Alison Galvani on the Murder of Her Mother Nancy Galvani.

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:20):
You are listening to the ROBERTA.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Glass True Crime Report, putting the true back in true
crime from New York City.

Speaker 3 (00:33):
ROBERTA.

Speaker 4 (00:34):
Glass is now on the record.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Okay, how is everybody. I'm delighted to have on today
Alison Gavanni and her daughter Sarah to talk about the
cold case of her mother and Sarah's grandmother, Nancy Galvani.
Welcome Alison and Sarah.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
Thank you, Roberta.

Speaker 5 (01:11):
Yeah, thank you so much for having us.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
So, who would like who would like to go first?
What do we know about the murder of your mother?
Nancy Galvani? Wow?

Speaker 5 (01:28):
Okay, Well, just running through some of the key evidence
and the timeline. In the summer of nineteen eighty two,
when I was five and she was thirty six. Oh wait,
actually step back even further. Yeah, my father had become

(01:50):
violent and including smothering her with a pillow and what
she described to friends as an attempted murder. I was
there at that, uh, and I was I begged him

(02:11):
to stop, and he, you know, he did stop. She
wrote in her diary that that incident, after like a
series of violent incidents, that is what solidified her decision
to file for divorce. So in the summer of nineteen

(02:34):
eighty two, we moved my mother and I moved to
well what was termed then, you know, battered woman shelter,
and they had so during that summer they had come

(02:58):
to just a temporary agreement that I was gonna spend
weekends with my father Friday night to Monday morning. And

(03:20):
he was he was fighting for custody of me. Oh,
in terms of that incident, the smothering incident, he doesn't
deny it. He says that my wife was screaming. I
wanted to deaden the noise for the neighbor.

Speaker 1 (03:37):
I put pill over her face till she conked out.

Speaker 5 (03:41):
And actually that was throughout like my childhood into adulthood.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
Like that was the explanation that he gave me, which.

Speaker 5 (03:53):
Because the violence was normalized and I just thought, like
everyone's husband's beat their wives and children. Uh. It wasn't
actually till I had Sarah when she was a little
baby that I realized how.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
Uh wrong that even that like incident was.

Speaker 5 (04:19):
So Yeah, he was fighting for custody, et cetera, which
which is kind of pertinent than what he did with
me the weekend she was murdered. So I wrote so
she wrote in her diary that my that I had

(04:41):
told her from a weekend visit that he was planning
something mean and secret. Then the next weekend, so I
had just started spending time with him, like most of
the summer, I wasn't with him, like you know, I
was with my mo other when we moved out in uh,

(05:03):
and then they came to this temporary agreement. I think
that's all pertinent because like for someone who's like fighting
for custody and hadn't hardly seen me all summer to
then arrange for me to go to his uncle's house
the weekend that she was was killed is uh, you know,

(05:30):
it's it's inconsistent with.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Unless Okay, I'm not sorry something.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
It was something unusual. How old were you and what
year was this?

Speaker 1 (05:41):
This was nineteen eighty two. I was five.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
So do you have any telling your mother that your
father was going to do something mean and secret.

Speaker 5 (05:53):
I don't have a memory of that specifically, I've just.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Seen in her diary she wrote that I do have a.

Speaker 5 (06:04):
Very clear memory of him arranging for me to go
to his uncle's I have a clear memory of like
that smothering incident, of many events that are relevant.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
The mean and secret part. I don't remember telling her that.

Speaker 5 (06:24):
Wow, And I don't you know, I just I I
I obviously had a sense of it, of something going on.
I don't think that I like realized what he was,
what he was planning, But I apparently had a sense

(06:46):
there was something mean and secret where my apparently my
words does sound.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
Like a five year old's words.

Speaker 5 (06:54):
So the weekend she was murdered, you know, she dropped
me off on the Friday she was was spicking up
on the Monday morning. He called her and this is
all in her diary and actually he has confirmed a
lot of this and like a police recorded phone call
that I did with the authorities as an adult. After

(07:18):
I after the denial lifted and I realized, yeah, I
realized that the evidence is overwhelming. So yeah, I heard
him on the telephone that weekend talking to his uncle,

(07:38):
who I had never we didn't see very often. I'd
never stayed at his house alone. I've never been alone
with that uncle. So I heard my father arranging for
me to spend the night with his uncle has the
same first name, Patrick, pat And after he got off

(07:59):
the phone, like it even struck.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
Me then as being very odd, and.

Speaker 5 (08:05):
I definitely didn't want to do it, and so I objected,
and he said, oh, well, I've already arranged it, so
just go for like the day and you don't have.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
To spend the night. I promise I'll pick you up.

Speaker 5 (08:24):
So meanwhile, my father called my mother and said instead
of coming Monday morning, he wanted her to come a
Sunday night. She was arranging with a group of friends
a taco party, and which apparently according to her diary

(08:47):
and what she told number of people, you know, she said, well,
she she told him she had like had these plans
already and like the taco party. I think, did I mention?
Eight o'clock is when he asked her to pick me up.
And you know, I think the talk she left the

(09:07):
taco party, so it must have been like scheduled earlier,
so like she had to leave as like a host.
That was kind of awkward. So anyway, she left in
her yellow Buick. Meanwhile, he had me at Uncle Pat's
and her yellow Buick, in a very distinctive car, was
seen in his driveway by.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
A neighbor.

Speaker 5 (09:33):
Who I think is still alive and is and has
a very clear memory of seeing her car.

Speaker 3 (09:43):
In fact, her car in his driveway that night.

Speaker 5 (09:46):
Yeah, like just when she was supposed to pick Yeah, yeah,
at like at like eight twenty or something. And actually
she had apparently come back from a movie or something
like that, and the police like verified, Yeah, that's consistent,
not that she was a suspect, but like her timing
of when like she saw the car was also consistent

(10:07):
with what she said, you know, I guess watching the
movie and then coming back or whatever.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
And and she thought it was.

Speaker 5 (10:15):
Odd because she knew that my mother and I had
moved out, and so she didn't expect like my mother's
car to be in the driveway.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
And this is displaying the neighbor it was.

Speaker 5 (10:30):
It was a duplex eighteen seventy one in Green Street,
And so when I say neighbor, she was actually living
above us. And so this was basically her uh And
and my father's apartment was under like you know these
these uh a San.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
Francisco Platinum apartment flats. So anyway, that was at Uncle Pat's.
My father called I did you Oh sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
I'm so sorry, but you call your channel my father's alibi.
But really, what your father did was use you to
lure your mother to her to her death. I mean, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5 (11:16):
I was his like false alibi because he said I
was with him that night, but I was not with him.

Speaker 1 (11:27):
But I think that.

Speaker 5 (11:30):
And the police didn't realize that until I contacted them
as an adult. And then my father confirms like about
going to uncle Pat's canceling picking me up. All that
in police recorded phone calls. So there's that's like unquestionable.

Speaker 3 (11:52):
But I think I heard you say somewhere because his
uncle had the same name as him. If the police
were to ask her, oh, where were you and she
said I was at Pat's house, then it sounds like
she's talking about her day, yeah, or like when in
reality she's talking.

Speaker 5 (12:06):
About Yeah, and I called my father by his first name,
like I called my mom mommy, but my father wanted
him to call him Pat, and so they had the
first they had the first name. So I think that
was ah, yeah, that was confusing. Oh so yeah, so yeah,

(12:35):
I remember because I didn't want to be at uncle
Pat's house.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
Oh so go ahead, how was your mother murdered?

Speaker 1 (12:44):
She was strangled?

Speaker 5 (12:46):
So you know, when I describe the the pillow incident,
I mean that was asphyxiation.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
She was. That's how you know her cause of death
was asphyxiation.

Speaker 5 (13:00):
She was. The killer took a sleeping bag from the
trunk of her buick, So we know the killer had
her car, and she couldn't have just like walked away
and then been murdered by like a random person or whatever,

(13:21):
because like the killer all.

Speaker 3 (13:24):
Seccess to the trunk of her car.

Speaker 5 (13:26):
Yeah, yeah, And so she was bound well actually he
like he stripped her clothes. She wasn't sexually assaulted apparently,
but he stripped her clothes I think, like down to
her underwear and then bound her, put in the sleeping bag,
bound to a throape, put a cinder attached to cinder block,

(13:50):
and she was found.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
The next day.

Speaker 5 (13:55):
I mean, I think he didn't expect her body to
be maybe ever found or but she was actually found
by fishermen the next day, so like within twenty four
hours of her death. And that so that was the
night she told everyone at that party, I'm gonna go

(14:16):
pick up Allison.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
I'll be right back.

Speaker 5 (14:20):
Her friends knew she was going to like her strange husband.
When she didn't come back, they were concerned. They were
really concerned. They started calling my father, he didn't report
her missing, and yeah, a sketch. Then after like my
mother's body was found, there wasn't any identification on her,
but there was like sketch in the newspaper. So let

(14:43):
me back up with the Uncle Pax. I do think
it's really important. So you know, my father promised I
didn't have to spend the night. He called Uncle Pat
and canceled picking me up, and like gave two over
the years too excuses for that. And if policecored a
phone call, he says, oh, well, both things are true.

(15:05):
So he said his car broke down, his Mercedes, his
silver Mercedes, and although he had it the next morning,
his car broke down, and I was even asking like,
oh can he come into Taxically he really didn't want
to spend the night with this, like old man. And

(15:28):
he also said, well, he had a couple of beers
and so he didn't want to drink and drive the
He promised he was going to pick me up though,
so like having the beers is a troy and he oh,
he did not drink a lot, so it's not like
he was. I mean, I believe he could have had

(15:50):
beers that night, but like promised picking me up, and
he was fighting for custody and hadn't seen me all
essentially very little that entire summer, and then to have beers,
so then he couldn't. You know, It's just it strains
common sense.

Speaker 1 (16:09):
So yeah he did.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
Also, Like from what I understand during your childhood, he
was like more obsessive than like neglectful almost, I feel
like right like he wasn't like was he the kind
of person that would not that would forget to pick
you up?

Speaker 1 (16:22):
Oh no, he definitely wouldn't forget.

Speaker 3 (16:23):
To not forget, but like but like not care enough
to pick you up.

Speaker 1 (16:28):
You know he would, Yeah, he would.

Speaker 5 (16:30):
I mean he was kind of neglectful in some ways,
but not in terms of like picking me up type thing.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
I mean he was.

Speaker 5 (16:36):
Neglectful in like feeding me regularly or that sort of thing,
but yeah, I like in terms of like picking me up.
But he was always like punctual and that wasn't an issue.
I mean I did walk home from school, which I know,

(16:56):
like some at a young age, some people thought that
was like and safe. But if he was supposed to
pick me up someplace, he yeah he would, So you know,
I was still expecting my mother. So my father comes
Monday morning, Uh, I'm expecting my you know, it takes

(17:20):
me to his home.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
My mother doesn't come.

Speaker 5 (17:23):
And it was a very similar like feeling because as
the time was going by when he was supposed to
pick me up the night before, he wasn't coming, and
then he canceled coming, and then like the next morning,
I was feeling that way about my mother, the same,
you know kind of and anticipation and concern. So yeah,

(17:48):
the so her body was found. Her friends reported her missing.
They identified her as he did. Her friends kept calling
him saying, like Nancy said, she was going to you
to pick up Allison.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
She didn't come back. Uh she looks there's a sketch
of this woman in the newspaper.

Speaker 5 (18:11):
It looks like her. And you actually remember those phone
calls coming in.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
And he.

Speaker 5 (18:27):
So he did eventually, uh report her missing under he
wasn't the first person that her friends reported her missing.
I think it was like Friday, So she actually even
even if you're leaving his story like he's saying, I
didn't call her to tell her to pick out, you know, up,
but Friday, that was just I don't know, but she.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
I don't know if he thinks she's mistaken, but he
says he didn't.

Speaker 5 (18:52):
He does say so he admits like, oh, yeah, that
was the night your mother was killed, your uncle pats
blah blah blah. But he the part about calling my
mother to ask to pick me up, he like denies
that part of it. But even so, if he's expecting
her to pick me up Monday morning, he doesn't call

(19:13):
the police. And he was telling me meanwhile, like, oh,
he basically wanted me to think that my mother had
abandoned me, but I didn't believe that, and I think
that was probably his plan. He thought the cinder block
was sufficient weight to wait her down. But yeah, he

(19:35):
didn't expect her body was going to be found so
soon or at all. And she was much more gregarious
than him. He probably didn't even think like, oh, she's
going to tell people, I'm gonna go pick Alison up
and so like, in a way, he did a number
of stupid things, but he's still gotten away with it.

(19:55):
I mean he's still The police did come on, so,
like friends identified her in the newspaper. They came. I
think it was like Saturday, like, so it's still within
the week, like five days later with search warrant. They
apparently found so the people who last saw her described

(20:16):
her clothes she was wearing. Remember she's been stripped. They
found clothes that matched that in his apartment. Her car
was in at his house.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
Big detail, big detail there. Yeah, very evidence there.

Speaker 5 (20:34):
I mean, she wasn't living there anymore.

Speaker 1 (20:36):
So and so yeah, they did arrest him. Then.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
Were you there when he got arrested?

Speaker 5 (20:44):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (20:44):
I was, What was that?

Speaker 5 (20:46):
Like? Well, I remember, so he had already called his
mother to come out from Minnesota, uh, to like help
take care of me, which I mean even that I
don't think that that's that incriminating, but still, like he
realizes that if he was expecting, like my mother was

(21:08):
going to come pick me up any day, like calling
his mother to like fly out to take care of me,
it's like he knew my mother wasn't coming back anyway.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
So my brather incriminating. I think that's very incriminating, certainly.

Speaker 5 (21:21):
Yeah, yeah, so my grandmother was already there, which shows
like I don't remember what day she arrived, but it's
within the week. Still and like he called she came
from Minnesota, and oh oh, he had also told my mother,

(21:44):
She wrote in her diary that he had to fly
out in business. That's why he needed to change like
to Sunday night. He needed to fly out midnight on business.
And the police checked the airlines there was he didn't
have any trip booked anyway. So yeah, seeing him arrested,

(22:08):
I had the front window, so I just could see
from my bedroom. I saw him like in handcuffs, and
I did ask my grandmother, like, why why are they
taking him? And she said, oh, they just want to
talk to him. He refused to talk to them, and yeah,

(22:32):
then he had he got out on bail, you know,
he was so he was like gone, oh sorry. I also, yeah,
he was in handcuffs and I said, well, why is
he in handcuffs? And she said, oh, they do that.
They you know, because police talk to a lot of
dangerous people. Uh, they that's like customary. I like, no

(22:52):
one had actually told me as a kid, like you're
that Pat was well again, it's a Callema's first name,
that Pat was arrested. But you know, there are all
these memories where it occurred to me at a certain age. No,
that was really they don't put you in handcuffs unless

(23:14):
you're being arrested. You know, so I like believed what
as a five year old believed, basically accepted what like
these adults were telling me or like that there was
you know, they'd strike me as odd, which is maybe
why I remember them, and you know, like the trauma
I think of the situation, I just encapsulated the memories vividly.

(23:39):
So I guess that's most of the story and evidence.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
Sarah knows a.

Speaker 2 (23:53):
Oh is your mom forgetting anything? Sarah?

Speaker 3 (23:57):
Oh h no, I think you got everything.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
Okay, So how how so how did he get so
he's charged with this murderer? And then how did the
okay go ahead? Sarah?

Speaker 3 (24:09):
Sorry this isn't in the same time frame. But he
told your grandmother at her funeral that like, oh, my
mother didn't suffer. Yeah, he said, like, oh she didn't
suffer like my mother's mother. Yeah yeah, wow would he
know that?

Speaker 5 (24:30):
Yeah? That struck her as odd? That actually, So there's
like pieces of evidence that I find like very incriminating
that I guess i've and because I was more than
giving him the benefit of doubtcause no one wants to
think their father, like, you know, killed their mother. So
for that I just thought oh, well, she was strangled,

(24:51):
so it was like a quick death. And maybe he
was just talking like about the cause of death. Although
I guess my mother's mother knew the cause of death.
So ah, I don't know why would like, yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
Can you help me out? Because this is something we
see in true crime. We see with these families where
there's a murder in the family, and I know that
with your father's family, they all rush to help him
with his defense. Yeah, so there's some families.

Speaker 5 (25:27):
Can you hear a dog like chewing on a bone,
and there's a dog kind of noisily chewing on a bone.

Speaker 6 (25:32):
If you can hear it a little bit, a little bit,
a little bit, it's okay, it's okay, it's it's just
adds adds texture, it just adds realness.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
We have three dogs.

Speaker 5 (25:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
So my question is what we see in families, or
what I see is some people and families will shut
down for however long it is, no matter how much
evidence and how many years go by, they will stubbornly
refuse to accept it, and just the shame of it

(26:11):
is too much. They can't accept that their their family
member is a killer. And they'll sometimes will spearhead their
innocence broad campaign. And then other times there's a you know,
there's a moment when when they sort of everything changes,

(26:35):
so they believe them up to a bit because it's
the family that you have. You've lost a family member
and it's the only you know, the closest family member
to you. You don't want to lose that. So you
despite the over despite the things that are making you know,

(26:55):
making you go, you know, eyebrows raise, you'll still believe them,
still stand behind them. What was the real moment for
you and how did that change? And what is your
take Sarah too, I'd like to hear your your thoughts.
What is your take on the psychology of family members
of murderers and what what are the kind of feelings

(27:18):
that you go through, you know, in in in wanting
to believe them, in in the kind of ah, I
don't know, and it you know, what do you what
do you move through to get to where you are now?

Speaker 5 (27:39):
No, that's really interesting and it is, Uh, cognitive dissonance
is like I think, very powerful, like what you're describing
like my own personal experience. But yeah, you're like, uh,
family members where there is overwhelming evidence like this and

(28:01):
they still are in denial, and I think it's I mean,
they could be helping to cover up, like because of
the shame, but I think often it's like it is
genuine denial. Uh, And I think, oh, so that's about

(28:22):
for me. Well, like for me, I think I kind
of like fluctuated in and out of denial. As there
was an incident the last time I saw him, I

(28:42):
did accuse him of it, and he said it wasn't
his fault. Oh the dog's back with the bone. But
so I'm answering the question and a lot of people
ask that, uh, like.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
It was there there. It was a gradual process, and
I think there's.

Speaker 5 (29:13):
Still I mean, he's he's absolutely guilty. But just to like,
ah and Sarah was there for this, like just to
give you an a that there must be a little
still part of me that's in denial because the lead
prosecut sorry lead detective wrote to me, the case is solved,

(29:35):
we just need like prosecutor who will take it. And
then this is just like a couple of weeks ago,
and I showed Sarah and I was like, oh my god,
he did it, Like there was.

Speaker 1 (29:44):
Still part of me like that felt must have felt.

Speaker 5 (29:52):
Even though intellectually and I want justice from my mother,
I you know, I I feel generally like that does
I feel like one hundred percent certain that he's guilty.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
But it is interesting that.

Speaker 5 (30:11):
Like that was still my response when she like, Wow,
the lead detective is this certain? And I was kind
of like, holy, he actually did it. And I showed
thereah the email and she was like, well, yeah, we
we knew that. Uh, but it wouldn't have struck me

(30:31):
as meaningful if there wasn't a little part of me
that's still, don't you think, I mean just psychologically, I
was almost like struck by scent that.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:43):
So, especially since they went through through such great pains,
maybe you could talk about how they how John Kecker,
your father's high priced attorney who's still uh looms large
with influence in the legal field, still having after retirement,

(31:04):
still having articles written about him in major publications. How
he victim blamed what we call victim blaming. It really
put the blame on your mother and smeared her reputation
and her mental health. Can you talk about that a
little bit?

Speaker 1 (31:25):
Sure?

Speaker 5 (31:26):
So, yeah, my father, so my my father's sister. It
was like a very successful lawyer, and she wasn't a criminal.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
Def she is mostly like corporate.

Speaker 5 (31:43):
But and I I wonder, like I don't resent this
in her I know when I tell people this, they
feel like I must resent it.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
I don't, like I've.

Speaker 5 (31:57):
Come to and I really do love my aunt Anne.
So she's like been loving in many ways to me,
and I think she knows he's guilty and we just
agreed anyway, So she implied that.

Speaker 3 (32:15):
Some of the inheritance stuff was I forgot to tell
you about this. But when she was talking to me,
she almost implied that it was like because of your
mother's death or something like. She was like she was
just talking about like oh like because like she didn't
say because like you're grand just.

Speaker 5 (32:29):
Saw her this week.

Speaker 3 (32:30):
Yeah, yeah, But she was saying like like when there's
a death in the family and people are left to
care for themselves, it's like the rest of the family's
job to care for them. So like she was essentially saying, like,
because your mother died and you were sort of left alone,
like that was why, Like that's why she like that
is part of her thinking when she's being very like,

(32:53):
I don't know, generous and caring towards us, I think,
which also kind of that's which also kind of implies that,
like you know, like because like you still technically have
your dad who's her brother, right, Like that's that's her
immediate family.

Speaker 5 (33:12):
She was always consistent and like she liked my mother
and she thought it was a tragedy, whereas my father says,
it is the best thing could have happened to me.
So like, just to play Devil's advocate, I don't I
do think she thinks she's guilty because she's seen all
the evidence. I can kind of like go into that,

(33:33):
but I don't really think that that necessarily means Oh,
just was she saying I was like left all alone?

Speaker 1 (33:44):
Or does she just mean like I didn't have a mother,
and so she.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
Was basically saying that, like you didn't have anyone to
like take care of you.

Speaker 5 (33:51):
I think, oh, yeah, well she knows he's a jerk
as well as being.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
But so too. Was she the one who goes him
that lawyer? Is that the connection? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (34:02):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (34:02):
So back to ninetty two, Uh, she she came out
to San Francisco. Immediately, I think, like, you know, if
you imagine this, she gets a call like Nancy's been murdered,
and especially with this denial we're just talking about. I

(34:23):
imagine her my she didn't think he was guilty. You know,
she didn't know any of the evidence, just like Nancy's
been found like murdered, strangled, and Pat's been arrested. In fact,
her husband, I think, like put together the bond money
for Yeah, Pat was I do remember he was gone
like a couple of days and then you know he

(34:44):
was back anyway, So and even though she had at
the time, like a two year old, she like she
came out and she spent several weeks, like if I
remember correctly extended. I remember her like talking to her
little two year old, like on the phone.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
So that's just uh.

Speaker 5 (35:06):
Anyway, she put together his defense team, including John Kecker. Well,
John Cacker was the lead defense and he is, yeah,
extremely powerful. He's he's represented like h Nancy Pelosi's husband.
Just not that I like nothing. I like, I don't

(35:29):
get political.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
I'm not trying.

Speaker 5 (35:31):
I'm not saying anything about like I'm just trying to
like indicate the extent of his power and connections. I'm
not it's not a commentary about like Nancy Pelosi. I
don't want to like imply that my political No.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
I just think I mean he's connected. No, he's it's
connected with the big wigs. And was just I mean,
I just say, yea interview with him. You know, he's
eighty one and he's still giving interviews. He's still he's
fighting Trump. Some kind of change that Trump wants to

(36:07):
make in our legal field. I didn't fully understand it.
I'd have to read it again and exactly to understand
how he's changing it. But so he's still very active.
But did your aunt mean that to mean that that
your mother's gone and we have to take care of
the living, and that you needed a father, So she

(36:30):
took care of your father because you needed a father.
I mean, that's sort of the way I'm saying it.
I don't know what you do, think, Sarah.

Speaker 3 (36:41):
I think what she was saying was really that she
wanted to take care of like like my mom, like Alison,
because otherwise, like I mean, it was like the context
was like we was talking about like her will and stuff, and.

Speaker 5 (36:58):
She was her will, Orson's will, both both of them.

Speaker 3 (37:02):
Because she was saying that Jason's will the context.

Speaker 5 (37:04):
He recently died, he was a cancer. He was only
such younger than me. He's he's a lawyer as well,
forty one. So, like he did leave some inheritance to
uh well, I think actually maybe the majority of charity.
But he didn't have kids himself anyway. Yeah, so that's
what Sarah was talking about, Like he did leave money.

Speaker 3 (37:25):
To, but she was saying that like his will was
modeled after hers and that like he had understood the
like the sentiment that because there was like a death
in the family. But like she wasn't like she was
talking about leaving like pat money. She was talking about like, oh.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
Yeah, they didn't, yeah, Jason, like pat money.

Speaker 3 (37:46):
Yeah. So I think she was like literally talking about
like supporting my mom because she had one parent who
was dead and one parent who was She wouldn't say
this obviously, but like a murderer.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
To give you an idea of John Kecker, his lawyer
told the Examiner at the time this is back in
nineteen eighty two, that his client Patrick had passed a
lie detector test. This was sound familiar to those of
people who follow my channel and wanted to help police
find the true murderer.

Speaker 5 (38:28):
Yeah, he never spoke to the police the Yeah, I
saw that article. Like as an adult, I asked the
police it was not ministered by the police. He never
took litector refused to speak to them. And yeah, that
is that was like even before OJ. That's like the
OJ the True Killer ojuh sentiment.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yeah, they do that, they hire their own light detector.
They've done it. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (38:56):
I think it was something like, yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
They get a favorable lie detector tester to come in.
Woody Allen did this.

Speaker 5 (39:10):
I mean it said, you know, they're not amissible in court,
so that says a lot. I was told that as
a like Anne did tell me that. I didn't realize
that it wasn't administered by the police. I assumed it
was ministered by the police, and I know it wasn't.
At some point in adulthood I realized, you know, I

(39:32):
heard this not a missible in court. Although I that
was you know, when I'm kind of weighing the evidence
in my mind, that did that did seem meaningful. I
no longer think that's meaningful knowing uh uh. But yeah, sorry,
going back to like the original John Kecker because I
think that's important. Oh and my aunt so apparently her

(39:56):
husband said she would call. This just gives a sense
of actually, my denial kind of fluctuated. She would call,
she would she call him every night. She had, you know,
a two year old, and she apparently would say, oh
my god, he did it, uh this, And then the
next day she call and say like, oh, no, no,

(40:16):
he couldn't have done like he couldn't her own brother
couldn't have done something like that. So but she told Jason,
actually the her son who became a lawyer, who was
referring to because Jason told me, I mean, I know
this is not a missible in court.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
This is like hearsaying, but that.

Speaker 7 (40:35):
She she like indicated that was She told Jason that
was like the hardest part of her life was representing
Pat and she doesn't even she's not even sure that
he's innocent.

Speaker 5 (40:51):
So we like I I there there was a period
like for a number of months after I thought he
was s guilty years ago, when I resent to that
she represented him, and then we just agreed.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
Not to talk about the topic.

Speaker 5 (41:06):
And uh, whereas other people in the like my father's
other sister, like I'm the black sheep for uh suspecting my.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
Father suspecting I would say it's a little bit more
in Yeah.

Speaker 5 (41:22):
Yeah, but see Gail's not she's not a lawyer, she's
not maybe as familiar with evidence. I think she even
cares more about well, they both care about reputation. In fact,
the last time I talked to Anne about it, when
I like had this kind of more like confrontation, she
said she did feel such shame that when she like

(41:45):
went back to her law firm, like her colleagues were
even commenting, Oh, your brother got into real trouble in
San Francisco, and uh I told her then, like you
shouldn't feel shame. I mean, I I still feel shame,
Like I totally get that, but uh you know, I said,
like that's something he did, you shouldn't feel shame. And

(42:08):
she's like, oh, well, let's just pretend he's dead. She said,
Uh so this like indicates how she deals with the
cognitive dissonance. And then she's even said like maybe he
is dead, he's not dead, like in fact, speaking of Jason,
like he came across the country for Jason's funeral, and
so yeah, I saw him there, Yeah, Sarah saw Yeah, she.

Speaker 3 (42:30):
Didn't go because he was there, but my siblings and
I my dad went.

Speaker 5 (42:36):
But Yeah, so I keep going off on tangents and
jumping around chronologically, but yeah, back to Kecker, because I
do think that's really important for like how he got off.
I mean, he hasn't been tried, so like there's no
Stashu limitations. He can still and that's what we're hoping
for Kecker. Like keck rate is probably I mean, not

(43:03):
this is I'm not saying this. There was inflation and
all that, but like Kecker's the rate that he and
he did just recently retire, like he would have easily
been charging over one thousand dollars an hour to give
you a sense of like it was an expensive.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
Nineteen eighty two.

Speaker 5 (43:20):
Oh, I mean I don't know what the hourly. I
know that Pat spent at least one hundred thousand dollars
on the defense in nineteen eighty two, because like I
did hear that as a kid, and just like knowing
lawyers fees and his prominence, he was easily making over

(43:45):
one thousand when like so it was probably the equivalent
of that when in nineteen eighty two, you know, hundreds
of dollars an hour, where's other lawyers? Maybe we're charging
eight dollars an hour. Then I don't know, but like
I just, I just he's very expensive. He I can't
believe that they're allowed to do this. He donated. As
a criminal defense lawyer, he can donate to like the

(44:08):
DA political campaign Like that seems like such a conflict
of interest, but.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
He did.

Speaker 5 (44:18):
He donated to these political campaigns, and then he advocates
for his client to have like charges dropped. He said, like, oh,
Alison needs at least one parent. About my mother, she
had read, like you know, in the autopsy, she had
like freshly manicured nails they were read, and then so

(44:39):
that was interpreted as like she was promiscuous.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
And they also went after her mental health and said.

Speaker 5 (44:48):
To yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, she was like very anxious
and depressed then but h yuh, she was like being
abused by her husband and like anyone would be. And
she hadn't been like previously, like in year's prior diagnose

(45:11):
and even if she did, like even if she didn't
kill herself, so the mental health isn't relevant. Uh, And
but yeah, they're just trying to dehumanize her. Like my
father said to me phone call, if she had lived,
I would have been so he didn't use words like

(45:34):
promiscuous or like sex work or like more respectful words.
He as like a five year old. He told me, like, oh,
a serial killer who's killing prostitutes probably killed her, and
you know, just disparaging her that the or as a
drug dealer because she was taking drugs. I in this

(45:57):
police recorded phone call, you know, like as a kid,
I just thought of drugs as like a general I
basically I don't know if I kind of realized the
different categories of drugs. And I asked him, because I'd
never actually asked him in that what drugs are you
like talking about? And he said, Oh, I don't know. Marijuana.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
It's a taco party us for the munchies. They all
have the munchies, right.

Speaker 5 (46:22):
Yeah. She did actually have in her diary a description
of like smoking marijuana and like one time, but like
the fact that she wrote in detail, well, she said,
so she.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
Went to Berkeley.

Speaker 5 (46:37):
She'd gone to Berkeley, she referred to in her diary like,
oh I did try marijuana in college and like I
didn't like it.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
My friend was really stressed.

Speaker 5 (46:46):
She wanted to uh smoke a joint with me, and
I did.

Speaker 1 (46:53):
But this was like a single incident, like she's not.

Speaker 5 (46:57):
Oh and in fact, uh, well anyway, so, but but
I mean, just the idea, there's just so many things
wrong with him saying like I would be a druggie,
as though like having my mother murdered or I don't
know if it's even worse, but he was, you know,

(47:18):
Initially the narrative was that she had abandoned me, as
though that wouldn't drive me to like substance use disorders
more than having a mother that smoked marijuana.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
Don't do that.

Speaker 5 (47:30):
She's about to. Don't do it though, I just was
about to go to college. She's on Sunday, Sarah's Sarah's
going to Yale. I'm expeaking to my kind of in
denial about that, don't I was about to say, like, oh,
it's no big it's a big deal. Don't do that.

Speaker 1 (47:49):
It's Gateway drugs.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
Well what I was what I was gonna say, is like,
not only is this was this narrative fed to like
the public and like the judge or whatever, right, but
that's the only narrative that my mom got. She got
this narrative that like it was never proposed to her
that like her dad had actually committed murder or that

(48:11):
even like like I'm sure you inferred that that was
what was going on, you know, but.

Speaker 5 (48:15):
No, I didn't really infer it, Like I just had
these snapshots of like I always felt like weird about
the uncle pat.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
Uh No, but.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
Like I'm not saying you inferred that he had committed murder,
but you inferred that was going on, that there was
a murder trial on your dad.

Speaker 4 (48:32):
With a suspect, right.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
Oh, No, I didn't know that he was.

Speaker 5 (48:37):
Like the thing about being out on bail, the charge
of being dropped, I was not aware of that, like
they I uh, in fact, like they didn't even tell me.
They told me about being let me let one of
the dogs just scratching at the door, about being arrested, Like.

Speaker 3 (48:56):
But yeah, I mean so if you're thinking about cognitive dissonance,
like they're like, she didn't even have two narratives to
pick from, and then it was it's obviously easy to
pick the one where your dad isn't a murderer, right,
Like so even if she'd been given two narratives, that
was like that were like one your dad murdered your mom,
two somebody else murdered your mom and your dad is innocent, right,

(49:20):
It's easier to pick the one that's like, oh, the
person like my father is a good person, he's not
a murderer. And but like she didn't even have that option.
The only option was that he had done nothing wrong
and he was innocent, and like that was what.

Speaker 5 (49:35):
The one in your life.

Speaker 3 (49:37):
Yeah, I was the only narrative that anyone in your
life fed you.

Speaker 5 (49:40):
Yeah, and like I did idolize my father. I was
actually terrified he would die. Uh, just like when you
lose I think a parent suddenly. That was just like
a constant worry. And you know we were, well there
was his uncle Pat Person, but like didn't see him,

(50:01):
so like there wasn't I don't have any siblings. My
mother didn't have any siblings, She didn't have people advocating.
Her father died in college, so there there was like
literally no family unless you were talking to his uncle
Pat Person, which he wasn't in our live which was
why the whole thing was so weird. But you know,

(50:21):
everyone else was like he's originally from Minnesota. Family in Minnesota,
like his sisters were on the East coast. You know,
my cousin's on the east coast, so ah, and I
just compartmentalized. And also because he disparaged her every time

(50:42):
I asked about her, I didn't ask that much because
I just would, Uh.

Speaker 2 (50:51):
I hear the cognitive dissonance is just a really it's
like a state of hell. This is my friend was
talking about with me like that. It's it's the it's
a really uncomfortable feeling. Uh did you experience it that way?

Speaker 5 (51:13):
Yeah? It was really uh answer it Wasley's question. I
just I sorry, I haven't really been looking at the
I just saw was least the.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
Yeah, there was like uh torment.

Speaker 5 (51:32):
It's actually maybe in a way less torturous to be
didn't have definitive opinion then to fluctuate in it because
I felt guilty. I felt like such a bad daughter
because I couldn't uh well, I idolized him as a

(51:54):
little kid, but then like as and he was like
physically abusive with me. But again, like I could part
mentalized that and I thought that was normal, but like
I became kind of less and less comfortable with him,
but I felt guilty for that.

Speaker 3 (52:15):
He was very physically abusive and then and then sent
her to like boarding school when she was twelve, So
like that was the only, like really that was the
only version of him that you knew, I mean other
than I guess when you're when you were like very
very young.

Speaker 5 (52:31):
Yeah, And I came to I came home during the holidays,
and like he was, he continued to be. I mean,
it was less abusive because I was less I mean,
it's less frequent because I wasn't there as much. But uh, yeah,
he's such a victim, he like, uh yeah, he's just

(52:53):
that's another thing. He feels like a victim in all
in every way.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
Yeah, right, he takes the he takes he we were.
It's like every murderer we talk about on this channel,
they take the victim role. They claim victimhood. It's not unusual, right,
I mean, wow, so how does he claim victimhood?

Speaker 5 (53:18):
Just like scenarios? Okay, this is basically unrelated to her
my mother's murder, but just like it popped into my
head about talking about boarding school.

Speaker 1 (53:29):
So he like didn't have a job for.

Speaker 5 (53:34):
He basically well except for a very brief stint when
I was an adult, and he like blamed me for that.
He said, oh, because I was taking I was so
devoted too, is taking care of you, I couldn't have
a job. And and then I was like, but I
was in boarding school.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
Out of it.

Speaker 5 (53:52):
He's like, oh, I wrote he did write me a
letter every day, and.

Speaker 1 (53:58):
I didn't ask first of I didn't for that.

Speaker 5 (54:00):
And like writing a letter, even writing a letter every
day is doesn't preclude employment.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
He couldn't do that on his lunch hour or after
work or yeah, that was it was a full letter
writing was a full time job.

Speaker 5 (54:18):
Apparently he was fired for this is my my mother's
diary working for like investment consulting AH for social reasons
and this would have been like late seventies early He

(54:42):
then he, uh, that wasn't his last job. But I
just think that's interesting. Yeah, that's what the neighbors said,
like they you know, they uh found they didn't understan
stand why my they really liked my mother and why

(55:04):
she was with a loser like Pat is what I saw,
Like one of the statements, he was like, he literally
this is why I felt guilty. He literally had nobody
likes him. He literally has no friends. I think, yeah,
if you lack empathy, that does not Let's not conduce

(55:30):
him to friendships or any kind of relationships. But yeah,
with the's question, Yes, uh, the original investigators are still alive.
They said they're haunted by this case. They they're happy
it's getting attention again, and yeah, they think about it often.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
And what it was so interesting?

Speaker 1 (56:01):
You know.

Speaker 2 (56:02):
That he said that your mother's murder was the best
thing that ever happened to you. He would tell you.
But as soon as he basically could send you away,
he sent you away. I mean he he I mean,
this was murder was done in the middle of a
custody battle, so he seemed to I mean, my interpretation

(56:25):
correct me if I'm wrong, so wrong. Interpretation is that
he wanted to win this custody battle, and he wins it,
and then as soon as he can, he relinquishes his
you know, as soon as I know. It's many years later,
but it would be a little hard to send you
away at seven and eight. As soon as he can,

(56:46):
he sends you away.

Speaker 5 (56:48):
Yeah, speaking of the custody battle, there was also he
made statements to my mother, I'll kill you before you
get Allison.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
He was like a very.

Speaker 5 (57:03):
Controlling, possessive person. I mean, maybe that goes without saying
or that's ah, but yeah, I don't so the boarding school.
I can tell you, like why he says he sent
me to boarding school.

Speaker 3 (57:23):
Keep in mind, the whole time that she was in
boarding school, he was telling her that he was paying
for it, when in reality, her grandmother, her mom's mom
was paying for it, right, Like she paid for a
large like portion of your boarding school fees.

Speaker 5 (57:39):
Yeah, my mom's mom was giving like money every year,
like the gift allowance.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
And yeah, they're asking about emailing the DA. Can you
talk about that?

Speaker 5 (57:56):
Uh yes, yes, can we put up the email? Yes,
this is okay, this is uh yeah, this I'm so
grateful for. I thought it was hopeless, like before being

(58:17):
embraced by this YouTube community and members suggested, uh, because
the evidence is so overwhelming that uh yeah, they actually
started writing letters emails, uh Rosemary Maya, Carrie even before

(58:44):
oh Judy from a legal focus and to oh, John
Lewin suggested, I did talk to John lun about this.
He's a hero. I love him so much. Uh render No, yeah,
Recorda knows John Lewinwell.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
You know what I'm talking about. The Robert Durst prosecutor.

Speaker 4 (59:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (59:09):
Anyway, he suggested reaching out to Morris Maya, who is
pretty senior. So the structure is this is San Mateo. Oh,
this is so they living in San Francisco. Her body
was found in you know, in the Bay, but like
in the jurisdiction of Foster City, which only gets like
one murder every decade, so like in a sense that's

(59:35):
and San Mateo County is like separate from San Francisco anyway.
Uh yeah, So there's the DA, which is this person
Wags mister Wagstaff, Stephen Wagstaff. But originally we were contacting
Morris Maya, who is like at the there's Wagstaff the DA.

(59:58):
Then there's like Depth D his deputy chief, a woman,
and then there's like three or four people the next level,
which he is and I think the titles like Morris
Maya's it has actually assistant DA, but like he has
he's appointed a prosecutor Luke, a homicide prosecutor.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
Mors Maya.

Speaker 5 (01:00:20):
Oh oh, I'm just like explaining that because uh yeah, yeah,
wag Stuff is the DA, wag Stuff is the day.

Speaker 3 (01:00:31):
Wag Stuff is the DA, and then Morris Maya is
like two levels below him.

Speaker 5 (01:00:34):
Basically, Yeah, I'm just kind of explaining for people that
have been emailing.

Speaker 3 (01:00:39):
But Morris Maya is like convinced, so yeah, yeah, that's why.
That's why. Yeah, And the person that is holding up
moving forward with the process is wag Staff or wag
Staff or someone that wag stuff is in charge of.
We don't really know who.

Speaker 5 (01:00:54):
Well, Morris Maya called me and like he didn't say
you need to start writing email to Wagstaff, but because
I don't think he would consider he is trying to
hold like cards close to the best, but yeah, he
is utterly convinced. He wants to file charges. He's appointed.

(01:01:16):
Actually someone below him, who is himself has experienced. Lucas King,
a homicide prosecutor. They've been working on it, going through
the file. Oh my gosh, there's this leads lead detective.
She it wasn't on the radar, which is why I'm

(01:01:37):
so grateful, Like, uh, they you know, it's like new
generation of prosecutors, detective when they when Jenna started reading
the file, she couldn't believe how much overwhelming evidence. I mean,
same with Morris Maya. I don't know what is the
issue with Wagstaff.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
Exactly, but how can people help help people.

Speaker 5 (01:02:03):
Writing to wag Staff And it can even just be
a sentence like Nancy Gavanni deserves justice or an attempted justice,
like you know, to file charges. That's like the next
step and wag Staff needs to approve.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
That happening.

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
Yeah, right, so they're asking you please please prosecute the
murder of Nancy Nancy Glvanni, the murderer of Nancy Galvanni,
or move towards prosecuting right.

Speaker 5 (01:02:46):
Yeah, or like you don't even yeah, I mean some
people for me amazing emails. I don't want to, like,
I don't want anyone to feel like it's daunting. So
even just a sentence, and you can say as much
as you like about the evidence or about how you

(01:03:07):
feel about the case, but like have the courage to
attempt justice at least like the prosecution. The I don't
see how a jury wouldn't find him guilty, but I

(01:03:27):
think maybe there's some consideration. This hasn't really been said
to me. I know it's not the way Morris Maya
feels or the lead detective. But because my father is
old now that may be a consideration for Wagstaff, which
I don't think. I don't think that should be at all.

(01:03:49):
I mean, you know, don Lewin he prosecuted Robert Durst.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
I just see like before he died, right.

Speaker 5 (01:03:58):
Yeah, like this is this is like the last chance
for accountability. He has longevity in his family, so and
he's healthy now apparently, uh so I do think like
he would he probably has at least a few more

(01:04:19):
years left, and he deserves, you know, this should be
some accountability. And the fact that yeah, it's been more
than forty years without a prosecution, like that's him evading
justice and having forty years of freedom that he didn't deserve,
doesn't deserve. So that's my perspective on him being.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
Older now.

Speaker 3 (01:04:44):
Uh yeah. And and and these emails to wag Staff
really are vital because I think my mom was sort
of explaining this, but Maya basically said, like make sure
that you email wag Staff, Like the more emails that
wag Staff gets, the better. And previously, I think when

(01:05:04):
we were having people email like the prosecutor not necessarily
necessarily da, So Wagstaff hasn't actually gotten a lot of
these emails from before.

Speaker 5 (01:05:12):
These were mostly like yeah, yeah, they were sent to
Morris Maya and he's like completely on board, so like
I mean, there's no harm and also including him but
the person that needs to be swayed. Oh and Morris
Maya said that wag Staff does care about victims and
he does care about like public.

Speaker 1 (01:05:34):
Ah opinion.

Speaker 5 (01:05:36):
And yeah, the lead detective mentioned like, well, these are
political the DA is like a political position. They want
to win cases. But apparently Wagstaff is a good guy
who does these emails do make a difference. I mean,
it's it's in a way, it's sad that because like,

(01:05:58):
all victims deserve justice. And I'm so grateful that my
mother is finally getting advocacy. She she didn't have that advocacy.
She didn't have any siblings, her father was dead, nobody
was advocating for her. Like it took me growing up
and realizing, oh my gosh, he's guilty to start advocating.

(01:06:22):
So this is like the first time, even though everyone
around him thinks he's guilty, this is like the first
time she's really had this support from the public. So
it's been instrumental. I'm just I'm so grateful to you
all because yeah, it went from me like literally having

(01:06:42):
no optimism, no hope, to being fairly optimistic in that
there is a prosecutor who wants to file charges lead detective.

Speaker 1 (01:06:55):
Yeah, I get it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:56):
So yeah, I think, I mean you can just say.
You know what I said is I said. I'm writing
to encourage you to move forward in the investigation and
prosecution of uh of Nancy Galvani's murderer. Nancy's family and
friends deserve to see the justice they were robbed of

(01:07:17):
for so many years. Please do everything in your power
to see that justice is done. Ah you know best,
blah blah blah. I mean, you know, Sarah wrote a beautiful,
beautiful uh letter, but you know, not all of us.
Can you know, be so be so in our in

(01:07:42):
our emails. So it's yeah, the message is most important.
Rosemary rights. It's time for District Attorney wax Aff. Thank
you Rosemary for your support.

Speaker 5 (01:07:56):
Yeah, thank you Rosemary.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
Justice for Nancy now just just delayed. Justice denied. Let Alison, Sarah, Evan,
and Emily get the justice they deserve. Nancy was murdered
at the ends of domestic violence. True.

Speaker 5 (01:08:12):
In terms of investing, oh, thank you so much for
your crime. Wife. And in terms of investigation, the investigation
is basically complete. So uh, this is what I've heard.
Like I think initially we're advocating for like you know, investigation,

(01:08:33):
but at this point it's just charges. Apparently like they
think they have these the Morris Maya, we detective her,
all of all of the police department apparently are like
passionate about this case now and they feel the investigation
is complete and is really strong evidence. So it is

(01:08:56):
down to charges. And yeah, he's he's still alive. He's
aware now that he's being looked at again. Uh, he's
living on knob Hill in San Francisco, not under his

(01:09:21):
own name, and he's like a PO box number, but anyway,
they they know where he is.

Speaker 2 (01:09:37):
So let's see Allison. Okay, wait, I think Maestra had
a question, Sarah, did you wait, hold on, hold on
one second. Let me go backwards a little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:09:49):
About whether I thought that the that like this prosecution
would happen when I was young. Yes, yeah, yeah, I
mean I definitely, like I've known. I can't remember not
knowing that like my grandfather killed my grandmother.

Speaker 5 (01:10:09):
But oh my gosh, I remember you said about you
were watching the Lion King and you said to me,
because this isn't like the father killed the or something.

Speaker 3 (01:10:17):
The father kills the brother.

Speaker 5 (01:10:19):
And you said, that's like you and I did. Wasn't
even like you were like three years old.

Speaker 3 (01:10:24):
I don't really have that at all.

Speaker 5 (01:10:27):
And I was like, I didn't know that you had
like really absorbed the full story at that point. So
I mean they say in terms of like, uh, this
psychologist in terms of like child development about these like
traumatic things like don't lie to the kids, like don't
over share, but also don't lie to them so because

(01:10:48):
then at some point they're going to find out the truth.
So like for any of the questions like that, Sarah
or like the other kids asked, you know, I answered honestly.
So anyway, sorry, I am.

Speaker 3 (01:11:00):
As to remember. When I was in I think like
late elementary school, I read your book because I don't
know how I had a copy of it, but I
think she shared what was like a draft of her
book with me for some reason, Like I I had
it somehow, so I read her whole, her whole book
that she like autobiography that she's working on. Yeah, when

(01:11:21):
I was younger.

Speaker 5 (01:11:22):
I know, I didn't really.

Speaker 3 (01:11:23):
Expect I think you shared it with me just in case.

Speaker 5 (01:11:26):
But yeah, I was like, if I die, and if
I the.

Speaker 1 (01:11:31):
Kids don't worry about me dying.

Speaker 5 (01:11:33):
That's just something that But I was like, I, you know,
she's like an excellent writer. I was like, uh, I
you know, if you want to publish this memoir, I
wanted Sarah to have and Jeff, my husband, to like,
I still want to publish the memoir is still important
to me. So yeah, I wanted, like you guys to

(01:11:58):
have a copy in the same way it's like want
you to have a copy of my will kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:12:02):
But I didn't.

Speaker 5 (01:12:04):
I didn't realize that you like knew about Google docs,
and I think I shared it as a Google doc.
So I was kind of surprised that you read. I
don't know if you have the latest version, but yeah,
that you had read though.

Speaker 3 (01:12:17):
Yeah, I have a pretty had a pretty recent version.
But I remember, like somehow kind of knowing that you
had been in legal disputes with your father before, because
I think you had some shared property like like he's
really drawn out like terrible legal disputes about shared property

(01:12:38):
and like what and like getting like money that was
essentially hers.

Speaker 5 (01:12:42):
That he was trying to take out loans in my name. Yeah,
just like like all and then bailed on them. So
then I was, yeah, it's just like all the financial
stuff is like there.

Speaker 3 (01:12:53):
Was a ton of like legal stuff that you were
involved in. And I think that I sort of thought
that you'd like sued him before or something like. I
like I knew that you'd been legally involved with him before.
But I think that my perspective was sort of that, like,
you'd gotten as much as you thought you could get,
and I never expected you to.

Speaker 5 (01:13:15):
Well, when you're saying like get out of he was
like sucking out of me.

Speaker 3 (01:13:19):
Yeah, So I didn't like betrieved what she could you know.

Speaker 5 (01:13:25):
Yeah, like his condo association that came after me because
he did evade like subpoenas and there it was in
my name technically because I was like hoodwinked into Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:36):
Anyway, Yeah, that.

Speaker 3 (01:13:37):
Was just like and like he had control over her
money until she was like I don't know, over like
until she was dating my dad, so like all kinds
of stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:50):
Yeah, he was doing my taxes.

Speaker 5 (01:13:52):
Yeah, it made me feel that, Well I could read
you that Jeff's email actually has the financial narrative.

Speaker 3 (01:14:01):
Yeah. But anyways, so he had like a lot of
like financial control over her, and I knew that there
was legal stuff going on with that but I think
that I thought, I don't know. I think I thought
that you had at the time. I didn't really know how,
like I don't know the law worked, but I think
I knew that he was accused when you were much younger,
and that the charges were dropped. And I think I

(01:14:22):
thought you sued him over your mother's death, which isn't
doesn't really make.

Speaker 5 (01:14:29):
It so that but civil There was civil action, but
the judge said, like for wrongful death, there was a
two year statute.

Speaker 3 (01:14:38):
Yeah, and then I remember that the statute of limitations.

Speaker 5 (01:14:41):
Was not I mean, there isn't for like criminal.

Speaker 3 (01:14:46):
So I think, yeah, like you sued, so I guess
you sued him for wrongful death or something.

Speaker 5 (01:14:51):
He submitted to his insurance that she may have been
killed by ironic asphyxiation. He smitched the court and therefore
his household it should cover his legal fees because it
could have been an accident. Like to come up with
the oh my god, oh yeah, maybe you don't know that.

Speaker 3 (01:15:06):
I didn't know that.

Speaker 5 (01:15:07):
No, all that lawsuit didn't really involve me. He wassuming
his insurance company to cover his fees. But like the
idea that he came up with this erotic he lost.
I mean the judge, I saw the opinion. The judge
was like this, you're just saying erotica's fixiation exists. There's
nothing like even connecting the victim to well, I guess

(01:15:30):
she was asphixiated, but like there's no evidence that, right.

Speaker 3 (01:15:36):
So, Like I knew that you'd been like sort of
legally involved before, but I think I thought that that
was like a dead end, and I didn't really expect
this case to be opened back up, even when she
was getting really into true crime and she was watching
all this stuff about other people's cases or cold cases.
I wasn't really expecting. Like I knew that you sort

(01:15:58):
of found community there and that that was especially important
to you giving your father's murder, but I didn't really
connect it anyway to like the idea that you were
going to try to have him prosecuted and have your
cook like seek justice for your mother.

Speaker 5 (01:16:21):
Yeah. I didn't originally like this. The community is really
prompted it. But yeah, I as I was saying, the
second best thing is seeing other victims get justice.

Speaker 1 (01:16:33):
So there's a lot of.

Speaker 5 (01:16:34):
Coverage right now, and that I was about to start
don Aedelson, Uh, like the story of Dan's Boys like
really resonates with me. It's similar, very similar in a
number of ways. So that's just an example. Also seeing
like Robert Durst prosecuted, Uh that there were although there

(01:16:57):
were no kids involved with that, Like that resonated a
number of ways. But but you know what I see
like these prosecutions again and again, which I've said to
like Morris Maya and the lead investigator they agree with this,
that are successful with much less evidence. So I do.

Speaker 1 (01:17:17):
That is a little.

Speaker 5 (01:17:18):
Frustrating because I'm like, I, yeah, I just the prosecution
is overdue and there's is a lot of evidence.

Speaker 1 (01:17:30):
But yeah, I do.

Speaker 5 (01:17:31):
That's the second best thing is yes justice.

Speaker 2 (01:17:38):
So what do you I mean, what do you think?
I mean, what are the parallels between this case and
the Atosen case? For you?

Speaker 5 (01:17:46):
Oh? Yeah, there are a lot of parallels. Although it
was my my father did the dirty work, which in
a way is even more horrifying. But there was you know,
custody battle, this divorce, the one I mean, it is

(01:18:09):
pretty unusual to have one parent kill the other parent,
and uh that's what happened to Dan's boys. Well, I
fully believe that Wendy was involved and uh, you know
these these families, relatives that claim they're doing it for

(01:18:30):
the boys, like my father's was the best thing could
have happened to me. Like they're they they're doing it
for the well grant in terms of dance the grandkids
slash you know kids when it's the opposite, like if
you love your kids, even if you can't stand your

(01:18:51):
ex you tolerate them for the sake of your children
and completely narcissistic.

Speaker 1 (01:18:57):
I also suspect.

Speaker 3 (01:18:59):
Unless you're abusive or something.

Speaker 5 (01:19:01):
Yeah, and nobody even like even they the people, they
don't even I mean, there's much more disparaging of like
my mother than like, yeah, nobody even claims. Everyone acknowledges
that Dan, the victim, Dan Markel, uh was like a
devoted father, loving father, And no one's even like accused

(01:19:25):
any abuse of the kids. But uh yeah, maybe there's
some Uh there was something else I wanted to mention
with regard to the some similarity.

Speaker 2 (01:19:36):
There's another there's another case of of Howard Pillmer, the
murder of Howard Pillmer, where uh the same similar thing.
It looked like the wife was going to be getting
divorced from her husband and they had a son together
and she did. It was just reminds me a little

(01:19:57):
this case. There was something the babysitter noticed, something very
different about the way that she had to return the
child that night, the night he was murdered. And there's
always this kind of just very disparaging. It's not like
they can say, oh, it was a tragedy, he was
a great man. Always so disparaging towards the victim, either

(01:20:22):
privately or personally. One of the reasons the killers got
caught in the Howard Pillmark case is that they were
taking down, you know, wanted posters off of New York streets,
you know, just taking them down, and they had them
on It's really interesting. It's on Netflix, New York Homicide.
It's one of I think it's episode five, fascinating case,

(01:20:45):
but very similar to the Adelson's. He was a jerk.
Everyone looks, you know, Don Aedelson is says, you know,
people are talking about Dan Markel like a beloved professor.
He was a jerk. It's not enough that they murdered him.
They have to murder their memory. They have to you know,
take the name from the kids. I mean, they just

(01:21:06):
want these the victim off the planet. Anything that they
can destroy and remove of their's you know, that's what
I see a bad pattern of that they will do.
So for your father to be saying to you that
you're lucky that your mother was murdered, that you were
robbed of a mother in this way is pretty telling

(01:21:28):
and pretty on, you know, pretty much in the pattern
of what we see in these cases. People are asking
forensic are ends saying why were the charges dropped? Kind
of a complicated question.

Speaker 5 (01:21:45):
Well, in the newspaper article, the DA at the time
said said something to the effect we're not saying for
a minute, he didn't do it. We're saying that we
think there is less than a fifty percent chance that
we would win a prosecution, which is our criteria for
going forward. And then like I think it was like

(01:22:06):
the police chief had a statement they totally disagreed with
that then use the word totally but and that he
should be tried by a jury of his peers. They
didn't understand the police was saying. They didn't understand why
he's not being true. I mean, like we think about
like the balance of evidence, and that's why my channels
called my father's alibi. I think people, uh did feel

(01:22:31):
I was his alibi. I mean they still overall, like
the investigators felt like he is. All this other evidence
like outweighs the alibi. But my father, that's John Kecker,
was claiming that. And you know, this was like an
apartment where it is the case that if they said, like, oh,

(01:22:55):
a murder, this murder couldn't have happened with like the
little girl there, she would have heard it, which is
true because you know it was a flat like you know,
moderate size for San Francisco, wasn't like a huge house
where that could be possible. But yeah, they didn't know
that he had sent me somewhere else.

Speaker 1 (01:23:13):
And and in.

Speaker 5 (01:23:16):
Fact, like what a similar incident that my mother did
a view as attempted murder. I was there like begging
him to stop because you know, I did hear it.
But so I think I don't fully know the answer
to that question. Those are.

Speaker 8 (01:23:36):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (01:23:37):
But now we have the police reported phone call as well,
where he admits all kinds of Oh, the recorded call
is absolutely admissible. I was actually talking to the more
smy about that. Yeah, there is I think if it
hadn't been done with the police in the Cowlfornia jurisdiction,

(01:24:02):
it wouldn't be admissible, but there's exceptions like would be
considered Well, I don't it wouldn't be admissible, but there's
exception like, oh, if it's recorded by the police, which
like I went to sam Mateo, I went to Foster
City to have the recorded phone call, like the police
were in the room with me, they were doing the recording.
It's I don't even have a copy of the recording.

(01:24:23):
I'm just like, all this is like from the memory
of the phone call that I've mentioned, like his admissions. Uh, yeah,
so that it would I think that's I said to
Morris Maya, like that's strong evident. He said, yeah, no,
it is strong evidence.

Speaker 2 (01:24:42):
It's not.

Speaker 5 (01:24:42):
It's not an outright confession, but he confirms the whole
thing about like meeting with uncle Pat, et cetera, et cetera.
He disparages her. He says, like, if this is so weird,
he almost said this like chuckle if he he was
planning to do it. He was going to do it

(01:25:04):
the next day, but someone beat him to it. He
says that in the recorded phone call.

Speaker 1 (01:25:14):
Yeah, so.

Speaker 5 (01:25:17):
That is additional evidence from beyond you know, nineteen eighty
two alibi. Yeah, oh you know in Dan Markel as well,
and there is focus on the custody. I think there
was also and in Wendy's case, like financial greed definitely

(01:25:41):
played a part in my father's motive and.

Speaker 2 (01:25:49):
And Wendy's motive. Yeah, Atolson's motive. Rosemary Ramera asked, did
the police conduct a search warrant during the first arrest?
Is that when they found and her yellow buick at
his home?

Speaker 3 (01:26:02):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:26:03):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5 (01:26:05):
Okay, So yeah, when they arrived, they did a search
war I mean, they did a search. They came to
the door. They said, well, you speak to us. He
said no, which's trying. And I think they asked can
we search? She said no, and then they're like, well
we have a search warrant. So yeah, they searched the house.

(01:26:28):
I saw the buick there, arrested him. You know, it
was a search of several hours, arrested him that day.

Speaker 1 (01:26:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:26:37):
Can I answer this for Rosemary? Ramera said, didn't Pat
lie about taking a lie detector testa pede it? So
what what these lawyers do, Rosemary? And I think it's
important so much of you know, my interest, of course,
is the innocence fraud in these cases. What they do
to convince the public that their client is in a

(01:27:00):
and is they get a defense friendly or an incompetent
either one, sometimes a little of both lie detector tests
that they know or they or they get a lie
detector a taker. I don't know what what would you

(01:27:21):
call that, administer minister yas Yeah, yeah, that that is
friendly to the defense, that would know the right questions
to ask to have the client beat it, and then
they put those out. For example, Woody Allen refused to
take the Connecticut police in his.

Speaker 5 (01:27:41):
In his.

Speaker 2 (01:27:43):
Abuse claim case of his adopted daughter Dylan uh and
then he but he hired right away a his defense
attorney hired right away one of these lie detector tests
to take for him to take, you know, the questions
he wants to answer or could pass. And they did

(01:28:04):
it also in the murder of Jody Jones. In other
another case, I talk about a Scottish case where Luke
Mitchell they had him pass a lie detector test and
put it out because it makes it look like it's
it's good, it's convincing. For the same reason Karen had

(01:28:26):
A had a federal investigation. It makes it look like
something the farius is going on even if they find nothing.
A federal investigation was started, doesn't matter why or how
it was started, it's just that there was one. It
makes it looks like something. So every every fraud is
making something look like something. It's not so for to

(01:28:49):
make a guilty person look innocent. That's how you do it.
You get a friendly And I would think John Kecker
did the same similar thing with your father.

Speaker 5 (01:28:57):
And they were paying like he was there expert. And
you know, even though the defense, I mean the prosecution
would have to hand over like all the evidence the
Brady statue to rule. I don't know if this just
as an example for but the defense doesn't have to

(01:29:19):
hand over anything. Like they could have done multiple LIGHTE
detector tests until he passed one and then they could
say he passed one. Also, he is although he has
a temper, he is like a very pragmatic person. And
I could sort of see that he would be pragmatic

(01:29:44):
and like rational enough if he told himself he would,
he would intelligent enough he would know, uh, like if
he's not nervous, he just needs to not be nervous
and like to pass the test or you know, he
thinks of a nervous thing when I guess they set
like a baseline so he would question.

Speaker 1 (01:30:06):
Yeah, yeah he would. Yeah, because they ask you like.

Speaker 2 (01:30:12):
High high intelligence in your family. He would know, you know,
he would. I'm sure he would figure out how to
pass it if if you know, even given a I mean,
did you worry about the kind of passing on these
kind of genes the murderer jeans or did you worry
about having this kind of maybe a psychopath or murderer

(01:30:34):
jeens in your making? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:30:37):
I did, Like, Uh, there is no escaping the reality
that I am the like biological child of a murder
and you know, his victim. And uh, and I like

(01:31:01):
we're talking about and like I look like his sister.
I mean I haven't been I I I'm you know,
I'm sure I'm his biological child. I mean I wish
I weren't. But but like and like Sarah is the

(01:31:21):
most empathic person. Uh, you're you're just like the opposite
of My mother was so different from him, Like she
was a social worker, she was gregarious and so at
least Uh, I guess I had a chance of inheriting

(01:31:43):
uh you know, the good genes for from her. And yeah,
but that is something that I do feel shame about.

Speaker 2 (01:31:58):
H Yeah, there's that chain that we yeah, that we
talk about in that So Sarah, what are you I mean,
what are your hopes and and what are your thoughts
about this case?

Speaker 3 (01:32:11):
I mean I agree with everything my mom's I think
that Nancy deserves justice. And I remember there was one
time that we were in the car together, like our
whole family is in the car together, and uh, my
and and my mom was talking about her mom and

(01:32:32):
she was saying like, oh, well, my mom used to
tell me that I would want that she would want.

Speaker 5 (01:32:37):
To meet her grandkids.

Speaker 3 (01:32:39):
And she still has certain things that her mom left behind.
She has like a bathroom from her mom. She has,
you know, certain items that were her mother's and she
was talking with those items and how she was going
to pass those on to us, And I had this
overwhelming sense that like, somehow, like I don't know, Nancy

(01:33:03):
like like could see us, like not literally, but like
had sort of a vision of like having grandchildren and
having a family like ours. And uh and my mom said,
doesn't it feel like she loves you?

Speaker 5 (01:33:19):
And I remember that was the.

Speaker 3 (01:33:23):
Perfect way to articulate exactly what I was thinking. Like
it almost felt like even though I've never met her
in my life, like I've never I was born, you know,
years and years after her death, but sometimes it does
feel like, you know, she would have loved us and
she would have been there for important moments in our lives.

(01:33:47):
And I think that and not just us, not just
our family, but her friends, you know, all of these
people that cared about her and that loved her, and
she would have contributed so much to them and to
the world because she, like my mom said, you know,
she was a social worker. She was a very empathetic person.
And it's tragic that her ex husband deprived not only

(01:34:11):
her of the rest of her life, but also the world,
her world of experiencing her for the rest of her life.
And I think that's tragic, and I think that she
deserves justice, and no one should ever be able to
do that to anyone else, to another person, or to

(01:34:34):
the people that care about them.

Speaker 2 (01:34:37):
I agree. I mean, these, you know, these are the
wounds that you know it can get better, but they
don't heal. These wounds they don't heal. And it's really
fascinating to talk to you, Sarah, you know how these
you know, the ripples. Effects of these murders go on,
pasted on from generation the next generation. So congratulations on

(01:35:03):
on Yale. That is exciting. What you're going what it's Monday?

Speaker 5 (01:35:10):
A tear right now?

Speaker 3 (01:35:11):
Who like, stop partic or YouTube?

Speaker 5 (01:35:14):
Hold on, I'll step away.

Speaker 3 (01:35:17):
Yeah, yeah, I'm going to I'm moving in on Sunday.

Speaker 2 (01:35:21):
So your mom taking you?

Speaker 3 (01:35:24):
Yeah yeah, my my my family's gonna go with me.
They'll help me move in. So that's exciting.

Speaker 2 (01:35:30):
You live nearby because your mom works there now.

Speaker 3 (01:35:33):
Yeah yeah, yeah, we live super nearby, so it won't
be a huge deal. If I forget anything, you can
always come back.

Speaker 2 (01:35:39):
I saw this video where this mom, I mean, I
don't know. I was I my friend dropped me off
at my first day at college, like I had very
very like my parents encouraged me to be very independent.
I guess I don't know. I saw this video where
this mom was like packing this trunk full of medication

(01:36:00):
for her daughter, and it was so over ott over
the top. Yeah, Like, here's the the medication. What is
it called where people have opiate overdoses. We're gonna pack
that in case anyone in the dorm room has an
opiate overdose. We're gonna pack that might all barf bags.

(01:36:21):
I'm like, barf bags are on a plane? Is this
is the college were medically s It was like this
huge drug. It was so foreign to me. But I
was like, but it's pretty smart to pack like some
asspirin some but you can, you know, get all that
stuff I've gotten.

Speaker 3 (01:36:38):
I have like a maybe a plastic bag of like
medications or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:36:43):
You come across that on social media, you'll know that
what I'm talking about. The mother plan B, like five
things a plan B. I was just like, oh my love,
some mother here prepared.

Speaker 3 (01:36:57):
But yeah, no, I defin really did not do.

Speaker 2 (01:36:59):
That Ellian mother. I'm like, who is what is this?
But that's pretty exciting. So did you have to fill
out a questionnaire about a roommate?

Speaker 3 (01:37:11):
Oh yeah, I filled out you know, all my sleep habits.
I filled out like how messy I am? When how social?
I want my dorm to be? All of that stuff.
And I got my roommate and I'm in a suite,
so I have a roommate. And then I also have
two suite mates that share.

Speaker 2 (01:37:28):
Room, the share the bathroom, or share the we have
a common means. Oh a common room. So yeah, wow,
so what is it like tiny?

Speaker 3 (01:37:40):
But we have a nice common room, Like your desks
don't fit in our rooms, but we have like a
nice common room with like we're gonna put the desks
in there and all that.

Speaker 2 (01:37:49):
Oh nice nice. Is it an old kind of building?
Do you know the building that you're in or.

Speaker 3 (01:37:55):
A lot of the buildings on Yelle's campus, or do
you old Although all of the or most of the
freshmen live in freshman housing that's where I'm living, which
are these kind of like old halls around what's called
Old Campus, which is basically just like a green in
the middle, like a giant courtyard in the middle of
all of these halls. And so most of the freshmen

(01:38:18):
live on in freshman housing. But then I've also been
assigned to a college, and my college is where I
live sophomore, junior, and senior year.

Speaker 1 (01:38:28):
If I choose to live on campus senior year.

Speaker 3 (01:38:30):
But that is actually super kind of like modern brutalist architecture,
which is which is very different from Yale's usual vibe.
But yeah, the hall that I'm.

Speaker 5 (01:38:41):
In now is very you know, Victorian, and got all of.

Speaker 2 (01:38:45):
My friend loves that that's not you know, I like
old things, but you know you can live with it.
You're in, Yeah, I mean, what do you plan to study?

Speaker 1 (01:38:56):
I'm not totally sure.

Speaker 3 (01:38:58):
I'm doing well. I'm thinking either going to major in ethics,
politics and economics, or environmental studies, and I would consider
doing a double major. I'm just not sure. I'm not
entirely sure how common that is at Yale, or if
like the requirements are gonna be too much. I don't
really know. And my freshman year I applied for this

(01:39:22):
program called Directed Studies, which is really cool because I
get to do all of these I mean, obviously Yale
is like a humongous school, but it's pretty big, and
a lot of the classes you're taking, like at any college,
are gonna be big lecture classes. And Directed Studies is
cool because you have it's three seminar courses, and so

(01:39:45):
there's like a history and political thought, one literature philosophy,
and you get to read all of this literature from
like like I just finished reading like the Iliad, and
then it's gonna go to sort of more modern stuff,
so we'll read like Frankenstein, cool stuff like that, and

(01:40:05):
we get to discuss all of that in sort of
a seminar setting with like twelve other students.

Speaker 5 (01:40:12):
So it's really.

Speaker 3 (01:40:14):
Cool, and it's such an amazing opportunity because it's so
hard to be taking three seminar classes your freshman year.
But with that program, I get to that, which is
really exciting. And then I'll probably take a maybe more
stem oriented classes my fourth class because I might need
a bit of a break from all of the writing.

Speaker 2 (01:40:31):
Yeah, that's gonna be a lot of a lot of writing,
a lot of reading too. Yeah, Oh, how exciting. I'm
so excited for you. I'm gonna just because it's it's
my partner's birthday today and my cats coincidentally, one of
my cats. I'm gonna end this, but thank you so much.

(01:40:56):
Let me before you go, let me just put this
up one more time so people can get another chance.
At the email, if you're listening on podcast, please write
the d A. It's S W A G S T
A F f E at s m c gov dot org. Again,

(01:41:16):
swag staff at s mc gov dot org. So s
m C G O V dot org swagstaff. So it's
S for Steven, W for White, A for Apple, G
for Great, S for Steve, T for top a for

(01:41:40):
Adam F F double f as in fig and e
as an excellent at s mc cove dot org. Please
write d a swag staff and let him know that
justice for Nancy Alvani is important. Thank you so much.

(01:42:03):
You're welcome back anytime you guys, uh want, and I
really appreciate. Please give your mom my thanks for coming.

Speaker 3 (01:42:15):
Yeah, I mean, thank you so much for having us on.
I know my mom was so excited and flattered to
be invited on. So yeah, and happy happy birthday to
your partner.

Speaker 2 (01:42:27):
Thank you. Yeah, thank you made him a big chocolate cake.
I just him a big chocolate cake now I kind
of make the icing it. So thanks so much. Guys,
have a good one, everybody.

Speaker 4 (01:42:40):
Yeah my check.

Speaker 8 (01:42:53):
Roberta strides through the static case True Crime, Got the
Way The shadows later place for what's to fold when
a spotlight beams fact focus, queen busting propaganda schemes, glass
shadow lies that goes through the streets, standing for victims,
giving voice their beats, and why ce Pole's truth Sharpest
Night prefer to exposing She's the anti Fried Light partast warrior,

(01:43:27):
dissecting Satan's defense twisted innocence claims, breaking pretense, shot them's
truth seeker cuts clean with the blade. Facts in the forefront,
No justice gets swayed. Cold facts drip heavy real salt.
Gun purls, cracking cases open like oysters with pearls. Innocence, gimmicks,
crumble the dust in the wind for victims. Her creed

(01:43:48):
justice till the end. Headphones blazing, She drops heavy artillery.
Now we're just twisted meat, blunt objects. Civility. Roberta God
receipts that unraveled, deploy exposing the lies, these frauds. That's

(01:44:11):
deploy glass shadows, lies that goes through the streets, standing
for victims, given voice, stand meats and y s, postal sharpness,
night Roberta exposes. She's the anti fraud light

Speaker 2 (01:45:00):
B

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