December 25, 2024 • 40 mins
Host Sean Lennon welcomed Pro Wrestling Veteran Professional Wrestler and creator of “Til We Make It" his Youtube series on making a career in Pro Wrestling. He is also an author with 3 decades of experience in Pro Westling as a Wrestler, Booker, Promoter, and Trainer at The Wrestling Factory. He’s taught all over the continent the past year and will have a new book published in 2025. He's taught Eddie Kingston, Claudio Castagnoli, and Malakai Black plus more in his career as a trainer.
Mike talked about his YouTube series “Till We Make It” and how it’s a resource for Young Aspiring Pro Wrestlers today, the common mistakes trainees make that will hinder their progress and what they should change, being creative of Chikara Pro Westling, Reality shows opening the doors of Pro Wrestling schools like Monster Factory and “Wrestlers” on Netflix and any interested in participating in a similar project, having trained many famous Pro Wrestlers on TV today how satisfying is it for him, thoughts on Foreign Pro Wrestlers who move to US from other countries to make their careers, what he thinks of celebrities trying to cross over to Pro Wrestling, opinion on the new WWEID Prospect program, plus more!
Follow @mq-thousandholds on IG
Subscribe to Til We Make It on Youtube
For the Official PWE Shirt shop at -Fightlete/ PWE PWE Report Shirt (prowrestlingtees.com)
For Exclusive Pro Wrestling Articles and Updated Results for WWE, NXT, AEW, and Impact Wrestling
Like the Facebook Page- / pwepodcast And Support your favorite Independent Wrestlers by buying Shirts and More at https://www.prowrestlingtees.com/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/pro-wrestling-enforcer-podcast--3307124/support.
Mike talked about his YouTube series “Till We Make It” and how it’s a resource for Young Aspiring Pro Wrestlers today, the common mistakes trainees make that will hinder their progress and what they should change, being creative of Chikara Pro Westling, Reality shows opening the doors of Pro Wrestling schools like Monster Factory and “Wrestlers” on Netflix and any interested in participating in a similar project, having trained many famous Pro Wrestlers on TV today how satisfying is it for him, thoughts on Foreign Pro Wrestlers who move to US from other countries to make their careers, what he thinks of celebrities trying to cross over to Pro Wrestling, opinion on the new WWEID Prospect program, plus more!
Follow @mq-thousandholds on IG
Subscribe to Til We Make It on Youtube
For the Official PWE Shirt shop at -Fightlete/ PWE PWE Report Shirt (prowrestlingtees.com)
For Exclusive Pro Wrestling Articles and Updated Results for WWE, NXT, AEW, and Impact Wrestling
Like the Facebook Page- / pwepodcast And Support your favorite Independent Wrestlers by buying Shirts and More at https://www.prowrestlingtees.com/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/pro-wrestling-enforcer-podcast--3307124/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Well, Sean Lennon here with Pro Wrestling and Forcer podcasts,
and right now we want to welcome on next guest
on the show, Mike Quackenbush. He's a professional wrestler and
make sure to check that out on YouTube. He's the
creator of Till We Make It. It's a YouTube series
on making a career in professional wrestling, and he's also
an author. We know he's had about three decades experience
(00:24):
in professional wrestling. He's been all over the country, if
not the world, as a wrestler, booker, promoter, and a trainer.
There's a a school called, I believe the Wrestling Factory
that you're associated with.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
That's right, the Wrestle Factory. I'm still training there every
single Tuesday night, just up in the Lehigh Valley here
in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Nice and make sure to check out this new book
coming out, the Pro Wrestling History, Six Threads and Sixteen Decades.
That's going to be an interesting read. And Mike, welcome back,
Welcome on p w E for the first time. How
are you doing. It's been a while since I've seen
you personally Chicago area.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
That's right. Yeah, I haven't been to Chicago in a
little while, so maybe I'm about due for another stop
in the Windy City.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Yes, yes, I know you've been a part of several
promotions in the Midwest and Chicago area as well, so
I'm going to harry you back.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah. Right, Midwestern fans they're very passionate about their wrestling,
so it's always a pleasure to be out there performing, definitely.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
And let's talk about this YouTube series Till We Make It.
Why you believe it's a great resource for the young
aspiring professional of ustlers today and what can they learn
from you know, your experience in the business.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah, well, I certainly appreciate you asking, and in fact,
I believe it's tomorrow I'm filming the seven hundredth Till
We Make It video. So the project now has been
going on for over five years. It's kind of meant
to be an online repository of pro wrestling knowledge. That's
by design because when I was just starting out back
(01:58):
in the mid nineties, I mean one, we were in
the very nascent days of the Internet. There was not
a Google Search to be had, and there was a
lot of information that people needed about professional wrestling and
it just wasn't readily available. Well, the magic of YouTube
remedies that if you needed a quick tutorial on virtually
(02:20):
any topic you can think of, it's on YouTube. So
if I can find out you know how to make
hard boiled eggs on YouTube, I feel like, well, there
needs to be a kind of equal response from the
wrestling side, and when I started till we make it,
there really wasn't. So my goal is just to make
(02:41):
sure that the next generation has available to them the
kind of information I never did when I was starting out.
And admittedly, when I began the project, I thought how
many videos could I possibly fill with this, and I
thought probably forty eight. Forty eight is the absolute most.
After that, I'm just gonna start repeating myself. Right, seven
(03:05):
hundred videos later, we're still doing it.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Wow, that's that's that's very encouraging to hear that you're
able to be six and sucessful, and you find that
it's a lot of foot fellow students that refer you
refer to their students to your videos, or there are
other wrestling trainees and friends.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yes, absolutely, it's very popular with training wrestlers or people
currently performing, and especially like these last six months, I've
really been out and about I just in the last
calendar year, I taught over one hundred seminars all over
the world. I've been shocked to discover how many people
(03:44):
the only thing about my body of work they know
is till we make it. So it's weird, you know.
Having as you mentioned, right, I've written ten books in wrestling,
I've wrestled a couple thousand matches, I've trained more than
a thousand wrestlers, and the only thing some people know
me from is they're like, oh, that's the YouTube.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Guy, right, that's true. Well, you know, obviously you've had
like a huge backlog of matches, you know, dang bag, like,
like you said, it past three decades. So I'm sure
hopefully they'll discover TH's as well. But when you look
at this series and you look at the common mistakes
the wrestlers make, right or the trainees make that you
(04:24):
feel will hinder their progress, and you like to tell
them what they can do to change, Like, how how
do you feel that is able to communicate to them?
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well, one thing I do think that's important to mention
is like on the channel, I never teach in ring mechanics, right,
so there isn't like a video on the channel that
says you're doing arm drags wrong, Like there's there's nothing
like that. It's very much about the performance. It's about
structuring wrestling and also like living the lifestyle. What does
it mean to come off the road and have a
(04:57):
bag full of smelly gear? Like what do you do
with it? It's more geared toward that. But I definitely
want to help people avoid a lot of the mistakes
and pitfalls I made for having basically come into wrestling
without a mentor. No one really mentored me my first
three years in wrestling, and I've made every mistake possible,
(05:19):
and even after I had a mentor, I kept on
making mistakes. It's a lifelong journey of learning. So just
trying to one hone in on the things I know
that I've screwed up throughout the years and help people
avoid them. But also because I'm still training people, I mean,
that's still my full time job, I see what is
plaguing people right now. So it gives me two great perspectives.
(05:42):
One I can call on my personal experience, but also
I'm out there every week and every weekend training the
next generation of wrestlers all over the planet, so I
can identify the trends and themes that I see in
current training and help kind of point out where I
think either they're falling short or course correct for any
possible mistakes.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
For sure, And I feel like there's also a generation changes, right,
generation kind of like the atmosphere to the mood changes
for each wrestler, you know.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, absolutely, you know, the wrestling I came into when
I broke in in nineteen ninety four, there's almost not
a trace of that left in the wrestling we're making.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Now, right for sure. Now we've seen the reality shows
that are opening the doors the professional wrestling schools. You've
seen like the Monster Factor on Apple TV, the Wrestlers
on Netflix. Was that anything anything about that you feel
you could be involved with this? Or is that something
(06:43):
you don't want any involvement with?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
You know, before the pandemic, there was an interesting opportunity
that might have seen Jeff Goldbloom bring a series of
his to do something similar like what they did for
the Monster Factory on Apple's But that all kind of
just fell apart, and it was very interesting, And I
think anytime someone's doing work like that, if it's a
(07:08):
documentary or you know, if it's a little closer to
a reality series as long as it's not looking to
make wrestling the punchline of a joke, or to present
the people who are chasing their pro wrestling dreams as
somehow being like less worthy in their hopes and aspirations
(07:29):
than anybody else. Right, I don't think people watch, for example,
American Idol to poke fun at people who aspire to
be great singers. And I would not want to participate
in a series where I feel like the people making
it want to poke fun at those who love pro
wrestling so much they want to make it. I wouldn't
want to be party to that.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Sure, so maybe the door would be open one day
with the right connection or.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Right, you've got a big bag of money, come on,
let's go.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Let's do it. How would yours be different? Like? Have
you watched the other series?
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Are now just little snippets here and enough to be like, yeah,
I don't need to watch that. But I think my
approach has always been, first and foremost, wrestling is an
art form. And I know, you know, just to kind
of talk about a coach who's out there is very
influential and who who's had a real positive impact on
a lot of people. I think if you sat and
(08:26):
listened to Al snow talk for about an hour, you
would realize his approach is pro wrestling is a business first.
So my philosophy, my take on that is really quite
different from a lot of the other coaches out there,
and I think that would inform the perspective of the series.
Wrestling is an art form first and foremost. And yes,
if you want to play at the corporate level, so
(08:47):
by that I mean WWE, AEW or New Japan, If
you want to play at the corporate level, maybe what
you're talking about there is something very different. It's a
product that comes out of the you know, the corporate
sausage factory, and that is a lot about business. That's also,
give or take one percent of the active wrestlers in
(09:09):
the world today, so much emphasis, so much attention is
given to that one percent at the corporate level, but
there aren't a whole lot of them. Speaking about the experience,
the other ninety nine percent of pro wrestlers out there are.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Having right definitely, and we've seen kind of like some
of these TV drama like heels and for example, they
try to incorporate the local stuff having at the local level,
the mom and pop you know, promotions and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Right, I would love to see another stab at it
that's more along the lines of Heels, which felt like,
you know, like a prestige drama in the mold of
like Sopranos or Dexter than another reality series that kind
of seems obsessed with like who's dating who?
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Right, definitely, and you've trained a lot of the spressu
the people may recognize on TV today. So when you
look at that, do you take any satisfaction or was
it just you were just glad to be able to
help them?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah, certainly. You know, when I'm out and about, right,
people often kind of come up and they're like, you know,
did you did you really train Eddie Kingston? Did you
really train Orange Cassidy? Those kinds of questions. It's tough
for me almost to believe the heights to which some
of my proteges have ascended in the world of wrestling.
(10:32):
That I mean, just for example, two weeks ago, I
was teaching down in Tennessee and a guy came up
to talk to me who basically said, you know, my
whole inspiration for becoming a wrestler was Eddie Kingston, and
that's one of my own kids. It's hard for me
almost to like relate to the reality of that. So
I would say, if I'm going to characterize what it
(10:53):
makes me feel, to answer your question very directly. First
and foremost, I feel very proud of my students. I
get to, you know, hear that kind of remark when
people are praising their work, or if I just happened
to catch them on TV. You know, I feel very
proud of them. And yet I don't mind saying there
are times where I also feel very jealous. I think
(11:14):
that myself, Oh wow, you know, maybe if I had
worked on this part of my game harder, you know,
I could be doing that as well. I really wish
I was there doing that alongside some of my most
famous proteges. But I think most of all, it gives
me a sense of I don't necessarily know that satisfaction
is the right word, but fulfillment. There is something fulfilling
(11:37):
about knowing. For example, when Claudio Castignoli moved to the
United States from Switzerland to train with me, his goal
was to go to the WWE. That was his goal.
Being able to help him achieve that goal. The exact
right word is fulfillment.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
And the list goes on and on. How many wrestlers
you help, so tremendous, a lot of female wrestlers as well, right.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
On, Well, thank you, I appreciate you bringing that up.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yes, and you know we've seen like, let's talk about
foreign wrestlers coming to the US over the country. You
just saw that first hand with Claudio. You've seeing more
of them in OSHA's Mackenzie. I know you've had some
history of her. She's now doing this great undertaking you
uproot your entire life and come to the US. And
what are your thoughts on that? Right?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
I admire the people who are willing to just say,
you know what, let's forget everything I've got going on
at my home base. I'm gonna move halfway around the
world to go train in a garage with this skinny guy.
So thanks to everybody who put their faith in me
for that. But yeah, I have tremendous admiration for the
people who are willing to do that, whether it's right,
(12:52):
Like Claudio came from Switzerland, a bunch of Aussies throughout
the years have come across the ocean to train with me.
At the wrestle factory for a few weeks, some for
a summer, some for a whole year, or the reverse.
Like for example, Alistair Black Malachi Black, he and some
of his Dutch friends used to fly me to the
(13:13):
Netherlands and I would train them over there. That also
is an incredible sacrifice that they would work at their
regular jobs for half a year to save up enough
money to bring me to them so I could teach them.
So anything like that. Whenever I hear a story that
just strikes me as people going above and beyond, I
have a lot of admiration for.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
That, definitely, And when you see I want to get
your thoughts outside the box the question about celebrities trying
to become professional wrestlers, and you know they're of all ages,
some of them younger and some of them are older.
How do you feel about that? And then like the
utilization of them? You know that you know some people
believe they're taking up a spot from someone who's season
(13:54):
and someone who's ready to shine.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
How do you feel, Yes, I certainly understand that. In fact,
in one of my early books, I even kind of
wrote a bit of a tirade about when Shane McMahon
would get put on a WrestleMania in a spot of
somebody maybe from the middle of the pack in the
WWF roster, who desperately needed that spotlight, and I do
understand that sometimes I feel that way too. However, if
(14:23):
they're able to kind of raise the profile of a
wrestling organization or an entire event and they're drawing more eyeballs,
well ultimately they're drawing more money, and that means at
least for one more month, everybody is getting a paycheck.
Everybody still is employed, everybody still has a place to
go to work, and none of that's guaranteed in wrestling.
(14:44):
You know, as a guy who came up during the
era when both WCW and ECW seemed like viable alternatives
to going to work for the McMahon empire, I know
very well these fixtures in wrestling are not permanent. You
might imagine that because Tony Kahn's got a virtually limitless
(15:05):
bank account, that AEW is here to stay. No, we
all thought that about Ted Turner, a billionaire back in
the nineties when being a billionaire meant a whole lot
more than it does today. His company's not still around,
so you can't take any of that for granted, Does
that mean that every instance of a celebrity helping to
(15:27):
boost the profile of an event or a match is great?
I wouldn't go that far, but when used correctly, they
can be a real benefit.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Right right, And then what would be example of a
used well, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
It's funny, it's it's almost easier to imagine the ones
that are the opposite of that. But like just one example, right,
and now, granted he was only there as a special referee,
but when Mike Tyson came in to referee for the WWE,
like that was a brilliant use of a celebrity who
you know, grinned he was still active at that time
as a boxer, unlike you know, for example, a fight
(16:07):
he had earlier this year where he's been not so active.
But finding those exact right places to deploy them is
the key. And there have certainly been a laundry list
of examples. I mean, I know we were talking about
WCW a moment ago. They're as guilty as anybody, right, Like,
we'd never need Jay Leno to be putting an arm
(16:29):
bar on anybody. How many leapfrogs can Dennis Rodman do
in one single match. However, like, look, I think Bad
Bunny is an interesting example of someone who really does
add something and also you can tell loves the craft.
So it's not like we're seeing Bad Bunny in twenty
(16:51):
matches a year. Right, When Bad Bunny pops up, it
really does mean something and it does move the needle.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yes for sure. And then talk about more of what
you're doing with till we make it. And have you
found that you've inspired wrestlers that hey, they listened to
you and you made a difference.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah, that especially this year as I've gotten out a lot.
Like I said, I taught more than one hundred seminars
this year. It's been really very gratifying to meet people.
Almost every single school I've gone to there's been at
least one person who said, I never thought I could
do this until I watched your series. It really gave
me the confidence to try. So it's been fun meeting
(17:35):
people this year who are so brand new to it.
You know, many of them they're not even ready to
have their first matches yet. But it fills me with
hope for like, what are these guys going to be
like two to three years down the line. If they
are so serious about the craft that they've watched hundreds
of tutorial videos in addition to being serious enough to
(17:57):
put down money at a training school and enrolled to
become a wrestler, I can't wait to see what that
incoming generation is like that they take the training that seriously,
because in past generations there certainly have been lots and
lots of wrestlers out there who feel like I train
and then at some point training is over, or like
(18:19):
I learned everything there is to learn and now I
don't need to keep training. And wrestling is such a
dynamic art form you're never done learning. There is always
something more. There's something new being innovated. This weekend, someone
somewhere is going to invent a new wrestling move. Guarantee
wrestling never stops evolving.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Yes, yes, exactly. And from when you've helped book and
promote shows, when you look at at at events that
are like being advertised, and you know you talked about
this and what your videos are. How to start a
wrestling promotion just by looking at like the flyer or
the location or anything, can you tell they're going to
succeed or not?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
I have a good indicator. Do I know one hundred percent? No,
But you can learn a lot, right, Like you see
a great looking poster or flyer out there side by
side with a terrible looking one, you know something about
the organization putting it on the way that they present
that if that's their first impression, is that piece of marketing? Uh?
(19:25):
And it's almost meme worthy, right, there's a I'm sure
there's nothing but like a social media channel that's nothing
but terrible wrestling posters that you can look at. Right,
there's some horrendous ones out there you can tell. And
it's the same people often ask, like, oh, when a
new wrestler walks into your school, can you tell right
away if they're going to be a superstar. I don't
(19:46):
think anyone can tell you with one hundred percent certainty
yes or no. I just don't think you can. You
could have a pretty strong hunch, though, And that's how
I feel when I see some of those posters or
flyers or like some of these. You know, there definitely
are companies out there posting promos where like a wrestlers
just sat in their Honda Civic in their street clothes,
(20:08):
cutting a promo into their phone, if that's what you're
willing to put out there in terms of marketing, I
know something about the kind of customers you're going to attract.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Right So, so you know, have you ever had other
promoters reach out and ask you about that or that's
something you're kind of more hands off on.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
No, So that is a lot of the work I
do in wrestling now. It's consulting work. So there's wrestling
organizations on five of the seven continents now that I
do consulting work for. And it's whether it's about the
marketing material, the way they assemble their cards, the talent
that they hire. And then a lot of times we
watch the events afterwards and we're looking to fine tune
(20:48):
what could work more efficiently here, what would be a
better spend in terms of dollars to get a return
on investment. That type of work behind the scenes has
become a huge part of what I do. So not
only am out they're coaching wrestlers, also do consulting with bookers,
promoters and owners of wrestling promotions for sure.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
And then I wanted to get your thoughts on what
w has rolled out recently, the wid the scouting. What
is your opinion on that.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Right, So it's almost too new to really know, but
I am cautious about it. Everyone was very optimistic when
nxt UK was announced, and all of a sudden they
started kind of putting their stamp on a bunch of
UK based wrestlers. However, there are promoters over there in
that scene right now who will tell you in the
(21:40):
long term, nxt UK damaged the independence in the United
Kingdom and it's too soon to know what the impact
of the WWEID system will be. It's interesting. I think
the people who are being recognized by and large, they
are very deserving to be recognized, and that's cool to
(22:02):
let people know, Hey, we're paying attention to what you do.
I think you know, before the regime change took place,
you know, give or take about a year ago, something
like this would not have been possible. This is very
much like a collective brainchild of the Triple H's, the
Shawn Michaels, even Gabe Sapolski plays a very strong hand
in this coming into fruition. Over the long term, will
(22:25):
this be something positive or negative? I don't know. We'll
wwe ID endorsed people suddenly raise their rates suddenly will
they tell people, you know, I've got to be booked
in a certain way or I won't appear on your card.
It'll be very interesting to see at the end of
year one, how has this changed the independence, if at all.
(22:47):
It's also possible it will have no genuine impact. And
when will they actually pull the trigger and sign one
of these people. That's also something I think we're all
kind of eagerly anticipated.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, it could be very well, Oh, they need someone.
They didn't look at anyone their ID they had, They
already had their eye on someone that wasn't a scouted
or prospect, right, right, So.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
It's interesting, you know, they have so many fascinating avenues
between the next in Line program you know now w W, E,
I D. And the fact that they continue to go
out there and cherry pick some of the most in
demand people out there. Right the recent acquisition of Julia,
they snatched her away from Marigold. You could make the
argument she was the it girl in Joshie Wrestling at
(23:34):
the moment that they snatched her up. So right, it's
a fascinating time. As ever, there's never a dull moment
in wrestling.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yes for sure, And yeah, I wanted to get your
thoughts on that. It is like, if this was one
of your students that would get that that prospect, I'd like,
what would you say to them? Like, how would you
react to that? You know?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
I think I'd be like, the next cup of coffee
is on you, for sure?
Speaker 1 (24:03):
You know.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I'm sure this conversation is being had a lot of places,
Sean because it is so new and people really don't
quite know what to make of it. And I'm curious
if you have any sense of this. Do you feel
like this is doing enough to raise awareness of certain
independent wrestlers that WWE fans would be willing to try
(24:29):
independent wrestling? What do you think?
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Not to me, I don't think so. Yeah, I wish right.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
I think ww fans first and foremost they want the
stars that they see on television, Yes, and they are
not going to a show that isn't headlined by Rhea Ripley, Live,
Morgan Roman, Reigns, et cetera as fantastically talented. Just to
call somebody out who I'm I'm a big fan of
Cappuccino Jones, He's WWE. I d do I think him
(25:00):
having that on his social media is selling even two
more tickets. I don't think so. I wish more people
should watch that kid. He's incredible, yes, but I don't
think it makes any difference at the door.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah, we have Kylie Ray in Chicago.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
So right, super talented, yes, But I don't know that
w W I D on the social medis means anything.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
No, probably not. And you know what, I'm just happy that,
you know, we're all happy for for all the vessels
that got chosen right, right, and it did. Do you
think that it's kind of like maybe a little supplement
of income would help them in some way? Maybe maybe
we can look at it that way.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I mean, in some way, shape or form, it does
raise their profile. And a wrestler who's smart enough to
diversify their income that they have revenue coming like from
you know, merchandise sales, being on cameo. There's all these
additional revenue streams available to you just waiting to be
taken advantage of and having the industry leader. Right, no
(26:03):
company generates more money than the Wwe just listen to
their investor calls, right, Like, I'm not trying to make
some claim that can't be backed up by dollars and
cents here. They are the industry leader. Getting a stamp
of approval from them has to benefit you in some way,
shape or form. I'll be very curious to know, though,
(26:23):
anybody wants to come out after a year of WWEID
and talk about, Yeah, I saw, you know, fifteen percent
more T shirt sales than the year before. I'm dying
to hear those numbers.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Yes, yes, same here as well. And when you look
at what the work you're doing, you know, talk about
how do you feel like you've been able to expand
your your following to other countries and beyond.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Right, Yes, And you know, for a while, I was
very I went through a long period where I was
burned out on traveling. Okay, I just I would have
these offers come in, Like a couple of years back,
I very nice offer to go to South America, and
I just kind of let it die on the vine.
I was tired of being on planes, I was tired
(27:07):
of always living out of a suitcase. And I passed
on a lot of those opportunities. Post pandemic and especially
thanks to the power of till we make it, Suddenly
people started calling, Hey, do you want to come to Australia, Hey,
do you want to come to Europe? And this time around,
when they said, do you want to come to South America?
(27:28):
Maybe visit Argentina, see Chile, teach some wrestlers down here.
This time around, I felt like, you know what, I
better jump on this and realizing whether it's being at
the bottom of the Southern Hemisphere and somebody comes up
with a copy of Seven Keys to Becoming a Better Performer,
(27:49):
a book I wrote years ago, and saying I read
this and I'm you know, I came all this way
just to get your autograph. It made me realize my
body of work as a whole. Whether you whether you
know me from my books, you know me from YouTube,
you were a big Chakara fan, you followed my career
for years and years. Whatever way I crept into your
wrestling sphere, I never imagined in a million years it
(28:14):
would have the level of influence that it did. And
this year especially to get out there, you know, whether
it's going to other countries or even you know, I
do a lot of my teaching online through zoom, I
hold webinars, teaching webinars in countries I'll probably never visit.
It's not very likely I'm going to go visit Ukraine.
(28:37):
But you know what, I'm teaching wrestlers in Ukraine through
the magic of zoom. All of that's been quite shocking.
It's been the most pleasant surprise for someone who you know. Here,
I am thirty plus years into my career. It should
probably feel like it's on its last legs, and yet
I just had my best year ever in wrestling. So
(28:58):
no one's more surprised by this than me.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Definitely. Congratulations. Hey, we can talk about your upcoming book
if you like.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yes, So, my upcoming book is called We'll most likely
be called Your Best Match.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Okay, And you had mentioned.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
My most recent book as well, Pro Wrestling History, Six
Threads in sixteen Decades. It's out now. You can get
it on Amazon or Audible. And just to be clear,
some people who are interested in the book, I just
want you to realize this. In that book, we're only
going to follow six threads historically. So if you want
to trace, for example, the history of tag team wrestling,
(29:37):
that's one of the six threads in the book. But
some people were like, oh, I thought this was like
a complete history of pro wrestling. If you want to
read about the Monday Night wars. There are so many
great books out there for you to go and read,
and probably documentaries too. I don't need to be writing
about that, but I do want to tell you about
the history of intergender wrestling and where that came from.
(29:59):
That's in Pro wrestle History, the one I've been working
on these last seven or eight months, Your Best Match.
It's really like a very example based breakdown of the
underlying structure of how wrestling matches are assembled. So if
I was going to explain to a brand new wrestler
what elements have to be present in their entrance to
(30:20):
connect their character to the crowd, I want to also
in the book be able to include an example that says,
if you want to see a wrestler who's great at this, well,
go watch WrestleMania thirty because on this match they do
exactly the skill I'm talking about. And with a little
bit of luck here, I should be done with it
in a couple months. I had hoped it would be
(30:42):
done in twenty twenty four, and this was foolish. Why
I thought I'd be done with it that fast, I
do not know, but it's taken me a little bit longer.
But I do not want to put this book out.
This will be my eleventh unless I'm absolutely happy with it.
In the past, you might know, I spent ten years
(31:04):
working for Pro Wrestling, Illustrated and the sister magazines. When
I was there, I worked on a tight deadline, like
any magazine writer does. Your editor might call you up
on a Monday morning and say, by Friday at five pm,
I need fifteen hundred words about the Triple Crown in
All Japan Pro Wrestling. While I was on a deadline,
(31:24):
those words had to be in my editor's inbox before
the end of business on Friday. But the great joy
of being able to write your own books and all
that is without a strict publishing deal. I put all
my own books out on my own. There is no
editor to call me up and say, Mike, that book's
got to be done by Friday. If I'm not satisfied
(31:46):
with it, I can just do another draft, do another
draft until I've simplified it to the point that I
feel like a brand new wrestler could read this and
feel like you just gave me the blueprint for my
first hundred matches.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Oh that's very good, very influential.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Yeah, well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah, I'm sure a lot of That's why I want
to you know, coming because we do have a lot
of Chicago space and Midwest based wrestlers that listen to podcasts.
So I feel like it's great to have you on
and then you can connect with them, connect with you
for sure. And then I wanted to ask you about
for you, what else do you want fans to know
(32:27):
about you? Like and and what's going on? Do you
have any other activities outside of professional russel You've talked
about that videos like you have to have like this
downtime between you know, you just can't live your whole
you know, your whole week through professional wrestling. Right.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
It's so easy to fall into that trap, right because
there's so much wrestling being made every week now, just
between WWE and ae W, there's like, what thirteen hours
of new wrestling every week. It can easily gobble up
every free minute that you have. And not that I'm
saying that I think wrestlers should avoid wrestling. I think
(33:04):
it's important to stay connected. However, you must have some balance,
You've got to have something outside the world of wrestling.
You have to be able to socialize with people who
aren't working in wrestling and have normal, regular human conversations
with them. Here's how I think you'll know if you're
going wrong. If you're at a family function over the
(33:26):
holidays and you try to make every conversation about wrestling,
I think things are a little out of balance. There's
a time and a place to love and talk about wrestling,
there absolutely is, but it's not every minute of every
day forever. You got to go out see some movies.
I love going to see live performance. I just found
(33:49):
out like two months from now, not far from here,
circ de Sole is coming with the show I haven't
seen yet. That excites my imagination going to see great
concerts even and if when I'm done from that, I think,
oh I saw something there that would look so cool
if I could do it in the ring. I didn't
go there necessarily because I thought, oh, I'm going to
(34:09):
feel inspired in some way. I went because I need
to experience stuff out there that isn't just more wrestling.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Right for sure? And then another thing is I wanted
to talk about being a booker, is that how do
you categorize what your show will be. Is it going
to be a family show, is it going to be
more for adults, and do you go buy the base
on the region or the community you're in.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
I mean, certainly you can. I think my instinct on
that is what are the kinds of stories you want
to be able to tell? So, for example, you know,
I made twenty one seasons of Chakara, and it was
heavily influenced by the comic books I grew up reading,
as well as like the TV shows that I really enjoyed,
(34:54):
in particular Lost and the rebooted Battlestar Galactico, which were
both heavily serialized science fiction television shows. So just hearing
that comic books and sci fi, you probably have a
vague sense of what the style is going to be.
It did not make sense to do those shows, you know,
(35:15):
with an R rating, with an NC seventeen rating, but
you might want to tell those kinds of stories, and
that's cool too. I think wrestling is pliable enough as
an art form that you can tell any kind of
story you want to tell. What Luja Underground was able
to do is completely different from the kinds of things
that John Cena era WWE was doing, and that's cool.
(35:39):
It's cool that our art form can support these different
types of storytelling. But when it comes down to you know,
do you want an adult show, do you want a
family friendly show? Do you want something that trends more
comedic or more serious? The easiest way to answer that
is what kind of stories do you want to tell?
And then who is the audience that's going to come
(36:01):
see those? And hopefully you get that right for sure?
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Yeah, I feel like that's that's what you said in
a nutshell as well.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Hm, right, because every once and again you get it wrong.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
And then lastly, you know, let's say someone aspiring to
be a wrestler doesn't know you, they're just checking us out,
and you could have, like, you know, a two minute conversation.
What would you tell them and what advice could you
give them?
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Well, I think if you're passionate about professional wrestling, and
you've gotten to that point now where just watching it
isn't enough, it doesn't scratch the itch anymore, you got
to take that next step. I want to give you
a little bit of a dose of reality and a
little bit of encouragement. So here comes the reality wrestling.
(36:51):
I think should be made with everyone in mind, But
that doesn't mean that everyone can also make pro wrestling.
Does that mean that you can't try? You absolutely can.
Everyone can try, But you may come to realize that
the way in which you can best contribute is actually
(37:11):
by being a referee, by being a ringside manager, by
being an announcer or commentator. There are so many jobs
in wrestling besides being a wrestler, and if you're looking
for a way to contribute, but you go and you
take one day of training, you take that first bump
in the middle of the ring, and your body tells
(37:32):
you this is not what we are doing for the
rest of our lives. No, thank you. I don't want
you to feel like your dreams have just been shattered.
There is so much opportunity within wrestling that will never
require you to take another bump. So even if you're
one of those people who feels like, well, I don't
think like I'm built for this, I don't think I'm
(37:53):
quite right for this, try and also appreciate it isn't
right for everyone. That's just the truth. Being apart is
not right for everyone. However, there's lots of other things
to do in wrestling as well. There are other ways
for you to contribute and for you to be part
of this weird, wonderful thing we all love.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Definitely, Like I didn't even realize that they the wrestlers
need rides that come from out of town, right, and
then closer I came, I was like, okay, so then
you need to be someone pick them up and drop
them off, and you just the little things like that,
or who's setting up the ring, who's setting up the
entrance and the lighting and everything like that.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Right, having a great lighting guy right now might be
the most underrated job in all of wrestling.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, definitely, so I could definitely see that. Even if
you're doing a podcast like I am, you know you're contributing.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
So that's right, exactly right.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
And but professional wrestling though, I feel like it, like
it said, it can outreach to anybody that that once
again involved, right.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Yes, most definitely, And if you're that curious about it,
I think you owe it to yourself to try.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Definitely. Well, Mike, I appreciate you once again being on
pwe Report and anything you'd like to plug, go ahead.
The time is yours to plug your social media whatever
you want.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Well, thanks very much. The best place to find me
is on YouTube if you search till we make it.
I bet you I'm the top result on that search,
and as I said, there's about seven hundred videos now
that make up that project over on till we make it.
If there's a topic you're interested in in pro wrestling,
I bet you there's at least two videos now on
(39:34):
that topic over on my channel. Go ahead and dive in,
and that will connect you to everything else that I do.
Right through there, you'll be able to find everything else
from links to my books, to my other social media, etc.
And if you are watching and you are a coach,
a trainer, and having me come to your school or
(39:55):
even teaching remotely like I do through Zoom might help
benefit you and your students, by all means, please reach out.
That is my full time job. Every day of the week,
I'm out there helping some group of wrestlers somewhere in
the world, and I'd love to team up with you too.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Awesome. Well, I appreciate you, Mike, being on the PW Report,
and you're a great example of like after you know
the inn ring career, how you can extend your career
and professional wrestling extend your livelihood.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Right absolutely, and thank you very much. I appreciate you
giving me the platform to speak to all of your.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Listeners, no problem, anytime. Before I let you go, could
you do one favor and just do a quick shout
out for a PWE report. Here's a pro wrestling enforcer PWE.
It's fine, and I'm going to stop this in video
and starting you one. Is that a right?
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Let's do it all right,
Well, Sean Lennon here with Pro Wrestling and Forcer podcasts,
and right now we want to welcome on next guest
on the show, Mike Quackenbush. He's a professional wrestler and
make sure to check that out on YouTube. He's the
creator of Till We Make It. It's a YouTube series
on making a career in professional wrestling, and he's also
an author. We know he's had about three decades experience
(00:24):
in professional wrestling. He's been all over the country, if
not the world, as a wrestler, booker, promoter, and a trainer.
There's a a school called, I believe the Wrestling Factory
that you're associated with.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
That's right, the Wrestle Factory. I'm still training there every
single Tuesday night, just up in the Lehigh Valley here
in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Nice and make sure to check out this new book
coming out, the Pro Wrestling History, Six Threads and Sixteen Decades.
That's going to be an interesting read. And Mike, welcome back,
Welcome on p w E for the first time. How
are you doing. It's been a while since I've seen
you personally Chicago area.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
That's right. Yeah, I haven't been to Chicago in a
little while, so maybe I'm about due for another stop
in the Windy City.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Yes, yes, I know you've been a part of several
promotions in the Midwest and Chicago area as well, so
I'm going to harry you back.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah. Right, Midwestern fans they're very passionate about their wrestling,
so it's always a pleasure to be out there performing, definitely.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
And let's talk about this YouTube series Till We Make It.
Why you believe it's a great resource for the young
aspiring professional of ustlers today and what can they learn
from you know, your experience in the business.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah, well, I certainly appreciate you asking, and in fact,
I believe it's tomorrow I'm filming the seven hundredth Till
We Make It video. So the project now has been
going on for over five years. It's kind of meant
to be an online repository of pro wrestling knowledge. That's
by design because when I was just starting out back
(01:58):
in the mid nineties, I mean one, we were in
the very nascent days of the Internet. There was not
a Google Search to be had, and there was a
lot of information that people needed about professional wrestling and
it just wasn't readily available. Well, the magic of YouTube
remedies that if you needed a quick tutorial on virtually
(02:20):
any topic you can think of, it's on YouTube. So
if I can find out you know how to make
hard boiled eggs on YouTube, I feel like, well, there
needs to be a kind of equal response from the
wrestling side, and when I started till we make it,
there really wasn't. So my goal is just to make
(02:41):
sure that the next generation has available to them the
kind of information I never did when I was starting out.
And admittedly, when I began the project, I thought how
many videos could I possibly fill with this, and I
thought probably forty eight. Forty eight is the absolute most.
After that, I'm just gonna start repeating myself. Right, seven
(03:05):
hundred videos later, we're still doing it.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Wow, that's that's that's very encouraging to hear that you're
able to be six and sucessful, and you find that
it's a lot of foot fellow students that refer you
refer to their students to your videos, or there are
other wrestling trainees and friends.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yes, absolutely, it's very popular with training wrestlers or people
currently performing, and especially like these last six months, I've
really been out and about I just in the last
calendar year, I taught over one hundred seminars all over
the world. I've been shocked to discover how many people
(03:44):
the only thing about my body of work they know
is till we make it. So it's weird, you know.
Having as you mentioned, right, I've written ten books in wrestling,
I've wrestled a couple thousand matches, I've trained more than
a thousand wrestlers, and the only thing some people know
me from is they're like, oh, that's the YouTube.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Guy, right, that's true. Well, you know, obviously you've had
like a huge backlog of matches, you know, dang bag, like,
like you said, it past three decades. So I'm sure
hopefully they'll discover TH's as well. But when you look
at this series and you look at the common mistakes
the wrestlers make, right or the trainees make that you
(04:24):
feel will hinder their progress, and you like to tell
them what they can do to change, Like, how how
do you feel that is able to communicate to them?
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well, one thing I do think that's important to mention
is like on the channel, I never teach in ring mechanics, right,
so there isn't like a video on the channel that
says you're doing arm drags wrong, Like there's there's nothing
like that. It's very much about the performance. It's about
structuring wrestling and also like living the lifestyle. What does
it mean to come off the road and have a
(04:57):
bag full of smelly gear? Like what do you do
with it? It's more geared toward that. But I definitely
want to help people avoid a lot of the mistakes
and pitfalls I made for having basically come into wrestling
without a mentor. No one really mentored me my first
three years in wrestling, and I've made every mistake possible,
(05:19):
and even after I had a mentor, I kept on
making mistakes. It's a lifelong journey of learning. So just
trying to one hone in on the things I know
that I've screwed up throughout the years and help people
avoid them. But also because I'm still training people, I mean,
that's still my full time job, I see what is
plaguing people right now. So it gives me two great perspectives.
(05:42):
One I can call on my personal experience, but also
I'm out there every week and every weekend training the
next generation of wrestlers all over the planet, so I
can identify the trends and themes that I see in
current training and help kind of point out where I
think either they're falling short or course correct for any
possible mistakes.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
For sure, And I feel like there's also a generation changes, right,
generation kind of like the atmosphere to the mood changes
for each wrestler, you know.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, absolutely, you know, the wrestling I came into when
I broke in in nineteen ninety four, there's almost not
a trace of that left in the wrestling we're making.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Now, right for sure. Now we've seen the reality shows
that are opening the doors the professional wrestling schools. You've
seen like the Monster Factor on Apple TV, the Wrestlers
on Netflix. Was that anything anything about that you feel
you could be involved with this? Or is that something
(06:43):
you don't want any involvement with?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
You know, before the pandemic, there was an interesting opportunity
that might have seen Jeff Goldbloom bring a series of
his to do something similar like what they did for
the Monster Factory on Apple's But that all kind of
just fell apart, and it was very interesting, And I
think anytime someone's doing work like that, if it's a
(07:08):
documentary or you know, if it's a little closer to
a reality series as long as it's not looking to
make wrestling the punchline of a joke, or to present
the people who are chasing their pro wrestling dreams as
somehow being like less worthy in their hopes and aspirations
(07:29):
than anybody else. Right, I don't think people watch, for example,
American Idol to poke fun at people who aspire to
be great singers. And I would not want to participate
in a series where I feel like the people making
it want to poke fun at those who love pro
wrestling so much they want to make it. I wouldn't
want to be party to that.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Sure, so maybe the door would be open one day
with the right connection or.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Right, you've got a big bag of money, come on,
let's go.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Let's do it. How would yours be different? Like? Have
you watched the other series?
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Are now just little snippets here and enough to be like, yeah,
I don't need to watch that. But I think my
approach has always been, first and foremost, wrestling is an
art form. And I know, you know, just to kind
of talk about a coach who's out there is very
influential and who who's had a real positive impact on
a lot of people. I think if you sat and
(08:26):
listened to Al snow talk for about an hour, you
would realize his approach is pro wrestling is a business first.
So my philosophy, my take on that is really quite
different from a lot of the other coaches out there,
and I think that would inform the perspective of the series.
Wrestling is an art form first and foremost. And yes,
if you want to play at the corporate level, so
(08:47):
by that I mean WWE, AEW or New Japan, If
you want to play at the corporate level, maybe what
you're talking about there is something very different. It's a
product that comes out of the you know, the corporate
sausage factory, and that is a lot about business. That's also,
give or take one percent of the active wrestlers in
(09:09):
the world today, so much emphasis, so much attention is
given to that one percent at the corporate level, but
there aren't a whole lot of them. Speaking about the experience,
the other ninety nine percent of pro wrestlers out there are.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Having right definitely, and we've seen kind of like some
of these TV drama like heels and for example, they
try to incorporate the local stuff having at the local level,
the mom and pop you know, promotions and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Right, I would love to see another stab at it
that's more along the lines of Heels, which felt like,
you know, like a prestige drama in the mold of
like Sopranos or Dexter than another reality series that kind
of seems obsessed with like who's dating who?
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Right, definitely, and you've trained a lot of the spressu
the people may recognize on TV today. So when you
look at that, do you take any satisfaction or was
it just you were just glad to be able to
help them?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah, certainly. You know, when I'm out and about, right,
people often kind of come up and they're like, you know,
did you did you really train Eddie Kingston? Did you
really train Orange Cassidy? Those kinds of questions. It's tough
for me almost to believe the heights to which some
of my proteges have ascended in the world of wrestling.
(10:32):
That I mean, just for example, two weeks ago, I
was teaching down in Tennessee and a guy came up
to talk to me who basically said, you know, my
whole inspiration for becoming a wrestler was Eddie Kingston, and
that's one of my own kids. It's hard for me
almost to like relate to the reality of that. So
I would say, if I'm going to characterize what it
(10:53):
makes me feel, to answer your question very directly. First
and foremost, I feel very proud of my students. I
get to, you know, hear that kind of remark when
people are praising their work, or if I just happened
to catch them on TV. You know, I feel very
proud of them. And yet I don't mind saying there
are times where I also feel very jealous. I think
(11:14):
that myself, Oh wow, you know, maybe if I had
worked on this part of my game harder, you know,
I could be doing that as well. I really wish
I was there doing that alongside some of my most
famous proteges. But I think most of all, it gives
me a sense of I don't necessarily know that satisfaction
is the right word, but fulfillment. There is something fulfilling
(11:37):
about knowing. For example, when Claudio Castignoli moved to the
United States from Switzerland to train with me, his goal
was to go to the WWE. That was his goal.
Being able to help him achieve that goal. The exact
right word is fulfillment.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
And the list goes on and on. How many wrestlers
you help, so tremendous, a lot of female wrestlers as well, right.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
On, Well, thank you, I appreciate you bringing that up.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yes, and you know we've seen like, let's talk about
foreign wrestlers coming to the US over the country. You
just saw that first hand with Claudio. You've seeing more
of them in OSHA's Mackenzie. I know you've had some
history of her. She's now doing this great undertaking you
uproot your entire life and come to the US. And
what are your thoughts on that? Right?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
I admire the people who are willing to just say,
you know what, let's forget everything I've got going on
at my home base. I'm gonna move halfway around the
world to go train in a garage with this skinny guy.
So thanks to everybody who put their faith in me
for that. But yeah, I have tremendous admiration for the
people who are willing to do that, whether it's right,
(12:52):
Like Claudio came from Switzerland, a bunch of Aussies throughout
the years have come across the ocean to train with me.
At the wrestle factory for a few weeks, some for
a summer, some for a whole year, or the reverse.
Like for example, Alistair Black Malachi Black, he and some
of his Dutch friends used to fly me to the
(13:13):
Netherlands and I would train them over there. That also
is an incredible sacrifice that they would work at their
regular jobs for half a year to save up enough
money to bring me to them so I could teach them.
So anything like that. Whenever I hear a story that
just strikes me as people going above and beyond, I
have a lot of admiration for.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
That, definitely, And when you see I want to get
your thoughts outside the box the question about celebrities trying
to become professional wrestlers, and you know they're of all ages,
some of them younger and some of them are older.
How do you feel about that? And then like the
utilization of them? You know that you know some people
believe they're taking up a spot from someone who's season
(13:54):
and someone who's ready to shine.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
How do you feel, Yes, I certainly understand that. In fact,
in one of my early books, I even kind of
wrote a bit of a tirade about when Shane McMahon
would get put on a WrestleMania in a spot of
somebody maybe from the middle of the pack in the
WWF roster, who desperately needed that spotlight, and I do
understand that sometimes I feel that way too. However, if
(14:23):
they're able to kind of raise the profile of a
wrestling organization or an entire event and they're drawing more eyeballs,
well ultimately they're drawing more money, and that means at
least for one more month, everybody is getting a paycheck.
Everybody still is employed, everybody still has a place to
go to work, and none of that's guaranteed in wrestling.
(14:44):
You know, as a guy who came up during the
era when both WCW and ECW seemed like viable alternatives
to going to work for the McMahon empire, I know
very well these fixtures in wrestling are not permanent. You
might imagine that because Tony Kahn's got a virtually limitless
(15:05):
bank account, that AEW is here to stay. No, we
all thought that about Ted Turner, a billionaire back in
the nineties when being a billionaire meant a whole lot
more than it does today. His company's not still around,
so you can't take any of that for granted, Does
that mean that every instance of a celebrity helping to
(15:27):
boost the profile of an event or a match is great?
I wouldn't go that far, but when used correctly, they
can be a real benefit.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Right right, And then what would be example of a
used well, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
It's funny, it's it's almost easier to imagine the ones
that are the opposite of that. But like just one example, right,
and now, granted he was only there as a special referee,
but when Mike Tyson came in to referee for the WWE,
like that was a brilliant use of a celebrity who
you know, grinned he was still active at that time
as a boxer, unlike you know, for example, a fight
(16:07):
he had earlier this year where he's been not so active.
But finding those exact right places to deploy them is
the key. And there have certainly been a laundry list
of examples. I mean, I know we were talking about
WCW a moment ago. They're as guilty as anybody, right, Like,
we'd never need Jay Leno to be putting an arm
(16:29):
bar on anybody. How many leapfrogs can Dennis Rodman do
in one single match. However, like, look, I think Bad
Bunny is an interesting example of someone who really does
add something and also you can tell loves the craft.
So it's not like we're seeing Bad Bunny in twenty
(16:51):
matches a year. Right, When Bad Bunny pops up, it
really does mean something and it does move the needle.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yes for sure. And then talk about more of what
you're doing with till we make it. And have you
found that you've inspired wrestlers that hey, they listened to
you and you made a difference.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah, that especially this year as I've gotten out a lot.
Like I said, I taught more than one hundred seminars
this year. It's been really very gratifying to meet people.
Almost every single school I've gone to there's been at
least one person who said, I never thought I could
do this until I watched your series. It really gave
me the confidence to try. So it's been fun meeting
(17:35):
people this year who are so brand new to it.
You know, many of them they're not even ready to
have their first matches yet. But it fills me with
hope for like, what are these guys going to be
like two to three years down the line. If they
are so serious about the craft that they've watched hundreds
of tutorial videos in addition to being serious enough to
(17:57):
put down money at a training school and enrolled to
become a wrestler, I can't wait to see what that
incoming generation is like that they take the training that seriously,
because in past generations there certainly have been lots and
lots of wrestlers out there who feel like I train
and then at some point training is over, or like
(18:19):
I learned everything there is to learn and now I
don't need to keep training. And wrestling is such a
dynamic art form you're never done learning. There is always
something more. There's something new being innovated. This weekend, someone
somewhere is going to invent a new wrestling move. Guarantee
wrestling never stops evolving.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Yes, yes, exactly. And from when you've helped book and
promote shows, when you look at at at events that
are like being advertised, and you know you talked about
this and what your videos are. How to start a
wrestling promotion just by looking at like the flyer or
the location or anything, can you tell they're going to
succeed or not?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
I have a good indicator. Do I know one hundred percent? No,
But you can learn a lot, right, Like you see
a great looking poster or flyer out there side by
side with a terrible looking one, you know something about
the organization putting it on the way that they present
that if that's their first impression, is that piece of marketing? Uh?
(19:25):
And it's almost meme worthy, right, there's a I'm sure
there's nothing but like a social media channel that's nothing
but terrible wrestling posters that you can look at. Right,
there's some horrendous ones out there you can tell. And
it's the same people often ask, like, oh, when a
new wrestler walks into your school, can you tell right
away if they're going to be a superstar. I don't
(19:46):
think anyone can tell you with one hundred percent certainty
yes or no. I just don't think you can. You
could have a pretty strong hunch, though, And that's how
I feel when I see some of those posters or
flyers or like some of these. You know, there definitely
are companies out there posting promos where like a wrestlers
just sat in their Honda Civic in their street clothes,
(20:08):
cutting a promo into their phone, if that's what you're
willing to put out there in terms of marketing, I
know something about the kind of customers you're going to attract.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Right So, so you know, have you ever had other
promoters reach out and ask you about that or that's
something you're kind of more hands off on.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
No, So that is a lot of the work I
do in wrestling now. It's consulting work. So there's wrestling
organizations on five of the seven continents now that I
do consulting work for. And it's whether it's about the
marketing material, the way they assemble their cards, the talent
that they hire. And then a lot of times we
watch the events afterwards and we're looking to fine tune
(20:48):
what could work more efficiently here, what would be a
better spend in terms of dollars to get a return
on investment. That type of work behind the scenes has
become a huge part of what I do. So not
only am out they're coaching wrestlers, also do consulting with bookers,
promoters and owners of wrestling promotions for sure.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
And then I wanted to get your thoughts on what
w has rolled out recently, the wid the scouting. What
is your opinion on that.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Right, So it's almost too new to really know, but
I am cautious about it. Everyone was very optimistic when
nxt UK was announced, and all of a sudden they
started kind of putting their stamp on a bunch of
UK based wrestlers. However, there are promoters over there in
that scene right now who will tell you in the
(21:40):
long term, nxt UK damaged the independence in the United
Kingdom and it's too soon to know what the impact
of the WWEID system will be. It's interesting. I think
the people who are being recognized by and large, they
are very deserving to be recognized, and that's cool to
(22:02):
let people know, Hey, we're paying attention to what you do.
I think you know, before the regime change took place,
you know, give or take about a year ago, something
like this would not have been possible. This is very
much like a collective brainchild of the Triple H's, the
Shawn Michaels, even Gabe Sapolski plays a very strong hand
in this coming into fruition. Over the long term, will
(22:25):
this be something positive or negative? I don't know. We'll
wwe ID endorsed people suddenly raise their rates suddenly will
they tell people, you know, I've got to be booked
in a certain way or I won't appear on your card.
It'll be very interesting to see at the end of
year one, how has this changed the independence, if at all.
(22:47):
It's also possible it will have no genuine impact. And
when will they actually pull the trigger and sign one
of these people. That's also something I think we're all
kind of eagerly anticipated.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, it could be very well, Oh, they need someone.
They didn't look at anyone their ID they had, They
already had their eye on someone that wasn't a scouted
or prospect, right, right, So.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
It's interesting, you know, they have so many fascinating avenues
between the next in Line program you know now w W, E,
I D. And the fact that they continue to go
out there and cherry pick some of the most in
demand people out there. Right the recent acquisition of Julia,
they snatched her away from Marigold. You could make the
argument she was the it girl in Joshie Wrestling at
(23:34):
the moment that they snatched her up. So right, it's
a fascinating time. As ever, there's never a dull moment
in wrestling.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Yes for sure, And yeah, I wanted to get your
thoughts on that. It is like, if this was one
of your students that would get that that prospect, I'd like,
what would you say to them? Like, how would you
react to that? You know?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
I think I'd be like, the next cup of coffee
is on you, for sure?
Speaker 1 (24:03):
You know.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I'm sure this conversation is being had a lot of places,
Sean because it is so new and people really don't
quite know what to make of it. And I'm curious
if you have any sense of this. Do you feel
like this is doing enough to raise awareness of certain
independent wrestlers that WWE fans would be willing to try
(24:29):
independent wrestling? What do you think?
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Not to me, I don't think so. Yeah, I wish right.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
I think ww fans first and foremost they want the
stars that they see on television, Yes, and they are
not going to a show that isn't headlined by Rhea Ripley, Live,
Morgan Roman, Reigns, et cetera as fantastically talented. Just to
call somebody out who I'm I'm a big fan of
Cappuccino Jones, He's WWE. I d do I think him
(25:00):
having that on his social media is selling even two
more tickets. I don't think so. I wish more people
should watch that kid. He's incredible, yes, but I don't
think it makes any difference at the door.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah, we have Kylie Ray in Chicago.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
So right, super talented, yes, But I don't know that
w W I D on the social medis means anything.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
No, probably not. And you know what, I'm just happy that,
you know, we're all happy for for all the vessels
that got chosen right, right, and it did. Do you
think that it's kind of like maybe a little supplement
of income would help them in some way? Maybe maybe
we can look at it that way.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I mean, in some way, shape or form, it does
raise their profile. And a wrestler who's smart enough to
diversify their income that they have revenue coming like from
you know, merchandise sales, being on cameo. There's all these
additional revenue streams available to you just waiting to be
taken advantage of and having the industry leader. Right, no
(26:03):
company generates more money than the Wwe just listen to
their investor calls, right, Like, I'm not trying to make
some claim that can't be backed up by dollars and
cents here. They are the industry leader. Getting a stamp
of approval from them has to benefit you in some way,
shape or form. I'll be very curious to know, though,
(26:23):
anybody wants to come out after a year of WWEID
and talk about, Yeah, I saw, you know, fifteen percent
more T shirt sales than the year before. I'm dying
to hear those numbers.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Yes, yes, same here as well. And when you look
at what the work you're doing, you know, talk about
how do you feel like you've been able to expand
your your following to other countries and beyond.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Right, Yes, And you know, for a while, I was
very I went through a long period where I was
burned out on traveling. Okay, I just I would have
these offers come in, Like a couple of years back,
I very nice offer to go to South America, and
I just kind of let it die on the vine.
I was tired of being on planes, I was tired
(27:07):
of always living out of a suitcase. And I passed
on a lot of those opportunities. Post pandemic and especially
thanks to the power of till we make it, Suddenly
people started calling, Hey, do you want to come to Australia, Hey,
do you want to come to Europe? And this time around,
when they said, do you want to come to South America?
(27:28):
Maybe visit Argentina, see Chile, teach some wrestlers down here.
This time around, I felt like, you know what, I
better jump on this and realizing whether it's being at
the bottom of the Southern Hemisphere and somebody comes up
with a copy of Seven Keys to Becoming a Better Performer,
(27:49):
a book I wrote years ago, and saying I read
this and I'm you know, I came all this way
just to get your autograph. It made me realize my
body of work as a whole. Whether you whether you
know me from my books, you know me from YouTube,
you were a big Chakara fan, you followed my career
for years and years. Whatever way I crept into your
wrestling sphere, I never imagined in a million years it
(28:14):
would have the level of influence that it did. And
this year especially to get out there, you know, whether
it's going to other countries or even you know, I
do a lot of my teaching online through zoom, I
hold webinars, teaching webinars in countries I'll probably never visit.
It's not very likely I'm going to go visit Ukraine.
(28:37):
But you know what, I'm teaching wrestlers in Ukraine through
the magic of zoom. All of that's been quite shocking.
It's been the most pleasant surprise for someone who you know. Here,
I am thirty plus years into my career. It should
probably feel like it's on its last legs, and yet
I just had my best year ever in wrestling. So
(28:58):
no one's more surprised by this than me.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Definitely. Congratulations. Hey, we can talk about your upcoming book
if you like.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yes, So, my upcoming book is called We'll most likely
be called Your Best Match.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Okay, And you had mentioned.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
My most recent book as well, Pro Wrestling History, Six
Threads in sixteen Decades. It's out now. You can get
it on Amazon or Audible. And just to be clear,
some people who are interested in the book, I just
want you to realize this. In that book, we're only
going to follow six threads historically. So if you want
to trace, for example, the history of tag team wrestling,
(29:37):
that's one of the six threads in the book. But
some people were like, oh, I thought this was like
a complete history of pro wrestling. If you want to
read about the Monday Night wars. There are so many
great books out there for you to go and read,
and probably documentaries too. I don't need to be writing
about that, but I do want to tell you about
the history of intergender wrestling and where that came from.
(29:59):
That's in Pro wrestle History, the one I've been working
on these last seven or eight months, Your Best Match.
It's really like a very example based breakdown of the
underlying structure of how wrestling matches are assembled. So if
I was going to explain to a brand new wrestler
what elements have to be present in their entrance to
(30:20):
connect their character to the crowd, I want to also
in the book be able to include an example that says,
if you want to see a wrestler who's great at this, well,
go watch WrestleMania thirty because on this match they do
exactly the skill I'm talking about. And with a little
bit of luck here, I should be done with it
in a couple months. I had hoped it would be
(30:42):
done in twenty twenty four, and this was foolish. Why
I thought I'd be done with it that fast, I
do not know, but it's taken me a little bit longer.
But I do not want to put this book out.
This will be my eleventh unless I'm absolutely happy with it.
In the past, you might know, I spent ten years
(31:04):
working for Pro Wrestling, Illustrated and the sister magazines. When
I was there, I worked on a tight deadline, like
any magazine writer does. Your editor might call you up
on a Monday morning and say, by Friday at five pm,
I need fifteen hundred words about the Triple Crown in
All Japan Pro Wrestling. While I was on a deadline,
(31:24):
those words had to be in my editor's inbox before
the end of business on Friday. But the great joy
of being able to write your own books and all
that is without a strict publishing deal. I put all
my own books out on my own. There is no
editor to call me up and say, Mike, that book's
got to be done by Friday. If I'm not satisfied
(31:46):
with it, I can just do another draft, do another
draft until I've simplified it to the point that I
feel like a brand new wrestler could read this and
feel like you just gave me the blueprint for my
first hundred matches.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Oh that's very good, very influential.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Yeah, well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah, I'm sure a lot of That's why I want
to you know, coming because we do have a lot
of Chicago space and Midwest based wrestlers that listen to podcasts.
So I feel like it's great to have you on
and then you can connect with them, connect with you
for sure. And then I wanted to ask you about
for you, what else do you want fans to know
(32:27):
about you? Like and and what's going on? Do you
have any other activities outside of professional russel You've talked
about that videos like you have to have like this
downtime between you know, you just can't live your whole
you know, your whole week through professional wrestling. Right.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
It's so easy to fall into that trap, right because
there's so much wrestling being made every week now, just
between WWE and ae W, there's like, what thirteen hours
of new wrestling every week. It can easily gobble up
every free minute that you have. And not that I'm
saying that I think wrestlers should avoid wrestling. I think
(33:04):
it's important to stay connected. However, you must have some balance,
You've got to have something outside the world of wrestling.
You have to be able to socialize with people who
aren't working in wrestling and have normal, regular human conversations
with them. Here's how I think you'll know if you're
going wrong. If you're at a family function over the
(33:26):
holidays and you try to make every conversation about wrestling,
I think things are a little out of balance. There's
a time and a place to love and talk about wrestling,
there absolutely is, but it's not every minute of every
day forever. You got to go out see some movies.
I love going to see live performance. I just found
(33:49):
out like two months from now, not far from here,
circ de Sole is coming with the show I haven't
seen yet. That excites my imagination going to see great
concerts even and if when I'm done from that, I think,
oh I saw something there that would look so cool
if I could do it in the ring. I didn't
go there necessarily because I thought, oh, I'm going to
(34:09):
feel inspired in some way. I went because I need
to experience stuff out there that isn't just more wrestling.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Right for sure? And then another thing is I wanted
to talk about being a booker, is that how do
you categorize what your show will be. Is it going
to be a family show, is it going to be
more for adults, and do you go buy the base
on the region or the community you're in.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
I mean, certainly you can. I think my instinct on
that is what are the kinds of stories you want
to be able to tell? So, for example, you know,
I made twenty one seasons of Chakara, and it was
heavily influenced by the comic books I grew up reading,
as well as like the TV shows that I really enjoyed,
(34:54):
in particular Lost and the rebooted Battlestar Galactico, which were
both heavily serialized science fiction television shows. So just hearing
that comic books and sci fi, you probably have a
vague sense of what the style is going to be.
It did not make sense to do those shows, you know,
(35:15):
with an R rating, with an NC seventeen rating, but
you might want to tell those kinds of stories, and
that's cool too. I think wrestling is pliable enough as
an art form that you can tell any kind of
story you want to tell. What Luja Underground was able
to do is completely different from the kinds of things
that John Cena era WWE was doing, and that's cool.
(35:39):
It's cool that our art form can support these different
types of storytelling. But when it comes down to you know,
do you want an adult show, do you want a
family friendly show? Do you want something that trends more
comedic or more serious? The easiest way to answer that
is what kind of stories do you want to tell?
And then who is the audience that's going to come
(36:01):
see those? And hopefully you get that right for sure?
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Yeah, I feel like that's that's what you said in
a nutshell as well.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Hm, right, because every once and again you get it wrong.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
And then lastly, you know, let's say someone aspiring to
be a wrestler doesn't know you, they're just checking us out,
and you could have, like, you know, a two minute conversation.
What would you tell them and what advice could you
give them?
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Well, I think if you're passionate about professional wrestling, and
you've gotten to that point now where just watching it
isn't enough, it doesn't scratch the itch anymore, you got
to take that next step. I want to give you
a little bit of a dose of reality and a
little bit of encouragement. So here comes the reality wrestling.
(36:51):
I think should be made with everyone in mind, But
that doesn't mean that everyone can also make pro wrestling.
Does that mean that you can't try? You absolutely can.
Everyone can try, But you may come to realize that
the way in which you can best contribute is actually
(37:11):
by being a referee, by being a ringside manager, by
being an announcer or commentator. There are so many jobs
in wrestling besides being a wrestler, and if you're looking
for a way to contribute, but you go and you
take one day of training, you take that first bump
in the middle of the ring, and your body tells
(37:32):
you this is not what we are doing for the
rest of our lives. No, thank you. I don't want
you to feel like your dreams have just been shattered.
There is so much opportunity within wrestling that will never
require you to take another bump. So even if you're
one of those people who feels like, well, I don't
think like I'm built for this, I don't think I'm
(37:53):
quite right for this, try and also appreciate it isn't
right for everyone. That's just the truth. Being apart is
not right for everyone. However, there's lots of other things
to do in wrestling as well. There are other ways
for you to contribute and for you to be part
of this weird, wonderful thing we all love.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
Definitely, Like I didn't even realize that they the wrestlers
need rides that come from out of town, right, and
then closer I came, I was like, okay, so then
you need to be someone pick them up and drop
them off, and you just the little things like that,
or who's setting up the ring, who's setting up the
entrance and the lighting and everything like that.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Right, having a great lighting guy right now might be
the most underrated job in all of wrestling.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, definitely, so I could definitely see that. Even if
you're doing a podcast like I am, you know you're contributing.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
So that's right, exactly right.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
And but professional wrestling though, I feel like it, like
it said, it can outreach to anybody that that once
again involved, right.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Yes, most definitely, And if you're that curious about it,
I think you owe it to yourself to try.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Definitely. Well, Mike, I appreciate you once again being on
pwe Report and anything you'd like to plug, go ahead.
The time is yours to plug your social media whatever
you want.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Well, thanks very much. The best place to find me
is on YouTube if you search till we make it.
I bet you I'm the top result on that search,
and as I said, there's about seven hundred videos now
that make up that project over on till we make it.
If there's a topic you're interested in in pro wrestling,
I bet you there's at least two videos now on
(39:34):
that topic over on my channel. Go ahead and dive in,
and that will connect you to everything else that I do.
Right through there, you'll be able to find everything else
from links to my books, to my other social media, etc.
And if you are watching and you are a coach,
a trainer, and having me come to your school or
(39:55):
even teaching remotely like I do through Zoom might help
benefit you and your students, by all means, please reach out.
That is my full time job. Every day of the week,
I'm out there helping some group of wrestlers somewhere in
the world, and I'd love to team up with you too.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Awesome. Well, I appreciate you, Mike, being on the PW Report,
and you're a great example of like after you know
the inn ring career, how you can extend your career
and professional wrestling extend your livelihood.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Right absolutely, and thank you very much. I appreciate you
giving me the platform to speak to all of your.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Listeners, no problem, anytime. Before I let you go, could
you do one favor and just do a quick shout
out for a PWE report. Here's a pro wrestling enforcer PWE.
It's fine, and I'm going to stop this in video
and starting you one. Is that a right?
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Let's do it all right,
Popular Podcasts
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com