cram one of these in there, you know,
I hope you've got a guy that makes good mittens

(23:21):
and you're not too attached to your gun because it's
going to explode. And that's really the thing you have
to pay attention to with forty five colt is what
pressure will your gun take? Because Sammy is just going
to look you in the face and say it's fourteen
thousand psi. This load right here is fifty eight thousand psi,

(23:43):
which is a good deal more than fourteen. I went
to public school, but that's a risky run. So and
when we look at the different guns in there, they
all there's a lot of different pressures that these guns
can safely take. And if you don't know which one
and it is, you're going to have a bad day.

(24:04):
You're going to damage a gun, destroy a gun, potentially
hurt yourself pretty bad. So that's where the rubber meets
the road. That's my that's my little footnote. Don't blow
your hand off.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
And that's exactly the answer I'm looking for. When I
messaged you, was it last night or the night before?
Talking about twenty five to five? What are we looking
at here? And I think I went velocity versus pressure,
But yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
Said you could do eighty percent of the pressure you
could do in a forty four mag And he thought
it was twenty eight to thirty thousand psi, and that
was his carry gun. Most of the time it was
a four inch twenty five dosh five or six twenty five.
I like to keep them around twenty four. You got
to know which part of the guns the weak part.

(24:47):
Some guns it's the cylinder, some it's the frame, and
I think on the twenty fives it's probably the frame.
And you know you can you can shoot thirty thousand
psi out of it, but you're probably going to get
a stretch frame, and you know, sooner or later your
gun's not going to be right anymore. So I keep
them twenty four twenty five thousand in the smiths and.

Speaker 6 (25:07):
The smith's the forty five.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
If you look at where the cylinder stop notch is
is directly over the like the most high pressure part
of the cartridge, and everybody goes, well, they make that
same gun in forty four mag And I'm like, yeah,
look at the cartridge, not the bullet diameter, the cartridge diameter,
and you're shaving like twelve thousands out of the cylinder wall,

(25:35):
and that cylinder stop notch gets real shallow right over
the boomiest part of the cartridge. So I'm with you.
John like the Smiths kind I kind of stick to
like the factory. Like the Winchester Silver Tip is right
there at like twenty thousand. It's it's a little hotter

(25:57):
than their colt load, but but it's still not it's
not the tier. It well into tier two.

Speaker 7 (26:06):
So I'm not so sure that heat treats the cylinders
the same meter because most people don't hot load forty
five colts versus the forty four mag, so the heat
treatment's probably different. I didn't think they would ever do that,
but in looking at more and more of this, they
do do different heat treating for the type of cylinders
they have.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
They've kind of standardized that, but there's a lot of
open ended questions about forty five colt and because that
was in the era before they did one heat treat
for all the different cylinder specs. So, like Daryl and
I discovered with forty five colt out of that gun, that.

Speaker 6 (26:45):
Gun's got four fifty eight cylinder throats.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
So we're like trying to source a forty four mag
cylinder to bore out. Shoots fine with jacketed bullets, I mean,
but shooting anything else, it's a little, you know, just
kind of like hucking the hucking the bullet into the
forcing cone.

Speaker 3 (27:07):
Well, we got we gotta, we got a live one
in the comments, Get a red Hawk or Super black
Hawk and shoot four fifty four pressure loads. Ol, okay,
red Hawk, cool, do it? Blackhawk, do not do it.
Because if it's a six shot cylinder, you're gonna have
O'Brien was talking about, it will not take sixty thousand

(27:30):
PSI and it will blow your gun up in a
standard forty five cold Super black Hawk four, no problem,
it's made for it. It's either got a larger cylinder.
Maybe on some runs I wish we had Jason Klausner.

Speaker 2 (27:43):
In Here's I had shot right. I had one. It
was a five shot, and what I found was the
best accuracy I squeezed out of that gun was with
a light loaded four fifty four casole. So like at
twelve thirteen hundred, yeah, like it would shoot, you know,

(28:04):
like PPC level groups. But when I pushed that high
pressure forty plus thousand stuff, it would shed some bullet jackets.
That was an interesting one, and then it would it
just didn't group as well. So I ended up selling
it because I was like, well, I'm not shooting four
fifty four, and I can do the same the accuracy

(28:27):
loads standard Blackhawk. This little guy right here, we'll take
that load data, so and I get an extra round,
you know.

Speaker 3 (28:38):
Yeah, a six shot Super Blackhawk and forty five colt
if that even exists.

Speaker 6 (28:44):
Will the same as a Blackhawk will not take pressure.

Speaker 4 (28:49):
So there is no Super black Hawk in forty five
cold as only as like.

Speaker 5 (28:53):
Yeah, the secret squirrel of the Ruber line is the
Super Red Hawk Alaska. It's one of my favor and
outdoor guns. I got one bow end it up for me.
If I'm going to be carrying something, I want small
and four fifty four of that. So the otherwise there's
a reason there's a company called Freedom Arms. That's the dude.
When you want to shoot, you know, Jesus loads, that's

(29:16):
that's what you shoot them.

Speaker 3 (29:18):
So I got one of those rascals here. This one is.
It's a Field Grade that I bought at Der's Gunshop
in San Antonio for I think nine hundred dollars and
I sent it back and Bob Baker did a forty
five cult cylinder for it. You can shoot forty five
colts out of the four fifty four cylinder I don't
think they like the jump. I think they like to

(29:38):
be right up against the throat, So I just buy
new cylinders.

Speaker 5 (29:42):
Yeah yeah. Freedom Arms actually says do not shoot forty
five colts and four cylinders because it leads them up
inside and then you can't get the four fifty four's
in there. Freedom Arms doesn't cut cylinders like Smith and
Wesson guys.

Speaker 10 (29:58):
No, So what you're saying, you get some shields to
make some special loads for us, like you did with
three fifty seven forty four.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
So yep, that's I brought like three little show intels
I got. That's the Winchester Cowboy Action two fifty that's
running like seven hundred and fifty feet per second, so
it's like a twelve thousand PSI load, right, and it's
just a lead flat nose that would be like your
traditional forty five colt cartridge. And then I got the

(30:35):
Winchester Silver Tip two twenty five and Darryl can attest
to how effective that round is, and it it's a
little snappier, a little higher pressure than the the old
Cowboy load. However, it's Smith and wesson'nsafe, so it's it's
under twenty thousand and then I got this boomer and

(30:57):
this is my handload, and it is vicious evil and
right up there on the top of what you want
to load in a Blackhawk standard Blackhawk, and I've been
running it in this standard. This is an eighties, eighties
gun and it is full of fleas. I've had to
do quite a bit of work to it to get

(31:18):
it to shoot and anyway, which, yeah, but the Brothers.

Speaker 5 (31:27):
The cool thing with.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
The Blackhawks is there's really not a lot to them.
I mean there's not a lot of complexity, and they're
so overbuilt for what they are. You can really press
if you're a handloader, you can really press forty five
colt up into that forty four magnum range for a

(31:51):
lot less I say, a lot less pressure and a
little lower pressure curve. I'm working with a three twenty
five grain bullet and yes, mark some to ship to you.
It's a coated three twenty five wide flat nose and
I was clocking those today at eleven hundred and that's
not even the top end of what it can do.

(32:14):
Now you want to dive into the ruger rabbit hole
a little bit. Okay, this gun when I got it
had point four to five oho chambers throws, so ninety
dollars and a call to Manson Ramers later it's got
point four to five to three. That was step one.

(32:38):
Then all of a sudden the gun starts shooting six
inches high. So a quick paul to firm and Garza.
This gun left the factory with a three point fifty
seven front site and base. Okay, on the blued guns,
they don't pin the front site because the front site
base is blued as well, so they just silver solder

(32:59):
it on. So now a call to my buddy State
Line shootest who has a soldering rig and a bluing tank.
You know, I'm going to be four hundred dollars into
a four hundred dollars gun before this gun is like
ready to go to work. The newer Rugers post twenty ten,

(33:21):
they're a lot more consistent there. The chamber dimensions are
a lot more consistent. They put a forcing cone instead
of a forcing ledge in them, so you know, but
you get into the vintage guns and it can be
a real rats nest. And then I've got I've got
some guns from the same area, some Rugers from the

(33:43):
same era that my forty four mags have point four
to three to zero chamber throats, and so there's really
no consistency there up until you got to about twenty ten.
And then my forty four mag ended up having a
forty five Colt front site. So the new Lipsy's flat

(34:06):
top forty ones are fantastic. They're still playing with the
front sight heights on them from the factory. There's still
some debate. So I just my standard answers. I get
a ruger with a pinned front site, go shoot it,
dial up the rear, and then call Furman Garza and
have a front sight made so they can be a

(34:29):
It can be a tricky endeavor to get into. And
then if you go into Colt single action armies, the newer,
newer generation ones, i've seen those with four fifty four throats,
four to fifty seven throats, I've seen smith and yeah
for four to fifty.

Speaker 6 (34:47):
Eighths from a custom shop, no less, right, So.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Carl Binding and I joke, like, hey, who do we
got to call it Colt to say nobody shoots four
fifty eights and a revolver anymore, or like, uh So
that's the one place that I think, like if you're
not a handloader and you're not like kind of dialed
in with them, that forty four mag kind of has
a little edge over it because they tend to be

(35:16):
a little more consistent on chamber throats, forcing cones, board dimensions,
things like that.

Speaker 5 (35:21):
So agree, then the secret squirrel thing of why all
of us are kind of a little weird for forty
one mag because the forty one mags are all forty one. Yeah,
they're all you know, there's no deviations. It wasn't around
the eighteen hundreds it went all I mean for if
you know, if you're like me and you don't canload

(35:43):
all these things. I've always had an affinity for forty
one mag because they always end up being good. But yeah,
and I'm the guy who's not a handloader, and again
I got I mean, I carried this as a duty
gun for all of the early years of my police career,
and we simply shot. The chief had a deal with

(36:04):
a buddy of his who did our reloads for training.
They would come in a bag of thirty rounds, which
was our qual course, and they were in clear bags,
but you really couldn't see in them because they were
so much loob and gunk and black stuff in there,
and those seemed to shoot find in our you know,
four point fifty six cylindered twenty five fives and then

(36:27):
we were either shooting a federal hollow point or the
big one was Winchester silvertip. Silvertip sucks and autos. Silvertip
is wicked and revolvers, you know the I was talking
to Freddie Blush today. I got another cool forty five
cult thing where we measured split times was measured and

(36:49):
how fast between the round hit hit a sternam and
how fast they hit the ground. That was what we
did split times with these things with I don't I
couldn't find a case in my agency where if they
hit a guy with a forty five cold it wasn't
a one and done. I mean it was one and
done right now.

Speaker 8 (37:06):
Uh you know you guys shoot too, though, Darryl.

Speaker 5 (37:11):
Yeah, but you know still, well that was I qualified.
With the ones they hit. There was plenty they didn't either.
But if guys could deliver a hit with these things,
they they tended to just dump crooks right now. And
then the other favorite one is a bunch of our
guys went to swat school, you know, one of the
old nt A schools with you know, Ron McCarthy and

(37:33):
all the only guys and all that, and you know,
they'd all look at them, go, what do you guys carry?
You as speedloaders look like tomato paste cans. So you know,
they always got a pretty good look. But they, you know,
the guns simply performed real well. And I never felt
undergun carrying a forty five colt on the street in

(37:56):
times that were incredibly incredibly violent, you know, I mean
my Hebrew hammer was a comforting thing in you know
that world at that time of being a rookie, newbie
cop in a scary time. And yeah, but like I said,
we we did not lack for confidence of these things

(38:18):
dumping bad guys. And if you look at some of
the agencies in SoCal for example, to carry forty five colts,
it was Ontario Long Beach and National City, And if
you do any research into any of those three agencies,
they were were f around and find out before there
was an f around and find out that was just

(38:41):
the way it was. That all three had reputations they
were the three places that carried forty five colts SAPs
and did not put up with any bs from felons,
and you know, these things just worked for really just
dumping felons hard. Rian.

Speaker 7 (39:00):
You mentioned about shooting rubers and you can go up
to forty four mag pressures. That applies to the Blackhawks.
It does not apply to the new model Vcarros. There
are more of a medium frame and they won't handle
the same pressures that the original Vicaro would, which was
the same size as a Blackhawk.

Speaker 3 (39:18):
So just you can do what twenty twenty three K
in the midframe, and I think thirty is the safe
limit for the large frame right without going to a
blown out cylinder.

Speaker 6 (39:31):
Yeah, I had.

Speaker 2 (39:33):
So the original intent with this gun was to send
it to Ronnie Wells and have him build me like
a Lineba or a forty ruger. And we started talking
and he goes, have you played with forty five colt much?
And I said, now, I've had four fifty four cassoles
And he goes, go buy some h one to ten
powders or powder, some bullets that start with a three,

(39:58):
you know, three hundred plus and he go and tell
me that ain't all you want to hold on to?
And I went okay, And he goes I just saved you,
like three k kid like move.

Speaker 3 (40:08):
On, especially with a plow handle grip frames.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, and and I actually plow handles like I don't
get hammer bit by them. Busly hammers bite me in
recoil for some reason.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
I shoot them better, but they hurt more.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
Yeah, it's the transition right here from the frame when
that sucker pounds the web of your hand, which is
one of the other reasons I tell people I'm a
big fan of stainless rugers because a little bit of
an emery board and I can take the transitions. I
can take those forty five corners and round them and

(40:48):
not have to refinish the gun, take the back of
the trigger guard down a little bit the insides, take
the d hornum without having to take them to a
bluing tank, and I get a lot of mileage out
of them that way. But the way the way the
plow handle hammer hits me, it doesn't bite me. The

(41:09):
Bisly hammers, for some reason, just pound the web in
my hand. It could be my technique, I don't know,
but the uh but I definitely shoot the plow handles
better than the Bisley's. But I prefer the bislies and
the heavier recoiling cartridges, and I have a love for
that new I got the new flat top forty one

(41:32):
from Lipsy's. That thing is glorious because forty one, even
at like mock Jesus, is not terrible to shoot, No,
and then when you put it in that busley, it's
it's it's man, it's tame, and uh, that's probably my
favorite single action right now. But but yeah, I did.

(41:54):
I did up a load with this three twenty five
slammer and like twenty grains at h one ten and
it was it was spitting them out at eleven hundred
and it was like I can hand that to anybody
at the gun range and they'd be like.

Speaker 6 (42:06):
That's plenty.

Speaker 2 (42:07):
I don't I don't want any more of that, yeah,
And I'm oh, go ahead, yeah, I'm trying to get
So with forty four mag I worked with Steve Shields.
He called me and he goes, hey, I'm going to
load for forty four Marlin, and I was like, well, hey,
the twenty five dudes still left shooting that cartridge are

(42:27):
gonna love.

Speaker 5 (42:28):
It and easy, Hey.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
So you're twenty four other than dB. But the point
being I was like, okay, well you're gonna sell that, AMMO,
because nobody's loading that in factory AMMO right now. I said,
but what bullets and he goes, I got three hundred
grand xtps. I said, oh, stuff some of those into
forty four mag cases and send them my way. And

(42:52):
we worked a load that is like ten to fifty
out of a four inch mountain gun and it's not
super unplay, wasn't to shoot and it hits like an
absolute freight train. And then out of a lever gun.
I did a one inch group at one hundred yards
with a smith lever gun. I was like, I think
we're on onto something here. So I'm trying to build

(43:14):
a forty five colt load that's very similar with a
little wider meat plat on it and a cast lead,
and I am this gun is making me lose hair
because I'm like, God, every time I track down something,
now I got to change something else. So but it's
forty five colt. That's still fun.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
So yeah, I think I think that's where we tea
guys point earlier run into reverse engineer and our cartridge
that's you know, one hundred, and we're getting one hundred
and million years old. I've had really good luck with
a three twenty five gas check cast performance a lot
of fast stuff. I've got some old ones from when
Kelly Brost owned the company that he gave me. I've

(43:56):
got some of the new ones from after Mike Rensel
bought it from him. Have two distinctly different loads, and
you wouldn't know unless I told you. So, if you
ever see my AMMO sitting around, ask me before you
shoot somewhere, you're gonna have a bad day. The only
way he can tells you use two different crimp. Diuyes

(44:16):
fifty eight thousand PSI gets uh, sorry to thirty thousand
PSI gets uh, I think it's a Lee factory crimp.
And then the sixty fifty eight to sixty k gets
a super aggressive call it crump because I wanted to
jump the crimp a lot because it's still in their length.

(44:37):
So yeah, if you ever, you know, pay close attention
to the to the crimps on my amo, if you
ever shoot.

Speaker 5 (44:43):
Any of it, you know what My solution with my
art for into Kansas, I don't shoot anything nothing.

Speaker 3 (44:51):
Yeah, fair, fair enough.

Speaker 5 (44:54):
Anytime John is like, hey, you want to shoot this no,
I'll be okay. No.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
I roped Darrell in about three days ago. I had
just loaded these freshly loaded them with some h one
to ten and I cracked one off while he was
holding the Krono and he goes ten eighty and I'm like, perfect,
we're there, and I said, now you got to shoot it,
and I got a video it. Man, I don't know.
I'm like, it ain't that bad? Come on and he

(45:20):
torch went off. Hecaes, yeah, it was plenty thanks, moving
on in st hell of a good video.

Speaker 3 (45:26):
Thirty k loads eleven twenty five ish out of a
five and a half inch barrel. Yeah, and it's not
too bad. I only obviously only shoot the full pressure
out of something that'll take it. So usually you know,
five shotguns with a barrel band and a one off

(45:50):
custom frame that doesn't bust my knuckles. But I mean
it's still nothing like a four fifty four or the
Freedom gun. You can shoot out of the Freedom.

Speaker 8 (45:57):
Gun all day, will wait you shooting with that.

Speaker 3 (46:00):
Ere twenty five. I've dabbled in the three forties, but
I just did juice. What worth the squeeze? My walking
around loads two fifty five lee Elmer Keith Mold that's
twice as old as I am soft cast running nine
fifty to one thousand.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
So that's my that's my question for you guys. So
we're talking about an old cartridge, and you guys were
also talking about load data, and one of the cool
concepts that we've been hammering on some of these episodes is, well,
clearly it's we're going to we're going to choose the
right options for the mission, whatever that mission may be. Well,

(46:43):
it sounds like forty five long cold, forty five cold
can be all kinds of missions depending on whatever that
load is. So on that high end, what are the
what are the what are the various beasts you're able
to take down that are tory or whatever or otherwise?

Speaker 3 (47:03):
Russ Silfred, when this whole five shot thing first started
to I think it was a Seville that John Limebaugh
converted with a plow handle and shot clean through a
k buffalo and killed it dead.

Speaker 5 (47:16):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
Cool.

Speaker 3 (47:17):
Meanwhile, my one hundred and sixty grain at eight seventy
five Cowboy action loads would make your block nineteen.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
Seem like a handcannon that I can do it out
of the same gun.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
Yeah, yeah, Well, That's one of the cool things I
really appreciate about the thirty two caliber revolvers is that
we can go down to that little tiny thirty two
long all the way to three twenty seven fed mag
and they are so different and they can do different things,
but it's the same gun, and it's just awesome, you.

Speaker 5 (47:48):
Know, real quick, Mark, can you reflect on what we
found with my you know, like seven hundredsh you know, yeah,
absolutely so.

Speaker 7 (48:01):
Two years ago, Darryl and I did some ballistic testing
with the Clear Ballistic Jail up in Wyoming. We're using
I'm going to chest out some Buffalo Boar loads which
are here. Yeah, that's the Buffalo Boar Personal Protection Load
Personal Anti personal rop. Sorry, it's a two hundred and
twenty five grain listed at ten fifty.

Speaker 8 (48:22):
There you go, and it.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
Looks like this is that the cast hollow point.

Speaker 8 (48:26):
For this is a solid hardcast squad cutter.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
Gotcha. They do make it.

Speaker 7 (48:32):
They do make a lot of good loads. I'm really
a big fan of Buffalo Boar loads. Anyway, we shout
it out of Daryl's Freedom Martins with a two and
a half inch barrel into Gael Booth through four layers
of denim and into bear jail, and in bear Jael
the forty five colt Buffalo boar made it twenty five

(48:54):
and three inches at a velocity of one thousand and
two feet percent second, and then twenty two inches through
four layers of denim at one thousand and five feet
per second.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
Right, so right at one thousand feet per second, yeah.

Speaker 7 (49:10):
Right there, and again that's and there's right there at
one thousand and fifty. Yeah, that goes out of a
longer barrel, and it was a two and a half
or two inch.

Speaker 8 (49:18):
Barrel, two and a half.

Speaker 4 (49:20):
That's awesome, and the recoil was not bad on them
puting in the plow handle with it. So we also
shot some of the stuff that Darrow had worked up
with Steve Shields over high Desert and he had a
two hundred and fifty grain full metal jack on a
differ bullet out here, real quick.

Speaker 5 (49:38):
Screen, flat point.

Speaker 7 (49:40):
Yeah, and it's a yeah, it's just a jacket jacket
plated plat point.

Speaker 8 (49:44):
It's a plated bullet.

Speaker 7 (49:46):
There it is, and it's it was going at a
whopping six hundred and fifty eight feet per second and
through furlier denim it went thirty two inches of gel
geez when the wide cut went only twenty two and
twenty three. And the reason being is is because the
wadcutter cuts that nice clean, whole flat knee plat plows,

(50:08):
it plows and stops.

Speaker 8 (50:09):
I mean exactly like a brace.

Speaker 7 (50:10):
That's exactly where the full metal jacket just went through there.
So we're trying to get to convince people lot me,
you don't need velocity to get penetration. You just need
a good bullet shape whatever you need to do, which
is why one reason why I like wodcutter so much,
it's because I don't need to have a lot of
velocity to make it work. In the forty five cold
for personal defense, there's a variety of different loads. Put
me back up, map yep, and these are all different loads.

(50:36):
This is a one to sixty five to make sure
you got it, one sixty five two twenty five, which
stain bullet that they use for both their buffalo boar
uses for their forty five auto rim and forty five colds.
There's a two to fifty hollow base of which I've
got some. I've loaded them backwards. Haven't that a chance
to shoot him yet? And then it typed three at

(50:56):
two fifty and then this one's a unique one, and
this is a point. If you look at it, it
looks very much like the old Hyder shock. There is
one where they jacket plated but with a boattail bullet.
This is from Northwest Custom Projectiles, a two sixty five
grain and they call it a low velocity self defense

(51:17):
load man stopper based kind of like the old four
fifty five man stopper load that the British hues for
the Webley back in eighteen seventy nine. And I haven't
shot gel with it yet, I will be doing so shortly.
The issue I had, I would up a bunch to
do it, but they wouldn't chamber in my rug revolver
because that the chambers are too tight, and so Brian's

(51:39):
going to bore those out for me so I can
actually finish doing the testing on that stuff.

Speaker 8 (51:44):
And I have some problem with it.

Speaker 7 (51:45):
But the penetration of those Buffalo warlows. I gave those
to you. Another one was a two hundred and thirty
grain type two semi or wad cut a round want
better and it went thirty one point five inches at
seven sixty eight through bear jail, so you can get

(52:07):
penetration without having to have a lot of.

Speaker 4 (52:09):
Stuff in abuse if you want to use it for defense.
Prior to the class, Daryl and I were talking and
I looked up some things. There's two current I would
call concealable defense revolvers that are available out there for
the forty five cold without having new any modifications.

Speaker 7 (52:26):
One of them is a Taurus for fifty. I don't
know if it's currently made, but you can find them.
It's a five shot forty five Colt Taurus and the
newer generation Tauruses, so they're pretty good guns.

Speaker 5 (52:38):
And then I.

Speaker 7 (52:39):
Will have hard time recommending it myself. But Charter Arms
make a forty five Colt Bulldog. I'm just not a
big Charter Arms fan because I got burned early on
in my life on those, and I'm not a fan
of it.

Speaker 8 (52:50):
But the bigger Charter Arms.

Speaker 7 (52:52):
Seem to work better, Like the forty four Bulldog seems
to have lasted a lot longer than the undercover. You
won't hear me say a good thing about the their
covers for thirty eighths.

Speaker 3 (53:01):
Ever, it's got a forty four special Bulldog and it's
it's been a pretty alright gun. And you know, if
I if my windows smashed and it's not my truck
anymore when I'm at the gas station one day, I'm
not gonna cry myself to sleep over it. For the one.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
That's we'll just buy another one.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
There was no crowd, no crowd ownership. I'll be more
mad about the window.

Speaker 5 (53:24):
They were. They were real popular or when I charted,
particularly as ankle guns, and you know a lot of
guys would just take the grips off and duct tape them. Yeah,
I'm small, and you know they were. They were carried
a lot shot a little I had. I had one
that was really good. My gunsmith still carries it. Uh
TJ's custom gun work work one up and it was

(53:46):
sort of the uh you know, hence to Charter arms.
That was like the best one they've ever made. So
you know, they were capable of it. But you know,
for me, these are generally most of the forty five cold.
What I like about them is I can run them
in some of the more shorter barrel stuff for you know,

(54:10):
and I'm not much of a hunter. I'm getting there,
But most of the time when I was carrying all
this stuff, it's woods and field defense loads, not hunting loads.
It's not like I'm going out trying to but I
want something convenient. I was just out, you know, fell
in feeders and doing cameras at the ranch the other day,

(54:31):
you know, carrying a forty five colt, you know, with
you know, the Winchester kind of current version of the
silver Tip. I'm working with Steve Shields right now on
a defensive load that should end up running about nine
hundred dish, you know, and shouldn't be punishing, and I'll

(54:52):
get you everything you need for lower forty eight carry
for two and four legged things. And you know, they're
just consistently good performers. They were always now kind of
looking more towards getting I really want to blow a
block of gelatin at four layers of dentim and I

(55:15):
want to blow the complete sixteen inch block, and then
that's where I want. After that the parachute can deploy.
And that's kind of why we've been going hard with
the XT people. It's that they're known to be accurate,
and they're late expanders, I've found. And this is that
age and wisdom thing, you know, we used to get

(55:38):
all excited about how fast we could get this step
to expand and go to whatever caliber. But what ended
up happening in a lot of real world shootings that
weren't gel or phone books or whatever anybody was using
at the time is once we were actually shooting them
into things that we found that penetration was much more

(56:01):
important than expansion. So we've been pretty hot on doing
the XTP stuff and loading it to where again, you know,
for a defensive load, we want to load that stuff
to blow a block through four layers a dnim and
then somewhere a little after that it'll slow down and stop,

(56:24):
you know. And to me, that's that's what we're looking for.
The reality for all the people who are going to
type your fed on the comments, which great, the reality
is I don't know how many autopsies you've been to,
but I can tell you right now, these forensic guys

(56:45):
can't tell the difference. If you don't tell them what
bullet was used, they don't really know, but they can't
tell you it made a hole here and went through
this that was important. And then that's why they're in
the morgue right now. And these things end up being
a lot like you know, I tell people human beings
are you know, deer that walk upright, and is really

(57:12):
the reality of it. We're about deer sized things. And
you know, you want to be able to heart lung
this stuff, and you may have to get through a sternum,
a femur, an arm, you know, some sort of cover,
a windshield or whatever to get through to that heart lung.
It needs to go in the heart lung or it
needs to go in the melon, but it might have

(57:32):
to get through some hard stuff first. And the one
thing you can't argue with on these big bore cartridges
is they are consistently good for getting through hard things
and putting holes and soft things. And that's a pretty
good reality for this, and these guns do it very

(57:53):
consistently in a package that's very shootable. You know, you
can get into now you want to go go hunt
big game. That's the other beauty of this. You know,
you want to go on an al Kona moose, hunt,
kate buffalo whatever. These cartridges can get loaded into you

(58:15):
know calibers that you know they have five shot cylinders
and names like line Bob after them, and you can
load this stuff to blow through the biggest stuff on
the planet. You know, I'm a fishing guy. You know
my fishing gun. For a lot of years with my
super Red Hawk Alaskan, it was easy to carry the

(58:35):
one barren counter I have. I was carrying it and
was perfectly confident in that gun with the round I
was hearing, which is a factory four fifty four load
that was controllable in that gun. And that's the beauty
of these. They offer a lot of you can load
stuff that's soft to shoot. You you know, it's funny

(58:57):
we make fun of the cowboy loads. Cowboy loads are
downrights fun to shoot, the enjoyable to go out and
go to the range and have fun and shoot and perform.
But the reality is is most of that stuff, if
you go from a round nose to some sort of
a flat bullet, and even those velocities, they weren't just

(59:21):
fine for blowing through things, you know, and shooting through
things is good well.

Speaker 7 (59:29):
With the original load was a great defensive cart I mean,
we have so much history back behind it that shows
how well it worked. I mean, that was the quintisential
cartridge defensive cartridge for almost you know, seventy years.

Speaker 8 (59:43):
As far as the one you wanted to stop people with.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
I bet you there's a whole lot of headstones there
in the Tombstone Cemetery that that didn't really notice that
they were getting shot with what we would call a
cowboy action load.

Speaker 5 (01:00:00):
Right. You know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
That wasn't fun for some people.

Speaker 9 (01:00:09):
You know, I've seen you know CSI and they can
always tell what caliber that's right the person was shot by.
I mean, what's what's this you're talking about?

Speaker 5 (01:00:17):
You're doing this? You know when you talk to all
the you know, if you go to all these cops.
The last thing we ever wanted to hear on the
street was people talking about CSI. It's like, I don't
know about TV C s I, but I know what
my CSI who were actually really good. I mean, we
had top flight people and it's like they can't do that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
You know that ain't true, but you know we're not
can hear from it for weeks?

Speaker 5 (01:00:41):
Yeah, but you know it was funny. It's like anything else,
there's so much mythology out there, perpetuated and it always
seems to go back perpetuated by Hollywood and somehow becomes scientific.
And then you talk to guys who hunt, you know,
two or four laggers you know, for real, not like

(01:01:04):
pretend to souruses on the internet, but actually you know
or haven't watched videos of it, they've actually done it,
and they'll tell you. There's one thing we found is,
you know, these big bore cartridges consistently work real well
under most conditions outside of the biggest problem has been

(01:01:27):
bullets that are round and push versus bullets that are
square and cut. And that's really what it cuts comes
down to. And these things coming out of these guns,
particularly stuff like forty five Cold, forty four Special, you know,
any of these they're at a velocity range where they
just push a big flat bullet through things, and you know,

(01:01:50):
it's hard to argue with. We know it works.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
Yeah, so I can't believe this has already been an hour.
It's to me that's in Sandy going to take a
one minute thirty eight second break for some ads to
roll refresh those drinks. If you're really fast and you
can and use the bathroom of that time, good luck.
But yeah, cameras are going to be cut just for

(01:02:14):
that short amount of time, as well as audio, so
we'll be right back. We're going to have to hear
my voice again. It's irritating now and now I just
need to find the right link, and there it is.
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Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
So it's kind of.

Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
Funny midway, I think through one of Brian's explanations of
ruger things, YouTube decided to kill our feed. We're still going,
We're still recording. Matter of fact, I saw a couple
of people comment on it on Facebook, so I just
threw an invite so they can pick up where we were.

(01:04:27):
They're they're with us now behind the scenes, but.

Speaker 3 (01:04:30):
The matrix is strong now geez.

Speaker 5 (01:04:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
So yeah, they detected their firearms being touched, so now
weapons free, touch all the firearms you want.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
OK, yeah, we're good to go.

Speaker 5 (01:04:44):
I was.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
I was unaware you were syblcasting on YouTube because I did.

Speaker 5 (01:04:49):
I did.

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
I ran a YouTube live just with the A f
R channel just to see it, and I picked up
a gun like this and they killed the beat that past.
Oh wow, Yeah, it took a while for us.

Speaker 11 (01:05:03):
I think we went through a good thirty forty minutes.
Is it only the live ones they get cuts? Because
I watched young videos on YouTube all the time. Oh man,
So talking about the original load, that's that's super interesting.
So I got I got two walking a round loads.
One the two to twenty five XTP.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
Is an absolute killer of a bullet, fantastic handgun bullet.
The four seventy five is phenomenal downloaded. You for Ady
Ruger for seventy five linebat to take your pick. They're
close enough that it doesn't matter. The original load they
went away from. It was right at I want to

(01:05:47):
say ten to fifty. It was a two hundred and
fifty five grain cast cast of course projectile over forty
grains of black powder and pushed it around one thousand
feet per second depending on bunch variables, right, But that's
what the textbook says. My wood load is a two
hundred and fifty five grain Keith running right at one

(01:06:09):
thousand feet per second, soft caste do about anything you
need it too. Apparently there was too much recoil, and
you know they didn't have obviously they didn't have a
marksmanship and training and understanding of physics that we have now.
But I mean that was a pretty formidable cartridge. Then
when they knocked it down seven fifty or eight hundred

(01:06:30):
didn't didn't have the same effect velocity definitely, you know,
all things created equal. With the faster ones probably a
good one. I was pushing that XTP at almost fifteen
hundred feet per second, and it doesn't take much to
do it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
It's pretty pleasant shooting.

Speaker 3 (01:06:47):
I think most of us wind up around the same
spot if it starts with a four or a five.
Once we get the get it out of our system
that we need to push it at fifteen hundred feet
per second. Nine eighty ten eighty is where we all
land with our everyday loads. Whether it's a four seventy five,

(01:07:08):
five hundred lineball, you name it, just just the lower
above a thousand with a heavy enough bullet you really
don't need anything else.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
And I think it was John Limebaugh that said, like
once you you know, with a heavy bullet, once, once
you pass like eleven twelve hundred, you're buying trajectory, not penetration. Yeah,
for sure. I mean I mean looking the whole, which
makes sense. But my first dive into single actions was

(01:07:44):
just super Blackhawk forty four and I used to cast
my own two fifty grain Keith bullet. It just said
the lead alloy that I used was it would come
out to two fifty and I'd loaded over ten ten
grains of like WSF shotgun powder. It'd get me like

(01:08:04):
ten fifty And I killed all kinds of stuff with this, deer, pigs, turkey.
I shot my best handgun shot ever on a game
animal was sixty two yards with this on a turkey,
and with a with like a medium cast now, I

(01:08:26):
hit it right at the neck and like it's Kappa
was dictated, so but super accurate. And the other thing
I find is like, especially with cast loads, if you
keep them right like between nine hundred and twelve hundred,
they tend to shoot way better than when you start

(01:08:48):
when you start pushing them really into that Dick Cassle,
John Lineball realm man, like your cast DOLOI gets critical,
your gasch gets like everything's got to be right to
get him to shoot.

Speaker 3 (01:09:02):
Well, yeah you get, you get one shot if you
don't gas check those bullets, and then yeah, it's gonna
get worse every time. But it doesn't happen anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
I just added Steve shields of high desert, anticipating being
but I just threw him in.

Speaker 5 (01:09:20):
So the idea I'm on here.

Speaker 12 (01:09:22):
Okay, I was just going, you played a post on
Facebook and you just got wiped off the live and
I'm going I can't find it. Just point in the
direction and the next.

Speaker 4 (01:09:30):
Thing I know, I get this.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
And this isn't the first time I've a surprised added
him too.

Speaker 5 (01:09:36):
That's because we're all saying nice things about you.

Speaker 12 (01:09:39):
It's true.

Speaker 5 (01:09:40):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):
The other thing I was gonna ask is like, I
don't know what your viewer base, but do we need
to explain the difference in a busy frame and a
plow handle frame.

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
That would be cool, probably, yeah, because everyone's running nods
and block nineteen's and.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
Yeah, stippling patterns. Yes, So here's your traditional plow handle frame.
And I don't know why they call them a plow
handle because I've never run a plow. I've never actually
been behind a plow. But the plow handle frames interface
with the back of the frame a little lower, and

(01:10:19):
they've got this like humped transition here. The hammers tend
to have like a higher spur. They have a little
different trigger set up, but that's like your traditional single
action army style of grip frame. I know when you
get into the bisley. The bisley has no transition there.

(01:10:41):
It's just a smooth transition interface to the frame. The
hammers are actually lower. The spur is actually lower, but
the hammers the hammer body comes up like straight and
that's kind of the two configurations. And a lot of
the heavier recoiling calibers. Guys prefer the busly frame because

(01:11:02):
with no transition, it rolls into the hand.

Speaker 6 (01:11:05):
Really nicely and takes a lot of the recoil from.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
The palm of your hand. It leaves it in the
gun and the gun just rolls right the plow handle.
It tends to jam this section here right into the
web of your hand and then into your knuckle. So
and this my rugor I actually dehorned these stainless guns
right in this area with emery cloth to take that

(01:11:31):
take some of the sting out of that transition, and
I'll actually de burn the holes on the back of
the frame so that it doesn't have any sharp edges
on it. The only issue I have is the bisly
hammers tend to bite me right in the web of
the hand, and the plow handle hammers tend to not
like I hit about here instead of there, So they're

(01:11:53):
six to.

Speaker 6 (01:11:53):
One way, half a dozen the other.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
But definitely, if I'm shooting like a really heavy cartridge,
the busly is the way so.

Speaker 1 (01:12:00):
And then also both of those have the heaviest double
action press no.

Speaker 3 (01:12:06):
So you know why the busily bites you and the
plow handle doesn't. Why is that you got man hands
and you're pinky as a recoil it can't rotate.

Speaker 6 (01:12:17):
Really, Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 3 (01:12:19):
And if you look your your super hammer is lower
if you look at your blued gun, but it's got
a much higher hammer than even though.

Speaker 8 (01:12:26):
A super's got anybody's got a three year super hammer and.

Speaker 9 (01:12:33):
My hand, why don't you put the plow handle hammer
on the bisley gun?

Speaker 5 (01:12:43):
A lot of it is the ability to cock it,
you know, to be able to actually cock it is
why we do it. I technique, you know, because I
don't shoot Cowboy Action or any of these. I don't
know what I'm doing. I just know what I like,
So I kind to just roll the gun and cock
them with my web thumb. Uh. So I've always like,

(01:13:06):
like either the busleis or the Super black Hawk hammers,
it's easier for me to get under and just cock them,
uh pretty consistently. Uh. You know again, if some of
this is geared towards either defensively, you know, the hunting
guys are are cocking the gun and shooting you know
one yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:22):
And the other thing is by thought if you was
looking at him like what, well, I see John, what
John's got in his hand? And I'm like, maybe that's
the answer to all my plays.

Speaker 3 (01:13:32):
So yeah, Freedom, Freedom pretty much does that. It's a yeah,
it's a busy more or less, but they keep the
high hammer on them. Well.

Speaker 8 (01:13:40):
The Busley was not designed as a fancy of grip.
It was design as a target.

Speaker 7 (01:13:44):
Shooting Disney ranges right, right, and that was that was
the reason for that for the longer grip was you
got your finger straight or on the trigger.

Speaker 2 (01:13:53):
The other The other thing I noticed with Bisley's though
they didn't chamber a whole lot of the old Colt busily.
They chambered those in the heavier calibers. It seemed like
more than they did.

Speaker 3 (01:14:05):
I believe thirty eight forty was number one, forty four
to forty was number two, and then a few and
forty five Colt maybe a couple others.

Speaker 5 (01:14:14):
Right, I agree with that.

Speaker 2 (01:14:15):
Yeah, thirty eight forty is deceptive because people think thirty
eight bullet with forty grains of black powder, and it's
a forty caliber bullet with thirty eight.

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):
It was the original ten milimeters written. It's written forty
smith and lesson.

Speaker 13 (01:14:32):
Yeah, right, And for the era that was a hot
cartridge man and a great carus you get, you get
a blackhawk and gas it up.

Speaker 3 (01:14:43):
John Libaugh I think did five shot thirty eight forties? Yeah,
you could get that thing, burn it out of there.
I don't know how the projos stayed together, how the
brass hold up, though it probably not too well. I mean,
it's so easy to crush the case mouths on those things.
That's probably a good segue if you're going to reload
just by Starline brass, please do everyone a favor and

(01:15:07):
just take the guesswork out of it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:09):
Well, actually the best way to go is to buy
Steve Shields loaded fort and then you have star Line
brass that's once fired in your gun, in your gun.

Speaker 5 (01:15:24):
Yeah, there you go. You know, one of the things
to add for the people who are watching this, so
this is all nerd stuff that they're not familiar with.
You know, when we're talking about these guns, particularly the
single actions, they tend to be kind of looser gripped
than what we would do with a semi you know,

(01:15:44):
shooting with Brian a lot. You know, Brian can crush
a semi automatic pistol and run them without the gun moving.
And then you watch them shoot one of these single
actions and they're very loose script. You know, guys, we're
watching video going man, you can't control the recoil on it,
no letting the gun take the recoil out because the
bullets aren't driving a slide or anything like that, so

(01:16:07):
you can kind of lose grip. These The benefit to
that for defensive use or field use or you know,
when you're trying to not get become a food source
for the local grizzly population. You may not have a
good grip on the gun. That's the benefit to all
of these is they run, you know, without having a

(01:16:30):
perfect grip on the gun. And you know, these cartridges,
we'll tend to grip them depending on the cartridge for
how much recoil we want taken out of it before
it gets in to our hands. So they're gripped a
lot differently. That's kind of why this conversation is happening
about which grip we like on the single actions, you know,

(01:16:52):
the doubles. I just like the situs kind of filled
on it, you know, and I'm running the double ax
and trigger. Most of my stuff is double action. Uh yeah,
just because I would cut, you know, for all these
guys talking about their singles you like, I like, you know,
Red Hawks and the big in frame double action Smith.

(01:17:13):
These other guns are sort of just a fun addiction.
But the guns are not gripped like you would grip
a semi so that stretch the factor in of what
you end up liking with these cartridges.

Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
Oh, side plug, I got to make a side plug here,
so I guess lou guys Nell and I now are
going to do a class at the pat Rogers Memorial
revolving around up called big Boar. It starts with four
and we're going to have some double action and single actions,
different grip styles, different grip frames, different loadings to kind

(01:17:48):
of like how to maximize your your your fun with
a big bore revolver and do a fair do a
little bit of shooting it intermingled.

Speaker 5 (01:17:58):
Yeah, Brian, you're doing table action with Kleb and single
action on those of low Yeah, you get to do
it with two different people, but you're doing all the
big boards.

Speaker 2 (01:18:08):
But yeah, because people see me shoot thirty eight wadcutters
like all the time, and I go to pat Rogers
event every year and it's like I shoot three hundred
wadcutters and it's fun. And then I go home and
load some thunderous forty four mag and shoot steel and
all that. So I was like, hey, for the tenth anniversary,

(01:18:28):
we need to shake it up. So I'm going to
do a little more big board class. And side note,
there's five tickets to pat Rogers left, there are seven
tickets to Revolver Fest on the East Coast. Left. That's it,
and we're capped.

Speaker 9 (01:18:45):
So I want to make a quick observation listening do
you guys talk about the recoil of these single actions
and stuff like that. So my personal experience, it's like,
you know, I'm big, you know, Smith and Weston and
double action revolvers. In my experience, everything always hurt more

(01:19:06):
in the single action guns. You know, whether it be
forty four or three fifty sevens, it's like it is
everything I shot hurt more. I'm kind of wondering now
after listening to you guys if I need to readjust
the way I grip a revolver for the single action right,

(01:19:29):
because I'm trying to grip it like I do my
Smith and Wesson six twenty nine. And that's what I've
always hated about the single actions is I can't just
can't get the same grip, and.

Speaker 3 (01:19:41):
I have an exhaustly different grip, yeah, with a double
in a single action.

Speaker 9 (01:19:45):
So I just wanted to highlight that so that people
are watching this they can go back like, oh wait,
that might be something to think about that.

Speaker 2 (01:19:54):
John linebaw and my dad knew Alan Harten and some
of those guys, and he was like, dude, these guns hurt,
and Alan Harton was the guy who went, well, you're
gripping them too hard, and he made the comment while
we were all like in the office on a speakerphone call.
He's like, hey, man, if you try to fight a

(01:20:15):
four to seventy five lineball, it will win. The recoil
will win.

Speaker 6 (01:20:20):
Don't fight it, and.

Speaker 2 (01:20:22):
The other the other deal. And I just kind of
became aware of this because I've shot him now. The
bear hug grips that Bobby Tyler is doing right now
that they'll deacon decent design. If you really dive into
why they're the way they are, it's to make the
recoil impulse, the recoil impulse more similar to a single action.

Speaker 6 (01:20:46):
It's to spread the recoil out, so you.

Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
Don't like with the mountain gun. I don't grip the
mountain gun hard either. I just kind of let the
recoil go. And those bigger grips and the way that
they're tapered, they're designed to make that recoil impulse real
similar to a single action. Yeah, guys saw me shooting
that off arrest and they're like, oh my god, he
can't control recoil and he's not even holding the gun tight,

(01:21:10):
and I'm like, you want to shoot three hundred grains
at a thousand, come on out, I'll seat you all.

Speaker 5 (01:21:14):
Of at it. So by the same token, So when
I had this forty five colt out yesterday shooting Steve's
low velocity flat point or lower velocity. With these bear
hug grips, you don't have to grip the gun hard.
It was an enjoyable day of just shooting. I mean,

(01:21:34):
just going out shooting the gun. My hands don't hurt,
you know, all of those things. Yet you know, Dobs
and I are out there just you know, at fifty
yards smacking fifty yard steel. You know he was up
and you know, for we were doing non omious things.
First we were shooting you know, wayneboreth frame point. We

(01:21:57):
were shooting Coha's on glock, and you know that got
boring in about you know, eight minutes of doing that,
and then we got the forty five cold out and
starts really having an enjoyable time. And you know, again
just kind of shooting this gun. I don't need to
death grip it with these grips those uh, you know again,
shooting around I know will blow through thirty two inches

(01:22:20):
of gell with no perceptible really much recoil or anything.
You know, it was quite again, it was just enjoyable.
Again for the defensive load with the xdps.

Speaker 4 (01:22:32):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (01:22:33):
You know, Steve and I have been talking about going
you know, they'll be significantly hotter to get that to
do what we want with it. But again, you know,
you can go out and enjoy these things with a
lot of the lower velocity ammunition. That really doesn't take
a ton out of these guns unless you're trying to
offensively hunt animals, which is a little bit different. Prophecy

(01:22:59):
Let's throw up saw a defensive use.

Speaker 4 (01:23:02):
I think last revolvers and defensive use if you look
it back at the history of.

Speaker 8 (01:23:06):
It, usually one to two shots was again what they
were looking at doing.

Speaker 4 (01:23:10):
But you guys guys like Phil Reid who had forty
five Colt revolver that was his gun, and he competed
equally with people at Cooper and Chapman and Colin Omen
and any guys who were shooting the Simiado's, and he
had to hold on to a tighter build to get
the shots off and get them off in a time
of the manner. So I think it depends on what

(01:23:31):
yourmission is. If you're trying to do a defensive use
and you have to shoot more than one round quickly,
and you're going to hold on.

Speaker 8 (01:23:37):
To them tighter.

Speaker 4 (01:23:38):
And I think that's a necessary thing I want to
bring up about recoill and grips. The Super Blackhawk is
a unique one because of the grip angle on it
is kind of like a busley, but the trigger guard
is on the seven and a half inch at least
was cut square. And I don't know about you guys,
but I owned several of those over the years, and

(01:23:58):
they beat the crap out my hand. So on that
particular gun, I would personally put the pack my brubblers
on it and hold on to them because I actually
it didn't at least hurt my hand when I shot
the gun. Uh it wore my hand from the rubber,
but it didn't beat the crap out of my throat
the uh my knuckle on my little finger. So just

(01:24:20):
have to keep in mind with it.

Speaker 5 (01:24:21):
They've gone away from those dragoon trigger guards on those
you know with around.

Speaker 8 (01:24:26):
It now, but I seven half fansh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:24:29):
I've got an older one with that dragoon, and I used,
you know, the big hogs on it to get that
square backtrap squared back in the trigger out of the equation,
because that was just dumb. It looked, it looked cool,
but it didn't work really cool.

Speaker 4 (01:24:48):
So the other thing I want to bring up is
the comp one great thing about the forty five cold
It is one of those cartridges that can be used
equally with a handgun and a car being very well,
it's very conduce it to be in a car being
and using it more effectively even than it was before
out of a handgun.

Speaker 8 (01:25:06):
But that that combination of forty five pot both those
guns is an excellent way to go than or others.

Speaker 5 (01:25:15):
And they're spectacularly good in that sixteen inch train with
a short lever gun. Yeah, you know they that that
they're just made for a sixteen inch clever gun. Is
you know, just the land of happy forty five cold place,
which is nice because if you're carrying at twenty five
to five or you know blackhawk, you can fload for

(01:25:39):
one thing, and carry a long gun in a short gun.

Speaker 8 (01:25:43):
With the same caliber and get better performance out of
the car right usually usually about two to three hundred
feet per second, increasing veloscity and of a sixteen inch barrel.

Speaker 2 (01:25:53):
And that's a wonderful transition, it is. Yeah, yeah, because
in chatt is it Mark?

Speaker 3 (01:26:01):
Mark?

Speaker 2 (01:26:02):
Are you the one that brought up that I did?

Speaker 1 (01:26:03):
I think that's such a cool concept to have your revolvers,
Karen the same caliber as your car being.

Speaker 3 (01:26:10):
Yep, you know those modern ninety two's, even the rossis
the heritage whatever. Certainly the Winchesters, those things will absolutely
take peak pressure, you know, the most you can cram
into them.

Speaker 4 (01:26:25):
I'm not sure what the pressures this will take, but
it's got a lot of steel around that barrel.

Speaker 8 (01:26:29):
And I just athletely love these single shot carbing is.
They're just my favorite thing in the world to be
able to shoot. And you can shoot anything if you
can if you can chamber it, and forty five it
will shoot it.

Speaker 4 (01:26:45):
I'm a big fan of physical caliber carby Mike, caliber
three seven and the carbine that is my personal favorite.
Vote for handgun Honting and for the rock Carby. The
other guns are very cool too.

Speaker 1 (01:26:58):
So let's talk about that forty five in a car
being form All right, yeah, so are you looking? So
how many of you guys are shooting those and are
you using the exact same rounds in your revolvers as
your car being.

Speaker 8 (01:27:18):
I don't load mine out. I leave them the name.

Speaker 3 (01:27:21):
The only the only caveat the Marlin. So the henry
I've got it won't meet the long ones. It's probably
strong enough, but it won't for them. My Marlins will.
But I'm not as comfortable with the pressure on those.
I've been told it's it's less than a ninety two.
So I just listened to people that know more than me.

(01:27:42):
I haven't really pushed them too hard because I don't
want to break them. But they're all JM pre pre
Remington guns. Rumor has it that the trapper in the
new ruger of Marlins, which are I think they're phenomenal
gun it's gonna come in a threaded forty five colt

(01:28:03):
trapper configuration, which I cannot wait for. That that was
the plan under the last CEO. I don't know if
anything's changed. They they had a Knight of the Long
Knives at River, and honestly, I don't know who's still there,
and so that would be a good one. But the
ninety two's MOROCCU ninety two. You know the Winchester is

(01:28:24):
a phenomenal gun, and that thing will take all the
pressure any revolver will then. So yeah, I just same
fifty eight PSI about the Rosie. They're just as strong,
you know, from what I understand.

Speaker 2 (01:28:39):
I've got the ROSSI R ninety two in four fifty
four casole.

Speaker 5 (01:28:44):
Uh yeah, and that'll do that.

Speaker 3 (01:28:46):
It'll do anything in forty five.

Speaker 2 (01:28:48):
Colt right, Oh yeah, that gun's got to go back.
I got to call Caleb because I mounted a peepe
that one of the safety button replacement pete and when
I looked at it, I was like, man, the front
site looks a little off. So I put a top
dead center stage on it, and that thing's clocked about

(01:29:09):
six degrees off center and it wouldn't be a big deal.
I could reseat the barrel, but the extractor notch is
cut on the top. So and then I got I
ended up with one of the shootest Marlin forty five
sixteen inch forty five's. This gun will not get like

(01:29:29):
the three twenty five boomers. I'll probably do Ted McIntyre
loads of two seventy grain hard gas at like nine
hundred that'll that'll.

Speaker 3 (01:29:41):
Feed in these.

Speaker 6 (01:29:42):
It's like a almost a Keith bullet.

Speaker 4 (01:29:45):
So.

Speaker 6 (01:29:47):
We'll see how that, see how that shakes out.

Speaker 3 (01:29:51):
But the other ones, the you know, the TC guns,
the Contender well take whatever Blackhawk, well, the Encore will
take whatever five shotgun will right, So no which one
you got, but you can gass them up pretty good too.
And you know, then you don't really have a lot

(01:30:12):
of restrictions for cartridge length.

Speaker 2 (01:30:15):
You can.

Speaker 3 (01:30:15):
You can do a lot with.

Speaker 4 (01:30:17):
Those ross he's making now. They're single shot rifles. Also,
I went through the sevens, but I don't know they
make a forty five cold yet for it.

Speaker 5 (01:30:26):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:30:26):
I'ven't seen them.

Speaker 2 (01:30:27):
I've seen the guns, I'm not I'm not sure what
they're changing them.

Speaker 4 (01:30:30):
I love I love the three of the seventh one
it is is it really well made gun and very
lightly nice to carry. I just had a set of
iron sights put on mine so I can have both
the red knot and the iron sights for it. And
it's a nice gun. But I don't know if they
make it forty five cold. I don't know if Traditions
makes a forty five cold or not. There're the other

(01:30:51):
other singles not makers right now.

Speaker 8 (01:30:55):
I don't think Henry does. Henry makes a what if
we're mad? But I don't think Henry makes a saying
a shot in.

Speaker 3 (01:31:03):
Not that I know of, not yet. I did look
at those the other one that we uh, you know,
for any dentist or surgeons or hedge fund brokers that
are listed. You know where I'm going. Big Horn, Big
Horn Armory and Cody Wyoming, My goodness, they'll make you
the prettiest lever gun you ever saw for eight thousand

(01:31:24):
bucks and four seventy five line ball forty five four
man their debut. I got a line on one right
now on a didn't it for quite a good deal?
And I still I don't know if I can swing it.
It's either that or a Rolex, you know, like that's
what what we we're talking. So it's why not bowl?

(01:31:49):
I mean, I could, I could go buy a beaterter
car for what that gun goes for. But man, it's
pretty it's five hundred. But if you've never checked out
Big Horn Armory, uh nicest ones out there, you know,
you can buy eight Winchesters for all one cost.

Speaker 5 (01:32:06):
Yeah, they're short of the freedom arms of the lever.

Speaker 3 (01:32:09):
Guns, you know, Yeah, yeah, yeah, just over the on
the other side of the mountain. For me, I'll tell
you what. That's a freedom Arms. You know, I know
we've touched on him, but if you don't want to
deal with we're short on guys that build the big guns.
Now guns absolutely, Ronnie Wells, you know, we'll still do it.

(01:32:34):
A couple guys that are still in business don't want
to do them anymore. Lowland's retiring, his books are closed,
you know, John Gallagher passed away, David Clements retired. Jack
Huntington will absolutely do him. But how long he's going
to keep building guns? Who knows? He builds a mean gun,

(01:32:54):
quick turnaround, good prices, wonderful guy to deal with, but
kind of just the gitting is not good anymore if
you want to modify a rugger to a five shotgun
in forty five cold.

Speaker 9 (01:33:07):
So I'm actually considering. I've been talking to Bowen about
his site because I've been using him a lot, and
Bowen's a super nice guy, yes, true, gentlemen. I mean
just anytime I've emailed him, he's like he wants to
chat and he's just super nice guy. So I've actually

(01:33:30):
I'm considering seeing if I can do anything of Hey,
can you, you know, train me how to do the
work that you are if you're not going to do
it anymore, And can I come and pick some of
that up from you?

Speaker 3 (01:33:43):
Last time I talked to him, you know, he I
don't believe they make the sites in the house, but
he said, you know, Gunsmith's never retired. They're just for
selling parts, just like John Powers and a lot of
the rest of the guys and the same thing. You know,
we were talking weeks ago when we were all together
in New Mexico, Like, I wonder if I could just

(01:34:03):
buy the rights to the sites and keep making them,
because you know, I have that on my list of stuff,
one of the great equalizers. Like most of these guns
have terrible sights.

Speaker 5 (01:34:13):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:34:14):
The Ruter sites are awful, awful sites. They've been making
them since nineteen fifty four at least, and you know,
good for the time, just like k frame sits. Sorry
Smith guys, I hate them to Bowen and then Ronnie
Wells and Furmngars that are making replacement blades for the

(01:34:34):
factory Ruder site, which is a nice, nice option to have,
as you know, even as Bowen's making them, he had
supply issues during COVID and they're just super hard to get.
They're honestly, they're cheap for what they are, but they're
one hundred and twenty bucks. And Man a good set

(01:34:55):
of sights. If you've got a revolver that won't shoot,
you know, check your cylinder throats Ferm and Garza. You'll
have to call him on the phone and he'll tell
you all about your gun. Be the most informative conversation
you ever had. And he'll check your cylinder throats and
make sure see if they're the right size.

Speaker 5 (01:35:10):
Good news.

Speaker 3 (01:35:11):
You can hog them out if they're undersize. If they're oversized,
you either got to start buying bigger bullets or start
buying new cylinders, which is a bundo.

Speaker 2 (01:35:21):
He'll be okay.

Speaker 3 (01:35:25):
And then sites Man Furm and Garza and the Ronnie
Wells rear blade for the rugers or Bowen sights are fantastic.
You know, you might not need a custom gun. You
might just need your cylinder throats opened up for fifty
five bucks and put a set of sights on it.

Speaker 5 (01:35:42):
And call it good.

Speaker 3 (01:35:43):
It might shoot like a house on fire. This where
to go. This is the first single action gun I
ever bought Ed's gunshot one hundred and fifty dollars. Throats
are four fifty two on the nose. The crown looks demolished.
The front site is in terrible shape. A cowboy used

(01:36:05):
it to drive nails back into the fence. It was
Gary Hughes mechanically phenomenal. Gun shoots like a house on fire.
So you know, your gun might not need twenty five
dollars worth of work. It might just need somebody to
look at it and maybe put a set of sights
on it. And cylinder throats are the great. Yeah, I

(01:36:29):
got the great Boogeyman in these things, right. I got
six guns in the shop that are getting bow in
DX fronts and their rough three rears.

Speaker 9 (01:36:39):
Yeah, and it's it's anytime I need to change something
on the barrel of a Smith and Wesson, like shorten
it or anything like that, I'm using the DX site
base because there's just no better way to have a
site where it's easily for the customer to change.

Speaker 3 (01:36:58):
Whatever he wants.

Speaker 2 (01:36:59):
It's the easy button man.

Speaker 3 (01:37:00):
Yeah, God, they're good sites. I saw in the chat
somebody put in DNL Sports makes really nice fixed sights. Indeed,
they do. I don't know if anybody else caught it.
CDNN about four years ago bought all of Smith and
Wesson's parts when they quit using them, and sold those
DNL sites in Smith and Wesson packaging for nine nine.

(01:37:22):
I bought twenty five of them and was so known. Yeah,
so when I dig them out, man, I could come
off of a few. But oh what a good site.

Speaker 9 (01:37:32):
When Smith and Wesson was still using those dn L
type rear sights being an armor, I'm able I was
especially back then. Yeah, you know, they they didn't question
their armors. It's like you call them up, they say, hey,
I need a bunch of these, they send them to you.
And those sites were one of the things that I

(01:37:53):
put a bunch of as well, that.

Speaker 3 (01:37:55):
With a DX front base. Yeah, because you know that
the height is what it is. Oh man, that's a
mean combo for for tough sites. And they're I love
the profile of them. Yeah, those d n L sites
are awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:38:09):
I'm an aeronside guy and I'm knowing Dave Locke for
god probably about thirty five forty years and he's a
good guy, makes good stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:38:20):
Cylinder and another one that's just a nice guy to
talk to you. Yeah, you know, I've sent him a
couple of questions, and.

Speaker 9 (01:38:29):
Like the first time I emailed him with a couple
of questions that he he trolled my web page and
he goes, oh, I see that you're a scout rifle guy,
and and you know, I hunted with my scout rifle
with Jeff Cooper up there in Wyoming near where you're at.

Speaker 2 (01:38:43):
And I'm like, great, thanks, awesome.

Speaker 5 (01:38:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:38:46):
I mean he had that big ranch outside of Chillette,
one of the guys that Maxwell bought it and turned
it into a kind of shooting facility. Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 4 (01:38:58):
He lives down here in k Valley now, Yeah, yeah,
he made good stuff. I'm an iron sight guy. I
like you. I'm I'm not a big fan of adjustable science.
I just want sites'll hit the point of ring. But
I like I like iron sites because I just I've
been rough on sites over the years. I removed several

(01:39:19):
adjustable sights off guns over the years.

Speaker 3 (01:39:22):
Done it a couple of ways.

Speaker 5 (01:39:23):
You know what.

Speaker 3 (01:39:25):
They're in with forty five colt.

Speaker 2 (01:39:26):
When we're going from you know that.

Speaker 3 (01:39:29):
Guy for that guy, there's a there's a distinct difference
in point of that but now with some of the
front blades, the Freedom arms, uh, some of the rugers.
You know, the options aren't there for the for the
dovetail plunger sites, but the d X bases or the
Freedom arms or any of the proprietary stuff that some
of the guys have come.

Speaker 2 (01:39:49):
But I usually stick to Freedom or d X blades
on depending on what base I really like set up.

Speaker 3 (01:39:57):
Yeah, anymore, I'll just buy a couple of blades. I'll
get a blade for every load and swap about when
I need them.

Speaker 6 (01:40:03):
Makes sense, Yeah, you got you got, you got options.

Speaker 3 (01:40:07):
You know when did when?

Speaker 5 (01:40:08):
Did?

Speaker 3 (01:40:08):
Just your challenge there? But most of mine shoots raight.
I'm pretty good shape.

Speaker 9 (01:40:13):
There is a pistol kind of hunting competition out here
near Devil's Tower.

Speaker 3 (01:40:20):
Yeah, morecroft.

Speaker 9 (01:40:22):
Yeah, Hi, I'm putting together a gun so I can
go do that next year. And you know, I'm planning
to use iron sights. It's like that's the way I
like my revolvers, you know, So I'm going to spend
to run iron sights and just see what I can do.

Speaker 3 (01:40:37):
Yeah, three sixty Dan Wesson with good sites. That's your
that's your hammer, that's your cheater gun. Right there.

Speaker 5 (01:40:45):
That's your gag.

Speaker 2 (01:40:48):
I've gotten uh.

Speaker 6 (01:40:52):
On the rugs. I like the adjustable sites.

Speaker 2 (01:40:55):
What I don't like is if I have to come
more than like ten clicks up on the rear, because
then the threads get real thin, and if you're shooting
some boomer amo, they get a little questionable. So what
I usually do is, if I've got a pinned front site,
I call Furmo Garza, tell him this is the height
I want, and this is and then you have to

(01:41:16):
justify it because he'll run you through like sixty five
questions about why you want to site that site or
a site that height. And my standard rudor thing is
screw them all the way down, back them out about
like five clicks and then do the math, and then
leave myself about five thousands forgiveness on the front site.

(01:41:38):
So I can. I can dial them in with a
pretty good variety of stuff, but I don't like having
more than like, what's that you also file them too,
you can.

Speaker 6 (01:41:48):
I don't like file in sights.

Speaker 2 (01:41:50):
I just assume, like, so you know.

Speaker 3 (01:41:53):
What, I've been been dabbling it three D printing. Some
of the sls prints are so strong now print blades.
File them measure them and then order one cost about
four dollars. Yeah, that's like the excess site trick they have.

Speaker 9 (01:42:10):
They have these little pins yeah in their front site
base and you trim them down and then you know
which site you need to order from them.

Speaker 7 (01:42:18):
I got.

Speaker 3 (01:42:19):
I can't take credit for it if you guys. Remember
I think Hilton Yam used to sell Delrin Yeah, I
think it was a Novak or a Hindi front dovetail
whatever he used. You could get a del Reyn site,
shoot it in and then order a custom site from him.
And I was like, man, that's really easy with these blades.
So did I just had We had a little three

(01:42:40):
D scanner. You can get them on Amazon there. They
weren't perfect for this scan the blade it pulls it up.
An idiot like me can do it. That can barely
log onto these things. And then yeah, man, I print
a AFF for three quarter inch front sight and Filestroke
does about five stol per and then Mike, Mike it

(01:43:03):
call Furman an order one. You know, are so.

Speaker 5 (01:43:08):
Doing Amish barn building right now. There's some guy out
there and head exploding right now talking about filing different
site heights stuff for loads what whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:43:19):
His gun shoots low and left and he doesn't know why.
I don't want to hear.

Speaker 2 (01:43:24):
He's looking for the place to file on the RMR, Like,
where do I do that?

Speaker 3 (01:43:29):
Trust? My guy, it's you. You're the thing making your
gun shoot low enough.

Speaker 1 (01:43:34):
As long as the front side is marked f you're okay.

Speaker 5 (01:43:38):
Source is the ar.

Speaker 9 (01:43:40):
Boy Novak nineteen eleven front sights. They have them in
such a huge, uh run of sizes. Yeah, that's that's
been my favorite thing, especially with the bull barrel model
tens and sixty fours and stuff like that. Just put it,

(01:44:01):
you know, a Novak dovetail on the front, and then
I can get whatever height site I want.

Speaker 3 (01:44:07):
It's fantasy on Putter of Dawson too, for about every gun.
I think the only revolver they do now is like
GP one GP one hundred blades, but for any semi auto,
Dawson makes I think two hundred different heights for most guns.

Speaker 2 (01:44:23):
Yeah, and it'll go to two thousand if you call
and they'll make you whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:44:29):
Yeah, two thousands of time.

Speaker 2 (01:44:32):
You know, I don't know if you can see it. Well,
I don't know if you can see it, but I
keep on my phone error in inches times site radius
in inches divided by distance in inches and there's your correction.

Speaker 3 (01:44:49):
Well that's another one. Even if you don't want to
do the math. Dawson and any number of manufacturers have
that on their website. You know, you don't even have
to buy a site from them. They got the calculator.
As long as you can shoot, you can punch it
in there and get your corrections.

Speaker 4 (01:45:03):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:45:04):
There there there's the rub.

Speaker 2 (01:45:06):
There's the rub the rubbed. And Darryl and I have
been real fortunate. We have a really good relationship with
uh Mike Canfield a Ransom and Ransom makes the MULTICW
steady rest, which is the absolute best piece of kit

(01:45:28):
for the A punch is way above the price point.
It's just an adjust The front's just adjustable and it's
got a nice pad and all that so and it
it'll fit on a tripod. So if you guys saw
the videos I was doing on like Instagram and Facebook,
I was shooting on a camera tripod with with a

(01:45:51):
steady rest, and that's where I was getting like out
of the new cult Ana Conda's I was getting like
inch groups at twenty five years yards and then with
the forty four Mountain gun. I was shooting at three
hundred GRANEXTP load that Steve does. I got an inch
and a quarter at twenty five yards on a five

(01:46:12):
shot group with a you know, full filled forty four
mag But it takes it kind of takes me out
of the equation. Yeah, there's some technique to shooting on arrest,
but man, it just it.

Speaker 6 (01:46:26):
It takes like the whole site correction thing.

Speaker 3 (01:46:29):
Yeah, I mean, I was how long have they been
making those?

Speaker 2 (01:46:35):
I don't know. I just became aware of them about
two years ago, and I want to say they're around
two hundred bucks.

Speaker 3 (01:46:41):
There was a guy homemaking something like that on the
Single Action forum and it was like a del Reyn
roller and you could unscrew it. Yeah, just the elevation
had a pat on it. Man, I've loved that thing. Also,
I've got a flat bag from Coal Tac that I
used for my boat guns on a tack table and
I mean, slap the revolver down on that thing, and yeah,

(01:47:02):
definitely takes me out of the equation. I'm pretty confident,
like I know, if I did the right thing, and
it's going to go where it's opposed to when I
can make my corrections. But those things, especially for the
big bores or if you're shooting with an optic and
you're trying to zero it, are are super nice.

Speaker 5 (01:47:19):
Yeah, That's why I say fit in an AMMO can
so we carry them around in the vehicle with an
we can go do AMMO load testing, accuracy tests and
you know anywhere, just go to local indoor range, flopping
down on the bench and go to work. And again
it just kind of takes your day out of the equation.

Speaker 3 (01:47:37):
Yeah, that a German prono Man beat to write this
down is the best thing to happen to shooting since
the metallic case cartridge.

Speaker 2 (01:47:50):
I so my my range kit. I've got a Wilderness
backpack because it's real flat on the bottom and the
ransom steady rest go in there. And then I've got
a selfie stick for the garment because of the thread.
So if I'm shooting somewhere that the little garment tripod

(01:48:10):
doesn't get it in the realm, I just use one
of those like teenager selfie sticks to adjust the height
and I can get a group done, all my load testing,
all that stuff done. The only pro tip I'll give
you on the That is kind of the Achilles heel
on the garment is if you have a target that's

(01:48:31):
inside of fifteen yards, it won't read very it'll it'll
skew it.

Speaker 8 (01:48:36):
So I run same with jel.

Speaker 2 (01:48:38):
You cannot that.

Speaker 8 (01:48:39):
You can't use the garment for blissy jail testing.

Speaker 3 (01:48:41):
Right, gotcha.

Speaker 2 (01:48:42):
So what I typically do is I run the target
to twenty five yards because it actually reads an average
at fifteen off the muzzle and fifteen yards.

Speaker 3 (01:48:52):
So yeah, just so the projo's behind something when it
does it's paying at fifteen exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:48:59):
And I started getting weird stuff, and I figured out
it was reading the particulate of the paper that I
was shooting through.

Speaker 3 (01:49:06):
Gotcha.

Speaker 2 (01:49:06):
So, but as long as you run the target beyond fifth,
like twenty yards, twenty five yards, it's.

Speaker 8 (01:49:12):
Right, it's fine.

Speaker 3 (01:49:14):
Well, you know, the magneto speed didn't apply to handguns
unless it was a TC or a freaking Remington you
know seven or six Model six and a thumbhole stock.
But that thing really really worked really well. I did
not have good luck with the lab Radar. I hated

(01:49:34):
it so much I gave it away the third time
after I had it repaired and but you know, even
on modern rifles, depending on the setup, it was very
hard to put a magneto speed on some of them.
Then you had to deal with suppressors and all that jazz.
And but but it was, it was really good. I
was super happy with it. And then I saw that
garment and like I can crono ten guns in five minutes.

Speaker 8 (01:49:58):
Oh, they were awesome.

Speaker 5 (01:50:00):
Another quick pro tip on those skinner sites makes a
little bag for the garments sort of a must have,
you know, just easy to carry. You know, we got
a lot of this stuff now with the problem being
sometimes retired law enforcement, particularly when you're not where you
retired from. It's like we actually have to go to
a public range like common folk toting. We got these

(01:50:26):
kind of little setups that are easy to move and
go do our thing and you know, without without a
lot of bus so.

Speaker 2 (01:50:34):
Or set up time.

Speaker 8 (01:50:36):
You shouldn't should have moved out of Arizona, Daryl.

Speaker 5 (01:50:40):
I'm trying to. I need somebody to buy my house
there I can build I can build my gun vault here.
So the I am. I am all down at Oklahoma.
This is the greatest place ever my body.

Speaker 3 (01:50:53):
So yeah, I'm about to make my move out of Colorado,
and it will be to somewhere I can come to the.

Speaker 2 (01:51:02):
It's the tornadoes. I'm going to Wyoming.

Speaker 5 (01:51:10):
I think I think they have ice natos there.

Speaker 3 (01:51:13):
Those are fine. If it's never above thirty three degrees again,
I could care less.

Speaker 5 (01:51:18):
You can kind of cool. Look, the weather is like
watching college football here. Uh, you got the biggest drama
queen weather. Guys out there screaming, and I've wonted all
sorts of new terminology of here exact just makes life
a little more exciting.

Speaker 9 (01:51:36):
So yep, as far as Wyoming, Sheridan, here is is
kind of the sweet spot because we're right up against
the big Horns the window walk.

Speaker 3 (01:51:47):
So it's been on my list for about a decade.
Like that's where I'm going to retire. Man, I love
it there.

Speaker 5 (01:51:53):
That's where I'm at now.

Speaker 3 (01:51:54):
So I was looking at a house in Ranchester and
another and I think it's I'm fourteen, going into the
big Horns. Take a left at Nchester Warrell. I was
looking at a looking at it. Does that sound familiar?
Looking at a place up there too?

Speaker 5 (01:52:11):
So there's Wyoming. You're just got revolvers.

Speaker 3 (01:52:16):
Oh, good, good news.

Speaker 9 (01:52:20):
I told my wife, Manchesters, you hit Dayton and then
you're up into the mountains.

Speaker 8 (01:52:26):
Yeah, we definite get down a rabbit hole now.

Speaker 2 (01:52:29):
I told my wife, I said, the only reason I
would ever move from the place I'm in now is
if I can do what Roy Huntington does and step
out on the back porch and do all my load testing.

Speaker 5 (01:52:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:52:40):
That's that's that's the retirement home.

Speaker 3 (01:52:45):
That's all. That's all I want. I want my reloading
room to be at least five hundred square feet and
I want white walls, white floor, white everything like the
one I have now at my old house. You know
that my ex wife is still living in for free.
Look it looks like an apple store. You can eat
off everything in there. I don't have a messy reloading room. Man,

(01:53:06):
it's sterile. And but I want to be able to
open the window and shoot at a target.

Speaker 5 (01:53:15):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:53:15):
That's so.

Speaker 3 (01:53:16):
That's that's the missing link right there. So yeah, whatever
I get next is going to be entirely centered around
the reloading room.

Speaker 12 (01:53:27):
I'm sitting here listening to this and shedding tears for
all of you.

Speaker 5 (01:53:36):
Am I the only one that has.

Speaker 8 (01:53:39):
My house and shoot? So it's not too bad. Yeah,
can uet my neighborhom you very close?

Speaker 2 (01:53:47):
Yeah, Steve can pee, drink coffee and shoot. That's right,
and not leave dreams. That's the dream.

Speaker 3 (01:53:54):
That's all I want.

Speaker 12 (01:53:54):
Get up off my deck and walk out to my
range and shoot all in the same motion. I'll even stopping.

Speaker 3 (01:54:02):
Well, that's all I want. I just want to be
able to shoot my pistols. I don't even If I
can zero my rifles, I'll be happy. But man, twenty
five yards, I can make it work. I'll live with it.
I'll shoot my rifle somewhere else.

Speaker 1 (01:54:16):
So if you guys are okay with this, I'm getting
texts saying, hey, can you come up here. What I'm
going to do is I'm going to do a quick
wrap up. But you guys keep on going.

Speaker 5 (01:54:30):
I'll tell you what I've got to go. My wife
is giving me the you've had to work boyfriends.

Speaker 2 (01:54:38):
She adopted my wife st Yeah, there's.

Speaker 5 (01:54:42):
Gun boyfriend time to both your wife's.

Speaker 1 (01:54:44):
I So with that mind, I'll say my favorite thing
for you, the listener of the viewer, make sure you
are supporting those sources that you have found to be beneficial.

Speaker 2 (01:54:55):
We have an awesome group of people here.

Speaker 1 (01:54:58):
Pay attention to who they are, what they represent, where
they can be found, so you can give them like
subscription shares, all that good stuff, because Darryl has to
take off.

Speaker 2 (01:55:08):
Darryl take it away.

Speaker 5 (01:55:11):
You know. For us, the big thing is going to
be we would love to see it revolve around up
or Revolver Fest or both. You know, Brian and I
are doing these big events now. We're bringing in the
best instructors money can buy, who are actually real revolver guys,
not like I've been shooting them for three years. And
you know, it's the training factor with these it's a

(01:55:34):
lost art. I'm sure this went over a lot of
people's heads that this used to be how we normally
talked about guns, you know, back in the eighties, we talked.

Speaker 2 (01:55:45):
About guns in the late nineteen hundreds.

Speaker 5 (01:55:48):
Yeah, the late nineteen hundreds. So you know, it's it's
a good thing. You know, even if this isn't your
cup of tea, come out, get some training, you know,
how to run these guns. I'm just going to leave
this here for the you know, the fud stuff. You know,
I just had to do a work gig in Newark,
New Jersey. You know, a revolver and wad cutters is

(01:56:11):
a thing. Actually, I was carrying Steve's flat point loads
and a revolver and had no issues. So you know,
sometimes this stuff may not be your go to whether
you're out doing a fishing trip you have to go
to some place that hates you. Whatever, there is some
practical things still learning how to run this stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:56:36):
Cool. So we had a good one in the comments.
Do we should talk about John Taffan in The Perfect
Packing Pistol? Because you usually ended with a question, right.

Speaker 2 (01:56:47):
Oh, so we don't even know. We don't have to stop.

Speaker 3 (01:56:50):
We can keep on going.

Speaker 1 (01:56:51):
I just wanted to get make sure that I got
everyone's plugs before they take off.

Speaker 2 (01:56:54):
Gotcha, Yeah, Darren's are we wrapping the episode or not necessarily?

Speaker 1 (01:57:00):
But yeah, if people need to take off, at least
give you an opportunity to do your your your clothes,
and then we can keep on going because I can
keep this rolling.

Speaker 6 (01:57:10):
I got about thirty minutes left in me here, about
a half hour.

Speaker 2 (01:57:14):
Yeah, okay, so Brian, I'm gonna take off.

Speaker 5 (01:57:17):
Your kids, have fun, see you tomorrow. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:57:26):
So yeah, we are still continuing, but I'm just getting yeah,
just getting some thoughts Johnson and what what what a source?
He was, Oh, let's let's hold on though. Yeah, let
me get these uh these these closing thoughts and then
jump into that.

Speaker 2 (01:57:43):
Yeah, Brian, final thoughts. Plugs. Oh I got thirty minutes.
You want me to do the plug now? And then yeah, okay,
yeah yeah. American Fighting Revolver dot com. That's the landing page.
We do e commerce. We're selling pocket holsters for normal
earth people.

Speaker 7 (01:58:02):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:58:02):
And then we do a wheel Gun Wednesday feature where
you know, we do some obscure stuff like you know,
a custom pre twenty four target and things. You know,
there's stuff that is kind of unobtainingum, but it's still
floating around. And then we do like Ruger stuff, right,

(01:58:22):
like guns that you can find now. We even cover
tauruses and stuff like that. But Ry, what's that Torii? Yeah?
T taarai. Uh, you know Ruger Cole Smith, a lot
of smiths. But we do a feature on it and
we talk about stuff like it's a fifteen minute version

(01:58:44):
of like the things we're talking about here, and we
talk you know, our favorite ammo for the gun, our
favorite that you know, different grips, different stocks, different stuff.
So that's what we do behind the paywall, and then
we have a we have a chat function behind the
paywall where the ultra nerdy of the nerds hang out.

(01:59:05):
And like I think these are fuzzy farrants, you know.
I mean, it's like it's a cool place. And that's
where we do our events, our training, like our paywalls
for training. If you want to sign up for class,
we post them there. Revolver Fest is posted there. The
demo day is posted there.

Speaker 5 (01:59:26):
The big one.

Speaker 2 (01:59:26):
Right now, we're eight people away from selling out revolver
Fest and five from selling out pat Rogers Memorial revolve
around up.

Speaker 6 (01:59:37):
Pat Rogers.

Speaker 2 (01:59:38):
Event is done through gun Site. They do the paywall there.
They handle all that. Revolver Fest on the East coast,
that's me, this guy. October eleventh, we're doing a demo day.
We got colt Ruger Smith and Wesson, Taurists and Diamondback
right now that are going to come out, bring guns out.

(02:00:00):
And we got this company called Lipsy's that carries all
those guns that are going to be there with all
the special editions. So if you just want to come out,
it's twenty five bucks. You can shoot all the guns
and the kicker of the whole deal. Lipsey's is going
to put a smattering of those guns in the pro
shop on site, so if you try it and you

(02:00:21):
like it, you can actually go purchase it. It's an
amazing concept where it's not like shot show Man, that's awesome.
Where do I get ith Q three, It'll be you
know whatever. We'll have them there and then followed by
two days of training. Training's five hundred and fifty bucks.
You get the demo day in two days. We're having
a student barbecue one night. It's going to be a

(02:00:44):
cool deal. Pat Rogers Memorial revolve around ups the tenth anniversary,
so we're doing some special classes out there. So if
you're a multi time attendee and you come back, you're
going to see a new movie. That's but yeah, at
all centers around American Fighting Revolver dot com so cool.

Speaker 7 (02:01:07):
Mark Well, I don't do much open enrollment stuff. My
only big open enrollment is up in at Devil's Tower.

Speaker 8 (02:01:15):
Scott right outside of Devil's Tower. I do a class
every June.

Speaker 7 (02:01:20):
I have done now one thirty one years up there,
and we have it every year's Handgun Rifles, Shotgun and
Precision rifle depending on the year.

Speaker 8 (02:01:29):
That's it. Otherwise I'm pretty much.

Speaker 4 (02:01:31):
Doing obbing the pat Rodgers Rove roundup and thunderstick which
Daryl didn't mention, which is shotguns, and that's going to
be over in Perumph at the old front Side facility.

Speaker 7 (02:01:44):
I mean it lives owned by Staccato now. And then
the rest of myself is all private. I do private stuff.
I do a lot of government contract stuff. I don't
really have an open enrollment if I'd actually let my
web page expire and.

Speaker 8 (02:01:58):
It has gone away.

Speaker 7 (02:02:00):
So but if you want to contact me, probably the
easiest way to do it is it a f T
T one seven at MSN dot com.

Speaker 8 (02:02:10):
That's the best way to look at me.

Speaker 12 (02:02:13):
Steve Steve Shields High Doesert cartridge company, maker of all things.
Right now, Revoll, We're cool.

Speaker 8 (02:02:27):
I'm just gonna talk to.

Speaker 4 (02:02:30):
With that.

Speaker 8 (02:02:31):
We talked youbout a lot.

Speaker 12 (02:02:32):
Yeah, yeah, I've just gotten done with a project that
Rob Leahy got a hold of me on last month
about a special deal that they were doing for sure
of Jim Wilson, and they asked me to do the
AMMO for that, and I get this big, long email
from Jim Wilson today he got the AMMO and shot

(02:02:53):
it and blah blah blah blah, and just you know,
I couldn't believe that I have this on my Website's
going to be a normal thing. I'm gonna for now
forty one special. So it's there. It's sold out in
about a half an hour. I put about I can't
remember how much I had made. I sent Jim a

(02:03:13):
bunch and some other people some of it, and then
I had I think about five hundred rounds in fifty
round boxes and it was gone in about half an hour.
So it's on the website now. More is coming next week.
But I enjoy working with Brian and Dbie and Mark

(02:03:35):
and some of the other guys in the industry doing
the loads, bringing up the loads that either haven't been
around for years and haven't been forgotten. I don't wash
I should say this. Brian's going to reach to the
camera here and slap me when I say this. I generally, Brian,

(02:03:55):
I generally don't do hot loads. Generally, Steve Fisher had
me do that forty four magnet for him. That is
just smoking.

Speaker 2 (02:04:05):
Don't shoot it in a revolver.

Speaker 12 (02:04:07):
No, it's on the website. It's for a lever gun only.
It was that smoking about seventeen fifty out of the
lever gun. Wow, that's what you wanted. It doesn't it's
I shot it. I checked it in my eighteen ninety
four Marlin. It's that thing was built in the seventies
and it nothing, you know. But I have this full

(02:04:29):
silhouette target, you know, steal from MGM three eighths thick, huge,
you know, it's out seventy five yards and I hit
that target and it rocked it backwards and fell on
its face.

Speaker 5 (02:04:40):
And then I did.

Speaker 12 (02:04:42):
That meat hammer three hundred grainer XTP for Brian and
it did the same thing. At about seventy five yards.
It rocked it back and a whole lot less power,
I mean, well a whole lot less velocity, but.

Speaker 2 (02:04:59):
A whole lot more bullet.

Speaker 12 (02:05:01):
Yeah, a whole lot more ball at three hundred grain.
It rocked that thing backwards and getting flapped it on
its face. So I enjoy doing that kind of stuff
working with dB now on a new forty The only
thing I really haven't the only caliber I really haven't,
which is odd I got drawn into this forty five
colt is only loads I really haven't readdressed was the

(02:05:25):
forty five cult. I've got one load, which is the
old cult single action army load. It runs about seven
fifty seven sixties, so you can run it in the
old antique guns and it's going to be fine. But
I'm going to be doing some more powerful stuff XTP
load and I'm going to be pooping it out. I'll
still offer the seven to fifty because Matt Olivier just

(02:05:48):
got a hold of me and said, what you're doing
this forty five? What's going on with that? And he goes,
I got a bunch of old antiques I can't shoot,
but now I can shoot them.

Speaker 3 (02:05:55):
I said, there you go.

Speaker 12 (02:05:57):
So I'll probably keep the seven to fifty load, but yeah,
if you got people got something that they want done,
as long as I have the yeah there it is.
As long as I have the machines. I run automated machines,
so as long as I have the machine set up
for it, the dies and everything, I can make whatever

(02:06:17):
load within the caliber you want. It's not that big
a deal. I've got micrometers on all my all my
dies and everything. It's just screwing them down, adjusting them
and adjusting the powder and loading them. It's not that
big a deal as long as I have you know,
I'm already making the caliber. But I love doing that
kind of stuff. So the people that work for me,
I drive them nuts because i usually don't get into

(02:06:38):
the shop until noon and I'm going, hey, we got orders.
Sort of feel you gotta be making animal come on,
come on, come on.

Speaker 5 (02:06:43):
It's yeah.

Speaker 12 (02:06:44):
So but I love doing that kind of stuff so
high as at Carters dot com, if you guys, anybody
has something needs to be done. I'm also doing rifle
loads now for hunting seasons coming up. I post them
about every other week. I mean I got it out
about eight nine, ten different common loads for hunting season,
a bunch of liverloads I'm always you know, I've got

(02:07:07):
forty four to forty on the on the on the burner,
ten milimeters on the burner. I'm gonna do DB's forty
five cold load next. After I got done that with
the forty forty one special, I got a couple more
loads Sheriff Wilson wants me to do. So once I
dial those two more in, those will be on the
website and then I'll get on DB's forty five cold
and probably the ten milimeters then probably forty four to forty.

(02:07:27):
But I always got yeah, yeah, forty four, Yeah, thirty
forty Craig.

Speaker 5 (02:07:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 12 (02:07:33):
Cecil Verch has been on me thirty forty Craig, and
I said, he's got brass. I said, well, send me that.
I said, you got brass. Yeah, I got We'll get
it to me. I'm still waiting still, see. So if
you're gonna watch this.

Speaker 2 (02:07:43):
Three rounds, what's that you're gonna make three rounds?

Speaker 12 (02:07:46):
It's yeah, I'm still waiting seasful for your brass to
show up. Okay, So I can't help you out.

Speaker 4 (02:07:51):
You know.

Speaker 8 (02:07:52):
Thirty eighth Smith and Wesson. Don't forget it.

Speaker 12 (02:07:55):
Oh, I got that on the board too from Mark, Yeah,
thirty eight Smith. In fact, I've got five other people
who's hit me up in the last month about thirty
eight Smith and Wesson.

Speaker 8 (02:08:02):
So your brass, one brass, yeah one.

Speaker 12 (02:08:06):
I kind of just kind of look at it going okay.
So when I start getting more and more and more,
that's okay. Then it goes on the board, it's on
the cue.

Speaker 6 (02:08:13):
I got to tell a short story about this.

Speaker 2 (02:08:16):
So Shane John took possession of one of these in
the blued gun the same day that I took possession
of said stainless one, and we both apparently took them
right to the range with the two ten high desert
forty one mag load right, which is two ten and
about it, right around one thousand out of these five

(02:08:37):
and a half inch guns, and it's loaded with an
XTP And Shane calls me and he goes, Dude, this
this rigor is one of the most accurate handguns I own.
I'm like, oh, yeah, I know. He goes, what are
you doing. I said, well, I'm driving to the woods.
I got a buddy, I'm going on a pig hunt.
I said, what are you doing? I'm driving to go
on a deer hunt. And right then the comp petition started.

(02:09:01):
Who is going to dirt nap a critter with that
load and that gun?

Speaker 6 (02:09:05):
First?

Speaker 2 (02:09:06):
And two hours later, two hours later, he goes, hey,
check this out. He's sitting there with this nice West
Texas buck and I'm like, oh, man, and I didn't
see a pig, so kudos Shane.

Speaker 5 (02:09:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 12 (02:09:20):
When I heard about that, I think I was first
in the Lipsey's booth that shot I had to lay
my hand on one of them, and then Jason say
he's gonna get me one.

Speaker 1 (02:09:29):
So and he's in Africa right now, so a lot
of good that's doing us well.

Speaker 2 (02:09:35):
He wanted to be here. It was just funny that
Shane and I didn't say it's a race whoever gets
the first animal. It just like we both knew, well, hey,
I got a run like it was. Yeah, it's fun.

Speaker 12 (02:09:51):
Anyways, anybody wants something that's specialized. I love doing that
kind of stuff loud loud. I like, you know, erecting
older loads, stuff that's forgotten and bringing out new stuff
that people want. I know a lot of people.

Speaker 8 (02:10:06):
You know.

Speaker 12 (02:10:07):
Though animal companies aren't going to do it. I'm small
enough where I can still do it. So anyways, that's
me in a nutshell awesome.

Speaker 3 (02:10:16):
John can't really find me on the internet. I mean
you can, but if I don't know, you probably won't
accept your request. Stay off the internet pretty much, just
keep my head down and go to work. But acexor
dot com or anywhere ACE Virtual shooting is present Discord, Facebook, Instagram.

(02:10:38):
You will see me trolling around there more and more
in the future. And other than that, you know, you
got to text me best luck.

Speaker 1 (02:10:48):
With that in mind, we are planning to have an
ace VR episode and we also are going to have
a stupid, big bore episode in the future.

Speaker 2 (02:10:59):
Probably August, probably on here.

Speaker 3 (02:11:02):
Whatever Matt talks me into it is the best way
to run me down.

Speaker 1 (02:11:05):
Yeah, it'll be fun, Scott.

Speaker 5 (02:11:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (02:11:12):
So, Scott van Dorston van Doorsten Custom Firearms. You can
find me at VDC Firearms dot com and folks keep
an eye on my YouTube channel, VDC Firearms. I'm about
to drop a bunch of cool custom revolver stuff. I've
got several different projects I'm working on and it's gonna

(02:11:35):
be a lot of fun. So yeah, check out my
current videos on there. I have a six part series
that if you're the type of guy that used to
like watching The New Yankee Workshop with norm Agrams, you'll
you'll like my trigger Job series. It's just as exciting
but just as informative as well. So yeah, like Daryl,

(02:12:00):
I gotta hit it. I gotta go spend his time
with the family. So thanks for the info. I enjoyed
the conversation. Is great talking to all you guys.

Speaker 3 (02:12:09):
Cool.

Speaker 1 (02:12:10):
Thanks for doing me.

Speaker 5 (02:12:11):
Thanks.

Speaker 1 (02:12:12):
So, yeah, I'm going to do my wrap up whatever,
But that doesn't mean we're done. I'm going to have
to take off, but these guys hopefully are still going
to talk because there are still topics and their topics
they are anxious to talk about. So big thanks to
this panel. Awesome discussion. It was so enjoyable and it's
just nice to sit back and listen and learn and

(02:12:33):
have this caliber of panel is Yeah, that's the lame,
but yeah, big thank you to the panel. Wonderful discussion
as per the norm. Also big thank you to the
listener of the viewer. Also big thank you to the
sponsors Lucky Gunner, Filster Walter, and also the Patreon supporters,
those people that are network supporters on the on the forum.

(02:12:55):
If you go to patreon dot com slash Primary and Secondary,
you can help support the network there as well as
into the forum and clicking on the banner. Lots of
stuff is going on in Primary and Secondary. It's not free.
It also takes a lot of time. That's where this
comes in. All the resources for your use absolutely free.
Nothing's behind a paywall.

Speaker 5 (02:13:15):
No.

Speaker 1 (02:13:15):
I want everyone to have access and if you've benefited
from it, considered doing that. Support this specific broadcast was
cut short live on YouTube because we were messing with
guns those jerks. So a couple people spoke up and
I sent out the link to get here and they
can watch it. They were able to watch behind the scenes.

(02:13:36):
They're still here. But we do have a couple more
episodes on the horizon. You have the two that I
just talked to've talked to John about. Those are going
to be interesting, especially I'm especially looking forward to talking
about ACE because the ACEVR has been so fun, and

(02:13:57):
it's been so fun to introduce that whole the VR
and have the whole shooting experience, and it's portable, and
it's you make this initial investment and now you're no
longer buying Ammo because it's all virtual. And man, you
have a fan going and you're there, have a little

(02:14:20):
smell of burnt gunpowder, and yeah, you feel like you're
on the range.

Speaker 2 (02:14:24):
It's an amazing system if you haven't messed with it already.

Speaker 1 (02:14:27):
But I'm going to run upstairs and I think I
have a four year old to put to bed, so
my camera's going to be out, but these guys are
going to keep on talking. And so with that mind,
when you guys take off. You just sign off and
I'll come back eventually and just kill the feed. This

(02:14:48):
is like the old school moodcasts where we used to
do this. At some point Chuck Presburg will be snoring
on camera and that's how it used to be.

Speaker 3 (02:14:56):
So yeah, I have at it twenty years of my life, buddy, Yeah,
really snore?

Speaker 5 (02:15:04):
Cool?

Speaker 2 (02:15:04):
Well how about it? Thanks?

Speaker 5 (02:15:07):
Thanks Matt, Thank you.

Speaker 3 (02:15:10):
So I was thinking we could talk about some references
for people that may get the bug. We need people
to buy revolvers and revolver Ammo and care about revolvers.
We won't be able to get him anymore. So selfishly
go to Lipsy's, buy a black Hawk, find an old
red Honk, spend fifteen grand on a lineball and gun broker.
Do something. So I've got a stack of books here.

(02:15:31):
I think probably the first one is the Old six
Guns by Keith that kind of started it for a
lot of us, or is a good reference. I take
this thing to the shoot Us holiday every year, and
then I forgot it this year and I just leave
it out on the table for people to sign. I

(02:15:52):
got my invite to the to the first shoot Ust
holiday I went to. But this is kind of a
wealth and knowledge that we still look at today for
for a baseline of what you can get away with
with a revolver. My other one is the Complete volume
of pet Loads for Everything under the Sun. It's also

(02:16:12):
a great phone book if you need to interrogate somebody.
It's not too old, but the binding fell apart on
my last one, so this one's probably three or four
years old. They got two books that cost more than

(02:16:32):
any of the guns I own, The Kopek Cavalry and
Artillery Revolvers and then the Study of the Single Action
Army Revolver. If you're into colts, if you can find
these books, they're great ones. I got it wrapped in
plastic for a reason they are. They are hard to
come by now. John Copek was the the authority on

(02:16:53):
actual original single action armies. Certainly other stuff about them
in here, but really, if you want to find out
exactly where your original single action army went to the
United States government, what configuration it was, what rebuilds it's had,
you could send it to him and get a letter written.

(02:17:14):
So if you ever see a single action army with
a Kopek letter and you can afford it, grab it up.
There won't be any more of them. Custom Revolver by
Hamilton Bowen is another one. They are out of front
for the time being and have been for a little while.
And it's about three hundred and fifty dollars for the book.
I think that's a bargain. But it's on kindle. It's

(02:17:36):
not the same, but for fifteen bucks you can get
a kindle and put it on your iPad all the customer. Yeah,
so much information for the Smith guys standard catalog, baby,
some pigas standard catalog.

Speaker 5 (02:17:52):
You know.

Speaker 3 (02:17:53):
Is is the Bible of Smith and Wesson revolume and then, uh,
this is the latest one. I got a couple older
ones too, but fourth edition I think is the latest one.

Speaker 2 (02:18:06):
Was Marin was that would be second Maybe it's the.

Speaker 8 (02:18:11):
First edition, the fifth edition.

Speaker 3 (02:18:15):
Okay, there's a new one.

Speaker 2 (02:18:17):
Yeah, so I know what I'm doing tomorrow. Side note,
when we were doing the launch with Lipsies on the
Ultimate Carry, the uh, the fifth edition was supposed to
come out about ninety days before shot show and they
delayed it to put the Ultimate Carry on the cover.

Speaker 3 (02:18:38):
Right now, it was like, yes, the fourth edition goes
through Yeah, twenty fifteen copyright twenty sixteen, but it goes
up to twenty fifteen model year and gun so I
need to get the updated one. And then since we're
talking forty five, Gonzappens Book of the forty five.

Speaker 8 (02:18:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:19:00):
John Taffin, if you're watching and you don't know who
he is, one of the great gun writers of all time,
passed away unfortunately early this year. Founded an organization that
at least Brian and I are are very lucky to
be a part of. And big, big loss, giant heart,

(02:19:21):
wonderful guy, not just a gun writer, but a school teacher,
you know, sold a large portion of his gun collection
a couple not a large portion, but sold a lot
of his guns a couple of years ago. So make
sure his great grandkids could go to the best schools.
Just a not a bad bone in John Taffin, and
a tragedy that we lost him, But we're lucky he

(02:19:42):
shared so much and lived the life he did. So
the perfect packing pistol is was a John Taffin thing.
What gun do you pick up and take? You know,
if you don't know what gun to grab? Would he
grab and pack around? What's your walking around gun? And
then there wasn't really a prescription for that. It's funny
to see the the answer that people that are familiar

(02:20:05):
with get. So if you guys are into it, just
what's your perfect packing pistol?

Speaker 8 (02:20:14):
Okay, I'll start.

Speaker 4 (02:20:16):
I'm a Smith guy, always know a Smith guy, and
I've been thirty eight Special guy forever, so I would
say probably a K frame four.

Speaker 8 (02:20:25):
Inch just does anything I need a gun to do.

Speaker 7 (02:20:29):
I can go to three seven, but I've had some
bad luck with three of them K frames in the past,
so I pretty much stick with thirty eight Special. But
that if I'm going to pack again forever, if I
only had to have one, probably be a K frame
Smith and Wesson for my perfect pack pistol.

Speaker 12 (02:20:46):
Steve, Well, I'm a big forty one Magnum guy. So
there's that in frame. Got that fifty eight there from
your dad sent me there a few months back. I
had a fifty and I bought back in the mid
eighties about eighty six. Of course I sold it and
I've been, you know, beat on ever since I did

(02:21:07):
that one. But forty one has always been my you know,
forty four's you know for what for twenty nine It's
like it's not that much big difference. The cases, you know,
aren't that much difference. You can push a forty one
pretty good and it'll do the recoils blast. I think
he can do just about anything you needed to do

(02:21:28):
for the most part, and proby forty one magnumen frame
for me. If I had to have one gun, one
one revolver. I do like the KVE frames, but I
like the forty one.

Speaker 5 (02:21:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:21:43):
So side note.

Speaker 2 (02:21:44):
That same guy that asked the question, he said, great
deals on guns and revolver stocks from RNG.

Speaker 6 (02:21:50):
That's my dad, my dad's shop at RNG Firearms dot net.

Speaker 2 (02:21:56):
And he's like, I don't know how he makes any
mind at it, but he keeps stocked up on elkstag
and and he passes along a lot of good deals
on revolvers because he's he's a revolver guy. However, Comma,
my perfect packing pistol has recently changed. I used to say,

(02:22:17):
give me a K frame, you know, sixty five, sixty six,
nineteen sixty. I don't care something thirty eight in K frame.
And then I got into forty five COLT and I
was like, I can shoot everything from one hundred and
eighty five grain bullet to a three hundred and twenty
five grain bullet in the same gun, and I and

(02:22:40):
I say that I'll qualify that with specifically a Ruger Blackhawk.

Speaker 6 (02:22:45):
Because with the adjustable sites.

Speaker 2 (02:22:47):
I can dial it in for whatever, and I can
there I don't know what you can't hunt with a
forty five cult Blackhawk. I mean, I don't know. Is
there an animal out there that you.

Speaker 12 (02:23:01):
Could in North America?

Speaker 3 (02:23:03):
Not in North America, southern half Africa? Probably not right.

Speaker 2 (02:23:09):
And I mean and even getting into like tier two
loads on a Cape Buffalo twelve fifty with a three
hundred and twenty five grain bullet probably not optimal. But
but you know, I mean, there's just so much flexibility.
And I've gotten to where I really like shooting single
actions as much as I do double actions, you know,

(02:23:32):
because it's a whole different discipline, and it's a whole
different you know, grip, the way you hold the gun,
the way like the way I sit in the gun
is different, the way I load for the gun is different.
It's it's just a I don't know, like I got
into hunting with single shot rifles last year, Like why

(02:23:55):
would you do that when a bowl gun's fine?

Speaker 3 (02:23:57):
You know, but it's fine, Yeah, because it's fun.

Speaker 6 (02:24:02):
Because you and I say it like like it was
when I got into archery hunting.

Speaker 2 (02:24:08):
You have to be like you have to be dialed in.

Speaker 8 (02:24:12):
You can't be yes, you got to be good, and
I won't work if you're not good.

Speaker 2 (02:24:17):
And I feel like single actions in revolvers kind of
they like they harken a lot of the same disciplines,
you know what I mean, Like you got to you
gotta do it right or it doesn't work.

Speaker 12 (02:24:31):
And uh so, man, that's a whole different discussion when
you start bringing up that stuff about you got to
be good, you know, I you know, you hear you know.
I pack a revolver a lot, always had to back
up whatever. And people are going, why are you packing that?
I can not packing like a small auto or something.

(02:24:52):
But blah blah blah, you don't have enough rounds, you
don't whatever it is that going. I don't know I
hit what I aim out.

Speaker 2 (02:24:58):
I don't think.

Speaker 5 (02:24:58):
You know, you know.

Speaker 3 (02:25:02):
What's that?

Speaker 12 (02:25:03):
What's that saying I keep hearing about? You know the capacities,
you know what's it?

Speaker 2 (02:25:12):
The accuracy and penetration have have been like put aside
for capacity and expansion, expansion.

Speaker 12 (02:25:22):
Yeah, it's drives me nuts every time I hear that.

Speaker 5 (02:25:25):
No, that's exactly right.

Speaker 12 (02:25:27):
But it's true. If you don't have capacity, you don't
have the up to dated whatever. It's like, you know,
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (02:25:37):
For me if I don't know where I'm going.

Speaker 12 (02:25:39):
See you guys are just bring up the single shot
rifle stuff. It's like, now I want to try single
shot rifle stuff.

Speaker 6 (02:25:45):
Oh my god, But John, what's yours?

Speaker 4 (02:25:47):
Man?

Speaker 3 (02:25:48):
What's your uh?

Speaker 6 (02:25:50):
Perfect Taylor?

Speaker 3 (02:25:53):
Like everybody for where I'm going. If I'm going to
downtown Denver, which I haven't done in six years, You're
probably gonna carry nineteen appendix, but millions of rounds three
blocks over the years. That's but you know my woods
gun walking around.

Speaker 5 (02:26:09):
Gun.

Speaker 3 (02:26:09):
Don't know where I'm going, but I'm leaving the house.
Probably the Bobby Tyler and Ronnie Wells did they called
it the featherweight a couple of years ago. It's the
carrow that Ronnie cut a real rear sight into a

(02:26:30):
U shaped serrated site and the front is windage, an
elevation adjustable dovetail site. You can buy him from Ronnie.
I think Bobby sells them to you. He did an
aluminum frame, it's stainless steel. It's it's dishwasher safe. I
picked that up off of a single action forums from
some guy like I like my gun's dishwasher safe. I'm
out in the snow a lot. I'm out, you know,

(02:26:52):
I don't know what the weather's going to do when
we're out hunting. And it's a it's a midframe gun,
so I can shoot up to call it. Twenty three,
twenty four, twenty five thousand PSI forty five Colt one
sixty Cowboy loads at eight hundred all the way through,
but a two to twenty five hard cast at eleven

(02:27:12):
hundred feet per second is gonna still be in that
window and super light. I think it's a four inch barrel,
super handy gun just kind of does everything that that's mine,
you know. I think I think John Taffan had one,
and I am sure it'd scratched the itch for him too,
So definitely, Yeah, it's it's an awesome gun. Well, email Bobby.

(02:27:36):
If enough people want them, they'll do another run of them.
They were a bargain for what they were. They did
the Bowen style or kind of red Hawk style blash
shield cuts. I think narrowed the frame ever so slightly
in a couple spots. Super sleek gun without aluminum frame
would fit a big hand like Daryl could shoot it

(02:27:56):
comfortably and have his whole hand on it. Steve Fisher
could get his on the grip and not be cramped.

Speaker 7 (02:28:02):
You know.

Speaker 3 (02:28:03):
Just a great gun. And then at the internal work
it had an accuracy package, free spind Paul. Ronnie did
the hammers and triggers on him. So beautiful, beautiful guns,
but just perfect to grab and carry around if you
don't know what you're going to need it for.

Speaker 8 (02:28:20):
Is Ronnie related to Fred? I don't know, Okay, I
just wondered. I know it's son or something.

Speaker 3 (02:28:27):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:28:30):
Ronnie. It's funny. I've I've had grip frames from him
in the past, and I never really knew who he was,
Like my dad would order grip frames.

Speaker 6 (02:28:40):
I've got a RW number five.

Speaker 2 (02:28:43):
We're building up on a fiftieth anniversary three fifty seven
right now. That's probably going to be chambered in forty
one special when I'm done. But Shane John called me.
He's like, hey, man, call Ronnie Wills. He's starting to
build guns or he's starting to do customer packages. And
I just cold called the dude and he's like, hey,

(02:29:03):
I'll be it. I'll be at the holiday next week.
Let's let's hang out, you know. And uh, one of
the kind he's a he's a wild man, dude. I
like that guy.

Speaker 4 (02:29:16):
He but.

Speaker 2 (02:29:18):
He was talking about like how man Gallagher and Bowen
and Wineball, like who's left?

Speaker 5 (02:29:27):
You know.

Speaker 2 (02:29:28):
We had a long chat about that, and and he
was the guy that was like, hey, man, don't give
up on forty five cold yet, don't. So one he
talked me out of a pretty pretty large expenditure. But uh,
but two he was like, I'm like, dude, I could
like I could see myself jet skiing with this dude,

(02:29:51):
or like running a drag car, like like he's just
the guy is one hundred miles an hour. But I
but he's a good dude.

Speaker 3 (02:30:00):
And so I mean, Ronnie builds top fuel drag cars
and guns. And you know how I said we all
eventually get it out of our system is settle on
if it's if it's got a four or five in
the front nine to ten eighty, and if we're happy
with it. I didn't mean Ronnie right, he's the access

(02:30:21):
to some of the stuff he builds. Was it forty four?
Ronnie Stupid is the name of his Wildcat cartridge? And
he's like, you want to shoot this? I'm like, and
I'll shoot about anything, but I make Ronnie explain to
me what I'm shooting before I shoot it. Now put
it that way, like, what what is this? What did

(02:30:44):
you do?

Speaker 5 (02:30:45):
Well?

Speaker 2 (02:30:45):
I will, I won't give away the numbers. But he
started quoting loading down into me, and I'm like, are
you sure? He's like, dude, when me and Lineball were
hanging out, we would take two ninety six and do this,
And I'm like, are you sure you weren't trying to
make a pipe bump?

Speaker 3 (02:31:04):
If anybody were going to put rifle powder in a
handgun and at work, it would be Ronnie like, He's.

Speaker 2 (02:31:08):
Like, you get away with it, you get well, you
know it may not be that, it may not do
everything you want zero indeed, yeah, elmer Keith. If elmer
Keith owned a machine shop.

Speaker 3 (02:31:23):
A big one with lots of lots of stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:31:27):
But I just ordered one of those Furman uh Furman
and Ronnie's rare sights for oh they're awesome.

Speaker 5 (02:31:35):
My three p.

Speaker 2 (02:31:35):
Fifty seven Ruger I picked up a fiftieth anniversary from
Steve Ostrom and he had done all the magical inside stuff.
I was like, and he put a busy hammer on it.
So yeah, I like single actions for me. What I
love about it is it's the most non tactical, Like

(02:31:57):
I don't have to put on multi cam or a
chest rig like nobody cares and never. Yeah, it's and
you know, like nobody gets into dogmatic arguments about whether
a forty five is better than a forty four magnum.

(02:32:18):
It's like they're all cool, you know, and you don't
end up with, well, are you're running a three moa
dot You're gonna get killed in the streets. It's like
nobody cares about that stuff. It's like we're more like
content to be happy sharing load data and bullet casting
composition and like nobody just like defends this dogmatic arguments

(02:32:44):
in the single action space.

Speaker 3 (02:32:46):
Nope, did it for sixteen years, ar Fifteen's like ruled
my life. There's the reason I have everything i've got today,
no doubt.

Speaker 5 (02:33:00):
And I loved it.

Speaker 3 (02:33:01):
Man, I've probably spent over a year of my life
looking through night vision. If you add it up to time.
Spent almost five years in Iraq, A little over four man,
a little over four best job I ever had, multi
cam night vision AR fifteen thermals. Loved it, loved almost
every second of it. I've been out long enough that

(02:33:24):
I forgot the bad stuff, so it's all good memories now.

Speaker 8 (02:33:29):
And you know I do.

Speaker 3 (02:33:31):
I love that stuff. I love talking about it. I
was just joking in the beginning, but I don't necessarily
love the people that are into it. They don't know why,
you know, yeap, Yes, I still have green night vision
tubes in my goggles that I cobbled together for free
with one of our maintenance guys. And you know what,

(02:33:54):
I'm not gonna spend twelve grand on the newest night
vision because I go to bed at nine o'clock. Man,
I'm old. I don't care what your FOM is. I
don't care what your line pairs are on your tubes.
It doesn't matter to me, and it shouldn't matter to
you either, because you don't actually use them.

Speaker 2 (02:34:10):
But if that's what you're into, who am I to
knock it?

Speaker 3 (02:34:12):
I got six dozen revolvers, I don't shoot that's what
I'm into. Right, But the revolver community has been a
breath of fresh air. Honestly doing it in the military
for so long, I was a weapons guy, you know,
most of my career I was an eighteen Bravo, and
then I got out, went straight into training working at Magpole,

(02:34:36):
teaching people really basic basic marksmanship. If we were honest
about it, it wasn't anything super high speed, and none
of it is Guess what, man, if you can't stand
there and shoot from a static position on a flat ranger,
in no position to be in supine prone shooting under

(02:34:56):
a car, you have no fundamentals to build that off of.
So most of what we did was boring fundamentals, which
I really love to teach people. And then working at
Magpole for thirteen years in product development, you're not gonna
only get so excited about a poliverer pistol grip for

(02:35:17):
an AR fifteen. At this point in my life, it
all looks the same to me. It's like every traffic
stop when you're a cop. You know, most of them
are probably pretty extremely mundane. Right, Revolvers, and then that
revolver community, the people in it, the Bobby Tyler's, the
Jason Klausner's the I could name two hundred of them.

(02:35:37):
I don't want to leave anybody else, so I don't
even want to try. You know them all.

Speaker 5 (02:35:41):
Man.

Speaker 3 (02:35:41):
It kind of made me enjoy guns again because at
some point they just all started looking like doorstops or
lug nuts to me, Like, I just don't care anymore. So,
you know, the thing I've loved since I was a kid,
that crowd gave back to me. And it's awesome.

Speaker 2 (02:35:56):
Yeah, my first hand again, I showed Wayne Dobbs was
at my house two days ago, which you know, it's Wayne.
He's great, you know, and him and my dad. You
put them in a room together and you just set
back and like what But.

Speaker 6 (02:36:13):
But I pulled this cult.

Speaker 2 (02:36:15):
I've got a new Frontier twenty two that was my
first first and I still have it.

Speaker 6 (02:36:21):
It's it's gone away and come back to me twice.

Speaker 3 (02:36:24):
And I got a couple of those.

Speaker 2 (02:36:27):
Yeah, and it's the most like mundane looking revolver. But
all of my memories, like as a kid shooting and
doing all, like most of them stemmed from that gun.

Speaker 3 (02:36:41):
How many bricks that twenty two went through that thing?

Speaker 2 (02:36:43):
Oh my god, there's no telling. Well when I was
with my dad a lot, but I went to Wyoming
on a prairie dog hunt, and I spent one whole
day prairie dog shooting prairie dogs with that gun. No
other nice and I mean some incredible feats of luck

(02:37:05):
and marketing ship, you know. But I mean if you
look at it and you go, oh, it's it's an
old it's an old single action gun. And then I
have my granddad's six and a half inch single six
convertible and like that. There's nothing special about that gun

(02:37:26):
other than on a prairie dog hunt. I'm loading Cci
Maximag twenty two mags as fast as I can and
handing that gun to my granddad, who's now gone, you
know so, and I ended up with it. I'm like, man, dude,
these these have meaning. If you handed me an ar
right now, I'd go, yeah, cool, tool bro, it's set

(02:37:47):
it over there like whatever, And then we'd spend an
inordinate amount of time arguing about whether the comp M
four was the better than the COMPIM five or whatever
or whereast It's like, hey, that's cool. Like Wayne Dobbs
is sitting there and I've got all these cool pre
war smith and Wessons and he's like, dude, that new

(02:38:10):
Frontier is freaking cool, dude, you know, And like you said,
it's like all the stuff that got me into guns,
that whole single action and revolver community like gave that
back to me from all the years of I don't
care what soldering iron tip you used to burn your glocket,

(02:38:31):
doesn't matter whatever. Yeah, so whatever, it make your own salvation.

Speaker 3 (02:38:36):
But but yeah, but again I'm not knocking anybody that
that's what floats their boat. It floated mine for a
long time, right. It also paid for all this stuff percent,
so can't can't knock it. But yeah, I've very much
enjoyed it. I've my journey to becoming a FUD has

(02:38:58):
been more fun than I ever could imagine. Absolutely love it.

Speaker 8 (02:39:02):
You have a double thud.

Speaker 7 (02:39:04):
Although I have to guys, but I want to do
some talking about some books. So this is one revolver stuff.
This is Shooting by Fitzgerald and he is the famous
guy that made the Fritz Revolver. If you don't know
about it, you need to look it up. And it's
a great book. It's got a lot of stuff in
it and you will see some of the modern technique

(02:39:26):
from a gun sight in it from nineteen thirty two.
This is another one Hatcher's book on pistols and revolvers,
a great history book.

Speaker 8 (02:39:36):
You need to have one of these. Everybody should have
this book. It's a valuable resource to us.

Speaker 7 (02:39:42):
I'm big into history and this book by HP White
is on revolver crutches and you will learn tremendous about
the different types of revolver crutches. And you learner that
nothing is really new. This stuff has been out here forever.
It's out of print, but you can find a fairly
reasonable And then one of my old favorites, uh is

(02:40:03):
this one and is Hanging Digest. I've had this thing
from since nineteen seventies and it is a great book,
again resourcing on revolvers, a lot of good information on it.

Speaker 4 (02:40:13):
So I got a lot more, but I got to go.
So I'm gonna say good night to the ice. Thank
you so much for letting me be. Thank you, Mark Pleasure.

Speaker 3 (02:40:21):
We got a question in the comments about Loves for
the Now thud p. Seven and you got to wait
for Daryl to come back for.

Speaker 4 (02:40:27):
That one line.

Speaker 6 (02:40:31):
I've had a couple of them.

Speaker 3 (02:40:33):
I love them. I wish I bought more of those
Border Patrol Trade ends when they were five hundred bucks
hands selected from CDNN. You and me, boy I have
run for a PS cool guns man, cool guns. But yeah,
we'll get we'll get Daryl back on here and we
will remember to ask him so about seven so let

(02:40:54):
him go nuts.

Speaker 6 (02:40:56):
You'll appreciate this.

Speaker 2 (02:40:57):
My dad bought four of those, he sold two, and
then he sent one to be hard chromed, all hard
Hans Gruber style nills on it and pressure on it.
Though that gun was really awesome until you ran two
mags and tried to reholster it. Yes, he needed a
bucket of water on dump it in.

Speaker 8 (02:41:20):
Good night guys.

Speaker 3 (02:41:21):
See you buddy had We had another one about who
does the best great finish work and revolver work because
the greats are retiring, which is true and unfortunate. Bobby
Tyler does the best finish work. Doug Turnbull is the legend,
the standard which all finish guys are judged by, or

(02:41:42):
Smith and Wesson on every gun they did before nineteen seventy. Well,
and Turnbull's retired, he is, and I mean I I
think he was farming some of his workout towards the end. Anyway,
his shop is still going though, shops still going, and
I know they send some stuff out to trusted agents.

(02:42:03):
From what I understand, Bobby's a great gunsmith. Bobby's a
remarkable finisher. So if you need something finished, when they've
got the capacity undertaken work, I think Bobby'll even tell you.
I think it's even on his website, like he found
his passion and talent in finishing. And then he's got

(02:42:24):
engravers he works with. They do some inhouse laser engraving,
but he's got Rocky Sharp. I know he farmed. He
does a lot of engraving with Rocky Sharp and then
does the finish work on him and Bobby's Bobby's case
hardening is gorgeous.

Speaker 2 (02:42:42):
Yeah, I'm as soon as I find the picture, I'll
put it up because uh or I'll as soon as
I can get the.

Speaker 12 (02:42:54):
Last week to try to get some bear hugs from
a square butt inframe. They don't have anym I know,
no square buttons, but they've got him. But she said
they'd be on square butts at some point, but didn't
know when I know.

Speaker 3 (02:43:09):
They they almost killed Pordusty with grip making and I
think they're trying to keep him from jumping into the
Grand Canyon over grips because it's it's a lot of work, man.
There's a reason grips are so expensive, and there's a
reason some of the guys have a have a long backlog.
Roy fishfall was was remarkable and if you see a

(02:43:31):
set of his grips by him, I don't care what
they cost her. If you have a gun for him.
Rob Rowan picked up the mantle from him, and he's
he's slowing down with a you know, six year backlog
and counting right now and only able to do do
so many grips. But those guys, those guys don't exist
anymore like like we used to have. Unfortunately, Zane Thompson

(02:43:56):
is every bit probably the grip maker those guys are,
and it's only going to get better with time. But man,
grips are hard to come by. We lost a lot
of great grip makers and that stuff's hard on your body.
I think that's what people don't realize. You know howm
I elbow replacements, you know, trying to get Hamilton Bowen
to fit a grip frame to a ruger. In the

(02:44:18):
last five years about make him hang the phone up.
It's hard on your body, man. It tears those guys up,
all that blacksmith and in metalwork.

Speaker 5 (02:44:28):
So I.

Speaker 2 (02:44:31):
I had Curtis Harlowe do two sets of stocks for
me around button hey, like kind of semi boot and
a set of ends that are like a shortened target
with roper checkering.

Speaker 4 (02:44:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:44:45):
I did roper checkering on the others. And it was
on that six twenty four I was wearing at the holiday.

Speaker 3 (02:44:50):
Yeah. You know, Keith Brown doesn't really do much anymore,
just when he needs vacation money. I think he makes
a couple sets and sells them through Sock Coller. His
books are back open and he did one of my
blind balls and he did this freedom arms gun with
a bull out one and phenomenal work with a great turnaround.

(02:45:16):
But you know, get all the getting's good. It's getting
slim pickens for guys that do that quality of work anymore.
It's it's a dying art man.

Speaker 4 (02:45:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:45:26):
The Harlow he took my order and he goes, I'm
not doing anymore and I'm only taking your order because
I did a bunch of grips for your dad. And
a dude called him the next day and he was like,
my books are closed. And I asked him. I was like,
what's the deal.

Speaker 6 (02:45:41):
And he goes, Man, my elbows, my hands won't take it.

Speaker 2 (02:45:45):
And he goes, just sorry, And you know, I mean,
I've driven a file on enough nineteen eleven's that my
hands are pretty pretty chewed up and I can only
work like doing revolver work. I got about three hours
and once that's up, I'm like, I can't work on
any more guns today. Like I mean your hand, like

(02:46:06):
you go to bed at night like this from gripping
parts and it's just man, it's a lot of wear
on your body that people don't understand. And good gunsmissed
by a mill and fixtures and get ninety percent of
the stuff done there and then they come back and
hand fit it.

Speaker 3 (02:46:25):
But at some point, there's always a thought.

Speaker 2 (02:46:28):
There's always a file, there's always emery cloth, there's always
a standing block.

Speaker 12 (02:46:34):
Get their hands and fingers and these odd positions for
a long period of time, and your your hand because
like it's like.

Speaker 2 (02:46:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I I uh, Darryl, and I
like that. Twenty five to five, he said, hey, man,
I want you to put a narrow, smooth trigger and
do this and do this, and I'm like, Okay, I'm
gonna bob the hammer and I'm gonna do the trigger
face and then you're gonna go shoot it, and then

(02:47:04):
I'll do the action work later because I my hands
don't want it. That's I got to shoot too.

Speaker 5 (02:47:10):
Yeah so.

Speaker 2 (02:47:13):
But but yeah, so the cool thing, like you know,
we're talking about like forty five cold Steve. Steve's been
loading stuff for us for a couple of years and
it's kind of kicked off with the three fifty seven magnum, like, hey,
let's let's load that in an efficient loading out of
a four inch gun, so like plus P thirty eight

(02:47:38):
in a three fifty seven case, so we don't scar
model twenty seven twenty eight cylinders.

Speaker 5 (02:47:44):
You know, you know.

Speaker 2 (02:47:46):
And then two guys from louis that were in Louisiana
on a secret mission called him and we're like, hey, bro,
you need to fire up thirty two h and R
mag like real real soon. Well what's coming? I can't
tell you, but thirty two h and R is going
to be hot.

Speaker 3 (02:48:05):
So what that's my carry gun? Like a lot of
US three twenty seven LCR with Crimson trace scripts with
thirty two, my own loads, thirty two Starline brass. I'd
have to go look and see what powder I used,
and the gold Dot thirty two bullet, and man, you know,

(02:48:26):
I work from home. I live kind of out. I
live in a very safe area, you know. I picked
that up from Darryl. I don't go anywhere I need
to carry my comp staccato. I just don't go there anymore. So, man,
I really enjoy the thirty two. That's another one. Thirty
two H and R is the forty five cult of

(02:48:48):
the small bars.

Speaker 4 (02:48:49):
Man.

Speaker 3 (02:48:49):
You can just do so much with it.

Speaker 12 (02:48:53):
Yep, every day, indeed, yep every day.

Speaker 2 (02:49:00):
And that you know what's funny that when the u
SEE project went on, uh I was down in Louisiana.
I had met Jason like one other time. We talked
on the phone for years, you know, because my dad
and all that. But uh I met him on another
gig and and we're standing there and I'd been shooting

(02:49:21):
the prototype thirty eight and I'm like shooting two and
three inch groups at twenty five yards. Once I figured
the sites out, I was like, this is killer. And
he goes thinking about doing it in thirty two h
and R. And I was like, dude, that cartridge is dead.
I said those words. I was like, the cartridge is dead, dude,

(02:49:42):
Like I.

Speaker 12 (02:49:43):
Had like a kad how do you like your How
do you like your crow?

Speaker 4 (02:49:46):
You like it?

Speaker 12 (02:49:46):
Based it first?

Speaker 2 (02:49:53):
So and Darryl goes, you have to do this in
thirty two h and R. And he goes, Okay, I
just needed to hear somebody else really say it. And
I was like, hey, if you want to do it, like,
we'll get behind it. But dude, nobody's load namo for it.
And Daryl looks at me and he goes, we'll take

(02:50:14):
care of that.

Speaker 5 (02:50:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:50:16):
And I'm like, do we have that much stroke? Or
or like what did I miss here?

Speaker 4 (02:50:21):
You know?

Speaker 2 (02:50:22):
And yeah, he goes.

Speaker 3 (02:50:23):
He goes.

Speaker 2 (02:50:24):
As soon as that catches on and people get privy
to it, that's going to be the new thirty eight.

Speaker 5 (02:50:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:50:31):
I've been seeing it everywhere Hornety's factory Critical Defense now.
So Jason is another unsung hero in this industry that
everyone who's into really guns of any sort should think,
because a lot of the cool stuff we have if
it wasn't for him and lipsis there wouldn't be a
way to get it done. I'm telling you, Ruger Ruger

(02:50:51):
is a powerhouse. Could not respect them more. I've been
to their factories, I've worked with them really really really
closely on a number of things, and I'm a Ruger collector.
I love Ruger, but I'll be honest, man, they don't
have the imagination to do the things that Lipsi's asked
for sometimes because to their credit, they can make a

(02:51:13):
ten twenty two every nineteen seconds, you know, that's not
their focus. They are an industrial machine, and it's phenomenal.

Speaker 5 (02:51:23):
Man.

Speaker 2 (02:51:24):
There's a question for you guys. If the Blackhawk and forty.

Speaker 3 (02:51:29):
Five Colt existed and we knew the capabilities of the
forty five cult that that gun really opened up for us,
do you think forty four Magnum would still exist? If
forty five Colt existed the way it did today? Do
you think forty four mag ever would have happened?

Speaker 12 (02:51:46):
Okay, I'm going to jump on this for a minute,
yip only because.

Speaker 2 (02:51:52):
You should.

Speaker 12 (02:51:53):
I see this with a lot of you know, I'm
not on a lot of gun for him. What's one
like cruise a couple of them? But I think people
would pooh pooh. That based on the forty four magnum crew,
because the forty four magnum is all that and nothing
can touch it for you know, I'm not talking about
four to fifty four cassule or the line bossed. I'm
talking about just regular. That's where I'm thinking of, you know,

(02:52:16):
mainline calibers. Okay, it's just you know, you know, the
normal calibers that are out there.

Speaker 8 (02:52:21):
Okay.

Speaker 12 (02:52:23):
I think people are gonna say, you know, what, do
you know if you're gonna go to Alaska, everydy's forty
four magnum whatever it is, you never hear forty five cold.
You just I'm not saying I shouldn't say never rarely.
It's always about forty four magnum, always, always, always, And
I think you'd have that crew and I fight that crew. Yeah,

(02:52:45):
with the ballistics, you know, coming up with stuff well
that you know, the three fifty seven d B load.
I keep going back to that because that is that
has crunched a lot of people's thought processes to do
what it does. That's such the velocity. You don't have
to run it at twelve hundred and run at nine
thirty five and getting eighteen twenty inches of penetration. Those

(02:53:06):
xtps are expanding.

Speaker 6 (02:53:08):
Reliably or a person.

Speaker 12 (02:53:10):
Yeah right, well so and so you try to get
rid of You try to sway that crowd mollistically, you
know from the seventies and eighties, which is like slapping
their mother or pulling teeth. They're holding back the tide.
I think you're going to have the same problem with
the forty four magnum crowd. Yeah, trying to go Hey,
the forty four long colt can do xxx, and they're

(02:53:32):
just gonna go on what huh? No way, So no
one insane. I think that's what you're gonna be fighting.

Speaker 3 (02:53:41):
Is the same thing. I agree. If we could go
back into time to nineteen fifty and you knew you
could get a forty five colt to do the same thing,
somebody brought it up earlier. I nerd out on this
stuff so hard. I take it for granted. But Okham's razor. Well, Yeah,
but what gun do you forty four magnum is forty
four magnum? What I gun you put it in forty

(02:54:01):
five cult? There's a lot of nuances there. What if
we did a new Sammy speck for the exact same cartridge,
increased the cartridge overall, lent to accommodate like three twenty five's,
and called it forty five Magnum.

Speaker 2 (02:54:16):
I bet people would shove up, right, well, it's going
out of style. The thing I look like, I like,
look at it like gun history. Right, So forty four
Magnum came out fifty five, correct about nineteen fifty four?
Fifty five?

Speaker 3 (02:54:37):
Yeah, I think fifty one.

Speaker 12 (02:54:39):
I don't mean to google it, but yeah, we're in
the ballpark.

Speaker 2 (02:54:42):
We're in the ballpark. Ruger released the three fifty seven
Blackhawk in fifty five.

Speaker 3 (02:54:48):
Yeah, yes, so, yeah, it was I think it was
fifty one that they officially introduced it.

Speaker 2 (02:54:53):
Then. Yeah, so Ruger didn't introduce the forty four mag
Blackhawk until sixty one.

Speaker 3 (02:55:02):
I was wrong, announced to the public January nineteenth, nineteen
fifty six, fifty six.

Speaker 2 (02:55:07):
So Ruber after Blackhawk a year after the Blackhawk, but
they didn't do the Blackhawk in forty four mag until
sixty one. But they scrambled to start working on it
because right, I think they started on it.

Speaker 3 (02:55:22):
In fifty six and it took him a few years
to figure out frame size and whatnot.

Speaker 12 (02:55:26):
So going back to forty five long cult. Back in
the day, did they have a platform that you could
really poop up to forty five long cole And I
think that was the hindering part of it.

Speaker 5 (02:55:37):
They did, but they didn't know it.

Speaker 3 (02:55:38):
And I think a lot of that spaghetti westerns and
then you get into the Clint Eastwood and you know,
forty five colt was pretty much dead until people got
interested in Western movies again. Yeah, and just a confluence
of events that kind of brought it back around, but
just in a vacuum. I think if you told Elmer Keith, hey,

(02:56:01):
here's a ruger blackhawk off the barrel length of this
forty four magnum that'll do the same thing. Which one
do you want to carry?

Speaker 13 (02:56:11):
If they would have made they would have made five
long colt.

Speaker 12 (02:56:15):
It's because of a hard hitting, heavier bullet and the
diameter size is bigger.

Speaker 3 (02:56:23):
You know, I'm convinced if you renamed it forty five
magnum and took it up to thirty thousand PSI people
quit buying forty four magnums.

Speaker 2 (02:56:30):
Well, the trick would have been if they would have
just extended the forty five colt case like fifteen thousands death,
just make it not quite Casole length.

Speaker 12 (02:56:42):
I was gonna say, what's Cosole length?

Speaker 3 (02:56:45):
And it's only ten Is it only ten dolls longer?

Speaker 2 (02:56:49):
I thought it was like thirty thousands longer.

Speaker 8 (02:56:51):
I thought it was.

Speaker 6 (02:56:52):
Yeah, I don't have one on my desk. I've got
some out in the garage.

Speaker 3 (02:56:57):
But I think it's a I think it's a tenth
of an inch in case capacity, and then it's an
extra twenty thousand, four sixty XR.

Speaker 2 (02:57:10):
Yeah, maybe that's yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:57:11):
Somebody will have to fact check me on that though.
But if they were the reason, there's a reason I
have reloaded books so I don't have to remember it
all right, if.

Speaker 2 (02:57:19):
They would have linkedined the forty five back then yeah,
But if you look at it, Dick Casole didn't start
playing around with forty five colt until later.

Speaker 12 (02:57:29):
You're talking about you talked about almost a tenth of
an inch longer.

Speaker 3 (02:57:33):
Yeah, but he no longer.

Speaker 12 (02:57:36):
Yeah, four fifty four is one three eight three and
forty four magnums one two eight five Ye.

Speaker 2 (02:57:42):
But yeah, but I mean if you look like Dick
Cassole started what like the like seventy really dorking around
with Yeah, and I can remember reading like in the
eighties gun Rags when four to fifty when he was
really pushed in four fifty four, Casole like him talking

(02:58:04):
about triplex loads, like, hey, we put a little unique
under a little H one ten under a little forty
two to twenty seven to get that thing really going.
And it's like, you know, the concept of that today
is just even to me is like, good lord, these
dudes were well and then you meet Ronnie Wells and

(02:58:25):
you get it right. You're like, oh, I see, here's
a here's a tricky one. Guns and Ammo wrote about
Dick Cassole's cartridge in nineteen fifty nine, but they did
not bring it to the market until nineteen eighty three.

Speaker 4 (02:58:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:58:45):
Yeah, So I really think like had had they went okay,
we're going to link in the forty five case a
little bit, call it the forty five cult Magnum or forty.

Speaker 6 (02:58:57):
Five h Smith and Wesson mag or whoever would get
behind it.

Speaker 2 (02:59:04):
I don't think forty four would have taken off like
it would have because it was already like all the
info was already there, whereas forty four Magnum was like
all they did they linked into forty four special and
then just put the load that Elmer Keith was blowing
guns up within that.

Speaker 3 (02:59:21):
So forty five colt had a bad reputation for brass
too because balloon for the longest time the balloon had
brass was super weak. But I mean, I'm here to
tell you tight chamber forty five colt and there's some
drawbacks to that too. You got to know how to
manage it. But get Jack Huntington found a lineball Ben

(02:59:43):
Forkin whoever, and build you a tight chambered forty five
colt with starline brass. You can get ten twelve fifteen
loadings at fifty eight thousand psi before you start to
see brass fatigue in some of those. Yeah, you know,
extractions are problem.

Speaker 2 (02:59:59):
There's there's such challenges.

Speaker 5 (03:00:00):
For sure, they long.

Speaker 12 (03:00:02):
Does they cut them good?

Speaker 3 (03:00:03):
That's the problem.

Speaker 12 (03:00:04):
I have to be consistent with the cut.

Speaker 5 (03:00:07):
Well like that.

Speaker 12 (03:00:08):
I like that deal a Brian, Brian you did at
that Lipsy's Singing It shot. You're talking about the forty
one Magnum and you pen gage that they're all the same. Yeah,
And I like the deal that that that Jason said,
probably because the tooling is fresh, because they don't make
forty one magnums much.

Speaker 3 (03:00:24):
It's their story.

Speaker 5 (03:00:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (03:00:26):
I mean.

Speaker 12 (03:00:28):
If you can get a good, solid cut cylinder and
consistent cut, oh yeah, you can freaking good things.

Speaker 3 (03:00:36):
Freedom, arms, freedom, any of the custom guys. I mean,
I've had cylinders sleeved before to bring them in because
there was there no other way or make a cylinder. Yeah, brass,
life's fantastic if you're.

Speaker 2 (03:00:50):
Not blowing them out.

Speaker 3 (03:00:53):
I'm oblong, you know, because that's the other thing. Are
your cylinders the right styves cool? Well, that's one thing.
Are your cylinders round?

Speaker 5 (03:01:02):
Yeah? Oh there is another one.

Speaker 2 (03:01:05):
Well you I can't remember if you were sitting there
or not, but one of the shoot is brought over
a nineteen seventeen. He's like, man, it's kind of sticking
on one chamber. And Bobby Tyler and I sit down
and I'm like, I've got the brevet file out and
I'm getting the ratchet just right, and I turned the
cylinder a little bit and that suckers egg shaped.

Speaker 3 (03:01:26):
And that's the Guys that build their own cylinders like
to put their final dimensions in with a hone, which
is great if you got access to one. You try
to hone a factory cylinder that's not round. All you're
doing is making it more oblong. The egg right cylinders
are a big deal. And man, you don't always know

(03:01:49):
what you're getting. Hopefully if you get a bad one,
it's undersized well.

Speaker 12 (03:01:53):
And I've run into so many people who don't even
have that knowledge about how important the cylinder is. Yeah,
they think it's rears of they think it's all game, yeah,
cone and you know, barrel throat, whatever, But they don't.
I had very rarely do I have a conversation about

(03:02:14):
how important the cylinder cuts are.

Speaker 3 (03:02:16):
There are a lot of Ruger and Smith and Wesson owners,
especially Smith twenty five owners that you know, they might
have a gun, they thinks a dog And if they
called you up and said, can you please load me
forty five colt with a four fifty four pro jo
and the gun would hammer.

Speaker 5 (03:02:33):
Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 12 (03:02:36):
That's one thing I have to concern myself about loading
for public. I have no idea what to put that
thing into. So I was working with Steve Fisher on
that two sixty four is gone. Yeah, you know, they
ain't gonna go in a revolver. There's no flipping way,
you know, put seventeen fifty a revolver, so I had
to put that lever. Only do not using revolves.

Speaker 3 (03:03:00):
Yeah, well you know my long loads. That's I load them.
I don't give I don't load AMMO for people. It's
all for my own use. I know a gun it's
going in like you hadn't jumped on, Steve. But I've
got three twenty five grade forty five colt at thirty
thousand PSI and fifty eight ish thousand, and I use

(03:03:22):
a different crypt eye on both of them so I
can look at them and tell like, this does not
go in a standard black Hawk, it's a five shot gun.

Speaker 2 (03:03:30):
We got a good question. It is how often are
cylinders not reamed properly? That there's and it says percentage
question mark.

Speaker 3 (03:03:41):
I don't think I know to buy it, but enough
that we hear about it a lot. So for the
guys that are listening and don't know how to do that,
Furman Garza is a cylinder wizard, probably the best one
you have access to. So you get Firman on the phone.
He'll insist on it. You tell them what your gun's doing.

(03:04:04):
He'll talk you through some options, ask you to go
shoot your gun see if you really have a problem,
and then for the cost of postage, you can send
Furman your cylinder. Firman is a real gunsmith and he
will evaluate your cylinder, call you and tell you here
is what I found. I can fix it, I can't.

(03:04:27):
And if you can't fix it, it's a super reasonable price.
Don't quote me, but I think it's like, I'm sure
it's less than one hundred bucks to correct your your
cylinders and throats if you can.

Speaker 12 (03:04:37):
And I go to gun shows. Probably got three different
gun shows I go to with the Animal Company. I
was just gonna say that I have taken the engages
with me. I also take a bores cope well at rifles,
but I take pin gages with me. See a revolver,
I'll throw the pin gages down the cylinder and they're going,

(03:04:58):
what are you doing? I go check it the cylinder?
What's that going to do with it? I'm going never,
I don't have time.

Speaker 5 (03:05:04):
Ye.

Speaker 3 (03:05:05):
Time to explain to you if the gun's going to
shoot or not love shooting.

Speaker 12 (03:05:09):
That's the foundation of the accuracy of this gun, and
the pressure is and how this thing is going to
react is that cylinder So I can send.

Speaker 3 (03:05:16):
To cylinder throats, cylinder dimensions. Honestly, I'd probably put your
concentric forcing cone above the cylinder dimensions.

Speaker 2 (03:05:26):
Chamber chamber dimensions.

Speaker 3 (03:05:27):
Sorry, so throats, concentric forcing cone, and chamber dimensions like
you can't make.

Speaker 2 (03:05:35):
Up for those.

Speaker 12 (03:05:36):
I have people that will will call me going, hey,
you're your advertised velocities. What you're you're off? I said, Well,
I said, here's the problem is, there's a lot of
different variables and revolvers, the cylinder gap, forcing cone, throat,
I said it all. It makes a difference, I said,
plus altitude, and they're all over.

Speaker 3 (03:05:58):
Tightened with a constriction. So now one I just ran into,
specially in black Hawks. You can laugh it out, it'll
be fine. But if you don't know that well.

Speaker 2 (03:06:09):
One of the things Steve and I discovered when we
started both using garments is I was getting we could
take the equivalent gun and I would get a twenty
or thirty foot plus or minus. You know, velocity change
the flash gap on a cylinder, you're losing twenty twenty

(03:06:32):
feet per second per thousand and so we would go
back and forth, and then we had two guns that
we were shooting that were basically identical, and I was
getting about thirty feet per second more and I'm like,
wait a minute, what altitude are you at?

Speaker 6 (03:06:48):
And that for yeah, and I'm I'm at basically a thousand,
So that had a bearing on it.

Speaker 2 (03:06:56):
But the same guy just asked Smith and weston titanium cylinder,
and I'll tell you, because I've plug gauged a bunch
of tie cylinders, they are very, very like regimented and
very quality controlled on Thai cylinders. Yeah, just because of
the brittleness and the inherent brittleness.

Speaker 3 (03:07:15):
Of the material. They're pretty picky about.

Speaker 6 (03:07:17):
Yeah, in the tooling.

Speaker 2 (03:07:19):
The tooling has to be razor sharp to cut titanium,
and consequently that's one of the reasons Thai cylinders cost
substantially more. And I haven't like on the thirty eight, three,
fifty sevens with Smith and Wesson, I've not in the
modern guns, they're like spot on forty four's. I plug

(03:07:41):
gauge the mountain gun. It was at four two nine perfect,
nailed it.

Speaker 3 (03:07:47):
Everybody I know that's gauged a new mountain gun. It
shocked me, frankly, because Smith's had beir ups and downs
for sure, and they heard nothing bad about the guns
and companies do that. They especially smeth and Ruger publicly
held companies. They have shareholders there behold it too. They

(03:08:07):
have to make money or they will get fired. And
we see with every firearms manufacturer, depending on management goals,
supply chain, all these complex woes that go into managing
a business ebbs and flows with the end product. I
don't care who you are. If you're a company with

(03:08:28):
more than five people, some guy's going to chew green
gum instead of blue gum one day and your extractor
tension is not going to be right on a nineteen eleven.
You never know, so you know, the bigger the company.
But I try to con remind people not to get
too wrapped up around some of those details if they

(03:08:50):
don't truly apply to you, because like man I have
heard Ruger has been shipping a lot of Blackhawks with
off center barrels. Cool, but like, what's our metric for that?
I heard twenty four barrels? Do they make more of
those revolvers than anybody on the planet, you know? Or

(03:09:16):
twenty thousand with the volume you know? I hear about
more problems with turus. Okay, some of that might be
valid some of that might be the fact that if
you knew how many guns, well you can you can
actually find out. Go on the FBI and atf import
data and see how many guns Taurus imports. Right, Yeah,

(03:09:39):
the sure volume is staggered. Oh man, you know they
just got put out. They were the biggest for for ever,
biggest importer and now by country it's Turkey just because
of all the all the shotguns.

Speaker 5 (03:09:52):
Man.

Speaker 2 (03:09:53):
Yeah, but and the nineteen eleven's now that they're flooding
us with flooding.

Speaker 5 (03:10:00):
The uh.

Speaker 2 (03:10:02):
The interesting they like what I do if I get
a smith, even a vintage smith, first thing I do
is I cut an eleven degree forcing cone in all
of them. Yeah, and it that takes tooling, and I
use han hand pull through reamer that you can't even

(03:10:22):
buy anymore.

Speaker 6 (03:10:23):
You can buy pieces of it, but you can't buy
the kit that I got.

Speaker 2 (03:10:27):
Well, and then I lap it so that way, if
you're shooting lead, you're not going to get lead embedded
in the forcing cone. And when I go back and
look at some of the old smiths and old rugers,
sometimes they have a forcing edge. Were you know the
guy that was cutting the forcing cones that day was like,
I got to do five hundred of them, this one

(03:10:50):
might get more than that. It turns and it's down
the road, and that in and of itself. I'll watch,
you know, groups go like this and then getting them
to twenty four. Okay, I want to shoot an inch
or inch and a half at twenty five getting them there.
Most people don't possess the skills to shoot that well,

(03:11:12):
and most AMMO isn't loaded closely enough to get it
to harness that, which is one of the things I
like about Steve's AMMO is that takes the AMMO factor
out of the equation for me, because, like you know,
I'll clock his AMMO and I got an SD of
like eight, Like how do you beat that?

Speaker 5 (03:11:33):
Right?

Speaker 2 (03:11:35):
So it's kind of it takes that X factor out.
And with what I find with vintage Rugers, not so
much post twenty ten, but with the older Rugers, I
really like it's a it's a rabbit hole that you
dive in and you go, Okay, well, what bullet weight

(03:11:55):
do I want? What velocity? Once you once you figure
that out, you start looking at okay, chamber throats, forcing cone,
is it, barrel constriction at the threads did they constrict
it at the end of the muzzle when they heated
and sweated that base?

Speaker 4 (03:12:12):
On?

Speaker 2 (03:12:13):
Do I need to lap it? If I lap it?

Speaker 7 (03:12:16):
Like?

Speaker 6 (03:12:17):
Who do I go to get information to lap it?
And you were talking about Furman.

Speaker 2 (03:12:20):
So if you go on Doc Baranti's website Brandy Leather
and you go to gun Writings, Furman Garza did it
Like I don't know, it's maybe a fifteen hundred word
article that unlocks all of that. And it's like, I
can't believe that's not posted. Like when you go to

(03:12:41):
brown El's to buy a tool, they don't go check
this article out by firm and Gars, Like every revolver
website out there.

Speaker 6 (03:12:49):
Would be like, hey, here's the article by two Dogs.

Speaker 2 (03:12:52):
There you go. But and a lot of people man
like you buy an off the rat gun, they're never
going to spend the time with the rest and you know,
sits and really putting the final tune up on one.

Speaker 3 (03:13:09):
You know a lot of people are happy to shoot
HSM Cowboy Special at a pipe plate at ten yards
and if that's what they want to do with it,
and they're probably not going to have these problems.

Speaker 12 (03:13:23):
I don't think people shoot enough of their gun. Their
gun's enough to get it into a problem, unless it's
a problem right out of the box. No, I agree, Yeah,
what's the average?

Speaker 2 (03:13:35):
I mean, I spend years.

Speaker 12 (03:13:39):
I mean time is passing so fast the back I
want to say about twenty years ago or better. I
can't remember who did.

Speaker 2 (03:13:46):
The article, but it was.

Speaker 12 (03:13:49):
One of the gun rags. Like, the average shooter goes
out three or four times a year to a public
gun range. They'll shoot, depending on what they have, pistol
maybe one hundred and two hundred rounds, ar three four
hundred rounds, rifle maybe fifty rounds or you know something,
and then go back home, clean, put it back and

(03:14:09):
say that's where that's the average person. That's what they
were saying back. You know, I don't know if that's
true or not. If that's you know, that's the case,
it's based on that. If that is the case, then
a lot of guns aren't the going to be They're
never going to shoot their potential. They're going to find
their potential.

Speaker 3 (03:14:24):
And I don't know, you know a lot of guys
bought up thirty odd six Models seventy in the early
eighties with two boxes of core locked and still hadn't
shopped through them yet, you know.

Speaker 2 (03:14:36):
So it's funny you say that I my dad passed
my uh A three hundred win in nineteen sixty nine
Winchester seventy three hundred win mag to me.

Speaker 3 (03:14:48):
You have, like my dad passed.

Speaker 2 (03:14:50):
I'm like, no, he passed it on to me. I
know what I paused that It was a wrong pause.

Speaker 12 (03:14:56):
Yeah, so punctuation is everything.

Speaker 2 (03:14:59):
Yeah, yeah, I just saw him a month ago. No, No,
he's fine.

Speaker 6 (03:15:04):
He's in portant ramsas like drinking beer and fishing this week.

Speaker 2 (03:15:07):
Good okay. But he he passes along this three hundred
win mag that we call doctor Death gun Show special,
like one hundred dollars has been in a house fire.
We refinished it and I get it and it will
not group, and I'm like, I can't abide this.

Speaker 6 (03:15:27):
So I go take it to a friend of mine
who was a gunsmith, and he goes, hey, you need
a pump jack handle.

Speaker 2 (03:15:34):
I said why, and he goes because this barrel shot
completely out, like it's got like nine and a half
inches of free bore right, And I'm like, so, I said, well,
wait a minute, my dad's.

Speaker 6 (03:15:47):
Had it twenty years.

Speaker 2 (03:15:48):
He shoots like two three rounds to side it in,
and then he shoots an animal with it and we
call it a day. And he goes, that's a.

Speaker 6 (03:15:56):
Number three sporter from nineteen sixty nine.

Speaker 2 (03:15:59):
I went, yeah. He goes, that barrel's rated for about
three hundred grounds a three hundred bag, And I'm like,
are you serious and he goes, yeah, dude, that back
then people bought, like you said, two boxes of core locked.
It's on the paper, and now I shoot it once
or twice a year, so you know, I had to

(03:16:20):
have it rebarreled and all the things, and now it's
now it's a great rifle again. But you know, I
think people need to manage their expectations a little bit
with some of that stuff. Yeah, and we're kind of
spoiled now in the modern era that we got good
barrel steel. You can go buy a five hundred dollars
sub minute rifle. You know that wasn't the case twenty

(03:16:45):
thirty years ago.

Speaker 3 (03:16:46):
Do you guys remember when you had to go to
George Gardner Microsigno or get a AI and with Federal
gold medal match they would guarantee that gun would shoot
one minute of angle. Now you can go buy a
Savage axis like mechanically like manufacturing wise, probably the least

(03:17:08):
attractive gun I could imagine. Put Hornity American gunner in
it and cool, It'll shoot one minute of angle. You
buy a little bit better, ammo, and you're down to
three quarters. You go buy a Tica and you know
they got a little more expensive like locks. You know,
they're seven hundred bucks now instead of five hundred. Do

(03:17:28):
that get Hornity eld X, you know whatever, the Hornity hunter,
bro Hornity hunter, Ammo is cool man, you got a
half a minute gun and you are like with a
fairly decent scope, you're eleven hundred bucks in the whole rig.

Speaker 5 (03:17:44):
You know.

Speaker 12 (03:17:45):
It's like ever since I started making hunting rounds now,
I get people come in and they'll buy two boxes
and all this will ask me about, you know, how
you pass my lifetime. I'll take it. Cite the gun
in there, sits in there safe. They might you know,
before your season, they might blow out another two or
three rounds and didn't go hunting and maybe not get
anything whatever. And then yeah it goes them back away

(03:18:07):
and the next hunting season they'll put two or three rounds.
You know, to verify zero within whatever their speck is.

Speaker 2 (03:18:14):
But you know, good on them. We need them, you know, yeah,
not all, not everybody could be a turbo nerd.

Speaker 3 (03:18:24):
You know, I'm super lucky to have been able to
make a good living out of this, but you know,
we would not have all these resources without. You know,
for every one of us, there's a thousand people that
own one Smith and Wesson shield nine mil that they

(03:18:44):
got when Brown Els had them for two thirty nine
with a fifty dollars rebate. Yeah, hopefully they got one
with a rifle barrel, and you know, like that's their gun.
They need a gun, they don't want a gun. In particular,
in a lot of cases, it was a big deal
for us. When I was at magpolled in COVID to
keep up with demand, and I was tracking really closely,

(03:19:04):
you know, first time gun owners and millions and millions
of first time gun owners. I think we're on our
fortieth something month of a million plus firearms adjusted NICK
transactions per month. And the interesting thing was within I
think an SSF said, within fifteen weeks of that first

(03:19:28):
time gun owner purchase, a huge percentage of those people.
I had to go back and check the numbers. Somebody
will be like, you're an idiot, You're wrong anyway, first
time gun owners during COVID where people are scared because
of food and toilet paper shortages, political unrest, YadA, YadA,
whatever the case, we recruited a lot of gun owners
that probably don't align with our values, right and cool, man,

(03:19:51):
I'll take them for a number of reasons. But the
amount of people that were first time gun owners that
circled around and bought a second gun and a very
short period of time was staggering. Yep. Man, the more
the merrier, I'll take them because there's a lot of
those people that probably don't vote the way we do
that you know, now have a little bit of skin

(03:20:14):
in the game when it comes to guns.

Speaker 5 (03:20:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:20:17):
I had a dear friend. He was he did pass
away in a motorcycle wreck, but he he called me
the day after they said, you know, shut everything down
and we started having riots in Oklahoma City, which is
like the most vanilla town on Earth. Right, Sure, there's

(03:20:37):
people rioting, and he's like, hey, bro, don't judge me.
I need a gun. And I'm like, come on, let's
step into the water. And he ended up buying in
a five year period, he bought eighteen guns, and he
was still kind of your atypical like middle of the
road Hillary kind of dude, you know, like it's but

(03:20:58):
you know, he's not like super li but he's not
super conservative. But he was like, I'm really impressed, Like
I got into guns and nobody made fun of me
or nobody like you guys just want to go to
the range and hang out and shoot and do all
the things. And he's like that was really like not

(03:21:19):
what he expected. He expected to go through like a
series of hazing steps before he got to where, oh
I got my consumer carry permit.

Speaker 6 (03:21:27):
He was like, it was completely opposite. But he was
kind of an exception.

Speaker 2 (03:21:32):
I saw a lot of people that bought their first
gun and just like it's a magic talism, it stays
over there.

Speaker 3 (03:21:40):
And I got the super simple theory on having a gun.
Whoever shoots you will have one. You should probably have
one too, right, Look, but.

Speaker 2 (03:21:50):
You know that what where I got really disillusioned with
like the training world and the like the uber tactical
world and stuff like that is one that that ain't
me anymore, right, I don't have to do that stuff.
But two. I watched people argue over like really like
getting violent, heated arguments over stuff, and I go, you

(03:22:12):
guys are talking to about ten thousand total people in
the country. I'm arguing on split times and training theory.
I go, we just picked up twenty million new gun owners.
Who's talking to them? Who's who's telling you know, you
guys are telling them that they're Torus eight fifty six

(03:22:34):
is dumb. I'm over here going, no, that's really not dumb.
That's actually a pretty good like first time purchase. But
you know, you guys that are dependent on this industry
to succeed and thrive are trying to cut off the
new people that are interested in it because they don't

(03:22:55):
live up to your imaginary standard of you know, performance
or whatever. And the Revolver space is like totally the opposite, like, oh, hey,
hey man, you're you're nineteen seventy two Charter Bulldog. That's
kind of cool, man, bring it out.

Speaker 3 (03:23:13):
Let's shoot it.

Speaker 5 (03:23:14):
Man.

Speaker 3 (03:23:15):
I've got a buddy, and he is the opposite of us.
He is liberal, borderline radical, progressive, lives in downtown Boulder,
fabulously wealthy, creative. I don't really want to say what industry,
because if I do, you'll be able to google it
and figure out who it is. And I don't want
to do a diamond out like this, but we are

(03:23:38):
mountain bikes together. Yeah, and dude, I mean, I couldn't
have had it more. I love the guy. You know,
we don't vote the same. We got over it when
COVID happened, and I mean did not own a gun,
does not believe in it, you name it, probably gave
money to anti gunning. But dude, he's my mountain biking buddy.
And like, you know, I know some people take that,

(03:23:59):
you know, the wrong way. Not everybody would do that,
but man, I don't know. I can't just avoid everybody
I don't agree with completely. And dude's been.

Speaker 2 (03:24:08):
Super generous to me.

Speaker 3 (03:24:09):
We're buds.

Speaker 5 (03:24:10):
Man.

Speaker 3 (03:24:11):
When COVID happened, maybe a month and two and he
called and was like, I want an AR fifteen and
a Glock nineteen. I think I've heard you talk about
those like and man, this dude's like because when people
come to kick the door in am I mc mansion,
he's like when the savages of Volder that I used
to defend, you know, their right to be progressive dirt

(03:24:34):
bags that want to take your stuff, literal communists you know. Uh. Now,
I'm thinking you could have been onto something, and I
want to be prepared for what's coming. This makes me
very upset, and I'm like, yeah, man, like I'm not
gonna say I told you so, Like, come on over,
We're going to the range.

Speaker 2 (03:24:52):
Like let's do this. Oh yeah. And I think we
championed a lot of people that way.

Speaker 4 (03:24:59):
You know.

Speaker 2 (03:25:00):
It really incensed me to see people like, well, if
you can't shoot a sub for three bill drill, well
you know the whole.

Speaker 3 (03:25:07):
Civil War then right, like oh yeah, well it's okay.
You know, we'll have all the guns when the Civil
War kicks off. As someone who has been to places
with civil wars, let me tell you what I very
much don't want happening where my kids go to school. Man,
we should all just maybe shut the up about that. Yeah,

(03:25:28):
no one wants that. If you think you do, it's
because you will be the first one to die. You've
never been seen anything like that. It's not a good situation.

Speaker 5 (03:25:37):
You know.

Speaker 3 (03:25:37):
I don't want to shoot other Americans in the streets
and you shouldn't either. And if you do want that,
we're not as on the same side as you think
we are.

Speaker 5 (03:25:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:25:49):
Oh I used I used to get laughed at. Oh,
you're just a gun nut training junkie cop. And I'm like,
the fact that I trained with this has probably saved
more people from getting shot then you count.

Speaker 3 (03:26:01):
You bet. That's why he makes the big bucks man.
People are like, here, what's what's this job? Like, man,
you can shoot people all the time. Like, dude, anybody
can shoot people all the time. At the higher level,
you go, you know, you get paid to no one
to not shoot people. Like discrimination is the real it's
the real magic, the real differentiator.

Speaker 6 (03:26:23):
Holy crap, we have gone completely off the forty five colt.

Speaker 3 (03:26:27):
Off the rails. Yeah, I mean not really. You can
shoot people with them.

Speaker 6 (03:26:32):
Well, you know my uh my big thing.

Speaker 2 (03:26:36):
I like the pig hunt, I like the deer hunt.
I like to do all the things. So I specifically
loaded the three twenty five Missouri bullet slammer for one purpose,
and that's to go get some ballistic test data on
life tissue of discourge of feral animals that have been faded.

(03:26:58):
And I I'm like, when I get that that revolver
dialed in, that will be like death incarnate for those
those creatures. But it is super cool to have a
gun that I can go, well, here's a two hundred

(03:27:19):
grain Cowboy action load at seven hundred feet per second.
Like I can't right do that in a forty four
mag too.

Speaker 3 (03:27:29):
Well no, and that's that's why forty five colts my
one and one and only. If I had to pick one,
I can shoot a cape buffalo the fifty eight thousand
PSI three hundred and sixty graine wide flat nose gas
chek bullet at fourteen hundred feet per second or whatever.

(03:27:49):
Steve might know. You'd be like, no, you're not still
doing that.

Speaker 12 (03:27:52):
Or I can play wrapping my head around those figures,
going ooh ouch.

Speaker 3 (03:27:57):
Yeah, it's.

Speaker 5 (03:28:00):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (03:28:00):
Kills what's in front of it, damages what's behind it.
Or I can go buy it off the shelf, this
few hundred grain something or other. I do Like I
said that Lee one sixty is a powder puff. It
is like shooting a three eighty out of a full
size in the automatic handgun. It's nothing, and it's the

(03:28:21):
same thing. Outside of those pitfalls. You got to know
which one's going and which.

Speaker 2 (03:28:24):
Gun or you're gonna have a bad time and just Steve,
just so we're clear and you don't like have nightmares.

Speaker 6 (03:28:33):
That's a coated bullet.

Speaker 2 (03:28:35):
It's not raw lead. There you go. I made the
mistake one night of saying, like on a deal that
Steve Shields hates lead.

Speaker 5 (03:28:46):
That was funny.

Speaker 12 (03:28:47):
I had so many people going, you need to go
look at this thing that Brian, don't look at this.
I had about eight people. It was funnier it was.

Speaker 2 (03:28:56):
I just made the off comment. I'm like, yeah, this
is this is lead.

Speaker 6 (03:28:59):
And you know Steve doesn't load lead because he hates lead.
And it's not that Steve hates lead.

Speaker 2 (03:29:05):
Loading wed in a commercial fashion is a massive undertaking.
It just maintenance.

Speaker 12 (03:29:14):
The bullet feed gums up the dies and gums up
there touches. But those missouris. I don't know what that
coating is, but it's like a bedliner. It's powder there.
And if you need a man your finger nails, you
just take the tip of the bullet and grind on
your nails and give yourself a manicure with it. It
ain't gonna scratch the damn bullet. And if you want
to sharpen your knie, lay some lay your blade against

(03:29:36):
that ship and it's gonna sit there and put a
nice edge on it.

Speaker 5 (03:29:40):
I don't know what is only.

Speaker 3 (03:29:43):
Single stage my lead bullets, man, I don't put any
of them in my Dylan even I don't. I sing
clean your folks, clean your diyes. You need to clean
your diyes just like everything else.

Speaker 12 (03:29:54):
See, I can't. I can't stop. Every five hundred rounds
and swamp dies out. It's not good for production. But
so when Rob Lay called me for Sheriff Jim Wilson's
forty one special, he goes, yeah, I need to do
like a semi wide cutter. I'm just gone, all right
for Jim Wilson. Will I will do that the man

(03:30:18):
in the world you would do that Kilded two fifteen.
I thought, oh I'm saved. Yeah, I'm saved. So I
went with that one.

Speaker 3 (03:30:27):
Yeah, Rob, Rob walked that gun around and took donations,
and I was happy to make one. And seeing the
pictures was awesome, especially given the the health scare that
Jim had between when we saw him and him receiving
the gun.

Speaker 12 (03:30:41):
So well, yeah, and that was he emailed me today
and thank you for the AMMO looks. Shot was good
and better than when he thought it would. And he
wasn't sure about the forty one special and went onto
this big long thing in me and I said, well,
I need a picture with you and the gun and
the AMMO. Then I'm going to take it. Then I
want to sign you need to send it to me
autographics that He's happy to do it, you know he is.

(03:31:04):
He says, next week, that's on my list. First thing
I'm gonna.

Speaker 2 (03:31:07):
Do, like a kicker of that gun. One of the
shootest calls my dad and he's like, hey, can you
go pick up this horror bath forty one special? Like
the day after Jim has said I really wish somebody
would make a forty one special. So I had to
set in the truck with a Model twenty eight converted

(03:31:29):
forty one Special by Andy Horrvath Oh for eight hours
going to shoot his like oh, because we knew who
it was going to and there's a we're transferring it
and all that. Yeah, And I'm like, oh, this is
the coolest thing ever. And then the next thing I
see is Rob Lahey with that gun going this is

(03:31:52):
going to share Jim, and I'm like, I didn't know
it had a price tager I probably piped up.

Speaker 3 (03:31:59):
Or yeah, if somebody had told me I could have
bought that gun before Rob walks it around, I probably
would have bought that.

Speaker 5 (03:32:04):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (03:32:05):
But you know, I'm setting in the car like I
don't even drop it in the floorboard, dude.

Speaker 8 (03:32:10):
You know.

Speaker 12 (03:32:11):
But what it was cool was that was based off
of what originally it was a three fifty seven, right.

Speaker 3 (03:32:19):
Yeah, twenty seven or twenty eight, I can't remember.

Speaker 2 (03:32:24):
It's pretty twenty eight, okay, yeah, which you know, I
can remember the days when a twenty eight, like they
would convert them to forty five coal, forty four special,
forty one all the thing, because it's it's a three
fifty seven mag on the shorter cylinder in for him.
But back then, like model twenty seven's were eight hundred

(03:32:48):
dollars guns and twenty eight's were like four hundred dollars guns.

Speaker 3 (03:32:51):
Your big bald buddy that just signed off snaked a
Bowen conversion forty five colt that Carl had before I
could get to it.

Speaker 2 (03:33:00):
Oh yeah, it was a third forty four that Bowen did.
Oh yeah, and Darryl like like we're hunting for guns.
He'll take risks on stuff that I won't like and
about half of the time, like he bought a Model

(03:33:20):
fifty seven converted to forty five cold ye, and I'm like,
I don't know about that, dude.

Speaker 6 (03:33:27):
And then we find out that George Nanty the guy
converted that gun.

Speaker 2 (03:33:35):
So he's he has a knack and he's willing to
get like he's like an addict at the craps table some.

Speaker 3 (03:33:41):
Of that stuff because he was like, hey, man, I
bought this and I need to sell some stuff to
pay for it before Melanie finds up. So she's watching
this now, you know. And so that's how I got
my Ontario PD twenty five was help fund it. And
you know that was like that gun's special to me
because it was Arrels have known him so long, Like

(03:34:02):
I was here and Darryl talk about this stuff when
I was nineteen and twenty years old, and obviously like
what hair has it fallen out? Is gray?

Speaker 5 (03:34:09):
Now?

Speaker 3 (03:34:09):
Yeah, So it's been a while. And so to have
a gun I got from Daryl that I think was
his shift lieutenant uh duty gun means more to me
than that Bowen forty five Coltwood. But don't get me wrong,
I'm gonna try to hit him over the head and
get that thing one day so I have him both.

Speaker 2 (03:34:29):
Well, it's really funny with like the way he and
I buy guns, like I'll look at it and if
I don't know the providence, I'm not gonna throw the dice,
especially not at a premium. Not the story right right,
And I said, because I grew up with a dad
that was in FFL and the custom nineteen eleven era

(03:34:51):
and all that. My dad used to tell me all
the time. He's like, buy the gun, not the custom work.
He's like, let some other idiot pay for the custom
work the gun for the gun. And I'm like, okay.

Speaker 6 (03:35:04):
And for a long time that applied.

Speaker 2 (03:35:06):
And now I'm starting to see now that like Bowen
and Gallagher and Alan Harton and these guys are kind
of like slowing down. Well now we've put we've put
like a tremendous value into that. Whereas twenty years ago,
if somebody said, hey, here's a here's a Bowen forty
five conversion onto this, I'd go, Okay, it's a Model
twenty eight. So what am I going to give you

(03:35:27):
for a primo Model twenty eight? Yeah, I mean you
want to you want.

Speaker 3 (03:35:30):
Your heartbroken, go on Ruger forums or single actions, go
back five to ten years, and you know lineball five
shot forty five cold four seventy five five hundred thirty
five hundred four grand all day. You know, good luck
geting one for twelve now.

Speaker 2 (03:35:47):
Yeah, I got a buddy, that's he just listed a
line of four to seventy five from John or you
know it's an actual line baw. He put it on
Oklahoma Shooters for seven K. And I'm like, I know
that gun. I know where that gun came from. I
was there when you picked it up, and he had

(03:36:07):
paid like thirty five hundred bucks to have all the
conversion work done to it. And I'm like, and he'll
get it, like he'll get somebody will pay that for
it now if he just.

Speaker 3 (03:36:17):
Had it somewhere with a little more. I mean one's
up at Rock Island right now, a five hundred Nimrod
serial number two forty something so mid yeah, probably late
late nineties, early two thousands, maybe maybe a little newer,
but I mean it's one of his older ones, classic
barrel band gun, and I think it's going to hit

(03:36:42):
ten grand likely, Yeah, and we'll see. We'll find out
on August fifteenth, that's when the auction closes.

Speaker 2 (03:36:51):
Yeah, and with that, I am.

Speaker 3 (03:36:52):
I am getting this me too. Yeah, and I'm old, man.
It's my bedtime, you know what. Nobody's telling me to
come to bed. I need to go to bed. I'm old.

Speaker 2 (03:37:04):
They're not that much over media.

Speaker 12 (03:37:06):
I qualified for I qualified for Social Security this year.

Speaker 2 (03:37:10):
It's old.

Speaker 5 (03:37:10):
I am man. I can't wait.

Speaker 3 (03:37:12):
I've paid enough in to it.

Speaker 5 (03:37:14):
Pray.

Speaker 12 (03:37:18):
I don't care about the penalties. I'm getting what I
can get.

Speaker 2 (03:37:20):
So I am indeed well fellas good good, in the
words of the the ever famous Lou Guys Now, good talk.

Speaker 3 (03:37:31):
Spencer, thank you for staying on, because, frankly, not a
lot of gun people want to hear this ship anymore. Yeah, well,
all the gun people want to hear it. The people
that think they're gun people don't.

Speaker 2 (03:37:43):
Best extra thirty minutes. Thank you, Spencer. I'll send that
VENMO to you later.

Speaker 3 (03:37:49):
Awesome. All right, thank you everyone. We'll do it again.

Speaker 12 (03:37:53):
Thank your body.

Speaker 3 (03:37:54):
Bye.

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P&S ModCast 435 - The Versatility of 45 Colt

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