February 15, 2023 • 30 mins
- An old episode from the Red to Green Podcast on Food Tech & Bio Tech. Listen if you are interested in the future of food, but this isn’t Scaling Nerds.
Red to Green was a podcast that investigated how to transition the food industry from harmful to healthy, from polluting to sustainable, from Red to Green. Each season had a different topic
- Season: Cultivated Meat
- Season: Plastic Alternatives
- Season: Food History
- Season: Food Waste
- Season: Biotech in Food
- Season: Book Reviews on the future of food
How venture capital shapes the biotech space, the challenges of biotech patents, the hype and bust of plant-based, and what the hell a venture studio does. I enjoyed this a lot and I hope you do too - let's jump right in!
LINKS
Check out our supporter of this season ProVeg Incubator and their 12-month incubator program: https://provegincubator.comÂ
Connect with Marina Schmidt https://www.linkedin.com/in/schmidt-marina
Check out our supporter of this season, FoodLabs, and their Climate Program: https://www.foodlabs.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
For example, if they see that a Precision fermentation Dairy
company has raised 50 million 200 million and you are
potential founder. You think?
Oh, that looks great. Now, I have to build something
in that space. But usually, once these large
rounds have been raised, and it's already too late.
And sometimes people tend to forget that there's obvious
visibility to it, but the other approach would be maybe a few
(00:21):
bottom up through your own research, come up with something
completely different than you at.
This is also what we're discussing quite often
eternally. What is the next big thing in?
A full Tech and what we're looking into.
This is Christian goober. Principal at Food laps food,
Labs is one of the leading European food Tech VCS inventor
Studios. This is a really interesting
(00:42):
conversation on how Venture Capital shapes the biotech
space. We discussed the need and the
challenge of Biotech patterns, the hype and bust of
plant-based. And what the hell aventures
Studio? Does, I enjoyed this a lot and I
hope you do too. Let's Jump Right In.
Red to Green is the most in-depth podcast on food and
(01:03):
agriculture sustainability covering each topic.
No, for 12 episodes. Let's move the food system from
harmful to healthy from polluting to sustainable from
red to Green. I'm your host Marina Schmidt and
you're listening to season 6, biotech and food.
(01:23):
Do you know, stuff about corn, the UK company?
By the way, I threat that they're using this mold fungi,
but it's funny because the company sold, but it still seems
like all startups are pitching apretty much what they have been
doing for 30 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was
exactly what I was also thinkingbut there are some differences
to what they are doing and what the other ones are doing like
they're using different sorts ofstrains and fungi versus buy
(01:45):
cereal makers. But I think that's connected to
a bigger point and the start of cement.
It's a lot of hype, right? I was talking to couple of
companies to do Precision fermentation or biomass
fermentation. And then if you look at the
actual end product it's just a tiny amount of the product that
is made with those Technologies of course because it's also
expensive but they still call themselves a Precision
(02:07):
fermentation company or a biomass company as a start-up.
You don't even have to do that to yourself.
Just you make it vague enough. So the media picks it up and
that way and are calling us a Precision fermentation company.
Yeah, I guess you see that. Across many Industries.
Few years ago it was the same with every startup that was
using some sort of algorithms try to classify themselves as
(02:30):
machine learning or Ai and you have the same thing and maybe in
the food industry, where some companies that maybe use very
simple fermentation technology. Is try to disguise themselves as
like, yeah, we're using biomass fermentation or something
because rightly, so they have understood.
They need to play the game a bitand work with these terms which
might help them, but I think youhave to be aware of it.
(02:52):
But in the end, it's all So I think it's fair to use them.
Yeah, and I'm wondering how muchthat's actually connected to,
how BCS do their due diligence. Because you once told me that I
had food Labs, you also have your Deep dive topics and then
you really go and set out to understand this part of the food
industry. And what does that usually look
(03:12):
like? Was like, biomass fermentation
and precision fermentation once a deep dive topic for you.
Yeah. So it actually has been.
I can't speak for what my colleagues have been doing in
28. In too much but pretty much
there was this impulse to further, look into this.
And then Rafa back then was for example, still an employee at
Food Labs, spend six months, looking into Precision,
(03:34):
fermentation. And then came up with the idea
for more, even though the technology which is now called
Precision. Fermentation has been around for
quite some time in the farmers base.
Back then, there were also already one or two other
companies in the US doing something similar, but it was
the result of speaking with hundreds.
Of experts and looking into journals very closely and then
(03:56):
deciding to build something in that space.
And now, from an investment point of view in theory, this is
the best way to do it that you have a rough understanding of a
certain space where, you know, we want to make an investment.
And then you try to look at all the companies that are out there
for example, that are working with biomass fermentation or
mycelium, and you compare all ofthem and then you take your
(04:17):
notes, you speak with the expertand then at the end, you come to
an investment decision. This is the theoretical Best way
to do it for us as an early stage investor, sometimes it's
not that easy, I think that's a bit easier having that that
approach having that when you invest at the series a stage
where you have already a bit more transparency around the
market and the startups that areout there to some degree, it
(04:38):
also works for us as a very early stage, investor and the
proceed and Seed stage. But sometimes also, we've been
speaking about molecular farming.
Also, the, for example, this is one area that seems still fairly
new. Well, so couple of companies
there. Yeah, but it popped up out of
nowhere. We didn't know proactively that
we wanted to look into that space, But once it came up it
(04:59):
was exciting. And then you also have to react
in that way a bit. So there's always two schools to
do this pretty much that then I would say differ by investment
stage. Hmm here, find it just
interesting that because investors often times go by this
categorical approach, okay? We're doing our due diligence in
this field as a start-up becauseit makes sense to try to get
(05:21):
into one of these categories. Race because as a plant-based
cacao startup or a plant-based honey syrup, you just don't get
the same valuations in the same,kind of credibility and media,
presence, as you would if you lead with the technology.
And that's the irony, is that inthe consumer segment that
actually doesn't matter. Nobody is going to put big and
(05:43):
fat on their honey. This is precision fermentation
honey. Just like they won't put this is
3D printed meet on the front package but I Really found out
in the last couple of years. How different it is to Market to
investors and the food Tech media Community versus marketing
to Consumers. So we had for Mo on red to Green
(06:06):
twice already just to Loop in the listeners in the first
season and cellular agriculture we had them when they just
created the ever first mozzarella which involved no
cow. And that actually was made, I
think with way that they createdin this precision, Approach.
But yeah, like when they did their rebranding, I was doing
(06:26):
the consumer acceptance season and I was thinking this is so
science focused like they talkedabout science as the core part
of their branding and it puzzledme a little bit until I was
like, of course this branding because they're so far from the
actual consumers, this friendingis not for consumers at all.
(06:46):
I mean, you're right. This is the part that that is
not talked about often enough, which is a bit the psychology of
Fundraising and optimizing the company maybe for fundraising
versus building. An actual company even though I
know that for more, they're verymuch building the right company
here. I know it's easy to say that as
an investor, but what I think isa mistake is if startups are
(07:07):
very much reactive in the sense that they look at what has been
funded, what kind of companies, what kind of Technologies and
their try to copy that. And it seems like, in
alternative proteins, they are so many.
It seems like all the technologyalready out there and all Going
a bit too. Enabling technology is, maybe
this is not the next big with tough topics to look into.
(07:28):
We've also met our investments there but ideally potential
Founders would try to not look much into funding and hype, but
rather try to come up with theirown way of doing things.
Because in the end, the reason for why Precision fermentation
is, maybe more hyped than plant-based is also because it's
a bit more defensible. And the other thing to look into
(07:48):
this as. So we've looked for example,
also quite closely into the space of see.
Pathetic Coca-Cola. I know there's mixed opinions
about it but generally speaking,it's fairly harmful for the
environment. But the thing is here, now in
what kind of Technology would you invest or what kind of
product and the difference with comparing that to plant-based
meat? Alternative is that I think with
(08:09):
Coca-Cola because it's such a blue ocean.
Still, there are not many companies working on synthetic
or Alternatives. Here, I would completely agree
with you with just about building the right product that
maybe taste great, and it doesn't matter.
Yet whether it's Precision fermentation or traditional
fermentation because there's notmuch competition yet but if
there is lots of competition, then you need to get some
(08:31):
feeling for what differentiates you.
And the reason why many plan best companies are struggling in
our perception is because there's already lots of
competition and then easy to say, but our product taste
better but it's very hard to justify all quantify this.
That's a bit the dilemma here and why I'd always around us to
ignore a bit the media bus even though of course SMS Stars were
(08:53):
often also quite guilty then andsome sort of herd behavior and
all. Yeah, we used to do X, Y, Zed
right. Now, everybody's doing exercise
that that's can certainly be as.Yeah, and you said that, it's
about making it somehow, defendable IP has been a topic
throughout the season and throughout the entire history of
red to Green is something that'sthat we debate critically.
(09:16):
And one of the issues that seemsto come up on the side of
Pounders and then companies is that a lot of the And research,
and that's especially the case in cell base.
But I guess also in fermentation, a lot of the
ground research needs to be donefor each company individually,
because there is not that much public research out there.
And I've talked to scientists who told me I just cannot do it.
(09:37):
Because how am I supposed to work for this startup
delivering, some kind of scientific take away within a
short period of time. That actually is so basic and so
investigative that you cannot make a Eject timeline for
research. So what would actually help the
space would be way more collaboration between the
(10:00):
startups to say we don't all need to start from scratch.
Again more applicable to sell days but we can pool our
resources because otherwise actually the entire industry
won't get anywhere but one key factor stopping companies from
doing that is oftentimes the investors that of course, went
to keep the IP of the company. Exclusive as much as possible as
(10:24):
the Strategic advantage and like, you can say, well one
investor may have five companieswould be great that they
collaborate with each other, butthe other investors that have a
different kind of portfolio willbe happy about that.
How do you see that? That's that's a difficult
question. You're right.
I would probably also argue thatit would be the wrong approach
sharing, maybe IP or breakthroughs with direct
(10:47):
competitors if its core to the business.
But for example, in the second evasion space, Case.
It's a bit like short-term thinking was long-term thinking,
but I think in the cell cultivation space what might be
interesting is, if you have collaborations with players that
maybe have a bit more of a vertical focus and where it's
complimentary, for example, if you have maybe a company that is
(11:09):
focusing on growth media and it needs to test as growth media
with certain cell lines. So they also need to do some
cell line development and then you have another company that is
working on bioreactors and maybewants to sell some sort of Of
TurnKey solution. We actually have one company
that is doing that in our portfolio and these two
companies are not conflicting, like they're targeting maybe
(11:30):
similar customers, but they willalways be complementary.
And for them, for example, it might make a lot of sense to
join Partnerships and that's something that should be
fostered. And I think investors can help
especially if they invest acrosscertain in the selects based,
for example and have portfolio companies that have this
potential for collaboration. But if it's companies are maybe
(11:51):
at early stages and their This model are complementary because
it's more vertically focused andI think that should be faucet
and that we actually also tryingto do within our portfolio.
We don't have too many companiesand this Alex bass, we have, I
think three companies. But there's the exactly that
combination that we try to Foster but it's a tough problem
and also I would add to that. The other layer is that what's
(12:13):
difficult is translating, IP from University to practice
because quite often, you have very good very reputable
universities that I either want to see some crazy investment or
like, some crazy fee that they want to get for the IPO or like,
they want to get 20% on the company.
And that is the other big thing that is a bottleneck for the
(12:34):
industry. You were mentioning the media
hype that has now quite a down. I guess we went through a
Gartner's hype cycle, alongside the valuations the Gartner hype
cycle methodology, gives you a view of how a technology or an
application. Will evolve over time and it has
(12:54):
these different stages like an innovation trigger, the peak of
inflated expectations then the through of disillusionment
pretty much the valley of disillusionment.
It goes up again, a little bit into the slope of Enlightenment
and to the plateau of productivity, right?
So if you imagine it, it starts out at zero and goes up steeply
(13:18):
to this amazing expectation hypethan it goes.
Own through disillusionment and normalizes somewhere in the
middle and this consulting firm Gartner also estimates where
different Technologies are on the hype Spectrum.
So, as of 2020, and if T is, forexample, are already over the
(13:40):
peak of the expectations and going towards the valley of
disillusionment. And actually, if you look at the
2019 version of the Gartner's hype cycle, it does mention
cultured. Meet at the very bottom biotech
cultured or artificial tissue with more than 10 years.
Go to market in the 2022 addition.
(14:03):
It's not included anymore. I guess a lot of listeners
already know this but maybe we can just do a little bit of by
then historical review of words happen because during covert
actually, the food industry was still going strong, where a lot
of companies found it instead ofbreaking down, there was
(14:25):
actually more and more hype and the necessity and Clarity.
Wow, our food system is in stable, we see how important it
is to have different and varied Supply, chains a lot.
Companies were going through an amazing stage funding.
So why this turn? Yeah, I think there's different
things to this. As you have said, as the very
(14:46):
obvious general, downturn of themarket which is affecting many
Industries, web 3 and crypto, create our economy.
We've seen many industries that were built hype during covid and
then were especially may be relevant with regards to working
from home. That thing I would say, wasn't
necessarily the case for food check except maybe grocery
delivery. Hurry.
(15:07):
Yeah. Through also little review for
sure. The country was still going
through the cyclical downturn, but I think the structure will
tail wind hasn't stopped yet. There's obviously looking at the
impossible, stock price is quitedepressing, for sure.
And I think what you've seen there is that many consumers
were very much open-minded to trying this new food, but maybe
(15:29):
it's not there yet. Maybe it's not perfect.
Yet there can be different reasons to discuss this.
I know it's also somewhat controversial.
Within the food tech industry. But generally speaking, many
plan buyers products are still too heavily processed and not
necessarily as healthy yet as they could be.
And then maybe it's even healthier just eating your plane
(15:51):
veggies, instead of the process veggies and it's my
interpretation of what's Happening.
They are and the companies that are actually working on these
better Solutions. But who haven't launched yet
that remains yet? To be seen.
We're seeing the first launch ofmeaty and Perfect Day in the US.
Yes, I think it's still too early to say that companies like
this have failed because they still haven't launched at scale
(16:12):
yet. And once they have launched at
scale and consumer adoption Still Remains go, I think then
we have a problem but that isn'tthe case yet and I think it
would be a bit too early to say that hype cycle has been
completely down. You need to differentiate a bit
by what kind of stage the different companies eye and then
the other aspect that that you have briefly touched and that's
now, the other thing, where manyfood and active investors are
(16:34):
looking into, as you said, Supply chain crisis to Ukraine
war. Fertilizer prices going up.
It's everything a bit more fundamental talking about soil
health and what's actually happening at the fields and this
is probably also very healthy development.
This is just starting and seems to be one of the next big topics
(16:55):
where we'll see, I think many Investments going into, yeah,
for next year. I hope to be able to make a
vagina too foggy, culture, or sustainable agriculture.
Mmm, that would be great. That still isn't nice because
you have lots of different booksin the area but they are very
specialized performers and to have more of a general who text
(17:17):
perspective on this agriculturalfield could be nice.
So if any of the listeners know any foundations that would be
interested in sponsoring this, please reach out to me very
happy to be connected with organizations that are aligned
and trying to educate people andregenerative agriculture to loop
back to the by Take topic. So in the season we've look
(17:38):
mostly at fermentation. And is there something else in
the biotech realm related to food that you find interesting
apart from biomass precision andmolecular farming currently
molecular farming is as I said is a very interesting topic
because the problem at least with fermentation is that scale
(18:00):
up is quite costly need by erect.
Some, there's a bottleneck for these.
Are you need To retrofit them. So molecular farming remains
interesting because basically you go from plans, you modify
them and then you can grow certain selected proteins.
So I just really want to touch this because I think it's just
such a fascinating technology. If you would like to learn more
(18:22):
about molecular farming, check out our episode 6 .6 and apart
from that we are working very closely into the fertilizer
space. This is a crazy topic.
If you look at the emissions from ammonia and then that's
since there's already quite a few interesting Solutions, pivot
by OSB company and the US Most fertilizers that are used in
(18:45):
agriculture contain three, basicnutrients, nitrogen phosphorus
and potassium. Pivot bio has identified a rare
few microbes that are the best at converting atmospheric
nitrogen into a form that plantscan use.
So these microbes are especiallydesigned to work on cereal crops
(19:07):
which are some of the most nitrogen hungry, crops we grow
due to the war in Ukraine, Wisercosts have been skyrocketing,
but there are also called Globalissues, with fertilizer, runoff,
sand residues, which far exceed our planetary boundaries, if you
want to look into some kind of Biotech solutions for this area,
it's definitely worth it. But for example, there are not
(19:32):
many new Solutions yet for the controlled environmental
agriculture spaces or think Hydroponics, they are, for
example, this is still wide space where these new bio
fertilizer I swear I pretty muchuse microorganisms.
It hasn't been too established yet, so this is interesting
alternative packaging is a spacethat is often and I looked and
(19:52):
super fascinating. We just invested in the company
that can use algae to make pretty much the perfect
replacement for Plastics. While also enhancing the shelf
life, they still need to work a bit on scalability and getting
to price parity, but I think that that seems to power
promising and as we've just touched soil, have regenerated.
Of Agriculture is probably one of the topics that can be easily
(20:15):
overlooked because it's just notthat Chris maybe doesn't fit
into a headline as easily as Precision fermentation, but that
seems to be awesome at a very exciting topic Beyond some of
the stuff that were also lookinginto which is maybe less biotech
or impact driven when it's aboutsome interesting new Concepts
for virtual kitchens or the nextConsumer Brands.
(20:36):
Yeah. And here also we touched upon it
briefly with talking about for Moe.
Actually have an approach of incubating, your own companies.
So you have your own Venture Studio approach.
What does that mean? And how is it different from
just saying, you incubate startups, the background of
(20:57):
fruit Labs has been historically, quite
entrepreneurial, our founding partner, Christophe has been an
entrepreneur himself then has been an angel investor for quite
some time. So there's this DNA within food
labs and also and Landing flaps hours.
Has that fond of really that we all like to work very early
together with found us. This is where there's the most
(21:17):
uncertainty, but where we also have the most fun, because in
the end, it's one of the First Investors.
There's not really much numbers that you invest in, like, maybe
late session versus, but you always investing in people and
maybe exciting Technologies. And it's I think it's always
been a Pity. If you found a fascinating
entrepreneur, you cannot invest because it's too early.
And so this was one of the reasons why in 2016 when Clips
(21:41):
was founded, Started out as a venture studio.
And today, we have destroy approaches, Ventures, 2D and
investment team intervention Studio.
It works pretty much like that you have a team of journalists
from food Labs, who look into certain topics.
This is one way, but the other way is that we are always in
touch with potential entrepreneurs and residents as
we call them, this might be senior employees at the food
(22:03):
tech companies, or delivery companies.
We have disclosed connection, too many people in the
ecosystem, exchange ideas on potential, interesting.
Ation topics. So we can work with the Venture
studio and there's maybe just a co-founding team or single
entrepreneur residence or just an idea.
And then we may be help finding the right team for certain idea.
(22:23):
And then once this is there, it's like a program that can go
from three months up to two years.
Our team of generalists in the studio team.
Helps these Farmers with everything that they need.
And then in addition to that, wealso have a team of operational
experts. So, for example, we have a
fairly large Sophisticated talent and mental development
(22:44):
team, taking care of everything around hiring and recruiting.
And this is really one of the most important levels especially
at the beginning, when building the company, finding the right
hires sounds like a cliche finding the right hires remains
certificate. We have two operating Partners
just taking care of growth marketing and Communications and
PR for our portfolio companies. We have a fairly sophisticated
(23:06):
Finance and Accounting team so we have the entrepreneurs
hopefully with everything that they need.
Around hiring finding warehouse space laboratory space building
the First Financial model, but maybe also the first pitch deck
and then once the company has bit of funding from us, once
they already that they've raisedtheir first external World
Beyond from clubs. This is usually done when they
(23:27):
leave the studio and maybe find their own office.
But having the Venture studio inour offices, also helps us from
the investment anger because yousee the entrepreneurial
struggle. I really like that being rooted
and startup reality where a sitting in the VCI.
Retail. We are sometimes if you're only
looking at pitch Decks that the whole day, I think you can
become cynical at some point because you have to eject so
(23:49):
many startups and then that sounds, it also Keeps Us
grounded. I was talking to a company that
got funded by food labs and she said that actually food labs and
specifically you Christian, you're the only investor he did.
She talks to like the other onesfrom care about is that all
(24:09):
we've questions. I want to know why I have a good
chat and he Start Sports me. I found that was a good sign,
but she also told me about the difficulty of how things changed
in terms of timelines, within the last couple of months that a
couple of months ago, it was like, oh yeah, you gonna go to
market in five years, that sounds reasonable and now
because of the Slowdown of moneyin the market, there's pressure
(24:31):
to go out. And at the same time, going to
Market in an environment. That's very uncertain where
people don't have that much spare cash as they used to.
Part of what drives people to try novel Foods.
So, so sense of adventure, but if life is so shaky and like
things are going so wild, there's no need to have extra
(24:55):
Adventure by buying novel Foods.That's also an aspect doesn't
make it easier. So, what does it make sense?
Like, for as a VC? Are you pushing your startup's
to go to market faster? What do you think is the right
way for for being completely honest?
Here just among the two of us. You can can optimize the bit for
fundraising. Are you optimize for building
(25:17):
building a company and sometimesyou have to tweak it.
A bit that being said with everything that's going on, at
the moment, it is the right impulse to optimize for a fast
go to market than just staying in the lab building, the perfect
product, and not getting customer feedback.
I mean, you have to say, like the moment we're in Q4 2022.
There's so much uncertainty thatit's probably hard to say about
(25:40):
this moment in time. Things need to move, maybe the
Ukraine war will resolve itself,maybe it won't, never not just
facing a recession. But even depression the times of
cheap Capital are certainly over.
I think that seems to be a more substantial thing, and you have
to look at these macroeconomic factors with Rising interest
rates, Capital will be flowing out.
(26:01):
Even though there's lots of dry powder currently available,
which is good. There's lots of dry powder
available, especially to tackle climate related issues, food
Tech is climate-related. Maybe to intersect.
What's tripod or With dry powder.
I mean fans that have been raised but not deployed yet, so
that is potentially colleagues from other Venture Capital
funds. Maybe have just raised to 100
(26:23):
million euro fund, 500 million euro funds.
And I think the number that are first is around 200 billion and
dry powder are still available at the moment and it might just
be that some of this will be returned to a piece but probably
not all of it. Lots of this dry powder will go
to climate related topics. Nevertheless it is I'm getting
to the times of long RDR over and you need to show a bit
(26:45):
traction. We were talking about this
consumer adoption, is you, we need to get closer to the actual
arguments. It's just not about storytelling
anymore, but you need to show a bit that has actual traction to
it. That there's some truth to it
and that this is not just drivenfrom the climate perspective.
Yeah, this is better for the climate.
Everybody understands this at least in the ecosystem, but also
that there is actual time graph,from consumers, they aren't.
(27:08):
This is why, I think it's right at the moment prioritizing
faster, go to Market. So usually the last questions of
the podcast, especially the first one.
Here is unusual for most people to think about for you.
It's not even that unusual if you would have 50 million to
invest in any kinds of solutions.
Where would you put that money? Yeah, so that's a I'm thinking
(27:31):
about this every day, right? 50 millions of flowers, only
drop into my pockets. I think we're currently at the
stage where it's become clear that a bit of the fund.
I am a bit over and we need to address some of the more severe
problems across different Industries and what I'm
personally, at least at the moment puzzled by the solar
(27:52):
energy situation that we are seeing ourselves and in my view,
may be another controversial opinion.
I'm stunned by Germany's stance to moving out of nuclear energy,
and maybe nuclear energy is not the perfect solution.
So, to answer your question, what seems to be very promising,
and that comes from a guy with abusiness background?
I'm not Not a scientist myself. But what seems to be very
(28:14):
promising, this Fusion Energy seems to be very far away but if
it were to work it would be the game changer of the word.
And I think this is an area. If I had a bit more time that I
would love to look into and the other problem I think is this
time bomb this question of demographic change and I think
like it would be scary and 30 4050 years having a society and
(28:38):
Germany where the demographic pyramid is this completely Down.
I would also like to invest in Technologies, they are
retirement homes. I don't know what it is,
probably not robotics, but that seems to be another issue that
we might want to look further into so to serious answers.
Yeah, love also the topic about of looking into Retirement
(29:00):
Solutions, because usually, the people who are the best fit to
work on it and terms of hustle culture are not yet there with
their minds. They're so far away from the
prospect of Of retirement homes and Elderly Care.
And actually, it's also not yet sexy.
I don't know if there's like, some kind of cool Tech term,
adult, Tech or grandson. Heck, I'll take some so shady,
(29:29):
so it needs a little bit of that.
Maybe there's also no Tech solution.
There is the question. Yeah, in our Tech bubble that we
think take will solve the world will solve all issues, which
often Just cultural and societal.
You did mention a couple that like, what is maybe another
controversial Viewpoint that youhave something that a lot of
(29:50):
people in the food Tech scene would disagree with.
I feel like I have already exposed myself too much and have
our fourth nuclear energy and maybe disputing that me just not
completely unhealthy. I would leave it at that.
I think that's the last one. Okay.
Okay, good. Red to Green is and Spotify stop
5%. Most shared And most followed,
(30:13):
thank you so much for being sucha lovely tribe of dedicated
nerds. And if you're looking to post
something on LinkedIn, I can recommend posting about your
favorite episode of the Season or maybe you have three favorite
podcasts to listen to that you would recommend other food.
Tech nerds, shout out to the entire red to Green Team.
(30:36):
You can find their profiles on red to Green Dot Solutions.
Red to Green Dot Solutions, let's move the food industry
from harmful to healthy from polluting to sustainable from
red to Green.
For example, if they see that a Precision fermentation Dairy
company has raised 50 million 200 million and you are
potential founder. You think?
Oh, that looks great. Now, I have to build something
in that space. But usually, once these large
rounds have been raised, and it's already too late.
And sometimes people tend to forget that there's obvious
visibility to it, but the other approach would be maybe a few
(00:21):
bottom up through your own research, come up with something
completely different than you at.
This is also what we're discussing quite often
eternally. What is the next big thing in?
A full Tech and what we're looking into.
This is Christian goober. Principal at Food laps food,
Labs is one of the leading European food Tech VCS inventor
Studios. This is a really interesting
(00:42):
conversation on how Venture Capital shapes the biotech
space. We discussed the need and the
challenge of Biotech patterns, the hype and bust of
plant-based. And what the hell aventures
Studio? Does, I enjoyed this a lot and I
hope you do too. Let's Jump Right In.
Red to Green is the most in-depth podcast on food and
(01:03):
agriculture sustainability covering each topic.
No, for 12 episodes. Let's move the food system from
harmful to healthy from polluting to sustainable from
red to Green. I'm your host Marina Schmidt and
you're listening to season 6, biotech and food.
(01:23):
Do you know, stuff about corn, the UK company?
By the way, I threat that they're using this mold fungi,
but it's funny because the company sold, but it still seems
like all startups are pitching apretty much what they have been
doing for 30 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was
exactly what I was also thinkingbut there are some differences
to what they are doing and what the other ones are doing like
they're using different sorts ofstrains and fungi versus buy
(01:45):
cereal makers. But I think that's connected to
a bigger point and the start of cement.
It's a lot of hype, right? I was talking to couple of
companies to do Precision fermentation or biomass
fermentation. And then if you look at the
actual end product it's just a tiny amount of the product that
is made with those Technologies of course because it's also
expensive but they still call themselves a Precision
(02:07):
fermentation company or a biomass company as a start-up.
You don't even have to do that to yourself.
Just you make it vague enough. So the media picks it up and
that way and are calling us a Precision fermentation company.
Yeah, I guess you see that. Across many Industries.
Few years ago it was the same with every startup that was
using some sort of algorithms try to classify themselves as
(02:30):
machine learning or Ai and you have the same thing and maybe in
the food industry, where some companies that maybe use very
simple fermentation technology. Is try to disguise themselves as
like, yeah, we're using biomass fermentation or something
because rightly, so they have understood.
They need to play the game a bitand work with these terms which
might help them, but I think youhave to be aware of it.
(02:52):
But in the end, it's all So I think it's fair to use them.
Yeah, and I'm wondering how muchthat's actually connected to,
how BCS do their due diligence. Because you once told me that I
had food Labs, you also have your Deep dive topics and then
you really go and set out to understand this part of the food
industry. And what does that usually look
(03:12):
like? Was like, biomass fermentation
and precision fermentation once a deep dive topic for you.
Yeah. So it actually has been.
I can't speak for what my colleagues have been doing in
28. In too much but pretty much
there was this impulse to further, look into this.
And then Rafa back then was for example, still an employee at
Food Labs, spend six months, looking into Precision,
(03:34):
fermentation. And then came up with the idea
for more, even though the technology which is now called
Precision. Fermentation has been around for
quite some time in the farmers base.
Back then, there were also already one or two other
companies in the US doing something similar, but it was
the result of speaking with hundreds.
Of experts and looking into journals very closely and then
(03:56):
deciding to build something in that space.
And now, from an investment point of view in theory, this is
the best way to do it that you have a rough understanding of a
certain space where, you know, we want to make an investment.
And then you try to look at all the companies that are out there
for example, that are working with biomass fermentation or
mycelium, and you compare all ofthem and then you take your
(04:17):
notes, you speak with the expertand then at the end, you come to
an investment decision. This is the theoretical Best way
to do it for us as an early stage investor, sometimes it's
not that easy, I think that's a bit easier having that that
approach having that when you invest at the series a stage
where you have already a bit more transparency around the
market and the startups that areout there to some degree, it
(04:38):
also works for us as a very early stage, investor and the
proceed and Seed stage. But sometimes also, we've been
speaking about molecular farming.
Also, the, for example, this is one area that seems still fairly
new. Well, so couple of companies
there. Yeah, but it popped up out of
nowhere. We didn't know proactively that
we wanted to look into that space, But once it came up it
(04:59):
was exciting. And then you also have to react
in that way a bit. So there's always two schools to
do this pretty much that then I would say differ by investment
stage. Hmm here, find it just
interesting that because investors often times go by this
categorical approach, okay? We're doing our due diligence in
this field as a start-up becauseit makes sense to try to get
(05:21):
into one of these categories. Race because as a plant-based
cacao startup or a plant-based honey syrup, you just don't get
the same valuations in the same,kind of credibility and media,
presence, as you would if you lead with the technology.
And that's the irony, is that inthe consumer segment that
actually doesn't matter. Nobody is going to put big and
(05:43):
fat on their honey. This is precision fermentation
honey. Just like they won't put this is
3D printed meet on the front package but I Really found out
in the last couple of years. How different it is to Market to
investors and the food Tech media Community versus marketing
to Consumers. So we had for Mo on red to Green
(06:06):
twice already just to Loop in the listeners in the first
season and cellular agriculture we had them when they just
created the ever first mozzarella which involved no
cow. And that actually was made, I
think with way that they createdin this precision, Approach.
But yeah, like when they did their rebranding, I was doing
(06:26):
the consumer acceptance season and I was thinking this is so
science focused like they talkedabout science as the core part
of their branding and it puzzledme a little bit until I was
like, of course this branding because they're so far from the
actual consumers, this friendingis not for consumers at all.
(06:46):
I mean, you're right. This is the part that that is
not talked about often enough, which is a bit the psychology of
Fundraising and optimizing the company maybe for fundraising
versus building. An actual company even though I
know that for more, they're verymuch building the right company
here. I know it's easy to say that as
an investor, but what I think isa mistake is if startups are
(07:07):
very much reactive in the sense that they look at what has been
funded, what kind of companies, what kind of Technologies and
their try to copy that. And it seems like, in
alternative proteins, they are so many.
It seems like all the technologyalready out there and all Going
a bit too. Enabling technology is, maybe
this is not the next big with tough topics to look into.
(07:28):
We've also met our investments there but ideally potential
Founders would try to not look much into funding and hype, but
rather try to come up with theirown way of doing things.
Because in the end, the reason for why Precision fermentation
is, maybe more hyped than plant-based is also because it's
a bit more defensible. And the other thing to look into
(07:48):
this as. So we've looked for example,
also quite closely into the space of see.
Pathetic Coca-Cola. I know there's mixed opinions
about it but generally speaking,it's fairly harmful for the
environment. But the thing is here, now in
what kind of Technology would you invest or what kind of
product and the difference with comparing that to plant-based
meat? Alternative is that I think with
(08:09):
Coca-Cola because it's such a blue ocean.
Still, there are not many companies working on synthetic
or Alternatives. Here, I would completely agree
with you with just about building the right product that
maybe taste great, and it doesn't matter.
Yet whether it's Precision fermentation or traditional
fermentation because there's notmuch competition yet but if
there is lots of competition, then you need to get some
(08:31):
feeling for what differentiates you.
And the reason why many plan best companies are struggling in
our perception is because there's already lots of
competition and then easy to say, but our product taste
better but it's very hard to justify all quantify this.
That's a bit the dilemma here and why I'd always around us to
ignore a bit the media bus even though of course SMS Stars were
(08:53):
often also quite guilty then andsome sort of herd behavior and
all. Yeah, we used to do X, Y, Zed
right. Now, everybody's doing exercise
that that's can certainly be as.Yeah, and you said that, it's
about making it somehow, defendable IP has been a topic
throughout the season and throughout the entire history of
red to Green is something that'sthat we debate critically.
(09:16):
And one of the issues that seemsto come up on the side of
Pounders and then companies is that a lot of the And research,
and that's especially the case in cell base.
But I guess also in fermentation, a lot of the
ground research needs to be donefor each company individually,
because there is not that much public research out there.
And I've talked to scientists who told me I just cannot do it.
(09:37):
Because how am I supposed to work for this startup
delivering, some kind of scientific take away within a
short period of time. That actually is so basic and so
investigative that you cannot make a Eject timeline for
research. So what would actually help the
space would be way more collaboration between the
(10:00):
startups to say we don't all need to start from scratch.
Again more applicable to sell days but we can pool our
resources because otherwise actually the entire industry
won't get anywhere but one key factor stopping companies from
doing that is oftentimes the investors that of course, went
to keep the IP of the company. Exclusive as much as possible as
(10:24):
the Strategic advantage and like, you can say, well one
investor may have five companieswould be great that they
collaborate with each other, butthe other investors that have a
different kind of portfolio willbe happy about that.
How do you see that? That's that's a difficult
question. You're right.
I would probably also argue thatit would be the wrong approach
sharing, maybe IP or breakthroughs with direct
(10:47):
competitors if its core to the business.
But for example, in the second evasion space, Case.
It's a bit like short-term thinking was long-term thinking,
but I think in the cell cultivation space what might be
interesting is, if you have collaborations with players that
maybe have a bit more of a vertical focus and where it's
complimentary, for example, if you have maybe a company that is
(11:09):
focusing on growth media and it needs to test as growth media
with certain cell lines. So they also need to do some
cell line development and then you have another company that is
working on bioreactors and maybewants to sell some sort of Of
TurnKey solution. We actually have one company
that is doing that in our portfolio and these two
companies are not conflicting, like they're targeting maybe
(11:30):
similar customers, but they willalways be complementary.
And for them, for example, it might make a lot of sense to
join Partnerships and that's something that should be
fostered. And I think investors can help
especially if they invest acrosscertain in the selects based,
for example and have portfolio companies that have this
potential for collaboration. But if it's companies are maybe
(11:51):
at early stages and their This model are complementary because
it's more vertically focused andI think that should be faucet
and that we actually also tryingto do within our portfolio.
We don't have too many companiesand this Alex bass, we have, I
think three companies. But there's the exactly that
combination that we try to Foster but it's a tough problem
and also I would add to that. The other layer is that what's
(12:13):
difficult is translating, IP from University to practice
because quite often, you have very good very reputable
universities that I either want to see some crazy investment or
like, some crazy fee that they want to get for the IPO or like,
they want to get 20% on the company.
And that is the other big thing that is a bottleneck for the
(12:34):
industry. You were mentioning the media
hype that has now quite a down. I guess we went through a
Gartner's hype cycle, alongside the valuations the Gartner hype
cycle methodology, gives you a view of how a technology or an
application. Will evolve over time and it has
(12:54):
these different stages like an innovation trigger, the peak of
inflated expectations then the through of disillusionment
pretty much the valley of disillusionment.
It goes up again, a little bit into the slope of Enlightenment
and to the plateau of productivity, right?
So if you imagine it, it starts out at zero and goes up steeply
(13:18):
to this amazing expectation hypethan it goes.
Own through disillusionment and normalizes somewhere in the
middle and this consulting firm Gartner also estimates where
different Technologies are on the hype Spectrum.
So, as of 2020, and if T is, forexample, are already over the
(13:40):
peak of the expectations and going towards the valley of
disillusionment. And actually, if you look at the
2019 version of the Gartner's hype cycle, it does mention
cultured. Meet at the very bottom biotech
cultured or artificial tissue with more than 10 years.
Go to market in the 2022 addition.
(14:03):
It's not included anymore. I guess a lot of listeners
already know this but maybe we can just do a little bit of by
then historical review of words happen because during covert
actually, the food industry was still going strong, where a lot
of companies found it instead ofbreaking down, there was
(14:25):
actually more and more hype and the necessity and Clarity.
Wow, our food system is in stable, we see how important it
is to have different and varied Supply, chains a lot.
Companies were going through an amazing stage funding.
So why this turn? Yeah, I think there's different
things to this. As you have said, as the very
(14:46):
obvious general, downturn of themarket which is affecting many
Industries, web 3 and crypto, create our economy.
We've seen many industries that were built hype during covid and
then were especially may be relevant with regards to working
from home. That thing I would say, wasn't
necessarily the case for food check except maybe grocery
delivery. Hurry.
(15:07):
Yeah. Through also little review for
sure. The country was still going
through the cyclical downturn, but I think the structure will
tail wind hasn't stopped yet. There's obviously looking at the
impossible, stock price is quitedepressing, for sure.
And I think what you've seen there is that many consumers
were very much open-minded to trying this new food, but maybe
(15:29):
it's not there yet. Maybe it's not perfect.
Yet there can be different reasons to discuss this.
I know it's also somewhat controversial.
Within the food tech industry. But generally speaking, many
plan buyers products are still too heavily processed and not
necessarily as healthy yet as they could be.
And then maybe it's even healthier just eating your plane
(15:51):
veggies, instead of the process veggies and it's my
interpretation of what's Happening.
They are and the companies that are actually working on these
better Solutions. But who haven't launched yet
that remains yet? To be seen.
We're seeing the first launch ofmeaty and Perfect Day in the US.
Yes, I think it's still too early to say that companies like
this have failed because they still haven't launched at scale
(16:12):
yet. And once they have launched at
scale and consumer adoption Still Remains go, I think then
we have a problem but that isn'tthe case yet and I think it
would be a bit too early to say that hype cycle has been
completely down. You need to differentiate a bit
by what kind of stage the different companies eye and then
the other aspect that that you have briefly touched and that's
now, the other thing, where manyfood and active investors are
(16:34):
looking into, as you said, Supply chain crisis to Ukraine
war. Fertilizer prices going up.
It's everything a bit more fundamental talking about soil
health and what's actually happening at the fields and this
is probably also very healthy development.
This is just starting and seems to be one of the next big topics
(16:55):
where we'll see, I think many Investments going into, yeah,
for next year. I hope to be able to make a
vagina too foggy, culture, or sustainable agriculture.
Mmm, that would be great. That still isn't nice because
you have lots of different booksin the area but they are very
specialized performers and to have more of a general who text
(17:17):
perspective on this agriculturalfield could be nice.
So if any of the listeners know any foundations that would be
interested in sponsoring this, please reach out to me very
happy to be connected with organizations that are aligned
and trying to educate people andregenerative agriculture to loop
back to the by Take topic. So in the season we've look
(17:38):
mostly at fermentation. And is there something else in
the biotech realm related to food that you find interesting
apart from biomass precision andmolecular farming currently
molecular farming is as I said is a very interesting topic
because the problem at least with fermentation is that scale
(18:00):
up is quite costly need by erect.
Some, there's a bottleneck for these.
Are you need To retrofit them. So molecular farming remains
interesting because basically you go from plans, you modify
them and then you can grow certain selected proteins.
So I just really want to touch this because I think it's just
such a fascinating technology. If you would like to learn more
(18:22):
about molecular farming, check out our episode 6 .6 and apart
from that we are working very closely into the fertilizer
space. This is a crazy topic.
If you look at the emissions from ammonia and then that's
since there's already quite a few interesting Solutions, pivot
by OSB company and the US Most fertilizers that are used in
(18:45):
agriculture contain three, basicnutrients, nitrogen phosphorus
and potassium. Pivot bio has identified a rare
few microbes that are the best at converting atmospheric
nitrogen into a form that plantscan use.
So these microbes are especiallydesigned to work on cereal crops
(19:07):
which are some of the most nitrogen hungry, crops we grow
due to the war in Ukraine, Wisercosts have been skyrocketing,
but there are also called Globalissues, with fertilizer, runoff,
sand residues, which far exceed our planetary boundaries, if you
want to look into some kind of Biotech solutions for this area,
it's definitely worth it. But for example, there are not
(19:32):
many new Solutions yet for the controlled environmental
agriculture spaces or think Hydroponics, they are, for
example, this is still wide space where these new bio
fertilizer I swear I pretty muchuse microorganisms.
It hasn't been too established yet, so this is interesting
alternative packaging is a spacethat is often and I looked and
(19:52):
super fascinating. We just invested in the company
that can use algae to make pretty much the perfect
replacement for Plastics. While also enhancing the shelf
life, they still need to work a bit on scalability and getting
to price parity, but I think that that seems to power
promising and as we've just touched soil, have regenerated.
Of Agriculture is probably one of the topics that can be easily
(20:15):
overlooked because it's just notthat Chris maybe doesn't fit
into a headline as easily as Precision fermentation, but that
seems to be awesome at a very exciting topic Beyond some of
the stuff that were also lookinginto which is maybe less biotech
or impact driven when it's aboutsome interesting new Concepts
for virtual kitchens or the nextConsumer Brands.
(20:36):
Yeah. And here also we touched upon it
briefly with talking about for Moe.
Actually have an approach of incubating, your own companies.
So you have your own Venture Studio approach.
What does that mean? And how is it different from
just saying, you incubate startups, the background of
(20:57):
fruit Labs has been historically, quite
entrepreneurial, our founding partner, Christophe has been an
entrepreneur himself then has been an angel investor for quite
some time. So there's this DNA within food
labs and also and Landing flaps hours.
Has that fond of really that we all like to work very early
together with found us. This is where there's the most
(21:17):
uncertainty, but where we also have the most fun, because in
the end, it's one of the First Investors.
There's not really much numbers that you invest in, like, maybe
late session versus, but you always investing in people and
maybe exciting Technologies. And it's I think it's always
been a Pity. If you found a fascinating
entrepreneur, you cannot invest because it's too early.
And so this was one of the reasons why in 2016 when Clips
(21:41):
was founded, Started out as a venture studio.
And today, we have destroy approaches, Ventures, 2D and
investment team intervention Studio.
It works pretty much like that you have a team of journalists
from food Labs, who look into certain topics.
This is one way, but the other way is that we are always in
touch with potential entrepreneurs and residents as
we call them, this might be senior employees at the food
(22:03):
tech companies, or delivery companies.
We have disclosed connection, too many people in the
ecosystem, exchange ideas on potential, interesting.
Ation topics. So we can work with the Venture
studio and there's maybe just a co-founding team or single
entrepreneur residence or just an idea.
And then we may be help finding the right team for certain idea.
(22:23):
And then once this is there, it's like a program that can go
from three months up to two years.
Our team of generalists in the studio team.
Helps these Farmers with everything that they need.
And then in addition to that, wealso have a team of operational
experts. So, for example, we have a
fairly large Sophisticated talent and mental development
(22:44):
team, taking care of everything around hiring and recruiting.
And this is really one of the most important levels especially
at the beginning, when building the company, finding the right
hires sounds like a cliche finding the right hires remains
certificate. We have two operating Partners
just taking care of growth marketing and Communications and
PR for our portfolio companies. We have a fairly sophisticated
(23:06):
Finance and Accounting team so we have the entrepreneurs
hopefully with everything that they need.
Around hiring finding warehouse space laboratory space building
the First Financial model, but maybe also the first pitch deck
and then once the company has bit of funding from us, once
they already that they've raisedtheir first external World
Beyond from clubs. This is usually done when they
(23:27):
leave the studio and maybe find their own office.
But having the Venture studio inour offices, also helps us from
the investment anger because yousee the entrepreneurial
struggle. I really like that being rooted
and startup reality where a sitting in the VCI.
Retail. We are sometimes if you're only
looking at pitch Decks that the whole day, I think you can
become cynical at some point because you have to eject so
(23:49):
many startups and then that sounds, it also Keeps Us
grounded. I was talking to a company that
got funded by food labs and she said that actually food labs and
specifically you Christian, you're the only investor he did.
She talks to like the other onesfrom care about is that all
(24:09):
we've questions. I want to know why I have a good
chat and he Start Sports me. I found that was a good sign,
but she also told me about the difficulty of how things changed
in terms of timelines, within the last couple of months that a
couple of months ago, it was like, oh yeah, you gonna go to
market in five years, that sounds reasonable and now
because of the Slowdown of moneyin the market, there's pressure
(24:31):
to go out. And at the same time, going to
Market in an environment. That's very uncertain where
people don't have that much spare cash as they used to.
Part of what drives people to try novel Foods.
So, so sense of adventure, but if life is so shaky and like
things are going so wild, there's no need to have extra
(24:55):
Adventure by buying novel Foods.That's also an aspect doesn't
make it easier. So, what does it make sense?
Like, for as a VC? Are you pushing your startup's
to go to market faster? What do you think is the right
way for for being completely honest?
Here just among the two of us. You can can optimize the bit for
fundraising. Are you optimize for building
(25:17):
building a company and sometimesyou have to tweak it.
A bit that being said with everything that's going on, at
the moment, it is the right impulse to optimize for a fast
go to market than just staying in the lab building, the perfect
product, and not getting customer feedback.
I mean, you have to say, like the moment we're in Q4 2022.
There's so much uncertainty thatit's probably hard to say about
(25:40):
this moment in time. Things need to move, maybe the
Ukraine war will resolve itself,maybe it won't, never not just
facing a recession. But even depression the times of
cheap Capital are certainly over.
I think that seems to be a more substantial thing, and you have
to look at these macroeconomic factors with Rising interest
rates, Capital will be flowing out.
(26:01):
Even though there's lots of dry powder currently available,
which is good. There's lots of dry powder
available, especially to tackle climate related issues, food
Tech is climate-related. Maybe to intersect.
What's tripod or With dry powder.
I mean fans that have been raised but not deployed yet, so
that is potentially colleagues from other Venture Capital
funds. Maybe have just raised to 100
(26:23):
million euro fund, 500 million euro funds.
And I think the number that are first is around 200 billion and
dry powder are still available at the moment and it might just
be that some of this will be returned to a piece but probably
not all of it. Lots of this dry powder will go
to climate related topics. Nevertheless it is I'm getting
to the times of long RDR over and you need to show a bit
(26:45):
traction. We were talking about this
consumer adoption, is you, we need to get closer to the actual
arguments. It's just not about storytelling
anymore, but you need to show a bit that has actual traction to
it. That there's some truth to it
and that this is not just drivenfrom the climate perspective.
Yeah, this is better for the climate.
Everybody understands this at least in the ecosystem, but also
that there is actual time graph,from consumers, they aren't.
(27:08):
This is why, I think it's right at the moment prioritizing
faster, go to Market. So usually the last questions of
the podcast, especially the first one.
Here is unusual for most people to think about for you.
It's not even that unusual if you would have 50 million to
invest in any kinds of solutions.
Where would you put that money? Yeah, so that's a I'm thinking
(27:31):
about this every day, right? 50 millions of flowers, only
drop into my pockets. I think we're currently at the
stage where it's become clear that a bit of the fund.
I am a bit over and we need to address some of the more severe
problems across different Industries and what I'm
personally, at least at the moment puzzled by the solar
(27:52):
energy situation that we are seeing ourselves and in my view,
may be another controversial opinion.
I'm stunned by Germany's stance to moving out of nuclear energy,
and maybe nuclear energy is not the perfect solution.
So, to answer your question, what seems to be very promising,
and that comes from a guy with abusiness background?
I'm not Not a scientist myself. But what seems to be very
(28:14):
promising, this Fusion Energy seems to be very far away but if
it were to work it would be the game changer of the word.
And I think this is an area. If I had a bit more time that I
would love to look into and the other problem I think is this
time bomb this question of demographic change and I think
like it would be scary and 30 4050 years having a society and
(28:38):
Germany where the demographic pyramid is this completely Down.
I would also like to invest in Technologies, they are
retirement homes. I don't know what it is,
probably not robotics, but that seems to be another issue that
we might want to look further into so to serious answers.
Yeah, love also the topic about of looking into Retirement
(29:00):
Solutions, because usually, the people who are the best fit to
work on it and terms of hustle culture are not yet there with
their minds. They're so far away from the
prospect of Of retirement homes and Elderly Care.
And actually, it's also not yet sexy.
I don't know if there's like, some kind of cool Tech term,
adult, Tech or grandson. Heck, I'll take some so shady,
(29:29):
so it needs a little bit of that.
Maybe there's also no Tech solution.
There is the question. Yeah, in our Tech bubble that we
think take will solve the world will solve all issues, which
often Just cultural and societal.
You did mention a couple that like, what is maybe another
controversial Viewpoint that youhave something that a lot of
(29:50):
people in the food Tech scene would disagree with.
I feel like I have already exposed myself too much and have
our fourth nuclear energy and maybe disputing that me just not
completely unhealthy. I would leave it at that.
I think that's the last one. Okay.
Okay, good. Red to Green is and Spotify stop
5%. Most shared And most followed,
(30:13):
thank you so much for being sucha lovely tribe of dedicated
nerds. And if you're looking to post
something on LinkedIn, I can recommend posting about your
favorite episode of the Season or maybe you have three favorite
podcasts to listen to that you would recommend other food.
Tech nerds, shout out to the entire red to Green Team.
(30:36):
You can find their profiles on red to Green Dot Solutions.
Red to Green Dot Solutions, let's move the food industry
from harmful to healthy from polluting to sustainable from
red to Green.
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