May 24, 2023 • 32 mins
- An old episode from the Red to Green Podcast on Food Tech & Bio Tech. Listen if you are interested in the future of food, but this isn’t Scaling Nerds.
Red to Green was a podcast that investigated how to transition the food industry from harmful to healthy, from polluting to sustainable, from Red to Green. Each season had a different topic
- Season: Cultivated Meat
- Season: Plastic Alternatives
- Season: Food History
- Season: Food Waste
- Season: Biotech in Food
- Season: Book Reviews on the future of food
Why nutrition guidelines have become too much about single nutrients, the struggle of the food pyramid and Frank’s experience with lobbyism.
Avoid saturated fat intake, increase your potassium intake, and Avoid transfats. this Eating more fruits and veggies and less animal products and processed food is better for human health AND the environment.
This episode discusses the food industry's influence on nutrition guidelines. Inspired by a book by Marion Nestle - American molecular biologist, nutritionist, and public health advocate.
“Food Politics: How the Food Industry Influences Nutrition and Health” The book is from 2007 and focuses on the American nutrition system but it is still super relevant.
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Connect with the host, Marina https://www.linkedin.com/in/schmidt-marina/
Connect with the host, Frank https://www.linkedin.com/in/frankkuehne/
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Nanotechnology in Food, Food Safety regulation, food safety Europe, EFSA, European food safety, food regulation, food legislation, food security, food additives, food industry, future of food, food innovation, food technology
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(00:00):
What kind of impact that this book have on?
You can, I can, I can, I can, I can also limit your saturated
fat intake, increase your potassium intake and avoid trans
fats, nutrition science, seems super confusing government
(00:22):
guidelines, like the food pyramid.
Have tried to make good nutrition easy.
However, But this is still not the case for the majority of the
population that may just get confused.
By all of these words that are not directly linked to food
products, is that really a coincidence?
(00:45):
In this episode, we discussed the food industry's influence on
nutrition guidelines. The book underlying our
discussion is by Mario nesler, and American molecular biologist
nutritionist and Public Health. It she rode food politics, how
the food, industry, influencers nutrition and health back in
(01:06):
2007. It's mostly focused on the
American nutrition system but itis so super relevant outside of
America. And outside of 2007 we cover how
nutrition guidelines have becomeway too much about single
nutrients instead of Whole Foods, the struggle of
(01:27):
progressing, the food pyramid And Frank's experience with
lobbyism. I'm joined by my lovely co-host.
Frank crooner chief of Advisory Board of the spice and Herb
producer, wraps gmbh and managing director of the
Adalbert wraps Foundation. The Adalbert wraps Foundation
offers grants for food science, research, that wants to advance
(01:52):
sustainability in the food industry, more on that later.
Let's Jump Right In. Red to Green is the most
in-depth podcast on food sustainability.
And in this season 7 we discuss key takeaways from books on the
food system, I'm your host Marina Schmidt and I'm joined by
my co-host, Frank Keenan? This is Burke had an impact on
(02:18):
my perspective on the food industry.
Yeah, obviously did yes. What kind of impact that had?
I think it's another one of those books which has an
unpleasant choose being part of the food industry and then you
have people looking into the food industry and showing you
the blind spots you might have or the and convenient truth.
(02:38):
You don't want to see or some ofthe game, some people in the
food industry are playing and you're not part of that game.
It is a book for people out of the industry which should be on
the must-read list. How did it change your
perspective? You are very seasoned expert on
the food industry and all the bad influences happening and all
the bank's interest group did a change somehow, you perspective?
(03:01):
Yeah, I mean I have a bit of a personal passion for True Crime
and it's my favorite True Crime related to food and
sustainability. What's And that it's educational
and shocking. This book it clarified for me
(03:23):
that this notion of everything in moderation.
It's so driven by the industry. So since I read it without even
trying, I could tell you, I justcompletely revamp my diet, like,
I'm eating super clean again. So, it was in that way better
than any kind of diet book except maybe how not to die by
(03:45):
Michael. Gregor that had a similar effect
on years ago. You know, here's a quote from
Mario nessler from the book foodPolitics, the basic principles
of good diets are so simple thatI can summarize them in.
Just ten words, eat, less move, more eat lots of fruits and
vegetables for additional clarification of five word
(04:08):
modifier, go easy on junk Foods.When should you be skeptical?
Anytime you see a report that a Google food, beverage supplement
food product or ingredient causes or reduces the risk for
obesity, heart disease, type 2, diabetes or cancer.
It's a good idea to Envision a red warning, flag Flying high in
(04:29):
the air. Food companies, tend to promote
individual nutrients of food that they produce.
It could be actually naturally in the food, but it could also
be added vitamins. I'm holding right now salt in my
hand, and I noticed that on the packaging, they say, as a source
(04:49):
of potassium, this salt is suitable for daily consumption.
You really can get potassium from so many better sources than
Salt and actually Ah, I don't don't even let me know into
that. So that was linked because in
the book Ariane basically said one tactic of the food industry,
(05:10):
is this kind of moderation like instead of giving too much
ground to perhaps the truth or more scientific approach.
They basically said let's meet on the middle ground.
Yeah. She says on page 91 the food
industry uses this framing balance variety and who are the
key to healthful diets? There's no such As good or bad
(05:31):
food. All foods can be part of
healthful diets. It's the total diet that counts
and there's a try somehow still believe that just but it's also
pushed in terms of you should eat meat.
You should eat there. You should otherwise you don't
have this moderate balanced diet.
(05:52):
Personally, I feel if I eat meatvery rarely, it may have some
benefits for me but that's maybelike, Once a month for
something, but she pointed out the diet, she points out that
our diet recommendation is heavily influenced by the food
industry. She actually says that's a
better diet, more plant-based. That's a plant-based for sure,
(06:16):
and low and processed food, and circulator arts and actually.
So that's that iPhone. Super interesting to look at to
the history of diet advice, right?
Because the people feel like diet advice is super Reflecting
but actually it's not like nutrition.
Science is not that conflicted. It's the marketing and the
(06:38):
industry influence and the focuson single nutrients that makes
it so conflicted. So in the 1960s there was a
problem of hunger and malnutrition and then the USDA
could actually say yeah everybody more and everybody was
happy. I could just see this as like
the Golden Age of nutrition advice so just eat whatever
thanks for simple. But then people who were
(07:02):
started, developing chronic disease and research, started
uncovering, the link between diet and heart disease and
cancer and so on. And then in 1977 they
established, the dietary guidelines, that said, reduce
meat, sugar salt and whole milk consumption and overall reduce
your food intake. And that was such an uproar in
(07:24):
the industry. There was caused by.
That these guidelines were adapted to increase salt
allowance. And instead of saying, reduce
consumption of meat, it was replaced with choose Meats,
poultry and fish, which will reduce saturated fat intake,
nice work around. Yeah, but when I read that part,
I was actually wondering from myperspective.
(07:45):
The food industry is more the processing part of an
Agricultural Product towards of consumer products.
And a lot of the story, she's telling a lot of observation
she's doing is coming out of theagricultural industry part.
There's the lobby for milk this Lobby for meat does not a very
strong Lobby, obviously for vegetables, but it seems to be
(08:06):
that they play a really crucial part.
So look, they even don't sound very intimidating obstacle
Lobby. I represent a carrot Lobby.
Okay, okay, yeah, the broccoli about ourselves.
Yeah, that sounds different. If you said I'm from the pig
(08:27):
Lobby, Here's a little shout-outfor an exciting opportunity, the
adelbert wraps Foundation, fundsresearch on sustainable food.
This can be on Old proteins connected to spices and herbs or
soil. And I asked Frank, the hot
question. How much funding research
projects can receive a typical research project starts the
(08:51):
couple of hundred euros, where Bachelor student wants to write
something about? I don't know, insects and food
system, and then it goes up to three year project.
Act with a PhD, a budget of 200,000 Euros, anything in
between. So really depends on what people
bring to our table and we get excited about my thumbnail.
(09:11):
Rule is a year of research at the decent Research Institute
including Human Resources is 60,000 years roughly which is
quite a lot of money and please don't apply it.
Now everybody for 180 Thousand Years support three years.
Yeah I can tell you that we've got a very experienced research
team of the back. And and we're working very
(09:32):
closely with the university. So we assessing the cost you
want to get financed. This is a seriously, great
opportunity for food scientists and startups.
So check out the adelbert wraps Foundation by typing it into
Google or follow the links in the comments to the adult bird
wraps Foundation. Back to the episode.
(09:54):
Yeah, I just find it interestingthat it's just the subtle
influence on the nutrition guideline.
For example, in 79 was the last report by the USDA that
suggested any restriction of meat intake for 16 following
years instead of eat less, they were praising it.
As avoid too much red meat, right?
(10:15):
And that kept going with the food pyramid, Germany has a food
pyramid. I remember when I grew up, it
was grains at the bottom like somehow we were.
I think it was like Baseline grains percentage bread.
They still educate that system in at the kindergarten.
Still part of the fundamental education about nutrition at the
(10:36):
kindergarten. So nowadays, maybe I was
remembered wrongly, maybe the cereal advertisements in.
My childhood warp, my perspective on this, but like
Baseline is drinks. All kinds of water and tea, then
vegetables, then grains and milkand meat some Fats and then
(11:01):
desserts at the top sugar. Okay.
Yeah, sugar sugar is the smallest part sounds, very
reasonable sounds, super reasonable and it's such a good
way of representing that becauseit's very easy to understand.
And that's I think the issue in our debate also like in general
in the industries like you are not allowed to eat any kind of
(11:21):
meat and people push back in that it is somehow about
moderation. In terms of it's not necessary
to be a hardcore vegan for the rest of your Sly if but it's
okay to just cut back as much aspossible.
Here's another quote from the book from the chapter opposing,
the food pyramid, 1991 till 1992.
(11:42):
I quote, the biggest advantage of illustrating dietary advice
in the form of a permanent is that there is no.
Need to remember numbers such asrecommended portions because it
is easy to remember, what food items, you should eat the most
or more than others, but due to lobbying, and the conflicting
interests of the USDA. The permit was not released the
(12:06):
dietary advice of eat less, which was implied in the food.
Pyramid conflicted with agricultural interests of making
profit. This started a discussion about
the corporate Investments of theUSDA and the government, which
brought a lot of public attention to the nutrition Topic
in the end, the permit was published in a modified version.
(12:30):
Aaron saying, at least X servings, instead of Y to Z
servings and quote. So also indirectly gives the
impression that you have to eat all these things, right?
If there is sugar at the top of the pyramid and it says, at
(12:50):
least one or two servings, then you feel like sugar may actually
be necessary for a healthy diet.There's barely any way to get.
Get around it anyway, right? But that perpetuates our belief
system of work, requiring processed oils and sugars.
And for example, dairy products,which a lot of people are
(13:15):
lactose intolerant to including me.
I think this is the core of the issue that we are discussing
here. This is actually skewing the
message of what the permit was supposed to represent.
Yeah, I think what they taught me is the new Asus game is being
(13:36):
played like this kitchen. We just had about moderation, it
lead more so it's not a - it lasts because it's bad for you.
Eat it. How do you say that again eat in
moderation? Are eat in moderation.
Yeah. If you wouldn't being pointed to
that are you wouldn't realize they actually change that
because they wanted to avoid to label red meat as bad for your
(13:57):
health. Yeah, it's crazy.
Yeah. Yeah, it's the same discussion
that I have with my mom. Every time I talk about any kind
of diet now, I eat eggs regular,but I do eat very little Dairy.
You know, I just know, cannot eat less, Terry need calcium and
need calcium. Yes.
And so there was one of the things in the book that I love
(14:19):
when she was pointing out the influence of single nutrient,
Focus, what did you think about that again?
I think that in the United States, the games being played
in a different way and I remember, Neville's was sitting
at the typical Americans are notAmerican Supermarket.
This kind of labeling, these kind of items, I need this
calcium in here and this an extra that and I felt that's not
(14:41):
good nutrition. Narrowing it down to the one
ingredient that is crucial for ahealthy nutrition.
That's nothing. I actually believed in, you can
see that a German supermarkets as well, and specifically for
kids products, they Highline howhealthy it is with added
vitamins. And so, And so on and personally
(15:02):
I was always aware that. It's not the truth.
It's it's more marketing than it's actually a nutritional
recommendation. That's valuable.
Yeah. So her name is Maria Nest but
for this episode we should referto her as Mario on because
otherwise it will become confusing that.
So nesler said Nest a la bete but perhaps it's important to
(15:25):
point out, she's a constant figure in food politics And I
mean, 20 years ago she wrote a book about that and she
continuously has been writing about that, and Publishing about
that and blogging about it showed up and podcasts about it
and such. And that was for me quite
fascinating, that seem to be a person that is very much into
(15:46):
the subject and which gave me confidence.
That she's a very experienced, very seasoned person experts,
and the whole field of food politics and she explains quite
nicely the way. The food industry is influencing
And I was trying to influence the food system or the
policymakers specifically in theUnited States lesson in the
(16:07):
European Union. Yeah.
And we oftentimes talk here about these structural ways in
which the industry shaped and I said I wouldn't say that
corporations are necessarily evil.
I just think oh thank you. I'll watch full statements
really trying to be more diplomatic so Like the ACT evil
(16:33):
come on, who are they? Yeah, we're probably on
conspiracy theory now again, can't know.
That's not true. I mean, looking at the
monsanto's of the world, you know, any kind of big
Corporation has a lot of dirty laundry, right?
(16:53):
Come on. If you dig enough, it's just in
the end, it's just a hodgepodge.Bunch of many people acting in a
system trying to maximize profitprofit shareholder return.
And if there's nothing to properly guide, this Corporation
(17:13):
to sort of box in what they're allowed to do, if it's more
profitable than you dump your chemicals into the river.
Unless there's some kind of Regulation that stops you from
doing so right. And I like that.
She describes like one basic issue is There's overproduction.
So she was saying the US food supply in 2002 already was
(17:38):
nearly enough to feed every person living in the u.s. twice.
It's crazy. And I guess this refers just to,
what is there like in Market? Not what's exported?
Because of course the exporters.Yeah, good job alone, I think
sport. Yeah.
So that leads to an overabundance of food that leads
to an over competition and therefore the the food companies
(18:01):
who all want to grow because that's the basis of our economy.
Every company needs to grow havea really hard time growing.
So what do you do? You make people eat more or also
a really interesting process foods because processed foods
are more profitable than sellingvegetables and basic
ingredients. Hmm.
(18:22):
Can't say anything against that but but I have a question on
that like why all this overproduction?
If that's part that I didn't really get because then Bunnies
are losing so much money on or production and food waste.
Again, I think you'll find similar results if you would
look at the European you yet, but that's for sure.
And it's triggered by subsidizing certain products and
(18:42):
by that taking away the regulation of the free market
because you want to protect yourFarmers or your milk industry,
the backbone of the agriculture system in a certain country.
So you subsidize it. So they produce more.
They're not regulated by the market price anymore.
Or so that it'll bring more products to the consumer Market.
(19:04):
Sorry, was very long statement. But basically, I said, it's
subsidies that are not in the best interest of us.
They are focusing on survival ofthe farmers and not on real
market price and in stuffed and starved the other work that we
also covered at. That was a very good reminder of
the necessity for subsidies to have food system, where Farmers
(19:29):
don't go out. Business every time, some
country decides to floods the global market with palm oil or
soy or whatever. Yeah, that's still One impact to
subsidize have is an overproduction.
And I think the question comes up, if there's double the
amount, people actually able to consume what's happening with
(19:50):
all the food. I think it's being sold as being
exported to other countries which then have.
And then we're back to stuff andstarved have an impact and other
Food Systems. Christina in competition with
Subsidized American so yeah, beans or corn or something like
that. And so they're not growing down
fruit but buying it as an importproduct from the United States.
Yeah. Such a mess.
(20:13):
Yeah, such a big Mass. I think the single nutrients is
another thing that we should revisit.
So basically these nutrition guidelines came out and then
there were all these soft ning'sof statements.
Not decrease your consumption. But at some point, Came.
Let me get a quote, eat more refers to food sources, like
(20:35):
lean meat and eat less. Refers to nutrients like fat,
the food industry can live with euphemistic advice to consume
diets low in saturated fat. It is only when that term gets
translated into food sources like animal fat or eat less meat
that the industry groups are galvanized into action.
(20:59):
Which also explains why it's so complicated.
Like I mean, we are in the food industry, but how should some
kind of accountant from SouthernGermany, or the Midwest know
which nutrients like iron, whichfood?
Like, it's not their specialty. It's not their profession to, to
(21:20):
know about that stuff. And that is also connected to
this over focus on single nutrients.
The food industry started focusing on.
The promotion of single nutrients when they realize that
people are actually becoming interested in nutrition all.
It's just say milk is high in potassium or it's not even super
high like Dairy has potassium, so let's promote it.
(21:43):
So people have more potassium init and their diet.
Yeah, all calcium which is for me, the more common knowledge,
but you choose a great drink milk that I just found it.
So funny because there was a part where she was saying, okay,
there was a higher Alton take inAmerica.
If you have higher salt intake you need more potassium.
So potassium, it's an essential mineral that it's needed by all
(22:06):
tissues in the body. And in the guidelines, the dairy
Lobby was very happy and she haslike a whole explanation of
this, the dairy Lobby actually exclaimed.
We successfully lobbied for the inclusion of more dairy in
people's diets to have more potassium.
But the issue is that a lot of people have their Dairy intake A
(22:28):
result from cheese and take as kind of dare you out there,
right? And cheese has also a lot of
salt. So it's a nice.
Yeah. So if you tell people, even more
Dairy. So you have more potassium
because you're eating too much salt, it's just, you could also
just a Dutch to both. That's right.
You could did. You would have to have sites
(22:50):
without the downside. However, I don't think the
vegetable Lobby is badass enough.
They're not the big business in terms of margins.
And you get more money. I think with dairy, then you get
with an aubergine. Yes.
Yeah, there's a but there is always a processed product.
Yeah. But cheese cream cheese, some
kind of milk products. Yeah.
(23:13):
So what do you think about? You don't Lobby you have a spice
company, why don't you Lobby? Oh, that's a, that's a very
interesting question. I think we do Lobby, obviously
wherever Representatives on the European Union level in Brussels
as a an interest group that tries to point out our issues
with certain things. And so I'm not in denial of
(23:36):
liberalism. I think there's a certain reason
for having lobbyism interest group.
Represent us being at Walters and policymaking because we are
even if you don't like it, sometimes experts on certain
issues. Now, the interest, why we are
experts or why, we want to have certain things changed, might be
not in the interests of the society, like they might be
(23:57):
different though. Shouldn't we look for as a spice
company? Yes, we do have interest
Representatives, interest groupsin Brussels and yes, we do sit
down with policymakers, it's notus like as a company but we pay
people to represent us in these kind of things.
That's the one thing on the other side.
Honestly. We are too small, like our
industry compared to, for example, the flavor industry,
(24:20):
which there's a lot of similarities between spices and
flavors. We are just a tiny little spot
in this whole Diet. And I always was annoyed that
can can give you an example. What I've experienced as a this
kind of interests or not be working.
Spice is a natural product as anagriculture product and like,
pepper bought from Vietnam beingimported here, we grind it or
(24:45):
like we clean it, we grind it and we put it in our seasonings
highly natural product. It's a very simple product.
Yeah. And there's always a fight in
the background about, but flavors are similar to that,
right? Were being produced with the
help of some microorganism, in away, can be position similar to
(25:06):
spices in the food industry on the label.
And that's something for example, we were trying to fight
and said, no, we Are Spice product, like we are natural
products, are we clearly have a differentiation from any kind of
flavor extract, I think that's very reasonable.
That's one of the issues that I have actually, with biotech and
(25:27):
I love cellular. Our culture, as an idea, I am
super into biotechnology. And the more I read about food
politics about the whole system in which science is rigged by
corporate influence. Let's say just the framework the
soil in which these ideas are planted.
(25:50):
I do have to say it becomes moreand more reasonable to me to be
skeptical, just have a healthy amount of skepticism that No,
it's not the natural product. Yeah, it's a flavor but it is
not the spice. And, yeah, it is something
produced by yeast, which is one egg protein, it's not the egg,
(26:13):
the egg we're not going in the Direction Where We have less
High processed foods, the whole system.
The whole society is moving towards a direction where we
going to have even more processed food, Even more single
nutrition put in the product saying or stating they are
(26:33):
healthy. Like, that's that's the general
direction. I don't see a sharp turn or a
different direction, the whole system goes to.
But then I think it's also very healthy to take a step back be
like, okay, so we're working in the system and that's just where
the big train is going. But a question is whether it's
really going over all and in theright direction and whether we
(26:57):
can do anything to change, I don't know and the only answer
is like going back to more WholeFoods like the slow diet
movement again. Honestly speaking True Crime as
I said at the beginning of our recording the book shows some of
the game that is being played that I don't see.
Yes, we are involved in discussions of where there's
(27:19):
policymaking. We are experts in certain areas.
I think it's crucial to bring our expertise of the table.
We need to balance it and there might be another interest and
off another industry. Group that need to be balanced.
So I feel very comfortable with our position in the work we're
doing and I'll give you another example with our foundation.
We do fund research, you won't believe it, but there is even
research in the food science areas, that is not influenced by
(27:43):
political interest, but purely by interest to understand,
something better to establish a system.
How to detect certain toxins in food.
So there's not only the black shape, there's a lot of white
shapes in the food industry in the same time and I would Some
more of a white sheep and this area because without Foundation,
we're funding, these kind of researchers.
(28:04):
And by that publishing articles,that in the foot policymaking
area system being used, now, youhave to believe me.
Just see you like in corporate headquarters and Bavaria bunch
of sheep man, man. Singing typing on your laptops.
I have very vivid imagination. Oh yeah, I've got the same
(28:26):
picture, man. Crying no.
That's good. Absolutely.
I've been reading on the fertilizer history, fertilizer
became super essential at that time, the survival and War
efforts of Germany, of course, Bis f, was intricately connected
to the political system and it makes absolute sense because you
(28:51):
literally like big decisions have to be taken together and
politics was influencing the industry and vice versa.
And to some extent, it is usefulor necessary at times.
And then once it's not, it's hard to unmanned, pull it like
the connections are already made.
They already went on golf courses and then things are just
(29:12):
handled this way they do. And you mentioning this reminds
me of one of my Journeys to China and the discussion was a
European company that is involved in analytics of food,
products laboratory work and they were Consulting The Chinese
government in this area to improve food, safety and food,
quality of the products. And thing we've had day off ten
(29:36):
years ago. But at that time, China was
focusing very similar to the United States in the 60s.
Let's feed the people we meet toavoid the people are starving of
deaths in China. So, the major concern wasn't
pesticides or fungicides insecticides.
Anything as identifying traces in food products that we're not
(29:57):
interested in that. Don't care.
We are at that point interested in having food on the table of
our people. And then came The Next Step,
which they were working on 10 years ago, which is said.
Now, we slowly need to establisha food safety system.
That is looking at certain pesticides and fungicides so
because we don't want to poison our society and I find that.
(30:20):
Now you can have a discussion about more release that good or
bad. But what it shows is, if you are
establishing a system you're notChanging it overnight.
You need to be aware that you need to have kind of
evolutionary steps from one level to the next level.
And that's what I took out of discussions that I never
actually thought about. Like we're living in the
European Union. With a very established food.
(30:42):
Safety systems, pretty safe foods but there are countries
that actually need to take a step.
And the next step in the next step to come to that level where
we are, and there's not a fast track where you just switch on
and you suddenly have hundreds of food analysts and
Laboratories all over. Country making sure the food is
safe, you're being, it's being produced in the country.
(31:03):
The discussion keeps going in the next episode.
Thank you so much for listening and a special thanks to Celeste
Gupta, every season. We have a different topic.
We sometimes also have a different format, so maybe there
are also other seasons of red togreen that are relevant for you.
For example, our last one on biotech and food or season 5,
(31:25):
covering the history of food or season 4.
Where we look at Food, waste covering the entire supply chain
from Farm to fork and later. Frank and I would love to hear
from you. So don't hesitate to reach out,
find us on LinkedIn, Frank, Alexander kuna, kuna written as
(31:45):
K UE n e. So Frank Alexander kuna.
You can find it in the show notes and also me Marina Schmidt
I'm always happy to hear from you and was very glad Glad to
meet so many of our listeners atthe heck Summit over 40 or 50 of
(32:05):
you came up to me during the heck Summit and lows and it made
my month if not part of my ear was.
So glad and it definitely reconnected me with a why we are
doing this to move the food industry from harmful to healthy
from polluting to sustainable from red to Green.
What kind of impact that this book have on?
You can, I can, I can, I can, I can also limit your saturated
fat intake, increase your potassium intake and avoid trans
fats, nutrition science, seems super confusing government
(00:22):
guidelines, like the food pyramid.
Have tried to make good nutrition easy.
However, But this is still not the case for the majority of the
population that may just get confused.
By all of these words that are not directly linked to food
products, is that really a coincidence?
(00:45):
In this episode, we discussed the food industry's influence on
nutrition guidelines. The book underlying our
discussion is by Mario nesler, and American molecular biologist
nutritionist and Public Health. It she rode food politics, how
the food, industry, influencers nutrition and health back in
(01:06):
2007. It's mostly focused on the
American nutrition system but itis so super relevant outside of
America. And outside of 2007 we cover how
nutrition guidelines have becomeway too much about single
nutrients instead of Whole Foods, the struggle of
(01:27):
progressing, the food pyramid And Frank's experience with
lobbyism. I'm joined by my lovely co-host.
Frank crooner chief of Advisory Board of the spice and Herb
producer, wraps gmbh and managing director of the
Adalbert wraps Foundation. The Adalbert wraps Foundation
offers grants for food science, research, that wants to advance
(01:52):
sustainability in the food industry, more on that later.
Let's Jump Right In. Red to Green is the most
in-depth podcast on food sustainability.
And in this season 7 we discuss key takeaways from books on the
food system, I'm your host Marina Schmidt and I'm joined by
my co-host, Frank Keenan? This is Burke had an impact on
(02:18):
my perspective on the food industry.
Yeah, obviously did yes. What kind of impact that had?
I think it's another one of those books which has an
unpleasant choose being part of the food industry and then you
have people looking into the food industry and showing you
the blind spots you might have or the and convenient truth.
(02:38):
You don't want to see or some ofthe game, some people in the
food industry are playing and you're not part of that game.
It is a book for people out of the industry which should be on
the must-read list. How did it change your
perspective? You are very seasoned expert on
the food industry and all the bad influences happening and all
the bank's interest group did a change somehow, you perspective?
(03:01):
Yeah, I mean I have a bit of a personal passion for True Crime
and it's my favorite True Crime related to food and
sustainability. What's And that it's educational
and shocking. This book it clarified for me
(03:23):
that this notion of everything in moderation.
It's so driven by the industry. So since I read it without even
trying, I could tell you, I justcompletely revamp my diet, like,
I'm eating super clean again. So, it was in that way better
than any kind of diet book except maybe how not to die by
(03:45):
Michael. Gregor that had a similar effect
on years ago. You know, here's a quote from
Mario nessler from the book foodPolitics, the basic principles
of good diets are so simple thatI can summarize them in.
Just ten words, eat, less move, more eat lots of fruits and
vegetables for additional clarification of five word
(04:08):
modifier, go easy on junk Foods.When should you be skeptical?
Anytime you see a report that a Google food, beverage supplement
food product or ingredient causes or reduces the risk for
obesity, heart disease, type 2, diabetes or cancer.
It's a good idea to Envision a red warning, flag Flying high in
(04:29):
the air. Food companies, tend to promote
individual nutrients of food that they produce.
It could be actually naturally in the food, but it could also
be added vitamins. I'm holding right now salt in my
hand, and I noticed that on the packaging, they say, as a source
(04:49):
of potassium, this salt is suitable for daily consumption.
You really can get potassium from so many better sources than
Salt and actually Ah, I don't don't even let me know into
that. So that was linked because in
the book Ariane basically said one tactic of the food industry,
(05:10):
is this kind of moderation like instead of giving too much
ground to perhaps the truth or more scientific approach.
They basically said let's meet on the middle ground.
Yeah. She says on page 91 the food
industry uses this framing balance variety and who are the
key to healthful diets? There's no such As good or bad
(05:31):
food. All foods can be part of
healthful diets. It's the total diet that counts
and there's a try somehow still believe that just but it's also
pushed in terms of you should eat meat.
You should eat there. You should otherwise you don't
have this moderate balanced diet.
(05:52):
Personally, I feel if I eat meatvery rarely, it may have some
benefits for me but that's maybelike, Once a month for
something, but she pointed out the diet, she points out that
our diet recommendation is heavily influenced by the food
industry. She actually says that's a
better diet, more plant-based. That's a plant-based for sure,
(06:16):
and low and processed food, and circulator arts and actually.
So that's that iPhone. Super interesting to look at to
the history of diet advice, right?
Because the people feel like diet advice is super Reflecting
but actually it's not like nutrition.
Science is not that conflicted. It's the marketing and the
(06:38):
industry influence and the focuson single nutrients that makes
it so conflicted. So in the 1960s there was a
problem of hunger and malnutrition and then the USDA
could actually say yeah everybody more and everybody was
happy. I could just see this as like
the Golden Age of nutrition advice so just eat whatever
thanks for simple. But then people who were
(07:02):
started, developing chronic disease and research, started
uncovering, the link between diet and heart disease and
cancer and so on. And then in 1977 they
established, the dietary guidelines, that said, reduce
meat, sugar salt and whole milk consumption and overall reduce
your food intake. And that was such an uproar in
(07:24):
the industry. There was caused by.
That these guidelines were adapted to increase salt
allowance. And instead of saying, reduce
consumption of meat, it was replaced with choose Meats,
poultry and fish, which will reduce saturated fat intake,
nice work around. Yeah, but when I read that part,
I was actually wondering from myperspective.
(07:45):
The food industry is more the processing part of an
Agricultural Product towards of consumer products.
And a lot of the story, she's telling a lot of observation
she's doing is coming out of theagricultural industry part.
There's the lobby for milk this Lobby for meat does not a very
strong Lobby, obviously for vegetables, but it seems to be
(08:06):
that they play a really crucial part.
So look, they even don't sound very intimidating obstacle
Lobby. I represent a carrot Lobby.
Okay, okay, yeah, the broccoli about ourselves.
Yeah, that sounds different. If you said I'm from the pig
(08:27):
Lobby, Here's a little shout-outfor an exciting opportunity, the
adelbert wraps Foundation, fundsresearch on sustainable food.
This can be on Old proteins connected to spices and herbs or
soil. And I asked Frank, the hot
question. How much funding research
projects can receive a typical research project starts the
(08:51):
couple of hundred euros, where Bachelor student wants to write
something about? I don't know, insects and food
system, and then it goes up to three year project.
Act with a PhD, a budget of 200,000 Euros, anything in
between. So really depends on what people
bring to our table and we get excited about my thumbnail.
(09:11):
Rule is a year of research at the decent Research Institute
including Human Resources is 60,000 years roughly which is
quite a lot of money and please don't apply it.
Now everybody for 180 Thousand Years support three years.
Yeah I can tell you that we've got a very experienced research
team of the back. And and we're working very
(09:32):
closely with the university. So we assessing the cost you
want to get financed. This is a seriously, great
opportunity for food scientists and startups.
So check out the adelbert wraps Foundation by typing it into
Google or follow the links in the comments to the adult bird
wraps Foundation. Back to the episode.
(09:54):
Yeah, I just find it interestingthat it's just the subtle
influence on the nutrition guideline.
For example, in 79 was the last report by the USDA that
suggested any restriction of meat intake for 16 following
years instead of eat less, they were praising it.
As avoid too much red meat, right?
(10:15):
And that kept going with the food pyramid, Germany has a food
pyramid. I remember when I grew up, it
was grains at the bottom like somehow we were.
I think it was like Baseline grains percentage bread.
They still educate that system in at the kindergarten.
Still part of the fundamental education about nutrition at the
(10:36):
kindergarten. So nowadays, maybe I was
remembered wrongly, maybe the cereal advertisements in.
My childhood warp, my perspective on this, but like
Baseline is drinks. All kinds of water and tea, then
vegetables, then grains and milkand meat some Fats and then
(11:01):
desserts at the top sugar. Okay.
Yeah, sugar sugar is the smallest part sounds, very
reasonable sounds, super reasonable and it's such a good
way of representing that becauseit's very easy to understand.
And that's I think the issue in our debate also like in general
in the industries like you are not allowed to eat any kind of
(11:21):
meat and people push back in that it is somehow about
moderation. In terms of it's not necessary
to be a hardcore vegan for the rest of your Sly if but it's
okay to just cut back as much aspossible.
Here's another quote from the book from the chapter opposing,
the food pyramid, 1991 till 1992.
(11:42):
I quote, the biggest advantage of illustrating dietary advice
in the form of a permanent is that there is no.
Need to remember numbers such asrecommended portions because it
is easy to remember, what food items, you should eat the most
or more than others, but due to lobbying, and the conflicting
interests of the USDA. The permit was not released the
(12:06):
dietary advice of eat less, which was implied in the food.
Pyramid conflicted with agricultural interests of making
profit. This started a discussion about
the corporate Investments of theUSDA and the government, which
brought a lot of public attention to the nutrition Topic
in the end, the permit was published in a modified version.
(12:30):
Aaron saying, at least X servings, instead of Y to Z
servings and quote. So also indirectly gives the
impression that you have to eat all these things, right?
If there is sugar at the top of the pyramid and it says, at
(12:50):
least one or two servings, then you feel like sugar may actually
be necessary for a healthy diet.There's barely any way to get.
Get around it anyway, right? But that perpetuates our belief
system of work, requiring processed oils and sugars.
And for example, dairy products,which a lot of people are
(13:15):
lactose intolerant to including me.
I think this is the core of the issue that we are discussing
here. This is actually skewing the
message of what the permit was supposed to represent.
Yeah, I think what they taught me is the new Asus game is being
(13:36):
played like this kitchen. We just had about moderation, it
lead more so it's not a - it lasts because it's bad for you.
Eat it. How do you say that again eat in
moderation? Are eat in moderation.
Yeah. If you wouldn't being pointed to
that are you wouldn't realize they actually change that
because they wanted to avoid to label red meat as bad for your
(13:57):
health. Yeah, it's crazy.
Yeah. Yeah, it's the same discussion
that I have with my mom. Every time I talk about any kind
of diet now, I eat eggs regular,but I do eat very little Dairy.
You know, I just know, cannot eat less, Terry need calcium and
need calcium. Yes.
And so there was one of the things in the book that I love
(14:19):
when she was pointing out the influence of single nutrient,
Focus, what did you think about that again?
I think that in the United States, the games being played
in a different way and I remember, Neville's was sitting
at the typical Americans are notAmerican Supermarket.
This kind of labeling, these kind of items, I need this
calcium in here and this an extra that and I felt that's not
(14:41):
good nutrition. Narrowing it down to the one
ingredient that is crucial for ahealthy nutrition.
That's nothing. I actually believed in, you can
see that a German supermarkets as well, and specifically for
kids products, they Highline howhealthy it is with added
vitamins. And so, And so on and personally
(15:02):
I was always aware that. It's not the truth.
It's it's more marketing than it's actually a nutritional
recommendation. That's valuable.
Yeah. So her name is Maria Nest but
for this episode we should referto her as Mario on because
otherwise it will become confusing that.
So nesler said Nest a la bete but perhaps it's important to
(15:25):
point out, she's a constant figure in food politics And I
mean, 20 years ago she wrote a book about that and she
continuously has been writing about that, and Publishing about
that and blogging about it showed up and podcasts about it
and such. And that was for me quite
fascinating, that seem to be a person that is very much into
(15:46):
the subject and which gave me confidence.
That she's a very experienced, very seasoned person experts,
and the whole field of food politics and she explains quite
nicely the way. The food industry is influencing
And I was trying to influence the food system or the
policymakers specifically in theUnited States lesson in the
(16:07):
European Union. Yeah.
And we oftentimes talk here about these structural ways in
which the industry shaped and I said I wouldn't say that
corporations are necessarily evil.
I just think oh thank you. I'll watch full statements
really trying to be more diplomatic so Like the ACT evil
(16:33):
come on, who are they? Yeah, we're probably on
conspiracy theory now again, can't know.
That's not true. I mean, looking at the
monsanto's of the world, you know, any kind of big
Corporation has a lot of dirty laundry, right?
(16:53):
Come on. If you dig enough, it's just in
the end, it's just a hodgepodge.Bunch of many people acting in a
system trying to maximize profitprofit shareholder return.
And if there's nothing to properly guide, this Corporation
(17:13):
to sort of box in what they're allowed to do, if it's more
profitable than you dump your chemicals into the river.
Unless there's some kind of Regulation that stops you from
doing so right. And I like that.
She describes like one basic issue is There's overproduction.
So she was saying the US food supply in 2002 already was
(17:38):
nearly enough to feed every person living in the u.s. twice.
It's crazy. And I guess this refers just to,
what is there like in Market? Not what's exported?
Because of course the exporters.Yeah, good job alone, I think
sport. Yeah.
So that leads to an overabundance of food that leads
to an over competition and therefore the the food companies
(18:01):
who all want to grow because that's the basis of our economy.
Every company needs to grow havea really hard time growing.
So what do you do? You make people eat more or also
a really interesting process foods because processed foods
are more profitable than sellingvegetables and basic
ingredients. Hmm.
(18:22):
Can't say anything against that but but I have a question on
that like why all this overproduction?
If that's part that I didn't really get because then Bunnies
are losing so much money on or production and food waste.
Again, I think you'll find similar results if you would
look at the European you yet, but that's for sure.
And it's triggered by subsidizing certain products and
(18:42):
by that taking away the regulation of the free market
because you want to protect yourFarmers or your milk industry,
the backbone of the agriculture system in a certain country.
So you subsidize it. So they produce more.
They're not regulated by the market price anymore.
Or so that it'll bring more products to the consumer Market.
(19:04):
Sorry, was very long statement. But basically, I said, it's
subsidies that are not in the best interest of us.
They are focusing on survival ofthe farmers and not on real
market price and in stuffed and starved the other work that we
also covered at. That was a very good reminder of
the necessity for subsidies to have food system, where Farmers
(19:29):
don't go out. Business every time, some
country decides to floods the global market with palm oil or
soy or whatever. Yeah, that's still One impact to
subsidize have is an overproduction.
And I think the question comes up, if there's double the
amount, people actually able to consume what's happening with
(19:50):
all the food. I think it's being sold as being
exported to other countries which then have.
And then we're back to stuff andstarved have an impact and other
Food Systems. Christina in competition with
Subsidized American so yeah, beans or corn or something like
that. And so they're not growing down
fruit but buying it as an importproduct from the United States.
Yeah. Such a mess.
(20:13):
Yeah, such a big Mass. I think the single nutrients is
another thing that we should revisit.
So basically these nutrition guidelines came out and then
there were all these soft ning'sof statements.
Not decrease your consumption. But at some point, Came.
Let me get a quote, eat more refers to food sources, like
(20:35):
lean meat and eat less. Refers to nutrients like fat,
the food industry can live with euphemistic advice to consume
diets low in saturated fat. It is only when that term gets
translated into food sources like animal fat or eat less meat
that the industry groups are galvanized into action.
(20:59):
Which also explains why it's so complicated.
Like I mean, we are in the food industry, but how should some
kind of accountant from SouthernGermany, or the Midwest know
which nutrients like iron, whichfood?
Like, it's not their specialty. It's not their profession to, to
(21:20):
know about that stuff. And that is also connected to
this over focus on single nutrients.
The food industry started focusing on.
The promotion of single nutrients when they realize that
people are actually becoming interested in nutrition all.
It's just say milk is high in potassium or it's not even super
high like Dairy has potassium, so let's promote it.
(21:43):
So people have more potassium init and their diet.
Yeah, all calcium which is for me, the more common knowledge,
but you choose a great drink milk that I just found it.
So funny because there was a part where she was saying, okay,
there was a higher Alton take inAmerica.
If you have higher salt intake you need more potassium.
So potassium, it's an essential mineral that it's needed by all
(22:06):
tissues in the body. And in the guidelines, the dairy
Lobby was very happy and she haslike a whole explanation of
this, the dairy Lobby actually exclaimed.
We successfully lobbied for the inclusion of more dairy in
people's diets to have more potassium.
But the issue is that a lot of people have their Dairy intake A
(22:28):
result from cheese and take as kind of dare you out there,
right? And cheese has also a lot of
salt. So it's a nice.
Yeah. So if you tell people, even more
Dairy. So you have more potassium
because you're eating too much salt, it's just, you could also
just a Dutch to both. That's right.
You could did. You would have to have sites
(22:50):
without the downside. However, I don't think the
vegetable Lobby is badass enough.
They're not the big business in terms of margins.
And you get more money. I think with dairy, then you get
with an aubergine. Yes.
Yeah, there's a but there is always a processed product.
Yeah. But cheese cream cheese, some
kind of milk products. Yeah.
(23:13):
So what do you think about? You don't Lobby you have a spice
company, why don't you Lobby? Oh, that's a, that's a very
interesting question. I think we do Lobby, obviously
wherever Representatives on the European Union level in Brussels
as a an interest group that tries to point out our issues
with certain things. And so I'm not in denial of
(23:36):
liberalism. I think there's a certain reason
for having lobbyism interest group.
Represent us being at Walters and policymaking because we are
even if you don't like it, sometimes experts on certain
issues. Now, the interest, why we are
experts or why, we want to have certain things changed, might be
not in the interests of the society, like they might be
(23:57):
different though. Shouldn't we look for as a spice
company? Yes, we do have interest
Representatives, interest groupsin Brussels and yes, we do sit
down with policymakers, it's notus like as a company but we pay
people to represent us in these kind of things.
That's the one thing on the other side.
Honestly. We are too small, like our
industry compared to, for example, the flavor industry,
(24:20):
which there's a lot of similarities between spices and
flavors. We are just a tiny little spot
in this whole Diet. And I always was annoyed that
can can give you an example. What I've experienced as a this
kind of interests or not be working.
Spice is a natural product as anagriculture product and like,
pepper bought from Vietnam beingimported here, we grind it or
(24:45):
like we clean it, we grind it and we put it in our seasonings
highly natural product. It's a very simple product.
Yeah. And there's always a fight in
the background about, but flavors are similar to that,
right? Were being produced with the
help of some microorganism, in away, can be position similar to
(25:06):
spices in the food industry on the label.
And that's something for example, we were trying to fight
and said, no, we Are Spice product, like we are natural
products, are we clearly have a differentiation from any kind of
flavor extract, I think that's very reasonable.
That's one of the issues that I have actually, with biotech and
(25:27):
I love cellular. Our culture, as an idea, I am
super into biotechnology. And the more I read about food
politics about the whole system in which science is rigged by
corporate influence. Let's say just the framework the
soil in which these ideas are planted.
(25:50):
I do have to say it becomes moreand more reasonable to me to be
skeptical, just have a healthy amount of skepticism that No,
it's not the natural product. Yeah, it's a flavor but it is
not the spice. And, yeah, it is something
produced by yeast, which is one egg protein, it's not the egg,
(26:13):
the egg we're not going in the Direction Where We have less
High processed foods, the whole system.
The whole society is moving towards a direction where we
going to have even more processed food, Even more single
nutrition put in the product saying or stating they are
(26:33):
healthy. Like, that's that's the general
direction. I don't see a sharp turn or a
different direction, the whole system goes to.
But then I think it's also very healthy to take a step back be
like, okay, so we're working in the system and that's just where
the big train is going. But a question is whether it's
really going over all and in theright direction and whether we
(26:57):
can do anything to change, I don't know and the only answer
is like going back to more WholeFoods like the slow diet
movement again. Honestly speaking True Crime as
I said at the beginning of our recording the book shows some of
the game that is being played that I don't see.
Yes, we are involved in discussions of where there's
(27:19):
policymaking. We are experts in certain areas.
I think it's crucial to bring our expertise of the table.
We need to balance it and there might be another interest and
off another industry. Group that need to be balanced.
So I feel very comfortable with our position in the work we're
doing and I'll give you another example with our foundation.
We do fund research, you won't believe it, but there is even
research in the food science areas, that is not influenced by
(27:43):
political interest, but purely by interest to understand,
something better to establish a system.
How to detect certain toxins in food.
So there's not only the black shape, there's a lot of white
shapes in the food industry in the same time and I would Some
more of a white sheep and this area because without Foundation,
we're funding, these kind of researchers.
(28:04):
And by that publishing articles,that in the foot policymaking
area system being used, now, youhave to believe me.
Just see you like in corporate headquarters and Bavaria bunch
of sheep man, man. Singing typing on your laptops.
I have very vivid imagination. Oh yeah, I've got the same
(28:26):
picture, man. Crying no.
That's good. Absolutely.
I've been reading on the fertilizer history, fertilizer
became super essential at that time, the survival and War
efforts of Germany, of course, Bis f, was intricately connected
to the political system and it makes absolute sense because you
(28:51):
literally like big decisions have to be taken together and
politics was influencing the industry and vice versa.
And to some extent, it is usefulor necessary at times.
And then once it's not, it's hard to unmanned, pull it like
the connections are already made.
They already went on golf courses and then things are just
(29:12):
handled this way they do. And you mentioning this reminds
me of one of my Journeys to China and the discussion was a
European company that is involved in analytics of food,
products laboratory work and they were Consulting The Chinese
government in this area to improve food, safety and food,
quality of the products. And thing we've had day off ten
(29:36):
years ago. But at that time, China was
focusing very similar to the United States in the 60s.
Let's feed the people we meet toavoid the people are starving of
deaths in China. So, the major concern wasn't
pesticides or fungicides insecticides.
Anything as identifying traces in food products that we're not
(29:57):
interested in that. Don't care.
We are at that point interested in having food on the table of
our people. And then came The Next Step,
which they were working on 10 years ago, which is said.
Now, we slowly need to establisha food safety system.
That is looking at certain pesticides and fungicides so
because we don't want to poison our society and I find that.
(30:20):
Now you can have a discussion about more release that good or
bad. But what it shows is, if you are
establishing a system you're notChanging it overnight.
You need to be aware that you need to have kind of
evolutionary steps from one level to the next level.
And that's what I took out of discussions that I never
actually thought about. Like we're living in the
European Union. With a very established food.
(30:42):
Safety systems, pretty safe foods but there are countries
that actually need to take a step.
And the next step in the next step to come to that level where
we are, and there's not a fast track where you just switch on
and you suddenly have hundreds of food analysts and
Laboratories all over. Country making sure the food is
safe, you're being, it's being produced in the country.
(31:03):
The discussion keeps going in the next episode.
Thank you so much for listening and a special thanks to Celeste
Gupta, every season. We have a different topic.
We sometimes also have a different format, so maybe there
are also other seasons of red togreen that are relevant for you.
For example, our last one on biotech and food or season 5,
(31:25):
covering the history of food or season 4.
Where we look at Food, waste covering the entire supply chain
from Farm to fork and later. Frank and I would love to hear
from you. So don't hesitate to reach out,
find us on LinkedIn, Frank, Alexander kuna, kuna written as
(31:45):
K UE n e. So Frank Alexander kuna.
You can find it in the show notes and also me Marina Schmidt
I'm always happy to hear from you and was very glad Glad to
meet so many of our listeners atthe heck Summit over 40 or 50 of
(32:05):
you came up to me during the heck Summit and lows and it made
my month if not part of my ear was.
So glad and it definitely reconnected me with a why we are
doing this to move the food industry from harmful to healthy
from polluting to sustainable from red to Green.
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