November 8, 2024 • 59 mins
Industry experts Alejandro Marin Vidal and Shelly Ruple discuss how restaurants can revolutionize their customer engagement through gaming, web3, and innovative loyalty programs on the "Rock My Restaurant" podcast. Drawing from his experience at Activision, Marin Vidal emphasizes how modern consumers seek varied experiences and dopamine-driven entertainment, suggesting that restaurants should adopt collaborative loyalty programs—a "NATO of loyalty"—rather than maintaining isolated systems. While the industry has traditionally resisted centralized loyalty programs, the experts argue that emerging technologies like AR/VR and blockchain present unprecedented opportunities for creating immersive dining experiences and strengthening customer connections through shared resources and data.
FutureOfDining #RestaurantTech #LoyaltyInnovation
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FutureOfDining #RestaurantTech #LoyaltyInnovation
🫶 Subscribe NOW - Unlock a world of knowledge, innovation, and growth from the largest podcast network in food service! - https://savorfm.substack.com/
📈 Learn More ~ Restaurant Power Index featuring the top 50 brands' performance in consumer sentiment based on 12 performance markers in food, service, and overall brand consumer sentiment. The RPI features historical and current sentiment analysis for key brands based on the overall market sentiment data. Subscribe for weekly reports on the top brands in the restaurant industry. https://www.savor.fm/restaurant-power-index
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Turn of the volume and subscribe now to Rock My Restaurant,
the podcast setting your brand on fire for you. Come
into you live every week. Branding, marketing, innovative tech, don't
get left behind the future is now.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome into another episode of Rock My Restaurant, And of
course today we are going to dive into, of course,
gaming and how loyalty, gaming and branding are all intersecting.
Of course, joining me is my co host, Miss Shelley Rupel.
How's it going, Paul, It's going good? Good, Yeah, I
know you guys are doing a lot of work. I
see so much stuff coming in from the Discord group
(00:43):
off off of what Devour is doing. I mean, first
of all, how the heck do you keep up with
that discord? That Discord group is constantly buzzing over there.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Yeah, it's a you know, I think maybe we've talked
about that a time or two. That is the difference
having a community, you know, versus just starting a business
and you know, see how you can grow it when
you've got to keep connected there.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
It's a lot, but it's good.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
It also, you know, most days keeps me energized as well,
just to see their excitement.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Well, I think between you know, Telegram, discord, all of
the different platforms out there that many brands are starting
to use to create those communities. This is starting to migrate,
i think, into gaming culture much more where brands are
finally connecting you know, the dots. So our guest today
(01:33):
is going to be fun to talk to. When you
when you got Alejandro contacted, I mean, what was it
that you did to lure him into this podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
So we've had the opportunity and pleasure to get to
know Alejandro. I think it was maybe May of this year.
He came in, did a couple of workshop sessions with
our entire team. His backgrounded activision that that build to
educate our team on somebody that you know, that has
worked at you know, a company and on the inside
(02:05):
and you know the market insights and competitive intelligence work
he did. So one of our advisors had worked with
him where they were close contacts. Luckily brought him in, Uh,
you know, was so impressed with him, and then we've
continued to work together and I'm hoping we can you know,
bring him on to be an ongoing resource for Devour
(02:27):
as well.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, well let's get him on the show here. Transitioning
in mister Alejandro marin Vida, how are you a man?
Speaker 4 (02:36):
I'm doing well. Thank you for.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Having me, and this is going to be a good conversation,
I hope, so, I hope you well. First of all,
give our guests a little bit and our audience a
little bit of background er, you know, to where you've
kind of come from and what you're doing now.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Yeah. I took the long road into gaming, so I Uh,
I was always a lifetime gamer. I grew up internationally.
I was one of those people that bounced around with
family pretty much that most continents. But I always loved gaming. Man.
I graduated in film, I did an MBA, I did
(03:15):
a PhD in management science focusing consumer behavior.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
I was always kind of trying to get into the
business side of entertainment. As much as I love creative work,
I'm also an immigrant and so you know, uh, that
was harder to get a visa and planning your career
through the creative side of it. Business side felt a
little bit more viable for me, and so I was
(03:42):
one of those people. It was just like running alongside
the train. I was just like, I want to I
want to hop on that train, and I don't know
how to make a jump, but we're just going to
keep running. And after my PhD, I had the fortune
of finding a role at the Boston Consulting Group and
so I was a consultant that for I was a
consultant and then project leader for about five years. And
(04:04):
then in twenty eighteen, I just I was finally sitting
on I had my green card, I had what I
felt was finally a compelling enough CV where I just
was like, it's now or never. Yeah, twenty eighteen, I
just made the call of let's spend the year trying
(04:24):
to get into this industry and we're going to figure
it out and if it works, great, and if not,
then you know, we gave it the old college try.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
So you spent that time in Activision and then that's
what Activision.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
So after in twenty eighteen, I'm in that scary transition
period and I make the leap, and fortunately I find
this role at Activision where a former consultant was running
a strategy team. There. I was looking for people with
the background like mine consulting, gaming knowledge, data knowledge to
(04:58):
help run sort of the consultant the strategy, but more
market oriented long term strategy thinking and incubation work, and
so I did that, was in that team for about
two and a half years, and then was asked to
run it essentially build a team called market Insights and
Competitive Intelligence, and I ran that for another years, and
(05:20):
so I was an activision total some total six years,
all the way through the acquisition, post acquisition, and then unfortunately,
when all the giant layoffs happened, I was one of
the nineteen hundred and that that first batch. But it,
you know, it was kind of one of those like
(05:41):
blessings in disguise in some ways for me. I was
very fortunate that a from consulting time, I kind of
saw it coming, so had a bit of a was
able to strategize around it. But also just it was
the first time that I'd ever had really a runway
to breathe. And so I decided, you know what, like
this is a good sign. You know, sometimes you just
(06:02):
take things as they come. And I said, well, let's
turn this into a sabbatical. Let's let's just.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
March.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Let's let's let's take take a beat now that we
have the luxury of time for once. And yeah, so
I've been essentially trying to stay busy in other aspects
of life, and so I've been doing smaller projects creative outlets.
(06:30):
I've been doing things and music and things like that,
but I've also stayed connected in gaming, trying to just
kind of lend my brain to where it can be beneficial.
And so I had the opportunity to teach them courses
at Cornell earlier this year. They have a game design program,
so I got to be a visiting sort of guest
lecture advisor in there, reviewing all the student pitches, met
(06:51):
the wonderful Grine club there, advised some students over the summer.
I gave a talk there as an alumni of program,
not of game design, which they had that when I graduated.
And then I've also been acting as a senior advisor
for new Zoo, which is one of the leading research
firms in the games industry, and so I've been working
(07:13):
with them very closely to just get pass along perspective
from client side, but also to just sort of share
additional thoughts on how to refine where they can potentially
just evolve the product the forecast reporting. And it's an
incredible team, brilliant people, and so I've just been really
(07:36):
fortunate to be able to just be in there and
help them level up. I mean, at the end of
the day, that's what I want to do.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, you've kind of hit on on a lot of
things there, I think that we've got to unpack in
this episode. One that I thought was interesting was the
consumer science connection because that is something that I think
works in so many different industries. We get a chance
to see it in the restaurant industry quite a bit.
You know, how gamify something, how do you create a
loyal brand person, which is like a loyal game player.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
How do you get that.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Interaction where they share it with others, you know, bring
in their you know, their crew. So that's an intriguing
component I think you know in retail today, Shelley, I
know you guys have done a really good job with
that because you've got a very rabid community around the
Devour app. And then at the same time you're starting
to transition to kind of this game connection that brands
(08:30):
are starting to understand. Do you feel like brands kind
of have the insight to what's really going on here
in terms of community building.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Yeah, I think you know, early on right there, there's
always been that traditional how did they promote, how do
they keep customers coming back? How you know, campaigns, things
like that, But actually building community they are very you know,
there are a few of them that have really tapped
into that and are exploding. I think we mentioned Dave's
Hot Chicken a lot and just you know, their explosion
(09:04):
on social media versus you know, the number of actual
physical locations they have at this point. And it's hard,
right especially when you when you look in the gaming
culture and gaming community. They you know, their motivations, it's
similar and yet very different, and they move you know
together in a lot of ways as far as you know,
how they react to two different things. That's that's one
(09:26):
of the places you've really worked to pick Alejandro's brain on,
is you know, learning that because it's a you know,
there's a there's a consumer science to it for sure.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
I think the key here right now, at least on
the gaming side, and this is something that we we
have as a topic here on Rock My Restaurant, but
we also talk about it over on PBN, and that
is kind of this evolution from Web two to Web three,
So you see some movement there and I know, Shelley,
(09:58):
you're all in on Web three Alejandro, he kind of
comes from the Web two world. And then, you know,
we had this big crack in the matrix that occurred
a couple of weeks ago when Off the Grid launches,
and I've had a chance to get in on this game,
and I feel like it it's one of those games
that's that maybe it is the game that will make
(10:20):
the change going forward. I still am questioning whether or
not that is going to happen. But Alejandra, I want
your insight on that, because you think about the gaming
mindset today and you have this battle between Web three
gaming and Web two gaming, it's really built around the
tokenization and the earning of you know, whether it's NFTs
(10:40):
or you know, in game rewards. Do you think we're
ever going to see that finally the walls come down.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
Between the two. It's very, very bearish on that. I
have a hard time seeing a scenario where Web three
gaming hits the same levels of scale that what we
you know, what would be called traditional games it looks
like right now, yeah uh. And a big part of
(11:09):
that is just the nature of the medium, right because
I think that with gaming, there is a utopian view
of oh if if if if if, if they just
embrace Web three, then I can buy this year, and
I can take my gun and I can move it
over here, or I can find and move it over here.
(11:29):
You know. It's it's that promise of the thing that
I purchase now I own, and it exists on this
external ledger and it transfers across things. The challenge with
that is what we were talking about earlier as well,
which is branding, which is intellectual property management. Every game,
in its own way is a walled empire by design
(11:52):
because it's part of the economy. It's you look at Steam,
they have almost a Web three type ecosystem all ready,
where within the publisher's ecosystem, I can buy a gun
in one game, and then I can I might not
necessarily be able to use it in another game, but
I can trade it for an item in another game
(12:13):
in a marketplace. So all the functionality of Web three exists,
but it's within a walled garden. That's the owner of
those games that participate give its blessing too, and so
they control the what is going to show up. Because
at the end of the day, IP matters so much
(12:34):
and so if you think about it, it's kind of
like if we imagined a world where if I went
to the movie and went to see Deadpool and Wolverine,
and I paid enough, I got to own Deadpool and
I can now put him in Superman.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Right.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Like, that's not going to work for Warner and Marble ever,
because they want such control over these things. And with gaming,
every element of the game is part of the branding,
right from the medics to the weapons to everything. And
so I would imagine that what may happen is a
(13:10):
hybrid model wherein publishers start to create within their ecosystems,
perhaps a ten year view, where a PlayStation says across
all PlayStation games, these things are transferable. But there's just
a barrier of.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Saying if I, you know, again just using well, then well,
within the ecosystems, I think it does make sense. You know,
you're right, there are some that would know that direction.
I think the thing that is going to maybe shift
that though, is where we see the ar VR transition.
I mean, I'm just showing some footage here from Ready
(13:50):
Player one, but the concept behind, you know, the potential
of what ARVR could be. And of course if you
think about what Zuckerberg is doing. I mean, he's stepping
into that kind of interoperable thought process. I've heard him
say this many times on podcasts. Is that they're really
going to open up now. That's the real question. Is
(14:10):
it will Meta truly become a new gaming powerhouse or
just more of a productivity tool. We just don't know
because there hasn't been any you know, other than a
handful of sports games. But I've been playing more and
more with this metaquest and it, to me, is almost
as addictive as a good, really good game economy. And
(14:33):
I think what's interesting to me is it's just getting started.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
It's just beginning. What do you think about that? Well,
I would challenge that it's just starting. On the ARVR side,
I think for the last decade we've been saying that
VR is the next big thing, right, And I'm nervous
that ARVR is more like Fetch and Mean Girls, which
is just a thing that people are going to say
(14:58):
is going to happen, but will never happen because there's
an issue where you see the install based growing. There
are more units being sold, yes, but you're not seeing
the software go up. Yeah, for me, when I see
those numbers, it just tells me that the same cohort
of people are just updating their hardware. So you're essentially
selling more to the same population that's already bought into
(15:19):
the tech. But there's a lot of it barriers to
consumer adoption. And I want to go to the metaverse
point because I think we've been here before. I want
to say, probably twenty years ago now Linden Labs between remembers. Yeah,
remember London Labs and Second Life. It was the same,
(15:40):
It was the same premise, and we saw the same
gold rush, and you see it was on the cover
of the Economists and people were talking about Second Life,
and you had political rallies in a Second Life island,
and you had companies that were investing in Second Life developers,
and it was as this thing. It never materialized. The
(16:03):
challenge is it goes to IP I just IP is
king and when you go into something like a metaverse
that is all user generated.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah, I think the difference between that you think about
twenty years of gaming and probably Gen X my generation,
one of the core gramming groups, but we were really
a small generation. Then you have Gen Y, the millennials.
They have really I think they are truly the maybe
the genesis of true next level gaming. And now you
(16:36):
know with uh with gen z. You know, I've got
a couple of Jena Alpha running around the house over here,
and you know it's I'm watching their behavior back to
your consumer behavior, and I you know, I see them
pick up the medquests. I see him jump on the Xbox,
I see him get into the PC. You know, he's
very she and he. They're very multi dimensional in terms
(16:58):
of and they don't have This is the thing that
is interesting to me. They don't have affinity for one
or the other. But to your point, they follow the
ip So roadblocks will be on the iPad, then it's
over on the Xbox and then some you know. So
it's very intriguing that the platform could become ubiguous.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
You know, if you asked me about my crystal ball
in gaming, and I love this because the other thing
you mentioned was restaurants, and so I think about this
as well. Is everybody eats, right, and so there's not
a restaurant market, Like there's not an audience for restaurants.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
It's like hair, right, it's air, we all.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
Breathe, we all eat, and so you talk about Dave's
Hot Chicken. That's kind of like fast premium. We have
fast food, you have McDonald's, you have a Dave's Hot Chicken,
you have In and Out, you have shake Shack, and
then you all the way up to like a poohole, right,
and they all have communities, but the brand, the expectation
that you state. One is a thing I'm going to
(18:02):
eat every day to substitute my meals and my doctor
will hate me. The other is a thing I might
eat at once in my life, and I'm going to
aspire to it, right, and it's going to be incredible,
And I'm willing to spend ten dollars a year, probably
not twenty dollars because everything went in, but you're going
to spend three hundred dollars over here, right, And now
(18:24):
that you're talking about the millennials forward, but gaming I saw.
I believe it was Newszoo put out the statistic not
too long ago that they estimate eighty percent of the
online population play video games like literally if if you're
on the air.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, the numbers are continuing to skyrocket, but you know
it because of those emerging you know, those emerging demos
that are really taken over right now. Gen Z is
a big part of a gen A will be right
behind them.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
Max is also heavy on mobile and Solar Boomers, and
they're very heavy on Candy Crush and other mobile games.
But so it becomes more like television. It becomes like
restaurants where where it's not a one segment anymore. And
(19:11):
I think that's so fascinating to be able to parse it.
And when we think about Web three, you know, I
think a lot of times when we talk about the
conversation of ar VR web three, is it going to
like Indiana Jones the pedestal? Are we going to like
swab from this game to this game? Magically, I don't
think that's where we're That ship has sailed of substitution
(19:32):
at this point. I think it's will this, Will this
coexist with other verticals? Right? Will television display cinema? No,
we know that now. Instead we have different models and
so much like how YouTube hasn't killed television, it's just
created a different there's an audience that seeks media that way.
(19:54):
There may be a segment that perhaps with roadblocks the
generation that's grown up, where it's the content less than
the IP. Yeah, like the Roadblocks ecosystem, but they're not
really attached to the roadblocks. Guy, there's no like character,
there's no story to Roadblocks. It's a lot of little experiences.
It's a theme park. Maybe there could be a world
(20:15):
where a Web three type roadblocks exists. Yeah, but the
big promise that like I'm going to play in this
game and I'm going to earn these things, I'm going
to be able to take them from here elsewhere is
going to be very hard to materialize because that elsewhere
is going to have to say, yeah, you can bring
your thing into my carefully curated ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, I think that. Well, you know, I don't know.
I'm gonna I would disagree. I would disagree in the
sense that you know, I'm watching you know, these cross
generational behaviors. You know, we cover a lot in the
gaming space where we're looking at Web two, we look
at Web three, we look at where blockchain is going.
(20:58):
The capability of what blockchain represents. Every game should be
using it today. You know, even if you're going to
stay within your walls as brand ip, just the ability
to you know, put ownership on a ledger and have
an immutable track of that is very critical and of
course any IP and of course we're seeing this now
(21:19):
with Nike and what they've been able to do with
artifact and an unbelievable I saw the number the other day,
what was almost six hundred billion they're claiming, not them
in general, but six hundred billion in their space what
they call interactive branding and marketing, which is going to
be through gaming and through some of these other whether
(21:41):
it's an NT or whatever you want to call it.
Brand IP ownership six hundred billion by twenty twenty eight,
So just literally around the corner. Pretty crazy numbers within that.
And with that being the case, I think the question
back to your point on roadblocks, You're exactly right. It
(22:02):
doesn't have that brand IP that is lockable in, you know,
like Master Sergeant or you know, lockable in to certain components,
you know, because you get the gamers that you know,
kind of you have gamers who are Diablo gamers, you
have gamers who are you know, Call of Duty gamers,
and that's their game, that's what they lock in on.
(22:24):
So it's going to be intriguing to see if brands
can kind of transition that. And we see a lot
of restaurant brands starting to make that leap into you know,
I know, well it was tech and eight and there
was a couple others that they were working with, you know, yeah,
so so Shelley, I guess this question is for you
(22:45):
when you look at the brands that do just like
what Alejandro's alluding to, is this brand IP locking in
on you know, things like that. You're working with a
lot of these brands who are trying to integrate that. Jeff,
you know, of course we know uh infamously from Wobbout
integrating into orldblocks. But there are other brands now out there,
(23:07):
I know you're working with that are also looking at
other alternatives. What's what, in your opinion, is causing a
brand to choose one IP over the other? What one
IP or that like entering into three? Well like, for instance,
there's so many you look at Overwolf in your partnership
there you have, I mean, what is that thousands of
(23:28):
games available on that right now?
Speaker 4 (23:29):
Right? Yes? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:31):
How would you a brand? You know, I'm a restaurant brand,
I'm a Dave's Hot Chicken. How do I pick the
right ecosystem that matches up with me?
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Oh? Chickens? Right?
Speaker 3 (23:43):
And that that's an interesting conversation. At some point I
want to I want to also come back and give
my opinion on the AR ar v R that as well.
But on the brand, yes, I mean that is important
to them, right. That's been part of the conversation with
with Dave's is that protection of I p for what
they choose or don't choose to to, you know, do
(24:05):
a collaboration with and wanting to be very sure before
before they do. I think there's that other aspect and
Paul you were saying it of you know, every game
should be using it on some level when you look
at marketing, when we look at it from a restaurant perspective,
that ability if it is on chain to then do
(24:25):
the collaborations, uh you know call of Duty and uh
Little Caesars that that you know they've been doing this
collaboration for the last few years. The purchase has to
start on the Little Caesar side to flow through versus
a play to get model where because it's on on chain,
(24:46):
things like that, you can trigger a promotion you know
who who then has redeemed it. If they want to
share that promotion with someone else, they can you know,
those types of things. That's where this value I believe
of a blockchain Web three. I feel that kind of
same way about ar VR, and we talk about it
(25:07):
so much of there's going to be this defined line
where we go from this world to it being very
very different. I'm looking at it more and more that it's.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Just part of the tech stack, right, there's so much
other thing.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
It is our daily life, and I've been you know,
really for even Web three we do, we are really
Web two point five.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
We do a lot Web two. We leverage the power
of Web three, but it's just part of our tech stack.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
I don't talk everything about Google being our infrastructure, right,
And so that for me is where I feel a
lot more that it'll go versus identifying as one or
the other. And I think brands will embrace that more
when that kind of is the narrative versus they have
to make a choice to be on one side of
(25:55):
the line or the other.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Alejandro. You know, that gets us into some things around
the influencers and kind of what their impact on gaming
has been. And if you look at social and the
birth of where social media really began around two thousand
and seven with both Twitter, Facebook, that I would say
those were the mature ones that evolved out of friends
to and MySpace and all that coming out of that,
(26:20):
And now where we are today and the discussion of
possibly a federated social platform or some sort of open
source concept. Now blockchain has been looked at as there.
There's also a kind of a handful of developers trying
to build something in kind of like what RSS is
(26:40):
doing with podcasting. Do you think that that will create
a new because this goes back to the consumer science side,
do you think that will create a new set of
muscles for us as users? That would because I know
I leap from X to TikTok to Instagram. You know,
(27:04):
it almost just like fluidly boom boom boom boom. Yes,
it's it's that possible because that's very gamified. And if
you think about retail and if now if you layer
in gamification into I know, oh, he's pulling his hair back.
Now he's going to get serious. I love it. So
tell me, tell me how that could possibly format in
(27:27):
the future.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
I have a very hard time seeing it. I see
influencers as just another marketing item, like the reality is.
I think my hot take is that influencers are twenty
in twenty twenty in the twenty twenties are like the
MTV VJs in the late eighties early nineties. Oh there
then everybody wanted to be a VJ and everyone knew
(27:50):
Carson Daley and Sway and Hurry all of the names, right, God,
I can't remember all the names at this point, but
like we used to know them. They were all households
and they were influential and we aspired to them, and
now it did. Like three of them are on satellite
radio and the rest are like bailed on the industry
(28:13):
when you saw. Like the reason that I say this
is influencers are extremely fungible. So when Microsoft was trying
to counter Twitch, they had their platform Mixer, which you know,
rest in Peace, it has a lot of great technology
in there. They spent a fortune to poach some of
the top streamers at the time. And if you'll remember,
there's a guy called Ninja and he was the number
(28:34):
one streamer in Fortnite. He leaves Twitch moves to Mixer.
This guy was commanding hundreds of thousands of views. Moves
to Mixer. That number goes down to ten thousand, and
the overall Fortnite viewership didn't change. On Twitch literally left
the hole and then everyone just went, ah that, I'll
just go see somebody else play tow it.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah, it's the dominance of the platform at the time.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
But it's also how fung your is. The people are
seeing the game, and yeah, the person who plays the
game is charming and great for the most part, but
it's really the IP just here. Then they're just going
to click on the next box because next and there's
tens of thousands of people screaming.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Well, I think that the concept I'm getting at is
not necessarily the individual, but the concept of whether it's
the influencer or the platform functionality. Much like to your
point with the IP, you know, I just wonder on
a day, at some point, does Meta finally open that
(29:38):
up and enable I mean, they kind of have done
it with Instagram WhatsApp to a certain extent, but it's
not nefit necessarily open. It's still wall gardens. You know,
x as a wall garden. TikTok is a wall garden.
And I guess at some point the question is is
do we see a gaming ecosystem just become so powerful,
(29:59):
whether it's an epic or what's happening with Steam that
they just become the center of the universe.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
It's going to be hard because, as you mentioned, we're
so used to now multi ecosystem realities. Yea, every single
one of these is so large, Like I mean just
video game software alone, if you talk about mobile, PC
and console twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, like I mean,
it's it's about one hundred and eighty billion dollars right
(30:29):
now as an answer, right, and and it's it's not
like spread out across one hundred and eighty plus companies.
It's it's a handful of people own a giant chair
of the pie. I don't see a world in which
any of these privately or publicly owned companies say, ah, yes,
(30:49):
like our investors are board, are our everybody is going
to be comfortable with us suddenly giving away our competitive advantage,
Uh yeah, eroding the IP the brand value, right, Like
I don't think that, you know, Like, Okay, So there's
there's a there's an institutional problem just in the nature
(31:13):
of just capitalism and how these things work. But I
also just go back to a little bit of what
you were saying with your children, where you were saying
that they just flow, right, and I think it will
flow between things. And I also just wanted to reflect
on what you mentioned, like, well, there's Call of Duty
players and then there's these kinds of players. But with
gaming and just with entertainment in general, we're not We
(31:37):
no longer live in a world where it's like Chevy Ford.
You know. It's like I'm a Chevy guy, I'm a
Ford guy, and that's my thing. Right, It's like people
who play Call of Duty also play Fortnite and also
play other games. They just spent Fortnite. When we look
at the broader data, like when we look at the
you have, when you have hundreds of millions of people playing,
(31:58):
they have tens of people playing, you're going to have
like a core that's going to be like, we only
play this game, but in order to hit those tens
and hundreds of millions, right, Like you're getting into like
how many people only watch CSI, Right, how many people
only watch the Big Bang Theory? Right? Like that's what
we're starting to talk about.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Sure, the rotation of the IP I get that, you know.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
The experience of the entertainment of the of the stimulus,
right of the dopamine at the end of the day.
It's a lot of this is just where do we
get our daily dopamine? And when we stop getting our
dopamine hits from this one, I got to open the
next app. That's why we don't scroll because well this
is we go to Reddit and then we run out
of juice in that reddit and.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
We move back exactly. Yeah, And I guess my question
is this because are we at that area where because
we see this in the restaurant space where there's cycles
where a certain sector of the industry is consumed by
a new emerging sector. You know, in the foods service
industry and the restaurant business, it was fast casual. It
(33:04):
took over in nineteen ninety six from up to around
twenty ten, and then it exploded and it is now
everything you know if it's fast casual, upscale dining, or
fast food, and fast casual is by far the fastest
growing out there continuously. And that's the Chipotles of the world,
the Panaros, et cetera. You know, Dave's Hot Chicken. So
(33:27):
but my point is is that I'm getting at is
that if you look at the emergent because all those
brands were little bitty guys. You know, it's like the independent,
it's like the indie game developer. Okay, they're little bitty guys,
but all of a sudden, collectively, they have displaced a
trillion dollar industry, a trillion dollar industry that's the restaurant industry.
(33:51):
So my question is when you look at gaming or
you know, social to the extent that we're dealing with.
Now back to your point of saying, no, no, these
big guys aren't going to want to, you know, release
that brand eyp. But at some point neither did Taco
Bell want to release the brand Ipeda Mexican, but they
(34:13):
lost it to Chipotle. And if you look at it
from the point of I think there's some young guys,
young women, young people that are designing and developing that
may create the next thing, you know, as they're going
to get kicked out anyway, they're going to grow MySpace away.
Speaker 4 (34:33):
We're absolutely do I think that across the board, across cinema,
across entertainment, across teaming. Where what I was talking about earlier, right,
these big companies that are so focused on and rightfully so,
that the duty to grow the company protect the shareholder
interests protect the empes as much as they can. Like,
(34:56):
that's the goal, right it is, like safe de risk.
That's what got us into the dreadful eighties of cinema
where everything was flashboard and just safe. Betsy, that's where
everything right now is safe. Ip. So to your point,
there's one hundred percent and we're due for a rock.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
It's turning.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
It's generational, like just something has to get.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Like if you think if I don't know, if you
guys remember the company Rim. Do you remember Rim Technology?
Speaker 4 (35:30):
Yeah? So Rim was the.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Creator of the BlackBerry.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
Yes, yes, and they you know I was.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
I was a young developer coming out of Silicon Valley
working with Microsoft, and Rim was our arch nemesis because
we were building what we thought was going to be
the next iPhone at the time with the Microsoft. Little
did we know that some some idiot named Steve Jobs
would come up with something you know a little better.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
The microphone. I like the micro phone, by the way,
I thought the phono ass was pretty slick. It was.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
It was a great phone.
Speaker 4 (36:02):
Man.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
And listen, I was even on the Zoom. Do you
remember the Zoom.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
I was about to say, shout out to the zoom.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I love ourselves down.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
H Yeah. I like I like archaic technology that we
got and that goes the marketing and it goes to
change management and and and at the end of the day,
like it was, there's a degree of simplicity that's essential, right.
I think a lot of those products were engineering first
(36:35):
and great tons of gadgets, tons of things, whereas the
iPhone was just like, it works, that's it. It's it's
it's simple, it's easy. And so you can go from
this to that.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
That That brings me back to the kind of full
circle here, Shelley to you is that's exactly what I
feel like is happening with restaurants today. Is you have
the people who are like the Jeff Alexander's, the Dave's
Hot Chickens, the you know, the guys are over at Doghouse.
Even then you have McDonald's Chipotle, some which are starting
(37:08):
to wait a little bit out there into gaming integration.
You know, there's a lot of them that have not
stepped over just yet. So I'm questioning whether or not
are we at a point where there is a breed
of brands, restaurant brands, retail brands, all kinds of brands
that are ready to just leap forward and become the
(37:30):
new thing because of their integration into all these new techs.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Right, I very possibly sow. And I love the BlackBerry
losing signals story. Right, you can't imagine until you do.
In the you know, early two thousands, nobody could have
imagined giving up their BlackBerry or that they would basically
be gone within you know, a decade, And that experience,
(37:56):
that transition of experience was that didn't happen till it
did till there, until there was that understanding of what
could be so different. And I think that is the
same thing you know with with restaurants, gaming, the immersive gamification,
all of that. Yeah, you have your tip of the
sphere and crossing the chasm. You have you know, the
(38:16):
the the middle ground in your laggards, but it's we're
still very early on that on the front end of
that chasm. But you know, gamification, that tie over between
the gaming industry and the restaurants, you know that that's
something I know love, I know we're almost up to
time here, but yeah, you know, we love Alejandro's opinion
(38:38):
on that of that crossover because there's so much opportunity there.
Speaker 4 (38:42):
It's it's so fascinating to me because I think if
we if we go back to gamification, like we were
talking about loyalty programs at the end of the day,
like most loyalty programs are gamification to an extent, complete
white challenge, are and such and such points, reward this
and this, and so I do I do see that
(39:02):
that just becomes a new normal for pretty much all
loyalty programs. And when I think about disruption in this space,
the big challenge that we run into is what we're
starting to see across gaming and what we're starting to
see across h you know, subscription services, which is just
people are starting to get tired of too many subscriptions,
(39:25):
too many. If everything is nified, then it's exhausted. I
have to check in on every single one of my
apps every day. I have to, you know, if you
start to almost make a weird decision paralysis element of like,
oh man, but if I if I order it from
this restaurant, then I'm going to lose my streak on
this restaurant. And you know, I like that the dual
(39:47):
only works so well if but if everyone is badgering
you to log in to order to what are you
going to miss out on? I think we'll we're heading
to a potential fatigue point where when we talk about
tech stack and we talk about opportunities and where there
might be room for Web three kind of thing is
like a centralized loyalty, like some sort of a like
(40:10):
a universal reward system, a universal gamification, something that now
makes it so that people can participate with less stress. Right.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
I think there's been a few people talking about that before. Right,
How do you think that I want to get you
because you're you're in tune to this strategic development. How
do you think that could happen? What would have to
occur with brands? You think Starbucks, McDonald's, I mean both
of them have these massive loyalty programs.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
Yes, I think what would have to happen is, Look,
it won't happen until consumers start voting with their time
and their wallets. And I think what has to happen
is a point of failure. That's usually what creates a cataclysm.
Share is when when you know you see green the whole,
(41:04):
like investment in green energy coincided with the collapse of
the price of oil. It wasn't an altruism thing. The
holy crap, like, we need to find new lines of
business because otherwise we're going to have to let go
of fifty percent of our workforce because that was literally
how much the press crew dropped about ten years ago.
And so similarly, I think until people start cutting the cord,
(41:25):
until people start saying enough is enough. Right, we're starting
to see this with how many subscription services when we
talk about your Netflix is, your Hulu's, your Disney pluses,
we're coming full circle back to cable because people got
so fed up with having to manage fifteen different subscriptions.
Yeah different now like hey now we have a Disney
ESPN Hulu bundle, now we have this this, and so
(41:49):
we're back to cable, like we've literally come full circle.
And so similarly, I think that we're going to unfortunately
stretch people's times in that eventually that rubber band is
going to snap, and when that does, I think that
there's gonna be Look, the McDonald's and the Starbucks is
they'll probably be fine because while the industry has been
(42:12):
disrupted in terms of yeah, they're not the bell of
the ball anymore. I mean talk about still doing an
ri for itself in terms of retail locations, in terms
of year on year revenue. McDonald's is shutting down some locations,
but they seem to have stabbed, stabilized, and they're doing okay,
especially when you take a point of view of things.
So it's almost like you're going to have these giants.
(42:36):
But where I think the consolidation and the opportunity is
going to happen is how these these what is the ecosystem,
what is the union of what is the what is
the European Union of fast casual? What is the what
is the NATO?
Speaker 2 (42:51):
That's a good one like that.
Speaker 4 (42:53):
So when I think about that, that's where I imagine
that's what will happen is when when you have collect
to bargaining, when you have you know what I remember
I learned this turn. It's such a silly like one
of those like business buzzworthy words, But I like the
idea of co opetition, right, which is we we still
operate into this world of zero sum. You have to
(43:14):
lose for me to bring, right, That's that's a you
know we're talking about this people gaming. This has to
die so that this can be disrupted, right like this
this loses, this wins, and I think that there's a
better model. And and for me, the model is like, look,
we can still compete, but maybe let's build something together
(43:37):
that is stronger, right, ape together strong, right. And so
that's where I think about when you start to see
you know, when I think about cinema, when I look
at film, one of the things that I think is, so,
I bet you executives today hate it. But the fact
that the I can't remember how long ago the film
industry said hey, let's just make all box office gross public.
(43:57):
The consumer can be informed on how much money is
a moving are making everybody sense. It becomes a cause, right,
Like how many movies now come out where people go, oh, man, like,
let's go and see it again so we can help
it break whatever record. Right. It's like people are literally
voting with their wallets to get the sequel to the movie.
They want to get this kind of thing. But that
require all the studios to come together and say, I
(44:20):
guess we're all going to disclose this stuff now. And
that's super scary. Similar, But that came about in an
era where cinema was struggling, right the seventies sixties, United
Artists collapsed you had a lot of collapse of studio.
So similarly, I think at a crisis point, somebody is
going to come out and say, hey, y'all, we're going
(44:41):
to survive this together or we're not going to survive
this at all. And when that happened, there will be
an opportunity for a disruptor to come in and say, hey, y'all,
you focus on doing you food, gaming, whatever. We'll create
the network that's going to help the blockchain, the Web
(45:01):
three implementation that goes into the tech stack that then
everyone can have listen, you do you we focus on this,
This will give you consumer loyalty, but it will do
it in a way that is sustainable, so that we're
not just throwing another subscription at the pile. That's my
noster damis crystal ball like what would have to happen.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
But I don't necessarily that's an intriguing concept too, because
I do think there are some brands that might, you know,
want to create the NATO of it uh and then
figure out a way to integrate to each other through
some sort of centralized loyalty or so you think about
the ability to leverage marketing gamification, you know, because that
(45:46):
could also lift itself. It's very it's very socialist.
Speaker 4 (45:49):
Though socialist. Let's just say that. I think I think
that I would actually say that the other way is
very feudalist.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (46:01):
I think that we've confused capitalism and feudalism because I
think we are currently in the fiefdom of Bezos, in
the fiefdom of Musk and the fifstom of right like
you have these and we are in theirs, and we
have CEOs as lords now, but we don't. But but
(46:21):
I don't think that we have what used to be capitalism.
And I do think that shared supply lines that used
to be a thing. There wasn't anything. I did a
silk road, right, like, there's that's not socialism, that's just efficiency.
I started it, and I.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Said, I started a group like this. This is a
funny conversation. I started a group like this in what
was the two thousand and six I think it was,
And we we built the Fast Casual Alliance. And the
idea was we took all these CEOs of these emerging
brands and we said, hey, let's come together, let's try
to create a buying group. Let's try to create you know,
(47:00):
an activist group from a loyal from a lobby standpoint,
because the industry was very small at the time and
we weren't getting very much credit in DC, you know,
around lawmaking, because there was a lot around tips, there
was a lot around the classification of QSR workers versus
fast food workers and casual dining workers. So there was
(47:22):
a lot of that in the late twenty tens, and
we developed that which eventually got sucked up by the
NRA and is now the council, so it lives today.
There is a NATO of that.
Speaker 4 (47:34):
Oh that was a different NRA. Sorry, it took me
a second.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah, National Restaurant Association. Sorry, Yeah, there is a National
Restaurant Association Council that does that now. So it's kind
of interesting. I'm wondering why that. Why do you think, Shelley,
that the National Restaurant Association hasn't created a national loyalty platform.
Speaker 4 (47:55):
I you know, I think the.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
Rest I think the restaurant industry has been resistant to
it at this point, right, I mean, in travel you
have Expedia or the different In gaming we devour play
is uh, you know, that's a central loyalty with the
you know, tying into the different Yeah, all the different
games and restaurants, right that being able to earn and
(48:19):
then you know, spend it with the restaurants.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
So it's reverse on that.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
But I think I think it's resistance and something's going
to I mean, there is loyalty fatigue.
Speaker 4 (48:30):
We talked about that last week, right the the you.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Know the am I how many can you be a
part of and earn anything that's mean and meaningful, the
experience of it where something central could but that giving
up control.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
Yeah, man, what a great conversation this is. I want
to get one more topic in because I feel like
we go for a long time loyalty. You know, we're
touching on it, on the boundaries of everything. Gamification is
a big part of loyalty. I think some retail already
starting to figure out how this works. Nike is the
(49:08):
master class on how they've done it with artifact. They've
tied in their you know, the you know, the influencer
sport influencers to it to create these you know, these
branded IP components. Do you think, Hudro, when you look
at the restaurant brands, do you think that they could
someday And you're an expert, you're a master at creating
(49:32):
brand ip for gamification. Why couldn't restaurants do the same
thing brand ip for gamification that they own, you know
that they have.
Speaker 4 (49:43):
I mean, I think you're spot on. I mean, honestly,
I think it's very unusual to me how and I
don't know whether it was some sort of a pushback
to what was considered dated. But we used to I mean,
remember when you used to have the Burger King and
(50:03):
you used to have Grimness and Ronald McDonald and the monopoly.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
I mean, they still kind of have it, but it's
not it hasn't leaped.
Speaker 4 (50:12):
That doesn't really it has a culture, it hasn't evolved,
it hasn't ingrained itself. And I think Shelley nailed it
a little bit too. Whereas there's still the sense of
if I don't control it, then it's not worth doing, right,
if I can't get one hundred percent of it, then
I'd rather get zero. And that is a very unusual
way to think about it. But that's unfortunately the way
(50:34):
that a lot of the culture currently is a.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Well, don't you think though the demographics are shifting enough,
collaboration will will come.
Speaker 4 (50:44):
That's why I think there's also an element of time.
I think there's also an element of generational perspective, because
I do think that as you're mentioning IP becomes more
fungible as the byproduct of everything being multiverse and everything
being cross promotional and signic showing and roadblocks and the
Mario movie being everywhere, and you go to Universal Studios
(51:07):
and now Mario is next door to Homer Simpson, right,
like it's the modern consumer I think sees this brand
exclusivity as a negative, whereas I think the elder, like
the old way of thinks as value time. But I
(51:27):
just mean the previous paradigm was one hundred percent value
or bust, right. And I do think that we will
start to see some of these shifts as you start
to see shifts in generational leadership, generational shareholder ownership, as
the boards turn, as you start to see more people
who are willing to challenge the status quo because what
(51:50):
worked is not necessarily was going to keep working. And
I can't think of it, you know. I mean, if
I think about this generational shift, it's a weird tangent
that it sounds the world wwe before under Vince McMahon
versus after Vince McMahon under the new leader Night and Day.
(52:11):
The previous model was if my my talent leaves my company,
I'm going to soothe the hell out of them. They
don't get to own anything. I'm going to destroy the
territories I'm going to acquire. It was very much this
like law of the Jungle type thinking of like I
have to kill what I eat. McMahon leaves, gets exited,
(52:32):
you know, by and then the new head of creative
comes in, the new chief executive for Yeah, and he
starts saying, nah, man, everyone, we want wrestling as a
whole to grow the platform and talent from rival promotions
and rival television shows, which was unthinkable.
Speaker 2 (52:51):
So that would be interesting to see if Dana White
would do that with UFC.
Speaker 4 (52:55):
Well, they're they're talking about it now. Yeah, because of TKO.
Now they're going to start doing crossover between UFC ANDWE,
which they would have never done.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
When you think about the gaming collaborations that could come
out of that down the road, I mean, I'm just
thinking of the opportunity here, and you could translate that
easy to restaurant brands, I mean, brand collaborations building.
Speaker 4 (53:18):
Man, there's just so much what you were talking about
where it's how does a Dave Hot Chicken pick who?
This is where I think the consumer information comes down to.
Every brand should know who their core audience is. Who
do I bring to the table, right, because I'm if
I'm Dave's Hot Chicken, I know who is my captive audience.
(53:38):
And then who is my adjacent audience who occasionally comes
in and who might come to Hot Chicken but just
hasn't encountered the brand yet?
Speaker 3 (53:45):
Right?
Speaker 4 (53:46):
And then as you look at your partnership, say well,
who's strongest and the types of people who eat Hot
Chicken but don't eat Dave's right right now, because we're
still in this early stage of understanding the value of
existing outside silos, we don't fully understand our consumers. Yeah, good,
understand them in terms of what what movies does my
(54:08):
movie audience?
Speaker 2 (54:09):
You know, it's the old it's the old marketing mechanism
of you know, trying to go in and create lookalike audiences,
those kind of things.
Speaker 4 (54:16):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
To your point, you know, Visa of course now is
piloting this web three customer loyalty platforms. So again you know,
Visa could be the intermedia there there that we're very
low poisoned.
Speaker 4 (54:30):
Yeah, able to do something like that a square anybody
that's already integrated into people's text, we're already crazy. Man.
Speaker 2 (54:39):
Hey listen, I'm telling you. The opportunities are going to
be huge.
Speaker 4 (54:41):
They're going to make massive Oh no, one und I
think that the opportunity my Michael's with ar VR, with
a lot of this stuff. I think the opportunities are massive.
I think right now the focus is on direct to consumer,
and that's where I think it's a misnomer. I think,
for example, dr ar when when you try the Apple
Vision Pro, if you haven't tried it, you go do
(55:03):
a store demo. It's transformational. It literally makes it very cool.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
I will say it is.
Speaker 4 (55:08):
But it's three thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
Yeah, it's a little bit clunky. If they can get
it down to what O'Ryan looks like it could be now.
Speaker 4 (55:17):
I actually my child, I actually think they should make
it more expensive. But here's my thought. But make it
more expensive. Well maybe not necessarily the Apple Vision Pro,
but the VR headsets in general.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
Yeah, they're cheap.
Speaker 4 (55:30):
Now makes them nine for the question, makes them five, six,
ten thousand dollars and turn them into premium experiences, luxury devices,
no entertainment like the arcade.
Speaker 2 (55:43):
That's what That's what Ready Player one was.
Speaker 4 (55:46):
I mean, if you look at the gears, you should
go to you should be able to go to the
mall and try a most like literally the craziest thing
you've ever experienced. You would like a car because it's
it Literally a business buys eight of these.
Speaker 2 (56:00):
And yet see we just gave Elon Musk a new
Tesla product.
Speaker 4 (56:05):
There you go, you're welcome, and it's it's it's business
to business, it's it's consumer, it's retail spaces, it's military,
it's healthcare. And then you fact and now you have
a use case for a lower interesting because it's the
Super Nintendo when I can't have the Arcade at home.
Right right now, we look at the arcade, so there's
(56:26):
no aspiration to it, and there's nothing that tells us
what the future looks like. So it's hard to get excited. Yeah,
and it's going to be like the future. Vr AR
is in business to business.
Speaker 2 (56:37):
Well listen, Alejandro, and it has been great having you
on this podcast today. Man, what a great conversation. And
I think for all of you guys out there in
the restaurant business, or in the retail business or fashion,
whatever you are and you're listening to this podcast. These
are the kind of guests that we bring to you
to talk about rethinking the future on whether it's marketing, branding,
(56:59):
obviously these tech stacks that are starting to play into that.
But Alejandro has been great having you on. Thank you
for coming into rocking my restaurant.
Speaker 4 (57:07):
Thank you so much for having me this is I'm
enjoying you the time. I'm still you know, on the
search for a permanent home following all the sabbatical has
been a joy, but I definitely am now feeling itching
to like let's let's get get in there and thank
you man, this is This is a great conversation and
I had a lot of fun. So thank you for
(57:27):
having me.
Speaker 2 (57:28):
Excellent you bet, thank you, Thank you all right, Shelly
another fantastic guest for this show. What did you think
about the interview?
Speaker 4 (57:37):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (57:37):
Man, you know, great, great content. I think you guys
could have gone on another two or three hours, no
doubt on differents.
Speaker 2 (57:46):
You know that looking at it so much perception, Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (57:50):
It's that's what's always you know, It's one of the
things I love every conversation with him, because just that
you know, being able to turn it on the coin
on all sides and really you know, dice it apart.
Speaker 4 (58:04):
He's a master at it, and you know that what
are you going to think about?
Speaker 2 (58:07):
So I thoroughly enjoyed that conversation. Very cool stuff too.
I love the NATO of the food service and the
cross possibly you know, companies working together for a centralized
loyalty platform, which is very similar to what you guys
are doing at Devour. You know, for the capability at
least for online food ordering, which is a huge sector.
(58:29):
So it's going to be great. We are going to
continue our coverage here on Rock My Restaurant. If you
guys are not tuned into our podcast and you're watching
us on YouTube right now, you can also find us
on Spotify and on Apple iTunes or Apple Podcasts as
well as Guess What Podcasting two apps like podcasts Guru.
(58:51):
We are available over there as well. And of course,
if you're not subscribed to the show, what are you doing?
Just go ahead and hit the subscribe button right now
and we'll catch you next time. I'm right here, Unrock
my Restaurant, M
Turn of the volume and subscribe now to Rock My Restaurant,
the podcast setting your brand on fire for you. Come
into you live every week. Branding, marketing, innovative tech, don't
get left behind the future is now.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome into another episode of Rock My Restaurant, And of
course today we are going to dive into, of course,
gaming and how loyalty, gaming and branding are all intersecting.
Of course, joining me is my co host, Miss Shelley Rupel.
How's it going, Paul, It's going good? Good, Yeah, I
know you guys are doing a lot of work. I
see so much stuff coming in from the Discord group
(00:43):
off off of what Devour is doing. I mean, first
of all, how the heck do you keep up with
that discord? That Discord group is constantly buzzing over there.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Yeah, it's a you know, I think maybe we've talked
about that a time or two. That is the difference
having a community, you know, versus just starting a business
and you know, see how you can grow it when
you've got to keep connected there.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
It's a lot, but it's good.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
It also, you know, most days keeps me energized as well,
just to see their excitement.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Well, I think between you know, Telegram, discord, all of
the different platforms out there that many brands are starting
to use to create those communities. This is starting to migrate,
i think, into gaming culture much more where brands are
finally connecting you know, the dots. So our guest today
(01:33):
is going to be fun to talk to. When you
when you got Alejandro contacted, I mean, what was it
that you did to lure him into this podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
So we've had the opportunity and pleasure to get to
know Alejandro. I think it was maybe May of this year.
He came in, did a couple of workshop sessions with
our entire team. His backgrounded activision that that build to
educate our team on somebody that you know, that has
worked at you know, a company and on the inside
(02:05):
and you know the market insights and competitive intelligence work
he did. So one of our advisors had worked with
him where they were close contacts. Luckily brought him in, Uh,
you know, was so impressed with him, and then we've
continued to work together and I'm hoping we can you know,
bring him on to be an ongoing resource for Devour
(02:27):
as well.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, well let's get him on the show here. Transitioning
in mister Alejandro marin Vida, how are you a man?
Speaker 4 (02:36):
I'm doing well. Thank you for.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Having me, and this is going to be a good conversation,
I hope, so, I hope you well. First of all,
give our guests a little bit and our audience a
little bit of background er, you know, to where you've
kind of come from and what you're doing now.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Yeah. I took the long road into gaming, so I Uh,
I was always a lifetime gamer. I grew up internationally.
I was one of those people that bounced around with
family pretty much that most continents. But I always loved gaming. Man.
I graduated in film, I did an MBA, I did
(03:15):
a PhD in management science focusing consumer behavior.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
I was always kind of trying to get into the
business side of entertainment. As much as I love creative work,
I'm also an immigrant and so you know, uh, that
was harder to get a visa and planning your career
through the creative side of it. Business side felt a
little bit more viable for me, and so I was
(03:42):
one of those people. It was just like running alongside
the train. I was just like, I want to I
want to hop on that train, and I don't know
how to make a jump, but we're just going to
keep running. And after my PhD, I had the fortune
of finding a role at the Boston Consulting Group and
so I was a consultant that for I was a
consultant and then project leader for about five years. And
(04:04):
then in twenty eighteen, I just I was finally sitting
on I had my green card, I had what I
felt was finally a compelling enough CV where I just
was like, it's now or never. Yeah, twenty eighteen, I
just made the call of let's spend the year trying
(04:24):
to get into this industry and we're going to figure
it out and if it works, great, and if not,
then you know, we gave it the old college try.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
So you spent that time in Activision and then that's
what Activision.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
So after in twenty eighteen, I'm in that scary transition
period and I make the leap, and fortunately I find
this role at Activision where a former consultant was running
a strategy team. There. I was looking for people with
the background like mine consulting, gaming knowledge, data knowledge to
(04:58):
help run sort of the consultant the strategy, but more
market oriented long term strategy thinking and incubation work, and
so I did that, was in that team for about
two and a half years, and then was asked to
run it essentially build a team called market Insights and
Competitive Intelligence, and I ran that for another years, and
(05:20):
so I was an activision total some total six years,
all the way through the acquisition, post acquisition, and then unfortunately,
when all the giant layoffs happened, I was one of
the nineteen hundred and that that first batch. But it,
you know, it was kind of one of those like
(05:41):
blessings in disguise in some ways for me. I was
very fortunate that a from consulting time, I kind of
saw it coming, so had a bit of a was
able to strategize around it. But also just it was
the first time that I'd ever had really a runway
to breathe. And so I decided, you know what, like
this is a good sign. You know, sometimes you just
(06:02):
take things as they come. And I said, well, let's
turn this into a sabbatical. Let's let's just.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
March.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Let's let's let's take take a beat now that we
have the luxury of time for once. And yeah, so
I've been essentially trying to stay busy in other aspects
of life, and so I've been doing smaller projects creative outlets.
(06:30):
I've been doing things and music and things like that,
but I've also stayed connected in gaming, trying to just
kind of lend my brain to where it can be beneficial.
And so I had the opportunity to teach them courses
at Cornell earlier this year. They have a game design program,
so I got to be a visiting sort of guest
lecture advisor in there, reviewing all the student pitches, met
(06:51):
the wonderful Grine club there, advised some students over the summer.
I gave a talk there as an alumni of program,
not of game design, which they had that when I graduated.
And then I've also been acting as a senior advisor
for new Zoo, which is one of the leading research
firms in the games industry, and so I've been working
(07:13):
with them very closely to just get pass along perspective
from client side, but also to just sort of share
additional thoughts on how to refine where they can potentially
just evolve the product the forecast reporting. And it's an
incredible team, brilliant people, and so I've just been really
(07:36):
fortunate to be able to just be in there and
help them level up. I mean, at the end of
the day, that's what I want to do.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Yeah, you've kind of hit on on a lot of
things there, I think that we've got to unpack in
this episode. One that I thought was interesting was the
consumer science connection because that is something that I think
works in so many different industries. We get a chance
to see it in the restaurant industry quite a bit.
You know, how gamify something, how do you create a
loyal brand person, which is like a loyal game player.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
How do you get that.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Interaction where they share it with others, you know, bring
in their you know, their crew. So that's an intriguing
component I think you know in retail today, Shelley, I
know you guys have done a really good job with
that because you've got a very rabid community around the
Devour app. And then at the same time you're starting
to transition to kind of this game connection that brands
(08:30):
are starting to understand. Do you feel like brands kind
of have the insight to what's really going on here
in terms of community building.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Yeah, I think you know, early on right there, there's
always been that traditional how did they promote, how do
they keep customers coming back? How you know, campaigns, things
like that, But actually building community they are very you know,
there are a few of them that have really tapped
into that and are exploding. I think we mentioned Dave's
Hot Chicken a lot and just you know, their explosion
(09:04):
on social media versus you know, the number of actual
physical locations they have at this point. And it's hard,
right especially when you when you look in the gaming
culture and gaming community. They you know, their motivations, it's
similar and yet very different, and they move you know
together in a lot of ways as far as you know,
how they react to two different things. That's that's one
(09:26):
of the places you've really worked to pick Alejandro's brain on,
is you know, learning that because it's a you know,
there's a there's a consumer science to it for sure.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
I think the key here right now, at least on
the gaming side, and this is something that we we
have as a topic here on Rock My Restaurant, but
we also talk about it over on PBN, and that
is kind of this evolution from Web two to Web three,
So you see some movement there and I know, Shelley,
(09:58):
you're all in on Web three Alejandro, he kind of
comes from the Web two world. And then, you know,
we had this big crack in the matrix that occurred
a couple of weeks ago when Off the Grid launches,
and I've had a chance to get in on this game,
and I feel like it it's one of those games
that's that maybe it is the game that will make
(10:20):
the change going forward. I still am questioning whether or
not that is going to happen. But Alejandra, I want
your insight on that, because you think about the gaming
mindset today and you have this battle between Web three
gaming and Web two gaming, it's really built around the
tokenization and the earning of you know, whether it's NFTs
(10:40):
or you know, in game rewards. Do you think we're
ever going to see that finally the walls come down.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
Between the two. It's very, very bearish on that. I
have a hard time seeing a scenario where Web three
gaming hits the same levels of scale that what we
you know, what would be called traditional games it looks
like right now, yeah uh. And a big part of
(11:09):
that is just the nature of the medium, right because
I think that with gaming, there is a utopian view
of oh if if if if if, if they just
embrace Web three, then I can buy this year, and
I can take my gun and I can move it
over here, or I can find and move it over here.
(11:29):
You know. It's it's that promise of the thing that
I purchase now I own, and it exists on this
external ledger and it transfers across things. The challenge with
that is what we were talking about earlier as well,
which is branding, which is intellectual property management. Every game,
in its own way is a walled empire by design
(11:52):
because it's part of the economy. It's you look at Steam,
they have almost a Web three type ecosystem all ready,
where within the publisher's ecosystem, I can buy a gun
in one game, and then I can I might not
necessarily be able to use it in another game, but
I can trade it for an item in another game
(12:13):
in a marketplace. So all the functionality of Web three exists,
but it's within a walled garden. That's the owner of
those games that participate give its blessing too, and so
they control the what is going to show up. Because
at the end of the day, IP matters so much
(12:34):
and so if you think about it, it's kind of
like if we imagined a world where if I went
to the movie and went to see Deadpool and Wolverine,
and I paid enough, I got to own Deadpool and
I can now put him in Superman.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Right.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Like, that's not going to work for Warner and Marble ever,
because they want such control over these things. And with gaming,
every element of the game is part of the branding,
right from the medics to the weapons to everything. And
so I would imagine that what may happen is a
(13:10):
hybrid model wherein publishers start to create within their ecosystems,
perhaps a ten year view, where a PlayStation says across
all PlayStation games, these things are transferable. But there's just
a barrier of.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Saying if I, you know, again just using well, then well,
within the ecosystems, I think it does make sense. You know,
you're right, there are some that would know that direction.
I think the thing that is going to maybe shift
that though, is where we see the ar VR transition.
I mean, I'm just showing some footage here from Ready
(13:50):
Player one, but the concept behind, you know, the potential
of what ARVR could be. And of course if you
think about what Zuckerberg is doing. I mean, he's stepping
into that kind of interoperable thought process. I've heard him
say this many times on podcasts. Is that they're really
going to open up now. That's the real question. Is
(14:10):
it will Meta truly become a new gaming powerhouse or
just more of a productivity tool. We just don't know
because there hasn't been any you know, other than a
handful of sports games. But I've been playing more and
more with this metaquest and it, to me, is almost
as addictive as a good, really good game economy. And
(14:33):
I think what's interesting to me is it's just getting started.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
It's just beginning. What do you think about that? Well,
I would challenge that it's just starting. On the ARVR side,
I think for the last decade we've been saying that
VR is the next big thing, right, And I'm nervous
that ARVR is more like Fetch and Mean Girls, which
is just a thing that people are going to say
(14:58):
is going to happen, but will never happen because there's
an issue where you see the install based growing. There
are more units being sold, yes, but you're not seeing
the software go up. Yeah, for me, when I see
those numbers, it just tells me that the same cohort
of people are just updating their hardware. So you're essentially
selling more to the same population that's already bought into
(15:19):
the tech. But there's a lot of it barriers to
consumer adoption. And I want to go to the metaverse
point because I think we've been here before. I want
to say, probably twenty years ago now Linden Labs between remembers. Yeah,
remember London Labs and Second Life. It was the same,
(15:40):
It was the same premise, and we saw the same
gold rush, and you see it was on the cover
of the Economists and people were talking about Second Life,
and you had political rallies in a Second Life island,
and you had companies that were investing in Second Life developers,
and it was as this thing. It never materialized. The
(16:03):
challenge is it goes to IP I just IP is
king and when you go into something like a metaverse
that is all user generated.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah, I think the difference between that you think about
twenty years of gaming and probably Gen X my generation,
one of the core gramming groups, but we were really
a small generation. Then you have Gen Y, the millennials.
They have really I think they are truly the maybe
the genesis of true next level gaming. And now you
(16:36):
know with uh with gen z. You know, I've got
a couple of Jena Alpha running around the house over here,
and you know it's I'm watching their behavior back to
your consumer behavior, and I you know, I see them
pick up the medquests. I see him jump on the Xbox,
I see him get into the PC. You know, he's
very she and he. They're very multi dimensional in terms
(16:58):
of and they don't have This is the thing that
is interesting to me. They don't have affinity for one
or the other. But to your point, they follow the
ip So roadblocks will be on the iPad, then it's
over on the Xbox and then some you know. So
it's very intriguing that the platform could become ubiguous.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
You know, if you asked me about my crystal ball
in gaming, and I love this because the other thing
you mentioned was restaurants, and so I think about this
as well. Is everybody eats, right, and so there's not
a restaurant market, Like there's not an audience for restaurants.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
It's like hair, right, it's air, we all.
Speaker 4 (17:41):
Breathe, we all eat, and so you talk about Dave's
Hot Chicken. That's kind of like fast premium. We have
fast food, you have McDonald's, you have a Dave's Hot Chicken,
you have In and Out, you have shake Shack, and
then you all the way up to like a poohole, right,
and they all have communities, but the brand, the expectation
that you state. One is a thing I'm going to
(18:02):
eat every day to substitute my meals and my doctor
will hate me. The other is a thing I might
eat at once in my life, and I'm going to
aspire to it, right, and it's going to be incredible,
And I'm willing to spend ten dollars a year, probably
not twenty dollars because everything went in, but you're going
to spend three hundred dollars over here, right, And now
(18:24):
that you're talking about the millennials forward, but gaming I saw.
I believe it was Newszoo put out the statistic not
too long ago that they estimate eighty percent of the
online population play video games like literally if if you're
on the air.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, the numbers are continuing to skyrocket, but you know
it because of those emerging you know, those emerging demos
that are really taken over right now. Gen Z is
a big part of a gen A will be right
behind them.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
Max is also heavy on mobile and Solar Boomers, and
they're very heavy on Candy Crush and other mobile games.
But so it becomes more like television. It becomes like
restaurants where where it's not a one segment anymore. And
(19:11):
I think that's so fascinating to be able to parse it.
And when we think about Web three, you know, I
think a lot of times when we talk about the
conversation of ar VR web three, is it going to
like Indiana Jones the pedestal? Are we going to like
swab from this game to this game? Magically, I don't
think that's where we're That ship has sailed of substitution
(19:32):
at this point. I think it's will this, Will this
coexist with other verticals? Right? Will television display cinema? No,
we know that now. Instead we have different models and
so much like how YouTube hasn't killed television, it's just
created a different there's an audience that seeks media that way.
(19:54):
There may be a segment that perhaps with roadblocks the
generation that's grown up, where it's the content less than
the IP. Yeah, like the Roadblocks ecosystem, but they're not
really attached to the roadblocks. Guy, there's no like character,
there's no story to Roadblocks. It's a lot of little experiences.
It's a theme park. Maybe there could be a world
(20:15):
where a Web three type roadblocks exists. Yeah, but the
big promise that like I'm going to play in this
game and I'm going to earn these things, I'm going
to be able to take them from here elsewhere is
going to be very hard to materialize because that elsewhere
is going to have to say, yeah, you can bring
your thing into my carefully curated ecosystem.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, I think that. Well, you know, I don't know.
I'm gonna I would disagree. I would disagree in the
sense that you know, I'm watching you know, these cross
generational behaviors. You know, we cover a lot in the
gaming space where we're looking at Web two, we look
at Web three, we look at where blockchain is going.
(20:58):
The capability of what blockchain represents. Every game should be
using it today. You know, even if you're going to
stay within your walls as brand ip, just the ability
to you know, put ownership on a ledger and have
an immutable track of that is very critical and of
course any IP and of course we're seeing this now
(21:19):
with Nike and what they've been able to do with
artifact and an unbelievable I saw the number the other day,
what was almost six hundred billion they're claiming, not them
in general, but six hundred billion in their space what
they call interactive branding and marketing, which is going to
be through gaming and through some of these other whether
(21:41):
it's an NT or whatever you want to call it.
Brand IP ownership six hundred billion by twenty twenty eight,
So just literally around the corner. Pretty crazy numbers within that.
And with that being the case, I think the question
back to your point on roadblocks, You're exactly right. It
(22:02):
doesn't have that brand IP that is lockable in, you know,
like Master Sergeant or you know, lockable in to certain components,
you know, because you get the gamers that you know,
kind of you have gamers who are Diablo gamers, you
have gamers who are you know, Call of Duty gamers,
and that's their game, that's what they lock in on.
(22:24):
So it's going to be intriguing to see if brands
can kind of transition that. And we see a lot
of restaurant brands starting to make that leap into you know,
I know, well it was tech and eight and there
was a couple others that they were working with, you know, yeah,
so so Shelley, I guess this question is for you
(22:45):
when you look at the brands that do just like
what Alejandro's alluding to, is this brand IP locking in
on you know, things like that. You're working with a
lot of these brands who are trying to integrate that. Jeff,
you know, of course we know uh infamously from Wobbout
integrating into orldblocks. But there are other brands now out there,
(23:07):
I know you're working with that are also looking at
other alternatives. What's what, in your opinion, is causing a
brand to choose one IP over the other? What one
IP or that like entering into three? Well like, for instance,
there's so many you look at Overwolf in your partnership
there you have, I mean, what is that thousands of
(23:28):
games available on that right now?
Speaker 4 (23:29):
Right? Yes? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:31):
How would you a brand? You know, I'm a restaurant brand,
I'm a Dave's Hot Chicken. How do I pick the
right ecosystem that matches up with me?
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Oh? Chickens? Right?
Speaker 3 (23:43):
And that that's an interesting conversation. At some point I
want to I want to also come back and give
my opinion on the AR ar v R that as well.
But on the brand, yes, I mean that is important
to them, right. That's been part of the conversation with
with Dave's is that protection of I p for what
they choose or don't choose to to, you know, do
(24:05):
a collaboration with and wanting to be very sure before
before they do. I think there's that other aspect and
Paul you were saying it of you know, every game
should be using it on some level when you look
at marketing, when we look at it from a restaurant perspective,
that ability if it is on chain to then do
(24:25):
the collaborations, uh you know call of Duty and uh
Little Caesars that that you know they've been doing this
collaboration for the last few years. The purchase has to
start on the Little Caesar side to flow through versus
a play to get model where because it's on on chain,
(24:46):
things like that, you can trigger a promotion you know
who who then has redeemed it. If they want to
share that promotion with someone else, they can you know,
those types of things. That's where this value I believe
of a blockchain Web three. I feel that kind of
same way about ar VR, and we talk about it
(25:07):
so much of there's going to be this defined line
where we go from this world to it being very
very different. I'm looking at it more and more that it's.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Just part of the tech stack, right, there's so much
other thing.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
It is our daily life, and I've been you know,
really for even Web three we do, we are really
Web two point five.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
We do a lot Web two. We leverage the power
of Web three, but it's just part of our tech stack.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
I don't talk everything about Google being our infrastructure, right,
And so that for me is where I feel a
lot more that it'll go versus identifying as one or
the other. And I think brands will embrace that more
when that kind of is the narrative versus they have
to make a choice to be on one side of
(25:55):
the line or the other.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Alejandro. You know, that gets us into some things around
the influencers and kind of what their impact on gaming
has been. And if you look at social and the
birth of where social media really began around two thousand
and seven with both Twitter, Facebook, that I would say
those were the mature ones that evolved out of friends
to and MySpace and all that coming out of that,
(26:20):
And now where we are today and the discussion of
possibly a federated social platform or some sort of open
source concept. Now blockchain has been looked at as there.
There's also a kind of a handful of developers trying
to build something in kind of like what RSS is
(26:40):
doing with podcasting. Do you think that that will create
a new because this goes back to the consumer science side,
do you think that will create a new set of
muscles for us as users? That would because I know
I leap from X to TikTok to Instagram. You know,
(27:04):
it almost just like fluidly boom boom boom boom. Yes,
it's it's that possible because that's very gamified. And if
you think about retail and if now if you layer
in gamification into I know, oh, he's pulling his hair back.
Now he's going to get serious. I love it. So
tell me, tell me how that could possibly format in
(27:27):
the future.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
I have a very hard time seeing it. I see
influencers as just another marketing item, like the reality is.
I think my hot take is that influencers are twenty
in twenty twenty in the twenty twenties are like the
MTV VJs in the late eighties early nineties. Oh there
then everybody wanted to be a VJ and everyone knew
(27:50):
Carson Daley and Sway and Hurry all of the names, right, God,
I can't remember all the names at this point, but
like we used to know them. They were all households
and they were influential and we aspired to them, and
now it did. Like three of them are on satellite
radio and the rest are like bailed on the industry
(28:13):
when you saw. Like the reason that I say this
is influencers are extremely fungible. So when Microsoft was trying
to counter Twitch, they had their platform Mixer, which you know,
rest in Peace, it has a lot of great technology
in there. They spent a fortune to poach some of
the top streamers at the time. And if you'll remember,
there's a guy called Ninja and he was the number
(28:34):
one streamer in Fortnite. He leaves Twitch moves to Mixer.
This guy was commanding hundreds of thousands of views. Moves
to Mixer. That number goes down to ten thousand, and
the overall Fortnite viewership didn't change. On Twitch literally left
the hole and then everyone just went, ah that, I'll
just go see somebody else play tow it.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah, it's the dominance of the platform at the time.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
But it's also how fung your is. The people are
seeing the game, and yeah, the person who plays the
game is charming and great for the most part, but
it's really the IP just here. Then they're just going
to click on the next box because next and there's
tens of thousands of people screaming.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Well, I think that the concept I'm getting at is
not necessarily the individual, but the concept of whether it's
the influencer or the platform functionality. Much like to your
point with the IP, you know, I just wonder on
a day, at some point, does Meta finally open that
(29:38):
up and enable I mean, they kind of have done
it with Instagram WhatsApp to a certain extent, but it's
not nefit necessarily open. It's still wall gardens. You know,
x as a wall garden. TikTok is a wall garden.
And I guess at some point the question is is
do we see a gaming ecosystem just become so powerful,
(29:59):
whether it's an epic or what's happening with Steam that
they just become the center of the universe.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
It's going to be hard because, as you mentioned, we're
so used to now multi ecosystem realities. Yea, every single
one of these is so large, Like I mean just
video game software alone, if you talk about mobile, PC
and console twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, like I mean,
it's it's about one hundred and eighty billion dollars right
(30:29):
now as an answer, right, and and it's it's not
like spread out across one hundred and eighty plus companies.
It's it's a handful of people own a giant chair
of the pie. I don't see a world in which
any of these privately or publicly owned companies say, ah, yes,
(30:49):
like our investors are board, are our everybody is going
to be comfortable with us suddenly giving away our competitive advantage,
Uh yeah, eroding the IP the brand value, right, Like
I don't think that, you know, Like, Okay, So there's
there's a there's an institutional problem just in the nature
(31:13):
of just capitalism and how these things work. But I
also just go back to a little bit of what
you were saying with your children, where you were saying
that they just flow, right, and I think it will
flow between things. And I also just wanted to reflect
on what you mentioned, like, well, there's Call of Duty
players and then there's these kinds of players. But with
gaming and just with entertainment in general, we're not We
(31:37):
no longer live in a world where it's like Chevy Ford.
You know. It's like I'm a Chevy guy, I'm a
Ford guy, and that's my thing. Right, It's like people
who play Call of Duty also play Fortnite and also
play other games. They just spent Fortnite. When we look
at the broader data, like when we look at the
you have, when you have hundreds of millions of people playing,
(31:58):
they have tens of people playing, you're going to have
like a core that's going to be like, we only
play this game, but in order to hit those tens
and hundreds of millions, right, Like you're getting into like
how many people only watch CSI, Right, how many people
only watch the Big Bang Theory? Right? Like that's what
we're starting to talk about.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Sure, the rotation of the IP I get that, you know.
Speaker 4 (32:21):
The experience of the entertainment of the of the stimulus,
right of the dopamine at the end of the day.
It's a lot of this is just where do we
get our daily dopamine? And when we stop getting our
dopamine hits from this one, I got to open the
next app. That's why we don't scroll because well this
is we go to Reddit and then we run out
of juice in that reddit and.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
We move back exactly. Yeah, And I guess my question
is this because are we at that area where because
we see this in the restaurant space where there's cycles
where a certain sector of the industry is consumed by
a new emerging sector. You know, in the foods service
industry and the restaurant business, it was fast casual. It
(33:04):
took over in nineteen ninety six from up to around
twenty ten, and then it exploded and it is now
everything you know if it's fast casual, upscale dining, or
fast food, and fast casual is by far the fastest
growing out there continuously. And that's the Chipotles of the world,
the Panaros, et cetera. You know, Dave's Hot Chicken. So
(33:27):
but my point is is that I'm getting at is
that if you look at the emergent because all those
brands were little bitty guys. You know, it's like the independent,
it's like the indie game developer. Okay, they're little bitty guys,
but all of a sudden, collectively, they have displaced a
trillion dollar industry, a trillion dollar industry that's the restaurant industry.
(33:51):
So my question is when you look at gaming or
you know, social to the extent that we're dealing with.
Now back to your point of saying, no, no, these
big guys aren't going to want to, you know, release
that brand eyp. But at some point neither did Taco
Bell want to release the brand Ipeda Mexican, but they
(34:13):
lost it to Chipotle. And if you look at it
from the point of I think there's some young guys,
young women, young people that are designing and developing that
may create the next thing, you know, as they're going
to get kicked out anyway, they're going to grow MySpace away.
Speaker 4 (34:33):
We're absolutely do I think that across the board, across cinema,
across entertainment, across teaming. Where what I was talking about earlier, right,
these big companies that are so focused on and rightfully so,
that the duty to grow the company protect the shareholder
interests protect the empes as much as they can. Like,
(34:56):
that's the goal, right it is, like safe de risk.
That's what got us into the dreadful eighties of cinema
where everything was flashboard and just safe. Betsy, that's where
everything right now is safe. Ip. So to your point,
there's one hundred percent and we're due for a rock.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
It's turning.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
It's generational, like just something has to get.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Like if you think if I don't know, if you
guys remember the company Rim. Do you remember Rim Technology?
Speaker 4 (35:30):
Yeah? So Rim was the.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Creator of the BlackBerry.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
Yes, yes, and they you know I was.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
I was a young developer coming out of Silicon Valley
working with Microsoft, and Rim was our arch nemesis because
we were building what we thought was going to be
the next iPhone at the time with the Microsoft. Little
did we know that some some idiot named Steve Jobs
would come up with something you know a little better.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
The microphone. I like the micro phone, by the way,
I thought the phono ass was pretty slick. It was.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
It was a great phone.
Speaker 4 (36:02):
Man.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
And listen, I was even on the Zoom. Do you
remember the Zoom.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
I was about to say, shout out to the zoom.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I love ourselves down.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
H Yeah. I like I like archaic technology that we
got and that goes the marketing and it goes to
change management and and and at the end of the day,
like it was, there's a degree of simplicity that's essential, right.
I think a lot of those products were engineering first
(36:35):
and great tons of gadgets, tons of things, whereas the
iPhone was just like, it works, that's it. It's it's
it's simple, it's easy. And so you can go from
this to that.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
That That brings me back to the kind of full
circle here, Shelley to you is that's exactly what I
feel like is happening with restaurants today. Is you have
the people who are like the Jeff Alexander's, the Dave's
Hot Chickens, the you know, the guys are over at Doghouse.
Even then you have McDonald's Chipotle, some which are starting
(37:08):
to wait a little bit out there into gaming integration.
You know, there's a lot of them that have not
stepped over just yet. So I'm questioning whether or not
are we at a point where there is a breed
of brands, restaurant brands, retail brands, all kinds of brands
that are ready to just leap forward and become the
(37:30):
new thing because of their integration into all these new techs.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Right, I very possibly sow. And I love the BlackBerry
losing signals story. Right, you can't imagine until you do.
In the you know, early two thousands, nobody could have
imagined giving up their BlackBerry or that they would basically
be gone within you know, a decade, And that experience,
(37:56):
that transition of experience was that didn't happen till it
did till there, until there was that understanding of what
could be so different. And I think that is the
same thing you know with with restaurants, gaming, the immersive gamification,
all of that. Yeah, you have your tip of the
sphere and crossing the chasm. You have you know, the
(38:16):
the the middle ground in your laggards, but it's we're
still very early on that on the front end of
that chasm. But you know, gamification, that tie over between
the gaming industry and the restaurants, you know that that's
something I know love, I know we're almost up to
time here, but yeah, you know, we love Alejandro's opinion
(38:38):
on that of that crossover because there's so much opportunity there.
Speaker 4 (38:42):
It's it's so fascinating to me because I think if
we if we go back to gamification, like we were
talking about loyalty programs at the end of the day,
like most loyalty programs are gamification to an extent, complete
white challenge, are and such and such points, reward this
and this, and so I do I do see that
(39:02):
that just becomes a new normal for pretty much all
loyalty programs. And when I think about disruption in this space,
the big challenge that we run into is what we're
starting to see across gaming and what we're starting to
see across h you know, subscription services, which is just
people are starting to get tired of too many subscriptions,
(39:25):
too many. If everything is nified, then it's exhausted. I
have to check in on every single one of my
apps every day. I have to, you know, if you
start to almost make a weird decision paralysis element of like,
oh man, but if I if I order it from
this restaurant, then I'm going to lose my streak on
this restaurant. And you know, I like that the dual
(39:47):
only works so well if but if everyone is badgering
you to log in to order to what are you
going to miss out on? I think we'll we're heading
to a potential fatigue point where when we talk about
tech stack and we talk about opportunities and where there
might be room for Web three kind of thing is
like a centralized loyalty, like some sort of a like
(40:10):
a universal reward system, a universal gamification, something that now
makes it so that people can participate with less stress. Right.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
I think there's been a few people talking about that before. Right,
How do you think that I want to get you
because you're you're in tune to this strategic development. How
do you think that could happen? What would have to
occur with brands? You think Starbucks, McDonald's, I mean both
of them have these massive loyalty programs.
Speaker 4 (40:41):
Yes, I think what would have to happen is, Look,
it won't happen until consumers start voting with their time
and their wallets. And I think what has to happen
is a point of failure. That's usually what creates a cataclysm.
Share is when when you know you see green the whole,
(41:04):
like investment in green energy coincided with the collapse of
the price of oil. It wasn't an altruism thing. The
holy crap, like, we need to find new lines of
business because otherwise we're going to have to let go
of fifty percent of our workforce because that was literally
how much the press crew dropped about ten years ago.
And so similarly, I think until people start cutting the cord,
(41:25):
until people start saying enough is enough. Right, we're starting
to see this with how many subscription services when we
talk about your Netflix is, your Hulu's, your Disney pluses,
we're coming full circle back to cable because people got
so fed up with having to manage fifteen different subscriptions.
Yeah different now like hey now we have a Disney
ESPN Hulu bundle, now we have this this, and so
(41:49):
we're back to cable, like we've literally come full circle.
And so similarly, I think that we're going to unfortunately
stretch people's times in that eventually that rubber band is
going to snap, and when that does, I think that
there's gonna be Look, the McDonald's and the Starbucks is
they'll probably be fine because while the industry has been
(42:12):
disrupted in terms of yeah, they're not the bell of
the ball anymore. I mean talk about still doing an
ri for itself in terms of retail locations, in terms
of year on year revenue. McDonald's is shutting down some locations,
but they seem to have stabbed, stabilized, and they're doing okay,
especially when you take a point of view of things.
So it's almost like you're going to have these giants.
(42:36):
But where I think the consolidation and the opportunity is
going to happen is how these these what is the ecosystem,
what is the union of what is the what is
the European Union of fast casual? What is the what
is the NATO?
Speaker 2 (42:51):
That's a good one like that.
Speaker 4 (42:53):
So when I think about that, that's where I imagine
that's what will happen is when when you have collect
to bargaining, when you have you know what I remember
I learned this turn. It's such a silly like one
of those like business buzzworthy words, But I like the
idea of co opetition, right, which is we we still
operate into this world of zero sum. You have to
(43:14):
lose for me to bring, right, That's that's a you
know we're talking about this people gaming. This has to
die so that this can be disrupted, right like this
this loses, this wins, and I think that there's a
better model. And and for me, the model is like, look,
we can still compete, but maybe let's build something together
(43:37):
that is stronger, right, ape together strong, right. And so
that's where I think about when you start to see
you know, when I think about cinema, when I look
at film, one of the things that I think is, so,
I bet you executives today hate it. But the fact
that the I can't remember how long ago the film
industry said hey, let's just make all box office gross public.
(43:57):
The consumer can be informed on how much money is
a moving are making everybody sense. It becomes a cause, right,
Like how many movies now come out where people go, oh, man, like,
let's go and see it again so we can help
it break whatever record. Right. It's like people are literally
voting with their wallets to get the sequel to the movie.
They want to get this kind of thing. But that
require all the studios to come together and say, I
(44:20):
guess we're all going to disclose this stuff now. And
that's super scary. Similar, But that came about in an
era where cinema was struggling, right the seventies sixties, United
Artists collapsed you had a lot of collapse of studio.
So similarly, I think at a crisis point, somebody is
going to come out and say, hey, y'all, we're going
(44:41):
to survive this together or we're not going to survive
this at all. And when that happened, there will be
an opportunity for a disruptor to come in and say, hey, y'all,
you focus on doing you food, gaming, whatever. We'll create
the network that's going to help the blockchain, the Web
(45:01):
three implementation that goes into the tech stack that then
everyone can have listen, you do you we focus on this,
This will give you consumer loyalty, but it will do
it in a way that is sustainable, so that we're
not just throwing another subscription at the pile. That's my
noster damis crystal ball like what would have to happen.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
But I don't necessarily that's an intriguing concept too, because
I do think there are some brands that might, you know,
want to create the NATO of it uh and then
figure out a way to integrate to each other through
some sort of centralized loyalty or so you think about
the ability to leverage marketing gamification, you know, because that
(45:46):
could also lift itself. It's very it's very socialist.
Speaker 4 (45:49):
Though socialist. Let's just say that. I think I think
that I would actually say that the other way is
very feudalist.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (46:01):
I think that we've confused capitalism and feudalism because I
think we are currently in the fiefdom of Bezos, in
the fiefdom of Musk and the fifstom of right like
you have these and we are in theirs, and we
have CEOs as lords now, but we don't. But but
(46:21):
I don't think that we have what used to be capitalism.
And I do think that shared supply lines that used
to be a thing. There wasn't anything. I did a
silk road, right, like, there's that's not socialism, that's just efficiency.
I started it, and I.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Said, I started a group like this. This is a
funny conversation. I started a group like this in what
was the two thousand and six I think it was,
And we we built the Fast Casual Alliance. And the
idea was we took all these CEOs of these emerging
brands and we said, hey, let's come together, let's try
to create a buying group. Let's try to create you know,
(47:00):
an activist group from a loyal from a lobby standpoint,
because the industry was very small at the time and
we weren't getting very much credit in DC, you know,
around lawmaking, because there was a lot around tips, there
was a lot around the classification of QSR workers versus
fast food workers and casual dining workers. So there was
(47:22):
a lot of that in the late twenty tens, and
we developed that which eventually got sucked up by the
NRA and is now the council, so it lives today.
There is a NATO of that.
Speaker 4 (47:34):
Oh that was a different NRA. Sorry, it took me
a second.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah, National Restaurant Association. Sorry, Yeah, there is a National
Restaurant Association Council that does that now. So it's kind
of interesting. I'm wondering why that. Why do you think, Shelley,
that the National Restaurant Association hasn't created a national loyalty platform.
Speaker 4 (47:55):
I you know, I think the.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
Rest I think the restaurant industry has been resistant to
it at this point, right, I mean, in travel you
have Expedia or the different In gaming we devour play
is uh, you know, that's a central loyalty with the
you know, tying into the different Yeah, all the different
games and restaurants, right that being able to earn and
(48:19):
then you know, spend it with the restaurants.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
So it's reverse on that.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
But I think I think it's resistance and something's going
to I mean, there is loyalty fatigue.
Speaker 4 (48:30):
We talked about that last week, right the the you.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
Know the am I how many can you be a
part of and earn anything that's mean and meaningful, the
experience of it where something central could but that giving
up control.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
Yeah, man, what a great conversation this is. I want
to get one more topic in because I feel like
we go for a long time loyalty. You know, we're
touching on it, on the boundaries of everything. Gamification is
a big part of loyalty. I think some retail already
starting to figure out how this works. Nike is the
(49:08):
master class on how they've done it with artifact. They've
tied in their you know, the you know, the influencer
sport influencers to it to create these you know, these
branded IP components. Do you think, Hudro, when you look
at the restaurant brands, do you think that they could
someday And you're an expert, you're a master at creating
(49:32):
brand ip for gamification. Why couldn't restaurants do the same
thing brand ip for gamification that they own, you know
that they have.
Speaker 4 (49:43):
I mean, I think you're spot on. I mean, honestly,
I think it's very unusual to me how and I
don't know whether it was some sort of a pushback
to what was considered dated. But we used to I mean,
remember when you used to have the Burger King and
(50:03):
you used to have Grimness and Ronald McDonald and the monopoly.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
I mean, they still kind of have it, but it's
not it hasn't leaped.
Speaker 4 (50:12):
That doesn't really it has a culture, it hasn't evolved,
it hasn't ingrained itself. And I think Shelley nailed it
a little bit too. Whereas there's still the sense of
if I don't control it, then it's not worth doing, right,
if I can't get one hundred percent of it, then
I'd rather get zero. And that is a very unusual
way to think about it. But that's unfortunately the way
(50:34):
that a lot of the culture currently is a.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Well, don't you think though the demographics are shifting enough,
collaboration will will come.
Speaker 4 (50:44):
That's why I think there's also an element of time.
I think there's also an element of generational perspective, because
I do think that as you're mentioning IP becomes more
fungible as the byproduct of everything being multiverse and everything
being cross promotional and signic showing and roadblocks and the
Mario movie being everywhere, and you go to Universal Studios
(51:07):
and now Mario is next door to Homer Simpson, right,
like it's the modern consumer I think sees this brand
exclusivity as a negative, whereas I think the elder, like
the old way of thinks as value time. But I
(51:27):
just mean the previous paradigm was one hundred percent value
or bust, right. And I do think that we will
start to see some of these shifts as you start
to see shifts in generational leadership, generational shareholder ownership, as
the boards turn, as you start to see more people
who are willing to challenge the status quo because what
(51:50):
worked is not necessarily was going to keep working. And
I can't think of it, you know. I mean, if
I think about this generational shift, it's a weird tangent
that it sounds the world wwe before under Vince McMahon
versus after Vince McMahon under the new leader Night and Day.
(52:11):
The previous model was if my my talent leaves my company,
I'm going to soothe the hell out of them. They
don't get to own anything. I'm going to destroy the
territories I'm going to acquire. It was very much this
like law of the Jungle type thinking of like I
have to kill what I eat. McMahon leaves, gets exited,
(52:32):
you know, by and then the new head of creative
comes in, the new chief executive for Yeah, and he
starts saying, nah, man, everyone, we want wrestling as a
whole to grow the platform and talent from rival promotions
and rival television shows, which was unthinkable.
Speaker 2 (52:51):
So that would be interesting to see if Dana White
would do that with UFC.
Speaker 4 (52:55):
Well, they're they're talking about it now. Yeah, because of TKO.
Now they're going to start doing crossover between UFC ANDWE,
which they would have never done.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
When you think about the gaming collaborations that could come
out of that down the road, I mean, I'm just
thinking of the opportunity here, and you could translate that
easy to restaurant brands, I mean, brand collaborations building.
Speaker 4 (53:18):
Man, there's just so much what you were talking about
where it's how does a Dave Hot Chicken pick who?
This is where I think the consumer information comes down to.
Every brand should know who their core audience is. Who
do I bring to the table, right, because I'm if
I'm Dave's Hot Chicken, I know who is my captive audience.
(53:38):
And then who is my adjacent audience who occasionally comes
in and who might come to Hot Chicken but just
hasn't encountered the brand yet?
Speaker 3 (53:45):
Right?
Speaker 4 (53:46):
And then as you look at your partnership, say well,
who's strongest and the types of people who eat Hot
Chicken but don't eat Dave's right right now, because we're
still in this early stage of understanding the value of
existing outside silos, we don't fully understand our consumers. Yeah, good,
understand them in terms of what what movies does my
(54:08):
movie audience?
Speaker 2 (54:09):
You know, it's the old it's the old marketing mechanism
of you know, trying to go in and create lookalike audiences,
those kind of things.
Speaker 4 (54:16):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
To your point, you know, Visa of course now is
piloting this web three customer loyalty platforms. So again you know,
Visa could be the intermedia there there that we're very
low poisoned.
Speaker 4 (54:30):
Yeah, able to do something like that a square anybody
that's already integrated into people's text, we're already crazy. Man.
Speaker 2 (54:39):
Hey listen, I'm telling you. The opportunities are going to
be huge.
Speaker 4 (54:41):
They're going to make massive Oh no, one und I
think that the opportunity my Michael's with ar VR, with
a lot of this stuff. I think the opportunities are massive.
I think right now the focus is on direct to consumer,
and that's where I think it's a misnomer. I think,
for example, dr ar when when you try the Apple
Vision Pro, if you haven't tried it, you go do
(55:03):
a store demo. It's transformational. It literally makes it very cool.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
I will say it is.
Speaker 4 (55:08):
But it's three thousand dollars.
Speaker 2 (55:10):
Yeah, it's a little bit clunky. If they can get
it down to what O'Ryan looks like it could be now.
Speaker 4 (55:17):
I actually my child, I actually think they should make
it more expensive. But here's my thought. But make it
more expensive. Well maybe not necessarily the Apple Vision Pro,
but the VR headsets in general.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
Yeah, they're cheap.
Speaker 4 (55:30):
Now makes them nine for the question, makes them five, six,
ten thousand dollars and turn them into premium experiences, luxury devices,
no entertainment like the arcade.
Speaker 2 (55:43):
That's what That's what Ready Player one was.
Speaker 4 (55:46):
I mean, if you look at the gears, you should
go to you should be able to go to the
mall and try a most like literally the craziest thing
you've ever experienced. You would like a car because it's
it Literally a business buys eight of these.
Speaker 2 (56:00):
And yet see we just gave Elon Musk a new
Tesla product.
Speaker 4 (56:05):
There you go, you're welcome, and it's it's it's business
to business, it's it's consumer, it's retail spaces, it's military,
it's healthcare. And then you fact and now you have
a use case for a lower interesting because it's the
Super Nintendo when I can't have the Arcade at home.
Right right now, we look at the arcade, so there's
(56:26):
no aspiration to it, and there's nothing that tells us
what the future looks like. So it's hard to get excited. Yeah,
and it's going to be like the future. Vr AR
is in business to business.
Speaker 2 (56:37):
Well listen, Alejandro, and it has been great having you
on this podcast today. Man, what a great conversation. And
I think for all of you guys out there in
the restaurant business, or in the retail business or fashion,
whatever you are and you're listening to this podcast. These
are the kind of guests that we bring to you
to talk about rethinking the future on whether it's marketing, branding,
(56:59):
obviously these tech stacks that are starting to play into that.
But Alejandro has been great having you on. Thank you
for coming into rocking my restaurant.
Speaker 4 (57:07):
Thank you so much for having me this is I'm
enjoying you the time. I'm still you know, on the
search for a permanent home following all the sabbatical has
been a joy, but I definitely am now feeling itching
to like let's let's get get in there and thank
you man, this is This is a great conversation and
I had a lot of fun. So thank you for
(57:27):
having me.
Speaker 2 (57:28):
Excellent you bet, thank you, Thank you all right, Shelly
another fantastic guest for this show. What did you think
about the interview?
Speaker 4 (57:37):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (57:37):
Man, you know, great, great content. I think you guys
could have gone on another two or three hours, no
doubt on differents.
Speaker 2 (57:46):
You know that looking at it so much perception, Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (57:50):
It's that's what's always you know, It's one of the
things I love every conversation with him, because just that
you know, being able to turn it on the coin
on all sides and really you know, dice it apart.
Speaker 4 (58:04):
He's a master at it, and you know that what
are you going to think about?
Speaker 2 (58:07):
So I thoroughly enjoyed that conversation. Very cool stuff too.
I love the NATO of the food service and the
cross possibly you know, companies working together for a centralized
loyalty platform, which is very similar to what you guys
are doing at Devour. You know, for the capability at
least for online food ordering, which is a huge sector.
(58:29):
So it's going to be great. We are going to
continue our coverage here on Rock My Restaurant. If you
guys are not tuned into our podcast and you're watching
us on YouTube right now, you can also find us
on Spotify and on Apple iTunes or Apple Podcasts as
well as Guess What Podcasting two apps like podcasts Guru.
(58:51):
We are available over there as well. And of course,
if you're not subscribed to the show, what are you doing?
Just go ahead and hit the subscribe button right now
and we'll catch you next time. I'm right here, Unrock
my Restaurant, M
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