EMDR FOR TRAUMA

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Psychological Theories Podcast. In this podcast, we
take a journey into the human mind with one psychological
theory at a time. So let's begin. Welcome everyone. Well,
we have a great guest today, doctor Roger Solomon. You
can find more information about him at Roger M. Solomon

(00:23):
s O L O M O N dot com or
E M d R dot com. He's a psychologist and
a psychotherapist specializing in the areas of trauma and grief.
He's on the senior faculty of the E M d
R Institute, which we're going to be talking about today,
and he's also provides basic in advanced em DR training
that a slew of it at the E MDR dot com.

(00:45):
Great stuff there. He's trained internationally and currently consults with
the US Senate, NASA, and several law enforcement agencies. He's
provided clinical services to the FBI, Secret Service, to US
State Department, and a host of others. We just don't
have all the time of the day to cover everything.
He's got a lot of experience. He's gonna tell us
a lot about EMDR and how that works with trauma.

(01:05):
Before we get started, we want to suppart our podcast.
Make sure to share and subscribe. I hit that like,
but we really appreciate that. Let's not waste any more time.
Welcome to the show, Doctor Soliman, Welcome, Sar.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
Hello, thank you for having me on your show.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Thank you very much for being here. This is a
it's an interesting topic because I've covered a lot of
trauma in the last few weeks. We've had a lot
of experts on here, just like yourself, and EMDR is
something I do hear a lot of I never had
anybody talk about it before.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
So let's do this.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
Tell me a little bit about your work in trauma
and then we'll get started to EMDR.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
Okay, So, No, as you mentioned, I specialize in trauma
and grief and my career I've worked with first responders.
I've been a police psychologist the first fifteen years of
my career, and now I work with complex trauma and dissociation.

(02:06):
I work with adults who've been sexually abused as children.
And again, EMDR, of course is a centerpiece of the
therapy that I do. So I do want to say
that EMDR therapy is an integrative psycho therapeutic approach. So

(02:31):
before I go on about EMDR therapies, the more you
wanted to ask me about my background or what I do.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
You know, it's interesting on the child abuse, a lot
of people don't realize a lot of times that stuff
becomes hidden, right, there's little fragmentations of ourselves and we
have to try to go back and access that. A
lot of people think when they're working with trauma and
tell us a little bit about child abuse and how
does that differ, Like you said, first responder, a police

(03:00):
officers encounter a lot of different types of child that
people don't realize that going in and seeing a child
that's been killed or a child that molested, seeing crime
scenes that they didn't expect to see, car accidents, whatnot.
But how does child abuse differ from adult?

Speaker 2 (03:19):
All Right, so as an adult, you know, first responder,
we're talking about single episode trauma. We have an intact
adult who goes and has to engage in some horrible
activities and sees horrible things, you know, the worst that

(03:40):
society has to offer. And for police officers, there's life
and death issues that occur. For firemen running into a
burning building, you know, first responders are putting their life
at risk, and indeed there are moments when they believe
they're going to die, and many have died in the
line of duty. So we're talking though, about intact adults

(04:04):
who go through something horrible. So when we're talking about
child abuse, we're talking about a vulnerable child whose brain
maybe is not fully developed. And we're also talking not

(04:26):
just about the abuse itself, but we're talking about attachment trauma,
attachment shock. So I would like to say that complex
trauma and dissociate disorders have at its root disorganized attachment,

(04:47):
where the source of safety, the caregiver, can also be
the source of terror. I also want to say neglect
is also very important. For example, there's a client that
I'm working with now who experienced a lot of neglect

(05:09):
from her parents. This left her very vulnerable to the
attention of a psychopathic gardener when she was six years old.
So a psychopath can detect when there is a child

(05:31):
who's very hungry for a relationship and play into that
and then ending up for abuse. So the abuse would
happen and the child would go home not really tell anybody,

(05:52):
but then again at home already felt invisible, not seen.
So we have the disorgan attachment style. The parents were
supposed to be a source of safety, but there was
a lot of neglect. They were not a source of safety.

(06:12):
And then we have the abuse that happened when she
was six, So this is important to take into account
and something else that I'm also spending a lot of
time doing presentations on and clinical work on that. A
lot of times the attachment trauma is worse than the

(06:35):
abuse that was done. So because this is happening at
a very vulnerable age and interfering with the attachment relationships,
it has a long lasting impact. Also on the sense
of self. It has an impact on the person's ability

(06:57):
to regulate their affect can be a lot of shame
and self blame. For example, this client who I was
telling you about blamed herself. You know, the gardener was
attracted to my body, so it's my fault. And then
we go and explore that, And what that's about is, well,

(07:19):
if it's my fault, not the gardener's fault, then it's
not the fault of an adult. And then it's not
the fault of my parents who didn't protect me and
who neglected me, who didn't see me. So I hope
you hearing that the impact of the attachment, the disorganized

(07:42):
attachment as well as the abuse on the sense of self.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
It seems like it's very important to keep this kind
of image of their parents pristine and shifting that blame
to themselves. Right, You want to keep them to their
parents almost as perfect vision in their head. Is that
active representation?

Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yes, we want parents who are a source of safety
and comfort and love and yilt can be the price
we pay also to feel in control, to make the
world predictable.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
So that's a good point too, Yeah, because we don't
that's the difference between a biological child abuse situation compared
to a stranger who abuses you.

Speaker 2 (08:27):
Correct, Yes, there's certainly there certainly is a difference. So
certainly when the source of safety and the source of
terror are the same, it certainly has a very negative impact.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
I remember talking to a pastor. There's a pastor turnip Seed,
and he has a powerful story where he says, when
he was telling his story about his father being the abuser,
he said, when I when I was little, I used
to always get worried about the boogeyman, and my world
changed when my boogeyman was my father. He was the

(09:06):
one who became the major threat. At age five, or
six years of age and then threw his world upside down.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Yes, so certainly when the cagiver is directly involved, it's
much more intense and it's very significant and deep impact.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
Now I know a lot of trauma experts such as yourself. Now,
I'm not sure if you believe this, and I think
you do, but a lot of them say, you're going
to have to go back to find these fragmented cells
and to resolve these inner conflicts. But that journey is painful,
and from what I've been hearing and talking to other individuals,

(09:46):
EMDR provides a way to do that.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
No, not directly. So one I agree with you and
the people that you've talked to that there is fragmentation
of the personality. So when we're talking about complex trauma dissociation,
we have to do preparation work to deal with the
parts of self and get collaboration and cooperation among the

(10:14):
different parts of the personality with adult leadership. The person
also has to be able to calm do self soothing.
So this is the stabilization part of therapy. And when
the person has the ability to stay present with the

(10:37):
memory and has the integrative capacity to stay present with
the emotions that can come on up, and we have
cooperation and collaboration among the different parts of the personality
with the adult leadership, then we can do the memory work.

(10:59):
And this is where EMDR therapy is very, very helpful.
The theory is that experiences that are too much to
integrate get maladaptively stored in the brain. They're not able

(11:20):
to fully process, and they're stored and state specific form.
There's still the agitation, there's the reenactment, there's a psychophysiological
arousal that gets frozen in the brain. The thoughts, the images,

(11:40):
the beliefs, it's my fault, I'm shameful, I'm bad get
maladaptively stored in the brain. So what EMDR therapy is,
it's a it's an empirically evidence based treatment for these
disturbing memories.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
Okay, I got it. Okay, I know one of the
analogies I like to use a lot, And I'm gonna
ask you a question that I always get from fledgling
therapists all the time before I do that. But the
analogy I usually use with the therapist because a lot
of times of the Dante's Divine comedy, right, the client
is Dante themselves. And the guide Virgil takes them down

(12:25):
through Hell the nine circles, and you're kind of visiting
all these fragmented personalities that we have. We have to
go through that journey all the way up. But one
of the things the questions I always get from the
fledgling therapist is always how do you know they're ready
to handle a certain memory, a certain trauma. How do

(12:50):
you know can you know?

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yes? Yes? So, first of all, if we're talking about
somebody with childhood abuse or even with adult onset trauma,
we want to do an assessment. So there's a number
of psychological questionnaires that can be given to assess the

(13:13):
level of dissociation. We want to ask about background, we
want to ask about the attachment relationships, that's what's going on,
not only would happened in the past, How is life now?
Assess self esteem, their ability to regulate emotions and affect,

(13:33):
and ask how the relationships are going. Also with the
MDR therapy, one of the things we do is a
safe space exercise, like to say where do you feel
safe or a resource We call it resource development and installation.

(13:54):
Think of a mastery experience, a moment you felt confident,
competent and good about yourself. So we identify these experiences
and then we can add the bilateral stimulation that we
do with the MDR therapy, and quite typically what happens
is the positive feelings enhance. Now this will say this

(14:17):
says something one does it enhance or do other disturbing
emotions start to come up? Or nothing happens because they're
emotionally flat. So we can start out with stabilization and
see how they respond to it. Now, the other thing
that we would be you know, we could be doing

(14:40):
is of course asking the client besides, how's life going? Now?
Think about the memory and when they tell us about
what happened? Are they able to stay present? Are they
we don't need to have the details, but are they
capable of telling us what happened? They're able to stay present?

(15:02):
In other words, there is a beginning and a middle
and an end. And even if they're crying as they
tell us, they're not discombobulating. And of course how are
they functioning in everyday life? So we have a session
with somebody, what happens when they go home? And the
time does come, maybe when they their social situation is

(15:27):
stabilized at a good enough level. So the person is
able to stay present at a good enough level self sooth,
they have calming skills, their psychosocial environment to a good
enough level is stabilized. Then we can start processing the memory.

(15:49):
And it's very interactive. So we bring up the memory
and we want to we want to have the person
think about the image. Right, what's the worst moment? We
get a negative, irrational belief about the self. I'm not safe,
it's my fault. I'm not lovable, you know. For example,

(16:13):
it's the meaning of the event to the self that
we call it a negative cognition. It's a verbalization of
the affect that's maladaptively stored from that memory. I'm not
good enough, I'm not lovable, I'm powerless. And then we
identify a positive cognition, which is a therapeutic goal. I

(16:39):
am good enough, I am lovable. I did the best
I could. We take a rating. Well, how true does
that feel to you now you bring up the memory?
How true are the words through the words I'm safe
now feel to you on a one to seventh scale
one false, seven true. Usually it's low. Well, my head
knows it's true. You know I'm safe, I'm talking to you,

(17:01):
but in my guts, no, it's a one, it's a two.
And then we're going to get the emotions start going
deeper now and then how disturbing zero to tent and
being the worst zero calm? Where do you feel in
your body? So as we start to go through this,
also we're able to assess can the person stay present

(17:22):
as well? Plus this is a very helpful therapeutic discussion
in and of itself. We want to go and activate
the memory the way access the memory, the way that
it's stored in the brain. So now we've accessed it,

(17:43):
then we can start doing the bilateral stimulation. It could
be eye movement and could be auditory. It could be
like you know, tapping, especially on online. Maybe a person
might do something like this, and we'll do maybe thirty
seconds or so twenty thirty seconds more or less depending

(18:05):
on the client, And then we ask would you notice,
so we can assess each step of the way how
the client is doing and if is it are the
associations coming up that are adaptive? Is the tension releasing?

(18:26):
Are they getting therapeutic helpful adaptive insights as the memories resolving? Okay?
Orre's a lot of affect coming up that's too much,
in which case there's a number of different things that
we can do to slow it down. So there's a
number of a number of ways we can do to

(18:48):
first of all, stabilize the client as needed, assess their
capacity to stay present with the trauma. We can increase
their integrative capacity ability to self regulate as needed. A
lot of people don't need it. And then we can

(19:08):
start doing the memory work. And at each point along
the way, we can either continue or we can stop,
and we ask our clients to give us a stop signals.
If something's too much, let me know and we'll stop.
See what's going on. So we build in these safeguards,

(19:28):
we're not just plunging into an exposure overload.

Speaker 1 (19:34):
Fascinating stuff.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
Fascinating.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
Can you tell us a little bit about how the
bilateralization works.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yes, Well, First of all, what I do want to
say is that studies have pretty much conclusively now shown
that the eye movement in and of itself does have
a therapeutic effect. An EMDR therapy does change the way
the memory is stored in the brain. There's studies, neurological

(20:06):
studies that have shown PrePost EEG's quantitative EEGs of the
brain before and after treatment. So there's a number of
different theories. One theory that's received a lot of empirical
support is that when you bring up the memory and

(20:29):
you do some Bilouder stimulation, it interferes with the working memory,
all right, So what research has shown is that the images,
negative images, and negative feelings will decrease. So that's an
important part of the story. But there's more. The adaptive

(20:50):
information processing model, which guides EMDR therapy, you know, says
that present problems are the result of these past experiences
is maladaptively stored. So we access that and then we
do the bilateral stimulation, and what this seems to do
is to stimulate the brain's natural healing mechanisms. Maybe there's

(21:14):
some of the same mechanisms that are occurring during sleep,
certainly you know rem sleep when we're dreaming, and research
strongly suggests that maybe slow wave sleep, which which pushes
the memories, pushes a trauma through the brain. So what
starts to happen is that the memory as it's getting

(21:38):
reprocessed the MDR therapy, you know, the working memory is
interfered with negative images, decrease, emotions decrease, and what happens
is that the adaptive information that we have that's stored
in the brain starts to link in. So we have
maladaptively stored information. We have adaptive information I'm going to die,

(22:02):
but I know I'm safe. It's just not it's not connecting.
So when we go through the protocol, and it's so
much more than just eye movement, so much more that
adaptive information is able to link in, and that maladaptively
stored memory integrates within the wider memory network, is no

(22:24):
longer no longer isolated, and actually becomes part of a
person's resilience. It's something that happened, it's not happening. Now
I survived, and now it becomes a resource that can
inform future behavior.

Speaker 1 (22:46):
That's very important too. That's amazing step. So as it
affects working memory, short term and then long term memory,
and then it helps them to be able to deal
with future I guess incidences in remember the right remind
them of that trauma. So if they have an incident.
Let's say we have a military soldier he has PTSD.

(23:08):
There's a story I always share about a friend of
mine whose daughter ended up going on a first date
with a military soldier. And on the first date, he said,
bring over a movie. We're going to have dinner. He
was in the kitchen cooking. She puts down the movie
into the TV. I don't know if you ever saw
Blackhawk Down.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
I did not the best.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
Movie, probably for somebody with PTSD. She didn't know he
had anything. She put the movie in. I don't even
know he realized it. And when he started going thro
the scenes of shooting, which is like eighty percent of
the movie, when it started going, he became catatonic and
she couldn't tell what was going on. He wasn't talking,
he wasn't doing anything.

Speaker 3 (23:49):
He was just sitting there in the kitchen and she
eventually she had a call nine one one.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
But does it help you with that? Said? You said, resilience.
Those are kind of reminded me of this. So when
that individual is starting to I'm going to tell me
if I'm correct here. So the detaching the negative maladaptive
memories or emotions or cognitions from their memories and attaching
these positive cognitions is that's helping them the next time
they may encounter an incident like that. They could have

(24:18):
retraumatized them, as they provide that.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
Point, Yes it does, and there's been resource of with
children I believe that have shown that. So what EMDR therapy,
what we'll do is one way to think about it.
It changes the way the memory is stored in the brain.

(24:41):
So another important mechanism is the reconsolidation of the memory.
When a memory is activated, and there's also some new
information available, that memory has the potential to be stored
in a new way. So we can look at EMDR therapy.
It's changing the way the memory is stored. The memory

(25:03):
gets reconsolidated. So as one veteran put it to the
the uh, he was, you know, commander of a convoy
and and and and somebody a local person as he
puts it. And he's in Afghanistan. He's on a motorcycle

(25:25):
trying to get close and just won't go away. So
he has to give the order to to take him down.
So they run them over and they make eye contact.
And this was the worst part. And this is a
veteran of firefights and even a helicopter crashed, but that
eye contact made it personal and you felt a lot
of guilt. And so is reliving this and you're continually

(25:47):
reliving this. So we use MDR therapy to you know,
reprocess this memory and then he's able to say, I
did what I needed to do to keep me safe,
to keep the men safe, and knew did what uh
I needed to do to survive. And then he says
it's over. I can think about it now. It's in

(26:09):
the past, not feeling it now. So that is what
integration is. It's something that happened, and it happened to me,
but it's not happening now and them, Your therapy is
not going to take away appropriate emotions. It's not going
to take away anything that is true. It's something bad

(26:32):
that happened that's over, and I survived and can indeed
inform the future that I survived. I can learn from this,
and so the next time they encounter something similar, something similar,

(26:54):
it's not going to trigger the past trauma. So it's
very important for people, for first responders, people exposed to
danger all the time, to have ways to clear out
the trauma, otherwise it can have accumulative effect.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
That's very problematic.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yes, so we reprocess the memory. It's something that happened
that's not happening now. I can learn from it, and
this informs future behavior. So the next time there's some
kind of a critical encounter, the person can focus on
what's happening with all the choices of response, instead of
a past memory of fear, for example, being triggered and

(27:39):
the person responding solely out of fear from past events
that have accumulated and are maladaptively stored.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
Fascinating when you said the reconsolidation of the memory, and
then I've started thinking about things I've heard of regards
the temporality there. I can see there's something to do
with time. A lot of these individuals will when they
get retraumatizer think about it. As you mentioned, the access
to those memories. They feel like it's happening again right now.
She said, It separates them, It puts them away from

(28:10):
that and this isn't the past. It isn't happening right now.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
That's fascinating.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yes, now would you reckon So that's when the integrated
component is. At that point. Let's say they've gotten to
that stage where now they say this is in the past.
You continue doing other forms of therapy as well.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
Well. Of course, let me say that we want to
process the past memory. Then we want to process the
present triggers. Now, for example, this veteran I was talking about,
he comes back, he's got PTSD go show restaurants. Since
at the back in a corner, so he could scan
the room. Going the Walmart, the shop was like a mission.

(28:51):
Here's the time of day I'm going to go, Here's
where I'm gonna park, Here's how I'm going to enter,
I'll get my stuff, and here's how I'm going to exit.
You know, the planning a mission. So we want to
process not just the past. Certainly processing the past trauma
took away a lot of the fear, but also these
present triggers two and then we want to lay down.

(29:15):
We call it a future template, a pattern for adaptive behavior.
So now let's imagine being able to go to Walmart
knowing that it's over and that yes, you can be alert,
but you can be relaxed knowing you're not in danger. Now,
so we do past, present, future, So EMDR is you know,

(29:38):
it's eight phases and it's these three prongs past, present
and future. And then yes, am there is an integrative psychotherapy.
So when it comes to single episode trauma, at least
for me, em DR therapy would be the treatment of choice.

(29:59):
You know, well research them. Depending on the study of
seventy seven to one percent of people no longer will
meet criteria for PTSD after the equivalent of three to
six sessions. All right, but now you have multiple traumatization,

(30:20):
we have to increase the dosage. And then when we
have complex trauma like we were talking about, we have
to do stabilization, want to teach calming, and as you said,
we have to work with the different fragments or parts
of the personality and get cooperation, collaboration among the parts
with adult leadership. So there's other frameworks that would inform

(30:42):
us how to do that. For example, the theory of
structural dissociation of the personality in guide us there. Now
we can include EMDR methodology in resource work and enhancing
that have experiences building up an integrative capacity, doing safe

(31:05):
place exercises, and even enhancing the feeling of cooperation among
the parts, helping the parts, you know, share the information
with each other. So there's a number of different ways

(31:25):
e M d R methodology and elements can be utilized
within the framework. And then comes a time for memory
memory work and we you know, we have some adaptations
that we would do for special populations. But we do
have a standard protocol that we use now that the

(31:47):
person can be present and we've we've we've done our assessment.
I'm not going in blind, and then we can go
and reprocess the memory. And then after that, of course,
the you know, the person is now is freed up
to engage in life and new ways, engage in relationships

(32:12):
in new ways. But of course that we do stabilization,
we'll do memory work. A lot of emotions may come up.
We do more stabilization, more memory work. Then they're able
to engage in life in a new way. But that
brings up new memories, so we do more memory work.
So you know, these these different phases of therapy we

(32:35):
you know, go back and forth. So this is why
we can also say that EMDR therapy is an integrative
approach where we will combine whatever therapeutic methodologies are needed
for the specific population.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
So I do a lot.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
Of work with grief, and I'm informed by a number
of different theoretical frameworks about grief and mourning that helps
guide me, Oh guide my E M d R therapy.
What how do I do an assessment? Understand the clinical phenomena,
where is the person in the morning process. So e

(33:18):
M d R is an integrative psycho therapeutic approach.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
Fascinating start. They did a great job outlining that whole
process and that was wonderful. Again, folks, is doctor Roger M.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Solomon.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
You can find them at Roger M. Solomon dot com
or E M d R dot com. Provides a lot
of good training there. I think that's one of my
last few questions here before we're ready to wrap up.
You mentioned earlier you can do taping, you can do
the eye movement with the finger. What is the what's
the difference? Why do we switch from one to the other?
Do we use both?

Speaker 2 (33:51):
Well, what research has shown is that the eye movement
is more is most effective for most people, but not everybody.
And again there is research on the therapeutic effects just
of the kind of eye movement that we use. It's
you can imagine the skepticism that eum DARE was met

(34:12):
with when it first came out. I was hurtly skeptical, okay,
and then of course researchers are going, yeah, right, fingers
moving well. So that's been research and the number of
very good, meticulous studies, many of them done in the
Netherlands really looking at the impact. And there's even been

(34:35):
studies on rats that have been traumatized and the scientists
found a way to get the rats that were traumatized
to get their eyes moving, and of course they're able
to go into the brain afterwards and see what change
and shifted. But the eye movements did reduce, you know,
the trauma of the rats, and they were able to

(34:57):
you know, pinpoint the neurological mechananisms that were involved in
places in the brain and and you know brain stem
that that were impacted. So of rats are not human beings,
but it does show that there is some kind of
a physiological connection that we don't quite know about yet. Now,

(35:18):
as I said before, there's also the bilateral stimulation interferes
with working memory. Also an orienting response. You think of
the memory do I movement or even the tapping or
sound that produces an orienting reflex, which may have something

(35:38):
to do with reducing avoidance, so that adaptive information can
start to link in. So there's there's a number of
these mechanisms that that are involved here.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
Yeah, absolutely, but.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
Online we want to be especially caught too. Again, and
because we're online, it's it's it's remote. E m DR
can be very powerful and it's very important that a
person strained. It looks simple, but it's not. It's very complex,
very complex, and we only teach therapists or advanced students.

(36:22):
There's a lot of things to consider and it's very
very powerful. So online we want to be very sure
about the stabilization and have methods. Be sure the person
has methods to you know, to calm and you know
the eye movement can be jagged online but too much,
to my surprise, you know too online. I your therapy

(36:46):
has been effective and even doing that happening. And somebody
would have told me March fifteenth of last year that me,
Roger Solomon, program Director EMDR Institute, would be doing online
em d R with Tafts. I would have said, okay,

(37:07):
those are fighting words. Okay, but we adapt and some
of my best sessions have been online using a number
of these different methodologies. Now, I also want to say
something very important. The therapeutic relationship is crucial. It's crucial.
There are still therapy is still therapy, and when we're

(37:31):
going in, especially on complex trauma, there's got to be
the trust that that's there. And as John Watkins, the
father of ego state therapy, used to say, is that
the the problem is big and the client is small.
But when the therapist ego joins with the client's ego,

(37:51):
then the client is big and the problem is small.
Or there's the combined window of tolerance. The therapist stays
with the client, and if the client goes to hell,
the therapist goes to hell with them and through the
other side. So it's not mechanical at all. It really
is therapy and there is that joining process, and that's

(38:13):
so important online. In fact, I was so surprised how
the therapeutic relationship very much can be there online.

Speaker 3 (38:25):
Fascinating, I guess, especially after last year, after March fifteenth,
there's a lot of people over a month after month
and are really hungry for therapy then to get a
better understanding of the world.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
So I can definitely see that fascinating. Fascinating. Indeed, are
you going to keep doing work online or you're taking
it back to the institute once things open up.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
Well, we'll see what we We'll probably have both. Yeah,
we'll probably have both. The The certainly the online training
we're finding is work, but of course people miss the
interaction and there is a difference between practicing and learning
a method online versus working it live. But it's been

(39:10):
surprising to me how well it has the workshops and
learning AMDR can be taught online and given to those clients.
It's it's been surprising how how effective it has been.
But I think everybody and you know me too, I

(39:30):
missed the interaction that goes on and of you know,
and participating and engaging people live. So certainly our trainings
online are you know that I do, and I do
a lot of training in many, many different countries, so
you know, this morning I was doing training in Finland,

(39:53):
so wow, yeah, we started one thirty to seven hour difference,
all right, So I'm one thirty in the morning where
I am animate thirty where they are and because I
can't travel there, you know right now, hopefully that had change.
But yes, we can do it online, but I certainly
can't wait til the other day, and we're scheduled in September,

(40:16):
you know, to go back to Finland, so I hope
that can happen.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
I hope so too. Fascinating stuff, and you made a
great point to your doctor Solomon. It may seem easy
to send people out there, but please don't do it
on your own. Make sure you're trained properly and have
the right certifications. As not a joke. You're messing with people.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
Absolutely, this is this is crucial, all right, not to
just read a book and do it. There's much more
to it. And also EMBR therapy is successful, and because
it is successful, there's a lot of people who have
different names and say I'll teach you this kind of
eye movement or that. So it's very important that there

(40:57):
it is that they're training. Know that the either the
trainer is indeed certified by the e M d R
International Association. Okay, now, uh, I teach the EMDR institute.
This was Francine Shapiro's institute that created a pioneer and

(41:20):
she passed a couple of years ago, but we know
the training into her training institute is still going on.
But it is important to have an accredited trainer. And
there is an e M d R International Association that's
its standards for for the training. Who can who can

(41:40):
do the training? Who are the people who can participate
in the training. So there are standards and it's very
important that there is this, they go to an accredited training.

Speaker 1 (41:54):
Absolutely wonderful stuff. Again, Roger M. Solomon dot com or E. M.
D R dot com you want to learn more about.
Thank you so much, doctor Salmon for being here all right.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
Was a pleasure, and thank you very much for having me.
And thank you very much for what you do for
the interviews and all the information that you're able to disseminate.

Speaker 1 (42:16):
Thank you so much. Thank you everyone for joining us.
Make sure to share and subscribe. I hit that I like,
but we truly appreciate it.