OBJECT RELATIONS

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Psychological Theories Podcast. In this podcast, we
take a journey into the human mind with one psychological
theory at a time.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
So let's begin.

Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hey is doctor Jill Savage Sharf, formerly the co director
of the International Psychotherapy Institute, now on the board EMERITIS.
She's also a clinical professor of psychiatry at Georgetown University.
Let's welcome to the circle, doctor Sharff. Welcome, doctor Sharf.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
Well, thank you.

Speaker 4 (00:29):
How wonderful. How are you doing?

Speaker 3 (00:32):
Yo? Fine? Thank you.

Speaker 1 (00:33):
So this is a really fascinating topic. Is object relations
is something unless you're in the schools of psychology, you
haven't really heard of it. But I found this theory
to be quite fascinating. And can you give us a
little idea of what's going on? Well, by the way,
everybody she did write. She's the co author of the
book called The Primer of Object Relations of fabulous book.
So can you give us a little idea what object

(00:54):
relations is?

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Now? Oblations comes out of the psychic tradition, but it
takes it further than the kind of instinct theory that
Freud described to us. It's a way of thinking about
human personality and relationships that depends on the idea that

(01:18):
an infant is born with many capacities for relating, and
that the primary motivation is to relate. The infant is
born into at least a mother infant relationship, usually into
a family or series of relationships, and in the course

(01:39):
of the early anxieties of the first few months of life,
where the infant is totally dependent on others for nurturance,
for protection, security, and for love that gives meaning to
that infant's existence, the infant negotiates a series of difficulties
in make connection with those various relationships, and in the

(02:03):
course of negotiating these difficulties that the infant has gratifying
and unsatisfying experiences that the infant takes into itself.

Speaker 4 (02:15):
So we're starting really young, oh, very young.

Speaker 3 (02:18):
Yeah, very young, as he starting from actually before birth,
if you want to be precise.

Speaker 4 (02:25):
And the object is what is that really turned as.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
That's a horrible term it you know, it was introduced
by Fairbairn, who was the progenitor of ujulation theory in
respect to Freud. He wanted to retain Freud's use of
the term objects as that that that thing that the
libido falls upon, a very mechanistic way of putting it

(02:53):
refers to the first instance, to the person who is
providing the love and care to the invant on the
internal object is that version of early experience with the
person that is taken in to build the parts of
the personality.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
Oh so when they look at that person, the caregiver,
whoever it may be, who's giving the love, they start
developing their own personality and their own perception of the
world through them.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yes, okay, they build a few of themselves based on
how they have perceived that other person, the type of
care that they've been given.

Speaker 4 (03:35):
Interesting. Now does it I don't know how familiar you
are with this, but does it? How does it work?
In parts?

Speaker 1 (03:40):
And what I mean by that is you have the mother,
let's say, let's say a traditional family from thirty years ago.
The mother spends most of the day with the child.
The father comes into the picture later in the afternoon
or evening.

Speaker 4 (03:51):
What happens.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
There are there two parts of that personality. And now
that they have to kind of amalgamates, do they have
to choose the green would.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
At least at least two parts.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
Well, that's the whole. That's what's so great about all
replations theory. It says that the infant has many, many
experiences at different levels of development, and it lays down
many memory traces of those experiences at first, sorting them
into simple categories of this felt good or this felt bad?

(04:23):
And if it felt good, how did it feel good?
And if it felt bad, did it feel bad? Does
it made me feel angry and rejected? Or did it
feel bad because I felt over excited and stimulated by it?
Whichever it was, there's a part of the self being
built up corresponding to those experiences, and if they did

(04:47):
it feel good, they get repressed into the unconscious where
they're constantly attempting to return. So it gives a kind
of cybernetic view of the personality that works very well
when we're trying to think in terms of not just
of individuals, but couples and families, because the individuals relate

(05:08):
to each other in ways that draw force these repressed
aspects of the person because they're always seeking to be
revealed and understood and reintegrated into the central self.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
So, in other words, it does it can shade their
perception of their future relationships, It can distort them in
a positive or Navita.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
Yeah, you totally got it.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yes, it happens every so often, doctor sheriff.

Speaker 4 (05:37):
This time it happened. All right.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
Well I'm glad because sometimes I'm talking about.

Speaker 3 (05:43):
This in a brief way. Yes, it begins to sound
like gubbledegook. It takes so long to really explain it,
very very slowly.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
Well, that's the kind of funny thing I was thinking about,
because boy, there's a lot of stuff in there, and
you obviously you treat patient, and I'm assuming correct, you're
still doing therapy.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
Yes, indeed, I'm still still doing it. No plans to retire.

Speaker 4 (06:07):
So that's good news.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
That seems like a complicated venture because for instance, for me,
if I see somebody or I'm in a relationship with somebody,
I have a lot of stuff, you know, that's repressed
more than likely from whatever happened, and that's going to
manifest and change my perception of the other person. How
do you access all that stuff or do you even
access it as a therapist?

Speaker 3 (06:31):
As a therapist, you mean, yes, you do, because it's
all revealed in patterns of behavior and repeating patterns of
behavior that betray the perceptions that underlie the responses. So
as a therapist. People you know, people are talking about

(06:51):
the same things over and again, or they have done
the same things over and again. They've complained about their
partner in the same way. It's because they've learned to
have a view of themselves in relation to the other
that they keep repeating. And actually they sometimes choose partners
who will fit these preconceptions, and that's rather unfortunate because

(07:16):
it tends to cement them in one way of relating
and there they recreate a very stuck relationship. Hopefully person
will choose a partner where they disconfirm faulty perceptions by
being enough unlike the original people that were there in

(07:40):
the early years of life, that they allow for a
room for change and growth. The old perceptions come to light,
they can be modified, and then a different version of
experience can be taken and the person grows and evolves.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
This has triggered a couple of different thoughts in my head.
I'll bombarde you with one first here. So if somebody
has something, let's see the child whoever old, six months,
four months, three months, they have a perception of their parents.
It's not an accurate perception. Do they fill in or

(08:16):
create their own reality if the perception if the reality
is negative, for instance, with the parents abusive, do they
fill in something positive in there instead, or do they
fill it in with a negative as well?

Speaker 4 (08:28):
Both occur, Both occur.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
Okay, children are so anxious to maintain their parents in
a positive light because of course they depend on them
because they are their reality. That unfortunately, they're more inpling
to take in a view of themselves as bad as
a reason to explain why that the parents have treated

(08:52):
them badly. They prefer to think their parents are good,
but they've been pushed into being bad because of the
bad nature of the child. They'll do anything to preserve
a view of the parents is good.

Speaker 4 (09:06):
It kind of rings with something.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
I had a patient years ago when I was working
with clients, and I remember one and you can tell
me from way off base here or not, but I
remember the child was about it nine or ten years old,
maybe eleven, I think, and she had been abused by
her father sexually, but she would not would not ever
talk negatively about him. She didn't like the experience, but

(09:29):
she just wouldn't say anything bad and she didn't think
it was wrong.

Speaker 4 (09:33):
What's going on there? Do you think in your mind.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
Well, in your opinion, was that one of these cover
ups kind of thing that they do as a child
to keep that image going.

Speaker 3 (09:42):
Yes, it is. And also, don't forget, although the sexual
abuse is wrong, it may have been the only positive
contact she had. That's to say, the man really wanted
to be with her so in a way that the
rest of us would say was very, very damaging.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
Interesting, So that could have been the only positive she
had in that relationship.

Speaker 4 (10:03):
That's true. I didn't think about that.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
See, the man, instead of bending his own wishes and
desires to the needs of the child for healthy attachment,
is using the child to satisfy its own interests and
desires of sexual nature. And it's a terrible distortion of
the parenting process.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
Most certainly, how does object relations deal with UH in
disorders such as schizophrenia paranoia?

Speaker 4 (10:34):
How does it?

Speaker 1 (10:35):
Does it have any kind of conceptualization in that area?

Speaker 3 (10:39):
Well, we do see the schizophrenic state as one in
which the mind has become completely fragmented into many different parts.
The integrative process is lost. So you see the kind
of formation of personality I've been talking about, but in
its most dream and fragmented state, now does object relations

(11:04):
have a lot to offer? Well, we have a way
of speaking to those who are suffering from psychosis in
terms of the various parts that they're expressing, but we
still need to rely on modern antipsychotic medications.

Speaker 4 (11:23):
For those individuals to.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
Help them pull the mind together as far as possible.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yeah, and let me ask you this question regards to
couple's therapy.

Speaker 4 (11:32):
I'm not sure if you do that as well.

Speaker 3 (11:35):
Oh, definitely expect. That's really what I'm known for a
couple of family therapy, really much book that I wrote
with my husband back in nineteen eighty seven, in nineteen
ninety one.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah, and how does that work in regards to object
relations theory? In other words, is it true we always
used to hear how he treats his mother is how
he's going to treat you, or you pick somebody like
your father or mother. Did you see that commonality or
that or I guess euphemism or something the phraseology. You
see that in object relations at all?

Speaker 3 (12:06):
Yeah? Yeah, yees, you know you can see it. It's
a little bit of a cartoon to put it quite
like that, because all of us normally selectively identified with
different parts of each parent it's not like we're all
identified with the mother. We choose parts. In fact, if

(12:30):
we do identify with just one parent, it's that's a
very unhealthy situation. And yes, it will be expressed in
the couple relationships.

Speaker 4 (12:42):
Fascinating.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
Are we looking to try to find somebody that exhibits
the same positive attributes.

Speaker 4 (12:47):
That our parents do?

Speaker 1 (12:51):
Ah?

Speaker 4 (12:52):
If I phrase that properly, No, No, of.

Speaker 3 (12:55):
Course, I'm kind of think they when they fall in love,
they connect on what they think are conscious choices. If
I want a man like my father in this respect
or that respect, or a man might say they want
to part a partner like my mother, her best qualities

(13:17):
are what I'm looking for. But in fact the match
is determined by the levels of unconscious fit. Those parts
of the self that I spoke about earlier that have
been difficult to come to terms with and get repressed
into unconscious Those are the very ones that silently seek
out a match in the loved one, and they cause

(13:43):
tremendous trouble after the honeymoon is over, because now there's commitments.
Now they can be expressed as they've been longing to
do for so long, and they see the light of
day and in a healthy marriage they can be look
chat and detoxified and inttegrated into the relationship. But in

(14:04):
many marriages that we see these these now expressed parts
of the self really come aproperly. They cause difficulty, They're
not acceptable now that the first flush of romance is over,
and they they need to be worked on.

Speaker 4 (14:24):
I think my wife would agree with you.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
So another question on this, how would you do if
we could do a really brief version. What are you
looking at when you said, when you have a couple,
let say, in front of you or an individual maybe
struggling from anxiety, what are a couple of the first
two questions or things you're looking for? Are you trying
to go back all the way to childhood?

Speaker 4 (14:44):
Obviously you can't go back to three months?

Speaker 2 (14:47):
So what do you do you start with now?

Speaker 3 (14:51):
Just you tell us about yourself, tell us why you're here,
what are you looking for help for? And your work
king to get a picture of these repeating patterns of interactions,
you're looking at why the couple needs them to be
that way. They serve a defensive function. In other words,

(15:12):
then you look for the anxiety behind that defensive function.
What are they really afraid of and they're of course
many shared ears. The most fundamental one is that the
couple will break up fall apart.

Speaker 1 (15:29):
Is are they afraid of breaking up or are they
afraid of being alone or rejected?

Speaker 3 (15:35):
Well, the couple is afraid of breaking up. Instruction of
the couple. Yeah, the individuals may be so afraid of
being alone that they stick together even when they shouldn't. Yes,
that can happen, of course.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
Okay, But we want to help them express what they
are looking for.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
What kind of attachment needs do they want mes in
the marriage? What are their sexual desires? What is their
life's philosophy? How can they work together to develop what
we call a couple states of mind so that the
couple relationship becomes greater in importance than either of the
individuals that comprise it.

Speaker 4 (16:16):
Enough, good, Good.

Speaker 3 (16:19):
We're looking to help them relate to the marriage as
something greater than themselves, something they need to nurture, something
that they plan for, that they regard as a vehicle
that will contain their hopes and fears as they move
through the life cycle.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
And it sounds like there's a slight implication of they
may not even be aware of these things, for some
of them.

Speaker 3 (16:47):
No, the mostly they're not aware of these things. Many
people don't realize how important it is to really think
about and plan for their relationship. Just going on trying
to do their work and have some fun to get by,
and they don't stop to do the work that it

(17:09):
takes to make a marriage or a couple relationship work.

Speaker 4 (17:13):
That sounds interesting. That's a good point. It's an excellent point.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
We have just one or two more questions, and I
know we'll let you go. I know you're extremely busy.
We truly appreciate your being here. Once again, Doctor Jill Sharf,
author of the Primer of Objective Relations object relations.

Speaker 4 (17:27):
One question is how.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
Does it work in regards to the parents with their children.
Can they be reversed like that? Do you look at
it through that lens?

Speaker 3 (17:35):
Or? Certainly when we work with parents, the work in
family therapy a chance for everyone to get together and
talk about what's been bothering them. Usually the family presents
with the problem and a child, as child is in
your atic. This child's not going to school, this child's

(17:58):
always fighting or causing trouble. But the child is just
the symptom bearer for a family white problem. Usually we
find the couple has failed to integrate these problematic areas
up there functioning and they get projected into a child.

(18:21):
Then they struggle with it in relation to the child
instead of in relation to each other within the couple.

Speaker 4 (18:28):
That's a good point.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
Well, speaking for other parents, I'm a parent of two children.
What advice would you give a parent in regards to
making sure you provide a good place for your child,
a good object relation or a caregiver relationship.

Speaker 4 (18:43):
Is focusing work on your marriage.

Speaker 3 (18:46):
That's the first thing to do. Make that a safe
place and it will be safe for the child.

Speaker 4 (18:54):
Excellent advice. Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (18:56):
To get the child listen, listen, listen.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
Listen, listen to the child. Is it important to play
with them as well?

Speaker 3 (19:05):
Play? Yes, of course it is.

Speaker 1 (19:07):
Play is fantastic, perfect doctor Sharp.

Speaker 4 (19:12):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (19:13):
What insight we got today and really getting an idea
what object relation is all about?

Speaker 4 (19:17):
A very complex subject and you made it sound so simple.
I like that. Thank you so much for being on the.

Speaker 3 (19:21):
Circle, and thank you so much for inviting me.

Speaker 4 (19:25):
So where can we get more information about you? What
are you up to?

Speaker 1 (19:28):
I know I just mentioned the author is the book
of the primer of object relations But what else can
we go?

Speaker 3 (19:32):
All right? You can look at the website for the
International Psychotherapy Institute and you'll see all the courses that
we am colleagues on the faculty there offer in individual therapy, psychoanalysis,
upon family therapy. We have an interesting teaching model that

(19:55):
uses groups to allow for a personal experience to occur
as people struggle with these rather difficult concepts, and that
way you can see the concept actually enacted in the
relationships that develop in the group. So that really helps
internalize these rather complex concepts. If any of your listeners

(20:21):
are abroad, they might be interested in part of that
site which offers free psychotherapy books, getting five hundred thousand downloads,
mostly from India, Asia, Turkey, and that's that's our latest endeavor.

(20:41):
We're rather proud of trying to bring these these understandings
to people who can't afford books or don't have access
to books.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, we definitely do have some listeners over in India.
I know that for sure looking at the demographics. Thanks again,
doctor Sharf, that was awesome. We truly appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (20:59):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
Thank you everyone for joining us. Remember it's simple wherever
our model is simple, wherever there's psychology involved even in
object relations, especially in object relations, we're going to be there.