SARCast S3 Ep 3- Training, Bristow Winch-Paramedic and International Search and Rescue

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:32):
Hello and welcome to sarcast, thesearch and Rescue podcast. My name is
Luke stone Street and I am joinedby Richard Prido and mister Ben. How
are we both? I'm good andI'm mister Ben. Hello. Yeah,
it's all good here. I've beenbeen busy, been up in the loft
doing stuff, but I'm okay.Why have you been in the loft?

(00:55):
Loft, attic roof, space ventilation, ducting stuff. Do you know why
you haven't just been hiding out inthe other story of your house? No?
Well, actually I know. Ihave actually been the all day.
It's been going well, a bithandy, are we here than Ben?

(01:15):
With your hands? Not? Notreally? No, is it going okay?
I haven't done your wiring yet,so just getting the bits and then
going to the shop and get somemore bits. So welcome to about you,
rich one. I was gonna say, welcome to Britain's premiere search and
rescue podcasts with hot search and rescuetopics. Where a man talks about being

(01:37):
in a loft. It's what thelisteners asked for. I wonder how many
missing people have been found in aloft though quite a lot more, more
more than you think. Have beenactually pros much as you think have been
found. Yes, you know,the police say, we have searched this
building. Okay, I'm gonna havea quick squeeze round. Oh he's in
the wardrobe. Okay, that's happened. And there's also been those cases where

(02:05):
people have been found. I thinkthere was a inquest into one very very
recently where people have been found incrawl spaces or trapped between two things.
There was the guy trapped between twofence panels recently in the UK. He'd
fallen down there I want to sayintoxicated, but I might be making that
up, and had died upside downand slowly decomposed. There was another one

(02:29):
in the States a few years agowhere somebody had disappeared. They just disappeared
from work one day and never beenseen again. And what they'd actually done
is go up into the loft togo and find some boxes, to find
some old receipts or something, andslip down the crawl space at the side
of the building, so the loftgoes into the gap at the cavity wall
and had fallen down there inverted.And you can't stay inverted for that long.

(02:52):
You do die and then yeah,I presumably just thought it was a
dead possum or something in the wall. Yeah, so I'm fine, it's
bad. Yeah, I've been spendingmost of the day writing risk assessments today
for a client about how not todie on a wind farm. But whichever

(03:12):
wind farm company you think that is, No, it's the other one.
I suppose it's been quite varied.Again. I mean, there's lots of
ways to die on a wind farm, but they have got most of them
sewn up. Now, if youcan jump up and hit the blades,
you're too close. It's not likethe duct tape diagram, is it that

(03:34):
you've had to produce? Does itrequire duct tape? Yes? For some
reason, there's got a vision ofit. Was it trumpedon a windmill?
Yes' wind farm? But yeah,it's probably not too far off actually,
judging by the average, the averagestandard of conversation we have, I'm going

(03:55):
to shut up now because I'm talkingabout client stuff about we probably oddly anyone
anyway, Sorry, we're no,no, no, no, no,
it's absolutely fine. So we getinto it then, have already let's go
over to you then, Ben,Okay, Hello, today I thought we

(04:15):
would talk about training. Everybody's favoritetopic. Everyone will be doing it within
a search and rescue team, eithertraining or providing the training. So I
thought we'd as we've all got experiencesof it, I thought we'll ever a
chat about that tonight. Nice,That's what I thought. So explanation.

(04:38):
Then, I am a training officerfor a loader rescue team in the UK.
My roles are to train new recruitsto required standards, keep the operational
members refreshed and incompetency, et cetera, et cetera, and all the other

(04:59):
things that go along with it.So that's quite keeps me busy. It's
probably one of the busiest roles withinthe team, or be thought being a
training officer. I don't want tobe getting my very small violin out,
but any train officers listening or peopleinvolved in training, it's quite a time
consuming role. I don't know whetherit makes any difference to the amount of
numbers you've got of members, butobviously rich you've had experience of training as

(05:29):
in search and risking. I wasa training officer for a while. I
was a training officer for about ayear and looking back on us, I
don't think I was very good becausethat's my former teammates, whether I think
they'd agree with you. I wasbetter doing operational stuff and some of the
sort of the architecture of training programsrather than just being a training officer.
But I've made my career such asit is, from mostly training people in

(05:57):
the outdoors and outdoor skills of onetype or another, even though it's these
days it's more about how not todie than it is how to how to
do something in particular. But whatI didn't intend to become a trainer.
I didn't intend to become a tutoror a teacher. It's just that when
I had the opportunity to do thosethings, I enjoyed it more than doing

(06:20):
the other stuff. And I likedworking with people and them developing their skills
and seeing a progression, so Istuck with it. But actually within so
as a trainer external to a team, I think I've been okay. Internal
to a team, I wasn't verygood because I didn't know how to do
it. Really I didn't. Iwas still learning how to become a trainer,

(06:45):
and I think being crap at itin a sart team actually made me
a better trainer afterwards. Yeah,I was going to say, did that
sort of help with your progressional attitudeof training later on once you've sort of
done that part of not doing itvery well as you're looking back at it
to almost learning and then going aheadmaking mistakes. I mean that is something

(07:08):
I say time and time again thateverything of value I have to sell is
built on a mistake of mind somewhere. And being within the team allowed me
to make mistakes in training and developingtraining programs, and also just working with
what was handed to me before andrealizing, oh, this doesn't work,

(07:29):
or this worked ten years ago,but it doesn't work now, or it
doesn't work for this new role,this new modality of doing things that in
order to actually follow up and keepdoing that at a high standard, we've
got to change everything fundamentally about whatwe're doing. So learning that what doing

(07:50):
things poorly look like was really usefulbecause then you had something to avoid,
you had a dog tood to steparound. But also there was the this
thing of no, no, thereare multiple ways of achieving the same thing,
achieving the same process. So youfind the right process for that location,

(08:13):
for that person, for that organization, and sometimes you can't make the
process or the framework from one placefit the new place. It has to
work differently, it has to workin a certain way, So you have
to find the right tool for theright for the right problem. Talking of

(08:35):
tools, obviously not company excluded fortraining and things like that, Obviously we
use or use PowerPoint because I dothink it's a good tool using the right
way to get presentations across et cetera. Also online like Zoom or Noodle,

(09:03):
those things like that. So anythingyou'd like to use or stay away from
all, I think it's a bitof a balance. Classroom training for outdoor
skills is one of the most difficultthings I had to work out, because
it's very easy to work down upall these diagrams, all these photos and

(09:24):
have the bullet points and just keepflashing them up on powerpoints and say you
do this, and then you dothis, and then you do this,
and then you do this, andyou realize six minutes into it you've lost
people. But you can't progress tothe outside session in the afternoon because you've
got to get through all this stufffirst anyone's ever to sit through medical stuff,
particularly once you've gone through the basicsof first aid and you kind of

(09:48):
know what you're doing, but youneed a refresher, you need to go,
but you need to go through Thisis the difference between a am I
and this is an angina, andthese are different. You know, if
it's the it's this, if it'sthat, it's that, and go through
all that which you can't really gothrough whilst doing a practical session outdoors.
But really that's what you want practicedoing, is treating casualties, getting hands

(10:13):
on with a casualty, assessing theproblem, going through things, going through
the physics of it. You can'treplicate that properly with PowerPoint, with those
things, so finding ways to makethat interesting, finding ways to make that
engaging has been really hard, butalso making that clear to the students as

(10:37):
well, making it clear that weare doing this for a reason. It's
not just PowerPoint for the sake ofit. You haven't just paid me many
hundreds of pounds to come up hereand hit play on a PowerPoint and click
that will remote clicker every three minutesuntil we get through to the end,
and then so thank you very much, here's your certificate. They have to
have, I think making that inboth engaging but also also making it relevant,

(11:01):
making it important for that student sothat they are engaged in it,
that they want to learn it becausethey can see this is boring, but
it is worthwhile. That was reallyhard to develop, and I found getting
that nailed was more important in retrospectthan the particular tool you're using, because

(11:24):
a lot of people we do thingsremotely, and I trained people in the
States in the middle of the nighthere by going basically flipping through PowerPoint on
Zoom or team calls or whatever.And we know, I've been training people
for a few years now that I'venever met in person or I met in
person wants and now we do everythingremotely. It's finding ways to do that

(11:48):
and keeping it engaging, keeping itrelevant to what they're doing. That again,
is still the most important thing,not the tool itself. There are
the self direct did learning for thestudents is really interesting. That's like the
second the second level of that buildingclick through online training programs that take the

(12:11):
student through from Okay, you starthere, here are the basic principles.
This is what you're going to learnin this course. Go to this,
go to this, go to this. We really adopted that in the middle
half of twenty twenty as a wayof training people because we were getting asked
to do that. But also itmeant that we didn't have to meet people
indoors anythink aback to those lockdown things. It was you can go outside,

(12:33):
you couldn't go into a building thebuilding. Being in a room together was
a difficult part. But we hadcourses where the first third is classroom.
You think about navigation. You know, we teach navigation to all sorts of
people, and you have to youhave to sit down with a map at
a compass and do it on atabletop, not standing on the side of
a mountain. You have to standon the side of the mountain afterwards.

(12:54):
But really to go through location formats. This is how a contour line works.
This is how you interpret this twoD thing and make it a three
D thing in your head. Youhave to find ways of doing that in
a classroom setting. So we foundthat, Okay, well, if we
build this click through system, thenit means we can do all of that

(13:16):
in before they come. You havegot sixteen hours, eight hours whatever of
prep for this course. If youhave not done that at the beginning,
by the time you turn up inperson on the course, it's not going
to go well for you, weare going to start at one hundred miles
an hour on day one when you'rein person, because you should have done
the reading first. So the toolscome secondary to that, I think,

(13:45):
which is I know it's not whatyou asked me, but it's the answer
I'm giving. You've got You've gotto you've got to to know if a
tool's going to work, you've gotto know how you're going to use it.
And to know how you're going touse it means you need to know
all the crap ways of doing itand a few other good ways so that
you can navigate between all those crapways. You can navigate between the dog

(14:07):
turns. To use a fantastic analogy. This is probably use that one in
future. It's definitely sort of tryingto as you say, some things you've
got to do either up front,whether it's an online click through test session,
classroom thing, or in person,but to get the theory done first

(14:31):
so everyone has a level of understanding, and then not long after that was
a balance getting in the practical partsof the theory to then when you get
sort of demonstrated because everyone likes todo practical stuff and learns differently, but
you've still got to get the basics, all the theory done and as you
say, something that you can onlydo by sitting down talking about it.

(14:54):
Yeah, sometimes for an organization,you're particularly if you've taken on a role
within an existing organization and you've gotto work within that, you're stuck with
the tools you've got. You know, we're using moodle. Why well,
because we've paid for the premium versionand we've paid for twelve months, so
it doesn't matter if it's crap,You're going to use it because it's been
paid for. Yeah, it mustbe tough on that same with guess like

(15:20):
that balance between having too much noninteraction and interaction. I guess that was
a hard one for you to dofrom being in person to go in remote
Rich it was, And it wasn'tuntil that kicked in that I realized how
much of my training technique relied oninterpersonal interactions and reading people's responses and reading

(15:43):
people's reactions and lag, just lagin recort, lag in transmission, so
that you're not getting immediate feedback frompeople. Two three second lag can completely
destroy the rhythm of something that youhave done one hundred times thousand times in
person, and it makes it makesit a hell of a lot harder.

(16:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Even if you're doing a PowerPoint presation
online and you're not getting interactional feedbackfrom it, sometimes you always think that
is anyone there? Are you there? And if you're doing it, of
course constance and that must be evenmore where disconcert is the right word.

(16:27):
But you can throw you off youryour pace a little bit, start thinking
about it. Have you found thatin person as well? Though? Ben?
Have you found that? Sometimes youget sorry, there's a dog drinking
very noisily in the background. I'llstart that again when he stopped drinking.

(16:49):
He's not drunk all day apparently,come on, just get three, get
his three liters in, go overthere. You know he's over there.
Okay, So you must have foundthat then, or have you in person
training as well, where sometimes thegroup's a bit flat, or they're not

(17:15):
very responsive to that subject that night, or they're not some lights people some
days, some sessions, people aremore engaged in learning than others. And
yeah, definitely I have actually changedsome of the sessions we do and rather
than doing an evening session, notputting on in mornings. The downsids almost

(17:37):
like three or four sessions in themorning to get through. I found that
it is better for interaction from peopleand people just more energetic, even earlier
in the morning. If you dothat in the evening people, whether as
we're talking from a volunteers point ofview, you're left work, then you

(18:00):
turn up to a training session.It makes it a long day for anyone,
especially if you've sort of left workand things. So, as you
say, people can interact differently atdifferent times, and even if you're looking
at people outside in the practical senseoutdoors, as you say, sometimes people

(18:22):
don't are they are they not gettingit because how you're coming across, or
are they just not getting it?So have they not understood the theory beforehand,
or you need to change attack becauseof the group compared to the last
group you did. Everyone's all individuals, so sort of different training or a

(18:44):
presentation point of view. It's quitedynamic, isn't it. It is?
And it's it can take a lotof energy sometimes as a trainer to bring
that mood of the group up.Or it's worse if they're coming from different
backgrounds or from different organizations, differentteams or individuals. We have that on
some of the public courses that wedon't run as many of anymore. But

(19:08):
you get some people there who arereally engaged in that subject and some people
who are staring at you like,oh God, what's you going to teach
us now? And you do wantto say to people, particularly on the
public courses, of like I didn'tmake you come here. You hate to
come here to do the thing,and that person over there is getting what
was advertised to them, and youclearly hate the idea of it actually being

(19:30):
taught to you, So piss off. I'll keep you here. Go,
we can go up, you candisappear. But bringing that up and moderating
what you say and changing the changingthe tone of the voice, changing the
humor that's brought into things. Howfocus on the subject, you're keeping things,
whether you change the session around abit so that you're teaching somebody who's

(19:55):
slightly skeptical of this concept or skepticalof this thing. So you bring the
proof points, you bring that pointwhere you go, Aha, So that
thing I was talking about this morning, you can see how it's developed now,
you can see it for yourself.Do you bring that into the morning
session so that they get kind ofproof that the system works, proof that
thing works, so that they're morebrought in. You lose that payoff in

(20:15):
the afternoon session, but it's therein the morning, so you've got that
those skeptical people are on board withyou. Now all of those things are
again things I was never taught todo, and it's only through sheer,
bloody mindedness and weird ways of lookingat things that have discovered that for myself.

(20:37):
And there's been a lot of failurebehind that of having sessions that I
wasn't entirely happy with how they wentbecause I chose the wrong tactic for dealing
with that group or dealing with thatone particular topic. There's a benefit of
time to this, and if you'veonly got so much time with a group,

(21:00):
you've only got three sessions a monthor whatever it is to do something,
and that also that group changes becauseof the nature of volunteers are.
You don't get the same twenty peopleturning up for training every week. So
if one person hasn't been there fora month and then they can then they
disappear again for another three weeks.If they required a different approach to training,

(21:22):
in order to get them to respond. Then it's going to be hard
for the trainer to balance that out. So how how have you have you
approached that in a certain way orhave you or are you still working on
that? No, that's that's that'sa good point. Actually, I was
thinking about that sort of recent experience. As as people are volunteers, I

(21:47):
mean, everyone should do the sametraining, put the same effort in.
Just because you're volunteers, you shouldmake any difference from that point of view,
But you also need to sort ofbalance what people do have worked lives
or have other lives. This isyou know, they are volunteering to do
this kind of thing. So,yeah, I have had people who have
missed the theory sessions as we weretalking about earlier on, and then came

(22:11):
into the practical session. Now,yes, you could just say, well,
we haven't done the theory, youcan't take up and do the practical.
However, that might mean they can'tdo the practical for another few months,
et cetera. So it's you canstill do it if it's just maybe
the one person, because then youcan sort of tailor your training, your

(22:33):
presentation how they're working within the groupto do that, and I was actually
I was actually quite pleased. Itdid work quite well, and it also
demonstrated they've got a good attitude tolearn in any way, so when they
have done the theory, they've obviouslygot more of a experience because have done

(22:55):
the practical side of it. Butyeah, it's a it does show that
you need to do the training thetheory side of it, but within the
practical element of it if it's justone or two people, where you can
probably work your way around in userrest of groups to help out as well.

(23:15):
How do you deal with the peoplewho have been there, done that
have been in the team longer thanyou have done that thing for longer than
you, or at least think theyhave or they think they know more about
that subject, because I know that'sthat's something that comes up with water stuff
and crag stuff. I think,particularly if you've got somebody who's a kayaker

(23:37):
in front of you, who's inand out of a drysuit every day,
or the kayak coach or something,and now you're trying to teach the mess
our tea stuff for water rescue orboat stuff or something along those lines,
where it's not the same as whatthey do every day, but they've come
there without confidence. I know.This is all you always used to be
a thing for climbers and crag stuff, teaching climbers the rope system rather than

(24:00):
place that gear over there, equalizeit in the way that they would.
You've got to teach them their yourprescribed system. Is that something that you
found with water stuff, Luke.Yeah, you always get that, you
know, the expert in the groupwhen you when you first start out in
some of these training scenarios. Butyeah, it's the best. The best

(24:22):
way to describe it is it's likewhen you're doing like a river day,
you know, the general public ofwalking past no ppe, you know,
no helbits, no life, youknow, and that's all of you stood
on the bank with full ppe drysuits, you know, throw lines,
helbits, goggles, the works,and and you're trying to explain to that,
you know, those people like youknow, we need to do this.

(24:45):
We need to go through the motions, we need to go back to
basics. We can't just jump in. You know. Also that duty of
care responsibility to make sure that we'rewe're not sort of jump in the gun
before you do something. Yeah,I've delivered hypothermia training during heat waves,

(25:07):
it's really difficult to get people tobuy in to it. So how have
you found that loop from Maybe youhaven't from a volunteering perspective, being because
you're also deferent standards. How howhas that worked with volunteering? And then
there's a there's a UK standard ofwater flood Well, luckily most of the

(25:34):
courses that are available here in theUK are aligned to those national standards.
Not all of them, but themajority follow that sort of structure of what
you need to do to learn tobecome qualified in those Deaferat standards, which
is yeah, so so being avolunteer and then somebody who's paid to do

(26:06):
that that role. How have youever come across any sort because the person's
being paid thinks they know more orI've not come across any one like that.
I've come across some experts in thefield in terms of you know,
they think they've done you know,they've done that Mod two qualification, which
is you know they can they canwade in water for you know, ten

(26:27):
plus years, and yeah, they'vebeen taught by someone who didn't clearly understand
what that capability start point and finishpoint was, so they're doing things that
are you know, above their qualifiedstatus, which I guess is quite common
at some some levels of you know, search and rescue training, where you

(26:48):
sort of that scope creep of ofwhat you are allowed and or trained to.
I suppose it's that quite you know, tee to point on the edge
of you. You've always done it, so should you do it or are
you qualified? Did you actually dothat when you did your course or was

(27:10):
the course taught at a slightly abovescope? Yeah? I think it helps
as well if you define what you'retraining people. Are you training people in
a particular skill, are you trainingpeople you know you do this, then
you do this, then you dothis, or are you training people in
a skill set? Are you trainingpeople in a basically a framework of this

(27:37):
is how we do things in thisorganization. You do this, you do
this, you train people to bepredictable. It was recently working with a
guy who does his previous career isteaching se survive of a resist extract,
so military survival in a way.But when you look at it for NATO

(28:00):
style military survival, often you're notteaching the air crew, special forces or
whoever, every single way to survivein every single situation. Ever. What
you're doing is teaching them the basicsand basic principles of combat survival. And
this is what you need to doto filter water, this is how you
identify wood for burning, that kindof thing. But most of the training

(28:23):
is teaching them how to be predictable. Upon ejecting from your aircraft, this
will happen. Then you do this. Then you do this. Your first
thing to do should be this.But of this is happening, then you
should do this instead. All theway up to there's aircraft and people coming
to get you at this location,you need to get there, and then
when they they're coming, you dothis. You use this way to signal

(28:45):
them, because you're teaching people howto be predictable so that other people can
go off and do things without contactwith them and then come in and collect
them. And more and more Ifind that's what we're doing is training people.
We're creating a system or modifying asystem that already exists, and then
getting that across the students that weare teaching you a system. We are

(29:10):
teaching you, not the best wayin the world that's possible to do that.
Any one of these particular things.What we're doing is teaching you a
very boring and predictable way to dothis. Then do this, Then do
this so that the rest of theorganization knows roughly what you're doing because you're
following a doctrine, you're following aprotocol. And do you think that might

(29:30):
help sometimes with when you're dealing withthe in house expert or the person in
your team or whatever it is whoor knows it already or knows thinks they
know it already and think they knowhow to respond to all these things.
Is you're not teaching them the bestway to do something, You're teaching them

(29:51):
how we do things. Yeah,yeah, I guess that's yeah, yeah,
that's interesting. Next, as you'retalking, just thinking how but what's
your view on You can't so youcan't train somebody everything. So there's from
your example there anything you kind ofhave an ejected out of an airplane jet

(30:15):
that's always going to happen the sameway. But once you're on the ground,
there's a whole number of things thatcould be completely different to how you
survive or you can't teach every eventuality, So what what do you give?
Do you give them the basics andthen hope they're okay, or do you

(30:36):
then give them extra training, refreshers, cpds or something on top of that
all the time to try and fillin the gaps. Maybe it depends on
the the level in the organization thatperson will be. So what you train
somebody on the ground is different towhat you're train a party leader with or
a team leader in lowland star terms, or what you what you would train,

(31:02):
how you would train a search managera search controller, and how you
would or bronze, silver and goldcommand if you're using that structure, how
one you're teaching people to make decisions? Really, in any of these things,
you do this, you do that, you do that. But in
the examples there ejecting from an aircraftlanding in the Arctic versus landing in the

(31:26):
jungle, versus landing in the desert, it's different kit different things, but
you might have you're in the sameflight suit. Often you're in the same
year. Maybe, so how doyou respond to those different scenarios, Well,
you train people in how to makethose decisions. So for survival and

(31:51):
the environmental survival as we term it, we say what's going to kill me?
First? You know what's going tokill me? First? Am I
going to fall off this cliff?Or am I going to be on fire?
So which which one? First?One of those first triage and with
decision making, that's what you're doing. So if you like, I don't
know which we go for water becausewe've all got experience in that reach was

(32:16):
it reach through go shout reach out? Yeah? Yeah, which which which
you're talking about for that for thatparticular memoir, But it is that is
that you're teaching. You say,that's you know, you're teaching somebody how
to recover somebody from the water side. But that's your order of priority.

(32:39):
So that's how you make decisions.So so many of those skills can be
just brought down to you're teaching somebodyhow to make decisions. And you hear
this phrase it's tools in the toolkit, just giving you a tool to use,
and we're giving you a tool thatyou can just choose to use.
Well, really, you're giving somebodya way of making a decision. Same

(33:01):
with medical stuff, doctor ABC.That takes away decision making for you.
Yeah. But then with with trainersthat we've just alluded to a minute ago,
it changes So whether it's standards havechanged, your acronyms have changed to
mean the same thing, but it'ssomething different. So when you're either learning

(33:23):
it again being told by somebody,or refreshing or however the an acronym has
changed, it's like learning again.It can be sort of confusing. Do
you think it's possible then, toif you're using an external standard like British
Resource Council for CPR or BLS,or you're using the DEPHRA MOD system,

(33:49):
or you're you're using the old Rescuethree system, or you're using rigging for
rescue for your rope rescue, oryou're using another system, the fact that
you're out sourcing that standard to somebodyelse to make that standard for you,
and then you're just adopting that.Do you think there's a risk then that
you can become so obsessed about whatthe current standard is you lose sight of

(34:12):
what the overall purpose of that standardis. That's a good pointeh. If
you think about BLS and the BritishResource Council, is it thirty and two
or is it then fifteen and twoor is it compression only or then it's
BACTER thirty and two, and thenis it two rescue breaths and then thirty
and then so yeah, in reality, this is all important stuff, isn't

(34:35):
It's all I mean? Or isit important just to know the basics and
do that? So as long asyou're doing one of those, you're you're
likely potentially to save somebody's life orand I fall off a cliff or do
something else just because of the ratiohas changed or the action has changed,
or yeah, but what's the funIs it more important that it's actually good

(35:00):
quality of compressions? Is that andthe and the tempo of it and the
repeatability of that? Is that moreimportant than the number? Then? Because
if you just go into compression only, then continual good compressions would seem to
be better than thirty compressions that onlygo in two millimeters or go through and

(35:20):
you press so hard you end uppushing the stirnum through, so it touches
the spine, inverting the rinkage,which is which is almost going back to
do the base as well. Yeah, so what is the principle? What
is the thing that you're trying toachieve here? So back to water rescue,
saving the casualty but without killing myteam members. First yeah, exactly

(35:45):
that. Yeah, So it doesn'tmatter really about the decision making if you've
killed, if you throw your firstprinciples of self team casualty out of the
window, So maintaining that ten thousandfoot view of looking down on everything and

(36:05):
going yeah, but rather than focusinghyper focusing on one particular thing, we're
trying to achieve all of these thingsat the same time. And when you
ask people a lot of the timethey always say, oh, yeah,
but it's the casualty comes first.Your casualty is no, no, no,
no, now new. The mostimportant thing is that you get home,
and then the next most important thingis that the team still there to

(36:28):
come to training next week. Ifyou save the casualty, generally it's a
bonus, you know, trying totry to avoid just giving up halfway through
not don't make it any worse.It's I don't know that it's a yeah,
yeah, you are the most importantperson. But hyper focus on one
particular technical aspect can lose sight,I think, make you lose sight of

(36:52):
your reasons for doing it or youroverall thinking. And I think somewhere that
that's where leadership comes in, becauseyou have to be slightly detached from any
one of those technical aspects to bea good leader on the ground. Yeah.
So yeah, I was gonna say, is it how your structures in
your organization is done? So maybesomebody should above have that ten thousand look

(37:19):
at everything, but not from peoplelower down who are providing the training.
Just focus on that level, andyou're only teaching people the things that they
need to know for doing those roles, rather than them known everything because they
don't necessarily need to know everything.Well, bring a back round to the
role of training officer and the roleof coordinating training and a volunteer star team.

(37:42):
Should you actually do any training deliveryyourself? Looking back, I would
argue, no, it would makemy life easier if I didn't. I
think that's something that gets confused sometimesis that training is your responsibility, therefore
your delivering training. Really you shouldbe training Coward, so you should be
training booker. You should be managingthe training system, ensuring a training syllabus

(38:05):
is in place and it's being adhereto. But if you're standing on the
side of a hill with a compass, you're probably if you're probably too involved,
I would say, And that wasone of the mistakes I made.
As part of the reason I wasn'tvery good was because I was. I
had just my Mountain Leader reward.I got that a couple of years before,
and I've done other outdoor skills,so it's very much in my mind

(38:29):
of I was outdoor superhero of Godwith long hair at the time as well
to a cape as well. No, no, but I had a very
good sense of self worth, let'sput it that way, so that I

(38:50):
was too involved in the training deliverymyself, and actually, looking back on
it, I would have been betteroff if I had been more removed from
it. And you bring in asecondary problem of do the skills exist within
the team to train the team?And I guess how big or small your
team is as well. I mean, if you've got a fairly small team,

(39:10):
that's probably harder to take that stepback, or where's your bigger team?
Maybe yeah, a choice. Andthen the members you have, can
they deliver? They might be goodat doing that particular role or activity,
but does that make them a ateacher, a good person do the presentation?

(39:35):
So, luck luckily my team wehave a good number of trainers,
so I do do some in persontraining myself, but I don't do all
of it, so it can getdelegated to other people. And we've got
quite a good mix there. Butif you if you don't have that luxury
of having, as Luke was saying, a big team or the right people
to be able to stand there anddeliver the training, the present the standards

(40:00):
of how they are and not howthey think they are and actually or could
actually stand there and be a teacher. I'm an instructor that can also have
a detrimented the class learning. Andthere's also the element of what is the
responsibility of a team to teach orto train? So I have heard the

(40:23):
argument and I kind of I canreally see the validity of this, and
I can argue for it myself thatthere are some things that you should not
They should be a standard within theteam, and they should be an assessed
standard, but it should not betrained within the team. Training time is
valuable within the team. It shouldgo towards higher level training rather than base

(40:44):
level. So if you do notknow how to navigate, if you do
not know how to layer and dressand moderate your temperature and dryness appropriately,
if you do not know how tomove across this terrain. If you do
not know how to do these basiclevel things for some outdoor worlds, then

(41:07):
you should find a way to developthose skills outside of the team time.
That should be something that you're comingto the table with already, whereas that's
generally not the case, at leastin the UK. SAR stuff, and
I think Lowland SAR versus mountain rescuethere's a difference there. But to use
a sort of a third equivalent,it would be you couldn't join You couldn't

(41:31):
be a r and Alie boat crewlifeboat boat crew without knowing how to run
a boat. You know, youcouldn't come from being a complete land lubber.
You had to have come from fishing, sailing something of being on a
boat. You know how to behaveon a boat, you know how to
work on a boat, you knowhow to use all the gear, and
you're trained in the specifics of rescue. So for mountain rescue, that would

(41:52):
be you have to be a mountaineer, really have to be a competent mountaineer
to join the team. I don'tknow what the equivalent of that for Lowland's
rescue is. Competent outdoors mean slashwoman. Maybe, but it's does that
then potentially limit your pool of volunteersor people to join your organization if you're

(42:15):
only picking from yes, certain areasor having a higher standard of fitness or
competency before you join. Yes,absolutely, one hundred percent. It limits
it massively. It's like having fit, it's like having higher fitness standards or
something like that. You are afitness standard by default, is ablest.

(42:36):
Same with same with being able tolift a certain amount of weight or carry
a certain amount of weight, oreven for climbing. I mean it's less
of a thing for rope rescue.But if you can't stand on your feet,
stand up right and touch this holdon the crack, then you're never
going to get there. So unlessyou can't bring the box with you,

(42:57):
so there is you cannot then enforcea physical standard without being ablest to some
degree, which is not being fullyinclusive. So then you need to find
other ways of looking at things andfind other ways of doing things. And
it is a balance for teams.Maybe is a thing that if you're in

(43:17):
an area where you don't have torecruit, there's always a pile of applications
waiting with a six month twelve monthwaiting list, which some teams have,
and other teams where they have toactively bang the drum and go on local
radio and try and get people tojoin. The team that doesn't have to
recruit, can they afford to havehigher standards than the team that needs to

(43:42):
get people in the door, becauseyou need people first before you can have
a standard. Yeah, but Isuppose you're then in that situation of if
you become a team or an organizationthat you can't recruit, do you then
lower your standard from what everyone isused to to be able to meet the

(44:05):
recruitmental meat having the people in yourteam, and you then lowered your standards,
but you're used to and you've donethese high standards for these reasons almost
sort of the dumbing down and whatyou've back to the priority is what's the
most important thing? Is the mostimportant thing. The standard is the most
important thing having people there. Yeah, the essays, so should you work

(44:29):
to a minimum minimum standard. Specialforces don't really have to recruit. They
have a recruitment process, but theyrely on the legend of who they are
and what they do to bring peoplein through the door, and then they
can have a very they can maintaina very high standard. Then because they
have they will take everyone who passesthat standard. But you can't run a

(44:52):
volunteer starteam like that despite what,Yeah, I think you have some special
Forces fitness standard requirement before you join. I don't. Yeah, that might
limit your your numbers to maybe acouple and then that couple of people.
Do you actually want to do itactually a good fit overall? For Yeah,

(45:15):
Well that the standard for joining thatorganization is, okay, you need
to be at this good reference that'stwenty five miles away at midnight and get
there in darkness. Go I coulddo that. If the standard was behave
normally in a social setting for threehours, I would fail. Work to

(45:37):
your strength, Rich, there's areason I do want to do how so
Ben, how how do you keepthings fresh, especially in like a like
a cycle training system, so likeyou know, obviously, if you things
need to be refreshed twice a year, three times a year, how do
you keep it from being sort ofmundane and boring and repetitive. That's a

(46:02):
very good question, Luke. Ithink some things you can't change. I
think it depends on the topic andwhat you need to get across. For
back standard, some things you can'tjazz up or change. I think sometimes

(46:23):
you just got to accept that thatis what it is and do it as
best you can. But also forother things you can look at doing a
slightly different presentation or a slightly differentpractical or going back over something else which
is relevant to people that are stillit is something different you've done last time,

(46:46):
but you're still hitting the criteria asthe standards of those competence is if
you like. But it does takeIt does take hard work. It takes
more effort to do those kind ofthings and keep things fresh than it does
just to keep churn out the samepresentations, the same speeches and stuff.
Yeah, I suppose from a LolanRescue sort of point of view, is

(47:09):
like there's a few things like SARstructure and legals that is a yes,
legal in the UK SAR structure.Yes, that's just that's the reason why
I do that one all the time, because nobody else wants to do it.
It's it's an important one because ofthe legal side and know in the

(47:31):
UK SR structure, And if youcan explain it around those subjects of why
and put it into context within whatpeople do on searches, then that can
make it more interesting if you likeagain, people love listening to my voice
saying why would why wouldn't they findthat subjects interesting? But there's only a

(47:54):
certain amount of changes you can doto it. You can only do this
is what it is. This isthe UKSR structured, this is it's a
government structure. This is where wefit in. That's always going to be
the same the rest of the thingsaround that. That is how it is.
You can't really change it. Toask a difficult question. Then,

(48:17):
if it's a matter of getting people, if you have to find a way
to motivate people to become engaged inthat learning. I know this is like
contrary to what I said earlier,but it's more of a play Devil's advocate.
If you have to motivate people andget them engaged and say, come
on, you really want to learnthis, then why are they there?

(48:38):
Because you surely should be only teachingpeople important things, because if it's not
important, why are you teaching it? And if it's an important thing for
them to learn, then you shouldn'tneed to motivate them because they should be
motivated to be there because it's partof being doing that job. You need
to do this to do this job. Therefore, I shouldn't need to motivate
you because you if you're not selfmotivated to be here, why are you

(49:01):
hit? And I realized that myparticular brain type may find it difficult to
have to be to empathize with peopleevery every time. But it is a

(49:22):
It's something I see in other worldsas well. It's something again from military
stuff that military leadership models don't applyoften to civilian structures like businesses, because
you might think you're the world's bestleader in the military, but that's because
everyone has to do what this yousay, otherwise they're going to prison.

(49:43):
Whereas you go to a business andsay, hey, you do this and
I'll go now I quit and justwalk off. You can't that buy in.
That personal motivation is different, Soshould that be part of you go
all the way back into your recruitment, you only recruit people who actually want

(50:06):
to learn. If somebody wants todoesn't want to learn that thing anymore,
isn't motivated to come to that training, is that a point where they should
look at their motivations for being there. That's yeah, that's a very good
point, and that's probably a lotof training officers, membership officers and other

(50:27):
people who probably now listening to thispodcast within their teams or organizations are probably
wondering the same thing, why amI? Why am I here? Reaches
And I would say then that youshould have both a system for identifying that
and also a system then for reengaging people separate to training. It shouldn't

(50:52):
just be make the training better.It should be identify when people are becoming
less engaged with the organization and lessengaged with one they're doing things and why
they chose to be there, andhelp them re engage, not just through
training. Hmm. That's a reallygood point because if you've been with a

(51:12):
team for a long time, youmeet the minimum standard, but you you
don't really do anything. You justtick over you know. That's yeah,
difficult one, because that's what that'swhat you want to do, isn't it
just sort of bully flop over thebar, just just just just squeaking.
Yeah, I've been doing it tenyears. I don't need to need to

(51:37):
do it anymore. I don't needto learn all this anymore. But you
do. You need to keep yourconfidencies up and your qualifications up, and
you're it comes back to you,Yeah, your motivation. Why are you
there if you think you're that goodbut you don't think you need to do
the training or the refreshers or howevermundane you think it is. Have you
now been there too long? Yeah? So it's the what's that term autodidactic?

(52:00):
That you are a self starter?You you are personally motivated to doing
these things, to improving these things, and it shouldn't be an external pressure.
It should be Okay, these arethe standards everyone, This is the
way you test yourself with against thosestandards. This is what will happen if

(52:20):
you don't hit those standards. Andrather than should training be revolve around benchmarks,
then it's past fail. But ifyour training is just everyone's going to
attend training and everyone's going to gothrough this thing and you're all trained,
now, the spectrum of competency thatmight come out of that classroom can be

(52:42):
quite wide, and it's often todo with the individuals there. Yeah.
Yeah, because even if you've justlearned that theory and that training, it
doesn't make you competent in it,is it or an expert in that no
presentation at role or whatever you've justdone. It doesn't mean to say that
you can then go out and performthat way or even become a You may

(53:07):
then become an instructor of that,but it doesn't mean that you've got the
experience and everything else around bend todeliver it. I'm a big advocate for
assessment oriented training that you have anassessment of some lu type within that training,
or that you can tell the differencebetween somebody who has attended and somebody

(53:30):
who's been attended and assessed against thestandard. It still requires them the standard
being upheld within that assessment, andyou're only as good as the lowest The
assessment then is only as good asthe lowest mark. But I think you
should have a point of failure that'spossible in there, that you have not
reached that standard on this day,give people a roadmap and a framework for

(53:52):
getting back on tracking reaching that standardanother time. But I think for anything
that's critical, that's important and againwhy you're training, and things that aren't
important, there should be a standardbecause but then again that's not it's not
particularly inclusive. If you take fifteenpeople and say you seven are great,

(54:17):
the other ones are going to outnumberthem. And I've seen this a few
times where you get a group ofpeople coming to a training event and I'll
go through a training course and thereis an assessment and some people score higher,
do better, pass, fail,whatever. The ones that fail that
fail generally go back and say thattraining is crap, we don't need it,

(54:38):
it's pointless. There's there's a there'sa problem at every level. And
the ones that pass think it's greatbecause you're your Your assessment of how useful
that training is is closely linked toyour perceived status around being competent in it.

(54:59):
Yeah, but it's also then howas a trainer instructor have you presented
to that group of individuals. Havethey needed a different way of learning?
So are they whether dyslexic or hearingproblems or things like that. Has that

(55:22):
been taken into account of where they'resitting within the room or how you're delivering
it and explaining the information to them, Because they could be perfectly capable of
at the end reaching that assessment andbeing really good at what they're doing,
they just haven't quite got it.Is that then down to the trainer or
is that down to they should havelet you know, or is it reading

(55:45):
the room? And is the valuethan in training people on how to be
trained, training people and how tolearn because train the trainer well or the
train the student. I know howto learn now, but I didn't when
I left school because I just thought, well, I didn't do very well

(56:07):
at those things or I didn't geton with those things, and then I've
done other stuff since that I knownow. If I was take my brain
and zip it back into sixteen yearold me, I would have a completely
different approach to learning the things Iwas learning at school and onwards, because
I know how my brain process isinformation. Though I know how I respond

(56:30):
to challenges now. I know howI respond to failure now, or at
least I know how to control myresponses to failure. And I think that's
the important thing as well, andit's something that comes with age but not
to everyone. You have to beon the lookout for it. You have
to be looking for how you respondto failure and know, Okay, I

(56:51):
want to get better at this thing, so I'm not going to just go
to pieces and because it went wrong, I'm gonna go, oh, well,
that's not gone well. All right, I'll change my response to it
and try another approach. But thattakes a lot of willpower and a lot
of effort to overcome failure. Sodo you train? Is a worthwhile?
Training people in how to learn?I would argue that it is, but

(57:15):
I have no idea where you'd findpart time at the syllabus to do that.
Philosophical yeah, and then that couldhave quite a big impact on anyone,
whether it's within a seuch rescues withtalking about that and training stuff.
But even from a work point ofview or learning, you could or even

(57:37):
school, college, et cetera.If you the why it's presented all training
and if you if you miss thator decide I'm not doing that anymore,
it could really change your path ofwhere you could have gone ended up because
you've been teached poorly or do youunderstand it when if things will change a

(57:57):
little bit more, you could havedone that and become a successful scientist of
stuff. M can we get outof the badge? Please, Luke,
I could have been the scientist.I could be doing something better by now,
but I'm here. That's just aboutthe type of people as well,

(58:22):
like you know, like from mymy day job. We all get two
be involved with the finding out whattype of person we are from like a
MIAs Briggs approach where you know,you can remember the bits off the top
of my head, but you knowyou have a good one thing bad at
the other end, and you canwork out why you're always being rubbed up

(58:45):
the wrong way by a certain typeof person because what you're saying to them
goes in there's angry, but whatthey say to you goes in there's even
more angry. And it's quite powerful. I guess that from from a training
point of view. But those thosetools and those assessments and those those analytical
programs only work if there's a parttwo. If there's part one, you're

(59:10):
an idiot. Why well you're justangry, don't take criticism, well,
well goodbye. And like you knowthat corporate into a volunteer role doesn't always
marry up. And that you know, there's some really good stuff that has
you know, from the corporate willcome into the volunteer side of things of

(59:34):
how to do things, you know, innovation and stuff like that, but
there's certain stuff that it's expensive,it's not cheap. You know, there's
always a cost to it. Whetherit's money or time, there's gound be
a cost to it. And ifit's a volunteer sector, that's that's a
bit different from a work point ofview because it's paid for it. You've

(59:57):
got the time because you're there doingit, You're they're doing money. If
you're not, they find someone elseto work. But yeah, and volunteer
sector tends to be self selecting interms of personality types and income levels and
free time. It's way you oftenend up with reasonably wealthy retired people with
lots of free time who've come fromcorporate world. Makes up a lot of

(01:00:17):
starting because you know how to structurethings, but you've got the free time
and the spare cash to do it. Yeah, but I think that's slightly
changing for not having as many peoplewho have retired that people are still more
people see to be coming in whoare in work so are full full time.

(01:00:40):
So whether things have changed for worklife balance and stuff, they've sort
of accepted that maybe they've got abit more free time than they thought they
had. So yeah, I thinkmaybe it's slightly changing the demographic and stuff
for people who do volunteer for teams, the raids still work, so I

(01:01:00):
work, Luke does and tends toa varying degree. We all work somehow
full time. But I think morepeople are coming and joining teams who are
working. That's because they've raised theretirement age. True. Yeah, oh

(01:01:24):
yeah, I'm sure a joke.Well, there's there's all sorts of things
within within that. It might alsobe like from from the lockdowns, and
we had online training, which hasgot a lot better, and I think
it's a good thing. You cando some really good things remotely now.

(01:01:46):
But maybe people's perception of their ownwork life balances also changed slightly. I
think people knowing what it's about aswell. Social media has helped. Yeah,
I know that you two idiots withthis podcast have recruited people onto teams
because I know because we've heard aboutit since, haven't We've heard about the

(01:02:08):
stories about We've heard about it throughthe podcast. Yeah, so I hope
you're proud of yourselves. Actually that'sthat's a good, good work and point,
or maybe it's a bad point.Actually, what we are doing as
a podcast and talking about search rescuing, whether it's our experiences or our opinions,

(01:02:36):
this is still a form of trainingor CPD. You take that back,
No, I will not. Ithink, let's play some piano music.
I've done a good thing. Ohis it dramatic piano? Or to
like's got a soundboard this this week? It's too late now. I I

(01:03:00):
think people do and we've got aresponsibility listen to the podcast and maybe pick
up on some things that maybe theycould do differently. Or from a training
learning point of view, it's networkcertainly, it's hearing about how other people
do things and learning and being receptiveto what you can pick out of that,

(01:03:23):
and learning that I can learn fromother people's mistakes. I can learn
from other people's successes, or atleast I can reflect differently on what I
do by hearing about what someone elsedoes. I love hearing about decision making
stories because it helps me be betterat making decisions. But also it makes

(01:03:45):
me a better trainer for other peopleand decision making. And as said,
training for these kind of skills ismostly training people in how to make decisions.
And I like frameworks like workflows.I like those kind of things.
If you start here and you endup here, how do you get there?
What's important? How do you prioritizethings? How do you triage things

(01:04:10):
and you could easily learn. Youcould listen to Formula one driver talk about
things and how they went from kartingthrough to Formula three and then moved up
through and go into a team,and then how they were doing things there.
But what they do with their fitnessas well, and what they do
with their mindset. That will helpyou if you're doing something completely unrelated to
those fields. But you can listento somebody else talk about how their brain

(01:04:31):
is structured. Yeah, ye aswell. I mean I keep saying CPD,
but people don't understand. You knowwhat it means. It's continuing professional
development. Do you think there's athing you got from smoking COPD? Sorry?
Is it also nomal CPD or anyway? Sorry completely going off of I

(01:04:58):
always do things. So if ifpeople were using podcasts for CPD or some
other form of online information training,how do you know that it's correct?

(01:05:20):
How do you take that as aonline training provider stuff? Because we're talking
here. People could listen to ourshows and we've done you have done some
good stuff amongst all the stuff wedo talk about other things, but it
could be taken as CPD, andI think we are correct what we were

(01:05:43):
talking about at times, But howhow do you pick that as a how
do you know if it's bollocks?Yes, let's keep it real. That's
because I've returned to training when I'vesat there in the room going this person
has never actually done this thing.They've just they're repeating what they have seen
or heard or read elsewhere. Yeah, And it's like the classic first aid

(01:06:10):
course, is it. Yeah,Yeah, if you get a certificate at
the end of it, as yousay, it still could be bollocks.
And there is the but then youhave the completely the other way, which
is you have a person who's donetoo much of it and is not a
good trainer. So they know whatthey're talking about. They really know what
they're talking about, they just cannotget it across to you in a digestible

(01:06:32):
format that's relevant. That's something that'svery common to first aid and medical training
is the war stories. You know, I haven't come here to hear about
what you did in Basra. Youknow, if you can say, right,
this is something we moved from thistechnique to this technique because of this
particular incident, and that's the reasonbehind that decision making. Yep, that's

(01:06:55):
useful if you go, oh yeah, me and the boys, we were
doing this, this, this,and this. I pay five hundre quid
for this. Come on, youwant to you how you judge whether it's
good, whether it's bollocks or not. It's you've got to be skeptical.
I think you've got to test itagainst what you already know. But also

(01:07:18):
any information you take in is theoreticaluntil tested. And we have this with
with one of our shows, ModernOutdoor Survival, where just watching YouTube videos,
reading a book, looking at Instagramreels and tiktoks and stuff, you

(01:07:39):
can theoretically learn stuff from there.But until you go and get muddy boots
somewhere, or go and get coldand wet, you don't know for certain
that works. You have to go. You take that and go, well,
that's an idea. I've never thoughtof trying that, but I have
to go and test it. Yeahyeah, but that one thing that you
have been trained on or YouTube orInstagram or some other platform is one thing

(01:08:03):
that could kill you because you haven'tthat that not is wrong. That way
of entering the water or climbing,that mounting is incorrect. This is something
I was talking about with a guyover in the States who sort of delivers
training programs there and he's a similarage to me, and now he's training

(01:08:28):
people in a sheriff's department, sohe's training people who are generally younger than
us now in those early mid twenties, so we're all millennials, half zoomas.
And he was said that it wassomething that was pointed out to him,
but he hadn't really thought about itbefore, which is there's a generational

(01:08:50):
shift without social media that for oldermillennials it tends to be and anyone older
it was tended to be. Anexternal authority said whether something was okay based
on something cultural. You know,this behavior is okay, Doing things in
this way is okay. Your acceptabilitywas based on something cultural, based on

(01:09:14):
a greed standard that had evolved.But for the younger generation. And I
know you've got loads of quite afew younger listeners to this, so you
may be the exception to this.You know, don't if this doesn't apply
to you. I'm not talking aboutyou, but generally, speaking for your
generation, whether something was appropriate ornot, whether something was permissible or not,

(01:09:35):
came down to was it allowed tobe on YouTube, Is it acceptable
within the terms of service of thatbroadcasting organization, of that publisher of that
social media platform, Because if it'snot allowed on there, then it's probably
not allowed. But because there arevideos of people talking complete bollocks about outdoor

(01:10:00):
skills or rope work or these otherthings, and it might get millions of
views, but it will still killyou if you try it. But it
gets lots of views, that becomesthe inherent sort of benchmark of approval.
Is but it's really popular content,Yes, it is popular content. It's
complete, complete horse water, butit is it's very popular. Whereas before

(01:10:28):
the Internet, before at least beforesocial media, it was okay, you
could show this video to your tribe, your group, your organization, and
the ten people in there who knewwhat they were talking about would go,
yeah, that's bollocks, mate.Whereas you have you might have five million
anonymous Internet users all telling you thatthis is absolutely fine because they've all watched

(01:10:50):
it. Yeah that's so, becauseI've got my two boys watch YouTube pro
far too much. But they're thesame thing. Or they've got millions of
subscribers that they're they're really they knowthis, they know that and when it
don't take that as true. That'sjust because we've got lots of listeners that

(01:11:14):
is what they're talking about is notright, or don't take challenge it.
And then when I look at YouTube, Oh Dad, you're looking at YouTube.
You think it's good as well?But I know I know what I'm
looking at is relevant and I've gota slight Let's go back to my going

(01:11:35):
up in the loft today looking atducting and stuff. I've looked at YouTube
for different ducting solutions and stuff.Some of it I've gone nah, other
bits because I've got a vague ideaof experience, and other things I've done
either making mistakes. I mean knowhow they're coming across. I genuinely believe

(01:11:57):
they're coming across well, and thatmakes sense and I'll probably listen to them.
But I could have gone to anotherYouTube channel and yeah, well I
have no roof left. You've usedyour contextual knowledge and your previous experiences to
be able to quickly filter through awide set of information to pull out the
good information because you can test itagainst what you already know. Yeah,

(01:12:23):
Whereas if you don't know what goodlooks like, then how do you know
how can you pull it together?No, it's very difficult because if all
you're looking at is that one thingand it's bad, but everyone's saying it's
good, that becomes the good.So it comes down to again the training

(01:12:43):
and what and who's doing the training, and who's delivering the training. What
at the second level in the organization, within the team, who's testing that,
who's checking that that works? What'sstandard you're working to? Yeah,
but how is the standard tested?How is it and delivered in the way

(01:13:04):
other because things tests, lots ofstandards have exists that have not survived first
contact with reality. This is againa thing for water rescue and flood rescue
and flood search. I mean everymajor flood incident in the UK in the
past twenty years has partially rewritten thehandbook. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

(01:13:27):
this is how we deploy doing this. This is how we deploy doing that.
This is where we will stage here, this is where comms will be.
You know, comms will be viaairwave until the local the mass have
all gone down because it's either theunderwater or the power's gone. So we're
now back to VHF. Only onlytwo organizations here have VHF and it doesn't
work in that building over there wheresilver commander is that is that coming back

(01:13:55):
around to learning from your mistakes,whether it's personal if you have died,
there's not you should still learn fromit, but you don't. You don't
want to get to that point inthe first place. But I have been
the annoying person standing there in themiddle of a disaster and go, well,
think of the learning points, lads, this is this is awful at
But however that although it has ithas been pointed out to me that my

(01:14:21):
glee that things going wrong sometimes someone'sdying general trying try and tone it back
a bit. But if I'm comfortablein my environment in that point, but
things are going badly for the groupoverall, and it's not the conditions you
wanted. And I'm stood there goingit doesn't help with the group learning experience.

(01:14:46):
Where's Richard? He's over there pointingat the rocks falling down, going.
Poor man's made a shelter and he'sput that vital log in the wrong
place. Yeah, or just Ibrought the right kit. You ignored what
I said and you brought the wrongkit. I'm over here in my four
season sleeping bag don't talk to memore putting on YouTube and Instagram. Yeah,

(01:15:11):
but it's identifying those learning points asthey're occurring, being open to them,
even if just everything's gone wrong infront of you, go how did
this happen? And how can Iavoid being here in the future. I
think that's a personality trait. ButI don't think that's I think it's something
that you can learn and develop,but you have to understand the importance of
it, understand the utility of it. Yeah, and yeah, that obviously

(01:15:35):
it comes down to the individual quit. I suppose you can teach that,
but some people just have a betteraptitude the right word or whatever, but
just generally can deal with that andlook at things a bit differently to assess
that. But I suppose you canteach you to a point. So what

(01:15:57):
do you think is your biggest challengeas a training officer? Then? Oh,
I think it's probably the organization ofit and keeping people, giving people
the opportunities to be able to staycompetent. I think that's quite a big

(01:16:23):
thing, especially as it's volunteering.Again, I think if you're here,
you should be here for the rightreasons, and you should be proactive and
want to learn, training and keepin date, et cetera. For the
other things. From a work pointof view, it's a bit different because
you have to do it. Ifyou don't do it, there's consequences,

(01:16:45):
and the biggest consequence because you couldfind yourself out the door, which again
could be true from the search andrescue point of view. Sorry, did
that not really ask you a question? Or did I just go on a
bit of the ramble of a Ienjoyed the ramble. Try sure is anywhere
close to the destination requested? Yeah, how about you luck from a training

(01:17:10):
thing, because obviously do you knowa trainer instructure of a stuff? I
think the biggest challenge is to keepthings fresh and not always doing the same
thing all the time, because youcan sort of easily fall into that repeatable
pattern of always doing the same thingalways, you know, going to the

(01:17:31):
same location always, you know,picking the same person to do the same
job or roll, and you sortof get comfortable in that sort of you
know, it's worked because we've hadto do this ten times before, so
we're gonna do it again. Whereasit's it's hard to take that step back
and go, well, actually,let's let's mix it up. Let's let's

(01:17:53):
try something new. We're still learningthe same or we're still teaching the same
ways, but they're getting the differentexper And say, I don't know,
you always go to the same river, whereas this time you'll go to a
lake, or you'll go to somethingdifferent, where you'll make it more of
a engaging as realistic as possible.I mean, I guess that's in search

(01:18:15):
rescue is hard sometimes where you're ina classroom or you're online and trying to
make things real life. But ina training scenario, yeah, So going
back to the riverside, you're inyour ppe, you're throwing a throw line
out. You can't really change that, can you. That is stance standard.

(01:18:39):
You're in your ppe because of this. You do it this way because
it's the current safety way of doingit. You can't really change it up,
can you. But as you say, if you'd make a different location,
a slightly different scenario, maybe thenthat mixes it up enough to keep

(01:18:59):
what you need to get across therebut makes it a bit more different.
Yeah, I get yeah, andyou know that that as as Rich said
earlier, the tools and the toolbox sort of thing, you know,
you you there is only so manyways that you can throw a throw line,
for example, So as long aswe rotate those throwing techniques when we're
training, and it's not always aperson moving water, you know, it

(01:19:23):
could be someone stuck on a rockfoot entrapment, or you know, it
could be we just need to throwa line to the bank to retrieve some
equipment for example. You know,it's still the same skill, but we're
doing slightly different to get to theend result. It's just keeping it,
yeah, taking it over, whichcomes back to sometimes it's how sort of

(01:19:45):
thinking of taking it out in thebox for search exercises, trying to make
them and you imagine it is possibleand doing things slightly differently, but it
does take time and effort. Timeand effort, and whether you're doing if
you're doing it year on year onyear, you can't or you know you're

(01:20:06):
good at some point probably do thesame same things. So maybe from a
training officer's point of view or peopleare doing that, you accept that it's
going to be the same at somepoint, but members, volunteers, et
cetera. Are always seeing something differentbecause they're not actually planning it. And
in that kind of a level ofdetail, so rich back you. Then

(01:20:33):
hardest thing I suppose it's not trainingofficer, but I'm an external Training doesn't
solve everything you and have you.Sometimes the the desired outcome really relies on
other things being changed that aren't training. So it could be equipment choice,

(01:20:54):
it could be chain of command,it could be culture within the organization,
ethos, how things are funded,fitness standards, all of these things that
are not specifically skills training or maintenanceof that. It doesn't matter how good
your training logging system is. Thatcomes up with three months before you're due

(01:21:15):
to expire on this one thing,and then you have to go and do
it if the overall direction of theteam is completely out of whack. Sometimes
you can make your area as goodas it can possibly be and it won't
be enough because the overall pictures screwedup. So that's sometimes the hardest thing.

(01:21:35):
And we we've had that with clientswhere we have delivered more consultancy hours
than we would have needed for deliveringthat training because we've also gone into here's
a review of all your ppe youknow going you are You've taken the advice

(01:21:56):
of somebody who works in the buildingindustry on what is ppe for a building
site that is not appropriate for peoplefield engineers walking up around around mountains.
Go and see our friends at Keiler, go and look at their stuff,
like, you know, this iswhat you need, This is what you
need, This is what you need. You don't want bright orange, not
non breathable waterproofs that have a reallythick insulating layer because it's cold and wet

(01:22:17):
or mountains. What you needed thesebreathable layers. You need lots of thin
layers. You need everything. Youneed to have a layering system, and
you need to be able to trainpeople in the use of it because that
is more appropriate for these conditions.And here's the evidence and also getting that
across maybe to people who just wantyou to fulfill a task based on their

(01:22:41):
understanding of things rather than based onwhat this is. What the problem actually
is there, it's their poor interpretationof the problem they're asking you to solve.
So who's dictating the direction for thewho's dictating who's either analyzing the problem
and how competent are they at analyzingthe problem? Mhm? And is there

(01:23:04):
is there a financial cost that oris it a tick in the box or
is it the reason for doing itor not? I how can I phrase
this example without breaching an NDA Okayclient who works in remote areas doing field

(01:23:25):
work pre long standing relationship with them, but they my contact there recently got
in touch and said, I needevidence for why we do river crossings in
a certain way. So it tendingmore the surfing. You know, this
is how this organization does that.This how this organization does it, and
they all pretty much do it thesame way. Try not to try not
to wade in the rivers. Ifyou can move up face upstream, remove

(01:23:48):
heavy loads, use a pole,moving groups, assess this is how you
assess water depth flow, that kindof thing. They and then asked why
he why are you doing this?So I'm going to go into a meeting
with the health and safety people withinthe organization because they're unhappy with how we
did a river crossing in country xOkay. And afterwards we found out that

(01:24:13):
it's because in their report they wrotethat they were using stepping stones rocks in
the river to get across the riverto the survey site and back. Of
the three team members, two ofthem were quite tall, one of them
was very short, and the twotall people stepped from rock to rock to
rock to get to the site andback. So the shorter person didn't go

(01:24:33):
because it would have been harder forthem to step from rock to rock,
so they just stayed on that sideof the bank fine, within their bounds
of their safety yet, but thatwas read as what by the person in
the health and safety department who orderedit or did it, who is mid

(01:24:54):
twenties and never goes outside. Theyread that as the person the third person
was too short to get across theriver safely. And the way they read
that was the two tall people werewading up to their necks in water and
breathing just above like in a cartoon, and the short person was too short

(01:25:15):
to stand and get the head abovewater, despite that not being suggested anywhere,
because that was how they mentally picturedit. So they had to go
through a whole review process to thesafety protocols of how to do water crossings
despite that not being the problem.So how do you train for people not
knowing what the hell they're talking aboutif they're specifying what the problem is?

(01:25:41):
Hmmm, So how do you can'tresolve that with training? You have to
resolve that with who's making decisions competenceoverall, which is difficult to find in
organizations sometimes, although it's easier involunteer organizations because it's sometimes easier to move
somebody sideways. Go over there,you're more valuable over there in the cupboard.

(01:26:09):
But do you also think that fromthat point of view, most people
are there for well the same reasonbut the similar sort of background. So
they've got those kind of or generalskills which are easier to train because you're
you're you're training them to do atask, whereas somebody remote who, for

(01:26:30):
an order to point of view,is ordered in a process. But if
they're not, if they're doing itremotely, not actually seeing what the process
is, then from a training pointof view, how they're not going to
know that they you to order anddo those things externally, you have to

(01:26:55):
still have a contextual understanding of thatworld. It's way often we get brought
into talk to people about stuff becauseit's an outdoors thing, not an industry
thing. How can I talk tobridge engineers on this site? Well,
because either side of the bridge isa mountain. I know mountain. I
don't know bridge. I know mountainbits, so I can do the mountain

(01:27:17):
bite. But you need someone elsein to come and look at the work
site stuff on the bridge. Butbeing knee bosh qualified for assessing risk means
bogger all. If you don't knowwhat the difference between a light breeze on
a dry, warm day and alight breeze on a cool, damp day.

(01:27:40):
One's one's a pleasant time in alinen shirt. The other one's death.
It's very it's it's a very fineline, isn't it. It's one
parameter different and yes, just warmdamp, cold damp, two very different
things. Cold, dry, coldwet cold minus twenty dry plus five cent

(01:28:04):
celsius wet. I'd give you minustwenty dry any day. Yeah, which
is important thing to learn. Train. Yeah, but it's but if you're
auditor, if you're external standard,if the person your consultant has written,
oh well, there's a lot oftemperatures must be above freezing. If the

(01:28:25):
below freezing, you can't go anddo it. But if they are above
freezing, you're fine. Well,most hypothermia injuries can start above freezing.
Mhmm. Yeah, that's we couldgo on for hours, couldn't we.
We could go go down different rabbitholes. Now with the yeah, training

(01:28:48):
et cetera, and standards and watersand in those standards and processes, and
we need to find a way tofinish. We need strong leadership here,
Luke, strong leadership. Is thereanything left on your list then that you
were you had? No, Ithink we've well and truly done that list.
And anyone who's listened to episodes beforehandof Prepped on Prepped and we've done

(01:29:11):
it. So this is a first. I'd been good. I enjoyed that
awesome. All right, Well,we'll conclude the training bit there then,
and we'll we'll talk about whether ifyou've had any new gear purchases since we've
last chatted, mister Ben, anymore gear purchases. Robbably boots. I

(01:29:44):
think I bought another pair of boots. I've now got a whole room dedicated
to shoes. Helly Hanson. Iwent and went for some Helly handsome boots.
Actually pretty good luck lightweight seemed tobe doing ok for water and dampness

(01:30:05):
on the ground for this non leatherboot that I'm not used to. But
yeah, I think I'm trying toscale back on pay for my lockdown stuff.
They're not bright orange, are theyor they're not all hands and yellow
or no, they're quite subtle.Go for bright stuff and I can help

(01:30:26):
it. Nice rich of you treatedyourself to anything recently, work purchase of
a Motorola Defy satellite link so it'slike a garment inReach but cheaper and you
get the years subscription for your messageswithin it. But it doesn't do tracking

(01:30:46):
yet, so it's talks to asatellite and then talks to your phone via
blue toothing. You can send textmessages to other numbers on around the world
just through the satellite link. Butit needs a view of the scale and
at northern latitudes, so it's upin mid mid Highlands mid Northwestern Highlands about

(01:31:11):
three weeks ago, and you basicallyhad to see the southern horizon for it
to work because the satellites are allgeostationary equatorial satellites, so you need southern
view of the southern sky. Soif you were in a valley that runs
east west and you're on the northernslope with a broken leg, you're screwed.
I'm going to do a proper reviewat some point, but it is
that's the view. So if you'reon a south coast team where you it's

(01:31:34):
either it's either you can see aFrench phone mast or nothing. Fine cracking
for that. But if you're inif you're on say, north of Oben,
no, well you're probably gonna needit in a bit more. But
yeah, is it? Is itpocket size? It's not the size of
a house or no, it's tiny. It's like palm sized. It's yeah.

(01:32:01):
I can't think of any objects atthe same size of it now matchox
No, slightly bigger but not much. That's credit card, credit card but
thicker. Yeah, I think it'sit's like one hundred and fifty grams.
It's not much and the battery lastfor a long time and it goes on

(01:32:24):
a strap on your rucksack strap.There's a chap on your sarcast discord who
will give you a better review becausehe cares more about it than I do.
I think I told him about itoriginally, but he bought one first
and he was up in Scotland withme, so he can talk about it
himself. We'll look forward to thaton the discord Magic. What about you,

(01:32:47):
Luke? Oh well, yeah,Luke got well. I had a
good of some good advice on somenew trousers, a big old trouser listeners.
That was a stack of cider cansfalling over in Luke's office. No,
no, no, no, noiPhone instance. I was. I

(01:33:08):
was making sure I got the nameof the trousers correct. So Richard Kylie
uh uh suggested recommended some trousers fromHelicon, and I managed to get some
Helicon Hybrid out back pants and theyare beautiful if you like nice theven keb

(01:33:28):
trousers where it's got the stretchy panelsand then the canvas panels and you can
watch the wax the canvas panels andthen still step up high and climb and
things. They're like that, butabout a third of the price. Yeah,
that's a good, good brand.Now I've got a few beats from
him. But the same person whorecommended, who got the satellite link before
me, recommended those trousers to me. Oh wow, so they're they're good.

(01:33:53):
Yeah, not one of them inthe anger yet, but yeah,
have you just worn have do youwear trousers in anger? As in they
I've only would around the house yet, I haven't taken them outside. You're
going to wax them. I'm goingto investigate that. Yeah, it ruins

(01:34:14):
the look. You can't wear themdown the tub anymore. But you look
like you're being antiqued. They area vintage look. They look like,
yeah, they look slightly graying thatI wax. I waxed many things.
Oh god, no, it's goingto get clipped, isn't it. Oh

(01:34:35):
well, I could tell you thesize is pretty good as well, so
I was surprised by that. Sothe the sizing was bang on, bang
on the money. If you're agentleman of girthy thigh, they are trousers
for you. If you're a ladyof girthy thigh, actually yeah, but
yeah they were banging. I actuallyhad to send the biggest set back,
which is amazing. Almos the wayrounds. That was a deathly silence,

(01:35:01):
wasn't it would just to contemplate I'mstill taking that rich waxing things. I
love it, really, all right, Luke, please rescuers thet Yeah.
The only other thing we got newwas we got some sarcast patches that arrived
recently, so they're available over onsarstore dot co dot uk. Thank you

(01:35:27):
both and see you on the nextone. Bye bye. It's been a
pleasure. Bye. Thank you Richard, Thank you Ben. We hope you
enjoyed that section. Why not jointhe discussion over on our discord server or
drop us a message on our socials. We love seeing what you get up
to in the world of Sara,so why not tag us in your next
post. We've teamed up with SonyMusic Entertainment to tell you about another podcast

(01:35:50):
you may find interesting, called Rescue. Here is Donnie Dust to tell you
more. I'm Donnie Dust and I'mhere to tell you about our new podcast,
Rescue. Go deep into the heartof the world's most astonishing rescue stories
told by the people who are there. He said, Billy, nine guys
are missing and we think they're trappedunder your farm. Marvel at the links

(01:36:14):
people will go to preserve the mostsacred of things life. Join me,
Donnie Dust, for rescue, defyingfate, defining heroes. Listen wherever you
get your podcasts. Welcome back onthis section of the episode. On I'm
joined by another special guest, Thisperson Hous from the northeast of England here
in the UK. Hello Jamie Patterson, Hey Luke, thanks for having me,

(01:36:38):
No, thank you for joining us. Can you tell the listeners what
you get up to and a quickbio of yourself. Yes. So I'm
Jamie Patterson Sagittarius. I'm a paramedic. I have been in the sum of
the National Park Mountain Rescue Team forabout thirteen or two years now. Obviously

(01:37:01):
I'm the current medical team leader.I I've worked a few places as a
paramedic. Where I started in theNortheast Ambuland Service where I trained. I
did a few years of tech thereas well. Then I went up to
Scotland on the Special Operations Team onthe North Sort Team, which is like
Heart in England essentially, and Icurrently work for the Coast Guard in Bristol

(01:37:30):
helicopters out of home beside as awinchman. And I've just passed my line
check after my have an issue oftraining, so I'm pretty new to that.
Got my first job and jobs andnumber belt there so it's all going
reasonably well. And I'm a paramedicon the UK International Search and Rescue Team

(01:37:50):
where I deployed to Morocco to theearthquake the earlier this year in September.
So not just a man who sitsaround at home twiddlings proms. I'm doing
a lot of that. That's brilliant. So tell us about your journey into
becoming an international Search rescue paramedic.Yeah, so I guess that the big

(01:38:16):
part of that is becoming a paramedicfirst of all. So eight or so
years in the Ambulance Service, trainedas a tech for initially, and then
did my student paramedic course with theNorthy Stambula Service and qualified and then yeah,
about a year year in September,there was an advert came out for

(01:38:41):
the so the UK I SAW Um T, which is the You Saw
Medical Team. So UK I SAWis the Foreign Commonwealth Office and Development Offices
kind of humanitarian arm and it's basedin the UK Fire Fire and Rescue Services.
There's fourteen fire and rescue services whichfeed into that, and the firefighters

(01:39:03):
will specialist and the undergo selection process, et cetera. And the medical team
kind of sit alongside all of thatis an independent kind of team in itself,
but we get attached to kind ofour local unit, if you will.
So I applied for that and thengot to go to selection, which
was an awesome experience. It's involvedbeing taken hostage, bake more buttons,

(01:39:29):
obviously a lot of medical moulageres sometechnical stuff, some water rescue stuff.
Being very tired, I think wehad about an hour and a half sleep
and one of the firefighters summoned itup pretty well recently. He basically just
said, look, what we tryand do in selection is to break everyone,
because everyone will, and just tosee how you react and how you

(01:39:49):
handle that. So, yeah,a really good experience. And yeah,
somehow managed to not get phoned outand got off in the team. M
Oh well, well that sounds likea well a tough selection course, so
well done to you, and yeah, brilliant. That's international search and rescue

(01:40:12):
wickedness. So what what inspired youto get involved with such a rescue in
the first place. So I havealways been a mountaineer, a climber,
you know. Not sitting still haskind of been the theme of it.
Yeah, and I was always theoutdoors, and then I was when I
was at UNI. I was thefirst time rounded in a sports science degree,

(01:40:35):
didn't really know what I wanted todo with myself when I left school,
and I joined the mountain rescue teamwhile I was while I was away
doing that just kind of always kindof wanted to do something that way,
and then that kind of was thewas the start of everything. And my
mum is a nurse, so I'vealways kind of been aware of like the

(01:40:57):
medical field and a little bit interested, I would say. And then as
I got into Mount Rescue, Ithe paramedics and the team and the medics
and stuff kind of said, oh, do you not fancy kind of pursuing
a career in this? And yeah, the rest of it the history I
suppose, but yeah, yeah,that's and I always kind of hold up

(01:41:19):
the Mountain Rescue as a kind ofgateway for me beat you know, entering
into the star world in the paramedicworld and trying to amalgamate those two things
as best I can. I likebeing cold as well, I'm majority,
so that's that, Yeah, goingexpeditions and doing and doing cold stuff and

(01:41:40):
kind of combining that that mountain medicineelement as well as just a real passion
for me. Yeah, I couldsee that. You always like to challenge
yourself as well, which is ais a great need, yea to do.
So your current job, which iswith Bristol as a winch paramedic,
what's what's the typical day you looklike for you at the moment now that

(01:42:00):
you're sort of always always qualified orqualified. Yeah, so I've just passed
on my kind of what walks calledthe line check. So you do all
your all your training as train there'sa lot of synthetic stuff where you go.
You got sent to specialist center.So we got sent to Border which
is absolutely awful Finland to a placecalled Mariturba, which is like a maritime

(01:42:25):
specialist center, big environmental pool,do all the wet winching. And then
to Germany to a place called badTolls and there's a really fantastic facility that
we've got to use. And yeah, so we work twenty four hour shifts,

(01:42:45):
so one till one and typically wewill well every shift we fly for
at least two hours. So weget some training in and we have to
maintain currency and a lot of things. So we've got mountains, currency,
wet winching, situation, winter andcliff winching, all of these things and
situations which you might find on operations. You have to maintain currency and you've

(01:43:09):
got so many days to kind ofrevalidate that, and the crew puts together.
We'll put together a training plan,you know, the pilots lab currencies
to do. We'll have currencies todo that. The winch operate it will
have a currency to maybe tick off. So it's kind of based around what
you need to do and what youwant to do. What's what's the thing
you want to work on. Sometimesthat's dictated by the weather, so you

(01:43:31):
need a lot of wind to dosome of those things. So wet winching
ideally need a lot of wind tomake the training as safe as possible.
And then yeah, all of themedical stuff as well. We have to
maintain and tick off medical currencies everyevery month, so we have to do
a couple of tubes and a coupleof ephoners and cannulation and stuff, and

(01:43:51):
just maintain skills and keep current,keeping the aircraft in order, bag checks,
roll equipment checks. Yeah, ittends to be pretty busy obviously,
and get some rest because that's important. But yeah, it's this days seem
seem to fly by, to behonest, nice intended. So I guess

(01:44:16):
in those training you can sort ofinvolve other agencies as well to sort of
help with those competencies as well.Yeah, absolutely, So you know,
deck winching, when we're winching theboat will often try and speak to the
you know, the local life lifeboatunit when ned the police boats and stuff.
We we can't just kind of flatpick a deck and you know,

(01:44:39):
fly out and give him a shoton the radio. And most of the
time everyone everyone's keen to help outand keen to to you know, be
involved in the training. I guessit's pretty cool. I still think it's
the best show in the world,So yeah, awesome, and I guess,
yeah, it's it's it's never asame day either, I guess in

(01:45:00):
terms of you know, your trainingand then you can get a cool and
yeah, yeah, I would saythat about the Star World. I don't
think any two jobs are the same, even as a part of it.
You know, you get you goto a job and it might be the
same thing on the screen, butultimately it's all generally it's a different person
that you meet and there's a differentstory. And I think that's the best

(01:45:24):
part of the job, is gettingto meet all these these people and all
these hero these stories that you wouldn'thear otherwise. I think that's pretty cool.
And then yeah, yeah, no, no, no two days of
the same certainly on SARW either youknow, you might be out out over
the water, inland, in themountains or responding to an r TC like
where the we'll do it all?So yeah, nice. So you've recently

(01:45:48):
got deployed to Morocco. How wasthat? What did you get to see?
So, yeah, the Morocco earthquakein September was up in the North
of Scotland, having just finished thecourse. I was about to go climbing
in the can guns for a dayor so just to the weekend. Just

(01:46:08):
while I was up there, youknow, killed two birds of one stone
and woke up on the Saturday morningto a message, well basically the BBC
news notification that being an earthquake,and the next message right, who's available
to deploy? And then a caseof get yourself to Bryce Norton, which
is not in the North of Scotland. It's quite a way absolutely passing home

(01:46:31):
on the way and then able topick some stuff up, get myself organized
and then yeah, head down toBrys. Not wanting to meet the team.
So UKISO deployed a heavy team toMorocco, so you can deploy a
light and medium or a heavy teamin it. That's about seventy people in
about fifteen tons of kit which hasto be moved to It was fantastic having

(01:46:56):
the RIF flyers out there to Atlasfour hundreds I think they are. We
were south and yeah, Landers fourhours later at Marrakesh Airport. And I
had been to Morocco previously about tenten years ago, climbing in the Atlas
Mountains and the epicenter was quite highin the Outless Mountains. So we were

(01:47:21):
deployed. Had a base of operationsthat as him is just outside that village
there, and the Moroccans were fantastic. The military supported us really well.
We had infantry trucks transporting the teamsaround, so we split into smaller teams
and we deployed to work sites upin the up in the Atlas Mountains up
to two thousand meters. So yeah, it was it was. I mean,

(01:47:45):
it was my first humanitarian deployment.It was my first deployment with the
team. You know, I'm prettymuch the baby to the team. I'm
the probably the newest guy there,and a massive massive learning curve, not
only in you know how everything worksand how the team set up, and
you know, just your daily adminputting yourself together for the day, what

(01:48:06):
you need, what you don't need. The heat, the heat of working
up there, also working at altitude, and the biggest kind of thing for
me was dealing with the it's justI can't describe it other than you know,
devastration and on a on that scale, and that it's you know,

(01:48:27):
we we see it on the newsall the time, but nothing really prepares
you to see it in real life. And what you don't get on the
on pictures on the news is theis the intricate details of you know,
the people who are there and youknow, the personal belongings that are in
the rubble, and these things kindof jump out of you when you were
they certainly for me you're there,and then the risk, the risks that

(01:48:48):
you're taking as well. We wereup at a village called imian Tala where
the village is kind of built intothe mountain side and the cliffs of of
it has essentially just collapsed and there'sbeen a huge landslide, you know,
in a million terms of earth hadcome down on this remote, remote village

(01:49:09):
and I was kind of standing theregoing well, where do where do we
even start with this? But again, one of the biggest things for me
was being part of that team.That first day for me, we were
deployed and you know, we're outin that that kind of environment. And
the firefighters who I was, whoI was working with, not that day,

(01:49:31):
but the whole deployment were just fantastic. A lot of them have been
deployed all over the world. Youknow, they've been the team for years.
You know, went to Nepal,went to Turkey earlier in the year,
et cetera, and and have andbrought that experience to bear, you
know, just the absolute best ofwhat they do in the world. And

(01:49:53):
I did have a I did havea moment or two while I was standing,
you know, blow this cliff inthis rubble, hundreds of people around,
digging, digging to try and findsurvivors and and you know, recover
people, and yeah, I waslike, I don't want to be here.
You know, on my mountaineer,I get it man versus mountain man.

(01:50:15):
Man usually comes, you know,losers the mountain wins. And I
can't definitely have this kind of fiveminutes. I was like, don't want
to be here. What am Idoing? You know, I'm taking these
risks blah bah blah, which Ithink it. I'm totally honest. Well,
I think is a perfectly normal reactionto the situation that you're infinitely I

(01:50:35):
think it would be weird not tohave that reaction. But then looking around
me and going, well, theseguys are all getting on with it,
and oh are taking the same riskI am, But they're taking those risks
because I'm here to look after them. So our main rule as the MT
is to provide you know, goodstandard preosspital care to the teams should they

(01:50:57):
get injured. And then the secondaryrule is to provide care to anyone who's
trapped within the rubble who the teamteam get to. So you know,
I was I kind of gave myselfa bit of a shake, looked around
me, and the guys rule,you know, get cracking on getting one
with the job. So yeah,and after that, I never really thought
about it again. You know,a flying a helicopter for living, which

(01:51:23):
you know is it is a dangerousthing to do, but yeah, that's
that's you know, you've trained forall these things and there's plans upon plans
about plans about what's going to happen, and the same was true out there.
You know, there was a riskmanagement strategy, a safe system of
work, and everything was it wasplanned to the nth degree and the teams

(01:51:45):
that were working with were just fantastic, and yeah, we were caught.
We went to the same place againa few days later and we were While
we were there, there was anaftershock, which was quite strang because if
you've never been in an earthquake onafter shock, you don't know what it
feels like. There For a second, you go, what's that and then

(01:52:06):
the kind of hive mind kicks inand everyone goes oh, and it just
starts running and it's quite difficult toyou know, you're in contact with home
and your friends and your family,and you know, you say not like
they know what you're going to do, but they don't really know where you
are. And you say, oh, no, we're not there, We're

(01:52:27):
not doing this. You know,you tell a few white lives to just
keep everyone a bit happier back home, I suppose, And then you know
you're in your bright orange suit withyou know, your bright yellow gloves on
on the BBC news getting caught inafter shock, and your family recognize you
by like you left me. It'sthat the hardest part of that was explained
to everyone like like we were allright, yeah, yeah it was but

(01:52:51):
yeah, that was a weird experience. And yeah, being part that,
you know, almost a stampede,but again part of that team, and
everyone was pretty relaxed and not ina las Fair attitude. But you know,
right, this is what happened inand this is what we're going to
do. And there was a fewpeople who were injured in that, so

(01:53:13):
I was providing a little bit ofyou know, just first aid and wound
dressing and things, and yeah,I suppose you just get on with the
job you've got to do. Andlike I say, after that, for
kind of first day, I didn'treally I didn't really consider it. Again.
I was just like, well,this is what we're doing now,
this is what we're doing now,and you get on with I suppose,
yeah, I suppose it helps withthat sort of where you fit within the
team and how it works with therelike that bigger picture isn't it is?

(01:53:34):
You know, you've for got eachother's backs and you're there for that role
and reason, which yeah, youknow, you being new to the team,
you're like, well do I dothis or do that? But it's
kind of just I feel that itwas either time to say I don't want
to be here on not doing this, or you step up and you do

(01:53:56):
the rule you know you plan todo. I don't think paramedicine or preospital
care is different anywhere in the world. Humans are humans, medton is medicine.
You do your best for whoever itis and where the resources that you've
got, you do your best.So that was the job to do.
So that was that. Yeah,I don't know if iantage your question or

(01:54:16):
not. That's that's brilliant. Yeah, thank you, thank you so much.
So I think I saw something thatyou rescued animals as well, is
that right? Yah. One ofthe days we was deployed to a village
in the mountains and there was adonkey kind of trapped within a collapsed building
and the team were tasked. Sowe get tasked. The team get tasked

(01:54:40):
by the U n WE, theI SAW team invited by the host Cannation,
any of the international teams after thespan the Spanish with their the Kataris,
et cetera, and we were giventhat task to go and help this
help them get this donkey out ofthis building, which again was a was

(01:55:00):
a you know a really I wouldsay a positive experience for what it was
because we were able to do that, do it safely, and you know
that that animal is you know,it seems a little bit trivial perhaps if
you're living in the west, butyou know, to a village in the
mountains, that's who that's worked foryears to come and yeah, like when

(01:55:24):
we arrived, there's obviously you know, families and kids and you know,
want to play football with you andsome of that. We were interacting with
them, and yeah, it wasthe Moroccan people that were just fantastic and
they were you know years ago andI went in the mountains that were so
hospitable. But when people have lostabsolutely everything and they had not very much

(01:55:47):
to start with, and they're they'restill offering you, you know, tea
and food and chocolate bars and allsorts. It's just it kind of it's
quite an emotional experience. Actually.Yeah, to be able to be able
to go and do that and makesure that you know that that that was
that was a little kind of somethingwe could do. Then that was a

(01:56:09):
positive thing of have done. Ithink brilliant. So just just touching on
your UK, I saw sort ofwhat what training do you have to do
to sort of maintain that. Soyou it's kind of it's kind of a
few fold so it's a bit ofa it's a bit of a portfolio of

(01:56:31):
stuff really. So obviously you haveto maintain a high degree of medical skill,
not only in you know, emergencymedicine and and trauma medicine. It's
minor injury stuff. You know,somebody might have a wound that needs take
care of for a few days.And it's not just about being siloed as
a paramedic though a lot of peoplewill probably say, well what is a

(01:56:56):
paramedic these days? Like we weare everywhere, like we'll the So yeah,
it's about going to I've learned alot from nurses. So you know,
the nurses are the masters of ouncare. They are the jedis on
it. They know their stuff.And there's nurse nurses. There's a nurse

(01:57:16):
on the team, so you know, you learn a lot from them,
and you learn a lot from thedoctors. So yeah, maintaining your medical
skills in a broad kind of spectrumand then your specialist kind of use of
medicine. So there's particular you know, cross injury syndrome H and particular protocols

(01:57:36):
that you have to know and beaware of. And then this week the
team are in Switzerland on the iE R. So it's the revalidation that
the UN put us through to classifythe team as a as a heavy team
and you know they're part of theInternational Search and Rescue Advisory Group from from

(01:57:57):
there, so those skills are testedand maintained. And then I think it's
about kind of technical rescue competence.So we did as a as a u
m T, we did a swiftwater Rescue technician course in Wales last December
cold The tagline was break the iceas you get in, which was fantastic,

(01:58:19):
you know, being able to becausethe team deployed to Malawi earlier in
the year to the to the astorm response and we're working, you know,
in that kind of water rescue environment. So having that technical competence to
be able to be a competent partof a technical team and not be kind
of a burden to the firefighters whohave to keep one eye on you is

(01:58:43):
I think that's really really valuable.So rescue skills and a little bit of
use or stuff. So recently Iwas up in Scotland attended a Scottish Fire
and Rescue Service day who are partof ice AL and they doing some shoring
so which is essentially where you buildwooden structures out of timber to shore up

(01:59:08):
collapsed buildings and make them strong.And there's a certain technique of doing it,
as with anything, so it's abouthaving the awareness of right, well
what is that and what does thisword mean? And what are they doing
then, and how can I beuseful? I think that for me in
any in any area, if youknow, if you know the team you're
working in and you know the jobsthat they've got to do, you can

(01:59:28):
kind of a little bit more usefuly. Can't just stand there and go,
well, I'm the paramedic, I'mnot doing anything. Yeah, yeah,
you have to get your hands dirty, and I think that's that's a big
part of it, to be honest. I suppose you can then see potentially
where where the biggest risks are whenthey're doing different you know, as they're
shoring it up, for example,moving in the heavy equipment, you're sort
of then your sort of brain's going, well, you know, this could
happen or that could happen exactly,and if you're about to go in there

(01:59:51):
to go and get someone or orlook after someone, like, I'd rather
know, you know a little bitabout what I was about and if things
go don't. So if I'm doingsome you know, medical stuff and one
of the secretor medics is there,he says Jamie, I thought that was
this and I'm doing so wrong.But oh thanks very much, like just
sense checking things. So yeah,I ask a lot of stupid questions,

(02:00:12):
but that's that's the best way tobe. It's the same. It's the
same in the Star World on theaircraft as well. Like a big part
of my job as being an aircrewand not just a winch paramedic. But
that's stuff that's just probably the smallerpart of my job. It's being a
component member of that that aircrew andhaving a situational awareness and what's happening next
and you know why things are doingthis way, et cetera. So I've

(02:00:36):
kind of I've kind of taken thatcassette and transfers it into a lot of
a lot of different areas. Ithink, nice, nice, brilliant.
So another question, so, howdo you coordinate with other team members?
When you're out on your so firstlyinternational search for rescue. So within the

(02:00:58):
ice OAR team, it's it's verystructured, really structured. There's a Command
and Control cell who are constantly lookingat taskings. They those guys and I
saw as first hand work around theclock to ensure that you know, we're
getting we're getting the appropriate taskings.They interrogate the taskings. So from our

(02:01:21):
command and Control cell, they'll feeddown into the teams and we might go
out into out your Red and Blueteam, So you might be with Red
team one day and you're one oftwo medics or three metix with them for
the day to a particular work site. The taskings that the command cell get
are from the United Nations use ourcoordination center, So there's a particular branch

(02:01:47):
of the United Nations response which dealswith the urban search and rescue side of
things, and they'll work with youknow, local community leaders and government and
local emergency services to coordinate where bestto put these responses and where best to
you know, put the team andyou know the certainly Morocco, we have

(02:02:08):
the Spanish and the Katari team aswell, so what are they doing and
how can we compliment each other orare we going to different places or what
have they seen? And the intelligencewas back as well, So it is.
It is massively. I didn't getinto the detail of this. I
was too busy. My head wasa bit on fire with everything else.

(02:02:30):
But yeah, it seems to meto be massively well orchestrated and well organized
to a surgical to a surgical level. Definitely nice, that's brilliant. Yeah,
yeah, it must be. Yeah, so many people to manage,
and so many different teams and languagesand all the stuff it needs that sort
of surgic surgical and then cultural sensitivitiesand you know, if we're going to

(02:02:56):
a work site to do a job, or what tools are we're going to
need and are they available or dothe other team need a tools or you
know, there's just so much planningthat goes into a really fine level of
detail. Which I said this tothe leaders out there. One of the
the best leadership experiences I find,our best team experiences was was that deployment

(02:03:19):
where we're constantly kept au dated withwhat was going on behind the scenes and
why we were getting certain task insand what was going on in the bigger
picture, which is really important becauseyou're on a little a little base of
operations and we the team is totallyself sufficient. You know, we've got
our own food and water on sheltershowers the lost or on mini hospital,

(02:03:45):
so we don't put a burden onand already you know, a devastated infrastructure.
So two to have all that kindof set up and then you know,
feed that into operations and the biggerpicture, it seems to me,
It seemed to me to be areally effective leadership team, really effective.

(02:04:10):
Is there anything that you've learned thatyou've sort of brought back for your Mount
to Rescue team from that or anylearnings? H Yeah, that's a good
question. So everything that I do, I kind of I don't feel lot
that you know, I know thisnow so nobody else is allowed to know
it. Like I'm a paramedic thatmy job is to help people. So

(02:04:31):
if I know something, then everyoneelse should know it. If I've learned
a lesson that no one else shouldhave to learn, it is the hard
way I probably have. So Ithink the biggest, the biggest lesson for
me out of that was probably justthat do I think that the the big

(02:04:53):
challenge of SAR and mountain rescue isthat you have limited resources. And to
me that that was the big thingon the deployment was that I had a
bag of medical kit and then itwas a case of either linking in with
another team or calling for backup,so being as prepared as possible in kind
of just running through everyth right,what's the what's the worst thing that can

(02:05:15):
happen to me today or the teamand then go back from there because you
can't you can't. I mean peoplepeople joke with me and so have you
got your hospital and your bag.You can't take everything. You can't take,
you know, loads and loads ofstuff, but you can be as
prepared as possible. And I thinkthere's a level of preparedness which I've learned

(02:05:38):
that I'm prepared to go with.And if I don't have this stuff,
then not that we can't do thejob, but if the stuff's there then
and I can carry it, thenI'm gonna do that. And I think
that it's one of the it's oneof the privileges of being a medic is
that you get to carry more bagsthan everybody else because everyone else wants to
look after them, you know,when I say that with a bit of

(02:06:01):
tongue in cheek because everyone's always reallykind of wanting to help you out and
stuff that. But as a medicyou should be the one with the most
the most stuff to carry it andnot being shy about it and have it
having it set up in a waywhere you know you're not digging around for
torny keys for a custury bleed thatshould be readily accessible. And I guess

(02:06:25):
that's kind of come from a youknow, a career of expedition medicine and
doing stuff and mention mentioned though it'syou know, different pathologies and stuff and
different problems and different environments. Theway you set things up is pretty pretty
similar. So you have your littlefirst response kit, which is you know,
major bleeds and airway and breathing,and then everything else can be in

(02:06:45):
your barg somewhere. I think,yeah, do you have that in like
a pouch or like a I've gotpouches everywhere. I've kind of got my
well, what what kind of isan eye fork? Uh? Some Mere
Supplies do some great kit. They'vegot a little kind of eye fork.

(02:07:06):
And I've just got my cat shop, my cat hem stuff and just a
few minority stuff. We don't haveto to dig out a large Yeah.
So you've got a bit of abit of big stuff and a bit of
little stuff. So you've got someplasters and bitter pieces just so, and
that's the most stuff that you useit at the end of the day.
And then the smallest paramedic kit bagI've been able to to fashion, so

(02:07:32):
I've got it down to the beoutthe size of a laptop now, although
a little bit thicker. Yeah,so I'm not carrying on a massive response
bag. And then yeah, sothat's kind of how I set things up.
And then in the on the deployment, we had kind of sector metic
bags and then we set them upkind of personally how we want it.

(02:07:54):
So that was like my bag forthe deployment. I was responsible for that,
so I had that sort of howI how I wanted it, Yeah,
which is kind of a it's kindof a nice thing because I know
stuff is and you're able to it'sit's it's doing the thinking before you need
to think about it. So havingthat kitch out where you know everything is
and you've learned it, albeit veryquickly, so you don't have to think

(02:08:18):
about those things when you when youactually need it. Yeah, just to
offload that kind of cognitive burdens.That's pretty cool. That's that's wicked.
So obviously, like following in theday, job must be pretty mentally and
emotionally taxing sometimes, So how doyou manage the stress and emotional impact of
of the work another very good question. It's I I I've been from totally

(02:08:46):
honest. I don't think I amvery good at this. I think that
you know, I deployed to Moroccoat the end of that end of the
course, nine days of Morocco witha bit of ur and O when I
got home at the end, andthen you know, straight back to work.
That's live at the end of theday. You know, at the

(02:09:09):
time, I was still doing mytraining, so that was definitely my focus.
And between between those shifts where youknow, you everything you do is
being watched, everything you do isbeing assessed, and you're being supported and
if you're not doing things right,then you're being instructed on how to do
things better. And I'm I'm personallyI'm a bit of a perfectionist. It

(02:09:31):
might not to anyone that knows me, It might not seem that way,
but like it. I'll hold myselfto to very very high standards for various
different reasons, and I think that'soften to my detriment. And I think
one of the big things I've learnedthis year is that it's all right to

(02:09:54):
kind of you don't have to belike beating yourself up with both things.
That's not the way you do thingsyou do need And it sounds cliche and
that when I when I first gottold this, I was a bit like,
right whenever, But you do haveto treat yourself like you would treat
someone else, you know, andbe the that nice, the nice voice
in your head, because if thevoice in your head is horrible and it's

(02:10:16):
constantly getting you downe then it doesn'tmatter when anyone else because there's always that.
Yeah. I think sleep. Sleepis the best thing in the world.
If you want something that's going toenhance your performance and you know,
health improvements, your cognitive performance,it's gonna enhance every area of your life.

(02:10:37):
Sleep is it. And that's that'sa simple answer, and just I
think prioritizing that is really really important. I think, you know, I
worked in the NHS for years andeveryone you know, you were doing twelve
thirteen, fourteen to fifteen hour shifts, having you eleven hours off and then

(02:10:58):
come in in there next day,and by the end of the runner shifts,
you've you've been to see you know, you might have seen ten ten
people are shift. It would varyboth. I think that you know,
that's a result of the pressures,and you know, everyone everyone kind of
knows that. But I think thatwhen I was working like that, like

(02:11:20):
I must have been tired, Imust I would definitely not be performing my
best within that. So yeah,definitely in your rest periods, resting and
prioritizing sleep, but resting how youwant to rest. So me, sitting
watching the Telly like, it's justnot not a good thing, and I'm

(02:11:41):
just like, what a waste time, blah blah. Sometimes that's good,
but a lot of times it's youknow, for me, it's about you
know, going for a run orgoing for a walk outside or doing doing
something restorative. You're not just sittingaround because yeah, the voice in my
head gets a bit loud, butI'm not. I don't think I've got

(02:12:03):
that balance right yet. To beperfectly honest, I have you know,
I've gone to speak to people professionallyover the years, you know, not
only to balance out my professional life, but you know, stuff happened personally,
and that's a big thing as well. Like we're talking about my professional
kind of experience. Here behind allthat is my entire life, which I'm

(02:12:26):
perfectly happy to talk about, butit's probably not as interested. But you
know, it's those things that getyou, you know, the the car
breaking down on you and you're justlike, this is another thing that I've
got to think about. And it'sthose things that kind of you know,
if those things aren't right, thenyou can't if the bank accounts empty,
you can't keep taking money out.Yeah, you've got to I think those

(02:12:48):
things and yeah, organizational stuff.But yeah, if anyone knows the secret,
I'm allars stick it on the discord. I'm glad you said sleep.
Actually, I know quite a lotof Vultra Marathon runners and they say sleep
is one of those things that theythey really do take care of. And

(02:13:09):
topping up that deprivation bank is Yeah, it really makes a difference. And
I've just seen, I just readand looked at so much, and especially
coming into aviation where fatigue is areally big big thing because of a safety
issue and it is actually held upand you you know you can, you

(02:13:30):
can, you're allowed, and you'reexpected to report when you're fatigued, and
that scene is a good thing todo. I think that culture shift from
you know, working yourself to deathwhat that was a bit of like both
of me has gone. Well,the one way I can feel better about
anything is to get some good sleep. You know, in life's going to
be better if if you've if you'vemanaged that, and I think the kind

(02:13:56):
of again, another catalyst for thatwas the selection process because they didn't let
sleep. And that's the worst bitof it is like I just wanted to
sleep. I remember lying down andsleeping wherever I could, like our gate
is a pillow one day, andjust just trying to get shout wherever you
can. But yeah, I thinkthat's that's the biggest thing, and it's
it's it's not easy, but itis that simple, I think awesome.

(02:14:20):
So in terms of like gear andlike technical logical advances, is there anything
that's you've seen in the last sortof five years that's really made an impact
into what you do search to rescuewise? Yeah, absolutely so I think
that technology, it's moved like massivelymoved on in the last five or ten

(02:14:43):
years. I think that the theuse of well, the improving communications kind
of picture, so Starling things are. I think Starling's gonna going to just
change the world massively. And oncethat we can you know, the next
ten years when that becomes a commonthing and the price has come down and

(02:15:07):
as technology moves on, I thinkthat that will it will just open so
many doors for for you know,humanity and at large, but teams.
So we've got a stop a starlinklink satellite with with the Mountain Rescue team
now and the Wi Fi we getin the middle of nowhere is better than

(02:15:30):
stuff got the house, you know, the vehicles or you've got you know,
you know, if you get alittle portable kind of satellites or whatever,
like, I think I think thatwill transform search and rescue as a
whole. And I think the theapplications for the you know, the wider
world, humanitarian medicine, et cetera. With that reach back capability and calling

(02:15:54):
and stuff like just that that's goingto be an absolute game changer. Drone
technology as well, and I thinkit doesn't get talked about very positively.
But I think AI has got abig part to play in the world,
and I think absolutely we need touse it and use it ethically like any
technology. But you know, applyingAI to you know, a search camera

(02:16:16):
on a drone where it can itcan pick up intelligently that that head bobbing
around in the water, whether ahuman might not see that, or there
would be a big bit of luckand happenstance of both, et cetera.
I think the applications of that willwill be phenomenal as well. Yeah,
I totally agree with you. Yeah, well, we know, we know

(02:16:37):
that Ralph in Norway is he's they'realready doing that with AI, doing on
avalanches and stuff like that. Andwe know we know some other people who
are doing some droning stuff for differentorganizations and that that's using AI as well.
And I mean even just flying inmedical supplies via drone game tanger to

(02:16:58):
apply which is devastated, got noinfrastructure to you know, have big planes
come and drop stuff off from youcan get those vital medicines around. So
yeah, in the cost benefits,well, I think that's an article this
week or last week where I thinkthe Norwegian air ambulance rather will tell you
I'm trying to develop the CTS kindof fits in the back of the aircraft.

(02:17:24):
The the the technology is, thepotential for it is absolutelymense. I
think that it just needs the rightbucking in the infrastructure to maintain it.
Yeaheah. Also that I've seen adseven the size of those are sort of
becoming smaller and smaller as well.Fit in your pocket now, it's yeah,

(02:17:48):
awesome. So if there's anything youthink that people should understand about work
and search rescue, is there anythingpeople could understand more about it in terms
of the general population or general population? I think that some good questions tonight.

(02:18:18):
If I'm totally honest, I thinkthat people a lot of people don't
realize how much SAW in the UKand I imagine around the world is voluntary.
Yeah, and people are still shockedwhen it's so, well, how
much do you get paid for myrescue? And I'm like, what,
it's voluntary and you know, youget to go in some good courses and

(02:18:39):
you know, stuff like that.But as I say, you know,
not rescue might pay for a course. But if I ever use the skills
anywhere else, I'm bringing back stuffto the team and that education kind of
is coming full circle. But yeah, I think people I'm really surprised that
people don't don't know that, youknow, mountain rescue, lowland search and

(02:19:03):
rescue, there's loads, and it'sit's I always I'm always blown away.
Now when we turn to jobs,there's like everyone's there and you're like,
oh, I didn't even know youguys existed and voluntary critical care teams and
basic services and there's so many peopleout there giving up their time and their
energy and their passion wanting to help. You're almost spoilt for choice about who

(02:19:26):
to call. So yeah, Ithink I think that that you know,
how much volunteer work, how manypeople there are doing stuff like that,
and what what those people are sacrificing, because you know, your personal relationships
aren't always enhanced by you know,getting called out on your only night off

(02:19:50):
during the week when you're only athome for four years or something, or
you know, I'm doing I'm doinga training session, so I can't I'm
not going to be go to thatthing or in prioritizing those things. So
yeah, that's probably the main thing. Yeah, a lot of stuff,
but that's the main thing. Andwhat advice would you give someone who's considering

(02:20:15):
considering volunteering in search rescue? Doit the best thing you ever do?
Yeah, I think that a lotof people when I when I go and
teach stuff, So I work forworld actually medicine as well, and I
go and teach exhibition medicine all overthe world, and people will ask me
for advice and say at the endof course, and they'll go, what

(02:20:37):
do I need to do next?And I'm like, mate, just go
out and do some stuff like youdon't need you need to be competent in
your in your you know, ifthere's a medical thing, but you need
to be confident in the field thatyou're operating. So if you're if you're
a want to be a repe technician, you need to be good at Europes.
If you're a swift water rescue technician, you need to be good in
the water to be able to swim. If you're a medic you need to

(02:20:58):
be really good at your medicine.However, you also need to be good
in your environment and where you wantto operate. There's no I'm not going
to take you. You might bethe best medic in the world. But
if you keep losing your gloves ona training session, like You're not the
one I'm going to take on anexpedition to the Arctic, because You're just
going to be a liability and I'mgoing to spend more time looking after you
than I am anyone else. Soyou know that confidence and confidence, But

(02:21:22):
the confidence side is just to beable. Just go and push some doors
and see what happens. You know, do that, Do that in a
in a safe place and in asafe way. Don't go don't just disappear
at ben Nevers one day and giveus work to do. Oh god,
but I think you do have topush the push those doors and push the

(02:21:43):
boat a little bit, like youknow, go a job interview. I
always kind of say that pe willlike get into rooms you're not supposed to
be in, Like, don't breakinto places. But like go on courses
where people go, what you doinghere? You're not you're not qualified to
be here. Well I'm not putthem here, so yeah, yeah,
I'll learn this stuff. And Ispent I think I spent a long time,

(02:22:05):
especially when I was a technician,and it's all about the technician life.
Uh, be a technician that,you know, I went on courses
which were for paramedics and doctors andblah blah blah, and just kind of
got into those rooms and learned thoseskills and got loads of experience, which
is now kind of serving me wellbecause that was you know, five,
six, seven, eight years agoand I've kind of built on that experience.

(02:22:30):
So yeah, this the scope ofnot you might have a scope of
practice, but the scope of knowledgeis infinite. And yeah, so my
advice would be push on doors,go after it. Find someone who's doing
what you want to do, andgo and annoy them and getting to tell
you and learn from them. Uhyeah, don't be shy about it.
Like you don't need permission. Youmight need a qualification, or you might

(02:22:54):
need you know, experience or thosethings. We can go and get those.
You don't need mission. Just youknow, sign up for stuff.
You know, got the interview,volunteer for the team, like whatever,
and you'll be surprised what happens.Like I'm eternally surprised that when I'm sitting
here telling the stories about earthquakes andI like, that's not that's not me

(02:23:16):
we're talking about. It's crazy.Still picture yourself So we talked a bit
about gear earlier, but he talksabout your mere supplies. I packer stuff.
Is is there any other gear thatyou got to have in your in
your kit? Oh mate, Ilove gear. I've got a fun run

(02:23:37):
and a garage from you. Sothe big things for me are you need
to be able to We talked toyou know a little bit about you know,
mobile hospital and having really heavy bags, but you need to be able
to stop some bleeding, clear andairway start and breathing and be able to
you know, maintain minor injuries andkeep people going because ultimately we're only going

(02:24:01):
to do so much and then whoeveris your patient needs to go some to
a large building with lots of lightsand heating and lots of clever people inside
it. Evacuation is a big oneas well. So yeah, primary survey
kind of how are we going todeal with all those major problems, the
method of evacuation and again doing thatthinking before we need to think about it,

(02:24:24):
and keeping people warm. So whenwe're teaching and my mentor is one
of my mentors is a nurse calledVancouver who is a member of dail team,
who is a charge nurse and Ithink he's an advanced nurse partition,
advanced care practitioner. I wanted tovery very experienced. But his thing that

(02:24:48):
he's taught me in the thing thatI banded about a lot is bothies before
bandages. So obviously a bothy isa mountain hut in Scotland and in tactical
medicine we have the phrase bullets beforebandages. So win the fight and then
treat you deal with injuries in sorrowor mountain medicine or wherever it's win that

(02:25:11):
environment and then do your medicine,do good medicine in good places. There's
no point in you know, gettingyour hands numb, freezing cold, trying
to candilate someone a minus thirty notgoing to happen. They need to be
you know, putting a burrito,which is a recognized technique of how to
interlated somebody from the cold, stopstop them getting colder. Because we know

(02:25:35):
hypothermia is massive well anecdotically, hypothermis massively under report, especially in the
UK. If your patient becomes hypothermic, the casual becomes hypothermic at any point
in their patient journey, you're goingto have more level higher levels of pain
reported, more infections, worst prognosis, longer stays in hospital, et cetera.

(02:25:58):
Being cold is really bad. Soboth of these before bandages win that
environment and make sure they're warm.So blizzard bag for me is a massive
one. There's obviously loads of varietiesin the market, but yeah, I
always think of patients in terms ofthermodynamics, So how am I preventing that
radiation, convection, conduction, evaporation, And then yeah, group shelter,

(02:26:20):
group shelters worth his weight in gold. Just get you into a nice,
you know, secure and controlled environmentout of whatever the weather is, and
you can deal with what you've got. And yeah, some some insulations.
Some sleeping bags. We use aI think it's cooled urn bag, so

(02:26:43):
it's rather tell about is Hunter's blanket. But they come in bright orange as
well, so don't don't buy loadsof camera kit buy highly brightly colored stuff
for people like what was he wearing? All black? Black? Right?
Yeah, So these these bags aredesigned that they're like big ponchos, but

(02:27:07):
their waterproof and they're really really warmsynthetic kind of insulation, but they're really
light as well, so they're perfectfor the job. And they've got little
armholes so you don't have to unwrapsomeone to be able to take their blood
pressure or give some medication or somethingthat. So they're they're fantastic. Yeah,
decent rocksack thing. I think thatpeople. You know, you can

(02:27:28):
look at improvised stretches and rope stretchesand all this stuff, but most people
in their outdoors will have a rocksackon. A rocksack is designed to bear
weight. If your patient's got aroocks track rooksack on, they've already got
handles on them. So if youneed to pick them up and shift them,
you can obviously within the context ofyou know, the patient and blah
blah blah, but you can makea pretty good stretcher out of a few

(02:27:52):
rooks ACKs and certainly move someone toa better place. So yeah, it's
for me, it's about keeping itsimple. And and there's a chap who
is a PJ in America. Iforget his name now, but he said
something recently which stuck with me,which was to keep it simple smart,
not keep it somethle stupid. Butyou know, do that thinking before.
You need to think and make thosepre plans, like if this happens this

(02:28:16):
is what we're doing, you know. That's that's how we do things in
the aircraft. This isn't it.If there's a problem, we go through
a checklist. We don't have tothink, well what do we do now
and spend half an hour doing that. It's well, these are the actions
and this is what we're doing andgetting people to buy and so yeah,
in terms of other kid and stuff, I suppose I've got my favorite and

(02:28:39):
a little bit, but I thinkthat's kind of it. Yeah, awesome,
that's awesome. I guess is thereany sort of memorable bluepers or funny
moments that you can share with usfrom your second long experience? I mean,

(02:29:03):
so so many the whole thing.Yeah, get a good question,
think and stuff. But I thinkevery everyone will have a little story where
they have a laugh or something,and a lot of them are you have
to be the kind of thing becauseit's you know, that team or that
person and it's funny because it wasthem, because it was me or whatever.

(02:29:24):
But I've had all sorts of things, let me think. So it's
the trouser ripping ones which I lovethat always in the wrong moment at the
wrong time. Yeah, I've definitelyhad one or two of those doing some

(02:29:46):
avalanche rescue training in Slovenia and bendingdown and feeling the butt of your walk
oh mate. But yeah, justso much stuff. Yeah, some of
that I can't probably shouldn't. Thenagain, it goes back to that,

(02:30:07):
like what would I like, Saw, and you know you can rescue,
you mount and rescue. Being inthe UK, Saw, I saw everything
like you'll be. You're part ofthe team and you're part of the like
minded individuals as well, and it'salways just the right laugh, always the
right laugh, and either people goto rescue. I always kind of talk

(02:30:33):
about the crack you have with someonewhen they're on the stretcher because they're like
bound there and they can't move.So the worst jokes that I know come
out at that point. But it'slike there's it's it's a bit tongue in
cheap, but it takes the mindnot things as well. So definitely no
specific stories that come to mind manybut yeah, Saw and every every team

(02:30:58):
you and has its unique kind ofsense of humor and yeah, awesome,
all right, Well, some ofour listeners on the discord have written some
questions, so I'll have a browseand hopefully you can either you will have
an answer or your you won't know. So they're all from around the world.

(02:31:20):
So the first one up is howdo you train? How does your
team train course skills? For mountainrescue. Sure, we have an annual
training program which is laid out sopeople can see ahead of time. You
know, they might have particular skillsor currencies that they want to work on.

(02:31:43):
So a paramedic or a doctor forinstance, might not need to come
to that much medical training, andthey might prioritize going to water training all
tech rescue training. I think withpersonally my view with volunteer services as it's
about giving people as much opportunity totrain in those skills as possible. Yeah,

(02:32:05):
volunteers give up the time, butthey also need the opportunity to go,
Well, if I can't make thissession, I'll go to that session.
So being provided opportunities and making thatas flexible as possible. I've always
tried to do that as well,and I've always kind of said to my
medics that, you know, ifthere's something I want to do or whatever,
especially leading up to exams time,I'll make myself as available as possible.

(02:32:28):
And they just just reach out kindof thing. Yeah, And then
I think the main you know,whatever skill it is, I think practicing
it in a high for delete environmentwhere you are doing things as you would
do them in real life. Youknow, from how you are engaging with

(02:32:48):
people, how you're communicating, howyou're doing things with your hands and executing
skills. I think doing those inhigh for delicate environments for having little bit
of stress. You know, I'mquite famous for shouting at people sirens going
off and stuff are. But Ithink that there's a there's a big one

(02:33:09):
of my kind of big passions isthe human factor and the human performance and
how those things that take keep abandwidth. Like you know, you're driving
along trying to find address and youturn the radio down so you can see
better. Like what's that about?Yeah, being able to inoculate yourself from
with that stress and that kind ofmuscle memory of all right, this is
what I have to do now.Make things. You know when people talk

(02:33:33):
about the training kicked in, Ithink making those those things kind of automatic
and you know, do not thinkingahead of time. Again, it's a
big thing. And yeah, justmaking sure that the you might train in
a skill. You know, agroup a group of people might get together
and do a skill, but haseveryone got to the level that is expected

(02:33:54):
or they need? Are they confident? And more than that, are they
comfortvident in what they what they haveto do? See opportunity time, you
know, finding reading around the subject, finding ways to do things better or
differently, or applying it to adifferent situation or a strange situation. That

(02:34:16):
those would be my kind of topthings, I guess perfect, Thank you.
Next one is how do you selectteam members for bad weather operations in
mounterist terrains if that's even applicable?So I mean selecting anyone for for any
team. There's a massive part ofit. There's a really good book about

(02:34:37):
the New Zealand All Black rugby teamcalled The Legacy, which is a fantastic
read. And they've got particular rules, you know, like no rudeness is
one of their things, Like ifyou're rude, that's you know, I
think I selection kind of it.Don't get your personality as well. So
when I when I broke, Ijust got really cheeky, which you know,

(02:35:03):
subsequently then they took me hostage andstressed me out more to see if
I would see if I would yougo further down that line and how I
would react, which was a massiveline experience for me. It's not every
every weekend you get to go andto that level. So yeah, when
I'm when I'm looking at selecting peoplefor a team or you know, an

(02:35:28):
expedition or whatever rescue team, itis putting them through an exercise or a
series of exercises where we are spendinga lot of time together. We're challenging
you with difficult situations, not settingup to fail, but things where you're

(02:35:50):
gonna have to work to get theright answer, and when you get the
right answer, we're going to changethe goal posts and see how you react
to that. I think that's reallyinteresting again, coming back to that kind
of human factor, because you know, if I wanted someone to tire knot
and I can teach them what totie k not, that's that's fine.
But being able to tire not whenthere's a time pressure and there's people shouting
screaming at you, that's a bitdifferent. Yea, It's not always like

(02:36:13):
that, don't get me wrong,but those are the times that and it
might be one out of one hundred, but when it comes down to it,
that's what matter. So for me, it's about, yeah, putting
them through a series of realistic exerciseswhere this is what they might be called
to do. How do they copewith this? How do they deal with
people do being difficult? How dothey deal with being rushed? How do

(02:36:37):
they deal with all of these kindof factors. And then within that,
my overarching kind of thought is ifI'm on a call out at two o'clock
in the morning and I'm tired andI'm not performing my best and it's cold
and it's wet, and I liftup the side of the body shelter and
see this person coming towards me,how do I feel. Am I like,

(02:36:58):
oh, get in yeah? Ordo I think, oh, oh
no, like I've got someone elseto manage now, because this person is
you know, when they get stressed, this is something act or whatever.
So that that's the kind of bigthing for me is because you can teach
people skills, people can get fitter, but you can't change fundamentally someone's personality

(02:37:22):
because that's who they are. Andyou know, it's not about fit.
It does your face fit and stuff, but you have to be able to
work in the team, and youhave to be able to work in a
team where there is a bit ofconflict, and I think conflict in teams
is a positive thing to a pointwhere you build trusting each other because you
know you're going to speak your mindsto each other and be honest with each
other. So that's the big thingfor me is once someone has said and

(02:37:46):
done and we've we've kind of lookedat things and put you through your paces,
like how do how do I feelabout working with you? Because if
I'm thinking I'm really gonna have tomanage someone here, like that's that's probably
some and we the other the otherside of that is to be honest about
the feedback as well and say,listen, when we did this, you

(02:38:09):
reacted like this, and what we'relooking for is some you know, and
maybe's exploring that little bit. Sowe did a selection recently where one of
the kind of get kind I wasasking some some questions, not to be
like examining or anything. I wasjust kind of chatting away and and then
with the answers, I was saying, oh, well, why do you
think that? And why did youdo this? And trying to just understand

(02:38:30):
their thinking. And the candidate said, well, that's that's a very good
question, and I was like,I know, tell me, tell me
more. So, Yeah, it'skind of that side of things for me
that I'm more interested in. Ithink you can teach people to do the
skills and to a point, butyeah, that's that's a big thing for
me. Nice. Uh. Thisthis question actually fetal quite nicely, is

(02:38:54):
what advice do you have for assessingpatients in a harsh environment? Both these
before bandages with the environment, Like, the best thing you can do is
control control the environment. So youknow from a work in Special Operations Team
in Scotland, you'd be working ina dangerous area that that ultimately was our

(02:39:18):
job. So you go in,you know you're there because they're in a
difficult position. And I always talkabout s RT stuff like if you're dressed
up in a dry suit with ahelmet and a PFD on in the river,
is not the place you're going todo effective medicine. It's just not
going to happen, and you needto need to rescue that person, get
into a good place and do thegood medicine in a good place. So

(02:39:41):
yeah, both of the people forbandages good medical and good places, and
yeah, be good, be reallyreally hot on your medicine. And when
I say medicine, I don't meandoctors and hospitals. Medicine for me is
a big term from from first aid, you know, first aid day like
first at work, one day,course whatever, that's the stuff they saved

(02:40:01):
lives all the way up to consultantin emergency medicine. Like if those people
don't get the first aid right rightat the start, they don't open the
airway properly, they don't do compressionseffectively, they don't you know, dress
a wound properly. Then paramedics inat eight, ten, fifteen minutes later
are already on the back foot,and then everything else has a knock on,

(02:40:22):
so that it's start kind of reallyfine detail at the at the front
end of things, which matters.So yeah, when I use when I
speak to medicine or whatever term Iuse, I've viewed that very broadly,
right wrong, And that's good.Keeps it simple, like you said,
Yeah, I think that's it cool. This one's a bit cheeky. How

(02:40:43):
many people have you rescued? Howmany people have I rescued? How would
I have liked to think I rescued. A good question that I've never really
kept a log of stuff or diary. In terms of, you know,
working in the NHS, I thinkmy record in one day was twenty patients.

(02:41:07):
You know, that was a reallybusy day in the city center,
you know too, So I don'thave a number. That's why. That's
why lots, Yeah, a few, I would like a few. And
there's there's certainly lots of cases whichstick out and stick out in my mind
for different reasons. Yeah. Yeah, As I said, you get to

(02:41:31):
meet some fantastic people, have somehave some awful, but have some amazing
experiences as well. There's a there'sa follow up question as well, which
is have you carried out any likesurvival stuff so that made a fire,
built a shelter when you've had torescue anyone. I don't not, not
in terms of amount of rescue.I mean shelter of it. We kind

(02:41:52):
of bring shelter with us, aswe spoke to before. In terms of
expedition medt, yes, I wouldsay I've done that. You know,
you can't always evacuate people straight away, so that kind of prolonged casual you
care, you might be ten fora couple of days or making a plan

(02:42:13):
for a few hours, et cetera. So, yeah, survival skills a
fundamental, I suppose, definitely cool. A couple more what's supporting team or
team members do you rely on forlike logistics and mobility? I guess this

(02:42:35):
is more mount to rescue and howdo they help you fulfill your mission?
That's a that's a big question.So there's a big question in terms of
So let's take this from there's acasual on the hill, so we for

(02:42:56):
me to get to a casual onthe hill, I have to have my
stuff prepare, have my time inorder to have my personal life in order.
So family and friends all need tobe on board with that, so
that that's a massive support to meand the team. And then you have
to have the rest of the teamaround you who will have to be well
trained. So everyone who's ever doneany you know, teaching or training for

(02:43:16):
the team, whether that be youknow, professionally providing courses or indeed as
a volunteer member of the team,you know, sharing skills or sharing knowledge,
et cetera. Those guys and themselvesgiving up their time and you know
that part and then all of thestuff that goes on the background. So
looking after the vehicles, I mean, I'm responsible for the medical kits,

(02:43:39):
so I ordered, I count bandagesa lot, very exciting and nobody wants
to talk about that. No,no, no, don't. Yeah.
Yeah, I've got a whole assetteam who look after that and it's yeah
that forever. The amount of peoplewho in that chain or you know part
of that chain is it's mad.Yeah. Yeah. So you know,

(02:44:01):
you know, people give their timeto go and look at the expiry dates
which are always tiny. I thinkthey do it on purpose. And then
you know the hours that goes intothat, and there's you know, there's
that's the medical kit that's one side, and then you've got all of the
tech rescues of that for protection equipmentthat all needs audited in recording the vehicles
and all of the you know we'veall got cars like and all of the

(02:44:24):
admin that goes into that and keepingthem on the road, and the strategic
leadership, the tactical leadership. There'syou know, we've got members who go
to the local resilience forum and siton that and have conversations about you know,
potential events or what's happening, etcetera, you know, weather events
and things, local agencies who trainwith us, the support team of the

(02:44:50):
team who do all the fundraising,anyone who comes a fundraised event. It's
a really good question because it justgrows arms and legs. So yeah,
that you know, there's there's everyonein that team is valuable and important because
they've all got a role to play, whether they are just and I said
that in inverted comments, because there'sno such thing just a you know,

(02:45:13):
operational member and they come and humpand dump and carry stretches and do whatever
you know, search, et cetera. There's no such thing as as kind
of just just supporting. It's ahuge, massive, Uh. We've got
two more to go. So thenext one is do you use the standard

(02:45:37):
UK just a triarche system when you'renot in the UK? Yes? So
the so I'm registered to as aparamedic in the UK, so the standards
I'm held to are those standards.It's an interesting one because if if says

(02:46:03):
to say, as I say,where on ice are, we'll be invited
by that country. And there's alot of again support and admin that goes
into that so we'll our medical directorwill discuss you know, what we do
and how we're licensed in that country, and it gets very very complex.
But for me, I'm indemnified bythe College of Paramedics who are fantastic to

(02:46:26):
work all over the world and toput to work to my school practice and
to my standard. And the standardsin the UK are pretty high and it
so, yeah, you are heldto our standard in terms of triarche and
Jessup. So the triarche tool thatI would use now is the ten second

(02:46:46):
tree Archs tool, which I thinkit got updated this year. Yes,
y yeah, yeah. Having donesome train with that, I think it's
fantastic. I think that it's actuallyit's pragmatic an intelligent because if I'm perfect
honest, that's what we all usedto do anyway, when we were using
the triarch sieve, you would doten second triarchs and kind of malga mate

(02:47:11):
the Trioch schieve within that. Idon't know whether that's just me like anecdotally
looking back and going O, yes, that's what I do, or yeah,
because I'm sure I did it properly. But yeah, I think that's
a really pragmatic tool. The Jessupstuff is obviously UK specific, but I
think that globally the the kind ofprinciples of JESSOP are shared, not under

(02:47:37):
the Jesup kind of auspices. Butyeah, you know nine eleven there was
you know, the nine eleven report, and it's fascinating because you know that
you can read the nine eleven report, you can read the Curse Late report,
the Swannders report from Manchester bombings,and you can see a lot of
the same learning occurring. And Idon't think it's necessarily that we haven't learned

(02:47:58):
lessons and we haven't put things inplace. It's just that again it comes
out of this human performance and thishuman factor that these are stressful experiences and
it's confusing and chaotic. So yeah, I would always practice to my to
the standards that I'm held to theUK. So the hate CPC set that
was out, and I would again, you know, if I was going

(02:48:20):
somewhere with a a team, Ithink that those protocols like which triarche tool
are were going to use are inplace already that you know, when when
the when a car crashesn't isn't thetime to go, right, what kit
we're gonna use? It's that's thinkingbefore we need to think about it.
Definitely, that pre plan awesome.And then the final question on the discord

(02:48:43):
is are there any lessons learned regardingSAR communications? Nice big open question.
Yeah, so communications and having beento a lot of jobs and a lot
of depriefs and as we said before, rescued loads of you ale obviously because
a hero, communications is always alwaysthe thing that gets discussed, and it's

(02:49:11):
usually some somewhere along the line there'sbeen a problem. And again I think
that this comes down so the humanthe human factor is really really important here.
So the I think the stress ofsituations will all have been in the
situations where we can see that somebodythere, whether they're leadership or what is,

(02:49:33):
is stressed out and they need tooffload something. They've got bandwidth or
and I think that's where you can, you know, Hindsights twenty twenty,
you can go and read some stuffand and things. So so in terms

(02:49:54):
of yeah, that that human factor. So the Mike Glaoria was the guy
who think of before his power Rescueor x X power Rescue jump in in
America, he talks about reflex actiondrills. So I think his thing is
to beat the stressful, like hetalks about mister teen saying, right,

(02:50:15):
what you need to do is breathe, walk, relax, and then focus.
So it's about controlling your own communication. So in terms of how you're
sending a message, either verbally orby radio or in an email or whatever,

(02:50:35):
like, you can control that isthe person that you're giving that message
to receiving it and in the wayyou intended it to be received, and
can they interpret in another way.It's an eat hues and leaves thing,
isn't it. And then yeah,in terms of communications radio use, I
think again having a common kind ofprotocol and a language that you use in

(02:51:00):
you know, if you're going touse codes and stuff the things everyone needs
to be on the same page withthat, being familiar with the kit that
you're operating to, whether that's FMradios, airwave radios, et cetera.
You know, things like call signsare important voice procedures. I mean on
the aircraft, we've got about sevenor eight radios to monitor, and then

(02:51:24):
you've got the kind of crew radioin your head as well. There's a
lot kind of going on. Andagain I've learned a lot in the last
year. So where to separate thosethings out and who's talking when and doing
what. It takes a lot ofkind of situational awareness and what they're saying
to that person and what that meansfor us. So yeah, I think

(02:51:46):
that kind of comes for me.It comes on to training. It comes
down to giving people the opportunity andthe experience to utilize communication systems. And
when I say training, it's about, you know, not only this is
how the radio work. It's aboutwhen you say this and if you're stressed,
or you're tired, or your youknow, the car's broken down on

(02:52:09):
the missus as angry at your thehusband's not done something, or the kids
are going ballistic at home, likethose things are going to affect you and
having that self awareness. So that'sa very multifaceted answer to our communications.
But it's it's a massive topic.That's brilliant. Well, thanks so much,

(02:52:31):
Jamie. I guess if anyone elseis listening wants to ask any questions,
they can do that on the DiscordService, So please feel free to
drop those in there, and we'llleave on a thing that we started a
few episodes ago that if you coulddescribe your team in three words. What
would they be? All the teamsthat I'm in, So that's Star at

(02:52:58):
work and not apart Round Racing TeamUK. I saw the local five A
side team, just a bunch oflegends. I think everybody will really hard
and gets a job done, andI think, yeah, I'm always inspired
by the people around me. Definitelyawesome. Well, thank you very much

(02:53:20):
and I really appreciate you coming on. Yes, Luca, thanks having me.
It's it's been good to chat.Why not join the discussion over on
our discord server. You can findout details of how to join in the
show notes see images relating to thisepisode over on our social media accounts.
We're currently on Twitter, Instagram,and Facebook. Thanks for listening to another

(02:53:43):
episode of Sarcast. Don't don't aboutthat gun dot, you don't about at

(02:54:13):
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