P&S ModCast 436 - Ammo Selection and Zeroing Part 2 - Primary & Secondary Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yes, you should one hundred percent be able to duplicate
what you get out of the ransom rest. So you
telling me you outshot It is just the difference of
this eight rounds to this eight rounds. If I did
thirty two rounds, I might have been able to beat you.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
You know you.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
If you can't shoot what the ransom rest does, we
didn't do our job, do you hear me? So some
people say I can out shoot the ransom rests, I
highly doubt it. But at the end of the day,
if you can't shoot the same or equal to the
ransom rest, we did do our job. Because everybody on
right now should be listening. A machine shot is useless

(00:41):
if not duplicatable to the end user.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Now whole overall.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
Talking about a machine shot, we were talking about the
quality of the chronographs. It's useless if it's not needed
data or duplicatable penetration. And we want to duplicate the
human hold fire and recoil like the human hold fire
and recoil. That's why the machine recoil like this. And
so you should a good shooter. Now you get the extreme.

(01:05):
And I love the guy and maybe I should mention him.
He was on the radio here not that long ago,
and we're gonna see him, Brian at the pat Rogers
Revolver round up. And I will go ahead and mention
his name, Hiccock forty five. I believe he's gonna be
at the Revolver round up. I love the guy, but
he on video. He has a video accuracy. And why

(01:26):
should I ever shoot my gun out of a ransom rest?
What I need to do is learn how to shoot
the gun. Well, wait, what he's not wrong in the philosophy.
The guns are more accurate than I am. Ammo's more
accurate than I am, and so what you need to
do is learn how to shoot the gun. The guns
and Ammo's more accurate than I am. Just learn how
to shoot the gun. That's a bad flock.

Speaker 3 (01:46):
Go ahead, I'm going to qualify. I didn't out shoot
the ransom rest. I outshot the gun in the ransom
rash in the ransom yeah, gotcha, because the ransom rest
was doing everything it.

Speaker 4 (01:59):
Was supposed to do. The gun was not.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
But my I was able to correct for what the
gun was not doing in the ransom rest, and it was.

Speaker 4 (02:10):
And the whole reason that came up there was a
famous gun writer.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
I won't mention his name, but uh, but he does
a lot of expert witness work that wrote an article
that said, well, I can out shoot the ransom rest.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
I know who he is.

Speaker 4 (02:27):
Yeah, you know, you know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
I'd love to mention his name myself. But at one
point Joan Ransall put money down. She put like ten
thousand dollars down for him to come out shoot it,
and he didn't show up. He would show up, very
well known shooter, very well known guy, and great shooter.

Speaker 3 (02:43):
But yeah, what I figured out was he was shooting
clapped Out nineteen eleven. So I went and grabbed it
clapped Out nineteen eleven, and I went, hey, if the
gun is not precisely at least reasonably fitted, I was
able to make some psyche corrections that I couldn't do. Sure, Hey,

(03:04):
but yeah I wanted it, Matt, Can I change gears?

Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (03:12):
I got to ask a question because I got about
twenty more minutes and then the wife's gonna like pull
the yankeous cord here, Steve not Amo, Steve other Steve
other Steve that I will never get on an airplane
with Steve your side note I hate flying and this

(03:34):
yea who sent me a picture of a guy in
a plane that crashed right before I got on a
plane the shot show.

Speaker 4 (03:40):
Thanks for that. It still hots me obviously.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
Why why that load to sixty five at mock Jesus,
there you go.

Speaker 5 (03:55):
Most of the forty four magloads that I have used
for deer hunting over the years have done nothing but
punch holes there. The velocity wasn't there to give them
any kinds of what I would consider, you know, talternal performance,
expansion of the bullet to make use of the bullet

(04:16):
going from forty four to forty seven, right, whatever the
case is, I like a little bit more speed with
the bullet depending on the bullet construction for expansion. What
I would get it, really to call it would be
terminal performance in the animals that I'm hunting, right that
I'm shooting while I'd kill a lot of deer with

(04:38):
a lot of flatnose and hollow point forty four over
the years, and they've done regionally well pistols and levers
and bulk guns. I found that when I used to
handload this load in my Super Red Hawk Hunter way
back in the day, right and before warned, this is
a rifle load, not a revolver load.

Speaker 4 (04:54):
I'll just caveat that one hundred percent.

Speaker 5 (04:57):
With that that most the rounds that I have shot
over the past fourteen years have either because of distance
as well, which is the key factor. Right last year,
I shot one hundred and fifty pound white tailed dough
at about twenty seven yards crossed out whack lever gun
and through and through the lungs.

Speaker 4 (05:19):
I'm like, it's not supposed to do.

Speaker 5 (05:21):
That, like, so for me, a lot of it is
varying ations in distant size of animals as well. And truthfully,
like even over the past one hundred years of hunting
with rifles and other calibers, I have now segued back
to big chunks of semi jacketed lead in three O
eight forty five to seventy forty four mags three fifty seven.

(05:45):
Like my number one deer hunting load in my rossy
three fifty seven mag is a one to fifty.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Eight American Eagle.

Speaker 5 (05:53):
Yeah, and I have stone deer better than a door
nail out to seventy five yards at that round with
a single run fire. And I'm like, granted, I'm also
a high shoulder shooter, so I drop things a lot.

Speaker 4 (06:04):
I also shoot a lot.

Speaker 5 (06:05):
Of stuff double lungs right, because there's times I want
to see what bullets do, so I get to pick
and choose at times the amount of deer I'm allowed
to shoot every year in this state, which is ridiculous,
but I wanted something that was going to take a
standard forty four load. The bullet is actually from the
four to forty four Marlin YEP, which has a really
good threshold for its ability to hold together, penetrate and

(06:27):
expand in that round, because I think the forty four Marlin,
the four forty four Marl and something like twenty two
hundred twenty three hundred few per second. I can't remember
off the top of my head right now because I
don't shoot one anymore. But I wanted a round using
that bullet that was going to hold together well at
numbers and be able to be pushed, because most of
the rounds that we're shooting now that I've chronoed in
forty four out of the lever gun even have been

(06:49):
fifteen hundred and fifteen to fifty with bullets in the
two seventy five range like the Hammer download which is
a good bullet, but the velocity is weak, and every
time I've got up to the deer it's been a
poke holl through.

Speaker 4 (07:02):
I wanted more.

Speaker 5 (07:04):
I wanted more expansion out of around with penetration. And
that's the bullet that's shooting an inch and a half
at one hundred yards for me out of my gun
that I'm going that's well within the parameters for shooting
white tails. Guys like, it's got to be some minute.
I'm like, stop it. It's a forty four caliber projectile
being thrown at a distance, you know, not designed quote

(07:25):
unquote for what it's for, right, Like if I was
shooting at two seventy or whatever caliber. Right, it's a
flying ash tray. It's a flying wheel cap, and so
there is things suggest that that, right, you know, there
are things that matter with these projectiles. And this is
when I talk to Steve about I'm like, listen, if
you can find at two sixty five bullet, I'll buy

(07:45):
it because that will be the load that I am
going to run out of my lever guns and out
of my Ruger seventy seven bolt guns for the next
ten years if I lived that long. Sure, right for
my deer guns between that and my forty five, seventy
and a four to fifty bush Master, which are my
primary hunting guns in this outside of a three to
eight that I grabbed one n because I've got a
good clearing or opening to hunt in man, I just

(08:06):
want a good semi jacketed lead bullet to do its job.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
I don't need fancies. I've killed deer with TSX.

Speaker 5 (08:13):
I've killed them with every other magical ballistic tip round
there is, and I've had a lot of failures even
with the hornity FTX bullets over the years on animals.
It is a horrible, horrible bullet and I know, guys
will I've killed one hundred deer with that thing. Cool story, bro.
I went to a place and did a call hunt
where I had three days to kill as many deer
as I could, and I got real creative.

Speaker 4 (08:35):
Over the time.

Speaker 5 (08:36):
That FTX bullet needs to be pushed faster if it's
going to do anything well with that little ballistic plastic tip.
But going back to it, even talking to some buddies,
and one of them who I tried to get here
works for a major AMMO manufacturer who hunts Africa at
least twice a year. He's like, you know what, man,
he goes. We went back to shooting big chunks of
lead jacket of bullets outside of dangers game.

Speaker 4 (08:59):
That goes, he goes, and we.

Speaker 5 (09:00):
Killed stuff like we killed them like the Department. And
while I loved Barnes bullets, they're great, They're accurate, they
do a good job. Sometimes they need a little bit
more depending the caliber, right, but they hold together well
and they do a good job.

Speaker 3 (09:13):
I've had good luck with the solid copper bullets when
I pushed them above Hodgten's published.

Speaker 4 (09:20):
Data bingo the uh. But no, I was curious because
you know Steve Amo.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
Steve contacted me about the same time that he contacted you. Hey,
I'm gonna load this four forty four Marlin, And I
was like, Hey, you're gonna have the market corner because
like the sixteen dudes that still shoot that cartridge are.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
Gonna love it, are gonna flock to you.

Speaker 5 (09:44):
However popular up here.

Speaker 3 (09:46):
However, I was like, hey, man, if you take that
three hundred XTP and you give me ten to fifty
out of a four inch gun, yeah, I'm hell on wheels,
because out of a six inch gun, I'm getting eleven
fifty out of a lever getting twelve fifty yeah.

Speaker 4 (10:02):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (10:02):
And then he sent me a package of the Yetti
load and I went, Holy piss. You made four forty
four Marlin in a forty four mag case.

Speaker 4 (10:12):
Better put a.

Speaker 3 (10:12):
Disclaimer on the box. But what I will say is
the three hundred XTP with a red dot. I shot
an inch in a quarter group off of Mike's steady rest.

Speaker 4 (10:29):
And then at it.

Speaker 3 (10:30):
But with the load that you crafted, I was holding
two inches yeah, which people people want submitute. And I go,
you know, for two hundred years, sub minute wasn't a thing.
But two inches and one hundred yards I'm like, that's

(10:52):
plenty kill zone for deer.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
And we're looking for repeatability as long as it that
and that's all we're looking for. And we still get
back to acceptable accuracy. Sure, I want three quarters one end, sure,
but it still boils down to acceptable accuracy. I have
guns or otherwise I don't want to have guns for that.
I have guns from little tuny groups, right.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
But what I have, but that's long range and that's
paper shooting.

Speaker 5 (11:18):
What is acceptable accuracy? What is acceptable accuracy for me?
For the size and availability of the game that I
am hunting, right, so you know what am I shooting
and where? And what is the what is the makeup
of the animal. The animals don't die. Animals don't die
from psychological kills. They die from They die from physiological
They're not like human beings to a degree that they run,

(11:41):
you shoot them, they run, you know, it's it's what
they or they die instantly.

Speaker 3 (11:44):
It's just what they do. I've seen a lot of
human beings do that too. Yeah, find them just like
you find deer. You're like, there's a drop all. The
only difference is they're not under a cedar tree. They're
buying an air conditioning HVAC unit, usually house or a lot.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah. Right, and that's a big thing.

Speaker 5 (12:01):
Right, I want I wanted a round that was going
to give me penetration expansion, A big hunk of bullet
lead moving, that's going to do its job and lead, right,
it expands, it does what it's supposed to do.

Speaker 4 (12:14):
It kills shit.

Speaker 5 (12:15):
And again, well, the gun is not the most accurate thing, right,
it's a lever action. It is accurate. But if I
can keep them inside of a ten ring on a
B eight at one hundred and fifty yards. Guess what
I've got. I've got meat on the table.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yeah, well it smatches out, you know, just a little lead,
just big flat freaking quarter. I mean, once it hits something.
We talked about, expansion. I mean that's what you want.
I saw, I saw a number of other you're not
talking fragmenting or otherwise. Now, this one's cool. This one

(12:48):
was actually a polymer case. What little plastic I know.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
But but I have a dear friend that's all into
the sharp trifles, the five seventy seven Schneiders, all the things.
He's got Baldwin sights on everything, and he has all
these old books from Buffalo hunters, right, and they were

(13:14):
all shooting solid lead through Buffalo at incredible distances, recovering
the bullet, melting it down, making another bullet. But when
I shot the two loads, like the load you spect
the load, I spector for a smith lever gun. Oh yeah,
I got ridiculous accuracy. But I had a lot of

(13:38):
trajectory factor at one hundred yard zero, whereas with your
load fifty year zero one hundred yard Yeah it was
it was negligible.

Speaker 5 (13:49):
Yeah, I like a maximum point blank zero for the
most part, and a lot of things that I'm shooting
animals right, because while I carry a rangefinder, while I
have distances generally marked on some of my normal farms,
there's times I go to a place and go, yeah.

Speaker 4 (14:00):
That looks right. You know, it's just what it is.

Speaker 5 (14:04):
But people seem to forget too right, Like when people
think back to the days.

Speaker 4 (14:07):
Of hunting in Africa.

Speaker 5 (14:08):
You known how many elephants were killed without six fives
sweet with a big lead bolo solid. Yeah, people failed
to read up on their history. But we need these
special magic bullets now. And while there are times and
I like extreme long range hunting at times with dudes
that are really proficient at it, and it's amazing to watch,
there's a lot of variables, right, But for me being

(14:30):
the average midwestern Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Nebraska deer hunting guide,
and while I have distance on some of these farms,
I choose to hunt other things right and for me
to get deer to come in at most of my spots,
like last year, I can tell you I only killed
two animals that were over one hundred and fifty yards
last year, but eighty eight yards into twenty five was

(14:53):
kind of my average realm of everything that I shot
last you know, actually almost in the past two seasons.
So I just wanted a big boet that would work
and having some dudes that I know that are really
competent hunters shooting different forty four magammo, you know, off
the shelf, bought ship going eh, just you know, we
poked a hole and we didn't have much blood. It
just poked up forty four caliber culture the animal through

(15:15):
the lungs. We found him a day later kind of
thing because of minimal blood tracking. All I get it.
I said, yeah, that's going to fix. I'm going to
fix that, right, I'm going to fix and Steve fixed
it right. And this is this, This should be the
round that this upcoming dear season that just crushes. I'll
tell you it does a great job on woodchucks, but

(15:35):
I will tell you that it is absolutely going to
be a crusher on white tails and I'm looking forward
to it.

Speaker 3 (15:42):
Well, the only the only differences I saw so this
is this will spin into a little more into the
rifle stuff. But so the round I kind of specked
was four inch ten fifty so.

Speaker 4 (15:58):
Out of the perfect out of the.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
Twelve inch or I'm sorry, sixteen inch lever gun. It
was doing about twelve to fifty thirteen hundred inch. I
had trajectory issues between fifty and one hundred, so which, okay,
I can compensate for that with the two sixty five
load that you spect. I put a fifty yard zero

(16:22):
up and I had almost to repeat zero, like plus
one inch at one hundred yards. Okay, fair enough, right.
The difference was the only difference in the two the one.
I wouldn't take a shot over seventy five to one
hundred yards the lever gun with yours one hundred and

(16:44):
fifty yards all day, all day, and my.

Speaker 4 (16:47):
Shoulder was sore after I shot yours stopped being a whimp.
Oh no, I dok about that.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
But I immediately called Steve.

Speaker 4 (16:58):
And I went, dude, you got to put a of
like a rifle.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
Unless it's super red Hawk or something, but contender, I
don't know, but I was just kind of curious to
get your your feedback on, like that's a two sixty
five at mock Jesus, and the other one is.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
Jesus seventeen fifty.

Speaker 3 (17:21):
Man, it's smoking, it was, and I shot it a Ransom,
a Ransom multical steady rest on the front with a
folded up rifle case on the back.

Speaker 4 (17:35):
And a garment chrono. Heck, yeah, I had it all
in my range bag. It was great.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
Wow, my eighteen.

Speaker 6 (17:43):
Ninety four Marlin forty four magnums got twenty inch burrow.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
I shot.

Speaker 6 (17:48):
I can't mention that velocity up and ree zero in
the gun zero, try to want to see what that
thing accuracy was. And I kept backing myself up and
I had one of them. I have those MGM Steele
Steve you're talking about, you know, because you're coming out
for you know some it's a full size silhouette three

(18:09):
eight stick. You know, they got a pretty good angle
on them. You know that thing walk back and smacked
on his face at seventy five yards right.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
So then I'm working on Brian's three hundred. Right, I'm back.

Speaker 6 (18:22):
So it does the same exact thing, because have your
bullet inertia. It's only running in a thousand. But the
thing rocks back, wham falls down again. It's like, oh,
there is some serious energy being spent on that round,
I'll tell you. And you're talking to guy, so Brian,
you're talking about having to put something your shoulder.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
I'man inch this thing up from like.

Speaker 6 (18:46):
Fifteen fifteen, fifty sixteen, I'm running seventeen seventeen twenty. I'm like, ah, man,
go to keep going back, going back in the same day.
Oh yeah, that Marl. I'm going to help my Marlin
holds this thing and it did it did well.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
I I will tell this quick story and then I'm
gonna have to bail. But your forty one mag load
Shane John, Oh, not mine too, but Shane John gun
rider for Spari Land and.

Speaker 4 (19:17):
A couple other people.

Speaker 3 (19:18):
This dude, like you look up cowboy in the dictionary,
There's there's him, and Shane is good people.

Speaker 4 (19:27):
Man.

Speaker 3 (19:27):
Well, he gets the flat top forty one ruger blued
the same day I get the stainless gun. And we're
texting back and forth and I go, yeah, I just
got some of the high desert, you know.

Speaker 4 (19:42):
Two ten.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
He goes, yeah, so did I. And immediately a competition happened.
Like we didn't have to say anything. It was just
like and he goes, what are you doing? I said, Oh,
I'm headed to eastern Oklahoma to shoot pigs. Well, I'm
gonna drive thirty minutes away and shoot white till tonight
and like nothing was said, but immediately we're like, who's

(20:05):
going to anchor the first thing with this? And like
forty five minutes later he sends me a picture of
West Texas Point Philly just decked with it.

Speaker 4 (20:14):
Oh big and uh, you know, out of the state.

Speaker 3 (20:18):
Like we were both at the range at the same time,
zero in them and so but it was just really
cool to be you know, hey, we both got the
same cartridge, the same gun, and now it's who can go.

Speaker 4 (20:31):
Kill something with it first? Oh yeah, and.

Speaker 3 (20:35):
Anyway that, but but then the three hundred and the
two sixty five forty four mag came around. I was like,
you can, let Yedi have all the deer with the
two sixty five something else.

Speaker 5 (20:49):
You know, dude's got to remember, right, I mean unequivocally,
like you don't you don't mess with the twelve gig slug.
You know, a big chunk of lead moving at a
good moderate rate pace. Man, We've killed so many deer
and hogs and other creatures of twelve gage slugs for years,
good old Foster style slugs at you know, fifteen sixteen

(21:09):
hundred feet per second with an ounce of lead. Man,
there's something to be said and.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
And you'll you'll actually get usable meat and usable game
out of instead.

Speaker 3 (21:18):
Of doesn't expand and tear up all the meat.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
It just tear up all the meat and shrapnel, frag
defrat whatever. Yeah, we started this conversation, Brian, you were
saying some of that old knowledge is still relevant today.
What they've been doing for years. Just lead out the end, flunk,
you know, and it goes back to acceptable accuracy. I

(21:43):
understand the lead doesn't have the ballistical efficiency when you
stretch it out and it doesn't fly so well.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
So he's got a nice job. Yeah, that's not his job.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
And so yeah, we polymer coated today powder coated, right.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
You know. And I love Mills. Mills has some coded
lead bullets. I love them.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
We test them on our site and uh great. And
it's an North American company, you know, like high desert ammunition,
and we got to support them. But you can't find
them as much, you know, just the lead out the end.
It's beautiful and coded bullet. I have the ballistical efficiency,
but it does his job.

Speaker 5 (22:23):
When I started, when I started in precision rifle, I
was still shooting molly coded bullets and barrels.

Speaker 4 (22:27):
Oh my god, he's laughing at me. Now going god,
you are old.

Speaker 5 (22:34):
Between three and weight and wait for it, seven stw
oh wow.

Speaker 4 (22:39):
So my I was shooting.

Speaker 3 (22:44):
Uh, I was hunting a lot at the time, and
I remember reading an article about molly coat. And my
granddad was an aircraft engine mechanic for like.

Speaker 4 (22:56):
FAA and some other and in the Air Force.

Speaker 3 (23:00):
And I said, they're using molly beddingham carbide, and he goes,
I got an old jar of it out there in
the garage, just dip some bullets in it, and we
were shooting three hundred or one hundred and eighty grain
molly coated three hundred mags and nobody told us it
would burn the barrels up in the Winchester seventy number

(23:22):
three sporters.

Speaker 4 (23:23):
Nobody mentioned that.

Speaker 3 (23:25):
But uh, but yeah, before I go, I just I'm
going to bail out here.

Speaker 4 (23:31):
But two things.

Speaker 3 (23:34):
One with the ransom multicl steady rest and high desert cartridge.
Pair that with a garment and I can take the
predictability and kind of put it in a real small
box with a handgun. Sorry, Steve, I still haven't tested
your thirty five Amington But about that, Yeah, that bag

(23:59):
of AMMO is right there. But but with those three factors,
like I can predictably go to the range with any
one of the revolvers that I own, and it the
accuracy factor comes down to me.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
But with your figure point of point of impact, you
know your velocity. The only thing you're lying is the penetration.
But you're relying on Steve to you know, help help
us know what eighteen or twenty two and you know,
I can.

Speaker 6 (24:34):
Be making up order tomorrow for one of those multi
caliber rests.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
But Brian, here's your here's your picture.

Speaker 4 (24:41):
Yeah, thanks for that, Yeah, Shane.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
Yeah, right on, Shane.

Speaker 4 (24:47):
Yeah, I love that guy. Man. He's one of my
one of my favorite people.

Speaker 3 (24:51):
But the nice thing is just the ability to go
if I have high desert AMMO and it really doesn't
matter what caliber, it's so consistent, and I put it
on a multicw a Ransom multi cow rest and I
can I can take out a lot of the variables,

(25:12):
variables and and then I you know, you add the
garment or add your favorite chrono and you can start
to really see what you your AMMO and your gun
are capable of.

Speaker 4 (25:26):
So I really appreciate that about it.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
So the garment's the game changer. Now.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
I hate to say we pushed Labradar for years, but
oh I have a Labradar has a little l RX now.
But you know, for whatever reason, that garment is kind
of a plug and play set and forget.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
I don't know, man, but and.

Speaker 3 (25:46):
I'll say this, like today, I was out testing a
gun that's embargoed and the first thing I do is
I grab a stash of the high Desert dB load
High Desert thirty eight load because.

Speaker 4 (26:02):
I know, yeah, it's a three fifty seven.

Speaker 5 (26:07):
It's a new carry comp frame gun. It's okay, don't
worry about it. He's not allowed to tell.

Speaker 3 (26:11):
You no, no, no, it holds seven rounds and the
manufacturer may shock you, but no it won't.

Speaker 7 (26:18):
But it's.

Speaker 4 (26:23):
It's Gursan or Saar.

Speaker 3 (26:27):
But I put those two together, and I know, going
to the range, the only factor in that is how
steady I.

Speaker 4 (26:33):
Can hold that on the multi col rest. So uh
so that's for me.

Speaker 3 (26:38):
It's been a game changer for doing reviews and things
like that that I don't worry about the AMMO and
I've got a good rest. I've got a good Prano
and I can get in and out of an indoor
range before I get degled sore A.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
Oh yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt, but that this is
all about. That will save you, AMMO. It helps you
dial in your sites, your red dotter otherwise everybody's about
red dot. But having a good test form platform will
save your AMMO. It answers that question, is that you
the handgun, you know, having that repeatable and as we

(27:17):
talked about the multicl you know, proper stance. But it'll
save you, AMMO. And it builds that confidence. That's what
we're all about because really our life depends on it
and you need to have that confidence, you know, even
you know, especially if we're if the odds are stacked
against us, If you have that confidence, you can get

(27:37):
the job done. And that's what the Ransom rest and
that's what Chuck Ransom always pushed to. It will give
you that confidence in your gear and your equipment, and
to test it, run it through its paces. No, it
will feed whether it's your training AMMO, your defensive AMMO.
You know, take it through the rains, run it through.
When I was talking to Mark freaky fricky. It's all

(28:00):
about testing what you run. He was testing all those
speedloaders and freezing on them, and you know for the revolvers,
and you know you got you gotta test your equipment, man,
and don't find after the after the fight, like you
guys you two were talking about it didn't expand didn't
do his job work with reputable companies, people who care

(28:20):
what made this country great.

Speaker 3 (28:22):
You know, well, go ahead, because of your multicasteady rest.
There are a couple of handguns that I own that
I won't hesitate to make a seventy seventy five plus
yard shot with.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
There you go, so.

Speaker 3 (28:37):
Because the AMMO and gun combo is capable. It's just
how are my eyes doing that day? But anyway, Matt,
you were saying before I.

Speaker 8 (28:46):
Go, before you go, plugs you can be found at
fudex dot com.

Speaker 4 (28:51):
Fudex.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
Yeah, Darryl and I are having fun with your new
uh what is this stream yard?

Speaker 4 (28:57):
Yeah? Last last week it was does amish things and
amish curious. But to X and we joke about it.

Speaker 3 (29:07):
We're fuds and he's he's year one Gen X and
I'm the last year Gen X or we're fut X.
There'll be a patch coming from Nancy Stevens at some point,
I'm sure.

Speaker 4 (29:17):
Uh, but.

Speaker 3 (29:20):
Yeah, so American Fighting Revolver dot com. And we don't
do people think, oh, it's just all these high end
collectibles that I can't afford. We do normal guns, we
do taurusts, we do Ruger Cole new production, old production. Uh,
and we go kind of put these things through their

(29:41):
paces or teach people how to identify what they're looking
at in revolvers and consequently, uh, some of the sales
data I saw at NRA on revolvers factoring new and
used revolvers.

Speaker 4 (29:59):
We're in a revolver renaissance.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
And I think, you know, in the in the modern
training world of nine millimeters five five six, three oh
eight things six five grade more. Uh, there's been a
saturation for a while and some of those people are
starting to go, Okay, I saw that, what's this thing
with like wood on it?

Speaker 2 (30:24):
You know?

Speaker 3 (30:25):
So so we're having we're having some we're having some
weak success.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
We are seeing a renaissance.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
But I want to caution and I'm sorry about this,
and no sorry, maybe this is my conspiracy theories or whatever,
but we're seeing a renaissance, but they're just jumping on
the bandwagon. They're seeing cells their marketing, they're selling. I've
said this multiple times. We buy a cells, we buy
a commercial, and Ransom was big on that. You don't
buy a commercial, you buy a product. Yeah, sometimes that's

(30:55):
why you may not people watch your listening right now
may not know ran some rest because it's been marketed.
There's been so many imitation people who have come along
making imitations of our rifle rest invented patented by Chuck Ransom,
our handgun rest our, multi gun whatever, that they buy

(31:15):
a commercial and they sell a commercial, and so you're
going to get a lot of gun manufacturers that jump
on this commercial. And I appreciate you plugging AFR. But
one thing I want to mention about Mark and Brian
and dB Bow and the reason I go to gun
site is because these people know they've been there, they've
used it. They run it primary secondary, you know, right,

(31:38):
it's about what you run primary, what you run secondary,
and your life depends on it. I don't want to
go to the range and train and learn from people
who's just regurgitating things that they've learned on YouTube or
Facebook or you know that they learn themselves from taking
a gun sit class. I want to know people like
Mark who his life depended on what was in his pocket,

(32:00):
served and protected this great town that I live in,
you know, And and people like you, Brian, your life
dependent on it, you know, you know John Stinkowitz out
there at Compass, Uh, his life dependent on it, you know,
and people who I hate to say it, but who's
had a body.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
On that gun and know why they do what they do.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
So I appreciate it, Brian, and plugging all the latest
and greatest, but I want to know what you depend on,
like the old you know, the Mottel thirty six, the
old detective.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
Spectrum, you know, all those.

Speaker 4 (32:32):
You know why.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
That's why I go to you know, listen to you
and Chuck and brought you know, Mark, because that's what
it's about. You know, Steve who just dropped out of
the you know, honey, you know.

Speaker 4 (32:45):
He's getting a bourbon.

Speaker 3 (32:46):
But I can tell you this, every gun, literally every
gun I carry, before it gets put in my holster,
it gets shot over a ransom mold cal steady rest
with high desert ammo.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
Right.

Speaker 4 (33:05):
And this is not the shameless plug I don't care.

Speaker 3 (33:09):
You can call me a shell, thank you, Because those
two factors right there, I can take me out of
the equation, and I can take the AMMO out of
the equation right like, I can see what that'll do.

Speaker 4 (33:24):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (33:25):
I cite in every single rifle, every single handgun I
use over a MULTICL steady rest. Now the back of
the rest might be different, yeah, but the front of
the gun goes over a multi cal steady rest, and
the bulk of the guns, I feed them high desert
AMMO because it it is the most consistent AMMO I've found.

Speaker 4 (33:50):
H Granted, I'm a handloader.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
Sometimes I'll go, well, Steve doesn't make a cast this,
so I'm gonna.

Speaker 4 (33:57):
Shoot a cat. I'm gonna play with this.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
But the reality is when I'm when I'm citing in
for zero, it's got a MULTICL steady rest in the front,
Steve shields AMMO in the tube or high desert cartridge
in the tube, and that goes to my carry guns.
That that's everything now, because it's the easy button, it

(34:23):
takes all the other factors away. So anyway, and then
when I'm doing gunsmith work on Smith and Wesson and
Ruger revolvers. They're on a ransom Master mat because.

Speaker 4 (34:38):
My parts don't roll away. It's amazing.

Speaker 3 (34:41):
So and I'm dare I say I'm kissing your ass.
I'm not because I legitimately use this stuff every single
day now. So and we appreciate the support with a
f R and all that, I will say this, I'm
going to break down a little marketing data. Twenty one

(35:03):
to thirty five revolvers are cool and new. Thirty five
to fifty we're Gwatt. It's all still ars and you know,
nineteen eleven's.

Speaker 7 (35:17):
And M nine and elevens.

Speaker 3 (35:20):
From about fifty to in the grave, we're starting to
figure out revolvers that we grew up.

Speaker 4 (35:26):
On are cool again.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:28):
So for those of you guys that are like g
Watt dudes and uber tactical guys, dip your toe in
the water because if it's not your primary, it's.

Speaker 4 (35:39):
A really good secondary. Dude. You should coin that I
was on the fly Man that was on the f Yeah,
revolvers stickers next week.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
Yeah, if you're if your revolver's not a primary, makes
a great secondary.

Speaker 7 (36:03):
And Steve's phone died.

Speaker 4 (36:05):
So yeah I did, but Steve Mark Fricky Mike. Mike
hoped hope to see a revolve.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
Around up this year. Same same with Ammo, Steve Mark.
I know we'll be there because by Brian, you know so.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
Uh, Mark's the man, of course he'll be there. Uh.

Speaker 4 (36:25):
Final plug. We only have eight seats left.

Speaker 3 (36:29):
To Revolver Fest on the Nest Coast and when I
when I contacted Gunsight the other day, they had like
four seats left of the pat Rogers event, but they
will take standbys revolver Fest when it sold out.

Speaker 4 (36:42):
It sold out. So all right, dudes, cool.

Speaker 7 (36:47):
Well, thanks bye Brian, Thanks Ryan, see you soon.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
Love your stuff man.

Speaker 8 (36:54):
So some questions came up from the live chat that
still kind of fit in the whole handgun thing. First
one is is there ever a time or context when
one would want a full metal jacket over a controlled expansion,
hollowpoint or similar.

Speaker 7 (37:13):
I'll just leave that to you guys to field.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
That was before I came on.

Speaker 1 (37:17):
I think yeah, I would say absolutely if you're at
the range.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
But in a.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
Defensive context that's a hard one.

Speaker 4 (37:28):
Now.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
Don't tell anybody, but there's times I carry a full
metal jacket as a defensive round just because that's what
I have, That's what I've trained with, That's what is
my gun. Is it humane solitary? Probably not.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
I would definitely look for a hollow point, the.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
Next TP, an HST, something in the same power factor
feed ramp to test on. I would recommend it. I
still lean towards the wadcutters ALLO points. You're much better off.
The test is there, the results are there. You plugged

(38:08):
sponsor Lucky Gunner. I would definitely refer back to Lucky Gunner.
And but one thing keep in mind is barrel lanks,
expansion feed wrapps. No barrel is the same. I'm sorry
they're not. And if you're not testing your guessing he
plugged a multi coal, that's great. Ransom Rests might go
to as far as removing the human error out of it. Test,

(38:32):
make sure it feeds in, make sure it cycles. I
run an FMJ at the range because I'm looking at impact,
best shot group money, right, how much money I'm going
to shell out? I don't want to shoot allow points
at the right mark. Do we want to shoot all
the points at the range?

Speaker 2 (38:51):
Expensive? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (38:53):
So I run an FMJ all day long, all day long,
and you want to know if you want the flat
nose or the you know round now whatever, run it
through your gun. If you're not testing your guessing. If
it was a science, you go down and find glock
seventeen m. It's not a science, and I'm sorry. There's
sometimes we'll test here. Here's for instance, we did a
Prodigy test which from HSD Federal HSD Inchine seven eights.

(39:15):
The videos up online Inchine seven eights at fifty yards
in a master series rest okay, shooting as we talked about,
through three layers fifteen, twenty five and fifty and the
fifty yard was an inch and seven eights. It has
went through three layers of paper and I got an
echine seven eights, eight rounds and fifty yards. It's phenomenal.

(39:35):
At any point I can drop the fifteen and twenty
five and verify my repeatability a small sample group. I
only had eight rounds. Okay, let's average that. Back in
the revolver days, it was three groups of six, you know,
and that's eighteen rounds. So I do eight rounds. I'll
do two groups of eight rounds, which is sixteen. Okay,
it's close enough to eighteen, right, three groups of six.

(39:58):
That was the standard back in the day, three groups
of six and eighteen rounds and you average it and
that would give you a reasonable expectation of what your
gun would do. Only do eight rounds just for video,
just for Sinan again, so you would know what to
expect out of your gun or how to test in
a Ransom Rest Master Series Rest Engine seven h HST

(40:23):
Federal HSD. They make good stuff, you know. Tested the
same Sorry, a different Prodigy, same gun model, a different Prodigy.
It was three inch at fifty yards, different serial number.
It was built on a Friday, the other one was
on a Monday. Who the hell knows, I don't know.

(40:43):
But the point is is if you're not testing, your
guessing and go test your gun. Surprisingly, the Spear Gold
Dot CCI did well, and I'm sorry Steve. In the
High Desert, I have his thirty eight special, his three
fifty seven. I run a Reman and I use it
for the range. I need to get out and plug
his through the Ransom Rest more and check that repeatability

(41:07):
in the machines. And what I always say is we
love all am not all AMMO may like us. I
like all guns, all guns may not like us. And
some people my guns all this and my ammo's this.
You know, at the end of the day, I'll take
your gun and I'll beat it with a high point.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
I'm sorry, but sometimes I will.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
And you know, accuracy, repeatability, you know, it's it's all
about that. So if you're not testing your guessing and
I can get a high point to drive good tax,
will it be dependable? Is it reliable? Is it that's
a whole different discussion. But we're talking acressy and repeatabily.
What feeds through your gun? Question here? That about the FMJ.

(41:48):
If you could slow it down and Mark, Mark, you
hit it the other night on those forty five the
shape of the bullet, you don't need a whole lot
of velocity, right, And so they're usually shoving it full velocity,
and that's what everybody's afraid of. But just slow it
down to where it's gonna stay inside whatever you want

(42:09):
to stay in side with. You don't need as much
velocity to do that, right, And so I would say,
depends on the application. FMJ and a car door, fine,
but how often are you going to need that for
a card door? You know you have hsts and halo points.
Xtps will go through windshield glass. In fact, I do.

Speaker 6 (42:30):
I've got a Firearms Training company service training group, and
we do a vehicle tactics class, and we do a
lot of ballistic testing through vehicles what they can and
can't do, deviation through windshields, et cetera. And I haven't
seen a whole lot that won't go through windshield anymore,
you know, reliably and do the job. FMJ is a

(42:51):
little different with that rounded nose. It tends to want
to deviate a little more than maybe a holowpoint, but
that again depends on the makeup of the halowpoint. But FMJ,
if you can slow it down, you don't an fm JAY.
Like Mark said the other night, bullet shape, you don't
need all that velocity, all that Mark elaborate on.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
That on fmj's for defensive use.

Speaker 9 (43:17):
If you look from a snubby point of view, there
are not many halo points that expand reliablely out of
a two inch barrel. Steve just talked about his new load,
and I just saw it. I haven't gott an heavy yet,
but I'm going to get some and test it. But
most of the time we found, like the spear short
barrow load, at least two four layers of denim out
of a wedding barrel just doesn't expand.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
I don't know what the deal is with it, but
it doesn't think.

Speaker 9 (43:44):
I think it doesn't quite meet that threshold velocity that
you need to expand reliablely and get the penetration.

Speaker 2 (43:51):
You get penetration, boy, don't get expansion.

Speaker 9 (43:53):
Bear jail looks like a plastic Take a picture of
it for an AD. Now, I say, see, you've got
some new one to forty range stuff I just saw
yesterday and looking forward to testing that that snubby. But
at eight thirty eight fifty feet per second range out
of an airweight gun.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
That might be a little bit, a little bit punishing
depending on.

Speaker 9 (44:15):
The stocks you've got. And that's what you look at too.
What's your gun, what's your skill ability? What can you
do with what loads you have in the gun? And
the one that I proposed on showbase because you usually
have them in the six hundred and fifty to seven
hundred fifty range and they penetrate well, they cut the tissue,

(44:37):
they don't abuse your hand, and you can control them.
You know, people say, well, I shoot three of these
have a magnum in my little j frame. Fine, we'll
do do a test. Can you put five rounds in
five seconds in a five innuce circle? And I will
challenge anybody to do that. I haven't seen anybody yet
do it. I'm waiting for a video. Show me, show
me who you're doing that with a full house three

(44:58):
seven load, that you're firing a J frame in five Yeah,
exactly that.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
I've always said I thought to do that J frame
ought to be slapped. Really, you're right.

Speaker 9 (45:12):
Yeah, I fired him to a jay to a steel
jframe and that hurt. I will never fire one through
the airweight jframe. Never because I like my hand. And
I've had buddy who was shot at five rounds of
one twenty five Federal through a airweight jframe. He still
has issues with his hand where he has nerve damage
in the webbing of his hand from just five rounds.

(45:34):
And so these guys that say they do this all
the time, I'll ask you, show me a video.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
Do a video of you showing that load.

Speaker 9 (45:42):
Find five round to that load, whatever you want to
do in that five in circle. So controllability is a
big deal. We've this year at through Roundup, We're going
to do a lot of full metal jacket loads. One
of the things we did in last year we did
the one to fifty eighth grain Semon Watch to a
Hall of Point current Remington load and we found that

(46:04):
it worked very well even out of a Winner Saving
Nation barrel, which I was very impressed with. They did
pretty well with it, but out of a five inches
barrel through the same formulaver as Venim, it didn't expand
and penetrated very deep and you go didn't expand at all.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
So it just depends on the bumlet.

Speaker 4 (46:22):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
I'm I'm still I'm still a one cutter fan, and.

Speaker 9 (46:26):
I have found a holmet points that I want to
rely on for a snubby now out of my autos
gold Dot HST. Yeah, absolutely carry those any day of
the week and would be very reliable for defending myself
with it. But in a nine millimeter, but in a
revolver a little snubby, I'll stay with the water cutters.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
There you go, There you go.

Speaker 8 (46:47):
Now a following question, I've tested G nine pretty extensively.

Speaker 7 (46:54):
Comparing it to our gold Dot load.

Speaker 8 (46:57):
It is way more consistent on penetration despite the barrier
when compared to Gold Dot.

Speaker 7 (47:02):
Do you all have experience with it.

Speaker 6 (47:04):
I don't think you're looking at apples and oranges. Yeah,
on that one. I got a G nine here, which.

Speaker 8 (47:12):
And there's so much hype, and some of this hype
also is highlighting ballistic jail testing with where they're coming
up with these conclusions that are not accurate. It is
not creating all this this this wounded when it's physically impossible.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
Yeah, it's about two months ago. I got invited to
actually go to the factory older in Idaho, and I
was taught before I went.

Speaker 6 (47:39):
I know that Chuck Haggard had some experience with them,
and he'd mentioned he'd been somewhere and went by the
booth and the people are talking about how it liquifies
things and as it goes through the you know, and
the guy and the owner of the place mentioned that
I'm just cringing in there. They're using a roast beef,
you know, injected whatever there. All the FBI tests are

(48:00):
about expansion and nothing talks about penetration, and they have
you know, external hollow points and whatever. But with G nine,
you can't compare that to a gold dot because they're
like a lehigh or whatever.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
They're a solid, a solid copper bowl, right, apples, and yes,
they're going to penetrate.

Speaker 6 (48:19):
You know, when I did my last year, I did
the the vehicle tactics class and I had people shooting.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
I had vehicles out there.

Speaker 6 (48:27):
One was a tahoe from early two thousands. And these
bullets will do really well on penetrating car doors and
heavy stuff. But that's what they do, coordinating Doc Roberts.
They poke holes. That's all they do is poke.

Speaker 4 (48:42):
All they do.

Speaker 6 (48:43):
You're not going to have any extra wounding or blah
blah blah whatever. I have jail tested these things and
people say, well, yeah, we'll look at that.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
That temporary cavity. I'm going that's temporary.

Speaker 6 (48:58):
Very few pistol bullets have the power to effectively rip
anything during the temporary cavity action. As it goes in,
it opens up and it comes back and that's the
end of it, you know, over with. But yeah, you're
you're mixing, you're mixing apples and orange. This is a solid,
solid copper bullet. Lee High's I can't remember. So there's

(49:19):
a few, two or three, four of them on the market. Now,
they all got the name. They all do the same thing.
They just pull holes. Now if you'r thing is if
you need to get through a card over or something.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 8 (49:32):
That being said, though, if you happen to live in
an area where hollow points are illegal, this might be
a viable option.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
I might choose that over a if you slow it
down enough.

Speaker 6 (49:45):
This one's looping at it eleven and it it'll blow
to block.

Speaker 8 (49:51):
Yeah, folks. Yeah, my conversations with Gary Roberts about it.
He was talking about with these fluted solids, that's just
adding a dish surface area, which in turn is slowing down.
It's creating that resistance to control the penetration. But that
is not creating creator trauma trauma.

Speaker 2 (50:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is kind of flat. It's kind
of flat. So let's acting someone like a pointed wad
cutter in a sense.

Speaker 6 (50:22):
But it's you know, almost twice the speed of what
you need, yeah, cutter thing. And so we've got excessive
recoil and blast and it's like is it worth it?

Speaker 2 (50:32):
No? Plus the price of these things?

Speaker 8 (50:34):
Holy yeah, people are stealing copper.

Speaker 7 (50:40):
They're gonna these bullets.

Speaker 8 (50:42):
Now, what if you had.

Speaker 6 (50:44):
These thirty seven bucks for it's rare earth metal there
thirty seven bucks for twenty rounds. Yep, it's insane. It's
almost two bucks around now.

Speaker 8 (50:58):
Now what if you took one of those and slowed
it down to eight hundred nine hundred feet per second?

Speaker 2 (51:01):
Though?

Speaker 6 (51:04):
See there, I'm thinking you're looking at mars, you know,
like a wad cutter. You know it's plowing, it's got
the flat face on at least this design is.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
You put it down to what's seven hundred mark?

Speaker 6 (51:15):
Now you're getting almost got You got a solid core
wadcutter instead of a lead wadcutter.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
You know, it's plowing, it's whatever.

Speaker 6 (51:21):
It's going to get probably twenty three twenty five inches
of penetration and flat beating flat is eventually going to
stop itself. But running at twice of what a wadcutter
normally does. I'm just going it's gonna pull the hole.
If you talk about probably possible over penetration, well this
would be the one I would be worth concerned about.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
Here's here's the thing I don't think I know.

Speaker 9 (51:43):
I don't know of any shootings that I've seen and
studied where that bullet has been used in an actual shooting.
Everything everything I've heard about it has actually been just
blissing gel testing, and I mean I'll go from Black
Black Hills Honey Badger load to Lehigh's and G nine
and all those other loads. They're all just ballistic gel testing.

(52:05):
I don't know any actual shootings that recurs, so we
really don't have a lot of data. We do have
a lot of data with gold Dot on twenty four
good gold Dot and one forty Semigraen gold Dot have
had a lot of shooting results on the street and
we know those works and with hsts they work really well.
So I'm gonna hold Juriata on the G nines until

(52:27):
I see some results from it.

Speaker 2 (52:28):
But they are not a magic bullet.

Speaker 9 (52:30):
Everything I've seen from these screw type bullets, these Phillips
have screwed ever bullet type bullets, I have not seen anything.
I'm going to say I'm going to switch to those.
I just haven't seen it yet in any caliber. I
don't care what calibri is.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
And I think that still goes back to what we
started this conversation with is use what's tried and true
and has that data behind it. You don't want to
use the next latest and greatest thing you know and
then find out at the end of the day or
after the fact that didn't perform the way you wanted
it to. Yeah, I appreciate the marketing. I appreciate the
latest and greatest. And that's how innovation happens is we

(53:06):
come up with something and we keep trying and trying
and trying. But at the end of the day, when
you look at something like that G nine, there's other
stuff that does what it does and.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
More capable, and we've done for years.

Speaker 4 (53:19):
It might be.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Funny mission too.

Speaker 9 (53:20):
If you're going to need a penetrated body armor, I
know that G nine makes it low design de penetrated
body armor.

Speaker 2 (53:27):
I have a few rounds of it.

Speaker 9 (53:29):
I think it's a you know, define your mission and
will it be beat one twenty four green you know
NATO ball?

Speaker 2 (53:37):
Yeah, probably, I guess it has.

Speaker 9 (53:39):
It has probably more tissue damage, but again, you can't
tell tissue damage any pistol round. There's not been a
pistol around now yet that you can tell a significant amount.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
Of damage with correct penetration.

Speaker 4 (53:51):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
You know Gladier slaty slugs.

Speaker 9 (53:53):
I mean that was a big thing back in the
seventies and eighties and I actually bought off on it
for a while until I saw the penetration results of
it in actual testing.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
I went, this is not this is not the thing
I want to do.

Speaker 9 (54:06):
It's just not those pre fragmented bullets and chuck and
I decided that the revolve around up this year, we're
not shooting any of those type of loads because we've
tested those things over and over.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
We're not going to test them again. You know, whether
it's a mag safe.

Speaker 9 (54:21):
The of all the different names of all these like
a fifty grain copper holow point, all this stuff. We're
not testing him anymore because it's a waste of time.
It just tears up our gael for shell of penetration,
so we can't get accurate results. Any accomplishes nothing administration
a gel. It's a pretty good clue that I'm not
going to get into the heart.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
So I don't know. I'm just I'm just a good
solid guy.

Speaker 9 (54:48):
I think we've got a lot of good testing, a
lot of good results on stuff that's on the street.

Speaker 4 (54:51):
Now.

Speaker 9 (54:51):
There may be something new, but I just don't see
it coming up in the real future.

Speaker 8 (54:58):
Steve, a question came up for you, what's the benefit
of difference of your new Codd thirty eightlid base wadcutter
compared to your plated HOLLO based wadcutter.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
You asked me that.

Speaker 6 (55:13):
Too, that idea, what's the user It's like I had
people who just wanted a standard old fashioned wand cutter.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
Yep, they wanted lead, and I go and I don't
do lead.

Speaker 6 (55:26):
But misery bullet has that hard coating, and that hard
coating is like spray on bedliner. It's just hard and
it doesn't gum up my machines. It's like, Okay, I'm
going to do this and see where it goes. I
don't know if they got on the website yet.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
I'm trying.

Speaker 6 (55:40):
I'll get hopefully get it on there soon. But that
was the only thing I was looking for. Is just
now you have you know, because people are going, it's
play the wad cutter. It's got I don't know about that.
You know, it's it's a it's an unknown and I
understand that, and so I sent some of the market test, but.

Speaker 2 (55:59):
I just wanted to go back to an old fashioned
wall cutter.

Speaker 9 (56:02):
So let me let me address this. Some of you
may know, may not know. I'm writing a book on
wad cutters for defensive use. It's I thought it was
gonna be done a long time ago, but guys like
Steve keep coming up with new loads for me to test,
so I have to keep keep doing some testing. What
I found is it really doesn't matter the wad cutter bullet.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
The flat meat plant seem to do well.

Speaker 5 (56:27):
Now.

Speaker 9 (56:27):
Whether it's a sharp shoulder, it does look like a
custom more tissue on the entry it's a sharper shoulder,
sharper cutthole versus the plated which is more rounded watercutter
like double in one cutter or even Holli based wand cutter.
But the bottom line is I don't see a lot
of damage difference in the jail, and I think it's

(56:49):
probably both of them are well. I'm thinking about doing
a test your reached with my wad cutter test. I'm
showing the same weight bullet at the same making velocities.
It's like a one to fifty eight grain lead round
nose one grain semon one cutter and fidig wad cutter
full one cutter, and it shooting at the same velocities

(57:09):
with the same basically bearing surface on the bullets that
we will get consistency with it and see what penetrates.
What I found so far in this line and just
what's what brought me to this point was we're shooting
full metal jacket AMMO. We're shooting lead AMMO, and we're

(57:31):
shooting full wand cutters, and the wind cutters are penetrating
less more than adequate penetration we need, but not over
penetrating versus the utter loads at the same velossities. I'm
going to try a round nose bullet, a semi wand
cutter and a one cutter bullet of the same weight
with the exact same powder, with the exact same weight,
and see what the difference is in the velocity.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
But we had apples.

Speaker 9 (57:53):
Apples have basically the same bearing surface, so we get
the same velocities with it.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
And I think it's gonna be a good test flue
that with my book.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
So when when you do that, mark, I'd like to know,
and I'd like to see because when you talk about
the plated wadcutters versus just standard wadcutters or coated wadcutters,
and you mentioned taking the sharp edge off and the
plated it's no longer sharp because obviously the coding.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
On it and everything else.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
So typically that give you a little bit better ballistical
efficiency flight or otherwise right a drag or otherwise, And
so that's where the.

Speaker 2 (58:32):
Plated would come in.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
So I, you know, I'm interested in the penetration difference,
the velocity difference, but where I come into I want
to know the repeatability difference if I can gain a
little bit on that repeatability accuracy, which I would be
surprised if the plated did not give you a little

(58:53):
better repeatability at you know, twenty five or you know,
even a fifty yard where they standard rough edge outside
casting bumpy lead.

Speaker 9 (59:07):
You know well also throughout this that the plating also
makes a big difference. I tested an Everglade bullet which
is out of Florida, and it's a very nice looking
water cutter. I would compare it to a horned ay
looking wand cutter with a little cup inside of it
and a very sharp bench. We me I shed jackets

(59:30):
on it. I saw jacket shedding with that load, with
that planing.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
And it may be a thickness of planing, but the thickness.

Speaker 9 (59:36):
Planning also has an effect on that whether you're cutting
the rifling's cutting it and shedding it.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
That also makes an accuracy difference. So I don't know.

Speaker 9 (59:45):
I'm not just enough testing with this. I'm not sure
of it velocity differences. I found the same amount of
powder with a lead bullet that is cast and use
the standard lube. It is a little faster than a
plated bullet with the same variant surface, and I think

(01:00:08):
that you know that's also there'll be something, But I
think it is a really not a big deal. I mean,
I don't as long as the velocity is up there
sufficiently for get adequate penetration, I don't see a big
deal with the difference in penetration with it. But I
think it takes to get a maybe steeve you can
relate to that more powder to get the same velocities

(01:00:29):
than it does with a standard conventional lubricated lead bullet.

Speaker 6 (01:00:34):
Yeah, I noticed that when I was doing the my
thirty two magnum. I've got a hollow point in the
round nose flat point which is that coated bullet from Missouri.
And I actually had to download it because it was
flying away over top of that holow point velocity.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
And so I want it again. I wanted a training round.

Speaker 6 (01:00:54):
In the defensive round, and so to get that to
mark at the same spot on the target, I had
to download that that coated lead quite a few tents
of powder to get it to go at the same velocity.

Speaker 9 (01:01:10):
Now somebody also these understanding Steve gets powders and uses
powders that we as a commercial I'm sorry, a hobby
reloader cannot yet commercial reloader, and they have different powders
for them.

Speaker 6 (01:01:23):
I use a lot of industry powder, and one I
really like has the flask repressment and I most revolver
rounds have that in there.

Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
That's really nice.

Speaker 6 (01:01:31):
You can go out and pitch black on like a
night shooting with a revolver, and yeah, it's amazing. It's
almost like using a flask repressure something. You get some
spit but nothing. It is pretty black out there when
you're shooting a revolver with that stuff. It's pretty nice stuff.
But going back to the wad cutter, real quick mark

(01:01:55):
solid base versus hollow base, any performance difference.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
I haven't seen any so far, the hardy or anybody
flipping more.

Speaker 9 (01:02:09):
The hard cast stuff needs to penetrate a little bit
better the swage bullets, like most commercial manufacturers you like Winchester,
Remington and Federal needs a swage bullet. It seems to
be a little softer and as a result, it deforms
a little bit more than the hard cast stuff buzz.
But really, side by side there's not that much difference.

(01:02:30):
They all get adequate penetration and not really much over penetration. Okay,
they're very boring.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
It's not bad thing that comes out the thing. It's
the thing.

Speaker 6 (01:02:48):
I think people want something that's you know, it's like
exciting or whatever. It's like, yeah, I'm here to tell you, well, they.

Speaker 8 (01:02:56):
Really aren't terminal ballistics isn't It isn't exciting.

Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
It's just.

Speaker 9 (01:03:02):
Not with pistols. I mean, you know, you do rifle stuff. Yeah,
you get to a lot of more stuff. But with pistols,
like your member says, you poke holes. Yeah, and you
cut tissue and you cause hemorrhaging a great shock. And
that's that's what you know.

Speaker 6 (01:03:13):
I talked about that earlier about you know, I've got
all my all my velocities listed on the website and
people you know, get a hold of about you rifle
because I'm doing rifle rounds, I do lever guns, and
I'm doing hunting rounds for rifle on the website is
to not all having's on there.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
You never getten it there.

Speaker 6 (01:03:32):
And trying to make around. You can't make around for you.
You know, my test rifles I can make around. It's accurate.
I can go to the to the books or whatever,
and you know the most accurate round, you know, powder
combination tested or the industry powder whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:03:50):
That's all I can do.

Speaker 6 (01:03:51):
There's so many variables and rifles people want to you know,
well people you know, they go to the store and
get stuff off the shelf and remy X whatever doesn't
shoot well, my rifle I need to you know, the
Winchester or whatever, or the Hornity shoots, you know, so
me or any of those companies. In fact, all of
us companies are making rifle rounds. We're at the mercy

(01:04:12):
of whatever rifle you're using, and so you do the
best you can. But what I find, of course, sception
all the rules is if you I don't load to
the top end of the spectrum of velocity, whatever I tend,
they tend not to be as accurate. If I back
off and get something between like the upper third of

(01:04:34):
the velocity of a given load, like a let's say
that on my four forty four, Marlin, you know, we're
talking about, you know, talking about you know, twenty two
hundred whatever, I think, I load it to about nineteen
fifty or two, and out of my happen to make
my four forty four, it tends to be dead nuts
accurate and so and then I push it to the

(01:04:55):
twenty two hundred.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
It just seems to open up the group a little
bit more.

Speaker 6 (01:04:58):
And so I find that a lot with the hunting
rifle stuff, you know, I load for six five and
three hundred wind Meg and two seventy and even some
of the more obscure calibers.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
My favorite person is two fifty seven Robbers. I'm old,
but that's the way it is.

Speaker 6 (01:05:11):
And then six milimeters Remington, and you know, two forty
three is if I push the envelope with the velocities,
I don't have it, you know, I find that the
groups open up, and so trying to you just can't.
You just have to do the best you can, and
I don't really I have to be honest with you,
you know, and I think, you know, I don't have

(01:05:32):
I'm a one man band, so I don't have the
capacity like Federal or Winchester has developing loads where they
have a ballistics team that's able to go out and
test different whatevers.

Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
And design bullets. What's that They also are design bullets.
I mean they make their own. Yeah, okay, this is
the word. Let's go redesign this, let's go to it.
I don't have that.

Speaker 6 (01:05:53):
I have to get whatever's off the shelf and load it,
you know, whether it's a spear, a seer, or a
hornity whatever it is, and I try to get the
best I can for whatever I can for.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
You know, accuracy and velocities whatever.

Speaker 6 (01:06:06):
And I don't have you know, that time to go
test eight different kinds of bullets.

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
I just I don't have that. I mean, I'm being
dead honest here. And then.

Speaker 6 (01:06:17):
All the different all the different weights of bullets. I mean,
look at thirty out six alone, you know, one, ten,
up to two whatever's or you know, and then if
some of them mag is that you know you want
the one? You know, start two seventy, you want one,
thirty one, thirty five five. It's like I just got
to pick the nominal bullet weight, and I have a

(01:06:39):
couple of different test bed the two seventies. I got
a battery of people around here. I can get on
and call them and say, hey, you got a X whatever. Yeah,
I've got one, you know whatever. And I borrow rifles
and if I don't have them, so I've got a
test but to try things out, and that's all I
can do. And so that's all any manufacturer can do.
So in your autzer and your rifle, one doesn't zero. Okay,

(01:07:00):
well this doesn't like that animal. Maybe your gun, I
don't know, you know, check or scope it.

Speaker 9 (01:07:08):
Scope to scope mounts and all that stuff, and it
is not the gun. It's not yeah, all that scope.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:07:15):
One thing I you know, people buy like twenty two
two fifties, you know, speed kills. Everybody wants a lot
of velocity. Well, you put a twenty two to fifty,
it's max at four thousand feet a second. The barrel
is going to last what to twenty five hundred rounds
depending on the on the on the on the quality
of the barrel. You know, three thousand round maybe a
little more than that. A lot of people don't shoot

(01:07:38):
that much. But you get a good you know, you
get a hardcore armat shooter. They're gonna they're gonna do
that no matter, you know, not very much time. And
so I run my twenty two two fifties down about
thirty six with a fifty grain vmax and I find
that the you know.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
The prey on the difference, Yeah exactly.

Speaker 6 (01:08:00):
But when people ask me about, you know, going out
looking at twenty rifles, I said, get yourself a board scope.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
If not alone your mind, I.

Speaker 6 (01:08:07):
Said, check the throat on that thing, because that's the
first thing that's going to get shot out and your
accuracy is going to go. And it doesn't take long
to do it, depending on again the quality of the barrel,
and so the faster it goes. It's not always always good.
Obviously veloss. You need some velocity for reaching out there
and touching whatever you want to touch within a reason,
but it is also overdoing it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):
It's not going to last very long.

Speaker 4 (01:08:31):
So then.

Speaker 6 (01:08:35):
For rifle zeroing, it's you know, again choosing a load,
choosing a bullet weight, because you can go from say
a bullet weight of one depending on how accurate you
want to be, that could change everything. You're going to
have to either dope your scope or you're going to
have to make the quick adjustments.

Speaker 2 (01:08:56):
And a lot of variables there.

Speaker 6 (01:08:59):
And I think that that multi that multi rest that Michael,
that Mike Ransom has, you know, have something solid. Take
all of the human factor you can out of it.
That's the main thing. Use a ran you Ransom rest
of full the full deal there. Remove remove as many

(01:09:20):
variables as possible.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
All you're testing. So it's his acts about data. It's
all about data. Whether we're talking.

Speaker 6 (01:09:32):
Yeah, Fisher was talking about how much how much accuracy
do you need an inch inch and a half at whatever,
two inches or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
I tend to just.

Speaker 6 (01:09:41):
I do mind all one hundred yards, I mean twenty twelve, yeah,
twenty two to fifty whatever, or it's a little longer,
maybe a half inch, And the range I have in
my backyard is two undred yards. But I'm not going
to get into all this ballistic and scope stuff. I'm
sure you've had podcasts about that, Matt.

Speaker 4 (01:09:59):
I don't know.

Speaker 7 (01:10:00):
And we can always have a dedicated while also.

Speaker 8 (01:10:03):
But the dangerous thing about Steve talking right now is
it reminds me, ah, dang it. So I think I
just placed an order with you, either last night or today.
I just remembered I forget to order forty five to seventy.

Speaker 7 (01:10:18):
I guess I just have to buy some.

Speaker 8 (01:10:19):
So you guys were bringing up this with this zeroing thing.
What's this zeroing thing?

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
Zero anything?

Speaker 9 (01:10:29):
It's in the rifles or handguns where you're around, is
going to hit at a given distance.

Speaker 8 (01:10:36):
So have there been some tricks that you guys have
found that have helped you do that more efficiently, more effectively?

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
So rifled or handguns, yes, went first.

Speaker 8 (01:10:51):
Then handguns first, and then also Mark you brought up
specifically what about iron sighted non adjustable revolvers.

Speaker 9 (01:10:59):
Exactly, I've been I've been around revolvers since the seventies,
and you know, like the old model tams and guns
like the built or the official police and all that
had fixed sights and trying to hit the point of
a point of impact with various loads. Makes the difference
between that most of those smith West revolvers and the

(01:11:21):
revolvers were hearing around the one fifty eight grain lad
around those which about eight fifty eight to fifty five
feet per second to hit pointing any pointing back twenty
five yards. Well, and they incorporated super bell one tens
at you know, eleven hundred feet per second back in
the old days in about nine hundred pet per second.
In later days they had a different point of impact,

(01:11:44):
so you had to adjust us site.

Speaker 2 (01:11:45):
The sites for that usually.

Speaker 9 (01:11:47):
Held over to get point of a point of impact.
Or you had a Smith and Weston guy who knew
what load you're shooting, and he led babbitt to adjust
the sites for you. When I was a cop in Nebraska,
I went to a PPC match and my chief gave
me a revolver that an officer had hit a guy
in a head with.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
And had been the frame on the gun.

Speaker 9 (01:12:13):
So with not shooting a point of end point impact anymore,
he said, give this this Smith and Weston guy and
have him recited in I was a young guy.

Speaker 2 (01:12:21):
I didn't know anything about how this happened.

Speaker 9 (01:12:23):
So I take it to this guy with Smith and
Western armor and I said, so, my chief said, this
thing is not hitting where it's spoke to.

Speaker 2 (01:12:30):
He said, okay, So he shoots one round.

Speaker 9 (01:12:33):
He takes a lead Babbitt, which is a lead bar
about I don't know, maybe twelve eighteen ounce or something
in the air, and he takes his gun holding his
hand and WAPs the barrel with the with the lead
bar and he shoots them around. He WAPs it a
couple more times and it hits point of any point
of impact is here you go.

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):
And that's how they adjust the sites.

Speaker 9 (01:12:54):
Back in the seventies on a Smith and Western revolver
hit point of end point of impact once you bent
the frame on the gun, and that was the way
to do it. So that's one way grinding sites it
another way following the rear sight let it right, I
would do it was another way Smith and Wesson when

(01:13:15):
they went from the non pin barrel guns, we started
seeing the barrels being overtwisted in the frames. I have
sent back probably five revolvers, maybe six, I don't remember.
I have to count for sure that were shooting to
the right because the barrel was overtwisted in the frame
and with not hit any point of any point of impact.

(01:13:35):
So I sent it back to him and I was
shoot a target and show them where the group was
at seven ten yards whatever I was shooting, and say
this is where it's.

Speaker 2 (01:13:43):
Shooting with this load.

Speaker 9 (01:13:45):
I want to choot point of any point of impact
and it would fix it, and usually was involved retweaking
the barrel to put it where it was supposed to go.
I had a sixty two that would not shoot to
point of aim with any load I had, so I
had to grind the front site. Now, at that time
I was using one twenty five grain nightclad non plus

(01:14:10):
F loads, and I.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
Ground the front site now with a file.

Speaker 9 (01:14:14):
I have a special file built for my nineteen elevens
to grind it down to fit the sites.

Speaker 2 (01:14:19):
And I almost went down on that revolver down to
the numb of the shroud.

Speaker 4 (01:14:24):
I mean there's.

Speaker 9 (01:14:25):
Maybe maybe an eighth event inch, probably a little less
than eighth of in inch of the site left, but
it hit point of any point of impact for the
nightclad load. Well, then, when I found that load didn't
work well, in actually gel and switch over to wandcutters
now shoot a little high Personally, I don't take a
revolver that shoots high. A couple of inches high does

(01:14:45):
not bother me. I can adjust for that. It's when
I have to shoot high to hit something to.

Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
Be low that that bothers me. I cannot accurately adjust
for that.

Speaker 9 (01:14:54):
So it just depends on that. But that's how you
adjust adjustable sites for fixt site guns. With the the
very amio you shoot.

Speaker 1 (01:15:04):
Well, that covers the revolver side today a day and
age point of impact. I still go back to if
you're not testing your guests. And so obviously you got
to set her up. And they were talking about the
multiical and I went ahead and grabbed one. Here talking
about semi autos, so you have the semi auto. Obviously

(01:15:28):
the Master series rest here.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):
Is the standard here.

Speaker 1 (01:15:32):
So on the Master Series you don't even have to
hold the machine the gun. It holds it for you,
and you get point of impact. And once you get
the group size and you can easily stand behind the gun,
cite the sites.

Speaker 2 (01:15:46):
And lighting it in.

Speaker 1 (01:15:48):
It's awesome when you're dealing with a semi auto with
red dots these days, because that's held, it's mounted in
the machine. Once you get your group size, you can
come by and behind it. Adjust your point of aim.
On your semi autos and talking multiical, for this one here,

(01:16:10):
you got three points of contact. It's setting in the
V block. Push the gun forward, it's stabled, and then
with your hand, so I got three points of contact.
And then as I hold that and I can pull
that trigger and it's not changing that point of aim
as I do that and then when I get that
point of impact at that distance, and it will change

(01:16:31):
with handguns. We talk about rifles all the time, and
I may mention. So here's the multi cow with a
rifle on it. You can see it back here, I
think kind of, and I can move the camera a
little closer. Hopefully heal. So let me see here if

(01:16:52):
I can get you in here. But yeah, and so
there's a multical with a rifle with a rear back
works with just a rear bag and a front multiical
and dial in your optic. We have the diamond rest
behind it. You can see for the rifle rest, and
that's kind of what I wanted to talk about. And

(01:17:13):
so you can't see it real well, I'll try to
get a photo of it. Yeah, it's flipping out on me.
Just last month world record at Beinterest Rifle Shooting FCSA
fifty cal Shooter Association world record for best shot group
on a thousand yards done off our rifle rest. So

(01:17:36):
once again citing it. In zeroing it to that point
of impact, you're able to do three, five, eight rounds
and then zero it right to that. The reason I
go off of a rest is because it's held perpendicular
parallel and it easily as you turn this scope you
can see and I don't know if you have much

(01:17:57):
light here, my apologies, but it's holding that perpendicular. I
can turn the scope up and down and adjust to
where my point of impact is, removing those variables. If
you're not testing your guessing, you need to know your velocity,
your your penetration, and once again your repeatability. We talk

(01:18:19):
about acceptable accuracy that pipelate. If you're hunting, you want
to be able to do that standing against a tree
or laying prone repeatably at a hundred, two hundred or
three hundred yards, or you don't take that shot. It's
not humane. So same with a handgun. So to dial
in the handgun, it's very important to get that repeatable

(01:18:41):
point of a point of impact, zero it and then
duplicate it off hand. The reason I made the multical
is to train myself muscle retention, muscle memory, what it's
supposed to feel like, what it's supposed to shoot like,
and then boom, go back to battery, boom, go back
to back bay, boom, go back to battery.

Speaker 2 (01:19:02):
Boom. I got a.

Speaker 1 (01:19:03):
Point of impact for whatever distance I need. Now I
can do zero my sights. There are tools to drift
the site in the rear, there's tools to drift the
site in the front. And it will change depending on
what ammo you're running in a handgun. Watch our videos.
You've been at twenty five and fifty yards, and I

(01:19:23):
realize what they say most defensive is going to be
one arm length to three arm lengths away. But at
the same time, when that happens, I'm shaken. I'm scared, crapless.
So to remove as many variables as possible, I need
a zero. And when I go to the range, I

(01:19:44):
don't want to look like a full I want to
hit what i'm hitting pointing at. So touch your ammo,
zero your sights. Red dot's huge. So if you go
to gun Sight Academy right now and you take any
of their gun sit classes, especially the optic class. Most
but I'll let them talk. I'm not gonna speak for them.
I'm not positive, but most of them will tell me.

(01:20:06):
Are the RSOs say we're gonna take their optic class,
and they're they're goun class. They're gonna make you zero
your gun off a multical, you know, just to verify
point of a point of impact before their class.

Speaker 2 (01:20:20):
What was that mark? Take a human error out of it?

Speaker 1 (01:20:24):
Absolutely, and they want to do that right away. I mean,
just zero it. They'll make you zero off a multical
So amen to them. They they found something that works
for them and that's what they're relying on because they
want to know, can you zero and then when you
stand there, can you duplicate it? Regardless of what? And
then they'll they'll they'll drive in grip site, picture, proper stance,

(01:20:49):
all that, And that's where we were going back to before.
This will give you the confidence is your equipment going
to be able to do it? Got God bless them?
Some people why use a ransom ress? You know, guns
are more accurate than I am. You may be correct,
but you know federal loads some great, ammo. I know
a lot of guns that that stuff just doesn't shoot

(01:21:12):
very well, sera bullets. It's just you know Burger you know,
uh high desert Cartris shoots makes great.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
Ammo.

Speaker 1 (01:21:22):
I got a couple here. I love super Value. You
guys mentioned it before. We love mills Amo. I like
I like mills Amo. He's a good old guy. And
super Value guys they all use a ransom ress. I
work with a federal does vortec Optics uses a ransom ress.
This all goes back to testing. So how to zero

(01:21:42):
your sites, test it, verify your AMMO zero it.

Speaker 2 (01:21:45):
Yeah, I like running I like five shot groups. I
know the old standard was three. I prefer five. Yeah,
just to really verify stuff.

Speaker 6 (01:21:55):
But yeah, not expert in zeroing or scopes or the
m o A is are the m rads and all
that stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:22:02):
And I am not the expert in that one, Jenny,
I mean neither.

Speaker 1 (01:22:07):
And I'm still going back to the brute And you know,
Darryl Bolk says, what's scientific?

Speaker 2 (01:22:12):
It's confusing.

Speaker 1 (01:22:13):
You know this machine, it can be so scientific and
there's such a science behind it. At the end of
the day, it is literally a brute test. It is
literally sling it and shoot it and verify it. I'm
not going to get held up on barrel pressures, velocities.

Speaker 2 (01:22:30):
At the end of the day. What does the gun do?

Speaker 4 (01:22:32):
Period?

Speaker 8 (01:22:34):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:22:34):
And when you get into rifles, you get into tapered barrels,
fluted barrels, carbon fiber barrels, you know, barrel I actually
heavy barrels. I tested, Uh, that kind of stuffy barrel
whip and and and what's interesting is in barrel whip,
we think a barrel whip. Is this actually into high
speed in my Mega two rifle tester and I could

(01:22:55):
roll the machine over there.

Speaker 2 (01:22:57):
What were you going to.

Speaker 1 (01:22:57):
Say, Mark, get a lot of whip with barrels. Yeah,
barrel whip, and we think barrel whips this way. But
we did some high speed testing in my megato and
some otherwise. It's circular. It's the rifle in circular answer
to it. Yeah, absolutely, And were talking to like Randy

(01:23:18):
Brimson from you know, Sammy Specky designed a lot of
and he helped build a lot of the bres and stuff.
Either way, you talk about when the primer debtonates, then
the powder debtonates, the bullet leaves. He was speaking about,
there's actually three different concussions. You see when they put
it in this sound room, sound pressure chamber room, and

(01:23:39):
they put all these cameras and videos and they measure
soundwaves boom and how these concussions go off. There's three
different ones. And you get a wave, you get a square,
and you get this ring poop, and and it's weird.
It's this round ring and that's the best I can
explain it on my apologies. But if this wave and

(01:24:00):
then the square wave follows in a round ring bloop,
and if any of those jump or coincide and they're
not space properly, you get craziness happened, right, and the
gun's just not happy. And they talking about barrel whip.
It's I think they were saying like a one or

(01:24:20):
two degrees. It sounds ridiculous to me, but they found
the military found out a certain whip is where you
get that accuracy. You want that that bullet to leave
the chamber when that.

Speaker 2 (01:24:30):
Barrel goes whoop in the same way.

Speaker 1 (01:24:33):
You want that thing to leave at a one and
a half to two degree whoop. It's not actually dead flat,
it's it's a wave almost. And when that concussion comes
through there and it's weird. Ignition happens when the primer
goes poof and then boom and boom and then a
circle and it's I'm impressed.

Speaker 2 (01:24:51):
It geeks me out.

Speaker 1 (01:24:53):
And the other Steve was it started as forensics and
we were invited to the American tool Mark Examiners Conference
for forensics. Taught forensics in the world, and it was
nice and all the forensic labs have a ransom ress
right for testing forensics for shooting it safely discharging the

(01:25:17):
gun for measuring that. And they were talking about barrel
pressures and stuff, how it changes the primers, how the
primers look, how big in dented the primer is, how
it rolled back, how the cartridges acted, and how just
the primer mark and the you know, your striker hit
and the primer, how that can change versus your powder load.

(01:25:39):
I found that interesting. So either way, I'm getting sidetracked here.
Your point of point of impact is super critical. As
you see in our videos. We do document this at
twenty five or and that's why I like to set
the three targets up. We talked about it. I don't
do it all the time, and sorry my videos is
not super explanatory, but I'm just trying to tickle your

(01:26:00):
guys's ear on why you should test, why you should test.

Speaker 2 (01:26:04):
Don't believe the give.

Speaker 8 (01:26:04):
Of the cool things about that though, with using the
three pieces of paper is it's if you don't have
the ability to know what your trajectory's going to be,
it's mapping it out for you, and that should be
an aspect of your zeroing to Determinekay, what's my max ordinate,
what's my what's what's my point of aim? And how

(01:26:26):
does everything mesh together to optimize that trajectory.

Speaker 1 (01:26:33):
And I actually even started doing it because I was
making decisions on small sample groups. Did we not talk
about doing three sets of the same AMMA? So sorry
my video, I may only show one group of the AMMO,
and we're making decisions on small sample groups. But what
I was trying to do is get more data once
again going back to the data. And there's been times

(01:26:54):
I'm like, hey, this AMMO tests really well. And then
I stretched it out to twenty five and fifty and
the things a freaking soccer ball. It's like it's ugly.
And I found AMMO that wasn't so good, like FMJ
some FMJ that like, all of a sudden at fifty
yards it's holding tight and it's like, wait, wait a minute,
I made decisions on a fifteen yard zero or twenty

(01:27:16):
five yard zero. And who was it? The Wilson guy
in the in the in the mall hit that guy
at almost fifty yards away. When you need it, you're
gonna need it. And there's a story Bob Davis talking
when Jeff Cooper first started his plan out here and
you know, and Chuck Ransom and moved over here or whatever.

(01:27:37):
But he goes out there and talking to Jeff and
he's leaving the and he's saying, maybe I shouldn't share
this story. But hees a a couple of coyotes and
trying to get a long prong horn out there, and
he actually jumped up in the back of his truck,
probably on the road with US forty five ninety eleven,
tries to barrel down on this coyote and pulls a

(01:27:59):
trigger and he hits and coyote didn't even catch it
because he's so far away. Little Kentucky Windage takes the
next shot. You know, it's the thing, and he's he
just left the ranch. Jeff Cooper just started. This is
probably in seventy eight, seventy nine and then and he
thought he did pretty good and he scared the other
coyote away, and he the only thing he didn't do

(01:28:20):
is lift the gun up and blow the end of
the gun. You know, I mean, he was like, oh,
he was impressed with himself. Made the shot at two
hundred yards away with a handgun, you know, but he like, wow,
all the press turns around and guess who's standing behind his.

Speaker 2 (01:28:32):
Truck at the tailgate? Quiet as can be. Cooper.

Speaker 1 (01:28:37):
So the guy he turns around and he sees Cooper
standing there. Of course Cooper's packing, and he looks at
him and there's quiet for a while, and he's looking
at him and looking at Cooper, and you know, and
it's like, uh, and he's pretty white right now because
I just broke all these roles.

Speaker 2 (01:28:52):
I shot from a road in.

Speaker 1 (01:28:54):
A vehicle at and I'm not even on my property
on Cooper's ranch, you know, a couple while I was
from Cooper and God bless him. I guess the story
goes like something Jeff looks at him and says, so,
what did we learn by this? This sounds like Colonel Cooper,
So what did we learn by this?

Speaker 2 (01:29:12):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:29:13):
And that's what I love and that's what I love
about Mark, is what did we learn by this? And
I guess the story of the day because the guy
was like, well, I'm not sure, and he's like, what
do you mean You're not sure? What did we learn
by this? And it was a teaching moment. But Cooper
and I'll share the story. I'll rest of the story.
Cooper finally looked at the guy and says, the guy
with a handgun is dangerous at any distance.

Speaker 2 (01:29:37):
And I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:29:38):
I'm like, I remember that guy who they ain't good,
dangerous at any distance and.

Speaker 2 (01:29:44):
From the story.

Speaker 1 (01:29:44):
Years later, I even heard Cooper talk about once saying
it impressed him seeing him take that shot, you know,
and uh, but you need to know that and build
the confidence.

Speaker 2 (01:29:54):
And that's what that does.

Speaker 1 (01:29:55):
That's what the chronograph, themo it's what it does your
life to pay it. Don't believe the sales, gimmicks, the train.
I love Mark because he checks everything, trains it. That's
why I listen to dB And you know, Brian, I've
never served like Mark, did I. You know, proofs in

(01:30:18):
the pudding. I'm a bull and you know I'm more
of the bull approach. Send them through it and let's
find out. You know, we get sit here and talk
about velocity all day, we can talk about penetration, we
can talk about all that. Let's send it and find out,
because at the end of the day, just because it
did good in your six inch doesn't mean it's gonna
do him good in my two inch doesn't mean it's

(01:30:39):
gonna do it good of my polymer. It could be
the best things in slice spread that hst inch and
seven eighth's through a Prodigy, through a Prodigy Chambers customs.
You know Joeja, you know he'd love that grouping. He'd
share it all day, you know, through a Prodigy, through
a mass produced gun. Next serial number might not do it.

(01:31:01):
And clearly the other one, like the CCI Sorry.

Speaker 8 (01:31:05):
And that completely reinforces the whole idea of we can't
just be going off. I'm reading the chat that's going
on on the side on YouTube to and I'm not
saying that this is what the people watching are saying.

Speaker 7 (01:31:19):
But I have seen people say, Okay, I have.

Speaker 8 (01:31:22):
An AR fifteen fifty yeards zero because it's going to
be on at twenty or two hundred. That's not the case.
Your altitude, your ammunition, your barrel, your barrel length, all
of these factors you need at just exactly as you said, Mike,
you need to test this and you can't just say, well,
clearly i'm zero at fifty.

Speaker 1 (01:31:42):
My second metal is yeah, that allergy. We've lived our
life on metal urgy, and so you guys were talking
about blowing the and we can go on for hours
about this, but shooting a barrel out and you guys
were talking like twenty two hundred rounds? What are the
six five right now?

Speaker 2 (01:31:58):
Do you know?

Speaker 1 (01:31:58):
And when they first came out six five, we blow
him out at twelve hundred rounds. And there was a
guy who was testing the coding who I was working
with them directly, and they were using megatoo. They actually
found this special coating, the special oil, and they were
actually able to get these six fives out to thirty
five hundred rounds. It was revolutionary at the time. I'm like, wow,
that's absolutely thirty five hundred rounds through a six five.

(01:32:21):
And then it just went nuts and the group just
dramatically exploded and they could figure out why. Now, originally
they microscopped and they saw where in the feed ramp,
and then they saw somewhere in the lands, and so
they went to this other oil and they brought these
things into thirty five hundred rounds and all of a sudden,
but the wear's really not there. This ain't there. It's

(01:32:42):
like what happened all of a sudden, All these problems
we solved, and all of a sudden at thirty five
hundred rounds of things gone wacky. You want to know
what he shared with me. I'm not the guru here.
This is just what he shared from what we can
fathom metal urgy. A leaf spring on a truck. After

(01:33:07):
what happens to the leaf spring, It gets saggy, it
gets tired that barrel whip. After a while, it is
easier for the thing to go wow than it is
to withstain the integrity of it. And next thing, you know,
when the round goes off, boom boom. That thing's a
wet spaghetti noodle. It has no structure left. It is
a worn out leaf spring. Amazing. I was so it

(01:33:32):
doesn't matter your barrel, your lands and grooves all that.
There comes a point where how strong is your metal?
I'm amazed at that. I'm like, wow, I'm not the
guru here. All I know is the results. Throw it
in a ransom rest, send a downrange, Put it on
our rifle rest, send it down range. Let me share
something with you if I can do a shameless plug.

(01:33:53):
You know, I mentioned it earlier that NRA mentioned guns
and Ammo have inen inherrently gotten more accurate since that
ability to repeatably be able to test. And I believe
that's what it's all about. I think we lose that today.
We were buying a bad bill of goods from the manufacturer,
from the gun manufacturer. And even if your rifle is SUBMOA,

(01:34:14):
show me ammo that says it's submoamo.

Speaker 2 (01:34:17):
Can you show me?

Speaker 4 (01:34:18):
Hey?

Speaker 1 (01:34:18):
Do you guys sell it over at eye Desert? No
such thing as sub m oamo? Is there quarter m
oamo any of that. It doesn't exist. So even if
your gun's able to do it, does your amo do it?
You know, we're being fed a bunch of bill of
good bad bill of goods. We really are. And at
the end of the day, it is acceptable accuracy and

(01:34:39):
ransom rests. We're wanting to hold inch and a half
at fifty yards one hand at bullseye?

Speaker 10 (01:34:45):
Is it me?

Speaker 2 (01:34:46):
You know? The gun? The mo that's we get our
roots in bulls eye shooting.

Speaker 1 (01:34:50):
And then people say, well, I don't need a ransom wrestle, idpa,
I don't need a ransom wrestle on usps.

Speaker 2 (01:34:55):
Hey, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:34:56):
We're running and gun and then three guns all of
a sudden, accuracy went out the window. You know, I
understand nine millimeter. It's quick.

Speaker 2 (01:35:03):
We can get back on target. Boom boom boom.

Speaker 1 (01:35:05):
You mentioned who can do five rounds and five seconds,
you know, out of you know, we were talking about that.
Why do you think nine millimeter, in my opinion, has
dominated everything because that returned to recoil, the felt impulse.
We've dominated it in the competition world. And to me,
it's all about repeatability at twenty five and fifty yards,

(01:35:27):
Hi Desert, Ammo. I don't care how good ammo they
make Federal Sierra. I love the mills Ammo. Have I
showed mills Amo beating any races? Not necessarily, but they're
dang good Ammo. You know, go ahead, I'm babbling too much.
I have zero in your sites. We're about zero the sites. Yeah,
if you wait for the last video, the next video

(01:35:49):
I'm sharing. We did a staccato, we did a stacado PE,
we did a staccato HD, and there was another reported
staccato for Fink's custom guns. And we were actually testing
the the porting because screwing on a compensator on the front,
we actually lose accuracy, repeatability. Have fifty yards, sure, it
stops flip and it stops the recoil impulse and so

(01:36:14):
you can get But what we found is we're losing
something after twenty five it's it's spreading out and I
can take that same gun without and there's this decompport
that they're milling into the slides and into the barrel.
We actually got we didn't lose as much repeatability at
that distance versus an added on compensator on the barrel,

(01:36:36):
So that needs tested more. But either way, we were
testing the three staccados, a p UNCOMPED, COMPED and then
a HD and we were testing at fifteen to twenty
five and fifty yards and seeing what AMMO. And what
we did was that for the grouping, we zero that
red dot right to the center of the group, and
then we verify it with eight more rounds right in

(01:36:58):
the center of the group. Now you can pull the gun,
put it in your hand, put it in a multi
cow whatever, and duplicate those shots and it will tell
you if you're pulling to six o'clock or three o'clock.
It'll tell you know what you're doing. And that's the
reason why I like the Ransom resc they call it.
The Great Light Detector is me the gun the AMMO.
I like to say, we keep the gun manufacturers and

(01:37:21):
the AMMO manufacturers honest for the last fifty years. In
a sense sometimes we do. But you know the point
is is we zero it right to this group. Now
you can pull it pink pink, pink, and if you
can repeatably at pink tink tink. If you're at the
six o'clock, fine, if you can hold that group and

(01:37:43):
you're six o'clock of your sites, go right, ah edge,
you're pulling your shots. But dude, you're repeatable. If you
pull it to the three, sure, move your sight, but
it will tell you if you're pulling your shots. What
I find most people say, well, it's at three o'clock
and are you repeatable? Well I'm three inches. Well you're
not repeatable if you can get it down to what

(01:38:04):
the Ransom rest of Brian said. He he beat at
one time. You should be able to do or we didn't
do our job. And that's why Chuck Ransom designed it
that way. So when you know Massade i Ope said,
I could the rans presser. You know, you know, why
would you use you know, whatever man, you go for it.

(01:38:27):
I love what Wiley Clapp said, and God rest is sole.

Speaker 2 (01:38:30):
He just passed away.

Speaker 1 (01:38:32):
But you may be able to yield an occasional group
like the ransom rests, or I'll shoot the ransom breast.
But to do it from sunrise to sunset, you know,
regardless of the pizza you had last night or the
coffee you ate this morning. You know, I've had seven
cups of coffee. I'm stable. But this is my shooting him.

(01:38:55):
You know, we all know the joke. You know, that's
what it's about. It's and but it's about confidence. It's
saving AMMO and building the confidence and then take the
training so you have that confidence. You know, that's all
I want to do. I want to build that confidence
that my gun can do it. Zero the sites. I
want to know if shot. I want to train poof

(01:39:18):
poo roll those shots. I want to know if it's
you know, it's critical for me. I'm not as good
a shoot as Park. I'm not as good as Juck Aggert, Brian.
You know, I'm sorry, I'm not you know, uh, you
know Jerry Mitchellik. I shared Jerry Mitchellick.

Speaker 2 (01:39:35):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:39:36):
He is not as accurate as he's repeatable. Think about
it for a minute. If he misses shot second time,
third time, he quickly adjusts. Pink tink, tink, He's not accurate.
Military says, you can be accurate but not repeatable, repeatable
but not accurate.

Speaker 2 (01:39:53):
You realize there's two different things.

Speaker 4 (01:39:55):
You can be.

Speaker 1 (01:39:56):
Repeatable, ding ding tink, you're repeating, but you're not act
You're not on bullseye. You can hit bullseye, but can
you do it again? You're not repeatable.

Speaker 2 (01:40:05):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:40:05):
The core teaches you that you can be accurate but
not repeatable, repeatable but not accurate. It's two different things. So,
and I'm sorry I mix it up on my video.
Sometimes we're testing accuracy, repeatability or repeatability.

Speaker 2 (01:40:17):
Accuracy.

Speaker 1 (01:40:17):
Accuracy comes in when we dial the sites to the
point of impact. Now we can talk about accuracy, right, Okay,
So first of all, you got to you got to
accomplish a repeatability. You know, how tight can you get
if you're olding this, you know, depending on where your sites,
you're not very accurate, you know. But if you're old
in this and you dial do the center, now you're accurate.

(01:40:39):
Can you repeat? Now you're repeatable and accurate. It's a
tough gig. It's the tough gig so dial in in sits.
The first thing you asked me is are you repeatable?
Let's get it repeatable. First, figure out what it can do.
When you watch my videos, people get all upset. Why
is the off target? He's not even hitting bullseye? One
guy said. I first started watching your videos, I was
like this guy, dumb, He's not even hitting. He's missing

(01:41:02):
the target. He's missing the target. Man, give it crap
about where the bulls?

Speaker 2 (01:41:06):
I was.

Speaker 1 (01:41:07):
I'm looking to see what the group size is, how
many rounds, where are they going to stack? And then
let's try the next AMO, next ammo, next AMMO. I'm
a brute about this. I don't freaking care. Check them all.
Get the tightest group. Hey, I like that stuff. Now
I can zero. Now I can go back and verify.

Speaker 2 (01:41:24):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:41:24):
Now, can I start load dewmo? Can I start doing powder?
Start doing bullet?

Speaker 2 (01:41:29):
Tight? Can I get?

Speaker 1 (01:41:30):
And the reason why I went as tight as I
can is because when I'm like this and I'm at
the end of that stop plate and I want to
hit that stop or whatever. You know, you guys get it,
so chime in, please out shut up.

Speaker 7 (01:41:44):
No, I completely agree.

Speaker 8 (01:41:47):
So yeah, because the more we can remove that human element,
the better off we're going to be. And through that training,
through that practice, we can refine that human influence.

Speaker 1 (01:41:57):
Well, yeah, I shared earlier and I'll share it again,
and I'm sorry. I have a big heart, and I
upset a gun manufacturer because he actually sent a letter
to somebody who said, hey, our gun felled and the
gun's not accurate because the ransom rest held it loosely
or something and that's why it limpressed the gun and
the gun malfunctioned. And we're like, excuse me. We've been

(01:42:20):
around for you know, over fifty years. You're saying your
gun's not cycling. It's not chambering the round cycling and
going boom because the ransom rest limpress did it.

Speaker 2 (01:42:31):
WHOA.

Speaker 1 (01:42:32):
I literally, I'm sorry. I jump in both feet. I'll
jump in both feet, and let's prove this because I'm
like Steve, hey, you know, let's find out because I care.
And I showed this thing will not function in cycle.
And I actually put his gun against a highpoint. I'm
sorry I did, and he called me up so upset
because the ruger rx M outgrouped his gun and he

(01:42:55):
was so upset. The Ruger out grouped his gun, and
I'm thinking you're upset that it out grouped your gun.
I'm upset it didn't even chamber and go boom. You
know what I mean. But the point is is you
need a standard of testing. If not, they're selling you
a bad pill of goods. And what is that standard?
There should be a standard. And if it's not a

(01:43:15):
ransom rest, fine, throw us away. I'm willing to pack
it up and go home. Okay, show me what the
damn standard is.

Speaker 2 (01:43:22):
I'll follow it. Right. Are you an agreement? Mark you
an agreement?

Speaker 1 (01:43:26):
Stif we need a standard some way that you can
take this gun regardless if you're a mile up mile
down and that amo and this temperature and verify if
it's worth a crap or not.

Speaker 2 (01:43:37):
That's all I'm asking for.

Speaker 9 (01:43:39):
Well, accuracy wise, it depends on if you're using even
a ransom rest is noop size is one thing of consistency.
But to shoot the sites, the sites depending on how
you look through sites depend on how the site's height.

Speaker 2 (01:43:55):
I had. I bought my first but nineteen X they.

Speaker 9 (01:43:59):
Had a low front sight on it from their standard,
and I found that I shot very low with it.
So I had to change my site out, and I
changed my site out to a standard site. Shot twenty
eight point of impact on my AMO got the forty
three X. I shot really low and I had to
do with the America glows. I had to put the

(01:44:21):
lowest front sight on that gun. Did twenty any point
of impact and and it just depends on how the
gun is. Everybody's different, That's the thing about it. There's
nobody one. One person is not the same as that
are my gun side. For me, I hit where you are.
If you change AMMO, that the change point of impact.

(01:44:42):
When you know one fifteen twenty four sevens all that's
going to change point of impact on your gun.

Speaker 2 (01:44:48):
So you got to make sure you shoot where you are.

Speaker 9 (01:44:51):
But my brain about it is the most most people
who buy a gun don't shoot well enough to know
the point of impact different than the sites.

Speaker 2 (01:45:05):
They don't. They don't have a clue if they hit
a general area. They're happy. Guys like guys like us
on this other website.

Speaker 9 (01:45:14):
We want to hit the point of any point of
impact based on what our sites see in our brain
with that bullet where it is, or hit high.

Speaker 2 (01:45:22):
I'm a good guy with hit high. I can handle it.

Speaker 9 (01:45:25):
If they one or two inches high, I'm good with that.
But most people can't tell the difference. That's why Smith
and Weston set the guns out without the barrels being centered,
because most peoples can't shoot well enough to tell a
difference to the fact that it doesn't shoot a group
where it's spoke to his point of any point of impact.

Speaker 2 (01:45:41):
Because that's not the public. They don't care.

Speaker 9 (01:45:45):
You're brought us a great product, but the average American
shooter is not going to buy a ransom rest to
test the defensive game. All they want to do is buy
a handgun, will hit what they want to do at
five seven yards and be done.

Speaker 1 (01:45:59):
And I agree, And we see this with the Glock
Gen five, we saw it with the M and P.
And in fact, when you call a manufacturer today and
say your gun's not accurate, what's most of the time
they tell you, And it's the same thing this other
company told the customer, No, you're not accurate, your gun,
don't shoot what are they going to sell you? No,
you can't shoot right, And that's typically what they tell you.

(01:46:22):
And so this brings up there must be a way
to verify what they gave you and sold you is
worth its cup of salt or now now whether you
go buy one to verify whatever, there needs to be
a way to verify a standard.

Speaker 4 (01:46:37):
Back.

Speaker 1 (01:46:38):
We can't all just send it to Mark Frickey to
test our guns. Or I love it when they say
it's quarter moa, Why why is that rifle?

Speaker 2 (01:46:47):
Half? Ma, Well, we had.

Speaker 1 (01:46:49):
And when you finally nail these manufacturers down, half the time,
I get well, because Joe in the back shot it.
What you know this gun is that accurate because Joe
shot it?

Speaker 2 (01:47:01):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:47:02):
At some point, Steve, Mark you I we should be
able to verify this. That's all I'm getting to I
get it. Guns are more accurate than I am.

Speaker 2 (01:47:10):
I get it.

Speaker 1 (01:47:11):
But at some point we have to be able to
verify what that gun can do. And if it's not this,
what is it? And so I think we all need one.
We all need to verify that, and we need that standard.
You have that standard and everything else. Here's how you
check your internet speed, here's how you check this, Here's
how you check that. You should have that standard to check.

Speaker 9 (01:47:34):
I want to say this, most gun owners don't care.
True well enough, I agree, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:47:45):
We we do.

Speaker 9 (01:47:46):
We all care about that. We hear about the lot.
We will make sure they shoot that way. Every public doesn't.
So I'm not sure that the every public will want
and do all this testing because all they want to
have the gun. They think it hit somebody at five
and seven yards away, and that's they're done with it,
right that they don't care.

Speaker 2 (01:48:08):
For personal difference. And that's as far as they get.

Speaker 9 (01:48:10):
Rifle hunters, that is a different game all completely.

Speaker 2 (01:48:15):
The true enough barrel.

Speaker 9 (01:48:17):
Twist, the whip, the torque on the barrel and all
that and all those impacts, those make a big difference.
And those guys are different than the average gun owner
who buys a handgun for self defense.

Speaker 2 (01:48:31):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:48:32):
But that's where that down dirty, that multi cattle or
you know that other rifle rests that quick down dirty zero,
go to the range. But what we like about that
is also fun for plinking or otherwise. Right, Yeah, and
that that's where that comes in. But and that's what
it is about. But you got to zero those sights
to the point of impact. Check your point of impact.

(01:48:55):
Do off the sandbag. How many sandbags have you shot?
I did a sleeping bag once. Yeah, trying to rest
off the rolled sleeping bag. And yeah, I'm sure we've
all done. We've all ruined a few sandbags in our time,
haven't we have?

Speaker 2 (01:49:11):
Indeed?

Speaker 11 (01:49:12):
Yeah, so well, considering the hour and we're approaching four
hours now, I have a four year old that keeps
on coming into my office just announcing his presence.

Speaker 7 (01:49:25):
I'm actually kind of surprised he's still awake.

Speaker 8 (01:49:27):
But I think we probably should wrap it up. Awesome discussion,
covered so much and I think this is also going
to be one of those discussions where we talked about
so many cool topics. This is going to go on
people's short lists when it comes to the meat and
potatoes of the important topics. So before I have you

(01:49:51):
guys give your final thoughts, your final your final plugs.
I'm going to say my favorite thing, and that is
going out to you, the listener of the view or
make sure that you are supporting.

Speaker 7 (01:50:02):
Those sources that you have found to be beneficial.

Speaker 8 (01:50:04):
Pay attention to who these guys say, they are, who
they represent, what websites they have, all that kind of stuff,
and make sure that you are supporting.

Speaker 7 (01:50:15):
If you liked what they had.

Speaker 8 (01:50:16):
To say, you got to follow them, and that goes
with everything primary and secondary. I have all these different episodes, website, forum, Facebook, groups, is.

Speaker 7 (01:50:30):
Offer you use.

Speaker 8 (01:50:31):
I love being able to provide that, and I also
love putting these types of discussions together, getting professionals together
to talk shop and talk shop to a level that
you may not always have access to this kind of
stuff because there's so much more flash, and there's so
much more stuff focused on pure entertainment, but not educational entertainment.

(01:50:52):
So with that in mind, Mark final thoughts, final plugs.

Speaker 2 (01:51:00):
Get in the game late.

Speaker 9 (01:51:00):
I've had another conference I had to do, so I
came in late. So my name is Mark Frickey and
I'm from America Farm Pain Tactics. I don't do a
web I have no web page anymore. I let expire
because most of my stuff is contract work open schools.
I have one in Wyoming in June. If you're interested.

(01:51:21):
We do handguns, rifles, shotguns, fil autos, position rifle depending
on the year it is, Mark, I'm sorry, it's AFT
T one seven at MSN dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:51:35):
If you're interested, anyone I have out there.

Speaker 9 (01:51:37):
Otherwise, I do government contracts and agencies around the country
and world.

Speaker 2 (01:51:44):
So that's me. But thank you for letting me do this.

Speaker 9 (01:51:47):
I am doing a book on wantcutters, and I'm hoping
you haven't done soon.

Speaker 2 (01:51:53):
But like I said, poor Steve, it's been four years, Steve,
no more log cutters. Mark, Let's just get this I.

Speaker 10 (01:52:03):
Wanted to You got it, I understand, So hopefully would
be out about walks for defensive use and when it
comes out, I'll be with Matt and some other guys
to promote the book and let it know what it
so I appreciate it.

Speaker 8 (01:52:18):
That's and that's been great about having you around for
that knowledge and that that you've been able to comment
and provide so much pertinent information on that topic. And
how many people would not have even considered this had
you not brought it up right right.

Speaker 2 (01:52:38):
It is actually one of the oldest bullets we've.

Speaker 9 (01:52:40):
Had for defensive use, right back in the eighteen eighteen seventies.
It's been around and it still works well. And you know,
it's not perfect. Is it a hollow point no? Is
it exotic?

Speaker 4 (01:52:54):
No?

Speaker 9 (01:52:55):
But it does a job if you know what to
do with it, and you can deliver the point of impact.
So that's what it is. So thank you so much.
Let me being part of this tonight. Sorry, I was
in late.

Speaker 8 (01:53:05):
I just glad you were able to make it. Steve,
and I still need to place another order.

Speaker 6 (01:53:12):
Yeah, yeah, I'm hoping to get those new rounds on
the website soon.

Speaker 2 (01:53:17):
Mark, I'll get your m O out that new lode cutter.
I'll send you some short Burrow stuff to try to
get it out. I know I got awesome. Thank you.
I'm looking over here at my gal's desk over here.
You've probably got and orders of boxes sitting on the here,
so I'll add it to the list there. Matt. When'd

(01:53:40):
you make your order yesterday? Today? I mean either today
or yesterday.

Speaker 7 (01:53:43):
Yeah, it was thirty thirty and forty five.

Speaker 2 (01:53:48):
I'll see if it didn't go out, I'll get step
in there. I'll see what I'm cool add it to
it if you get your order in here quick.

Speaker 6 (01:53:57):
Hidays at Cartridge dot com. Doing this about ten years.
I love working with the industry people, Mark and dB
and Y and Fisher and Chuck Haggard a host of
other people. Was out with Ken Hackathorne last weekend. That

(01:54:17):
was that was a hoot and a half working with him,
doing stuff with him and Bruce Cartwright. That was that
was really good. Ken gave me some AMMO for for
me to test to evaluate for him and his handloads.
That was kind of cool. Nice, But I like doing
some of the old loads people that haven't done like

(01:54:39):
it brought up you know, my my model, my forty
one Magnum, the Model fifty eight loads, so it hasn't
been around for a while, showing people that you don't
have to have stuff going at you know, mock five
for the stuff to work. Technology has changed, you know,
I I.

Speaker 2 (01:54:57):
You can lead it.

Speaker 6 (01:54:57):
You know the old adage you can lead a horse
to water. You can't make it drink, but at least
lead the horse to water. Humans, Yeah, you can't get
around the water. It's just.

Speaker 2 (01:55:10):
Set us before another stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:55:12):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:55:12):
If someone's got a load that they don't want me
to do for them, I got no problem. As long
as it's a caliber I already load for. I can
just readjust the dies in the powder and away I go.
Can't do these oddball calibers.

Speaker 2 (01:55:25):
If I don't have the equipment for it costs too
much and the setups too much.

Speaker 6 (01:55:28):
So that's that's me in a much nutshell so high
desert Cartridge dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:55:36):
If you have any questions, give me a call.

Speaker 6 (01:55:38):
I answer, Actually I answer the phone, or Ashley answer
the phone.

Speaker 2 (01:55:42):
If you want to talk to me direct, ask for me.
I'm always available and I hope I can always keep
my business that way too.

Speaker 8 (01:55:51):
And I'm I'm happy to say yeah, and that's your
brand is my brand of choice for all my revolver stuff.
It's just it simplifies everything. M good performance. It's what
I want it to be. And it's available. Oh and
then also in the price really reasonable. There you go,

(01:56:14):
and your TMJ's and your jhps.

Speaker 7 (01:56:20):
How they are they're all uh manufacturing.

Speaker 2 (01:56:23):
They're all matched. Yeah, yeah, they're all matched.

Speaker 6 (01:56:26):
Every caliber I have has a matched range and defensive rounds,
so they both shoot point in sights on the target.

Speaker 2 (01:56:36):
That was kind of a goal and I'm happing that
with it.

Speaker 7 (01:56:40):
Yay, Mike.

Speaker 2 (01:56:43):
Me, Hey, thanks for having me. Love being here.

Speaker 1 (01:56:46):
Uh just yep, student of a fr American fighting revolver,
student of Mark Tricky over here, love the work he does. Yeah,
we're just just a machine and shot up over here
and making rifle rests used by you know all you know,
forensic lads, ballistic testers. It's stumbling of the people we

(01:57:08):
deal with, you know, thank god they we've kept the
doors open and still all American made. So I appreciate
your time today. I appreciate with High Desert Cartridge Company and.

Speaker 2 (01:57:23):
Good good seeing uh.

Speaker 1 (01:57:24):
Brian with a y and you know, yeah, hey, come
if you you want to bump elbows with Mark or
or any of us, come to pat Rogers Revolver around
up or they're having the uh the other revolver fest
going on. Give us a call it ransom Rest dot com.

(01:57:44):
We're on YouTube under ransom Rest. We're on Facebook, social media.
Ask any questions you want, send us emails. Been around
a long time. Some people go, you know, uh, ransom
Rest is expensive. The only thing I can say is
five hundred dollars rifle, b interest, it's gonna outlive you,
me and the rifle you put in it. I think

(01:58:07):
your cell phone in your laptop is expensive and that's
going to be outdated next year, you know. I mean,
my machine's gonna outlive that, you know, and Mark saying,
you know, some do or don't care. The testing a
point is as it tolds its value. Really well, I'm
not here to sell my product as much as just

(01:58:29):
say hey, get out there and test.

Speaker 2 (01:58:32):
Do it yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:58:33):
Figure out if it's you the ammo, the barrel, why
can't you hit the broad side of the barn. There's
a lot of science behind this. It can get really geeky.
It can be confusing, even for us who are in
this industry. I myself who'm in the industry, get frustrated
of the you know, the snake oils and we got

(01:58:56):
to watch out for that. So stay on it, hold
them hard. We love you and until next time, we'll
catch you again. Thank you Matt for having me. Love y'all.
I hope to be on here again and looking forward
to testing more of your ammo. Steve, I've been running
your range, reman, my apologies. Well, we'll get some good

(01:59:20):
stuff and plug in see how it runs. And like
I said, no matter how good you make it.

Speaker 2 (01:59:27):
Doesn't mean your barrel like it or not. So yeah,
I'm gonna.

Speaker 6 (01:59:31):
Order one of your I'm gonna order one of your
multi col rest tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (01:59:35):
Well, thank you, boss. We should just talk and maybe
just give some of your AMMO.

Speaker 2 (01:59:40):
Maybe an exchange is an order or something I'll give you.
I'll give you a call tomorrow. There you go, Boss,
Good talking to you.

Speaker 8 (01:59:51):
Well as for the norm, big thanks to the panel
and big thanks to you the listener of the viewer.

Speaker 7 (01:59:58):
Anothery're just great.

Speaker 2 (01:59:59):
This guy.

Speaker 4 (02:00:01):
Enjoyed it.

Speaker 8 (02:00:02):
Always enjoyed being part of these, being able to listen in,
being able to provide my own questions, and then also
it's especially nice to be able to do these live
on YouTube where we have people that are watching live
able to present their own questions that can help also
steer some of the directions of the discussions.

Speaker 7 (02:00:21):
That's not always the case.

Speaker 8 (02:00:22):
The forty five Cult episode, we were cut short on YouTube.
I was eventually able to do some slight editing throw
it back on YouTube.

Speaker 4 (02:00:30):
This one.

Speaker 8 (02:00:31):
I think it's because we weren't really messing too much
with any Actually, I don't think we'd mess with any firearms.

Speaker 2 (02:00:38):
Yeah, YouTube didn't kill us.

Speaker 7 (02:00:40):
Yeah yeah, inert it works.

Speaker 8 (02:00:43):
But with that mind, if this does go down for
some reason, it will be coming back up, just under
a different link, because most likely what happened is YouTube
decided to demonetize it. And what happens with the demonetization
is then the reach is extremely limited. And that's kind
of that's counter to everything I want to do with

(02:01:04):
these it's not about the monetization, it's not about the
income of the individual videos. It's about providing some good
information that's very widely accessible. With that mind, also same
with when they decide to put age restrictions on some
of these videos. That restricts my reach and I can't
stand it. So big thank you to our sponsors, Big

(02:01:28):
thank you to Lucky Gunner Philstern Walter. Additionally, thank you
to our network supporters on Patreon. If you want to
support the network, all the resources that we have, all
four hundred thirty six different.

Speaker 7 (02:01:43):
What are these called podcasts. This episode is four hours.

Speaker 8 (02:01:48):
Most of the episodes are what two and a half
two hours, so that is a lot of free content
for your use. I can't even imagine if I started
with the first one how long it would take for
me to get through the entire catalog and then all
the all the other additional.

Speaker 7 (02:02:08):
Videos that we've done. It's just been a blast.

Speaker 8 (02:02:10):
But yeah, if you like what if we If you
like what we're doing, Patreon dot com slash Primary and
Secondary or go to Primary and Secondary dot com slash
form and there's.

Speaker 7 (02:02:19):
A banner that says network support through all those.

Speaker 8 (02:02:23):
Means you can help support the network starts at a
dollar dollar a month all the way to Sky's the
limit their benefits involved. Hopefully these these episodes help you out.
I know for me, it's it's a it's a great
way to test my knowledge. It's a great, great way
to reinforce what I know and to fine tune my knowledge.

(02:02:44):
So I think that's pretty much it. I do have
a couple of cool episodes on the Horizon. This was
the first episode where I used the AI or I
used AI to do one of the ads. I do
have an episode coming up where AI is going to
be a panel list.

Speaker 7 (02:03:02):
For a reason. It's going to be fun.

Speaker 8 (02:03:05):
Yeah, we have really cool discussions, but uh what else?
We have the stupid big boar episode coming up? We
have a medical and the medical one is going to
be focused on fentanyl and misconceptions because yeah it's silliness.

Speaker 2 (02:03:27):
But yeah you talked about and with.

Speaker 8 (02:03:33):
A reloading one, which would be a natural progression after
this one.

Speaker 6 (02:03:37):
And then a caliber so well yeah, this so the
small caliber episode.

Speaker 8 (02:03:43):
I'm waiting on Claude Werner who he's been having some
throat issues and so as soon as he comes back,
cool that's going to be.

Speaker 7 (02:03:52):
That's just going to be a lot of fun.

Speaker 2 (02:03:54):
That's going to be a good one.

Speaker 4 (02:03:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (02:03:56):
Yeah, well, and he did.

Speaker 8 (02:03:57):
He was on the first episode where we focused on
house guns, and right about then is when Primary and
Secondary kind of did a transition from everything duty oriented
to let's really talk about everything. So that was a
great discussion. I think Dave simmerly led that one, I think,
but yeah, I think that's pretty much it. I might

(02:04:20):
even have a a four year old who's still roaming
in the house and I need to force them into bed.
Yeah well that is all. Thanks guys, I'll talk to
you later.

Speaker 2 (02:04:36):
Yeah, yeah,

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P&S ModCast 436 - Ammo Selection and Zeroing Part 2

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}P&S ModCast 436 - Ammo Selection and Zeroing Part 2