Rick Devens' E-Sports for Beginners | The Business of Esports

Get an inside look at the business of Esports.  What challenges are presenting themselves?  Is Esports destined to follow the path of traditional sports?  Rick and Phil Aram break it down.

Episode Transcript

(00:30):
Aloha and hello. I'm Rick Devinsand you're listening to Esports for Beginners.
This is episode seven here on therob has a Podcast network, and we
have learned a lot about esports sofar, and I'm very excited about today.
Today we're gonna dig into the businessof e sports. My guest today

(00:52):
is the Chief Gaming Officer at EvilGeniuses, Phil Aaron with us. Thanks
for joining us, Phil, Hey, thanks for having me. Rick really
appreciate it. I'm excited to haveyou on talk a little Evil Geniuses and
find out exactly what a CGO does. But let's start off with just what's
going on with you right now?What's going on with Evil Geniuses right now?

(01:15):
Yeah, So I'm I am theCGO Chief Gaming Officer. It's one
of many titles, you know.It could be President of Esports Operations,
could be general manager, it couldbe a lot of things, but it's
it's what my title is for EG. Right now, we're in the same
world as everybody else during COVID.We've got teams in big games across esports,
and we're all sheltered at home justdoing our best to compete in the

(01:38):
online world that exists right now.Getting out there and playing as many tournaments
as we can and helping work inour different ecosystems to help them figure out
how to run events right now andhow to keep things competitive so fans have
something to watch. That's really interesting, because that's definitely something going on in
the world of traditional sports right now, is all the different leagues coming up

(01:59):
with I am after playing to tryto get something going. Are you all
operating on the same online tournaments thatwe're already there, or are new tournaments
being made? How is the esportsin general responding to not being able to
get together in person? Yeah,so every game is a little bit different.
That's one of the thrills of myjob is working across all of our

(02:21):
different games. Every game is likeits own sport. So you know,
NBA's responding differently than MLB, respondingdifferently than the NFL, and are on
different schedules and cadences, so youknow, this time of the year is
more important for some games than itis for others. Right, So the
same sort of like the NFL hasn'treally seen a huge impact outside of the
draft yet, whereas the NBA andMLB are just outright not able to run
their seasons, so we're in thesame boat, and so every game is

(02:44):
a little bit different as we workwith them. The biggest the biggest blockers
are when they're huge tent pole events, these million dollars tournaments, the championships
and things that are coming up thatare getting suspended, and most of your
seasons are set up to kind ofbuild to those events no matter what it
is, right, and there's mostof the esports outside of League of Legends,
where it's more sports franchise style,run some sort of qualification system that's

(03:07):
more like golf or NASCAR with kindof a points accumulation towards some sort of
cup final event, and that's reallyhard to do in a system like this
where the event that you are nowtrying to get points for is now who
knows where it's out in the calendar. And on top of it, you're
also dealing with you're dealing with thelike figuring out how do you recalibrate the

(03:30):
scoring. You got to add moreevents, you got to add events of
different values because it's online, soit's a lot of you know, figuring
out what makes sense, what's equitablefor everyone, and what keeps fans compelled
as well. You mentioned that theseevents are being suspended. Are any of
them being moved online or is itjust too much of a difference to move
these online that you need those thelive audience, You need folks right there

(03:53):
so there's no lag. What arethe arguments being made and have any of
them been moved online? Yep,so a lot of things have been moved
online. Pretty much all of ourmajor esports are now working in some sort
of online capacity, and a lotof them are using the same names of
their events or the same same monikersof what would have been a previously an
event in an actual physical location,but continuing it in an online fashion.

(04:16):
We've seen some format changes. Therewere big Team Encounter Strike, and that's
a game that's very global, butespecially it's very split between NA and EU,
and prior to COVID, all theevents were cross regions, so we
had European and North American teams travelingto play together, and so with COVID
they had to figure out a wayto divide all the events to be simultaneous
but being played in two different regions. Since a player living in North America

(04:39):
and playing North America cannot compete againsta European player, the distance is too
much of a inhibitor there. That'sinteresting the issues that come up as you
try to move online. What aresome of the other issues. What's the
feedback from players been. Obviously theymust understand the extreme situation we're in,
But what's the feedback you get fromyour your guys definitely varies. So there's

(05:04):
the one extreme of players who weask how they're doing. You know,
we're doing our due diligence checking intrying to be good stewards of them in
their lives, asking you, howare you doing okay? Like what happened
you? Has anything changed? Likethat's you know, I don't go outside,
So they're they're just right in theirzone. I think that's you know,
some segment of the esports world islike that. But on the other

(05:27):
side, you think you have alot of folks who have really progressed as
the industry has grown and people havematured. You know a lot of folks
who like they go to gym fivetimes a week, and they have a
social life, and they're used totraveling for work because of the event schedule,
and now they're really kind of strugglingwith you know, they're with the
situation as much as anyone, andeverybody across the board on a competitive standpoint,
is frustrated by the need to playonline. You know, Land is

(05:50):
considered, rightfully that true test ofskill and competition because it's where you can
play where everyone's on an equal footing. If you're playing online, someone is
always going to be starting, youknow, noe instead of the ball.
Instead of the ball getting tossed upat mid court at the start of the
game, someone's getting the ball tossedup in your key already, right Like,
that's the kind of situation you're dealingwith where it feels unfair for a

(06:11):
lot of players, and they haveto make the best of it, knowing
that their careers rely on into fans, you know, being engaged in watching,
and that we have to keep findingways to do that, even if
it's in a compromise. But they'rethey're doing well overall. You know,
they do the best with what theycan. They're a little bit like early
Survivor. You know, they makemy first Survivor offense in here. It's
like Africa or Australian outback where theyreally starved the hell out of the contestants

(06:32):
and like nobody could perform in challenges. You know, that's what players feel
like a little bit during court.During this time, they're like a little
bit starved with the ping. Butyou know, if you get them from
rice and beans back on land ina few months and they'll be rearing to
go again. I appreciate you talkingthe language of myself and many of my
listeners with the survivor metaphor, andall survivor fans love a good metaphor.

(06:54):
Absolutely, thank survivor fan. I'mhere with as many esports survivor metaphors as
you can take outstanding outstanding. Well, are there other issues that come up?
Like obviously players are going to talkabout lands as you mentioned, what
about things like you know, thereare officials present and everything kind of gets
checked at a tournament. Our playersworry that more cheating is going to take

(07:16):
place because everything's online. Yeah,I would say that more cheating is something
that I think there's more of apublic concern than a private concern, at
least from my expectation, players,at least the folks we've dealt with,
by and large, are there isa high ethical nature to it, and

(07:36):
there's good money in terms of theincentives for a player to be successful and
perform and do so within the confinesof the rules of the game, but
it's always a risk. They takeadditional precautions, things like delaying the broadcast
so that it's impossible for a playerto have a second screen, putting the
broadcast up, giving them some sortof advantage by just seeing the things they
can't normally see in game. Andin some cases players are asked to record

(08:00):
themselves playing or record their like recordtheir screening setups so that they can so
that it can be monitored by anadmin. Still, so those things still
occur, it's definitely less so,and it's again it's one of those compromises.
But you know, I think mostyou know there's gonna be someone on
the fringe in any case, inany sport who's gonna attempt to circumvent the
rules, and this is a timethat certainly increases the exposure for that.

(08:20):
But we also know this is atemporary situation. Anyone who attempted to do
that to gain a know, amodest advantage in in the near term would
still see themselves regress back to themean of their skill. When we get
back to a world where you can'tpull off the things you can do online.
What type of things are you lookingat right now? What's next coming

(08:41):
up on the Evil Genius's schedule?What games are you guys playing at the
moment. Yeah, so we havefive ish divisions, kind of always changing
the different games that we're in.But our big core three games are League
of Legends, CSGO, and DODA, those where we kind of consider to
be the big three esports. Thereare the three games that get the most
sports of viewership in the world,and we have our teams constantly competing in

(09:03):
those. The biggest of the threeis League of Legends, where we finished
second in the regular season and thirdin the playoffs this year and in this
spring, and that was done duringCOVID to from online place that was a
compromise league. They're on break rightnow. But our big upcoming event is
that team is going to get backto competing in the summer split, which
is the one that qualifies you forWorlds, which is the World Championships,

(09:24):
of course, and you know,we hope that'll happen, but who knows
what twists and turns will lie forus in a fall in winter. That's
going to start up again though ina month, so we're really building up
for that right now. There's abit of a player transfer window where in
talks with their teams to see ifanybody's going to make any trades or moves
or pickups ourselves included of course,and then you know, getting ready with
the team training as best as theycan from home before the season starts.

(09:48):
There. When you talk about thetrades and everything that could happen right now,
has the market been busier or slower? Have you? Have you noticed
any effect that COVID has had onthat. Yeah, COVID's had a huge
effect on the competitive marketplace for esportsteams, and we've seen this across our
games. You know, it's slower, especially in League of Legends because so

(10:11):
much for North America is imported talent. We're a region where similar to football,
like soccer in the US, yousee limits on how many imports you
can have, and those imports slotsare really important, and it's the same
in Legal Legends. So we've onlygot a couple of slots to really move
around with with imports. Every team'salways trying to make improvements in those slots.
In particular, and you can't reallydo that during this time because visas

(10:33):
are all effectively suspended in terms ofnew applications, so the process, you
know, you wouldn't if you signsomebody during this offseason from overseas, you
wouldn't be able to get them hereuntil the start of next season. So
those are the kinds of delays we'redealing with, which really changed the scope
of what we're working with. Kindof have a close ecosystem now just to
the people who are currently in NorthAmerica that we can shuffle around to try
and improve our standing or any otherteam to improve theirs. So that's definitely

(10:58):
an interesting one. We see inother games for US though, other issues
where you know, we have oneteam where we have players across three continents
make up the team, and usuallythey're traveling in together, but right now
in COVID, they're all sheltered athome. So we've got a player in
the Philippines, a player in Russia, a player in Denmark, and two
players on the East coast to theUS, and we have to try and
figure out how to cobble together enoughof them to make something that looks like

(11:18):
our team while we go out andplay during this online time. Are there
exceptions being made by the leagues iffolks can't get teams together, Like,
are there being like if you needto bring someone in from the outside,
are they bending the rules to allowyou to do that in ways that they
haven't. Yeah, there's definitely understandingin every game about what the circumstances are

(11:41):
for individual teams. And when wereally started to head into the COVID environment
and people going into shelter at homesituations, you know a lot of the
operators talked with teams about, Hey, where your team's at, what makes
sense for you, what's like ethicalBecause in some cases you might have a
team of players who in csgo.For instance, one of our contemporaries is
they're set up their team in NorthAmerica, but those players are Australian by

(12:05):
birth, and that is the regionthey're supposed to qualify for the World Championship
from. It's sort of regionalized andhow those things work, So they're supposed
to go back to Australia to competein that qualifier, but because of COVID,
they're set up here, and wasn'tfelt like it was ethical for those
people to be asked to either onemiss the major or not or to travel
during this time. So there wasexceptions made that allowed them to compete here

(12:28):
and participate through North America, andthen they reseeded the regions in which regions
got how many slots because of wheretalent happened to be when shelter in Place
occurred. It's really interesting. I'mjust I'm imagining both the player who was
overseas and was looking forward to abig opportunity and all of a sudden it
just isn't there because he can't travelor she can't travel. And I'm also

(12:52):
thinking of the other player who's beenstruggling and knew that they were about to
lose their spot, and then COVIDhappens and all of a sudden they get
It's almost like edge of extinction.They're back from the dead, O the
chance to prove themselves, and everybodyelse in the game is mad at them.
Yeah, right now we're stuck withthis guy's bill. Yeah, yeah,

(13:13):
it sounds about right. I thinkwe, you know, are our
teams have been evan well in thiscase, but I think other folks certainly
certainly feel that strain and pressure.Um, it's you know, it's a
weird time for sure. A lotof you've really come to appreciate the things
that you had before COVID, whenyou could, you know, reach out
to somebody halfway across the world andsay, hey, you want to play
on our team and they could doit in a few weeks time. And

(13:33):
now it's like that's a six monthprocess. It feel like we're back in
the like the wild West, andwe're relying on um, you know,
someone horse and bugging our letters toeach other. What is your your day
like now? How much interaction doyou have? Who do you interact with?
Are you talking with the players,are you talking with the coaches?

(13:54):
How is everyone kind of working tokind of make sure everyone's still focused on
the same things. Yeah, Somy role is kind of I'm the manager
of the managers, or the generalmanager of the managers. So under each
of our divisions, we have someonewho is running each of the big games,
who's kind of like the little minigeneral manager of that team, who
does day to day like in withthe practices, making sure the team's running

(14:18):
smoothly. I'm talking to those folksevery week as well as coordinating along the
lines with the rest of our companyand marketing and sales and other folks who
are out continued continuing to do theirwork, and especially helping to keep them
understanding the things that are shifting.You know, it's hard for them to
do their jobs. They're supposed tohave a calendar of all the events that
they're plugging our partners into, orthat they're producing content around, or that

(14:39):
they're tweeting about or whatever else.And it's pretty hard for them to do
their jobs when every Tuesday, I'msaying, Okay, well this event doesn't
exist anymore, scratch that off,and now there's two new events, and
they go like this, and youknow, it's kind of a constant coordination
job right now, really like airtraffic controlling between all the parts. And
then you know, when we getinto times where it's a uster change or

(15:00):
anything like that where it seems likewe need to be making making alterations in
teams, that's when I really startto dive in and deep dive and help
be a check with any of ourteams around why we're doing changes, what's
going on, and um and bringingmy experience to that to that point,
would you be on the road alot if if you weren't like the rest

(15:22):
of us under quarantine. Yes,I normally would be. I shout out
to Delta, my preferred airline.I was Diamond status for the last four
years. I think they're keep willbe happy to hear that. Yeah,
great airline, hit up evil geniuses. We're always looking for our air partners
still, but they they I've beendiamond there for four years, which is

(15:45):
one hundred twenty five thousand miles traveledin the air. It's a lot.
It's you know, I averaged moredays on the road than I did at
home for many years. Now inmy role as chief Gaming Officer, I
can pick my spots a little bitmore, but I was still on track
to probably spend one hundred fifty dayson the road this year going to events
seeing our teams. There's really youknow, as the head of the gaming

(16:06):
side, it's really important for meto be at not only the big events
to be able to talk to therest of the folks within the industry,
but be there to support our teamsand make sure that they understand that we
care about them, that they're appreciated, and so it's always you know,
I'm a resource in that way.Sometimes too. You know, not being
in an event can if I misssomething, it can be as you know,
just like the notice of me notbeing there can be meaningful, So

(16:26):
try to be mindful of that.But yeah, it's usually a lot of
travels. I'm getting a little bitmore r and R here at home,
though it's not really relaxing. Yeah, I was gonna say, are you
appreciating the rest on a personal levelor are you going nuts? Yeah?
They're finding new way to plug mein, you know. Now that I'm
not at the offense, I'm nowhosting. You know, we're doing some
watch parties with our ownership group andother people within the within the company.

(16:48):
So I'm hosting that on the weekendsso our teams can watch the matches together
remotely on a big zoom call,you know. So I'm I'm like a
MC in that, trying to explainwhat's going on, helping people who haven't
sports. Who are you know atone of our partner partner companies, you
know, we're under a parent umbrellaon a variety of businesses and a portfolio,
so they'll be joining in with theirkids asking, you know, what's

(17:11):
this, what's what are they doing? I'm just trying to try to help
out and bring a little bring alittle joy to people when they're you know,
down and don't have their normal sports. So that's been a plus free
sports, right, We've gotten alot of new eyeballs, people just hoping
to find something that fills that voidthat they had during sports seasons. Absolutely,
and you read the numbers of juston these games. More and more

(17:32):
people are signing on than ever beforebecause they're stuck at home. More people
are watching esports, and esports isgetting more prime time spots even on television
networks. Are more sponsors coming toyou and trying to figure out what's going
on? Are you getting the attentionof people paying the bills? How's this
affected the business side of things?Yeah, I think it's been a really

(17:56):
interesting time during COVID, especially whenthe initials shutdowns occurred. I think there
is a real shift where you hada lot of marketing departments at companies who
said, like, Okay, wellI just dropped you know, millions of
dollars on March madness. It's nothappening. What am I going to do
to replay those dollars? And esportshas definitely gotten looks in those regards being
a place where there's live on aircontent hitting a young demographic that's really valuable

(18:19):
to marketers. So we've gotten alot of a lot of new interests and
outreach, and I think at thesame time you also see an increase,
like some more interest. We've alsoprobably got more competition because I think there's
a lot of pressure on advertisers wanteither within their businesses as they see revenues
go down to trim budgets so lessopportunity there, or where they look at
contemporaries who are putting out a lotof content that's more goodwill oriented and looking

(18:44):
at you know, should they bedoing that or should they be reallocating their
traditional dollars to just esports instead ofregular sports. So it's it's a bit
of a mixed bag in that sense. I think we've seen a lot of
really exciting opportunities come but at thesame time you see and feel other businesses
who are who are feeling the pinchof the COVID economy as well. What's
it like for you on the businessside of things. I always wonder about

(19:04):
this because you hear so much aboutthe traditional sports leagues. You know,
a lot of it is gait andthen a huge part of it is that
TV contract and you guys, Ithink it was Loco Doko who I was
talking to who says esports has hada hard time really trying to monetize because
they give everything away for free andthen get really creative by like getting people

(19:29):
to tune in for a different ways. So it seems like you guys are
doing things that traditional sports could copy. But are you having a trouble monetizing
in the way traditional sports have?Yeah, I think esports monetization is the
great question, right, There's somany different groups coming in with different theories
around what monetization looks like. Youknow, one of our big one of
our big beliefs is in the traditionalsports model, adapting free sports over time,

(19:52):
not necessarily ticketing gate. Those arethings that you know, we monetize
through digital audience in a different waythat it might be positive but be different.
But there is still that side ofbroadcast rights. You know, you
said that we give it away forfree, while you can also watch you
know, NFL on CBS with anantenna, so it might you know,
in the same way that you've hadto buy a computer, internet connection you
could have watched football for most ofthe season at least in some capacity.

(20:15):
So then they get big broadcast rightsfrom CBS right billions of dollars, And
so we in the leagues that we'rea part of, we're working on improving
the part where all the teams andall the leagues work together and we actually
work to take those broadcast rights andbring them out and sell them collectively,
which is something that the industry reallystruggled with for a long time in the
early years, where everybody just wantedto be out there, just wanted to

(20:37):
get there, and didn't understand theinterconnectivity the way that being you know,
being a united front can really helpus all and reaping the real value for
what we're producing. Because I thinka lot of folks would look and say
that based on the numbers of esports, the viewers, the demographics that were
really undersold in terms of the valuebeing created right now, and they're doing
a better job right now going tomarket and creating those kind of broadcast rights

(21:00):
deal you see Overwatch League, Callof Duty League, which are run by
Activision Blizzard, one of the bigone of the big developers. They've gone
out and done a big deal withGoogle and YouTube that is really impactful,
and League of Legends that we're apart of, and Riot they're also out
right now to market looking to bringtogether the next big broadcast deal for League
of Legends. So you know,there's always they're going on in a rolling

(21:21):
basis right now, but it's becominga much stickier part of the business and
something that we hope can be abig driver revenue. You know, we
hope, we believe that esports isgoing to keep growing, going to keep
being more salient as time goes onand more young people age into this is
a norm in their life. Butit's still still a little nebulous right now.
Well, and you guys are abig business. I mean, a
lot of these owners of traditional sportsfranchises have invested heavily in esports and own

(21:47):
these big teams. What do yousee in the next ten or twenty years.
Are we going to see esports becomelike traditional sports? Are we going
to have a commissioner, Are wegoing to have franchises? Are they gonna
limit you know, is Evil Geniusis going to be one of thirty two
teams? And how are they goingto make that decision? On who's in
and who's out. This is reallyinteresting to me because it seems like you

(22:10):
need that organization to have that bargainingpower. Yep. Absolutely, and I
think the modern ownership groups who investin esports are doing so with that understanding
in mind. They say, hey, we see the success, we see
the viewership, and we know amodel that works for this. There's some
rub there because we're dealing with theglobal industry and regionalizing that industry is I

(22:32):
think it can be tricky at times. You know, it's esports. Most
events are played with teams from aroundthe world on a regular basis, and
getting to that collective model really requiresyou to regionalize to a certain extent and
really focus on North America or Europe. League of Legends has done this more
than anyone so far, where theyhave major functioning leagues across tons of different
regions of the world, each independentlyworking on their own revenue driving while also

(22:55):
still being a part of kind ofa collective that works towards the global product
in some way. And so that'swhat we've seen so far. You know,
we are one of ten teams witha franchise in League of Legends.
In North America. We have talksaround you know, what does expansion look
like? What does you know,what do all these different parts of the
traditional sports ecosystem look like within theframework of a video game in League of

(23:17):
Legends, and there's a lot ofthings that don't cross over. But you
know, when it comes to thingslike broadcast and how do we create this
product that is valuable to people,it has stakes that people care about and
want to watch and tune into,and create something that's really entertaining that then
we can go and hopefully, youknow, translate into sponsors and into broadcasts
like broadcast rights like other sports do. That's the part that I think our
investors look at and understand and getand that we're we're driving really well towards

(23:42):
right now. Is there any sortof divide in esports between um folks who
have been around a long time andnew folks who are coming in with a
lot of money and maybe a lotof you know, political backing. Yeah,
definitely, there's there's definitely the oldguard new guard. You know,
I've been working in esports for tenyears, working at EG for six and

(24:04):
or twelve years. I've been involvedin esports in some way. And you
know there's when I got involved infor a decade ago, it was very
community driven. There were businesses outhere looking to create teams. Evil geniuses
existed back then, and they wereyou know, looking and scraping how to
find dollars. But you know,there's there were a lot of sacrifices made.
My first several jobs in esports hadno dollars involved. I was volunteering.

(24:26):
Right. It was very community driven, which has a real passion and
behind it, and you have peoplewho really want to protect that. That
community's like part of it. ButI think of reality that folks struggle with
is that most of those community effortsare driven by somebody like coordinating it,
who's trying to make a living,who's trying to say, like, I
believe this can be big enough tosupport my life. In the same way
that Rob you know, created likeRob as a podcast, right, Like

(24:48):
that whole network exists because this guy, you know, he put a lot
of time and effort in with nodollars and a belief that he could make
dollars to support his family off it, right, And eventually he did that.
And now there's you know, awhole network of people who like he
helps support and create opportunity for Ithink that's the same thing. I think
that's to me I've evolved in inthis period and understand that like you know,

(25:11):
evil geniuses, employees, you know, forty fifty people like it's a
real like I have a real responsibilityand honor to be doing something that's creating
value for people and creating lives forpeople. And you know, I think
that the sense of what is lostfrom a community standpoint, I don't think
that's ever lost. The communities,you know, those tight knit groups who
want to do things and experience somethingwithout the need for feeling of responsibility to

(25:33):
a sponsor. There's still a placeto do that. You know, read
it. You can go online,you can create community groups. Fan groups
are fan bases are constantly intertwining.But it's you know, it shouldn't stop
people from pursuing, you know,hoping to do the thing that they love
and be able to make a careerout of it too. And I think
that requires a bit of compromise fromeverybody. And this is a transition point
for esports that definitely has those youknow, people feeling out understanding you know,

(25:56):
the what and the why of itall. These are the growing pains
that success springs. I mean,it's good to have these problems, I
guess on the whole. So tellme a little bit more about Evil Geniuses
and you. I want to knowhow each of you began. Which would
you like to start with. Well, I can try and give a shot
at EG and then I'll throw myselfinto the equation when it when it makes

(26:19):
sense, let's do it. So. EG is one of the one of
the oldest esports companies in the worldand certainly in North America. Our founding
is from nineteen ninety seven in Victoria, BC as a as a quake clan
really just five guys or just abunch of guys who wanted to play against
each other and these kind of earlyonline events and one of the first real

(26:41):
competitive games. And it really grewout of there as a very community driven
effort for a bunch of years.And actually, you know, we've learned
from the folks who started it.You know, it's so long ago.
The folks who are part of that, we've learned over the years. You
know, Well, it started atnineteen toy nine or actually they started.
Evil Geniuses really started at ninety seven. You know, it's so community driven.
It was such an early thing thatwe had learnings over the last few

(27:03):
years around where our history really began, where those roads were from. So
there's some like progenitor or style timesthere, and it really it grew out
of that and into counterstrike and intoother spaces in the early years and we
had our you know, the realsea change for EG came when a guy
named Alex Garfield got involved. Hewas one of the first real business minded
people in esports and somebody who hasbeen a mentor in a real savant in

(27:26):
the industry. He came into EGas a fan, passionate volunteering and similar
to everything back in the day wasyou know, you might have had a
sponsor who has given you some dollarsand then they you know, the guy
who was collecting the dollars just pickedup the money and ran because he didn't
know if you'd ever see another fivebucks again. So the team was kind
of on the outs, was lookinglike it might fall apart, and Alex
came in and said, I canfind you guys sponsors. I can do

(27:48):
this, and really was one ofthe first people to take a brand and
start, you know, figuring outways to create value for sponsorships in super
early days when there wasn't really thatmuch live streaming going on. I think
you talked to Golden Boy a littlebit of about like shout casting and really
just like radio plus like watching areplay of a game, you know,
independently, like downloaded file. Soit was you know, really hard,
tricky times in the early days,and he got in there helped drive the

(28:11):
success of EG. We've you know, we drove some of the earliest significant
esports partnerships there were, and Alexhelped build this company to be one of
the strongest North America and globally byreally just we had partnerships, so we
had dollars, we could actually goout and spend money. This was before
that anyone was investing in the sportsin twenty twenty twelve. There were no
big money investors yet. We reallyhadn't seen streaming takeoff like twitch is today.

(28:34):
It was sort of pre that,and so before that, you know,
figuring out how you explained, youknow, what your viewership was,
what your fan base was, wasreally difficult. Alex did an amazing job,
built us a partnership with Monster that'sbeen going on since twenty eleven,
you know, one of the longestrunning esports partnerships. And when he h
you know, he then took thiscompany where we had built out all this

(28:55):
great talent. Because we were justthe Yankees at the time, we could
go buy at anybody and nobody couldreally compete with us. Say everyone once
the free monster, right, ifyou guys have stuff and no one else
has stuff exactly, you're you reallylike there's a lot of a lot of
power there. And I think wegot to be the bad boys of the
sports in a lot of ways formany years there because we were always that
you know, that group that wasyou know, you had that team you

(29:15):
liked with that one player, andif EG wanted him, we go get
him. And there are lots ofgreat rivalries built out of that in the
early days where we were kind ofthe foil against a lot of teams,
which fits the title, you know, evil geniuses. What were some of
the great early rivalries, Yeah,well, and what were they based on?
Get into some history here for me, Phil well An Alex's time.
StarCraft two became one of our realbig properties and we have this rivalry for

(29:37):
many years with Team Liquid. WhoI think you talked to Ken from Team
Liquid? Yes, sir, theirCEO Victor. We're very close friends.
We actually play in a Survivor poolagainst each other. He's also a big
Survivor fan. Do each of youhave in this season? Winners at war?
In this season? While I'm tanked, Sophie was my was my real
winner ticket and her getting blindsided byTony was was pretty brutal for me.
But I I'm pretty much out ofit. I think they ran after those

(30:03):
coconuts. She might get back in. I know she's such a her athleticism
is so underrated. Everything about sowho He's always underrated. She's such a
killer um. But I think hemight actually have Tony, which I think
we made a lot of fun ofhim, made fun of him a lot
during the draft because everyone was likeTony's going out first, Like this guy
can't control himself. Yeah, Butso we had a big rival recenc these

(30:25):
early days, and at that time, EG was a bigger brand with more
money and Team Liquid was kind ofa smaller community group. And they had
this guy Huck who like he waswinning a lot of stuff. He's Canadian
like, he had that North Americanpedigree and uh, you know we basically,
you know, we had this longrivalry. He had beat one our
guys, Idra and his battle thatinvolved like some real shit talk in the

(30:45):
game that was like it still getsmemed to this day. And then out
of blue, you know, welike, you know, we poached Huck
out from under him, and youknow it was like a big you know,
it was like, you know,Jeter signed with the Yankees kind of
thing. Is more like let's see, um, I meant to say,
uh, a Rod, but Iwas trying to think. It's more when
uh Johnny Damon went from the RedSox, oh man, something like that

(31:07):
where you're like, oh shit,you know these like these bien arrivals.
This guy was like he was theRed Sox. You know, he like
I've had that spirit. So I'mcurious how that goes, Like when when
he does something, is that areally tough emotional decision for Huck or in
the gaming communities it kind of likeSurvivor or it's like this is just a
big move, like does does histeam hate him? Now? How does

(31:30):
that all really play? Yeah,I think back in the day there was
probably so I think there were somemore hard feelings about choosing the dollars over
the loyalty to to the team.I think it's a lot more understood today.
It's a lot more like you know, that was like fully free agency.
Yeah, early free agency. Um, you know, everybody's good friends.
Now, Huck is you know,Huck runs the Boston Overwatched team.

(31:53):
It's owned by the Craft Group,so he's got his he's got his own
thing going on. Um, buthe you know, it was a big
move and something that was you know, incredible excitement within the industry at the
time and helped drive that rivalry whichyou know, the a rivalry of friends
as well. There's always a goodrapport there. We did some work with
them in Korea where we took ourteams together to Korea and kind of tried

(32:13):
to form an n A super teamto to compete there because that's where the
main bulk of talent was at thetime. So these rivalries started, you
know, long ago and continue onthroughout our different games in different ways where
you know, TL has grown ina big way and uh, you know
they're among the biggest esports brands inthe world now as well. And we
you know, we battle it outin Legal Legends and DODA and Counterstrike and

(32:37):
you know, so we get areally face off all the time now in
in interesting ways. And we're alwaystalking to each other too about how do
we know, keep making interesting stories, how do we keep you know,
how do we make our fans stillyou know, like still get excited about
the rivalries and about those battles interesting. So there is some talking even some
storylines in there. There's a littlebit of WWE in the background. Oh

(32:57):
yeah, you got to be abit of a WWE promoter. You know,
you need faces in your heels.So we can talk about that at
EG all time, because for youknow, by nature or a heel organization
being the evil geniuses, you know, we put that on our you know,
it's on the masthead. So notbeing afraid to lean into being a
bad guys, it's part of funto getting to work here. That's really
interesting. Do you coach up players? I mean not you personally, but
I mean do players get coached upin a way of like, hey man,

(33:22):
lean into it, have fun withit. Oh yeah, absolutely,
I personally do it quite frequently withplayers telling them about their brand. And
you know, I think a lotof folks. You know, you talk
about being controversial, and it's aboutbeing controversial for the right reasons, right,
you know, you have people whobecome controversial because they say things that
are offensive or insensitive or or cruelor crude, and like you don't got
to do that. You know,they're you know, you're watching Michael Jordan

(33:44):
documentaries or you're watching all these differentpeople who've been great shit talkers in history.
You know, different times, differentcultures allow different things to be appropriate.
But you can say and do thingsthat gets you attention, but you
know, are being are showing bravadoor that are you know, not being
afraid to you know, make abig you know, make a big call
out things like that that you knowthe community can have fun with and nobody

(34:06):
has to like, nobody has tosuffer be um like be disenfranchise about.
So we work on that all thetime. And it's it's a lot of
fun too. When a player reallyfinds their voice, who wants to have
a brand and wants to you know, be be larger than life. That's
a lot of fun, is it. When you talk to them, do
you go up and say, hey, man, shows some more bravado,
or do you go up to themand say, dude, look at what

(34:28):
I thought of last night. Trythis line. It's gonna be great.
I have there have been times inmy life where I have specifically helped craft
a tweet before for somebody who wantedto do something. But a lot of
players, you know, you recruittalent and players who who fit that mindset
and lifestyle. You know, there'syou know, in traditional sports, you
gotta you have a few people outthere who are your Kawhi Leonards who are

(34:49):
just these silent assassins. But byand large, you know, like Brett
Favre, Kobe Bryant, like alot of these guys, like they talk
big games. You know, they'renot afraid to like go out and um
and you know, and speak onit because a lot if you're the best,
you probably built a lot of confidenceover the time. So just going
out and finding people who believe inthemselves is oftentimes a you know, a
key to success there to begin with, and then it's just a matter of

(35:09):
making sure they understand how to doit in them in the best way for
him, it's going to help thembe successful, not just as a pro,
but down the line. You know, if you're good, you know,
if you can help build your brandand help be successful on and off
the field, then you're gonna sityourself up for a good career, especially
in esports. That could be youknow, being a huge streamer after you
retire, if you if you dida good job of fostering your community.

(35:30):
Has there ever been anybody who isa really solid player who you were looking
at as possibly bringing into the teamthat everyone just said, you know what's
he's too nice, Like that's thesweetest that's the sweetest person we've ever met.
We can't bring him into evil geniuses. No, you find a way
to fit in the nice guys too. We got some, We had some
great nice guys, you know,and they're like, you know, they're

(35:52):
like the candy a throat of peopleto make them okay with all the UK
with the people out there who aremaybe being a bit more, a bit
more aggressive, and how they posturetheir their stance in the world. All
about balance, exactly outstanding made afourth be with you, So we got
that balance and all things today rightthere you go. Absolutely this interview taking

(36:12):
place on May the fourth, SoI absolutely appreciate you bringing Star Wars into
US. Okay, I got yoursidetracked with rivalries, but that is when.
So what time period is it thatEvil Geniuses is really starting to make
their first rivals. Yeah, soeg's I mean eg's making rivals as early
as two thousand and five, thousand, six thousand and seven. But really

(36:32):
when modern esports we talked about withTwitch and the growth of viewership and online
streaming, that's all in that twentyten to twenty twelve range when EGI really
took off and our big rivalries cameand EG kind of positioned itself in a
place where it was the number oneteam in the best spot. Alex Garfield
ran in the show, and itmade a decision to sell to Twitch,
which was the endemic the streaming platform. It's now become so huge. I

(36:55):
think they had you know, thiswas right when I was coming in in
a twenty fourteen That's when my storystarts running one of our teams, and
they sold a Twitch gave a lotof opportunity to EG. Was one of
the first real quote unquote investments intoan esports team where you could do more
than just what your sponsors could pay, which made it seem like EG was,
you know, at the top andwas going to keep getting bigger and

(37:15):
better and have even more power overeveryone else, and it didn't quite work
out that way. The you know, other teams obviously were not super excited
about the broadcast platform that we're allstreaming on owning a team. It'd be
like a CBS bought the Cowboys,you know, or right, and then
they decided they were going to showwith the Cowboys all sixteen games, and
Tony Romo is going to broadcast allof them and everyone else's games, right,

(37:36):
So it's it's a conflict of interest, And that was something that really
put EG kind of in a ina position where we had to be careful
about not upsetting the other teams inthe ecosystem, and eventually started to look
started looking for a way to divestout of that sale that had gone to
Twitch and find a new home fora new ownership home. And that was
where my story really came in.I came on running our Dota team,

(37:58):
which really post stark Raft, becameone of our biggest divisions, and I
joined on to the team in anot leadership role but helping to support it.
Right before TI five, the International. It's the world championship for Dota.
It was the biggest prize pool eventin esports history at the time,
and our Dota team based out ofNorth America won that event in Seattle.
It was the biggest prize pool.It was the first time a North American

(38:21):
team had really won an esports championship. You had some individual player games where
a single American had done it,but this was a you know, a
five person team that really won abig championship was a huge deal in the
industry. I was working on them. I was working on the team side
right when EG was looking to divest. And how'd you get into it because
you mentioned that your first jobs inesports you weren't even getting paid. True.

(38:45):
So it was when I was incollege and the like, you know,
first decade of two thousand seys andeight does nine range. I was
doing community sites, helping to buildmy resume for post post collegiate career,
just working in some esports community broadcastsites, doing doing tournament coverage and things
like that. Built some relationships,and then I graduated college, went to

(39:06):
work in politics in Washington State forseveral years, but maintained relationships with all
the people I knew from esports,and the industry really started to take off
after a few years after I graduatedin twenty fourteen, and that was when
I reached out to some of mycontacts and said, hey, you know
I got I got a college degree. You know, I know how to
do the work. You know,I know the industry go you know,
if you see opportunity, but youknow, I'd love to get back in

(39:27):
and be a part of this asit takes off. And I got a
really great opportunity at EG that spuninto being a part of that god of
team. You left the campaign trailto go join EG, I did.
I was a I was on aninitiative campaign. We were in the last
two months to campaign, and Istepped away to go join EGU. And
fortunately I left knowing that we weregoing to win. We were that was
a shoe and I won't share thepolitics of it, but we could not

(39:52):
lose. We were Washington State.It was a progressive campaign. We had
sixty seven percent or something in thepolls. So yeah, so you're one
for one in your political career somethinglike that. I was a part of
a candidate campaign before that, butthey I've had good successes there. So
looking at the state of politics inthe state of esports, I'm guessing there
are no regrets. Yeah, forsure. I still keep in touch with

(40:15):
so my political folks, and thoseconversations are a lot different than anywhere when
I was in politics. You know, if we had Obama, the world
seemed like, you know, everythingwas sunshine and rainbows. In twenty fourteen,
I thought I was stepping away agood time. But yeah, so
you get into evil geniuses right beforethe big win and then how that changed
things. Yeah, so it reallybecame about transitioning after that win to figuring

(40:39):
out where EG was going to go, who the new ownership was going to
be after the sale from Twitch,and as somebody who had joined EG after
the sale, but like after theoriginal sale to Twitch, but before the
divestment, I was kind of inone of the few positions of people who
could really help be a part ofthat bridge because people who are a part
of the original deal were not reallyable to transition as a part of the
divestment because they were commit to Twitchsince the sale. So I was really

(41:02):
in charge of helping shepherd EG outfrom underneath Twitch and into its independence again.
You know, we worked on divestmentnegotiations for a long time, and
I was still running the Dota teamat the time and still helping us expand
into other games, and eventually wedivested out. We grew into some more
titles and won a championship and Callof Duty in twenty eighteen, and got
some big podium finishes and other gamesand some of our other divisions, So

(41:24):
we had a lot of real successeskind of independently, and the whole time
I was out looking and working totry and find an investment group to help
shepherd EG into this time of esportsnow that since you know, when I
joined, EG had just sold.We were the first team to sell and
have an investor in Twitch. Bythe time we were divested and independent,
now everybody had an investor, andwe were one of the only teams without
an investor. So you know,we're in a bit of a scramble to

(41:45):
find somebody to help us catch upas teams are starting to spend more money
investing beyond their revenues to try andbuild success in those days. So last
year, about a year ago,we closed a investment deal with peaks X,
who acquired us their great ownership groupout of Chicago, who are led
by Matt and Jenny. They're amarried a married pair who have a They

(42:09):
have an amazing business. They builtin the financial in the financial world,
and it took an interest in USand soccer teams before us in sports.
So they've helped us for us intoa new era, bringing on more talent,
more people, really letting us expandinto games and letting me take more
of a role and focus on thethings that I am an expert in,
which is a gaming side. Iwas really doing it all before and since

(42:30):
then I've gotten to focus in onall of our gaming and all of our
teams and helped make us as successfulas we can on the field. So
really proud of you know, wejust got into Legal Legends and it's kind
of a fun experiment. We werean expansion team basically, and we finished
second in the regular season after onlyhaving a roster put together two months before.
So um, you know that kindof stuffs a blast. Is somebody
who grew up playing Madden Franchise NonStop. I'm just I got to play Franchise

(42:52):
Mode every day, So that's good. Is what's the most fun part of
the job. What's the most rewardingpart of the job when you when you
land a big deal or when yourteam wins a game over arrival right there
in the middle. Yeah, winningis winning is so good. I mean,
you know you get to see thata little bit and survivor every time

(43:13):
somebody wins an immunity and it's justlike, yeah, you know, it's
like a once in a lifetime experience. Yeah. Wa, Winning a championship
in any sport is the odds areso stacked against you. There's so many
smart people, so many talented peopleon the other side, all equally battling
it out, and so to youknow, make it all come together and
see those guys win, and especiallyafter you've invested so much of your emotional
time and effort into helping these peoplebe successful on the field. Uh,

(43:36):
there's nothing like it. And it'sa it's really a drug. It's it's
so hard because you don't get itenough and you're always like you're always seeking
that next, that next feeling ofit, and um, yeah, it's
once a lot of people who bringover to EG who worked not on team
side, but work somewhere else inthe industry, and when they get here,
they always say the same thing.You know, their experience of watching
the team's play changes. It's neverthe same. You can never you know,

(44:00):
I'm a big sports fan, butall my traditional sports teams, that
fandom is like, it'll never bethe same now as my esports fandom because
I know what it's like to ownthat team really and like real terms and
really really being involved in their winsand their losses. I can only imagine.
I mean, I get invested inmy fantasy football team. So you

(44:21):
mentioned that you have these new investorscome in, you sail you, You
sound very happy with it. Howdo you usher a fan base through something
like that, Like, there's gotto be a lot of nervous fans out
there going, oh no, arethey gonna try to turn evil geniuses into
the nice geniuses? How do youdeal with all that? Yeah, and
it's tricky and I don't think itgoes nothing super smooth about it ever.

(44:43):
Perfect you do you You do thebest you can, especially when it comes
to what we are looking at withPeak six was they were going to give
us the opportunity to do what wehad wanted to do with our fans for
a long time, which was youknow put that. You know, if
you think of evil geniuses like acity in traditional sports, you know,
we're like, you know, we'relike this city of Seattle, and we're
trying to get the Sonics back,right, Like we're trying to give our
fans that team they really want toroot for in the game they want in

(45:06):
the game they want to see.So now that's what Peak six afforded us,
was the ability to go out andget those teams and those games that
bring us back into the you know, the places where EG has always been
a big part of the story.So now that was the core of it.
And there's a lot of learnings andshifting and pieces that go along the
way. And you know, someof that stuff I think gets related to
your investors, and you see itin different games and different teams that have

(45:27):
investment groups, where I think theinvestment groups can sometimes get responsibility for all
the actions that happen, but byand large it's the same people just making
the decisions and there's a bit morehigher optics on well maybe it was this
group or maybe it was that group. Right, I think the investment groups
become like the production of esports,right, you know, the very like
rapid banking communities start to wonder,you know, how much of their meddling

(45:50):
versus how much it's just natural what'sgoing on? I think whenever you see
something big come together in a timeperiod, like I'm thinking of my ESPN
biography of how ESPN happened, orMalcolm Gladwell talking about how all the different
computer folks came together at the sametime, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs,
it just seems like there are reallygood people who also just happened to be

(46:15):
at the right places at the righttime. And so far, everyone I've
talked to in esports just happened tobe the right person at the right place
at the right time. Do youfeel like this when they write the history
of esports, it's going to belike the last ten or fifteen years that
really everything changed, that it wentfrom guys meeting up in the neighborhood to

(46:38):
what it's going to become down theroad. Yeah, and what it already
is. For sure. I thinkthere's gonna be a great oral history that
comes out that's about those early years, like at ESPN that's been written.
You know, it'd all be whichwhen twitch kicked up and this burst of
revenue and opportunity for esports because thereare a lot of people who are smart
people in esports who are the theywere the right play stare at the wrong

(47:00):
damn time. You know, they'rehere in two thousand and two, two
thousand and three and there were nomoney and no you know, no sight,
you know, nothing in sight ofwhat was gonna be successful. So
it'll be good. There's some there'splenty of drama. It'll be it'll be
delicious for people to read on.We're all looking forward to that. Well,
Phil, I've really appreciated you joiningme today, man, and I

(47:22):
know that you're a big Survivor fan. Do you have any thoughts on winners
at War what's going on this season? Yeah, for sure, I have
lots of thoughts. I am abig Survivor fan. I've gotten I've taken
a lot of effort into getting morepeople into Survivor for season forty, you
know, because as a sports fans, season forty is like it is the
fantasy season. It's the thing youcan only do in Madden where you put
all the best players ever against eachother, like Jim Brown can't usually play

(47:44):
against you know, Emmett Smith,like its just not physically possible. So
it's so true. Tom Brady theJerry Rice, Yeah, exactly. So.
I love the thrill of it andgetting people and involved. It's been
big. I'm I'm I'm excited aboutwhere we're headed with a two hour episode
on Wednesday and into the finale.I think I'm sad because I don't think
there's any way Tony makes it tothe end. You know, I thought
that when I watched Kage Owen forthe first time. But it really feels

(48:06):
like this group won't possibly let ithappen. But uh, you know,
maybe he makes the run. Itwould be it would be something else to
see him shoot the moon twice.If anyone could do it, it's too
I'm with you. I just don'tsee this group letting it happen. But
if anyone could do it, it'sit's gotta be to me. I mean,
you almost shot the moon yourself.I'm really curious, you know,
like you know what, like whatwas that experience like for you? Just

(48:27):
knowing, like knowing your backs againstthe wall every day and that everyone knows
you're gonna win if you make it, but like you gotta keep pulling rabbits
out of your house had to doit. It's really stressful in one sense,
but it's also really freeing in anothersense, Like when you know no
one's gonna take you to the finalthree, it really allows you to concentrate

(48:49):
less on the on trying to gathervotes that you know they're just gonna lie
to you or toe you straight upin some of the situations, and you
can really start to get clever.That's when I started making fake idle and
hiding idols. And originally I wasn'tmaking fakes to trick people. I was
making them to save myself in caseI didn't find an idol or win immunity.
But you also, do you feelthis momentum and I'm sure you felt

(49:10):
it in your job where things juststart clicking and they go right and you
feel like you can win, andmeanwhile the folks around you are kind of
feeling the opposite. So he hasmomentum, but he started even earlier than
I did. And I hope hecan make a fire, because that's a
step that I got. I gotreal close and I made a fire just

(49:35):
that. Chris Underwood made the fastestfire in history I know, you had,
you made a good run at it. There's been some pretty Becky was
it Becky Sundra, you know,holl By yourself. They didn't have to
bring you out matches, So yeah, I appreciate that. Phil. I'm
curious, like you're gonna go backon Survivor that seems inevitable, Like you're
too like you're too fun to watchon TV not to have them invite you

(49:55):
back some day if the see keepsgoing. I'm really curious, like,
how would you do things differently,Like what would be a change, because
obviously you got voted out, youknow mid you know, before Merge originally,
what's the like, what's the thingsyou've thought about? It's like,
this is what Rick Devans has todo different Yeah, I think about that
all the time. First of all, I just assume going back, like

(50:15):
it is not going to work outas well as it did this time,
Like so many things went right andit was it was beyond my wildest expectation.
So I just know it's going tobe a disappointment. I'm comfortable with
that, But um, I don'tknow, Like I look at the game
I was playing initially, which hadnothing to do with idols or immunities.
I mean we all And I think, hey, if if Manu my original
tribe could have won one or twochallenges, how deep I could have gotten.

(50:38):
Um, I didn't get swaps screwedlike that. That's not fair.
But the swamp was so weird thatI ended up with the same people and
that just didn't work out. SoI don't know. I think I would.
I would definitely try to diffuse mythreat level. And just like guys,
anytime I go into the woods,I'm taking someone with me, Like
I know what you're thinking. I'mjust going out for idols. I don't
know. Man, Yeah, ifyou got Tony, you have to Tony

(51:00):
blueprint a little bit to work from, right, Yeah right, Just make
a big ladder, Let people enjoymy company's try not to go insane,
sitting camp, keep working on yourfire making skills, just praying and getting
ready. Yeah exactly. But Idon't know that's a problem I'd like to
have. Survivor is fun to play. Yeah, I'm curious. One thing.

(51:21):
I really appreciate it. I've listenedto you know you on RGP or
in other places and checked in acouple of your esports podcasts too, to
make sure I wasn't just being someredundancy. But I appreciate you talk a
lot about within the twists of thegame that you like approach survivors a casual
and someone who just like appreciates whoevercomes and accepts it the game changes.
I think that's really good attitude totake. I also take it that somebody

(51:44):
comes from esports where our games aregetting changed by the developer every week and
we have to, you know,win on whatever the conditions are. I
tend to be a mindset that youknow, you played by the rules of
the game, and that the natureof this game is that the rules change.
So I'm curious for you, foryou in particular, like as you
talk about that, what within thatcontext, what is like the ideal survivor
set up to you? Like?How like what like what's your favorite mix

(52:07):
of all the twists? You know, like you got how many players,
how many starting tribes, the swaps, the final twos, final threes,
Where do you get idols? Howdo you get them? How many of
them? Like all that, Yeah, that's perfect survivor to Rick Devans.
I've never really thought about what myperfect survivor was before I got on the
show, I'll admit, and Igot on the show. Ghost Island was

(52:29):
the last one I was watching.It was what I was watching, I
think before when I found out Iwas going to be on the show.
But um, I thought there werethey were starting to get too many idols.
I think that you need idols.I don't think you need like an
idol and a nullifier and a splitvote. So I guess when there's like
maybe three advantages in the game atthe time, is kind of what I

(52:52):
want, Like you can find things. I do like that there's a fire
making challenge, Like I don't likethat you can just vote out the biggest
at at Final four if they don'twin immunity. I just think that's it's
too easy if you're not a bigthreat. Um. But but I don't
know. I will say when weall came back in like literally the first

(53:14):
time us original Edge of Extinction peoplewere revealed and everyone was like, oh
my gosh, we didn't know theywere there. Jeff lined us all up
and he asked everyone in the game, like all the people who had been
voted out, all the people whohadn't, who thinks it's un does anyone
think it's unfair that somebody's gonna getto come back. And I was the
only one who raised my hand,and this was before I won my way

(53:35):
back in. I was the onlyone who I thought it was unfair.
So yeah, there you go.And of course later everyone was like,
well, yeah, I thought itwas unfair. I wasn't going to tell
Jeff that, like, well Idid, um, like he's a reasonable
guy. But yeah, I don'tmind ever turn any part. I think
it's like it's an interesting twist,especially even like the Chris Underworld. You
know, people are really up inarms about that stuff. I think,

(53:58):
you know, it's like bringing arate bus and I think that's what it
would be like in the finale nightwhen they do it for this season,
when you bring somebody back in whoyou know, like Christ, They've got
insane connections on on the jury now, like everyone's got a band together all
of a sudden. It's definitely adifferent game. You know, it's not
yeah classic, but it's you know, people should be able to assess.
And I think you've done a goodjob of being an owner of like hey,

(54:19):
like you know, I know youyou played the cards the way you
didn't, and you know, andChris won fair and square. It's not
his fault for for doing it,yeah exactly. And everyone's like, well
they put him into late and it'slike, yeah, but if I hadn't
given in that half of an idol, he still would have been gone.
Like that's that's the game, andit's gonna be really that's the great thing
about Survivors. It evolves like howwill people play differently this time? And

(54:40):
then after that it's not baseball,where where the numbers are the most important
thing, and you have a hundredyears that you can compare to each other.
It's like, Nope, season's over, let's start over again. Uh,
And you just go on and hopethat it's going to be a great
season. Yeah, who do youthink wins this season? What's your what's
your bet? At this point,I'm sticking with Denise. She was my

(55:01):
winner pick at the very beginning,so I'm sticking with her. How about
you. I've got Denise in anotherSurvivor pool. Sophie was like my start
of season winner pick. I thoughtshe was, but of what's left,
yeah, I think Denise is probablythe best shot. I think it's probably
Denise or Sarah. I think,if I had to guess, I think
Sarah's got two shields in front ofher and Tonian and Jeremy, who have

(55:23):
to go before you've got the returnee, who will also be somebody people for
that they have to get out,which really leaves her plus the plus that
kind of triumvirate of people who areyou hoping to go to the end together.
She just needs to win Fire,and I think so I think she.
I think she wins in most scenariosif she can get past fire,
but I think she gets a shotat fire at least. And for everyone

(55:44):
listening, just to reminder, we'rerecording this may fourth before the two hour
episode, so just remember that andpraise us or pass judgment on us,
you know, however is appropriate.Well, thank you so much for joining
me. Phil Aaron. Where canyou follow you? And evil Geniuses?
Yes, so follow evil Geniuses onTwitter, evil geniuses you know, like

(56:06):
slash evil Geniuses on Twitch as well. For me, it's Philip P h
I l l I P Underscore Aruma r AM on Twitter. You know,
look me up, I'm not thatexciting. I'm mostly tweeting about Survivor
and random TV shows and things.So happy to engage with anybody who wants
to, but just breaking the timefrom you, Rick, It's a beautiful

(56:27):
thing. Thank you so much,Phil, big thanks to Rob Sastrenino and
Scott Saint Pierre. I'll see everyonein the real world, real soon.