P&S ModCast 440 - On/Off Duty Critical Response - Primary & Secondary Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
I guess it helps if I add myself to the
to the screen.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
Everyone.

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Matt Lafe here with primary and Secondary. Welcome to podcast
episode number four forty. Today's today's date, October first, twenty
twenty five. We're going to be talking about on and
off duty critical response.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Now.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
The cool thing about this specific topic is it applies
to pretty much everyone. Whether you're in law enforcement, whether
you're not, whether you're carrying a gun, whether you don't,
preferably you do. It all applies because there are factors
that are part of this whole thing where whether you're

(00:49):
an off duty cop or you're an everyday carry responsible citizen,
we're kind of in the same boat and there are
there are factors with this. So it's going to be
a fun discussion. Right now. I have a couple panelists
that are running a little late. They'll be here fairly
fairly soon. In the meantime, just going to talk about

(01:14):
a couple concepts as I get a couple of messages
to see what's going on. Nothing pertaining to this. So
this was also one of those episodes basically just because
of what's going on right now, looking at the news,
looking at current events, looking at attitudes. I thought it

(01:36):
would be nice to just cover some of these concepts
because again, this isn't just this is it may say
on and off duty, but it doesn't necessarily apply to
just cops. This applies to everyone. And one of the
things I had to realize that as a matter of fact,
we had a brief discussion about it in the in

(01:57):
the mod the Literal Model or chat, and then also
on Chappie's podcast a couple of weeks ago, was recognizing
what the demographic of primary and secondary is. The odds are,
if you're watching this or listening to this, what we're
going to be discussing absolutely applies to you, no doubt

(02:17):
about it, because most likely you carry a firearm, most
likely you train, most likely you have this mindset where
you want to do good. Ultimately, I think we can
I think I can say with confidence across the board
pretty much most people they want to do good. They

(02:38):
want to look out for their families, they want to
look out for themselves, their neighborhood, their community, whatever. And
then there's some divergence. But what we're going to be
talking about is those good people that decide to carry
a firearm, and sometimes there's a decision that has to
be made beforehand. Why you're going to act for me?

(02:59):
Who's with me? That's going to be a big determining factor.
What's the environment? Yeah, what's the location. I posted something
along the lines of I've been carrying a Smith and
Wesson for thirty two ultra carry since it came out
as kind of my go to. It's my throw in
the pocket, and I have it while I'm at home.

(03:22):
If I go and run some errands, that's usually what
i'd have. If I go somewhere outside a block, I'll
throw on something more.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
Well.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
Because of everything that's going on, and we'll get into
everything and media and manipulation and whatnot. Because of all that,
I thought, you know what, I am a full time officer.
I could not live with myself if I were put
in a situation where I could have acted and changed
the outcome. I'm going to arm myself with something that

(03:52):
I find to be a little bit more capable. It's
more shootable, easier to reload. So I carried a single
stack nineteen eleven two World.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
War and.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Today similar. And Eric is here I can hear and
see him. Yeah. But one of the things also, I
said in the post was I do have specific guns
with a reload with the corresponding support equipment that are
all in They're all organized, and so, yeah, I have

(04:28):
a bunch of guns behind me, but I also have
my usual go to things Walter, PDPF, spar, mag ulster,
all that kind of stuff. Same with the nineteen eleven.
I carried the same with the sig fuse and a
bunch of different buttons of different setups to include multiple
revolvers which fit specific niches and specific needs. Can everyone

(04:50):
do that? No? Not necessarily. I have the ability, so
I take advantage of it. But for me, it's important
to figure out, Okay, is what am I.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
Going to be doing today?

Speaker 1 (05:00):
If I am staying in the house doing nothing, the
odds of me just caring a revolver, yeah, that's going
to increase, or some like a twenty two. Yeah, I'll
do that. Going outside the immediate borders of my house,
I might carry something a little bit more. If I
am by myself, I might carry I might carry something else.

(05:21):
It really just depends. But the main idea here is
think about this before you before you need to just
ponder these concepts. Ponder the concepts of This isn't a
carrier rotation. This is figuring out what your needs are
and what the parameters of your mission are. And that

(05:42):
includes location, how you get there, the means of getting there,
what's your role when you're there, how long are you
going to be how long are you going to be
away from home and all that kind of stuff. So
I know Haggard is going to be here shortly and Eric,
you are here. Oh you muted yourself.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
There, unmuted. I'm here, here, here, you're here.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
So one of the things that I think is important
to keep in mind is right now, if you look
at the medium, why is the media there? The media
is there. It's a business. It gets if you get
if you give them clicks, they get money. So what's
going to be distributed The stuff that's going to get

(06:29):
the clicks, things that are going to be headlines, and
they're manufacturing the headlines. But there was an LDS church
that was hit? There was was it a restaurant that
was also hit the same night? There are there are
some high profile violent incidents occurring. Is this outside the norm?

(06:50):
I don't know, it might be some of.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
Them are, yeah, right, I think we have to differentiate
between gangster versus gangster. Yes, yes, and I hate the
word targeted attacks. Yeah, targeted, but attacks like like the
one on the meeting house in Michigan, the event on
the UVU campus.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, and my understanding with the LDS Church it was
not political by any means. It was actually he wasn't
a fan of them Mormon people. Yeah, that's so far away.
I've gathered so far.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, what I have heard from the interw what's been
released out of the interviews is he did not like
LDS really.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, So what's the solution. Carry a gun. We don't
have the ability to control other people. We don't have
the ability to predict what's coming. So what you can
do right now is prepare, be prepared, train, carry carry

(07:53):
the appropriate things. If you hadn't already carried a tourniquit,
maybe you should start. If you didn't carry everyload, consider it,
consider it. The one thing that the LDS Church had
that was amazing was the immediate, near immediate response from
law enforcement. We don't necessarily always have that. So you
made a face with that.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, and not having the report and not having the
chronologicals and stuff. Yeah, I cringed when the chief made
a big deal out of the fact that they were
on scene within thirty seconds, which was awesome. I mean, like,
that's amazing. Yeah, I get that it was chaotic, but
it took another seven and a half minutes to put
that dude down.

Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, And all of these are factors that are completely
outside of everyone's control except for the shooter. Shooter can
always either turn the gun on himself or surrender. But
these are all factors that we need to adjust ourselves too.
And it's interesting how reading various discussions people talking about

(08:57):
church security. What was his name, Jack did the single
headshot to the dude that motive shotgun. Yeah, church attacks
are not that uncommon, they occur.

Speaker 3 (09:13):
Now.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
And what's fascinating is the denominations that refuse to allow
anyone to carry on on site.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, Now, I don't know if they have a special
secret little code that like, we have our own security, folks,
and there's some exemption somewhere that applies to them. But
I've was kind of surprised when I saw denominations that
like thou shalt not period. Okay. Interesting, Well, here.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
In Utah, there is a program where basically the state
has made it mandatory that there is at least one
trained armed person in every school. Their identities are protected,
but if something were to happen, they are a pro
greatly armed and they have a means of identification, but

(10:05):
there's always that chance that they can't get that means
of identification or or maybe it's an off duty what
was that or day off? Yeah, but also it could
be uh, what about an off duty cop would have
a parent arm parent? Are there any Are there any

(10:27):
ways of stopping yourself from getting shot?

Speaker 2 (10:29):
Guaranteed? No?

Speaker 3 (10:31):
No.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
I I helped.

Speaker 1 (10:35):
I helped the local county teach alert a couple of
weeks ago, and we were we were teaching an alert
is active shooter response in a couple of scenarios. We
had some of these school guardians integrated with us where
they had kind of a different scenario and they'd start
it and then law enforcement would follow up with them.
And it was very eye opening to see some of

(10:57):
these Some of these guardian people were a they were
able to follow commands very quickly, their draw was incredibly fast,
they were thinking on their feet, polstered their weapon, went
appropriate when especially when contact with law enforcement. Immediately showed
hands and law enforcement didn't come in guns of blazing. Yes,
we're using sims, this is training, but still there were

(11:19):
their concepts that were urged to assess and to stop
and take a breath. And before you go and take action,
you need to be able to think clearly. You need
to be able to identify a positive threat.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
Go ahead. Last summer, Fisher, myself and another instructor went
to a border state to do a five day active
basically school shooter active active color response class that was
not just for l E and the school resource officers
in that county, it was also for school staff. Yeah,
and the elected sheriff of the county had put it together.

(11:53):
He brought Steven Stevers out to myself in the other
instructor And the only reason I'm not naming them is
because I just don't know how open they are about stuff.
And we had the decent, normal human beings there, right.
And one of the things I liked about the sheriff
was he wanted a standard adhered to in terms of
their ability to shoot. And he fired one of the
people from the program because they were not going to

(12:16):
accept the the decided upon, agreed upon issued firearm. It's like, well,
that's too big. Well, you are having difficulty with this
full sized firearm with an optic on it, your little
pocket pistol, no pun intended, that's what it was. Was
not going to produce better results, and quite frankly, was
going to hazard the people it was intended to protect.

(12:39):
So the sheriff had no problem firing that person, and
that was nice to see.

Speaker 3 (12:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, because to be able to do this, this takes
a specific kind of person Yep, not even not necessarily specific,
but a person that can accept, well, there's a good
possibility you're going to go into something with the odds
stacked against you very much. This is going to be
a very unpleasant situation that you are going to be

(13:04):
part of. But this kind of goes back to my
idea also of I don't think I could live and
I don't think you were lugged in when I said this,
But while I'm off duty, if i'm if I if
I'm in a situation where I can interact or whatever
affect the outcome, I don't think I would be able

(13:25):
to live with myself if I don't interact. That being said,
now if I have kids with me, that's different. Yeah,
we're leaving but if it's just me.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
There's variables to it, right, And I heard you talk
about like who was with you? Yeah, you know, if
it's you, your wife and the kids, and the wife
can take the kids out, are you in a position
to go or is it going to be the better
call to escort your wife out or cover the back
of your wife and kids when they when they exit.
I hate seeing flee in this situation right because I

(13:57):
don't like the context and then go back in. Ye.
It kind of depends on where you're at and what
the response time is. Yeah, yeah, And how can you
identify yourself now to come out the backside of it.
That's quite frankly the biggest issue. And I don't know

(14:18):
if we'll get into it later on, I imagine without
seeing your notes. But if you look at the brit
and the American that were involved in events at hotels
in Africa back in the last decade, they had everything
with them that was going to make them incredibly identifiable
as to who they were, not to mention, there was
no visual similarity between them and the attackers. Then you

(14:41):
look at our Vada, Colorado, right, and that wasn't a
cop going in that situation. It was a decent, normally
human being who was not identifiable as a good guy, right,
and once he picked up the bad guy's rifle, he
had all the identification of being the bad guy in
that event. And never mind the number of cops had
been killed off d or playing clothes. Cops have been
killed in fracture side.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
Yeah, matter of fact, that was one of the things
that was brought up in the in the class a
couple of weeks ago. Was just that and the idea
that it's possible that uniformed officers might get killed by
friendly fire. Yeah, So if that's possible, if you're just
as a normal human being, don't don't count on anything.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
There is a target that I've probably used for twenty
years in shoothouses at least. It is a female officer,
blonde haired, I think, blue eyed, in a short sleeve
dark blue police uniform with clearly visible shoulder patches and badge.
And when that gets put in a shoothouse for folks

(15:48):
on their initial or maybe second evolution of doing solo
shoothouse work where there's no timer running, there's no requirement
to solve this problem an x amount of time, the
amount of holes that end up in that female officer
is disgusting. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, So with that in mind, what, in your opinion,
what are some ways people can work on this to
ensure Now we can't stop bullets coming towards us, but
we can we can control the bullets going.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
Outward from us. Paul Howe has a very solid, well
written out description of his threat identification process. I've heard
something very similar verbalized by Chuck Presburg and a couple
other guys from that lineage. Whether they describe things in

(16:41):
that the order that Paul does, I think if more
people paid attention to that, right, like looking at the
whole person, what's the demeanor, what's in the hands, what
do the hands have access to? Back to the whole
person right before that, and that factors in new area
and everything else. Right, I don't think American law enforcement

(17:08):
makes good enough use of identifiable stuff for playing clothes
cops the badge right like the on the belt or
around the neck. Okay, iMUSE agency policy. But when you
look at some of the research studies done, and there
was a good sized agency in the Midwest, I think
Kansas City, but I'm not positive right now that did

(17:29):
a bunch of work on stuff in live fire training
where they had badges on the belt, badges around the
neck of officers and just how many got hit over
time versus the officer getting the badge way up over
the head. Why because it splits the view of the hands, right, like, Hey,
what's this other thing that's not over there? People. There's
some companies out there making equipment for lack of a

(17:51):
better term, Well, it is equipment that's very clearly identifiable
as you are the police. But it's not something that's
common in all eighteen thousand law enforcement agencies. That stuff's deployable.
And it's been interesting when you look at like the Israelis,
the Europeans that deploy probably more plain closed units than

(18:11):
American law enforcement does. But having stuff that's readily identifiable
as you are the police, right knowing when that gun
doesn't need to be out anymore. Yeah, And that's not
just a lat of that other people have talked about.
It would going to a covert drawer, concealed draw where

(18:31):
you've just got to grip on the pistol that's concealed
by the rest of your clothing while moving to something
be better than having the gun in hand. Right, Yes,
I get that you can probably shave a tenth twentieth
of it or you know, ten one tenth of a second,
two tenths of a second off by having the gun
in the hand. But the problem is what what are
you risking by that? What is that by you? You

(18:57):
know a Veni study and I don't know if you've
been around and I've talked about Tom Avini stuff. He
was a New England copper who did a study for
a Michigan insurance Municipal insurance consortium on ambiguous shootings. And
one of the things he looked at was decision making
issues and stuff. And there were issues there and in
some other studies about the time you had available versus

(19:21):
pushing to get the shots off right, rushing, rushing to
get into something versus taking the time to identify it.
And you add in the nature of the response and
the behavior of the people. So there were a number
of folks that got non shoots, described non shoots that
got shot in some of a Vini stuff, But the
nature of the call and their behavior when the officer
arrived really increased the likelihood of them getting shot. You know,

(19:45):
the very aggressive turn right, a high risk call with
a very aggressive a turn turned towards them had a
lot more influence than how they came out of the
paint shop or how they were dressed. And how is
that being worked on? Right? Frankly, if you're rolling into
an active killer vent and you're hearing gunf and everything else,
and now all of a sudden somebody turns towards you

(20:05):
very aggressively with something in their hand, yeah, I can
see that being a bad outcome, regardless of who that is.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, absolutely absolutely. I had a uh an incident I
responded to not too long ago, where we're looking for
the suspect. Suspect finds us nothing violent, nothing, but he's
the piece of somewhat regular customer. He sees me and

(20:33):
immediately approaches in a manner that looks like we're about
to fight. Yeah, I've never he's never done that with me,
and so I just kind of braced and waited, Okay,
what's going to happen? Because I'm not gonna I'm not
going to start with anything, and I know he's he'll
be one to turn around and sue if if if
I did start, same thing. I see this body language,
The body language is telling me Okay, get ready to

(20:55):
draw something if necessary, and I'm going to take whatever
he's going to give. Then I'm gonna then I'm gonna
end it. But body language is so big, yeah, yeahs
a matter of fact that by itself could be a
class discussing how to Okay, let's breathe, let's calm down,
and let's let's have our body language less threatening when
it doesn't need to be well.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
And I think that goes to the meme that you'll
see about maybe we don't need to train the cops,
maybe we need to train the public mhm, because the
behavior tends to drive a lot of the stuff. Right. Yeah,
was our Vada Colorado on your list of things to
talk about? Or fracture side involving officers in other places? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (21:37):
Okay, yeah, so yeah, just the and the fracture side
isn't necessarily just officers because one of the things that
I like about this topic is even though it says
and I'm pointing at my screen, it says on and
off duty critical response. This also applies to the everyday
citizen who's Karen and firearm, because there are factors whether
I'm in uniform or I'm off duty or I'm citizen.

(22:00):
There are very similar factors that need to be considered,
and part of it is target discrimination. And so one
of the things also that I'm seeing, and I'm just
basing this off of reading media, social media, hearing opinions
and things, that there's definitely there are some divisive lines

(22:21):
being drawn, Fingers are being pointed. And one thing that
I've been saying is, you know, I'm not really too
worried about anything other than actions. I don't care about
which way you're leaning. I don't care about any of this.
What I care about are the actions, and I would hate.
And it kind of goes to an article I wrote
a long time ago, basically talking about don't respond to

(22:43):
something with misconceptions or a preconceived idea of what your
attacker is going to be. You need to be able
to positively identify this is a threat versus, Okay, this
person I might not like, or this person fits the
description of what I've been told in the media, not
necessarily the description of my suspect right now. That doesn't

(23:05):
necessarily mean they're automatically my suspect. And we need to
be more more cognizant of actions and behaviors versus.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, and if you look at some of the stuff
being reported out and being pushed out about potential upcoming events,
're back to the idea of people looking like first
responders being heavily involved in the attacks. A lot of
descriptions about trying to access uniforms. Right now, uniforms are
a whole lot easier to get than they were maybe

(23:34):
twenty thirty years ago, And so it's not a case
of you have to go burglarize the drag cleaning store
to get uniforms, right, it's going golf, yeah, or even
easier than that. Right, just make up stuff that kind
of look sort of it as agencies have gotten less
formal in their appearance. Right, If it's five eleven trousers

(23:56):
and a polo shirt and an external vest, that's really
easy to slide together. Right, it's harder than going out
and getting everything with shoulder patches, badge that looks looks
close to correct right at full uniform. So that's going
to be a consideration. If that happens here, that's going
to be very visually confusing for a whole lot of folks.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
Yeah, yeah, there.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
Might be certain giveaways like huh, I've never seen the
police with an AK forty seven before. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
And for the responding officers, what a great, great motivation
to work for small agency where you know everyone that's
going to be responding.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
No to the small agencies, so they can't integrate or
not even integrades, but they can't sneak in.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
In that agency. But by the same token, oh, we
don't have the resources. Yeah, there's the resources. What I
was thinking of. When I was a baby cop, I
worked graveyards. I worked weekend grave yards. I was pretty active.
I was in court a lot on my days off,
so I I saw a whole lot of cops in
the county, at least visually on site. I knew who
a lot of them were as I spent longer on

(25:06):
the job, especially once I promoted, and I wasn't going
to court regularly and I was working different hours, and
I wasn't going to the jail, and like I said,
and I wasn't getting subpoenas I stopped seeing a whole
lot of the officers in that county, right, So there
was a real good chance I wouldn't necessarily know someone
on site, and someone wouldn't know me on site. And
now living out here, right, I kind of find it humorous.

(25:30):
I never see the cops in the town I live in,
in the neighborhood or anyway. I see him driving around
on occasion, but like I couldn't tell you any of
them were And I've gotten on the station to ask
questions on a couple occasions, you know. I mean, there's
not a Starbucks in my dad. There is a fuzz,
But I just don't see them out places in public,

(25:51):
So I wouldn't even know them if they were involved
in something, you know. So I walked into Macy's and
something happened and they weren't a uniform, I would have
no idea that the public.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
Yeah, and that goes into the more of that target
discrimination for not only the on duty the off duty,
but also that responsible carrier. Yep, heck yeah, heck yeah.
So for you as a cough again, what are some
of the things that you have pretty much outlined as

(26:20):
you're when you when you're out the door, these are
the things that you're you're carrying with.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
You, handgun, spare magazine on me. Even when I walk
go for a walk around the neighborhood, I carry a
spare magazine, and it's it's not because I think I'm
going to be taking on the Fifth Mongolian Horde. It's
because of stoppages. Yeah, that's what it's there for if
I if I get a stoppage that I have to
discard the mag on. That's what it's there. Can I flashlight?

(26:45):
I'm trying to get better about carrying at least a
little bit of medical on me all the time. It
kind of just depends on what I'm wearing. I've got
one of the Filster small medkits and what's that snake
systems that's out here? That as a small tourniquet. I'm
under no illusion that's the best Q on the market.
That's not a shot on that. It's just relatively small.
But it's what I can have on me easily.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
Now that being said though, And a flashlight. Yeah, that
being said though, how much medical training have you had
throughout your career?

Speaker 3 (27:14):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (27:14):
God? EMT worked on the Ambulance Multiple Research Condact, Life
Saver TA Triple C.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
Because where I'm going with this is of the stuff
that you carry, can you think of okay? Oh now
even flashlight? Maybe pocket knife? What is it that you
carry that anyone can carry without any prior training. I
would think with a tourniquet, you need to know how.

Speaker 2 (27:40):
To use it.

Speaker 1 (27:41):
You need to know application, you.

Speaker 2 (27:42):
Need to know how to you know, you need to
know how to get down to bare skin to use
a chess seal, right, Israeli trauma dressing, probably not, but
you at least need to know how it goes on right,
once you rip, once you rip the covering, the pouches in,
how that goes on right, how you secure it so well?

Speaker 1 (28:04):
And that was one of the one of the fun
things early on in my career that I would do
is the Israeli dressing. Perfect example, buy an extra one
so I can take it apart and figure out how
to use it, versus just carry them and have no idea.
And that's okay, it's it's gonna be. It's going to
be ten extra bucks. Was it ten bucks?

Speaker 2 (28:23):
I don't remember how much it was.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
It was a little bit more money.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
Was it worth it?

Speaker 1 (28:26):
Oh heck yeah, I have an outer idea of what
it's able to do.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
The good news is most of the medical supply companies
are making dummy stuff. Right, Okay, here's the folded gods
with you know with the coagulate ag agent into it
that you can now actually shove into a hole in
something and practice it right. Here's addressing that you can
roll back up and now you can't resecure the whole packaging,
but it gives you something that you can now open, unfold,

(28:51):
practice putting on. Right. They've got dummy trainer tourniquits. Yeah,
but again you have to have some type of training
with them.

Speaker 1 (28:58):
And the nice thing And I think it might have
been it wasn't Gary, Maybe it was. It was either
Gary Hughes or it was Andy Fisher, basically talking about
when a few years ago people have tourniquits as part
of their their personality. We're a little we're beyond that
though a bit. But replacing those tourniquits, especially like I

(29:21):
have one on an outer carrier due to uv uh,
it's it's in, it's in the sunlight all the time.
It needs to be rotated on occasion to train with
a practice tournique versus the real one. Kind of important
because I want to have when I need it. It
needs a function.

Speaker 2 (29:40):
Kind of depends on which one you use too, as
I understand it right, Some with more plastic in it
might want to have a trainer some with more metal.
Maybe you can get away with that.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
Yeah, now my chat seven's right, those those the windlass
becomes brittle due to exposure, exposure use. Yeah, yeah, but
this is part of a functional system and it's not
just slap it on and then you're good to go.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
That's just stress up.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
If that's what's going on, if you don't have prior training,
if you're not working at this stuff, if you're not
thinking about it.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
This is dressful, just a little one with a tourniquet.
Is it more important to take all the slack out
or tighten the wind list? Now, all that slack has
to come out completely out before you start tightening it up.
But if that's not something you've been exposed to, you
may not know. Yeah, and there are there's at least
one version one tournique out now that specifically will tell

(30:38):
you if you've taken the slack out or not the
way it's designed. Oh, it's all the slacks out. There's
a part of it that disappears, and so when you
see that section of webbing gone, like okay, now all
the slacks out. Now we can start spinning the wind list.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
And in my applications, and they've all been in training.
But take out the slack. It's not very many rotations.
They tighten up pretty quick and they are fairly uncomfortable.
Done correctly, yes, yeah, but also firearms, getting the proper
firearms training. How many instructors are out there, and I

(31:16):
can think of a couple at the top of my
head that have or or currently offer some kind of
force on force. I know Craig Douglas, John dufrayin, I'm
sure Fisher does, Carl Rendez, I don't think Steve does.
Will and Chase are set up to do it. Most
of the good insurance providers cover it if you have

(31:38):
a background in it. The issue more is the sheer
quantity of equipment you need to buy for it in
order to do it correctly.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
Right. So you've got to have the helmets, you've got
to have the throat guards. I'm agnostic on the chest
stuff because when I went through my first SIMS instructure
class in nineteen ninety four, nobody, nobody was thank you,
nobody was even thinking about the chess guards, right. It
was just it was gloves, a cup, the throat guard
and the mask and go out. But you know, having

(32:11):
all of those things and be able to you know,
support it. And then the safety protocols, which getting people
to follow the safety protocols is a whole nother issue.
And then you start looking at it doing it in
numbers that can support a patrol response right because it's
you know, or an individual response, because it's going to

(32:31):
be patrol SWAT's going to get there to clear the
structure after the fact, even in places with a full
time team.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
And I'm hoping as people are listening to this, we
talked about some of these concepts that you need to
train up for. Force on force is a fantastic opportunity
to figure out where you're at right and if you're
not taking advantage of it, I definitely urge please do it.
Please do it, because it gives you a whole new
perspective of well. Scenario training by itself is fantastic because

(33:04):
you have a good idea of depending on the instructor,
depending on the curriculum, depending on the circumstances. But I'm
thinking of the Craig Douglas stuff, and now I have
not attended one of Craig's classes yet I've heard nothing
but good things. I've been to tons of darcy obviously,
but good force on force, good simulated incidents, such a

(33:25):
great opportunity to see. Okay, how's your thinking? What are
you focused on? Good?

Speaker 2 (33:33):
No, I'm just going to say it has to be
well structured. You need to have very well rehearsed, trained
role players that can actually follow directions. One of the
things in Craig's class. Craig very tightly controls that role
player and has no problem addressing it when it doesn't happen.
Carl Renn has probably the only non governmental Force on

(33:58):
Force instructor class that I know of that's geared towards
working with decent, normally humans. If I was doing more
of it, it would be on the shortlist. Right. There's
some things I would like to be able to use
it for, but at this point I just don't have
the class volume to justify the equipment to support that.
So those things get worked in other ways.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
Yeah, So, Chuck, basically what we've been talking about, we've
been talking about there is an overlap between on duty,
off duty and responsible armed citizen when it comes to
response to critical incidents. We talked about needed equipment. We
talked about how unless you have training with some of

(34:40):
this needed equipment. It's stress up. So Chuck for you,
what are some of the things that as you're going
out the door? What are the things that you need
to have with you.

Speaker 3 (34:53):
With the candat depends on where I'm going, on where
you're going.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
Yeah, let's just say average day.

Speaker 3 (34:59):
Average day like today. The last time I left the house,
I was with jim shorts and a T shirt, fanny
pack forty three x, a reload at a palm, my
wall of my credentials, and folly knife my vehicle because

(35:20):
I'm not going to be like, you know, in Wyoming
or something and I'm in town. My vehicle has things
like a med kit, stashtacks or AMMO things like that,
so I'm not in a position leaving the house in
town where I might have to you know, book an

(35:42):
ELI back to the house because okay, that's going to
take an hour. So you know, how much gear do
I need? I got good shoes, I'm okay, Yeah, weather
might change that that sort of thing. But I'm amused
by the fact that fannings are suddenly wildly back in

(36:02):
style because it.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
Didn't use medication, but I was.

Speaker 3 (36:07):
Using a fanny pack back when they were cool, like
the first time, which I think is two generations of
fanny pack in the past, when like Hulk Hogan was
wearing one, things like that.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
Did you stay eagle or something else? Mindset galco okay
at year's result.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
If you remember the the he had, he had the
little grab tab and he had the double zipper that
would unzip it, had the neoprene holster that was in there.
My sixteen nine oh six was my fanny pack gun
back then because it was hammerless and I felt pretty
good in a pseudo holster carrying that thing on safe

(36:46):
and I had a magazine adapter, so sixteen rounds in
the gun. But at any rate, I remember one time
I was heading into the station when I would as
lt to go use our workout room at the station
was like it was a little bit too small to

(37:08):
open professionally, but it was just about to that point
where you could open it. As you know, with the
equipment you could legit deadlift cardio, et cetera, et cetera,
a full suite of free weights all that. So I
would use the gym at the station in the basement
of the station regularly. I'm walking in and two of

(37:29):
my dudes are coming up the stairs. I can tell
they just left the gym. They're coming up the stairs
after having worked out, and I'm headed down where they're going. Hey, lt,
how's it going. And one of them is going to
bust my balls and says, nice fanny pack. And they
were getting ready to walk out onto the street, and
I looked them over and I knew they basically had

(37:52):
and so I said, well, with this fanny pack, I
am prepared for a lot of things, including because had
a flashlight with me. I can emergency search a building.
I can respond to an active shooter. I could take
a prisoner of like a felon in progress or something
like that. I could defend myself, I could defend others,

(38:13):
whereas all you guys can do is run around screaming
like little bitches, waiting for help to arrive. And they
were very crestfallen at that, because well, the nice fanny
pack had like horribly.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
Backfired, and they're back yeah, And.

Speaker 3 (38:39):
Which gives a certain I have a little tiny one now,
a little hill people gear bag, and it looks unlike
my old Galco fanny pack, which screamed I'm a doe
with a gun. Yep, it just was what it was,
even though I had the blue one instead of the
ubiquitous black. But the Hill People gear bag looks just

(39:01):
like the bags. Like every twenty something chick on the
planet in America is carrying right.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
Now, So you know, if I'm carried across the shoulder,
he does.

Speaker 3 (39:12):
Sometimes I do.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
That's what my daughter does.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
I used to do that with the galco if I
had to do something like move fast or if I
was going to be in a crowd or something like that,
because it was just like the draw from my tanker
holster back in the olden days, which I wore my
tanker holster when I was doing armored cavalry stuff. But
I also figured out it was a hell of a
good outdoor holster when I was deer hunting. It was

(39:39):
underneath the coat, so how accessible is it diving through
the top of the coat try to get to a
pistol that's protected from the weather. It was that was
one of my go to utility holsters there for a
while for certain jobs. But the reach and the drawstroke
was very similar.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
What improvements have you seen with them since you had
your first generation second generation? I'm guessing the second generation
were black with neon paint splatter designs on them.

Speaker 3 (40:11):
I skipped the whole pseudo Miamivice thing.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
Okay, but he was not age though, but he did
skip it. Yeah that back to the original DeSantis where
the bottom was sewn and the three sides were velcrow,
not even zipper.

Speaker 3 (40:27):
Yeah, then he had the DeSantis and the Uncle Mike's
were very similar where he had to rip the velcrow.
I found those so often was about a ten second
draw because of how clinging the bell crow could be.
I stuck with the Galco just because it was basically

(40:48):
what I could source in the early days, you know,
one before Al Gore invented the Internet, and then at
the dial up phase of the internet, shopping was still
not what it is today, you know. But the gear
has improved, like everything, the gear, the gear is so
much Holsters are so much better now. Gun belts are

(41:11):
so much better now. Not there there weren't good holsters
back in the day. Like you can still buy a
milk Sparks and it's going to be it's going to
be a you know, very quality holster, but one size
fits all is gone. Really good belts, really good holsters,
specialty holsters, ability to adapt your gear, modular your gear,

(41:33):
the quality of the fanny packs, the small fanny packs,
and then the fact that you know the concealed I
tell people, I don't know if we're in conceal carry
culture two point zero or three point zero, but the
original one started in the eighteen hundreds, and then we've
forgot all the lessons learned back then. But for a

(41:54):
while there, if you think about it, before, you know,
things like the colding nineteen oh three had basically disappeared
post World War Two, and then it took a while
for things to start taking off, like the car PM nine.
You know when that that was groundbreaking when it when
it first came out, there was a whole there was

(42:15):
a whole period of time where if you wanted to
seriously carry a concealed gun, it was going to be
a jframe or you were going to get like hipster
and carry a PPK or something, And there wasn't there
wasn't a whole lot available out there. And I think
some of these really small guns, like I'm carrying a

(42:35):
forty three X in my fanny pack. That gun is
in a size envelope that mimics a Cold Detective Special
whilst in it's thinner or the same size but less weight.
Is like a Cold nineteen oh three or you know
Browning nineteen ten, things like that, which were absolutely superb

(42:57):
concealed carry pistols. Now I've got the let and rounds
a plus p nine milimeter on tap. There's a lot
to say for that in a little bit. You know,
my fanny peg is like that big instead of the
like the Eagle packs or something like that.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
With a full size bread in ninety two. Yeah and
three megs.

Speaker 3 (43:23):
I have an oridge. I still have an original Tommy's
gunpack that I can put a block thirty four with
a light and an optic in it. I don't know
why you would want to do that, but it makes
a pretty good good like handy carry bag for it.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
That's just for it's a range back.

Speaker 2 (43:42):
Yeah. I got rid of that DeSantis fairly quickly stumbled
into an Eagle, getting my jobs busted about it. Well
one point tried to find a way to camouflage it,
and I'm like, oh, look at that north Face logo
on the bottom of a stuff sack. Cut it off,
took it to the cop shop, so and on. They're like,
there's gonna be an issue. Nobody's going to care. I've

(44:03):
walked into the North Faced store in Berkeley with that.
They're like, what did we make those years ago? I
don't remember, you know, it's like thirty years on.

Speaker 3 (44:14):
That very limited run.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
Yeah, but it's if that's all I get, right, Like,
I get a second and a half, I gets somebody thinks
it's a legit fanny pack, Like, hey, cool, I'll take it.
But now it's a Kelty sling bag, one of their
purpose built ones. That's that's built with the velcrow and
the attachments on the inside and multiple pouches, and that
a spare maga dressing my keys, my wall at a flashlight. Okay.

Speaker 1 (44:39):
The one thing that I've run into that I've found
to be a problem with hill people gear is it
the stuff that I always want is out of stock.
But they make fantastic stuff.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
They designed fantastic stuff for Spear Souls, so yeah, yeah,
which is the old Egle Crew for essentially.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
Yeah. My secret for picking up exactly what I wanted
was I happened to be teaching in Grand Junction for
a Girl and a Gun National Seminar their storefront is there.
So I walked in and it was sitting right there.
So I walked out with it. Yep, because I have
the what is it? The like my fanny pack is

(45:17):
the black multi cam, which is I guess highly in
demand and hardly get it.

Speaker 1 (45:22):
Isn't that Darryl's I thought, that's Darryl's pattern.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
That's why I said what I said.

Speaker 3 (45:29):
Daryl likes it a bit.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
But for.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
I have a black multikam d C built that east
Ridge Maiden, and then I have the matching fanny pack.
So if I kept going, I could have a whole
you know, coordinated outfit of that.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
You should you should.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
So chuck in all of your your lectures, your teachings
and things like that. Where as your where have your
lessons diverged between off duty officers and everyday citizens? For
response to critical response?

Speaker 2 (46:10):
Are they pretty close?

Speaker 3 (46:16):
So in the moment, like if you're in a shootout,
you're in a shootout, but let's say you were in
or near I don't know for one of them. You
know a better example active shooter event you guys still there?

Speaker 1 (46:39):
Yeah, you seem to freeze every couple of minutes for
my entire screen went black.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
Somewhere here.

Speaker 3 (46:49):
Okay, can you guys see me.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
A still picture of you?

Speaker 1 (46:53):
But we can hear you just fine now because my
screen is black.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
Gotcha.

Speaker 3 (46:58):
I don't know. I have no idea what just happened?

Speaker 1 (47:01):
You broke the internet?

Speaker 3 (47:04):
Well, I'm looking to see.

Speaker 1 (47:09):
And as an aside, on the hill People gear site
right now, there is a Grouse blue and multicam black
snubby belt pack right now. What is grouse blue? That's
just a nice blue, just kind of a neutral blue.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
It's like cerrillium blue. Is it going to be an
X Files Exerts episode?

Speaker 1 (47:31):
I don't know about that.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
It's just blue, Okay, I use it medium blue? Is
it dark blue?

Speaker 1 (47:40):
It's a nice blue. That's the best I can tell you.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
You're trying to be a chief of that department.

Speaker 3 (47:47):
It almost looks like almost looks sort of teal to me.
But oh, I'm bad. I'm bad at like girl colors,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
Let's see if I can share this screen.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
I'm googling it right now. It's this, Oh okay, medium blue?
All right?

Speaker 1 (48:09):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (48:10):
But also this is available too.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
I don't know for me if I'm going to go
this route, I want the blue, yeah, because everything else
kind of to me looks I could, I could probably
get away with the gray, but everything else kind of
looks a little too. That guy has a gun.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Well, that elk stuff in the right place, That that
elk color way they have in the right you know,
if you're in a rural area, Yeah, like outside of
a suburb, okay, where it's carhart it's the loose right,
that doesn't look like coyote does It's just enough different
that it's not coyote though.

Speaker 1 (48:56):
This No, this is not the direction I want to go.
And that's multiicam. And I also I don't want it
to be read because I don't want I don't want
to stand out because I typically don't.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
Wear red well. And that just screams. That just screams med. Medical.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
Yeah, why is that guy walking around with a medical
kid on?

Speaker 2 (49:18):
That's weird.

Speaker 3 (49:20):
I think I might have to uh log back in.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
Sure I got to end up taking an ankle medkid
into a baseball game? Really? Yeah? I could not figure
out first off, like they didn't know if it was
legal or not, and then they had no idea why
I was carrying it.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
Let's see, let's see here where is the best thing
they've ever made, and I will never change my mind.

Speaker 2 (49:53):
Is it under garments?

Speaker 1 (49:55):
I've heard great I've heard great things about the wind cheater.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yeah, I've got one. It's it's worth it.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
This is my favorite, the Mountain Serape, and my kids
love it too.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
Yeah. I've just got a Kafaro Woobie and.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
I have one of those two. That's great for in
the house. Well, actually this is great for in the
house too.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
Good people, good stuff. I'm a fan.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
They've been on the podcast a couple of times. Well,
I think what I'm going to do is I'm going
to hit stop sharing. I think what I'm going to
do is I'm going to run the ads really quick. Oh,
Chuck's back. I'm going to run ads really quick. This
will be a minute, and I don't remember how much

(50:46):
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Speaker 2 (52:39):
And we are back.

Speaker 3 (52:40):
So.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
One of the things that Chuck brought up just now
was the use of a fanny pack, and one of
the huge benefits I see from that is it is
less clothing dependent. So for me, I am wearing a
specific type of pant. Normally it's some form of vertex.
I have some form either the gun is in a
pocket or it's in a waistband. Then I have support

(53:01):
equipment that I've determined what pockets it goes to. That's
that might be a little yeah, that's that's my normal routine.
I always have. The flashlight is always left hand along
my leg reload is always also left hand, same with end.
Medical is typically left hand as well.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
But all this.

Speaker 1 (53:23):
Organization, and if I'm not wearing the right type of
clothes that allows for this, it kind of sucks and
then I have to stack everything in the same pocket
or something like that. Whereas if any pack has the
ability to carry all the stuff I need and simple easy.
Though with that, how much training is involved to help

(53:47):
you become proficient with it, That's a question.

Speaker 3 (53:51):
One unexplored part of it. Even if you're not going
to wear it on a day to day basis. But
if you travel a lot, if you if you're not
going to do the big nightstand dump that is so
popular for people to post, you know, you could take
your pistol, your cell phone, whatever, all that goes into
your fanny pack on the nightstand in the hotel room.

(54:15):
And if you have one of those wake up in
the middle of the night fire alarm type things or
something like that, you can literally grab that and go
like like a go bag, have all your crap together
and you conceivably need Like I had an incident happen
where there was a fire alarm and then the building

(54:37):
lost power, so I had to navigate down the stairs,
utilize in a flashlight, got out of the car, have
my conceal carry, have IOC, have my wallet, have my
car keys so I could get into my car, had
some emergency cash with me in case, you know, some
weird appen I had to go find someplace else to go,

(54:59):
that kind of thing. So it was set in the
car for twenty minutes and uh, you know, wait for
the fire department to clear the building, things like that.
But you know, being able to grab Jim Shore's T shirt,
my shoes and fanny pack and go and be set

(55:20):
for what if I have to go someplace else for
the night, what if, you know, whatever the case may be,
because when you wake up in unfamiliar places sometimes you're
a little discombobulated. But just as a tool for that,
fanning pack's a really useful thing to have. But I'll
also like when I'm doing going to jiu jitsu, I
can't go into a dodger's appointment. I can take the

(55:43):
whole thing off without a bunch of drama, like I'm
pulling my gun out of my hole shirt and things
like that if I if I you know, need like
for an exam, or I'm putting my gee on or
something like that, that kind of thing. So super handy
thing to have available to you. Do I carry like
that all the time. No, But it's super headyy to

(56:05):
have for you know, like pass it mission drives a gear.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
Train yep, yep.

Speaker 1 (56:14):
And so for me, where I have these set ways
of doing things, if I were to add a Fannie pack, okay,
that opens up more options. But with those additional options,
that does also mean I need to dedicate some time
to training so I get familiar with access, because again,
if I'm carrying something without training, it's stress up. Don't
anticipate to be proficient or familiar with whatever you're caring

(56:37):
if you haven't trained with it. On duty, I'm carrying
a lot of stuff. Off duty, I'm caring considerably less stuff,
but I still need to cover some basics. I don't
I personally don't or I don't carry cuffs off duty.
And I also don't carry a baton. I sometimes karayos,

(56:58):
but not very often. I should medical though that's a
fairly common a reload of firearm, flashlight and a knife
keys while it's done.

Speaker 3 (57:09):
I CARRYO S pretty religiously because you know, I've got
a long history of using it on duty. It's been
very very effective in my experience, and I've had a
few cases. I had to use it about a month
ago in the park across the street from my house, yoh.

Speaker 2 (57:30):
So we need to talk about your choice of hangouts.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
Yeah, maybe it's time to move move, do you tell me?

Speaker 3 (57:37):
Well, Unfortunately, my city is horribly mismanaged and they have
letting you know, t Peka is trying to be Laurence
Lawrence is trying to be Austin. Austin's trying to be
San Francisco. So some of the like meted out homeless
people wandering through your neighborhood, things like that is a

(57:57):
very real thing. So yeah, and I moved a lot
earlier in my life, like my dad was in the army.
We moved thirteen times the first sixteen years I was alive.
And this house is paid off, has been for a
long time. So I'm not ready to pull up stakes yet.

(58:18):
What I am ready to do is for my city
leaders to you know, I was going to drop a
couple of f bombs there, but I'll not do that.
But they need to fix things.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
Yeah, So for you carrying both a firearm and OC,
are you carrying them in separate places, separate locations, not
necessarily so you don't mix them up, but so you
don't draw attention to something you don't want to have
attention drawn to.

Speaker 3 (58:47):
Very typically, and the palm is very easy to incorporate,
which has become my go to for like the little
DC type of pepper spraylogy is palm is the original
palm muted is that Ruger LCP of pepper sprays. You
can incorporate a Ruger l CP into any mode of carry.

(59:11):
You can ankle carry it, you can inside the waistband,
you can cope pocket. Technically, you could figure out a
way to conceal carry a Ruger LCP underswim trunks on
the beach while you're wearing nothing else. You know, you can,
you can have it with you. Is it the biggest
easiest to shoot? Et cetera, et cetera. No, Is it

(59:34):
like a rule one gun oc analogy? Yes it is.
Does it allow me to have something between a harsh
word and a gun, so that you know, one of
the maxims I used to put out to the cops,
because we're talking about comparisons in training, as I figured
out a long time ago that if you use enough
force early, correctly, competently, it will save you from having

(59:58):
to use more force later to dig yourself out of
a hole. The incident that I used to refer to
in recruit school when I was teaching, that was the
sad case of Deputy Kyle Dinkkeller. And if you remember
that video where he stops the truck, has running with
the guy, I'm a Vietnam combat veteran FU There's there's

(01:00:21):
an exchange back and forth. Eventually the guy goes back
to the truck and it turns into a gunfight. That
deputy loses running gun battle. And every time, you know,
we'll watch that video, all the cops in the room
and in service are like, why isn't he shooting him?
Why isn't he shooting him? Why did Why didn't he
shot him? Why did he shoot him?

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
Now?

Speaker 3 (01:00:42):
And my premise to you is that that's the wrong question.
Why didn't he use effective physical force when it was
at a low level encounter, it was an assault on
an officer and not a gunfight, because he could have
used OC. He could have used his fists. The the
deputy was a big dude. He could have punched him

(01:01:03):
in the face and bear hugged him and dropped him
in the ditch and the problem wouldn't have been solved.
Why did he let it degenerate into a gunfight that
never should have happened. And my civilian analogy to that
is George Zimmerman at some point before it turned into
a ground fight, that George was getting ground and pounded

(01:01:24):
and he was in reasonable fear of death or great
bodily harm, that the court agreed with his assessment, and
it became a fatal shooting at some point in there.
If he had done something like applied jiu jitsu or
pepper spray, and let's say George Zimmerman had pepper spray
Dramon Martin back off called nine one one, would you
have ever heard of George Zimmerman or Trayvon Martin?

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
Most likely not.

Speaker 3 (01:01:47):
Now. If you heard a news story on the news
and said two guys had a verbal dispute, one of
them pepper sprayed the other one, he would wonder why
the news was reporting on it because it would be
a non incident. So we typically often have these opportunities
to do true de escalation. De Escalation is not just

(01:02:10):
I'm going to talk nice endlessly, I'm going to give
you a hug and a bunny. Often the correct use
of force at the correct time is de escalation. You
can take this to the highest degree. Arguably, you're one
of the officers rolling into Columbine and you come across

(01:02:32):
Cleebold and Harris standing over a pile of teenagers with
smoking shotguns. What's your only correct course of action to
shoot them immediately as quickly as possible. Why? Because tea
trible ced trip principles apply the minute you and the threat.
Now we can do trauma first aid unmolested by gunfire.

(01:02:53):
So you have just de escalated the scenario. So the
correct action at the correct time, really on competently applied
is de escalation.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:06):
So I like to have something between a harsh ord
and a gun.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
Yeah yeah, So where you carry it though, I'm guessing
it's away from your firearm?

Speaker 3 (01:03:19):
Yeah, Well, so it wouldn't.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
Be inside the fanny pack.

Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
On my duty belt. My Peppers ray was always immediately
in front of my pistol because my magazines were opposite
my pistol, and we didn't if you start my career
with the revolvers, that's where my speedloaders would have gone.
But we didn't get OC in law enforcement until we
had my job, until we were switching to semi auto pistols,

(01:03:49):
So I always had the OC in front of the
gun because twenty five years of night shift, I always
had a flashlight in the left hand off duty. When
the pocket o C stuff became available, I have been
carrying a folding knife clipped on my right front pants
pocket since I was twelve years old. I wasn't willing

(01:04:12):
to mess with that many reps in that many decades
of work, so it got clipped inside my left front
pants pocket, so it will be congruent there. If I've
got a fannyback on, my palm will be in my
left Jim shorts pocket. If I'm were in pants, it'll
be or shorts, you know, regular like cargo shorts, something

(01:04:33):
like that. It will be inside that pocket. And then
I practice my draw stroke. I can pull spray left handed,
but what I would typically I also practice how I
draw it from the pocket and I do a transfer
into my strong hand, so I practice my draw stroke
as it were. The carry of OC is not as

(01:04:54):
developed as things like pistols, where you can pull off
you know the subsecond raw and you know you have
quick access gear that that pre stages it. So each
of us has to work out our own tactics and
our own mode to carry that can change with from
outfit to outfit, particularly if you're a lady. But there's

(01:05:16):
also you know, you got pocket clip options. You can
carry a clip to the pocket inside the pocket, you
can carry it on a key chain mode, things like that.
So there's there's ways to incorporate it into your into
your e d C. And unlike firearms, it's pretty cheap
to get more than one unit and apply it if
you need to, you know, change clothes, you're wearing a

(01:05:36):
different outfit for the day, or something like that. You know,
often when I'm doing something like walking my dogs, I'll
have a bigger like m K three size unit. You know,
you hear about the incidents where like a pible got
out and like ate some lady's poodle or something like that.

(01:05:57):
I have rat terriers, I have small dogs. If I
needed to defend my dogs from a bigger dog, my
analogy would be the use of bear spray. Bear spray
is a big canister, bears a big target. If I
shrieked the target from a bear down to a dog,
I can shrink my bear spray down to something that'll
fit in my pocket, even though it's kind of bulky.

(01:06:18):
So when I walk my dogs. I'll use something like
an m K three, which is the same size of
OC that I carried out duty for decades. That is more,
O C carry is more. You have to figure out
your own salvation from you know, best practices as it were.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
And get the training.

Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
You don't train OC though, do you?

Speaker 3 (01:06:43):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
No, that's he does.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
But again, if you're carrying it, you suld unless other
than a pocket knife and your keys and your wallet.
Though some people probably need some training with their wallets. Yeah, firearms, medical,
even flashlights. There's some cool stuff with flashlights if you're
around it enough or if you get training all this stuff.

(01:07:10):
Without that training, it's kind of giving up for chance.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
So for you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
Guys, when you're teaching this kind of stuff, are there
any mindset things that are common between the off duty
carrier and the responsible gun owner in responding to anything
like this? What are the underlying lessons? Obviously the big
one in Eric and I discussed it earlier, there's a
good possibility you will be shot, not necessarily from the

(01:07:39):
bad guy, but from other carriers or other officers.

Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
I think the first one just goes back to the
acceptance that it can happen. Yeah, like you have no
control over this. Right, you're going to get a safe
potentially how the outcome goes, but on the initiation, like
you have to accept that it's going to happen. It's
like a car stop going bad, right, or anything else
that that's the starting point. If you could have all

(01:08:05):
the all the tools on you, but if regardless of
where you get your paycheck from, if you don't understand
that really bad things can happen and there's terrible people
on this planet, then when it kicks off, it won't matter. Right.
I can't remember that. It wasn't Cooper, but there was.
There was somebody who basically did a video on mental

(01:08:27):
preparation and they were like, yeah, I knew this was
going to happen. Okay, cool and away we go, right,
just because of the how long it takes to catch
up to it, right, the awareness of what's going on
around you and not having not having ever have kids.
I don't know how much bandwidth that takes in public,
but I can only imagine that trying to keep keep

(01:08:48):
track of little ones in public dumps a whole lot
more of your bandwidth onto those knee high, pocket high
critters you know that are probably like double arms length
away from you, then what's going on fifteen feet away?
So you know you have to balance that stuff out.
But I think it all goes back to, yeah, Okay,
I accept that this can happen. I don't want it,

(01:09:09):
but I accept that it can happen.

Speaker 3 (01:09:14):
Uncompleted thought I had earlier, Matt, was a difference between
on duty off duty armed citizen. Is when I was
going to talk about like active shooter event. Yeah, obviously
we want on duty guys to roll to the sound
of the guns. That's what we expect. And what I
find is high performance and law enforcement will do that

(01:09:37):
on their own time as well, and then perhaps they
are not as equipped for that event as they would
be if they were on duty. So if you are,
especially if you're if you don't have a badge, and
I would say that your number one, your number one
criteria would be to e and e out of there.

(01:09:59):
Get you, your family, your loved ones out of that scenario.
That's a win.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
We talked about that one early on, Chuck, And like versus,
no one's with you, you know, spouse and kids are
with you, kids are with you, where you have to
get them out yourself? Right, spouse and kids are with you.
Where does spouse go with the kids? Do you cover right?
And then go back in? You know what do you
do right? So we kick that well.

Speaker 3 (01:10:23):
Going going back to what you guys were talking about
and my Force on Force uh experience running a lot
of recruit schools in service and then a number of
years working with stratagos on active shooter and shrutter courses.
I could tell you if you're an active shooter, particularly

(01:10:45):
if you are not in uniform, doesn't matter the capacity detective, narc,
off duty cop, concealed carry person, if you are in
If you insert yourself into that scenario with a gun
on your hand, you're ends up getting shot. Whether you
believe that they should do a bit of whatever, your

(01:11:06):
odds are extremely high. You're a I tell people all
the time.

Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:11:14):
One of my analogies is do pedestrians have a right
away in a crosswalk? Yes? They do. If you step
out in front of a cement truck, did that matter?
It did not matter? You're done and then we could
argue about it in the AAR after the fact, in
the lawsuits and things like that. But having run a
lot of Force on force, I have seen well constructed

(01:11:38):
scenarios where just as an example, where training we used
to give to the recruits who are trying to give
them get them to sort things out, get them experience
to sort things out. And part of how to put
this I stole from rich Rich Mason at Darcy. And
he doesn't believe in the simmunition thing where everybody's a

(01:11:59):
winner and you always near scenario and if you don't like,
if you flunk the scenario, then we put you back
through so that you could be a winner in in
he didn't believe in that. He believes in you should
be emotionally attached to the f UP and I agree
with that in that I have seen that rectify. We
had a scenario we do in recruit school. They already

(01:12:20):
had one run through, the active shooter scenario back when
we were still having to do four man contact teams.
Just you know, with the time and resources things like that,
we couldn't run it over and over again as a
solo responder, even though you guys know I'm a big
believer in that. But we had him run to a
scenario typically they do well because we're kind of ramping

(01:12:44):
it up. The next scenario was I give him their brief.
You just heard radio traffic from the SRO at the
high school. He says he has shots fired in a building,
possible active shooter. So what do you know? What was
your what do you what was your source of information?
This wasn't dispatch, this was the SRO at the school.

(01:13:05):
So we'd tell them that in the little brief and go.
And in that scenario, they hit the hallway long haul.
They here machine gun fire at the end of the hallway.
Dude ducks out in the hallway, sees them, throws a
shot their way, and then ducks down the l hallway
keeps going. So they're high speed moving, moving down the

(01:13:25):
hallway to contact. Halfway down the hall a dude steps
out with a gun in his hand. It's the SRO
gun belt police patch. You know. That's back when we
still wore you know, undervest, should badge on the shirt
name tag, the whole bit. We had the pants with
the yellow, the golden stripe, you know, the uniform Class

(01:13:49):
A uniform pants. What do you think happened? Hail shot
one hundred percent of the time of the time. Sometimes
one recruit would see him and freeze and somebody else
would shoot him. But he got shot one hundred percent
of time, so we started thinking, oh my god, what
do we do? How do we get him to stop this?

(01:14:11):
So how we got them to stop that was we
let it happen, And it be in recruit school back
when I used to have attribute attributes like hair on
my head and you know, cartilage of my knees that
I no longer possess. But we would go outside and
we would talk about how everybody in the recruit class

(01:14:33):
had failed at every single every single run, they killed
this guy. So then we would do push ups until
I got tired, and then we would reset. What do
you think didn't happen? Ever again for the rest of
Force on Force.

Speaker 1 (01:14:47):
Week, better target discrimination, do that.

Speaker 3 (01:14:53):
So I learned that lesson. It wasn't till later that
I had read Paul Hausberg A Leadership and Tree for
the Fight, and he talked about it. He had Delta
guys shooting at Delta guys because they had a gun
in her hand and they were over on that roof
and they're supposed to be on this roof, except we
got misdirected that kind of thing. So like, man, Delta

(01:15:15):
guys shoot at Delta guys. So what do we got
to do. We have to teach specific methodology to threat identify.
I tell you what even if we so we quit
shooting people in uniform, et cetera, et cetera. But man
in in a live scenario, if you insert yourself in
there and playing clothes and you're running around with the

(01:15:36):
gun in your hand, your odds are getting shot are
extraordinarily high, even from people that know you.

Speaker 2 (01:15:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:46):
This so reminds me of a conversation I had with
my daughter about her getting her license. Honey, I'm not
worried about you driving. I'm worried about all the others.
I'm not worried about you, as you responding, I'm worried
about all the other people that will shoot you.

Speaker 2 (01:16:00):
You're worried about one car dot ten thousand.

Speaker 1 (01:16:02):
Yeah, okay, hmmm. Force on force. There's something scenario training,
there's something there.

Speaker 3 (01:16:18):
Like Eric said, well constructed, well good actors. I've seen
scenarios where in the first run it's like an arm
robbery at the convenience store, and then the address four scenarios,
five scenarios in Now it's like a Mumbai terrorist incident

(01:16:39):
and you got ninjas in the ceiling with machine guns
things like that. You can't let it deteriorated to that
type of clownery. That that that is important. So like
any other tool, force on force can be a very
valuable adjunct to your training if it's properly constructed and

(01:17:01):
correctly done. Otherwise it's just like grab astic paintball.

Speaker 2 (01:17:06):
Yep, yep.

Speaker 1 (01:17:08):
Well and that and as you mentioned, Darcy, Darcy is
one of my absolute favorite places to train, and part
of it is because of the OP four. They are
so well scripted and so well controlled, and the scenarios
are completely controlled, and what a great opportunity to see
what you're what you're capable of, and to work through problems,
and it's just fantastic. I went through Level one Alert

(01:17:32):
instructor a few months ago. One of the things that
they were doing, or one of the one of the
instructors specifically did that I really appreciated is he was
integrating off duty response with on duty response. Everyone's dressed normally,
So on this scenario you're responding as an off duty officer,
do you normally carry a tourniquet?

Speaker 2 (01:17:54):
No, give me your tourniquet. Okay?

Speaker 1 (01:17:56):
Do you normally carry a spare Mac. Spare Mac. Now, okay,
give me your mac. Do you carry a gun? Okay,
you're going to be carrying a gun this time, but
basically catering the scenario to the individual. And when the
scenario is halfway through, when you get to that point
where okay, we've stopped the killing, now we need to
stop the dying. And if you're ill equipped, Oh that's

(01:18:19):
kind of a lesson. Oh crap, I don't have the
right tools.

Speaker 3 (01:18:22):
Seem free to tell me that they would if you
don't normally carry a gun, they'd take your gun away
and stick you in a scenario they should they that
would be an awesome treating moment.

Speaker 1 (01:18:34):
Go and respond. No, I'm going to just call little sidebar.

Speaker 2 (01:18:39):
Longtime buddy of mine used to run an IDPA club
and every about once a year he would do a
match where he would meet them in the parking lot
and however they got out of the car was how
the first stage started. Oh, that's awesome. You don't carry
a gun on you because it's locked in the trunk. Great,
you start the first stage with all your AMMO in
the box, all your magazines empty, and everything in the

(01:19:00):
year back like However, you get out of the car.

Speaker 1 (01:19:03):
I bet there are some awesome times.

Speaker 3 (01:19:06):
That is cool.

Speaker 1 (01:19:11):
So Eric covered some places that that provide scenario training enforcement.
Of course, Chuck, can you think of any that the
average everyday citizen could potentially attend.

Speaker 3 (01:19:27):
Car ran he mentioned already. Craig his like e c
QC's an outstanding class since.

Speaker 2 (01:19:37):
Aims aren't movement and structures, that is one I would
like to hit.

Speaker 3 (01:19:41):
Amos is an outstanding class. I've been to that one.
I've been to a c QC Extreme Close Quarter Concepts
is more of a street level like a street encounter
could turn into a mugging very you know, a really
bad one kind of thing. How do you how do
you negotiate that? Amos's arm movement and structures. It isn't

(01:20:04):
a building search class per se, because some of the
people that take this his class are like, you know,
they're working for an agency where they're junior Jason Born,
so they don't want to search the building. They want
to E and E the building and you know, keep going.

Speaker 2 (01:20:19):
That kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (01:20:20):
But for a home defender or somebody like that, it
would be the principles or it's a it's a well
constructed class. I really enjoyed it. I walking in there
having all my stratago's low light experience was certainly useful
put me ahead of the ball game there. But those

(01:20:41):
those are really good. Cecil Birch is a close close
quarter hang gun close quarter pills his close quarter concepts
class that he does, it's e C QC ish, but
it's Cecil's take on it that's very good. There's definitely
a on forced components on that.

Speaker 2 (01:21:04):
Anyboddy doing anything that would be even close to an
active killer response class ed long for normal humans.

Speaker 3 (01:21:11):
At ed Monk, Edmunk is doing ed Monk is doing
one for for average Earth people.

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):
Okay, I've thought about it, but.

Speaker 3 (01:21:21):
Thus far I've only collected up for sim guns. They're
hard to get if you don't have agency sponsorship. But
as far as like actively teaching it, ed Monk would
be who I would look at.

Speaker 2 (01:21:32):
Okay, he does a user level.

Speaker 3 (01:21:36):
The last I looked is does a user level, and
he does a instructor like his version of a short
instructor course.

Speaker 1 (01:21:49):
So when when I kicked this off, I kind of
did a bit of a monologue, kind of talking about
current events news some bias.

Speaker 2 (01:21:58):
Eric was there.

Speaker 1 (01:21:59):
Something in that that you wanted to talk talk about more.

Speaker 2 (01:22:04):
So a couple of things, and I'll kind of rehashuay did. Right.
So there's some very well known events out there that
happen in other countries. One involved a Brett, one involved
in American right. In both of those cases, they didn't
look like anybody that was the bad guy in those events,
and they had all their gear from work, so they
were very readily identifiable as to who they were. And

(01:22:26):
that's kind of my bigger concern. So if you like,
look at the Arvada, Colorado event from now what five
years ago, four or five years ago, guy's chief comes
off the cracker. He decides he's going to go murder
a cop. He goes into the downtown square, murders a
cop on a Saturday morning, decent normally human like a
block away with a concealed carry permit. Runs to the
sounds of the guns. Nine when one calls light up

(01:22:47):
a at white two with a rifle just smoked a
cop downtown. Good guy comes around the corner in essence,
sees the bad guy with a gun, engages him, terminates
the fight, goes and picks up the bad guy rifle
and the first officers get there, and what do they see?
A white dude with a rifle and a downed officer
if they even saw that, and so he got shot killed.

(01:23:11):
You know, it's tragic, it's terrible, but it's completely reasonable
and understandable given what they're rolling into because the reality
is there's not going to be a lot of negotiation
or repeated commands at a point like that. Now what time,
So we have that issue, right, somebody does the absolute
right thing, but people coming into it and mistake them,

(01:23:33):
bad things happen. So knowing when to get the gun
into a holster, knowing when to get as far away
or separated, right, having cover, legit cover so that you
can comply with the officer's actions, right, And part of
that's going to be breaking the tunnel vision. And it's
not just the vision, it's the hearing. So I've talked

(01:23:54):
about one that I was involved in where you hear
the siren going in the radio traffic. To this day,
I don't know the siren. What if it wasn't for
the radio traffic, I would still this day tell you
it didn't happen. And that's just something minor, right, my
brain decided that siren had nothing to do with my
ability to survive the next several seconds, so it just
didn't record it. So, now you take somebody decent, normally

(01:24:17):
human being who hasn't had stress levels like that in
their life. Are they going to hear the commands? If
they hear the commands, are they going to process them
for what they are? And how are they going to react? Right? So,
the better a position you can put yourself in, the
better off you're going to be good stuff. Darryl talking
about I know Chuck's been around when Darrel's covered it.

(01:24:38):
That covert draw that Daryl does, it's essentially getting the
hand underneath the cover garment and on the gun.

Speaker 3 (01:24:44):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:24:44):
You know, if you're if you have decided that you're
going to move to the sound of the guns, or
while you're getting your people out of the event before
you decide to go back in. If you do right,
does that gun need to be out of the lower
ready or compress high ready while you're moving in an
event like that, or would it make far more sense
to have the hand under the shirt on the gun
grip established if you encounter the bad guy, now you

(01:25:06):
can do other things to get the gun into play
pretty quickly, but you're not attracting the negative attention to yourself.
On the front end. You see a lot of footage
coming out of Israel and attacks in Israel and some
of the attacks in Europe. A lot of plain clothes
organizations over there right either military or civilian law enforcement.

(01:25:26):
They do a really good job of warning things that
readily identify them as the police. Those are places where
you have fewer percentage wise organizations and we need right there.
There's like the National Police, and there's the military, and
that's it in a lot of those places. But running
some sort of ball cap that readily identifies you as

(01:25:47):
the police. And I'm not talking about one this is LAPD,
but one that three sixty three hundred and sixty degrees
makes it perfectly clear that the dude wearing this is
a cop. Do you look at visibly and take their
kneon colored or regular colored beanies with the reflective lettering
polease shareff all the way around, or their arm coverings
that can just be pulled down. Mike Lesman, who some

(01:26:09):
of us know, used to be a Reno swat cop,
he designs companies DSM don't shoot me he's got like
a Miss America sash. That does n't mean a couple
of really obnoxious neon colors with a reflective lettering. So
now you've got coverage front and back right, kind of
partial to the sides. Do you work with it? Do

(01:26:30):
the cops know those things exist? And are they aware
of them? We talked earlier about badges. The badge on
the belt's great when you're walking around the station, right,
everybody knows you're you're a detective, okay, with the studies
that have been done, So it's got to be in
the hand and up in view right now, Can you
just put your wallet there and like as an emergency
stop gap? Yeah, but again, visibly has got some neon

(01:26:54):
colored badge holders that if you're not wearing the reflective clothing,
the really obnoxious clothing really does a good job of
drawing the eye. And they have it set up to
wur it can be on the belt around the neck,
but you can get it away from there and get
it up. Now, the gun and the badge are not
in the same plane. It's not this, it's this right,

(01:27:14):
Maybe that's enough to catch the initial officer's attention and
get somebody to come off the gas while they're trying
to figure out what it is and understand it. If
the word has gotten out within l E that those
things exist.

Speaker 3 (01:27:28):
Jim Crillo told me a conversation they had a bunch
of blue on blues where it was off duty or
plain clothes getting shot up by the uniforms. In the
neck chain obviously wasn't super reliable. The badge even less
so I was. I'm friends with the guy from Kansas City,
Missouri that did the study on badge placement. He actually
ran Casey No officers through that and there was a

(01:27:51):
big disparity between the badge on the belt and the
badge on the neck. And then you know, along that
same line, Jim Sorella told me he was trying to
come up with a way to help these guys not
get shot. And he told me to get their creds
in their hand and on this camera. I can't do it.
Get your hand in the air like the statue of
Liberty and you're going to do You're just going to

(01:28:13):
do this little lighthouse beacon thing when you're standing there
and you know you've rolled up on stuff. Eric that
if you saw that dude from a block away. Your
first instinct wouldn't be even if you didn't get the
briefing on that, your first instinct wouldn't be I need
to shoot that guy. It would be what is that
guy doing?

Speaker 2 (01:28:31):
Right? That's all that's needed with.

Speaker 3 (01:28:34):
An interruption to about that process. I can tell you
in my civilian classes. When I'm talking with civilian I
mean we're not in military resiliens. But you know what
I mean when I say that, So non talk classes.
Because my post shooting for on duty guys, did I
hit him?

Speaker 2 (01:28:52):
Did it work?

Speaker 3 (01:28:52):
Do I need to shoot him again? Did he bring
friends with this fight? Am I hit? What's the condition
of my pistol? Now get on adeo and call it in.
Don't just screapshots fired in the middle of your gun fight,
but everybody knows they're the cops off duty or concealed
carry people. Part of your post shooting is did I

(01:29:13):
hit him? Did it work? Did I need to shoot
him again? Did he bring friends to this fight?

Speaker 2 (01:29:17):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:29:19):
Get the gun put away? And then who is around me?
And who is coming? And that me and who is coming?
And that dives into you may not be able to
make the call right, So then how do you work
with your friends and family or family and friends. What

(01:29:40):
are they going to say?

Speaker 2 (01:29:42):
Right? How are they going to convey it? Do they
remember what you're wearing that day? So they can at
least say, my better half is an old white dude
with gray hair and a gray hair and a beard
war and a green T shirt, you know, and he's
the retired cop who shot the bad guy, right, Like,
do they know enough to put that into practice and
convey that to the dispatcher. So at least the officers

(01:30:05):
of nothing else have a heads up coming in there's
probably a good guy on scene and he might be
looking something like this. Again, if that buys you a
couple of seconds for the whole processing part to take place,
that that works, and that can even apply to decent
normal humans, right.

Speaker 3 (01:30:25):
I can tell you I uh. I was a kids
city one time and we were doing scenarios OC scenarios
who were using Lindell dummy guns, which are you know
before the orange and the blue guns were a thing
that were made out of aluminum. My kid, a city guy,
forgot to call it dispatch, tell him we'd be doing
his training. So what I didn't know was somebody had

(01:30:47):
called in we had an unknown disturbance party. Armed had
a little break in training. I'm running around because we're
in the back, running around the corner of building, going
to go go take a leak. So I got a
dummy gun, second waistband. I come around the corner. I
mean four nice Kansas City, Missouri officers, two of them
with eight seventies. Stop, catch hands in the air. I

(01:31:10):
turn around, face away from me, Drop to your right knee,
and I'm thinking the whole time, I wasn't trying to
argue with the uniforms like I'm the police too, and
that sort of thing. I was thinking, Oh, I know
this one. As they put me into a felony prone
and go to my right knee, go to my left knee,
I'm like, oh, I know this one. And so I

(01:31:30):
ended up into grass and handcuffs. We have the whole
thing figured out, but you know what it didn't catch
is a couple of loads of double lot buck arguing
with these guys. You can always figure it out later,
but having the immediate, you know, the reaction of oh
shit and getting my hands up and then let them

(01:31:52):
be in charge until we could figure that out probably
kept me from getting shot.

Speaker 2 (01:32:01):
Good stuff. And if you ever need a filler for
a classroom on this, go to YouTube get the video
how to identify an LA County Deputy Sheriff because it
stems off of a traffic stop very similar to that
and while it wasn't funny at the time, the deputies
involved to make the tape did a good job of
conveying information while making it a little less serious.

Speaker 3 (01:32:25):
I'll have to look that one up. I haven't seen
that one.

Speaker 2 (01:32:27):
Oh, that's a good one from the late eighties. It's
still around. Also, how to identify a patrol car is
included in that.

Speaker 1 (01:32:37):
A question came up. This one goes out to Chuck,
the fanny pack that you're using is at the medium
of the hill people. And if budget's an issue, what
other recommendations do you have?

Speaker 3 (01:32:53):
Wilderness? Yeah, Bill's real, pretty good stuff. I got a gift.
Did what is the hell do you say that every
stock or whatever that whatever that brand is. Matt HoTT
gave me one of those two for my classes, and
that one's pretty good. I have not truthfully, I used

(01:33:16):
to be the dude that went out and bought all
the new stuff to try it out, and over the
decades that got really expensive, so I haven't done that
as much anymore, but I know Wilderness and everly Stock
are also really good, and I would say quality wise,

(01:33:36):
they're all congruent, so it would be a couple of them.
You have to pull a zipper tad to open it
up to help people. Gear is kind of a rip
and it folds open, you know, because you're you're it's
it's ambidextrious. But you can pull and you're just grabbing
the pack and pulling and said Ashley, grabbing a zipper pool.
So that would be personal preference more than anything on

(01:33:59):
the type. I do know hill people gear is costy,
but man, I've really find out, like when people were
buying Eagle versus people were buying Foe want to be Eagle,
they really found out that you get what you paid
for on a lot of this stuff, and I get
price can be an option. I too have been broke

(01:34:23):
during periods of my life and couldn't always buy the
stuff that I wanted to buy. I don't know how
much the Wilderness pack is, but Sam also builds really
good gear, and then I know that everly Stock is
pretty okay as well. I would imagine I haven't handled one.

(01:34:45):
I probably should. Five to eleven makes a pseudo kind
of a hill people gear copy from what I've seen
in their ads, so that might be something to look at,
but I have not personally tried one of those.

Speaker 2 (01:34:58):
The wilderness right now looks like it's going sixty nine
to ninety five.

Speaker 3 (01:35:02):
Yeah, I think I think my whole people gears like
one hundred and ten or something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:35:09):
Unity used to make that clutch belt. Yeah, it was
like a belly band on steroids. Vertex is now doing it,
I think or bought it from them. That is an
option which allow you to carry everything under the sun,
but it has to be concealed by something has to
be under a garment.

Speaker 1 (01:35:30):
Now I have a different question, going off into a
different direction, still along the same lines to a point,
there's a quote that's been floating around that's upset a
lot of people talking about the Second Amendment, talking about
gun deaths being worth.

Speaker 2 (01:35:45):
It to protect the Second Amendment.

Speaker 3 (01:35:48):
That's not what Charlie Krus said.

Speaker 1 (01:35:50):
No, it's not. No, it is not.

Speaker 2 (01:35:52):
Yeah, way out of context.

Speaker 1 (01:35:54):
Yeah, I thought it would be nice to talk about
the importance of the Second Amendment and the ability for
us as citizens to carry a firearm as necessary, especially
as this world falls apart.

Speaker 3 (01:36:11):
Personally. If you look at like John Lott studies, if
you look at you know, harm versus good that anything does.
Cars kill tens of thousands more of our citizens in
the United States every year than guns do. That's fact,

(01:36:31):
tens of thousands more than guns do. But nobody's going
to be in a hurry to get rid of cars
because the value of having them for things that we
need to do is so high. Nobody's saying that the
body count is it's okay, but everybody acknowledges that the

(01:36:53):
risk is there. YEA, guns, the gene was out of
the bottle in the thirteen hundreds. You can't you can't
put that cork back in the bottle. You can't do it.
And if we look at every given year, it's roughly
about ten thousand criminal homicides with firearms a year. So
we look at that, the anti gun people will tell you, well,

(01:37:16):
they're not that useful because some non cops lawfully justifiable
homicide kill something like three or four thousand bad guys
a year, give or take any given year looking at
the stats, but thatst majority of people that are good
people are not homicidal, so they don't do things like
finish a dude off that the criminals will do. So

(01:37:40):
a lot of we know from John Lott studies, a
lot of these When they just look at justifiable homicides,
they're leaving out all of the non fatal woundings, the
ones where they missed, the ones where the display of
the firearm was what short circuited the crime and progress.
I can tell you I have had six off duties

(01:38:00):
in my life. Five of them I got to the
point where I wasn't sure if that was my lucky
jframe or my unlucky jframe, but I had it in
my hand five different times in my life, and at
once a glock nineteen where I had it in hand
and that was what shortstopped the criminal action. So no

(01:38:24):
shots fired, verbal commands display the gun over with several
of those. Because of the nature of the jurisdiction and
crime rate and things like that, there was no police
report done. They're like, okay, thanks for telling us, have
a good day, because no crime was completed past that point.

(01:38:45):
So my six incidents are all those stats that John
Locke come up with. Something up upwards of you know,
arguably two and a half million defensive gun uses a year.
That's two and a half million good guys short circuiting
felony crimes, rape, robbery, murder versus ten thousand criminal homicides.

(01:39:10):
That's clearly airing on the side of the good, very clearly.
And then we do know that a vast majority of
criminal homicides in our nation are concentrated in very specific
areas of certain cities, and if you if you eliminated
the stats from those places, it would be virtually crime free.

(01:39:35):
One of one of the things today living in Kansas
and some of the places like you know, we have
Dodge City, we have Abilene. You know, Wyatt Earp was here,
Pat pat Masterson, Pat Garrett, et cetera, Jesse James, I
got dug into the Old Less. You know, when the
anti gutters talking about, well we can't have this, it'll

(01:39:56):
be like the Old West. The Old West was remarkably
peaceful because yeah, I forget who said it, but an
armed society is often a polite society, and that that
actual like crime was actually it is relatively rare if
you dig into the history of the Old West. So

(01:40:19):
maybe making it like the Old West, isn't such a
bad thing?

Speaker 2 (01:40:29):
Eric On, Oh, the Duck's right, Chuck Scott, the data.

Speaker 1 (01:40:34):
Yeah, it kind of reminds me of we're talking about
the the George Zimmerman thing. Had there not been a firearm,
had there not been someone killed, this wouldn't have made
the news. And with these lawful uses of a firearm

(01:40:58):
just mere presence. Remember hearing one of your stories, Chuck,
of presenting a firearm where it stopped it was an
active deterrent and those there's no UCR, there's no neighbors,
there's no report, there's no federal anything to cover that right,
especially and then and even for citizen use as a force.

(01:41:19):
That's it doesn't like uh.

Speaker 2 (01:41:22):
I was.

Speaker 3 (01:41:22):
I was in New Orleans and very nearly at a
shooting and broad daylight into Cator Street on the French Quarter.
The two dudes backed off. My wife's kind of freaking out.
I didn't want to be the dude with the gun
acting crazy, that kind of thing. So try to call
it in called in the NOLA Dispatch. Because it is

(01:41:44):
no longer a crime in progress, it was an attempted
robbery passed. They put me on hold and I stayed
on hold until they hung up on me. So at
that point point I have a record of a valiant
attempt to report the incident, to which uh I was

(01:42:09):
I was unable to do that, and we were down
there the next day before we had to start driving back.
Knowing how things work at big cities, crime rates, things
like that, if I wanted to call the cops and
have them come out and take a ribbon statement or
whatever at the hotel we were at, I could have
waited several days for that to happen probably, so you know,

(01:42:32):
it never ended up that one never ended up on paper,
but I wanted to have a paper trail, as it were,
electronically to show I made the value attempt in case
somebody you know, came a call and to be like, hey,
why do you have a gun out? You know that
sort of thing. But yeah, uh Farnham saying about how

(01:42:54):
you you could be on your own and is including
in a city of several million people. I have, in
fact been hung up by nine to one one dispatch
in two major cities in our find nation, the other
one be in Washington, DC.

Speaker 1 (01:43:12):
And if anything, that just reinforces the need to have
the right stuff and be proficient with it and be
aware that, yeah, backup might not become an you might
be it good stuff sad, but it's a good discussion. Well,

(01:43:34):
can you guys think of anything else that we may
have skipped or missed regarding similarities or things to consider
or an on or off duty or even a responsible
citizen being at the critical incident.

Speaker 3 (01:43:52):
The one of the things I talked about the stuff
that I have on duty, I have medical on me,
turn to get us pocket medpack things like that, brutally
frank A whole lot of my own time. I don't
that said, it has been like the first time I

(01:44:12):
did a tourniquet was nineteen eighty three, nineteen eighty four,
I forget, it's been a while. I think it was
nineteen eighty three. I was outside of Omaha, Nebraska. I
had a rollover accident, and people didn't wear their seatbelts
as much back then. This chin got ejected out of
the car and the back of her leg had landed

(01:44:35):
on top of the guardrail and right at the top
of her calf. She squored and I think it was
her tibio artery. And back then we didn't have store
abot tourniquets, but they had taught us in army training, sir,
that you know, how to use a cravat as a tourniquet.
So I had a basic medkit in my car close

(01:44:56):
enough for me to grab and was able to you know,
lost a cravat and a mini mag light out of
a deal because that was my windlass. But that gal
would have bled to death before the vandalance got there.
That's a fact of life. So I am. I am
comfortable with a very well stocked trauma kid in my

(01:45:18):
vehicle as one of the things that I have out
about when I'm going about my business because a lot
of times, if it's not dramatic like ninja gunfights and
things like that, a lot of the things that we
might have to help people in and around has something
to do with like car Rex and that sort of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:45:38):
Absolutely, And I respond to Rex on duty all the time. Yeah,
not so many gunfights none, car Rex, Yeah, constantly.

Speaker 3 (01:45:53):
There was a point in my life where I was
responding to two or three shootings a week. Yeah, that
not so much anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:46:01):
But I hear they're going to one right now.

Speaker 3 (01:46:04):
Well, can you hear it in the background. Yeah, Yeah,
somebody's going somewhere exciting.

Speaker 1 (01:46:09):
Yeah, they're just bored. It's break time. You need to
get there fast. I think Eric disappeared forever he.

Speaker 3 (01:46:18):
Does that, I don't know. I mean maybe he needed
a pliny break could be could be.

Speaker 1 (01:46:23):
Well, I think that's pretty much everything I was thinking.
I still have another episode I want to do with
you guys. Oh he said he'll be back in a sec.
That was a minute ago, been more than one second. Oh,
there is so one episode I want to get you
guys on, and also to include Doug and I think
and there were others and I don't remember who exactly

(01:46:45):
they were going to be, But I want to talk
about it in the law enforcement realm. But it is
not only law enforcement, but it's negligent hiring, training, and retention,
because I think that's a fun top. You mean like
school boards them too, they okay, preferably have them, Yeah,

(01:47:06):
not have weapons charges and be I llegals and yeah,
you mean like a chief?

Speaker 2 (01:47:12):
Sorry that too? How many times you have to get
fired as a chief before you They shouldn't hire another agency,
you shouldn't hire you. We can talk about that one.

Speaker 1 (01:47:20):
Is there a limit? Is there a national database to
keep track of that kind of stuff there should be. Yeah, yeah,
well how about we get some final plugs, final thoughts,
And I'm going to say my favorite thing, and that's
make sure that you, as the viewer of the listener,
that you're supporting those sources that you found to be beneficial.

(01:47:42):
If you like what these guys had to say, if
you're not already following them on social media, you're overdue.
It's time. The reason I say this is because these
algorithms don't work in our favor. Right now, YouTube is
pulling down videos of mind left and right, and I
have well over a thousand videos, so that means I
have a couple of years before I'm down to zero.

(01:48:03):
I don't want to go that direction. Yeah, I have
strikes and stuff for videos that they say that I
let's see here.

Speaker 2 (01:48:09):
One was.

Speaker 1 (01:48:11):
There was some kind of obscenity thing like, no, we
don't have that on this sexual content. Nope, you're this
is the this is the wrong video. Uh sell it
sales of firearms? No, we're not selling anything.

Speaker 2 (01:48:25):
But as much as I.

Speaker 1 (01:48:28):
Appeal it, it's it's always shut down. So these algorithms
aren't our friends. And that's where you use the viewer
or listener come in. Make sure you're given like subscriptions
and shares when appropriate, especially when there's a really good
point made. If there's something that helped you understand something better,
make sure you're sharing that because the algorithms may not

(01:48:49):
reach your immediate friend group, and those shares can, and
especially if it's something meaningful. It's interesting how quickly everyone
can jump on board with something that's negative, but they
really don't jump on board with something that's positive. And
it would be awesome if everyone would share the good stuff.
As a matter of fact, I just did a Facebook

(01:49:11):
post to was it today?

Speaker 2 (01:49:12):
I think it was today.

Speaker 1 (01:49:14):
We're essentially there's some negative stuff going on right now
in the gun training world, and some people are talking
about it. Let's talk about who are the pillars of
this community. Who are the people we should be paying
attention to, because, yeah, dune scrolling is a thing right now.
People are out of their minds. It's if you haven't
seen the movie in the Mouth of Madness, it's so

(01:49:35):
reminiscent of that. We're on the cusp of that. But
make sure you're supporting those sources. So with that mind,
Eric Final thoughts, final plugs, air care products, air.

Speaker 2 (01:49:47):
Care not me bard care. Maybe once the line of
the storm is coming, there's more and more information bubbling
about something's going to happen domestic, right, and I'm talking
something large and multilocation aside from all the other stuff. Right,
And it's beyond the run of the mill, Kirk versus

(01:50:09):
crook ye, Kirk versus victim. They're being more events where
folks have either been kind of coerk, I don't say course,
but developed into a certain way of thinking and deciding
that violence is the only response to it, or there
or there's other plots coming down the road and there's

(01:50:29):
a bunch of information about it. It doesn't matter which
one it is. Acknowledge that it can come to you,
and think ahead of time about when is the proper
answers to get the hell out of dodge and how
you do that when there needs to be a weapon
in hand, right, firearm or something else, or when you're
the one that has to go, try to solve that

(01:50:50):
problem with an acceptance of all that that could mean
to you. Right, if you don't have the hard skills,
get them right, and that doesn't necessarily just have to
be shooting in turnique. Right, there's things I'm working on
every day. Now, yeah, I'll leave it at that. Oh,

(01:51:15):
that's the stuff, right. Cougar Mount Solutions dot Com is
where you can find the company on the web. You
can find it on social media both Book of Faces
and Instagram. I'm also the editor over at Americancop dot com.
We'll probably hit this topic over there at some point
in the relatively in your future as well. But Cougar
Mount Solutions and American Cops where you can find me.

Speaker 1 (01:51:36):
So not even a tangent to add on to that.
One of the things Rich Mason over at Darcy has
been preaching for years. One of the main things my
main involvement with Darcy has been attending the Counter Terrorism School.
Fantastic program. If you haven't been, if you're in law enforcement,

(01:51:59):
highly recommend you go. So it's not a swat school.
It is for every cop. And the idea is it's
to prepare officers for a multi sell terrorist terrorist attack.
And when we look at things like Mumbai, Beslin and
other events, these are warm ups, warm ups for the

(01:52:20):
for the Super Bowl and the United States is the
super Bowl. Now this sounds this sounds almost alarmist, but
it's not. Look at this, Look at where we're at
right now, and we don't need to have domestic and
foreign entities working together in a common goal. Just looking
at the chaos that we have right now. What a
what a prime opportunity right now with this chaos that

(01:52:44):
we're in, to create additional chaos, so be prepared.

Speaker 2 (01:52:50):
Look at North Hollywood right pushing thirty years ago. Look
at two guys with no training, two guys a lot.
Look at Dorner, yeah, right, with what he pulled off
in southern California. One dude. Look at the DC Beltway sniper.
Two dudes. Okay, never mind what Clancy hypothesized in one

(01:53:15):
of his books. I would take Tom's plan further and
it would be one in every state, one attack like
that in every state. Right, and I'm sure somebody way
more vicious and smarter than me has figured out how
to make that happen. Right, But take a look at
those things. If if you actively practice your faith at

(01:53:35):
a specific location, you and the folks that go to
worship with you really need to take some things into consideration.
Because I'm willing to bet before this last Sunday morning,
there weren't a lot of folks thinking about that specific
kind of attack, right, I'm sure there were people thinking
about it, but day to day, decent only human beings
going to church, they weren't expecting a dude to come in,

(01:53:56):
light the place on fire and start shooting.

Speaker 1 (01:53:58):
Oh, with their vehicle and the vehicle attacks right too. Yeah,
and then also I guess he had some some form
of I E eds as well. So yeah, but it's
it's this is up to you, the listener of the viewer.

Speaker 2 (01:54:15):
Yeah you need Yeah, you're going to run for a
little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:54:19):
Yeah, make sure you have the right equipment, make sure
you have the stuff that you're familiar with that you
can use and enough to support you and whoever you're with,
or just stay home and never leave.

Speaker 2 (01:54:31):
But that's not a good plan. Yeah, chuck.

Speaker 1 (01:54:37):
On that high note.

Speaker 3 (01:54:38):
Yeah, I uh. It was an arrange master thing. And
at the end of the Instructor dinner, John Farnham, who
is famous for some of his monologues where he's trying
to get some points across, gave one that really stuck
with me and it's too long for me to repeat here,
but he's talking about how human factors and they're the

(01:54:59):
same through history, that kind of thing. And he was
talking about the Roman Empire and how you know they
went from a very professional army to not so professional
army and then they tried to outsource it and you know,
things fell apart. And he figured that, you know that
you would have a Roman centurion having some kind of

(01:55:19):
slacker troops getting on them about it. You know, look
at the state of your armor, your swords not sharp,
that sort of thing, stuff that everybody in a position
military authority or as a cop supervisor might have to
deal with. And he got on him about, you know,
your gears in this kind of state. You're not fit,
your sword's not sharp, your armor's getting rusty. What if

(01:55:41):
the huns are coming over the hill? The huns could
be coming, The huns could be coming tomorrow, and you're
not ready for it. And then Farnham gave the line,
he goes, you know, the huns could be coming. And
then as we know the huns were coming because they did. Yeah,
the line, the line he dropped on us all was

(01:56:03):
the huns were coming. And what we know is the
huns are always coming. That there's never been there's never
been a time in history where at some point in
time the huns were not coming, and often they are
coming for us. It was the way he delivered it

(01:56:27):
was absolutely amazing. He's you know, he's a he's a
hell of a speaker, but that one, that line really
stuck with me. So yeah, being and and all kinds
of things like I note, I'm doing revolver Fest in
South Carolina next weekend, and we're watching South Carolina because

(01:56:47):
there's hurricane floating over that way right now. So people
need to be ready for all hazard stuff, be able
to threat assess what's the you know, what's what's most
likely to get them, and not to be alarmist, but
what's most likely to get most of us versus a
ninja gunfight is you know, your your own heart attacks

(01:57:11):
you or something like that. So having your fitness and
things like diet and that sort of thing in order
is measurably greater a threat. But with all that said,
it is unsettled times right now, so best to pay
attention to that kind of thing. As far as plugs,

(01:57:32):
revolver Fest is sold out, so are near sold out,
So that's the next weekend, but that's going to be
a really good time later in the month. I've got
a o C instructor and one of my pocket Rockets
classes down at Dallas Pistol Club. I still have some
room in that. Since you mentioned that I do see,
I thought I would talk about that. Have some other

(01:57:52):
training on my calendar so people can look up my site.
It's Agile Training and Consulting Agile tagical dot com if
you want to look at my calendar. But next class
that I have after Revolver Fest is OC instructor and
my pocket Rockets. I've got a full weekend a handgun

(01:58:13):
down in Northern Georgia, and then after that Eric and
I will both be at the pat Rogers Memorial volve
Around up at the famed gun Side Academy right before Thanksgiving.

Speaker 2 (01:58:26):
Okay, since I didn't pitch my classes. Two shotgun classes
in Dallas this weekend, Oh cool. Armed Women of America
are hosting me in Salt Lake in two weeks for
Red Dot Special Armed Women of America. I'll be a range,
but you got to go through them. Doing an Elle
Red Dot Destructor class in Vegas the first week in November.

(01:58:48):
A federal agencies hosting that. So there are openings for
other l e if they're interested, and then mead Haul
in December for shotgun and red Dot a couple of
different shogun classes in a red dot class.

Speaker 3 (01:59:00):
Eric's Red Dot and Stricter class is outstanding.

Speaker 2 (01:59:02):
By the way, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:59:06):
I wouldn't mind going to one of the shotgun ones, you.

Speaker 2 (01:59:09):
Know, I travel. I would love to do classes in Utah.
I can get.

Speaker 1 (01:59:14):
The problem is no one has shotguns.

Speaker 2 (01:59:17):
They're dumb like to other classes too, you know, no,
but I want shotguns specifically.

Speaker 1 (01:59:21):
Yeah, as a matter of fact, what was the shotgun
course that just happened?

Speaker 2 (01:59:26):
We just did Thunderstick Summit okay down at Stacatta Ranch, Vegas.
Bulky Ella, Fritz Fisher, the hots Myself, Fricky Cagele, and
Zach Cox all taught. So Steve and I tied a
couple of blocks together. Low light cool specifically, if you're

(01:59:49):
up for it, and I'm sure we could find some others.
I'd like to do a review of that and then
get uh Chuck's wife Kristen on because I understand she
might a bit of a shotgunner and I want to
hear her stories of how she's converting Chuck into a
shotgun guy. It's interesting to see him run the shotgun.

Speaker 1 (02:00:14):
He said things in the past.

Speaker 3 (02:00:17):
It's I think he's talked about in the past when
we would argue shotguns and carbins it he thought you
could only point him doors or something like that and birds.

Speaker 1 (02:00:31):
Yeah, but with all this doom and gloom for me personally,
there are definitely there are there are silver linings, absolutely,
so we can't just focus on the doom and gloom.
Focus on the good things in your life. Part of
that is also focused on your own preparedness. Make sure

(02:00:52):
you're carrying, make sure you're prepared, make sure your head's
on a swibble and your eyes are open. So let
me find my link that has all my other info
on it. There are some good quotes from today's episode.
I look forward to going through it and hopefully making
them in the clips and then YouTube and Facebook will
ban me for it. Big thanks to the sponsors, that's.

Speaker 2 (02:01:15):
What they do.

Speaker 1 (02:01:16):
Big thank you too, Lucky Gunner, Filster Walter, and lastly,
our Patreon subscribers. If you don't want to go on Patreon,
you can go to Primary Secondary dot com slash forum
and there there's network support there. If you don't want
to go to the Patreon route. Basically, I have all
this really cool stuff you use, all these videos and

(02:01:36):
articles and all kinds of stuff Facebook groups seven hundred
and thirty six different Facebook groups. Love being able to
provide all this stuff. Love having these discussions, Love sharing concepts.
The way I come up with the idea of doing
these doing these specific episodes is I pay attention to
what people are talking to and determine, Hey, this is
something we should talk about this specifically. This has been

(02:01:58):
a topic. There have been some incidents that have been
happening where maybe it would be nice to have some
experienced people to talk about this. So it's been two hours,
make sure you hit like if you haven't already hit share.
If this was something that was beneficial to you, This
will be on YouTube. I'm being told I need to

(02:02:18):
be putting stuff on Rumble. The issue with Rumble is
I am very much restricted on the size, and two
hour podcasts are too big for Rumble unfortunately. So I'm
looking for solutions, looking for solutions because YouTube clearly doesn't
want me there, but I'm going to use it as
long as I can. So I think that's pretty much it.
I still have. Yeah, there's a laundry list of topics,

(02:02:42):
and I am excited to talk about them, but until then,
I think that should do it, and I'll talk to
you later

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P&S ModCast 440 - On/Off Duty Critical Response

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