(Old/R2G) 7. SEASON FINAL - BOOK TALKS - What Food Futurist are you? 🔮 Part II of Meals to Come - Scaling Nerds | Communications, PR and Storytelling for Startup Founders (prev. Red To Green)

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Let's finish discussing the fantastic book Meals to Come,
The History of the Future of Food by Warren Belasco.
If you haven't listened to the previous episode, the first part
of the discussion, don't worry, I will summarize the key points
for you. In this episode, you will hear
about how modern solutions of Cornucopians, Malthusians, and
Egalitarians look like. Why it can be useful to add an

(00:24):
ecological perspective and a tapestry of some of my favorite
quotes from the book discussing how belief systems and rhetoric
have shaped the future of food predictions.
Super, super interesting. I'm joined by my lovely cohost
Frank Alexander Cunnet, the chief of the Advisory Board of
the Herb and spice producer wraps, and the managing

(00:45):
director. Of the Adelbert Raps Foundation
funding research on sustainable food science.
More on that later. Let's jump right in.
Red to Green is the most in depth podcast on food
sustainability, and in this season seven we discussed key
takeaways from books on the foodsystem.

(01:05):
I'm your host, Marina Schmidt, and I'm joined by my cohost,
Frank Kuner. Let's start with a quick summary
of the last episode describing the three types of food
futurists. So Warren Belasco argued that if
you look at future food predictions for the entirety of

(01:25):
the 20th century, you will find these archetypes first.
The Cornucopians believe innovation will fix anything and
throw tech at any problem. We need to be better, faster,
and stronger using new approaches.
The main theme is to innovate. Malthusians generally believe
that our main issue is that we are too many people.

(01:48):
And as I will describe in a second, I think modern
Malthusians would rather focus on reducing our consumption,
respecting the Earth's limits, and finding ways to reduce,
reuse and recycle. The main theme here is to say
the third camp. The Egalitarians believe we
would have enough if we would share it better.
Environmental issues are a reflection of social inequality.

(02:13):
Local and small is beautiful. The main theme here is to share,
and as we will get to in a few minutes, the 4th category, which
I would add to it, would be the ecologists.
Ecologists believe we must live in line with nature again.
Get off the chemical agricultural treadmill and think
in ecosystems. The main theme here is to

(02:35):
restore and regenerate. Ultimately, especially nowadays,
most people are not in either orcategory because our
understanding of the food systemhas developed.
It just helps to be aware of one's default view and recognize
which other perspectives may be good to take a look at.

(02:59):
Yeah. What is your mindset?
What's the basic mindset in regard of food, Marina?
I think I was very cornucopian for a while, especially when I
started with season one on cellular agriculture, and I mean
cornucopia. And that's.
Cellular agriculture, that's ourlast season in biotech and food,
that's all. We will fix it with technology.

(03:21):
I would say I'm all of the three, the least of which
Malthusian, if you look at the modern incarnation of these, I
would say Malthusians. We also talk about if we cannot
limit population growth, we needto limit our individual
consumption. And that's not something that I
read in the book, but something that I would extrapolate just to
clarify that Malthusians in their modern form are more

(03:45):
connected to our food waste season, which was season four.
I do think reducing individual consumption does have a role to
play, saving lost resources, improving efficiency in that
way, seeing where can we cut. Waste plastics.
So how can you streamline the system?
Zero Waste is more on the consumer side of things.

(04:08):
Recycling up, cycling. Also it's like a Malthusian
thing for me and how I would interpret like new Malthusianism
and the egalitarians. Actually in the modern version I
think still sort of stayed the same, like it's the NGO's and
the activists and global development if we think about
the. Books that we read Stuffed and

(04:29):
starved was a very egalitarian book and I would add a fourth
one on top 1/4 archetype, which would be the ecologist if the
egalitarian thinks about the human and social system.
Distribution. The ecologists thinks about that
based on Okay. We have a farm ecosystem.

(04:50):
We need to be in a just relationwith nature.
We need to make sure that we don't just take the microbes and
we take the resources that Earthhas.
We need to feed the soil. We need to think in systems, not
just in human systems but then also in microbial systems.
And that is to me 1/4 belief system that again he doesn't

(05:11):
mention, but I would add to it. And with these four, I think one
can have a very balanced viewpoint on the food industry.
Yeah, I agree. I agree.
So you have the society as the amount of people in it and
regulating them. You have the technology driving
like future forward issues. You have the distribution system

(05:33):
and you have the ecosystem in which the food system actually
is rooted and you need to protect that.
Yeah, yeah. Are you on the lookout for
grants? Or do you know somebody who
could use a grant for research on food science and
sustainability of our food system?
Then you really got to listen tothis one.
The Adelbert Wraps Foundation, which is headed by Frank, offers

(05:55):
grants on pretty much everythingthat we cover in this podcast.
So they've supported projects inall proteins connected to spices
and herbs, soil, etc. They are open for all sorts of
topics. Focused on the sustainability of
the food system, they can only fund researchers or academic

(06:16):
institutions, but also as a startup you can work with them.
For example, Cultivated Biosciences dairy free startup
already did, as well as perfect working on egg alternatives and
Bosque food working on biomass fermentation using fungi.
The Attleboro Raps Foundation isbased in the South of Germany,
but you can apply if you're outside of Germany or even

(06:37):
outside of Europe. And I recently received this
question. But no, they do not take any
equity. They're funding the academic
institution and you get the benefit of having potentially
the intellectual property or theresearch and reputation without
having to pay for it yourself. You can also just be a single
researcher and apply for a grant.
Check out the Adelbert Raps Foundation by following the link

(07:02):
in the comments. You could also reach out to
Frank Alexander Kuna himself. By finding him on LinkedIn.
Back to the episode. Yeah, and the last one, the
ecologists in their modern view,like in the modern incarnation,
if you look on LinkedIn, they are a lot of the farmers that

(07:22):
are on LinkedIn. And I was always wondering if
you have regenerative agriculture people and food tech
people commenting under one post, like the likelihood that
it would just explode. It's very high and I was
wondering why. And it's because their
fundamental belief systems are so far apart and quite a lot of

(07:45):
the people in the cornucopia andfood tech field, you can argue
there are people who make claimswhich are just outrageous, like,
oh, we're going to eradicate thelast factory form on Earth,
having that on an office wall. And at the same time, ecologists
who say to the extreme, we don'tneed less cows, we need more
cows. And that's a bit just like, I

(08:06):
mean, I think we have enough cars.
It's okay you can use the cars that are there to do your
rotational grazing. Don't misuse that.
But yeah, the corners of these are not necessarily the wisest,
but each of them has some wisdomand use.
Yeah, the sun is shining so muchon you, You look enlightened.

(08:26):
You know, it's like it's like glittering in your glasses.
I've listened to Red to green, but your 5th thesis.
I don't want to make it small, but it's the general idea that
kind of the engine you have in your head is influencing what
you act on so. Sort of food system specific

(08:51):
thing, or this kind of isotype as you call them.
It's very general. There is much more nuance to it,
and I would structure it into two parts.
One of them is how these different belief systems
affected each other. So for the first point, Warren
Belasco describes this fascinating dynamic.

(09:12):
Malthusians would predict greater hunger.
And in response, Cornucopians would take action to increase
food production, challenging theMalthusians perspective and
making it invalid. Therefore, Meanwhile, the
egalitarians, though they were not always equally represented
during the Red Scare, voiced their concerns about this

(09:34):
growing surplus of food and an economic and political system
that enriched the wealthy with cheap meat.
While depriving the poor of basic grains and degraded soil.
And this kind of going in circles would go on for decades
and decades and decades. Which is why Warren Belasco
points out that if you look at the historical debates, they

(09:57):
sound repetitive because they are repetitive.
And regarding the second part ofthe argument, I will read to you
a couple of my favorite quotes from Warren Belasco, so you can
also again have a bit of a. Sneak peek into his exact way of
writing and framing these topicsstarting from position 735 in

(10:21):
the e-book. So here he talks about how the
different archetypes, the different food futurists just
cherry picked their way of interpreting history and
information. Behind the statistics lurk
subjective, often moralistic assumptions about diet.
Human adaptability and creativity.

(10:42):
The nature of the good life and political change.
Even the most interdisciplinary think tankers rarely ventured
much beyond their own values, paradigms, and experiences.
Even with identical time frames,judgments can vary based on what
is being counted. In the late 20th century,

(11:03):
Cornucopians celebrated the continued decline of grain
prices. While Methusians worried about a
simultaneous spike in seafood prices, another lesson is that
for making prediction, it is best to brush up one's classical
metaphors, myths, and allusions.Command of archetypes is in fact

(11:23):
an essential prerequisite for framing news stories, capturing
the public imagination, and setting the policy agenda.
Futurists have cannibalized, rearranged, and repackaged the
past. To support virtually any point,
and thanks to the historical amnesia and scientific
illiteracy of the audience, few have recognized the

(11:45):
repetitiveness. If you're going to make
predictions, you might as well be bold and confident about
them. Whatever their position, the
futurists who have received the greatest attention have been the
ones with the loudest, most urgent, and certain scenarios,
even if they have turned out to be wrong.
Today, everyone claims to be an environmentalist, including the

(12:06):
Rockefeller Foundation's president who cast genetic
engineering as the Double Green Revolution, and Monsanto, whose
public relations department pitches biotechnology as a
sustainable and fair way to feedthe hungry world.
But fallacies aside, the 5th lesson is that long run
accuracy. Has not always been a major

(12:27):
consideration anyway. For the most part, futurists
have not really been discussing the future so much as they have
been projecting contemporary events, worries, and hopes onto
the future. Yeah, the way that Warren
Belasco describes it though, is he really points out that you

(12:48):
can have the same piece of data,you can have the same chart.
And it's and you look. Differently.
More deeply like interpreted in different ways.
And these used to be very separate belief systems.
There were clearly futurists whowere Malthusians, and there were
clearly ones which were egalitarians.
And now it has all become more muddled, like on the startup

(13:08):
webpage you can see all three. Oh, we have to feed 10 billion
people by 2050. That's a Malthusian worry,
right? We want to bring back forests
and agricultural land. That's an egalitarian ecological
view. And we are doing that by
promoting precision fermentationto replace animal cheese and

(13:31):
animal and or tissue engineeringto replace animal meat.
That's cornucopian. I have a 6th thesis and maybe
you want to. No, should I?
So I have a very challenging thesis from Marina here to state
and you can actually repeat thatafter me if you don't feel
comfortable me saying that the food tech industry could benefit

(13:55):
from a more. Now I know why you asked me to
read that egalitarian, egalitarian, the food tech
industry could benefit from a more egalitarian.
I can't pronounce that and ecosystem approach.
There's a lot you can actually re edit that please and cut the
right word in. Here's one of Marina's son
pieces. There's a lot to learn from

(14:17):
farmers who work with the ecosystem.
I think you actually you should repeat the thesis please Marina,
read it. Why you're so trickered for it?
Don't want your I don't want your voice associated with it.
No, I'm gonna oppose that. Yeah, There's This is.

(14:41):
OK, but so I can maybe elaborateon it.
So I do think that our food system is vastly intensely
cornucopian. And if you add a bit more of an
egalitarian approach, that does mean more fair trade breaking up
monopolies. Because the irony is like if you

(15:03):
are a cornucopian believing in the liberal market, then this is
not existent. This is not a liberal market
because it's based on competition.
If you have four companies in the agricultural space who have
the majority, that's not competition.
Like is the fever getting to you.
You're like. A little bit drowsy, yeah.

(15:24):
No, no, no. I'm not drowsy.
I'm really trying to grasp your idea.
The reason why the thesis touched me is because, like,
there are two levels from me in that kind of thesis.
And perhaps it's because you introduced the different
archetypes, which is the egotarian, egotarian, Jesus.
Just. Call the Eagles.

(15:46):
The hippie, the hippie archetypeand the ecosystem archetype,
it's called That Way. God.
Well, I totally agree with you in the whole hippie system,
being that we're not. Can we have now a photo of

(16:07):
Marina? How she's going to throw herself
out of the window? Be struggling with these words?
Jesus. So good, I could do this the
whole day. How painful this is for me,
thank you. I see two different levels here.
The egalitarian approach. I agree with you what we have
seen over the last of the whole season that I've shared with you

(16:32):
or was being part of. Our food system clearly is
disbalanced. It's not a balanced food system
at that point and it needs to bemore balanced to be that kind of
a functional market system. So regarding your thesis, yes,
yeah, we need a more ecologic and more balanced food system.

(16:52):
Okay. So what's your resume of the
book? Fantastic.
Unfortunately you can't see the book, but you have to look at
the cover. I never actually would have
bought that book because of its cover.
Yeah, it has a picture of the typical American TV dinner on it
as a kind of copy. And this is backwards oriented

(17:12):
and not forward oriented, but it's a book to read.
It's a book which roots you being part of the food system in
a way in your history and understand.
When things already have been discussed or innovated or found,
so very handy, book clearly something to read, even if the
cover is not very attractive. How about you, Marina?

(17:35):
I would say it's as we call it in Germany.
It's quite a schinken clopper translated like massive piece of
harm. So it's.
Huge. It's quite a mouthful.
I think it takes like 12 hours to read it.
According to my Kindle, it's about twice as long as a normal

(17:57):
book would be. There are also parts which are
very, very long and very detailed, like even just the way
that he describes how fiction has represented food probably
goes on for like 50 pages or something.
It's very indepth I think. In general.
I didn't need anybody to really sell me on that, but.

(18:19):
It just reminded me again how much I appreciate the history.
You know where you come from to know where you can go.
Something. Exactly.
So, yeah, everybody. History is always a good
teacher. Totally.
Yes, that's funny. To keep this episode bite sized
and easy to digest. It will keep going next week, so
make sure to subscribe to stay up to date.

(18:40):
Now think about one person that may appreciate learning about
this topic and seeing different perspectives.
The best thing that you can do to support Red to Green is to
share this episode with that oneperson.
It will just take 30 seconds andit will actually support us
greatly to keep doing this research and bringing it out to
you for free. Frank and I would also love to

(19:01):
hear from you. So go ahead, reach out to us,
tell us your opinion, share yourviewpoints, ask your questions.
You can find the link to our profiles in the show notes or
write us by looking us up, Frank, Alexander, Kuna and me,
Marina Schmidt as so often a big.
Special thank you to our Senior Audio Editor Celeste Gupta.

(19:21):
Until next time, let's move the food industry from harmful to
healthy, from polluting to sustainable, from red to green.

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(Old/R2G) 7. SEASON FINAL - BOOK TALKS - What Food Futurist are you? 🔮 Part II of Meals to Come

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